How the Devil Keeps Good Catholics Comfortable | Devil in the Castle Chapter 3 (Part 4)

The greatest trick [music] the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. >> I didn't know this was a fight. That's why you're losing. [music] >> Today we are beginning either to domesticate the devil or else to deny him. He is most [music] powerful when he is denied. >> Welcome to the devil's in the details. The devil may be in the details but God is on the throne. We are continuing uh the devil in the castle book that you wrote St. Terresa of Avala spiritual warfare and the progress of the soul. This is part four just on mansion three or mansion three or chapter three. Well, it's it's onion the third mansion and then but what I've done in the book is >> taken the the third the opportunity at the third mansion to help the reader understand a broader context of the progress of the soul. And so the it's it's broken out in three you know basic phases if you will the purgative, the illuminative and the unitive. And then underneath that there are subfases if you will um let's just call them that for sake of conversation that help the reader understand what does it mean to make progress and and and it's generally accurate. It it's not you know it isn't the soul isn't uh a mechanism like with gears and like a transmission. So, you're in first gear and you know you're in first gear because it says one and you're in your first gear has a range. That's true. That's a comparison. There is a range. But then when you shift, you know you're in second gear and there's no question about second gear in the man in the the three ways. It is fairly true that you can there were distinguishing demarcations if you will that help you to know you're you're in one and not another but they're not as clean as a transmission shifting >> right >> so these are just ways to help you generally understand what it means to be have progress so before you jump go in this just need to this show is sponsored by holy habits app if you haven't checked out that app and you're trying to grow in holiness uh a lot of the wisdom. I'm I was the primary subject manage manager subject matter expert >> behind the app. >> Uh and just go check that out in the uh Apple or Google app stores. >> And what I was going to say was that this being part four of Mansion 3. I think it's really important to go back and listen from the beginning if you are just jumping in now. >> Yeah. It'd be helpful. >> Yeah. because some you know anyone can listen to these episodes out of order and take something from them because of the way that you wrote the book. >> However, to understand the context of the entire conversation, you really should go back from the beginning. And with that, please, you know, uh rate us five stars, comment, all that stuff really helps get the show spread. But >> that was a light ask right there. >> Well, nothing helps more than, you know, you sharing it with someone and telling them to listen. >> Yeah, we need that because we don't have a million dollars to promote the show. And if it's a blessing to you, tell others about it. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, we're moving on to last show we covered mediocre piety, >> which is on page 44 if you wanted to follow along in the book. >> And now we're moving on to stage two. >> Yeah. >> Which is intermittent piety. >> Yeah. Subphase. Yeah. Two. Intermittent piety. So, do you want to read mortal sin? >> Loyal. So, mortal sin. Loyal resistance against mortal sin. habitually avoids the near occasion of sin, deeply regrets sin when recognized, does penance to make reparation, makes adequate confessions with some contrition and purpose of amendment. So, we're in the first, you know, first through the third mansions, we're in the purgative way. And what what it happens is a soul begins as they're going from good to better, they just become more and more aware of their sin. As you said in the last show or we talked about the more you pray, the more you pay attention to the sacraments, the more you engage fully, the more awake you become. In terms of spiritual warfare, the Let me see if I believe that this is true. I'll say it and we'll test it. >> The biggest issue is the lack of awareness. >> Yeah. >> Because if you're not aware, you don't know how to fight. You don't know how to work it. You don't know how to make progress. So that awareness is because you're drawing nearer to God. He opens your eyes more to things he wants you to see, to fight or to engage with or to to embrace like virtue, that sort of thing. So you're more and more concerned about mortal sin. In this case, you regularly avoiding it deeply regret it because you recognize how you're participating in the suffering of Jesus in terms of what he suffered in our in his passion. Uh you don't want to hurt other people. You don't want to hurt yourself. You want to go to heaven. So it's just increasing at this stage. >> Okay. Venal sins. out of out of curiosity, when did that happen to you? >> I remember many instances where I had where I experienced this, but I in terms of I guess it all kind of comes back to my reversion, the time of my reversion. It was probably all around that time. >> But you didn't you didn't experience anything like this before your reversion. >> Well, I mean, I may have, but >> calling you'd call yourself a nominal Catholic before that. >> I barely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I say that now knowing what that actually means. I you know, I don't want to [gasps] I I don't want I don't want to um scare anyone or make anyone feel disheartened, but most people who consider themselves nominal Catholics, my opinion, you can tell me if you think I'm wrong, are fairly nominal, if that. >> Yeah. I mean, this could sound harsh, and I don't mean it to, but I think, you know, if you saw a little kid drinking out of a can that you knew had Coke in it, but you would also put tarpentine in it and you cuz you were doing some funky test mixture to get some, you know, something off of brass or something like that, um, you would you would be kind of harsh. >> Yeah. and urgent in messaging. >> Well, I'm speaking from my own experience and people may say, "Well, that was just you." And but my response would be, "Well, now >> you're connected to way more people than I am." You know, I have >> 35,000 people on Instagram, something like that. >> Do the harder thing. a lot of conversations with a lot of folks and the people I meet at seek in Congress and all these other events and it's not hard to see the same patterns in other people that I went through or they say the same things that I said or live the way that I lived >> and we're not judging here. >> No, no, no. I I'm just using it to say it's not strictly, you know, it's not like I've done a survey, >> but it's not hard to when you go to a parish and I'm trying to think of a way to say this very carefully. Um, we've talked about it before, but how many people go up to receive and how many people are in line for confession? >> The problem is there's not enough people in line for confession and and everybody goes forward. And that's one metric and it's one that you can't even necessarily quantify because maybe everyone went the night before, right? But >> or they're or they're crossing their arms. The current Paris we go to I on Sunday at least I sit in the front row and uh a lot of people go forward with their arms crossed. It's hard for you to tell. >> Yeah. So my point is I think a lot more people are there than they might realize, you know, and as you said, we're not condemning anybody, but there is a reality to folks needing to wake up as I needed to wake up and knowing. It's like we talked about firm purpose of amendment on the last show. If you're not if you don't have a firm purpose of amendment, what are you doing? You know, contrition is tough because there's levels of contrition and mortal sin can affect your ability to be truly uh contrite. Would that be the proper >> Yeah. >> You know, so anyway, maybe that was a rabbit hole we didn't need to go down, but >> No, I don't think it's a rabbit hole. I think it's just we're just struggling with being gentle and I don't know that it's warranted because look you know even even uh Lumigencium I think it's 14 in the documents out of the second Vatican council which is supposed you know supposed to be if if you hear listen to a lot of traditional folks you know stuff that's watered down or problematic whatever even out of the second Vatican council it says that if you don't adhere to all all the teachings things of the church and you don't do so and persevere in them until you die, not only you're going to be judged, but it means going to hell, you're but you're going to incur a stricter judgment, which means >> it's going to be worse for you. So that's just that's a modern church document. Now you go preconceil get a lot more blunt and harsh and clear. I think >> I think our modern times we're actually doing it right now because we're part of the culture which is you know >> just say it. You there's an apostolic letter that came out recently or a document from the Vatican. I'm not criticizing the document, >> but I'm just making a a reflect 22,000 words. >> Yeah. >> So, that's like the length of this book. And I think we're we're we're stuck in this hyper sensitive culture where we want to just be so relational and careful that it the language is too relational and it obscures the truth. So, can I just say it really harshly? >> Sure. friends, if you're if you're playing Catholic to make yourself feel better, you go to mass on Sunday or you go to mass Christmas and Easter, you know, you're in trouble spiritually. I mean, because if you look at scripture, you know what Jesus says you must do is take up your cross daily. >> Um, Matthew 7, which we talk about a lot, which says you're going to in your judgment, you're going to call me Lord. you're going to say, "I did all these things in your name, blah blah blah, and you're not going to make you're going to go to hell." Basically, um, you know, 1 Corinthians 11:27 says that if you if you go forward and you receive the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin, we have unconfessed mortal sin, you're eating and drinking damnation, not, you know, so I just don't I don't think it's loving to be soft on all that. And the reason but and to be soft on us right the reason I think we're struggling is because we understand the difficulty of speaking publicly proclaiming publicly >> in doing it in a way that both resounds the truth but also does it in such a way that for most people it doesn't close them off. >> Right. >> Right. Because you you always talk about the difference between relational language and doctrinal language. And the rule is when you're speaking publicly, it's doctrinal. >> Yeah. >> And [clears throat] someone has an issue with it, you you >> Yeah. Mercy goes way up in gentleness in private conversation. Yeah. >> It's harder in this context because we don't know who's listening and usually I'm trying to anticipate the question because I deal with all the comments on all of our different things. >> Sure. >> And so I've seen how people think. I've been doing it for years. >> By the way, do they think we're harsh on the show? >> No. Well, not that I've seen. People have >> Thank you again for all the comments. They're all usually very Actually, I don't think of >> there's only one, but the guy was clearly a communist and I'm not saying that flippantly. I mean, it was it was very clear. >> Weird. Why would it very obvious? [laughter] >> So, >> and you're not call just I'm sorry. Somebody's going to get distracted by that. >> You're not calling them as a communist as a porative. >> No, no, no. He he that's what I'm saying. He literally was saying we you said something about communism. He was like communism was the greatest thing and blah blah. Okay. So you're you know so he adheres to communist ideology. >> We weren't going to win him over no matter what. >> And why is he in our comments? >> So I mean I hope he's >> right. So so the point is u it's a little bit different in this context where we do want and need to proclaim the truth, you know, but we're also trying to anticipate different questions. And so we're adding in a little bit of that relational nature as we're talking >> which [clears throat] may come across. It requires more words I guess is what I'm saying which is not a bad thing. So anyway, >> good. So I think we've covered mortal sin adequate confessions although that's part of it. Uh so regrets sin does penance to make reparation. >> Can I say one thing real quick? >> Oh yeah. back to nominal Catholics and following what the church teaches. >> I what popped in my head as you were saying that was we have a lot of people who want to pick and choose what the faith is and what it means and what they should and shouldn't do. Real basics you you said uh we need to be this the church says what twice a year for confession. >> Yeah. It's minimum and that >> which is ridiculous. It should be way more than that because here's here's here's a wakeup call. >> You have mortal sin, you die, you go to hell, >> right? Period. >> Right. So once a year is not going to cut it, >> right? >> Especially if you're in the purgative way, right? >> Not going to cut it. >> Um going to mass every Sunday and look that goes back to the first one. If you're not going to mass every Sunday, you're in mortal sin, >> right? >> Well, and then we recently we've had a number of holy days of obligation. >> Yes. Holy days of obligation. If you miss holy days of obligation and then you go to mass on Sunday and receive and you didn't go to confession for committing the moral sin of missing a holy day of obligation as you said. >> And again, here's the relational point because I I just anticipating comments because this happens every single time I talk about a holy day of obligation. If you're sick, if your kids are sick, if you're if there's proper extinuating circumstances that have already been defined by the church, you're okay. You don't need to leave us a comment. Everyone knows, right? you know, right? [laughter] Like, please stop. >> Um, I don't even respond to those anymore. I'm like, yeah, that goes without that goes without saying. You don't need to you don't need to uh justify yourself. You know, I know you feel guilty. That's probably >> okay. >> Because you had to take an aspirin, you shouldn't be commenting about your freedom to stay home, >> right? Um, abstaining from meat on Fridays is another big one that so many people miss. >> Yeah. >> So, I Why do I say all that? Well, we know a really good priest who in his homaly >> awesome. [laughter] >> He was talking about this very thing. >> Mhm. >> Picking and choosing what you want to do and believe. [clears throat] >> And he read something from the catechism and said, "No, I don't want to do that." And tore the page out of the catechism and the homaly >> and threw it away right in front of everybody. >> In front of every And this is a big >> quite large parish. >> Read another one. No, I don't think I want to do that. And threw it away. You don't We're not Protestants. You don't get to do that. You don't get to pick and choose. Okay. So, that's the image I wanted to kind of leave that on before we go to what you were saying with uh adequate confession. >> Yeah. And you know what's interesting about all this and difficult is so many of these comments have [clears throat] background of theology and church teaching that's a mile deep. And you know, one of the problems with people in terms of mortal sin and when should I go receive or not is they actually don't even know what's a mortal sin. One of the biggest ones is um one of the biggest ones is uh contraception. You know, people using contraception >> that is a mortal sin uh that that that needs to be confessed and and it needs you know you need to stop doing it. But how do how do folks know? I have a strong recommendation for you if you wonder am I is read uh Dr. Kevin Vos God rest his soul uh the seven deadly sins and how to overcome them. Most Catholics don't really even know what sin is, what mortal sin is or what venial sin is. If you hang out with us, you'll get clarity on that. >> Yeah. And what I'll also say one of our top posts for the last several months on spiritualdirection.com is something regarding a list of mortal sins. I can't remember the title of the post, but if you go to >> spiritual direction.com, you type in mortal sins in the search, you'll find it. I'm guarantee you will be the one of the first things that pops up. >> So adequate confessions means that you actually follow the teaching of the church. If if you and just briefly, if you go to confession and you're not sorry, it's not valid. If you go to confession, you don't have a firm purpose of amendment, which means you don't have a plan and you know you're going to go right back to the sin. It's not a valid confession, you are not absolved. Yeah. >> Even if the priest says it because he's poorly formed. >> Yeah. >> Whatever. Okay. >> Can I throw one thing in there? >> Yeah. >> Uh just a resource for people because I know that there there's a lot of nuance to that and I found this really helpful. >> If you have the IPA app, there is >> IP ta >> there. If you search, it's somewhere in the prayers area, confession. There's uh culpability in mortal sin, prayer before confession, prayer after confession, frequent confession, and four parts of a confession. >> And it's very good. And it uh it helps you understand because there are also you never teach the scrupulous, right? But there are so many scrupulous people out there who will worry about, well, am I truly sorry? I find that their teaching on contrition is is very helpful to navigate those. >> I've actually found also Ripreer has been very Father Riper has been good on that uh as well. All right, next one. Next category under intermittent piety. We're still in we're still in phase one uh the purgative way. >> Uh venial sin sometimes deliberate puts up a weak fight. Sorrow is only superficial. makes an examination of conscience but without any method preparation or tangible plan of mitigation. >> So you're becoming more and more awake. The big rocks, the big problems are clear to you, but you're not yet cleared out enough of those to begin to see the important but less serious. I like the way I said that. Important but less serious. uh they don't send you to hell is kind of a good >> well what's interesting about that I I can't remember which church father taught this it was probably several of them I want to say it was St. Gregory the Great that I read it from last. But uh the common understanding is that gluttony leads to lust. Meaning glut gluttony obviously can be mortal. But let's just say that you're overeating as a norm. That is a a venial sin and temperance and food and drink. That according to the church fathers is a precursor to any sort of mortal lustful action. Isn't >> that wild? >> Interestingly enough. Yeah. But that's why understanding the venial sin is so important because they're almost always precursors to something more serious. >> It's great that you said that. And and people might say, "Well, why is that?" And the reason is is because when you give in to one aspect of your lower lower nature, your will is orienting to sin, which means it's weakening in terms of its orientation to God. >> When you when you choose God, your will gets stronger toward God. when you choose sin it gets it gets weaker and it gets more and more used for sin. So and in this particular case those two sins the fathers have determined have a relationship uh of that's clo more closely tied in terms of venial to mortal >> and practically it's the flesh right those are two very fleshoriented things whereas some of these other things could be more in your mind and >> all that all right >> so puts up a weak fight sorrow is weak shallow make and examine but without any method meaning at this stage we're not pursuing venial cinch in a structured way. >> Pursuing combating venial sin. >> Yeah. Yeah. Good point. >> So, you're going to an you're you're doing your examine, you're realizing, oh, I badmouththed so and so and then you just kind of move on without any any thought to, you know, how do I avoid that situation in the future? >> I'm curious with you because it it has happened to me even recently. Do you remember the moment when you realized that you had confessed a sin in the past and but you had a deeper realization of how how problematic and destructive it was. >> Yeah. >> That's when that Irish priest cussed me out. [laughter] >> Don't don't condemn all Irish priests. But what happened was Jordan came out of rehab and I don't know if you what you want to call it, but um >> that's a good descriptor of it, I guess. >> And uh he went to confession for the first time after coming out. >> Yeah. And just I had a deeper exactly how you described it. It was well one I remembered things that I haven't previously confessed. And what was interesting was many of them were venal. >> Um but I had remembered them. So technically under confession >> even though I didn't remember them they were covered right by the nature of >> right and also by the penitential right of the mass if you're saying I I confess my sins and I you know >> right >> however I because I remembered them I knew that I I should go take them on their own >> with whatever else I was confess confessing >> and I really had a desire to um just get it all cleared you know cuz even though I knew Like I said, it's take quote unquote taken care of. >> And you're trying to make a big change in your life. >> Why would I not? It's it's no different than doing a general confession. You know, it like you you've already said this stuff big and small. Why are you doing it again? Well, because you recognize that there's some need for you to go and really do a deep clean >> and face it more fully. >> Yeah. It's not like you're being scrupulous. You're just saying, "No, I want to take this one level deeper and let's knock all this stuff out." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I I'm asked that was a big moment in your life, but even recently for me, and I I you know, I don't want to like brag or be presumptuous or whatever, but I don't struggle with mortal sin, but I did recently through some examination come away with, "Wow, I can't believe that I took that so lightly." And it was something like 20 years ago or 10 years ago. and I felt contrition for it and so I need to go take it to confession. >> Yeah. >> So, by the way, well, we'll get to let's put a mark at some point. Let's do some a show on or at least a segment on devotional confession because I know it's going to confuse people. >> Okay. So, moving on to suffering. >> Suffering tolerates it with complaining but with little peace. >> Yeah. But you're just beginning to understand God's sovereign. You're not quite awake fully yet to how he works in and through all things. You're instead of just, you know, being like a little baby and your diapers full and okay, you just automatically scream, scream and cry. This is a little bit better than that. >> And uh alignment with God's will and saying ideally a rightly organized to some degree. >> Yeah. Is saying all right Lord you permitted this. >> So >> all right >> prayer. >> Okay. practices a vocal prayer regularly, not yet firmly resolved to remain faithful to structured meditation, time, place, topic, and material. Often gives up as soon as dryness is felt or as soon as there is business to attend to. >> So to enter into the castle, you've made some kind of commitment to prayer. Typically, it begins with vocal prayer. It it's easy to do regularly, saying in our father every day, but meditation is harder. It is the hardest kind of prayer. Mental prayer is the hardest kind of prayer. And so you you you stumble around, you try it, you don't know if you're doing it right, you read some books about it. My book Into the Deep is is a great resource uh and for beginners. Um often gives up as soon as dryness is felt or as soon as there's business to attend to because you don't understand how important it is. So, you'll cut it short because, oh, I've got to get this work thing done or, you know, whatever. I mean, we're doing the show right now and there's a guy, you know, working on our main water line on on the retreat center. Well, you know, is that important? Yes. Uh, uh, do I need to run intent to it? Pretty soon. But, you know, it's it's just having that sensibility that, you know, this conversation is more important and it really is what we're doing right now. It's not prayer is even more important than this conversation and just protecting that. >> I'm curious because you you're spiritual director. You've been spirit spiritual director for a long time for a lot of different men. Is that some Well, let me frame it this way. I one of the issues that I have with modern men right now is well there's many one of them is without fail you can predict that guys for the most part the vast majority in my experience uh give up prayer quickly as soon as dryness is felt and it drives me insane. Is that something that you've experienced as well or maybe is it maybe it's because I'm dealing with younger guys younger generation. I tend to be dealing with people who are in our community. Okay. Or priests or so they they tend to be more more spiritually mature. >> Yeah. >> So I think you're dealing with people who are earlier stage >> and just don't understand and who are affeminate, right? And and uh meaning they they well you know the definition off the top of your head, so why don't you say it? >> It's a disordered attachment to pleasure and avoidance of doing difficult tasks, >> right? So things get difficult and you're like I don't want to do this. I don't know what I'm doing. you know or perfectionists do this too who are very committed but who will go well I can't do it perfect so I'm not going to do it at all you know so yeah so it's fairly common >> yeah I one of the things that helped I remember distinctly not even not not that long ago I think it may have been last year I kind of had a revelation where I because I set I set a timer right >> and uh I had a I had a morning where I had like a minute left and I I had this realization cuz I internally I'm like okay well you know there's a minute left I'm good but I thought what if Jesus was in front of me speaking to me or our mother >> just get up and walk away you had agreed to meet for a certain time >> right yeah okay listen you know we got a minute you gota you got to I got to go >> you know or I got to close this up I only have a minute left you know it's really kind of profoundly stupid when you when you put it that way. >> Yeah. So yeah, you you've got you've got to commit to it and give yourself to it. And you need to it's not one you need a relationship with Jesus and build that, but it's also strengthening your will. It's also fighting against the enemy who's going to try to get you to cut your prayer short. It's it's super super important. You'll never grow spiritually if you don't get your prayer life in order, right? >> You just never will. >> All right. Examine, practice intermittently. >> We talked about it during the last show pretty well. I mean, I I think I I honestly I struggled with this for a long long time until I developed the idea of the redemptive examine, which we talked about in the last show, which was just, you know, beginning with the three things I'm grateful for. Doing it with my wife, of course, it makes it easier. I do two examines a day, one in the morning, which is detailed, and then the one at night, which is general, uh, the way you described it in the last show. So I think you know if you don't practice the examine you're going to fall asleep spiritually just it's just the way it is. You're going to fall asleep to patterns of sin and that you know leads you into a dark place. So you it's important to keep those lights on. >> It's one of the three and I know I've said it before but it bears repeating every time. It's one of the three non-negotiables. >> Totally non-negotiable >> outside of the sacrament. >> Yeah. >> Non-negotiables are daily mental prayer, daily examine, daily rosary. >> Mhm. I'm with you. uh sacraments, attends mass weekly, and pursues confession at least quarterly. >> Yeah. So, this person is still uh not woken up yet to how powerful the sacraments are, how to participate more fully, and so their commitment is is is strong enough to go to mass every week, but not strong enough to understand the necessity and value of uh more frequent confession. If you if you struggle with habitual mortal sin, you need to go to confession every time that happens, right? >> You know, and I know that may sound excessive, but it's not. So, in the next show, what we're going to do is we're going to talk up through sustained piety um level three in this [clears throat] phase one of the purgative way. Uh what page 45 remember the show is sponsored by Holy Habits. Check that app out and it really will help you to uh grow spiritually. And um also like and share the show. We need your help getting the word out >> in comments. >> Oh yeah. You know what? Tell us if you know if you want us to ask answer questions about what we've talked about here. Oh yeah. >> Put it in the comments. We're happy to do that. In fact, we really like doing that. >> And I do I'm the one who runs all the comments and I do take notes of uh the requests that people have put in. So, if you want to get in touch with especially on Spotify, I'll say this actually. I don't check if there's any comments on iTunes. I forgot that that platform even existed or Apple Podcasts. It doesn't exist in my brain. >> Spotify though, >> I watch all those the YouTube comments, all that kind of stuff. So, if you've sent in a question, I do keep it in the list for us to get to. >> But, we would double ask you that if you put a comment and you have a question, uh, that you make sure you like and subscribe and share, uh, so that we go to the effort of helping you. you help us. But I if the show helps you, help us. You ought to do that or you're going to hell. That's not true. I'm just kidding. >> Romans 16:20, the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. Grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. Amen. >> Amen.