How Lee Sung Jin Turned His Darkest Moments Into 'BEEF'

letting go is actually the thing. >> Yeah. >> But we we keep forgetting. [music] >> Le Jin >> Le Jin the creator of the hit Netflix show Beef. >> He has other television products in development with A24 [music] FX and Lionsgate. >> You've expanded your aperture and you're tackling like much deeper existential questions about what it is to be human. >> Danny says in season 1, you know, rock [music] bottom can be your trampoline, which was, you know, just ripped from the headlines of my life. And I just started [music] re-examining everything like just intentionality like what's my intention as a friend, as [music] a son, you know, as a writer. I'm actually sort of glad everything happened the way it did cuz you know what a privilege it is to get to take paint and then, you know, make art out of it. [music] What would the 12-year-old version of you think if he knew that one day he was going to be writing X-Men and getting Emmy nominations? It's not as if like from day one you were thinking you were going to be a writer and a filmmaker. >> No, >> this is not really the trajectory. >> It certainly was not. I mean, when I was 12, I was just studying for the PSATs, you know. Uh, I was very, you playing violin, you know, hours and hours every day. That's why my neck leans this way. Constantly have to correct it that way. >> Yeah. I had no idea that this was in store. Um, I I do feel very very blessed. What stays the same though is like um you know at 12 I was also thinking very similar existential questions and um there those questions are still here uh haven't really been answered. [laughter] >> Uh and so it's like uh yes like I don't think 12-year-old me would expect the hamster wheel that I'm on to look the way it does. But then I think 12-year-old me would be like, "Oh, you're still uh still don't have the answers, huh?" You know, >> what do your folks think about what you're doing? >> They're very, very proud now. Um I think in the beginning they were very confused. You know, when I graduated from the University of Pennsylvania with an economics degree, I was supposed to be investment banker and I just said, "Sorry, I'm moving to New York with no plan." and uh they were rightfully concerned and I was a mess in my 20s. I was just like a tumble weed just kind of being blown around and um back then there was a lot of concern and worry. Uh now like so so proud. Um you know but still my parents like my dad watched season 2 and texted me uh hey good job but um that final scene was too long. Uh you should have >> he's [laughter] giving you notes. Yeah. He was like, "This shot should have been this much shorter and then you should have cut to this and then this and then it would have been great." >> Yeah. I was like, "Well, that that it's like the show's on the platform. It's aired, so I can't like remove it and and apply those changes, but uh you know, so they're they they're still my parents, but they are extremely extremely proud." Yeah. >> Uh true or false? Your dad designed the first supercomput >> for Samsung? Yes. >> For Samsung? Yeah. Uh he was a professor for most of uh you know our our lives and um there was a brief period where we moved back to Korea uh for my elementary school because he had gotten a job at Samsung and uh he was tasked with designing the first supercomput. And um we he gave up that job to move us all back to United States because of how bad this public school system was back then where >> they hadn't reformed the school system. So the teachers would beat you every single day like like actual beat. Like there was one teacher who made you do push-ups and while you're doing push-ups would punch you in the face and uh you would stay after hours and hold a chair above your head and if your elbows went down they'd come with a metal ruler and just slap your wrist really hard. You have to straighten out. So that was every single day from uh third, fourth, fifth grade. And I was coming home with like bruises and just uh and um and so my parents uh decided to that that this Samsung path wasn't worth it and they would move us back to the United States which I'm very very thankful for. Obviously Korea has since greatly reformed their education system to the other extreme where teachers are committing suicide now because the students bullied them so hard. Uh so overcorrected there, but um you know my dad likes to lament that uh all the heads of Samsung were people that were under him when he was there. And what could have been? >> Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, two insights. First, the fact that your dad would make that sacrifice for his family, for you, uh, and your sibling, your one sister, your one sister, >> when he was, you know, in such a prestigious situation, you know, speaks to his character and what he values as important. >> Um, and secondarily, for you to then go your own way, like you're on this track. Like I'm sure it was heavy to have a dad who was that accomplished and I don't know what the environment was like in your home but you know you strike me as a as a stver. I mean you got into pen and it's not unusual that you would be considering investment banking and all of that but to say no I'm not going to do that takes a degree of self-confidence and self-nowledge you know to believe in yourself to think like I'm going to step off this path. I've been given, you know, the privilege to attend this university and I can see how my life is going to play out if I go this traditional route and I'm going to take the, you know, the the road less traveled. >> I think in hindsight it can look like that, but in the moment it certainly didn't feel like it, you know. Uh it was weird like I was never making those decisions out of self-confidence. It felt very uh like insecure and sad in the moment, you know. I was just I just remember like being in college and just just feeling such heavy melancholy cuz this was not I didn't feel like myself, you know. >> And I uh I think this whole journey for me has been like I think also part of it is being a Korean-American immigrant. Um, I was born in Korea, moved over here, moved back and forth, and there's a just you you really become from minute one uh accustomed to looking around, copying and mimicking and never really feeling like yourself and that that becomes the norm. And uh in college, as I'm about to do investment banking, I'm starting to feel like this isn't me. And so I was just kind of chasing this like >> sadness that uh was also the driving force which in hindsight feels very confident but in the moment it was just like stumbling uh I had no idea what direction I was going I just knew that I didn't feel good and I think even as I found writing it's same thing happened where the early part of my career I was just mimicking what was in like I my first job was on Always Sunny um in Philadelphia in 2008 hate and at the time like comedy was so in like hard comedy like very UCB like you know uh a joke every piece of dialogue and so I would try to mimic that. Um, and I ended up on a on a network multicam for three seasons that just completely destroyed my mental health because I was it just felt like I'm here and the person walking around in life is over here and it's that it's just getting stretched more and more and more. And I could tell the rubber band was going to snap, but I was just didn't know when. And then I think in 20 December 13th, 2013 is when it like snap snapped. And um that was like my like you know big brush with um you know suicide and ended up in the hospital >> and and and but you know like Danny says in season one you know rock bottom can be your trampoline and he says it sort of jokingly but >> uh or we wrote it jokingly. He's saying it seriously but uh >> uh it is very true like that. I'm so glad it finally snapped. I feel very grateful that it I am still here. But um that really became uh a needed clean slate of okay like if I'm going to participate in this reality then like why am I here? And I just started reexamining everything like just intentionality like you were saying um how we started this conversation. um what's my intention as a friend a as a as a son you know as a writer and started therapy started really looking into you know self-help and um yeah it all started from that moment >> it really is the hero's journey of Lee Sanjen I mean you you were living progressively more and more out of alignment with your true selfm adorning this mask, trying to fit in and figure out your way and how you could operate in this world that you were attracted to, >> but not confident or integrated enough to actually express your authentic self. Yes. >> Like thinking the only way to survive is to kind of costume myself like all these other people around me. But do that long enough and you're going to you're going to reach a crisis point. And in your case, this bottom really is this incredible lever for for transformation and and and growth. And this is something I think about a lot too. Like these painful moments, like you don't wish them on anybody, but they really it's like the universe, the seas part or the universe puts you in a place and you suddenly have a degree of willingness to make these changes and do the scary thing. And as a result of doing that work and clearly you've done a lot like it's reflected in you know in your work. It's like you couldn't write what you wrote without like being this deeply introspective person who's gone through hard times and come out the other side and has a understanding of what it feels like to live outside of your your own body and your own life and >> and what it means to like come home. We're all just trying to come home to ourselves, right? And when you do, it's like lightning strikes and this beautiful work of art emerges from this that's a reflection of the journey that you went on to be the kind of person who could carry that resonance and that message. >> Well, thank you very much. I I try to I try to remind myself of of of what you just said often because I sometimes it gets easy to like lament like the negative things that have happened, you know, but then like you're saying, I'm like, "Oh, wait." Like I'm actually sort of glad everything happened the way it did cuz >> you know what a privilege it is to get to take pain and then you know make art out of it. Uh but then it does get sad too cuz like you know I have a 16-month old daughter and I look at her and she's so perfect and her personality and essence is just there intact from minute one. And then I'm like, "Oh my gosh." Like, I want to all I want to do in life is to do everything in my power to protect that essence so it never gets chipped away at so that she never uh has to feel like I did. And um like I so want to protect that and then then then like in therapy you get angry because then you're like how my instinct is so strong to to protect that. like how did >> how did so many people not you know and uh for me but then like you're saying like that I just have to shift my my prism of which I'm looking at that which is okay that's that's great that I feel that for my daughter but then for me for whatever reason everything happened in in a certain sequence and it's allowed me to do what I do >> uh and that's that's my path >> uh and and and um you know trying to find uh acceptance and gratefulness for it Uh but yeah, it's tough. It's uh it does eb and flow between those two points on a on a daily basis. >> Yeah, these these people who created challenges for you are actually your teachers. You know, they were giving you the lessons you needed to learn in order to become the person you are today. And on some level, you could choose to see it through the lens of you having chosen this experience in this lifetime of the kind of difficulties that you had to go through so that you could transcend, become the person that you've be that you've become more fully embodied, more self-actualized so that you can parent your child and spare >> them whatever generational trauma you inherited and you get to interrupt that pattern. >> I hope so. >> Yeah. I mean that's that's the whole game, you know, I think. >> Yeah, 100%. It has been I mean, one of the most rewarding parts of of being a parent has been that feeling of, oh wait, like we're breaking a cycle here. >> That's really really cool, >> you know. Um and uh yeah I I I and maybe that is why like life is the way it is where it's just designed to continually rebirth and we you know like uh we certainly aren't going to figure it out in our one lifetime. >> Yeah. The key for you is making sure the pendulum doesn't swing too far in the other direction and then she inherits all kinds of other issues out of your neurosis of like not wanting to be your parent. You >> totally I'm like >> and it's [laughter] inevit it's all it's also like in the sumps of it all. Like it's rigged. Like it doesn't matter how good your intentions are, what you do. like there will be some reason why she's going to go to a therapist in 20 years and complain about how this didn't happen right or that was wrong and you made you made the mistake that you know harmed her. >> Yeah. It almost feels like I'm curious what you think having um spoken to so many people with different opinions. At the end of the day, do you think that we actually have free will? >> Well, the neuroscientists will will tell you that we don't. Um, I think it's very difficult for our small brains to accept that uh that there's a good chance that we don't have free will. Like it's just an intolerable concept. Yeah. >> You know, that makes life very difficult. Uh, but the scientific studies seem to say that this is the case and I try not to think about that too much. Or maybe I think that like if you think of it in the broadest context, uh I heard you tell a story like I think somebody was asking you about death or identity and you told the story of this octopus that had its arm severed off and you know the octopus's limbs each having many brains. >> Yeah. Uh, and that limb just goes off and is having its experience, [laughter] you know, not realizing that there's a larger brain that it was attached to. >> Yeah. >> And I think consciousness operates the same way. >> You know, I think that that we have this sense of individuation, but in truth, I think consciousness, I'm becoming increasingly convinced, is fundamental to the universe. >> And we're like these kind of extruded biological forms that are are like inhabiting a means to have an experience for a short period of time before being absorbed into the oneness of consciousness. >> And so if you think of free will or the lack of free will in that context, it it doesn't really seem as relevant. >> Yeah. It almost doesn't matter. Yeah. Yeah. Because technically that arm doesn't have free will, but then it does. >> Yeah. >> So it's a it's a Zen Coen, [laughter] I think, right? Like we have to live as if we have free will. >> Yeah. >> Even if we don't. >> Yeah. >> It doesn't matter. We still have to behave accordingly, I guess. [laughter] >> Do you have a theory on why beef touched this cultural nerve and and why it's become so successful and popular? You know, I think one something that I'm realizing as I get older is like the more specific you can get about, you know, your experience or the experience of those people around you, uh, oddly the more specific you get, the more universal it seems to travel. >> And I think largely because we're sort of the same thing experiencing itself. So, uh, then like you know, you're sitting at home and you hear a thought that you only thought you had yourself. You're like, "Wait, that's me." Um, so I think a little bit of it is that and then I think with beef we specifically call it young and shadow work amongst ourselves and my collaborators and I. I think for whatever reason uh there there are not a lot of avenues culturally to do like young and shadow work at large and so maybe that's also part of it but um uh but I'm not sure uh to be honest >> the young stuff is central like that just leaps off the screen for me because I spent a lot of time thinking about that and you know I was reflecting on like why why is this like show so resonant? It's as if you're like a forensic pathologist performing an autopsy on culture, identity, ethnicity, capitalism, you know, the generational divide and the specificity with which you kind of construct these characters and their identities with respect to their um, you know, cultural heritage or their socioeconomic status or their generational status is so specific and it's like, oh, I know that person, you know, and that's the universality piece. to it. >> Oh, thank you so much. >> Yeah, we can we can just feel that and it draws us in and we feel connected. Yeah, I think you know the beef out of all the things I've ever worked on um it's so born out of collaboration and I mean just hours and hours of conversations with the actors like >> you know I think my first Zoom with Oscar Isaac was I think like three and a half hours long >> and we just went there like you know it it was uh very deep and vulnerable and and and I think all those conversations s kind of are the textures that you can put on top of the story math, so to speak. Like as writers, we can like craft like the right narrative core progression. >> Uh but in terms of the textures you put on it, that has to feel real. And there's uh that's that's why so many of the textures I I don't try to imagine myself or the writers do. like we have honest conversations with our collaborators and that's the that's really the gold. >> The degree of intentionality is off the charts. Like I was listening to an interview with you and you were talking about shot composition and you know like the dirty and clean like way that you approach like where is the camera landing in the sequence of how this kind of emotional arc is playing out like why are you putting it on this person and what else is in the frame and the level of consideration that goes into that uh is just like I think beyond what the average person would ever imagine but it's operating on the unconscious level. Oh, thank you. Uh, yeah, we uh we definitely have a lot like a lot of talk about intention because I think that's uh that's really the key. Uh >> uh I've always said that like you know I think I think us as humans we think we're really good at hiding our intention but it's like pretty bald, [laughter] >> you know. And so when it comes to film making, I think it's really important to have an intention. um or else the audience is going to feel the lack of or or the the muddiness of it if you're not crystal clear. >> Something unlocked for me years ago when um in in my writing uh when I realized that like music and storytelling are really the same. And uh it was this article that I had read where some university had fed its machine learning algorithm like hundreds of pieces of classic literature and AI discovered that we only tell stories in six or seven ways and it's like shapes like rise fall rise fall rise fall >> and then I was like wait that is the same thing that Vonagget used to talk about in his man in the whole graph which is essentially a rise man in theole fall and then a rise again >> and then I was started thinking well That's strange because the modern ear only really likes six to seven chord progressions. And then I was thinking about the big one that we all chase in like you know top 40 hits in church music. It's like a you know different iterations of G E minor CD G >> and that is G is a status quo. E minor is a fall and then CDD you're CD you're rising back up to where you started G which is literally like story circle like you know Joseph Campbell like hero's journey and uh that got me thinking oh wait like uh it really is just like pressing buttons to make you feel a certain way and you're creating these energetic shapes that for some reason our brains respond to. And >> for whatever reason, I think collectively we seem to have fallen in love with this, >> you know, this shape. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if that makes me feel uh better or worse about humanity. It's sort of like a, oh, we're we're very primitive beings that respond to stimuli in a very specific way. If you push this button, we're going to react this way. >> Yeah. which I think speaks thematically to the show as well because there's a lot of hand ringing around like why are these characters behaving badly but they're behaving badly based on early childhood traumatic experiences or systemic forces that are compelling them to behave in a certain way. Like if you were that person and had lived their life, you would be doing exactly what they're doing. >> Yes. That's right. >> You know, in the same way that we respond unanimously to a certain chord progression. Yeah. I mean, I think that's what's so hard about being born into a body is like suddenly without consent we are in this >> and and then now you and I are separate >> and then we are trained to believe that our like subjective lens and that voice inside is actually us >> and it's so hard to see outside yourself and and like you're saying those systemic forces then almost ingrain you in self because suddenly you don't have the resources you need. You feel a lack. So then it's like, okay, I need to gather gather to boost the self. And the more you're self focused and the less you're able to have the empathy to think, wait, if I were in that person's shoes, I'd be doing the exact same thing. Um, which is why I think we tell stories. And I think we've been doing this since we were in the cave around a fire. U we tell stories to try to break out of that rigidness of the self. You know, >> it's a deeply spiritual work wrapped in a a very delicious digestible pop culture flavor, you know, like you're you're working on a very deep level with the themes, you know, and you signal it at the end very overtly with the samsara and the mandelola and all of that, but like those themes are operating throughout the entire season. And it's a much more mature, you know, kind of growth out of season one. Like you've expanded your aperture and you're tackling like much deeper existential questions about what it what it is to be human. >> Uh yeah, I I I we definitely wanted to, you know, graduate, so to speak. Like season one kind of felt like a examination of a lot of stuff from my past, you know. um uh like Danny's character in season one uh like his struggles with mental health and you know the season one opens with him returning hibachi girls that he had bought to uh kill himself which was you know just ripped from the headlines of my life something that I did at one point and and so I feel like season one felt like very much like old chapter and uh you know I'm so glad that you you you felt this shift because did feel like season 2, we wanted to tap into more of what's happening now uh for for a lot of my peers and I of of being 40some and and starting to grapple with time and and realizing wait like I'm becoming the generation before me and I didn't even realize that that was happening and um and so I think because this was more now and season one's more old it felt like also the film making and the aesthetic needed to change a little bit. Like season one intentionally felt very like grungy and messy and and that's why all the needle drops are like '90s grunge cuz it felt like spiritually those characters were trapped back then >> in that in that time period. Yeah. >> Whereas season two wanted to go more painterly, more lush. Um you it's a season about love. So even the score is very like emotive and you have these like you know thick synths that Phineas composed and um you know that felt much more of of now which I think I think as you know at least for me as you hit middle age you start to feel new things and there's a lot of melancholy and sadness I think um as as as you lose you know during the making of the show um you know I lost one of my dogs unexpectedly and um you and then I put that into the show and uh and so there's a lot of sadness that we wanted to tap into. >> What got me in the door was I'm friends with David Cho uh and the fact that it was set in Calabasa season one. Um and I became obsessed with the locations where you were shooting. In fact, the house, Steven Young's house, I'm like, I think I know where that house is. Like I was like, I think I know exactly where that house is. And I was out on a bike ride one day and uh I I pulled up this photo today. So here it is. >> Yeah, that's right. Oh my gosh. >> And I took this photo on Let's see. Hold on. Uh June 25th, 2023. >> Oh, no way. Wow. So you're very early. >> No, I was obsessed with the show. >> No, but the house is spot. That's actually like a one minute walk from from from my home. So, [laughter] but just seeing the foibless of people who live in Calabasas brought to the screen and then in season two like I I spend time in Ohio, like I'm not a Monosto person, but I have friends in Oh, I go up there and like just I was like, "Oh my god, you're just like operating in my world, you [gasps] know, reading my mind." But it's it's these deeper themes that have got me really invested in it. I mean this is all you know deriving from Ramdas and Alan Watts and Esther Prell like these are these are like my touchstones you know and I spent a lot of time thinking about their work and I know because you've said it that be here now is your favorite is it favorite book is that true >> I mean your Instagram handle is be here now later >> oh be here later >> be here later okay [laughter] yeah cuz it's like yeah you should be here now and then on Instagram later >> but Yeah. No, I mean honestly, I mean, your uh not to just gas you up cuz I'm here, but um I mean, your podcast is hugely influential um for for my mental health and a lot of me processing these themes. I mean, you've introduced me through your guest through so many people that are speaking to and just even your own journey and and how you're so um about transformation and about uh kind of taking off the mask and examining what's really going on with being alive. Um >> I I've consumed so much of of of your words and your guest words that it does filter into my work, you know. >> That's beautiful. I appreciate that. >> Yeah. But now that I know that, now I'm jealous that uh the podcast drop in season two uh wasn't me and it was Huberman. But actually much [laughter] funnier that it was Andrew. >> Well, I you don't talk about dopamine as much as you >> don't. I I definitely don't. Um that was very very funny. >> Oh, thanks. Um, what does that say about how you think about like the self-optimization movement and kind of the podcast landscape around like mental health because it's changed a lot, you know, like there's like I'm a beneficiary of this format of media, you know, becoming what it has become, but there's a lot about it also that's >> causes me a fair amount of concern. >> Yeah, it's certainly changed a lot. I mean, I think that's why it was sort of fun to like, you know, poke fun at it through the show. Uh, but while also not rejecting it because like like truthfully like I am Josh. like I I do like uh like sit alone at my you know part of the house and listen to uh you know you and Huberman and and I'm constantly trying to like work on myself but then like not really showing any fruits of that labor [laughter] uh >> or using it to check out from the real thing that you say you know like when Josh is like I'm listening to a [ __ ] podcast [laughter] but he's like clearly has a crisis that he should be addressing. >> Exactly. Like I think it's just like any anything that we do as humans. It starts in earnest and and there is great uh um truth in it but then but then like it mutates like then everything else gets involved then like uh then there's commerce and and humans we hydonically adapt so quickly that suddenly this becomes the status quo and then you're looking for you get accustomed to the rhythm of okay I'm going to listen to my podcast but I'm going to stay the same and then suddenly the thing that was enacting changed change becomes the thing that makes you stagnant and and then you need the new thing. And again, I think that's why we keep telling the same stories around the fire. Like we've been telling the same stories to each other for all of time. And I think it's because we're that dumb. Like we're like we hear a story, we're like deeply moved and we're like, I'm going to change starting now. And then and then we don't and then we have to tell the same stories over and over again. Uh, and so I think the self-help movement, while like it's helped me so much, um, it's going through the same reckoning I think that every movement does, uh, which is growth and then stagnation and then capitalism, you know, puts its claws in and then but then it has to adapt and change and I think it will. >> Yeah. I mean, the the the sort of overarching message that I get from season 2 is that change, evolution, growth, like these things are possible and they're always within our grasp. We just get in our own way. >> Yes. >> And because of that, we're just playing out these loops. you know, we're faded to a certain destiny because we're we're stuck in a certain rut, you know, and your samsara Mandelola kind of really illustrates this like breaking free is possible. It's just very difficult and most of us just can't do it, you know, [laughter] basically. >> Yeah. I mean, I certainly have it. And uh randomly I I was on my way to a Timberwolves game and I uh was sitting next to Jay Shetty uh uh also within this world and and we like instantly became like fast friends and started talking about the themes of the show and he said something interesting about you know uh what he learned um you know studying like o over in India and the uh vadic texts and that you know when it comes to mountains there's actually mountains um in the east where you're not allowed to climb them. It's illegal to climb them because spiritually uh it it's sort of like a something that's very like looked down upon to feel like you have to like climb it and yeah reach it and really what they do is instead just kind of they go around it which is >> so beautiful to me and I my brain is so trained to climb mountains and so even the act of breaking out of samsara it's like a mountain that I want to achieve and so I think season two at least for me and you know I'm I'm speaking more overtly about it here probably than I I try to be more vague in other interviews because I do want to leave the show open to interpretation but you know I know you like truly deeply get this but for me like that the the feeling of being trapped in some sara can be so suffocating at times that it is truly the root of my mental health struggles. I feel like this thing is a prison and I just want to break out. And I used to break want to break out in a very, you know, detrimental way through self harm. And now it's almost the opposite side of the same coin where it feels like a mountain where I'm like, okay, if I work on myself, if I do this, if I do that, then like, okay, I got to climb this mountain and break out. And season 2 for me was trying to learn to accept that like hey it's it's okay to just go around the mountain. >> Not only is it okay that's actually the solution like the sort of stvers approach to like I am going to achieve you know like my mental health >> is applying the problematic aspect of yourself to the problem. You know what I mean? instead of like actually if you just let go and not approach it like it's a goal to be achieved you're more likely to begin to inhabit the solution. >> It's so counterintuitive but it's so correct. You know Steven Young had a Ursula Kayla Gene quote that was a big northstar for for beef where she says uh to oppose something is to maintain it and yeah that letting go is actually the thing. >> Yeah. But we we keep forgetting. >> Yeah. My wife always says uh if you're if you're fighting against something like even for good reasons like you're an activist or you're you know applying yourself to resolve you know you have a cause like you're still fighting. >> Yes. >> You know and that's the that's sort of the the brain pretzel of it all the conundrum. [clears throat] Well, and I think that's uh Alan Watts talks about it a lot with that concept of wooue of h how do how do you how do you feel where the natural momentum is in life and sort of like use it against itself? Like you you you can like in activism you can fight right up against it um usually causes more friction, but how can you actually like judo uh the thing that you're up against? And I try to apply that uh just you know in writing and in in you know in my collaborations you know of often times with networks like you know you can get into like a standoff and they're like don't get a script and then suddenly you're like just all right I'm going to dig my heels in and that's never worked like it usually ends up where you have to at the end of the day lose because they're ultimately the network or you end up in this weird compromise that neither party likes. Um, but I think you can learn to judo it where uh you can like take their fervor of notes and why they're saying the notes and try to like use that to your advantage and be like, well, I'm on the same team as you. I want what you want, but here like come over here. Let me show you like a different way to achieve that and let's talk about it together. And then suddenly they're actually doing exactly the thing that you wanted. It just it required a little a different angle. >> Right. Right. Right. 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I want to get into your career path, but you mentioned your mental health uh journey and I kind of want to start there. Like you've been pretty transparent about your struggles with depression and how your personal life experiences find their way into the beef narratives. Like when did that start for you and how do you make sense of what caused it? you know, I mean, I I do therapy every week and, you know, I'm still trying to unravel it all, but uh yeah, I I think it started at a very young age. Um uh I I I think I remember like in sixth grade, I started like just devouring CS Lewis. Um because I wanted to make sense of this and um and and I think part of it is uh you know I I I moved around a lot. I moved every 3 to four years of my life and I love my parents so much and um you know they did so much to give us a better life but then also you know we were constantly on the move and al you know and I think part of that is they were sort of chasing a uh sense of happiness that would always go ary and then you they try to clean slate it every 3 to four years >> and so like home never felt like a a safe space to me. Um uh and again like I know my parents may watch this so like I do love them and they they did create safety in many ways but uh for a variety of factors I think emotionally I um home wasn't safe. There's this one line that Ali Wong says at the finale of season 1 where she says where nowhere feels like home uh you just go inward. And that started really really young. And uh and I think also as a Korean kid kind of moving up and down the Midwest, not having a sense of home with your family and you don't feel at home in society, then you you really feel alone. Like I just remember for at such a young age like truly understanding like loneliness and um back then I think loneliness felt like a thing to solve like again the mountain where like I need to I need to fill it with this. I need to like find connection this way. I need to uh throw myself into um music or you know also I think for a lot of people my age that's when the internet was invented uh uh and I think a lot of guys my age then we like also uh you know it was like suddenly access to porn you know and then then that becomes like a thing that you uh uh scratch the itch with um so I was always kind of like finding trying to find these crutches is that would eventually collapse and then that would just make me more depressed and more depressed >> because there's always just emptiness on the other side of them. >> Well, I think eventually we all have to grapple with the fact that like I mean I I wrote a lot of this into the finale of season 1 that I think the world is the way it is because we're just an extension of God. like like and I say God in a sort of a loose sense like we're the branches of a tree and that tree is everything. So it is alone. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Like God is alone in nothingness and we are just working itself out through this eternal process. And I think we all have to grapple with the fact that we're alone. And um but we've created all this as an illusion to like feel feel not alone. But then you know this is all a you know that word leela divine play. >> It's a it's a play. It ends and then you have to grapple with the fact that >> it's just you. >> We're operating in our Maya. And in the same way that music and story structure works in this rise and fall method, uh we craft these identities, archetypal identities to help us make sense of who we are and where we fit in. And that's just a story and an illusion as well that we think makes us feel more connected, but actually becomes an obstacle. And like you're somebody who has this incisive ability to like deconstruct the generational divide and you do it explicitly in season two with with the difference between millennials and and and Gen Z, but it comes full circle to say like >> it doesn't really matter. Like we're all we're all just becoming our parents and doing the same thing. Like you can you can be under this illusion for a little while and then the older you get, you realize like >> there really isn't the difference that we think there is. >> Yes. Yes. I it's why the finale was titled it will stay this way and you will obey which is based on a Marian woodland quote that is literally like I think it starts with like old mother god old father god you have trapped us here [laughter] >> and yeah it's like this feeling that >> like you said it it doesn't matter the four seasons are going to come for you >> I love talking to you about the finale because you're sort of the first person who you know explicitly is getting all the things that we put down But we also ultimately wanted to leave that final shot uh really open-ended and a blank canvas for the audience because I don't know that like I know if I watched that in my 20s I wouldn't really be speaking of it like this. Uh I would I would probably be speaking of it as more of like a negative ending which I have found amongst my like Gen Z peers when they watch the show they have a very different takeaway than when my you know 40some friends watch the show. And I'd imagine, you know, boomers watch the show also take away something different. And I and I I think that's the beauty of Samsara is that as you go around the mountain, every time you go around, you're you're feeling and thinking something different. >> Yeah. Far be it for me to uh demand the artist explain his work. I don't want to put you in that position. But I think that you like you walked a tight rope in ending it in the way that you did because you don't want to leave the audience with this cynical feeling about their fate. Uh and you do a beautiful job of threading that needle by leaving us with some hope. But I do think yeah it is it is the the interpretation is on the beholder and that's going to depend upon your lot in life and your your set of unique life experiences and your age your age as well. And so it's this interesting combination of timeless like if you go back and watch season 2, you know, 101 15 years later, you're going to interpret it differently because you've matured into a different, you know, kind of period of your life, season of your life, but it's also terminally online. You know, you have [laughter] you like you have this ability to really understand like youth culture and their relationship to the internet in this very authentic way that doesn't feel like patched on by a boomer, you know? It's like this is you are conversant in a way that I think that is another reason why audiences are responding to it because it just feels so real. >> Oh, thank you. I I I think it's unfortunately due to me being terminally online and uh I need to I need to stop. >> I've I've been I've been researching for like 6 months and I don't know if you found something where I really don't want to have my phone anymore. and there's all these new gadgets where like you can have the phone in the other room and it's just like a brick that you can just access Spotify and things like that. But then I just haven't found the right thing and then I end up getting my phone and the next thing I know I'm reading every single negative comment about the show that exists online and >> still >> Oh, I I like did it yesterday. >> Oh, you [laughter] did? >> Yeah. It's become almost like a daily routine and I need to I need to stop. But uh I think you know what I then I try to take that spirit and then put it into the work and then hopefully other people who are terminally online will relate. >> Yeah. >> But uh yeah I I'm hoping the next project I do uh I'll have reached that goal of being less online and and you can feel it in the work. >> Yeah. It's almost like we need a new Maslo's hierarchy of needs that takes into account our relationship with the digital world. Oh my gosh. Have you seen that um Adam Curtis documentary hyperormalization? >> I haven't. >> It is. I I think he is the most brilliant documentarian alive. And uh if you haven't seen um the century of self, that's like that is so up your alley. It like literally goes through like preWorld War to now and how um we've basically created this century of self. >> Uh and it really comes down to three people that started it. Um, and he did this other documentary I think in 2016 called hypernormalization that just has spot-on predicted what the internet uh has done to us. >> Uh, and then yet I like we were talking earlier, I watch it, I feel [clears throat] moved, and then I get my phone [laughter] and I go to Reddit. >> What do you think is the the fulcrum between uh understanding and behavior change? >> Oh man, I was hoping you would tell me. Yeah. Well, I mean this is a question I ask everyone because it's it is a you know it's a confounding one. You know, people change when they are ready to change when when they're visited with some degree of willingness and pain is always >> the obvious motivator. But >> but it usually takes something depending on how what part of your life is rigid and how rigid it is. I find that it's like the more calamitous of an event, the more you're able to shake up the [clears throat] pattern. Um, but it's tough because I think as we get older, um, you know, especially if you have privilege, you start to create a life that doesn't have any of those earthquakes. You know, Josh's monologue in episode 6 after doing BuffO where he talks about his inability to change, you know, that just I wrote that in like, you know, 2 minutes. It just came pouring out of me. Um uh because I I I do feel that sometimes where uh like I don't know when the tipping point is but in your 20s and 30s you keep feeling like oh I'm going to work on that. I'm going to change like uh like I I I feel it but it's not that big of a problem yet and I'm going to and work on it tomorrow. And then you blink and then it it's become who you are and suddenly it feels like you are unable to change at all. And that that window closes so fast at least in my experience. And uh I I do wish I kind of love that Josh is giving that advice to Austin and then Austin applies it to something so small like have you ever uh like found someone else attractive while you're with [laughter] but I remember older people giving me that advice in my 20s and me registering it. But then still you can't. >> Mhm. >> You know, and I think that's why so many religions I think the people who started those Abrahamic religions are literally just us having this podcast but like in the desert having eaten some you know psychotropic like you know root and then they are thinking these things and then their solution was like well that's why you got to pray every day. That's why you need to have like these daily routines. We're just going to write a bunch of rules >> cuz you need strict rules to be able to uh uh offset everything we're talking about. And then I think in modern life we've you know you I I went to Korean church when I was growing up and I you know I don't as much anymore. Uh like I've we've lost kind of we need a new set of modern rules which I think is why self-help podcasts have become such a thing. >> Yeah. secular religion. Yeah. You know, this obsession with self-optimization, but it plays into the hyper individual, you know, kind of like the prioritizing the individual self above everything else, which loses sight of the best of what religious traditions teach us, which is it's about togetherness. It's about the oneness. >> Yes. >> Um but we're, you know, operating in our identities and our illusion. And you know, you're a storyteller. I mean, my theory on this is that there's nothing more powerful than a story well told. Uh, and we're very vulnerable to these stories and we craft stories about who we are. Like a version of like we we have this sense of like I am this person. I do these things. This is who I am. I can't do this and I can do this. It's just a story. Like we could rewrite that story at any time, but we don't. we buy into it and we believe it and um we then get stuck in these patterns of behavior that just play that story out again and again and again and we become we we basically imprison ourselves through storytelling. Yeah, I was thinking about it the other day of um you know the the shapes that we were talking about when you think about kind of old shamanic cultures uh or even like you know you listen to like Tibetan monk music uh there's no shape they they are just vamping on one note you know it's just this [clears throat] the whole time um and and the stories they told weren't like rises and falls it was just the story about a hour, [laughter] you know, and you know, it is sort of a mirror like you're saying, like it's almost this recursive feedback loop that we're stuck in where again the cycles too of of we we're we're trying to chase change. So then we the storytelling mirrors change and we have the status quo rise fall rise and then and then we get addicted to that and then and then suddenly it's just we see rise fall rise then we do rise fall rise and then >> and [clears throat] I would love to get to a point where narratively it's so hard with like how streaming works now but I'd love to get to a point where narratively like >> you could just sort of vamp you know like like that's kind of what like uh you know Link Ladder used to do uh in his early work, he'd just be vamping. >> There's no there's no structure to slacker. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the best, you know. Um but for some reason, we're we're we're collectively not there yet. But I mean, maybe it does take someone doing that uh and and trying to incite that change in culture, but but then it's tough, you know, as a filmmaker. I'm like, "Oh, I would love to make a slacker, but then you can't." >> Yeah. But [laughter] then Marvel knocks on your door and says, "Uh, are you interested in X-Men?" And then you're 55 years old [laughter] and you know, you you you're living this big life and you're like, "Why would I risk this to go make my version of Slacker?" >> Oh, totally. I mean, that's exactly what happened. I I I did uncredited work for Thunderbolts for my friend Jake Shrier, who I work with a lot. And I remember telling my reps and all my friends, I'm like, "Uh, just remind me that I like like I'm I'm not going to do blockbuster movies again." Uh, no knock on Marvel. And then next thing you know, they're like, "Hey, we have X-Men." I'm like, "I'll do it." [laughter] >> But Jake is involved in that, you know? Is he the director? >> He is the director. Yeah. I mean, so I I mean, I love working with Jake, but then also like, you know, if Jake were doing like, you know, another Avengers, I probably wouldn't do it, but it's X-Men. Like, I grew up on X-Men. That's my favorite thing ever. >> Uh, like my dad and I used to wake up Saturday mornings and watch, you know, the animated series together. >> Uh, so it's really hard to to say no to that cuz then like >> I think about like my childhood me, like how am I going to go back in time and tell that, >> right? you know, [laughter] akin to that. Yeah, we got offered that. >> True. My artistic there's a h there's a hubris in being like, "No, I'm not doing [laughter] that because like I need to make slacker." >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Um, you probably can't say very much about X-Men, but can you report on where you are in the cycle of this movie getting made? >> Uh, yeah. I mean, we we've been working on a draft. Joanna Callo uh and I who's also a frequent collaborator. She co-show runs and co-directs The Bear. >> There's a lot of internet stuff about casting and we you know that is true. Marvel is casting right now >> and um you know Kevin, Jake and Lou uh read a draft of ours. Uh I think they're super excited. We're in the middle of rewriting that draft. And um what I love about Kevin Feige and I've just grown to admire him more and more is like there's a reason he is running Marvel for as long as he is. Like he has incredible instincts and a true like childlike uh joy in in the work. It really is play when you like get in a room with him. And and so that's been really a surprisingly fun part of this. like I was sort of dreading going back into the blockbuster world, but uh I didn't interact with Kevin as much on Thunderbolts, but on X-Men, it's like every single meeting he's a part of, every single writing session he's a part of. And um getting to his joy is so contagious that getting to do that and remember that what I get to do is play at the end of the day has been a nice like, you know, perspective reshift for me. Well, it's an interesting moment for Marvel. Uh, you know, we're we're having this >> kind of epic uh original IP uh moment right now. >> Um, which is fantastic. You know, you you just can't even get a ticket to see the Odyssey and IMAX for like weeks. Uh, it's really exciting and and and fun and cool. And we're also seeing the maturation of these younger filmmakers uh you know back rooms and obsession like things are shifting in a good and super interesting way right now but it changes the audience's relationship with legacy IP like what Marvel has been so good at and now you know now there's you know it's it's a little bit different like I think the stakes are pretty high >> very high >> um and maybe that's why Kevin Feige is showing up at all the meetings uh do you feel that pressure like they need a win. >> Kevin's very self-aware and uh he'll he'll joke about it for sure. Um but uh I think that's why he's been so supportive of taking big swings with X-Men >> and um not not thinking plot first, but character first, which is, >> you know, kind of a no-brainer. Like, you know, that's like writing 101 is of course character first. But I think with success again like what we're talking about like every movement starts in earnest just like Marvel did and then it stagnates and then capitalism comes in and then it has to evolve and I I think Marvel is evolving. Um you know I got to see an early cut of of Spider-Man a brand new day and it's it's fantastic. It's really really good. Like Destin knocked it out of the park. And so I think there is a a turning of the cycle happening over there. >> Yeah. >> Well, it's a gigantic conglomerate corporation, you know, and like any maturation of any company, at some point they're going to be disrupted unless they disrupt themselves, you know, but you can you can kind of cave in under the weight of your large S. Yeah. You know, and that that's like the life cycle of every big company. >> Yeah. I think they were very smart. they had scaled too much and too fast in my opinion with all the TV shows and things like that. And I think Kevin very smartly has like all right like let's let's let's uh like you know filter out some of the noise and get back to what we're very good at. I'm just kind of one small cog in that giant process and I think uh Joanne and I are just trying to do right by these characters and and inject some depth. Um um I there's a lot of vendagram I think with uh Beef season 2 from a bird's eye view, you know. Um so I think uh hopefully audiences will feel that. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp, which is why I'm going to cross my legs right now and lean back into my therapist [music] posture. BetterHelp surveyed a couple thousand Americans this year, and shockingly, 85% said getting [music] support is a wise thing to do, but 74% felt like society still quietly discourages it. 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This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Building something online is one thing. Getting people to actually find it, well, that's another. And that's where most people quietly stall [music] out. You make the thing, you put it up, and then crickets. Well, this is where Squarespace really earns it. It's the all-in-one platform for building your site and growing it because it's got all the SEO tools built right in. Meta descriptions, an autogenerated site map, all the behindthescenes machinery working so that when someone searches for what you do, the internet actually delivers them to your doorstep. You don't have to understand any of this. It just runs. And once people are showing up, you can do something with that. [music] If you make content, courses, videos, tutorials, and membership, Squarespace lets you put it behind a payw wall and earn recurring revenue. Set the price, choose one time [music] or subscription. Done. Your expertise becomes something that pays you back on repeat. Get found, then get paid for what you know. Not a bad combination. Head to squarespace.com/richroll for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code richoll to save 10% off your first purchase of a website [music] or domain. One of the things I love about Rivian is the way they fill their vehicles with so much amazing high performance technology, but always make sure it feels like second nature, that it keeps that human touch. And a great example would be the haptic halo wheels on the new R2. On either side of the steering wheel, there's a dial that you could roll, push, and pull to adjust things like the AC or skipped in the next song. and they have this incredibly satisfying tactile [music] feel because you're really clicking a button and rolling a mechanical wheel. I was recently able to drive an R2 with R.J. Scringe, the [music] founder and CEO, and he shared the thinking behind this cool and unique feature. They have these really nice haptic wheels that are on the steering that give you this mechanical feel. And it's all software, so it's haptic feedback. And what you're feeling is actually there's no detents there. It's all with software. So walk me through the thinking on that because as technology is sort of informing this screen only experience there is something in the human animal that craves that kind of tactile control. >> Yeah. And that was part of what the logic was here is we and that was from the feedback we had in N1 is the desire from some more mechanical touch points and and also the ability to not have to use the multi-touch screen for everything. >> Mhm. And so being able to do HVAC through this side, your entertainment [music] through that side, you also have drive modes in here as well. There are just so many features packed into this vehicle. You can learn all about them, watch the [music] rest of our conversation, and even book a demo drive at stories. Rich roll. I was thinking about um Ashley and Austin and their relationship dynamic because there's a lot there's so much like relationship stuff going on. >> New love, matured love, old love. What do relationships mean? What is the definition of love uh for different people at different stages of their life? >> And on Reddit, there's like a lot of hand ringing around the Ashley character. Like people are it's really like a lightning rod for people. And I think that's also a lens into somebody's generational perspective. Like depending upon how old you are, you're going to have a certain opinion of that character. >> Totally. >> And what's generating her bad behavior or >> what's creating sympathy for the the way that she's behaving. Yeah, we talked a lot about that as we were writing um and even in the edit because you know most of the network uh and people uh chiming in on notes on the show are you know elder millennial Gen X or older and they have a very specific lens upon how they're viewing these characters. But then I we'd often have to like remind everyone like intentionally we are crafting this show so that uh you know Gen Z can have a different experience watching this show than millennials do and vice versa. But it it has been surprising to me like the degree to which uh Ashley is like you [laughter] were on. Uh, but you know, I think if we're all being honest, like, you know, at least for me, I don't want to speak for everybody, but there there are so many aspects of Ashley that are have been in my psyche, whether in the past or currently, you know, and I think maybe that's why it's so triggering. It's just like she is the most overtly like uh like a part of myself that I don't like. M >> um and then you see it and then you have to protect yourself as a viewer because you're like that's not me and I'm going to just hate her then you know. >> Um but I think if we're being honest uh her behavior is triggering because there's some truth in there. >> Yeah. There's something about yourself that you're unhappy with that's being reflected in this character. If you're compartmentalizing or denial about your own behavior that's being character like when I look at her I see my mother you know like this is a person to me it's very clear like she has >> like both of them have attachment issues she is an avoidant you know or she's an she has an she's anxious attachment >> and he is an avoidant you know and of course they're together like you know I It's like archetypal, right? And so that yeah, they're behaving this way. Like this is my mother and my father and it's upsetting to me because like it's it's making me relive that dynamic, >> you know? >> Yeah, she is for sure anxious attachment. And I I'd be curious like if there's I wish Netflix had like data that was like like uh you know this percentage of avoidant viewers found Ashley [laughter] like despicable >> you know like I am curious like if you have anxious attachment are you more inclined to relate to Ashley or do you like her less? But >> I think you I think if you're if you're an anxious attachment person then you're going to sympathize with her. You're going to understand why she's behaving that way. >> I hope so. I both suffered trauma that make them this way. It's like it's like you you can you can sympathize with what caused them to behave in this way, whether you disagree with their behavior or not. >> Which is why we wrote um her backstory the way it was. A lot of it was influenced by, you know, some of Kaylee Spany's, uh, you know, uh, backstory, not one to one, but, you know, this the soup of discussions led to this backstory of someone who, um, her, you know, Ashley's mom wasn't around. Like, uh, her mom and dad split when they were young and then, uh, the dad started a new family and the mom just is is not really around. And and so then you have uh you know, I'm sure for Ashley as a child, her parents split. Her dad's got a new family. So then there must be this need to like, okay, I want to still be a part of a family. Like, you know, I need a people please. I need do they still like me? Like I I imagine at a young age that started. And so um you know, we try to show not tell in our show of of you know, we have that backstory. There's that hallucinatory moment. um nightmare in the hospital with the mom phone call as we try to leave some breadcrumbs to get the audience to uh hopefully have empathy for why she is the way she is. >> Uh but there seems to be definitely a certain uh subset of the uh beef viewership that like rejects that backstory [laughter] and >> she has been rejected by the people who were meant to love and nurture her. Uh, and so she is going to do everything in her power to create stability and a feeling of connection. And anything that threatens that is an existential threat to her life. And so she's going to respond violently to that. >> Yeah. Exactly. And I think that's why she's hanging on so tightly to this relationship. It's not even about Austin at the end of the day. She just can't. >> She's just a vehicle for that. >> Exactly. her. I don't think she can emotionally process the grief of losing this crutch that replaced the original hurt. >> And for Austin, who you know is avoidant, uh I think when he's faced with the fact like, oh, I'm going to go chase Ununice, who is also being now being avoidant with me. That doesn't feel good for an avoidant because they actually secretly like this chase of an anxious person coming at them because they're avoidant. They get to be the avoider. Then suddenly avoidant is faced with an avoidant and then I think in the finale he he has to reckon with wait like I don't think this person actually loves me back. Um I don't love Ashley but she is at least dependable in the sense that I can depend on her to be anxiously attached to me no matter what. So he does the you know safe um you know I guess not courageous thing in in some regards. I it's Charles Melton. I think in embodying Austin actually I think he views the ending as courageous in some ways as almost as he that his character realized that he has to be an adult and in order to have a family and a career and you know he's actually making a mature choice for once to to buy into adulthood. Uh you know that's one take on it. Uh but I think for me in that moment in the cab, Austin is kind of going back to the familiar. >> It's it is a tragic choice uh because he's making it with a degree of self-awareness like he understands why he's making this decision and still making it. >> Um but that archetype will also rationalize it by saying well like you know like they're they're sacrificing themsel for this other person and there's something beautiful about that. And that's true. >> Yes. It was curious to me when Austin, Charles Melton's character, like who, you know, he he just is so good at playing the kind of somewhat dim-witted but sweet guy, like you just you you you want him to win. You're cheering for him, but you know, he's just kind of like, you know, he just doesn't he's not dealing with a full deck all the time. But then when it comes to diagnosing Ashley, he just like nails it as if he was, you know, young himself. And I'm like, that feels sort of inconsistent with this character that you've established. But then I think, well, he's always going on Reddit and like getting answers. He just memoriz like is that the idea there that he just went there and found this thing and like recited it? >> Yeah, we try to like sort of breadcrumb even from the first episode someone who uh like you're saying like goes on Reddit, you know, reads all the smart things. Um, and he he references also like uh self-help and and love advice all the time. So, uh, you know, again, trying to write what we know and feel true to to real life. Like I do that for sure. Like so many writers in the room do that where like we'd be like talking about something in the writer room and someone would be like, "Oh, hey, I read that blah blah blah blah blah blah blah." I'm like, "Did you read it or did you see an Instagram post?" And they're like, "I saw a post." And I'm like, and do you do you have anything else to add to that or is it that is that like the end of your knowledge? And I think that's just all of us right now as we have a very like cursory superficial relationship with the, you know, amount of self-help stuff coming at us. >> And and so I think Austin's been doing that all season. and he's probably been, you [snorts] know, in conversations with his mom and conversations with on Reddit, starting to get a sense of how he feels about Ashley. Um, but then being of an avoidant, he hasn't expressed it and then finally at the end it just kind of all comes uh pouring out. You know, I' I've I've definitely done that too where like, you know, I I I certainly am not a psychologist, but I will like see an article, I'll be like, "Oh, that's this person going to mentally clock that, you know, and and then I just p I hold it and hold it and hit and then some fight and I just like >> right >> drop the bomb, but I have no like actual like knowledge or like like I I I'm not in a position to be giving that giving that diagnosis." So, you know, we were trying to to kind of stay true to, you know, what what a lot of us, I think, experience in real life. >> Yeah. You also stayed true to the way that young people actually use their phones and the internet. like a lot of sort of texting and that sort of thing in television shows and movies feels tacked on for uh you know exposition reasons and uh but here it's so gerine to the characters and the advancement of the plot uh that it just becomes like it's a feature not a bug you know in the way that in the way that you do it. Uh, so I thought it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on like what is the difference between in your mind like Gen Z and millennials like what is what is the how do you define that divide or that delta? >> Oh man, that's a great question. I find that >> and h like I don't want to speak too generally because then I know I'm going to spend an evening reading the negative comments to uh to [snorts] what I'm about to say. >> You got to stop doing that. I do. Yes. Uh and uh um I think millennials tend to use social media to be very presentational. It's more about like how do I use this vehicle to then like create a certain image that can then funnel back into my ego. And I think Gen Z because they maybe they started doing that similarly at a younger age, but then at this point I feel like Gen Z is more like using social media to like get what they want, you know, rather than like it's like millennials are like we're like outwardly seeking into the void of the internet to hopefully get something back. Whereas Gen Z is like no, I I want money, so I'm going to create content to then get money. uh I don't like sure like it's nice to get likes and blah blah blah but at the end of the day I I want this so I'm going to use this means to get it whereas I still see millennials like I don't see as many millennials like content creating but they certainly are producing just as much content but to just feel good about themselves >> for external validation reasons. Yeah, I think I that's again my observation. Uh I hope uh I I I don't like painting in broad strokes because uh the internet gets mad. But um but that tends to be what I see. >> Yeah, that's super interesting. I'm an elder Gen X. >> Uh no Gen X in season 2. You skipped over this. We get This is my thing. This is my beef with not just this season of beef, but like in general like we get lumped in with boomers. It's like everything's okay boomer. [laughter] And I was like, >> dude, we're the coolest. Don't Why did everyone forget this? >> I I Well, one I fully agree erased from the record. >> I'm 81, so I am elder millennial Gen X cusp. I And I do think that Gen X is the greatest generation. Uh but I I fully agree. Gen X just kind of gets lost. And and honestly, Oscar Isaac is Gen X. Like he is not uh like in real life, he is not Elder Millennial. And there was a time when we were writing where we're like, "Oh, should we like stay true to real life and have like Carrie Mulligan be Elder Millennial and Oscar Isaac be Gen X?" But then just in theme, it felt cleaner to just be like it's Elder Millennial versus Gen Z. Uh so that so that's how Jed X got cut out [laughter] of this one. But it it is interesting. I do like spiritually I relate to Gen X the most because being cusp where the the late 90s and um early 2000s was very like the most influential for me, you know, like uh late '90s music is like what I live and breathe and and you know early Link Ladder like reality bites singles like that was so formative. Uh but um but yeah, we I don't know if it's just cuz like Gen X is uh like when you when you think about those movies and that music, it's spiritually it doesn't feel like an energy that like Doth protests too much. You know what I mean? Like it's like it's like literally like slackers, you know? It's just like [laughter] >> But that's the whole sensibility of Gen X, you know what I mean? Just sort of like whatever. >> Yeah. Of course, as you get lost as a generation, it's just like >> because we [laughter] didn't raise our hands enough, I guess. Um, but there is this great '90s nostalgia moment right now that is impacting Gen Z. Like, Gen Z seems very affectionate in their kind of nostalgia for for for the '9s. I think the same thing is happening because the the Gen X was a response to Reagan era very corporate buttoned up um Christian ideology and then of course the generation after was like no thank you like we're going to break all those rules and I think Gen Z uh feels that way it's it's like the next cycle of it you know they're looking at all the the the rules and sort of ideology ologies and the rigidness of what came before and being like wait like I'm listening to Nirvana or Smashing Pumpkins and I'm starting to something's resonating in me because I'm going through that right now. And so it's really cool to like see them rediscover. And then also how Gen Z gravitates towards things that like the fact that Gen Z gravitates towards deaf tones in a way that you know Gen X deaf tones never got its proper due uh in the '9s. It's it's that's amazing, you know, and it does >> give me great hope for the future. It actually like truly is life affirming to see things like this because like the cycles it's not just like a circle. It feels like it's a spiral and like each time it's a little different and each time it grows and evolves and it's like heading somewhere which is nice. >> Yeah. I have a 19-year-old daughter and she has the most eclectic taste because >> she's not waiting for the new album to drop or what the radio station is going to tell her that she should like. She has the entire cannon of music available [laughter] to her to like choose what what what speaks to her. Yeah. >> And you know, she's like it it's like Sonic Youth and Elliot Smith and then it's jazz and then it's like some you know from the 40s and then it's >> uh Boards of Canada like all this cool new stuff too and and and so she's like my muse for tasting culture you know like I just think there's something really awesome about that >> cuz I was just like >> what's on the radio you know when I grew up. >> Totally. It's all within this nostalgia for the '9s because it was you know [clears throat] you know the last analog era like I think what gets overlooked is is you know the limitations of that and that culture was was sort of impressed upon us or dictated like we didn't necessarily get to define it until something like Nirvana comes along and like and and it just becomes undeniable. >> Yeah. Exactly. doing season two, I did find myself um uh becoming more aware of how I was turning into the older generation. And and I I think what naturally happens as, you know, millennials are hitting their 40s is it's easy to become the version of the generation that used to be above us where you're judging the next generation and you're like, "Oh, like these kids don't know." and like back in my day, blah blah blah. But I love what you're saying cuz it's like that's actually us as old heads talking. Like when you when you really put yourself in the shoes of the youth, like that is really cool that they like can just get to pick eclectically in a way that we didn't. And and I'm trying to remind myself I I I catch myself every day doing things where I'm like, "Oh, I sound like what a 40ome year old used to sound like to me." That's so important to try to keep your brain, you know, uh your neuroplasticity from getting too rigid and and that's what I'm so excited about like raising my daughter like already like her personality shining through. She's walking and talking and I can't wait to see what she likes, you know? That that that's that's so beautiful. >> It was a real wakeup call for me watching season 2. I had this like realization that millennials are adults now. >> Like because I'm old enough. I'm like, "Oh, there's millennials are the young generation, you know?" And I was like, "Wait, Oscar Isaac. Yeah, okay. Maybe he's Gen X." But he's portraying a character like a mature grown-up character who is a millennial. And I was like, "Wow, I'm old." [laughter] >> Yeah. Cuz I remember when we were just lamenting the millennials as like lazy and not wanting to work. And now it's like Jenz's like, "Hold my beer." like these tropes around like, you know, oh, like no one wants to work hard and all that kind of stuff. Like we're just recycling these things. I'm sure, you know, the great generation and the boomers looked at Gen X as the ultimate slackers, you know, and now we're doing the same thing. >> Exact same thing. Yeah. And that's that's that's the that's that final shot of the season. >> Yeah. You know, I feel like the best thing to do with with these these waves is is to try to learn how to surf them, you know, and acknowledge the differences, but then not be so, uh, entrenched and triggered, uh, you know, the wave exists and so instead of like fighting it or being mad at it, like like it's it's there. It's beautiful. Let's let's let's let's surf the fact that this keeps happening and that um that each generation is is repeating itself in their own way. >> Uh >> but you know I I it's easier to say than do for sure. >> So you've been writing now for 20 years. >> Almost 20. Yeah. I think I moved out here 2008. Uh yeah. I don't Time I don't understand time. >> Yeah. Wait till you get to be my age changes. Um, your first job was in the NBC page program. Is that right? Like when was your first like break break, you know? How long did it take before you were like, "Oh, I actually think I might be able to have a career." >> I think it was two two mini one mini break and then one big break. Uh, the mini break was getting into the NBC page program. Um, you know, I was unemployed and just kind of temping in New York and a friend of mine, I I lived in Greenpoint back then. Uh, and he was concerned for my mental health because I literally Greenpoint back then was just not gentrified yet. It was fully Polish. Like you couldn't find a grocery store that was like ingredients in English, you know. And so I never left the home. I just stayed in my apartment and watched the OCE over and over again. And uh, he was starting to get very concerned about me. So he slipped my resume without me asking to his friend who was in the page program. And surprisingly, I got a call for an interview. I didn't take it seriously. I was 15 minutes late to the interview. And uh somehow miraculously, I got in. And that was my first real exposure to the entertainment industry. And sure, I was like wearing a peacock tie and giving studio tours for $10 an hour, but I I caught the bug. I was like, I can't believe there are jobs in this world. Out of that, I got a job at the Today's Show. Truly hated it. lovely people, but my hours were like 1:30 p.m. to 4:30 a.m. Um, which is the opposite of everyone. So, I used that weird schedule to then uh I had a writing partner back then. We we just started teaching ourselves how to write. We would watch shows, read books, and every weekend instead of going out, we would sit down and, you know, try writing scenes together. And eventually, we wrote a pilot about the page program and sent it to friends. Then one of our friends, Lynn Barry, who used to be at the Today Show. She was an assistant to Jeff Ingold, who at the time was the head of NBC comedy, uh he he runs uh Bill Lawrence's company now. And he was so gracious. He read it, called us, and was like, "Hey, I just bought a pilot about the page program, and this script's better. Like, do you guys have agents?" And we said, "No." And he's like, "You know what? I'm going to call every major agency on your behalf." And suddenly we had like CIA, William Morris, Endeavor, just everyone calling us. And so we took a week off work, uh, flew out to LA. I remember my then riding partner didn't want to do this, but I was hellbent on splurging like an extra couple hundred to rent a Mustang convertible. Uh, cuz I wanted to like ride around Beverly Hills with the top down and feel like, you know, I was in the industry. And we went with the fanciest agent at the time who repped like all of the office and Vindy Kaling and all the scrubs writers and uh he told us to move out to LA by upfronts which was May 15th I think and we did and then everything went to [ __ ] It was just like >> [clears throat] >> uh couldn't get meetings, agent would wouldn't return our calls and then next thing I know I was unemployed and temping again in LA. Uh, and it wasn't until, you know, we got a new manager. Somehow our scripts ended up on the table of, uh, Rob, Charlie, and Glenn at It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and they brought us in for a general meeting. It lasted 10 minutes. I was certain we didn't get it. And then we got the call and that was like the true big break. Like, >> so that was your first writer's room? >> First writer room is my favorite show on television. I couldn't believe I was getting to hang out with Rob Charlie and Glenn every day in the writer room. They're like the nicest, best guys. Uh, still to this day, I'm I'm like Glenn Howardton's one of my closest friends. And, uh, that was a real 360deree education cuz those guys do everything. They write, direct, act, produce. And that became like the foundation for what I do. Like I kind of joke with the beef writers room sometime that if Always Sunny and beef are actually like really similar. Uh it's just always sunny is like the the broaden the comedy broadness just cranked up to 12. But it's usually like something small and annoying happens [laughter] and then everyone acts out of ego on always Sunday and then you know it gets worse and worse and worse. And that's really like the formula for beef. It's just um we take the tone and just dial it down a little bit. >> Yeah. >> When you're collaborating with so many people on a television show, tone is everything. Like and you're not you I mean you you did your first >> director gig in the finale of season one, right? And then you directed three or four episodes in season two. >> Um but you're not directing every episode. You're the showrunner. You're the you're the headwriter. You're responsible for the tone. But there's hundreds of people working on this show. like you have to be a general like to to like make sure that everyone is making the same show. >> Mhm. >> And you can't control everything like how do you ensure that? >> Uh just so many hours of talking. Um and and a lot of like analogies I find are very helpful because like it's so hard to like get someone inside your brain. And so I'm just trying to always find words and analogies and formulas. Yeah. season one of the writer room, I came up with a a tone formula that I told the room kind of as a joke, but then it started to get serious and we stuck to it where I said that the beef tone should be 35% early Paul Thomas Anderson/sopranos comedy where you're laughing at the broken psychology of someone plus 35% like Netflix bingeability white lotus water cooler moments like Finchure Propulsion plus 30% uh Ingmar Bergman/Hiroakada warm melancholic paos [laughter] and like and like the warm melancholy was key. Uh, and uh, we had that up on on our Zoom a lot and anytime we looked at a scene, we'd kind of try to make sure like, okay, are we hitting the percentages? Like, does this scene we we just had a scene that was really propulsive? Like, should we make sure that this scene has sort of that that Ingar Bergman posing season two, uh, I I just, you know, tone-wise gave that same formula to everybody. >> Yeah. And it feels like A24 could is the only like home for this. There's something about A24. It's like you know it when you see it. Yeah. >> You can't quite put your finger on it. It is tone. It's sensibility. It's aesthetic. >> Um >> but it's real. >> It it is real. I mean, uh, you know, people there's been a lot of, uh, articles and being written about how they're like now just like, you know, they're more merch than creative, etc., etc., which sure, I think that's just a testament to how good their marketing is. Like, their merch is great. Uh, but at the end of the day, the reason they have so much success is still the creative. it. I think they have people, you know, Ravi Nandan, who's the head of um A24 television. I actually knew him from when I worked at NBC. >> Uh he was a producer on this like really broad bad pilot that I wrote for NBC in 2009. >> And then we kind of like kept in touch over the years. And then as he got to A24, we just had sushi to get like reacquainted. And I was telling him about this road rage incident that I had gotten into. And I was like, I don't know. I think there's like a show here because like there's something so funny about being trapped in like a literal mechanical bubble and you're just like in your own subjectivity. No idea what the other person's going through. >> And he right there he was like, "Let's do that show." And I was like, "Really?" He's like, "Go off. Like, who do you want to have in it?" I was like, "Well, I I've always wanted to work with Steven Young. He's one of my good friends and we've been trying to find something together." He's like, "That's brilliant. Let's attach Steven Yan." And so there's this other places where you'd have to go through so much red tape and like, oh, that's interesting. Let's develop it and, you know, blah blah blah blah. When they feel something, they move, you know, and they really trust the artist's instincts, too. It's less about like them trying to prescriptively tell you what to do. It's more like, oh, you're passionate about that. Let's find ways to support it. You know, even now there's this one idea. I mean, Robbie and I are such so close friends now, but I was on the phone with him. I was telling him about a project that I'm not doing with A24 and and I was telling him about the world and he was like, "Oh my gosh, that's fascinating. Let me hook you up with my friend who actually runs the biggest company in that in that industry and uh you should like, you know, get close to him and do like a tour or something." Like that's someone who is just acting from like a pure artistic place. Uh, and you hear it time and time again with people who've worked with them. Like it's just like u it's different for sure. >> Yeah, >> it's definitely special. Uh, I think people are concerned. They just raised a bunch of money. What does this mean? You know, is it going to stay the same? Is it going to be different? You know, the A24 Bros. uh, you know, vocal. They're a vocal bunch. >> And it probably won't stay the same. It'll follow the same thing we've been talking about where it'll start in earnest. It'll grow. It's stagnate and then they'll have to change. But the fact that they like made back rooms, you know, like Kane Parsons is like 20ome year old a $64 million development deal 20. >> Yeah. Like no other place would do that. >> I think they are also evolving. >> Um and uh I I definitely like beef would not exist without uh Ravi and A24. That's for sure. you've spoken publicly about your early experiences in in writer rooms and some of the challenges uh that you had and this sensibility that that you were a DEI hire and kind of like oh well you know I'm not really a right like walk me through like that experience and then maturing out of that to you know kind of really inhabit your authentic voice like what did that take what was that experience like and what did you have to do to like you know own your confidence and your voice. >> In hindsight, I I I I think I get frustrated with my younger self because I, you know, I've relived some moments in writer rooms where there was one show I wrote on where there was a very stereotypical Asian character and a very cliche and the jokes just 100% of the time came at his expense. Uh, you know, I remember there was one the showrunner of that show like there was one um joke about that Asian character where it was about him eating a dog and you know everyone half the room was appalled by it but then the other half the room's cackling and the showrunner loves it and you know like he turns to me and to see how I feel and like in the moment I should have been like go [ __ ] yourself, you know, like I should have like stood up for for for myself for for that character. And then I just kind of like shrugged and I was like, "H, you know, like it's funny like you know, like I just kind of went along with it." And there was just so many incidents like that where inside I was dying, but outwardly, you know, you're afraid of losing your job, you're afraid of and and Yes. It's like uh I I I think should could I have been more uh courageous? Absolutely. But uh I I I acknowledge I wasn't in those moments. And um you know I I think I I have to live with that. I I but it you know I think a lot of writers of color um the stories that I share are just like tip of the iceberg. there's some horrible things that happened in these rooms if you're a person of color. Uh and we kind of the system was in a way where it was really hard to shake it up. Um I'm very grateful that in the last, you know, 10 years that so much progress has been made and so much change has been made and and a show like Beef can exist and like certainly behavior like that just will not be tolerated in today's writer rooms. But then like you look out at 2026 at society at large and then it does get scary because you're like >> a lot of progress has been made but then it also at times feels like we're kind of one step forward two steps back. Um, and uh, you know, speaking of generations, I do admire that about Gen Z. You know, uh I think that that Instagram, the social media thing is just I think a microcosm of uh for myself and my peers of my generation. There was so much outward validation seeking, you know, like so you're sitting in that writer's room, you hear this joke at your expense, but you are outwardly seeking validation that you belong here and that uh so you laugh versus Gen Z. What's so cool about what what they're doing is they're not seeking. >> They're having none of it. >> Yeah. They're just like, "No, like I'm here in this room to to build my career." >> Yeah. >> And we're not doing that joke. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> And guys like me are like, >> "Have you earned that confidence?" Like, first you have to do the work and then maybe I will like, you know, grant you that you should be here, you know? [laughter] >> Totally. But then but that's the thing is then like I I do find myself saying that as well. But then one of the younger writers that I uh um have kind of like uh I don't want to say mentored but um Alex Russell who's who's younger than me. I think he's Gen Z Millennial Cusp. Uh he's the moment I met him, he he is that energy where it's just like says what he wants, knows what he wants, very very secure in his tone, and it often ran against whatever room he was in, you know, but he didn't care. And uh I saw that and uh you know helped him get a manager and um for his debut film that he directed, Lurker, uh I executive produced it. Uh cuz I was like that guy is going to like create something that is so uniquely him cuz you feel that energy of like I don't care that you're older than me or that you're a more established producer. Like this is what I know. And and so it's been cool to see like even though like my instinct was like okay like dude I I had to like slum it in rooms for decades before I even had the opportunity but then like I process that put it aside know that there's talent there and try to like you know connect the right dots for him to you know he he eventually this amazing producer Alex Orski came onto the movie and and and took it to the finish line but generationally like how can we as millennials and Gen X not do the thing that the boomers did to us like um certainly it's normal to feel like they have to earn it but then how how can we change that you know um but again easier said than done >> yeah there's something awesome like I I just marvel at a young person who's walking around just brimming with confidence you know [laughter] it's just like how is that possible you know like I'm just like I don't deserve like I'm just my in you know inner monologue is just like just berating me constantly Well, did have you >> Wow, that's so like how did that happen, you know? >> Well, have you heard the study that um there's some study that came out that your inner monologue is just one of your parents' voice from a specific a year of childhood. >> And I think that's >> so I I think we probably have similar inner monologues, but probably like similar uh parent saying similar things. And I think Gen Z, a large portion of them have the opposite inner monologue because their parents were just like >> telling them they're just the best in the world. [laughter] Like, yeah, I'm the best. Of course, I'm supposed to be in this room. You know, that's what I've heard my whole life. >> Yeah. And now as a parent, I'm like, I don't know what the right approach is. You know, perhaps it's the middle ground, but um >> yeah, it's the pendulum. You know, it's swinging in its extremes and it has to find it, you know, its balance over time. So that's the spiral, you know, like trying to find its happy medium, I guess. >> Did you fall at all into the sort of gentle parenting as a response to a game before or >> Oh, 100%. Like I just, you know, it it was it's it was just a free-for-all with my like [laughter] for the like >> like I I'm also like an avoidant. I don't want conflict. So like I'm not the I'm not a taskmaster you know and I'm I I suffered at the hands of like you know outrageous expectations that I could never meet and just you know this >> withholding of love and you know like the idea that it's conditioned upon like some degree of achievement in the world and all of that and uh and I wanted to alleviate that burden from my kids but I probably have gone too far in the other direction. I don't know. But like you also realize because now like my kids are older like and you you realize young when they're super young like they they are who they are. Like they come like especially when you have multiple kids and you realize how different they are. It has nothing to do with you. You just arrive >> like on some level fully baked and then now seeing them as young adults. It's like you're still exactly the same as you were [laughter] >> as a kid. And I think it's humbling because we have this idea as parents that we're that like like it's so critical like and parenting is important. I think parenting is like to be a healthy conscious parent is like really the most important thing you can do. >> Yeah. >> Um but at the same time you also realize you're just kind of like throwing guardrails up here and there and they're going to be who they're going to be. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So that sort of alleviates the anxiety of parenting a little bit. Certainly helps me a lot. Yeah, because you we you sort of t I feel like there was this myth of nature nurture and that how like it's sort of like 5050, but it certainly sounds like >> it's more nature. >> Yeah. I mean, I could I go back and forth. I don't know. You know, I think it's another Zen Cohen brain pretzel sort of thing that, you know, we're going to we're in a we're in a cycle of just, you know, trying to understand that forever. >> Yeah. >> Um but we don't have free will anyway, do we? So, who cares? [laughter] Um, you on that subject though, for, you know, a very long time you were Sunonny Lee. Like, it's it's only more recently that you're putting your, you know, original your your real um birth name on on your work. Like, when did Sunny >> become your name? And and when did you get to a point where you're like, "No, it's Leon Jen and that's how it's going to be from now on out." >> Mhm. I mean, I I was born with the name Lee Sung Jin and in Kore Lee is my surname. Uh, so many outlets like think Jyn's my surname. Uh, but I put Lee first because in Korean, uh, the surname goes first. That's why, >> you know, director Bong Jin Ho Bong is his surname and director Bakjan Park is a surname. Uh, so I was born with that name. Uh, and then sixth grade when I moved from Korea to Minnesota. Uh that's when um you know the name became an a daily issue because you know I had an accent and uh motan teachers had never seen those letters in that order before and so that every day in attendance they would like add new consonants as they called out my name. You know they'd be like Lee and people would laugh. I'd feel so embarrassed. And after like a couple weeks of that, I remember I was sitting at my desk in in class and there was like a paper like an assignment with and I I was just staring at the name portion and I don't know what came over me. I just wrote Sunny with an O for some reason. And it's certainly not like I had watched something with that name. I didn't like just watch Godfather or something. I was just like Sunny. That's what I'm going to go by. And I told my teacher, I told my friends and everyone was like that makes our lives easier. and I told my family and somehow it stuck from sixth grade all the way to probably I want to say like 36 37ish. Um, and I was perfectly content going by Sunny in my career. And then I think it was 2018, I want to say that uh I was getting coffee at Dogtown Coffee in Santa Monica and um I put in my order and they they read your order off of your credit card name >> and I'm just waiting and I was back in sixth grade all of a sudden cuz they read it wrong and then people around me laughed and then I like shrunk, grabbed my order and just kind of slunk out of there and I didn't like the way that felt, you know. I was like, why? I I am I'm a grown man and I am like reverting back to my sixth grade self because of my name. And I that year I think um uh Parasite was coming out. I was thinking about director Bong Jinho and director Pak Chanuk and like when people say those three syllables like one, no one's butchering their name and two it's just so cool sounding because they make cool stuff. And so I thought, well, if I start making cooler things and I go by my Korean name, maybe that'll help like offset the stigma of of these, you know, Korean three-cllable names in in Western culture. Uh, so I was writing on this show called Tuk and Birdie at the time, and I went to Lisa Hannah, the showrunner, and I asked her like, "Hey, I know it's probably an ordeal cuz you already have the credit set, but like can I go by Lee Hung?" and she very graciously like heard me out and I think they went through like a lot of trouble to change my credits in the in that show and and um then it kind of just stuck from there. What is the advice that you have for the young um you know Asian-American who's trying to put their impimeter on the world and establish themselves in whatever career it is that you know who who's dealing with that that kind of identity um situation >> from from my observation and again don't like broadstrokes but just in my experience I found with uh this next generation there there is that pendulum thing happening like uh here as well where >> in response to before a lot of Asian-American filmmakers are are leading with identity you know I get so many younger writers when like I go to like a you know panel or something being like you know I wrote my life story cuz I you know I want I want to like I'm proud of my identity um but like no one's into it like you know [snorts] what can I do like is it is it the system? Is it this? Is it that? And I'm like, look, that's awesome that like you there's so much in your life that you want to tap into, but you can't it can't just be identity, you know? Like you have to also think about craft. Like you have to get like really good at music theory before you, you know, are a studio musician. And I think right now like a lot of younger generation and not all but some are like well you know like okay I see that in the past we didn't get to express our identity so I want to just express my identity and go hard at that without thinking about okay how do I what vessel do I put that in like it still has to be entertaining you know there still has to be rises and falls in a shape and >> and when you ask when you kind of pointedly ask like oh like do you know about like 3x back structure. Do you know about like hero's journey? And a lot of them don't. It's like, well, okay, like instead of worrying about, you know, where's the tide turning at the network side, uh worry about what you can control, which is your craft. And so I think that that's it's the balance, you know, the middle middle ground of of having a strong sense of identity in your work, but also not forgetting that this is also a craft-based occupation. Mhm. [snorts] There's no end run around the work part of it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And the idea that just because something feels important to you, it doesn't mean that it's worthy of becoming broadly entertaining to other people. >> Yeah. I mean, that's why season one, like it wasn't just a show about Asian-Americans. It was within the vessel of Road Rage. >> Um something that universally everyone has done. Um, so it's just, you know, you do have to kind of, uh, find ways to hide the kale in the smoothie, so to speak. >> Is there gonna be a season three? >> Uh, you know, every season, much like I did with Thunderbolt, like I'm like, that's it. I'm done. [laughter] Uh, I think that's just like me processing. But, uh, right now at the moment, I feel like I'm done. Um, but you know if something if inspiration strikes like sure like I I can I can dust off beef. But >> you know in the moment like I am focused on X-Men. It's such such an important project and uh there's a couple other ideas I'm I'm you know developing uh under my overall deal. But um you know I you never say never uh I I don't know what what tomorrow will bring. >> Yeah. In the meantime, you've got the Emmys coming up. I hope you win all 16 or the show wins all 16. Should be 17. Kaylee Spain, >> I know. Honestly, should be 18. Phineas, too. I go, >> we didn't even talk about him and how how much the score informs um the character arcs and the narrative. He did an incredible job. >> I think he's and it just meets the moment perfectly. >> He's just such a brilliant composer. I I only want to work with him going forward. Uh, and I think it is I I was shocked that uh him and Kaylee did not get nominated, but you know that it's uh it is what it is and I think the work speaks for itself. Like uh both her and his score like is something that I think will be timeless. >> Mhm. Seemed like he really liked working with you. I love the podcasts that you do with the show. There's a lot of compan like television show companion podcasts. Most of them are terrible. >> Yours is really good. Like you're a natural at this. Um, it feels like, you know, everyone that comes on is like wanting to be there and the stories are fantastic. So, you know, for anyone >> who has enjoyed Beef, uh, you have the opportunity to do that deep dive. Uh, if you haven't checked out Beef, you're probably not still listening because you won't even know what we were talking about, but you should go watch it as soon as possible. Um, and this was a delight, man. >> Likewise. Thank you so much. >> I'm such a fan. And uh I just think you know you're just operating at an entirely different level like mad respect and I just enjoy it and I can go back and watch it and find more things and the richness of it you know is really special. >> No thank you so much. Thank you. >> So uh come back and talk to me again and if you ever want to screen anything here >> Oh absolutely. Yeah. >> It would be really fun to do a Q&A or something like that with you. >> Oh yeah. I would love that. Let's do it. >> All right man. Thank you. >> Thank you. Peace.