How Drum Sample Packs Are Created with Shawn Fields and Darrell Thorp

[Music] Hello and welcome to the Drum History podcast. I am your host Bart Vandery and today we are very honored to be joined by two incredible guys. We have Sean Fields and Daryl Thorp. Guys, welcome to the podcast. >> Thanks, Mark. Good to be here. >> Yeah. So, let me let me give a little quick intro here and then you we could talk for an hour about your guys' backgrounds, but um correct me if I'm wrong on anything. So Sean, um, you've got a long background in marketing, but for what's most applicable here, former VP of marketing for a bit at Sweetwater, which is super cool. Love Sweetwater. Um, you've done some amazing stuff. Looking at your your, you know, your background, >> a lot of early in the early 90s, 2000s creating digital like like the when back when bands had amazing websites, you won a VMA for the best uh what was it? The best band website or something like that. >> Yeah. nominated for this? >> I did. We haven't talked about that. >> We We haven't. Well, yeah. I'm not that interesting compared to your bio, but dude, come on. >> Well, the the cool footnote to that is I mean, it was only offered for the best artist website one year. That was at the the September 99 VMAs. So, didn't didn't get the award, but we were nominated. I think we were in uh for for the Smashing Pumpkins website. And I think we were in, you know, pretty good company. I can't remember. Oh, actually, I do remember. So I think the Chili Peppers won that year. >> Oh, cool. >> Yeah. So the Chili Peppers website and then I think Marilyn Manson was in the mix which at that time haven't looked at it recently was pretty damn cutting edge. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then you know I think David Bowie was in the mix and you'll have to look it up but uh definitely some really heavyweights. Some big heavy websites were like an experience and you would go and it would be all kinds of cool stuff. So anyway Sean, pleasure to have you here. Darl, you you're a hard man to follow. So, I did you last here because you are 10 time Grammy winner. Um, Beck, Radio Head, Foo Fighters, if as an engineer, >> but looking at your discoraphy, there's so many more. Um, I loved your recent Black Album video that you did uh with Gunner Olsen, which was >> Oh, thank you. >> I'm I become friends with Gunner through the show. >> Um, which is amazing. um Navy veteran RC helicopter enthusiast which little footnote there which I love. >> Hobbies.com people sorry >> there you go a little plug. So anyway all that being said we are here today to talk about Dramatica which is an amazing um drum sample experience library drum pack um that Sean you are the founder of and and I actually played drums in a video with Jason Nicks for your website a couple years ago. Um, but so first off, explain what Dramatica is so people don't know and maybe even the concept of what drum samples and drum packs are really because maybe people don't know. >> Yeah. So maybe I can kind of frame that uh around my sick obsession going back a long time ago and just always feeling like uh either I didn't have access to great drummers or the great drummer I did have access to was never available cuz he literally played in like five bands. So it was really difficult to get them to, you know, to come rehearse and and, you know, create new stuff with me. So this idea for a dramatica or automatic drums or automatic drummer really started, you know, I don't want to date myself, but probably in the mid '9s, mid to late 90s. And so I started capturing with that very same drummer I just mentioned, but with other really great drummers in my area, just kind of sampling their kits, sampling, you know, loops of them playing. And really just started out, again, as I, you know, said earlier, just as a way to uh to have as loops and just sort of in my back pocket as I was writing material for records and stuff and a previous life. Um, and then that sort of began the obsession of just and I'm not a drummer. I'm a guitarist and and singer, but that really started the obsession of of really just hyper sampling and and that's just really recording every nuance, every resonating piece in a drum kit, every articulation that the drummer plays. Um, and just going really head first into that whole process. I mean, it was a it continues to be a sick obsession because it's like I'm I'm chasing this elusive white buffalo. Um, you know, the the best sounding kid or the best drummer and there's always great drummers and great drum kits to explore out there. So, um, you know, I I guess it started there and then over the years again perfecting sort of my own techniques and listening and buying all of these other great libraries that popped up in the early 2000s and just comparing what I was doing really as a benchmark to say, "Hey, these guys are the gold standard or that loop pack or that drum sample pack." And again, just to continue on that path of, you know, in my spare time, just, you know, finding really cool studios, great drummers, amazing, you know, vintage or even modern kits and recording them. >> So, about 3 years ago, so you'd mentioned Sweetwater in my background. Um, I left Sweetwater. I was there almost what, two and a half, three years. And that's when I, you know, I I kind of synced up with Daryl along the way. And I just thought, you know, I'm going to turn this into, if I can, a full-time obsession, a full-time business where working with amazing people like Daryl um and some other folks that we're working with that we can talk about later, but um and really just kind of bringing some of the ideas that I've had over the years um bringing them to life and having again amazing people like Daryl mix them, record them. Um, which, you know, I look back and I don't want to get too far off path here, but I look back when I was, you know, just starting out in bands, you know, uh, even before I started sampling. I think what I my mission and our mission in Dramatica is to bring, you know, um, these amazing mix ready drum samples, instruments, so we're making virtual instruments as well. bring them to, you know, the 15-year-old that I was, you know, alone in my bedroom and just wishing that I had access to these amazing sounds and listening to the records that influenced me and thinking one day, you know, I'll have a drummer that sounds like that or I can go into a studio um that sounds like that. So, that's really at the core of what we do. It's to bring these kinds of tools, these virtual instruments and sample packs to every 15-year-old out there wishing and dreaming that one day they'll get to that next level. >> Well, I mean, perfectly that's very well said. But I mean, you you and you mentioned 15year-olds, like let's be honest, as you know, engineers here, like recording drums is difficult. It's hard to mix. It's hard to mic everything. it is quite possibly the most difficult thing to actually capture and sound good. So if you're starting at a point uh of having a great recording of a drummer, your song is, you know, 50% there, then the rest of it is is is put laying it on on top of that with um great instruments, which comes over to Daryl. So Daryl, your background is like I mean amazing albums, Taylor Hawkins, great drummers. >> Thank you. in the room. Yeah. Recording them for albums. Yes. Did you have any background in recording sample packs before linking up with Sean? >> Uh I've had one or two experiences where uh I'm so sorry. I can't remember the uh the pack that I did, but it it was interesting because that pack was more of a uh they were looking for loops more than they were like oneot hit type scenario. So, this was a little bit of a this was a different approach for me. >> Sure. Sure. And of course, I've always made my own sample library that I've had in my back pocket and not for uh programming purposes, but more for just mix enhancement situations and >> sweetening kind of sweetening kind of things. And then once in a blue moon, you know, the the the client of mine is is straight up, dude, that's the like the kick drum is just that's all I had. D feel free to replace it with something cooler, you know? Okay. Y So >> that's where my background is from really. >> Okay. I mean I um I didn't most people on the show who know this know that I worked as an audio engineer at a studio here in Cincinnati for years. I did some music. I did a lot more like movie, TV, radio, commercial stuff, voices. But when I worked on music, it would be like and I'm I'm the drummer playing on stuff a lot like a a jingle. I'd be like, >> "Enhance that bass drum, >> right? >> Put a different snare drum in on the chorus." Sure, >> go for it. I think it became more normalized and why not if there it's like these perfect >> recordings. Uh then why not beef it up a little bit, >> right? >> Yeah, you can there. So, honestly, man, there's two schools of thought. Uh there are some clienteleels who are or some clients that are purists >> and they don't necessarily they they don't mind spending the time because that's really what it boils down to. It is >> it can be yeah like for example the Foo Fighters first record that I did which was Concrete and Gold. I I mean I remember spending maybe a dayish on each drum part and it was a combination of is the snare right? Is the snare the wrong pitch? Is the snare the right instrument? Is the kick drum right? Is it the right instrument? Is it the right pitch? Is it the room situation? Does it need to be roomier? It was like a combination of all these things of the drum, uh, the tuning of the drum, the mic placement, where the drum was, and that was a day and sometimes longer of decision making. And then it was like, okay, we have the sound, and now we're going to actually start going for >> for takes. That's a timeconsuming process, which >> some people don't want to spend time like that. I completely It's like, no, dude, I got the song in my head. I want to record. I want to record. You know, okay, I get that. Or it's uh they maybe sometimes it can be a little bit of they don't have the experience to know why the kick drum sounds different when you just do a quarter turn on all the the lugs. >> Yeah. Uh >> was Taylor Hawkins picky about his drum sounds or was he trusting you? >> He It's funny, man. He wasn't. We we he we tell him like, uh, "Hey, Hawk, that snare is is not right for this groove." Okay. And he'd go to the lounge. >> Yeah. >> And chill. >> Yeah. That's interesting. >> Walk around the studio and talk to everybody is what he'd really do. >> Yeah. There's an episode that came out right before this, the gear of Steve Gad, which thank you to everyone for watching. It's been it's been really cool to see that. But but Paul Wells, who is on that episode, talked about how Steve would be like, I totally trust the engineer. And he's one of the biggest he's one of the biggest session drummers, you know, performing session live drummers in the world. He was like, no, I trust the engineer. So that's got to be, you know, nice to have Dr. >> You know, it's usually I always I know what I hear and I like, but at the same token, I'm always referencing with what the producer because ultimately it's the it's the producer and the artist that have usually had the conversation maybe in the control room or at breakfast that morning about what do we want this song to be? And so sometimes the producer will articulate to, hey, Darl, this is a big live drum sound. Okay, but it's it's can be as vague as that. So, is it a big live drum sound with a piccolo snare or a bell brass that's cranked to hell? So, it's just like, you know, >> Yeah. >> cutting like a laser beam. >> Are you a drummer, Darl, or are you just a guy who knows? You're just an allaround. >> So, dude, honestly, the biggest I'll I'll I'll throw him the biggest prop I can. Um, my very good friend Joey Warer. Joey T started producing artist bands early 2000s. He was trying to go he was trying to see if and quite frankly he was very good at it. But some of the projects he would play drums on but then some of the projects we did together they were bands. So he was the producer and watching him, oh, I know what's wrong, and walk out there, grab a tea towel, grab a different snare, grab a key, drum key, and do a little crank, crank crank, and put it down there, and the drum would sound drastically different. >> Yeah. >> I It was just like I was getting paid to watch this and absorb all this in real time. >> Amazing. Yeah. And it's t I learned a lot. And then I've learned a lot from other drum techs uh about tuning. I've learned a lot just from drummers watching them play, how they play, how they hit, what tuning you can get away with, uh what tuning you can't get away with with to particular styles. >> Sure. Because it's to me it's I want the artist to be comfortable first and then I'll get what I can get secondary. >> Yeah. because you're gonna get the best quality from a good >> thinking about getting that mic which I mean I usually do a mono overhead and I try to go like Joey for example and then my uh like my friend Victor and Drizzo and uh Blair Cynth I can put a mic like right here and it doesn't bother them. >> Y >> uh but like Taylor, he was >> he's he was all over the place. >> So he was like, "Dude, I don't want to hit it." And I was like, "I don't want you thinking about not hitting it. I want you in the moment. >> Yeah. Interesting. Well, your attention to detention to detail, but it's also a luxury working on such big albums to have that kind. >> I'm sure you know that. Yeah. Which is great. >> Lucky lucky lucky mofo here. >> Yeah. But throwing it back over to Sean. Obviously, the thing the the thing I want to talk about with you guys to kind of, you know, uh everything we're we've mentioned so far, all this these skills got put into your new project, the Black Oyster Kit. So, >> which is interesting, too, cuz this whole thing I'm going to put it in the frame of like drummers may not be the audience who are going to go out and buy the pack because they're drummers, right? >> So, I love going at this from an angle of like >> how would how is this made? How did drum packs get created? How are they recorded? What is it? What's the idea? So, for starters, just tell us about it. I think Black Oyster Kit, we all have one drummer who comes to mind, Ringo Star, but it's that 60s sound. So, tell us about the Black Oyster Kit. >> So, the Black Oyster Kit, um, maybe just going back a bit, the the idea that kind of sparked this was I mean, actually, if you're not familiar with Sweetwater, which is again where I worked for a couple of years, it has an amazing campus. So, it's a music retailer. If you're not familiar, you should be because they have amazing, you know, an amazing selection, amazing service, and um at their core, they're just, you know, they started out small and grew to this huge I think they're number one, I think they're the biggest North American online music retailer. So, they're huge and they treat every c, you know, it's not a plug for Sweetwater, but they do treat every customer, you know, very special and they take care of you. Um, so anyway, while I was working there, um, the campus is like a destination. It's like a Disney World for musicians. And Darl, I think you've been there before, haven't you? >> Uh, yes. I've been to Sweetwater several times. It's It's an amazing campus. >> It's a great campus. And so, all of that said, there is uh a really cool studio, worldass studio there. So, I would literally while I was there just spend my evenings instead of getting into trouble, which I would admit probably the first year I was there, I was probably getting into trouble and doing stupid stuff. Um, but I'm joking. Um, I just kind of realized, you know, my second year there, I'm like, you know what? I've got access to an amazing studio and great people that work there and great equipment, vintage and modern equipment. So, why don't I just, you know, again, continue to pursue this obsession and see what we can do with it. So, um, there was a modern Lwig uh, Black Oyster kit available to me one particular evening. And, uh, so I just, you know, I brought it into the studio and brought a a whole slew of complimentary add-on pieces, which is what we offer in the um, the commercial piece, the instrument, and the sample pack. and we just recorded it, like I said, with using, you know, the process that I I typically utilize. And so Daryl wasn't there for the recording of that. But what was interesting, I'll go back to what he was saying earlier about the setup and and all that. I literally had Daryl on a couple of uh FaceTime calls where I'm showing him the drummer and the kit. And Daryl is actually placing microphones and saying, you know, here's the poke mic. you should put it here and you should >> we had a Kohl's 4038 and he was like yeah we'll put it here and just adjust it you know and so totally tapped into his expertise you know what four five 600 miles away maybe even that where we were but so that's where the idea started so we had um you know this amazing kit with you know such uh you know a rich history as you mentioned I think most people do identify that kit with uh with Ringo the star. It was a smaller kit back then, so the modern versions are a little a little bigger. And so, you know, kind of to wrap it all up, uh I wanted to kind of hear this kit through like sort of modern ears and what a modern audience, um guitar players, singer, songwriters, even some drummers too would want to hear this kit. So, that doesn't mean you can't play, you know, a traditional 60s Beatles kind of backbeat on it. In fact, you can. But there was a lot of emphasis and I know and Daryl can speak to his mixing approach to it as well when he and I started talking about it. Really wanted this to be a rocking drum kit. And not only for myself, I wanted to use it and enjoy it. But you know lastly I think there is an amazing amount of tools in the market for those 15year-olds or 25 year olds or 30 whatever for musicians these days to choose from. There are a lot of heavy metal drum libraries as you probably have seen and you know there's just a lot of choices. What I wanted to do is kind of cut through that and say, "Hey, if you just want an honest rock and roll drum kit that really sounds amazing." >> Yeah, >> this is the kit. This week's episode is brought to you by Claw. How many times have you looked down midset and realized your bass drum slid forward 6 in? It's frustrating, right? That's why there's Claw, the small but mighty kick drum anchor that keeps your bass drum exactly where it should be. 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I look at it too and I know your marketing background and I now, you know, for the last couple years have pivoted from production to working in marketing. >> Yeah. selling a kit like a a pack that is the Black Oyster kit that is connected with one of the most iconic drummers drum sets eras in rock and roll history. It that's smart and as opposed to you know Lwig rock and roll drum kit. It's like, no, it's the finish is just absolutely iconic of these drums and it it gets you >> it it's there's good pictures. There's it's it's well produced everything about it. So, from a Well, that's your background, though, is creating like user interfaces and experiences. >> So, I think you've you've really brought everything uh into one project. >> Well, I appreciate that. I I do want Darl to talk about sort of his his process and and um and mixing this. Well, I'll just say just lastly, again, I keep saying that, but when you mentioned guey in that experience, so we have two experiences that users can, you know, can check out. There's the virtual instrument, which is a totally playable kit. So, you can play that on ekit, you can play it on drum pads, you can play it on your keyboard keys, however you want to play it. Um, and then there's the, um, the special edition sample pack, which doesn't have as many of the, you know, add-on pieces and such, but for all intents and purposes, it's that kit. It's the same set of samples that Daryl mixed, right? So, you have the individual microphones that you can adjust. You hear the sound of Sweetwater Studio A, you hear that room and it's great. Um, but the guey itself in in the uh virtual instrument was designed very intentionally to be easy to use. So a guy like Daryl gets around these huge multi-channel consoles every day and he knows them inside and out >> for most users, you know, and at least with some of the research that we did sort of formally and informally at Sweetwater, I know that users want particularly a certain type of user, they want something easy. I think most people just want easy, right? I don't want to have to work for something. I just want to create. >> So, you'll see in our in our interface and Bart, I'll send you if you haven't seen it or I'll send you some screenshots of >> Yeah, I'm looking it on on the website dramatica.com and then products. You'll see it. There's a Steve Albini one which another conversation for another day. But that's then if you scroll down a little bit, you'll see it. Uh, beautiful. Yeah, >> thank you. Yeah, we just made it easy as possible and that was that was the key. So instead of multiple screens just to get to, you know, that channel or this channel, it's all right within the kit piece itself. So the kick and snare share a screen and the toms have their own. So so on and so forth. Yeah. >> Amazing. And then just so terminology, gooey, cuz people might not know that graphical user interface. Correct. People might be like, >> are we talking gooey? Like there's slime on this thing or something. No, I just figured someone out there might be like, what the hell is guey? >> Absolutely, >> Darl. So, okay, let's take it. So, so it's recorded. This Black Oyster kit is recorded at Sweetwater Studios. You've assisted kind of virtually, you know, a tea, your tea engineering, >> you get all of the files. Let's start there. How many tracks and record I mean, what did this look like when it came to you and what did you do from there? >> Well, it wasn't a I it wasn't that many tracks. It was kind of like just your more of a typical rock, I guess, recording drum setup. Kick in, kick out, snare top. Might have been two instances of snare drum, like snare top, excuse me, snare bottom. >> Yep. >> Hat, toms, overheads, mono overhead, stereo, and then room. And I think there was most of the time, wasn't there was a close room and a far room, I think, Sean. Right. Yeah, that's right. >> So then it was just a conversation with Sean about, okay, I got all these mics, but then how how much am I stemming down to deliver to you or am I keeping it all separate? So, I I developed a like a routing system where I could mix each individual mic as I would a a multi-track song, but also be able to stem these downs into just kick in and snare top where the all the mics would be summed >> and or have the option of when Sean would call and go, "Hey, I need this separated." Okay. So, that I can rerun it. that kind of thing. >> And then the processing would be done on kick in, kick out and not and you'd have it. I feel like working smart and not working smarter not harder is >> it was a little bit. I mean, it's almost like I was trying to think about it as as uh cuz I've done many projects before where this is for like the Foo Fighters. I get calls once or twice a year where they're doing some sort of production thing and the the people are demanding that I deliver a stereo mix and stems because they're either going to split it out into a a 51 thing or they need stems because they need to do edits for picture or or just in that aspect. So, uh, I'm pretty familiar with my workflow of thinking, okay, that I should just treat this as a >> yeah, >> more like a a I'm mixing for film in a weird way because I want to give Sean like, oh, I just want to edit the kick. Okay, he's got both kick and in and out available. That's process. That's my processing. >> Yeah. >> And then at the same token, he had a stereo of everything. That was my processing. >> Got it. interesting. >> So we could pick and choose depending on what cuz because there was a lot of conversations going back and forth my first I think me being the first of all full disclosure I am not a programmer by any means of that and nor am I a songwriter >> it's a different >> it's a different brain it's a different mindset I have a bunch of friends that are programmers and or songwriters types uh they either make their living as producer songwriter uh types and I know uh you know a few of them off the top of my head they have just gigs and gigs and gigs of stuff they they pull from >> Yeah. which oh god just just >> tools tools in their tool belt >> tools in their toolbox that >> um and so the more conversations I had with Sean about because I was just thinking about this as a very one-dimensional like oh you're just doing sample hits you know and he was like no I'm trying to program a whole thing for as a a drum package for songwriting >> yeah and you want but like production >> looking at the um like the interface the guey if if you will. Um, on the website here, you also want to give the, you know, the programmer, the musician, the person in the doll >> chair, >> in the chair a lot of control. >> Yes. Which Sean, I talked about that a lot with Sean, mind you, I was just throwing ideas at him, not as a not as a programmer, not as a songwriter. I was throwing ideas at him. I was like, "Well, when I'm mixing multi-track drums, I need this, >> right? >> I want that." And he was like, "Oh, good idea. We can do that." >> Yeah. >> And then he would share with me iterations of the >> the the process of how it was coming along. And um uh it it was it was kind of crazy to see it all in one big fancy freaking Christmas package at the end of the day. Quite frankly, like seen the light of it. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, it's like, "Oh I didn't realize this is what you're doing." Okay, sorry, dude. No wonder you don't answer my email for two days. >> Well, see, that's the thing. If I can jump in like these, >> and I know Darl and by the way, you know, I mentioned earlier that working with some amazing um other amazing amazing producers and engineers. And Brendan Dora is another engineer that's a friend of Daryl's, has amazing pedigree. Uh you can look up his bio. He is definitely a talented guy. and we have some new projects coming up before the end of the year as well. So, I want to give a plug and a shout out to Brendan as well. But, um, but that's the thing both with Brendan and Daryl kind of reached out to them around the same time. I think I reached out a little earlier to to Darl before Brendan, but regardless, I think that was my original intent and I think these guys, thank God they've been patient with me because the original intent was just a a sample pack and right and I I wanted to go as I heard these mixes from both guys actually in different projects. I'm like, "This thing deserves to be a playable instrument." And when Daryl was sending back these ideas, I just want to again call out like we're talking about parallel compression and doing all of these other little things that again are coming directly from Darl or from Brendan. >> And then these premixed, as he mentioned, the stereo renders, these are presets. I don't know how else to call them, right? not only in the snapshots or presets that you can get um within the kit itself, but the sample pack has these pre-balanced, premixed stereo versions of how Daryl and Brendan as well and his own kit how they would hear a mix. So, they're putting all of the room mics and all of the direct mics together as they would hear it. And we have both a natural and a rock version. So again, you can expect a rock version to sound a little louder. It has more compression or whatever all those mix ingredients are that Daryl sprink sprinkles in. But I just wanted to call that out because Daryl Daryl went that extra, right, to use and you're going to hear that and again in both the sample pack and the kit. So there are these other little mix ingredients that are really cool and unique. >> Yeah, absolutely. Um, this is like on topic but off topic, but I just have to ask. So Darl, I think it applies to this too. If you had to think of maybe top two, three, four things that you would recommend to drummers who are mixing their who who are a lot of people now are drummers/engineers doing everything. >> It's just like an allin-one thing. >> It's all in one. Let's say a couple your top three things that people can do today to make their drums sound better in the studio. And that could be mic level, performance level, that could be mix level. Just like what is the basic stuff that you're like, "Stop doing this. Start doing that and you'll sound 10% better right away." >> Tuning. >> Take some extra time in tune. >> Uh it's called a drum bot. >> Yep. Yep. Yep. And drum dial, which is the old more like the kind of the the um analog version. But yeah, you think you think that really >> Well, so okay. such a vague statement but uh first of all >> it's a vague question >> not yes and no okay there because there is the the the device the drum bot which is very inexpensive for what it is and you they give you an app to sort of figure out what you're looking for with uh the sound of your the sound you want your drums to be which it works really well. The problem is with experience unfortunately and over time I've realized that some instruments don't want to be like hey I'm not going to say it's not impossible but it's pretty hard to make a jazz kit sound like a Gretch powerstroke kit. >> Yeah. But it's important for the kit to be in tune with itself. >> With itself. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> So if all you have is a jazz kit and you're trying to get a big rock drum sound, then maybe it's it's a couple of tweaks with a tunebot to get the kit to be as best as you possibly can. Then it comes down to placement, mic placement with the drums. Um, and some of that I think is technique and some of that is taste. >> Mhm. >> So, it's really hard to say there. uh you know I've I not just myself but there's so many tutorials out there that are some are free some are paid for with uh engineers uh who are at the top of their game that have drum micing tutorials uh >> through >> uh mix like a pro or produce like a or sorry uh pure mix uh mix with a masters produce like a pro excuse me I biffed all that up Sorry guys. You know, it's some of the stuff is free on YouTube and some of the stuff is is uh paid for. So, it just depends on what your your budget situation is. I think that's a big key of of then third I think if you are really trying to work at something you if you do those first two things first then play a beat down through the whole song or a couple of sections of the song like the verse and the chorus whatever you want it to be then come back into your control room and your listening environment and listen to it. How does it sound? Does it sound dark? Is there too much symbols? Is the kick flabby? Does it need to be tightened? Is the kick too punchy? Does it need more extended low end? Does it need Does the snare need more crack? Is the snare choked? Are the toms ringing out too much when you play just a simple beat? Is it literally >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Which is an internal sign that the toms are not tuned correctly most likely. it. Now, once again, that's a taste thing because like huge rock drum, like I'm talking like metal, it's usually there's more of an open tuning on the tom. So, they ring [Music] >> and it's a part of it. >> Yes, that's part of the tone. >> Uh, but however, I've seen situations where that is a acceptable overtone in the the entire mix of the kit. uh put your headphones on, listen to it, just make a stereo bounce of that in the car and see how it hits you. And then if something's bothering you about it, whether it be one of those scenarios, then do a little research or maybe or just start or uh take a snapshot of where you at in some way, shape, or form. That's the cool thing about a Tunebot is you can find a a pitch of a snare drum that you like, "Oh my god, this snare sounds so good right now." You can take a snapshot of where it's sitting in tune. >> Yeah. >> And if Oh, I broke a head. Okay. You put a new head on and you crank it back up and you tune it to the same exact pit and you crack it again. It's like >> cuz once again, some instruments don't want to live in certain tunings. They just it's it's like taking a guitar and dropping it down to >> C. It's just it the intonation goes out of whack. It's the same variable. >> I think in general that's those are three amazing points. I think in general too being in a studio having a reference either be it a drum set that you like a snare that you like a full track that you like having reference tracks that you can AB >> is enormously important and I didn't know that for years until I started pulling in tracks and realizing I am nowhere near this and then you could >> mold it to be closer cuz if you're going for something then go for it. >> I'm all about if you're going for something go for it. if you don't quite know and you you're not quite comfortable about making that decision right then and there or sort of committing to yourself um you know about the the choice of what type of drums are we going for in this song starting process then you know then okay then make the drums as good as you can without really >> cornering yourself into a corner but at the same token I've also worked in schools of thought where I I remember specifically Ally one day on the Foo Fighters. It was it was uh medicine at midnight. We spent the same thing a day on the drums and started cutting drums and did all the takes and da da da and I comped it and we did it to tape and dumped it in and blah blah blah and I was all this work and suffering and then somebody goes I think I think Dave said I think the pattern's wrong >> and and I was in my mind I was kind of like oh crap >> but >> that's the foundation. So you have to redo it because you're building on it. >> Taylor was like, "I'll replay it." >> Yeah. >> Like nobody was like, "Oh my god, we have to replay." It was just like, "I'll replay it." >> Yeah. >> But see, if you you know, if you're I mean, it's excellent points. If you're making a sample pack, correct? >> And you want to do your own sample pack, you'll know that. So you were talking about the reference hits. Darl will tell you in our sessions, we always start out with those. What's a great center snare hit, right? Center of tom. And we start there because, you know, you've got a drummer that's going to be sitting behind the kit for hours, you know, hours just on the snare drum. >> So, and they're just constantly and the harder they hit. And again, if it's a a harder hitting sample pack where you want it more rock or metal, >> you can expect that that snare drum to go out of tune multiple times through through the three hours that you're doing that. So, >> didn't think of that. The logistics of >> All right. Now, I do have to ask about logistics stuff on that note with like >> um >> well, first the I've always wondered this. So, Sean, how does this work with sample packs loops and beats legality and licensing and all that? I mean, how does that how does that work? If this is if this ends up on a Taylor Swift song with the, you know, album that just came out, how does that work? >> Well, we get to say, "Hey guys, we did that, right? That's it. That's about it." because, you know, we want to make these sounds royalty-free. So, now obviously other commercial providers can't use those sounds to to benefit off of, you know, those sounds and then, you know, recreate or make derivative works. That's kind of the legal ease stuff. But artists are free to use those sounds. Again, that's why we make these things. That's why other companies make these sample packs and loop packs. It's to to foster that creation and and spark that creation. So, it's royalty-free. So, if you've got a chart, you know, a best-selling song as a result of Daryl's stuff on the Black Oyster, then let us know cuz obviously we're proud of that. But otherwise, we're not getting a royalty. >> Please let us know. Please. >> Yeah. But I wonder there's got to be something to it of like if it's a little bit recognizable beat as opposed to like a two four, you know, money beat where like then the first one to use it and blow up using that that sample then it's like >> it becomes known as that >> if that makes sense like when the levy breaks kind of it's like >> well that's the loop part of it and I wouldn't claim um obviously to be an attorney and know that sort of copyright law. I know it from a 20,000 foot up and I know that you have a little bit more freedom in doing that. Obviously, you can't create a loop and say this is the that loop because then you get into song title copyrights and stuff like that, but the beats themselves as I understand it >> in the US about that. Yeah. So, um yeah, it's it is an interesting uh topic to to talk about and think about the whatifs. What if that particular I mean I think we've all done that at least people who have used loops. I I started back in the day, if you guys remember, there was a company called Sonic Foundry that did acid loops. And I think they created that whole format of wave files that were stretchable and you could kind of, you know, stretch to a tempo without much degradation. And this is like in the late 90s. They were pretty kind of cutting edge for the time. And anyway, I remember, you know, me and all of my friends couldn't wait to get our our hands on their latest sample pack. And they had some really really good ones. And it was funny because within about two or three years after they came out, they had multiple libraries, I could just listen to, you know, other people's music, you know, at least on the local level, and I would hear these same blues, right? Because, you know, if they're good, people want to use them. I guess that's the point. I think it's, as an artist, I don't want to get too far off topic, but as an artist, I think it's up to the artist. That's the artist's challenge is to take that that we know is going to be used by others and make it our own. So, it's the um you know the all the extra things we can do to that beat to make it unique. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, uh I mean I think the the BeeGees did it three times. Same drum loop and same drum loop. >> Yeah, that's right. I I remember watching that documentary and kind of hear wasn't it Staying Alive? >> Staying Alive was the same loop as uh shoot >> Night Fever. >> Night Fever. It's just a different tempo. >> That's right. >> Cuz they didn't want to like let have their long time drummer >> had to leave. he had some sort of uh family emergency or family thing going on that was well known. So they had him just play >> a couple of random grooves because they haven't gotten to the song yet. >> Um and then then Okay, so rabbit hole to even the crazier story is is Toto was in Florida working next door and you've got Jeff freaking Picaro. Why does Jeff Picaro need to do a drum loop? He doesn't. But they were hearing what was coming out of Deiji's room with the drum loop thing and the just the way it made a song feel. So Africa is a drum loop. >> Wow. >> Wow. I didn't know that. >> There is a bit of a robotic >> but the loop itself is a loop but then overdubbed the you know that's where it makes it go oh my god it's maybe this isn't a loop. Maybe it's just Picaro is Picaro. sign of the times though where they're like well this is popular now so Jeff Bricaro you're doing a drum loop even though you're literally >> idea >> yeah ex like >> which is band going >> why >> I don't know >> why do you know who you are >> yeah do you know who you are >> um how does this all work like are we allowed to know who the drummer was playing on the kit for the recording or is that like a we don't talk about it kind of thing >> we used um a couple couple of different session players and the session players were sales engineers actually or sales reps at Sweetwater. So those were the guys that were in the trenches and they were the ones that you know Daryl thinks that I've tortured him over the course of three years in this I tortured the drummers. It was the drummers who took it. Um, and look, they were troopers, but those were the guys that were there, you know, usually night sessions, right? And we would go six, seven, eight hours, sometimes just on the on the snare. >> Yeah. So, >> there's a lot of wax in one. >> There are a lot for sure. >> Session, >> sales engineers. I love my Ryan Clapper is my Sweetwater sales engineer where it's like I I know you know these guys, >> I'm like friends with them. Yeah, >> those those guys are all amazing musicians. It's, you know, again, we'll talk about Sweet Water. >> Like a frustrated drummer trying to sell you a Lon audio microphone, >> right? >> You're going to buy this, Mike. >> I've been up all night with Sean recording one snare hit. I'm tired. >> Well, they can probably blame me for those call-ins the next morning. Yeah. >> But it was funny though at the end of every session, and I would always I would always record it as well, but at the end of every 3 hours of whack, whack whack. >> Yeah. >> Finally, you hear, "Okay, I think we got And then they go >> and yeah, they're like exploding. >> Second win. >> Wow. So that's what it is though is I mean you're just Sean, you must have to have some uh a lot of patience. Um well, so do they they so does everyone involved need to paint dry. >> But you're going for like perfection. Well, that's you know they joke the um the session engineers the tracking engineers would joke because I let them I you know after a few sessions they were like we know exactly what you need right and so we always and again this is kind of a a blueprint if you want to do your own you always have to start with a sheet right that you distribute in the studio and obviously the drummers have to know how many hits of this and how many hits of that. So I have all of that again organized. So you have to always come into the to those kinds of sessions if you're wanting. >> So you were counting the hits. >> We count the hits, you know, depending on what articulation it might be 50 or 75 of just one velocity and there might be five velocities or even more in a snare. Um times more than that, but >> I'll be out about I'll be outside watching snow melt. Thank you. >> It's it is it is literally like watching paint dry but more boring. But can say is when I was printing this stuff, I'd be like, "Dude, I'm so glad I'm not chopping this shit." >> Yeah. Right. >> Wow. >> Well, I mean, yeah, the engineers would joke because I would, you know, I'd be just kind of looking down, reading, looking at my phone or whatever, and they were the ones on top of that, but if there was one, I would hear everything. If there was one weird whack or something, I need to do that again, or I need five more of that. >> Right. Right. Right. That happens all the time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I had um in my engineering days, like I said, doing voice stuff, it was uh not drum related, but I would record probably recorded seven or eight audio books, four days, 8 hour sessions. >> I had to redo a whole chapter cuz someone was had their arm up and their watch was ticking in the U87 and it picked it up. So, we redid a whole chapter. Um, but the the the similar to this, it sounds like the whole the really really really really hard part was not losing your focus after 6 hours, right? And not falling asleep and keeping your little marker on your pen and um so kudos to everyone involved because >> yeah, and for that matter for anyone uh whatever their role is in in recording a loop package or a sample package or an album like Daryl does all the time. I mean, it's just a lot of work. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think we give we don't give those guys in the studio and the Daryls and the and the engineers and producers enough credit because it can be laborious. It is laborious. Uh my my take on that though is a little bit is uh my problem is is I work with really good musicians and the amount of times that I've been in the studio and I've pressed record on a drummer uh and and thinking of a couple of friends of mine and they've m literally made a mistake. I've screwed some file thing up 10 times more than they've did a bad drum hit. >> Yeah. It's, you know, and even then it's it's they've they've done a full take of a song that's four minutes long and they're like, "Darl, I screwed up on the second bar of the second chorus." >> Oh, did you? >> Yeah. Well, I forgot to hit record, so I screwed up even more. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, Darl, do you It's got to be kind of a fun working on these with Sean on your end of being in, let's say, in the studio and in your mixing, you know, you're mixing it. It's got to be a bit of a nice change from gigantic huge Radio Head, Beck, like all these huge albums. Is it a nice change to kind of just work on one instrument and then be done with it? >> Uh, yes and no. Well, honestly, yes and no. It's a little uh uh sometimes it gets a little monotonous and a little tedious in that aspect because I it it's it's funny because I think I think part of the process of what I enjoy doing the most and what I love to do is just the fact that I like to work on really good music and whether or not I think that it's going to be commercially successful or not, that's that equation is out of my mind because it just doesn't matter really. >> Sure. It's more about the fact that I'm I'm happy to be working on good music and uh and so uh but at the same token here's as as a engineer even tracking and or mixing I'm always looking at the sort of the big picture of a song and the it's it's basically I look at a song as a big big painting and So, how many strokes of colors can I get away with before the drums sound, you know, like diminishing returns? Like you've gone too far with it. That's once again, that's taste. >> Yep. >> So, I'm always uh well, I get the drums sounding good, then I put the bass in, and then because I put the bass in, now I got to make the kick a little bit bigger. And now I've got the kick big a little bit bigger. Now, the bass is sounding small. So, I got to turn the bass up a little bit. But now I added like two guitars. Now I'm adding two guitars, but then the snare is getting smaller. So now I got to beef the snare up. But then I beef the snare up, it's louder, so I got to turn it down a little bit. Then I add the vocal. It's that it's that game of building blocks or painting on a a landscape. So with the sample packs, it was a little bit more of I sort of thought about and we talked Sean mentioned the natural and the sort of mixed tonality where I I thought about more of a a simplistic approach where I would just get really good drum sounds. They were nice and tight and punchy. There was no kind of frequencies in the in the in the the makeup of the kit itself that was bothering me. And I would control all that versus EQ or compression or whatever the case may be. >> And I would just think about the fact that well, if I started add bass and or a couple of guitars, I'd be in a pretty good spot. I know I'd make adjustments. >> And so then the conversation came up with, well, let's let's do a more of a a mixed thing where it's like, I'm going to make the drums as big as I possibly can and as punchy, loud, bright, maybe even too bright. quite frankly. >> Sure. But they can pull the whole idea is people can eat later or if it's hey man that like once again the drums to me the drums and the bass are such a foundational focal point of a song. If your drums and your bass are small then your song's going to be small. And I'm not saying that as a bad thing because that becomes a taste thing. Is it really is it about you know do you want the song to be big? Well, if you really really are striving and you're working hard to making the song big and your drums and bass are small, your song's never going to feel big. But if you're working in the aspect of like, no, I want this like small kind of tiny garage >> sounding thing like everything's supposed to be kind of then it's like, okay, well then then go with the concept of like making your foundation smaller. >> Yeah. >> And then raw >> or raw. And then once again, if you're you get to the end road and you're like, h this isn't working for me, you can go backwards and change all that. >> Uh you know, the other thing to to to throw it into caveat, I'm seeing people you and dude, >> uh there is no right or wrongs and there's no right or wrongs in song making. There's no right or wrongs in artistry. That's the cool thing about what we do. It's always about personal taste and it's always about your workflow and what makes you feel happy with how your things progressing with your your song. You're producing a song or writing a song. But I am seeing a trend with more and more people where uh let's say the drummer is in the studio with the band and the drummer might not be the engineer but the band is sort of self-producing themselves. I'm seeing instances where they are saying, "Let's grab a sample pack like Dramatica with the guitar player who might be the cordal or musical songwriter of the band and they're writing parts together and programming all the everything." >> Oh yeah. >> And then once it's like that feels freaking great, the arrangement feels great, da da da, then the guitars come in and start laying down. bass, >> maybe start singing on top of it. >> Dude, this is feeling so good. We just like the arrangement. We like the length. We like the groove of the drums, how they're like the the actual uh part of the drums. Okay, now you get to go in the studio and just play it. >> Yeah. Or they say, "Screw Jerry. He's kicked out of the band. We love dramatica. We have demoitis and we don't need a drummer anymore." It's a scenario of you you mute the the program drums and you go out and you play a real kit because you have something sonically in mind. >> Yeah. >> And you do it and you perform it and it sounds good and it feels good, but it's like, you know what, man? I don't know if that's the the kick might be a little bit too tiny for what we're trying to do here. >> Yeah. >> But the kick and the dramatica thing was actually feeling really Well, let's lay them together. Okay. And >> as long as the drummer is good on a click, then Yeah. >> There you go. >> Yeah. Well said. Yeah. Um, all right guys, as we get close to wrapping up, I have, you know, one or two more final questions. Actually, this will go to both of you guys, but I want to start with Sean because yours is more drum sample pack related, and then Darl, I want to get your take on this, uh, for the the broad music industry, engineering, recording, uh, world, but do you see AI being involved in sample packs? Um, just like plugins, all this kind of stuff in the future, how do you see that, you know, where is that going from here? Absolutely. Yeah, it is. It's it's beyond a buzzword. It's it's real world right now because there are a few apps out there already that are are helping people write songs and some of it's really convincing. I think if so my opinion about this is that I it's still a ways to go. We're actually incorporating some of that in nextgen dramatica stuff. >> We we would be foolish if we didn't. >> Correct. Um, sure. >> I think the vast majority of the AI that I've seen for music creation, it doesn't mean all, is primarily kind of leaning into more electronic music. So, you've got the 808 kicks and the 909 snares. And that's fairly, and I say this air quotes, fairly easy to kind of generate. I think what the challenge is on the acoustic drum side is can you generate an AI acoustic kit that's convincing? And again, there have been some strides in that direction from some companies. >> Um, I think it's going to get there. It's not going away. And I actually think it's a fantastic, you know, development over the past few years in music creation. And I'm, as a musician myself or a wannabe musician, I'm really looking forward to seeing what that nextgen looks like. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's uh interesting because there's a fine line of like like a band putting out a poster for a upcoming concert. People are like, "You better not make it AI, but like you're encouraged in like in work and jobs and different things to use AI to make things easier." So, it's like it's this kind of like use it, but don't use it, but don't tell us about it. But, but we hate AI music, but actually that song's really good. I mean, Darl, what what do you think, man? I mean, you're you're in the thick of all this. What's your thoughts? I once again I think everything's a tool. Um I I can't say who, why, where, why, but uh there was an instance uh was it last Yeah, it was last year. I had to think about the timeline of things. Last year I was working on a project and the project was uh funny enough is was the decision was made that nobody comes in with songs written. Okay. Sure. Um, not my way to work, but okay, we were there. >> But one of the band members had had spent some time dorking around in AI and came up with a couple of cool quarter crushing ideas and a cool drum pattern idea and you know, we just sat there and listened to it and mapped it out in real time and then the band went and played it. Came up with an arrangement in the studio and then and a couple hours later it was a song. >> Yeah. >> Okay. I can see >> interesting technique. AI to real. >> AI to Yeah. AI AI to real. Um I think that you know um hey man honest once again I'm not a programmer. I can I figure it out? Sure. Do I need some time to figure it out? Yes. But if I could open up the next version of Dramatica with cuz I have an artist sitting right here next to me and I'm working on her new record, but yet the band isn't in because it's like she has the songs. She's written the songs. Now it's just time for her and I just hash out some ideas about arrangement stuff and then the band's going to come in in a couple of days. Then, hey, if I could go, >> "Hey, uh, Siri, can you tell Dramatica to play >> uh, I don't know, some Beatles drum beat, I don't know." >> Yeah. Blah, blah, blah. And then it just programs it for automatically. And then it asks me, "What tempo would you like it?" And I want 110. >> I don't know. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. I get the um the other side of it with like I mean, I am a big AI user and the tools and making everything easier. I see the other side where it's the whole Spotify problems with songs and bands that aren't even real and they're getting a ton like the no one's getting paid anything. It's it's a slippery slope, but as a as a tool, you're spot on there where it's a tool to make, you know, you're going to get left behind if you don't use it at some point. >> Yeah. And there's more and more to to the flip side of the coin. I'm Isotope has never said this to me and I'll just say it publicly because I I think I can, but they've been using AI in their software for years now. They're just >> I've used the RX stuff for years and it's amazing. >> Talking about it, but there's something going on behind the scenes of the engine when you click look from noisy stuff. >> Yeah. >> Oh, I found it. What do you mean you found it? My voice as as people are listening now once this is mixed has RX10 on it. >> Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The description of this YouTube if you're watching this on YouTube the description for this and the timestamps will have been created with AI because it saves me >> Yeah. 40 minutes of just going through another friend of mine is a you is a YouTuber as well for different reasons. But uh he was I was like how do you reach you know um the the AI of uh uh uh uh transcribing for different languages. >> Oh yeah >> in real time. I was like what? Oh dude >> crazy. >> Yeah >> crazy powerful tools. >> Crazy stuff. >> Yeah. Um >> so the tools themselves are you know obviously amazing and spark that that creation and inspiration right. I think what's fascinating to me what Daryl said is that you whatever that engine is that you can tell it what you want exactly and again some of that's already here the voice ability that I'm hearing just within you know six months of each other where I sing a song but I'm using one of these apps to create a female version of what I've sung is is is getting better and better just absolutely convincing. >> Yeah. >> Totally. rebranding. You know, it's it's back to the the BeeGees thing for a minute. >> The reason Staying Alive came to life is because Barry was writing ts for females, >> pop singers, >> right? Right. >> So, think about that in the aspect of using that myself. Sean, I'm sure you're a tener as well. like, you know, singing in a tenor as a tenor uh key, but then thinking about writing a song for Taylor Swift or something where it would just be >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. You can't even get the idea outright. >> Well, you can't even get But but then again, is that going to is that going to start a whole new genre of musicality next week because we did something stupid like that? >> Mhm. Well, you know, again, going down a rabbit hole and Bart, maybe you guys have talked about this before. I mean, you could do a whole 10 episodes on Mut Lang and some of the things that he was doing. We talk a lot about his his drum work and his drum production and those innovations, but a lot of people don't talk about some of the background vocals beginning with, I believe, the Cars and, you know, on Heartbeat City, I think, the name of that record, and some of the, you know, other artists he's worked with. Well, they'll come out. Well, they'll say, "Well, that's mut on the background." And you hear that and you go, and this was 20, 30 years ago, and you go, "That is smooth and processed." And what the hell was he using? Cuz it wasn't just his voice. It was his bag of tricks that almost sound AI. So, if we were okay with that 20, 30 years ago, why is it why is it wrong to do it with our own voices now where we're just using that as another instrument? We might sing it one way and it's heard another, >> right? >> People get scared of the future. It's like Les Paul creating multi-track recording and playing it back and recording over it. And it's just like, >> you know, people are scared of uh, you know, TV because it's replacing radio and radio's replacing the newspaper and everyone old man, you know, shaking fist at the sun like >> Well, it's a little bit, you know, maybe it's a little bit more personal, Bart, because the internet came online. >> Yeah. And all of a sudden within a pretty several years the music business changed dramatically. >> Sure. >> Yeah. >> And so I think that's a little bit of the fear is >> I think you're right >> is AI coming in and changing it again. >> Yeah. Napster to I mean you know it could have been handled maybe a little bit differently but the Lars situation was like he was he was he kind of called it. Um, >> yeah, >> but didn't quite help the reputation there from the way it was handled. But, um, >> anyway, fellas. Okay. Well, good good discussion on on everything here. Um, Sean, as we wrap up, why don't you tell people where they can find, um, Dramatica, social media, all that, and then we'll and then Daryl, we'll hop over to you and we'll wrap things up. >> Yeah, you can go directly to dramatica.com, and that's going to have all of our products. We're working with um other retailers right now um to offer the virtual instrument and probably some um sample packs as well, but go to dramatica.com. That's going to have everything. There's a really cool Q&A, by the way, with with Daryl, so you can check that out as well. Um yeah, so that's that's where people can find it. As far as the socials, um I don't even know half of the names, but I think uh it's it's mostly uh at Dramatica Drums. if you go to piece of >> paper. Yeah, I think just start there. We we've got a uh a bunch of videos that we need to upload to our YouTube channel. So, we're really just getting started. So, apologies if you search for us on socials. You're really not going to find a lot for now, but we do intend to add more content soon. So, >> cool. And it's d r u m a t i ca dramatica. >> Dramatica. Y >> highly recommend it. Darl, where can people find you? And you know, >> best place to find me is if you just want simple information about myself. It's my website is darylthorp.com. There is a askdaryl button to reach out to me. It does go directly to me and not my team of people because I don't have a team. And uh I am on Instagram if you want to see me fly helicopters upside down. Uh that's RC helicopters upside down. It's uh dforp is my Instagram handle. Plus I do post about stuff that I can share. It's hard for an engineer to uh I can't walk into a studio and make a new record with >> the Beatles and go, "Hey guys, I'm with the Beatles right now." Like they >> Yeah. "Hey, look at this." You know, check me out. >> No, not until it's out later and then >> Yeah. So, it's kind of like I have to take photos and sometimes I don't think about it. I have to take photos and then I can, oh yeah, I worked on this. >> Yeah. I worked on a Trolls movie and it was when my kids are really, really little. The Trolls World Tour and it came out three and a half years later. Holy crap. >> Wow. >> Like 2017 is when I recorded it. Whatever it was, it was 3 years later and it was like I forgot about this. >> My son could care less about the stuff that I've worked on except for I told him that I worked on the music for a Minions short. >> Oh, there you Okay, that's cool, Dad. >> Okay, that's cool. Forget about Radio Head. >> Kids, they don't understand. >> Don't understand. >> All right, guys. This has been absolutely incredible. I've had a huge pleasure here. Um, again I for this is you know dramatica check it out but separately though I will put the link in it. The black album video that Daryl did with Gunnar is fantastic. I will put that in the description. >> That was a big big big learning experience for me. >> Yeah. Yeah. Huge. And you >> Yeah. We did I did a uh two three multi-part series on the gear of Lars with Chris Russio and that came up >> at some point in it I believe or we also did one where it was >> did we find L some guy came forward and was like I have Lars's stolen drum set and it turned out to not be it at all but >> uh it was fun. We had fun. So >> yeah. See that's I forgot about that one man. That's a good >> That's kind of a crazy source of information for >> just drum. >> Once again, it is not because I'm in it. It's more about that >> cuz they they cornered Ross from Drum Doctors who owns the kit and talks about tuning and stuff like that. So, there was a lot of info in there about recording. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Yeah. Great for drummers, great for engineers, great for drummer engineers. Um, so >> and music historians, too. and music. It's great for every aspect of sitting behind that kit, you know. >> That's right. >> That's what turned me on to metal was that drum kit. >> Oh, yeah. >> It's incredible. >> Crazy. >> Changed the game. >> All right, gentlemen. Thank you so much for your time and I really appreciate it and I hope to see you guys around. Thank you, >> man. Party on. >> See you. [Applause] [Music] [Applause]