How TikTok Hijacked the Future of Music - Nik Nocturnal

How big of an impact do you think Tik Tok has played in shaping the way that modern metal music sounds now? Ooh, uh it it has a pretty big impact because all the young kids growing up right now on Tik Tok and I remember, you know, even when I started YouTube that was like a newer thing. People were discovering music through YouTube. I discovered a lot of like the big bands I listened to growing up through YouTube and that was like unheard of, you know, it was like no matter what it was usually all on the radio or like, I don't know, your brother gave you like a cassette or like a CD. Yep. Um so that was already such a new thing. There was kids discovering music through the internet. I mean MySpace, YouTube. I mean I Facebook to some capacity after that. So Tik Tok was kind of just that next generation of people scrolling and and whatever they might be doing. Doom scrolling or just, you know, I I'm trying to find cooking recipes and then all of a sudden, you know, if they like music in any capacity or any of even if they don't, you know, they hear a sound and they're like, "This is cool." And a lot of things with modern metal is there's a lot of good clip moments usually with modern metal particularly. Um you know, whether it's the breakdown or the elder breakdown or the crazy vocal moment um or even on the guitar side a crazy guitar moment or drum moment, right? There's a lot of musicianship and like unique uh attributes that kind of go into that skill in in terms of like metal as a genre. So like when you're able to just like kind of clip farm some things like that and be like, "Oh, like here's the best part." And you instantly get a payoff versus most people you have to listen to the whole song or like you know, in a minute and a half until the breakdown happens. So Tik Tok I think really enforces that where people will be scrolling and they'll just hear like this crazy noise or breakdown or some dude screaming and doing goblin noises and it'll be like, "Oh, I want more of this." You know, you instantly get hit with the the punchline. It's like watching a horror movie and only getting hit with the jump scare. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's you instantly get kind of intrigued and I think that has really helped push metal into a bigger kind of more just normalized audience. >> Look at the state of "Can You Feel My Heart?" Look at the state of that Bring Me track. Which, if anybody listened to that album when it came out, it was good. It's a good song. It's one of my favorite songs in the album. It's It's It shouldn't be like 10 times better known than the next best known Bring Me track. >> Yeah. And then just because the internet gets a hold of it and can do if if you make a track that is good to have videos laid over the top of. >> Mhm. So, that's my That's what I'm thinking now. How many bands are thinking almost short form first? Like, these are the three segments of this track that work for some reason. And then can we seed a meme early? I know I mean, both of us know that the industry are doing exactly this. Yeah. >> Like, they're seeding Who is that [ __ ] Who is that band? Is it Geese or something? Is that the band? >> Geese. I swear it's I swear it's called I swear it's called Geese. When it comes to writing tracks >> I It seems so Uh when it comes to writing tracks bands have to be curating that sound to go, "This is a bit. This is a bit that everybody's going to clip to go on TikTok." Obviously not everybody, but some non-zero number that think, "Hey, we've got we've got a chance of really blowing this up." Yeah, I I think bands are really aware of it. Um and I'm I think a lot of bands still nowadays are like, you know, let's just let's write our bangers. You know what I mean? Like, it's it's It's also weird cuz there's a different process of writing. Obviously, it's not, "Hey, everyone, let's hang in our garage and figure it out until mom tells us to come up for dinner." You know what I mean? Or whatever or kicks us out of the house. Mhm. You know, it's it's um everyone's on their laptops. Everyone's you know, either with their one producer or with, you know, now AI exists, too, which is its own fun thing. So, it's like the process is also really different. And capturing that very exciting live like start-to-finish song moment with you and your bandmates is not as common in general in songwriting. So, now because it's so segmented and a lot of people even are like, "Okay, well, let's start writing let's start writing the song at the breakdown, you know, because that can let's start writing it at the climactic moment." >> we'll write how the movie ends and then we'll work back from that. >> Yeah, so that's also things that have been happening and with that obviously bands are more you know, attuned with like, "Hey, you know, we've been a band for 10 years making heavy music. All right, well, we've seen other bands, you know, blow up by literally just having one moment that was crazier than the other moments or like one noise uh you know, literally vocal gymnastics that that was it. >> Knocked Loose what they've managed to do through short form as well just by being kind of the most extreme sound that most people have ever heard. Yeah, well, that's a thing with Knocked Loose particularly is I think they they don't care about any of that but because their music is so intense and so well moment like I'm sorry word it's it's paced so well. >> Yeah. They they naturally work in that world. >> what it's supposed to be. Social media is supposed to be something that happens that wasn't meant to fugazi everybody into loving it on social media being loved on social media because it's a a window into something outside of it. >> Exactly. >> And the problem is if you try and make it for social media, you also have to mask over the fact that this isn't supposed to look like it was made for social media cuz that then completely undermines it. Yep, and then also a lot of time unfortunately the song just sucks, you know, like in the end you get like a shitty song and and that's the worst part because sure you'll maybe get some hype and maybe you'll get like a lot of people going like, "What was that?" Um but then you won't get re-playability you won't get that timelessness of a song and then it's again because that becomes more of the focus the focus is let's create a moment of of a of a song instead of let's make a good song. There's a lot more songs then but then there's not a lot more long long-lasting songs and songs that actually people like put even in their playlist other than like, "Well, here's the meme, you know, it's here's the meme song. Oh, he did the thing." Yeah. >> Jared, can you give me can you give me uh the the screen cuz I want to pull up I want to pull up something that I think like I started listening to metal when I was in college, right? So, do you remember that Job for a Cowboy? Yeah. You know exactly the moment that I'm going to pull up, right? What was What was it called? Was it in tune in? Yeah, it was in tune with the girl screaming, right? Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Kids today will never know. Yeah. Well, dude, that's what's happening is there's a revival of this stuff. Bring me Oh, dude, count your blessings. They're they're going to be the fourth one. >> Listen to this, Jared. You will have never heard this before. >> [laughter] >> I wish there was >> So unnecessary. >> Yeah. And then they put a bass spin. Yep. Like a proper electronic bass spin on that drop. I remember we were listening to that in my friend's car. I must have been 17 driving through the mean streets of the northeast of the UK. And he had a he had a proper subwoofer in the boot of his car. You know, like the fancy head unit up front. And I remember that shook my [ __ ] teeth when that thing dropped. I was like, holy [ __ ] Dude, the the bass drops of that that era music were legendary. Unmatched of just these big 808 nonsense. You know what I mean? And that's a lot of they were just having fun, right? They were they were with their producer and the producer could hit the button and that literally was a bass drop or a reverse [laughter] snare. And everyone would just laugh. Do the thing. Do the thing. Yeah, that's that was the do the thing, but it was a fun thing that they know no one would have cared outside of them. And then they cuz they're putting out extreme music, you know, for this time putting out that extreme music like death core for example with Job for like death core wasn't death core. There was no such thing as the word death core. Even even metal core was kind of like not necessarily a term, you know. >> Might have had post hardcore at that time. Yeah. Coming through like Fightstar would have kind of been post hardcorey sounds. >> Yeah, and then there was even bands like that were kind of that weird in the middle where they had post hardcore elements and but they were metal like Underoath was a cool one cuz they they had emo-y moments but >> Melody taking back Sunday meets the heavy aggressive stuff. >> Right. So, it was just a weird era where there wasn't genres. There was more of that freedom I think of just like here's music and people that loved the extreme extreme were a lot of times just like kids that were screwing around and you know, in school and were like that's fun dude. Like can you do the Let's do that again and it's funny cuz now with the resurgence in the movement again of like the 2000s traditional deathcore coming back especially with Bring Me The Horizon like let's do Count Your Blessings again cuz why not if we can do that. >> Yep. Um it's those moments There's so many of those moments in that music that naturally would be the Tik Tok moment which is crazy. >> you know, pretty much everything has sort of come back around again. What was that video of the dude drinking Ocean Spray cranberry juice going down the street and it completely blew up a track that was 40 50 years old. Abba has had a resurgence like that. You know, so many old tracks that have come back around again. Old hip hop that's come back around again. Old pop songs that have come back around again. I haven't seen the same thing happen with metal. I haven't seen people go back to kind of the golden era 2004 to 2010 which would have kind of been very formative for our age and then gone, "Oh my god, dude, have you heard like from the first Bullet For My Valentine EP? Have you heard Have you heard like this demo of that radio track?" >> knows Tears Don't Fall. That's that's It doesn't matter how much death metal you listen to and how much you would you know, say words to people that like that music when you were a young kid in the 2000s, right? Like it's like you you know Tears Don't Fall and all those kind of class. I think it's [snorts] What has happened is a lot of that music is starting to research because during the '10s and the '20s like there's been a lot of cool music, a lot of cool metal and modern metal but there hasn't been as many hits, you know, like there is in the '10s there was you know, a big one in in the metalcore scene everyone Doomsday Architects. That's a massive one. But, the thing is Yeah. Yeah, but with bands like that and when those moments happen, what happens with the music scene tends to be like, "Oh, something's working." And so many bands do that. The amount of Yeah, I talked with Sam from Architects one time and he was just like, "Yeah." He was quite aware how many people ripped off that riff. I was just like, "It is what it is." Um even funny enough, wasn't the intention wasn't metal, but Mick Gordon doing the Doom soundtrack >> Yep. is 10 It's 10 years later now. Oh my god. That is still one of the biggest influences on modern metal. >> they not Did they not get Mick Gordon in to do the mastering for Bring Me's album? >> Yeah, yeah. I'm pretty sure that Jordan got him in to either help with something Maybe it was one of the tracks or at least maybe It was on Post Human. I think he did I'm not sure exactly his like credits, but I think he worked maybe on um on one of the tracks. He might have done mastering I think in some capacity, too. But, it's like >> Well, that just stinks of Jordan. Like, Jordan's very sort of orthogonal approach to looking at stuff. Like, he comes into a band that's very established and goes, "Okay, I'm going to add sort of more complexity, mastering. The sound's going to become wider. Everything's going to become bigger. It's more electronic." But, yeah, dude. I mean, [ __ ] Architects is a great example of this. Somebody who's been around way longer than you think. >> Yes. >> Those [ __ ] are old. I love Sam. I love Yeah, I love I love the boys, but like they're looking well for their age. Yeah, yeah. And for how much touring they've done. I think they're on album nine or 11 now. And each album, if you track it, each album has just been linearly bigger than the last one. Yeah, yeah. >> The line's just kept going up steadily. How many bands that after nine albums or 11 albums or something have that be their biggest one? That's the first number one album or the first time that they charted or the first time that they whatever after doing it for two decades. That's really rare. It's very tricky um for bands to be that consistent. Bring Me's one of them. Architects is one of them. Obviously, the newer bands like Sleep Token and Bad Omens, Spiritbox is >> Dude, I you like Loathe? I don't know if you listen to Loathe at all. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a crazy one where that one dropped. I think it was 2020 or 2021 around around COVID eras and it was like I remember it dropping and people were like, "Oh, this is cool. Like I I like Deftones, Meshuggah, and Loathe's like their spice on it. Like that's cool." And it was like I noticed like 6 months a year later I was like, "Okay, why is this band now big?" Like it's like these these numbers are going crazier and they haven't done dropped anything else, you know? Like they've been touring on it, but as much as they could, but there wasn't much going on and then you start to see, "Oh, like these songs have something very special to them." They had a bit more of that timeless effort where they kind of like >> are like, "What's going on? Is this metal? Is it shoegaze?" Yeah, yeah. It's sort of this >> That was when also the genre fusion thing was like kind of more in its infancy. Not that, you know, bands weren't doing it even in the 2000s. I mean, nu metal as a whole is genre fluidity, right? Of like hip-hop and and mainstream stuff mixed with, you know, aggressive riffs and and groove and and stuff like that, but I think in terms of the modern era where you're able to in the same capacity hear like almost a near you know, 2000 traditional deathcore breakdown, but then hear a chorus where it's like an R&B or like a Deftones-y shoegaze kind of thing. That was a newer concept in the 2020s. >> But to do it in a way that doesn't feel too partitioned. Yeah. >> Cuz, you know, if you go back to what'll be a good example of this? Early A Day to Remember. Yep. Early A Day to Remember, very poppy vocals and Jeremy's working real hard on that and I remember a plot bomb on the panhandle, right? And they got [ __ ] what's his face, that porn star in the music video. Uh I don't remember. Uh it was it was pretty funny. Um they were playing around with the cleanest vocals possible and the heaviest breakdown that they could get using the same tone. And >> it was good, but it did feel quite fragmented and I think if you look at even their music now, but also if you were to look at basically anything except for Caramel, it's very flowy. Yeah. And Architects has gone from I mean they actually with Doomsday inverted it, right? And they went from heavy verse to melodic chorus, which had almost never been heard of. To do to go heavy to light as opposed to light and then the chorus and the breakdown is what's heavy. Yeah. Yeah, that's something where like I think bands have gotten better in the cuz in the 10s there was the whole like rise core era where there was the electronic You chunk chunk yeah. Enter Shikari. Yes, all of that. And a lot of those bands I think did it with a lot of fun intent, you know, they were like, well, we liked that deathcore part of the two you know, 2000s and metalcore. We like the 578 riffs and all of that. But then also like, oh, since, yo, what is this? >> [laughter] >> Like what what is this since, dude? Like, you know, like electronic dance What's the most rave sound that we can get Yeah. from sort of the mid-90s and I'm going to put it over the top. Yeah, and I think a lot of people initially when they started like obviously Attack Attack being a big proponent of that and like early early Asking Alexandria and those bands where it was like, oh, this is like so weird and out there and I think when those bands start to adapt it initially, it is it's obviously fragmented, but it's like you can tell they are having fun with it. So they didn't necessarily care for it to be like this beautiful cohesive from start to finish work. It's just like, no, here we like breakdowns and then we like electronics and we just shoved it. Like whatever. And this bit's the electronics bit and this bit's the breakdown bit and you're going to listen. And you're going to be forced to listen because you want to get to the ending, which is the other breakdown. So like it's it's weird how they wrote stuff back then and some of that song some of those songs have like a lot of longevity. Some of them do not at all and oh my god, you're like, damn, that it was definitely just part of the movement. Um, but I think over time bands start to just get better at blending. And like I said, I think Mick Gordon >> sophisticated, mastering's better, the production's better. It's not just some dude who happens to be okay on Pro Tools or Ableton. >> Yeah, no. That's like piecing this together. So oh no, no, no, we're getting the guy that made the [ __ ] Doom soundtrack in Yeah. >> this. And then as soon as that's done, everybody else can kind of Okay, what what did Mick do to make that sound quite wide? What did you do to lay 75 cents on top of each other? So There's so many cents on guitars. It's it is I joke about it every time because it is just is what it is, but it's it's it's more sound design now. Like the guitar >> So true. obviously in a lot of subgenres of metal like extreme death metal or technical death metal and that kind of stuff. It's very like riff first, you know, like you have one good you know, one or two guitars and they sit there and they make sick ass riffs and like, you know, in audible tuning, you know, not in like drop omega lol tuning. Like it's it's still like drop C or E standard, you know, I know there's a band Sylosis who I don't know if you know them with Josh Josh Middleton. He's super sick. He is a riff master. They've been going since oh my god, 2000 did six? I'm going to people are going to get >> What the [ __ ] happened? I big question. >> Yeah. We'll get back to talking in just one second, but first tell me if this sounds familiar. You train regularly, you eat reasonably well, maybe you even supplement. 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Like I'd consider Underoath in that capacity where like they have such a good old catalog as well as their new stuff is sick where like they're able to embrace their old catalog and I start to see a lot of those bands, especially new metal bands. Oh my god, like the Linkin Parks and the Korn bands. >> MGK's about to release a track with Limp Bizkit? >> Yeah, I did. That's fun, man. Like you know what I mean? It's going to be like >> of fit. >> Hot your starfish [ __ ] hot [laughter] dog, BROTHER. HELL YEAH. LIKE WHATEVER, you know. I don't know how they're going to combo, but like it'll it'll make sense, you know? And that's something When I see stuff like that, I think it's fun. Even if the song ends up being [ __ ] I'm like that's fun. I'm glad Yeah, I'm someone went for it, you know what I mean? Like that's cool. And unfortunately in the metal scene, you not only don't get rewarded for those efforts, you usually get shunned intensely over collaborating too much outside of the genre, you see? Yeah, if like you get shunned if if it's not a feature on your [ __ ] next track or whatever. Yeah, it's it's very tricky. It's There's very rare occasions where like it's like oh hell yeah, like this is sick. Like I There was one I think like Spiritbox did something with like Megan Megan Thee Stallion. That was like that's That's big combo, you know, between those two. And I imagine that the Venn diagram of the people that listen to Spiritbox and Megadeth >> [laughter] >> [ __ ] two circles that have never intersected. >> Dude, it's tricky cuz nowadays I think kids are growing up with like I don't know, maybe they're growing up with their parents like that they grew up in the 2000s and the 90s. So, they listen to all the pop and radio stuff, but then also I don't know dad dad listen to Suicide Silence, you know, or or mom listen to The Acacia Strain, you know, so it's like >> we I used to run nightclubs in the UK and um the venue that I was working at passed through hands a bunch while we were running the Saturday. We had this huge [ __ ] up Saturday that shout out to everyone that came to Voodoo Saturdays in Newcastle. And uh we were doing like 1,800 kids a week in a venue that held a thousand and we were [ __ ] it was like they were pouring out the back doors. The door staff were taking backhanders so that people could queue jump because it was it was the hottest thing for half a decade. It was really cool. It was fun to run. Um it passed hands a second time after about three years four years in and it became a live music venue cuz it had a big stage. It had quite a quite good sound production. Mhm. And they started putting bands on. I was like, "Oh, this this is cool. Like maybe maybe some bands will come through that I really like." Not many bands came through that I liked, but there was one time where I needed to clear out the remnants of the mosh pit after Every Time I Die. Oh. And the same thing after Suicide Silence and the [ __ ] guys came upstairs and the dude I didn't realize I can't remember who it is. One of the guys was um recovering. Yeah. Uh I can't remember who it was, but he came upstairs and all of his bandmates would they're like, "Why what's going on after this?" And I'm like, "Hey, it's a club night and if you look outside there's 500 people waiting like just pouring out of this car park." And I'd go outside like some I had big afro at the time. Some huge [ __ ] big head conductor trying to orchestrate this just chaos this cacophony of [ __ ] And um they're like, "Oh, this sounds sick." And I remember that one of the guys, I think it was Suicide Silence. I hope I hope I'm getting it wrong. I remember that one of the guys was sort of thinking like, "This sounds really good, but like I probably shouldn't be in a nightclub surrounded by 1,500 British 19-year-olds given that I'm recovering." But anyway, it just it caused this sort of crazy crossover between different worlds. But you are right, like people listen to Like you can have a dad that like my age listening to something that the kid the kids are like teaching him about Sleep Token and he's teaching them about Every Time I Die. That's what's happening now is it's it's funny to see with like you mentioned Sleep Token like The Acacia Strain and all these very particular modern metal bands are like they seem to be like going through all the generations. So like the younger kids are finding them on TikTok and then the the parents maybe it's also because they're list their kids are listening to them but they're sick but because they're so accessible in a capacity even though they still have really heavy moments and breakdowns and all this stuff. They're still accessible where like, you know, the parents will be like, "Oh, wow, I really that that's such a good chorus. I love this singing." My my mom does grew up did not, you know, listen to metal. She was lovely, always supportive, but definitely when I was she told me a story one time of like uh very funny. She was like, "Oh my goodness, you know, Nikolai, like uh when when you were growing up there was one point you told me you like, you know, this metal music and I couldn't sleep for a week." Like, you know, cuz she thought I was going to be possessed or something. You know. >> She thought I was I don't know, I was going to be possessed or something. My mom and dad got worried as well about that, too. Yeah, and like I didn't grow up in her time which I get looking back on the history like the satanic panic and all that [ __ ] It's like, "Oh, okay, like I get it." Like the perception of that music was >> It is it was kind of like first wave the way like it What what would it been prior to 2004? Like what what's the genesis of the genre in the '90s and the '80s? It the sound is so different. Like if you put a Boy Brush Red on now and then you play uh Sleep Token afterwards or you play Omens or something you're like, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, I kind of get I kind of get how that's like, you know, it it it's in the same sort of lineage or whatever." But I don't think if you did the same thing 20 years before 2006, 1986, you're not going to get the same sort of lineage that you could track throughout the sound. So, maybe it's literally just that what you listen to when you're a teenager, you get locked into and that's still the best. Like, for me, Taking Back Sunday, that both of their albums from like 2004-2006 are going to be the greatest albums that I've ever heard. But, I'm happy for someone else to come along and try and have their shot. And I'm I'm still in that and because the music's evolved but not changed necessarily, I think I'm still prepared to listen to it. Yeah, it's it's a For me, it's it's like I go back and that stuff I grew up with like Alexisonfire and like Bullet for My Valentine. Alexisonfire needs more love. They're Bro, Dallas Green [ __ ] Happiness Happiness by the Kilowatt. I'm going to Jared, give me the give me the thing. I just want to listen This is the This is going to kill the [ __ ] retention and I do not care. I do not care at all because [ __ ] Happiness by the Kilowatt is just one of the [ __ ] most insane and a bunch of people that I know >> Self-Titled, and Crisis as just a trilogy. What a [ __ ] insane run. I mean, what is this? Oh, turn it up, Jared. Dude, it's good vibes, man. >> Absolute retention killer and I couldn't give a [ __ ] I think also, man, with this time like it was this beautiful transition of like youthful music. Right. Bro. I'm not a drummer. I don't know what I'm doing. So [ __ ] beautiful. And then this like atmospheric So, this is very prescient. Like, super [ __ ] prescient. I heard I saw Dallas Green released an album recently. I haven't kept up with Dallas. I know what I remember in like the 2000s when City and Colour was like massive and everyone in Canada was like, "Oh my god, you're like, you know, this is" cuz that broke through obviously. Just just the metal heads, That was like, oh, this is like mainstream here. Like this is like you're you're you're a huge star here, which is crazy. And I would hear that on the radio all the time. And then I I would always laugh when people would discover he's in Alexis on Fire, cuz that's how I knew him. I was like Yeah, I knew Dallas through Alexis, not the other way around. >> Yes. I was like, oh, this guy's got solo project. Cute. >> Dude, it's that that era of music, I think, is my favorite. I talk about it all the time when I have people kind kind kind of older age, where like we grew up in the late '90s, 2000s, and it's like such a special era where we still went outside, and but we had we had games, and we had the internet. Like it existed, but it wasn't like >> the distribution without the capture. >> Exactly. And it wasn't you're consuming everything you were doing, and that's something that's so beautiful about I got to I got to bring it up. Have you heard the new [ __ ] Saosin song? >> It's sick. Oh my god. It's nostalgic, melodic. >> Saosin was my [ __ ] what? Why can't I find It's just reaction. [ __ ] this. These are your [ __ ] Here's. Dude, [laughter] how I don't want the [ __ ] reaction. I want to see the the actual song, please. Thank you very much. Oh my god, dude. This is sickening. Yeah, and they got Phil now in the band, who was I mean, he was in As I Lay Dying for the longest time. And like you hear it in that riffing, dude. It's just >> [music] >> When I heard this guy's vocals come back in, I was like I'm 19 again. I'm 19 again. I'm 19. I'm at my friend's house. I've got a beer hat on with two straws going into my mouth. I'm playing Guitar Hero. Guess it, dude. That's how I started guitar. I played I started by playing Guitar Hero. That was the first thing ever, my introduction. But that's why that era, dude, like between Guitar Hero, MTV, Tony Hawk Pro Skater, like all these games were influenced so much with music. >> games. Snow oh, Amped. Amped, massive. >> Uh what That was where I learned about >> Uh, who the [ __ ] else was on that soundtrack? Dude, there was even a there was even like the sports games. The sports and then you know the the I didn't play many of them but like the >> Madden. >> Mad- Madden, yeah. Madden, the I don't NBA. Yeah. It was always cuz they wanted energy. They wanted energetic music and right at that moment that was obviously coming from the alternative and metal scene whether it was new metal, whether it was like melodic metalcore, whether it was post-hardcore. >> Bro, [ __ ] Limp Bizkit did the track for a a Mission: Impossible movie. >> Dude, that's massive and they It was funny cuz if you go back then I was pretty young but I can remember it being like, "Oh, new metal. Like this is stupid." You know, like you're not real metalhead. Like you got to listen to old metal. Yeah, I I want proper I want either and that was a crazy time too cuz it was everyone was fighting of like well real metal at that time was still Metallica, you know, Slayer. Like that's that is that is the >> was that was when people had a problem with scene kids. >> Yes. >> Right. When it was like it wasn't cool to be scene but kind of the music's moving in that way and everyone secretly listens to that music and they're like I don't want to have the fringe but I kind of can't not have the fringe. Like well, [ __ ] Bring Me The Horizon is crushing it at the moment so like I I do want to listen to them and they are cool but like everybody kind of wants to hate them a little bit and like I feel like I should be in Lamb of God and Megadeth but there's no melody in there and I don't really get it. I don't really understand what's going on. It was such a tricky time but some of the best music ever and that's why I had a conversation with with I I think it was JT from Erra a few some from from one of the Erra >> [ __ ] love Erra, dude. >> Dude, Erra is so sick. Um, where I I went back and I was kind of like, "Dude, like I don't know if I'm just a boomer now, you know, like I or if it's if it's nostalgia bait." But like I go back and listens to these records, you know, like that I grew up with and I'm like, "This is still the best music I think I've ever heard." You know, what I'm saying? >> up there? What do you go back to when you're listening to stuff that's from that era? Sel- okay, like Self Titled Watch Out or Self Titled and Crisis. That trilogy I if I listen to one I have to listen to the whole trilogy. >> Yeah, yeah, it's like watching the first Lord of the Rings. I'm locked in until the end and he throws the [ __ ] ring in Mordor. Exactly. I'm locked in. Um, Bullet for My Valentine is so classic because it just it embodies that youthful time with again I don't even care about the lyrics or any of that capacity. It's just the feeling the vibes of these aggressive riffs like these these like emo British kids that are like trying to be as metal as they can but they're still like kids at that time. But they blend it in a way that embodies that youthfulness so well. >> Architects EP. That first Archi- Yeah, that is that's when they were mathcore. Yeah. Very different to now. Yeah. Um, I think that Killswitch As Daylight Dies is a big one for me. Um, like oh my goodness All That Remains Fall of Ideals. That was more on the guitar side. >> Try you. A Traitor's Gate with The Curse. Yep. Yep, that's a big one. >> What a [ __ ] era, dude. You know? Cuz what what I've started to do we we do these vlogs for when I'm on tour and I was like I'm always like I'm going to use Thy Art Is Murder. That new track is so [ __ ] amazing. We've used Sleep Token. We've used Omen. We've used a bunch of bands cuz it's cool. We have a playlist for the show that's not a podcast which is just my music which is just like all of his metalcore stuff. But I was thinking I want to do I want to do something a bit different. So the most recent vlog that we just put out was Taking Back Sunday uh, A Decade Under the Influence and The Used. The Used is it. And I was like what that whole era as well to me reintroducing people now to that music cuz it's as far as I can see and maybe this is just what my dad felt like when I was >> Yep. 10 and he was saying listen to Whitesnake and I was like I don't get it, dad. >> Yep. I don't know if I can take someone who listens to who's got used to the production quality of Omen and Sleep Token and introduce them to like Dashboard Confessional or Hawthorne Heights. It's it's a hard it's a hard transition and that and that's where I think it depends some of those records particularly like I would say the transit like obviously Bring Me with the redoing Count your blessings, it's funny. I think that's going to be like they defined a generation with with the They're going to try and redefine a generation with the same song. >> they're going to literally do that because there's already been the movement of like reintroducing 2000 deathcore. Like there's this band Reverend. Psych frame is probably the I would say this band that does it the best where like if you like the cleansing by Suicide Silence, Okay. you'll like that. They they basically took that that kind of sound and they're like, "Okay, let's do it our way in a way that's modern and just ace it and like that's a band that absolutely kills it. Um and there's a few other bands kind of revolved around there where, you know, they have the sna- the snare that sounds like a trash can, you know, like the uh the >> Bonk. Yeah, the the the old school St. Anger snare which deathcore then stole. Um they have the 808s that literally make your speakers actually explode. Not like kind of like, "Oh, it's clipping a little bit." No, like the the intent is that it clips so hard that the rest of the 10 seconds of music following it >> is quiet. >> It is is is quiet because it's ducking and so compressed that it's so funny to listen to. Uh with just nonstop breeze and and all of this. So that's something which is really exciting to see and that's why I do think like a band like Bring Me who, you know, they're like I love that trajectory of we're deathcore, we're the most you know, one of the most extreme things we could be at that time, right? Obviously, there's like death metal and tech death and black metal and all that stuff and all these like extreme extreme genres that are more old school and and less modern with the core, you know, at the back of it. Um and let's go through All right, we did deathcore, we did metalcore, then we did kind of alternative rock metal and then we did literally a pop record with Amo. And then we kind of dabbled a little with new metal as Post Human and then emo core and now let's go back to deathcore, you know, it's like a band that's gotten that big off that trajectory. There's not I don't see another band that says, "Hey, we started deathcore, made a pop record and now we're making deathcore music again." Like that's that does not happen, you know, cuz that's >> Oli is the [ __ ] man, dude. I've been I've been friends with him for maybe like 12 years now. I Jordan joined the band, He had a problem with Ableton. I tweeted him about it. They needed to go out in Newcastle when they were playing a gig. So, I I saw them play Newcastle University and it must have been to 750 people. This was pretty after Jordan joined. So, not that like early in the band's trajectory, but still they were just about play They played the O2 Academy the next time they came back around. Did they drop Sempiternal yet? No, this would have been before that. >> Okay, cuz that that I know that was like the whoa. When was that Sempiternal? Sempiternal, was that before Sempiternal? >> After. After. I was 2015. But so it would have been Count Your Blessings. Then what was the one that they did the dubstep remix of with the girl holding her guts? Uh there there was Count Count Your Blessings. >> Suicide Season. >> Suicide Season and then Then There Is a Hell was after that. >> Right, okay. So, it was around about that time. Anyway, so I go out and I I hang out with the boys and I'm just like kept in touch with them throughout all of the stuff that they've gone through and like during COVID Matt had a [ __ ] shoulder issue. So, I'm on FaceTime to him like trying to explain how to do external rotation. Just little cute things, but to see see guys that you know just be really [ __ ] brave at following We're going to not be constrained by Yeah. what is even popular. What was that They did a low-fi release. They with the all of the songs were like like just file names like stupid file names and stuff. Like we literally don't care. We'll do a collaboration with MGK. Yeah, yeah. >> And Travis Barker. Like it There's no limit at all. I think that's really cool. Yeah, well they're they're one of those bands which everyone you know, not everyone but a lot of people in the modern metal scene are like oh, what they What did they just do? Okay, let's do that. You know, and it's just they kind of did the trendsetting for a long time especially I think after Sempiternal. That was the big one of like okay, wow, every band now has production and synths and the weird eight The only nerdiest guitarists will understand this, but like 850 3/8 8504 chord progressions kind of get, you know, integrated into this stuff now where you hear that like very major sound, but it's dark and frigid and all that [ __ ] And you're like, oh, okay, like thank you bring me, you know what I mean? Again, not the first band to do these things, but the band that made it massive, so all these other bands could come along and be like, oh, you made it work. You cuz like this wasn't supposed to work. >> Yeah, just because you can do it doesn't mean that you put it in a record yeah, because the point isn't to be able to do it. The point is for it to be done and it be popular. Yeah. And it takes someone So I was listening to you know Cody Rhodes is the WWE guy with the blonde hair. >> I don't I don't Okay, so I I I don't watch WWE much, but I was listening to this pod and it was really [ __ ] interesting and he was saying that it doesn't matter who did it first. It matters who did it best and who popularized it. So he was talking about [clears throat] Hulk Hogan and he said Hulk Hogan did the power up thing. So he's kind of losing a fight and then someone hits him and he shakes it off and then they hit him again, he shakes it off, and he hit him again, and then he turns the fight around and he wins. Mhm. Nine wrestlers had done that. Okay, got you. >> Before Hulk Hogan. Also the finger thing like the finger point that was classically owned by Hulk Hogan. He stole that from a ton of other people that had done it before, but they hadn't done it to the point where they'd got saturation and popularity and owned it. Yeah. >> kind of not too dissimilar with this cuz Architects with Doomsday like Mhm. There's a [ __ ] wonderful line I love which is originality is just undetected plagiarism. Oh, dude, nothing is new anymore. Yeah, it's technically >> will say himself. He's oh well again, dude, you know, I was listening to this thing or that I mean listen to Jordan Fish like Jordan's [ __ ] inspo. There's so much of the [ __ ] that he did is like coming from weird video games and that watching cyberpunk stuff and all you know, real crazy out there stuff. You go, okay, so it wasn't original, but you were the first one to do that thing well, popularly Mhm. in this genre. And once that's done, like how many people are trying to recreate the come metal like rap That should never have been a thing. Come metal, I think come metal is a perfect descriptor for what Bad Omens and and Tesseract Baddiecore. What is it? Bad eco? It's more sophisticated. It's it's it's it's yeah, there you go. >> What's the sound of this? >> It's that's It's it's vibes. Yeah. It's night drive vibes, dude. Correct. >> Yeah, there you go. With the windows down and the easy breeze. Yeah, you're just like chilling. Um but Yeah, that one is Oh. It it's it Nothing is new any And that's the crazy thing with music cuz I think a lot of bands try to you know I think of accept that to a capacity and you know, you you can't do a new chord progression. An AB beer? Like a non-alcoholic beer? Cheers, dude. >> All right, cheers, dude. Um [snorts] Like you can't you can't do a new chord progression. It's I don't think you physically can. I think in terms of music, um every single one has ever been done is done. You know what I mean? In terms of a sequence of notes, you can't technically create a new sequence It's they've all been done in the history of music. Can you do them at a specific sequence in a specific key in a specific BPM with a specific chord progression under with a specific groove under that? These are the differentiators that make it more unique. >> This episode is brought to you by Gymshark. I have tried pretty much every brand of gymwear over the years. Most of it looks good on the website, but very little of it survives real-world training, which is why I'm such a massive fan of Gymshark. Their hybrid shorts, especially in onyx gray and navy, are basically my uniform in the gym at this point. They move properly, they don't bunch, they're super lightweight, you can wash and dry them in an afternoon. The Geo seamless t-shirt is what I train in almost every single session. Breathes properly, holds its shape after you wash it. Everything that Gymshark makes is lightweight and sweat-wicking and easy to wash and dries fast. And if you're still on the fence, they offer a 30-day free return, so you can buy it and try it for 29 days. If you don't like it, just send it back. Plus, they ship internationally. And right now, you can get 10% off everything sitewide by going to the link in the description below or heading to gym.sh/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom10 at checkout. That's gym.sh/modernwisdom and modernwisdom10 at checkout. Does that not mean then if that's the case, would that not suggest that vocals, lyrics, um the kind of things that um most front and center, the the songwriting and the lyrics should be the biggest differentiator that people still have now. Is that not the case? I don't I mean, it could be, but also I and this is way out of my realm of understanding, you know, I I would probably have to lean more to like understanding human psychology more cuz a lot of the lyrics, particularly in metal too, are very, you know, like damn, [ __ ] sucks, you know, and like why does [ __ ] suck? >> Life's Life's hard and I wish it wasn't and I'm alone, but I maybe there's a bit of hope, but there's probably not. >> Yeah, or and I mean or telling stories, right? Which I mean, then that's that probably takes more of a history degree again than my dumb ass on the internet figuring that out of like understanding like I'm sure in history stories have been retold and retold in different ways and and new masks of it, you know what I mean? Where that's why it's like yes and no when it comes to lyrics cuz I think they're still running into that same problem. You can only use so many words um but you can also saturate words like the undertow. My god, bands, stop using that [ __ ] word, right? Like, you know, I'm stuck in the undertow. Like there is or callouts and [ __ ] like this where like there's so many cliches >> cliche lines, exactly that like yeah, we can avoid that, but in terms of thematically, you know, or using the particular words to describe a feeling and emotion that's the theme of the song. I mean, that's something that's so tricky and hard to find again uniquely. Um but I that's why because there's so many elements of a song, right? There's there's lyrics, there's the there's the vocals, there's the types of cadence, you know, you can have a a song that everything is the same um in terms of the lyrics, the concept, the theme, uh the the the groove, the BPM, the melodies, and you can have one do a deathcore version and one to a a country version, You know what I mean? And you technically that would be a cover because they're so similar, right? But at the same time, to a listener, a lot of people would not even know they're the same song. >> Sonically, they don't sound anything like >> Exactly, right? Even though conceptually on paper, you have all the things written down. And that's why I see [clears throat] things happening in the scene sometimes of like this band copied this band, this band copied this band. I'm like Yeah, you know, but like under what factors, you know what I mean? Like there's so many elements and variables. Like what what defines that, you know? I'm not I'm not making the copyright laws, that's for sure. That I my YouTube channel says I'm not, you know what I mean, with how many claims I get. So, it's like in terms of making music and how similar it is to something else and it being considered like new. At what point? Like if the BP you know, if if the melody is the same and the lyrics are almost are like 90% I don't know, based on [ __ ] chat GPT, the same or or this. But like you're three BPM faster, like is this a You know what I mean? Like is this >> enough is different enough? >> Yeah, and that's something that's really tricky. And when we start to get into like the the grassroots of that, that's when it's just like >> Well, Ed Sheeran had that big pull up, right? A few years ago where he's like, "Look, this I can play every big hit from the last 50 years on these few chords." >> Yes. And yeah, I don't know. I haven't seen much at least coming out of metalcore. I haven't seen much by the way of beef from this band took from this band took from this band. I think maybe because it's so small, the the scene is sufficiently small that the likelihood of you encountering them at Rockville or at [ __ ] download or something is there's not enough bands to go around, you know? So, it's like uh podcast partners with what we do. If you get to a certain level, there's only a handful of partners that have the money to be able to sponsor shows of a certain size. That means that you can't piss them off, right? You can't because word either word will get around and or you need them at some point. I'm going to be the equivalent of a supporting band or headlining with a part I'm going to be at some [ __ ] conference somewhere or whatever. Like need someone to loop me in with the guy from Eight Sleep or the dude that does [ __ ] BetterHelp or whatever. Like it's the same thing. Yeah, it's the scene is very big and small at the same time. And that's going for me again a person like I'm not in a touring band. I'm not part of that specific segment of that world even though I work with all the bands. I I you know, in terms of the label industry side like I work with them in the back end in terms of like hey, you know, at least back then they would be like hey, we got this coming out. You know, so it's very in tune always with like PR and and like them being like hey, we got these releases coming up. Hey, do you want this person on you on your on your show to shoot the [ __ ] or you know, you mean do you want to do some kind of content and whatnot. Um So that's my knowledge base of that, but in terms of even just that circle and talking to people like everyone kind of knows everybody. So if you're a dick, it's really obvious. Just don't be a dick to people and then you'll usually be fine. And obviously part of that is you trying not to copy paste someone's song session cuz it can be very like super obvious. The other way the other way through that is to almost make being a dick your brand, which is what Ronnie Radke does. There there's a there's a few people that I think have done that so successfully and mad kudos it's they you know, they do it to a point where it's like damn like to be consistent at doing that is like exhausting. So if you can pull that off, holy [ __ ] >> do you know what it is? And I think he's [ __ ] fascinating. Ronnie's going to come on the show soon, which is going to be cool. Like it's basically like being the heel in wrestling a little bit. Like the heel can have the the belt. He can be the best in the world at a thing, but also is kind of happy to be the person What's your job? Oh, my job is to piss everyone off. Like my job is to give zero [ __ ] and to just piss everybody off. Yeah, that's a a few bands I think I think particularly during like the MySpace like Warped Tour days, that was like a thing to do. Like let's go try like be the extreme band. Like let's go piss people off. Like [ __ ] you we're rockstars, you know what I mean? And >> ever seen the video of when uh Bring Me did Was it the Brit Awards and Ollie stood on Coldplay Chris Martin's table and kicked his like champagne off and stuff? And that was huge beef. And I remember thinking at the time, never in my life did I assume that I would be seeing Ollie Sykes and Chris [ __ ] Martin from Coldplay >> Yeah. having beef with each other. Every Yeah, [clears throat] a lot of people know each And that's why it's like I think it is somewhat segmented in terms of like okay, you're you're a metal band or you're a pop artist. But like a lot of it there's so much overlap. I don't I mean a lot of people have the same I mean you know, labels to a capacity. The metal ones are usually like on the smaller ones you know, the subsets. But like uh you know, PR a lot of them have similar booking agents and stuff like that. So like there's overlap always and and it's and a lot of also the the top 50 the metal the you know, even country artists are like their metal heads. They they grew up listening to >> that bands are made up of metal heads. >> Yes, all the touring musicians are all scene kids and that's really funny. I I had um I chatted with Johnny from Bill Murray. Uh and uh I was cuz I was like how you know, I've never been in Nashville. Like how was it in Nashville? I know that's the country place but also a lot of metal heads are there and he and he was also mentioning like dude yeah, like everyone's a metal head. Like even if they like country doesn't matter this or that like everyone just is they're hardcore dudes. They're from the scene. They're scene kids. Like whatever it might be. They all love that music which is really cool. It's it's cool to see because again if you were to listen to music you're like that's that is different than Breathe and >> in the way like technically proficient which I think that lineage allows you to then become really successful. Like if you can play good metal, you can probably end up playing most other things cuz most of the things are going to be not derivative but at least like less complex than most of them. >> especially nowadays because because modern metal is so focused on production and and songwriting I guess to a capacity. Depending on which subset, cuz there's a subset of obviously, like I said, death metal, tech death, all that stuff. That's That's still death metal. That's riff first, you know, figure everything else out. Like the drummer's going 500 bpm or however [ __ ] fast he wants to go on the double kicks and and they're figuring that out, right? Um and it's super sick and it creates this very extreme, brutal, intense music. Um which doesn't have necessarily a lot of production, you know, there's there's not a synth layer in the background. And that's like, "Whoa, what?" You know, meanwhile now with with that particular modern metal bands, it's like you record guitar and you have the MIDI ready to put the synths to it. Like there's no question if you're going to have synths layered in. The producer's going to just do it for you if you didn't think of it. Anyways, and then there's going to be usually quad tracks. There's going to be four guitar tracks. Just deal with it, you know what I mean? The drums, you want those raw drums, buddy? Okay, sure. Go record the raw drums. We'll Yeah, it's all raw, okay. You know, we'll figure it out later. Meanwhile, you know, the producer was like, "Yeah, okay, obviously >> molesting everything. [laughter] Yeah, because like >> Can you explain to me I I heard this story about uh the drummer from Slipknot just got relatively new drummer to Slipknot, which is kind of giving him a fresh breeze of light. What's the story there? Cuz I only know half of it. >> Um I don't know the back end story. I just know they I mean, obviously they had Joey way back when, legendary, and then they had Jay for quite some time, and then I don't know, a falling out or something. It's It's the usual PR stuff of like Yeah, creative differences. >> Yeah, man, and that's why when you see that you're just like, "Okay." >> [laughter] >> You know, and you kind of move along. And I don't know any of those guys personally, so that's why I just just And same thing, most fans just go, "Oh, you know, that sucks." Um and then they got Eloy, who was super sick. He was in Sepultura, if I'm not mistaken. And um yeah, he's he's a badass drummer, and then you know, people are stoked on that. And I don't think they've released music with him yet or anything. >> some of the videos of it happening live, though. Yeah, he's he's a beast. Some of the most insane [ __ ] He's a beast and that's why like that music back then it's so aggressive and primal that do that 2000's era cuz there was so much happening, you know, we're talking obviously about like the the emo stuff and then the metalcore stuff but that new metal phase that broke through the barrier I think bigger than any of the other kind of metal bands at that time. Like the Slipknot's and Linkin Park's, the System of a Down's. You know, the fact that kids grow up now and they're like I don't know 10 or whatever and and you see like my favorite song is Chop Suey. It's like first of all, you're probably too young to for that [laughter] to be your favorite song, you know, like the for the the the lyrical context of that. Um but number two, how the [ __ ] did you find that song because I found that when I was 10. You know what I mean? Like that's crazy. >> Let's watch some of those videos Jared. Can I have the screen? Oh, the nostalgia. Let's go ahead. >> I need to I want to watch some of the live stuff of the new Slipknot. This is 8 months ago. This is about right. >> Yeah. He's also built like an absolute [ __ ] brick [ __ ] Yeah, I think for extreme drumming like that's that should be a requirement nowadays. It's such a physical thing. You know, guitarists we sit there you [ __ ] strum a chord you you strum breakdown. You can be as weenie as you want. >> be as weenie as you want. Exactly. But like drums, I mean, unless it's all backtrack you can't be weenie. You got some beef to it. Yeah, that's primal. That's Imagine taking a drumstick to the face from that guy then. Holy [ __ ] Dude, if only I could be that snare. I know. >> [laughter] >> No, thank you. >> [music] >> But even with this that's some sequencing going on down the bottom end like some pads some something here. >> Yeah, I'd imagine I mean most bands probably they have using the laptop because with the set or whatever or But there's something maybe like drum pads whatever this is right in front of us. Yeah. Yeah, just freakish dude. And it's I know, it's just cool that you've got someone who uh has kind of brought new eyes to a band that's been around for so long. >> Yeah, dude. Slipknot's old. They are. It's Is it 30 years? 90 No, okay, '99 was self-titled. I don't know when the EP was. Eat Meat Made Feed Repeat, whatever the [ __ ] the EP was called um with the with the old the first singer um They've been a band for like 30 years. That is psycho. That's like How long's Killswitch been around? Oh my goodness. I don't know when they technically cuz it's always weird the album is not when the bands usually start. Usually they grind for 5 years in local shows and like their parents' garage. So like when they form Alive in Just Breathing was 2000 Oh my god, two one either two either one, two, three, or four. No, End of Heartache was 2000 four. As Daylight Dies was 2006. I think it was 2002, around there. Um old old and they would they're consistent. They've been going at it and they're timeless. When you make bangers like that, it's something that's so special. Kanye West, dude. Kanye West, [laughter] if you make that if you make bangers, you can keep on doing it. You can keep on doing it. Metal's sort of becoming increasingly self-aware and ironic, I think, especially in its positioning, the way that sort of people put it across. What do you Why do you think that's happening? What's that say about the audience, the industry, the music? Um I think it has to do with a lot things we actually talked about so far. It's like There's a lot of nostalgia built in with the new modern age and people going back and being like excited about that. So when they also look back, I think that's part of the irony and somewhat of the joke because back then a lot of the metal was so like random and like kids in their garage like Job for a Cowboy or like especially during the MySpace days when like the song titles were like "Tell Jimmy to get the [ __ ] out of the garage" or like whatever it is. You know what I mean? Like it's it's they're just such random names back then where that for that you know, these bands weren't thinking I think a lot of these bands also were like, well, we're not going to be a big band. You know, people don't have to remember these names. They don't have to remember these these breakdown melodies, these these sound clips, these you know, vocal moments like who's you know, we're going to be playing to our few fans that like us and we're happy with that. So I think part of that modern day of embracing that is revisiting though that era because it was so raw like that and kind of making the joke about it again in in a in a very odd way. >> parody yourself. >> You kind of parodying yourself, but then also how the industry has evolved in a way where there's a lot of particular ways to do modern music. Even though it's funny enough it's more genre fluid than ever I would say in terms of like again, you listen to like Sleep Token and they have a black metal part with like a pop song. Like that's that's cool. That's crazy. But it still comes down to you got to have good song writing or like no one's going to care after the first initial like Tik Tok that goes >> Oh, that's interesting. That's different. >> Yeah, oh that's that's cool. Okay, like not if you don't add it to the playlist, no one it's gone, right? Like it's it's in the abyss and then it's like, okay. 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Right now, get up to 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below or heading to athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout. Near beer terms and conditions apply. Athletic Brewing Company fit for all times. It is interesting if you look at like Tokens a good example of this. The Summoning is their most played track. >> Oh yeah, I remember that moment. But that breaking through that what makes a song, especially a metal song, break through to that kind of a level versus this is a [ __ ] awesome song. Like Caramel is one of the most catchy songs that I've ever heard. But it's not getting it doesn't look like it's going to get to the level of The Summoning. Okay, what what is that? Is it the distribution? Is it the repeat listenability? Is it constantly bringing in new people or is it just rinsing the living [ __ ] out of the playlist of the ones that look You know what I mean? I always look at the top songs of a band and think huh Why that one? Why not that one? I think cuz I was a I was around for that moment particularly because I felt you know, I listened to Sleep Token when they were the underground band cuz this always happens with these bands. They're the underground band that you see in like Reddit you know, subreddits of like do you guys hear this band or see this band live? They used to play to like 50 people. They're really sick. You know, I really like this record. You know what I mean? Like oh that's cool. You listen to like the this the offering. You heard the offering dude? This is so cool and like different. It's got piano and like you know, you can tell like it's it's kind of pop mixed with like Meshuggah and [ __ ] and like that's sick, right? And then there reach reaches this point and I see this has happened with multiple of these modern metal bands. Um where they have a really good catalog and that's the smartest thing I've seen old bands do with up to that point. Like they just they're consistent, make bangers. Don't don't just chase a trend or do this. Like for every song is a banger. Even though there's not that many people listening, those people are very very happy, right? So, these bands nowadays making a good catalog of bangers, grinding, and then there's a moment. And then that moment has to coincide usually with another huge banger, one of their best bangers. So, that's a band where they were having the momentum for when I saw again. I didn't get to into them when they did the EP, but I started to get into them when they did like the the offering, that album, and then the album after that. Um something about tomb is where you [ __ ] the long >> will be coming your tomb. Thank you. Yeah. Um this place will be coming your tomb. Um and then even Alkaline. And I actually I actually thought they were about to explode with that song cuz I heard that I was like This This got everything. >> everything. This is This is sick. Like, okay, do the thing. Yeah, cuz the offering I already saw all that stuff happening, and then Alkaline I was like, "Oh, cool." But, there wasn't a moment around it. It was just oh, another really sick banger, and now this band's a little bit more hype, kind of like grinding their I'm going to use, you know, nerdy ass gaming terms, like your ELO, like, you know, your ranking like really slowly but consistently. You're not losing any matches, but the rate at which you're gaining points and MMR is kind of like at a particular pace. You're not going to all of a sudden shoot up unless something happens. So, they had all this built-up hype with the underground, I think, kind of like being like, "This is great." And that's where the band was, you know, underground. And then they dropped The Summoning, and because it had a moment in it, and the song was really good, and the band had this massive catalog, and then the internet took notice. It was just a It was the perfect storm. >> do you think that can be engineered? I think it can be pretty engineered. It's something where I don't think you can engineer making the bangers part of it, right? That's be good. Don't don't [ __ ] suck. And that's something a lot of bands, I think, are starting to take a lot more seriously, um and not just be like, "Well, let's just taste chase the trend and whatever works with the gimmicks, right?" Make a banger. And that's a I I that. That's number one, right? That you can engineer. Make a banger, don't suck, right? The other stuff I think you can engineer to a point, especially in modern day um with the internet. You know, you Again, I haven't seen it happen myself. >> the eyes of someone that [ __ ] knows way too much. >> It's This is the thing. I I know enough not to a point of talking with a bunch of people and being and someone being like, "Yeah, I did this. Yeah, we caused this exact way." But in terms of seeing it from the sidelines of a music listener and understanding it and also understanding the industry and how social media works as a content creator. Right? >> How How come so many of these different accounts seeded that rumor about that record coming out at that time on different I wonder if >> That's that Again, where I don't actually I have zero back-end knowledge of that, but you see that and you're like I see what you're doing. Like Like that's cool. But it's I And But this is before it it was cool to do maybe something like that, too, right? Like it's Now it's like, you know, Reddit is something taken seriously by the scene, you know? Like I'm not surprised if people post Reddit posts of their brand new band and it's like the label actually getting a new account or something where they're posting a bunch of or clip farming with that. You know what I mean? And trying to find clips that make that big where it's just some random clip guy they found in, you know, Europe that they paid like 20 20 bucks. >> an army of Vietnamese re-purposers. >> Yes, right? And that's something where I That's going to happen more and more. That happens a lot in e-content. >> Jared, give me the screen. I want to show you Keep going. I want to show you this Geese thing while you're talking about it. >> Oh, dude, I I I forgot about the quack, dude. Let's go. >> I know. Have you heard of Geese? No, I I hadn't, but I I'd heard that there was a band called Geese and I thought, "Oh, that's It's Knocked Loose, isn't it? Knocked Loose, dude. >> Knocked Loose, dude. You could imagine that. I I want to use um whatever that AI thing is to do >> Tetsuo, yeah. Take Tetsuo. Take the band Knocked Loose Yeah. and replace all of the members with geese >> Geese. and tell me what that sounds like. >> See, that's what AI should have been used for. I I That's that that is the best use of it, for fun. But it's it has changed. Okay. The Sunfear around the band Geese was actually a psyop. TLDR, a tech company that has learned how to engineer the algorithm >> The the algorithm created the momentum that made Geese go viral. Record industry has always done things like this, and everything on the internet is fake. This was it. So, it's this Wired article. The Brooklyn band Geese was labeled as an industry plant by by those who questioned its sudden ubiquity. Maybe it was. Brooklyn indie rockers Geese shot to the heights of rock and roll fame in the end of 2025. Released in late September, dominated the top 10 lists. Explosion on the scene seemingly out of nowhere led to inevitable backlash. Haters called them a psyop. Some questioned the seemingly sudden rise to stardom, calling them an industry plant. Others, while acknowledging their their talent, attributed their fame to savvy marketing. The band blows up. In late March, the co-founders of the digital marketing company Chaotic Good Projects, who provide products Instagram, digital experiments, and musical mayhem, appeared on the Billboard's on the Record podcast in the episode South by Southwest, you explained how viral marketing methods work. While the firm creates networks of social media pages on TikTok and uses them to drive the band's music into the recommendation algorithm. Songs are dropped into the backgrounds of videos, live clips are shared, sometimes burner accounts comments, and whole ecosystems of interactions can be fabricated out of digital cloth, stoking and sometimes completely manufacturing discourse around an artist. These ginned-up interactions push the songs and the discussion around them higher up platforms algorithm rankings. Social media platforms are increasingly where real fans discover new music. We can drive impressions on anything at this point, Spellman had told Billboard. We know how to go viral. We have thousands of pages. Spellman has dubbed the process trend simulation. The campaigns themselves are referred to by Chaotic Good as narrative or UGC theme. So, confirmed the engineered campaigns for both Geese and Cameron Winter. I don't know who that is. We helped distribute clips of them performing and doing some interviews on TikTok. He said via email, "Understand industry plant discourse is inevitable. We've had the pleasure of being Geese fans since 2021 pro Yeah, dude. I mean, this kind of marketing seems to be what it takes to cut through the algorithmic noise. But the problem with this is that you end up with kind of a race to the bottom. It gamifies it. >> If no matter how good the track is, I can't win unless I >> do that. That now becomes not a performance enhancer or even a cheeky kind of exploit, it becomes the minimum level of marketing in order for me to get something good out of my track. Yeah, it's I think the scene like that there's such a gamification of it because again, the metal scene's a little behind usually the content scene. Like the the more mainstream scene like that stuff happens in the you know, in YouTube and like the content creator scene for a while, you know, like that's something where it's like, "Okay, that's that's not necessarily new." Like people using clips or there's like people doing burner accounts and stuff like that and promoting it. Like, "Okay, like that that's that's that's the game, you know, you see these people and these Twitch streamers with like 20,000 live concurrent and you're like, "Who are you? What is What is What the guy on the CEO of Cake said pretty much every big creator is view botting. You saw that clip a little while ago. Yeah, that's uh I mean, I did not know how prevalent that was until now it's like a thing to talk about and it's like, "Oh shit." You know what I mean? Um but like yeah, obviously in like the content scene that's something it's like, "All right, dude." I don't know. I grew up in like good old 2014 YouTube where like PewDiePie, you know, was doing dumb [ __ ] in Sweden and stuff and like watching that and getting inspired by like the OGs. It's like the now all of the stuff has been gamified so much because there's so much weight like monetization um ways and there's so many like just reasons that these bands, you know, want to figure it out. Break through the mold. Right, incentives. And with stuff like that, again, I I haven't noticed That's the That's so funny the band's name is Geese. That's one where it's like Yeah, that that can happen. You know what I mean? Where if a label again a label just like knows what they're doing in a particular way and they just want to like push it like >> Look, I I can figure it out. >> adore them. They're probably my favorite band of the last 12 or 18 months. But President had an unusually large launch off the back of future history and riding the anonymous pseudonymous mask sleep token thing in a not too dissimilar sound that's really of the moment and it's [ __ ] great. And their songs are straight bangers. Right, I don't know I haven't listened to not Geese. I [laughter] don't think I don't think it's a band. >> Yeah, locked Geese. I haven't listened to With President though, that's the thing. And and they're like the epitome of you go on Twitter now and you're like you'll you'll see a new President song and you'll see people say industry plant. And that's where it's tricky because stuff like the Geese thing may be happening and it's like, oh, okay, [ __ ] Like I guess that's that's going if if that's what happened, right? But a band like President, if you bring it down, okay, it's a guy who was in a other really big band. Lots of other for a long time. You know, they it's I use gaming references a decent amount to kind of explain stuff. It's like, okay, so he has he has max characters. Maybe they don't have the best gear and he rolled an alt and knew exactly how to get all the gear. >> Yeah. Okay. Like I when I see that, I'm like, the guy they know what they're doing. You know what I mean? It's Well, think about like exactly what we're talking about here. I I don't know how good Geese's music is. It's still strange referring to this Geese. Yeah. I don't know how good their music is, but that was their fourth album. And like this one is the one that said you're an industry plant. You go, well, is it that or is it just really [ __ ] good gorilla marketing on a ground floor? What's the difference between doing that and a flyer campaign? Where you're giving out an interesting flyer or fake $1 bills that have got the band's QR code on them or something that you can redeem. Like you you know, a classic old-school marketing campaign. That just seems like People are always going to feel slightly uncertain and and a bit icky about somebody getting something that they don't feel is deserved. >> Yeah, I I think in the metal scene it's particularly tricky because the metal metal fans are hardcore. Like, they're they support, I think, harder than majority of any other scenes. And that's amazing. That's really cool to see in a scene where like, if you're a metal fan of a band smaller, most of the time, if they're in your town, you will go take a trip to the show. You will go buy merch. You will actually buy the CD even though you have Spotify or iTunes. You know what I mean? Like, it's something that's cool to see in that scene. So, I think a lot of metal fans are more are more invested in in in like the actual band. And it means a lot more to them than just like, "Oh, another like, you know, pop record or rap record." >> This is going to be a part of my life. I'm going to personally invest myself into this band and their journey, and I'm going to buy their merch and their tickets. Which is amazing, but also has the weird offs, you know, the bad part of it of, "Okay, well, now if if this band does something maybe maybe shifts their style you don't like." Metal Metalheads will be the loudest to say, "This sucks ass now." They'll also be Which feels like a personal insult. >> Yes, exactly. Cuz I think it's you're much more attached to these bands. >> I'm sure that some people are very attached to Megan Thee Stallion. Mhm. But something tells me less so Yes. if she takes a pivot and does acoustic country than if Sleep Token were to do that. >> That'd be hard. She should do baddiecore. That would be good. She already kind of is baddiecore in a way. >> baddiecore with Just put the [ __ ] guitars, dude. Like, Why don't you reach out to Megan Thee Stallion, get her on stream? Okay. And you can do, "Hey, tell me about this new fast songwriting thing." Oh, dude. Yeah. Um You're launching a new channel. No, so not a new channel. So, basically, I a thing I I used to do was like I did this series called How to Metal. It was like writing song It was How do I word this? I would do shorts of like cuz a lot of people loved a lot of these bands, and I love a lot of these bands. I grew up, like I said, listening to a bunch of bands, and I'm like at this point, I've written enough music, I've also listened to enough music, and I understand how it kind of works. I kind of just describing factors we were talking about, like particular types of BPM, or these intricacies of like >> Metal Rick Beato. >> Yeah, yeah, Metal Metal Rick Beato. Respect to Rick Beato, he's sick, by the way. And um >> He's the man. Friend of the >> to do these how to in 30 seconds. So, I would kind of do a short of like, "Okay, you like I I grew up loving Underoath." So, like, "Okay, I want to Here's how to Underoath in 30 seconds." You know what I mean? Cuz I also was having fun of like understanding short content. I I'm again, I come from the old YouTube world of make a video, not make a clip. You know, I was like, I'm like, "What the [ __ ] a clip, right? How am I supposed to make something?" Especially cuz I didn't grow up with like Vine on on my end. It was like, how would I like how do I You know, how do I bring something of value to someone for like in like 10 30 seconds? This is weird. Like, I need to do more. So, I I kind of tried with with this, and I was like, "So, for Underoath example, be like you know, how to Underoath in 30 seconds? You know, dissonant chords, you know, um pterodactyl screech, you know, like you do stereotypical things. Sometimes they're more funny meme uh attributes, and sometimes they're more like the musician knowledge attributes, and you kind of combine those. And like, at the end of 30 seconds, I'd play a kind of like an eight eight-second riff of that kind of outlines that sound, and try to get as close as I can to that style um while not actually taking any of their songs, obviously, cuz that defeats the purpose. Um so, I did that for so many bands. And when they're I saw people were like, "Yo, this is sick. Like, full version when? When are you doing the full one?" I'm like, "You really? You like you want the full version of this?" Like, "Okay, so." I would um go on stream, and I would write the whole thing in two and two and a half hours, two to three hours, um live, because I thought it was fun. You know, I'm like, "All right, well, I already have the hardest part to write, the the riff and the vibe. So, like I kind of got to commit." Anyways, I would do that, and then I'd put it on DSPs, and kind of make it a whole roll out on YouTube. Um so, I did that, and that was probably the peak of when I was doing YouTube, and like going hard, and doing a lot of crazy [ __ ] Um and I'll do that once a week, release a song once a week, do one of those once a week. It was a little psychotic, but uh it was fun. And then fast forward kind of a year later, I I took a break for many reasons, but you know, especially burnout and doing that for a while. And then when I came back, um I noticed, you know, hey, you know, when I was gone, all you know, I was taking care of myself, I was going outside and like you know, working out, caring about like under learning. I missed learning so much about macros, micros. And I was like, oh my god, like what the [ __ ] is this? Well, I never I haven't taken time to learn new things, right? Um and with that also learning production, learning more songwriting, learning a lot of that. And I noticed I spent most days just also writing music, hanging with my wife, and feeding squirrels, like going to the park, and going to Costco. Like that was my life. Um and coming back, I came back with a song, which was really sick nocturnal track that I was like, yeah, let's combine like these really obscure references, like dance, electronic music, and and funk and thaw music, like Lo Jarta and Marana and all this stuff, and see what happens. And um kind of made that a new project. And as I came back, the focus of me wanting to write, I started to get a little distracted of like, oh, like this is fun, like YouTube. Like, yeah, I guess let's make you like videos and stuff. And like I had a lot of fun doing that, but very quickly, to avoid going back to, you know, the cycle of oh, [ __ ] Uh I caught myself very quickly, cuz again, that time off, I never had time off. I I did YouTube for 12 11 years at that point. Yeah, 11 years straight. I don't think I ever did not upload for a week. Um and again, best job in the world. It's it's it's hard work, but in a different capacity, you know, it's very mentally exhausting. There is no such thing as clock out. It is you think about it. It's all you do. It's all you think about, right? Forever. But obviously, in terms of like versus a real job, you know, it's much easier. Like I much prefer to do that, right? Um but yeah, I I came back and I was starting to do these things and I'm like, oh, this is fun, too. Like, yeah, I kind of want to explore. Like I want to test the grounds. Like what do I feel? Like, this is you know, I I left the internet and took my break and have this new perspective on on life to a capacity, but it's particularly about what I want to do to with my life every day. Um and with with what I want to give to people and share with people. Uh and what I want to spend my time doing. And it's been a bit of a trial period until kind of um a few months ago. I was like, "Okay, like I understand. I tried a little this, I tried a little that." Again, like that's definitely not for me. I did So, I don't want to be the reaction guy cuz like I feel like I can offer the world more than watching a song, you know? And it's really tricky cuz particularly with what I've done with the channel and what I've done with myself is I love sharing music. That's That's what it came down to. That's why, you know, I started I when I started my channel, I would do guitar covers because I didn't know how to talk, really. You know, I was just an awkward kid, you know, and and I just finishing high school. And I didn't really know how to talk to people. I didn't really I didn't know what being a YouTuber was. I just played guitar and I had a lot of cool music on guitar that I wanted to share with people. Um so, the channel has always kind of been revolved around sharing new music in different capacities, whether like later on it's reactions, whether it's through memes, etc. etc. >> [snorts] >> And then again, nowadays, it's like, "Okay, well, how do I do that while still not going back to kind of old ways of like, 'Oh, well, here's the news. Let's talk about it.'" But, like the news is kind of always [ __ ] up, you know? There's not Unfortunately, in the metal scene, there are really good things that happen and really amazing like Hell yeah, like that's a big feat, you know? Like, Knocked Loose playing Kimmel or like Spiritbox playing like uh the Grammys. Like, that's amazing, right? Um but, there's also a lot of like, "Oh, this guy got canceled." And like, "That guy texted someone under age." And you're like, "Okay, this is not You know, I don't want to go live and talk about this with people. This is not what I want to bring energy into my life, first of all. I don't want to absorb this." >> kind of obliged to because you're in the scene and this is news in the scene. >> Exactly. I'm >> Hey, "Hey, you're you talk about such and such?" Dude, when I was gone and Aussie died, that [ __ ] was so sad. And like, the only thing I was like, "Fuck, man. Like, I grew up, you know, one of the first metal songs I ever heard was Crazy Train." In general. Um and like, [ __ ] man. This sucks. And I was gone from the internet. So, the only thing I had was like, "Thank [ __ ] I do not have to talk about this because this is like, this is not my place. This is not something I want to go live and discuss and like, share it." You know what I mean? Like, this is it's it's really tricky. Cuz you also want to with a community and you build a community for so long, you know, just like you celebrate the wins, you have to celebrate the L's and the sad parts, right? Um and when there's some things, too, when it's like, "I don't add value to this conversation beside maybe slightly consoling a few people." Um but it's also like, I'm not in the right space to do that anyway. So, I'm not I'm not going to bring any positive energy to this by doing anything with this. So, like, a lot of things like that happen and it really sucks. And that's something, again, I was in the space of what I was doing before, which I had fun. It was great and I feel like community-wise, like, it became something really strong and a lot of people would go and look for it. Like, "Hey, there's news this, this, that." But um when it came down to it, it still was like, it was too much of like a slippery slope of of like, "Hey, this really cool thing happened. Great. Yeah. This really shitty thing happened." Oh. >> Guess I need to talk about that as well. >> Yeah, and it's ironic because obviously in the content space, the negative stuff will do better. And a lot of people get really excited. Dude, Fontana versus Radke was like the heavyweight battle of 2025. >> [gasps and laughter] >> There's the scene's lovely, Chris. It's it's a crazy place where I like from the sidelines I see and I'm like, I'm kind of like, "I'm happy I can just chill on the sidelines." >> You are aware that this is the same in like every industry though, right? Like, in podcasting, it's just as tight. There's entire ecosystems dedicated to reporting on the drama that's going on. Not reporting on what they're reporting on. >> Yes. Reporting on what's happening between the people who do the reporting. >> Yes, between who do the reporting. And then reacting to the video of them talking. What I can't wait for is when people react to the people who do the reaction. I want derivative content all the way up. I want to be able to have What were those [ __ ] What was the reason that the entire financial crisis happened? What were they? CD CFDs or whatever they were called? Like the the those like [ __ ] derivative things where people were bundling together a ton of debt. I want the bundle together debt of the bundle together debt of the bundle together like all of the gossip of the gossip of the gossip and I want to be like [ __ ] two guys at the top. >> Yeah, I feel I feel yeah, that goes on a lot in the content space for sure. And I think in the metal scene, too. Like it it it has bled through a lot and that's why it's like if I'm going to like I when I left, I was like, "I'm content with my legacy." And I genuinely am. I'm like if I actually never >> to just leave it forever. I am so I am pro I'm con mm I'm proud of what we did and the thing I brought to the internet for that years. You know what I mean? Like I I look back on it and sure I screwed up and did dumb [ __ ] you know what I mean? Like so does everybody. Yeah, it's one of those where it's like I am proud that I I feel like over those years I was a net positive to the space in terms of which I which I worked and ended things with, you know what I mean? And that that I was like, "I'm I'm cool with this." Like if this is actually it, that's great, you know what I mean? Like I'm going to take a break, but like I'm not going to pressure myself of like I need to come back cuz I need to be at peace. And I told my wife this, too. I was like, "If I leave at all, I need to actually be at peace that I'm gone." I'm leaving, not taking a break. Yeah, like I I need to have that mentality. However, I don't I also don't want to always close things, you know? So, I don't want to just be like definitive like cuz I know I love it, right? So, that's something really tricky. I love the space and I love this. And even if I do something in a different capacity, it's like okay, I want like I'm going to let's let's take a break cuz I need to figure out my I need to take a break anyways, but I need to still at this point be content if that's not just a break, you know what I mean? And like especially cuz I've never taken a break. So doing that, you you you you learn a lot of [ __ ] about yourself and you learn a lot of things about what's priorities in life and just like what matters and >> What was that like? A lot of people even if they don't make videos on the internet can relate to being hard charging. You've said uh I've never actually taken the time to not just burn, right? This always on candle at both ends thing. Talk to me about the deceleration of attention, progress, even your habits. You wake up and research what's going on on Rock Sound or whatever and then that would be that would be part of the thing. >> Yeah. And you your girlfriend, wife, you're like, well, [ __ ] you know, like she does the same thing as me or similar thing to me and like maybe cuz I'm not doing this thing anymore. Well, who's my identity? How am I after this? Can you just explain the suite of challenges and how you dealt with them as you went through your hiatus? Uh that's that's a big chat probably with a psychologist for like 2 hours, but I'll I'll dump it down to more like Yeah, it's it One of the big things you mentioned too like my wife does the same thing I do, which is awesome. Like she's a musician, she's she produces, she and she used to also play guitar and do guitar content too and like that's so cool. And one of those things of just being like I'm so lucky doing what I do and especially what I did at that time and I'm so grateful for it. And that's why it's so tricky to be so grateful for something and want to also show that, you know, cuz I don't want to people to also be like, hey dude, like you're you're not feeling like what you get to be a YouTuber and what you're sad? Like what's your [ __ ] problem? You know what I mean? And it's like yeah, cuz life can happen, you know, there's there's other aspects of life, but also it being a thing of like you know, like my wife is here and like she also does the same thing. However, I'm I'm still playing like single player in my career because of how I set it up for the past 12 years. You know, my career is based around me doing this, this and this and this and this and this. Meanwhile, my wife's there also doing her own thing, which she's never complained about. She's the most supportive amazing woman ever. Um but it's still one of those things of like I remember I would, you know, if something would happen in the scene or like a comment like I'd be like, "Oh, I got to go do this video and do this thing." Um which again, bless job, but it's one of those of like I see my wife there like writing music there by herself and I'm like I just want to write music to you. Why the [ __ ] am I doing this? >> living life, this is one of the problems when you have two people who have big lives, especially lives that start to get separated. >> Yeah. The most meaningful things that you do in your work life occur separately. >> Yes. Like you have your highest highs of your career and you're not sharing them with your person at all. Yeah. And I'm so I am so fortunate that my person does all those things. So that's why >> At least she can speak the language even if she's not there when it happens. >> Exactly. And she's always she's always been so supportive like do your thing. And and that's something I'm so grateful for. And you know, that was something I noticed uh when I when I took a break and just spending time us doing like just writing dumb music. Like having fun, writing not even metal [ __ ] We wrote like funk beats and like Brazilian funk [ __ ] and like electronic music and that stuff. And it was like so fun. Where like there was no one around. It was just us. No pressure. Yeah, writing music. We would turn on like the strobe light just for the vibe for us, you know, there's no cameras. We didn't care, right? It's something so special. But like that was a big thing of like this is so special, you know what I mean? And I I want I want to make every day like this if I can, you know, I'm fortunate enough to have a career around this. So why why not spend time figuring out what life can be now that I'm like an adult. Because when I started this, I was 17, 18. Your your your brain is not [ __ ] fully formed until like you're like 30. I don't know. Like I you know, like as as especially as a metalhead, you know, like it takes a while. Um and that's something where you you grow so much and you become just a diff- not a fully different person, but you just evolve as a human, obviously, as you get older. And you know, that's something where all I ever knew was this. Like I went to school. I even finished my degree. I have a shitty accounting degree that I can use as toilet paper cuz it didn't do [ __ ] all for me in my life, but like actually when I was going to school, it gave me the contrast and context to actually appreciate what I did even more, which is something kind of funny. So, I thank going to school, but also like it didn't itself do anything for me other than provide something that was a distraction for, you know, me just wanting then the thing I wanted to do more. But, that made me want to do this even more because I saw the other side. I was like oh my goodness, like that's that life? Like I'm so unhappy doing that. Like I can do it, but it's not That's not how I want to live my life, right? So, I put so much emphasis of not trying to make it because even back then, you know, I was making 50 cents on YouTube AdSense a year. Like it was hilarious because all my stuff was covers. So, copyright claims. Um but I was doing it cuz I loved it. I just didn't care. I was like, "I'll figure it out. I'll teach lessons. I'll do this this. I'll figure it out, right?" Um but I had so much fun especially during that time of just figuring it out and putting my whole life into this. And then when you start to actually the year like a year goes by or 2 years go by and you're like, "Oh, I I'm paying rent in my own place. Like I I I wrote a track with this person that I looked up with like I looked up to, you know what I mean? Like when I was a young kid. Like oh, I I got to chat with this person. Oh, like you know what I mean? Like it just becomes your whole life and you're like, "Whoa, like this is overwhelming." Cuz there was no expectations um of me going into what I what I do with my life, you know, in terms of content creation, writing music, that whole world. And for it to actually for me to somewhat manifest things without having the intent of, you know, it's almost like a delusion in a way of like I was delusionally like, "Oh yeah, we'll make it. We'll get the million subs, you know, like we'll write music and pretend we won't be homeless." >> [laughter] >> You know, like but it was delusional me talking that somehow manifested it to happen. And then when it does happen, you're like, "Oh my god, I need to give more of me now, and more, and more, and more, and more, because I'm never going to go back to that kid that stared in class writing polymeters and polyrhythms on my [ __ ] mu you know, sheets in in in accounting expense class. Like, I'm not going to do that. It's not going to be me." Um so there's so many like emotions and elements that get embedded, and then you're you know, my brain particularly basically evolved and grew up with that. Just This is it. Bring the most value to the space. Be the most productive. Don't be [ __ ] lazy. Give it your all. [ __ ] going to Jake's party on Friday or whatever. Like, what why you know, that's that's not important. You know, go go be something. Go go be someone with your life. And and that was the end all be all, which I'm very happy I did with my life, because I'm my life is what it is now, but at the same time, it's such a tricky thing, which I had no balance in life. I never understood balance of like act like there were there's days I didn't go outside. Uh-huh. Which you know, like is again, you get to work at home and make music. Shut the [ __ ] up. You know, you don't have to go outside, but at the same time, it's like, "No, dude, like I didn't go I didn't get sun. Like, you need that for your like That's why the sun's there. It's to absorb. You know, like you need that for your health." Um so like it was really tricky for me to learn work-life balance, because my life was you know, work. It was my passion. And it was so embedded, and because it was such a self- rewarding circuit almost of like, "I do get to do what I love, and it's my job, and it's everything I care about in my life. Why would I do anything else?" And you quickly realize how unstable you can like your life can become, because then you your self-worth is basically only this. This is all you are as a human is what you you know, your your YouTube channel, or this the song you write, or the video you make. That's who you are as a human. So, if it does poorly, you're a shitty person, too, you know? So, that's a lot to unpack, yeah. But, that's kind of like what taking that break like I I needed to get that balance. I needed to be a human. I needed to be like, I'm an adult. Like, I basically haven't had this moment of clarity of doing anything other than this in my life. Like, who am I? Mhm. You know, like, I still love breakdowns and breeze and, you know, 808s that explode my speakers, right? Like, do I? Like, I think so, right? I I still love playing guitar. I still love this and that moment and that space brought me a lot closer to the things of all of those things and made me realize like, I I'd [ __ ] live for this, you know? It's not just because I'm in this cycle. Like, I live for this, but I need balance. And that was a big thing. Because if you're doing something and you've never stopped, momentum can carry you through. And you don't actually take a moment to go, "Do I want to do this?" Yeah. "Is this actually my thing?" Well, it's also really tricky when again, there's I'm very grateful for what I've have and the channel and everything and the people that support me over all these years. Like, I still see people from when I started and I'm like, "Dude, I remember the guitar covers." And I'm like, "Dude, I haven't done that in 10 years. You're You're OG. That's so cool, right?" And like, you I know I'm very fortunate in that capacity. So, that's another thing of like, again, who are you to complain? Like, tough it out, you know? And that's something I would tell myself in a very unhealthy way. A quick aside, there is a stat that genuinely surprised me when I first heard it. 95% of people don't get enough fiber. Not because they're being careless, but because hitting your daily fiber target through food alone is actually quite hard. But, that's why Momentous built Fiber Plus. See, fiber isn't just a digestion thing. It's the foundation of your gut health, which drives how well you absorb nutrients, how stable your energy is, and how quickly you recover. If your gut isn't dialed in, everything else that you're doing is working at a fraction of its potential. Fiber Plus is a three-in-one formula built to address digestion, gut barrier strength, and blood sugar stability all at once. And this cinnamon flavor is unreal. You might think, "Fiber, wow, I bet that tastes great." Well, yeah, actually it does, doubters. I really enjoyed this. Best of all, Momentous offers a 30-day money-back guarantee. So, if you're not sure, you can buy Fiber Plus, try it for 29 days. If you don't love it, they'll just give you your money back. And they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money-back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's l i v e m o m e n t o u s.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout. I have a theory about this. I'd be interested to know what you think. How many bands or comedians do you know of that have suffered with creator burnout or something similar? Oh, I think majority of them in a capacity, no matter what. >> point that they've had to take a break from doing the band at all. >> [sighs and gasps] >> A few of them, yeah. I think >> Some. Yeah, yeah, some. How many creators that make YouTube videos do you know that have done the same thing? "I'm stepping away from YouTube. I need to take a break." Ryan Trahan Yeah. just fired his entire team. I saw him and his wife walking down the street the other day and he's like, "Yeah, man, it's just me and my iPhone and I'm going to be doing 12-hour days, like logging all of these things cuz I didn't want to manage people anymore." Here's my point. Yeah. Creator burnout happens to YouTubers and podcasters and Instagram people at a rate so much higher than you'd anticipate if you just heard what their jobs were. So, you go, "Okay, so on one side of the table, you've got bands that have to be on tour all the time. They're away from their families. They miss their kids growing up. They don't spend time with their partner. They're in sweaty tour buses. Sometimes they're nice, sometimes they're not nice. They've got places to be. They have to travel the world, the time zones, the sleep deprivation, all of this [ __ ] the pressure, the highs, the lows, the pull back, all that, the unpredictability of whether the band's going to make it, all the rest of it. Like, if you look at that as a lifestyle, if you just say what it's like, it doesn't sound the same for comedians, the same for DJs. DJs are a little bit different, but the same for comedians. Go, you're on the road all the time. You with one other person who's your support, and maybe a tour manager if you're lucky. You go to these random places and say these things, and you've got the pressure of whether or not you're going to perform. And what do you do if you're a content creator? Well, you do it from the comfort of your home. You get to have dinner delivered to your house every single day. You've got Uber Eats. You can go to the gym in the morning if you want to. Yeah, sure, maybe you don't get to see sunlight that much or whatever, but like, you're doing what you love from the comfort of your home. You don't even need to put pants on. Like, this is the dream. The objective difficulty of your job and my job Yeah. way lower than it is of something like comedy or being in a band. >> Exactly. >> So, why is it the case then that content creators, people that do YouTube and podcasting, burn out at a way higher clip than bands and comedians? In my opinion, that that's because of the speed and the amplitude of the feedback. Yeah. >> Bands get screaming fans immediately. You do something cool, sing a good note, you immediately see the positive reinforcement of the people in the front row and the back the of hundreds, thousands of rows beyond that. You get to see it happening. You are a comedian. You tell a joke, immediately you get that feedback, dopamine, da da da da da. We do a video. I mean, for you, you're live streaming, so it's a little bit different. The speed is quick, but the amplitude is so small. It's just bleeps and bloops on the screen. It's emotes, lol, kek, that was great. Thank you. Good, very good. Well done. Thank you. Like, and then you hit a million subs, and you go, "Wow, that was just a bigger number on a screen." That was a crazy moment. Yeah. But still, if you were to do the equivalent in a band, right, whatever that would be to sell out your first arena, let's say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Cuz I think that that's probably comparable in terms of like where you get to in your career versus where you get to as a band. Like it wouldn't be a stadium, a stadium would probably be 10 mil. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. >> So it's I played my first sort of 7,000, 8,000 cap show. Wow, and I sold it out in advance. That's my million play sub thing. >> Yeah. How different is the experience of playing in front of 7,000 people sold out in an arena for you versus this like moment that you do something that's really meaningful to you and thank you so much to the community for being here, but like it's so much smaller and quieter comparatively. And this is why I think that creative burnout, that's a long-winded way of my bro science theory that probably isn't true, of me saying I think creators burn out because they don't have sufficiently loud and sufficiently quick feedback mechanisms to give them the positive reinforcement that bands and comedians and DJs get when they go on the road. >> Mhm. I think I think also the creator lifestyle is more naturally encouraging of being a bit of a degen. You know, like in a fun way. It's like Not seeing sun. Yeah, yeah, like yeah, literally not seeing sun, like doing nothing. Um Being on your own. Being Yeah, very It is a very isolating thing. Uh you know, I think a lot of people attribute to it. It's like, "Oh, you see the big YouTubers, they're all in their party houses and shit." I'm like, "Come on, guys." That's No, no, you know you know what the YouTuber is doing? He's editing at 5:00 a.m. and going to the local grocery store to get like some like Doritos or something. Yeah, exactly. And then coming back. I And that's that's that's the equivalent, you know, of of that. And then going back to the room while you know, their fam and you know, friends already are asleep or something or like their partner is, you know, I've been in bed since 12, you know, like a normal human, um and then has to wake up >> as much life as you would on tour without the benefit of the experiences and the memories. Well, it's it's true. I think particularly the mental aspect of it. Cuz it's also so weird of like physically you are at home. You are there, right? Which is a gift. It It is much easier of course than being on the road. Holy [ __ ] right? That's That's a night That's That's intense. I'm surprised there's so many people that tour that are able to mentally Well, I I I I understand. I understand what you mean that the objective level of comfort is greater when you're at home, but I think that although it's true, it kind of misses what comfort feels like and what satisfaction and where meaning and satisfaction comes from, which is going through something hard and coming out the other side okay with people. Yes. >> Right? That's what it is. >> Yeah, there's always people around even if it's like even if your whole band's busy your I don't know, your photographer's there, your front of house guy is there. Exactly. The LD's there, the TM's there. Like you can go for dinner with somebody. You get to share in the failures and in the successes yeah both at the same time. It's not the same. It's just It's simply not the same. So again, like I understand the like throat clearing land acknowledgement you've got to do of saying, "I understand I'm in a privileged position and I don't need to leave the house and who am I to complain and a da da da da da and that that is true, but I think it just misses People who have a problem with that and say, "Well, there's no reason that creators should be getting burned out." They just simply don't understand where meaning and motivation come from and they don't come from comfort. It's not what you want, it's what you need and sometimes what you need isn't always what you want. For instance, I'm friends with a bunch of people in bands that are at the transitionary period from where they've just been on a bus sleep a bus Yeah. to now being able to afford hotels each night. Right. They want the hotel room each night. They need to be on the bus with the band >> Mhm. because they finish a show, they go back to a hotel and now they're on their own. Yeah. And even though that's what they want, it's not what they need and I think that mental health will decline in line with how separated the members of a band get. Yeah. You know, there's uh duos that have separate tour buses. Yeah, I yeah, oh yeah, I know. You know what I mean? And they're touring together. [ __ ] it, homeboys conga lining their way from like Atlanta to Pittsburgh or whatever. And you go, "Well, why is that happening?" You go, "Well, because we can afford it. And I want that." You go, "Yeah, but are you happier? Or were you happier when you and homeboy were bunking on top of each other? Yeah. Because I reckon that you actually were more Anyway, all of that is to say that like just because what you want might be to sit in your comfortable seat at home and and have your air conditioning and your Rubr Bricks come here and not need to put pants on. Mhm. That doesn't mean >> That doesn't mean that it's the highest level of motivation and reinforcement you want. And this is where I mean, it's never going to work. It's me me and you, no matter how much we try to warn people, it's never ever going to work. But what is it? The number one job that uh young kids want is YouTuber and the the second one is influencer. That's great. Dude, when I back in my day, dude, it was still [ __ ] doctor and astronaut. So, I don't know what the hell's happening. >> [laughter] >> Like if everybody, you know, if someone gets like, I don't know, a big cut now, if they're just [ __ ] cuz it's just a YouTuber coming to save them. Like, I don't know what's going to happen with that. >> wanted it to be a creator, but I couldn't cut it on YouTube. So, uh I'm here I think we put we pull some We'll pull some of this beer on and it'll be fine. >> beer Polysporin fixes everything. Don't worry about it. You know what I mean? Like, [ __ ] it. But, it's That's where it's it's tricky cuz I grew up in that era. YouTuber You wasn't a job still in um the early 2010s, right? There was like some of the bigger YouTubers, like the PewDiePies um and the the Markiplier. I think Markiplier was around mid mid '10s. Um and those guys doing stuff. And that's that's that's great. But, you could tell Again, it's a different vibe, too. Like, they're just being dumbasses and having fun. Like, they're having fun. They're already iso- >> PewDiePie's [ __ ] done his retreat from the internet, though. >> Yeah, dude. I love his new vibe. He's just like I I I got my fam. I'm living my life. And I'm doing Linus [ __ ] Like, I'm vibing, dude. Like, he's just doing his own thing. And I'm like, good for you, bro. I I wrote this essay a couple of weeks ago, the [ __ ] you family. So, there's three different stages that people can say [ __ ] you at. [ __ ] you money. Okay. Don't need to ever worry about what something costs. You're not even that beholden to the limitations of going to work. You don't need to have a boss. Wonderful. [ __ ] you freedom. Mhm. Which is maybe you're on a ranch somewhere out here in Texas. You kind of don't even need to adhere to the laws if you keep yourself quiet enough. It's kind of usually facilitated by [ __ ] you money, but it's a little bit different, too. Sometimes you can get it in a different sort of a way. You could imagine the van life people have got [ __ ] you freedom without [ __ ] you money. >> Mhm. But there's a third level, which is [ __ ] you family. And [ __ ] you family is realizing that all of the games that you played to try and get acclaim and respect and recognition from the people in your industry, admiration from the people you admire, all that stuff, kind of doesn't matter anymore because the only people that I need to care about are in the bed next to me or in the room across the hall. And they think that I'm the coolest, richest, smartest, most heroic person on the planet. So, as long as my wife and my babies love me and think that I'm awesome, [ __ ] you. >> Yeah. And that, I think, explains this. You could call it just the dad pivot. Mhm. Um that a lot of guys go through and it's sick to see PewDiePie do it, too. You know, someone who really was sending the living [ __ ] out of it, like at the top of his game, Mhm. to just be like, I'm good, man. I'm out. I'm out. I can't wait for that. I'm so ready to do [laughter] this from a place of peace. I'm out. Yeah, it's it's so tricky. It it's Dude, when when people make it like that and kind of go somewhat unscathed, cuz you know matter what, like you can't escape with a little >> PewDiePie [ __ ] skated the entire industry. I I considering considering the situation that happened, Correct. now out >> with not a scratch on him. That yes, so like that's that's why like I think other people one of my [ __ ] Filthy Frank being one of those OG YouTubers too where it's like that dude quitting at the perfect time is it's he knew. He knew what was coming. >> Bitcoin at the top of the market. Yeah, yeah, dude. It's it's better than that and then then being able to also do exactly what he wants with Joji is like woah, that's like a different kind of [ __ ] you. That's like uh Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Like that that's like a [ __ ] transcendental [ __ ] >> Escape velocity. Yeah, man. I'm like how did you Yeah, we're like especially when especially now it's like it's crazy when you have a catalog like that. You're just uncancelable. I love that. That's why like because you're out. What's someone going to do? Sorry, take me down. I'm not making anything. Yeah, I'm I'm Joji. I I love that. You know what I mean? >> I would love to see the the like residuals that somebody like a PewDiePie is getting if he just doesn't upload anything else. You know what I mean? Because you just got How many limited ads you've gotten on those videos? Dude, that's a tricky thing and when it comes to YouTube and also part of the reason I had a lot of trouble cuz I derive so much of my worth and value of YouTube. Not necessarily always cuz of the numbers. Like you know, if a video didn't do so well, I wouldn't be like, oh, I'm going to go like end everything now. It's it's I it was just tricky. It's like your baby, a thing you really care about and it's it feels like you're not it's not growing. When I was younger, that would hit me a lot and then over time start to diversify. Right? As the thing with YouTube or just one particular platform and I would always advise this to like other content people and as well as even musicians of just like, please God, do not just trust this one thing cuz like YouTube can sit there and just be like uh here's a new policy. Yeah, you know that edgy content you did like with all those guys. It's all limited ads now. You you make 10% of what you made before cuz advertisers are you know, the better advertisers not showing up and now it's only like the whatever gambo crazy [ __ ] that that's on there so it's it's sorry, you know, and you just have to stare at it and be like, "Okay, so I have 5% of my income now. Like that's how it goes." Right? And that's a tricky thing unless you diversify of being like, "Okay, well, ah okay, like YouTube [ __ ] me, but whatever. I'm streaming on Twitch. Oh, I got Patreon supporters, too. Oh, I'm I also I have I have signature this, I have signature that, I have affiliate links." You know what I mean? Like it's just If you diversify yourself, you're also much less of a like uh susceptible to like just just a platform which does not Any of these platforms don't deserve, I think, any particular loyalty to, you know, the the the kind of creator There's no loyalty from them to you. >> Yeah, exactly. So, it's it's like, why the [ __ ] you know, if if one day, like I said, a Spotify or an Apple Music just wants to be like, "Yeah, man, I don't know, dude. Like Sonos kind of lit, so [ __ ] it." Like all of our money's there. Like real musicians are only getting like 10% now. Like that's hilarious and extreme, but you know what I mean? >> What do you What do you think's happening with the state of Spotify streaming stuff at the moment because there was a a long time and still is of artists being quite disgruntled with a variety of different streaming services. Tidal seemed to be pretty good in the eyes of at least artists, but who the [ __ ] uses Tidal? Um I I don't know that. I don't know a single person in my life who uses Tidal. You know what I mean? Um so, what what's the sort of overview of how artists and streaming platforms are relating at the moment? Uh every I mean, everyone always is pissed. And you know, I mean, like >> [laughter] >> That's just That's just a summary of the world, though. >> That's the summary Yeah, particularly with the music. Like that is one of probably the biggest complaints in the music industry of like streaming doesn't pay enough. Um and it's it's tricky cuz yeah, Spotify pay more, what the [ __ ] But at the same time, a lot of bands also are on contracts. And a lot of the on those contracts, they're not realizing maybe, "Hey, they didn't they signed off like all of their royalties or all of their, you know, streaming revenue or, you know, hey, you still have like your $5 million like loan you got to pay back before you actually get any streaming revenue. So, like I think a lot of those stories get pushed extremely hard with those bands and they're like, you know, they'll be a band that's like, I have like 50 million streams and I made like 20 bucks on my song and it's like, okay, well, yeah, Spotify should pay more, but there's other stuff involved with paid for that record. Yeah, yeah, like there's >> paid for the promo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> for the video? Who paid for your shoot? Who paid for who fronted the merch? Who fronted the tour? >> I think bands are now becoming more aware of deals cuz, you know, back in the day it's like, oh, I signed to a record label. Oh my god, we made it. We did it. We signed whatever piece of paper. Oh my god, $200,000. We're all rich. Let's go drink, you know what I mean? Let's go buy a car in instead of realizing like, oh, we we we all like we have to pay this back, guys, you know, like in a capacity like >> that documentary that was done about 30 Seconds to Mars when they had to make their album? Bro. I have to So, this I only ever saw it once. It might actually be a [ __ ] fever dream. It might not exist. So, but let me see if I can find it. 30 Seconds to Mars documentary Sony. So, it was when they were in Artifact. Is a 2012 award-winning documentary by Jared Leto that follows 30 Seconds to Mars during their 2008 legal battle against EMI. Film documents the band's $30 million lawsuit while they recorded the album This Is War. Holy [ __ ] Provides an intimate look into the music business and the fight for creative freedom. So, this is available It's available on Netflix, apparently. Everyone should go and watch this. I remember seeing this pretty much just after it came out and it [ __ ] ruled. And it is Jared Leto is using like War Dogs money or whatever the [ __ ] that movie was in that he was that was in with Joker Nick Cage or Suicide Squad? No, it was where he was he was the like second in command to a dude. Anyway, like he's using money from acting to fund the band recording the record because the deal that they've got is it's [ __ ] 360, it's like 720. They've got like a 720 deal. And they just eat everything for the rest of time the rest of time the rest of time and uh it is gnarly. This I can't believe that it kind of maybe cuz of when it came out like 2012, who would have done a reaction to it? I reckon your audience would eat this [ __ ] up especially if you did a breakdown. I think it's [ __ ] fantastic. So um yeah, it's eight basically eight stars on IMDb out of 5,000 reviews. So yeah, it it it reps. But yeah, these big 360 deals. I mean I saw the I saw the top line of one of these deals the other day and the first thing of a 12-page record deal contract >> Yeah. is something along the lines of this is a long-standing and completely binding legal document. It is crucial that you fully understand this because it involves the rest of your life. It is highly advisable to get legal advice to da da da like Yeah. >> Up top it is I guess if you're in a band that's been grinding for so long and some it's like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah [ __ ] the small print. Where's the where's the where's the ooh 750 grand? Yeah. I mean I think nowadays a lot of those deals have become better cuz artists have become more aware and also labels have become more I think the right word might be accommodating. I'm not sure of like okay like we need to be a bit more creative instead of it just be like these classic like >> to [ __ ] you in an inventive way. In an inventive way. Like yeah, where it's and I and also I I remember I mean I would see I would talk with bands right and understand a bit and and talk with labels too. I'll be like I I learned a lot of that knowledge more working within the scene from my perspective, which was different. Again, I'm not I'm not I wasn't in a signed band. I wasn't with that. I was working with a lot of labels. I was working with a lot of signed bands. I had a lot of friends with a lot of signed bands and a lot of friends, you know, with the A&Rs and the labels and stuff. And working as a again, content creator YouTuber space, right? But my space is usually not as coincided with that world. It's like, you are content DIY random figure it the [ __ ] out guy. You make you do Photoshop and you go make memes, right? >> And here you go, these people will make the real music, right? And actually deal with the real business. Like that's that was kind of the relationship many, you know, I wish less years ago, but you know, like quite a few years ago. Um and that's something where I've seen over the years I remember talking to someone and being like, oh, so what like the industry standard for like how many how many records you own? It's like, you know, what it would be someone would say like, yeah, we all like we we all we still owe our label like five records and I'm like, I would sit there and I'd be like, what do you mean? Cuz I it's I was like again, as a concept for especially >> Singles Singles or albums? No, albums. Albums. I owe them like 60 tracks. >> Yeah, and I and I just okay, so math, if we do the two-year cycle of most majority of bands of release schedule, you signed away 10 years of your life. I don't know when you plan on dying, brother, but that's more than 10% of your life. And I especially with a lot of these musicians, they seem to want to be be musicians cuz they love music and come to this space to not be conventional and not want a normal job and not have someone tell them what what they can and can't do. And I would see a lot of musicians and it would be very sad of like, that seems more of a lock-in corporate [ __ ] than just going to work at a you know, the the bookkeeping firm. >> True, because it's taking what was your passion and turning it into an engine. Yeah, which to the credit of some labels that are able to do it very well and successfully. Obviously, there's sometimes big bands that otherwise maybe especially in the 2000s like they didn't have a label. Maybe there's a lot of musicians that do not have the best business side of things, you know? They They just want to play music. You know, they grow up, they [ __ ] love Nirvana, they love Metallica, and they just want I want to make that. I want to do that. I want to do it now. I don't give a [ __ ] about business. I don't I don't care They don't I don't want to look at my bank account, right? Like none of this. And kudos to them, right? They want that, but then they do need that business person. They do need that label to or manager at the very least, right? To figure [ __ ] out for them. And yeah, they're going to get taken advantage of because that's how the industry works, right? Um if you you know, you're kind of just going with the flow. I don't know where Unless you find someone that's just I don't know, the very rare person that has you know, is a bit more empathetic and is like, "Hey, dude, you know what? Like I know I can [ __ ] you for this, but I'm only going to [ __ ] you for this because you're cool and I want to see you succeed, you know what I mean?" Um and that's a tricky line to to go ahead with where like five years, it's like, "Bro, like what?" Or even I mean, three years left. I'm like Or not three years, three albums. I'm like, "That's six years of your life at least. Like that's Dude, you are a different person in six years. Like you you You You even going to like this type of music in six years? Like That's such a long commitment. Um it's like a marriage to the business entity, which would be a label. And then you're also married, you're in a band, so you're married to all your band members. You're trying to make How many marriages you trying to work out there, bro? Yeah. Like, you know, a lot of people have tricky with one, and you want to make, you know, your five band members, you're married to them. You see them more than your family. You eat together, you know all of your habits, you know how to piss each other off, you know what I mean? You You guys earning come together, you lose income together. And you have the corporate entity over you and management and whatever else that's attached to that. Which again, some some musicians [ __ ] need this because they're They need to They need guidance in a capacity. Um but for some of those deals, especially the like 2000s or way back when, it's like, "Holy [ __ ] bro. How do you like that's That's too much commitment, man. How are you doing that?" >> Given that nobody doesn't listen to music. Yeah. No one. Everybody has some music. Some people are more into music than others. Some people are more into some music than others, but everybody listens to some sort of music. >> Yeah. I can't believe how [ __ ] the music industry is. It's It is [ __ ] wild, dude. What I When I found out about how distribution works, but like DistroKid and and if you want to put If I want to put a podcast on the internet, I've got even a decade ago when I started researching doing the podcast. Pod's like 8 and 1/2 years old. And I used old school RSS on Libsyn 4. And the only reason that I used that is because it was what Rogan used back back back in the day. It's like an old school RSS feed converter that you manually plug into all of these different things. And then after a while it gets a little bit more I remember I was uploading it to like JP, what's that What's that Ghanaian streaming service? It's called like Anna or something. There's like There was like we were putting it on Deezer, we were putting it on SoundCloud, we were putting it on all of these different things. There's like There's a one The only one that you can get in all of Africa at the time. And I'm like manually going in and adding the RSS feed to all of these Every episode? Uh no, once, but then sometimes it would like time out or [ __ ] would change on the back end and I'd need to go in and check the link health. And I did that for 5 or 6 years. And then we moved to Megaphone. Megaphone got bought by Spotify and now everything It's plug and play. It's the It's like [ __ ] Squarespace, right? For making a website. So I don't need to learn to code anymore. I just drag and drop and everything happens. Yeah. Not the same, apparently. If I want to put a song on both Apple Music and Tidal and Spotify at the same time. >> Well, you can use like the You can use like a DistroKid now or Oh, my CD Baby. I forget the name of it. >> But you still have to jump through a [ __ ] [ __ ] like way more hoops, right? In order to coordinate that kind of a release? >> More than the podcast. So, I I And so funny, when I before I left, I I would chat with people and I would have to still use like Pod Farm or something, so I had to use the RSS, but it was still a little bit more like conjoined. So, it was it wasn't what you were talking about. It was like the next gen of much easier. And now it's literally just like, oh, I upload it on like creative Spotify. Like, oh, I guess it's there. Like, it's done. That's cool. Um that's the DistroKid stuff. It and like the music side, it's still it's not that bad, but it's it could be more ideal, you know, like it's basically, okay, title, artwork, date, record label. And if you don't have one, you have to just put, you know, that's why you see some fun like, you know, bands that are independent, they say like, whatever, you know, uh whatever the [ __ ] record is that like, I hate you, brother. Like, whatever. They they make up some random name just to put something in there. Um and then you have to make sure you have the right audio. You have to make sure, you know, you uh you you check if it's like explicit and all this [ __ ] Like, it's basically a checklist of Oh my god, I've done enough times at this point. Probably like five to 10 things every song, unless it's an album. So, every every release is maybe a better wording for that, that you have to do. And then after it's the setup, you got to add the lyrics. You got to add this and that. It's starting to become a bit more automated, so it is a bit easier. But also considering how before you just needed a record label, as far as I knew, maybe there was also specific just distribution companies, I'm sure there was, right? That just did that and you didn't need to be like signed to the label. But then again, don't take me wrong, you probably still had to be signed to the distribution company like capacity. So, that's why when this stuff came out, I think a lot of independent musicians became very happy because again, we we don't ask don't ask for much. You want to bypass the [ __ ] >> Yeah, that cuz that made I I saw a lot of bands and you can always tell them they're independent like I said, cuz it the default is like some like at dis DK number number number as your record label. So, when you see that as an upload, you're like, oh, these are kids that just like just uploaded, just figured it out, you know what I mean? And that's something really funny. Um and then you see them get like signed later. So, now it's like, oh, so a lot of these independent artists have more of a say of at least how they can do it. Even SoundCloud, um, that was a pretty big one in even the the not the metal scene as much. I know there was like literally a genre SoundCloud rap. So, I know in the rap scene it was it was like big. Mhm. Um, in the metal scene it wasn't as popular, but some musicians used it particularly content musicians used that back in the day. So, it's better than before. That's why, but in comparison to how easy I see it is to use like the Spotify podcast thing now, I'm like, you guys got to up your [ __ ] technology music scene cuz like it's taking a bit. Have you seen song DNA on Spotify yet? No, it's not DNA. >> So, I've only just seen this for the first time. Okay, so I decided to do Uncanny Valley of My Heart. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, if you go into the track and then at the like below the lyrics and the about the song and all the rest of it is song DNA. Okay. So, if I click explore, this is all of the different people. So, this is like Ted Jensen, the mastering engineer. >> writer. Dan Graziano, the editor. Annie skates, a contractor. And then like Matt Nichols, drums. And then how many collaborators and how many songs he's on? Like Matt Nichols, so like >> [ __ ] if I open up like Jordan Fish, composer, three roles. So, like and now I can go into worked with 275 artists, recorded 473 songs, top songs with like and now I can go in there and this is all of his stuff. So, this is kind of like a matrix or a web where you can explore how all of the different people are associated with different stuff. >> Cuz before yeah, before it was just you would right click and it would say song credits and they were they were they updated it now. Before it was so pathetic. It was just performer, writer, and producer. And most of the time it would be glitched and not always super accurate anyways, but like if you were a co-producer for example, it wouldn't even show. So, it was just the main producer. It was just the performers and whoever else has primary if you want to, you know, get some extra Spotify plays with you. Go for it, right? And then the songwriters. But, it wouldn't say mixer, it wouldn't say engineer, it wouldn't say [ __ ] all even though when you distribute, you have the option to put all of that tag everything. So, every all that metadata is is usually in there if you take the time to input it, right? If you go to What's the website that lists like every single person that's involved in a record? It's like the legal requirement for it. Oh, like the like pub- like like like actual publishing like BMI something like that. >> yeah. And that seems to be a little bit more granular. >> screw around. Well, that's how a lot of artists who are anonymous get leaked. >> Yes. Because, you know, it comes to publishing and like they're like, you know, Yeah, cute cute that you're supposed to not know who you are. Put your [ __ ] legal name on this website, dude. Thank you. That happens really quickly and it's like, but I you know, they keep Hey, we you know, we're anonymous. And it's like, okay, so I don't give a [ __ ] about your stage name. I need your legal name or [laughter] you're not getting published. So, like it's kind of That you know, that's why I like Yeah, yeah, nice one Doc Danny. We'll have your full [ __ ] Daniel Robertson. We'll have that down. >> Yeah, it's way more lame if it's if if they had to go Dark Danny. It's it's going to yeah. Yeah. What is the worst thing do you think about Oh, actually, what's what's your prediction for the sort of next 5 years or so of alternative music? Are you What are you worried about and what are you positive about? Ooh, that's a big question, man. It's Okay, what I'm positive about is I think the scene is becoming more and more genreless, which I get excited about because then the focus is not, hey, can we make a deathcore or a metalcore or a pop you know, a popcore whatever the [ __ ] banger. It's can we just make a good song? You know, like and you know, I love that because then there's going to be a higher quantity of good music. I think that's always kind of my my end goal with it is just like I whatever road leads to like can we just get more actual good [ __ ] that doesn't suck. Like that's all I really care. So, I feel like the scene is going that way in a in a healthy way. The bad side of that is I think also because metal is the good and the bad. Metal's become more popular than ever, but now it's also almost like cool to like it. So, it's being more gamified. It's becoming more of like a specific structure of how to write like an Octane core song, right? And that's no shade at Octane cuz Octane being metal radio or well rock radio actually it has breakdowns now. That's sick, you know, it has heavy parts. It has screaming, right? Like that's something where I'm like that's that's cool now that people would go there before and just listen to like hell yeah, brother, you know what I mean and like have a good time with like respect to Nickelback, but with Nickelback or with like Creed or with like classic rock. Now you're hearing like the Bad Omens, the Sleep Token, the the Spiritbox and stuff like that on there, right? And that's really good to see. But also the it it becoming much bigger meaning that there's more industry and labels and monetization in this space that maybe didn't exist as much. >> So, there's more of an incentive for people to to do [ __ ] To do to do [ __ ] and to be like, oh well this style is big so just make create, you know, create seven bands that's just that style, you know what I mean? Like Octane core is legitimately a >> What is Octane core? Who would be in that? Like and again this isn't a derogatory like of like oh you're Octane it's it's the people who would derivative of this might be it might be derogatory. Yes, exactly. But like like Bad Wolves is a big one. Um Five Finger Death Punch for sure. That they that is the best description. That one. But it also leads again like you you'll see Bad Omens in there. You'll see Spiritbox. You'll see like Bill Murray even to a point, right? And he's kind of more extreme and fun, right? Um but it's basically music that is it's radio-friendly active rock or {slash} alternative metal and the boundaries is what makes it interesting now is that now you can have double kick. Now you can have screaming. Now you can tune down your guitars. And get away with more. And get you can get away with more. Exactly. So that's what is cool about what Octane Core is. But because of that, it is a very for- formulaic. And a lot of bands see that and see the success and be like, "Wait, my band can make breakdowns and get on radio? What the That's the route to fame. That's that's the route to money. Yeah, you know. And and definitely fame to a capacity where it's like, "Oh, sick. So that's something where it comes with the good and bad. Again, heavy music's getting more popular, great. And that's getting injected in a way where bands are becoming more creative with it, but then also bands are becoming more sterile with it and being like, "This is Oh, well, let's just do this. It's Samey copycat. Samey copycat. Just work write the same chorus every time, use the exact same melody, use the same lyrics with slight differential so we don't get sued, you know, by the other band. And like let's all try to be Linkin Park again, you know, cuz like Linkin That's it's so crazy to me that it took so long for everyone to copy-paste Linkin Park again considering how massive they were in 2000s. But like yeah, that's that's the epitome of like the most successful sound I think in the modern metal sphere. If you can pull off a good Hybrid Theory, Mhm. you're you're eating. You're going to eat well. Yeah. You know. So yeah. Again, it's always tricky because I'm excited for bands to get heavier and that be more things that young kids get into, but I'm also like, "Fuck. It's going to dilute down the sound. >> It's going to Yeah, it's going to make it a little diluted. Which is it is what it is. But also I hear a lot of bands within that making very weird [ __ ] because there's no genres. Like I There's this I don't know if you listen to much of these smaller bands like like Marar or like Disembodied Tyrant. Nope. There's this There's these new subsets of bands that are so extreme that they basically can't be extreme anymore in just that sub genre of the metal sphere they're in. So like deathcore, okay, you're already as extreme you can be. Like there you Lorna did it, you know, like okay and like Whitechapel exists, Suicide Silence and like there's all these new bands, right? So a band like This Is My Tyran is like, well we're doing that but now we're also going to have like dubstep moments. So we're going to take we're going to do >> thing of a different heavy genre and put it into our heavy genre. >> Exactly. So like I'm like, that's sick. Or Morar, which is this small Thall band. Like bands like Vulvodynia, Aversions Crown, Last Breath. Um I don't know if you know Buster, he also has Thrown. Thrown you might know. >> Thrown. Okay, he's the drummer and and songwriter also with with that band and his like more progressive bands are Human as Last Breath and Vulvodynia. And Thall is this genre which is like super djent. It's >> Okay. Yeah, I I I man, I'm going to be such a I'm going to be such a [ __ ] weirdo trying to explain this of like >> we hear from I dude, I I I will explain it all on your podcast, yeah, I got you. So djent was da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da. Then after time kids got bored of da da da da da da da da da da da da and became da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da Periphery? No, cuz Periphery da da da da da da da da da da da da da da. Okay. It's it's more of a rhythmic groove thing where that genre the Thall kind of took all those elements added more of an atmospheric element dialed down the polyrhythmic confusing rhythms and made it more of just >> Less mathy. Less mathy, exactly. More of like groove. Funny enough, more extreme yet more accessible, which is ironic, I would say. Um [snorts] so there's bands that do do that and been doing that for a while and then there's band like this this small band Morar, which they took that and they're like, oh dubstep's sick. Oh, I love like Beethoven. And so they infuse, you know what I mean? So they infuse that with these sounds and it's like a whole 'nother world of like music. And and not just as a music fan, but as a musician and a guitarist I sit there like dumbfounded of like, this is [ __ ] cool. >> This is so sick. So that aspect excites me because music is so heavy now bands are literally trying to find, you know, more excitement and heaviness in weird places, which will make more unique music as at the same time it's becoming more sterile and streamlined for the mainstream. >> a that's a great point, dude. A [ __ ] fantastic answer. I think it's a it's kind of surprising because everybody can reach the market freely. There are no If you don't You don't even need a record label. You can just put Same as me with the podcast. >> Yeah, yeah, your TikTok. >> exactly. Just put it put it up. And that would suggest that things would get more weird and more niched. Yeah. But as people sort of take their eyes off the ball of mainstream, what that means is the people who can get there have even more prestige. >> Yeah. Because I always say this about mainstream TV, people think that it's like lamestream. It's old-school. No one gives a [ __ ] about CBS or 60 Minutes or whatever. And you go, "Hey, there isn't unlimited amount of YouTube that gets uploaded every single day. There are only 24 hours a day on MSNBC or CNBC or Fox or whatever. If you take up 15 of those minutes, that's 15 minutes not going to something or someone else. That means that you have value in a way that simply uploading a YouTube video doesn't. Yeah. It's cool and subversive and rebellious, man. And I'm There's no [ __ ] person telling me what to say. And that's sick about the YouTube thing. But it's low prestige >> Yeah. for precisely the same reason. Mhm. Anyone can do it, so anyone can do it. And I think that this is sort of the bifurcation of what you're seeing here. It's like, who is going to be placed on the new Madden sa- uh game? Like, who's going to be in that? >> Yeah. For sure. Of course. Yeah. Um who is going to get to play the Grammys? Who is going to get to play at the BAFTAs? Who's going to get to play at, you know, these different uh award ceremonies? And who's going to get put on radio? And if you manage to do that, because so many people are looking toward the independent side, that is going to create an incentive. So, I think you're right that you're going to end up with sort of two scenes splintering off Yeah. in additional directions. Yeah. And I I hope the middle scene embraces it, too, when it comes to those smaller bands because there's just so much smaller music now and smaller underground bands. And what happens with the metal scene and it happens with bands like Sleep Token, with bands like Spiritbox, even with with Bad Omens. Anytime these bands, when they're kind of small and underground, they they have that moment. Like Sleep Token had the summoning, right? All of a sudden, yo, all these bands like oh, you know, who's they're not that good. They sold out. It was cool to hate. The fact that it's [ __ ] cool to hate Sleep Token [ __ ] blows my mind, dude. Give me a >> break. Well, there it's it's funny particularly cuz their their discography is not is not metal really, right? It is they are a they're more of a pop leaning band with metal elements, which is great. So, I think because metalheads almost like were like, "You're ours." You know what I mean? Like you're this is ours. Like this is sick. You know, we this we can listen to pop with it, too. That when they do the pop stuff particularly like with their new record, right? There even Arcadia, definitely more pop leaning. That was great. Had like top 50 bangers, but then also had some of the most I'm going to use the word extreme instead of heavy, extreme moments, right? Um and because of that correlation between those two things and like the scene being like, "Well, well, no, you're you're you're ours. We we made you we made you big. You know, you did that thing and then we all We're in on it. That's what we want. Yeah, so like, "No, you're you're you're not allowed to now like like be a just like a band. You you're you're our metal band or you're not, you know what I mean? Or we hate you and you're just some shitty pop band to us." But I also think a lot of criticism came from the mainstream of saying this is shitty mainstream music. I can't remember who the guy was, maybe in the Times, it was a British reporter who did a review of the album. It was album of the year, but he said it was like the worst thing he's ever heard. Like dude, I it just it made me it made me sad, especially to We can cut this if they if this isn't known. Do people know that Sleep Token are from the UK? Do they know that they're British? Um I know they have a [ __ ] landmine. Yeah, they're definitely British. Fine. Yeah, you said it. I said it. Sleep Token they're they're British, bro. They like oi. I'm [ __ ] I'm Canadian, my bad. Yeah. You're I I'll give you license to be able to say that word. That's our word. You can culturally appropriate for the time being. Like hey, we're not exactly [ __ ] showering ourselves in glory as a country at the moment. You know what I mean? Like we should take every Grammy nomination that we can get. >> Take the dove, dude. We should take every single Grammy nomination We should take all of that because it would be good. Well, you guys have tons of sick metal bands, which is always pretty good. You have some I mean okay, Loathe, Sleep Token, I mean if you classic, I mean like Bullet obviously is is is massive in terms of Architects, dude. Bring Me Bring President Yeah, exactly. So we're ripping. You guys are ripping and that's where it's like that's sick. You know, Canada Now, I'm always proud of Canada cuz Alexis is on fire. Are they Canadian? Is Dallas Green Canadian? Yeah, yeah. I think they they [ __ ] from Hamilton. I might just get so roasted by all of them. >> [laughter] >> I'm pretty sure they're from [ __ ] Hamilton, right? You're an idiot, dude. It's Pittsburgh. Dude, you're so [ __ ] I know they're they're they're Well, I know that too because you know why when I live in Canada my whole life Canadians, you'll go like it's it's a very particular scene in in Toronto with with with metal heads and it's always fun and when you go to shows, for some reason the metal heads in Toronto lean prog and and and like and post-hardcore. Okay. Out of all the things >> do they listen to? So Protest the Hero. Okay, [laughter] [ __ ] hell. That is an insane refresh ball. >> It is it is a scribe. >> That I haven't listened to Protest the Hero in like a decade and a half. >> Any musician I ever met that literally said I I like heavy music or anything to play guitar I was like what's your favorite Protest Hero? No matter what. >> [ __ ] Okay, guys, that's very proggy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's that and then it was Alexis on Fire. Okay, fine. >> Good. And then it was like like Intervals and like kind of like the jazz gent dudes from like the 2010s, you know, like that whole like let's sit through a plenty intervals um Polyphia came from that scene, but they're not that really sound anymore. So, like that sound. Um and then like Billy Talent, which is not metal at all. >> [ __ ] love Billy Talent. >> is sick. >> Billy Talent rules. >> Yes. All right. >> I did a media studies assignment in uh like when I was 16, 17 in sixth form college, and I did it to a Billy Talent song. Exactly. So cool. Dude, I used to jam like the river and like what was it I think it was Billy Talent two. I forgot the [ __ ] numbers. I did those albums like all together nonstop bangers, man. Give me uh let's listen to a couple of tracks from bands that you think that people need to know more about. Like just whatever cool. I've got a I've got a couple that I want to show you. >> Oh, [ __ ] >> So, you I mean Alexis you did Alexis. So, like I'm I'm I I'm happy with >> That's [ __ ] cool. That's nice to be able to throw throw that back. >> Yeah. But uh yeah, who else? What else should we look at? I mean Billy Talent has some bangers, and I don't I don't think in America they're very well known, which is always weird to me cuz they're a big band, but anytime you talk to someone from Tri Cities I I think probably Fallen Leaves is probably like their like little edgier banger. Yeah. This sound, dude. So cool. The guitarist is so sick in this [ __ ] band. Like you can tell that's like a death like a death metal dude that was like, "You know what? I just want to play like punk [ __ ] instead." That's a [ __ ] hell of a head of photo. Yeah. >> [music] >> Aw, dude. I'm back in middle school in the [ __ ] frozen north. Hey there, bud. You want to Timmy's for lunch break, dude? All right. >> [music] >> All right. >> to hit me. You got to hit me with one. All right. Are you not going to get like a thousand copyright claims? I don't care. I don't care. Dude, respect, man. Uh Holy Water. Are you familiar with Holy Water? >> No, I don't KNOW HOLY WATER. SO, THEY JUST RELEASED THEIR ALBUM IS THIS a new band? on Friday. They supported Architects, bro. [ __ ] 3/4 of a mil. Let's go. Let's go. What do I like from this? So, this is the new album. And the most interesting track probably give me a shot. I'll show you this cuz it it goes pretty hard. But, then I will listen a bit of nightmares. Yeah, I've never heard of this band. So, they supported Architects. Were they They were second support. So, [ __ ] Era were first support. >> Oh, yeah. Saw them in Houston. And these guys are really [ __ ] cool. >> Like that progressive metal, Corey. Space. It's just I don't know. They did a Yeah, so this came out April 17th. This is why I asked you whether or not you'd How much you listened to over the weekend. I was like, "Fuck, I hope he hasn't listened to the new No, I haven't listened to this. Oh, [ __ ] Dude, we back in the 2000s. [ __ ] yeah. >> [music] >> That is the kid that grew up. I don't know who the [ __ ] the guitarist is. He grew up with Bring Me The Horizon. Chasing Safety. 100%. >> a bit of shoegaze in it, which is cool. >> Yeah. I mean, Deftones is sick now. And then >> [screaming] >> Yeah. Dude, [ __ ] fire. So, that's my first one for you. And the second one, I'm so glad that you've never heard of them. That's like To be able to slipstream you with an unknown band, >> [laughter] >> I feel like I've just [ __ ] like I feel like I've headshotted someone from across the map. >> Dude, I have That's a >> [laughter] >> I've just fired a bullet randomly and it's gone punk. No scope, bro. Um Say six. I KNOW SAY SIX. AH, SO I GOT TWO FOR TWO. YEAH, DO FALLING In Reverse. [ __ ] >> The the guitar types of style that they have, that's particularly the metal aspect, that's tall. Right. >> that [ __ ] >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do I like What do I like from this? So, I think uh the devotions just so I mean what would you call this genre cuz this is very like >> Fall and B. Really? >> Or modern. This is the thing there's so many stupid genre names that it's all modern metal basically. But like yeah, fall and B cuz it's fall with R&B. It's like is how Token inspired is all of this stuff or is it before them? It's the Token did did many coins, bro. So cool. All right, give me one more from you. >> Okay, I have to show you Mura Masa cuz this is How do I spell it? M I R A R. I got to show you these guys these are [ __ ] Okay, right yeah. So, classical dubstep fall. Okay, I like this cover art. They they they literally take like old school paintings and [ __ ] I don't know if they draw it or they just take it from the internet cuz it's no longer copyright. I have >> 50k 50k monthly's is a [ __ ] good poll. Yeah. Aw, dude. They're so sick. It's just two dudes. Two dudes, no vocals. Oh, okay. Oh it's That's a guitar. He's making that noise with a [ __ ] guitar. >> [music] >> It's [ __ ] nutty. >> [laughter] >> All right, that's sick. All right, what else? >> Okay, you have to go to the drop. What Where is it? It's it's a little 1:30. 1:30. You 1:30. I'll let it play. Here we go. I It's one of those where it is one of the coolest moments I've heard in music in the past like 10 years that I like it's simple, but you'll hear the electronic element to it. But it's so [ __ ] extreme. This is two nerdy kids. What uh nationality are they? I think Leo is French and Marius is Oh, god. Swedish or Finnish Norway One of them's one of the Scandinavian. I think I think Swedish. Right here. This will get you the extra pump at the gym. I don't give a [ __ ] how heavy it is. A guitar. Psycho. Yeah, that's crazy. That's [ __ ] insane. >> Yeah. All right. What else? One more. Oh, [ __ ] Okay, do you know Boundaries? No. Okay. I got to show you Boundaries. So, it's They're a mix of kind of like that 2000 nostalgic stuff with a very modern heavy edge. Uh uh You want something more melodic or heavy? Uh let's go melodic. Uh easily erased. Second one. >> [screaming] >> Very melodic. >> Yes. It has a chorus at least. >> [laughter] >> He goes for it, dude. >> [music] >> Two singers. Yeah. The drummer is clean singing and then the vocalist is screaming. Right on then. Yeah. So, you got the ambience. You got like the melodic kind of hardcore metalcore vibes, and then you get screaming, you get It's >> [screaming] >> It's very that. And then breakdowns, all that [ __ ] dude. Dude. Very good. Very good. The scene continues to live on as [ __ ] old as we get. >> Hell yeah, dude. Oh, [ __ ] yeah. >> I I think you [ __ ] rule. I love your stuff. I'm so glad that you're back. I'm glad you took a break. Thank you. >> also glad that you're back. So, where should people go to check out all the [ __ ] that you've got going on? Uh you'll probably It's be forced to see my face if you listen to breakdown somewhere, unfortunately, on the internet. You might dumbass face will pop up going, "Ooh." Um but, yeah, @nicknocturnal on everything, and uh I'm going to I don't know when you guys drop these, but like in uh in a week or two, we're just getting the studio ready, and we're going to be doing this crazy concept of time Actually, what I was saying earlier, um when I was doing the how to metal thing like >> We're going to be writing songs every day on stream from start to finish with crazy rave lights controlled with the actual songs, and basically that is going to be just content right an entire banger every single day live. No [ __ ] no That's why there's no anything in the background. It's just write the banger right there um from start to finish. >> going to release them? Uh if people want them enough. So, it's going to be based fully on demand. So, I'll probably put them on like, I don't know, someone wants they'll go get it on the like I'll put the demos, whatever, on a Patreon. Someone, "Hey, go There you go. Listen to them if you really like them." But like if it's a song, you know, again that people are like, "Yo, full right now like go right now." Full campaign, I'll do the music video in a [ __ ] room or like in, you know, in the swamp in Florida. We'll figure it out, dude. It's the best idea. I really think, because I would love to see what it what goes into making a track from start to finish. And the fact that you can do it you're doing it with your misses? Um some of them I will. I told them cuz my wife she used to do the content creation stuff a lot more, but she used to do it in Brazil. It's cuz she speaks mainly Portuguese. She speaks English very well though, but like, you know, she she just wants to make music. She She's She's not a talker in terms of like that. >> Bring her Hey, she can be the [ __ ] workhorse. Come up with some nice riffs, do some do some of that stuff for me. I'll I'll explain what's going on. Well, she's going to be producing and own stuff. So, I told her I was like, "Yo, so you're going to make beats and this [ __ ] and do shorts or whatever you want to do, right?" Cuz she wants to like also do She She writes. We both write. I'm like, "Great. Write thing, and then when something goes crazy and you want to do it together, let's go. We'll do it together on stream." And yeah, it'll be crazy. Dude, I'm really happy for you. I'm really happy for you. When you left the world of uh metal and the scene, you basically got eulogies from some of the biggest guys in all of metal, which was pretty hilarious. It was like you died, kind of. Yeah, they never talked to me while I was there, but yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's how it goes, right? >> Well, you're back. You're back, and I'm glad that you're back, and you're [ __ ] awesome, dude. So, let's do this again. Of course, you think I'm not? Love what you do. Love what you do, bro. All right. Goodbye, everybody. Goodbye. Oh, rude. Thank you very much for tuning in. 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