How Brands Can Win Attention in a Fragmented World: Insights from Two Global Marketing Leaders

Welcome to Adspeak, AdWeek's podcast about the business of marketing, media, and creativity. In this episode, we're sharing a conversation recorded live at one of AD week's events, featuring leaders from across the industry discussing the ideas shaping brands right now. Let's get into it. Hi everyone, welcome to this session, Future of Media. We're going to get into all things changing in the media ecosystem. Um, why don't you guys quickly introduce yourselves? Hi everyone, I'm Siobhan Vis Warren. I'm the SVP of BR marketing at Papa John's and I'm here to talk about pizza and we >> literally can't see anybody. So, uh I'm Mike Law. I'm the CEO of Carara across North America. So the media landscape, I mean, we've been talking about transformation in media for maybe 25 years at this point, but it's really feels like we're at an inflection point right now with the rise of AI, fragmentation, um, emerging platforms. What do you think has been the most significant change in the last year, year and a half? Shro, why don't you start? >> Um, I would say, I mean, a couple things. I think one, media is becoming, as you said, more and more fragmented and we almost look at media in about four different ways. There's your traditional, you know, kind of paid media and that would be your, you know, above the line, your CTV, your paid social and search. I'd say this second version is now starting to look into influencers and content creators and how you start to think about, you know, partnering with such incredible minds around the world and getting that content out there. Your third is aggregators. You know, for our space, there's, you know, giant media platforms with Uber and Door Dash and Instacart and others that we have to start thinking through. And then of course there's still like our own organic social and how you start thinking about boosting a lot of that content and getting it in front of consumers. And so you have to start looking at multiple different avenues as you're starting to build out your media strategy and working with really great partners to help us think through how to best invest those dollars in order to get the biggest returns. I >> mean Mike, you live and breathe media all day across a whole bunch of clients at Denu. What would you say that's changed the most? Yeah, I think it's um it's a little tied to the point that we've got so many media channels that are at mass scale and mass reach. So, you know, we've all seen the chart about how quick how long it took to TV to get there and then radio and then internet and video, but now there's so many channels that are at scale. So, everything is a viable option. And then two, I think we've successfully over the last few years really helped brands understand that media is a great investment. It's not an expense. It really is helping to drive business growth. We've improved the way we think about measurement and analytics is part of that. So we're able to kind of prove the 50% that we used to think is wasted. What what's happening? So that's now put a tremendous amount of pressure on the industry to think about what is the right channel mix. I mean it's very easy to say the brand p per performance conversation but it it is true and it is a it's a really tough balance to find because they're both so important in the journey. So I think in the last year that's what's changed is you have so many scaled options so many ways to reach consumers. consumers are, you know, they're aware of all those options and then congrats to us for showing that it works, but at the same time now everybody's paying attention to it and saying, "How do I make it work even better?" Because I I need it to drive more growth, >> right? And now that measurement is better, you can also it's not just prove the performance element, right? It's prove that the brand elements are working and that's always more difficult to do. >> Yeah. I think especially like in a world where you know we very quickly can move to algorithms and just data to drive every decision. It is actually the brand work that allows you to stick out to show up to the actual consumer engagement because all the stuff that happens behind the scenes the consumer never sees that. Why did this ad end up here? They only see the ad and the brand moment. So therefore that becomes the most important part of the entire transaction and experience. >> Yeah. So Shamro, you mentioned creators and media is not just paid ads anymore. It's culture. It's IRL experiences. It's working with influencers. Papa John's has leaned really heavily into that. Talk about, first of all, why you've made that shift and what kind of sparked that change. >> Yeah, I think it's really important to find opportunities to put your brand in front of consumers in places where they're actually looking for it. They're probably not thinking about pizza 100% of their day, as much as I wish they were. >> I don't know. But I know I am. U But, you know, for those, you know, they're going to be thinking about things like uh the newest sneakers that are coming out. They're going to be thinking about celebrity content, their favorite sports teams. They're going to be looking at what's happening in the world today. And finding amazing content creators that are working in those spaces. And being able to integrate your brand into those moments starts to put yourself into places where they might not have been thinking about your product and hopefully connecting you back to those cultural moments that are now starting to resonate on a daily basis. So you're not ending up just sending an ad out to them at all times. I think you need to have all of those different pieces that I spoke to before in order to have like a cohesive 360deree strategy, but finding more of those moments where you can kind of tap into their everyday life is so important today. >> Yeah. Mike, talk about how that's kind of changed your job at as a media agency and the things that you do for your clients like Papa John's. >> Yeah, I think I heard this great kind of commentary on this a few weeks ago that the consumer journey and the media plan now is basically like a bowl of spaghetti and that was just all kind of mixed together and you know different sauces and and but there's no start and end point like there used to be. So I think we've talked a lot about the role of a communication planner and the planning team. What does that look like today? Because the the consumer journey isn't as you know a toz as it used to be. It can start at any point. So did they come in under performance and they need to learn the brand or they know the brand but they don't know how to get to it. Um so I just think that we've had to be much more nimble. uh and we've had to really kind of have this always on mindset about you know where are we finding those people in the journey and then how are we helping them complete that journey and that could be different for every impression that's served >> yeah I think in this world where we're kind of trying to reach consumers in the context of culture not necessarily push messages at them but participate in the conversations they're having it can work really well but it can also not work really well and it can fall flat so what What are some of the things you do at Papa John's to show up au authentically and not be kind of like a moment chaser? >> Yeah, I think it's uh a couple things like number one, you have to be real time and so you can't do things three or 4 days after they happen or after big things happen and expect that you're going to be relevant. You've got to work within the moment. I think big shout out to both our loyalty teams and our organic social teams for working through a you know really cool opportunity a couple months ago when of course when you know uh Taylor Swift got engaged we looked at our loyalty program and gave rewards out to anyone named Taylor andor Travis and we're you know working with our incredible like PR teams you know like got the message out into the world and was able to create buzz around a moment but this is a 24-hour activation that we were able to get our teams all organized around to be able to execute on. If we had waited another day or two days, it would have been irrelevant. And I think that's when you start looking like you're a clout chaser. >> Yeah. How do you change the way you work to enable that? Because usually at a big company, things are siloed, teams maybe don't know how to work together in that way. Talk about how you change things internally to make that happen. Yeah, it's I mean it's definitely not easy because you're generally asking people to drop their daily, you know, work and the things that need to happen in order to jump into something like this. But I think one working on you know smaller teams and being able to say we've got some point people who are able to tap into like real life and real-time moments. I think number two, trying to make them as kind of I would say like light as possible when it comes to the amount of effort that it's going to take, especially for something that's going to be like a 24-hour moment versus like a you know monthlong or two monthl long activation that we would be putting together. Yeah. >> And then I think the third piece is always communicating out the role or the goal of what we're working on. Helping explain the why makes it really important and gives people more understanding as to like, okay, I'm asking you to drop everything. I know that sucks, but here's the reason why we're going to do it, and here's what we think the end goal is going to be. >> Yeah, >> I think that adds to that, too. And I I think that's exactly right, is you need to bring the whole company and the whole everybody on the journey, not just one one moment in time, but all the time like if people get excited as an employee of Papa John's or other brands that, oh, we're going to be that brand that shows up in those moments. And that's cool. Especially, I'm sure, you know, legal certainly. Absolutely. Anyways, big challenge, but you set that, you know, hey, this is the mindset. This is how the brand's going to operate. And you have some foundational principles to say, hey, we could probably do these five things without asking you every time if it goes beyond that. So, yeah, I think just bringing the whole business along that journey and showcasing again back to that idea that we've proven that media works, now people are invested, so let's bring everybody along that journey. >> Yeah. Yeah. What about how has it changed the way you work together in terms of, you know, how the agency partnership is structured, who you have on your teams, when you bring them in, how quick they're working, all of that? >> Yeah, I I would say like one, we're very lucky. We've got incredible partners in Cara who I think are basically embedded into our business on a daily basis. And so our media teams, our brand teams are constantly in communication with them, talking about new plan changes, explaining what's happening with our business, thinking through like what media strategies we need to be looking at, like how quickly can we move and like what are the realities? Because sometimes I will come with an ask and I'm like, I need this on air in two days and then it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, two days, that's crazy. But they'll always figure it out. Make it work. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. We'll always figure out what we need to do in order to get there. is like how do you how do you push back in those moments if you have to to kind of like >> now we're getting deep here >> throwing you a great push back way to go Allison it was like 60 minutes here um no I again I'd say it's similar to what we just talked about is we're all on this journey together and I think we have to be transparent about what is possible and what's not possible but look our job is to make these things happen and we want to move at that same speed too and I think the industry has changed it's not a twoe lead time to get a commercial on air anymore. Now, there are realities to what can and can happen. But I do think we can move it at a much faster speed. We've got to be much more dynamic in how we do that. So, there's I I think you have to earn the trust of the client so that when we do say, "Hey, this time we just we can't do that." But as long as we put in that effort and figure out, well, if we can't do that, what can we do to make it happen? >> Yeah. And and I think going back to your your first initial point, because media is now segmented by channel, you actually have the opportunity to get some channels out faster than others. And so we can actually build like a calendar of launches that are going to happen so that we know that we're giving our partners, you know, enough time to be able to do the great work that they have to do, but also impact the needs of the business as quickly as possible. >> Yeah. So I want to talk about some of the work you've done in this space. Um, celebrity partnerships is something you lean into. Papa John's has a partnership with Shaq. Um, talk about the way you think about using celebrity and influence to to drive results. Maybe you can talk about the Shakaroni. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Shaq has been an incredible ambassador for our brand and I think is always willing to jump in and work with us and partner with us on incredible activations and opportunities. Um, we wanted to make it something bigger than just using him as, you know, a uh figure for our brand. He's also an investor. He's a franchisee. He um we've got our own pizza, the shakaroni that is on our menu and that is a beloved favorite. And you know, the more that we can integrate him into the business, the more we can integrate him and his voice and his humor and his style into our work, that's when we've actually seen the biggest success. You actually hear him in our most recent commercial that's on air right now. You know, we have an amazing relationship with him to say like, "Hey, we need your help. Can we work on this?" And, you know, he'll record content and send it over to us pretty quickly, which is amazing. And so, um, we're really lucky to have great partners like that. And I think as we look to the future, it's finding more of those, you know, I think celebrity partners, creator partners, talent that we can not only just integrate into advertising andor content, but hopefully tell a bigger story around. >> Yeah. How do you think about like working with the big celebrity like Shaq versus a creator? Where do they play different different roles in the media mix? >> Yeah. I mean, I think that you're now seeing that creators are playing a role where they can show up in the biggest moments on stage. You're seeing other brands start to work through that. Done it in my past as well. I think that line is a little bit blurred and I think you can now depending on the moment and depending on the consumer you're targeting, depending on the relevancy of the product, you actually have the opportunity to look at both creators and celebrities and it's kind of the same thing. >> What are your thoughts on that just across your client set? Yeah, I think you know it's it go back to a tried and trueue principle. I just do think the authenticity of that becomes of utmost importance that when you think about the creators that you work with, are they truly part of the brand story, the brand message or do they just resonate with the consumer base? And I think you have to find that right balance between the two. And I think the most successful creator relationships that we see is they're there along the brand journey as well. Like they're either already big fans of it or they're truly ambassadors. like having somebody come in for a one-off I think can can be a little harder. >> I want to go back to something you said before, Mike, about the spaghetti bowl of the media plan that we're kind of working in. In that context, you really need integrated work, right? You can't have kind of siloed media plans because the consumer could be coming in through >> multiple different doors. Um, so talk about how you make integrated media campaigns come together and I know the Papa Dippa campaign was was a good example of that. Yeah. Um, so you know, just most recently we launched a new product called the Papa Dippa. And one of the things that we actually worked on was it's a a really fun not only product because it leaned in on the insight around dipping, but we had this opportunity to say, how are we going to get this out into culture in a little bit of a bigger way because we could start to see a little bit of that bubbling up when we were doing consumer testing and things like that. And so actually in working with our integrated um agency team including Cara and our our advertising partners, our social partners, um we actually came up with a really cool idea which was like they you know if you look at Gen Z right now there's this big culture of kind of making uh these quick exits and leaving parties you know without telling anyone. That's very cool. >> So, we had this amazing partnership where we actually worked with Uber Eats and we did this like, you know, dip out with Papa Dippa where you could uh you would get this like journey ad that would show up and you could actually click on it and send someone or your friend that you just left their party a Papa Dippa to say sorry that I left. Um you know, here's a here's a pizza to say thank you. Um, and it was a really fun integration because we were able to not only use uh creators, we had media behind it, we had incredible earned media and and PR, we leveraged it through our own social and it helped us and working with our partners at, you know, Uber Eats and others. And so this gave us a great way to show up in a big 360 fashion and tap into a cultural insight as well. >> Yeah, that's a fun one. >> Yeah. So, right now we're kind of I'm sure we've heard AI come up on probably most most panels this week, but consumers are really consuming content in an algorithm driven world and there's a lot of slop out there. How do you think about creative in the context of media and the message that you're sending and sort of tying that together with the media to break through? I think AI can be an incredible tool and it's getting better and better every day. I think the one thing that we always have to deliver upon is like appetite appeal and it's got to look delicious, especially as we get creative out there, right? There's a cheese bowl for a reason in every pizza commercial because it just drives cravability and and I'm sure AI at some point will get better and better and better and we'll start to get there. But at least right now, you know, we we can see that there are other opportunities to use it versus actual like creative content development. >> Mike, any thoughts on it? Yeah, I mean I think obviously the algorithms are going to kind of continue to push. If every pizza company put in their ideal audience, every ad would show up in the pretty much the exact same place, right? The pizza eaters aren't different just cuz they buy pizza from a different place. Um, so I think where how the brand shows up, obviously I'm not a creative guy, but you see the creative the things happening in that space around the ability to create content at scale, at speed, be able to match the moment. And so as we think about contextual advertising, as we think about the power of culture, the ability to kind of have a kind of big brand message that's consistent, but at the same time see many different versions of what that looks like that maybe meet people more in the moment. I think that would be a big theme in 2026 and beyond. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I think it'll also help with like, you know, audience development and being able to make sure that we're able to get this tailored message out to the right people. >> Yeah. as you think about integration and IATS like do you find you're bringing creative and media much closer together in those situations as well? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean our hope is that you know we work really closely with Cara and our audience teams to develop very clear audiences and needs and then start to build creative that start to match those needs. And so you might start to have multiple versions of uh creative for the same product that each have a little bit of a a different message andor positioning to make sure that you're targeted to the right consumer. And I think that's a you know for us you know I think it's happening across many industries but like it's a pretty big change for us to start thinking about moving away from having like one ad that's out there to now having multiple messages but all towards the same goal. >> And how is that changing for for you in the a on the agency side? Yeah, I think it's a it's a welcome change. I think we we've always really believed that media and creative should be very close together. I think on our side, we spend, you know, significant amount of time, to Chevron's point, thinking about audiences and where's the growth potential and, you know, there's a lot of overlap for the creative agency there. And I think if we're not working hand inand all of a sudden, you know, you're just little differences in audience definitions can make a big difference overall in what that experience looks like. So our role is to be a very open partner to those creative agencies to make sure that we're looking at the ideation that we're seating where we're seeing audience growth opportunities so that they're building campaigns around that versus hey we built this beautiful 30 secondond TV ad that we love. It's very anthemic but it actually doesn't talk back to the audience that we're we're trying to get to. So in today's world where you you know that that line is so blurred we we go back to those roots of media plus creative being together. >> Yeah. So this is all changing really fast, continues to change really fast. What's next for Papa John's? Like what new kind of media platforms, tactics, frontiers are you are you looking at next? >> Yeah, I mean I think for us like there's definitely a huge opportunity to continue to move into short form video and continuing to build those audiences across not only our own channels, but finding the right creators and partners to go tell our story. I think that's going to be a big push as we look to next year and continuing to build more of those like I would say multi- messaging windows because there's we've got an incredible menu and a lot of great products and there are different consumers who are looking for different products at any time. The best part about the restaurant world is right you have to eat three times a day which means we have at least three times every day to get you to come in and so how do we make sure that we're tailoring that message in the best way possible. >> Awesome. I want to leave some time for questions from the audience. So raise your hands and somebody will bring a mic to you. I can't really see you. So >> yeah, we can't see anything. So we promise William. >> Don't be shy. >> I think I see some movement. >> It's a shadow. >> No questions. >> We answered everything. We're just >> Wow. There you go. >> We predicted the future of media. >> Yeah. >> Um Okay. Okay. Well, if you had to describe what's going to happen in media in one word, what would it be? >> I'll let you go. I'll let you [laughter] >> client service and inspire. Uh change. Yeah. I mean, I think that there's just going to be an inordinate amount of change and we have to be ready to to take that on and that change creates opportunity. I say uh attention. I think it's going to get harder and harder to get people's attention and that's going to require us to be even more relevant with our creative and our messaging in order to make sure that you can break through. Especially as you're starting to see it go from it was a 30-second ad to a 15-second ad to a 6-second ad to now it's like okay how quickly can I swipe through something? >> Yeah. How do you like optimize for that? I guess what's what sort of things are you trying to catch and and consumers attention is it's getting shorter and shorter, right? So, how are you what are you playing around with to >> Yeah, I I mean >> experiment thankfully there's a ton of data that we have with our partners and you know we spend time with Carol almost on a weekly basis going through here are all the you know the ad inventory that we have out in the world here are all the different messages and different types of creative what's relevant right now what's working converting what isn't and that helps us understand you know sometimes it could be you know uh having a person in there is more beneficial having better visuals um looking at the messaging uh thinking about even like, you know, when you get down to like the uh conversion format, like it could be the colors, you know, like purple works better than green and maybe green works better than yellow. And so there's so many different variables that we now have the ability to start looking at to really understand like what's performing and what's not performing. And hopefully we get to a place where it still allows us to have some of the art and it's not just a science. >> Yeah. Do you how do you kind of wade through the signal overload because there are so many signals and you can kind of measure things in so many different ways in terms of is it incrementality, is it reach, is it so like how do you find the metric you're looking for and weed out the noise? I >> I mean I think for us it's a little bit easier cuz at the end of the day it's sales. So we can see if our sales are moving in the right direction, then we have a good understanding that like all the levers that we're pulling are working. And if they're not, then we have a good understanding, then we've got to go dig in a little bit deeper to see what's working and what's not. >> Yeah. I think what we try to talk to our clients about is just having at least a northstar like some foundational principles that you're staying true to because yeah in the world of signal overload, data overload, sales feedback, you could start chasing very quickly anyone given consumer, small group. So what and what worked in one week might not work the next week. So I think if you start chasing things then all of a sudden you've lost the point and that probably puts you too far down that the rabbit hole of performance and then all of a sudden nobody remembers who your brand is. So I think you have to really kind of stay true to those principles and some of that plays back as Siobhan was saying in the consistency of messaging like anywhere that Papa John shows up it should look relatively the same. it the message could be a little bit different, the experience could be a little different, but you kind of you know what they stand for, you know who they are, you could recite the tagline, those type of things. So, I think having those kind of foundational principles and a northstar of, you know, until it veers off course this much, we're probably not going to go chase that that opportunity. >> Yeah. Okay. Awesome. One more call for questions. >> I think there might be one down there. >> And you you have Okay. Yeah. Go ahead. What would you do differently if your budget were cut half? >> Um, is a is a great question. I mean, I think I think it comes back to what like what our goals are. And for us, um, in the pizza world, it's really important or in the restaurant world in general, it's really important to stay top of mind. you have to be there in the moments where people are thinking about your um product or thinking about ordering or making you know purchase decisions. And so for me at least what I would look at is where can I have the biggest impact in making sure that I'm showing up in those moments and those times. >> What would you want to consider? >> Yeah, I think it's probably you know for me I would think about more consideration driving advertising at that point in time. So I'd be looking at things like how do I make sure I'm showing up in you know the right linear television moments? How am I showing up in your social feeds? How am I making sure that I'm getting you the right appetite appeal? Those are the probably the keys that I would start to look at. Um, just because I want to make sure that when you are thinking about meal time, you're thinking about meat. >> Mhm. >> Awesome. Thank you both so much for being here and thank you all. >> Yeah, I do. >> That was a conversation recorded live at an ADE event. You can find more coverage, analysis, and interviews from across the marketing and media world at adweek.com. Thanks for listening to Adspeak. If you like the show, be sure to follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.