"How Shall We Then Live - Panel Discussion" | KFW 2025

Well, it's a pleasure to be here with all of you this evening and I want to welcome all of you to this uh panel discussion. My name is Joe Kurtz and I'm here with my wife Doreen and eight children and we live in Granby, Massachusetts and are part of the Disciples Fellowship congregation there. And uh my wife and I also have a breakfast and lunch cafe in downtown Amherst called Coronation Cafe. We'd love to serve you there at some point. So again, welcome here. We welcome your contribution and I'll tell you in a few minutes how you can how you can do that. So as as has been already mentioned the title for this panel discussion is how shall we then live? It's a question. How shall we then live? What goes through your mind when I ask that question? This question echoes to us from the book of Ezekiel chapter 34 and verse 10. Almost word for word. Listen to what is written here. Listen to what God says through the prophet Ezekiel. Ezekiel 34:10. And you, son of man, say to the house of Israel Thus Thus have you said, this is God speaking to Ezekiel. Thus have you said, "Surely our transgressions and our sins are upon us and we rot away because of them. How then can we live? Say to them as I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?" In response to the Israelites' lament for their sin, God reminds his people that he does not take pleasure in the death of his people and he invites them instead to repent and to turn from their evil ways and live. We have gathered here this weekend to reflect on the story of the Anabaptists to pause and to consider where we have come from and where are we? And where are we headed? There is reason to rejoice, there is reason to give thanks for the for the good things that we experience. There is also reason to lament to turn back and to repent. What will be the story of the next 500 years? You get to be part of it. And so this is the question that we raise on this panel, how then shall we live? So next I'd like to introduce the men and the topics and also the framework. So in an attempt to answer that question of how then shall we live we have four men here and four short topics where they will have the opportunity to wrestle with that question. We have chosen a verse taken from First Corinthians chapter 16:13. It's a short verse. It has four parts to form the framework for this conversation and here is how it goes in the King James version. Watch ye stand fast in the faith quit you like men, be strong. For a little more nuance, I'll read it to you in the ESV. It says, "Be watchful stand firm in the faith act like men be strong." We're using the We're using the KJV to form the subtitles. Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong. Now next I'd like to tell you a little bit about the panels here, the the the panelists that we have here so you know that a little bit about who they are and that they are that they are human just like just like you. A few weeks ago we had a Zoom meeting and uh we were talking together on Zoom and talking about some of these things some of which we will hear coming out, I believe. And what I did not realize when I was speaking with them there is that these men are all giants. We were meeting on Zoom. I was not aware that but when I stood here this afternoon, I think I was looking up to every one of them. So So they're giants, that's the first thing I want to say. And uh welcome here. Harold Troyer has the first section of that verse I read to you and that is watch ye. Brother Harold lives in Belleville, Pennsylvania with his wife Larissa and seven children. He works as a communications director for All Nations Bible Translation and he has written a book called Fatherless which tells the story of his wife's life. He is also working on another book about a people group that's sometimes referred to as the Ukrainian Amish. He enjoys flying and studying anthropology. So welcome here, Harold. We're going to have you come up here in just a few minutes and and share what you have prepared but next I have seated here to his left Brandon Byler. Brandon Byler and his wife Heather live in Shippensburg, Pennsylvania with their five children and they are part of the Shippensburg Christian Fellowship and he does roofing and pole barn construction for his work and the last time I spoke with Brandon he was zooming in from Ireland where he was teaching at a Bible school there. He also enjoys reading. So welcome, Brandon. And your section here, if I didn't mention that already, is the second part of the verse that says, "Stand firm in the faith." So welcome here, Brandon. Next to his left I have brother Harry is here and uh Harry lives with his wife in Virginia Beach Virginia where he teaches part-time at the university. Not having children of their own, him and his wife minister to international students in their home. He can may have mentioned that in his talk last night as well. He Harry is also involved in building a discipleship camp that is focused on building character in West Virginia called Peaceful Meadows. He also enjoys sailing, swimming, running and biking. So welcome here, Harry. We'd like to see you do some of that tonight. Your section is quit you like men. As I read in the ESV it says, "Act like men, quit you like men." That's Harry's section. To his left we also have Kai and Kai has spoken this afternoon here as well. Kai lives in southern Kentucky with his wife Katrina and their six children. He is a deacon at the Marrowbone Christian Brotherhood in Burkesville, Kentucky. They raise chickens and he also owns a company that builds and equips chicken houses. Kai enjoys singing a lot and he has sung in the past with the Esch family. You may be familiar with the Esch family both before and after the tragic accident that claimed the eight lives from the Esch family. So welcome here, Kai. It's good to have you part of the panel discussion. So how are we going to do this? How are we going to conduct this panel? Just a minute, I'm going to invite Harold to come up and he is going to present for He'll have about 7 minutes to to present the remarks that he has prepared and then he is going to sit down and Brandon will come up and give the remarks that he has prepared and we're going to move through each one like that. So they'll they'll come up here and share their piece that they have prepared and then they'll sit down. And after each of those each of those men do that then we're going to engage in dialogue just among the panelists themselves. So again, we'll start here with Harry and the panelists will engage with him around the content that he shared and with and then Brandon and Harry and so forth and that um until we complete that with Kai. Okay, and then there's one more one more part to this whole event and that is how you can contribute. For the last 30 minutes we plan to take questions that have come in from you all. So, if you have a a pen and paper or a device you can submit questions with pen and paper. There's a box in the back and I would suggest that you get those in earlier on. I don't know how late he'll check the box, but you can submit them online if you have a device. Just go to the website, go to the panel discussion and you can select which panelists you would be aiming your particular question at. So I hope that that that that is clear how that will be conducted and at this time I will sit down and invite Harold to come up here. Who should be watching? Every father should be watching. Protecting his wife and his children spiritually, warning them of danger. Job watched said he sacrificed for his children just in case they had sinned against God. Every pastor, every church leader should be watching. They are under shepherd to the flock. This isn't optional. If fathers and pastors don't watch, then no one else will. Why should we be we be watching? Because we have an enemy. First Peter 5:8 says that the devil walks about like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour. But he also comes as an angel of light. Not just to cause fear but to deceive. That's my call on the same deception. Satan's goal is to distract, to dull to destroy and to de-God. Oh. How do we stay watchful? I think a primary part is through humility. Yes, through I I fast, pray. I think that's a part of it. Knowing the word of God, handling the real things so we can easily spot characters according, knowing God himself, walking with God. Keeps awake to his sayings and warnings and understanding what dulls us, the world's noise and pleasures and to dull us. So, what have we watched? Well, I've three things. But the world is not the problem. The world has always been a world ungodly, violent, un- Everything about the world has always been that way, but the problem comes in the church is the issue. Three things I think about this evening could be slumber, could be apathy and it could be deception. I get the thought of deception. It spells sad. Sad Christianity. Sleeping Christians. Now, what causes these things? One of the questions I ask sometimes is, how do you know you're awake? How do you know you're awake? Are you awake this evening or are you dreaming? How do you know? I had a vision recently of churches filled with people and they're all sleeping. Some causes for sleeping Christians I think could be non-resistance. Non-resistant. They're non- They don't resist evil. The scripture says resist the devil. Few people come here. Hiding in the way of evil, resisting ungodliness. We should be non-violent. We should not be non-resistant. Materialism and wealth comfort. Satan is rocking us to sleep with a comfortable style. Technology uncontrolled access to technology causing spiritual slumber. Apathetic Christians. The scripture says God will spew them out of his mouth. The causes for apathy could be the cares of this life, business. We're we're very busy people. Uh being fearful. I think fear is a is a part of the the problem today. Uh years ago was a class I was a workshop uh with Northview Pentecostal Church and sitting in that class and brother was sharing uh one of the need for missionaries to Peru. I had to reach the Quechua people group in the mountains there and they were saying that let's don't remember everything he said. But I do remember that brother Dale Faisey was speaking of this and sharing the perhaps needing to give your life for this and perhaps even your blood. Would this this work? Well, I remember walking out of that class, that workshop and a young man beside me chuckles to himself and says, you won't catch me going there. Never forgot that. Do you plan to give your life for the sake of the gospel of Jesus Christ? I do. The sec- third thing I think of is deceived Christians. A person deceived doesn't know he's deceived. Causes for deception? Covetousness. We label it godliness. Good stewardship. Christ bought the covetousness. We then trade my groceries. Tiny compromises, small course changes that over time lead us far off track. And then I think of the results as being deception, the snare. Jesus says in Matthew 24 that there will be a time or era so deceptive that even if it were possible that even the very elect will be deceived. How to prevent this? Loving God with all your heart, soul and mind. Worshipping God, fearing God, obeying God, loving your neighbors yourself, the least of all these, widows and refugees, the least of these, having a deep love for mankind. And then number three, watching and praying always. Luke 21:34-36. Through 36. I'll read that yet. But take heed to yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the cares of this life. And that day come upon you unexpected for it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man. I'm sure I didn't cover all the aspects of this. So, I'm writing a book based on this study. 20,000 words in 7 minutes is not possible. So, this panel isn't about clever answers. It's about waking the church. We need men who see the danger. Who blow the trumpet in Zion and say we're awake, we see what's coming and by God's grace we'll stand. Thank you. Paul's statement is clear. He says watch, stand fast in the faith. Various Bible translations are also very clear. Be alert, be on guard, keep your eyes open, stand fast, stand firm in the faith. The scriptural warning is clear and yet how do you know if you're standing firm in the faith at this very moment? How do I know if I'm standing firm in the faith? Perhaps we're drifting. Perhaps we're shifting. Perhaps the current is already sweeping us away. How What does it mean to stand fast in the faith in 2025? The main thought that I leave with you this evening is this. If you would stand firm in the faith, you must join a close, close in proximity clear countercultural community of kingdom believers. If you would stand firm in the faith you must join a close clear countercultural community of kingdom believers. I'm aware that not everyone here this evening you would call yourself an Anabaptist and you are welcome here. My remarks particularly and my application are for those of us who consider ourselves conservative Anabaptists. The rest of you are welcome to listen in and share your feedback as you wish. There are three inferences that I made from Paul's warning here. The first one is connection. His statement is for those who are in the faith. He's presupposing that we are filled with the Holy Spirit and that we are walking with God in all the light that we know how as a disciple of Jesus Christ. We're connected to the vine. This is non-negotiable. He's also speaking of a current here. He's indicating that we will face constant pressures to slide from the faith and that current is relentless. It does not stop. Where do the pressures come from? They come from the world, the flesh, our own desires and the devil. Popular culture which is the dominant culture of North America along with many churches have dismissed worldliness, fleshly issues and the devil in one fell swoop. But I'm here to tell you tonight they are all alive and well. They are all presenting us with a current, with pressures that are relentless. Worldliness, of course, has always opposed godliness. And in that way we are facing the same things that the apostles and the early Anabaptists faced. And yet the old worldliness shows up with new manifestations. And so the old godliness must respond with new applications. What are some of the differences between the culture in which we find ourselves and the culture of the early church and the early Anabaptists? Perhaps the biggest difference that I would like us to think about is what I would call for the early church and the early Anabaptists a a persecution culture. Where they lived expecting to be under definite fierce opposition for their beliefs versus we who find ourselves in what I would call a pleasure culture. A culture where we are tolerated, even celebrated, and people appreciate by and large Christianity. It's a very different culture. It's a very difficult culture in which to stay faithful. In a persecution culture we do our best to blend in without denying the truth of God's word. In a pleasure culture, we do our best to stand out without with my with doing our best not to add to the word of God, but to be strong and stay faithful in this culture. The novelist Flannery Flannery O'Connor once advised, "Push as hard as the age that pushes against you." And I would add to that, "Push where the age is pushing against you." If you're from North Korea or Afghanistan or India, it's likely you're going to have different cultural pushes than what we are facing as North American Anabaptists. What is the spirit of the age here in North America? Ken Myers notes that the spirit of popular culture, which is the dominant culture continues to be the spirit of youth culture. It is suspicious of authority, of the past. It is allergic to formality. It is impatient with the limitations of propriety and fearful of being perceived as uncool. To be young today or stubbornly to think of oneself as young is to see life as all possibility and no necessity. When you think about the spirit of this age, there are so many things that characterize it, of which we must be aware and watchful. The whole matter of convenience, easiness, comfort the reason why most of us choose to carry a smartphone. We can give all sorts of arguments for it, but they basically all boil down to one thing, and it is convenience. The opposition to authority, the dismissal of institutions, the denial of responsibility to a larger group, these are the things pressing in upon us by the culture at large. Additionally, we are facing the challenges of social media, artificial intelligence, the 24/7 availability of entertainment and distractions of sinful material that's available on every hand, feminism, transgenderism, expressive individualism, I make my own rules, I do my own thing, and you must affirm it. In addition to overthrowing authority, there's the tearing down of institutions, conventions, traditions at every level. At the levels of government, at the levels of the church, the home, and yes, even the individual is under attack. We have worldly churches and worldly Christians, and this includes those who appear plain, but they are worldly in heart and have no place for brotherhood agreements, for wise application of truth to current issues. Their language is legalism, heavy-handed authority, and you can't tell me what to do. I'd like you to take stock of just one of these pressures that is against us. Individualism is the acid that is dissolving the bonds of brotherhood in our churches. And until we deal with that issue, we are going to have a hard time developing strong brotherhood. I think many of you have experienced that. You struggle with that. It's been a a a grief to you. And I express the need for us to see it for what it is, to call it out and by God's grace to deal with it. It is impossible to build a strong brotherhood where there is no appreciation for covenant, for community, for yieldedness, for submission, for tradition. We've talked about connection, current A third inference in this text is community. Paul was writing to a group of people, not an individual. Our best hope for remaining steadfast is with other people. 2 Timothy 2:22 says, "Flee youthful lust, but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart, together." Together. Too many fathers are sitting off to the sidelines with their family because nobody out there believes just like we do. And so we're going to have home church. I'm not against house church, but I am against home church. Let me explain this or say this, it may sound a bit heretical, but I really do think that God would rather have you join a group who is doing things wrong by your standards than to sit off by your family and do everything right. We've been designed to connect with a group, brothers and sisters. And what I appreciate about plainness is the power of plainness is that it is related to a group. We would see ourselves as simple people, people who love simplicity. And yet simplicity can be expressed in a thousand ways, and individualism can thrive in the midst of simplicity, but plainness is a function of a group. Plainness arose organically from a group response to worldliness in the past several hundred years, first through the Quakers. Plainness is about a lot more than clothing, but it is certainly not less than that because clothing is vital, because it's the only thing we engage with more consistently than our cell phones. That's the power of clothing. Plain clothing, such as the cape dress for women and the plain suit for men, is genius for at least two reasons. Here's the genius of it. Number one the expectation of this attire will surface selfishness and individualism faster than you can imagine. Strong brotherhoods are only possible as we expose and deal with the acid of individualism as quickly as possible, and I know of nothing that will surface it more quickly than plain attire and the expectation and requirement of it. I'm not judging anybody. I'm not here promoting a personal agenda. Plainness is a group agreement. No single church, no single individual decided what plainness was going to be. But there is a group understanding. I know of nothing else that touches individualistic self-focus faster than plain dress. There may be some things. I am open to the fact that the plain suit is not necessary to surface individualism, but I want to hear what it is, and I want to see you implement it in your church. The second genius of plain dress is that it is powerful for shaping and reshaping our identity in a wholesome way. And that is why the people and groups who disregard the power of plain attire almost all go on to demonstrate how powerful it is by adopting for themselves all sorts of other expressive individualistic clothing, which is largely from the culture. Unity is more than uniformity, but it does require a basic measure of uniformity for any sort of ongoing, credible witness of separation from the world. It's ironic, but I have heard men deride uniformity and then go on to decry the divisions in conservative Anabaptist world. Brothers, we can't have it both ways, okay? I am here to laud the individual local brotherhoods who choose to be plain and separate in their unique way. Whether you're German Baptist or River Brethren or Old Order Mennonite or unaffiliated Mennonite. You have to build the kingdom within a cultural context. And so why not choose the conservative Anabaptist context? Unity is much more than uniformity, but it will never have less than a basic uniformity of some sort, especially at the brotherhood level. And so I'm talking about appreciating our differences as various brotherhoods, and yet maintaining a clear, credible, not perfect, but a credible separation from the world in our lifestyle, our money, our materials, our our clothing, our cars, and everything. Maintaining that for the glory of God. We must stand firm in the faith, and yet as the next verse says, Paul tells us that all that you do be done with love. In closing, if you and future generations are going to stand firm in the faith, I believe that you must join a close in proximity, clear, countercultural community of kingdom believers. Well, my word is quit you like men, that portion. And the uh Greek interlinear, I I use it quite a lot. Just to rephrase that statement just interlinear passages be vigilant, as we we've heard. Stand firmly in the faith. And mine the word andresizesto the Greek is be manly. You look at it, one way of saying it is man up. Now, what's interesting is I went through translations of the scripture lots of translations of the scripture, and I found about 50% of the translations of the scripture don't use the word man there. Even the New King James, I was sort of surprised. Doesn't use the word man. Something happened over the last couple of centuries to take this word of God. It's It's It is manly. That's the word that's in there. Be manly. Something happened where we have translations now that avoid that word man. Well, what happened? Well has to do with world view influencers. Now, world view is the lens through which a lens that's almost like a lens for your eyes or your glasses. The lens through which we um observe the world and the lens through which we engage the world. What we we take in and we're we're interpreting the world through our world view and then we engage it and what we think we have this way of thinking how we're going to engage it. One of the problems of world view is that as you both observe the world or engage the world, your own world view gets changed. It gets shaped by what you take in. Now, we've been under quite a influence. We have lots of world view influencers. Of course, a word out there now are internet influencers or YouTube influencers or all these influencers. Lots of these, you know, 22-year-olds with all of the wisdom they have. They're out there influencing the world on the internet. We'll just uh touch on a couple of the influences that the church has had to deal with these world view influencers. Right at the time of Christ, we had the Roman Imperial system, basically a pagan state worship. Jesus is Lord was punishable by death cuz the creed of that Imperial Roman Empire was Caesar is Lord and moved to the Holy Roman Empire which was a Christianized, basically, pagan state worship. We can I don't have time to outline each one of these. It moves on to the regaining of a biblical world view and in a larger sense with the Reformation and what we have our root roots in here. Temporary, if you I would say, where theological logic theologically and logical justification is an important echoes out there and along right tailing that, we have the Renaissance as they translated the Bible and brought brought forth the um the Reformation. They started translating the classic documents of the Roman and Greek era and we had the Renaissance which was a return to paganism, a return to pagan world view. Comes up to this day, Renaissance festivals are pagan wildness. But on the tails of that and overlapping that, we have the Enlightenment world view influencing everything in which everything had to be logical, uh scientifically proved and so on and we move into the modern era which lasted up until the mid-1800s-ish at that time frame and starts to go into decline. And then we um But but in that time, we have one more popped up and I I call it the revolutionary world view starting with the in the late 1700s, primarily with the French Revolution. And that is a cast off authority, overthrow, in fact, execute authority. This mob rule that went into effect. And uh then we have uh on the tail end of that and the reducing of modernity, we have this now post-modernity that we're in. This post-modern world view. Now, my argument is that a lot of that came from the entertainment industry. Because in entertainment industry, you can fake everything. You can break all rules. Every rule, sociological rule, gravity's broken, cause and effect thrown out the window and it grew up this world view of of cast off all sorts of logic, fact and logic and reasoning almost out the door. Almost out the door. And then we have sort of in the tail end of that or summary and we're living in the summary of this this postmodernism is this critical approach. It's it's this um we had higher criticism in the 1800s when we were where we were criticizing revelation using the revelation, not the book of revelation, the revelation from God, criticizing it using our modernistic techniques. Now, we throw everything out. We criticize everything. The critical approach to research, challenging existing social power structures and uh meta equa- equalities by questioning knowledge assumptions and dominant ideals, a method of that aims to transform society and promote social justice. All these things. A lot of it's gobbledygook. Give me hear about it. But it's taken root. Came from from the Frankfurt School. These bunch of pointy heads, I guess. And uh one book called the social construction of reality by a guy named Peter Berger which just turned things upside down and someone mentioned it this this well, how do we know anything? Are we a brain in a vat? All the things that come in and actually everything we know is just socially constructed. All rules, everything we have. And so we're we're in that phrase which really leads to deconstruction. It's a deconstruction of everything. Everything we we we're we're we're throwing out. Now, coming back to that word, why we didn't use man in that in these 50% or so of the translations. Well, there's this assault on manhood. We're in the middle of this assault on manhood. This thing called feminism. Now, in Oh, I forgot to bring them over. Can you bring those two books that are they're under the the Bible? I was just teaching we're we're teaching through um First Corinthians and First Corinthians 11, read two books. Started with one very interesting book um a cover for glory by reformed guys discovering, lo and behold, the head covering. Getting interesting this happens now and then. And it's all it's good to read these people to listen to them going through this. Wow, how about that? And then they look in history and going, "Hey, how about that? Hey, what happened here? What happened here? How come we lost it? Why is it gone?" And these guys come up with they aimed at feminism itself. They aimed at it as this overthrowing, throwing off something that started in the French Revolution. Femi- feminism, they're throwing casting off as all authority. They're the the roots of really the the fullness of what we have in feminism started in that era. Not in not in France, but in that era of throwing off. And in that, I got interested in pursuing it later. A recent book just came out, The End of Woman. We're in this era now where what's a woman? Everybody know what I'm talking about? What's a woman? And people can't answer what a woman is and scholars, it's only been out about a year and a half. Went through it. Catalogues the world view influencers of feminism. Catalogues it. Unbelievable, one by one by one. And the goal of this, of course, our tour time is short here. The goal of this is actually destroy the patriarchy. Be I'm I'm leaping through. There's I don't have time to go through it. Destroy God's order. Destroy God's order. And in that, take aim at manhood. Now, I quickly like men, let's not talk about men. The big challenge we have, you know, how then do we live? Is how are young people that understand the true God-given nature of man, the true God-given nature of woman. If there's nobody out there living it out. The best I've seen of of the true nature of man and woman being lived out is in the plain community. It's it's best, it's perfect, no problems, yes. Problem is under assault, under assault. And the more our young people are on the internet, on any entertainment, it's in I'm it's in virtually every bit of entertainment. These world views are in it. Many of those world views I I listed down in the entertainment, deconstructing, throw structure out. Structure is an evil word now. Where did that evil word come from? The influencers have taught us structure bad, structure bad, structure bad. It is bad for darkness. Our being structured is bad for darkness under assault. Okay, comes down to this question, what type What are we going to do with our men? Our young men. We can teach them, teach them, teach them. We've got to take our young men. We've got to build our young men to men of character. Men who understand responsibility. Men who understand what it means to man up. We need men to man up, take responsibility, look forward to being the provider look forward to being the protector look forward to being those leaders. And we have to quell this assault on our women to think we need to throw off God's structure. So, um I'm going to I'm going to end right there and we'll leave it for questions. Thank you. Good evening. My assignment is be strong, watch ye, stand fast in the faith quit you like men, be strong. Strength draws us. Men like strong trucks and strong muscles. Even the ladies like strong soap and powerful vacuums. Thousands of years ago, God gave superhuman strength to a man named Samson. With his strength, he carried away city gates, killed lions and men, and pushed down a temple. Is that the strength that we desire? Today, there's a competition where big hulking men lift heavy stones, pull loaded semi's with their teeth, and complete other strange tasks that would be impossible for any of us here. Is that the strength we desire? Friends, tonight if we're satisfied with six-pack stomachs and bulging biceps, we're satisfied with weakness. If we're satisfied to win foot races and ball games, we're satisfied with weakness. As Felix Monge was was being led to his death along the Lemart River, his mother followed on the other side, and it is said that she called to him, "Felix, be strong." What did she mean? Did she mean that he should rip the ropes binding his hands and tip the executioner into the water and swim for the other side? Because we know that moments later Felix slipped under the water and his life slipped away. Was he strong? 2,000 years ago, another man hung from a rough Roman cross. His body was beaten and disfigured. Blood oozed from his pierced feet. Blood clotted and then was torn loose and resumed flowing from his beaten back. Blood dripped from his nail-pierced hands and his head, and he was dying. And as he died, he opened his mouth, and with his last breath, he uttered three words, "It is finished." And friends, tonight that's what strength looks like. That's what strength looks like. Too many times, we're satisfied with strength that stops that falls falls short of the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe according to the working of his mighty power. True strength is measured by our ability to finish the work that God has for us. How should we then live? We should stop treating God's power as a limited resource. We should begin treating the power of God that is available to us as an unlimited, endless, infinite source of strength that it is. That is how we should live. How do we become strong enough to finish God's work? I have several points. God's presence brings strength. Moses realized the the strength of God's presence. And Moses told God in Exodus 33:15, he said, "If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence." Later, talking to the children of Israel, he said, "Be strong and of a good courage. Fear not, nor be afraid of them, for the Lord thy God, he it is that doth go with thee. He will not fail thee nor forsake thee." You will never attain strength unless you learn to keep yourself where God is. Secondly, God's words bring strength. When Jesus was tempted by Satan, he did not respond with men's wisdom. Rather, he responded with strict scripture, and Satan's attack was foiled. The psalmist said, "Thy word have I hid in my heart, why? That I might not sin against thee." It is the word of God hidden in the heart of young men and young women and older men and older women that will keep us strong and victorious. The psalmist also said a few verses earlier, "Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed thereto according to thy word." Tonight, it is the word of God that brings strength and clarity to our lives. Thirdly, communication with God through prayer brings strength. Jesus, even with his close connection with the Father, still sought him in prayer. It came to pass in those days that he, Jesus, went out into a mountain to pray and continued all night in prayer to God. If we're going to be strong, we must exercise prayer that reaches God. We must seek God and his will in prayer. The fourth source of strength is putting away anything that distracts us from God. Putting away anything that distracts us from God brings strength, and we usually call this fasting. Isaiah 58, "Is not this the fast that I have chosen to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every yoke?" Yokes are meant to contain the power of those that are in the yoke. Yokes are meant to harness the power of those that are in the yoke. And and the yoke of Satan harnesses us, and it binds us, and it's meant to be greater than our strength, but it is a fast. It is the fast that pleases God that breaks the yoke of Satan. That is strength. "Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor and and the poor that are cast out to thy house, when thou seest the naked that thou cover him, and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?" I'd like to emphasize that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh. Fasting that reveals our own life to us, fasting that reveals our own sinfulness and weakness and undoneness strengthens us. Fifthly, joining ourselves to the body of Christ strengthens us. Joining ourselves to the body of Christ strengthens us. The work of God, finishing the work of God is a greater task than any of us will ever accomplish alone. God does not intend for his people to be alone. He calls them into his body. He calls them into oneness, and in the oneness of the body of Christ, there is strength. Ephesians 4, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." The man incorporated, the woman incorporated into the body of Christ is a strong man, is a strong woman. The man who helps the body of Christ attain to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ is a strong man or a strong woman. It is the body that lifts up hands that hang down, and it is the body that lifts up the feeble knees, and it's the body that makes straight paths for feet, and it is the body that weeds out the roots of bitterness, and it is the body that many, many times strengthens the man of God. It is Friends, tonight it is the body that can attain to the fullness of Christ and his exceeding power. It is the body of Christ that will finish the work of Christ on the earth. God bless you. Okay, well, thank you very much, all four of you, for uh for sharing what you had prepared there. And uh in just a moment here, we're going to look to to uh Harold, and uh thank you for bearing with us in that interruption that we we experienced there. And um so, Harry, uh excuse me, Harold, uh you shared you shared first, and I would like to engage with you a little bit around that that content that you that you shared with us. And so, I'm going to look to you, panelists, are any of you ready to pose a question to to brother Harold? I do. Uh Harold, you spoke about the uh in a sense, the sleeping watchman, I think, along those lines. Uh one of the aspects of the problem of us not being vigilant. So, what do we proactively do? You descri- you described a lot of the things that are out there causing this. What do we do proactively to reawaken our vigilance? I I my standpoint, especially in the men. Reawaken Something we can tangibly do to reawaken that. Yeah, thank you for that that question. It's an excellent excellent question on how we reawaken in ourselves. I'm assuming you're saying this to each other. Any said other. Um One of the first things I think of in my own journey, and I I we didn't have enough time to express everything in in what we were presenting, but but it comes down to a desire within our hearts. If we don't have a desire for you, probably won't get it. But if you have a desire, a hunger for that awakening, I think God'll give it to us. One of the things I do is to actually seek for that, actually ask God for that awakening. Um One thing I fast for is as was mentioned by I think by the guy is is fasting and prayer. Is that it seem like clears away things that are in the way, and then brings about us this clear vision of God, and a um a connection of God uh to to God. I You know, God speaks when we begin to really desperately desire for him. Thank you for the question. Okay, thank you for that. Would Would there be another question for brother Harold here? Well, Harold, how do we how do we watch away the alert to the situation and uh it isn't the situation and you probably read the I must have read a book people hunting woods when Paul was walking at night and he sees a bear about with the bear. Should not be exposed to a wild hunter, but uh I remember my ear the hey, you're advised on everything like Peter. The next monster happened to be there all summer determined the year of our watching. So, how we how do we watch without uh making a nation? So, the first thing I think of is that um we have we see things as we are. Uh and so, whenever you I'm speaking spiritually now, taking up taking the physical you mentioned it is we see not always at as what we see, but as who we are, our world view. And so, the closer that we stay to the creator of all things and to the the king of kings that that proximity to him allows us to see things as they are because we become we become like him. I like your thought about tragic micro shift. Could you say a little more about that? What does that mean? Yeah, I was afraid that would come up. So, um I I'll just give you an example of of of quickly of what I think about when I think of a tragic micro shift. There's a lot of them, but one of the things I thought of was that for what, 80 years we've withstood the television in our homes as as plain people. And I don't know if it was the craft of the enemy or not, but he decided to go after these little dumb phones and and how designers designed them to make it possible we can get the television not only in our homes, but in our pockets. That was a tragic micro shift of our time, I think, and now we have them in our in our in our pockets. That's one thing I think of. Thank you for the question. Thank you for that. Is there any other questions I would like to raise here? Uh so, Harold Harold, maybe I would ask you, you know, as you as you consider this this whole subject of of watch and and being awake as men in our homes, you know, watching the watching the influences that come towards our families, as leaders of churches, watching the influences that are coming to us, you know, from from wherever they're coming from. Is there any a particular area that we as a people are especially prone to? Uh I didn't say that we're that we're gullible, but is there any areas that that we're we're especially prone to? So, the first thing I think of is that we as hard working men and I people are are plain people. We have the ability to make money quickly. We're we're we're genius of that. I think we heard about that this today by brother Chester Weaver. A- And so, that that strength that we have becomes a weakness. And I think of we're prone to take that wealth and because we have it and we use it on ourselves and we we that wealth then becomes a detriment to our spiritual life because we're prone to that to that gain. Does that make sense? Mhm. So, I think that's a part of it is that we had that and that's why I said I didn't call it just today as actually tagged godliness because we think, well, God has given us this and we are good stewards of this and so, we just keep it for ourselves. But, you give some away to a few nonprofits, but we um we keep it and therefore it's skewing our ability to see correctly, the danger. Yeah, any would you offer any helps for for just guarding against uh against deception? And, you know, really finding out the the truth about things and um because you you don't really want to be at a place in your life where where every every day I fear that I'm being that I'm being deceived. Every day I fear I'm fear that I'm being um brainwashed. You know, I don't want to live with a fear like that. So, do you have any any guides for us? So, the first thing I think of there is that in Thessalonians, uh there's a scripture that says that those who don't love the truth not only will they they God will allow that, but he'll actually give them a strong delusion that they'll believe a lie. So, the reverse is that we love the truth. We have a deep passion for truth and we not only do we love the truth, that translates into obedience to what God says. I think Noah was that way. He says, "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, built an ark." And so, that part was that he loved the truth, he loved God, he obeyed God. Excellent. So, love the truth. That's good. Is there any responses to that or or further questions? All right. So, um then we're going to transition here and we're going to talk with we're going to engage with Brandon. And so, Brandon, you were up here a few minutes ago and your section was on on standing firm in in the faith. And you you mentioned in your talk, I think you mentioned the the the pleasure culture and also the and also the persecution culture and I wonder if you would just un- unpack a little bit more of that um the the differences you might perceive from those who lived in a persecution culture versus our culture. >> Mhm. Well, I probably should talk with those who understand persecution culture from the inside, but I'm looking at it from my perspective. And as somebody who has lived in different cultures, I was a missionary kid and so, I I'm a third culture kid. And a lot of times third culture kids like me have a real interesting culture because we don't feel like we entirely fit into any culture. We didn't fit in on the mission field, we don't fit in at home. And in a sense, we end up being border stalkers. And uh it's not a bad thing. It can be a good thing. And so, sometimes as a TCK, we tend to notice cultural differences more quickly than those who grow up in one culture all their life. And one of my concerns is I I feel like we've had a concept in some of the Anabaptist world that we can live culture free. And that is impossible to do. Uh culture will influence us in one way or another. It's either going to be on purpose or accidentally. And I've had the question raised, well, why does it take so much culture to be faithful? I mean, the the apostles didn't talk about this and the early Anabaptists didn't talk about this. That's an excellent question. And so, it did cause me to dig around and ask myself. And I think it's the the reality is we live in a different culture and cultures do change. And so, as a staunch traditionalist uh I don't feel that things need to be freeze-framed. I think that we're trying to be honest with the reality of the culture we're facing. And so, um uh traditions are things that grow up organically while we're doing other things as an author put it. Uh it's not something we just pull out of our hat and decide this is going to be a tradition. Uh if you want to create a tradition wholesale, uh go give it a try and best wishes. Uh that's not how traditions arise. And so, we have this concept in a lot of areas of the Anabaptist world that we can adopt traditions just as easily as we discard them. And that's not true. And so often we are discarding a lot of things that have a very formative value for us that look unnecessary. And I'll just throw a few of them, but things like strings for the coverings and all that. Uh there could actually be more formative value for thing little things like that than we realize. I'm not saying there is, but we we better be very careful to analyze this. So, in a culture where things are very easy and convenient and we can kind of shift and drift at will, I think we do need to ask ourselves, what does it mean to carry a cross? Jesus said we have to take up our cross. Uh we have to be separate from the world. And that's going to look a little different, I believe, in 2025 with mass-produced clothing than it did in 1525 when all the clothing was made by hand. And a multitude of other uh ramifications. So, I guess what I'm trying to do is let's be realistic about the culture we're in. Thank you. Would one of the other panelists have a question to to raise here for Brandon? Go ahead. So, you you mentioned the idea of a convenience um we we're maybe convenience oriented. Um what is actually if that could be a detriment to us to have the convenience or comfort around us, what's a good way to kind of reverse that or should we? Is it important to reverse that? Okay. Yeah, the the danger there I think is that we think that being a Christian should be easy. And when Paul says stand firm in the faith, if if that feels easy for you, you better double-check. You might not be standing firm in the faith because it's uphill all the way. And I do think there is value in yielding to a bigger brotherhood where things go across grain with me. Um different people will say, "Well, I'll yield until I don't agree." No, no. Submission doesn't even begin until you don't agree. That's when submission starts. And so, I've been in a group where it was a bunch of uh people from various backgrounds that were trying to make church work. And they were very conservative, each family in their own way. But, it didn't work as a brotherhood because those fathers knew what they wanted for their wife, they knew what they wanted for their children, but they were unwilling to demonstrate that to their family by yielding themselves to a brotherhood and saying I will give myself. And so I think that probably the biggest challenge we're going to face in this individualistic society is yielding myself. Um but sin is selfishness. And so if I'm not willing to yield or give up my selfishness, it really is impossible to to be a disciple of Christ. Would there be another question from any of the panelists here? If not, maybe I would just make a comment. Yeah, so when I when I hear this phrase stand stand firm in the faith, um the the the word um orthodoxy does does come to my mind. So it's important that we that we are that we are standing firm in the faith and we're believing and teaching the doctrines that were believed and taught by the early church. And so when you when you ask yourself the question of how are we doing today? How how are we doing today in terms of even in terms of orthodoxy? Um you know, there's in in in the Anabaptist day, they they had to they took a stand um because of doctrine and and belief about baptism, they took that stand and they also paid for it with their lives. And today we face an entirely set different set of of issues. Like I'm not going to put you to death today because you practice believers baptism. These ideas coexist together and nobody's surprised by that. But but but the issues that we face are a lot different. And and so we're talking about how to how to um you know, have have agreements in a church and have a functioning body that works within a pleasure culture. It's not a persecution culture. But let's not forget the doctrine. Are there things that that that doctrinally we are sliding on that we need to pay attention to? Do you have a response to that? You say are there things that we're sliding >> Are there things that that we need to to pay attention to doctrinally? Yeah, I do I do think that as Anabaptists, as like brother Kai said, we we have the right answers, but we're not quite sure how we would get there if somebody pinned us down and said, well, how is it that you believe in the Trinity? How is it that you believe in the incarnation? And and what all does that mean? And so I think we could know our doctrine a lot better. Um I think one of the things we're also wrestling with again is is the broader church that is saying that discipleship is optional. And so we find ourselves having to argue that not only is it a rule of faith, it's a rule of faith and practice. And so those of you who are early church lovers, I know there's a lot of you here, I did go back to David Bercot's dictionary on early Christian beliefs, and there's a whole section on the rule of faith. And so this is not new for us to think about culture or living culturally contextually well. The apostles wrestled with that as well. They called it a rule of faith. In that context, practice was not optional. It was a given that a disciple is going to be a practicing person. We're wrestling with it from the angle that we're we're asking people to do both a rule of faith and practice. And to me, that's the beauty of Anabaptism. It expects it to be lived out. But we could do a lot better on our doctrine, I think. Yeah. Very good. Yeah, so I think we will now transition here and we're going to move to Harry. Oh, Harry, you're next. And you were speaking to us here. Your section was "Quit You Like Men." That's the KJV we um rendering of that. And so I think you you began to to touch some on the unique roles of men and the unique roles of women in the church and how that's being lost and how men aren't how men aren't men anymore and they're losing their they're losing their masculinity. And I think you could unpack that a little bit more for us. Like how are we going to how are we going to teach our and and model for our young men what what godly masculinity looks like? And there's this term toxic masculinity. I'm not even sure that I could define that. I I don't we don't want that, right? But how are we going to teach how we're going to teach our young people what what these gender roles look like? Okay, well we I like the word probably a uh operative word I'm using is character. Uh character in men. And uh we can we can go down the line the division the differences between men and women, the proclivities of men and women, the um women men wanting significance and and accomplishment, women more of the security and the um the nurturing nature. We have all those. I think we can we don't have to go through those in detail. We know that. The issue is the confusion of what men are supposed to do now. What are we supposed to be? And character being one word, the second one I I would say is responsibility, responsible. Okay? Where we in the culture outside uh trying to make men, you know, I guess you could joke around that they want women to be men and they want men to be be girls, not not women. They want to be girls. Uh irresponsible. And that's what we see in the inner city, irresponsibility. And we see it creeping around uh the the the periphery. Um when I was Let's let's get it back to the point of character. Character development in men and development. I'm not sure it can be taught in the classroom. I'm not sure it's going to be instruction. I'm not sure if those things are positives, yes. I'm not sure just reading a book on it. Yeah, it can. I'm not saying not. But I think for men, men need to be challenged into character. Need to be challenged, need to be exercised into character. Um and they want it. It's it's so interesting to me when we take men out, I take men out a lot, young men, to do things. And I put them through challenges. And even though they don't want it when it's coming, it's something in manhood. And in the middle of it, they they may whine, "Here we're what are you doing?" After it's over, glad we did it. It was good for me. Long time past, I'll look back and go, "Wow, that was really good. I got pressed hard. It affected me. It it it changed me." And I think we need to make sure we at some point in character development of young men, we move from the nurturing to the challenging. To teaching young men to stand up and take responsibility at young ages, at early ages. Teach them, "You're responsible for this. Do you understand what that means?" Um I know in my own upbringing, when I was reading that that book on feminism, the one of the things that jumped out at me is how badly influenced I was by feminism in the area of responsibility. And I was taught to be a boy and to play, have fun my whole life. That was what life was about. Our up up until my later years. And in the in the environment of Washington, D.C., even though we were responsible with our work life, completely irresponsible with our social, with our family, with our actually our our calling before God life. And I see the roots of that in feminism, to take men, make men ineffectual. Render them ineffectual. This is what the culture around us is doing. The more our young people are consuming any entertainment, you know, that's that's to me that's the the line. The media we've we have some wavering guidelines, but entertainment, no, there's too much too many cultural messages, too many worldviews coming in and they are masters at sneaking them in, making young people believe and love these worldviews as I grew up. So that's one thing, cut off the the source of a lot of that. And the second is challenge in, especially the concept of responsibility. I had five uh college students come and want to spend uh New Year's weekend with us. It was kind of interesting. We were we out to the camp out in western Virginia and they wanted to be with me. And they said, "We know." Now these are not not Anabaptist. And one of them interfacing, he's actually I've actually arranged him to stay with the Amish a bit. And he got the other four. And they basically confided, "We know collapse our culture is in collapse. They got it. It's in collapse. And we don't know what's coming now." And we don't know this is they weren't saying this to help get me help. They were complaining sort of you know, venting. "We don't know where we're going to get wives who will stay with us and bear children and raise children?" We don't know where they we don't know. It's hopeless now. That's what's on the outside working its way in. Um so we've got women now who don't want their responsibility. They want that cast off. And the the men I mean, it's easy easy now as a man. Just play for your entire life. And I was in that culture. We've got to make sure that that doesn't come in. And then we actually counter that. Thank you for that. I would like to give a quick opportunity for another panelist here to pose a question to Harry. I have a question. So brother Harry, you mentioned the idea that we've been influenced by the worldview around us. And and you you talked about some worldviews and some ideas. So how do we as God's people protect ourselves from gaining that worldview? Because we're we're we're watching these things and doing those things, we just we can't walk around with our eyes closed. What do you What do you say? What do What do we do? Well, in part you can block. There's parts you can block it. You know, and uh it's it's blocking build. Okay? We got to We got some portions block. Some of the come that that come in, we have to engage that worldview. And And sometimes on the spot when we see it, that doesn't look right. And be more engaging. That is wrong because let me think about why it's wrong. That's wrong because it turns me a a wrong direction. That influence wrong direction and tell my brothers, I figured out that influence. So, you think it's nothing. It is something. We have to be engaging. And look at it. So, we have to block, build, reject reject those things clearly and counter. I say, "Well, the culture's killing me." And we almost have to counter culture counter culture. That's out there. When the culture's pushing us one direction, we go, "That's wrong." And not only block, engage, not only that, but stay away. Wait a second. If they're trying to push us this direction, that means they don't want us going the opposite direction. How do we move that direction then? How do we then engender within our within our culture within our communities? No, we're not Not only we just putting the brakes on and you know, managing the decline. Not manage the decline. Let me say that again. We're not about managing the decline. We're about increase the godliness. Increase godly Christian culture. We have to think hard about that to improve upon these things. Thank you. Thank you so much. Let's transition now and turn to Kai here. Um Kai, so you were speaking to us uh the very last uh section there was on be strong. And I'd like to look to you panelists here. Is there Is there one of you that's uh prepared to pose a question to Kai on the what he delivered? If not, I'll I I can go ahead. So, you were you were talking to us there about um uh s- strength and what and what true strength looks like. And I think that um strength is important, but you also said that we need to put away, you know, putting away distractions and an attempt to build strength and put away put away distractions. Excuse me. And are there Are there certain certain distractions that you see just ensnaring us? Are we being ensnared by by distractions over and over? What What are some of those things? Like point Point them out. Help us to be aware. Sure. Well, I think he had a I'm finished. Make sure what strength is, you know. It It's strength is, you know. I I think there's an a necessity of gentleness with each strength. And then it only sure strength can be uh gentle. And so, if I'm if I'm at the edge of my capacity, I'm going to break things. Uh whether it's as a dad or a church leader, if if I've always functioned at the edge of my capacity, I don't do damage long away. You know, I would try by. And then if you had to pop a piece of it and you're going to care so and And you know, if I only want to show how strong they were and instead of maybe weights the issue while and beats the bubbles people or good gentleness. Take care of shot, you do. Um the suggestion provided is that the young girls are naked ladies. I hope our boys can read that. Uh yeah. Why people can't wait yet. I I think I think they we have a look picture of strength. But practical bits. I mean, I think uh we're we're so focused on update that that can be for vessels and chopped out. Uh you know, what it is. It's well achieved a Uh always talk to there. So many distractions. And all those keep going there. I'm sure. Okay, thank you for that. Uh any of you other panelists want to engage with Kai at all here? I have a question. I'm trying to formulate this question. But it's the idea that that the the weakness that Like in other words, when Christ died on the cross, it looked like it was a weakness. It looked like it was it was not strength. How do we teach our children and their parents um that that idea that there's times when it looks like weakness, but it's not weakness. It's It's true strength. How do we get that to them or teach that? Yeah. That's just That's a long view. But that's the law. Yeah. Our our children, you know, any of them out there they're showing or they're too soft. They are they are soft these people out here. It's just my But the more you chip that up the cheers they hear then then they see it be. And And so, is be I think you debate, but I do with that debate. They say people buy it. They buy it and seek proxies. And then I debate there's an element of There's element of debate necessarily and direction. And so, we are never you only chip worry. You are never going to only see what we say to there. But I believe that the true strength will continue to function in that in the reality thing. But I'm not sure we ever give you some. And there I put believe something the combination as we just believe. They all that believe. Okay. Yep, go ahead, brother. I I think what I deciphered from here, Tom, let's say you were um talking about strength or the the moral, ethical, spiritual strength, not the physical strength. And I think we have uh with the Gable's the scripture of it in our 500 anniversary year we see Esau and those young men great exercise of that moral, ethical, spiritual strength. And of course, we had master who wished flip that and went with the physical strength over the other to just cast it out here. Like on it there. And of course, my interest is in developing our people. So, what is it we could do to actually start from that young age that it was on the example better part of that in building and strengthening in them that moral, ethical, or spiritual strength. I'm worried. The days it's just we're just not okay when our young men being warped. And we're not okay with the replace you. Uh I think it starts with the education. They're you can do better. You're you're going to be in it. Okay, thank you for that. Um now is uh the very interesting part here. We're going to transition and we're going to go a little bit over over time tonight because of the time that we lost when we had a power outage. And I said I said it gets interesting because I opened my phone up and I see that there's 40 questions here. So, there's more than 40 people here. But that's still a lot of questions. And um so and they're just been sent to me like this. So, I'm I'm going to take a stab at at which ones I should ask. And um this this question is directed at Kai. It says, "Is it important that we call ourselves Anabaptists? The Anabaptist movement when it started was not called Anabaptist. I'm not aware that they held to any other worldview outside of Christ the standard. Are we harming the gospel by putting the essential of Christ teaching into the Anabaptist worldview? Box." I This might be getting at at at an earlier talk. I'm not sure. Do you have a a response to that? Or get that at the same time and answer it. So, the world is going to call some people. And so, it's the name that we're doubt called. If If Anabaptism becomes our identity then the tragedy of all is short. But if people call our identity in Christ. If people our identity in Christ and in our outworking of that, and then that's right. I don't see a lot of using that. Wait. Oh. Harold is our Hadley and then a dish you do call it the shoe door and I don't answer it call you. But uh the other day our 1 and 1/2 year old um we were we this area is everybody's name. So we're asking if you're sorry for you want to point. And we said where's on the idea? He had no idea who you were talking with. Um and we said where's we used to pick day or you tell us. So this this Rubid made using Rubid that the strat deep strat for bushes person. And and in that about to the happens to be the nickname that that the world is calling a functionally visible Christianity. I think it's wise of us to introduce them to the real name that we can certainly respond to it maybe to you. Okay, thank you for that. I'm going to ask a question to to Brandon and you referenced a modern perspective a modern perspective of discipleship being optional. What do you mean when you're speaking of discipleship? mentorship church discipline or something else. Yeah, I've been influenced I've been influenced by Donald Martin's book Joy and Submission. He's an old order Mennonite writer from Southern Ontario. And he talks about the fact that as Anabaptist we've been influenced by the fundamentalist concept that discipleship is an add-on or an extra if we want to do it. Sort of a two-track salvation system. Whereas traditionally as Anabaptist we saw that discipleship and salvation were one and the same thing. So for somebody to walk around and say is this a salvation issue would have no meaning to a typical Anabaptist because all of life is wrapped up in the lordship of Christ. But if we have bought into the maybe the more reformed under thought that somehow you can have salvation on one hand but then if you want to have the lordship of Christ you can on the other that is going to take us in a very different direction salvation wise. Okay, thank you for that. This next question I'll direct it Harold at Harold here. How should we how should we be practicing watch it? watching What if what if what we see is not also seen by our community? Yes, that's a very good question and I thought that before and that is it prideful to feel like I have a monopoly on God's voice or his speaking to me. And so I think we do well to approach someone in the community and say hey are you seeing this too? And if they're not to say am I seeing correctly? But keep moving forward in the light of what God has shown to us and not rejecting the light. But you know, I'm sure that Noah preached and taught from his perspective but no one saw it except for him or no one wanted it. But I appreciate that and now I'll direct the next question here to to Harry. What shall we do to encourage our young people to keep structure when they are delusional because of the inf- infotainment and attack on manhood? What do we do about by supporting a structure? Is that that's the question there I think. How do we encourage them to keep structure? Yeah. Well, in in observing young people now for a long time I find that the in the the uh maturing stages when they go from uh the the world is about me to my family and we get begin to have independent thought young people go through this big period I'm I've got my own agency wow I I can actually make decisions and they're given res- responsibilities it's on and they're they're growing in that. There tends to be almost what we saw in those worldview things I talked about throwing off. It's a natural tendency in young people especially I think in boys to want to throw off and be in a sense I can do it myself that type of thing that comes. And what I find is I see that grow up and there's this questioning and it's usually strong in those 20-ish in 20 the age 20-ish probably the strongest in my observation. And then in mid-20s starts to wait a second then late 20s start going hey that was good I had that. And in mid-30s fully on board this is what we need. If they haven't been if they haven't left or destroyed themselves in their earlier years. It's kind of an interesting thing I don't know if your observations are are like that it's my external observations we don't have children. So uh there's one thing is is to uh give them a little bit of that early on there already changes in the way you think about things. Okay? I don't know uh depending on the the age of the of the person is the young people. Um I I got deep into studying structuration theory and looking at this. There's there it's it's amazing that without structure things don't stand they just don't stand. And by uh my when somebody heard me speak about this you know every relationship has structure. Every organization every family every business every army every sports team you name it structure. And we found in the military and this is in the business world too when there's a unit having a terrible time they're they're not performing and there's problems when say send in teams to take a look at it they start looking at two words order and discipline order and discipline. What's the order and discipline of the organization? They fix that and we're wow and it's a huge change. change It's just an interesting thought that every organization in the world needs structure except the church. The church no. No no no no structure no stands for the church. No structure stands for the every one of every other one in the world. Only one. It's bad in one organization the church. Where is that coming from? Where is that coming from? I think we need to sort of plant it in their mind these things are coming these questions are coming and I'm ready to discuss them with you as they come up as they pop up in your mind. Thank you for that response Harry and I think I'll direct the next question at Brandon. How how will or should a multi-ethnic Anabaptist congregation differ from a typical mono-ethnic Swiss German Anabaptist congregation to allow for all the members to contribute the good from their cultures while remaining faithful? It's a great question. We were just in Ireland several weeks ago and they have a number of cultures represented there in the Anabaptist this church. So they're wrestling with a multi-ethnic multi-cultural reality there. And that's going to be a hard hard to do I think um what it's important to focus on sociologists talk about thick practices and thin practices which also then make up thick cultures or thin cultures. And thick cultures which we have in the Anabaptist world a fairly thick culture is a culture that has a lot of meaning and yet it's also hard for people from the outside to get into it. And so I think we need to be aware of our our thicknesses and how that can be a a struggle for people coming in trying to figure out what this is about. Uh have grace with them help them understand why certain things are important to us. And especially in a multi-ethnic or multi-cultural setting be willing to adopt some of their thick practices that are helpful cuz I don't think we have a corner on all the important thick practices in the world. And so one of the things that the church in our Ireland has done is they practice forward kneeling prayer. Uh just a little thing maybe. I think most of our churches here in North America in the Anabaptist we would practice prayer facing the back of the bench. We turn around for prayer kneeling prayer. But I I like that it's a recognizing that we can try to work with the culture. Another thing they do is they start church a lot later than most of us would. Uh they start at 10:30 in the morning Sunday morning to accommodate the culture of Ireland. So it's going to be an ongoing issue but I bless you those of you who are in that I think it could be a very beautiful thing to bring the cultures together. Thank you for that response and this this question could be answered probably by any panelists so I'll give maybe I give Harold option opportunity to respond to this. Um and and any others. I hear Anabaptist say all the time that they are afraid of them or their children being being influenced by the world, then why do so many of them use Protestant study Bibles or commentaries to understand the the scriptures? Maybe Harold, would you have a response to that? So, that's a good good point. In our home, I made it a a point to to not uh go with the study Bibles because of the comments, you know, that are coming from Protestants. So, we what we work with is a King James version. I do get them now and LT to read through one year. Um I use we now working through the uh New King James version, but we stick with the scriptures more for our family. Um so, I think it's very important. I don't think we should have to be afraid, but be proactive in what we allow into our homes. Okay. That's what I would give as a response. Not be afraid, but be but be proactive. Excellent. Any other Thank you. You can be dismissed. >> very helpful is to help children track cause and effect. They don't necessarily think through these things. Both Heather and I both grew up in homes where our parents were talking to us quite a bit and not in a critical way. There's a difference between being critical and critical thinking. If we can develop critical thinking in our children, not critical, where they can track cause and effect. It's interesting Brother Harry said that uh entertainment has taken away cause and effect in many ways. You can drop an anvil on somebody's head and it doesn't hurt. Well, like things like that. But, there are two sides of the coin. Raising children to be critical thinkers, but also raising them to make the charitable assumption. And those who look at people who are not like us and they are Christians, and I think we should assume that they're Christians. And we should make the charitable assumption. And I know that's a paradox in a young child's mind. They see it as black and white cuz if that lady's wearing pants, then she must not be a Christian cuz all the ladies in my life wear wear dresses and they're Christians. I think we need to help them navigate that there are Christians not like us cuz they're going to find out about it sooner or later. So, better under our roof, under our watch, um being critical thinkers, making the charitable assumption. One more question, and I'm actually going to direct it Harry. What challenges or dangers do you see technology bringing to our to our traditions? Particularly referring to community and family. What are some dangers you see technology bringing? And you've got 12 hours here, okay? And my great concern made me to know I I mentioned last night I I came into the my entrance into the Anabaptist world not knowing anything about you, not looking for you, and nothing and nothing was uh being completely convinced uh entertaining technology was just a way to exchange and that's because of because of my work in my life prior to the Anabaptists and that was part of my entrance in. And uh What are the particular challenges? Well, I'll I'll start with my first one. And it's my main point whenever I go to go to church and that is to do with our the purpose, duty, and context of life. The purpose, duty, and context of life as human beings is relationship. Relationship with our God, relationship with other people. And I don't need to explain that in much detail here in the setting like this. The prime issue is, and I go to much more detail when I speak on it to be more convincing is that this entertainment media, especially anything entertaining that we are enjoying or we're picking up the thing it is falsely satisfying our relational drive, our relational needs our relational desires. It's falsely satisfying almost like eating. I'm hungry, I eat something then I'm not hungry. I'm relationally hungry, I play with the internet, I play with my phone, I'm now not relationally hungry neither for those around me nor for God. We have reduced our appetite for other people and for God. That would be the key critical is our our prime purpose, duty in life is relationship and anything we do which hampers tampers distorts our prime purpose for being here is worthy of great vigilance. And it's great caution. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Well, we are going to need to wrap this up because of the time and so we're going to hand it back to whoever is whoever is next up here. But first of all, I want to say thank you to each of you for your contribution here to the panel and and thank you to all of you for coming out and submitting your your very important questions. And the question that we raised at the beginning was how then shall we live? So, how should we answer that question? I guess with adverbs. Courageously, boldly, humbly, confidently, carefully, prayerfully. May God bless all of you. Thank you for coming out.