How Spain Was Able to SHUT DOWN Lionel Messi & Argentina!

Greg, let's start with you here. What what was your big takeaway from from yesterday's 1-0 win for Spain and they claimed their second ever World Cup title? >> Um you know, it was a tough game, a tough game on the viewers. Um very competitive game, not a lot of space, not a lot of offensive um creativity. But Spain in the end, what I really love about them and my big takeaway is just how calm and how poised they stayed. You know, there was a lot going on. Argentina was provoking them all game and they stayed calm and and eventually got the breakthrough through. And it really shows, I think, the work over the last, you know, 15 20 15 to 20 years that Spain has done. Um believing in their game model, believing in a way to develop their players and I think it's really good for soccer that Spain won this this World Cup. >> I'll follow up on that, certainly. Um when we look at Spain, we appreciate the football. Um we appreciate the fact that the star was the team in a World Cup where we we focus so much on big names. When all is said and done, um for Spain, yes, they have many great players, but it all came out in the collective and that's a credit to what's been going on in Spain for a long time and there's so many names that you could mention that were part of the development. You can talk about Aragones, you can talk about Johan Cruyff. Uh you can move on and talk about Pep. The we couldn't cover all the names. And and in Spain, uh we give credit also to Barcelona and La Masia, but the the Basque clubs and Real Sociedad and Athletic Club and and just what goes on in a country where where they love football and their their culture to develop players and develop coaches. Uh it's I think something that we can can learn from. >> Well, I'll I'll I'll continue the conversation there. I am absolutely amazed at the dominance of Spain in this tournament. And you know, at the end of the day, I guess we could say the second best team was France, but the the dominance over over both Argentina and France is very impressive. If Spain was a little bit better in the final third of the field and could have created a few more quality chances, they could have run away with that game. And it didn't deserve an overtime in my opinion, and it would have been a shame if that game went to penalty kicks. So, the best team clearly won this World Cup. The next best team is a big question mark at this point, but outstanding World Cup for Spain and conceding one goal in eight games is remarkable. So, give them a lot of credit. They're worthy >> Cup record seven shutouts, Bruce, right? I mean, they we love to say defense wins championships in other sports and and it clearly translated this summer on the World Cup stage. >> Right, and I know their goalkeeper was the the goalkeeper of the tournament, but I you know, I'm not sure he made a save yesterday. >> He didn't do much. >> Argentina's first shot was in the 117th minute. Like, so what what happened? What happened, Bob? What happened to Argentina yesterday? Did they just get Spained, if that's even a way to describe it? >> Uh 100% Spain is just hard to play against, and we said it in one of the earlier shows. They're the easiest team to analyze and the hardest team to play against. And what that means is when they have the ball, they control the game. And their ability to push another team back and suffocate them. And [snorts] their positioning as they're attacking, rest defense ideas mean that when they lose the ball, they can counter press right away and regain possession. And uh they're a very, very difficult team to play out against because of the way they attack. And they're also a very difficult team to press. And that would be especially true for Argentina because with all the credit we give to Messi, uh the ability for Argentina to step up higher and press a little bit is not going to be so easy um given that that that's not something Messi's going to add to in in many real ways. And so, you give all the credit to to Spain because they're so hard to play against. And then you also just have to say that when when all is said and done, we gave a lot of credit to Argentina throughout the tournament um for the passion and for the way they play for Messi, but yesterday was a little bit of the worst of Argentina. Um there wasn't a real commitment to attack. Certainly, as Greg already mentioned, they they wanted to make the game uh choppy, they wanted to provoke. Um a guy like Paredes comes on at halftime and honestly, I think he had 50 fouls and three to four yellow/reds. And it it it it says something that on the day, whether it was stated or not, they didn't think they could beat Spain by actually playing football. They needed to think They thought more about hanging in there and maybe making a play late or going to penalties, but it didn't make for a great final. >> I thought it was always going to be difficult Yeah, it was always going to be difficult for for Argentina the way Spain was pressing and Argentina really not having a lot of speed. I mean, maybe Simeone's the only one with with some pace in the attack. So, that was that was always going to be difficult. Spain presses so well with you know, adding a midfielder to the top players to press. And then um you know, I just thought that it was really surprising that Lautaro didn't come on at any stage of the game. I mean, that to me is is shocking. You would think that you you would get him on the field somehow. >> Yeah, I think once Argentina had a player sent off, they were they were playing for penalties. You know, and and they almost got there. >> Rob, we got your fav- favorite stat. XG was 0 0 0. Everything was zero for Argentina in the game. I was thinking at one point, like can Argentina win this game on penalties without having a shot on goal? >> I I was thinking yes. I was in the stadium. I was like, well, that's just kind of the way it's gone for Argentina. Like they they've been on that razor's edge throughout the knockout stage, right? Goals in the 111th minute, 92nd, 112th, 92nd again getting there. And you're like, how how much longer can they sustain living like that? And they couldn't. They got extinguished yesterday. >> Right. What was the the possession statistic in this game? It was like probably close to 80%. It's crazy. >> Uh let's talk about let's talk about Lionel Messi. Go ahead. >> I'm I'm I just want to make I think Argentina would have tried to attack if they could keep the ball. I I think the the pressure from Spain was clearly the difference in the game. I mean, it's not that Argentina didn't try to play. They couldn't. And Spain's pressure pressure was incredible. >> Rodri and transition, unbelievable. >> You you know, Bob, you and I were there. I I remember particularly in the first half, how many times I saw Argentina as they tried to quote-unquote build out of that getting pushed negative and literally with their back to their teammates and they felt like they kept putting their own players in worse situations. Again, I think that was credit to Spain, but Argentina could hardly find a way out of it and they felt like they just kept going negative, negative, and then had to just send a long ball out just to like icing the puck basically to like catch a breath and regroup. And then here comes the next the next attack from Spain. >> Um yeah, I would differentiate two things. Uh again, we've talked a lot about counter pressing. And so certainly when Spain has the ball and they push you deep and then they lose and then they have so many numbers right around the ball and they press and react so fast. Those situations are are so difficult. But there are other moments where it's not a counter pressing situation and and Argentina is or excuse me, Spain is still going to step up and press. Greg mentioned one of the midfielders stepping higher and they've got their ideas on how they want to press in some of the set situations. But I thought Argentina was slow and predictable. And so whenever you're preparing a team, certainly the idea that here's how they're going to press us and now what are our ideas in terms of our movements? How do we try to create some ways that they are not on top of every play? But if it's slow and easy to read, then the pressing team just pushes the other team back and ultimately wins the ball or forces a long ball. And that's what we saw most of the first half. >> Yeah, really no threats also. >> Yeah. Let's talk about Lionel Messi. To me it looked like Greg, he was almost in a haze for a majority of this game. And I understand that we've grown accustomed to accepting his style of play. And it's walking and it's viewing. But there were times, particularly when they went down a man, where I was saying, "Hey Leo, you know you guys are only at 10. Can I get a little a little defensive effort, a a little more work. It was an uncharacteristic messy type performance that will most likely be his international curtain call. >> I just it's difficult for him to do it alone at his age, right? I mean completely alone, right? Anytime he gets the ball and wants to dribble, there's two Spanish defenders there and it's going to be very very difficult for him. He doesn't have the separation over distance that he used to have, but you know, I wasn't there live in the stadium, but I do remember a play. I think it was in in the first half of the game where Messi's back at the top of his box, you know, and and cleared a ball or made a defensive play and that really surprised me. But I think we just have to get used to like when they're down a man or normal in in in defensive shape, he's not going to do a ton. He's not going to do a lot of running and that's what he's been doing all tournament. So to me it wasn't atypical. It was it was normal for Messi. >> So here's the question and then I don't have a good answer. You're the coach, Scaloni, and you're preparing for Spain. Would there ever be a part of that discussion that includes that we've been able to get this far, but for this game, here's what has to change? And and could that include the idea that you're saying to Messi, come on, in this game, we've got to make sure that that we're all working a little bit more when we lose the ball or when we step up. And and look, it's easy to say no, it's Messi. We just we we just let it go, but it's an interesting thought because on the day the way they chose to play, the odds that they could win that game playing like that were were minimal for me. >> Bob, let me ask you this. Who's Who's the most athletic team in the World Cup? You'd say France, right? >> I would say France, yes. >> And France couldn't get the ball from Spain. So even if you ask Messi to try to get the ball, he he's not going to They're not going to do it. It's impossible. And and why waste energy trying? Why waste energy trying? >> Can you play Messi up >> There's truth to that, but do you think No, but hold on. Let's Let's go back to France. >> Yeah. >> Do you think that that when it comes time to step up on other teams, that's their strength? >> I mean, they've they did it at times in the World Cup, but no, it's not their strength. Clearly not their strength. But it wouldn't be it wouldn't be Argentina's strength, either. That's That's my point. And to ask Messi to do that, I think is a futile exercise. >> Could you stick Messi up the field as a false nine? Keep him high and central. >> That's sort of what they do at times because >> what they do. Yeah. >> Well, he Julian Alvarez ends up coming back and defending and Messi is the one that stays up there even when they were down a man. >> Exactly. >> And he hangs out still in the in in his favorite space on the field. So, it's hard for him to even get involved in the attacking in that game. And I think in the case of France, just in the case of France, though, at least they had the option when they did win the ball, they had some pace to try to get behind Spain. Argentina had none of that. >> Yeah, I totally agree. Greg made that point as well, and I think you guys are spot on. And and again, when you talk about pressing Spain, don't mistake me. It's not like any team can step up and press them on every play for the whole game. That's impossible. All right? And it would only be a decision that you can pick certain moments where you can try to balance it out. And and and certainly when you play against a team like Spain, it not that anybody counts on pure possession, but the idea that you can find ways to balance the game out a little, play in their end a little bit more, make it a little bit harder in certain situations for them to do exactly what they want and hope then that you can still when you get forward threaten them a little bit. Those are your Those are your challenges. They're all very difficult and and and we can go back and forth for the rest of this call about whether we want to give all the credit to Spain because I think all of us agree they're a great team or if we're also going to say the opponent has to have some ways to try to challenge it better than we saw yesterday. >> Yeah, can you play more direct against Spain and and and make them face their own goal a bit and press them and move your team, make it harder instead of playing in front of them all the time? >> You know, I think with Martinez, Martinez, Alvarez and Messi up top and play 4-3-3 and try to try to pack the middle of the field, right? Have those guys stay high and counter attack. I mean, that that could be interesting. But it's a lot easier for us to sit here on Monday and say that. >> Sure, right. Yeah. Right. Cuz we all have >> final >> In a final, it's interesting playing England in the final anyway, right? >> That's true. We'll get to that in a minute, but just to to to end it, in a final the first responsibility you have as a coach is to try to figure out how to win. We all agree on that. Uh but there's also a part where there's a responsibility in a smaller way for what's the game going to look like. And when when you get to a final, we're all hoping that we see a really good game where teams test and push push each other. But there's been many many other World Cup finals. When Spain won in 2010, it wasn't a great game. When Argentina lost to Germany in 1990, it was a terrible game. So, uh this is not anything that is completely new. >> Yep. >> That's true. >> At any point did you guys think Messi was going to get subbed off? >> Never. >> I never going to >> happen. >> Okay. Should he have been subbed off? >> No. >> Greg makes a great point about Lautaro and and I don't know whether he was completely healthy. We've not read anything uh and whether there was a reason that he didn't come on, but it it's certainly made sense yesterday to get him on the field at some point. Um but when all is said and done and it's 1-0, there's two chances that come late and both of them are starting with Messi. And and so the idea that he can still produce something and and on the first one uh Spain on the lateral free kick just falls asleep and then they create this advantage and when the ball gets played across, man, Cubarsi makes an incredible play. >> Yeah. >> and then the other one is is the shot that Simeone hits over. Um but when when all is said and done uh I agree with Greg that if he was healthy, we needed to see Lautaro come on the field yesterday. >> And you think about this game >> Yeah. >> How many real quality chances did Spain have in the game? They had some good headers, right? But think about that. >> point, Bruce, they had a lot of shots, but how many of them are really threatening, right? They were so many of them were right at Emi Martínez, it felt like. >> And you have a goalkeeper who can't catch the ball. >> Yeah. >> broken finger. And it's a >> Yeah, the Greg's talking about Merino's header. >> Yeah, exactly. >> I I thought he was getting the winner again. That was a great chance. >> If you're the coach of Argentina and you're seeing this whole thing play out and now you're in the first overtime and it's still 0-0, like part of you has to say, I'm we're just trying to get to penalties. You know, so that's why I can understand why Lautaro did you know, probably didn't go on the field. You're just saying, whatever we can do, let's just try to get We have 15 more minutes here, guys, to get it to penalties." I remember that there was a huddle, right? Didn't they show the huddle on TV in the before the second overtime? And Messi's like the first one in the huddle, like really paying attention to what the coach is saying. And I can imagine it's like we have 15 more minutes, we may steal this thing. Let's just go for it. The way the tournament had played out, the concept of Argentina stealing it did not feel far-fetched. >> Exactly. >> Right. Right. By any By any stretch you were like they haven't had a shot until the 117th minute, yet they might win this game. In fact, before that I was saying, "They might win a World Cup without having a shot, period." cuz it seemed pretty realistic that they weren't going to get one off at that point. >> Yeah, you would think they just parked the bus and and get the penalty. >> Yeah. >> Uh