How Mobile Apps Can Leak Your Location to Advertisers

Your location isn't just a pin on a map. Once collected, this information can expose some of the most intimate details about your life. Location data can reveal where we live and work, the people we associate with, the doctors we see, and the places where we worship. The value of this information to advertisers and others has turned the location data business into a multi-billion dollar industry. But how do data brokers even know where we are? And what can we do to take back our privacy? I'm Hudson Hongo. >> And I'm Christian Romero. This is Aector from the Electronic Frontier Foundation. >> Later, I'll be chatting with Nicole Ozer, the new executive director of EFF, about some of the key battles for our digital rights to watch in the months and years ahead. >> We'll also let you know about some of the upcoming opportunities to connect with EFF. >> But first, we'll be talking about a new EFF report highlighting how location data is harvested from apps on our phones, potentially without the app developers themselves even realizing it. So, uh, we're talking about location data today. Uh, Christian, do you get the sense that people are starting to understand why locationational privacy is so important? >> Yeah, I think so. I mean, I I go to all these conferences and people are always asking me like, you know, why does my phone send me ads of like when I go to a new place and it's like, oh, you should check out this spot. And it's like, why is it so accurate? And I'm like, well, well, >> hate to break it to you. the it's it's a little more scary than you think it is. Honestly, >> I think like the push back against flock and automated license plate readers has put the issue just of location privacy in general on people's radars. But like you said, uh [laughter] ALPR is just one of the ways that our location can be tracked. Uh one of the biggest, as you know, is the online advertising industry. Um, which which doesn't really feel like the kind of thing that should just be for sale to anyone our locations, does it? >> Yeah. I mean, once you start explaining like the advertising industry and like data brokers specifically to people that have never heard about it, it it truly does sound like more sinister than you think. Like we often get the question, is my phone just listening to me? And it's like, no, the the reality is actually like a lot uh crazier than you think it is, >> right? getting all the sorts of data from you, from people you associate, uh, people you live with to triangulate information that does feel as detailed as if it were like listening to your conversations. And on top of that, like we're saying, uh, location data. All too frequently, these dated brokers get a hold of our physical locations, which are not static, which I don't know about you, Christian, but I I move around the world throughout my day, and broadcasting my location can reveal all sorts of things about how I live my life. >> Yeah. Uh which anime stores you're going to, you know, do you want people to know that you're a weeb, Hudson? I don't know. [laughter] >> This is not fact. Christian is speculating here. He has not yet bought my location data. I just want to note. So recently our colleagues uh Bill Bington and Lena Cohen looked into how mobile apps feed their users location data into this data broker ecosystem. Um specifically they conducted a survey of some of the advertising software that's embedded within Android apps. But what they found wasn't great. It was it was bad. don't like. Um, but to dig deeper into this, I I chatted with Lena. Uh, let's listen in on that conversation. Well, hi Lena. Thanks for dropping by. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, today we're talking about a new EFF report which highlights a key way that data brokers end up with our location data. But before we get to that, I wanted to get at why this is important. Uh obviously it's very creepy, but what are some of the real world dangers of data brokers knowing where we are? >> Yeah, I mean once location data brokers have have information about like where where you've been um precise details about your location history, they can sell it to basically anyone who's willing to buy. Uh and they sell our location data without our knowledge or meaningful consent. So, it's because of the opacity of the data broker industry, it's hard to get ex a sense of exactly who they're selling your location data to. Um, but we know through investigative reporting that they have that location data brokers have sold people's information for some really dangerous uh purposes. There are location data brokers um who sell to surveillance companies that make uh global spy tools. We know that location data brokers sell to the US government um and that location data from the advertising industry specifically has been used for ICE investigations. We also know that location data brokers have uh sold information to people trying to track union organizers out a gay priest even uh target people who've who visited um who visited uh targeted abortion seekers with anti-abortion ads. Um so yeah the there there's a lot of uh different harms uh beyond creepy ads targeted based on our location. Uh, and the core issue is that once once location data brokers have your information, it's almost impossible to know and control who they're selling it to. >> So, so basically an opaque uh free-for-all, right? I I know that in the case of the government, uh, they can do sort of location searches that in other contexts might require a judicial warrant, but because this is just private information that's for sale out there, they're allowed to use this data without a warrant. >> Yeah, absolutely. It's sort of a a loophole to uh the Fourth Amendment. The government can just buy access to location data that normally they would need a warrant for. >> And and this location data, as I understand, can be fairly precise. Correct. >> Yeah, absolutely. Um the location, you know, if you if you give an app uh precise location permissions on your phone, it can, you know, it'll locate you up to about 10 ft uh in accuracy. So yeah, it's not just like [laughter] not just uh what what city you're in or what neighborhood you're in, but maybe maybe your exact uh maybe your exact apartment building. >> Okay. So you did name uh quite a few different ways that location information can put people at risk. Um and you started to talk about I'm glad uh about how data brokers are getting this information in the first place. One key source is mobile apps and something called software development kits or SDKs. What is an SDK? >> Yeah, so an SDK is basically just a package of code um that is that is made by another company that is that is made by a company and used by many different app developers to sort of imp implement something that developers uh wouldn't wouldn't want to make from scratch themselves. So you know there are SDKs for a lot of different purposes. There's uh SDKs that developers use to serve ads um to collect analytics. There's also, you know, SDKs that developers use for important um security features. SDKs uh themselves aren't inherently problematic. Um but what our report focuses on is advertising SDKs that developers use to sort of easily monetize their apps. Um and these advertising SDKs have a lot of control over how much uh how much data is shared [music] from apps into this like mobile advertising ecosystem, >> right? So maybe you're an independent app developer. You make a calculator app. Maybe it's a very good one and you don't want people to pay for it. So you have it up free with ads, but you're not an advertising uh software coder. So you just maybe plug in a software development kit that does this. And >> yeah, >> this is is sort of what you were looking at. >> Yeah. Um so we we we knew that we know from EFF has like advocated for years against the connection between adtech and location data brokers. We know that location data brokers are sort of easedropping in in mobile advertising systems um to collect people's data um and advertising SDKs have a lot of control over what data enters um this this this data free-for-all that is the like advertising ecosystem. Um, so once a once a developer adds um an advertising SDK to their app, they don't have to like manually decide what data they're sharing about each ad user and how it's going to be used to target them with ads. Um the advertising SDK basically, you know, will automatically collect data that it has access to um inside of an app and share it uh and and share it in these real time advertising auctions that we know location data brokers abuse. >> So right, you and our colleague Bill Bington looked at uh advertising uh SDKs for this report. I understand you reviewed the uh public documentation for dozens of widely used AD SDKs. What specifically did you find when you reviewed that uh developer documentation? >> We found most concerningly that there are several advertising SDKs that automatically collect and share location data whenever they're embedded in an app that's been granted location permissions. That means that a developer using these ads SDKs doesn't have to like turn on or opt into location sharing just by using an ads SDK with its default settings. Um if you know if if their app needs location permissions for any core functionality uh that that location information will will could automatically be shared um with this dangerous ads ecosystem. Um and that that is a big problem because defaults matter not just for users um but for app developers as well. U studies show that a lot of developers tend to just stick with the default settings of the third party SDKs they use. Um so a developer who's not paying careful attention to the documentation of the ads SDKs they're using could be inadvertently leaking their users location information. There's we we found some other uh [laughter] concerning uh characteristics of advertising SDK's uh location sharing behavior, but I'll I'll start with that. These dangerous defaults. >> Yeah. So, I know your analysis ended up focusing on just four advertising SDKs. Do we have a sense of how many people just those four might impact? >> Yeah. So these four SDKs that admit to sharing location data by default are embedded in tens of thousands of apps and according to the ads SDK's companies themselves reach billions of users. That being said, they're not the most prevalent SDKs uh used by developers, but they're prevalent enough to affect billions of users. Um, and even though we focused on just four SDKs with dangerous defaults, um, we found some concerning patterns, um, in their in their documentation that reflect broader issues with like ad w with other ads SDKs. Um, academic research has sort of found that third-party SDKs can nudge developers towards more data sharing. Um, and that that was that was reflected in a lot of the SDK documentation we've reviewed. Uh, not just the documentation of of these these four with dangerous defaults. >> So, so significant scale. We know that publicly a few have admitted that or at least you found a number that are publicly talking about how they have these dangerous defaults. But just the advert the ecosystem itself affecting a a very very high number of people. >> Yes, absolutely. Um I think that there's part of the reason we published this report um is that you know people sort of Yeah. Yeah. This is you know this this these SDKs are likely embedded in apps used by billions of people. Um, and I think very concerningly, the location, we actually looked at some apps that have these SDKs. Um, and we found that they were sharing precise location data without any meaningful notice or consent to the user. Um, so there's probably billions of of of people using apps that they don't realize. uh whenever they grant location permissions to this app, they're also granting location access to sketchy third-party advertising companies and potentially location data brokers, too. >> So, you mentioned this a bit before, but I gather that part of the problem here is that app developers themselves don't necessarily know that these software development kits they're plugging into their apps are collecting this kind of data on their users or sharing it with third parties. Is that right? >> Yeah. I mean, it's not to say that there there aren't app developers who might be intentionally selling on selling location data to data brokers or app developers who wouldn't um turn on location sharing to make more money through ads. Um, but the fact that that that several advertising SDKs are sharing location data by default really increases the risks of developers sharing location information uh without realizing it. Um, and this isn't a hypothetical risk. In 2025, there's this location data broker called Gravy Analytics. Um they're connected to another location data broker that sells to US law enforcement, including ICE. Um this data broker was was hacked. Um and the the leaked data revealed thousands of apps that may have been uh sources of location data. And when journalists reached out to developers of apps on this list, most claimed that they they had no relationship with Gravy Analytics or they'd never even heard of Gravy Analytics. So I think that you know if if they're telling the truth um I think this really points to the fact that the the this points to how important it is to understand the location sharing behavior of third party SDKs because sometimes they're having they have more control than the developers themselves over what data enters the ads ecosystem >> and whether they're aware or not developers still have a pretty important responsibility here right >> absolutely regardless of of what the default setting is of of an advertising SDK. Developers have a responsibility to to protect their users data, especially data as sensitive as location data. Um, that being said, we shouldn't have to rely on developers reading the right piece of documentation um to to keep our location data safe. um data as sensitive as as location should should never be shared by default. >> So are there any other really important uh takeaways uh that our listeners should know about? >> Yeah. Um I think you know beyond these dangerous defaults uh we found several ways that these ads SDKs were really were not just facilitating location sharing with this dangerous ecosystem but actively encouraging it. Uh several of these ads SDKs explicitly highlighted the financial incentives for developers to request location permissions and then by extension um share location data. A lot of ads SDKs talked about how um you know giving your app location permissions which also gives these third party SDKs location permissions. Um how that would increase ads revenues. Um, we also found there was one ads SDK that told developers it it it wouldn't collect precise location data. It would only collect approximate location data. And we did some technical analysis of apps with that SDK and found that claim was not true. We saw precise location information being shared despite what the documentation told developers. Um, yeah. So, so that ads SDK ended up updating their documentation after we reached out. Uh, but it shouldn't it shouldn't take it shouldn't take privacy advocates investigating SDKs to get these companies to tell developers the truth about what they're doing with with location data. I think lastly, we saw a lot of emphasis um in these developer docs on the fact that users location users had to explicitly grant an app permission to access their location. Um and that was sort of framed as a you know a type of of user consent. Um but app level location permissions really really can't signal consent um to third-party data collection by these SDKs. Like mo most people don't realize that apps have third party code, let alone the fact that the third party code in apps um can like automatically access all of all the same location information as as the app itself. Um there's even, you know, there's a lot of apps that require location permissions to function like mapping apps or dating apps. Um so even though these SDKs frame the like app level location permissions as as as a type of of of user consent, um it's really, you know, location data is still being shared with advertisers without without people's meaningful consent or knowledge. I know that a lot of our listeners are uh probably fairly troubled to hear this um and aren't necessarily satisfied to wait for other parties to do the right thing. Uh in the meantime, what can users do to protect themselves? >> Yeah. So, users can can definitely take some steps to defend their location privacy. First of all, be be very careful about the apps that you share uh location permissions with and be aware that when you're granting an app permission to access your location data, you're also giving that same access to all the third party code embedded in that app. Um I would say, you know, don't don't give an app location permissions if if it doesn't if it doesn't need it. Um, and if you do have to give an app location permissions, uh, give it, you know, sometimes you have a choice to give the approximate location permissions instead of precise. Um, that being said, users shouldn't have to go through any extra steps to keep their location permission from getting to location data brokers. It's really on developers, regulators, and legislators to act um to stop our apps from leaking location information. I'm glad you brought that up because I think that might be the most important party potentially in this situation. What should regulators and lawmakers be doing? >> Absolutely. Um, first of all, regulators should continue holding app developers accountable whenever they unlawfully share personal data, especially location data. Um, but that being said, they shouldn't just focus on individual app developers. they should um scrutinize these companies whose SDKs actively encourage location data sharing. Um they should, you know, scrutinize the companies who make location data sharing the easiest option uh for developers. Otherwise, we'll see adtec companies continue to design their SDKs to make location data sharing the default while sort of shifting the responsibility and consequences of any non-compliance to the developers who just use their use their tools as is. Um, next, we certainly need more and stronger data privacy laws that that give developers and adtech companies an actual incentive to protect people's personal data. Um, the US is in in dire need of a federal privacy law, especially um, one that that that doesn't preempt stronger state privacy laws. Um, it has a private right of action that would lead to it actually getting enforced. Um, but in the meantime, while we're waiting for a a strong federal privacy law, uh, states can can pass strong data privacy laws if they don't have them already, and regulators can enforce the laws that are on the books. >> I I think that would be a really good start. And uh you know, one one more one more thing that legislators can do to actually address the root of this problem is banning online behavioral advertising. Um that's advertising that's targeted based on people's online and offline behaviors, not just the content that they're they're looking at in the moment. Um, that's the system of advertising that incentivizes almost all the companies we interact with to track and share our personal data. And that's the system um that incentivizes apps and advertisers to broadcast our location data into these insecure uh advertising systems. Um, and I think, you know, unless we address the root of the problem and move away from surveillance-based advertising, companies might keep uh keep finding ways to bypass our privacy protections and keep keep tracking our our location data. >> Well, thanks again for coming by, Lena. >> Yeah. Uh, thanks for having me. Quick break to remind you EFF is a memberup supported nonprofit and your support is what makes this work possible. If you want to help EFF keep fighting for your digital privacy, head to eff.org/podfan. For as little as $10 a month, you'll get our latest member t-shirt and join the community of over 30,000 EFF members fighting to make sure technology works for everyone. That's eff.org/podfan. One more time, eff.org/pf org/pfn. All right, back to the show. >> Okay, Christian. So, I actually had the chance to conduct uh two interviews this week. Have you been able to chat with Nicole Ozer, EFF's new executive director, since you started? >> Yeah. Yeah, we uh actually worked together on a social media video that everyone should check out, too. But uh yeah, she's uh been great to kind of get to know over the past few weeks >> and I know a lot of people who are in this space are already familiar with her her work um with the uh privacy in California, some some landmark legislation there. But in any case, I thought my conversation with Nicole was was really interesting. Um let's listen. >> Well, uh hi Nicole. Thanks for dropping by. >> Thanks so much Hudson. It's so great to be here on the podcast. >> Thanks. Yeah. So, on the podcast, um, we're often doing like pretty deep dives into specific rights topics, but I'm excited to have you here today because I thought it could be a good time to take a step back and get a little bit more of the bigger picture. Um, a picture that feels pretty big these days. Uh, and so this is a big one, but I just, you know, want to start off. What do you think makes the moment we're in right now so consequential when it comes to technology and our civil liberties? >> Yeah, I mean this is an incredibly important time for issues about how technology is built, how it's used, and who gets affected by it. I mean, you know, being the new executive director at EFF, [laughter] uh, there couldn't be sort of a more important time for the work that we do every day. Um, to really ensure that technology is supporting rights and justice and freedom and innovation for all people because, you know, we're we're all living digital lives now. You know, when EFF was first founded in 1990, you know, a lot of people thought that digital issues and digital rights issues were really siloed from issues that were sort of basic to rights and justice and democracy. But, you know, now these EFF issues are really the kitchen table issues like um in terms of our lives, our livelihoods, the future of our democracy. Um, and you know, many of the threats that once seemed hypothetical, you know, 36 years ago when EFF was founded, those threats are now really reality. Um, you know, government and corporations, you know, they possess surveillance capabilities that were certainly unimaginable 36 years ago and certainly, you know, even just a few years ago. Um, you know, the the current administration took office with the most massive and sophisticated surveillance infrastructure in the history of our country and the world. Um, you know, there has been a billion dollars a year sent down by just the US government alone to local communities to be building surveillance infrastructure, license plate readers and drones and face surveillance. Um, and then of course again we're living digital lives. So you know we are uh you know when we use most apps when we are you know surfing the web there's a massive amount of information collected about who we are and where we go and what we do and who we know and you know that surveillance infrastructure that's on our streets um that is online so much of it is now being weaponized against communities. So, you know, the threats of, you know, how technology can be used against us. We're really sort sort of seeing um those real examples um in terms of people's uh personal safety. Um how their families are affected. Um I know the the rights that we all have are really, you know, mostly protected by either uh law or by friction. And so we have this, you know, huge surveillance infrastructure. And then right at this moment we have sort of AI really supercharging the ability uh to mine that information and and potentially use it in ways that people would have never expected, never wanted um and that really can be used to harm them. So you know we've got just you know massive threats right now in terms of um you know really wanting to make sure that technology is supporting people rather than threatening people. Um and so this is just an incredibly consequential moment um for issues of privacy, surveillance, free expression. Um and we've got, you know, both we've got sort of this massive surveillance infrastructure, but we've got also the you know the commensurate sort of really um greater concentrations of power by both sort of government in terms of executive power. you know, trying to have greater and greater and more power um in terms of the three branches, but also, you know, corporate power. And it's really shaping speech and creativity and markets and democratic uh institutions and and we're seeing that power being used in ways um increasingly to control the internet uh to try to control people's ability to access information and and comm communicate freely. Um, we're seeing a rise of social media bans in the US and internationally. Um, from California to the UK, Australia, Canada, uh, age verification. So, you know, the work that EFF is doing every day in the courts, in the legislature, in communities, um, it's really fundamental uh, to the future of our countries, our livelihoods, and and literally our lives. So to take the helm of EFF at this moment um it's it's incredibly uh important. It's incredibly um consequential um and the stakes are higher than ever uh to do the work that we all do every day and and for our community to really work together to make sure that technology uh is really supporting rights um and freedom and innovation uh in ways that it can and should be. >> Yeah. I I like the way that you put it how these have become kitchen table issues. I know that just even a couple years ago talking about topics like you know uh uh online censorship right uh internet restrictions uh surveillance tools like automated license plate readers whenever I try to speak to the people about these things they would feel a little ethereal it would be like okay yeah that that sounds important but now in especially in the last couple years we're really seeing the fruits of all these things that we've been watching and how they're you know uh being deployed in the real world having serious consequences on people's lives. >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's those you never you you really don't want those hypotheticals to become realities, but you know, the very things that you know, I I've been in public interest technology work for 20 plus years. Um and sort of right post 911 when the surveillance infrastructure was just being developed when you know the first license plate readers went out on streets or the first video camera systems or or face surveillance. you know, there were always these, you know, very real concerns about, you know, that license plate reader information, you know, collect collects vast amounts of information about who you are, where you go, and what you do. Um, and you know, that then being able to track people who are seeking reproductive health care or, you know, immigrant communities and we are seeing that in action now today. Um and so you know just really realizing that um those threats that you know many of us have been talking about since the early 2000s um you know to see you know ICE in across the country utilizing face surveillance like really seeing the real implications of that um it's uh you know it's this moment where you never want to see that happening but it's also a real opportunity for people to really realize what's really at stake here. Um and that you know digital issues are not these you know um you know fee the digital rights issues aren't these issues that are disconnected from our daily lives from you know our family from our safety from our ability to engage and speak our mind and engage in you know fights for justice across issues whether it be LGBTQ rights whether it be immigrants rights whether it be reproductive justice um whether it be economic justice issues like these digital rights issues are core to um our ability uh to be able to speak freely um and and mobilize for change. And we all have to be um fighting for movements for justice um on both the you know physical world and in the digital world and coming together to really understand the implications um and work in ways collaboratively uh to make sure that technology uh is supporting people and working for people right now. >> Yeah. I I know it's like you said, you know, these things you warn about, you you don't like to see them come true, but the other sort of framing that I've heard from uh people in EFF is this is the moment that EFF was built for, right? This is what we've been preparing for. And to get back to that, uh you wrote in a recent blog post, and this I'm sorry, I'm gonna quote you. These are these are perilous times. It is also a moment of extraordinary uh possibility. And I wanted to ask you what are some of the biggest perils and opportunities in your eyes right now? >> Yeah, I think that the biggest perils are also the biggest opportunities. I'm somebody who studied um you know history um and social movement work in history and there's so many parallels right now to the late 1960s and early '7s. like there's so many, you know, consequential battles right now in terms of rights and justice and um, you know, the future of our democracy. We've got a country that's increasingly divided and we've also in this moment of sort of exponential advances in technology which was very similar moment to the late 60s and early 70s sort of uh at during the civil rights movement and at the rise of um modern computerization. And so, you know, these are our this like this is the moment of our generation, right? A lot of us, you know, have studied and learned about sort of what did people do and how did they show up and how did they work together for change in that moment. Like this is our moment of our generation. Um, and I feel that, you know, very deeply of, you know, how do we all show up at this moment? How do we stand together in this moment? What do we what do we work together to do in this moment? Because people will be looking back at this time of history and saying what did people like us do in this moment when we were kind of faced with uh you know this this trajectory of time of sort of what are the future of of rights and about sort of how people are treated in this country. um you know what is the future of how technology will be used or misused um and so I think that the biggest peril is that we kind of don't come together in this moment and really fight for what's right and the biggest opportunity is that we really um see this o see this moment for what it truly is um and to really come together to to build that power together and you know the blog post you quoted from was my initial blog post ex as executive director and you know it's titled building our future together and that's what I really do believe in is you know um how are we um as the EFF community how are we as a broader community um really standing up in this moment you know from me as executive director to all of our staff here at EFF to our broader community and how are we rippling that out further um to really make sure that um the promise of technology to really support people is how it actually can be used um you know in this current moment and and the future that we're that we're really building together. Yeah. I mean as as I say like you know the future of AI is not written and we can work together to get it right. And so I think at this moment where we are facing all of these challenges, we can also really think deeply about how do we use new technology in a way that really uh makes a difference right now and builds a future that we can all be proud of. >> Yeah, I think that sets the table pretty well for the kind of stakes that we're talking about here. Um, I did want to ask, are there some other like key battles you can point to when you're anticipating what individual fights are going to look like? >> There's a lot of separate issues, but they really are intertwined with, you know, the the common thread, which is, you know, ensuring that technology empowers rather than controls us. Um, and so that's really a common thread of, you know, the work that we do here at EFF, the work that we're doing with partners. Um, again, I started sort of this podcast by talking about, you know, increasingly sophisticated surveillance systems. Um, we really do need to challenge those systems. We need to find ways um to ensure that we can speak freely, move freely um you know not live in a situation where we have to wonder and worry you know who's watching us um and can we actually you know engage in a democratic society. Um you know related to that is also of course our ability to ensure that we can use technology to connect and communicate and mobilize. Um sort of preserving strong encryption which has always been you know core work of EFF. Um no more important time to be able to uh communicate uh safely and securely. Um, you know, EFF is not only, you know, working on those issues from a legal and policy side, but, you know, our own, uh, technologies that we develop and support here at EFF, like, um, you know, privacy badger, which makes sure that, you know, uh, what we do online can't be tracked to certbot, which, you know, currently supports the encryption of more than 45 million domains across the world. like EFF we are working on sort of all different types of work to ensure that there's strong encryption that there's online anonymity um again like this is a moment when AI is developing exponentially being used in so many different ways by government and in the corporate space. Um and you know EFF as an organization is really a unique organization that we bring such uh deep legal expertise, such deep policy expertise but such deep technical expertise as well. And so to really bring that kind of uh nuanced position to ensure that AI is developed and used in ways that respect all of our fundamental rights and also works for those who build it, who use it, and who are affected by it. Um, and I think that that's a um a really important role for EFF to play um in this moment to make sure that we are building AI right and using it in ways that really um are right for the people uh who who develop it, who use it and who are affected by it. Um and again, you know, talked about, you know, the concentrations of power that we're seeing, um that, you know, limit access to new creativity, um and undermine potentially the rights of developers to build and innovate. And so sort of all across the trajectory of work we're doing in the courts, in the legislatores, in communities, the tech tools we're building is really about creating an ecosystem um that understands sort of the legal and policy and technical uh climate and that make sure we we get these things right um in this moment. >> Yeah, I think that in encryption is a really great illustrative example, right? This is a uh a a privacy protective tool that can pro protect you from uh government spying but also corporate surveillance. >> Absolutely. And it and it's a place where you know we have to continually defend it and promote it but we have made just amazing progress in this space. So I think you know when we when EFF worked with Mozilla and let's encrypt in you know back in 2014 the goal was you know to encrypt the web and I think people really thought that that was a moonshot that just like wasn't going to be possible you know there was such a small percentage of websites that were encrypted at that time you know it was not normal to see HTTPS you know across the web now we see that like that has become the backbone you know uh of the web. Um it has you know it has become sort of the norm to see that it is what you know uh protects privacy but also ensures that you know a lot of the commerce can happen across the web and I I can't remember the exact number but I think we're upwards of more than 90% encrypted um right now across the web. the work we do whether it's in the courts whether it's in the legislature what we build in terms of public interest technology tools um you know Serbot is freely available you know we you know to anyone who wants to use it and all of that is supported by our members you know that is the donations of individuals small and large that support the work of EFF every day and so you know just ensuring that we're able to continue our important work in the courts in the legislature and building these tools that really put those um rights into practice and really protect um people and maintain an open web um you know the support of EFF members um you know is is what makes all that happen. And so just want to thank the EFF members uh who are listening and uh if you're not currently a member, I really hope you'll join because that's what enables us to do this important work every day and to um and to move this work forward. >> Speaking of accomplishments, um I I did want to ask given how much is going on, it it's not really always very easy to recognize the progress that's being made. uh for you. Are there any sort of individual victories for digital rights that you think deserve more attention? >> Well, I mean, right, you know, this summer we're we're celebrating an important US Supreme Court win uh in a case called Chhat Tree versus the United States. Um and that uh US Supreme Court win reaffirmed our right to privacy and our location information. Um and you know that win really will help curb one flank of sort of this supercharged government surveillance that we've been seeing because obviously our our location information. Uh you know we are most of us are using our phones carrying our phones all the time. um a lot of location information is collected and Chhatri really is about making sure that the government can't access and can't demand that location information um with without a warrant. Um and so you know the Chadri decision which EFF filed a really important amicus friend of the court brief in in that uh in that case is a really important decision. It's gotten quite a lot of attention, which is good because it's an incredibly important decision and and one where we actually had a win right now in this US Supreme Court, which are becoming far fewer uh these days. Um, but I think what I I want to sort of highlight is I think while people hear about the win, I think what deserves sort of more attention is that the wins don't just happen like winning chhatri in the US Supreme Court in 2026. Um, this win was built through strategic work over time across strategy starting like 15 years ago. Um and so I think what's important to understand and for people to really recognize is that you know it is this strategic work that you know gets planned 10 years in advance um to really think about how can we move cases, how can we work in community, how can we build legislation. Um, and that chryer win this year was really built on a a lot of building blocks of doing, you know, lower, you know, doing cases in the lower courts starting in the 2010s. Um, you know, passing landmark legislation in California called Calcao, which requires a warrant for electronic communications, including location information. Um, which I spearheaded with EFF lawyers before coming to EFF. Um, if folks could actually see my office, they'd see the signed bill right over my shoulder for Calekba. Um, it's about, you know, working also with companies for for how they can better protect location information and seeing those policies go into place. Um, so it's all these little it's all these different building blocks that have to be there successes over time that get you to a win like the Chachri case and um that takes strategic thinking. It also takes sustained resources for this type of work and it takes expertise across you know lawyering and policy work and technical expertise and so um that's something that EFF you know brings that continuity of thinking and that strategic work that enables us um you know to to really uh fight and win against you know some of these really powerful forces. Um and again, you know, the ability to do that work over time and to stick with that work um even when we, you know, have challenges along the way is because um that you know, we do have so many um really staunch supporters at EFF and just, you know, uh we have we have much more to do. um and you know need you all in the fight to to help us to help us really um meet this moment but also think about well what is the win that we're building right now for 10 years from now. Yeah, I think that's a good point about uh chatri the uh geoence warrants case that concerns uh digital draget surveillance and I know that in the news uh other places people might just hear about this ruling and say oh great you know this is a positive sort of development but I know within EFF among our lawyers this is a thing that people you know we've been writing friend of the court briefs for years right as it moves all the way up to the Supreme Court we've 've been following and like you said, not just uh this individual case, but the entire space uh about warrant requirements for digital surveillance is a a yearslong uh and if you're not paying especially close attention sometimes a little bit invisible process that does build up to, you know, big victories like this one. >> Yeah. And I I think even just you know EFF issues being now kitchen table issues like all of that is happening behind the scenes right um and you know when I started my career and as you said a lot of times people didn't really understand the work that we were doing um or or weren't sure how it sort of intersected with you know the issues that they were experiencing every day but you know now how technology is built how it's used it affects all of us. It affects, you know, all of us of all ages, of all backgrounds. Like, we are all living these digital lives. And, you know, for me, the work starts with really recognizing that digital rights issues are are not a siloed policy issue. You know, we we have to fight and win on the digital terrain to organize, to speak freely, um to access health care, to find work, to receive an education, to participate fully in democracy. Um and so you know we we have to we have to sort of understand exactly you know how critical these types of issues are. Um and to you know work together uh to really make sure that um you know lawmakers understand the implications uh uh and you know that we are we are both sort of defending the rights we have but moving the law forward and ensuring that there aren't laws put into place that actually don't make sense. You know EFF is uh working on the local level on the state level on the federal level. you know, there are a lot of bills that don't make sense to pass right now. Um, EFF's been, uh, you know, working extensively uh, to try to address, you know, some 3D printer bills that would, you know, undermine innovation and open- source um, software. So we and again on age verification and social media bans um you know not not every you know EFF really has the the nuance view to be able to bring um deep expertise on on the law and the technical side uh to debates that are happening at sort of all level of of government and in the corporate space. >> Well I I look forward to uh spending more time fighting alongside you Nicole. Uh thanks again for stopping by. Well, thanks so much uh for having me on the podcast and uh thank you for all the work that you do and for the EFF community support and all the work we do every day at EFF. >> And now events and opportunities. Christian, how can people connect with EFF in the weeks to come? >> Yeah, on Labor Day weekend, September 3rd through the 7th, we're going to be at Dragon Con in Atlanta, Georgia. You can spot effers in their favorite cosplays while speaking in the electronic frontiers forums track. Then later in the month, you can find EFF's executive director Nicole Ozer for a happy hour in Washington DC where she'll be chatting about her vision for leading EFF forward during this critical moment. And last up in October, you can spot EFF at TechCrunch Disrupt. We'll have a membership table where you can learn more about our work and be sure to use our discount code TCF25 Disrupt. if you grab a ticket for yourself. You can learn more about all these events and other ways to see EFF at eff.org/events. >> Thanks, Christian. Well, that's it for this week's Aector. Aector is a podcast by the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the leading nonprofit defending online civil liberties. Our theme music is I don't know by Grapes. EFF promotes digital innovation, defends free speech, fights illegal surveillance, and protects rights and freedoms for all. Become an EFF member today at eff.org/podfan. >> Your organization can also join the fight for digital freedom by supporting EFF and this podcast. Our work inspires a broad audience of activists, technologists, legal experts, creators, gamers, hackers, and everyone who relies on digital tools in their daily lives. Learn more about sponsorship at eff.org/thanks.