How Love Dies: The Psychology of Cheating & Attraction - Esther Perel

Oddly, our attachment systems lie to us. They lie to us. And uh this was put to me earlier this year is red flags don't look red if you're wearing rosecolored glasses. And I think that's what the early stages of a relationship are. The early stages of a relationship are rosecolored glasses. And a lot of the time it means that you don't see red flags. >> Yeah. I mean definitely the early stage is a stage of idealization. um you project onto the person. You feel so good about yourself in their presence. They make you feel smart, beautiful, um irreplaceable, unique. Um and and you kind of get hooked to that feeling, you know, I used to feel so good in your presence. Why now do I don't don't I why has it changed? Um some people partner with someone and all they think to themselves consciously or not is please don't ever change. And some people partner with someone and in the back of their mind it is this is going to change. This is going to change. This is going to change. >> Oh, they're in love with their potential. >> Yes, that's one way of of of looking at this. It's like um Yes, that's definitely one one one way. And I think it's an interesting thing who you know when you actually want this to remain set and I think that after the idealization we start to experience with the people that we are with experiences from other relationships expectations, disappointments, breaches that we experienced elsewhere and that we now bring into this relation. relationship. The way I typically used to say it is that there's only because people often say, "I don't have this issue with anybody else. I don't have this at work. I don't have this with my friends." And I always say, "I totally understand it because there's only two relationships that mirror each other. The one of your romantic and intimate life now and the one and the original one. They echo each other. the one that you had with the people who raised you. And these two have an echo chamber with each other in most unconscious and visceral ways. >> It's it's strange to think about how much of our adult life is puppeted by things that happened before we could even remember it. You know, it's it's kind of it's strange with attachment theory, right? Because attachment theory is your attachment. >> Is it true? Is it true, Chris? is the question we think this way. It's a common model. It's a it's a framework of modern psychology and it suits us. I mean, you know, it's very much a second nature for me to think this way because I was steeped into this kind of way of thinking about the humankind and human nature and relationships. But sometimes I ask myself is that what would happen if somebody came in with a completely different theory? You think that attachment theory might be due for a replication crisis at some point in future? >> Here's someone you know there used to be a very prevalent theory when psychoanalysis was really at the core of our psychological culture and it believed in what and still does in the eripus complex. Now, you know who still talks about the eripus complex in the general culture? Maybe in an in an analyst office, but in the general culture, it's kind of p you know, the truth of today is often the joke of tomorrow. >> So, um this is a perfect example of something that was never considered a theory. It was considered true. Every five-year-old goes through the dirtus complex. Every three year old really >> wow. So, the the current world of anxious attachment and this happened before you could even speak and this is ingrained in your nervous system might be in 20 years time the Edypus complex of 2025. >> Yeah, it's a theory. Let's you know and a theory has definitely elements of truth that it tries to describe. It theoretizes over a certain set of observations but that doesn't mean it's true. And um there have been other theories like that that have been debunked that we sincerely believed in you know including that children don't me remember anything you know but they do and that you know so there's a lot of the attachment is a theory it's a very powerful and a very useful theory it's a vocabulary it's a meaning making system it's a theory >> it would there's definitely a question around how much is it a self-fulfilling prophecy how much is it that you've done this assessment or you've spent some time reflecting and you think that you are a person with dismissive avoidant attachment or you've got anxious attachment or you've got what and then you start to show up in that way in your relationship and it becomes unfalsifiable because you know it you can't unknow it >> you know when I say to people you really found each other it's a very interesting way you found each other. And it allows you to both replicate your core models of relatedness or attachment. And the reason why that's useful is because it allows you in order once you've replicated it, you can finally change it. It's a beautiful framework. It's useful. I have no idea if it's true. Do you understand? But it's useful. It helps. It makes sense of things. You know, you and I, we're doing with each other and I do with you and I interpret you, you know, in in ways that have kind of a second nature to me. I've really learned to expect that when people act the way you do, I'm interpreting it ABC. And now that we have replayed my original drama, we can start to work on it and hopefully rewrite it and differentiate myself from it. It's great. But I like the notion that it's useful and I say things in my work to people and it only is true if they bite. If it's relevant to them, if it resonates with them, then it's true. They say that's exactly it. Okay, I love it. Means I I resonate with you. I understood what's going on here. But is it true? They say that's true. What do you make of the mankeeping trend that women are worried about right now? >> Another word we needed in the vocabulary in the pantheon of relationship vocabulary. I mean honestly um I think that as a whole I tend to stay away from polarizing discourses. I carry the burden. You carry the burden. No, I carry the burden. You know, um, have women often been the primary social outlet for men? Yes. Does that have to do with something that men want? Not necessarily. Yesterday, I spoke with a patient who, you know, was has a newborn and young kids and was really kind of feeling like he's not doing it well, neither at the company nor at home. something very natural that we hear often from from moms but but that's because we don't ask dad that question doesn't mean dads don't experience it and at one point you know he wanted to go and visit his friends abroad and and you know the question was is there a permission and I use the word permission and acceptance for him to not be home except when it's for work you know is it only okay to not be home when you're working if you actually are going to see friends, then you must may just as well be home with me. >> And then we talk about how men often don't have friends in the house. And then we talk about how they rely on the Ministry of Social Affairs and it's a she. And when you look at queer couples, this whole dance is very differently. So, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be gendered. Often it is a role arrangement in which one person is the one who orchestrates the social life >> and the other one follows other sometimes it's because they don't have people sometimes it's because they're conflict avoidant and and sometimes it's because they're just placating and they want to make it easy and I'll just go wherever you want to go. So I think I like to look at dynamics. I think I don't necessarily want to create dogmas and man keeping you know it's social affairs and it's emotional life right yes a lot of men find themselves in relationships with women in this context where she is his primary emotional outlet now some of this is because they may live in a context where male vulnerability is not tolerated some of this is Because we accept much more that men can lose their friends. I mean, when you look at sevenyear-old and six-year-old boys, they're no different. They have they cry like the girls. They have friends like the girls. They, you know, it's a it's a it's a it's a male code. It's a it's a it's a cultural indoctrination that leads a lot of men often to give up on their friendships. They're not valued for having great friendships. They're valued for being competent and accomplished and useful and performative. And so, you know, I think for me it's more interesting to look at cultural systems, look at what is universal, what appears in every culture, even though it comes in a different color, >> you know, pink, red, and and others than talking about it as something that is men versus women. I think these days we're sliding into real polarizing men versus women. This one doesn't need and Tik Tok is just like clamoring away about how he's an idiot and she's a [ __ ] and um seriously is I don't want my kids and anybody else's kids to be part of that kind of a culture. I think that friendship between boys and girls is phenomenal. Friendship in general is phenomenal. Let the boys and girls have a great friendship. You learn a ton about what not to do with your girlfriend and boyfriend and whatever else and them friends. You know, to me it's about how do we add things, not how do we separate things. >> I think it's a great point around the tribalism at the moment. I mean, >> yeah, >> people people can be tribal about anything, right? There's a a great study where they brought uh a group of 100 people, brought them into a room and at the front of the room they tossed a coin and if the coin was heads you were blue team and if the coin was tails you were red team >> and everybody behaved according to the color they had. Oh yes. >> So you go over and you speak to the blue team and you say, "So what do you think about the red team?" They go, "Wow, I'm in there. They're not as smart as us, are they? They sort of look a bit stupid. Like they're obviously not." And it's like you've just seen how arbitrary the selection criteria was. You know that it was a 50/50 complete chance for you to be on this side than that and immediately people fall into the tribal thing. But I I I couldn't agree more. >> It's like the prisoner experiment. I mean it's it's phenomenal, you know, how you tell me I'm this and I will become that. I will act accordingly. It's really >> on the on the cultural coding side. Just to ask a a question. you're evolutionarily educated. >> At least as far as I can see, it would have been adaptive and it seems to be the case that men are able to deal with uh more transient and looser friendships because there was a higher likely higher male disposability uh ancestrally. We go out for a hunt and unfortunately uh you're Ian now. Ian, you you fell down a ravine and you're gone. So Ian's gone now. um I need to be able to move on as a man. If you're alo parenting with your group of female aunties, friends, and and grandmas and stuff, that social network would naturally be more tightly tied. So, at least as far as I can see, I don't I wouldn't lay everything at the feet of culture. I'm aware that this may vary across the world, but I c I certainly think that men have an uphill battle when it comes to in adulthood, especially if they're working, especially if they're, you know, trying to provide and and and do all of the things for the family. And also trying to hold on to male friendships in a manner that maybe just isn't quite so natural to them. You know, 51% of men lack a single confidant for emotional support. Uh, and obviously we have your significant other, the person you spend the most time with, the one you're building this life with. You go to sleep with them every night. You've got this shared family and you bring bringing these kids up. And I think, you know, to fly the flag for men, I think it's a difficult circle to square that men are are told to sort of open up more and be emotionally vulnerable, but they have a limited bucket of people to be able to do that with. And the one that they can do it with is now feeling the pressure of I have to be his therapist. I have to be his his muse. I have to be his diva. I've got to be his housekeeper and his massage, you know, physical therap. I got to be all of these things. And both sides again, as opposed to going, that's really tough. We can't live on a single wage anymore. And you have to do the double shift when you get home from work, my darling, because not only have you worked today, but the kids need the pack lunches making for tomorrow. And I've had a rough day at work as well. And I've got to get home and I I had this I I'm feeling some stuff and I really need to open up to you. And as opposed to that, it is this it's very tight and it's very adversarial. And that's reflected in single world and in the married world. It's reflected in media and it's reflected in relating relationships and uh I'm on board. I don't I don't like the way that everything is becoming more and more tribal even within the context of an intimate relationship or people talking about getting together and trying to be in love. >> So you you bring up two two points for me. Um first of all on on the on the the evolutionary versus the cultural I'm multilingual. I speak many languages and I speak that languages too. I can go back and forth between evolutionary language and cultural language. For me the beauty is how they interact with each other. Not which one has the supremacy over the other. Is it more cultural? Is it more evolutionary and biological? It's the you know you come in with a certain predisposition that is biological or innate and then there is a culture that sits on top of it and you and responds to this versus that because this is the thing that stands out. So um I I totally agree that that we are shaped by both you know um but the interesting thing about the your illusion to the man keeping or to the man having relying primarily on their partner is that sometimes one of the paradoxes here is that he coming to her confiding in her opening himself up to her letting him you know when a man opens up often in my office too. You know, it's not just that he's saying something that he has not said to others. He's often never even said it to himself. It's really beautiful and very moving. And so she in the beginning looks at this and thinks this is wonderful. I am the chosen one with whom he feels that comfortable, that open, that vulnerable, you know. So back to your thing that the very thing that is originally attractive can become the very source of conflict and disagreement later. This one too, you know, I like how do you talk to me and I like how you know I feel so chosen by your by by the fact that it's with me that you've decided to domesticate yourself to open yourself to finally settle whatever the whole thing. So it's a it's an interesting thing that you know what becomes mankeeping later wasn't always experienced as mankeeping in the beginning. >> Oh my god he's so open with me. He's never said this to anybody before I feel >> and that makes me very special. >> Yeah the picture I mean this this is the the the that's why to make it rather than this >> is a whole different way of uh of looking at it. I do, you know, this notion of male loneliness and the the phenomenon that we're talking about at this moment is fairly recent. 19th century America, men had plenty of friends. You go to your islands in all over the world, men sit after they've finished fishing, they're talking to each other, they're smoozing. They don't need to do personal, you know, expression of their deepest feelings to feel intimate and close. that m there are multiple languages and um and to make this a kind of a an innate or a gender division I think is is unfortunate and it's being exploited big time. It's being exploited by people who really gain from creating divisions, from creating suspicions, from kind of breaking the the deep feeling of um complimentarity >> actually that exists. Now, you know, the thing that's very interesting for me is that for so many centuries, we saw masculinity as obvious, luminous, simple, doesn't need explanation. What is a man? It's clear it's not a woman. And you know, women was this kind of mysterious continent that you had to go and elucidate, figure out what's what's in there. You know, it's what's in there from the psychological point of view and the genital point of view. What's in there? What is this thing called woman? >> Yeah. >> You know, and then you begin to pay attention that, you know, there's an entire appropo vocabulary. Man up, show me your man, you know, be a man. I mean, masculinity is often accompanied with an with a mandate, with an imperative, with a thing that needs to prove itself constantly. So, I began to think that if you always have to prove it, maybe it's not that obvious in the first place. >> Oh, that's interesting that nobody nobody would ever say that you need to woman up. That a woman a woman's value is innate and imbued whereas a man >> serious. She knows who she is. She doesn't man is performative. be show me your use you use you use you use you use you use you use you use you use you use youthfulness >> yeah and go to the woods and get some rituals that toughen you up that transition you from boy to men I mean there are very few of those rituals for women because they're biological a propoe evolutionary theory they're very biological she doesn't really have to wonder you know of course a lot of these things switch once you begin to separate gender from anatomy but until for historically that so that was the case so I began to think masculinity is not nearly that simple, not nearly that obvious, maybe not nearly so easily acquired. Actually, it is hard to acquire and easy to lose. >> What do you lay the male loneliness that we're seeing at the feet of what's what's driving this sort of beyond surface causes of people spending more time online? >> I think that male loneliness is not just male. I think that there is women, girls, children. I don't think it's just gendered. I think it's more so for men, for boys. Let's start because it's younger because there is less of an acquired socialization. That is about if you feel the stress, you go and you reach out. The the socialization of boys is often if you feel the stress, you toughen it up. You keep it in. You you you do something to get the st to you know you go do some sport some activity to get the feeling out of your system. You don't go to find someone to talk about the feelings. That is a very different you know I I have two boys a brother a husband a father. I've been I've not had women in my in intimate circle except for mom. I've kind of spend a tremendous amount of time. That doesn't mean I'm right but it just means I've looked at this. you know what did I say when they would be in certain situations and what would I have said if I had a girl you know we know that we touch boys as of the age of three much less than we touch our girls so it's it's it's coded in on so many levels so what makes the boys feel lonely is yes I do think it's a it's a whole augment increase of the contactless world that we're living in you So you could say they're not lonely when they're playing games and they're online with other kids who are also playing. I mean they they are interacting but it is absolutely not the same as going outside and playing with a ball. Um I think that as a whole kids are not playing on the street these days. They're playing freely on the street and having this huge ground for social negotiation that where you hone your skills. You make war, you make peace, you create alliances, you have groups, you you fight, you resolve, you fight without adults, unsupervised, unscripted, unmonitored. You learn social skills. That whole thing is gone. More so for boys than for girls because they played more in groups like that through the sports that used to be played on the streets. What makes boys more lonely is that their girls and women later are over served with advice about relationships and typically men are underserved. M >> that is not what people if you look at the magazines it is not what people magazines and everything online that followed mag it's not what men are served with you know you're not served with you know what you do when you hurt what you do when you're mad what do you do when you're heartbroken what you do when you fall in love with someone who hasn't even noticed you what do you do when you ghosted what and they come to me they come to you they they come you know I I have more men almost than women alone on the podcast on where should we begin doing sessions with them and I'm just every time I think the courage it took for them. >> I mean I think the courage for the girls too at the women but there is something about especially when I know which part of the world they're calling me from and I'm thinking wow we're going to talk about how you fell in love with your best friend. Wow. We're going to talk about how, you know, you you you you fear the violence inside of you because of what you experienced at at was done to you. Wow. Um, you know, you've actually had massive acne all your life and you don't have any sense that somebody could ever find you attractive. Well, I mean, I can rattle you like 25. >> As as you're saying them, I'm thinking if that was said by a woman, what is my sort of natural response? It's a awe. It's sad. It's sort of coddling. It's she deserves sympathy. Uh and to hear it from a guy to hear a guy say something about my body. There's a part of my body or my appearance that I'm ashamed of. And you know the even in me as someone I I'm try to be pretty empathetic. I think I'm pretty empathetic. I'm like there's a the initial response is that's something that we should all get over. And how much of that is my own insecurities about myself coming up and not wanting them to be seen, not wanting them to be thrown into harsh light by by that guy. This is I read this phenomenal article uh yesterday and this is a pretty unpopular opinion, but it's so unpopular I've literally never heard anyone say it before. >> So, um a lot of the time we talk about how men don't get a lot of support publicly for falling behind. We've got high rates of depression, suicidality, incarceration, drug addiction, homelessness, death by their own hands, dangerous driving, you know, death by cop, death by overdose, all of these things. >> Right. You're right. >> And at the same time, much of this is pushed primarily by men who want to stand up for guys and say, systemically, we need to change this thing. We should have an initiative that helps. Look at what happens when girls and women fell behind. We had Title N. We had, you know, a cultural movement. We had me too. We had times up. We had all of these things that came along. And for guys, they feel like they're being left behind. So, this is um outwardly men will say, "We should support men." Inwardly, when it happens one-on-one, men see a man who's struggling a lot of the time as kind of a bit icky and a little bit of an unreliable ally. Women see women that are struggling and men see women that are struggling as this is something precious. This is something that we need to look after. We should uphold them. The women are wonderful effect. When men see other men struggling, there is a little bit of a sense of well, we're part of a coalition, but we're also part of a competition as well. and the fact that this guy's falling behind a little bit, maybe that moves me up a little bit in the status ranking. Perhaps that means that they're not as tough and they wouldn't be a part of my coalition. I wouldn't go on the hunt with that person. So, it's a very strange This article was really brought it into land. Do you know? >> Yeah, I can find it and send it to you. >> I'll send it to I would love it if you send it to me. It's fantastic. And it's I'd never seen any any guy talk about the fact that men are not prepared to show up for other men in the way that women are prepared to show up for women. And even men are prepared to show up for women. Guys do not have quite the same level. And even the ones that outwardly talk about we should change the system and there needs to be more funding and we should have all of this. when the rubber meets the road interpersonally, guys just >> they treat they treat struggling men with suspicion. >> Yeah, it's um I mean it's very interesting. Um I often think you know the word loser doesn't exist in the feminine and the word emasculated doesn't exist in the feminine. And I don't know if they treat it with suspicion as I think sometimes they react to it with a certain fear. It's it's it's the man you don't want to be. It's the man you you're afraid of becoming you know and part of the same thing that I said masculinity hard to acquire easy to lose. If I am with a loser, I actually begin to fear consciously or not for that matter what I could lose to or how I could get there, how I could be there at the bottom of the pale. And um when I go to men's groups, I have attended quite a few men's groups where I'm alone with 60 men for three days and watch how they work with each other. I I have to say it is when they show up for each other, it's it's moving beyond. And sometimes I think of myself, would I be as moved if I saw women show up for each other? And I this is to concur with what you say. I think of it differently because I don't see it as often, but I know it exists in the military. But I know it exists in in different societies that are, you know, the girls can be perfectly cruel to each other at a level that is just unmatched as well. So, but it's true that we don't see it as often. Men reaching out for each other, holding each other, weeping on each other's shoulder. I have seen a lot of fascinating studies for the military about that, dealing with grief. I mean risking one's life to save someone else who is wounded. I mean I think fundamentally we raise our men to be prepared to die and and that in itself doesn't make it so easy then to see men who struggle. >> I wonder how much the uh coalition and support that you're talking about there is because those men are on the same team. If you're in an army, if you're in a sports team, that's correct. >> I wonder whether men don't have that shared sense of unity right now, which means, well, why am I going to show up for the guy that even lives next door to me? I have nothing in common with him. >> We're not on the same team. There was a great a great study, Tracy Vancor from uh from Canada, you have probably seen this one. Um, female basketball players on the same team >> showed less physical affection to each other than male basketball players on opposing teams >> and how did they explain it? >> How did they explain it? How did they study it? >> Yeah. What what did they make of it? >> I think the issue that you have with women is that their uh status seeking and their status competition is covert, not overt. And if you are a man on the same team, if you've got a phenomenal player that you're a part of his group, you're kind of in the blast radius of his brilliance, right? You've got an amazing frontman, lead singer of a band, and you're just the dude that plays bass at the back. Well, you know, you're not the lead singer, but you get to go along with him, and this is pretty cool. And the same, you go on a hunt ancestrally. You've got the strong guy, and you've got the fast guy, and you've got the smart guy, and you're just like the helpful guy. you go, well, I'm not the strong or smart or fast one. >> But I'm with them. >> I'm getting pulled along with them. Isn't that great? The same. It is more zero sum in a a covert way for women, I think. And they are much more conniving, much more sophisticated with the way that they play status games. Uh I'm I thankful every day that I don't have to deal with that because I I'm totally not built to be a woman in many ways. And uh I think that the the challenge that you have with guys showing up for other guys is well what have we got in common? Why should I show up for you if I'm atomized and spending all my time on Netflix and on social media? Unless I I would bet guys that go to the same church or guys that play in the same sports team or guys that do the same. You almost need an excuse as a guy to support another guy. Whereas I don't think that you have that with women. I'm thinking I'm really thinking I think that it's a very interesting observation. Um what I will but I I I will I will I will concur with you. You know when it happens something magical goes on. I mean it's um when a guy falls into you know just collapses onto another one who holds him up especially around grief especially around grief because it we always tend to talk about the power the aggression but I think the pe the harder feelings are not those they're really grief sadness loss >> you know um and and and the weep that comes with that. Um, but I think we spent an enormous amount of time condensing the male repertoire around those issu feelings like we condense the female repertoire around issues of you know of aggression for that matter. That's would be a classic one. So every gender has its licensed language for what it is allowed to want, for what it is allowed to express, for how it is allowed to express it. And I think this is across the globe. It's different in different cultures, but every gender has a license. >> Like I'll give you a license in couples, right? Because that's a classic. It is the license of men when you're not allowed to experience or to dis to express the need for tenderness, for affection, for softness, for surrender. You know what do you do? You have one language that men can use to express any of those needs. It's called sex. You translate it into a vocabulary that is sexual. And through that sexual experience, you get to experience many of the needs and the feelings that are forbidden or disavowed in the male code. If people say all he wants is sex, they often are making a big mistake. All he wants is the things that sex enables him to experience that he doesn't have the permission to ask in other ways. What is the code for the woman? I don't know. No, the woman cannot ask for that. She needs to have five layers of relatedness to justify why she may want to have sex less she would be just a [ __ ] So she covers it and covers it exactly like the status games that you're talking about because her license is to ask for connection and for closeness and for intimacy and all that stuff. And when she's got all of that and the right conversation and the right communication and intimacy of the moment, then of course >> finally I can ask for sex. You know, and I think this has nothing to do with intrinsic men and intrinsic women. This is actually the the erotic scripts of men and women are not nearly at that different on this front. But the cultural code around it makes it very clear what is the language that each person is allowed to speak in. >> It's interesting when I think about this. It seems to me that the weakness shaming around men and the [ __ ] shaming around women primarily come from their own sex, not from the other sex. I think that men are primarily the enforcers of uh guys feeling scared about being weak. And I think that women are primarily the enforcers of women being scared about being too open sexually. Uh, you know, if you offered most men on the planet the opportunity for women to be more [ __ ] I would guess that most of them would probably take it. Uh, something something tells me that that it it is a a [ __ ] is a much bigger threat to a woman than she is to a man. Uh, she's a threat to a woman who is single and trying to find a mate. She's a threat to a woman who's coupled and has a partner that's trying to remain faithful. The same thing goes for guys that a weak man is maybe he's your coalitional partner, maybe he's the person that you work with, maybe he's the person that you rely on in your sports team or the person that you might need to lean on at some point. And uh yeah, we're we're not good compatriots of each other all the time. This thing that you just highlighted that the pressure from within is often stronger than actually how you are perceived on the other side is true for many many things. You know um somebody said to me recently that uh the leaders of the main monotheistic religions Moses, Muhammad and Jesus were all betrayers. They all were unfaithful to their own group and they paid the price you know. So it's a very interesting thing how we internalize the stuff and we become harsher than the very people who on the outside have created it. I think that this is such a profound observation but it it really expands way beyond just the dating stuff and the love stuff. It's really it's it's I am very interested in that. >> What do you make of this adversarial and tribal dynamic between men and women? You know, we can talk about the call coming from inside of the house, the fact that guys aren't showing up for guys and that women won't touch their basketball players the same way. What's driving men and women apart in the modern culture, do you think? >> Hola, I I I can only add a few thoughts. I mean, I I I think it's it's bewildering. I think um I would but I will say a few things for me because it it hasn't been a part of my experience. You know, I'm a I'm a 70s person. That was not our story. You know, I'm the generation with the pill and before AIDS. That was not our story. >> What a time to be alive. >> Very free, you know, to be in your 20s, you know, that was a total effort period of effervescence and exploration and all of that. And um I I that was not the way we thought of it as camps. That doesn't mean that that we didn't understand the reality of of men. We don't know. But there was there was more kindness, more empathy, more sympathy. But all in all, there was simply a lot more contact with each other. You know, I came here to the United States and I began to notice that they had women's night and men's night. And I just thought, why why don't you go at the night with to do the thing with the people that you know enjoy this the most? Why does it have to be segregated like this? I found this segregation really interesting. I found the segregation of the sports activities interesting. I found the segregations of the summer camps interesting. I I noticed this segregation all along. Now that doesn't mean that this is uniquely US problem. But there is something here that in Anglo societies that is that is more intense about that. Latin cultures have their own issue around all of this. It's not like there's there's nobody has a price here. We haven't yet found a society that we we can all model after. But it it became then exploited more and more it became, you know, young 5-year-old boys or six year old boys that had to hide that they were inviting girls to their birthdays. What is that about? You know, and on and on like this. So I think it it magnified it magnified because of the changes in society because of the challenges of boys in school because because there is 50 years of a women's movement in which women have had the opportunity to redefine their identity as women knowing that the lives of women will not change until the men come along >> and the men need to take on their own way of of redefining what it means to be a man and what mascul but not necessarily to do it based on the rejection and the hatred of women. What I will add though is that there is throughout history a major coming together between tribalism between the genders and rise of authoritarianism >> between the coming together of the genders and authoritarianism. No, genders split and polarize, >> right? >> When authoritarianism rises or more reverse, when authoritarianism rises, >> you know, does gender split? The first question that Juval Harari once asked me when we had a conversation together is why does authoritarianism or fascism start with sexual oppression and repression? Could be homophobia, could be it could be anything that smacks the feminine part of what lives in a man. So weakness is considered feminine. The reason weakness is so scary is not because it's weak, it's because it's considered feminine. And the rejection of the feminine that is at the core of how masculinity has often reinforced itself throughout history. This is we go back back back back to bring order to bring strength to bring structure to bring you know that's the coming together that exists each time every time you see fascism rising you see a complete split between men and women you see men wanting women back into the house you know you see women you know playing a version of it as you could have had a tri life conversation as much as we have a man keeping conversation. And it's an amazing thing to observe because each one has to go back into their kind of core box. The men go back into the box, the women go back into the box. Everybody is in place. No messiness here of people coming together, creating non-binary things, creating things that are more loose, more messy, more more, you know, all of that. It's it the we can go back all the way. It's been happening over and over. That's what fascinates me. >> Are there any examples from history? Any obvious examples from history? I mean national socialism for as a close one for sure. You know the Aryan code it was you know every every degenerate art that represented men and women dancing. No no no no the beautiful paintings is that everybody sitting around the table and she's serving the home-cooked food like a good fra line. This complete everybody takes back its place. Nobody challenges the received order. It's neat. It's clean. It's divided. And no and and it's controllable. It's controllable by the forces above. Nice. you know, and throughout throughout it's a it's a fascinating thing because what is considered degenerate is considered anything where masculinity softens itself and femininity gets a little bit too much power. When you know the men are long hair, the the men dressing in certain ways, the men piercing ears and this is all where's the man? Show me the dude, you know, >> how would you and of course and the women reverse, sorry, >> how would you square that circle in the modern world? Uh I know a lot of people say that we've got rising authoritarianism across the world, especially in the west. Uh I don't know if that's accurate by the definition, but I certainly see lots of people talking about it. Um and I also see there is a a push back. There is a tradife movement. And there are people just uh increasing rates of church attendance which I think is kind of a hearken back to that. It's more traditional. It's more rigid. But at the same time, we also have more acceptance of gay rights than we've ever had before. We've got more LGBT people than we've ever had before. We've got more trans youths and adults than we've ever had before. Uh it seems like both things are moving in opposite directions at the same time. I wouldn't say that we're seeing a roll back in terms of acceptance especially around um like some of the more progressive stuff. >> I mean I don't know if you look at uh at Russia as an example that is current um the homophobia and the rolling back of the LGBT presence and recognition. No, I think I think that whatever has been acquired is actually what some people find is what has made society lose its compass. This this is like messy, dirty. This men should be men, women should be at home, everybody should do what's expected and be and not it's it's what you describe is part of what is being seen as the problem. Now why does it happen? Because I do think that whenever there is massive technological shift breed from agriculture to industrial, from industrial to technological, from technological to AI, the men experience it as tremendously threatening >> because the shifts are so fast. And if you're just one generation above, it's really really scary because you you you don't know how to handle it, how to continue to provide, how to take care of your loved ones, etc., etc. >> And this plays into the usefulness conversation because men need to be useful. They're going to be displaced by this new, more useful technology more quickly than women. >> When men are threatened in their ability to provide and to protect, this whole system starts to go in place. That's one way of understanding it. And the tri and the tribalism is is the mechanism for that, you know. It's not just trad. It's a whole kind of a dress with a pastoral thing and she has like zero ambition. It's wonderful. Like the only ambition is to, you know, pluck the avocado and and it's it's very pastoral. It's incredibly oldstanding stories that when you know how many boys are raised by hardworking single mothers these days. I mean and and the ma the some of the biggest entrepreneurs we find that's their story. And they said I'm going to I'm going to make it. I'm going to make and I'm going to take care of her and I'm going to make sure that she doesn't have to hold two jobs. And the drive comes from the very witnessing of what it's been like to raise to. And I think that if if there's almost a 50% divorce rate, >> that means that there's almost a 50% rate of boys growing up with moms alone, seeing their dads and everything. >> Let me give you let me let me give you this. You mentioned you mentioned about some uh ugly examples from history. Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, and Mao Zadong all shared at least one thing in common. They hated their fathers. Remarkably, all three seem to have loved their mothers, and Hitler and Mao saw themselves in alliance with their mother against their father. So, good fathers may be able to stop world wars in that regard. >> I mean, basically what we're saying is that there is a real challenge for many men when they say, "I don't want to be like this guy. either this brute, either this loser, either this drunk, either this absent. I want to be different. I want to be better. And why not? They should they should be given this opportunity. Many women that living lives, I mean, look at me. My grandmother, where was she? You know, I'm living I'm I'm two generations away and I I have a completely different reality. I want the man to have that opportunity, too. you know, I want and that, by the way, has to take place in community. This is not something that men deal with alone, you know, at their computer. It's really demands solidarity. It demands reinforcement. It demands seeing people do this without thinking, you know, that's embarrassing, you know. It demands carrying your baby. Lots of things that that have a lot of things have changed, you know. I mean, I remember the first times that men were brought in to watch the birth of their child. >> That didn't always happen, >> man. No, no, no. My parents generation. No, didn't happen. I don't think every man should be in the birthing room, mind you. Or at least should stand exactly where she stands like most European countries, you know, make sure that you have the same view. But this was a this was a beautiful revolution. whoever wants it should do it. But what it said to finally invite the M because it was it came along with the beginning of the thinking about modern fatherhood. The birth of fatherhood which came of course at the same time as women became more independent economically is that he didn't have to just define himself by his material contributions and he could also be an emotional unit and it's great. I mean, according to me, for whatever that's worth. >> Yeah. Talking about you mentioned divorce there. I read uh a piece from you recently where you said the real reason people cheat isn't always about what we assume. It's not just about lust or boredom or one too many margaritas. It's about something far more unsettling and sad. A sense of deadness in the relationship. What's deadness? What is deadness? complacency, neglect, estrangement, lack of laughter, lack of play, lack of curiosity. um management inc 99% of the time. Um criticism, indifference, um if I'm here or if I'm not here, does it make a difference? Does it matter? Except you may not want to be alone, but that doesn't mean you really want to be with me. Um all of these are expressions of deadness, lifelessness, loss, loss of vitality, loss of vibrancy, loss of imagination. It's a lot of things that I mean interestingly and you know I wrote a whole book on on infidelity after 10 years of studying this state of affairs and the one word that I heard all over the world when people would talk about their affairs and I'm there's a ton of different kinds of affairs and I'm in no way romanticizing nor approving nor condoning nor encouraging. Just want to put that out there before I even say a word. But people just said, "I felt alive." And the truth of a a therapist office is that we don't work with the majority of the people we meet are not chronic philanderers nor sexual addicts nor narcissistic pricks. We see people who have been or narcissistic pricks. If you want on the other side, it doesn't matter. But what we see is people who've often lived, you know, rather committed monogous lives for decades, 10, 20, five years, and then one day they cross a line that they never thought that they would cross themselves. And so for a glimmer of what? Why would people try to risk losing everything they worked for so long and so hard for what? And that's when I began to think, there's more here. You know what is this deadness that people are referring to that would make people act out acts of exuberant defiance to the point of really losing their pants and skirts whatever this I'm not this is not a gendered story at all and so um I got very very interested in what are relational betrayals and um uh and how do we address them and how do we create an approach that is more human and more helpful than the polarizing. And you're going to hear that theme for me all the time. It's like I um it's not difficult to yell at each other. >> That's a great point. It's very difficult to be patient with each other though, to be understanding, to take a little bit of time, to take a breath before you respond. That's much more difficult. >> Yes. To tolerate the other person's pain. lot of lot of things to to really you ask me you open the conversation by saying why do some couples succeed and why don't they and what is the fundamental incompatibility I think the most profound incompatibility is the ability to live with an other difference much of relationships is managing difference and other person who stands there sees the same thing as you and has a very different experience of it. How can that be? You know, and the ability to to to really and then be curious about this person who is other, different, not you, not an extension of you, not there to make you feel good about you, just is whoever they are. And how do you come to accept that? It's called differentiation, you know, in a relationship that you know that they perceive, experience, respond to the same situation differently and that that not be threatening to you. >> What are the early signs of deadness or what are the ones that maybe people, you know, >> recognize? You know, there's one that I often think is an interesting one, right? You go, you have dinner with a bunch of friends, you talk, your partner starts talking about the movie they saw, the music they listen to, the book they read, and you have no idea who's talking. You know, none of it. And especially these days, it's in the computer, it's in the phone. You don't even see a book on the table. So, you know, or not even a a Netflix, you know, when you used to get a cassette, something culture was visible. Now it's like so but they talk and they have interesting things to say and people listen to them and then you go into the car and it's like who's going to the supermarket tomorrow morning or who's picking up Joey or did you call your mom or like nothing and you just say why don't you continue the conversation that made this person actually interesting to you? >> You were alive there but you're dead here. Yes, curiosity is erotic. When I talk about erotic, I'm not talking about sex and turnons and excitement. I'm talking about a fundamental sense of aliveness. You can have sex and feel absolutely nothing. Women have done that for centuries. It's not the act itself is not doesn't tell you anything about the experience. So it's really how do people feel alive and and that means you can do very little and feel a lot just because you're imagining because you're you know the kiss that you imagine giving as P says is as powerful as the actual kiss just use your imagination. So what may what is deadness is when people have kind of nothing to say to each other, don't engage with each other. It doesn't have to be conversation, but some something that says I want to reach out to you on the other side of the bridge like knock who's there. I've seen that in relationships, my friends relationships where they've turned up to dinner and, you know, they are one person when their partner's around and they're another person when their partner's not there. Uh, you know, even the presence of their partner at dinner. And maybe part of it is that sense that God, if I let myself loose and become my true self with my friends in the presence of this other person, they're going to feel like they're going to know that there's something up. they're going to know that I don't feel that excited to speak to them, that I'm not that curious about them, that I have these thoughts and this level of energy that I just struggle to bring to this relationship. So, I guess given that those are the those are the early warning signs. >> So, I sometimes say to people if pe if you brought 10% of the creative imagination or if people brought 10% of the creative imagination that they bring to their affairs into their primary relationships, their life would be very different. It's an it's it's very interesting how people become lazy. >> Is that a conscious choice? Is that is that something that people can consciously step in to do? Or is passion something which is bottom up and it's emergent and you're it it sort of comes out of you. >> But no, because love is a verb that you have, you know, it's not a permanent state of enthusiasm. You you practice it. This is an Eric from idea, you know. It's not then I wasn't the original think of that. It's like you you it's a verb. You conjugate it in multiple tenses and all the time you do things that express this. If if I play a sport, if you play a sport, you it comes with a whole ritual. You get your what what sport do you do? What what's your thing? >> Cricket. Cricket. Like a good British guy. >> Yes. Yes. So you you get your stick, you get your you know you have your clothes, you have your there's a whole ritual that says I'm going to play, you know, and nobody says it should be spontaneous. It should be passionate and just kind of sweep you. It's it's a very interesting kind of way that we have about thinking that there is a surge, there is a force. It feels like you're fearless in those moments and you're you're ready to, you know, to to embrace life with a vengeance kind of thing. But truth is that I often have said to people, the person who comes home to your partner, to your spouse is absolutely not the person who is the other one is meeting. And now you want to tell me that your wife is boring or your husband is boring. >> I mean, seriously, you are boring, too. Well, they were interesting enough to be able to get this person to sleep with them, >> you know. So, it's uh you know, I think I think we could have two hours only on the subject of infidelity because it's it's a very powerful and and painful and destructive and and and also repairing, you know, experience in people's in people's lives. Um I Interestingly, after having spent four decades pretty much, you know, researching couples and families, I began to think about other pairs. I got interested in other forms of partnerships, you know, friendship. I'm deeply interested in friendship. These days, I'm interested in creative partners. I'm interested in co-founders. I'm interested in parents and adult children. I I I'm interested in in the concept itself of pairs because pairs are rarely just two. There's often a third one lurking somewhere. The lur the third one can be the previous manager. It can be the parent. It can be you know it's not not just in the concept of infidelity. Do you have thirds? I've heard you talk about this. I looked at the research as well and I couldn't work out what was going on. Women get bored with monogamy more quickly than men. Can you try and explain? Is that is that borne out? Is that borne out in your experience? And and what's the mechanism? Why why is that the case if it's the case? >> I know I've said that sentence here and there just to catch people's attention and because it's so counterultural. Um but it actually is um quite true in the sense that here's how I to understand it. Um it comes from the research of Dr. Marta Mayana uh who's one of who was one of the main researchers on female sexuality. Um, and the idea was that we tend to look at male sexuality as unprompted, always ready to go, in search of an outlet in perpetual motion, hard as steel, you know, enduring forever da and as if, and this is I'm going to say it for men and for women, as if me the interior state of the man doesn't influence their sex. life if they're depressed, if they're feeling competent, if they're if they're lonely, if you know if if they're anxious. I mean, of course, the inner life of men influences their sexuality. And so I debunked that and then I said, but let's look at women. What do women do? They actually don't want things sexually that that different from men. But we don't know what women really want because throughout history, women haven't done what they wanted. They have done what kept them safe and therefore what kept them safe was to not ask for much to just kind of take it what take whatever it was. When in fact with female sexuality is often seen as more subjective as more contextual, not necessarily rooted in desire per se, but often in willingness in the story, in the romance, in the plot. less mechanical, >> no, more contextual. I think it's the story. It's more driven by the plot. This is why women can be 10 years with a man and then 10 years with a woman and back to another 20 years with a man because the story, the relationship is what often will drive the attraction and the sexuality rather than something that is more fixed in that sense. So, it's more flexible in that sense. is more fluid and therefore it responds to the context to the story. Is it interesting? Is it going to be different? Is it about me? You know, in my work with straight couples, I hear a lot of men who tell me, "Nothing turns me on more than to see her turned on." It's great. I have rarely heard a woman say that to me about her husband. >> Oh, that's interesting. Nothing turns me on more than to see him turned on on occasion. That's her thing. No, what turns her on is what's happening to her, not what's happening to him. If she's not into it, he can stand there with the biggest turn on under the sun. It doesn't matter to her. She's not into it. >> Isn't that interesting that sexually both the man and the woman are pointing toward the woman? >> Yes. And that's true in watching porn too. The man watch the woman and the woman watch the woman. So what Mara said was she needs more risque, more imagination. It's not that she doesn't have an interest in sex, it's that she doesn't have an interest in the sex she can have after 10 years or whatever with the same person because what she the same person who is extinguished in one place wakes up perfectly fine somewhere else. What she needs is the active engagement. She doesn't want to just do it. She does. She wants him to not just want it. She wants him to want her. What turns her on is what happens to her. So what what's what is the main obstacle for her is the fact that she finds herself often in a in a caretaking mode. She takes care of kids. If she has kids, she takes care of him. She takes she thinks about the well-being of others. And what really unleashes the desire is when she actually can stop thinking and worrying about others and focus entirely on herself and her own mounting sensations. Why does he say nothing turns me on more than to see her turned on? Because if she's turned on, he doesn't have to worry about the predatory fear. If she's into it, he's not hurting her. Oh, that it's like uh an identifier that everything else is okay. >> Yeah, if she's into it, he doesn't have to. He's not forcing her. He's not hurting her. She's into it. That takes care of the predatory fear. Most guys don't want to be predators. They want somebody who is totally into it with them. I suppose the reason that that doesn't work in reverse is that guys are much more mechanical. that it's not as much of a reliable signal that everything is okay just because I'm aroused as a guy because lots of things can be really not okay and I can still be pretty aroused. The same thing isn't true at the same level for women. So, um it's a reliable signal. It's a reliable signal from her that yeah, I feel pretty safe. I think I've this relationship is good. You by virtue of that are also good. You are useful. Would you make me feel safe? So on and so forth. >> Yes, it's more it's more than I feel safe. It's I know I am not hurting her. I am pro, you know, we are playing together. It's extremely important. The predatory fear to me is one of the primary obstacles that men have to free themselves from in order to be able to let go and to be open and present. And the the b releasing the burden of caretaking is the primary obstacle for women. So when I say women get bored with monogamy, it means that for women to remain interested in sex, they need to feel that it's interesting, fun, different, surprising, and not the usual. Now that doesn't mean she doesn't she's not partly responsible for doing some of that. But it it really says when women stop being interested in sex. It's not just because their sexual desire is lesser for women. It's because they respond to the context and the context is not nearly interesting enough to remain interested in sex. That's the th the thorough explanation of this oneliner. >> It is. No, it is thorough. It's very interesting. I saw a study that said um women typically believe their marriages have around the right frequency of sex whereas men wished for more around about twice as much sex as they were having. This suggests that many couples adjust their sexual frequency to the lower rate of desire by the wife. I thought that was really really interesting. >> That is true. That is that is accurate. When I say true mean it's accurate but I also think that we remember what we said before. Men often thinks that sex is the only way to experience certain types of intimacy, closeness, tenderness, affection that therefore they want sex twice as often. I think if they could experience it in other ways and broader >> they would need sex less. >> No, not need it. They would just have a more a broader vocabulary. They would have a broader repertoire. It wouldn't be s, you know, it wouldn't have to be sex in order for it to to that. It's that it's they could be pleased in many other ways is what I'm saying and and felt good. >> You mentioned before about some of the changing dynamics, modern world stuff, women being uh no longer financial prisoners of their husband being able to have a little bit more agency or a lot more agency inside a relationship before a relationship. Um we talked before about Title N. Um women in education, boys maybe struggling more. You got to sit down and be quiet and do your homework and highlight like a good little boy >> and sit >> sit the whole day. I mean, come on, you have testosterone. You need to move. I mean, it is a challenging time for everybody. But I think that what is demanded from the the transformation for what men have done in terms of how they use their hands, how they use their physical prowess, how they use their bodies, how they move, and now they have to just sit there in class. It's a ch. It's a ch Well, I mean, you know, this is the whole ADHD diagnosis is not is not an accurate way to pathize normal boy behavior, right? Like this this is exactly where this is laid to the feet of. But my point is another change that we've seen has been the introduction of women into the workplace. >> Yeah. >> Uh the women into the workplace that men are in. Um, what have you come to sort of learn about how your perspective on understanding how men and women relate intimately? What is the perspective that you now have about how men and women relate in the workplace? What are the the similarities that you're seeing between those two things? >> I think I'm going to actually answer it in a less gendered way. I think there are four primary pillars of relationships in the workplace and they apply to all and this is true in the romantic sphere as well as in the workplace. I think that what makes relationships possible is a sense of trust. So four pillars, one is trust. Do you have my back? Can I rely on you? Will you not betray me? Will you not lie? Will you not push yourself ahead of me at my expense? I can't think of this in a gendered way. I think this is true for anyone who works. And I like that. I like the fact that it is it's bigger. It's a it's a it's a dimension that is just, you know, trust suffers from a lot of definitional vagueness. It's very hard to theoretize about trust and to define it. Is it a condition? Is it a feeling? Is it an outcome? Who knows? But everybody knows when they feel it. And um the next dimension that is also is the feeling of belonging. You know, am I a part of this? Am I thought of when I'm not here? Do I have a place? Trust is also can I disagree with you without having to fear negative consequences. So it also makes the the trust is one of the selves against conflict and and and u disagreement. Um not disagreement this conflict. And then the third thing is recognition. Do you value me? Is my work valued? Are my contributions valued? Can't think of it in gender terms either. I think women have certain issues around that that are different from men. But I think that the need in and of itself is an universal need. If you're going to work, you if you're going to do something, contribute, show up, you you want to feel that no, somebody's noticing this. Am I visible? You know, some women think men get get more of that. They get it easier. They have to prove it less. you know that you know a mediocre guy can often pass when all of these lines which we've we've heard left and right I I think to me what matters is not who wins who has the title of greater victim who suffers more the thing is that these are human dimensions that are essential for relationships in the workplace and the last one is collective resilience and I love the fact that it's seen as collective resilience because I think mistakenly We often talk about resilience as if it's an individual person's qualities, traits that live inside of them and that they're able to draw upon in order to resist and to face adversity. Collective resilience is how does a group come together in the face of challenge, crisis, adversity, change and know how to tap into the social resources together rather than fracture and start blaming each other. And I think what is interesting in the workplace at this point is not so much what is different for men and women I mean that is interesting plenty but it's really how much relationships in the workplace have become no longer soft skills but hardcore bottom line and this is related to AI and to the fact that this is the last frontier of what humans have that is that is different. So suddenly there's a surge of thinking about what makes relationships in the workplace. Of course, what makes good relationships is connected to what makes a good culture and what makes a good culture is related to what makes higher performance. So there's a straight line and my the way I developed this was in a partnership between my experience as a therapist and and in my work with relationships but together with culture amp which is an HR platform and we had like 1.5 billion data points like I've never had evidence like this like I'm therapist you know I can count the people in my office I don't I don't do evidence-based I do clinical evidence this gave me a whole different entry into give it to me on a global scale what are the important pieces that everyone needs and I love the fact that these were gender neutral dimensions that are experienced in gender specific ways. >> That's interesting. I mean we're certainly seeing a change in workplace dynamic. the working from home world that everybody thought was awesome because I only need to put pajama pants on and a shirt and I can my kitchen's next door and no one really knows if I'm not on Slack and I can just do Zoom calls. I think people are sick of that. I think people are so sick. So, you're right. These soft skills are now going to be the uh hard lines that people rely on when it comes to growing a business because workplace cultures back. You don't have a culture on >> growing a business. It's also I mean how do you start how do you start when you've you you start with doing online onboarding with online interviewing with online you know where are you going to learn I mean I'm thinking any one of us who went from in person to online we went retrofit we had internalized all the skills but the every generation that comes and that has never known in person >> yeah the remote native worker My god. Because it's not just if you work like that, you also don't go out of your house to shop for food, neither to exercise, neither even to meet friends. You know, you become contactless. And when you become contactless, you become atrophied. And then you can do as much longevity exercises as you want in your basement. But why would you want to live longer if you're miserable and lonely? >> Well, this is the support that people used to get from a job, right, when they went into the office. This also is why office romances exist that you're collaborating that you already have some of these pillars, right? You've got some trust. Well, this person being trustworthy, that's something that almost everybody wants in a partner. Oh, that's awesome. Oh, they make me feel like I belong. Oh, wow. That's that's pretty cool. Well, I feel like I'm part of their tri. Oh, they recognize me. Oh, that makes me feel like I, you know, and >> yes, >> between a world where workplace romances were disincentivized and discouraged a lot and then another world that came on top of it, not only had they been disincentivized and discouraged, but then you weren't even in the workplace anymore. So that was a real sort of one-two punch I think of your new world of work looking at the workplace and your existing world of work kind of coming into conflict with each other. >> I mean I think one of the words that is often not used but that is an important dimension of human existence is the power of transgression. breaking the rules. You know, kids do it when they go into places they're not supposed to go and adults do it when they have romances in the office. And people have people have breached rules. People have transgressed people that I think that we can study office romance or we can study the power of transgression. To do what you're not supposed to do gives people a sense of freedom. And when it's done playfully, it's one thing. When it's done hurtfully, it's a very different thing. But the power of transgression has existed since humankind was invented or came in came into, you know, orbit. It's not it's not a new you can disincentivize anything you want. You know, the church disincentivized masturbation for a long time, too. I've never seen that necessarily. [Laughter] you know they did it with they did it with with more guilt but you know so when you go back and you ask me about these pillars so then I thought okay if these are the things that really are important dimensions of relationships in the workplace how can I help that how can I bolster that boost it like what would be a tool and that's when you know the thing we were talking about what is the what is one of the ways that we have helped not polarize has been through play. By playing with people who are different from you as kids and then later on play has often been a place where taking risk is safe and fun and fun. It's safe because it's contained sorry within the rules of the game and it's fun. So I decided I'm going to create tools that are playful, that are going to boost people's skills relationally. >> You made a card game, right? >> Yes, I did the card game. I also did the podcast. Where should we begin? I mean, everything I've done is been in that direction. I've had one thought. The quality of your relationships ultimately is what determines the quality of your life. You can have a very interesting job. If you're dealing with people who make it miserable for you and you can't sleep at night, it doesn't matter. I mean, the quality of your relationships, you want meaningful thriving relationships at every level and in every sphere. So what can I do to improve that to support to support that and to do it in a way that is not didactic, not scolding, not tribal, not even universal, but playful. >> I love it. Esther Perrell, ladies and gentlemen, Esther, you're you're fantastic. I really really appreciate you. It's been a lot of fun. Where should people go to keep up to date with all of the stuff that you've got going on, to play your card game, to do everything else? Eststerparel.com card game is where should we begin a game of stories one for your life for your friends your family etc and one for work so it's called where should we begin at work podcast where should we begin on every platform where you listen and if they follow you and you tell them to come to me then we will meet >> Esther I appreciate you thank you >> it's a pleasure thank you so much >> congratulations you made it to the end of the episode. And if you want more, well, why don't you press right here? Come on.