How Radical Islam Caused 9/11: Returning to the Sources and Bin Laden - Chris Stolzfus

When you get to the life of Muhammad, when it comes to fighting and war, what do you do with that? If you're if Muhammad is the is the ultimate example of how humans should live >> and he's fighting wars, right? Then if you want to follow in the path of of the prophet, then that could be a part of it. So, as of recording this, [music] we're coming up on a significant milestone in American history. 25 years ago, approximately, um, 9/11 happened. Two passenger airline uh, airliners flying into the Twin Towers in New York City and then another into the Pentagon and another aiming for the White House, but um, diverted and crashes into a field in Pennsylvania. You know, those things leave deep psychological scar scars on the American consciousness, I guess you could say, or on society, right? >> Sure. >> And it's a massive topic and we won't hit everything, but we want to unpack a little of that today. I think the big overarching question that I have in this is how did we get to the point of, you know, jets flying into buildings >> that this it's it's just so bizarre and so out there that it was hard to believe. Like I remember I'm sure you you remember too, right? When it happens and you're just like there's just no way that's real. Then you see it on the TV and you're like >> that that's actually real. Like that that's just there's no box for that at the time, right? Mhm. >> And so we want to try to try to trace back through history and and and say like how did we get to this place and and then maybe even looking forward too. What was the response and the results >> across the Middle East? Um etc. There there's a lot of different trails we could take. So we'll we'll just see where where it all goes as the conversation unfolds. But that's kind of the big picture. >> Um so a little bit about yourself though, Chris. you are um a master's degree in um Muslim studies and you've lived and traveled across the Middle East quite a bit and >> um study into these things. So, we want to try to unpack that. >> Honestly, don't even know how to how to open like how how do you what's the first question to even ask because like this is such a big thing that has happened. Um where do you think we should start with a topic like this? Well, I I think about for those of us who were alive on 911, at least of age where we could remember things, we all remember where we were. >> Mhm. >> I remember precisely where I was when I heard the news of of 911. I was working in my dad's shed shop and I was standing about 4 foot off the ground putting a piece of sheeting on the top section of a mini barn of a barn that had a a roof with four four sides and I was putting the front I I I was putting the front piece on. I I just remember very clearly where I was when I heard the news of that. So it you know it was very very u I don't know memorable sad hard. I I remember then we we didn't usually listen to the radio, but we pulled out a radio and started listening to the news >> uh to find out what was happening. And then we went to a friend and actually watched >> watched it unfold and [clears throat] on TV. Um and I we were watching when the second tower fell and that was that was that was a wow. That was a surreal day for sure. >> I think what you know I think about another uh 911 that uh it's another day when I remember very clearly where I was uh when when it happened. And that was u the the day that the the Amish school shooting happened. I was in college that day and I remember being in a class. It was a it was a politics class and I forget exactly how I got the news. I think my dad called me and told me about the shooting and this was very close to our house. I mean, it was, you know, a couple miles from where we lived. My brother actually went to the scene and I went over and watched the scene, watched things unfold on a screen uh in the cafeteria and at one point my brother actually came up on the screen. He was being interviewed by by the news. But that was a that was that was what some people call the Amish 911. a very another very um surreal moment for people in Lancaster County for sure. >> I think what's interesting is the Amish response to 911 for to their 911 and the uh and what led to 911, the real 911, >> right? >> Like >> what what what is behind it all? Like what would what would motivate the Amish to to offer forgiveness to the killer of their children? What would motivate them to do that versus what would motivate 19 men to get into an airplane and crash it into a tower killing themselves and thousands and thousands of people? And I think that's that's a big question, right? >> Yeah. And both of those events, I mean, are are like like you're saying, they're just like seared into people's minds almost >> for sure. You know, I remember I definitely remember the shooting, >> you know. Um, which I don't I don't live in Lancaster, but we were, you know, you still that word gets around pretty quick. It's like, whoa, that >> happened. It's like this almost like there's >> like the ground shifts under your feet a little bit. It's like the world is different. I remember that on 911, too, though. It's like >> for sure. We had a neighbor right next door and she had seen the first one the first plane hit and we were on recess because we're homeschooled and and she's like hey you something something big is happening we don't know what >> come over and so all of us went over there whole family and it was live like when I saw the second tower the second plane hit and that was like when wait a minute this wasn't an accident like at that point everybody's like oh this is just an accident then that second one very deliberately >> hits and you're like >> I I remember just and you know I was young. When you're pretty young at the time you just be like the world is different now like it has shifted and we are never going back. >> How old were you? >> Um I would have been I would have been seven. >> Okay. You have clear memories. >> Oh yeah. Very clear. Yeah. Very like very very clear even like you know seeing people jump you know and that's all I mean this is all on live TV. It's kind of crazy if you think about that right. And then you start hearing oh the Pentagon's been hit. >> Oh they almost hit the White House. It's like whoa. Like the whole world has just shifted. you just you can just feel that in in you and yeah you could say in a in a different way and maybe in a smaller way but for the Amish community probably not a smaller way but like that shooting as a similar thing and then >> I think that is an important question what led up to that but then the response too is important where would you like to go because with the story of >> say 9/11 or you could even say just radical terrorism that's a pretty big and long story it's kind guess it's the question of how far back do you want to go yeah to to try to to wrestle and grapple with. >> Well, yeah. Where do we want to go? Um I I think you have to start pretty far back >> to understand Islamic terrorism. I mean, uh and and we we had another session where we talked about sources, right? >> And so I that if you've watched that then then you can maybe tie the two together. But the Islamic sources, we have the Quran and then we have the Hadith, right? Mhm. >> So out of those sources and the s or like the biographies of the prophet uh over the centuries following Muhammad um they tried to put together a narrative of what Muhammad did, what he said, you know, the way he lived. If you read those sources, you're going to find there's there's quite a bit of violence uh very early on. And so in the first 10 years of Muhammad's prophethhood, if you want to call it that, uh he had very little political power. In fact, he had no political power. He was persecuted. Uh he had around 90 followers in the first 10 years of his existence or of his prophethhood. >> Um and they were persecuted. Everything changed when Muhammad was invited to come to Medina. So according to the Islamic story, Muhammad was in Mecca, which is being questioned by scholars today, but this is the story. So we'll go with that. Muhammad was in Mecca and he was invited to come to Medina >> to help arbitrate some political some some uh rivalries there. And so when he came to Medina, which is north from Mecca, uh he became a political leader, not just a preacher, right? And so you have what you have now is you have Islam not only being a religion of speaking about God and who God is, but now tying that in with political power, which I I find very interesting if you compare with Jesus. You know, if you look at what Jesus did >> when he was when they wanted to make him king, you remember what did he do? >> Well, he just was like basically no. >> Yeah. No, it's just not. >> So a very stark contrast. You know, Jesus is they want to make him king by force because if if you want to overthrow the Romans, you'd probably want Jesus on your side. He can raise dead people to life. He can make, you know, he can do a lot of good things that would help you in battle, right? And so, he'd be a great king on your team. Uh, and Jesus is like, "No, he slips away." Muhammad did the opposite. He accepted and he became the leader. So from there even in the beginning again it was still fairly peaceful but one day according to the Islamic narrative some of Muhammad's followers were out in the desert and a trading caravan came through from Mecca. Now this was in the months uh this was in the month that they were not supposed to be fighting. So according to Alanu Riza Alan in his book uh no god but god he would say that there was one month of the year where they would fight each other as clans or as tribes >> but otherwise they were uh no there was not one month there was one month of peace where they weren't supposed to fight each other the other months they could and so according to the Islamic narrative these guys were out in the desert and a caravan a trading caravan came from Mecca and was passing through and they attacked the caravan and and I think killed one or two people and robbed them and took their stuff and brought it to Muhammad. First of all, Muhammad said, "No, this is bad. You shouldn't be doing this. It's the months of peace. You know, you're not supposed to be fighting." But then he got a revelation saying, "Oh, it's actually okay because uh you know, they're worse than you." Something like that. And so when Muhammad lived in Medina, he carried out I don't have the exact number off the top of my head, but I think it was in the 20 or so 20 raids of different caravans where they would rob the caravans. And of course that made the Meccans quite unhappy, right? So they weren't very happy that their trade route was being and so they brought an army, fought against Muhammad. The second the second round, Muhammad lost that one. and he said and and and so when when he lost that he blamed his men saying they didn't listen to him and if they would just listen to him then God would bless them. >> As time went on some years later Muhammad actually became the the the strong political power in the region. >> Um which then caused people to come to him from all across Arabia make political alliances with him uh and he became the power broker in in the region and it's all tied in with Islam. Okay. H >> eventually he goes back to Mecca. Mecca surrenders and uh and now he consolidates his power. >> All right. So we see Islam tied it with political power and violence very early on >> and and this is all all coming from Islamic source sources, right? I mean >> very Yes. This all comes from Islamic sources >> like the Quran itself or other other Islamic writings. >> Yeah. So you have the Quran, you have the Hadith which are sayings and deeds of the prophet which were transmitted by different people and then you have the S or the S which would be the biographies of Muhammad. And so that's where you'll read a lot about these these the violence and the the fighting and the conquering and all of that. >> Anabaptist Perspectives has been publishing material for nine years. essays, regular podcasts, the Frank Reed series, and this summer, the Anabaptist Origins documentary series. All of this is possible and made freely available because of generous supporters like you. Our monthly supporters provide a valuable foundation, but this does not yet cover our ongoing production costs. To meet our budget for 2026 and to end the year in a financially stable position, we're seeking for $50,000 by the end of November. If you believe in the mission of Anabaptist Perspectives, you can give by going to anabaptist perspectives.org or by mailing a donation to our office at 127 County Road 616, Athens, Tennessee 3733. You can also help by telling others about this podcast. Thank you for your support. And now back to the episode. Okay. So, right at the very beginning then we're seeing some some pretty stark differences on the use of violence and political power >> between Christianity and Islam, I guess you could say, or between Muhammad and Jesus or however you want to phrase that. Okay. Sure. But then how does that >> how does that story continue and like why does that even matter >> to the story where you know again in the broader picture of what we're looking at here? >> It matters because Muslims see Muhammad as the model human being. >> Okay. So if you want to be a good person, you want to emulate Muhammad in everything you do, right? >> And that includes how long your pants are, >> right? >> Or how you brush your teeth. >> So if you want to brush your teeth properly like Muhammad brushes teeth, you will get a mishwalk. And you can buy these at Muslim stores at uh and and you will it's it's a little twig and if you take the bark off it, it's it's a little bit like a brush. So you'll brush your teeth with a mish because that's how Muhammad brushed his teeth, >> right? >> Okay. >> So if you want to break a fast, there's specific ways to break the fast. And now it gets very complicated. Okay. So >> there are certain ways to break the fast. If you want to have a beard, how long should your beard be? You know, uh or maybe not so much that uh where do you hold your hands when you pray? >> That's an important that's a question, right? So some people will hold their hands here and some down here. >> And that's because they read different hadith about how long Muhammad's beard was. >> Oh, >> so the length of Muhammad's beard determines where where you hold your hands when you pray. And so there's this whole field of scholarship where they're looking at the sources and trying to figure out how did Muhammad live? What did he do? >> And then we need to figure out how to follow him, right? How to f how to >> walk in the path of the prophet. It's called sunnah. It's the sunnah of the of the of the prophet. And so in everything you do, you want to exemplify the life of the of Muhammad. >> It gets very complicated. I mean, if you're if you're getting up in the morning, you need to figure out how to put your trousers on. You need to figure out which side of which foot comes out of bed first. You need to know what prayer to pray. You need to know what, you know, it's very complicated. Okay? Islam is very simple. Remember that. um you just say anyway uh but if you talk to Muslims they'll say it's very simple but once you start getting into the details it is >> incredibly complex >> and probably lots of variation then in between and amongst all these different views okay >> so then over time >> there's this whole world of like trying to figure out how should we live yeah >> basically is that I mean that's probably oversimplified but is that the right concept >> yeah and they and they and so they study the sources but the sources disagree, they contradict each other. And so then you have then you have scholars that need to figure out which is a good which is a good hadith, one that actually is authentic, which is not. And then they disagree on that. And so they have different there's four main schools of thought, especially within Sunni Islam. And they would disagree on which uh they would agree on a lot of things, but they would maybe disagree on certain hadith, you know, which ones are trusted and which ones are not. Anyway, but all of this >> in an attempt to build a society that follows Muhammad right [clears throat] >> now when you get to the life of Muhammad when it comes to fighting in war, what do you do with that? If you're if Muhammad is the is the ultimate example of how humans should live >> and he's fighting wars, right? Well then then if you want to follow in the path of of the prophet then that could be a part of it. So you see what what you see is Islam in the beginning it it spreads all across North Africa. It starts going up into Europe in the time of the reformation >> when the Anabaptist movement was starting. We had Islam at the door up until then. You know we have uh the Ottoman Empire trying to take over more of Europe. Uh there were several times in in history uh throughout throughout the history uh where where Islam nearly took over all of Europe. And that's sobering to think about because if Islam would have taken over the rest of Europe, what would have that done? What would that you know where would we be? Where would you be? >> Think about that. Like our roots are in Europe, right? And so that was a huge fear during the reformation that the the Ottomans are going to come and take over Europe. Michael, you've heard the story of Michael Satler probably >> where he when on his at his trial they were accusing him of saying he would rather fight with the with the Turks than with than with the Christians because he said, "You Christians, you're Turks after the spirit >> and I'd rather fight with them than people who say they're Christians and are actually Turks, >> you know." But he says we should love, we should not fight, right? Um but there was a real fear in that time and so we have Islam for for for centuries right seeking to be expansionist like this is this is not new right so the things that we see happening today it's it's not new right it's it's been part of the story uh I would say from the very beginning now you could you can also argue the other way so you have Europe being expansionist as well you know so it doesn't just go one way it goes it goes two ways the interesting thing is I I talked to Muslims. In fact, just a few weeks ago, I was in in London, met this Muslim guy at Speaker's Corner, and he was he was he was saying that he was telling me that it's the Christians, which okay, I to be clear, I don't think Christians should be involved in the military. That's not who I am, you know. But he said it's the Christian countries. It's the Western countries who are bombing and killing people. And my argument was just like Muhammad. >> They're doing just what Muhammad did. What's wrong with it? You know, from my perspective, it's wrong that Yeah. >> You know, I I said I said to I asked him, so uh I said all of war is from Shayan, right? >> He couldn't say yes to that. >> Like I would propose and believe that war anytime we see war and killing, it's not promoted by Jesus. It's a work of Satan. >> Yeah. See, that's where that's where the clash of different of civilizations and differences Yeah. >> happens is right there. >> Yeah. >> Right. Because >> Jesus makes it extremely clear. We're not picking up the sword. That's not what we're doing. >> Not who we are. >> That's not us. Yeah. >> Yeah. And I know many Christians do, but as Anabaptist people, we say, "No, that's not like we are called to to, you know, reflect Christ in our liv." He didn't go around, you know, blowing up bridges and, you know, assassinating Roman soldiers, you know, like it was obviously not a >> let's overthrow the Roman government political movement or something. >> For sure. >> So, I can see where these can become diverting paths that are also on a road to collision. >> Yeah. >> You know, is that essentially what we're seeing here? Like a collision course being charted? But see, I would say most Western countries who claim to be Christian are not following in the way of Christ when they're fighting and, you know, when they're being colonialists and and taking over, you know, Muslim empires and whatever. That's not the way of Christ, right? And so the clash comes from where what does it come from? There's a lot there. Like if we would talk about you want to talk about colonialism. >> Well, I feel like that that's got to come in that that would be coming into more recent history. But where you had >> quote unquote Christian um empires, >> you know, say the UK or something at the time or well British Empire at the time um and they're going over and colonizing a bunch of things >> and taking them over and you inevitably are going to have a clash of civilizations on a bunch of different levels. But it would become very stark and obvious when you have them saying, "Yeah, we're Christian," quoteunquote, and you go to a Muslim area and they're, "Well, we're a Muslim." And those two coming to a clash. >> Yeah. >> Well, now you seeing that as a clash of religions, even if that's not entirely true, at least in some ways. >> What do you think of that? Like that's it feels like that's where colonialism is just kind of makes it inevitable that that's going to happen. >> Maybe we should define colonialism. I maybe everybody knows what colonialism is, but what are we talking about when we're talking about colonialism? >> Yeah, please. >> So, Colonialism was an era starting in do you know about what time I mean I'm saying I'm thinking 1700s >> yeah it would have been sooner than that >> 1600s >> yeah at least >> uh where I would say it's a western countries where western nations started >> gaining and exerting more and more control over the Middle East and that general region not just Muslim countries I mean India you know all of those areas It started I think it became strongest through the industrial revolution when western countries gained the upper hand mil militarily because of of their progress if you want to call it that in inventions. Uh so if you think about the industrial revolution and what that all what all that brought us that brought us cars it brought us the engine it brought us the ability to build trains and to you know cross you know and so you had the west developing all of this and if you want to develop that what what do you need to develop all of these systems? You you need something to build these things with right you need raw materials. You need the raw materials. Well, where are the raw materials? >> I mean, well, and you saw that a lot in Africa because it has a lot of raw material, but then you start running into things like, hey, there's oil in the Middle East. >> That's a really big one. Um, you know, coal, obviously. >> It's it's almost like you had these these powers that, you were more technologically advanced than than much of the world. And so, they're like, "Hey, we need resources to run all this new technology, so let's just go get the stuff we're Yeah. They would start by buying it, and then they say, you know what? uh maybe we need to have a small military force here to protect our our interests. Yeah. And so the governments would would open and and they might say, you know, we we'll protect our interests here and then we'll build a railroad for you, right? >> And so slowly but surely or or we'll give you telephone lines, you know, then you can actually have telephones. >> Yeah. >> You know, and so slowly but surely, the western technological technologically advanced nations sort of slowly but surely took over these these regions. And they didn't always do it by force, you know, they actually did it in conjunction oftentimes with local people, right? >> Because there was there were locals who would benefit from this. So one one group might say, "Hey, yeah, we'll work with you on this, you know, if we get this." And so they would >> Oh, yeah. So we can become more powerful than the other group. >> Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Exactly. >> You had actually one of the big things that happened during this time, you had Europeans. There's a lot here. Wow. Uh because this is really tied into modernism where there's this there's this feeling in the air that progress is like godliness almost, right? >> Okay. >> And so and and what the world needs is progress. >> Uh World War I said was the war to end all wars >> because there was so much optimism that humans are now becoming so smart that they can solve all the world's problems. Right? And if we have the answers as westerners, we should take it to the east, right? Because these people are ignorant. They don't have the advances that we do. >> We should go enlighten them. >> Yeah, we need to go. And Christians were in this. Christians were involved in this quite quite a lot. They would go start schools, right? >> Because they wanted to enlighten these people and train them and teach them and help them >> become enlightened like we were, right? And so there's this there's this mindset that progress is is everything, >> right? >> And it's going to solve all the world's problems because humans are now we really don't need God anymore. We we are smart enough to figure this out on our own. >> That that's a huge part of the story there, right? Because because then you you inevitably are going to have a clash of differing values. Yeah. differing religious frameworks and frameworks I think is the key word there because this is all couched in empire and power grabs and things that I think we've already made clear we don't think is what Jesus would have done right but it's >> still it's done in the name of Christianity or Christendom or something like that yeah in at least in sometimes you know but okay then what where do we go from there >> yeah so you have the west gaining more and more control working with local >> governments oftentimes Uh, one interesting example was how Christians went into the Ottoman Empire hoping to evangelize Muslims, >> right? >> They found that a bit difficult, so they just started working with the local Christian populations. Well, what happens then is Christians now have access to Europe more than the Muslims. >> Oh, >> they have access to education. they because they're studying in these Christian schools, right? And so now they can get scholarships to study in Europe and that starts to change the balance of power >> and you have Christians also working with other Christians to develop business. So now the Christian population starts to gain more power >> and the Muslims start to get left behind. Right? Does that make sense? >> Oh yeah. Yeah. >> So then you have the things that never happened in Turkey >> that actually happened, you know, where millions a million or more Christians were killed. >> Uh and they were driven out of Turkey and some of those regions. Muslims were also driven out of Greece. And so it actually went both ways. >> Uh millions of like hundreds of thousands of people. It's terrible. The stories are awful. It's called the Armenian gen genocide. There's also the Islamic side where they were. So I would say a lot of that comes out of the west stepping in to try to >> bring enlightenment, right? And sort of upsetting the balance of power >> in the region, >> right? Does that make sense? >> Oh yeah. Yeah. How do we get ourselves though to to the ideology of radical terrorist acts being done >> or isl, you know, Islamic terrorism, I guess you could say, like is that a certain >> ideology that pops onto the scene somewhere in this phase, you know, you kind of started with some of the source code, I guess you could say, like how this started. Yeah. you know, and then the difference is and you're like those are diverting directions paths like we established between Jesus, Muhammad, whatever, but also it's like we're seeing some collision courses here. >> So, I would say that the source code was still there, right, underneath all of this. Um, there was a big attraction in the Muslim world toward the West at that point. Uh you have Kamal Ataturk in Turkey who abolished the caliphate which had been in existence since the time of Muhammad in 1924. It's like getting rid of the pope and >> that's only 100 years ago. >> Yeah. Exactly. Um and that's huge for the Muslim world, right? Like they know how they no longer have a pope more or less. So that that's big. So okay, so you had a lot of the Muslim world becoming very secularized. Uh if you look at photos from the Middle East, a lot of these countries from a 50 years ago, 50, 75 years ago, uh very few women wore burkas, very few women covered. Uh they would walk around in miniskirts, you know, uh and and something started to shift in that time. There were several movements and and the idea was here. So in in Islam, the sources tell them that they are the best of people and they should be the winners. And you see that in the beginning of Islam. Islam grew incredibly mostly through conquest uh and then using that to you know in encourage or force people to become Muslims whatever you want to say. Uh but you have that you have that u you have that movement of of Islam so modernization but like that that say 50 years ago but like today it wouldn't quite Yeah. It wouldn't quite be that like I'm assuming some kind of backlash is coming >> again. That clash is coming right? So yeah, so so Muslims were losing power. They didn't have power. And so there came this voice, these voices actually that said >> the answer is to go back to the sources. >> Okay, that sounds almost like what you hear in the reformation. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Where the Christians are saying, "Wait a second. This is all just tradition and like we can't even read the Bible. That's that's that's ridiculous. We want to read the Bible." And you start seeing Yeah. Let's see. I don't know Wickliffe and you know and Tinddale and some of these guys who wait a second we got to be able to read the Bible like what does it actually say and then boom you had this reformation starting >> and there was this call to go back to the sources it's called ad fontes is that how you say it something like that yeah there's this there was this movement not only I mean like among scholars you know let's get back to the sources and so that's what you have the reformation coming out of that you have the Anabaptist movement coming out of that desire to go back to the sources right >> but you're saying Islam has a moment kind of like that >> Islam has a moment like that later, I would say. Uh, you know, we have colonialism, now we have a backlash. We have people saying we need to get back to the sources. If we just got back to the sources, if we followed Islam like we're supposed to, we would again start winning. >> Okay. >> So, what did what did they do like who was it and etc etc. >> You have uh there's several movements. One would be the Wahhabi movement. >> Okay. uh Wahhabi movement is it comes out of Saudi Arabia uh and somewhat connected but maybe somewhat independent you have the Muslim Brotherhood right in Egypt they were a very strong voice for returning to Islam there's a book called Milestones by seed >> oh >> and some people would say that that book has probably contributed more to radical Islam today than about anything else >> and that was what 75 years ago or something he's writing about >> somewhere around there yeah he actually came to America to study >> and he was so appalled with America. He he was appalled with our lawns and how we water our lawns, you know, and he went to a church once >> one time. He went to a church and he happened to go and there was a dance and the the the young people were were dancing and he explains he he writes about this horrible this experience at this church dance and how it indecent it was. But all of those things convinced him that Islam has the answers. >> He ended up going back to the back to Egypt, ended up in prison because of his work with the Muslim Brotherhood. >> And while he was in prison, he wrote Milestones. And that book is a a very influential book in the the broad radical Islamic movement today. And so he's part of that cry of like go back to the sources, >> back to the sources, go back to our back to our, you know, roots and back to he talked a lot about the the oneness of God. And so some of those voices really really >> uh brought back more of a conservative form of Islam, you know, back to wearing the hijab. So today, you'll see you go to the Middle East and a lot a lot of these places, you'll see most women will be wearing something. Um there's there's regions where they don't uh but that changed a lot. You know, people wanted to get back to Islam, back to their roots so that God could start fighting for them. Another movement was I I talked about Wahhabi Islam. I actually wrote I wrote a paper in school here uh I guess it was in 2009 called returning to the sources and I was comparing the life of Menos Simons and Abdul Wahab. >> Oh boy. Yeah. That's interesting because Okay. Meadow being early well fairly early well about middle of the way through the reformation I guess you could say you see that right he's he's really wrestling with what do I believe what do the sources say because he's a Catholic priest I'm getting this about right yeah uh okay so tell me the contrast there so okay Abdul Wahab he was a >> he he was a little bit of a nobody at first basically he was a person who was advocating to to get back to the sources right and he says we need He basically says we need to ignore all these years of scholarship, all the scholars. What the scholars have told us is hogwash. We need to get back to the sources, back to what Muhammad said, back to how he lived right now. Okay. Again, if you want to get back to what Muhammad did and said, what is that going to look like? >> Wow. Yeah. Very political and it seems violent. >> Yeah, for sure. And that's exactly what Wahhabism became. So, you have Wahhabi Islam and as it took over Saudi Arabia, um what were the numbers? Thousands and thousands of people were killed. They they cut off hands. They did, you know, they're they're going back to the sources following >> Yeah. I mean, Saudi until very recently, it's easy to forget, but until very recently was like very uh strict and aggressive on its Islamic rule, >> right? I would say I don't know. Has it changed? >> It's open for tourism now. So, they make it look really polished on the outside. This is my understanding. I shouldn't say I It's not that much. >> You just don't execute people publicly. No, I don't think so. But that wasn't that long ago. >> I mean, in my lifetime, they've been executing people. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember in college, I had a um a fellow student who was saying that he's like, "Oh, yeah. I remember, you know, it was a military family and they were they were over there." And she grew up there. And she was like, "Oh, yeah." Like the public executions were like, "Oh, yeah. You'd go out to the local, you know, parking lot or whatever and they'd make sure that, you know, oh, you're the American. Make sure you stand in the front." And then they would use a sword and like >> cut a guy's head off. Yeah. >> And then and Oh, yeah. and she remembers seeing this and being like, "Wow, this place is like, okay, you know, very strict Islam, you know, now that would that would have changed. I guess they don't quite do it that way anymore." But >> I think the source code is still there. Who who knows? It's I know it's a kind of complicated thing, but that when she told me that, I was like kind of rattled me a little bit. It's like, whoa, that seems pretty barbaric >> or intense, you know? I guess you could say intense. It's again it's coming from the life of Muhammad from following and you know it's not that far removed from >> from the true Islam that you would see in in in the early days. Um here it is. Islamic jihad became the chosen method of action in all the conquest of Saudi Arabia cost 400,000 lives. According to Algar the the governors of the various provinces appointed by Iban Saud there's a history here. Ibn Sud and Wahabb Abd Wahab they joined forces. So Wahab was the religious scholar right and then he joined forces with the political force >> uh and the British supported them I think at some point. >> Ah so there you get some of that colonial >> you get the colonialism tied in here and they eventually were able to to carve out you know their own whatever. uh and they carried out 40,000 public executions, 350,000 amputations in the course of subdu subduing the peninsula. Right. >> So this is what is Saudi Arabia basically today or generally speaking I guess. >> So that that's >> and this is what 1700s. Did you say the dates on this? >> 1700s. Yeah. Somewhere in there. I don't have the dates right in front of me. >> Something like that. Like 200 years. Maybe towards the end of the 1700s. Like this is 200 years ago. >> Have been here somewhere. Yeah. I think we're going to post this >> 250 years ago maybe. >> We're going to post this article on the uh show notes or whatever so people can read it if they wish. >> Definitely. Yeah, I was reading through it beforehand and I was like, whoa, this is this okay, I didn't know any of this, you know? I mean, there was definitely a feeling of that because I, you know, I've I've seen that in Menos Simon's writings and the Reformation and just the era of change and and him being like, oo, I've actually not really read the scriptures. You know, he's a Catholic priest. I haven't really read the Bible. I better do that because he's having all these questions. And so he starts reading the Bible and he's like, "Whoa, I got some things wrong. I have to change some stuff." And then, you know, Men of Simons, right? And you can still read his stuff today. And so that part of the story, I was like, "Okay." But then hearing it from a Muslim perspective and them saying the same thing and then looking at some, you know, what they did with that or this well, let's say this person in particular at least did with that. >> Okay. You know, it's it's Whoa. You know, >> Yeah. Well, it's interesting. They're both going back to the sources, right? >> Yeah. Yeah, they Yeah, >> that's the call. Forget all these years of scholars and hopes and whatever else. We got to go back to what the sources teach us, what our leader shows us. >> And that's what Man of Simons was doing. We need to get back to the Bible, following Jesus and living like he lived. Exactly what uh Wahhabi, the Wahhabi doctrine was saying. We need to get back to the sources following. And so he did Yeah. He did a lot of things that to to bring back pure Islam. Right. Hm. So that's that's happening in Saudi. You also mentioned um milestones the book. Um that's that's obviously later but it's in a similar vein. That's in Egypt which isn't that far away. Um it sounds like there's a lot of this kind of again in the air. >> Yeah. ISIS now more recently >> would be would be coming very much out of the Wahhabi you know form of of radicalism or whatever you want to call it. So what happens in the last let it be hard to put a time stamp on this I guess but in in the modern era of the Middle East that results in this collision course that we've been charting right there's a very clear distinctive track difference and you've already seen some of that confrontation with colonialism yeah >> and other issues but um >> what happens in the modern Middle East that brings that about >> the modern Middle East >> yeah let's just getting recent Okay. I mean, you have >> you have the you have the Twin Towers, you have the war in Iraq, you have the war in Afghanistan. You know, it it kind of keeps going around and around. If you have if you remember George Bush, he said this war on terror. He called it a what did he call it? >> Oh, didn't he use the word crusade? >> He called it a crusade. Yeah. Not a good choice. >> A righteous crusade. I think he called a crusade or something along those lines. Not not a good choice of words if if you're going into the Middle East because they remember the Crusades like we remember I don't know our grandma's maybe their birthday or whatever more better than that you know I mean the Muslims are like the Middle East is very tied to their history much more so than we are in the in the West. >> So you've got those wars which you know of course stirs people up >> and what what I find interesting is Western scholars are really trying hard to make sure that we know that Islam is a religion of peace. Right. >> Yeah. uh when I when I travel the Middle East, they're not ashamed of being warriors and you know fighting fighting and killing. That's just >> I I was a I was in the in Syria once before the war and a friend that I met I was studying Arabic. He invited me to come to his village and so I said, "Sure, I'll come northern part of Syria." and um he took me to this ice cream shop and while we're there eating ice cream, he's telling me about this famous person from this village who went to went to Iraq to fight the Americans. So I'm like, okay, here I am an American and he's telling me this story about, you know, how proud they are of the people and especially this one person who went to Iraq and to fight the Americans. Um, and so there's, you know, there's no shame in >> in in in doing maybe it's a little bit like America actually. You know, I if you think about it, Americans are proud of being warriors. >> Uh, Christians are proud of their participation in the military. So, it's it's not that much different. >> But what's so bizarre with that story in particular, we know you like in that case, all those warriors coming over from Syria into Iraq to fight the Americans like after the US invades and all of this stuff. Yeah. >> Um that group by and large would have been called al-Qaeda which later turns into ISIS. Correct. >> So like this guy that they were so proud of that this guy, this friend of yours is telling you about >> that almost certainly was the group he was associated with. >> Yeah. I think he was killed very quickly, you know, very soon. But they were proud of him, you know. >> I think that's kind of bizarre because like we flip that around from our perspective as Americans be like what? You know, that's a terrorist. And from their lens it's like no, he's a freedom fighter or something to that >> extent. That's just disorienting. >> Yeah, it is. It's Yeah, it is interesting. Uh >> so, okay. So, let's let's backtrack just a little. >> Sure. >> And look at some somebody that we all know the name of, Osama bin Laden, >> you know, where did he come into the picture? Like, was he reading some of this material? Was he influenced by Wahhabi? Was he saying like >> like like how does someone go from >> just being a a normal person to a really evil terrorist basically? Yeah. >> I you know, and maybe you don't need to get like super specific about him, but >> but what led up to those choices. >> Yeah. >> Of of those attacks. >> Yeah. I don't know if I can say a whole lot about him, but he was from Saudi Arabia, right? Yeah. >> And so he would have been in that Wahhabi world, if you want to say that. Like that's >> I would I would say, let me say it this way, the influence of Wahhabism, the Saudi form of a radical, very conservative Islam. back to the sources, the influence of Wahabism and scholars would would say this there as well is is way is uh is out is oversized, right? It's bigger than it ought to be. And there's one reason for that. >> Because they're rich. >> Yes. They have oil. >> Oh, >> okay. >> It seems to come back to that often, you know. Yeah. And and and the oil is Allah Allah's gift to them to help spread Islam. >> Oh. Oh. Okay. >> Okay. Okay. >> And if you're if you're if you're very conservative in this wahhabi salafi whatever form of Islam. Uh what kind of Islam are you going to spread with your money? >> Right. >> I mean just what you would already believe, right? Like what's working in your country or what you're >> I I would assume. Right. Sure. >> Yeah. And so what what they're doing with that oil money is they're using that to spread Islam. >> They do it in the west. They will come to Western universities and they'll say, "Hey, we will we will we will um give you a whole bunch of money to build an Islamic studies center." >> Okay. >> And that sounds nice, right? But then of course they get to decide what kind of Islam gets taught there. They have control then on what what gets taught in this university about Islam. >> They do the same thing. They will go to other Muslim countries. I have a friend who's working in an Asian country. Uh he um is working in a in a school that is funded largely by Saudi dollars. It's like thousands of students in this Asian country. And of course, they're going to get their influence. They're going to get their materials in there. They're going to get, you know, >> and so you have the same thing. I think it was you that was telling me in >> uh some country where >> the the the the Saudis are going in and converting villages to Islam, right? >> Yeah. West Africa trying to get [clears throat] there before the, you know, >> and and they say, "Well, we'll build you a school if you know if you convert to Islam." >> And they're animists. They're, you know, and so they convert to Islam for the benefits. So you can see how today the the influence of this radical wahhabi Islam is is is >> I mean not just today but for the last you know 40 years it has been really >> outsized I guess I mean it has been it's been big >> when we look at something like okay so I get that that that makes sense but then you look at something really extreme like al-Qaeda say flying some airplanes into it some buildings. I mean they did a lot of other stuff actually than just that that those are the things we remember because it's >> you know in within our country but um lots of attacks around the world across the Middle East >> very aggressive very um obviously extremists you know those groups later turn into I mean splinter and turned into ISIS which is you know a whole another level of of really bad I guess you could say >> like what was the motive what were they trying to do? How was that? You know, again, I'm kind of thinking of that collision course. Yeah. That's just being set up as we go through here. You're giving us some of the source code, right, with Wahhabiism, with, you know, milestones being written in Egypt, >> these major influences. >> What were they trying to achieve? Why in the world would they even do that? And I think that was the big question that was on everybody's minds >> in America after 911. This is like what where did this come from? >> This is just out of the blue, literally. Like, >> yeah. Why? >> Why did they think this was the right thing to do? Because they did. That they they really believed this was the right thing to do. >> It's interesting how everybody always justifies their violence. I mean, if you're thinking about war >> in the past thousand years, everybody's on the right side of history, right? From their own perspective, >> whether it be the United States or Europe or whoever, we're always on the right side of history, right? Um what was the motivation? I think it is a reaction to it. It is a reaction to what to colonialism and some of the not just colonialism. Now we have the more recent wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. There's been a lot of reaction and that I would say that has stimulated a lot of backlash in the Muslim world. But but still it goes back to their sources, right? And I I think we we have to remember >> there [clears throat] are events happening that create that backlash, >> right? There are things that western countries are doing. Um, but the sources are still at at the core of what creates like without the I think about it like this. Like why are Menos Simon's followers not still fighting to go back to Europe and reclaim Europe? >> I've never thought of that before. >> Right. That's a good point. See, like our people, the Anabaptist people, faced intense persecution through the Reformation for like 200 or 250 years. >> And I don't I haven't heard of any real recent uh Anabaptist terrorist attacks anywhere around the world. Have you? >> No. Yeah. Wow. >> What's the difference? >> H >> because we were thrown out of our countries. We were thrown out of our homes. We were, you know, our people faced intense persecution. >> Mhm. >> But we have a different source code. We have a different source. We have a different model to follow. >> Yeah. >> And and you know, take going back to the Amish 911. The story is different because they have a different model. If your model is Muhammad, then what do you do when you're wronged? >> Right? It's very different than If you're wrong, then your model is Jesus. >> That contrast, I've I've never thought about it quite like that before. >> It goes back to their sources and the model, the person they're they're modeling their lives after. >> I think so. >> Yeah. Because like Yeah. Because you you look at someone like Bin Laden and he and there's this sense of like, yeah, we've been wronged and this goes against Islam and so we need to fight back and this is the best way we can do it to really get the attention of the world, which definitely got the attention of the world, >> you know. So, in that way, I guess you could say he was kind of quote unquote successful. Mhm. >> Um but then there's also you see some things where he >> he's kind of like well that also didn't quite have the results that I expected or like he there there is also some of that too that and that whole story ends just kind of like okay like you blew up some buildings and then you end up dying and you know then the world kind of goes on you know in a way and that's kind of >> yeah and here we are 25 years later and we still think about it. still very much a a real thing that happened. >> But, you know, he's long gone. And I mean, maybe I'm sure there's still followers of him out there somewhere, you know, for sure. But it's just it's just different. I I don't know what you all what I'm trying to say, but it's just different, >> I guess, is my point. And I think we need to recognize that the things that Europe and the West has done to you know in during colonialism >> there's a lot of bad things have been done like you know it's they have a gripe they have >> from their pers from their perspective they have a legitimate gripe >> right I mean what they've gone through in the wars and the you know and the model they follow the person they follow >> makes the reaction you know >> pretty intense. Yeah, it does in this case at least. >> Yeah, I think that is an important piece like I mean the colonialist aspect that I mean we didn't even get into things like um after World War I and the and the redrawing of the all the boundaries in the Middle East you know and that made huge ripple effects to today >> for sure. Um, in fact, even that was one of the big things ISIS, you know, they released a statement, you know, back in 2014, I think it was, saying, "We're here to eradicate those boundaries that were drawn by the colonialist invaders, you know, back in 1919 here in the Middle East, you know, all this stuff." Um, and I mean, >> yeah, so there you kind of a point. I mean, I mean, that did happen. I mean, you can study your history and, you know, Google Sykes Pico if you want to, you know, read up on it and you're like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, that I mean that did happen, you know, and it was probably not very fair or >> maybe the right way to handle it, etc., etc. >> It was the West deciding where the lines go and >> Mhm. >> and who who's in which country and who's going to control what and >> Oh, boy. Yeah. Just kind of slice it up and >> Yeah. you get [clears throat] this, we get this. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very much so. And of course Britain being like, "Okay, we'll keep the oil and you know the France is going to going to get this piece." And you're like, "Oh, whoa, that's >> no wonder that you that that would make sense that someone would be a little bit upset about that, right?" >> Um, but it's more like maybe what we're getting to here >> is not that there hasn't been wrongs committed >> or egregious things done, take your pick, whenever, >> but it's the reaction to it or the response. >> That's where you see the the fundamental split. difference with >> the path of menosimons and so forth, you know, >> and so in my paper I'm my I'm outlining that >> both of them are going back to the sources, right? Wahhabi Islam is going back to the sources. Menosimons in the Anabaptist movement, >> our goal has been to go back to the sources. >> What did Jesus teach? How did he teach us to live even when we're wronged? Right? And if we do that with Jesus, if we go back to the sources and say, "Okay, how does Jesus teach us to live when we're wrong?" He says, you know, return good for evil, right? And I think it's fascinating and inspiring >> to see that going back to our sources leads us to a way of peace >> and a way a commitment to not participate in war. I've had I've had lots of Muslim friends and I tell and they'll they'll talk about the West and how you you people are so whatever you know warriors and and I love to be able to tell them my people are not there. >> Yeah. >> In fact, if somebody from my church would want to join the military, we would kick him out of the church. I I mean that's we he could not be a part of our church. He could not be a part of our fellowship. >> That's an incredible gift. And we've been, you know, it's an inc it's an incredible gift in our interaction with Muslim people to tell them we are Christians who really want to get back to the sources of what Jesus taught and and not participate in that eye for eye, tooth for tooth. >> Whereas Islam, when it goes back to the sources, >> that's what you get. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth. >> And you end up with >> on and on and on. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then you end up with some seems like it's going to inevitably happen. Then you'll have a certain amount >> of those that go really radical and say let's go blow something up or you know like some take your pick of any crazy terrorist thing that has happened. I was just seen one this last week another terrorist attack in Syria you know and you're just like oh my you know it's at some point you'd think that was would stop but it doesn't. >> It just kind of >> that injustice has happened those bad things have happened. those things that weren't fair have happened, whatever, and over it just kind of keeps spiraling. It just never can really break out of that cycle. >> Jesus as the example. If you don't have Jesus as the model, how do you break it? >> Wow. >> Jesus is the model that helps us break those cycles of violence. >> Because it is it is that fundamental question like what are we going to do >> when a horrible thing has happened to us or or injustice the Amish school shooting or um you know Bin Laden has his gripes against and some of them probably pretty legitimate actually. Hey, this wasn't fair. They took our stuff or they you know carved up our land or took whatever. I mean there there were lots of those things happening in the colonialist days. >> Um but what do you how do you respond to that? >> I mean that yeah that's the fundamental question. I'm really starting to see that now. M >> so where should where should people go with this as they listen to this and again we're sitting here in America reflecting back on on those events you know last 25 years have been pretty pretty crazy experience for American relations with the Middle East and I say that more the political you know realm right and with the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and you know other places too I mean Iran most recently >> what do we do with all this I think Jesus calls us to love the stranger. There's lots of Muslims in America and we have great opportunity to open our homes, open our lives and engage with them and point them to the way. I I hope that's what we can do. >> There's a lot of there's a lot out there that's that's, you know, rhetoric against refugees and against immigrants. Uh I understand the difficulties. I've worked among, you know, refugees for many years. Uh there's a there's a lot of problems. There's a lot of issues that we could talk about, but I think as Christians, our job is still to love the stranger and not to get caught up in the political rhetoric and all of that, you know, >> stay focused on the >> because really what's going to change the situation and and think about it. If all you had was the model of Mus Muhammad for your to go back to, why wouldn't you? Like, why wouldn't you respond like that? That's the model. That's the that's what you have. And here we we need to show them another way. And the Holy Spirit needs to work in all of that, but it's difficult, right? But we we have the opportunity to show them another way >> to to like model something different. >> Yeah, I think so. I think that the the Amish school shooting that got around in the Muslim world. That's such an uncommon like it's it blows your mind, you know. Yeah. >> That you could respond that way >> and that's what they need to see, I think. >> And then engage with them, you know, in other ways as well. >> Well, Chris, thanks for coming on and sharing this. This is a this is a tough topic. >> It global terrorism. >> It's sensitive. It's uh yeah, it is >> and I love Muslims >> uh and but and it's hard to, you know, >> talk about the some of these things because it affects their lives and speaking out too much. I don't know, it could affect my life. >> Well, thank you for being willing to share what you did today. John grew up Muslim in Yemen and we interviewed him about what that was like and specifically what does Islam teach. You can find that episode linked in the description below. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast and tell others. Thanks so much for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode. [music]