How do you heal from SA

Hi everyone, welcome back to our podcast the helpline. I am here again with Dr. Anita Madan Beel and today uh we are going to be talking about essay. We're going to be talking about sexual assault. So I wanted to start by saying that if this is a an issue that's going to bother you, please do listen to the podcast very carefully with your mental health in mind. So this is a trigger warning right at the start to say that we will be talking about things that are sensitive and could be distressing to people. >> Yeah. You know it is sometimes we really suppress some memories sometimes we forget them. So if there are experience of child sexual abuse or sexual violence uh then unless you feel that there is enough support or you can get some support and help in everything um just take care of yourself. I think that's our main thing that it is a trigger warning just take care of yourself >> because like Anita said that sometimes we talk about something it may trigger a memory or it may trigger a reaction in you and so you really do need to look after yourself in this. So please do make sure that you're looked after. So um another I realized from the number of messages coming in sad reality almost every child suffers some kind of abuse, trauma, assault, harassment, whatever. Most of these kids will never speak up about it. Most of them it happens to them again and again because they can't speak up about it. And more importantly, they have to face the person who's done it to them because it's generally an adult in the house. It's an uncle or an adult person in the house. Not always a man. It can sometimes also be a woman. But the sad thing is that they're there and these kids have to grow up facing that. And of course, it's not just children. Also, when you get older, it can happen to you. And I think that there is so little information because we suppress the subject. So today I want to talk about the various different reactions and things that come up. So I'm going to break this down into several sections. And I want to start by saying that when people when people have go through assault, we tend to only think of it as rape. >> Mhm. >> It's not just that. It's it's anything from that kind of sexual violence to somebody who stares at you in a really bad way where it's every day you go past a particular road and there's somebody doing that to you. All sorts of things can come under this, right? >> Yeah. And so you know one of the things like you were saying that we know the numbers of percentage of sexual violence and sexual abuse and especially child sexual abuse in specific in India is extremely high. Um it is a number that like you were saying it's most people. Uh when we used to talk about it in our uh you know comprehensive sexuality education we would always say if you look to your left or you look to the right one of those peoples would have experienced sexual abuse. Like it is every second person you meet. And the thing is one of the things that we would teach children is that when we think sexual violence and what you know we only think oh it's going to be like rape or violence or things like that but actually sexual violence is on a continuum. It could be a whistle. It could be a verbal comment. It could be a stare. It could just be the way somebody looks at you. But it induces in you, you know, this level of fear and discomfort uh you know, when you're sexualized in that manner that it's really uncomfortable and especially when it is, you know, an adult that you know and most incidents of sexual violence, it's a myth that it's a stranger. Actually, the fact is that it's mostly people known to you, family members, neighbors, friends, somebody that you trust. Um, and and you know, and it's really hard. It's not only in children. It's really even hard as an adult to turn around and say, "I don't like that person. He looks at me weird." or you know each time that he crosses me he touches my back in a certain way that it just feels uncomfortable and the problem today is that even when you'll turn around and say something like that the fear that people will turn around and say >> judge you instead >> you're imagining it it's it's not like that don't overthink it >> or literally almost oh what were you wearing like even if they don't mean it they will say it like somebody just touched touch me on the back. Yeah, my blouse is cut low at the back. That doesn't mean he could touch me. But yeah, this sort of thing happens. So, it is >> and it's all part of sexual violence because why do we call it sexual violence, right? Because suddenly you don't want to go into a space that's safe for you. Suddenly you don't want to go through the road that you know you cross every day to get to the house. You now will take a longest route to come back. You don't want to go to that family gathering that is your favorite. You don't want to go and play with your friend because uh the father is somebody who might touch you. So now suddenly you don't want to go to that friend's house and everything. suddenly it induces in you and your body this fear and it takes away uh and this I'm just saying like I'm saying if it's a continuum this is the lower end of the continuum and imagine what is up for losing when I talk about something like that we haven't even touched when the severity is increased >> yeah and like you said what it does is it takes away your agency it takes away your your confidence to be yourself and it takes takes away your um your safety in your own body. >> Yeah. It and you know and I think many times you that that burden of pressure of I know it's wrong but nobody will believe me that that that complexity of that idea that nobody will believe you and that you're alone in this can be really burdening as well. So from the number of messages that have been coming in about people saying that they're having trouble with their relationship because oh I was sexually abused at the age of 11 or I'm having trouble with my relationship because I was sexually abused and continuously by somebody when I was a child and then I had to put up with that person forever. And the reaction to this is what I want to start with because most people think that if you are touched inappropriately, you will have an automatic reaction that there will be this horror, there will be this disgust, there will be this desire to fight it off, you know that it's it's a fight orflight thing that we have as human beings which is completely not correct. We go through any number of weird and horrid reactions which you don't expect. So I think Anita let's start with listing out that when you go through sexual violence what are the different ways that you your body and your mind can end up reacting which most people are not really expecting to happen. Well if you take the example of child sexual abuse actually many times children don't realize they are being abused. You have to understand that we don't have any knowledge of our bodies or we do not have any knowledge about sex, sexuality, sexual violence at that time. So when my favorite uncle or auntie comes and says this is a this is a special game between the two of us. You're my favorite child. Don't tell anybody about it and we're going to play it. And you know at some level when they are touching your vagina or your penis or something and the body biologically is reacting the child thinks oh it's actually a fun game you know it's so and it could continue somewhere. Most survivors will talk about how I knew there was something wrong but they said it was a game. They were my favorite uncle and auntie. They like knew it. >> I knew there was something wrong, but I was getting aroused. So maybe it wasn't wrong. >> And I wouldn't even use the word arousal for a child because for them it's like the feeling is a good feeling, right? Like you know so many times like you would we've spoken about kids rubbing and everything because the feeling is a good feeling. They don't even know at this point that it's arousal. It's only many times that they know that, you know, they understand and sense when they're doing it, when nobody's looking, you know, and they'll have memories of I don't like it. I don't want them to come to my room in the middle of the night. Is my room locked or why is why are my parents going out and leaving me with this person? You know, and it could be a grandfather, it could be a grandmother. And so it's many times it's only when they hit puberty or as an adult do they look back and realize that they were getting abused, you know. So many and and then obviously like you're saying that complication of but I never said no to the game. I never said no to what they were doing. I thought it was a game. I was the favorite child. So how can I say anything now? But then you know at the same time like you're saying that uncle or auntie is at their marriage is at their birthdays is at the Diwali is at you know everything. Um and and so it's so complex like this is a podcast and we're really touching the surface to let the information go out and speak up about sexual violence. But the complexity is just deeper and deeper. >> So can we kind of list out a few things um which people might go through as a reaction. So I did this uh real the other day where I was talking about what I personally went through when I experienced it and the kind of selfhatred that it brought me each feeling. You know that first one where you don't fight back. I froze. I didn't fight back and then I hated myself for not fighting back because I was like if as human beings we're automatically supposed to fight back why didn't I do it did it mean that I didn't want to protect myself because when something like this happens you are in such a mess emotionally [clears throat] you have lost all faith over yourself you've lost your safe zone you've become hyper vigilant about everything it is so frightening so can we go through a couple of just the sort of reaction actions that are likely to happen. >> Sure. So, we always speak about this idea because once again the myth out there is that if you are getting sexually abused, you would automatically fight, right? And that you would try and protect yourself. But what we have to remind ourselves and when we talk about trauma and PTSD, there are actually two responses to it. Um you know we call it the fight or flight response and it's basically do you go like do you go into the fight mode which is like go up or you go to the flight mode which is where you freeze or you become numb right um and many times so it's not necessary that each time people will land up fighting or screaming um we also need to come bring into the consideration like Like I said one as a child do you know what's happening do you really know can you fight this adult do you like do you know even what to question at that time right so one is not knowing and only having this feeling in the stomach that there's something wrong second is that a lot of times people feel unsafe they feel like if they fight the violence might get be bigger or they might get into more trouble or it might become worse And and so the survivor instinct kicks in where they just feel like let this pass and let me go get out of it safely. Uh but what happens with that is exactly what you're talking about. When they go into that survivor mode, they actually then wonder but I didn't fight. I just let it happen. So then like am I to be blamed or is the other person to be blamed? uh but you know when we have PTSD when we are going through a traumatic event we could freeze or we could you know fight or flight or run away or something. So it's really important to remember that you could have different reactions to a traumatic event. The other one that I spoke about was that you know um there is an arousal whether you call it just feel good sort of thing because your body automatically reacts but when the body is touched in a certain way it will have a certain reaction and nobody's telling us that that's the problem. Nobody's explaining that the body does react in a certain way and so you are going to feel this arousal and I remember just thinking I'm despicable. How can I be feeling excited? I remember this so vividly. So this is the most complex thing we work with survivors. Um because what happens is many times they come and say I said no. I did give I did not give my consent. I did not want it. I screamed. I said no or I froze but I didn't I had said before things but when it happened I became wet or I became erect or I actually had an orgasm. So if my body was experiencing these things which are sexual then how could it Yeah. But then how could it be rape or sexual violence? Right. Because even if it was if even if it was oral or somebody touching or anything. So if it was so bad then how could I experience it? And it is and then they have the feelings of how disgusting a person am I that I'm actually enjoying somebody being violent towards me. Right? And so this is the hardest hardest thing to work in therapy with them to say to them that it is a biological reaction. It's an involuntary biological reaction. And that's the key word. You know, if we rub the penis, the penis will get erupt erect. If we rub the vagina, the vagina will get wet. These are involuntary bodily actions. You could be terrified, scared, not wanted, fighting about it, but at the same time because these are physiological things, involuntary physiological things, they might still happen. Um, and that that idea is revolutionary for survivors. um that you know that oh so when I had I when I had an ejaculation or I came in my rape I wasn't feeling pleasure it was actually my body just >> just reacting in the way that bodies are built to react >> um the other thing that I found was this complete disconnect from the body you know like where you almost you you're so afraid of the body because that's the body that gave you that hurt you that's what where you communicated your pain from there was that sort of disconnect with the body where you almost sort of step back from it and that then either means that you start to punish your body or you over sexualize it. So so the word that we use a lot when we do this therapy is called dissociation. Um, and we ask survivors if they feel out of body experiences because many times what happens is it's so difficult to be in our body, you know, that we always feel like we're outside our body watching it. Especially because one of the symptoms of PTSD is getting triggered um and actually um you know revisiting what had happened again and again. And at that point it feels like your body is experiencing the same thing again and again like the pain is as much. So because we can't take it, it's just too painful. We dissociate from the body. Like we just we feel like I'm not in that body. I'm looking at that body. So So that's the out of body experience that you're talking about. Um and you're right. I think the other big thing that we speak about is one of the main things about sexual violence is loss of control. Um and you know people really feel they lost control. They felt p powerless in that moment. They didn't have any control over their destiny. They didn't have any power in that moment. >> The helplessness. >> The helplessness. And so what and this you know maybe if we have time we can come back to but what happens a lot of times people always wonder why am I suddenly you know I I I was raped this person was raped why are they with every new man every day like what's going on like if they thought this was a bad thing and you know then obviously the ostralization of the victim they are you know sexual beings that's why this happened to them. They are lose girls. This happened to them. But actually a the way research has helped us understand it and the way research seizes it is that uh we're engaging in atrix behavior or we we're engaging in overly sexualized behavior to gain control. We are saying this is our body and we'll decide who and when we want to have sex with. And if I want to have sex with someone every day, it will be my choice and by my control, not by somebody violating me. Um, so it's it is it depending on the person, it could be gaining control or it could be self harm. But you know, it is part of the whole post-traumatic stress disorder and one of the symptoms of it. It's also just for us to be able to explain to you that these are the kind of reactions that you can get from this because these are things that certainly nobody ever talks about. Nobody ever told me. I didn't know this growing up. Um, and I think that it's really important that we understand because the kind of reactions that we go through after something like this happens, they're so complex. They're not what you would text book imagine will happen. And actually what you made me realize also is that actually when we see over sexualized children many times it is a red flag for us of how come they have so much knowledge of sexual ways of being and is there abuse happening because if you think about child sexual abuse if they suddenly know about how do people kiss where is the penis how do you rub it where do you put it in or let me wear something, let me show it somewhere. You know, so it is a red flag to us that they've been exposed to something >> that has made them over sexualized. >> And also many times, you know, when and once again, I don't want to touch things because it's so complex and these are these are years and years of therapy. So, I'm touching them. But a lot of times they children especially are made to feel special because of being sexualized right so they grow up believing that the power lies in being sexualized and that's why what you were talking about getting abused again and again because they think that is the way people show them love that is what makes them special that is why somebody would love them and they land up engaging engaging in those behaviors thinking that was the act of love or being special, not realizing that they were being abused and then it becomes a cycle. Um and then obviously as in the complexity of what you think about yourself and how you think about yourself and that can get really complex. >> And [clears throat] I think um one other thing that I I know that almost all of us go through is that you start wanting to go back to who you were before this happened. >> There's this thing of saying, "God, I wish I could be that person. I wish I could feel like I did before this happened. I wish I could go back to that time before." And I think this is something that we're going to touch upon a little later in the podcast properly, but the idea going forward is that we learn through all the um exercises and stuff that we're going to talk about how to move forward to be the person that you're going to be uh who has come back to being able to trust themselves and their body after this has happened. You can't unfortunately go back. But a lot of times we actually hamper our own progress by literally getting stuck on that thing of saying I want to go back to who I was. >> So the way I my as in you're making the point but the way I would put it is that we were somebody and a traumatic event happened. we got injured, right? And similar to when we break a leg, it takes a long time for us to run. And our run might look different. Our healing might look different. Uh we might, you know, for a long time hop on one leg. Uh then we might find other ways to run. And so we keep reminiscing how we ran before, who we were before the accident, before what happened. And part of that taking away the control and the powerlessness is exactly that. It's not about part of it is about the violent act. The other part of it is being feeling violated. Being part of you being taken away, how it changed your life. How you can't do how you can't trust people. How you can't go places. How you feel scared all the time. How you're scared that something wrong will happen to you. It's taking away your sense of safety. >> And that is that is the bigger part of it. And so so many times, you're absolutely right. People will say, "I just want to be able to go somewhere and not look over my shoulder. I just want to be able to go out of my house and not feel like I'm unsafe." You know, and they want to go back to being that person who can just like meet a person and, you know, go on a date and fall in love and not always, you know, like question them. Um, and and a lot of times they miss that. And I think I want to add over here just before we move on to our next section is that a lot of [clears throat] times people believe that if they're not able to cope or if they're still feeling the fear even though there's people saying don't worry, move forward, meditate, do this. Um you're not being weak. It's not a weakness. It's not that you're not strong enough to cope with it. These are very normal responses. It is you know and I sometimes like it's really important to understand that your sense of safety and your like it is not just the act of violence it is all those things. >> So it might it might have impacted really who you are. So if the healing is slow it's okay. If the healing is fast, that's also okay. If the healing changes you, that's also okay. Um, but yeah, it is it can be very complex. >> It can be very complex. So, what I want to move on to now is the myths around what people think will make everything better. So unfortunately there are wonderful things which are really really valuable to our healing process but they're not going to actually heal it. I cannot believe it but Zoro has just walked out by opening the door himself. He's actually learned how to do that himself. >> Okay. Sorry to come back to this. There are some things that genuinely uh help but they won't necessarily cure the they won't um make things okay. Like that's not the healing process, but that's the supporting process. Now, page 238, right? >> Yeah. >> Page 238 in the book actually has a lot of the exercises that you can go into and try and things that you should go to therapist for and so on. So, it's there in writing so you don't have to make notes. So, get yourself a copy of the chapter, but we're going to talk through it. So I made some notes about the kind of things that people like I know that whenever I get really worked up you know like if the panic from a thought sets in and people would be like do you meditate every day sema do you medit and you know what yes meditation is great but it doesn't heal you that's not actually going to work so it actually puts my back up sometimes people say that so I just want to mention a couple of things. Um so yeah, if your partner is really really loving towards you, hugely helpful, that's a blessing. Okay. Um if you have friends and family around you who are actually saying yes, what happened was wrong and it was the abuser's fault, not yours, rather than having those people saying, "Yeah, but you know, so we don't want that." Therapy, of course, is going to be really useful. Um, all of these things are wonderful to have in your life, but they won't necessarily they're not the cure. >> So, I think one of the things that we need to understand in many ways as we think about it is what is required immediately after and what is required later in life. Sorry, when I say also not the cure, I should really um identifi I should define what I'm trying to say because that sounds weird. So, when we're talking about trauma of any kind, we're saying that it's taken away your ability to be yourself. It's taken away your relationship with yourself. >> Sure. And what we are trying to say with this is when we're talking about healing is allowing you to go back to having a relationship with your own self where you feel safe in yourself. >> So that's what I mean when I talk about the you know healing or curing. >> Absolutely. And I think what I learned when I started working at the rape crisis center um is the big difference between symptom management and processing trauma. And we have to understand the difference because what happens is a lot of symptoms of PTSD are like you were talking about having a panic attack, not being able to be intimate, always being hypervigilant, not being able to look, feeling dissociated. So the person might be sitting with in front of you but they are not there you know and that can be really scary or it could be really scary for you because so many clients would come and say I I'm in my shower and and suddenly when I realize it's been 2 hours I've been in the in the shower and the water's been really hot because I can't feel. A lot of people would talk about how they can't feel the pain. And this was this was my big lesson because, you know, most people when they talk about cutting or self harm or even using drugs and everything, everybody thinks, "Oh, you're doing it, you're doing drugs for pleasure or you're cutting because you can't hack it or something like that." And what we've really learned in PTSD is that people are managing pain. They don't know how the pain is so much that they don't know how to manage it. So they're finding anything that makes them feel okay for those 5 minutes, you know, and so one understanding that the pain is a lot. So you know, and that's exactly what you were talking about. What happens is when the pain is so much, you're just looking for yourself that was painfree. that person that was painfree, that person that was jolly, that person that you know just was carefree, you know, so you're looking for that person. Yeah. So a lot of times what we've learned is for the symptom management the panic attacks the anxiety disorders the the anxiety the depression the uh the the you know the triggers the thing all of that eating disorders and other things um we really need to think about how we're going to manage it and funnily enough you know you were talking about meditating uh the trick that I learned at the rape crisis center is that you go and get yourself a bottle of bubbles because what helps the most with panic attacks is breathing. So if you have bubbles or you blow into Yeah. You basically when you do you when you blow into it you're forced to breathe and when you're forced to breathe in that moment when that panic attack is happening or you are not feeling grounded suddenly it brings you back. There are a lot of grounding techniques. It's about the five senses, feeling something, looking at something, hearing something, touching. So these are all things that I'm talking about a symptom management. I think Sema was talking more about how do we move to a more holistic life back. And so that is why I'm just saying there's a difference between symptom management and wanting to be yourself that was painfree in many ways. uh and yes for that it is a slow process but we need to engage in life and look for those relationship and experiences that are supportive that where we can trust people where people will not push us you know that we're with a partner and we are saying to them I can't do this because it brings back memories for me and they don't push the agenda you know they're like it's okay uh for people who will say, you know, they won't ask the questions or don't react and say, "Why were you out at night? What were you wearing? I told you you shouldn't do these things." But they're more like, "It was the perpetrator's fault. You're not at fault. You, you know, like so all those supportive spaces that actually, you know, make us somewhere because, you know, guilt and shame come in this territory. >> I want to say two things over here. One is that if you're finding this overwhelming right now, take a break. Actually, shut it off. Figure out what point the time stamp is over here and come back to it later when you feel better. Uh don't push yourself to listen to the whole thing. The other thing is what Anita was just talking about this thing of support. You know if you are the support person for someone who has gone through this rather than saying to the person so let's say it's a young woman oh let's say any age not just a young woman rather than saying to them okay no no no you know what I'm trying to keep you safe just stay home just stay home don't go out because I can keep you safe over here instead of saying that because that actually makes them feel worse it used to put my back up But but you know it it made me feel so angry that I was being told to stay back and that you're not actually protecting me. You're protecting the abuser because >> but also it's reinforcing to you that yes the outside world is bad and you will feel unsafe there. So all those so rather than you feeling like >> I I'm strong enough to deal with the outside world, what was being reinforced is the outside world is bad. Stay at home and stay safe. >> So for me it was also reinforcing that somehow because I went out I put myself in that position. So it's that little bit of the survivor blame >> but also selflame that I took myself out. >> Yes. So you know you are not helping your survivor by telling them stay in and then you'll be safe. This is the point where you are saying to them it was the other person's fault. Tell me what you need right now. Do you need me to accompany you when you go out? Do you need somebody else over there? Let's put things into place so that they are uh so that you feel comfortable going out knowing that you have somebody to turn to. I cannot stress this enough how much of a difference it makes and how horrible it actually feels when somebody thinks they're protecting you by keeping you indoors while your abuser roams free. Yeah. You know, and we say it all the time, right, that victims always are made to do things. Suddenly they'll dress differently. Suddenly they'll not do what they're doing. uh they'll not take up jobs, they'll not go abroad, they'll not you know whatever that they had ambitions for changes whereas nothing changes for the perpetrator. They still are going to the places doing things and everything. Um you know or you know the solution will be we won't go to that family gathering because they will be there. So we will skip the family gathering and in many ways that you know what you're saying the intention is one of taking care but in what in the the result is not that I can tell you from personal experience it made me feel like I clearly had created this situation. It made me feel horrible. You're not helping by saying that. I also have had a video in the past where, you know, I've been trolled for saying this where I've had people coming in and saying, "Parents are just trying to to support you. They're just trying to protect you. That's why I'm telling you this. This is not I'm not feeling protected. You have to learn how to change your vocabulary to be able to protect the person. And so choose wisely who you share with you know and although this happened in one of my work things you know one of the things that we promote for is that we should not you know there shouldn't be any shame we should have the voice we should have the agency we should like tell everybody we have to and yes there might be a time and phase for it but we have to you have to understand that when you're hurting and when you're vulnerable And if you don't get the right support from the other person, it can further wound you or it can it's like saying I have a wound and I'm showing it to everybody. Some people say oh I have a cream for it. I have a band-aid for it. Some other people say oh show me oh that's wound is so ugly. Why would you show it to me or oh that's not really that wound is nothing. So now the point is the complexity of your wound has increased. So be wise of who you're showing the wound to. Yes, there will be a time for you if you want to have act, you know, agency and activism to speak up against it. There will be a time. But when the wound is healing, be careful about who you don't want to get further infected. I must also tell you that this was, you know, when I went through this, I wanted to go and tell everybody almost as though you're seeking some form of validation because you want to tell people. You do because you you want them to turn around and say that was a bad thing. It's almost like and you know half them won't you know half of them will blame you for it in some way, but you're still doing it because you can't stop. I I almost want to burst into tears just now. So, I'm going to not >> Thank you. But I just want to say that, you know, how we react to um sexual assault is nothing like how we think textbook reaction should be. It's nothing like that. So, yes, unfortunately, it may not be. See, keeping quiet also feels like, oh my god, I'm protecting the abuser. Speaking up, no, you know that you're going to get more sort of. So, the key here is think about there are multiple aspects here, right? There's part of it is, you know, so we will tell every victim survivor that if they want to press charges against the perpetrator, if they want to speak against the perpetrator, if they want to like make sure as a child, you're telling your parents or somebody in authority to like that they'll protect you and they will like create a case against them or somebody else. Absolutely. One is not for one. This is not about protecting the perpetrator or not asking you to get your justice against the perpetrator. So justice for you is very essential. However, there is that's got to do with legality and justice and then there is part of it is processing your trauma, right? And a lot of times where you're processing your trauma becomes very important because if people are only going to further traumatize you know what we call is ostracization of the victim you know and then you're left alone where you're kind of distanced from everybody else. people are pointing fingers without actually pointing fingers that you know that >> but you know that one of the big things I I hope and pray things have changed but what we would talk about 25 years ago 20 years ago I I know it's not changed completely in India but I feel like there is an increased understanding the reason people did not access help or go and file cases was because the perpetrator wouldn't get ostracized the victim would get ostracized She's a bad girl. She was wearing the clothes. Why did she have go out at night with that guy? Why did she not do this? Why didn't he do this? He could have done something different. He must have asked for it. She must have asked for it. So what happened is and then the consequences. If you are labeled as somebody abused then that you will never have a relationship. You become a dirty impure person. So nobody will marry you. Nobody think so the ostracization of the victim was so hard and so difficult that actually the families would turn around and say keep quiet about it because if we speak about it your life will be ruined >> and I want to and I hope to that that's changed. So I I think that has changed. So, we're not talking about the ostraciz speaking for the victim, speaking up as a victim, as a survivor for justice. Absolutely, you need to do it. You must do it. And have supportive people around you who will support you in that fight and in that validation that that was abuse and was wrong to you. What I'm talking about when I speak about choose who you show your wounds to is when you're processing trauma. Because if somebody is going to ostracize you and make you feel that shame again and make you feel traumatized again, they're not worthy of sharing your pain with. >> They are not worthy of it. >> They're not worthy of it. And yeah, you don't want to be feeling terrible. But yeah, it is something that is not easy to control. um very quickly two or three uh things that one should do. So we talked about managing the symptoms but it in the healing process I mean I know therapy is really really important somatic exercises I mean like what would you recommend? I will you know for the longest time I could not bear to have a massage like and I used to say oh I don't have the patience for it >> but it's only later on that because that's what my brain was saying oh we just don't have the patience for it couldn't bear to be touched so it took a long time of letting somebody be able to touch my body >> yeah I think many times uh like in your experience when we have a traumatic experience and we've not labeled and and many times we don't label it as abuse because the day we label it as abuse we need to live with the fact that we have been abused right and that's really painful but if we label it as I was too drunk I didn't know I think there was a misunderstanding I think I overreacted It's manageable. It's manageable. But if I label it as abuse then abuse >> then suddenly I have to deal with the pain. >> I have to deal with the consequences. I have to deal with it. So um so I think what happens is many times it's easier to repress and you know and and bury those feelings and so unconsciously our mind creates this thing. I don't like massages. I'm not a very touchyfey person. Sex is so yucky. Who wants to have sex? Men are yucky or women are yucky. Uh I don't want to really engage in that. Um, and so because we also know that subconsciously that we might be triggered into our memory, right? So we're really protecting ourselves. We're really protecting ourselves because we know that we might trigger something by something might happen and triggers are weird. It could be a red shirt, a red lipstick, a a clip, a smell, a a taste, uh uh you know, it could be the weather. it the trigger and it could come out of nowhere. >> Um so so uh so in a weird way mind body we're all protected because it is very painful and traumatic. So everything is protecting you. So we come up with these things. So sometimes they do say body therapy or somatics therapy is very helpful because it reconnects you to your body. you disconnect because the pain lies with the body. Um, therapy is obviously there. They speak about EMDR to work through memories. Um I think there could be some spiritual healing somewhere or a lot of times I've seen creative ways of therapy where people have really preferred um you know doing um uh dance movement therapy or sound healing or you know things like that which have been little bit more holistic. Dance movement therapy I am told is absolutely brilliant because it really gives you a chance to reinhabit your body like you watch your body move you know you feel it move you feel it move with happiness and with rhythm and then suddenly that brings you back to um >> I think you just express and take out also right and and what we need to remember culturally and this is part of my cultural work that I do we can find healings that match us and our cultural ways of being. You know, western psychotherapy or talk therapy as we say it as an I practice is I practice it as and I've worked with survivors and I think it's very effective. But sometimes you know survivors will come and say I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to I don't want to repeat what happened. I don't want to talk about it. So you might want to look at some non-verbal healing which might be art therapy or you know creative therapies or sound baths or you know like like other indigenous healings that feel more in sync with you. Nature I think is one of the best healers with PTSD connecting with nature. There are a lot of people that connect with um nature and like trees and protective factors and everything, gardening or something. >> Yeah. They they tend to say that if you grow a plant and the fact that you see something growing can be so nourishing for your P PTSD symptoms that it's really helpful. Um I want to do research at some point. I haven't done it but at some point I know in the future there will be micro doing through psychedelics for PTSD. That's how they were created for the soldiers u to get over PTSD that's why they were there. Um I I like if you can find an expert I know little about it but just to mention what's currently happening um that is also >> being offered therapy. So, like I said, it's actually page 238 and it does have certain exercises [clears throat] that you can try at home. But seriously, I would suggest that you see a doctor or you see a therapist and actually work through um all of this with them because it is like Amita said, it's really complex and it's not something that it's wonderful having friends who can help you but it as a lay person they are really not able to tell you just the complexity the depth of where your thoughts can take you. So when you are going to see your doctor, I actually made a list from our conversation about the different things that you should talk to your doctor about when you're going to see the doctor for um advice on uh healing from sexual trauma. So the first thing is don't minimize what you're experiencing. It's something that we all tend to do. I was feeling like this but no no it was actually just you know it was probably from that and do not minimize how how you're feeling or what you're experiencing, talk about it. So whether it's something small like flashbacks, nightmares, uh panic attacks, I always tend to minimize my panic attacks and you know whether you're having difficulty uh with intimacy because there are so many different things that you could be feeling. Oh, today I was a bit tired, that's why I couldn't be intimate. Oh, you know today the um I knew that I had to wake up really early tomorrow and I knew I wouldn't be able to spend enough time on this. So I it's really important not >> also like I think so many when we actually find connect eating disorders so many eating disorders are actually connected to abuse rather than oh I just like eating or oh I just need to like be thin or you know um because abuse is so related to your body. So remember that connection between the body and the abuse is really strong. >> Yeah absolutely. The other one is uh pelvic pain. You can actually end up with pelvic pain. Um changes in libido, difficulty sleeping, anxiety, depression and um the fact that you could go to the doctor and say all this and if your doctor decides to sort of brush you aside and say ne this is not such a big deal. If you feel minimized or not seen by your doctor, get a second opinion. There are a lot of people out there now. There are online places, the online therapists and doctors. There are in-person people. But yeah, remember that this is important for you and you are not uh you're not weak or making it up or oh, I'm not dealing with it so well. It's all very important. I actually would say when and that's what I was talking about who you show your boom to. I would go and interview them first. Ask them if they are somebody who's trained to work with the survivor, if they have knowledge, if their politics, if their activism, if their justice is in sync with what you're looking for. Uh because if somebody like Cai saying is going to and and and I can't tell you there are so many of my colleagues who cannot sit with sexual violence, right? they get so uncomfortable that consciously or un subconsciously they change the topic or refer on or then so please find somebody who is an expert find somebody who is open to talking about this issue and it's okay not you know somebody might be great with dealing with a certain kind of schizophrenia but they're not great at working with sexual violence so Find an expert, find somebody um who has done work in this area. It's not easy to sit with it. It's you need to be trained with it. You need to know how to work with you know with this specific >> and I also feel like what happens a lot of times not only with doctors but friends and family they always want to say a then what else happened then how did it happen where and actually that can be retraumatizing. So remember like so be protective of yourself. Find people you want to share with, you think they are share you want to share with and how much you want to share with them. It's okay. You're not being weak. You're not uh you know you're not not being an activist. You're not not fighting for the cause just because you don't share every detail. you're actually protecting yourself. Trauma is really painful and protecting yourself is one of the first first things to take care of. And as you get resourced, as you process trauma, you can fight whatever fight you want to. Um, but it can happen in parallel is what I'm saying. I think that is such a valid point and I'm so glad that you said it that when people go and look for a doctor, a lot of people will say to me, "Oh, this person treated me really badly or who should I go to and where should so instead of you sort of um putting yourself in their hands first interview the doctor to see what is their background in um sexual trauma and being able to help people in that because yes, you're right. Not every doctor is qualified for that. Not every therapist is qualified for that. So you do need somebody who is actually who really understands the depth of it. And I think what I want to finish with and is the distinction between reclaiming your sexuality, reclaiming your body and getting back to having sex >> because there's a big difference. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. having the ability to reclaim your agency, your autonomy over your own body or simply being able to say, "Okay, I can grit my teeth and have sex." Now, >> you know, obviously we have to understand with sexual abuse, sex is directly impacted in some ways. Uh some people can comp compartmentalize and say this is a safe person. This is my partner. Um, and anyway, that's where we want to get to. We want you to be able to have your sex life back with somebody where you have your consent, where you feel safe, where you know, somebody you trust and you want to be intimate with and you want to have the pleasure. But if that process is taking longer simply because you're getting triggered or flashbacks are happening or you're getting traumatized, it's okay. It is really painful and they will understand. But like you're saying, there's one thing having sex and saying, "I'm just going to close my eyes and I'm going to let the person do whatever they're doing and just like I I'm not really going to engage with it." Um and so there is a journey to you know people think that if sexual violence happen nobody can actually come out of it or be like that and actually that's rot child speaks it >> yeah or the other extreme where it's like if sexual violence happened now you're with a really loving person now you don't have to have any fears so you should just be able to come out of it. Yeah. >> Yeah. And so what she says is that actually if we can >> sorry who says >> Babette Rothschild she she's the one who wrote the body remembers um and she I might be wrong I'm pretty sure about it but if I'm wrong about it you can correct me but she is the expert on u trauma and everything and she really says that when people after the act are able to talk about it and they are validated and supported and they are allowed to like talk about the trauma and speak about the trauma they can actually process trauma and move towards normaly what happens a lot of times is we don't talk about it when children go to the adult they are told keep quiet don't talk about it nothing like this happened I can't what how can I I can't you know tell your brother, it's my he's my child, you're lying, my boyfriend might not have done it. So all those things happen and actually that leads to complex PTSD. PTSD is a mental health uh pro issue which we can work on. Uh but the complex you know the complexity increases. Um so you know if you do find it supportive you can you can connect to your body you can feel safe again. Uh you once you start shedding some of that guilt the shame the blame the anxiety the depression the pain um it can all the you know the body can uh come back to it itself. So there's hope don't give it up. Uh it's very much possible. Well, like we know most of this world is surviving after being victims. Um so it's just about how we can do it the best way possible. >> To finish, is there one top tip that you want to leave everybody with? Just something to keep in mind no matter which path they decide to pursue. For me the top tip is is getting rid of that exercise of self-lame, guilt and shame. I think for me that is the hardest because that keeps the trauma alive because we internalize the trauma and somewhere feel we could have stopped it and it's our fault that it happened and that makes it difficult. That's what's challenging because then we've internalized the brain then externalized the blame. So for me that is the key. >> Yeah. Because that's what keeps you from actually moving forward in your healing journey because you're constantly just blaming yourself and saying well what do you mean I have to heal because really I was at so that whole sort of thing. So yeah. self because you can externalize, blame the other person, be angry at the person and all of those things. But when we've internalized the blame, we've internalized the ga guilt and the shame, then when we are getting sad, angry, pissed. We're getting sad, angry, pissed at ourselves. So for me, um, just it wasn't your fault. That's what I want to leave you with. It wasn't your fault. Nothing. Nothing >> to make me believe that it was your fault. So it is not your fault. >> No part of it. Nothing. Not that you were somewhere or that you wore this. Nothing. There is no part of this was your fault. If you were sexually assaulted, abused, harassed in any way, it was not your fault. And I hope that that's something that they would all take away with that. Thank you for that. Um, it's been quite an emotional episode for me. So, thank you. >> Yeah. And thank you for being brave, you know, as in it's not easy. So, thank you for being brave. >> It brings back far too many horrible memories and it's just it's really awful. But, um, yeah, if you found that useful and I certainly hope that you did, I hope that you healed from this. And as always, of course, like, comment, subscribe, send us your questions. And is on. >> So you can email me on and madan behel@gmail.com. If that's complicated, my website is culture and theapy.co.uk. So culture and theapy.co.uk. Just fill out the contact form if you're looking for therapy or to connect. And for me, of course, it's info.sema.gmail.com. write to us and we will see how we can help you with your questions. In the meantime, stay safe. [music]