How Men Keep Sabotaging Themselves - Dr Robert Glover

what's wrong with being a nice guy that's that's a good question you know when I put out a book called No More Mr Nice Guy I'm sure a lot of people picked it up it wait a minute there's already enough not nice guys out there why somebody write a book teaching men how to be not nice the the problem with being a nice guy just a quick elevator pitch is is that a nice guy is a guy who inaccurately internalize the belief system a very young age I'm not okay just as I am so he's trying to do two things very unconsciously usually one is become what he thinks everybody else wants him to be so he'll be liked and loved and get his needs met and get laid hopefully uh regularly and hide anything about himself that might get a negative reaction from people uh hiding his needs his wants his sexuality so while he's trying to get laid he's hiding his sexuality um so a core problem with nice guy syndrome is nice guys tend to be un uh unauthentic uh there there there's not not a real them there they're trying to become something hide something and uh that tends to make them fairly dishonest untrustworthy frustrated resentful passive aggressive a whole list of traits that can go along and and mainly it prevents and I'm a recovering nice guy so I'm not speaking down to anybody you know it keeps us from just being ourselves living up to our our full potential having what we want in life having a good time and so just a lot of baggage comes along with it what are the component parts of being a nice guy what are the traits that they embody or project where you what you'll recognize most often and what listeners May recognize in themselves core tendency is often people pleasing seeking external validation and and for men usually that seeking validation from women even even gay guys I find tend to do it uh even if they don't plan on having sex with the women they we we can talk more about this but we're we've learned from birth to please women so there's that people pleasing that external validation um failing to live up to one's full potential a basic core dishonesty you know thinking you know I'm I'm a good guy I'm pretty honest I always laugh when men tell me they're pretty honest I say that's actually a contradiction of terms um you're honest or you're not um and um and just you know for most nice guys there's just a certain dull depression that they live with just thinking you know I should be happy I should be getting what I want I should be getting love I I should I should but I'm not and I don't know why not and so there's there's a lot of characteristics but the core piece you'll see the most often is that people pleasing that seeking of external validation who is the prototypical night guy Avatar like describe him for me oh he's you know he's just just that guy that's you know walking through life trying to make everybody happy trying not to do anything wrong don't want to [ __ ] anything up doesn't want to piss anybody off uh goes along to get along you know we've heard that you know happy wife happy life if I just make everybody happy everything's good uh I I have a course that I've taught for a number of years called nice guys don't finish last they R him midle management so he's good at being good but you know he doesn't Excel he doesn't stand out because standing out is actually really scary for nice guys uh it's too much attention it's too much expectation um so you know when I started working with nice guys 30 years ago um most of the men I worked with you know probably were around my age I was in my early 30s at that time and um so it was a lot of baby uh Baby Boom generation guys you know they they were trying to be different than their fathers the World War II you know man uh they were in that protest generation against Vietnam growing their hair out getting in touch with their feminine side and and so a lot of the men I worked with you know kind of grew up in that era but I've been doing this for a while and so you know my son's 38 for example so you know I I work with Millennials Millennials men younger than that and what's funny is whereas my generation lot of them men uh kind of attribute part of their nice guys stuff to well my dad wasn't there or you know my parents divorced or you know he worked all the time or he was an alcoholic nowadays I hear a lot of men say oh my dad was a nice guy and and about all he taught me about life was don't piss off your mother and and because he was walking around eggshells trying not to piss off my mother so you know I I've seen that whole range all the way from the guys that were reacting to you know the the the [ __ ] um patriarchal father to now the guys that were raised by nice guys and they don't know any other way of being it's like one generation had the Tyrant and the other generation had the compliant that's a good way to put it that's nice yeah the Tyrant to compliant yeah it was um but here's the interesting thing right is it's so fascinating that you had one generation that was rebelling in their neness even if that niess isn't that nice yeah and then another generation that was following in their Ness so there seems to be a particular stickiness to niess if tyrants that are emotionally unavailable and not nice are able to create nice guys and nice fathers are also we're in big trouble we're so what's why is it so prevalent what is what is this pull are we as men are we inculcating ating or absorbing something from the world is this the way that we were raised by Mom and Dad is the what's the Gen what's the origin what's the Genesis the seed of this well that's a good question of course and of of course what every nice guy wants how did I get to be this way you know who cursed me with this yeah yeah I I quickly learned when I started working with nice guys again 30 years ago that there is no one you know one size fit all how you how you got to be a nice guy I I thought there was it for I thought they were all like me you know uh disconnected from their father in some significant way uh you know significantly raised by their mother trying to please their mom and and uh and I thought well that that explains it all but it didn't and um there's so many pieces to go into a lot of men I work with that identify as being nice guys I think part of is their temperament part of is just they're easygoing you know my my my mother would often say in adulthood to women I was dating oh Bobby never did like conflict and I'm I'm thinking well thanks Mom you know what are you telling these women be nice to my son don't be mean to him but I'm also thinking who does like conflict you know I I do tend to marry women who like to fight but I for me it's kind of like you know can't can't can't you know instead of us you you doing something that starts a fight I say to them can't I just yell at you a little bit you cry and then I hold you is't that really what you know this is all about anyway and my wife will always say no it doesn't countless you're really mad at me um so I I don't like conflict in particular so that's my temperament so disposition that many of the nice guys will have the raw materials of someone that's a little verse Y part of my nature but but that's just kind of one category of nice guy the other one that that I bumped into I call often those I'm so good nice guy he's the guy that just always did everything right no matter what you know but the other side I talk about in No More Mr Nice Guy is what I call I'm so bad nice guy this is the one that you know maybe started rebelling at an early age maybe had ADHD undiagnosed you know he's always impulsive getting in trouble you know not following through getting yelled at getting punished starts doing drugs and alcohol at 14 you know drops out of school and then maybe at some point has a come to Jesus moment religion military gets married as a kid death in the family he goes I got I I got to quit you know self-destructing I I gotta I got to be nicer so there's that kind of nice guy as well so it's a different temperament than than the than the other one of the pieces you know there's so many pieces that go into this but to answer your question how do we what's the stickiness part again I think a real core piece that I see with so many nice guys is this attempt to to please women and I I was talking to somebody the other day it it makes perfect sense because if you think about it we're all born to a woman our earliest caregiver if it's not Mom it's probably some other woman so from the time we're born our very survival our sustenance our okayness depends on a woman and probably us getting along with that woman that's probably a good thing right and so that's really normal that the our first experiences are how to how to negotiate a relationship with a woman to make that big powerful holds our our life in her hands uh person how to make sure that's okay and I don't know about in the UK but when I was growing up uh in Seattle I had one male teacher before I got to Junior High does four times more female fighter pilots in the US Air Force by percentage than there are male kindergarten teaches there you go you've done your research so so I had one teacher so that means just to learn how to get from second to third grade not only had to learn my Reading Writing and arithmetic but how to please a woman okay all of that's fine there's the there's nothing inherently wrong with that I think that's actually probably the way it's always been but historically I mean if we go back even two or three generations but if you go through most of human history at about age 12 the man came into the boy's life took him you know from the women took him out had a masculine initiation taught him how to get comfortable being uncomfortable how to face his fear how to live in the scary world of the masculine and therefore and spent most of his time from them on out with with men in the masculine and and so he got he moved through that what do I have to do to please a woman so I think that's a really normal thing that to to try to please women survival for for every young boy but what's what's missing is there's no initiation to teach them how to how to go face their fears in the scary world of the masculine and quit seeking the approval and validation of women because there's this really interesting Paradox that I I took me years to find out and you know a lot of men I work with takes you know it's it's a big surprise is oh pursuing women and trying to please them doesn't make them interested in you it doesn't make them like you it doesn't make them want to have sex with you no it actually doesn't actually not trying to please women tends to make a guy more interesting to women in general that's a big Paradox to a lot of the men I work with and it was for me you mean mean all this me listening them talk about their problems me trying to be different than the jerks they complain about me repressing my sexuality so it's not like I just want that one thing from them you know all that doesn't make them interested in me no it doesn't actually but they do seem to be drawn and attracted to the guy who's comfortable in his own skin living a life you know on his terms connected with men uh put in a big dent in the universe that is really attractive but there's no no how do I get This Woman's approval involved in that whole mix what are the covert contracts oh I'm glad you asked that that's um that's my favorite part I'm No More Mr Nice Guy and I know uh many men read it say Robert that is the biggest takeaway the covert contracts are unspoken often unconscious agreements that the nice guy has with everything that's not him with the world with god with women you know which just how things work and in the book I I I I'm a little bit General but I'm broken it down to three specific covert contracts that nice guys have they're all if then uh if I do this then this will happen they they all uh are basically manipulative they all have strings attached and often the nice guy isn't aware of them and nobody else is either so covert contract number one if I'm a good guy I will be liked and loved and get my and and going back to and the women I'm trying to impress will want to be with me and have sex with me so if I'm good I'll be liked and love number two if I meet everybody else needs without them having to ask then they will meet my needs without me having to ask now unfortunately nobody else knows this contract exists so they don't know they're supposed to be reading our minds and figure out what we want like we're trying to do for them another core problem with this is that nice guys are actually really terrible receivers we're not good at letting people do for us we're not good at giving to ourselves so that's covert contract number two covert contract number three is if I do everything right then I will have a smooth Problem free world so it's kind of a Peter panish kind of thing you know I I I do everything right I'm I'm a good guy but unfortunately we're we're we're the player the referee the scorekeeper we got the big scoreboard hey I've done everything right how come this stuff still isn't going the way it's supposed to go in my life so nice guys are walking around these Cobra contracts and and you ask you know what are well what what what's the core characteristic of a nice guy one of them is is that they're often really resentful you know they might say well I'm kind of bugged or I'm kind of frustrated but they're really resentful and often rageful because I've been doing this I've been doing it right I've been following the rules I've been you know being the good guy I've been meeting your needs I've been you know following all the rules you know how come I'm when's it my turn how come I'm not getting all the all the stuff that I thought I would and that leads to a lot of resentments and then that's one way I can tell I tell nice guys they well how do I know if I'm if I'm using contracts and I go you'll know because you're walking around resentful and pissed off either because you didn't get back in turn or you didn't get appreciated for for all that that you did I I heard somebody share a quote the other day that I really like to me is another really nice way of putting covert contracts and this I guess was from Neil Strauss and he says un um unspoken expect expectations are premeditated resentment isn't that that that is what happens phal contract phenomenal by him yeah that so the frustration and the resentfulness that's coming from offering to the world something that you think should be universally liked you have there is there's no way that anybody could be offended by what I'm doing I'm following the rules I'm offering the world lot whilst asking for nothing in return yeah and the fact that not asking for something in return results in you getting nothing in return funny how that works I I don't know but it's I suppose this as well plays into the dishonesty bit and it's so I understand I would say that I'm I'm very much in Nice Guy category um very much a people pleaser uh my temperament is to be averse to conflict as well um I've made a dent in many ways but it's been done it's been done by weaving my way through avoiding much of the the conflict uh that that I would maybe need to um so I suppose I can be at least in some regards a uh a paragon or or like a a a role model for the successful nice guy in in many ways and and me too you know again I don't like conflict but you know I you know I'm doing okay there's something I always felt I always felt the fact that I wasn't like my my go-to isn't typically uh aggression that's not what I lean into um despite the fact I've got a background of fighting and and doing other things and physical training and stuff like that I always felt like it emasculated me the fact that there was something more heroic about being someone that was quick to anger you know there was something kind of typically masculine about that and I think I was not strong enough to say ashamed but it felt it it didn't feel as Grand to be someone who would be I know that there's an ability in you know being under control having your emotions under control um but there's also a degree of fragility I think that you can sometimes feel with that also well let me give one way to maybe look at the model and and see if it fits what you're saying is that when I was writing No More Mr Nice Guy I really focused a lot on shame being a core Foundation of nice Sky syndrome that internalized belief I'm not okay and inaccurately internalized belief from our earliest life experience few weeks old few few months old by the time I finished writing the book and it was you know getting ready to be published by that time I'd really come to also see that anxiety plays maybe an equally significant role uh in nice gu syndrome so where everything that nice guys are doing is trying to manage that sense of Shame I'm not not okay I'm unlovable I'm defective and their anxiety States you know I might piss somebody off I might get rejected I might get hurt I might lose I might live foolish so you know both of those States really play into it and one of the things I've come to see is is that whether we've got just to kind of break it down whether we got kind of the [ __ ] jerk over here that fighter that quick to fight guy or the wussy dorat you know the nice guy over here that's the avoidant and and kind of doesn't like the conflict I think they're they're both on the the same Continuum I think they are both in a fight flight freeze mode of managing their interstates of anxiety the nice guy is in the flight freeze bwn sometimes added to that list and what we'd call The Jerk is in the fight mode now they're both still just trying to manipulate people and situations outside of them because they're anxious the nice guy does it by being nice and avoidant and not upsetting anybody and you know waiting for it to blow over you all that kind of where is you know the guy the other end of the spectrum is is just he just quick to react with aggression to manage the people and situations around him so so he doesn't feel afraid and anxious and so men will often you know they'll read my book or you know they'll hear some of my information and they'll say Robert I get that being a nice guy isn't working and I don't want to be that but I don't want to be the [ __ ] either you know where where's that middle ground and I go I actually don't know where the Tipping Point is between two dysfunctional extremes it doesn't exist right what what we're actually talking about is is going to a different plane a different level where we actually learn to soothe ourselves where we actually learn to be assertive where we actually learn to have boundaries where we actually learn to be differentiated and ask ourselves what do I want and follow through on it where there's you know there's a whole different plane of behavior versus just what do I do to not feel anxious here but again the nice guy and the jerk probably neither one is aware that they're trying to manage their anxiety States and and it isn't until you actually get told that maybe that's what you're doing you go oh wow I never thought about that before and then then you actually can feel your anxiety rather than trying to just manage it to where it doesn't you know make you feel so anxious is it a desire to feel safe then to feel reassured yeah I I think you know safety is at the core because when I took Child Development 101 back in grad school I think the very first thing they told us one of the few things maybe I remembered was that for every child abandonment equals death so children come into the world inherently vulnerable right there's no one to take care of us it takes humans longer to mature and self-sufficiency than any other animal on the planet you know our grandfathers maybe that was about 12 or 14 you know uh my age was more you know considered 18 21 22 now it's like 35 for a young man to you know mature to be able to take care of himself that's a joke um but but it's true so we're dependent completely dependent and if somebody doesn't take care of us we die so if we get abandoned neglected uh we die so I know for me like when my wife you know I'm uh my wife Lupita and I have been married for seven years now Mexican woman I met here in Mexico and um she gets a look on her face and like I I'll go into you know this mod of I got I got to fix it she's upset she's angry I got to make it better and you know I've been working on this stuff for 30 years so you know not like I don't know you know what's happening and I'll just watch myself have this anxiety state that I got to I got to talk her down through over get her back to good you know make her happy again and I'm thinking why am I worried about what this short little Mexican woman why what look she has on her face I love her of course but why why is that triggering such depth of anxiety and really as I really sat with it and worked with it it triggers a really old emotional state that does feel like I'm going to die if this doesn't get better right now I'm going to die and I I don't actually have that thought in my head but my reaction to it feels that intense that's the embodied sensation if you that's the EMB body the nervous system my emotional operating system yeah yeah yeah I wonder stepping outside of relationships for a second or relationships with anybody including friendships one of the patterns that I've noticed especially amongst some of my friends that are nice guys or recovering nice guys is a desire to do things right oh of course to like a task in and of itself uh I would guess that nice guys are probably more orderly than the normal person sources will be stacked in the in the right way you know mustn't have a room because again you'd think that you'd think that okay I got to do it right I gotta get do orderly but you know I've got my camera angled where you can't see what's over on the sides all right it's a mess it is is not terrible but um it it is Messier on the sides than it is behind me okay and so again a lot of the nice guys I work with they may have perfectionistic expectations of themselves um and some worked really hard to to to meet them and then they're they're in a state of anxiety all the time but others I know they go you I haven't made my bed in years you know I don't pick up after myself I can't remember the last time I I checked my bank account balance so you think would be that but but ironically um there's not and and here's a piece that that it may sound odd on on the surface of it but when I talk with nice guys about their fears and their anxieties I think one of the biggest anxiety or fear state that that the typical nice guy might have isn't so much a fear of failure fear of foolishness fear looking foolish fear of loss fear of making a mistake is fear of success because what happens if I do get it right what happens if I Rise up to a level of success and then you know there's things that can happen all of a sudden the bar gets raised the expectations are higher I'm in a brighter Spotlight I might get attacked I'm more visible um there there's so many I I'll lose control over my time all of these built-in anxieties of what happens if I'm too successful so again A lot of times the nice guys will unconsciously I don't really like the word self-sabotage but they'll get in their own way of living up to to their full potential and keeping things messy around you is actually a pretty good way to you know you know not live up to your full potential not check in your bank account every now and then you know that'll bite you on the app sooner or later isn't it isn't it interesting that the almost universality of high ability of dishonest do you want to uh do you need to sort the dog this is a regular occurrence I can see she's usually in the room with me and and she's a deer she's my bring her in she can chill yeah the problem is she's upset because somebody's out front and I'm the only one home and I don't want to go deal with whoever might be out there okay it could just be my wife getting home with my daughter from school could be so um yeah she's just being a good girl let me know exactly poy there's somebody out there there's somebody out there let's go let's go and it may have been she just saw cat so you know I I I don't know so be it um she walked away so hopefully she's bored of you now yeah it's interesting that there is uh this almost universality of uh not having healthy boundaries yeah of being dishonest of being manipulative although you don't think that you are you're you're overly pliable in a way that means that you change yourself to get the outcome that you want from people but it seems at least based on what you've said here that there there are appears to be a boundary at least typically among the nice guys where this doesn't outside of relationships friendships family dating Etc this doesn't spread out into a uh overbearing desire for for orderliness and and sort of perfectionism in all areas of life you know with regards to an obsession about getting it right about being everything being I just what I'm to say is it's not univ where the other where the other stuff is yeah but it's what it shows or at least what it says to me is that there's something it's it's obvious that ground zero for this stuff is relationships you know that that would have been my first thought as well because it is for me and it is for many nice guys but you know what I've I've seen guys who are total Nice Guys in relationship and they get on the job and they kick ass you know that they're highly successful at work I've known other people that it showed up you know uh at work where they troll nice guy and going along to getting along and never really stepping up or never launching you know that that business and but at home you know they their wife would say he's not a nice guy he's nice to everybody else but he's not nice to me so it it can be interesting and and that would again when I started working with nice guys I just assume there's a one piece fits all and and there's really not now there are those certain commonalities but I think partly because we're also dealing with temperament that for example maybe you and I had very different life experiences maybe we have some similarities of temperament some differences different life experiences we're not going to turn out just the same we may still have those Tendencies of you know seeking approval avoiding conflict you know kind of a uh oh you know I'm so good why doesn't everybody like me and everybody try to be just like me um there might be some similarities but we might be very different and still relate to this as yes I'm a nice guy understood what about hidden Behavior they keep things hidden from themselves they keep things hidden else why is that so common why is it common because you know those two things you know when we first started you asked me you know what what is the nice guy and basically and and I said he's the guy trying to get everybody's approval and validation you know holding your finger up which ways a wind blowing but the other piece is that hiding things about ourselves you know hiding anything for example that might get that look on my wife's face you know oh she got that look I must have done something I better not do that again and again that began at a very very early age when getting that look from somebody important to us might result in getting slapped getting smacked getting neglected getting yelled at getting shaken whatever so nice guys is is part of that I got to hide whatever there is about me that tends to create these negative reactions around me but often there's another piece not again not Universal but often for Nice Guys in their family system somebody has been defined as the needy person the most important person could be Dad could be mom could be a sibling and their needs were more important there all the attention and focus went on you know making sure dad never got pissed off making sure Mom didn't go on a tiate making sure you know brother doesn't you know whatever you know he's sick or he's he's out of control so often for nice guys we we try to become this needless want never Rock the Boat never be a moment's problem kind of person so what we interpret is us having needs draws too much attention and and you know my their needs are more important than mine and so nice guys were again trying to avoid that negative reaction the two things we often most hide are our needs and wants and our sexuality the sexual that's kind of easy to to put a finger on you know we live in a culture that we're bombarded with sexual stimuli everywhere you go but still there's still that you know that religious message that sex is Bad Evil save it for the one you love shame yeah just the whole shame wrapped around sexuality you'd think that would have gone away by now but it's not it's as strong as ever so for the the the the the very young nice guy when kind kind of back up a little bit back to to the Child Development 101 stuff again every child when they experience discomfort of any kind you know they're hungry and they don't get fed they're they're they wet their diaper they mess in their diaper they don't get changed they're cold they don't get heal you know they have a stomach ache they don't get burped Whatever Whenever a child experiences discomfort their children are narcissistic by Nature emotionally they assume this is me I I I'm the cause of this I did something wrong I'm bad they don't think it because the thinking brain isn't on lineing at this early age the emotional brain fight flight free survival brain is and so a child will try to do two things in a very primitive way a non-thinking non-rational purely emotional way they will try to medicate the feeling States they're having suck their thumb eat cry sleep smile whatever to try to not feel bad right now and again in a very pre very primitive preverbal kind of way try to do try to not do whatever that was that caused the uncomfortable States or do something different and so that begins at a really early age and so the child is these these this shame is is inaccurately internalized at an emotional level I must have done something wrong that's why this is happening so I gotta figure either how to do that different or not do that hi and so all of this comes so early is part of an emotional language an emotional operating system it's not in words it's not in picture memory and it's it's primitive so here we are trying to figure out how not to have these uncomfortable experiences and prevent them from happening again and one of the best things our primitive brain came up with is hide hide you know what whatever that I have needs oh I have needs I I get I'm hungry when I have needs I get slapped oh their needs are more important than mine so just hiding is part of that because we think it must be about me that's causing these pain painful negative experiences to be happening to us does this mean that nice guys often have coping strategies maybe they'll overeat maybe they'll be compulsive with social media use or porn or video games or substances or whatever the thing about that model I just gave you that child development model every human does that every human we all just pick usually again based on temperament and maybe just life experiences in birth order we all pick what are we going to do how are we going to try to manage this and I sucked my thumb times in kindergarten think maybe I was trying to deal with some uncomfortable self sothing self soothing exactly trying to manage some anxiety there so that's what I did now we we go through childhood then we hit adolescence and now we really want people's approval and want to fit in and be noticed and have attention all of this really you know gets uh fueled with with with uh our hormones and need for attention where you know then it really gets solidified and we pretty much carry these routines into adulthood so yeah trying to be perfect might be one you know trying not to be perfect because my brother was perfect and I couldn't you know compete with them so I'll be the opposite I I'll I'll make the mess um yeah when I eat I sure do feel better when I spend all my day and night playing video games I I don't feel stress when I'm oh isn't porn amazing I didn't know that this existed look what how I feel um oh you know if I get straight A's look I I finally get some validation but I don't know if it's ever enough I better keep you know succeeding performing you know I better get into great amazing shape so I can be valuable oh I'll never get in good shape so who cares I'll just keep eating it can take so many different forms and the only real logic to it is the the infant logic that you and I and everybody else had at a few weeks and a few months old why are nice guys bad receivers because we think it makes us bad you know the the thing is is that as I said most of us is is most nice guys internalize this belief well I because I have needs that's why I I have these bad things that happen to me if I don't have needs bad things won't happen and often again they I I could I could look around in my family oh Dad's needs are more important well let's all make sure dad's okay oh now mom's unhappy let's all make sure Mom's okay my little brother was a general [ __ ] up at pretty much everything oh okay you know we got to make sure little brother's okay because he's gonna [ __ ] up and I kind of like oh if I don't have needs if I just kind of do everything right I'll be The Golden Child I'll get some validation you know I I I won't get noticed too much and get in trouble and and so again that my story it's not every nice guy story but there's some fundamental piece in there that if if it's visible if people know I have needs like that makes me vulnerable it puts me at risk it gives people control over me I'll owe people something so in my own personal work one of the earliest things I had to start doing was was making me a priority where I put well I did for me I I I'd do for everybody else but I I wouldn't make me a priority and you know I I'd make sure you know my wife and kids they all went to the dentist I wouldn't go to the dentist oh they you know if I saw something on sale I'd buy it for them but I wouldn't buy it for me so I had to start taking good care of me the next step that that kind of came with that but came a little bit later for me was actually beginning to surround myself with people who wanted to help me meet my needs and then actually letting them that was really anxiety producing to let people do things for me and I I had to consciously just go okay I'm it's as simple as like I said I'll take the garbage out and you know we got to take the garbage from the kitchen to the front gate it's 20 feet gotta unlock the gate put it out on the street my if I'm taking the garbage out my wife will go do you need help well no I don't I don't need any help to take a bag of garbage from the kitchen to the front and I and so I my gut respons always say no but then I realize well I don't need any help but she wants to be with me she wants to accompany me she doesn't want to think I'm doing all the work well she's not she she's very hard worker I go yeah yeah come help me do I really need the help no but it was actually it took me a while I'm still learning that way you know she's not really thinking I need help taking the garbage out she just wants to come take the garbage out with me just to walk to the street with me and back you know that's it's okay well who might have say no to that that's the thing about being a bad receiver it robs people of the enjoyment of helping you you've you've stole my words when um when I got I got divorced in my late 40s after 25 years of marriage to two different women and again when I started dating and started meeting nice girls you know who wanted to do anything for me wouldn't ever say what they wanted wouldn't make a decision I thought oh I I had empathy for my two Ex-Wives what I put them through with being a nice guy but I remember I was dating one woman and I met her because she sold me shoes at Nordstrom and she so she worked in retail fashion sales and I remember one time she came over to my part and I done some laundry left it on my couch she started folding my laundry and I said you you don't have to do that she goes no I like doing it and and she goes and I'm good at it and you know so she folds on my laundry puts a little stack on the end of my bed and she goes but I won't put it away for you I said I'm not putting it away either I'm leaving it out there to remind me somebody loves me you know that that somebody wanted to do something nice for me after that I started leaving my clean laundry on the couch so she could have the joy of coming over and because it gave her pleasure now who am I to rob her of that pleasure and I need to work on it because how am I going to receive great things in this world if I'm not good at receiving if I can't if I can't let somebody fold my laundry how am I G to receive the blessings of wealth of Fame of opportunity of Adventure so it's is a very conscious practice it was for me to how do I let people give and let them have the pleasure of doing it so the solution is not being a bad guy because a lot of people you could try yeah so you know nice guys finish last the bad guy gets the girl um you know women will um sleep with the alpha but marry the beta you know Pick Your Meme or cliche of choice they're all out there sure to to to come up with and it seems let I'm going to try and interpret what I think the your philosophy is and and let me know if I get it right I think the downsides of being a nice guy although subtle and often completely opaque to the nice guys themselves yes are kind of evident given um can become evident given enough crowdsourcing of sense making so people and Community come up with memes and and characters in TV shows and stuff like that right the solution that the low resolution solution that then gets proposed is if x x being nice guy is bad and doesn't get what you want then opposite of X yeah Y which is bad guy must be good so the prevalence of Inc you know uh treat her like you don't like her uh like why women love Chads like that kind of more um lothario approach to attracting women and and and getting what you want in life and sort of you know being ruthless and stuff is that a an erroneous solution to the problem of nice guy it's the a core problem with what you just proposed is it is equally inauthentic as as the other and it's equally attached to some external outcome by trying to figure out how to do it right right have I just do this right again then I'll get the women to approve of me we're still in the same boat we're just looking for a different right way of doing it now as simple as this sounds you know like it when I do like interviews with like uh a female coach that that maybe works with men and um and I say something that you know generalization like the feminine meaning all things feminine you know women but dogs cats babies opportunity money weather whatever I'll say is highly attracted to a man who's comfortable in his own skin knows where he's going and looks like he's having a good time going there and the women you know coaches interviewers podcasters on the always go oh yes and I'm going okay they're they're reacting kind of their nervous system is reacting to that thing I didn't say the guy's an [ __ ] I didn't say he treats women bad I didn't say he doesn't give a [ __ ] about he he's he's centered in his own body he's he's differentiated he's asking asking himself what do I want what's important to me following through on that you know not leaving the messes behind not trying to be perfect not seeking anybody's approval he's on Mission he's on purpose and in my experience the feminine is highly attracted to that you don't have to work at at getting the feminine to be attracted now are you always GNA have feminine approval I told someone the other day this has never come out of my mouth before but I said actually there is no standard of feminine approval the the feminine is not about standards it's just about whatever is moving masculine is standards you you go into the masculine world you know when you've lived up to the standard when you've hit the ball out of the park when you've scored a touchdown when you made A's when you you know made x amount of money the masculine doing standards are clear we can go into that world and go I've achieved I've made it we have it we have the status rigorous it's orderly it requires something of you there's discipline the Fe there is no such thing as feminine approval I mean ask any guy even a woman who approved of them dearly in one moment I'll ask them have you ever had experiences where the very next moment she was unapproving of you and nothing about you had changed you had even done and guys all go yeah isn't that the way it always works yeah they you know one minute I when I was dating I had women tell me Robert you're the most amazing man I'm so glad I met you I'm so grateful I'm so happy and then never hear from him again or say Robert you know after two weeks you know I'm I'm taking a break from dating or I'm giving my ex another try and I'm go what just happen that's the world of the feminine it does it isn't nailed down in orderly so we we have to quit seeking feminine approval um one of my certified coaches wrote a book that that that I really like but there's a line in there it said that a man does not mature until he quits seeking the love of a woman as long as we're seeking love that's a feminine trait as long as we're seeking to get that approval that love that validation from a woman we're in a loop that there's no escape from but when we when we can self- validate when we're on purpose when we're living life on our terms all of a sudden that makes us very attractive to the feminine it will come to us that's that's my experience it will come now as soon as you turn and go oh it's here how do I keep it how do I make no no no we just blew it all of a sudden now they're gonna get that look on their face again like I go what' I do wrong so if we take the how do I get the women's approval out of the equation you're more likely to get it now does that mean you just don't give a [ __ ] don't care whatever that's not what I'm again it's not black and white we men want to make it black and white it must be this or it must be that no it's this this is another level that we rise to that lets us put a dent in the universe that lets us live with purpose and passion that lets us connect deeply with others that lets us be vulnerable and courageous that actually invites the the love into our life that that we desire rather than seeking it well ultimately I was watching this um video from Alanda baton from the school of life do you know that guy British philosopher phenomenal Insight yeah you you were the second person who mentioned him in the last two or three days I always pay attention when some whenever I hear someone's name like you know when I whenever I heard you need to get on Chris Williamson show when I heard that three times in the same week you know I thought wait a minute that name sounds familiar oh we're already we're already booked in I'm on he's on my calendar what do you what do you know it's um so I I use a I was just say what you're referring to he wrote an oped article in the New York Times maybe 10 years ago and and the art the title was why you will marry the wrong wrong person yeah I love I love that article I copied it it's it's just classic he's outstanding uh I've he's on my Mount Rushmore of of of of guest he was very formative for me um one of the reasons that going to go on a tangent about why I love alander Boton one of the reasons I really love him is he's so softly spoken and he's so embodied in the Nuance of being fallible of how our emotions run the show he's not posturing he's unbelievably smart you know he's very very well versed in Renaissance Art and history and poetry and and sculpture and and and and all all this stuff but there's no posturing from his left brain yeah there's none of this sort of over rality he he accepts with complete Face Value the fact that we can be self-contradictory and embarrassing and and all the rest of it but anyway he has he has this line in a video that I was watching recently where he talks about a person whose greatest achievement would be after their death people would say they never made a fuss oh they didn't make a fuss they didn't you know they didn't cause any Ripple they didn't make any waves and he's talking about largely uh an equivalent of the nice guy this person who's you know overly pliable who's concerned about upsetting others who's doing all of this stuff and uh I just it really it really sort of struck home like oh my God like that's the that's the inheritance and the Legacy which is waiting for you and ultimately you can make it to the end of your life having either made all of the Messes in the world or made zero mess at all depending on whether you go bad guy mode or Nice Guy mode um but like your legacy as you look back on your life is going to be one of you playing a Persona you're never going to really be able to connect to any of the things that you do people accomplishments praise compliments adoration money because it wasn't you that earned that you didn't earn your money the role that you're playing earned the money the role that you're playing got the marriage the role that you're playing got the relationship or the job raise or or created the family or the the billion dooll company it wasn't you wasn't you that kind of messes with your head doesn't it scary you know when you were describing and I can't pronounce his name pronounce his name aland de Boton oh yeah that's beautiful when you were describing him I'm sitting there thinking I'm a straight guy and that guy sounds sexy as hell the way you were described I mean he's got the classic philosophers build but so be it so be it here here's something else so here's something else that I've had in in my mind um since looking at your work and kind of I've spent a lot of time over the last three years uh looking at evolutionary psychology mating Dynamics so on and so forth we don't see especially from women at the moment many conversations online about nice guys about guys being too nice about guys being too pliable a lot of the conversation skews toward guys being too toxic guys being too immature but it's immature it it tends to be in a in a toxic manner it's sort of the use and discard the use and abuse uh the the very sort of transient transactional nature what is the reason do you think that there isn't as much popularity if if and I don't disagree I think that a huge problem will be the pliability and and dishonesty and niess of men is it just less tweetable to to have that is the reason that you can't find men I've got all of these men that keep bending over backward and keep doing things for me is it that it's kind of publicly unpopular for women to call that out because it seems like they're being ungrateful what do you what do you think it is well because I'm not in a woman's head I I I I can't and and because I'm not on social media I also but I I do know what you're talking talking about of course there are memes that that that that run and I I do you know because I get a Google uh notice every time nice guy you know pops up somewhere I I do see when it does pop up it usually pops up in right-wing Republican writing um most often but when women do write their blog articles about nice guys it is most often how nice guys aren't nice how they used basically the cover contracts of oh I'm going to listen to you talk about your problems I'm going to pay your car payment this month I'm G to pretend like I care about you and then when they you know asked the woman out or want her to have sex it goes no I never thought of you that way you're a friend you know and and then the guy of course that all that resentfulness that passive aggressive the rage comes out and so you know that Meme does show up but but it still ends up being toxic masculinity he here is my thought and it sounds like you've looked a lot at this and you might even have a better perspective than me my thought is that you know I grew up during whatever the wave of the angry feminism was in the 60s and 70s I don't know if that's first wave second wave but you know every man's a rapist and erection is a sign of aggression and you know that already bought in my mother you know my mother's generation with the first I think true feminist she raised my my sister to not need a man raised her boys to be different from their father you know that was kind of the beginning of of that movement and um so from that I grew up I don't be like those bad men the women are complaining about so so kind of the toxic masculinity me has been around for a while it just didn't have social media and now mainstream media mainstream I I can't even listen to like NPR anymore because it's kind of like it's just gone so much to like let's just run fluff articles you know fluff stories and stuff like that agreed um I think there had to be a pendulum swing you know most of that's directed at patriarchy you know now you just say patriarchy and like we all understand exactly what that means this evil right but but patriarchy was also provide and protect you know there was also positives a part of it and was there an ownership mentality yeah did that lead to colonialism and you know abuses towards women and children yeah uh racism yeah so yeah all of that well you know when we make a social change we tend to throw the baby out with the bath water so yeah let's just rail against this big idea of patriarchy toxic masculinity you know you know mansplaining man spreading everything that men do is bad kind of stuff I I think maybe it had to go to an extreme and and I think most social sociologists that look at big shifts in society say when you have an oppressed people um down dra it almost has to become like a revolution it has to be at the extremes it doesn't needs to be a correction yeah it's not like a Gandhi that just you know let's let's subtly create the shift um so I think there has to be that overcorrection yeah and and you know so we went through the hashtag me too where you know men were you know you know accused tried you know prosecuted and you know in the media lost jobs lost status purely because some woman said oh I want to join the me too crowd you know and yeah there was a lot of abuses that were being addressed should they been addressed through social media I don't know if that was you know the most uh Democratic way to do it but it's how it got done and then you know yeah if you you know publish something that gets a lot of likes and a lot of follows and yeah other people are going to publish it so yeah it went to the the incentives aligned to make it happen of course they do and social media is all about algorithms and you know the more something shows up the more you see of it uh that's why I don't one of the reasons I don't like social media um but I actually think that we're actually making an adjustment you know I I I saw articles yeah a couple years ago likening anything that had to do with men's work to like the oh there goes the balloons Jesus Christ you said it wasn't gonna Happ I didn't think it was going to work how have you managed to make balloons come up on the scen I promis I promise magic stop doing it I I wish I yeah I can't quit moving my hands now the thumb will probably go up maybe maybe confetti all right all right okay so even just a couple years ago I saw articles about linking the January 6th you know riots you know in Washington DC to anything having to do with men's work like complaining that that all came out of the men's movement and I'm going and this was in main this Washington Post ran an article like that right so it's mainstream media I think actually that I think maybe we've reached that that far extreme and I think maybe it's starting to where all of a sudden that's losing its interest is it seems to you know oh okay there's another meme about toxic masculinity there's another meme about Andrew Tate there's another you know blah blah blah and people do boor and now maybe in this because I'm in the middle of men's work it's what I've done for years and I'm I'm in you know a men's program myself I built a men's program I believe in it I I really do think we're moving to a better space that as men become more conscious um of of the things that I think you know that I teach that are valuable um you know being honest being transparent making their needs of priority surrounding themselves with people on help get their needs met living with purpose living with passion you know being generous making the world a better place being openhearted being loving you know quality good qualities that I think is changing the world is Shifting the dynamic women I think will begin to go that that's actually really attractive that's sexy that's better I like that and um and I think there'll still be a few ones hanging on to but I let's all still stay mad at men let's you know still and after a while you know one of the things that really was a big shock to me I was probably in my 40s when I was I was talking to you know a feminist and I mentioned somebody who identified as a feminist a woman maybe on an airplane and and I said well here's the feminism I grew up with And she said Oh you mean that every man's a rapist you you you like believed all that I go well it sure was a he goes that was just a few angry pissed off women that got a lot of attention I go that's all it was not all women felt that way she goes no and they still don't I go that's actually good to know then maybe all that noise that you know gets a lot of likes and follows maybe that doesn't represent the even the majority of women there was a really wonderful term that I heard last year called the tyranny of the minority and it happens yeah I think that that explains it so another way of putting it is the slowest dumb [ __ ] on the freeway is going to control how fast everybody can go very good yes yes we're controlled by the extremes and the idiots um it's interesting to think about why that might be the case I I think that you've probably you're probably not far wrong that it's still so popular to fit men into the oppressive tyrannical patriarchal overbearing dominating controlling role that if women were to if if a woman was to Post online something which she's more more honest perhaps which would be um I keep going out for men who are overly pliable and because they're so pliable I'm concerned that they're not being honest with me what does that sound like well it sounds like a call for men to be less pliable which is not far away from men to be more aggressive more controlling more writing a book that's called No More Mr Nice Guy why would someone write a book teaching men to be not nice we do we do live in a black and white world and again media social media loves the black and white it doesn't like Nuance subtlety that's the dangerous the real n-word of 2024 is Nuance that's the real one that you shouldn't be saying all right so getting into getting into relationships which are obviously I think Ground Zero for a lot of this stuff you know you can kind of hide things away from yourself when it's on your own and you're in and out of work and all the rest of it not everybody is emotionally connected with the work and not everybody's emotionally connected with how organized their source cupb is relationships real Ground Zero what do nice guys not understand about how female attraction works well most of us are believing what our mothers told us you know uh if they told us anything would just be nice to girl that's what my mother said be a gentleman okay makes sense you know be a gentleman and I am uh I'm a gentleman but a woman taught me this one uh I always open the door for women I tell them wait for me I'll open your door now if you really break it down that's me being dominant you know I tell them what to do wait for me I'm gonna open your door and of the of the several hundred women who I've told to do wait for me I'll open your door only one has pushed back against it and she pushed back for a while then all of a sudden she quit and kind of decided she actually really liked uh actually what she did as she jumped my bones in a public place and a very I said I don't we need to take this somewhere else after the while she' been pushing back against my dominance so for there to be ATT traction there has to be a polarity and polarity involves dominance and submission I know those are evil terrible words you know uh because we think about dominant man you know making women be submissive you're you're in a safe space here I'm not I'm not sweating it uh but yeah it is all it is going out on the internet which is fine you know and what's happened is the polarity is just switched where the females have become dominant the dominant players and the guys have become the the submissive players and then the the women go how come I can't find a guy that turns me on and the guys you're going how come I can't seem to turn women on well it's it's is revers the polarity you you can't have polarity that's attraction without dominance and submission and the more subtle it is the more subtle the attraction is the more blatant it is tends to be the more intense the attraction is we've probably all experienced that in one way or another and I tell people you can't have sex without dominance and submission otherwise there two bodies lying next to each other waiting for something to happen you know you got yeah yeah yeah fight you gotta have a top and bottom you gotta have a pitcher and catcher right there's got to be a polarity now the beauty is that polarity can you can flip it around you know back and forth and I think in very conscious relationships that that happens beautifully my my wife's very strong she grew up eight out of 10 kids in poverty in guadalahara Mexico alcoholic father got beat on by family members beat on by neighbors you know abused by family members abused by priests you know she she's been through you know she goes to the gym two hours a day she can out squat me easily she's done my thigh I I don't I don't piss her off um you know she can get [ __ ] done I grew up in a middle class whitebred neighborhood of Seattle Washington surrounded by Boeing engineer families you know just you know I I never had to fight for anything okay so she's tough but she doesn't she's always told me I love it when you tell me no she goes I she goes I I don't want to be in charge I don't want you to always ask me what what you know what do you want to do she she likes it when I make we'll walk into a restaurant and you know they'll here in Mexico and they'll say they they'll say should I they'll ask her should I get the waiter say should I give him a menu in English she goes no he lives in Mexico give them one in Spanish and I'll say yeah give give my wife and kids the menu in English and then they hand her a menu and she goes no he's my boss he'll order for me and they always laugh about that and I say yeah I get to be the boss when she says I can you know we got the whole the whole shtick down but the truth is she is strong she's powerful she can get [ __ ] done she can kick ass but she doesn't want to be in that mode all the time she wants to to be led she wants to submit she wants to open she wants to be done to in in Blissful kinds of ways well that's my job right so and even though I'm kind of more that I'm I go along to get along I you know I'm yeah this or that either one's okay with me I'm kind of more that way she doesn't like it when I'm that way so for her she's happy it's when I will play the default lead the default decision maker but she likes it best when I said here's what I was thinking what do you think you know I don't just say what do you think you know what do you want I'll say you know I was thinking a white with a little bit of tent of gray in it what do you think you know she wants me to to to lead that and then she'll feel the polarity and then she'll tell me what she thinks or wants and then you say you decide okay let's go let's go let's go pick out the paint um am I being abusive to her by being dominant no I've heard so many women tell me when the guy leaves it all up to them too compliant the women feel burdened by that most are in their masculine dominant role all day long in their work in their career raising children even mothering is a masculine dominant state to be in you're taking care of kids needs that's not feminine you don't them want to have to take care of your partner after that yeah then then when the guy says oh I don't guess you want to have sex tonight would you or what do you want for and it's is one more thing that they got to check off their to-do list yeah they don't want that now am I making a generalization yeah is it fluid yeah is it nuanced yeah is it okay the guys's always got to be the dominant woman's but no that's not what I'm saying but for for men when I start talking about them consciously setting the tone in leading in relationship when I say that to a nice guy the response he usually he he'll ponder it and go okay Dr Glover what I hear you say when you say take control I go no no you did not hear me S say the word take control I did not say it I don't believe in it I'm talking about you lead you set the tone you state what you want where you want to go what you want eat and and and give her a chance to follow like on the Dance Floor she can't follow where you don't lead give her that and then be open to a discussion be open to her taking the you know setting the tone and leading but it's not about but guys nice guys will say well you know when you said take control no is more nuanced than that but again so that that that's my job is helping guys apply the the Nuance that that word of 2024 what is the role of emotional tension oh you've done some research um yeah that's a cute little wink of the I that just just flirting with you I'm just try I'm just trying to flirt with you yeah I know the girls like it probably the boys do too I I I live in a very gay community so you know I know how it RS um okay so the role of emotional tension there we go we just had emotional tension going on right there yep I'm gonna I'm I'm going to make a generalization that doesn't apply to everybody but it does seem to apply to a lot and this the generalized statement is is that in general for women to experience attraction say towards a man arousal and to stay attached to that man over time she has to experience some kind of emotional tension she's got to feel something the butterflies the this the that the drama the does he love me doesn't love me and we men can kind of understand that a little bit we kind of like the tension we feel of go oh she she looks nice you know like her boobs whatever you know that creates ATT tension for us but in general men don't like emotional tension especially in a relationship if you even think about you know our sporting events where we too get our attention they have clocks on them you know we know it's going to end at this time that's why baseball's fallen out of favor that's why they put a clock on baseball they put the they put the pitch clock last year yeah you know problem how many times you can throw it first you know because oh we gotta have it on a clock you know so um so men's tension is on the clock oh yeah I I I I know this you know this this adventure flick I'm watching in the hero this is happening I know he's gonna get out of it and it's gonna be done in 35 minutes you know it's done we're done shoot go home kick back into nothingness right the feminine never gets tired of tension the feminine if it if it isn't feeling tension is board it will create tension and so that's what's hard for men to understand you know we think being nice to women will make them be attracted to us but nice creates absolutely no attention no tension really for anybody men or women but we think well that's what Mom told me to do go be go go be nice to them it's what that's what I in junior high all the women were complaining about those jerks who created attention for them and so I listened to her complain about the jerk and she kept going back to the jerk even after you know you know I'm such a nice guy so in general women need that emotional tension watch it they create it within themselves um and and we guys if we have any kind of tension between us we'll just have it out maybe we'll punch each other and then we'll be done we'll go have a beer it's all good you know uh we don't need to keep going back into that tension state to have a bond to have a connection well we'll go do something together we may go compete we may go bring our aame and leave it all on the field but then we walk off arm in arm you know so so it's just the the the the difference between that masculine and feminine so the hardest part for men to understand is that the women need that attention so even when I say wait for me I'll open your door and now I create a little bit of dominance and she waits for me that's tension all right it's just a little bit it's a little subtle you know even like you know say hey put the menu down I'll order for us tonight there's tension in that not being nice it's actually creating some what's he going to order for is he going to pick something I like do I trust him is it going to be an adventure you know I I tell guys and you and you know guys will think is game play and it kind of can look like that and but the the the real thing is actually just is how do we get more conscious so I'll tell a guy for example you know if a woman sends you a message text message or calls you and if you reply right away or you pick up the phone and answer how much tension will the woman experience through that well well none we've relieved it soon as we answered the phone her tension went away but what if you didn't answer it what if you called her back in 30 seconds 45 seconds an hour and she goes where were you why didn't you answer and what if you didn't give her an answer to that and she's going why didn't he answer what was he doing now here's the thing because as guys tend if we do have emotional tension we like what I call positive emotional tension you know it it it feels good to us where have for the for women they don't care is it positive emotional tension is it NE is it pet or is it net negative emotional tension they don't care emotional tension is emotional tension and so you know it means you know them starting a fight you know them doing something know they know's going to piss us off it's kind of like they don't care they got our attention and and that's all that mattered they got our attention and there's tension and even the thing of guys like listening to women talk about their problems I tell guys there's a an inverse negative relationship between the amount of time man spends listening to a woman talk about her problems and the likelihood he's going to get laid what you mean it means that if you sit and listen to talk about her problems you've actually relieved all of her tension tension flowed completely out of because you know she talked she talked she talk all all the tension came away and what I tell guys is then you end up looking like uh her girlfriend with a penis and odds are she doesn't want to have sex with her girlfriend so anything we do to relieve their tension actually works against us and robs them kind of like we talked about earlier are we going to rob them of the joy of doing for us well are we going to rob them of the emotional tension that they have to have to feel to feel something to to want to engage you had this fantastic example of how emotional tension is enjoyed differently by men and women by the story arcs of romantic comedies and how men and women uh experience experience that can you explain that well you mean like you know you you take your woman to watch Titanic and she Titanic you know she's already seen it eight times and she walks away with her panties wet thinking how come I can't have that and the guy the guy's checking his watch checking his phone is Sports Center on yet how do I get out of here I I thought what was particularly interesting was you you explaining and it really sort of hit home to me that uh if you're a man who's watching a romantic comedy you see um regul at the beginning everything is is fine then you see disregulation something happens and everything goes up in the air then you see regulation again on like middle movie regulation where the the couple first starts to get together and you're like oh well I mean that's it like let's go home the movies done yes done whereas what the woman then wants is this protracted oh but the ex-girlfriend's back in the picture but oh my God he hasn't got his right visa and he's going to be deported how are they going to keep the relationship going and it's just protracted and raed and protracted and protracted and then I don't I don't know what it's like to be a woman at the end of a romcom but it may be unsatisfying for there to be a conclusion it's like what could we just let's roll it for another three hours let's just continue to extend this T that's maybe where where Bollywood figured it out let's just do the wedding scene everybody's dancing to a real upbeat song we know it's over but now they'll they'll do a part two of it right um and you know women I've been in relationship with learned don't take me to a romantic comedy I'm sitting there going that is so [ __ ] unrealistic that doesn't happen in the real world how come every guy has a job he doesn't actually have to go to how come every woman's a fashion editor in every one of these yeah I know he loves dogs but he lives in this New York Loft and makes cans that's how he supports himself come on that's not real yes yeah you don't want to go to romantic comedy with me because I live in the world of could that really be real could that really happen do people really do that uh uh no you know that's not how the real world works but it creates emotional tension and so that's really what it is all about it's not about reality the masculine wants to go resolve all the emotional tension to get us back into reality so yeah I it's it's really hard for me to watch a romantic comment and just twiddle my thumbs and just not not say anything oh it's was excruciating so thinking about this Dynamic that we have this emotional tension this am amount of of of dominance and and uh Direction uh and and suggestion that comes from the man um there will be women listening and out there who enjoy they're writing a Blog article about us right now it's fine it's fine add it to the list but there will be women listening who are maybe a little conflicted or there will be men who imagine that the woman might be conflicted because you say well she wants she comes home she's had a difficult day at the work because Kelly that [ __ ] in the cubicle next door has done that thing again that pisses her off and the woman wants to be able to vent she also wants her man to listen to her and it's this odd duality of not knowing what's best for us and of the things that we want not always being in our best interests right and you quoted the best onion article which is woman turns man into a partner she doesn't want to be with i i i that that that the article the headline alone is is enough right you know and and again this is this is the dance of relationship wouldn't it be great if you know we could just say guys just do it this way every woman's gonna like it no it doesn't work that way and but what what you said was really true is that yeah for example you know the woman in your life's been in her masculine all day doing at work putting up with [ __ ] managers [ __ ] customer [ __ ] clients [ __ ] co-workers and now you know she comes home there one more [ __ ] in the house putting demands on her so for example um the woman that folded my clothes that I mentioned again I met her at the mall as she sold me shoes and and after we started dating um one of the things where we really clicked is she liked baseball I like baseball Rangers Fan I could have been part of a threesim it would have been great there we go you go flirting again but but but you you lost to me as soon as you said Texas Rangers you know those us were the World Series championship in the last year yeah you're you're the Wii you're the Homer yeah we we won the World Series let me see the ring man show show me the ring okay so um she liked baseball so you know she'd get off work four or five o'clock in the afternoon I'd already have a bar stool staked out at the roof Chris that was right next to you know where she worked couple of baseball games are already on the screen at the bar they have this great half price hamburger during happy hour she'd come in and she would just start you know I'd already have the wine ordered sitting there you know the you know the appetizers that come and she's like this about her day like that she's been in her masking all day I would take out my phone set it at five minutes and say you have my undivided attention for five minutes put the phone on the bar I would give her eye contact I would face her I would listen undivided attention she would run out of steam before five minutes was up because she's going I can sit here complain but there's a baseball game on there's a glass of wine sitting here what do I prefer before I now if I didn't put her on the clock at five minutes it was a game it was me being dominant but in a loving playful if I didn't put her on the clock she might be crabby all night long and she would not enjoy herself because one of the things I found is that for somebody who identifies as feminine to being their masculine all day are often not good at getting themselves out of that mask and all I gotta go home and wash dishes and get the laundry dunked there's things we got to do before I got to get up and go to work tomorrow oh sit down have a glass of wine tell me about your let me rub your feet I'm a big fan of of in a sense leading her back into her feminine out of that masculine rigid get [ __ ] done kind of state of mind and now all of a sudden she begins opening and she'll tell me your attention I might even say a woman taught me this I'll say you know what I want to hear about your day but give me the guy version you know and I've never had a woman ask me what does that mean I'll say you you you want me to be your guy right yeah yeah all right then I need the guy version when you tell me about the day about how Kelly in the cubicle next to her you know well and I know why she does it because she just insecure and she's always wanting attention and she always takes it out of me dear I love you give me the guy ver Kelly pissed me off today great now I understand why you had a bad day so you know get playful with it get playful with it there's definitely one of the common threads that I'm noticing through a lot of the Dynamics is a degree of playfulness and it's my nature so it is what I bring and you know it it's helping it's helping to it's helping to relieve the tension relieve the tension it's helping to relieve the seriousness of everything that it it gives more play it gives like in the engineering term it gives more room within the system for things to breathe you make a suggestion but it's not it's not done in too rigid of a fashion there's there's there's movement in there and it's done it's evident the reason that you're doing it and it's not in a mocking way it's not in a passive aggressive way it's not in a condescending or patronizing way but the reason that this I think works is it shows Hey look like we're here to enjoy our time together we're you're here to enjoy we're here to enjoy this and whether it's someone's had something good happen someone's had something bad happened someone's sad someone's mad someone's whatever the appropriate amount of playfulness I can struggle to think of really many situations in which it doesn't make it better yeah I I and that doesn't mean getting silly and everything's a joke because again guys will kind of like Oh you mean make a joke about it and go and again teaching men to to be light-hearted that that that that can be a pretty daunting task yeah um now what's funny though if you get men with men and and let them just kind of begin to let their hair down guys get silly with each other and you know and but we're I think we're afraid of showing that to women oh yeah I won't I won't appear manly I won't be you know there's a degree of there's a degree of competence I think uh I certainly notic this do you know who Charlie hoopet is from Charisma on command he's got a very big Charisma Channel on YouTube a really really great guy very embodied ton of self-work ton of men's work um and he uh helps mostly men but also women become more charismatic so he he he's he's learned the principles of of confidence and Charisma and um one of the best tools that he teaches is when people ask a question the best answer isn't always the right one and you know he uses this example of um how to overcome your discomfort around trying to be funny and he says if you walk out of the house and you're with people you walk out of a bar or whatever and the weather is one extreme of either hot or cold make a joke about it being the opposite yeah and he was like it's the shittest joke it is the worst it's a pure dad joke but he said it'll get a chuckle out of people if you walk outside and it's freezing hot and you go dude wish I'd brought some shorts today this is great um like people have a little bit of a a chuckle about but it really really showed me and I have a friend George who's been on the show a lot he a lot of the time if you're playing kind of like a game of tennis so you're playing a game of tennis which involves a linear conversation here is a question there is an answer here is a question there is an answer here's another answer here's another question and you play this back and forth he regularly hits the ball sideways so he'll call back to a thing that happened a couple of weeks ago or he'll say oh you know I bet that such and such a famous person from the media would have done that or whatever like he'll rip the conversation out like orthogonally from where it is and there's play in that he's not answering the question because he he has the comfort in himself to not need to get validation by being I am the person that always knows the answer I am the person that is always able to give the the correct conclusion that draws the line that puts the full stop and dots the eyes and crosses the teas I don't need to be that person and it's such a breath of fresh air because you're having this conversation and and you're like I'm excited that I don't know what's gonna and it f it engenders that in you as well but there's definitely like good boy energy and nice guy energy in I will answer the question properly I will ensure that this you somebody has asked something of me and deliver it I shall and that removes the playfulness yeah you know and and when I work with guys around this when again when I when I learned to date in my 40s and 50s I you know I was never good with women and if I got one I kept them way too long and I started getting successful you know with with dating and getting laid and guys said Robert teach us I'm I'm not a dating Guru but that what you're talking about is that again for most of the men I worked with they get so afraid I'm gonna do something wrong I'm gonna make a mistake I'm gonna piss her off I I'll blow it and then then it's irreparable and I'd say you know just tell her don't you know if you have the impulse to touch her touch her if you have the impulse to tease her tease her if you have the impulse to tell her come on let's go do this don't hold back it's crazy as it sounds I tell guys blurt and act on impulse you think that's a recipe for disaster but the truth is it lets them be themselves because their authentic self comes out and you know I've had so many experiences you know around what if I just blurted acted on impulse you know I remember one woman I dated on the second date we're going to go go for a walk and she said well let me go use the restroom in a a restaurant and she went to the restroom came back and I so I'm going to go use the restroom I said by the way enjoyed watching you walk away from me and as soon as I said it I thought oh [ __ ] I probably blew it you know after we broke up we saved friends and she said months later said you remember when you said that to me said yeah I thought I blew it he goes oh no I I loved it well I it I just blurted it right I didn't hold it back I remember another woman ear early first date were walk and she said something about her her sister sister-in-law they're they're having a shoe party you know women get together and look at shoes buy sounds like the lamest thing a tupperware I can think of a shoe party lamest party in history but okay and so I blurted with that thinking oh shoe shopping is women's porn she turned and looked at me she goes you get it you understand you know and and and so guys will say well I'm not funny you know I'm not I'm not you know I can't I'm not talking about telling jokes I'm talking about whatever that thing that came to the tip of your brain but you held it back yeah because you're afraid it might be the wrong thing to say the wrong thing to do as soon as you held it back you killed the tension the putting it out there and sometimes you crash and burn you know there's the sweat flops you got oh man that didn't get one laugh you know but you got to take that risk every comedian you know has had plenty of bombs to but man that one landed and and it's not about trying to get it right it's about taking the sensors off and letting that you that maybe just speaks to the obvious out there and people people they'll relate to it or they won't it seems a lot like one of the key tactics for rehabilitating a nice guy is learning to kind of get out of your own way that's a good way to put it because what we've been doing is again go all the way back to where we began this they've been trying to manage their shame I'm I'm bad I'm not good enough I'm GNA be found out I'm GNA die their anxiety oh no somebody will react negatively there would be pain involved a and so that is what's driving the bus is their shame and their anxiety and so who is really in there you know who is the person um one of the things the comments I get from people that that work with me or you know come to my workshops or seminars or or do calls with me they'll say Robert I appreciate how how authentic you are and I'll go nobody would have accused me of that 30 years ago nobody would have said Robert I love how real you are how authentic you are how you just share yourself how how you share your mistakes your fuckups I didn't and and I couldn't attract a woman to save my life you know back back in those days I I I kind of could but I I didn't know that what I was what I did that my attract a woman but I wasn't real I wasn't authentic I was holding my finger up checking the wind I was a chameleon you know what's what's going to get me the most laughs or what's going to get me you know what What will what will kind of go over well but not too well that you know now I'm not on the spot that I got to follow through and man to just take the sensors off and just blurt act on impulse be you I think is such a powerful Rehabilitation and since most nice guys their sensors are the prominent with women that's a great place to go practice one of my the same friend I was talking about before Mr orthogonal tennis game George he uh he has this idea called only the irrational Behavior survives what he's talking about what he's talking about is he imagines um being at the funeral of somebody that he knows and he thinks about the conversations that the people are having around the room and they're not having the conversation the washing was always folded and he turned up on time and all the rest of it he uses this example of his mom and he says that his mom hates fighting just really does does not like physical fighting big big problem with it and once his brother was in the car his younger brother was in the car with her they were driving somewhere and she I don't know 50s year old woman normal British woman uh saw two 18yearold boys sort of squaring up to each other and pushing and and trying to fight or whatever on the side of the on the pavement she stops the car in the middle of traffic gets out and runs over and the brother's like Mom what the [ __ ] are you doing like what the two guys twice your size and quadruple your testosterone what the [ __ ] are you do she runs over and she gets in between them physically gets in between them like no fighting no fighting gets back in the car and the brother's like Mom that was insane you could have been hurt you could have been she's like I don't care I don't care I just don't like fighting no one's fighting and he said at her funeral people will say she was the sort of person that would stop the car in the middle of traffic to stop two boys from fighting and it's like that only the irrational Behavior survives is is similar to what you're talking about that there are rough edges to our personality and our Behavior but ultimately that is our personality and behavior like if your goal your goal should not be as a person on this planet to smooth out any of the things that make you anything into this sort of vanilla amorphous blob that kind of like just Glides through it's like no you have things that you want to say and actions that you want to take and changes that you want to make and just the faith to be able to do that unencumbered is that's what life is yeah and and and it it takes support it takes practice um yeah you talking No More Mr Nice Guy about nice guys being Teflon men no stick you know nothing I don't want anything to stick to me but we do connect as you said around our rough edges you know what we remember about people might not even be always a thing it it might even bugged us or got on our nerves when they did it when we're around them but it is also the thing we miss I mean you know Nala the pitbull's back at my my door again I've got french glass doors so I can see her outside my office yeah you know when she barks during you know I'm on an interview a podcast it really bugs me but you know if I didn't have her and I'd notice oh I miss her bark you know I love when go crazy and let me know that somebody was out front our our handyman the the water guys deliver our they call my dog's name because they know she'll bark differently when she's had her name called and then well and I would miss that if it if it ever went I'd go what's wrong with Nala how come she doesn't bark at people outside anymore yeah it's it's rough edges B you know all that smooth get it right no yeah that's boring why is your first sexual experience so important you talking about mine the FLIR come on even that's too far for me um yeah first sexual experience why is it very formative okay you know that that that's a good question but it's also a difficult one to answer because our our first sexual experience is probably conception you know I'd say birth we're born sexual we're the the essence of Who We Are is sexuality every living thing is built to reproduce after its own so our sexuality is the essence of who we are we kind of live culturally thinking well you know children don't become sexual until you know that particular age whatever that might be but the truth is you know little boys little girls discover their body parts that are very young age and oh there's pleasure before you you know they understand the words of parents tell them stop doing that you know they're they're they're they're they're finding the pleasure in their own body parts and the essence of our psyche is is is are are is sexuality you know if so many great teachers you know all the way from from Freud to David data to Osho to David snar people at least I value talk about the the most profound way into who we are young is to our sexuality because it is the essence of who we are so to bring that back to answering your question I will often ask people like in a workshop you know again I primarily work with men these days well I 100% work with men these days I'll ask them what was your earliest sexual memory and it doesn't matter what it was first time you notice you had an erection first kiss first wet dream first I'll show you mine you show me yours first whatever uh and it can vary you every but I say what is your first memory and then I'll say get it get clear in your mind what was it and then I'll ask them did it occur in the open could you go tell your folks about it could it be celebrated did your parents say that's amazing Lo get let's go get pizza that's a you know it's a developmental milestone um or was it hidden was it secretive was it guilt-ridden was it shame based uh even worse did it feel good but you felt bad about it feeling good right so for about 99.9% of the people on the planet our earliest sexual experience was wrapped in shame in in Hidden Darkness guilt I'm bad I can't let anybody find out so our sexuality gets cross-wired with those features it's bad it's evil hide it repress it don't let it out and then that takes you know as many different forms as there are people in terms of how that manifests from from there so then we get to be adolescents and adults and can't figure out why sex is so messy so difficult so challenging so you know how come it isn't work how come how come it's not easy yeah people who think that they have a a low sex drive might actually just be psychologically scarred from the way that they perceived it that's very possible I and I've often said you know I I we'll get I didn't discover I didn't know I could actually masturbate myself to ejaculation until I was a freshman in college that's pretty late compared to to most and and you know I was kind of a late bloomer in a lot of ways around sexuality and I was just well that's just me but yeah it's very likely Me growing up in a fundamental Christian Church where I heard messages really early that if you lust after a woman's breast you go to all you go to hell for all eternity you know where you know my mom taught me to be not be like my dad where you know I listen to the women that he's a jerk he only wants one thing you know yeah there might have been some scarring that went into you know I'm trying to work out you know it's better to not have a sex drive oh my penis betrayed me again by getting a wrecked you know what stop doing that you know you know I'm trying to work out from a first sexual experience perspective my first the first time I had sex the girl who I worked with at the local hotel where I was the room service boy do you know what a uh [ __ ] what was it a a VW Lup is L Lup it's like the SI it's smaller than a fat 500 and it was three door and it was in a uh like an industrial estate halfway between did you have sex in the Lup I had I I if you think that having sex for the first time is difficult having sex for the first time in a car that's like half the size of a jumper just turns the turns the difficulty level up to 11 um but yeah I maybe maybe that's I don't know what that means we were next to a like a mercedesbenz mechanics maybe that's why I love F1 so much I'm not sure I keep getting an erection whenever I see Louis Hamilton I'm not sure uh we we could really SP my my my first attempt was in a a Chevy Vega you know probably slightly bigger slightly bigger the next time I tried it it was on a parked school bus I got smart right yeah very nice very good well I mean the school bus but um yeah it's it's it's very interesting to think about how we sort of internalized these stories and hey I had uh do you know who Dr Paul Conti is is that was Stanford I've heard that name I couldn't tell you who he is but I have heard the name so he did a four-part series with Andrew huberman last year I've heard that name too yes yes everybody says that name all the time he's fantastic they're both fantastic and um Paul does uh evidence-based unconscious work trauma uh and such from a very medical standpoint and um he was talking to me he gave me this really lovely frame very interesting about how formative experiences in our past can reshape the way that we see the entirety of that world but importantly they reshape our memory of what it was like before that as well so for us to say something like like uh I get in a car accident when I'm 25 and uh then you get travel anxiety which causes you to not enjoy driving or to feel anxious when you're driving and then at 35 you tell yourself I've never liked driving you're like no until the age of 25 you loved it do you not remember you did that thing it's like no no no no I was anxious the whole time and this this ability that like the fallibility and the malleability of our own memory and our sense of self and our understanding of ourselves um the fact that for sufficiently formative experience expences can like manipulate those and mold them in a different way I just thought was so it's fascinating but kind of brutal as well well and maybe this is the same another way of explaining the same thing every time we recall a memory we fundamentally change the memory because every time we recall it we're now in a different emotional state a different position different surroundings we accurate memory does not exist right what what even even as we think we're remembering our earliest sexual experience you know if there was actually a camera there filming it we might find out it was completely totally different surrounding wise than we thought so every time we recall a memory we're altering it so our memories keep changing over a lifetime so um but what but what happens that that trauma we're talking about and that what I call the cross wirring that's happening at an emotional level and so it doesn't matter even if our memory is accurate in terms of you know digitally accurate what what matters is emotionally how we move forward with it and so now if you know we've been a sexual creature since birth and all of a sudden something happens that sex is hidden well I better keep it hidden from from here on out and we don't make that as a conscious decision it's just an emotional road map that we start following it's very very interesting okay so we identified this yeah and people are sitting listening to you and I talking very openly about sexual experiences and they're going you're not supposed to do that you're not supposed to talk openly about those things because they're going on their emotional wiring of how you're supposed to to you know be about sex yeah well look the VW Lop opens all sorts of doors um three of them exactly precisely correct unless you can clamber out the back honestly dude I I and I remember how not far the passenger seat went back as well I just thought this is [ __ ] and you got to do it in the passenger seat because with the steering wheel but you guys have the steering wheel on the wrong side of the car well speak for yourself look we've gone through this Litany of problems right this big big big big list and we don't have enough time to prescribe the Panacea for all of the nice guys listening given the fact that you've done so many seminars coaching sessions working with people what have you found if you were to give the biggest movers of um Rehabilitation for nice guys um I don't think I've ever used that exact word for it what what what are the uh the practices what are the places that they should focus on in order to start to embody themselves more honestly okay yeah be be their authentic selves exactly I I'll just walk you through what I did number one I tell people find safe people don't try to do this on your own you didn't become a nice guy in Social isol isolation don't try to get over it in Social isolation we have to say have safe people to start releasing our shame to tell people I've got this story about myself and people go that's not bad that's not terrible at all you're that's normal what you're describing so we need safe people to support us release our shame perhaps Mentor us encourage us help us face our fears so I tell nice guys go find a coach therapist men's group I love men's groups did a big chunk of my own personal re rehabilitation in in men's groups uh I was leading five men's groups a week when I was in private practice up in Seattle um I just I'm a Believer so fine men's group don't try to do this alone how do you so just to interject that how do you know if it's a good men's group or a bad men's group that that's a good question and it is somewhat subjective because something a group you love might not work for me um when I started looking for something about that existed at that time was the uh the Robert blly mythal poetic go out in the woods be the drum have the Talking Stick and say ho I did that I ended up in a 12-step program is where I started not wasn't by choice it just where I landed um I I got lucky I I landed in I was in a men's group led by a woman around sexual shame who liked men and so that was good for me I tried some other men's groups that I I just never connected or resonated with with a core piece I would recommend whether you're looking for a coach a therapist a men's group is find somebody who leads it who's actually done their own work you mentioned embodiment quite a bit somebody who's actually gone out worked on their own stuff you know I I became uh a therapist I I got my PhD in marriage and family therapy at 29 years old started you know a few years later started doing you know trying to do real therapy I never been to therapy and you know it wasn't until I got into therapy in men's groups and started working on my own toxic shame and my own anxieties and my own patterns that I could actually really help people so you know um it doesn't hurt to check out you know ask the person what's your journey you know where where have you worked on yourself and then just see do you connect with them that's that's usually a good place do you connect so go go find a coach therapist men's group 12 group something where you get to go start revealing you releasing toxic shame start being honest nice guys think they're honest were anything but honest I remember pretty early in my process I I realized almost everything I told my then wife was whatever won't rock the boat so I I told her I'm gonna work in being honest whenever I catch myself making up a story to tell you I'm going to come tell you I was going to lie to you here's the lie I was going to tell you here's the whole truth truth so I started doing that and actually I used to tell her her middle name ought to be overreact because that's what she did and every the funny thing was when I actually just started telling her the truth about [ __ ] she'd go okay thanks for telling me that I'm glad you didn't lie to me and you know whoa that's different you know when I was trying to get her not to overreact she did when I just told her the truth yeah okay don't lie to me that was it so work on being honest and again we need safe people usually to do that uh work on making your needs a priority start asking yourself what do I want what's important to me you know am I do I do I need to go to the gym do I need to go the dentist uh do I need to take some time to relax uh do I need to rest my eyes do I need to go read a good book do I you know how do I get my needs met and how do I let people help me get my needs met and how do I surround myself with people who want to help me get my needs met uh start working on boundaries that's that's a big one for nice guys is well nobody grows into adulthood knowing how to set boundaries because nobody teaches children how to set boundaries um because in in the real world the big people get to do whatever they want to the little people and because we were all little people we never learned you could say no stop that I'm gon to remove myself now so learn about boundaries I was in my 30s in my second marriage with a PhD before IID ever even heard of boundaries a therapist I went to taught me about them uh so start working on boundaries and then I just I think the one other piece I'll throw out there that I think just so fundamental especially for guys for nice guys go connect with men go build a tribe of men I've had to do that a few times in my life about seven years ago when I got married down here in Mexico um not yet fluent Spanish my wife only speaks Spanish and I'm living at here working at home I I had no guys in my life and I went seeking and found a men's program and joined it and now if you looked at my text messaging my calendar my email I'm on Zoom I'm messaging with buddies all the fraking time and it just it makes everything about my world better I'm I'm more on point with with my work my relationship improved I'm in Better Health I'm happier so build a connection with man so there there's about five things that are a pretty good start Dr Robert Glover ladies and gentlemen Robert I adore your work I think it's very much needed it's so fascinating that it's been around for quite a while you know and and yet this single thread of guys being overly pliable of resenting despite the fact that they're playing the game correctly they think that they're doing all the rest of it is uh it's so fascinating and I I've today's been phenomenal where should people go they want to keep up to date with your work you've got TR the internet yeah drg glover.com you know good place to start out uh it's we're in the process of rebuilding it but you you can go find good stuff uh integration nation.net my new men's program uh my co-author said be sure and mention the big stick this uh go find the big stick Tony endelman is a certified coach I I I asked him a few years ago Tony what do you think about digging into everything I've ever created and trying to put it in one book and he goes yeah I'm up for that I go okay and he did did a beautiful job so um drg glover.com integration nation.net big stick hell yeah Robert I appreciate you thank you very much for Chris this was a blast thank you so much fun if you enjoyed that episode then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks and don't forget to subscribe