Video summary
Jon Bellion explores why raw talent does not automatically translate into creating the best music, arguing that technical proficiency alone is insufficient for success in the industry. He observes that many top-tier producers lack formal musical training or theoretical knowledge; they rely instead on an innate sense of what feels good rather than adhering to strict harmonic rules like third harmonies within a chord. Bellion admits his own limitations as well, noting he can play complex piano parts but cannot identify the key in which he is playing. He suggests that while some individuals possess a "savant" ability to create soothing music for others, this talent must be balanced with an understanding of how radio programmers and industry gatekeepers operate, rather than relying solely on artistic purity or elitism. Bellion identifies two distinct categories within the artist spectrum: those who function as pure creators focused on skill scales and another group that operates like athletes through rigorous discipline. He emphasizes that while inspiration is essential—comparing a musician to a player whose energy comes from something "bigger than you" rather than themselves—consistency and work ethic are non-negotiable for longevity, especially after having children. Artists often struggle with the urge to wait for perfect moments or get lost in endless riffing sessions that delay shipping products; Bellion advocates for finishing tracks even if they aren't perfect so they can be mastered and released quickly to see what happens in the market. The conversation also touches on how talent itself can become an obstacle when it manifests as self-belief issues or a refusal to engage with the business side of music. Bellion notes that some writers are incredibly adept at social navigation, such as talking to CEOs or attending events like bar mitzvahs, but lack actual songwriting ability. He warns against equating playing an instrument well with industry success, pointing out that understanding radio programming and cultural trends is just as critical as musical skill. Furthermore, he addresses the phenomenon where artists feel their earlier work was superior because it aligned better with current tastes, only to find new albums perceived negatively six years later when those same songs would have been considered classics a decade prior. Throughout the discussion, Bellion reflects on his own career trajectory and the pressure of needing hits versus maintaining artistic integrity over several years where he felt removed from being an artist. He acknowledges that while one cannot "white knuckle" creativity or control cultural shifts entirely, relying solely on waiting for inspiration leads to stagnation. The dialogue highlights a tension between the desire for immediate commercial success and the patience required for art to age well, suggesting that true mastery involves balancing the athlete's approach of drilling and mindset work with the artist's need to remain open to external energy without forcing it out of themselves every day.
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I'm interested in what gets in the way
of talent creating amazing music. We
spoke before about the most talented
people don't necessarily cut the best
songs.
>> Yeah.
>> How is it not the case that the person
who has the most talent doesn't make the
best music? What is it that's getting in
the way?
>> There there might be a talent of making
things that people enjoy to hear.
like Tamman Pa like Kevin of Kevin
Parker he's like I think he just like
has a talent in making things that
people enjoy to listen to. This is
soothing to my ears and I want to play
it on the way to the beach at the club.
It's
>> I don't think he's like
the third chair at the [ __ ] Rag
Manovich orchestra in Australia
>> or some [ __ ]
>> or maybe he he might be a savant in
making the thing that you know what I
mean
>> in delivering instead of that. I've had
this thing. So, I was thinking about um
>> most most Sorry to cut you off. Most of
the the bigger producers I've been
around, I've recognized that they don't
really have any any technical ability.
None. Some of them can't even play
anything.
>> No, they're just like I don't care that
it's the third harmony and that's not in
the chord. The chord just feels good.
That's and that's how I've I've kind of
been blessed enough to kind of be. I I
don't can't tell you what I'm playing on
a keyboard. I can play the [ __ ] out of
the piano, but I can't tell you what key
I'm playing in any of it. I just know
when it comes back to me, I go, I would
listen to this in my free time.
>> Taste.
>> Yo, I'm like sometimes riffers be just
be riffing too much. I don't want to
hear you.
It's like and then you want to play me
the song and you just just [ __ ] all
over the song riffing. It's like I don't
even know what you're trying to tell me.
Let me sit in the let me sit in the room
for a bit and at least look at the
wallpaper before you invite me in the
den. I got to if you try to take me on a
house tour
and then you got to when do you take
them out when they're bored to take them
into the next room. Not just look at
this house and there's purple walls and
there's blue walls this sometimes
[ __ ] be trying to you be trying
to just give them the whole house tour
on the whole [ __ ]
>> Can can talent be an obstacle in that
way?
>> Of course. Tal talent
self-belief. Uh what that's a whole
other deeper conversation. What is
talent? I mean, we could spin our wheels
all day into the the digression of what
the basis of the root of the whatever,
but
talent is like I've just noticed it's
just like that and a dollar and get you
to ride the bus. Like, it doesn't it
doesn't
Some people are talented at just working
the system. I know a lot of writers that
can't write a song.
I'd never mention their names. I never
whatever. I know a lot of writers that
have no business, no business being in a
room writing songs, but damn, you know
how to go to the bar mitzvah. Damn, you
know how to talk to the CEO and get the
dinner.
But the some of the guys in the back be
like, "Okay, if you're going to get me
to the bigger artist and you're the
social bridge that I have to tap dance
to get to, all right, I'm I'm far be it
for me to whatever." But but that's a
talent. Mhm. Mhm.
>> To say that because you play the guitar
better than everybody else makes you
successful in the musical industry,
that's more [ __ ] up than you could
ever imagine.
That there's tal What's a talent, bro?
Talent. Like I play the greatest piano
in the world. It's like, yeah, but do
you know the the radio programmer over?
It's this big weird coagulating thing.
That's where uh the artistic purity
versus the game playing sort of comes
back in again, right? And I think
there's always going to be a sense of
>> elitism in he's so artistically pure if
only he was prepared to lower himself to
the standard of view to have to go to
[ __ ] the dinner the barit or whatever
you know he's above that there's people
it's funny it's like
>> you know for me in in a time in my life
I for those six years I was so removed
from being an artist that I just wanted
hits so my brain wasn't geared toward
Like in 6 years I'm going to go on a
podcast and talk about some of the
biggest songs I ever wrote. For then me
to go on a podcast and talk about all
the giant number one Billboard songs I
have for the comments to be like here's
why I hate every single song. I can't
prove to you that I'm talented. Some
people don't even think I'm talented.
Some people think I'm the most talented
to ever grace the [ __ ] didn't need to
use the British accent then
just thinking he came out of me.
I said, "Oh shit." I said, "I'm in the
remember the audience."
>> I don't know why the British has to fall
into that.
>> Well, I I have to remind you that we are
on stolen land right now. Specifically
stolen from the British.
Yo, I don't know.
>> Should have started with a [ __ ] land
acknowledgement before we began this
podcast.
>> I'm getting way too comfortable with you
right now. We're going to get a a beer
after this. Um, what was that? I don't
even remember what I was saying.
>> I want to tell you I want to tell you
this thing that's been in the back of my
mind. I was thinking about this
conversation and I wondered where you
were going to go when I said what what I
I've realized that people that are very
very talented don't always make that
sell the most records, be the most
popular or whatever, even be the most
liked. like yes. Um,
>> one of the things I've noticed since
being around musicians more over the
last couple of years is that artists
tend to fall into two categories or
there's a spectrum that they're moving
in. And on one side is create like an
artist. That's artistic purity. Uh,
that's skill, that's like are you an
imprario? What's your ability to play
scales? And and also to uh create the
music like on your side like I just know
what's good and I can put it I can put
it into a track.
>> Mhm. On the other side is operating like
an athlete.
>> So create like an artist, operate like
an athlete. And it's okay. How many
repetitions are you doing? Are you in 5
days a week from 11 till 7? Yes.
>> Are you spending your time drilling and
working and looking over game tape and
working on your mindset and nutrition
and you know whatever it is like all of
the individual components?
>> Yes. Especially after having kids, you
have to be.
>> So can't be Olympic without a uh an
Olympic approach.
One way to look at it would be uh
you have to ship at a pace required to
work out what works and have to ship.
What do you mean
>> ship ship a product?
Send it. It's like, okay, dude, we could
just we could keep [ __ ] trying to
record this riff for the next 3 weeks.
>> Send the [ __ ] off to get mastered.
Like, mix it, master it. Let's get put
it. Let's see what happens. And um just
a lot of the time what I've seen is that
because artists tend to be like away
with the [ __ ] ferry, you know, like
just a cigarette butt in a [ __ ]
afternoon. I'm in a hammock. I'm going
to have a walk. It's like, "Okay, dude,
can you sit down and do some work,
please?"
>> Yeah.
>> And uh I'm I'm interested in what you
think about the the value of consistency
might be a way to to look at it like
that. And of
>> for sure you're you're
>> I've noticed in my older age that you
can't will it. You walk away from it if
it don't work. Because again, if you're
just the instrument, if the player
doesn't show up that day, you're not
going to be played. A trumpet can't play
itself. A trumpet alone without the
player is like some some like a metal.
But the second the player, the second
God comes in or inspiration or the muse
or the whatever comes in and and plays
through you, it becomes this thing. The
issue is that when the trumpet starts to
believe that it's playing itself and
then you wake up every day and think you
could wheel this into existence and I'm
going to and then you're like why hasn't
it came in a bunch of years is because
you didn't let the thing bigger than you
come in the room. If the thing bigger
than you doesn't come in you will never
have energy. We're not getting energy
from ourselves. You're getting energy
from this like I don't know how that
song was written that day or when that
came or whatever. So you you're a little
less I'm a little less hard on myself
sometimes when it doesn't come out the
way I want it to.
>> You can't white knuckle creativity. You
can't white knuckle creativity and you
can't control culture. Some things
you'll drop and it will not be the right
time and 10 years later this [ __ ] will
be looked back on and be like what an
amazing piece of art and
>> so precient. He was able to predict
where the genre was going to go a decade
before it did.
>> Yeah. And a lot of people in the
beginning they just say it's like I've
dealt with that my whole career. Whole
career. Every album six years later is
like the new one sucks but the old one
was the one. Then six years later the
new one sucks but the old one was the
one. It's like what are you going to do
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