How marketing leaders are delivering social impact

Finding that sweet spot between what it is your company does, your organization does, and how can you leverage that to have positive impact in the world, and then look for that sweet spot, those opportunities where those things coincide, where you can play that in life light and self-interest card that allows you to do something really positive and great for your business at the same time as having a positive impact in society. And don't try and make it something random and left field that is nothing to do with what you do, because it won't wash. Make it something that's really pertinent to to the impact that your product service offerings have out there in the world. [music] >> [music] >> Hello everybody, and welcome to the CIM Marketing Podcast. And you know, today we're going to be looking at applying marketing in new way into a new sphere. Bit of a departure for the show, but an exciting one. We're going to be looking about how we can use marketing activity to help us solve systemic social problems, problems with society, uh sociological problems that we face as a country and as a society. And we have got some great guests with us today to discuss this very important and interesting issue. None other than Caroline Taylor OBE. And Caroline has you know, she's really lived the journey going from corporate to the charitable sector. She was actually CMO for IBM's international business operations, but she has now moved squarely into the sphere of social change. She is chair of the board of Oasis Community Learning, which is a multi-academy trust that is responsible for actually 56 primary and secondary schools across the UK. And she's a director and trustee of the Oasis Charitable Trust. She is also a long-standing advocate for human rights and social justice. Previously working as chair of the board of trustees on an organization called Stop the Traffic, which is a pioneering charity working to prevent human trafficking. Caroline, welcome. How are you? >> I'm great, thank you. I'm delighted to be here. >> It's great to have you on the show. Fantastic to have you on the show. We are also joined today by Mr. Jack Lohman. Now, Jack is chief social change officer of the disability charity Sense. Many of you will know the charity, very big charity in the world of disability. Um he's also founder of future skills trainer called Hack Yourself, which some of you will know began life as a book of the same name. And I'm delighted to say he is a course director at CIM. Great to have you on the show. Caroline, before we go too much further, let's do a little bit of a pop profile of each of you. Uh tell us a little bit about yourself. Um I've given you a bit of a billing, but there's quite an incredible CV you've got. Can you tell us a little bit about your background and history? >> Sure. Um okay, well, so um studied life sciences at uni. Um fell into working in fine wine retail as a result of a student job. Um did that for a while, had a couple of kids. Um and was looking at going back to work and sort of through a set of coincidences ended up working uh uh still in marketing, but in the tech industry. And I worked for several smallish software companies um uh and then I got acquired a couple of times, as you do if you work in the software industry. Um and then uh and then the last one I got acquired was by IBM. Uh didn't think I'd stay because they were this huge behemoth and I'd worked in these sort of smallish, much more start-uppy environments and um didn't didn't see how I could possibly fit in there. And then gave it a couple of years and discovered, well, I'm not ever sure I ever totally fit in, but but it was an extraordinary organization with the potential and the ability to do so much and it was from the first moment, hello, a very clearly a purpose-driven organization and I found that super attractive. So, for all the downside of a very large organization with everything that brings in terms of bureaucracy, etc., it was making a real positive impact in the world and had the potential to do even more. So, I thought I'd stick around and see what happens. So, I stuck around and saw what happened and I think more they didn't fire me than I chose to stay, but um it just sort of, yeah, it just sort of worked and played out and got to work with incredible people on amazingly interesting stuff. And yeah, and then this is sort of sideline to that, got involved with Stop the Traffic way back, I possibly nearly 20 years ago, I suppose, now. And then IBM got involved with Stop the Traffic, which is very exciting to have them on board as well. So, they did some amazing work together. And and then as a result of, yeah, Stop the Traffic then got involved with the Oasis and then after I retired in 2020 was asked if I'd be willing to join the board and then become chair of the Oasis Community Learning, which is the the education portion of what Oasis does. Which is a bit daunting cuz, you know, I've been a user of education but never been involved in it beyond that. But it is amazing how you find that your many years in the corporate world and with all the complexities working in a very big organization serve you very well when you come come into that sphere, particularly because a multi-academy trust is, I mean, it's a charity but um, highly regulated by the government. Um, and so you have all of the challenges of the Department of Education, uh, both the civil servants and the politicians. You have Ofsted, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, um, turned out that a lot of my IBM training stood me in very good stead in that in that moment. And then when I'm not doing all of that, I'm, uh, when I retired in 2020, in the midst of the pandemic, um, with quite a limit on what one might do with one's time, um, I took up wildlife photography. So, that's the other thing that sort of, um, fills my days. If anybody ever sees me on, um, uh, Teams or Zoom or whatever, you'll find that, you know, I've walls of, uh, of of my wildlife photos around me. >> And you're being very modest because you sometimes, I should say for the benefit of the audience, you picked up some at some point in that uh, long and, uh, illustrious career, you picked up an OBE. >> Yes, wasn't that peculiar? Um, yes, as it I mean, it is sort of embarrassing, really, isn't it? Because you we all, you know, whenever you whenever you're recognized for a thing, most of us know that there are far more deserving people than you uh, are, but um, nevertheless, uh, it would be rude to say no, thank you. Um, and, um, no, so that was pretty wonderful, um, and, um, uh, I yeah, and it was the citation was peculiar because it was for marketing diversity and the prevention of human trafficking, which is quite the collection of things. Um, I think they couldn't quite make their mind up which one they wanted to stick on it, so they stuck all three. Um, yes, that was very wonderful and, um, and gave and gave me my day at the palace, um, gave, uh, my husband and my daughters their day at the palace, um, and, uh, and I got to meet the queen, which was pretty awesome. >> Uh, fant- fantastic, fantastic. That's that's that's great and amazing and amazing career well lived. Jack, you I mentioned earlier, you're you're slightly unusual in that you're the founder of a company that started with a book, which is the reverse of what normally happens. You know, people normally start a company and then they write a book about, uh, their insights from that company, but for you it went in reverse. It It did. And it actually probably started with more than an an an idea, which was that um you know, the world of work has changed considerably. And with that comes a shift in how you lead teams, how you run high-performing teams. Um and I guess the inquisitive part of me was asking, well, what practically do we do now to run high-performing teams in a post-COVID world? Um and whilst that makes an interesting read, what's the more interesting part is actually in live scenarios with companies learning how they're doing it. And actually, I think I learn more uh running those sessions than I than the wisdom I impart, to be honest. And um I think it's as a general thing for leaders more generally, I think one of the best things you can do to get good at your job is to teach. Because I think it helps you uh define your opinions. It helps you consolidate your your views. It and it helps you understand what you really think is effective. Because you have to give it as a as advice. And that's just that process of of refining your thinking I found really helpful. Um but yeah, that's kind of um a part part work that I do. The other The other part is um I think I've been having an identity crisis recently because I've taken on a job, which is the first job in my career where it doesn't have the word marketing in the job title. And I think um as marketers we we like to you know, associate our job titles with our identity. Uh Although it's I've I've gone through that and I'm on the other side. Um I think there's something quite refreshing actually having a job title like chief social change officer because it talks about the outcome as opposed to having a word in the title that's more the the process or the thing that you're doing. Yeah, it's a whole different energy and uh feeling to it. So, I've I've gone through the identity crisis and I'm embracing this this world of social change. Uh which is now the the the name of the directorate that I lead as as well. Um I'm working on the OVE. Um so if you have any contacts, Caroline, let me know. Um although I did spend I've probably spent the best part of a decade working at Royal Charities, so you'd think that I would have uh a better chance than many at >> You must be on the list, my friend. >> One one day. Um yes, at the Prince's Trust for a number of years. Um So yeah, we're very lucky to work with some really really great non profits and private sector uh work as well. >> Indeed, and we'll dig into a little bit about that idea about how outcomes later. Very interesting point that you made that your your job title is named after its desired outcome rather than the activity that gets us to that outcome, which we'll dig into a little bit later on. Um Caroline, I'll come back to you to start. You People were listening to your potted history. And they were thinking, "Goodness me, this is a This is really is quite an interesting segue this lady's made. You've gone from, you know, one of the world's biggest blue-chip companies in the shape of IBM, international tech major, to running a charitable trust. Um Some people would think these two are such chalk and cheese that there's no natural progression from one to the other. But presumably there must be. And uh if so, what is it? >> Well, it's It's a really It's an interesting question. I mean, I The first thing is obviously once you So you My role is a governance and oversight role. I mean, this chair rather the CEO um for which I'm grateful every single day, I have to say, because being the CEO is way, way harder. Um I I I As I sort of said earlier, I do think that that crazy corporate life has been an amazing preparation. There are so many There are so many moments um uh in in what I do now that reflect I reflect on what I did in the past. So, you know, um in my latter years in IBM I was responsible for all of marketing it across and communications across our um global business. So, China and you know, Australia and and Romania and well, everywhere. Um and and so and that and how and having a deep respect for the individuals who are doing the work in those places and for their regional expertise, not thinking you know best because you've got the fancy job title. Um and and that's really important now. So, we have schools all over the country. The principals and the staff in those schools know their students and they know their the families of their students and they know the context that those um children and young people come from and they know the challenges. And so so and I I have a, you know, um deep deep uh respect for that knowledge and to not to never think that I'm going to know better. So, it it I think what it what I my training IBM trained me to really ask lots of questions and not think I knew the answer. And probably never think I knew the answer. Always assume I don't know the answer and therefore ask question, listen, learn. And and so I so it it's really interesting. So, yes, it's nothing to do with tech. And it's also all about understanding your audience, you know, understanding your stakeholders, let me put it like that. Um it you know, and and you can I mean, I've never bought millions of pounds worth of software or hardware or technology services and yet I needed to be in the midst of decision-making around marketing uh investment and campaigns that were going to target people who did that every day. And so again, you know, I'm I'm never going to walk a mile in their shoes, but but you can learn and you can really learn about your audience and what they care about and why they care about it and what makes them tick and that's that vital for marketing, but it's vital for running an organization that is a service to in our case 34,000 young people. >> Well, yeah, what going to say, we're talking this this show you know, sort of using marketing to drive societal change, you know, to to improve society through marketing activity. Um, you know, we you get a lot of big brands, small brands as well, but certainly big brands sort of trying to portray, trying to sell this idea that they have this quote unquote purpose. Um, you know, every every organization nowadays apparently has to have a purpose or has to at least try to sell a purpose be on profit, I'm sure. IBM is no different. Um, but how does that compare with sort of trying to sell your IBM's customers a purpose with something that you're doing now which has a very obvious purpose or at least it seems to be obvious fairly more obvious to me. >> Yeah, okay. Well, I think it's two big things. The first one is if you're a commercial organization like IBM or any other, people are going to be very skeptical at best and cynical at worst that you're only interested in profit. Okay? Um, and uh, but but the other thing is that you're not really selling in that instance your purpose to the your your purpose is what drives your strategy. So, I would I would say that um, and and so, just to put this in context, um, IBM's a really really old company. So, 15 years ago in 2011, I was the CMO for IBM UK and Ireland and we with all our colleagues around the world were marking the 100th uh, um, anniversary of the foundation of IBM. So, 100 years as a company. Um, and the thing that was interesting is that the core purpose of the organization had not changed in those 100 years. I would suggest it probably still hasn't. Um, but what it did and how it did it changed all the time, you know, and had to change all the time because the world moves on. Um, you know, IBM uh, essentially invented the personal computer, ran a very successful profitable that's the computer business, but eventually moved away from it because it was no longer Well, it was no it would it was it had become such a commodity to all of us that it no longer met IBM's purpose. And their purpose, they would have articulated it 100 plus years ago is making the world work better. But in those days, they made bacon slices and and weighing machines and stuff like that. So, your experience in the in the in the town deli, not that you would have called it that in those days, but um when you were buying your your your bits of ham uh was better as a result of having a really eff- efficient uh slicing machine. Um So, so the purpose didn't really change, but the how they how what they did and how they did it did change. And so, purpose is less about is more about keeping um keeping you focused on on what it is you're trying to achieve out there. And if you if your purpose is just a very flimsy wrapper for making shedloads of money and not much interested in anything else, then everybody eventually will find you out. I mean, you might get away with it for some of the time, but down down the road, you you will trip up and you will fall over. Because people Human beings are pretty good at sniffing out inauthentic stuff. So, um so I think that that's the thing. But, you know, if you're a if you're a charity, a multi-academy trust or, you know, the broader Oasis, which um which uh you know, works uh significantly in much wider community transformation, um and people are much less skeptical about your purpose because why else would you do it except that you really care about it? And then it's more about how effective are you? Are you really able to do this? And how are you doing it, you know? Um if you're a donor or um or a or a corporate organization that might be considering partnering, you want to know that your money is going to be really, really well spent. You don't think about that when you're a customer of an organization buying a thing from them. You want to think, am I getting the best value? Am I getting the thing I need that's going to deliver the outcome I need, and am I getting it at the best price I can get for me? Um so, it's so it is it is both different and and quite similar. But, having come from many, many years in IBM, where purpose was a really powerful motivator and a thing we talked about a lot internally, it really shaped how we developed the organization. Um it it may may be that shift into something that's overtly purposeful. Uh my case, multi-academy trust. Um make made that shift a little easier. >> It's interesting, isn't it, Jack, that you Paralyzed saying that you you need to have a sort of authentic, almost concrete purpose. But, does it always necessarily translate into commercial value if you have that strong sense of purpose? >> It would be a very sad state if we live in a world where businesses give up on purpose being part of of the mix. Um I think this debate has gone has rolled around, hasn't it, for a number of years. I think in the early sort of 10, 15 years ago it was fashionable and it and it was the thing that organizations were quite quick to put at the front of their comms. I think people then started to see through the purpose washing and people and I think in in the FMCG world, we saw that roll back a little bit, didn't we, of of trying to force fit purpose in into products. And reorientate back to what the customer wants or what the product needs needs to deliver. Um and I think, you know, sometimes you do just want a washing powder that's a good washing powder or a razor that's a good razor. Um that said, there are so many other ways for businesses to deliver benefits beyond profit to shareholders in the world. I spent a couple years working for Business in the Community, which is a a nonprofit uh led by the then prince, the now king um as founder and they work they do amazing work with the with the corporate sector looking at all the different ways that you can have an impact on society in your local community. So, it doesn't have to be the thing that's at the front of columns. It can be the thing that's helping equal pay or um it uh the the the direct impact in in a kind of the proximity to to where you are in the community. So, purpose can have different roots and it can have different benefits. It doesn't have to be the consumer-facing thing. Um that said I think if it has no uh if there is no financial gain but there's no financial loss what an amazing thing businesses can do to help different communities and and audiences feel seen, feel understood, raise issues build awarenesses of things that actually can gain traction because of that. So I think the strategic conversation around purpose is really interesting in the boardroom and what what lens people look at it through. Obviously, in the nonprofit sector, it's non-negotiable. You need a purpose. At Sense, we've just um revisited our vision and our purpose. So, we're we're just at our 70th anniversary and we're looking at the next 70 years. And actually, I think in the in the charitable sector, it's how focused your purpose is. And then how well aligned your strategic tactical plans are to to deliver that which makes it successful or not. Not whether you've got one or not, it's is it is it really like razor sharp for today and for the needs of um a few audiences, particularly for nonprofits that have been around for a long while. Like, have you reorient it back to the people you're here to represent? Are they telling you what they need and are you delivering that? Is your purpose still fit for for purpose? So, there's there's different ways to look at purpose from a commercial point of view and from a nonprofit. Either way, you've got to get it right that works for you, that's authentic for you and and um isn't uh false fitted uh because of a trend or uh a particular um uh reason that's superficial. >> Yeah, I mean there clearly there are there are some similarities between the corporate world and the not-for-profit charitable sector. There are some commonalities. Uh but there are also some differences of nuance. Presumably when you shifted from one to the other, you had to do some unlearning. There were things that you had to unlearn in order to be able to move to a to to to a mainline charity. What were they? >> Working in in the private sector to to nonprofit is obviously a big shift, but also the shift working just running a marketing comms team versus running a social change team. Uh the big shift for me is trying to unlearn, to use your your word there, Ben. Trying to unlearn that delivering your plan is is success. So, I spent a lot of many years leading marketing comms teams where you you promise a plan and a budget, and you spend all year working to deliver that because internal stakeholders and reporting structures, etc. And that's good, and if that's delivering organizational objectives, that all feels quite sensible. This move into social change is that you're trying to impact something way bigger than what sometimes your organization can even define. And so, delivering a plan that's been defined 12 months prior isn't always success as the external environment is telling you that you need to do something different. There'll be factors that are beyond your control. I mean, you need to pivot in different directions. And the leadership of a social change function is actually about saying we will do whatever it takes to create the change that we need to create. And if that means having to resell another plan back to the the board, we'll have to do that. If it means uh negotiating for extra funds from elsewhere to invest in certain areas, we'll do that. But it's being so on top of I'll be focused on the right things. Do we have a plan that's going to get us to the end result? So not a deliverable marketing plan, but social change. You know, and holding that responsibility of those that we're here to to represent and and support and work alongside. That's been really interesting for me. That actually it's always both eyes on the on the outcome. Um, it's what what's fascinating is um, the social change in our planning process. We use theory of change as a planning tool. So we look at what is the change we want to see. What are the outputs that come towards that? And then what are the inputs? What's the links in the chain almost that would make that happen? And then you devise your marketing and comms like tactics and plans. And as opposed to maybe taking a kind of organizational objective and and and creating a marketing and comms plan. And with that it's uh, the question you're always asking yourself is are we on the right road to get to the end of this theory of change? Because if we're just busy, that busy fools thing, if we're just busy, um, my job is to then stand up in front of the board and tell them what change we've we've made in 12 months. And if I can't do that, by default, uh, I'm held responsible. You know, my you'd be not called chief social change officer if um, if you're not making change happen. No, it's actually you can go go and kind of do another job elsewhere. So it adds such responsibility, but that's that's right. Accountability is great and then I think the the planning in social change adds that accountability. >> It's fascinating, isn't it, Caroline, that you know, Jax describing a difference between perhaps what you'd have in the corporate world generally, an internal target, improving the bottom line, typically. Um, improving profitability or turnover or whatnot. With an external target, you know, he's he he is targeting on changing society, you know, no pressure. You're you're you're you're not just changing your organization, you're going to change society for you to succeed. That's a massive unlearning, presumably, when you make that shift. >> It it it it it absolutely is. I think the thing I would, you know, the word that sprang to my mind when you when you asked the question was un to unlearn impatience. And it's not because and it isn't because you can just sit back and it's and the stakes aren't as high cuz they're actually higher cuz these are real human beings on the other end of your success or failure. But because the the goals tend to be a much longer-term thing. Um whereas in the corporate world, you you know, you can have your three, five, 10-year strategy, but my goodness, you are you are held feet to the fire to the quarterly outcomes. And which was always very frustrating. I can't tell you the number of times that one heard the expression, "You can't turn a supertanker around that fast." You know, if you were trying to change the direction of a supertanker, it doesn't happen instantly. It cuz we'll we'll learn to be true. Um so, it was always very frustrating when there were market shifts or whatever unless you were ahead of them that you know, to if you're playing catch-up. So, I think that you know, trying to unlearn impatience and know you have to keep your eye on the milestones. I think Jack It's exactly what you're talking about, isn't it? Know that always checking are you on the right trajectory to to deliver the change you're committed to to delivering. The other thing for me that was a big shift, mostly because the nature of my role has changed, because I am in a non-exec role, um a governance and an oversight role, I I've had to learn to stay in my lane. I would be a terrible coach. I do lots of mentoring, but I'd be a terrible coach because my instinct is to solve problems. So, in any discussion, I sometimes have to almost physically restrain myself from leaping in with the solution. Um cuz that isn't what I'm there to do. Um and of course it's there to support and help and as well as well as the government's native side responsibility, but so that's that's been that's been really interesting and again, people who worked with in past will find know will know how, you know, I always have to sit on my hands and >> [laughter] >> um force myself not to step into that role of the the executive. >> You know, it is enough fascinating fascinating. A bit of a learning to be done to to to succeed when you make the shift. Most of our audience, it has to be said, will not have made that shift. Some of them may be interested in making the shift. Many of them are very happy working in the corporate world or indeed working for agent on agency side for corporate brands, but nevertheless to pick up on your point earlier, Jack, lots of these brands genuinely and I do believe genuinely do want to do something which will help society, you know, uh and not just for uh sort of entirely self-serving reasons. There are all good brands out there who do want to do purpose-led activity to make a societal shift. Um there's been a thing now which we hear called purpose washing, which is that um sometimes brands are sort of almost shying away from doing this stuff or saying anything about their good work that they're doing in the society or community because they get accused of this stuff. >> [gasps] >> Um and many people listening will be interested in how they deliver this sort of activity while avoiding this pitfall about purpose washing, you know, how we used the word earlier, authenticity. How that they can be seen to be authentic in their uh societal change gambit, if you like, um doing it for altruistic reasons, not for self-serving ones. A big question perhaps, but um Carolyn, how do they do it? >> Well, I'm going to I'm going to be a little bit radical and say I think self-serving is okay, but I've been a really big fan from for a couple a couple of decades at least of the concept of enlightened self-interest. >> Mhm. >> In the corporate world, because here's the problem. If you have what they call checkbook philanthropy where the CEO or somebody very senior is a big fan of this, that, or the other, has a personal you know, interest and wants to help in a some societal issue challenge charity. And when things are going well, they're signing big checks and then isn't that great? And of course it's great. We all all charities need more funds we can do more of the great work we do if we have more money. Wonderful. But the reality is it doesn't last. Enlightened self-interest to me, is all about finding that sweet spot between the core business and the and the objectives you have as a business to grow, to to generate profit, um, you know, all of that good stuff. And the impact you can have on society. Let me give you a couple of examples. I mentioned that having got involved with Stop the Traffik and then joined their board and eventually chaired their board while I was still at IBM. IBM then got involved with Stop the Traffik and provided an enormous amount of software and the expertise free of charge to the charity as they built this amazing thing called the Traffic Analysis Hub. Nothing to do with traffic as in roads, it's all to do with human trafficking, modern slavery. And actually built a platform, a data sharing platform for big corporates, big banks, and NGOs to put their data in that allowed the use of very smart analytics and AI to start figuring out some of these patterns so that you could actually identify where the where the trafficking itself of the individual humans was happening and so that law enforcement could get in there and and do something about it. An absolutely extraordinary thing. Did IBM do that out of the goodness of their heart? Nope. They did it because it gave them an opportunity to showcase the amazing power of the technology that they were selling to their many, many corporate clients. Um and so to me that is enlightened self-interest. It had It was enlightened because it had such a such a great positive uh positive impact um out there in the world, out there in society in literally helping to break down the criminal networks that are selling human beings. But it was also good for them. And I actually think that to me feels really sustainable. So I think that that, you know, that that kind of thing works really well. Similarly, um uh and I don't know if it was It might probably before your time, Jack, working for um Business in the Community, but way back when in When am I going back to? 2008, 2009, the then Prince of Wales created this initiative called Start. It's all about getting people to take on board personal action or companies to take on corporate-level action to make us a more sustainable nation. And IBM was one of the founding partners. Again, it it was really beneficial to us. We built new business relationships with senior people in big companies in the UK, which was very beneficial to our organization. But at the same time, we took that message out there and engaged, you know, uh thousands and thousands of people on how they might think about making themselves more sustainable. By the way, IBM had an entire business consulting practice about uh carbon management. And so, you know, so I anyway, just a couple of examples, but but there are many, many ways. So if you are a marketer and you you want to have societal impact, you've got to find those sweet spots where what you do anyway can coincide with something in society that will make a difference. And and if it's a win-win, then it will survive, it will thrive, and and it will do the job. >> Yeah, interesting interesting, Jack. Carolyn Taylor saying enlightened self-interest is enlightened because actually what it means is that these good societal shifts that corporates can do will be sustainable because frankly there's something in it for them. >> Yeah, I think you you you hit the nail on the head talking about the sweet spot. I think what's interesting is that where that's where it originates from. Where does the purpose originate from? So if this originates from your marketing agency or your comms team, I think that's where the problem probably it can be found. I think if this originated from your origin story or your founders or from a strategic process, it's it's very very different. I don't think this is overly complicated. I think Caroline articulated it really well that the sort of model that that you need to get to. Um the other part of it then is just is building the credibility, you know. If it's surface level comms about purpose, people will see through it. If you've got a a process of how you build credibility in that space, then I don't think you need to worry, which was your original question, Ben, about the the backlash, if you like. Um if there's credibility and if you're asking in the boardroom the right questions, do you really believe in this? Are we investing in it? Is it influencing our decisions? Like what's happening when it's inconvenient? You know, there has to be a cost to purpose, broadly. Um initially, it might lead to future profits because of the the benefits of that sweet spot, but there's a cost. There's time, there's investment, there's uh resource redirected in in different different places. That's good. That's a sign that an organization is um giving it weight to solve a problem. That's fine. But I don't think it's overly complicated that you'd find the sweet spot, you'd build some credibility, and you'd have a structure in place in your governance to hold yourselves accountable. Your colleagues will believe in that, then your investors will, your partners will, the local community will. Um I think we're in an era now where perhaps we're overcomplicating it and we need to get back to just being brave and doing it and doing it really well. >> Interesting. And there must be differences in the activity one uses, however, to market, let's say, a gadget, a product versus marketing a shift in societal versus marketing a societal shift. You know, uh, I realize in the business you do, Jack, you're you're working to change how people perceive disability and how interact and how people interact with disabled people. You know, that's a massive change that is required. How do you market that change that you're being made versus traditional marketing where you're marketing a product or a service? >> Yeah, it is chalk and cheese, um, if I'm honest. Um, you know, the the product is is is trying to change people's choices, isn't it? Whereas we're in the business of changing systems, like this system level change. Um, and with that comes a whole different time scale. So, you mentioned it earlier, Ben, that we're working in a in a long time scale here, often often years. And if you think of campaigns around smoking, seat belts, drink driving, the recent social media ban, these things are not happening by quick paid ad campaign. Uh, they're they're happening through long-term influencing, movement building, changes to societal uh, beliefs, uh, pressure that builds on the government. The government then to take some kind of review or action which then moves through into into law. That's that's that's huge and and that that unfortunately is a long game, which is why it is purpose-driven because you're investing all of your kind of uh, resource and energies into something that's um, might possibly never happen. That's the really hard bit in non- in nonprofits is that most of our visions, every charity I've worked in, the vision is have very difficult, if not impossible, to to come true. Um however, you have some tactical plans where you say, "Okay, what are the open doors?" So, at the moment, the government are reforming in pretty much every single government department. They're reforming the health system, education, welfare. And so, for us as a as a charity, that's great news because there's lots of open doors where we can go in and we can help raise the voices of people maybe affected by these reforms to try and influence the decisions the government make. On the flip side, there's reforms happening in every single government all at once, and we have a limited amount of resource, and so you have to pick your battles. You have to be really smart about how you deploy your resource. Um you have to be really focused on what are the most important things that people here to serve are telling us they need and want. And that's where you go back to what's similar to the the the corporate sector in that you it's market orientation, as you would say in marketing jargon. It's it's but marketing orientation that is so hyper focused on what your audience needs. What what's the property you're trying to solve? What's the We call them what the barriers. What the barriers in society that are so tall, so high, and so on fire that are stopping people living the lives that they want. What are those barriers? And then what can we do together to to to break them break them down? Because we'd only be doing is focusing on the wrong barriers or a barrier that's too small or one that's never going to be removed because the government is just not interested in it. It's not even on their agenda. You have to find the opportunities. So, it is really different. There's learnings and there's best practice, you know, I've been on you know, the the the training and the the marketing principles that have been around the donkeys years, they all still apply. That strategic thinking, the market orientation, segmentation, targeting, positioning, all of that stuff still applies. It's just with social change, you're looking at a system change as opposed to product uh specific and it's different different time scales, different audiences, different degrees of difficulty, hehe, which makes it interesting. >> You're nodding furiously, Caroline. I was going to ask you, obviously there's a longer-term change you're trying to make, a societal shift. Is there still some classic marketing techniques which you deploy such as deploying a simple message that everyone can understand, that people who perhaps don't know anything uh about the issues with the disabled community or whatever um can understand? >> Well, I I I think there is. I mean, I think the the the sort of um the preparation phase, if you like, you know, that understanding your audience, really understanding what it is they want what it is they need, understanding where they are on on a journey of understanding. I mean, you do that whatever you're trying to sell or market, you that that's a fundamental part of what we do as marketers. Um in terms of um uh you know, the tactics. So, yes, absolutely. If you can if you can net it down to a simple message, but sometimes these are very very complex um things that you're trying to address. And there possibly is there probably it possibly isn't one single simple sentence, you know, there isn't a phrase that you can you can capture. However, I do think that one area of uh tactical activity that is that works incredibly well in both spaces, and that is storytelling. So, you know, as a fundamental part of your communication. So, if you can't net it down to one single thing, the storytelling the storytelling about the impact, the storytelling about the outcomes that I imagine that in in the space you're working in the storytelling around the the lived experience of of people who who are you know on the wrong side of those barriers. Um storytelling I mean it's such a powerful thing, isn't it? We know that it works in selling. We know that it works in in in getting people on board, getting people to believe in a thing cuz that's actually often you know at the fundamental start point is you can get people to believe that a thing is wrong uh uh not fair. Um you can get people to believe that it is possible to fix it um and that they might have a role and they might be able to play their part in fixing it. That's a big fundamental piece of what we what we have to do. >> Is it more important Is it more important than data, do you think? Those human stories, that storytelling piece, is it more important than leaning into the data to what the data says? >> I I'm going to say I would say it's both. It's definitely both. Sometimes the data If you talk to some of the team from Stop the Traffic, what they would tell you is the data the data helps them find the stories that they need to tell. Um which is which is you know which is important and and and helpful and interesting, but ultimately I mean I'm look I'm a very simple soul. Ultimately all marketing is about person A engaging and communicaticating with person B. Now, sure in marketing we do that at scale sometimes. So, you know, you're you're you're one person trying to communicate to you know 10 million individual human beings. Um but still it is that ultimately it comes down to that engagement and and and interaction and communication. Um and so and stories are what this how it's how humanity has existed forever. We tell each other stories in order to help each other understand what it is we're trying to say. Um, and so so yeah, I it is data and stories, but it absolutely comes down to humanity and relationship and relational um engagement, I think. >> Do you think storytelling or data where where do you lie, Jack? >> It's certainly both. Um, you know, in terms of our media work, we'd need both the data, the the statistics um to to look at the how compelling that that argument is, and then we need the story to bring it to life, the human interest. In in terms of the messaging, you know, that what we what we would aim to find is what's the common thing that we all believe in. So, if we're trying to influence the general public to back us on a campaign or a particular government department to to consider something differently. In terms of our messaging, what you don't want to be doing, which is probably the case for all of us, is talk too much about yourself. And what you want to be thinking is what is the intended target think and feel, and where do we where's the common ground in this? So, you know, for example, the government reviewing all the welfare support at the moment. Um, it's a very heated debate, and there's lots of different perspectives on it. Um, but one question you can come at that with is do we all believe that everybody has should have the opportunity to to to live a life in >> [snorts] >> on equal terms? Um, and those that are that have significant complex needs that would never work. Um, do we do we believe that we should support them to live a life that's independent where they feel in control, where they feel involved and can make decisions in in their in their life? And if we believe that, then we're on a mission to make sure that can happen, and you can join us and you can help us with that. That's really different to to talking about like the specifics of something that's um that can be interpreted in different ways. So, it's finding the common beliefs um which I guess from a you know, from a in a commercial sense, that's where your brand messaging might come into play more than your product. Um but it's really important. So, it's the for me it's that mix of data, storytelling, and the the highest level of messaging that you can get that would resonate with your audience. >> Fantastic. Remarkably, we are amazingly close to the end of our time, which has been a fascinating discussion. But let's boil this down to some practical steps. There will be lots of people listening to this show. As I say, only a small probably a relatively small proportion of will be working in the charitable and nonprofit sector. Most of them will be working either client side or agency side for companies. But nevertheless, will be interested in embedding this concept of purpose into their daily working lives. So, I'm going to ask for practical steps that listeners can take to embed purpose into their daily marketing activity. I'll start with you, Caroline. >> I mean, I think it is what we've spoken about already, which is finding that sweet spot between what it is your company does, your organization does, and how can you leverage that to have to have positive impact in the world, and then look for that sweet spot, those opportunities where those things coincide, where you can play that in life light and self-interest card that allows you to do something really positive and great for your business at the same time as having a positive impact in society. And don't try and make it something random and left field that is nothing to do with what you do, because it it won't wash. Um make it something that's really pertinent to to the impact that your product service offerings have uh out there in the world. >> Very interesting. Great tip for your sweet spot, Jack. >> Yeah, I mean your question is about how do you embed it into people's daily activity and I think I mean even in the non-profit sector, it's it's not like we wake up every single day and we jump for joy that we are working for a charity and uh that's got a purpose. Uh you know, it becomes it becomes the everyday and uh you still have to help your teams find meaning in their work, believe it or not. As a as a leader of of a large team, you still have to help people find that connection between what they're doing on a daily basis to the overall goal. Um so take that and move that into sort of commercial sector where the purpose isn't centered to all activity, that's even harder to help people daily feel like that they're having a purpose in in their work and sometimes it's not not needed on a daily basis. I think sometimes you can be uh there's an unauthentic approach where you're you're trying to make people feel or do things that actually materially are not needed. Um but also the the the job of a good leader is to bring meaning to people's work, isn't it? And so I think for me it's more great leadership from from CEO downwards in terms of what what they really care about, what change are we hoping to see in the next 12 months, non-profit or not, um and then helping people in their roles understand what the thread is between what they do on a daily basis to to to get that outcome, but I don't think I don't think we need to overdo it. I think we need to be true to ourselves, be proportionate in the amount of purpose comms that we do, um but at the same time be ambitious. I think the corporate sector has an amazing opportunity to uh deliver purpose or actually to just to financially support charities, their communities to deliver it themselves. You know, there's there's something that actually they I need to be a month that that do the doing. Uh you can use your infrastructure, your resource, your volunteers, your funds to make happen elsewhere. >> Any wild card tip from either of you? >> I would just say if you're working for an organization that truly their only purpose is to make a lot of money for their shareholders, maybe a good time to start looking for a different job. >> Great tip. And uh finally, let's look into our crystal balls. This This tends to be people's least favorite uh the question because of course how can you possibly know? But if you look ahead for 5 years or to the future to the nearish future in marketing and marketing leadership, what do you think and I'll start with you, Jack, will distinguish those people who've successfully brought about a societal change from those that have failed to do so. >> I think at the moment it's having the ability to understand the context that we're working and the influence that will have on how we can deliver our plans. So, the political context, uh the um the economic context, the way um I guess if you look at the way equality is being challenged at the moment, human rights, the role that charities play when we're meant to be politically neutral, but we're politically active is difficult, particularly in a world where the political environment is increasingly uh diverse and and and challenging. And so, I think to lead your charity through those examples, you need to be really have a really good understanding of what's going on. And uh interestingly this morning, um I brought together people who do my job at executive level in uh in charities across the UK. We brought them together in a in a forum called the Leaders of Change Forum. Um the idea was to discuss things just like that. How are we going to evolve our thinking to navigate this because they're big challenges that we haven't really faced before. Um so I think that's one is understanding that external environment. Um and the second is the internal in that there are about five generations working in the workforce now. We work in different ways. We work remotely. Uh there's a cost of living crisis. Different generations expect different things of us as employers. As a leader, how do you understand the modern workforce, the modern way of working to lead a modern organization? And I think that takes some self-reflection, self-awareness. It takes upskilling. It takes accepting that you don't know everything. And it takes an appreciation that we're on a bit of a journey together. I think you need to do work as a leader on yourself and the way you lead as well. I think we can get those two things right. That's got to help. And this is the long to-do list. Uh you know, back at work with all the things we also have to do and deliver, meet budget. All those things. Um but they're important as as well. >> Caroline, uh the context of where generationally aware marketer will be the most successful in making change. >> Um well, I'm going to cheat slightly if I may um and share with you one of my favorite quotes, but I think it's super pertinent to your question. And it's Maya Angelou when she said, "People will forget what you said, and they will forget what you did, but they will never forget how you made them feel." The reason I think that's pertinent to your question is successful leadership are going to make people feel. And when people feel about a thing, whatever the thing might be, then they act. And And if they act, if our audiences take action on the back of feeling, whatever the thing is, in whatever sphere we're talking about, then we will be successful as leaders. There is way too much focus on what did you do? Irrelevant. Kind of irrelevant. Not totally irrelevant, but quite irrelevant. What do you say? Even more irrelevant. What did you What did you do? No, no. How did people feel as a result of those things? And what did they then do because of how you made them feel? That would be the winning ticket. >> Caroline Taylor OBE and Jack Lohman, thank you very much indeed. >> Thanks, Ben. >> Searching for a way to build your organization's marketing capability? CIM's Company Affiliate Programme provides a simple, strategic route to a more confident, high-performing department. Get in touch [music] with our experts today to discuss how we can help you develop your talent and deliver better commercial results. Head to cim.co.uk and search Company Affiliate. The contents and views expressed by individuals in this podcast are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the Chartered Institute Marketing or the companies they work for. >> [music] [music]