How America’s Healthcare System Keeps You Dependent - Calley Means

why is Modern Health so broken the fundamental incentive that every single lever of healthcare makes more money when a child is sicker for longer periods of time I mean let's get out of conspiracy theories let's get out of any conjecture just is a fundamental statement of economic fact I want everyone to assess this for themselves and everyone to think about this but you look at insurance companies people don't realize this but the Affordable Care Act Obamacare they set a 15% medical loss ratio so insurance companies only make a 15% profit margin okay but by law they can raise premiums to get that 15% so it was a big populous thing with Obamacare it's like why are why are insurance companies making such high profit but when you put it that it's only 15% and they can raise prices to get that 15% what does that incentivize it incentivizes higher costs what does that mean it means more people getting sick the insurance industry is directly unimpeachably incentivized for more Americans to get sick and what has happened since Obamacare uh premiums have doubled in the past 10 years so healthcare costs have been the highest driver of inflation and I talked to you know on this journey talking to many Insurance Executives reach out behind closed doors they say it's absolutely obvious nobody's trying to be evil at those insurance companies but when it comes between you know incentivizing exercise incentivizing healthy eating and just kind of ignoring that and having more and more people get sick and paying out more and more costs that's what they're incentivized to do obviously pharmaceutical companies 95% of medical spending 95% of far sales are on chronic disease treatments okay so it's when you get heart disease get kidney disease get cancer get these conditions that are lifetime management they're lifetime management drugs that's a beautiful invention because chronic disease that has to be managed not cured is recurring Revenue so there hasn't been new antibiotic strains invented in the past 30 years because that's a pill that you take and get off it's all about chronic disease management so just fundamentally uh when Insurance when a pharmaceutical company can get you on this chronic disease pharmaceutical treadmill that's a profitable patient and when it happens earlier and earlier and that kid gets sick but doesn't die just suffers that economically is a good thing and and this is why there's this devil spark in where fundamentally you know nine out of 10 killers of Americans the the the conditions that are torturing our lives are lifestyle related and you have heart disease rates exploding among kids you have cancer rates now exploding among kids you have what you mean you say kids under 18 yeah under 18 the New York Times recently pediatric cancer rates are at an all-time high this year in 2024 the New York Times recently did an article about this on the front page it said cancer rates are exploding among kids nobody knows why so the pharmaceutical industry isn't interested in why that's happening and we know why it's happening it's happening because of environmental factors food sedentary lifestyle they are profiting from that and you know Ju Just a good long-term patient is a healthy patient so cancer rates have gone up among kids prescriptions of statens have doubled among high schoolers in just the past 5 years we all know about anti-depressants they're prescribed like candy so just if you just think about it what a pharmaceutical company wants a healthy thriving child that's exercising that's eating healthy that's in the sunlight that's not a profitable patient so that's the pharmaceutical interest why are you focusing on kids much more of the population that isn't a kid than is a kid so two reasons I think what is unimpeachable about the kids argument is it takes away this thing I used to say a lot growing up and and still a conservative I consider myself about personal responsibility right it's not a personal responsibility free choice situation that we have an epidemic of heart disease diabetes obesity among children right now uh right now 50% of teens are overweight or obese it's it's like 20% of six-year-olds like like the childhood obesity rate in Japan is 3% so i' like to talk about kids because I think obviously you know we your listeners many of us people reading books listening to podcasts we're on a personal responsibility Journey but there's something systemic happening and so you in a way you're sort of using children as kind of a canar in the colan they're a litmus test in one way of what is being imposed when personal responsibility is put to one side yeah I don't think I don't think parents are trying to mass poison their kids but that is what happen that's interesting so just to kind of reframe because I really want this episode with yourself to be a One-Stop shop selfishly for me uh but also for everybody that's listening to understand when we hear chronic disease chronic inflammation metabolic health environmental toxins everything like that to go through the full works of that to understand the system behind the scenes and to hear your sort of proposal for what's going on so it sounds like so far uh there are incentives amongst insurance companies because their profits are capped if they're capped at 15% then what that means is that you actually it 15% can grow right it's just not going to grow as a proportion so you need to make the entire pie bigger so that the 15% of that increases okay also when it comes to pharmaceutical companies a chronically sick person is going to make you more money than somebody who you were able to nip in the bud early on what's next as a part of this system just go through the healthcare stack the next of the hospitals fundamentally hospitals and and and hospitals are the biggest employers of America in the country um the healthcare industry is both the largest and fastest growing and most employed industry in the company and most of those folks are at hospitals so the fundamental incentive structure for a hospital to grow is interventions that is how you know my friends Marv business school they go and become administrators and Executives at hospitals they are hired and fired based on how many beds they're filling and how many interventions they're doing an intervention an intervention coming in getting a surgery getting chronic disease treatment you know a lot of our friends have autoimmune conditions Crohn's disease the standard of care for Crohn's disease is going into an Outpatient Center once a month and getting um various IVs you know when we make issues chronic we talk a lot about obesity now the standard of care for obesity is Lifetime OIC shots lifetime SSRI prescriptions when you're depressed when you have these situations uh where each chronic condition we can go through is treated as a lifetime management plan that not only helps the pharmaceu IAL industry which is prescribing those lifetime drugs but it involves the patient coming in and getting Continued Care and continued management for conditions that often can be reversed so you have a situation where when you have chronically sick patients they're racking up pharmaceutical buildings but they're also racking up Hospital charges as my sister Casey means who you know my co-author Stanford med school surgical resident uh it's called Eat what you kill I mean that's what she's indoctrinated with at Stanford med school and in residency uh people's bonuses their pay is based on how many interventions they prescribe you know my sister remembers at Stanford Medical School seeing folks in the oncology unit the cancer un unit sobbing in the hallways because people with stage four pancreatic cancer uh the attending surgeon said if they come in here with stage four pancreatic cancer they're getting cut open often they're they're going to die anyway that you know just statistically these inter interventions these surgical procedures aren't even that effective but when you have the power of the medical system and you're going to make a million dollars from going the surgical intervention route even if it's ineffective and make no money if you go the patient goes and enjoys their remaining time of life and goes on a you know more holistic Journey the doctor in that lab coat can has a lot of power and there's a clear economic incentive for them to prescribe that intervention path okay so I always get stick with this on the internet so I'm ready to stick for it again good I always default to non-c conspiracism I'm I'm very sort of non-c conspiratorial and it sounds at the moment so far like uh the insurance companies uh both want to purposefully drive up the price of everybody's healthare so that they can make profits regardless of the thing that they're supposed to be able to provide which is access to uh easy Healthcare that the pharmaceutical companies also are not in the business of creating drugs to make people's lives better they're exclusively in it for the various purpose of trying to maximize profits which means making sub quality drugs which require dependency for diseases that are only detected after someone's got there and then the people that all of us know every single person listening to this knows somebody who's a nurse or who's a doctor or who's a surgeon or who's a whatever uh these people are also complicit fully complicit they're on board they're trying to they're giving people surgeries that they don't need they're prescribing them drugs that they don't need they're not suggesting them solutions that would be better for that to me I know people that are doctor and I know that they don't think like that all of them at least my friends now I have a very small very small cohort it's like five people that are doctors in America and maybe like another five in the UK how sort of square that Circle to me just how sort of end how cancerous are the systems and is it Bad actors is it just incentives is it people putting profits over principles what's what's the motive here I I loved your conversation with Ben shapir about really being skeptical of conspiracy theories and I was actually thinking a lot about our conversation it's a core point and argument I want to make to you want to make to listeners you should be very skeptical of conspiracy theories but we also need to be skeptical when the largest industry of the country has certain economic incentives and assuming that systemically everyone within that system is going against the economic incentiv structured by that industry again the core Point let's get out of the motivations 100% doctors are amazing people I think what's tragic what Casey talks about in the book is that she joins Stanford med school right she did not join to overseas sick patients every doctor at Stanford med school and other Med schools right there's easier ways to make money than trying to sabotage the American people so what happens we take the breast and the bryces we put them in the medical system we saddled them with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt now if you do ask any doctor that's thinking they will acknowledge patients under their care are not getting better right what Casey did is she looked around and she's doing surgery surgery after surgery after surgery she's doing head and neck surgery and people are so inflamed in their sinuses that every day multiple times a day she's cutting open their sinuses they're passed out and taking out the remnants of their inflammation now she again president of San FR under class top of class de med school ni research she's 11 years into uh surgical residency and she for the first time for the first time it occurred to her why is that patient getting inflammation she she she she she never asked that question she had an outof body experience and then she looked at the Pati charts every single patient she was doing inflammation surgery on had at least uh six other comorbidities right more more than six on average so they were seeing the endocrinologist for the diabetes they were seeing the cardiologist for the heart issues they were inevitably depressed they had kidney issues they had all these separate issues and she not once has spoken to another doctor in those systems so she started asking is the are these things interconnected she actually started speaking to a patient she did Sin atis surgery on who had a migraine and she asked okay well I read on Pub mud that might be your migraine and even your inflammation is tied to food she was reprimanded by her attending surgeon her attending surgeon said don't be a [ __ ] you didn't go to dietary uh diet school at nutrition school let the nutritionists handle that they didn't go to medical school serious medicine is cutting people open Serious medicine is issuing prescription the first day of Stanford med school right Philip piso the former dean of Stanford med school lectured the students and he said the American patients are lazy the American patients are going to be sedentary they're going to eat their Big Macs they're going to eat their big drink their big gulps and we are here to clean the mess that idea is indoctrinated into doctors so we have a medical sounds to me to push back there it sounds to me like they are there to clean up the mess that it isn't the job of a surgeon to tell somebody who's 400b you should go back five years and [ __ ] change your diet this gets to your first question and I think this is really the answer you have to look at what a system incentivizes people to do not what people say or even what people's motivations are This Is the Gen of our healthare system is that every single person has plausible deniability right so the dean of Stanford Medical School yeah yeah it's I'm not a nutritionist that's not my but then who should be in charge of talking about why people get sick maybe the NIH maybe the FDA well the former head of the FDA is now on the board of visor and the FDA is 75% funded by the pharmaceutical industry um maybe it should be the media the media the mainstream media is 50% funded by the pharmaceutical industry and doesn't say a word about it so so the question is who is the gatekeeper you're totally right and that is exactly what you know senior senior people in the academic world told me and they they very aggressively tell me that I've gotten called and screamed at by top administrators and doctors at tough nutrition school at Harvard at Stanford I've been threatened right they say it's not our problem but why what has created this toxic stew where Americans are getting so sick why are Americans dying seven years earlier than the Japanese why areic Americans 80% you talk about kids obviously that's the ker and the co mine 80% of Americans right now overweight or obese as Casey says if you were obese in the United States 100 years ago you were in the circus there were case reports written about it it was so rare So something astronomical is happened now now you're more than half of the population now it's now now if you're a thin kid in high school it's weird right you used to drive by a bus stop and see a bunch of kids you know in the 1960s there was one fat kid who was that was the weird one now it's weird to see a thin kid I mean even if you look at South Park you know you have one Fatso right as they call him and then the rest of the kids are a normal size right and that's not not how it is in high schools right now I mean every single so so so so so the the the exploring who has plausible deniability is the key thing I you know again a lot of my kind of view is informed by I I like it a lot of like to Stanford Med or excuse me to Harvard Business School where I went you've got a lot of good people you've got a lot of of very uh I would say smart High horsepower people uh 85% of the class goes works for food companies I have friends that work at Pepsi I have friends that work for fizer right they go and some of them are doctors MDS too it's like we are taking really good people and putting them in these industries that have co-opted our regulatory institutions and are fundamentally as economic incentive their business model is predicated on Americans being addicted Americans being in fear Americans being fatter Americans being sicker Americans being more depressed and frankly Americans being more infertile so um that's the problem with the system that Casey realized why she spoke out radicalize me helped me put the pieces together nobody has responsibility for the health of Americans that's the problem nobody in the system yeah eventually the book stops with we don't know like maybe that guy and then he goes well no it's that guy and then they say no it's that guy and you just keep on what and what they say and what they indoctrinate and what they say at the top of their lungs is that it falls on the American people right so so what everyone's saying is that well the American people are getting fat the American people are eating the themselves to death but the problem is that in America we rightfully have trust at the medical system and there's some degree it's not a partisan issue there's some degree of responsibility it does feel a lot like if you were a firefighter who turned up at a house that was burning and said I mean you know it's really they've got the water in there that's kind of their job to put this out you are you not employed precisely to put out fires you go yeah I know but like it's it's on them like we provide them the water they've got the tools to be able to make this work well absolutely and casy's you just talked about this there needs to be people there to clean up the mess it's not like we should abolish the medical system and not have triple bypass surges it's not like we should have Endocrinology care for kids it's not that we shouldn't have Cardiology care for kids it's not that we shouldn't have you know growing psychiatric departments the question is what nobody's asking is why is the largest building in every major city a gleaming new Pediatric Center literally you know the the the governor of Texas recently came to Houston to open up the largest um Hospital complex in the world uh they bragged actually that you could see it from space um the Republicans and Democrats right when we build new hospitals large parts of which are pediatric centers this is this is heralded as progress nobody not the politicians not the doctors not the NIH nobody is asking why so many kids are going to that's such a good point that uh it seems from the outside like uh anthropy or care or charity uh we're working hard on health and you go I no you're working hard on fixing disease you're not working hard on health working hard on health is that there are smaller hospitals not bigger ones this is my one like Point honestly like like working with politicians right now it's it I cannot express how little this point is understood I mean I was sitting across the table from a chair of a major health committee in Congress and this simple point that nobody in the health system is asking about the health and thriving of Americans it is all R&D and all to generate cash for Industries once people get sick and manage sickness not promote Health this hasn't dawned on senior policy makers and the senior most people creating our health institutions we've been so desensitized and I think the this this Devil's bargain between the food industry making us sick and the healthcare industry profiting is so has so impacted all of our institutions that that simple point is not known and and I will say and I think there's optimism from the bottoms up and the top down like the more we can promote that point the more we can you know tell Americans that they should feel emboldened to get outside the medical system when it comes to Chronic conditions and we can talk about a chronic versus acute and the more frankly policy makers understand that the problem with Healthcare is not page 300 of the Medicare Part D it's not about what we hear about on the news of like even whether it's Medicare for all or socialism this the problem is no matter what system we have it's that it's incentivized for Americans to be sick that's the problem and the more we can realize that simple fact and ask that question whenever we're dealing with the medical system is this person across the table from me incentivized if I get sick that will change the world so it's incentives incentives yeah and they're good people like like like we have to like this is not um you know the the plausible deniability is so pronounced right that that your friends that are doctors in an emergency room or doctors in a cardiologist W they're do they're saving people right they're seeing Time After Time After Time Americans come in with with absolutely just just depressing conditions and they're going to die soon and and and and and but they're not promoting Health right and and the and the and the interventions they're prescribing right the the stands or the emergency surgical procedures is not curing anything as Casey said with her had a neck surgery the sinusitis patients came back back almost everyone under her knife was under there a year ago for the inflammation right when you do all these procedures you are saving that person in that moment but you're not curing anything so they're not creating any health for Americans they are cleaning up the mess and somebody at some point in time needs to say how do we reoriented the healthare system to promote health over the span of about a year I tried pretty much every green drink that I could trying to work out which one was best and I came across ag1 and stuck with it for over 3 years because it's the best I know that you might be skeptical about taking anything that replaces food this isn't supposed to replace food it's just foundational nutrition it's insurance for 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biggest issues you know you've mentioned obesity you mentioned a few like information and stuff like that um I want to know first off biggest issues in healthc care from a high level perspective well I don't mean to dispute the perise of the question but I think I think that question is really important to to get right I'd reframe it slightly what the medical system wants you to do is answer that question in particular silos they want oh it's heart disease that's the number one killer it's diabet that's that's that's a big issue or it's depression the mission we're on like the one medical Point Casey and I are trying to explain is that all of these chronic conditions are branches of One Tree it's a lie that Casey graduates from Stanford med school and she chooses between 42 Specialties that's what doctors have to do right now they choose 42 Specialties okay so we saded the body into neurology into the skin right into Dermatology into the head and neck surgery right into Cardiology into brain surgery so so so a doctor chooses like one narrow part of the body and then there's 82 sub Specialties so the dean I mentioned uh excuse me so the dean was Philip piso and then Lloyd Miner is the current dean of Stanford med school he was ahead of neck surgeon like my sister but he's the Paradigm of great medicine because he did a fellowship and he focused on two millimeters of the body he actually focused his entire career on like one little part of the nose and that's the that's the highest etal out of medicine the more specialized you can be and that's super profitable as I said you look at the notes and they've seen you know patients seen nine different doctors the average American dies having seen 18 Specialists individual specialists in their entire life so this siloing of disease and this question of like well is it a heart disease no we are being besieged by chronic disease so let me just say it again 90% of medical costs and nine out of 10 killers of Americans are preventable and often reversible uh lifestyle conditions so the obvious ones are heart disease and diabetes okay but diabetes is not a silo diabetes is an arbitrary point of blood sugar disregulation okay it's arbitrary it doesn't actually mean anything medically it's just if your blood sugars at a certain point you've got diabetes blood sugar disregulation which more than 50% of the country has is a root of many other things it's highly tied to many forms of cancer breast cancer is highly tied to blood sugar regulation it's exploded in the past generation if you don't have pre-diabetes or diabetes you have a very low chance of getting bre breast cancer pancreatic cancer many other forms of cancer so that's connected it's not just one Silo um and if you change our diet and these completely reversible and preventable conditions you could take heart disease diabetes rates down to zero but then you get to some less obvious ones you get to the Alzheimer Alzheimer's is now called type 3 diabetes if you do not have pre-diabetes or diabetes you have have a very low chance of getting Alzheimer's Alzheimer's in our brain is part of our body uh diabetes pre-diabetes blood sugar regulations are cells having problems creating energy 20% of the energy is created in our brain it's not some siloed thing so if if this energy just regulation from our environment from our food from our sedentary Lifestyles our cells not function correctly it's showing up in other parts of body it shows up in the brain so if you're diabetic for instance you have four times higher chance of getting depression or committing suicide you know our brain is connected the rest of our body so all of these things kidney dis upper respiratory def uh infections even co co it's come out very clearly it was like four comorbidities the average person that died of covid had I mean it's it's almost a definitive statement you can make if you were five metabolic biomarkers were in normal range and that's HDL triglycerides blood sugar blood pressure and waistline if those five biomarkers that Define metabolic dysfunction were in a normal range you had an almost 0% chance of dying of Co no matter what age you are so all these things are connected and that point is offc by the medical system it's a huge problem you mentioned that these are lots of branches on a single tree what would be the trunk of the tree metabolic dysfunction metabolic dysfunction metabol defining some terms chronic disease chronic inflammation metabolic Health what are they chronic disease is something that will not kill you right away is how I Define it C if you have a infection if you have you know a a a a major acute card cardiac issue where you need surgery if you have a complicated childbirth if you have a inflamed appendix the medical system is a miracle that's a cute go to the medical system so the way to think about it is if something has a chance of killing you or your child imminently rush to the hospital give the doctor the benefit of the doubt Peter the first graph in his book talks about acute and infectious conditions okay that is 100% the contributors advancements AC acute infection to the doubling of Life expects we always hear about so you'll have people come on and they'll say well the medical system you know there's problems but it's a miracle we doubled life expect in the past 100 years he takes out chronic conditions right it's contributed nothing to life expectancy and that's 95% 90 to 95% of medical spending it's all acute and infectious disease management that's where medical miracle if we think of a medical miracle we're probably thinking of something that's an acute surgical or pharmaceutical intervention like like antibiotics so if something is going to kill you right away if your child is like has a infection go to the doctor now acute excuse me with chronic let's think about what's happening I always take it to kids because I think it's it's it's it's hallucinating to the rest of the the adults but high cholesterol what happens oh you got to go on the Staten it's risky if you don't go on the Staten the kids a little bit sad you got to go in an SSRI right the kids's a little fidgety got to go on Aderall you know the kid um has high blood sugar right mform and now now the American Academy Pediatrics is saying that if a child is overweight overweight 50% of 12-y olds that is OIC like that that's the guidelines it's the medical guidelines it's not wait and see is this being released as a press announcement big press announcement from the American Academy theatrics about eight months ago the American Academy Pediatrics which sets the standard of care which is endowed by Congress to set the standard of care for Pediatrics it's 90 for again not conspiratorial just just facts is 90% funded by the pharmaceutical industry this Danish company Novo nordics which makes OIC the ninth most valuable company in the world is a huge funer of the American Academy Pediatrics which came out with a press release it can be Googled where it says don't wait and see wait and see is out the window emergency quick aggressive interventions when that 12-year-old's overweight is what the standard of care is okay chronic inflammation um chronic inflammation is um is is our body's reaction to a foreign Invader inflammation can be good right inflammation is actually our body's response to something foreign in our body it's it's an evolutionary very beneficial thing but why are we chronically inflamed right we are ingesting things through our food and through our environment that we aren't evolutionarily made to have in our bodies our bodies for whatever reason the majority of Americans think that there's something foreign inside us that they need to be reacting to so you've had guests on and we talk and I have all these dietary debates right you know is there the right you know human randomized control study on seed oils on the food colorings on all these chemicals we have in our food now I I think there's a real place for that but we've taken leave of our common sense a little bit I think seed oils did not exist in this world 100 years ago they are a highly processed manufactured ingredient right they are in our food because it's cheap and descendants of John D Rockefeller after finding a way to create this product this engine lubricant figured they could make more money by putting it in the American diet as a cheaper oil okay not conspir oil just the facts that's true but I'm yet to see any studies and I I avoid SE also I'm yet to see a single study that says that the consumption of seed oils as a seed oil is actually related to any negative Health outcomes you're playing on a terrible when you start looking for the studies of whether it's the dyes in our food of whether it's the seed oils of whether it's the highly processed grains spr sprayed with glyphosate where there's not a study in the United States definitively that says that's bad but people that spray glyphosate on our crops need to wear hazmat suits and it's literally a herbicide that kills any organism that it touches you you get into a situation where just on the chronic inflammation front let's just use common sense to which we've been completely divorced from you know in our medical discussion whatever it is we are just just by definition putting items in our body that did not exist throughout human evolutionary you know history right the foundation of our diet I talk about this a lot the three things that make up halter process food are refined sugar which is a new invention the past hundred years highly processed grains which are not grain they're taking the fiber off they're you know basically Franken foods and then seed oils which which just again not getting into any pwed study is a new invention right that's highly highly processed they have to use bleach and other things to make it these foods are going in our bodies among many other environmental toxins and causing our bodies to react with chronic inflammation and be in a constant state of stress like if you get into this thing it's getting into the same thing with the 42 Specialties it's getting the same thing of like okay no no no it's it's it's not the sugar it's this it's not the glyphosate it's this that's the game we try to get podcasters talk about while working for the food industry like that's why we create so many studies like I think it's very important of course to be evidence-based but the purpose of studies is PR right so you're saying that even if you're looking at the evidence-based community that can only be Downstream from what evidence is available and the evidence which is available is based on the studies that have been conducted and the studies that have been conducted are going to be incent cized or paid for or focused on by people who have incentives for that particular area to be looked at the Atlantic magazine when we did our testimony to the Senate with with health leaders last week ran an article calling us the woow woo caucus and attacking us for not being science and evidence back by saying glyphosate might be a problem right the Atlantic is the the billionaire owner you know the guy who started Atlantic made his money from Pharma and it's it's heavily funded by the pharmaceutical industry right they used the fact that the FDA to this day says glyphosate which is a herbicide sprayed on our crops from China often um again that's that kills every organism on site that that there's not evidence to say that that's harmful for the US diet so you have the studies saying that you have the media prompting that you have the the people that should be kind of the referees and Protectors of kids and Protectors of us the government the media other referees they're actually referees for the industry that's paying them Pharma let's not forget yet right owns the Regulatory Agencies pays 75% of the FDA as we talked about but is also five times more higher political donator than the oil industry by far the largest they're the largest literally payer of politicians themselves so you have all the referees basically saying you're anti-science using the rig scientific studies now I'm not saying there shouldn't be any like evidence-based um work although I would argue that if you fire every single nutrition researcher in the country uh literally and replace it no I'm not joking if you if you fire and cut I'm actually not being hyperbolic if you if you fire every single nutrition advisor uh in the country all and all funding whatsoever for nutrition research and have a principle that we should REM we should lower our percentage of ultra processed food consumption from 70% to 20% it would radically just unleash human capital in this country and unleash Health um another thing we should consider doing is firing every single nutrition advisor and all funding for nutrition studies and just adopt Fran's lines if you want to be evidence-based the French live 6 years longer are we lazier than the French what a day you managed to insult both US Congress and the French in the same sentence there um but yeah yeah it just it just the LA the last point I'll make this kind of a spiritual like point you know is is is clearly just something wrong is happening holistically with getting detached from our Farmers or soil like natural food that we're putting in our body we're raping the soil with our industrial agriculture where a tomato in the United States is 70% has 70% lower nutrient content than a tomato grown in the United States 50 years ago like there's something like really bad happening with their ultr processed food and trying to isolate like one little variable we're just putting all this manufactured chemical ating crap in our bodies instead of just having a higher level perspective of it I think is playing into the system and we we we don't need to like isolate one variable we need a fundamental reset of getting back to Whole Food uh as an urgent medical imperative I think that's an interesting framing that the problem is so multifaceted and coming from so many different directions that trying to individually snipe each one of these different playing the game of the of the of the enemy but also ineffective because you know for each one that you take down there's still 50 49 48 that are there and by the time that you get to 45 five more have been added that have have changed something else so you've mentioned a couple of times you've sort of compared America specifically to other countries to France to Japan what is uniquely happening in America is it Food and Drugs and the quality of the municiple water or is it something else what's the comparison between Europe and Europe's food and better environment and vome and air quality and environmental toxins versus everyone else yeah so so what are the components of metabolic Health it's multifactorial 100% but food is really important food we 3D print our cells and 3D print our bodies out of food so you've got to start with food and what is happening to our food we have a much higher percentage consumption of ultrapress food in America as a starter than Europe and Japan and every other developed country we're at 70% for kids and again like and you have folks on that I really respect come on oh let's not demonize any particular food and sure you can get into Nuance but I go back to what is ultra processed food Ultra processed food is addiction instruments created by the cigarette industry we all have to just understand that so if we're going to talk about facts let's just understand that the cigarette industry was the largest food producer in the 1990s can you create that lineage for me tell story so in the 1980s Philip Morris and R.J Reynolds were two of the 10 most valuable companies in the world cigarette addiction dopamine is really good business so it wasn't Google and Microsoft in the 80s of the cigarette companies so the General way too late had some courage and said cigarette smoking is bad for the first time in the 1980s so they had the largest cash piles in human history of the history of capitalism they had high balance sheets High cash piles and as they saw the writing on the wall that cigarettes were declining they started strategically buying food companies so they the biggest m&a deals in the 1980s the three biggest m&a deals when you know the 1980s Wall Street kind of all this m&a activity the three biggest deals in human history up until 1990 were cigarette companies buying food companies it was uh RJ Reynolds buying Nabisco and then CRA uh excuse me uh Philip Morris bought craft and US Foods which was a big conglomerate just for the people who aren't so business pilled uh what's Downstream from some of those big companies more brands that people might actually recognize almost every single brand that we know has has disaggregated from US Foods which is like every brand we you know you've got those viral charts where it shows like four compan Disney is one of those Disney Disney owns every show that you watch yeah yeah so there's these viral charts going around where it's like five companies and like it's like thousands of sub Brands this is those brand those three companies so they they were all owned and and and and in the 1990s by cigarette companies and RJ ridds and Philip Morris were the two largest food producers in the world so this wasn't like some you know you talked about don't demonize food I'm absolutely demonizing Ultra processed food these this food was created by the cigarette industry literally and what happened when the cigarette industry bought these food companies they shift their scientists from the cigarette Department the food department and when I say weaponized I'm not being conspiratorial and I'm not being hyperbolic they put the world's highest paid scientists that they had employed at their companies and asked how do we make this food more addictive they're not trying to kill people right they're probably going home and thinking they're doing good things they're making palatable great food they're creating cheaper calories for lower income Americans they're providing Joy right they're making dunkaroos and all these all these fun things and cereal that's really fun so so so so again the plausible deniability but that's what they did they weren't trying to make things healthy and then they what were they good at the cigarette companies they were good at the addiction so they did that and then they were good at lobbying the 1980s was way too late for the you know Surgeon General to come out they they delayed that 20 years they use the same Playbook that they're still using today they bought off the USDA and created the food pyramid the food pyramid was the deadliest document I believe in American history the thing in 1992 that said that we should have carbs and basically process proc food and sugar at the base of the pyramid and that meat was kind of this Niche thing and fruits and vegetables were up here was it was carbs and processed food and my parents and all the parents in the 90s growing raising kids thought they were doing good things for getting their kids you know the crackers and lowfat crap what's the truth behind the story of how that food pyramid was created who did it why it happened the cigarette industry funded research at Harvard from the sugar research Council they created the sugar research Council and the sugar research Council they didn't even hide the name sounds like gay research counil now it's like now it's like at least they hide it a little bit it's like the you know Health Nutrition Freedom Council now it was the sugar research Council so the sugar research Council was the chief donor to the Harvard nutrition school so the Harvard the chief nutritionist at Harvard created reports in the 1980s saying sugar doesn't cause obesity and is a key important uh part of child's energy balance and that that added sugar is actually a really good thing so the foundational research everyone can Google this the foundational research of the food pyramid was research from Harvard look at the report down at the who's funding it the sugar research Council funded it so it's like a human centipede of what goes in and this is not complicated I mean I worked you know years later for the food industry but we know that people what what what higher what higher level do we have than a report from Harvard like what higher level do we have than a report from the I uh excuse me that from the NIH so this was something that I was interested to ask you which is I understand how the system can be rigged how incentives behind the scenes about profit motives and so on and so forth but it it seems very much that it's not simply the ultr processed foods very palatable that there is both a top- down uh swaying of the wind but there's also a bottom up culture of the way that people eat Beyond this is simply very very uh healthy and that's one of the injections that's one of the ways that you can bottom up rig the culture as opposed to just rigging the system through education MH right incorrect education yeah I get really sad um about you know thinking people kind of did to cry American culture and say the Italians and the French have a better food culture I mean this is where I really really try to make a clear point which is that our culture is defined by our policies often and um you know when we have completely co-opted our you know dietary guidelines to say ultra-processed food and sugar and carbs are really good you know Americans listen to that and you know in the 1990 right to 2000 you know the 10 years since the food paramid our consumption of carbs as a percentage of our diet went up 20% so I think we actually did have a relatively good culture in America in the 70s ' 80s like I I joke we'd be healthier if the cigarette companies went back to making cigarettes like like like like like I think we were kind of a threat you look at like you look at like you know the videos from the 70s and the 60s like Americans were good-looking people we were like we were like really really on point I think we I think our culture because everyone was smoking they didn't have any time to eat I mean I mean I don't think smoking's great but like you know there was something better happening back there we didn't had much lower rates of cancer like the Surgeon General report was all I'm not endorsing smoking but like this we got it all wrong like the surgeon general report came out on smoking to reduce cancer can't like I tweeted The graft recently it's like 8X increase per capita in cancer in the United States it's exploding it's so hilarious yeah uh what is a lower income families food and health education like now yeah so we have a we have a I think I think it's the most criminal policy and kind of dynamic in America what we do to poor people in this country and our systems that feed and medicate poor people is are completely co-opted so let's look at a lower-income family so 15% of Americans low-income in Americans are on snap food stamps supplemental nutrition assistance program um we are the only country in the world where this you know nutrition program can go to sugary drinks so 10% of snap 10% of this program which is the main source of nutrition for lower income people 15% of the country goes to soda um so I do not think Coke should be banned I think most drugs should be legal right I think that cigarette should be legal right I enjoy you know beer you know and drinks what whatever like it should all be legal but we subsidize we send1 billion dollar a year from the US Treasury to soda companies from Food Stamps and tell moms that are depending on that program that you know this is nutritious and with that who tells the moms that it's nutritious well the m a single mom working hard lower income would assume the supplemental nutrition assistance program could go to food that's not going to poison her kid there's no nutritional value from soda right because you can spend so I've immigrant to this country also massive idiot can you just explain what food stamps are and how yeah it's like a card the lower income folks get to help them buy food like a credit card yeah and but it's only valid at certain stores for certain inventory inventory is dictated by the nutrition guidelines and because the USD nutrition guidelines and this is all multifactorial but the the food stamp program goes by the USDA nutrition guidelines okay which is like the main nutrition guidelines for the country that set the standards for a lot of other government programs working for the food industry okay so the nutrition guidelines are pretty important okay let's get to the nutrition advisors the 20 people that make nutrition guidelines are outside experts from Harvard and tough nutrition School in Stanford 19 of the 20 advisers on the US nutrition guidelines committee are paid for by food and or Pharma companies processed food companies so the nutrition guidelines today say that a 2-year-old that up to 10% of their diet can be added sugar perfectly healthy it also just released a report saying that Ultra processed food there's no evidence that's bad for kids and a child's diet can be 93% ultra processed food and perfectly healthy so so so that goes so so so if you're a mom and you're struggling to make ends meet and you have a government program where your kid has a card and you have a card and you're shopping for your family we are allowed to have an opinion on not poisoning the American people in this country but because the science is rigged and these companies got to the scientists that the the program for lower income people is subsidizing 10% soda and then 70% of food stamps snap goes to ultra processed food so you know it's it's just crazy rules I was recently we're partnering with the CEO of and founders of sweet green which is a great company you know making healthy food grass-fed steak you know fast that's not available on food stamps but McDonald's is so so you just have very you have wild rules calorie for calorie you would be uh running behind with going to I love me some I absolutely love it but uh I wonder I'm trying to play devil's advocate here despite not eating much of this right um I'm trying to wonder about calorie density uh ease of access to the food you're a busy mom uh do you have time from scratch it's you know the sweet potato and I I'll get the potato peeler out and we'll throw those in with some organic olive oil and oregano can go in you know um I the the soda example is so perfect because it's so evidently pointless right right it has no satiety yeah yes and when we it's the most empty calories that you ever I mean you could even do it and say this is available for soda but only diet soda yeah you could even do that if you wanted to dial back the amount of calories that yes yeah the the the the the cheap calorie thing is interesting and you know you folks and I we're trying to get Lane nordam have huge respect for him he's super rigorous would never debate you know what the studies say with him um but I think there's I'm kind of on the corruption level and I think what what the problem with ultra processed food you know getting out of the calories a calorie debate or anything with that it's weaponized to make us want to eat more so so when when you subsidize Ultra Pro food for lower inome Americans the the point of that food the point of the food is to hijack our biology so you cannot if you ever overe eaten steak or overeaten broccoli onore I'm not yeah yeah you you can't really overeat like like like I always say there's not an obesity epidemic or diabetes epidemic among wild animals like like we're born with under you know Unison with the food we're supposed to be eating to to trigger ATI we can regulate s quite nicely until it gets hacked 100% ultra-processed food deliberately from tobacco scientists is meant to hack our brains to be ultra palatable to not produce satiety so so that's the Criminal part the cheap calories thing actually doesn't make quite so much sense all well and good if you take calorie per calorie compare how much it is for the sweet potato that someone's got to chop up versus how much it is for the hot pocket that somebody could throw in calorie for calorie it may be cheaper for the hot pocket but you're going to consume two three times as many calories from that that are going to be free from a lower source that are going to be more highly processed and then when you actually run the calorie for calorie allowance it's probably brought it back in line or maybe the sweet potato is now lower so that's problem number one problem number two that how did I know that there was going to be so so problem number two with subsidizing this Ultra processed food for for kids um and and and saying it's perfectly healthy is and I think this has missed a little bit from the evidence-based Community then we can just use common sense and there's increasing evidence coming up this cheap dead you know hyper processed food is absolutely causing issues to our cells and to our microbiome in ways we don't fully understand again we're getting pounded over the head for more studies and that we're not being evidence-based on talking about the herbicides and pesticides on our food right which is like sprayed over things it's like do we need to wait 10 years for a peer-reviewed you know study to say that spraying herbicides and pesticides all over children's food might be bad for their microbiome which produces 95% of their serotonin regulates almost every single hormone and is completely under threat like like like like like to the cheap so the cheap food getting away from natural food also inevitably is putting these 10 we have 10,000 uh chemicals that are uh are allowed in our food in the United States there's 400 in Europe so it it's it's actually you have to prove harm in Europe you have to prove that they're um that you have to prove that they're good yeah here you have to prove it's it's automatic Assumption of guilt or Assumption of Innocence so so so so so there's there's a lot going on there with cheap on natural food too trust really is everything when it comes to supplements a lot of Brands may say that they're top quality but few can actually prove it which is why I partnered with momentus what have you just heard C talking about the things that you think you are putting in your body are not what they say they are however everything that momentus makes is NSF certified it is the highest quality tested supplements on the planet they're literally unparalleled when it comes to rigorous third party testing what you read on the label is what's in the product and absolutely nothing else one of the products that I used last year as I took my testosterone from too low to uh usably high was tonat Ali it is a great natural place to start if you're looking to improve your testosterone so if you want to try it for yourself they will ship internationally and they offer a free 30-day money back guarantee so if you're not sure you can just buy it and try it for 30 days if you don't like it they'll give you your money back you can get a 20% discount by going to the link in the description below or heading to liv.com wisdom using the code modern wisdom a checkout that's L IV m n us.com wisdom and modern wisdom a checkout so you know I've been starting to talk a little bit more about this on the show the last eight months or so has been the worst for my health in my entire life uh and a big chunk of that has been gut health related now I know a number of friends who have got Partners uh Mark Manson's wife I think was born in Mexico she came over here A bunch of her other Mexican friends that ended up uh getting into relationships are marrying Americans within two years all of them have got sibo and hpy Lori overgrowth small intestinal bacterial overgrowth uh and I look at this laundry list of got disbiosis stuff that I've had to deal with this year that I'm still dealing with with candida with roundworm with liver fluke with [ __ ] H pylori with CBO with all of this other stuff which then turns into chronic inflammation then you've like okay well maybe EBV is going to be kicked off and then what about the environmental tox so on and so forth and this two years ago to me would have been one of those all right Chris you know I can see that you've gone fully American now that you're even using the talking points about the food and stuff I'm like look I'm a a really good case study because I was a petri dish that had never had digestive issues ever once in the UK not exactly I mean I'm a bro my turnover of calories is very high I eat at stupid times I eat too much I have lots of protein I do eat processed food because I've got a sweet tooth but even that I have the same diet right country to Country I just have a new country so I have new constituent parts to my diet so I understand that it might seem like I'm grilling you so far today but the reason that I'm doing that I think is to hopefully try and have real firm proof to people who would have been as skeptical as I was meanwhile the guy that would have been that person being super skeptical is sat here going I'm the last six months have just been a combination of mood brain fog and going to bed at 8m I mean as you're talking right it's just like how much more warning signs do we need to see like I I I have a bunch of friends um women who who joke they go to Europe for the summer and they're uh boob shrink um that's like a known thing like we have so much endoc disrupting chemicals in our food that like people experience Dynamics like that when they go to Europe in the United States kids are hitting puberty years earlier than Europe the puberty rate the average puberty age where a woman hits puberty in the United States has gone down years in the past generation you think that the cendrine disrupt is exposing big titties and early puberty there's wild sexual dysfunction and and and and hormone dysfunction happening to kids I mean look at what's happening to infertility like like and there's demonstrably just chemicals in our food and all you have to do is look you know at the at the testimony um vonie Hari she goes by food bab on Instagram and she has the most powerful Graphics I've I've ever seen which just make the point so politically well and so succinctly it just shows the foods and the ingredients between the US I've seen these the one Ked off that Kelloggs thing with Canada right yeah yeah so so they make Kelloggs makes the Canadian version of fruit Libs in the United States and they make they make the Canadian version and because these artificial dyes which have no reason to be in foods are petroleum based are highly linked to add and other neurological issues for kids demonstrably are basically phased out of every single other developed country and developing countries they they they they color them with watermelon they color them with carrot juice here yeah yeah here it's it's it's petroleum based so they make the different ingredients and then ship them across the border so so even getting you know before we even get to like you know Ultra processed food is a shorthand for this weaponization and and and I think we're not going to get there unless we really fundamentally not just look at like micro variables but say what are they doing differently in in Europe and Europe isn't perfect but like there's more respect for food can we talk about water yeah I mean you go to the ewg database um environmental working group and you can type in your exact address and see what's in our water I mean I would just ask everyone to think about how competent the government is on on you know various uh metrics and various services and then ask if you trust how they're making our water I mean it is an absolute um as an absolute disaster and I think um you know I think it's an urgent National parad our our company um trumed you know steers HSA dollars we write medical notes for uh medical interventions that are root cause that are that are science-backed um and we are writing thousands of prescriptions for water filters because if you look at you know what's fueling our cells fueling our body it's toxic food and toxic water and you know if we I want to actually tie this water point back to what you asked about a single mom or a lower income mom being able to afford healthy food that's not the free market at work the fact that it's hard for low income people not to poison themselves is a total just abdication and moral blind spot of public policy we spend $4.5 trillion on Healthcare there's nothing cheaper we could do for our budget in the United States than not poison our population right that's causing dramatic economic dislocations human capital is being decimated 33% of young adults are now pre-diabetic if somebody's diabetic by the time they're 30 they're going to die 15 years earlier than than a normal person we are causing Devastation to our human capital and budget the number one driver of problems I would argue in this country is that we're poisoning our population so there's nothing cheaper that we could possibly do and what our whole thrust is from a public policy standpoint is not look at as Casey was told as dietary interventions in food as these and water as these kind of Fringe issues like it's it's an urgent medical necessity with that $4.5 trillion we already spent on Health Care to get our water clean and to get toxins out of our food that would that would just cure everything it would be very disruptive though for the existing players in the system what uh contribut contribution do you think there is when you look at air when we're talking about environmental toxins uh you know I drive through Austin and I see all of these newb build properties and you guys for some reason decide to build your hous is made out of [ __ ] Timber and the Timber's exposed to water when it rains it's not covered over and then the water's wet and it's hot and it gets wet and hot and that means that it gets moldy and then you build a house around it and the skeleton of the house is imbued with mold and then the house gets cold and hot because of AC and because of heating uh and then air pollution there are lots of big heads to sort of chop off with regards to this how big is the head of the more sort of Airborne environmental toxins that that area of what we're discussing high level and drawing down to that I would not trade living today for any other time modern society is amazing but the large point we're trying to make I think the point of this conversation is that there's a toxic stew we are living in which is a result of our modern society and not being clear about the health benefits and how that's impacting our cells and I think we've really you know gotten away from nature when I think about all the environmental toxins in our air um I you know I think about how we've just disrespected crop cycles and have monocropping and how soil is you as I said 70% less nutrient dense so you know in our personal care products in our air I I think environmentalists have really done the world of disservice it's not about like the specific measurement of carbon capture like our environment is is being poisoned we're trying to out Haack nature with the materials we use to build with our farming practices with what we're putting in the air um it's becoming unsustainable um and um and I think you know what I would argue for um is realizing that and then looking at the $4.5 trillion doar we spend and seeing ameliorating some of these dropbacks of modern society as part of the healthcare budget um I you know it's not about it's not about overregulation or having a nanny state but it all gets to me of like we just need clinical from the top from the NIH from the FDA this is getting a little bit in the policy but this is how my brain works we just need to have scientific reports on why these things are happening like everything right now and I really I really mean everything like the NIH 90% of funding goes to researching pharmaceutical cures accepting all this poisoning of ourselves as a given like there's no there's no Government research happening to like these issues of our mold I mean mold that's still considered pseudoscience right about you know toxins and our building supplies about our personal care white blood cell count tries to disagree yeah yeah no and and and I I know people whose lives have been destroyed by by mold I mean these things are all pseudoscience because you know again is it evil people no but the NIH has been totally co-opted and we're not studying these things so to me you know we need to just know the truth and if I could Snap My Fingers uh on on one policy one of the first things I do is steer the NIH and steer all federal um research grants away from R&D for marginal cures accepting you basically throwing up our hands at the problem and really deep research on why we're getting sick because before we get into any any policies about you know uh Banning or altering how homes are made you know what's in our air if you have a report for this is what our enemies have have learned if you have a report saying you know sugar doesn't cause obesity or whatever it is that's the highest level of trust so we need to get conflicts out of that and then I think that's Upstream of all policy but there's it's it's obvious that we have to get back to you know this is the root cause um I put food I'd put the sedentary lifestyle of Americans High higher probably you know 70% of Americans aren't eligible to join the military because they're so sedentary you know but but right below that you know the the toxins in our air and water is is a big deal getting into that didn't some health body recently say that people were exercising too much I mean you can't make it up um you had a report um funded by uh the USDA recently in the University of Michigan saying that it was dangerous to farm in your backyard um you've had time magazines saying exercise is an example of white supremacy you you had a recent article in a major publication saying it's right-wing for uh for people to be attractive and uh and fit um you've had government guidance saying that it's danger yeah there was government guidance saying it's dangerous for elderly Americans to be exercising too much that it might hurt their heart when really that like as Peter AA and others say that one of the chief causes of of death is is is frailty of our muscles our muscles are a huge important organ for our hormones um and and and have to be preserved so we're getting bizar World advice but what do the when it comes to that so I understand there's incentives to sell food to people there's incentives for the disease to keep going this seems the especially the movement the exercise sedentary nature side this seems more Upstream this seems even more more more Upstream you know what I mean what's going on there who are the antagonists of exercise well okay so let's let's just get out of the conspiracy just go back to the framework and we always got to go back to the framework so what type of patient is profitable for the healthcare industry a profitable patient is ingesting environmental toxins is using poor hormon disrupting personal care products is eating Ultra processed food is in fear and not questioning the medical system and they sedentary like the most important you know one of the most you know powerful Dynamics you can have you know to ensure that you're going to live a more tortured life with more chronic diseases to be sedentary so you know as we talk about the book exercise to me is is kind of it's kind of annoying like like exercise the fact that we have to do it is is another result of our Modern Life like we didn't used to have gyms and used to be super thin like we have uh incentives for a super sedentary environment but the fact that this hasn't been called out that getting moving at least 180 minutes a week getting your heart rate up is existential to disease prevention and reversal um you know is a blind spot the medical system I mean I just go to the incentives it's like it's not a a you know evil body saying that you know we need to prevent Americans from exercising but at Stanford med school it's seen as a FR situation I I I've talked to people at Major insurers you know every insur now has this like exercise incentive it's all window dressing they're not actually paying out of insurance for gyms and I've talked to Insurance exactly to say yes it is bad for us if people exercise because they're going to get healthier so it's just like are they being evil no is are insurance companies incentivizing exercise no like like the Health Care system is not emphasizing this and then of course it's in a small lifestyle budget this is where you know Justin Meers and I uh and our company trumed this is like the entire point of our company is that is that it's just not clinically accurate like like like it's a free country people are going to make mistakes people aren't all going to do the right thing but if you have high cholesterol and the doctor across the table says you you have a 70% chance of getting heart disease and dying an average of eight years younger and you're not going to be able to walk your daughter down the aisle unless you exercise for 180 minutes a week with some strength training um and here's a letter of medical cessi recommending this that allows you to use insurance money to uh Propel that exercise regimen people will listen like there's this whole idea that people just shrug their shoulders and like don't want to exercise it's like if that was the emphasis from Harvard Med School from the NIH from the FDA if that was the clinical guidelines if that was what was repeated I look around people listen to doctors like most kids are vaxed on the schedule 72 shots people listen to the food paramid as I said our diet changed people listen to the Surgeon General smoking rates plummeted like like we listen to doctors so I I just think it's just clinically inaccurate that exercise is kind of seen as this Fringe thing um and the fact that it's it it is is is is an example of the incentives I partnered with function because I wanted a smarter more comprehensive way to understand what's happening inside of my body function has been an absolute GameChanger they run lab tests twice a year that monitor everything from your heart health your hormone levels your nutrient deficiency your thyroid function they even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one which is five times more data than you get at your typical annual physical the results are charted over your lifetime and explained in one simple dashboard all of which is backed by a team of expert Physicians so you can trust that the data is scientifically sound and unbiased who did we just hear Cali talk about be the person who changed his entire perspective on the whole world of healthcare Dr Mark Heyman who is the chief medical officer at function lab testing like this would usually cost thousands but with function it is only $500 they have a 300,000 person waight list however but every Monday they open a few spots for modern wisdom listeners and you can get your expert blood workor analysis and bypass that 300,000 person weight list by going to the link in the description below or going to function health /od wisdom that's function health.com slod wisdom talk to me about your thoughts on AIC so asmic is a case study of the problems and the these Dynamics at work so let me just give a quick like and let's just think about this as like kind of a societal like example an example of the largest societal issue so it ties a lot of what we talked about together so there is an epidemic I'm going to go to kids of childhood obesity so 12 year olds 50% are overweight or obese unprecedented every parent with a kid can tell you they walk in a classroom something wrong is happening that is not because of an OIC deficiency right that as we talked about is that obesity epidemic is one branch on the tree that's also leading to the Mental Health crisis among children 40% of high schoolers qualifies as having a mental health disorder you know the diabet IES the Cardiology issues all the issues that kids are seeing all at once this year in 2024 is the highest rate of heart disease diabetes obesity autoimmune conditions cancer kidney disease and almost every other chronic condition among kids this year and adults so so so the fact so that's the problem so let's just assess the problem okay so that we should be asking what's the solution for that problem the solution at some point in time needs to be that we need to reverse this metabolically destructive environment for adults and kids that we need to start attacking the toxins start attacking the food start being bold and clear-headed about that and not just contining drug the problem we need to view the data and the science and realize that there's never been a chronic disease pharmaceutical treatment in American history that's lowered rates of the chronic disease that it's trying to treat stens have led to more heart disease metformin has led to more diabetes SSR have led to more depression increased rates of cancer drugs have led to more cancer people can think about it in fact check in the comments I can you're not saying that that's causal you're saying that these I actually am saying it's causal because it's a moral hazard the fact that when a kid has high cholesterol they're told you're doing something you're taking action you're reversing this with the Staten the American Diabetes Association until 2018 when they were shamed on this advised that if you took diabetes medication you could eat whatever you want the the the the they said that the American Diabetes Association they still the American Diabetes Association still doesn't definitively link sugar consumption to diabetes so no I think it's very causal I think the fact that we have been lied to in the past 40 years and that it's not it's not like this is this is a small the stands right for the past 30 years it's not this is like something but you need to really rigorously work on your lifestyle habits it's like my uncle was on the stand oh I'm I'm going to eat my burger it's like it's literally sold as a tool and OIC sold as a tool OIC is not being paired with lifestyle interventions it's being paired as the magic cure you can get OIC right now in a couple clicks online this is this is a lie to say this is him has got their own version Etc ET so so so I think it's very causal and I think this this this road of seeing every one of those micro issues every one of those branches as a siloed condition and then you know drugging it with a very incremental pill has been a failure so OIC is the greatest example so far of this where it's if somebody's 300 pounds extremely diabetic talk talk to your doctor about that I'm concerned about the median child I'm concerned about what to do and the median adult I thought the median child was obese exactly I'm concerned about that median child not not the morbidly obese diabetic elderly PE person but the average child in this country is OIC the correct intervention for them because that's what's being argued and weeks ago I went to Congress I met with 40 members of Congress I sat across from the person who introduced a bill to cover OIC on Medicare that is $1,600 per American per month Medicare is for elderly Americans so 80% of Medicare patients are eligible for OIC this bill the second it signed will open up a Floodgate where any single person that's eligible 80% of people overweight orese on Medicare can get this on HS with one click and get it government funded okay the second a drug is approved for Medicare this is why Nova noro is arguing so well much for the bill it goes to Medicaid because why would somebody why would old people be entitled to a drug but not poor people this is a game so the bill puts it on medic care because these old people need their oympic and then it immediately goes to Medicaid and then on Medicaid they're pushing it on six-year-olds the American Academy Pediatrics as I mentioned that saying it's good for 12-year olds they're now doing research on six years old because if it's the drug works for adults why not for kids so given that Downstream from obesity and metabolic dysfunction there are lots of problems if OIC comes in and reduces those problems would that not be a net positive is not the correct societal intervention for obesity if just let's use common sense and we're getting divorced from our common sense I think with deal is a big debate if we start jabbing the majority of Americans with a lifetime injection that causes so much gut dysfunction our body tricks itself into not eating it's liquefied anorexia it's it's a liquid crash diet and those people are continuing to be sedentary and continuing to eat Ultra processed crap are we going to see reduced comorbidities and and improved health over the next 30 years that's an interesting question I guess it depends on how much weight contributes to most of the problems Downstream I mean you dig into the drug itself there's huge problems the drug causes so many side effects that 50% of people that have insurance for It Go off of it within six months really so it C the drug is gut dysfunction right our gut is connected to the rest of our body right you've seen this you've talked about this the drug tricks our gut into not want to eat it's like jamming gp1 which is which our body produces to to C satiety it's jamming like thousands and thousands times more than we're normally made to and it so so so so it's been approved for kids based on a 64- week study it's a lifetime injection you've got all these different comorbidities and side effects I've said this people can fact check me by my count o zipic actually is the most pronounced side effects of any Mass drug ever approved in American history more than 50% of people have to stop using it through due to vomiting due to intense um gastrointestinal issues uh there's a blackbox warning for thyroid cancer which I can tell you it's very hard to get a blackbox warning uh the FDA is totally co-opted by Pharma and that's a very very serious warning so if that's already on there there's a it's the the iceberg of other you're very you're very skeptical of these gp1s and what's going to come next to zeppe tide R retribute tide all of the other it's it's a free country I think they should be available but it is absolutely Criminal and makes no sense that the largest company and most valuable company in Europe is a Denmark company that's projecting 90% of their profits from the United States for a drug that is not the standard of care in Europe and through a Rigg system through a system they've riged the United States is 10 times less expensive in Europe so they have rigged our system and are now the most they passed lvmh they passed the fashion giant they are the most valuable company in Europe based on assuming $1,600 per month uh from Americans from the taxpayer to jab this shot into the average American's arm when I can't go to a playground without seeing soda bottles and Ultra processed food that's subsidized by the government to get people fat in the first place this is dark so the reason that I was particularly interested to find out your thoughts when it comes to AIC is that you know this the if the dream world that you have which is also the one that I want for America and for you know the family that I hope to raise here return to Whole Foods removal of all of the 10,000 down to an acceptable number of things that can preservatives that can be in in foods and stuff like that there is going to be a very messy middle and between incentives conceptual inertia uh understanding availability what's in your local Target what's in your local Walmart what's all of this stuff it is going to take time to reverse this behemoth uh my total broscience theory was well maybe AIC is an artificial solution to an artificial problem but that if it it offers an opportunity to uh have a metabolic Intervention when it comes to the amount of calories that are being consumed and given that being obese and overweight is such a huge problem I wondered whether it would be an interesting stop gap between now while uh the CES and cases of the world can get in try to change the more systemic stuff and then we come out the other side and it's less needed I I hate to do this again but I got to dispute the permise of the question um about this taking a long time so let's just look at why I am so passion about this OIC thing it's $1,600 per person per month what could you do with $1600 what if you had $1600 for obese American and just because the American isn't paying for it out of their pocket it's the insurance doesn't mean that the money isn't coming from somewhere of course this is on track to cost the US taxpayer with one stroke of a pen trillions of dollars wow so when are we going to that's the problem I don't care if compounding pharmacy you know people you know I think the price of it is an absolute Scandal and needs to be attacked it's not the free market that we pay 10 what the production price of it is how much it costs to make $3 yeah it it it no it's true and then and then it's like well you're going to you're going to you're going to harm Farm Innovation it's like we can we can we can deal with less Farm Innovation on chronic disease management I don't I don't see but let's let's get out of any price controls the US it's not IDE ideological this is not a Parson issue the US is the largest buyer of drugs in the world can have an opinion on not paying 10 times more than Germany if I were to put one policy down on the price it's you can charge whatever you want but we're not paying more than the Germans or the Scandinavians cuz right now we're paying 10 times more for this drug they are laughing at us in Norway they are sitting there drinking their lattes riding their bikes and laughing at us right now okay so so so so I do I do want everyone to to to to maybe have some optimism and I think what you're saying very cataclysmic conversation no this is optimistic this is optimistic because I think what you're saying optim knowledge is power and is this is important you you're saying I think you're absolutely putting what everyone says is that this takes a while but $1,600 per person you can change you've probably seen this right you can change your biomarkers very quickly if you go on the elimin an elimination diet or have curiosity with your food what if every single obese child right that that doctor talked about our food system and talked and to that child about how if they start pursuing a life of curiosity about their food and putting Whole Food in their body and the miracle and spiritual power of food to heal ourselves and putting live food in our bodies and Whole Foods and that with 1/4 of that $600 with a couple hundred extra dollars a month we're going to help that Mom afford whole food for her family so I don't disagree but the problem there is you can't snap your fingers and get doctors that have been indoctrinated for so long the conceptual inertia the momentum that they're having in One Direction are you going to be able to change the incentives what the doctors expect to do when they get into a conversation what they've been trained to do what they've been told to do what Their colleagues do the peers etc etc it's an existential issue Chris I mean we are I don't disagree we're going to have like Mass like societal collapse with what's happened to our health within the next couple years I think I I think we're going to have mass food crises with what tapping to our soil I we going I think we're going to have destabilizing we we we are becoming infertile as a species like like like infertility is going up 1% a year we are becoming a non-competitive we're going to go bankrupt we're we are going to have 40% of our GDP managing chronic disease in the next 10 to 15 years so that's we're going to have like societal collapse in other news this episode is brought to you by plunge there's no such thing as being in a bad mood there are just insufficient rounds in the sauna and the cold plunge I am a massive fan of hot and cold therapy it is literally like hitting the reset on your body you've got more energy better sleep and faster recovery you might be thinking you don't have the space at home to make this work plunge just rolled out it's evolved collection which has four new offerings made to fit different Lifestyles spaces and goals the entire collection is designed to be customized you can pick your plunge style add the chiller or shop each one separately so no matter where you are going to put it there is a plunge that can fit your space plus they offer a 30-day return policy so you can buy it and get cold in it for 29 days and if you don't like it it for any reason they will give you your money back right now you can get $150 off the best cold plunges on the planet by going to the link in the description below or heading to plunge. comom wisdom and using the code mw150 a checkout that's plunge. comom wisdom and mw150 a checkout you mentioned the fertility thing earlier on uh birth rate decline has been something I've been super focused on for a very long time this is the bit that I need you to explain to me which is why why would any business which intends on continuing to achieve profits right reduce the size of its Market well I mean you just have to look at the in of the healthcare industry which is it's the infertility crisis is a byproduct of what's happening to overall health it's another branch of the tree let me they know that if they in one generation two generations three generations time that the number of people that they're dealing with is that's the optimistic part of the story we will either cease to exist as a species the American experiment will fall because we let ourselves get fatter sicker more depressed more infertile at an increasing rate while bankr the country or we'll change this the system right now is unsustainable and it's short-term focused right the problem is we have totally lost sight of our cycles of Nature and our own bodies and we've put short-term profit in in ahead of the long term like industrial agriculture is may be good in the short term but it's destroying our soil and how we're pillaring our bodies with pharmaceutical interventions is good in the short term but it's leading us to become infertile let's just go into infertility specifically and I cannot stress this enough to any woman watching I most women I know of trial bearing age are dealing with PCOS which is polycystic ovarian syndrome which is the leading cause of infertility um I've never met a woman who's gone to a traditional OBGYN who's been diagnosed with PCOS who has not immediately gotten a prescription for hormone pills to Ram down her throat and on the road to IVF just as an economic fact IVF is a super profitable invention right is an invasive procedure that costs a lot of money and it's like a pretty an elastic demand curve because people want to have a baby so it's a great thing no OBGYNs talk about why people are getting PCOS and PCOS as my sister eloquently talks about and talk about with much more knowledge than me is on the spectrum of insulin resistance it's basically a warning sign that our body uh that we're having metabolic dysfunction in our body that's criminal for two reasons that that's not mentioned one is that in Denmark uh IVF should be legal of course and should be encouraged if needed but it's three steps in Europe first they educate the woman about the metabolic ties to the PCOS and do a government subsidized keto diet which is the most effective intervention ever studied to reverse the symptoms of PCOS and increase fertility yep leading on the road the second problem is that it's actually a warning sign of underlying metabolic dysfunction in the Mom it's maybe one of her first times I go back to my mom you know which is really our inspiration who died recently of pancreatic cancer we were so indignant about that because the doctors at Stanford said it was unlucky when she had 40 Years of symptoms one of her very first symptoms was Sensational diabetes with me and then I was born at 12 pounds which she got high fives for but a large baby's actually a sign that there's metabolic dysfunction in the mother so with these fertility issues it's often the woman's first sign that they've got some branches on that tree growing and instead of jamming hormone pills and invasive surgeries it can actually be an opportunity to start that woman on a path of realizing that unless she understands what's happening with her cells not producing energy efficiently which is what PCOS is you know she's going to be having more issues along her an important Milestone point to begin an intervention it's a very Stark uh uh flag in the ground it's the wrong clinical thing to just get them straight into jamming hormone pills down their throat and it's also missing the warning sign which again is profitable one of my best friends and he actually talks about PCOS now and the causes and he's a great guy from Harvard Med school but but he did not learned at Harvard Med School uh and residency uh Mass General for uh for OBGYN um not once doc I'm not joking doctors OBG wns graduate from Harvard without understanding what pcus actually is they just know how to cut someone open and do IVF can we get into the sort of regulatory body yeah side of this who's being bought off how it works the sort of like uh commercial nepotism type thing that's going on yeah and I think this gets a little bit I hear you I mean there it's super entrenched but like gosh I might be new to this and too idealistic but seeing president Trump talk about these issues with RFK you never expected president Trump at a rally to be talking about regenerative farming and the poising of our food supply whatever you think of him the guy that said that there was only so many heartbeats that you have per per lifetime so things are changing quickly and and and here's here's why I'm optimistic so there's will be a radical change 100% but I do think most doctors are good people quite frankly as you said they're all getting in this for the right reasons there and what can we do to change this it's attacking the regulatory agency so let's just go down one by one of these agencies that have a profound impact on our health I'm just going to go through the FDA is 75% funded by Pharma and importantly for drugs it's not FDA bureaucrats often it's outside advisory panels who don't have conflicts of interest so when I was working for the pharmaceutical industry about 12 years ago the opioids were all the rage and we helped put together a panel at the NH of opioid guideline committee and we appointed the dean of har Stanford med school I mentioned Philip piso to that and he chose 18 others Philip piso was a pain specialist and he had received direct bribes direct bribes that I helped organize from opioid manufacturers he was the president of like the pain Council whatever the Industry Group where he got a honorarium and then he received millions of dollars of research grants and right before he was appointed opioid companies gave Stanford med school $4 million of research grants to revise their curriculum okay unbiased so he was just demonstr paid off and then 11 of the 19 members of the opioid committee at the NIH were um paid for by opioid makers and they released a report in 2011 saying that the addiction uh concerns were overblown and that pain is a crisis in this country and that it would be criminal not to attack pain with Vigor and the graphs of opio prescriptions went up and now we know about the opioid crisis and talk about that today the majority of opioid overdoses on fanol and things like that today came started that addiction from a legal prescription I just give that as an example that's what's happening with those zic that's what's happening with every other drug the FDA advisory committees are are are outside experts who are almost always conflicted there's no conflicts of interest and then the FDA itself as I keep mentioning funded by Pharma why is Pharma aggressively lobbying to fund the agency that it regulates because agencies in DC are built to grow and if they grow by the Pharma industry growing that dictates their incentives right and then of course you have the revolving door where the second somebody's the head of the FDA they immediately go to the board of fiser every single time so there's very simple things you can do to not have the FDA funded by Pharma to not have advisory Committees of people that are funded by the drug companies that they're approving to disaggregate Food and Drug FDA why why is the food regulatory body paid for by the drugs which profit from people getting sick from food no other European country has that the food regulatory body is separate these are executive orders we're making that you can do right away and then you talk about things changing if the FDA follows the science and has the correct standard of care guidelines you know that PCOS is tied to insulin resistance and food that potentially the first step that that diabetes might be tied to sugar and that dietary interventions might be right for diabetes again it's what we're doing with our company trumed it's like it can you explain what uh trat is for everyone because I think it's a really cool idea let me let me start a wider to every person watching when you are getting from your doctor a prescription for a chronic disease medication you know for all the conditions we're talking about you can ask them for a letter of medical incesty they can take out a pad and write about how food could help reverse PCOS about how exercise is a more effective treatment than an SSRI for depression clinically accurate information right it's not woo woo stuff it's like almost heart disease a dietary and exercise intervention for for uh high cholesterol much better than a drug they can write that in a note so my trumed our company is a issue advocacy organization whether you use trumed or not you everyone should know that and when you have that note right now you can do HSA FSA dollars so you can pay for your gym membership you can pay for your momentus you can pay for your element uh hydration you can pay for items that are clinically yeah eight sleep so so we so we proudly you know do a large portion of eight sleep sales right now eight sleep changed my life you want to put better sleep 20% better sleep up against these drugs when with sleep's impact on all these chronic conditions right these products we know many of these entrepreneurs I'm inspired by these entrepreneurs and they are Frontline medicine it's nothing short of a moral blind spot you know and I know you take good sponsors many of your sponsors are are we're working with they're on the front lines of Medicine why why is all the $4.5 trillion going to these uh pills so what we did with true Med is we read the law and despite pharma's best efforts the definition of medicine is not a synthetic pill made by fizer the definition of medicine is what a doctor deems appropriate for the Cure mitigation or uh prevention or reversal of a condition and we use clinical guidelines to you know use research use common sense and uh connect quickly through a tellah health the same one that hem use in the same process that these drug dispensaries use to assess third party and make uh a recommendation in a letter of medical necessity for root cause items based on the condition the patient has now I want to be really clear like we started this company because we think that is the biggest idea in medicine like like what if this is just hsas fsas which is 150 billion which is a sizable part um and every American every person watching should know that um you should max out your HSA if you're battling to prevent or reverse a chronic condition and you can qualify um to have your money go to supplements to AG sleep to pelaton to athletic greens to momentus to to what I believe are life-saving clinical interventions I'm making that statement not them um you're you're valid for that but that needs to be the 4.5 trillion the the the the policy solution that can change the world quickly is to get clinical guidelines right where we understand that heart disease is not a St deficiency which is what the guidelines are I'm not joking like like the guidelines and the standard of care when a American is on insurance or on a government program like a Medicaid it's it's it's to prescribe them a drug there's no discussion of sleep there's no incentives for sleep so if we have the right clinical guidelines which I think can be a one-year Sprint that RFK is talking about that's totally bipartisan to get corruption out of clinical guidelines and then open up more programs to flexibility you're not lecturing someone what to eat but you right on your journey you're totally outside the system now with all your gut health what what if you could actually you know use some of this $4.5 trillion do all this money you're paying on insurance what if that could actually go to more holistic and and blood testing and all the things you're like like that's a world that could exist and would be much cheaper you know the crazy thing is so uh only until recently did I didn't have a doctor uh while I was in the US for the first year and a half it's like people talk about my doctor I spoke to my doctor like what's that mean I don't have like a doctor in the UK I have a GP practice I drop in and whoever's available you go and see uh the way you know I brought I brought a British mentality to an American healthc care system and I also didn't have medical insurance I still don't so I've been going through this I had to buy uh Iva meon I'm fully Joe Rogan pilled at the moment but uh for three days up until yesterday I was taking an antiparasitic it was 3 50 $350 per tablet and I was like you know nobody is ever apparently you turned up at CVS and the lady made a face she says like who's the provider or whatever they ask and I went uh sort of held up my credit card and she just gave this face to me evidently this is very rare that somebody goes in and just pays cash um stupid enough to not have sorted healthcare insurance after two and a half years of being here I am on with it but um to see the price a single pill i' I mean I've paid a lot of money for pills in my life but uh 350 bucks is a a PB you wouldn't believe it so so it's just crazy when you get into the rabbit hole here so you take o zimic That's $1,600 and how I say the government's going to P $600 for it so they actually issue coupons to Americans so you you probably hear friends they're getting it for like $700 okay great that's the compounded version yeah yeah no no or just brand name so there is more more coupons they do this for a lot of drugs for people that are paying out of pocket that don't have insurance but they've made in the laws there's five lobbyists for every uh single member of Congress for Pharma the law is that Medicare Medicaid the biggest Spenders in the world on drugs the big US government programs can't use the coupon price so they actually put the they have to pay the full price so the US taxpayer by law has to pay the full price and then you could probably find more coupons where people paying out of pocket get a coupon but the the taxpayer is actually paying that $350 they totally rigged the system I mean it's beyond even comprehension how these systems are rigged you mentioned uh RFK you mentioned Trump you've been Sidelines and then Frontline I think you're one of the first words out of rfk's mouth when he said that he was joining uh backing Trump what have you learned since being behind the scenes in political parties that are on the come up about what's going on at the moment I I I'll be super Direct and this is what I'm seeing it is true desire to help kids um I my sister and I have been on this Mission really since our mom died really propelled this writing the book trying to put good energy out there um have got to know Democrats I've got to know the Trump campaign have got to know RFK through podcast through connecting with these folks trying to help all sides however we can I felt the Deep spiritual calling honestly watching president Trump with the first assassination attempt you know uh I think all of us felt something as American seeing that happen seeing a bullet hit a former president's you know body and I just I was with my wife I just like I felt the need to just call RFK and I'm like this might be a time for Unity you know you've built this incredible Community talking about these issues that we're talking about talking about how it could change fast you know potentially it's worth talking about unity and he ended up you know he's thinking about the same thing and I helped with Tucker Carlson connect them that night and and to answer your question just from my small Vantage Point kind of watching the conversations develop there wasn't one word of of the polling there wasn't one word of like you know the special interests it was like tears like they were like they were like tear filled conversations about why so many kids in the United States are obese and diabetic and discussion of this being a legacy item I I I've been meeting with anyone who will meet I I met with with Nancy Pelosi two weeks ago uh behind closed doors how'd that go these are human beings that care and do not want kids to be devastated in the United States I think a huge problem is the staffers slithering behind the members of Congress who are making the policy and working on getting a job at their next boss the pharmaceutical insurance industry so if I'm ever in a position of power I will only try to meet with the members themselves because at a human level of course nobody is behind closed doors really cognitively thinking I talked about meeting with the person who introduced the OIC Bill nice person nice person he has paid millions of dollars by the pharmaceutical industry they came into his office they asked him to introduce this bill this bill that has trillions of dollars of implications and I informed him that that bill is going to get to kids and he said no no no there's this isn't being pushed on kids I'm like well that's against the FDA uh this bill is going to be a lifetime drug and really cost us taxpayers a lot of money no no no no no it's not a lifetime drug it's a quick fix no you're going into the FDA it is literally says you should never go out the drug he literally didn't know and then I brought up the idea of what if that $1600 goes to food I'm not joking the thought hadn't occurred like like it wasn't like it wasn't like this evil forces it's like literally these ideas have not occurred to people so yeah I mean we'll see where the rubber hits the road but you talk about Fast Change you know everyone talks about President Trump you know eating unhealthy food all that stuff he has absolutely staked his political life on on taking out corruption this is the and what RFK I think has really articulated well is this is that what's happening to our health is the greatest example of these forces that are against the American people which Trump does stand for and I think a lot of these issues about distrusting pharmaceutical companies and being more holistic are issues of the left I I think truly There's an opportunity for bold B Parson action here cuz nobody wants what's happening what have you uh got from the Democrat side when it comes to these discussions have you been able to make much Headway though I think there's an opportunity for bold bip Parson action next year I think um I think um I I'll say this this issue requires strong executive leadership like like like members on the left and the right say we have to have air cover from the president talking about this this has to be a core issue like what farmer is able to do is like they slip these things in and without high level awareness um it it kind of just keeps getting corrupt for instance the the bill that lets the FDA be funded by Pharma just kind of slid under the rug a couple years ago but when Trump talks about that at a rally everyone cheers so what they're actually begging for is a President Who focuses on this issue and that then allows a member of Congress when the Pharma lobbyist is coming in to say wish I could wish I could wish I could do something for you but I'm going to get killed by the president this is going to be vetoed right now without top- down executive Focus the corruption's able to work so so I I hate I hate that Health Care is becoming political but I do think we're coming up on an existential moment in the next 40 days with this election and I think this is the most important issue these broken incentives of our healthcare industry and it requires strong executive leadership what happens if we don't fix this over the next 5 to 20 years 5 to 50 years I mean I think the data is clear we have on the current trajectory for our farming system 30 to 40 crop Cycles left and our soil is going to be dust um you know we're getting more diabetic fatter it honestly can't go much higher it's 80 80% as I mentioned overweight or obese 66% of adults have some form pre-diabetes or diabetes I mean we I think driving to a destabilizing societal event where these is going to eat up our budget bankrupt our country and form a non-competitive country like this is pronounced this is demonstrably worse in the United States I we always say we are shipping our diet around the world and it's getting worse around the world but like seven-year life expens you got between Japan that's growing while we spend four times more per capita on Healthcare than them like it's an unsustainable situation a so um I really worry about a food crisis with how much we're trying to hack our natural cycles of Agriculture and environment I worry about destabilizing events with infertility that's skyrocketing I worry about crises in America of competiveness with human capital um you know viewers can make their own decision but I think this Dynamic where our largest industry and fastest growing industry is profiting from being sick is a existential threat to the country and and and you know if I'm really to think from first principles on you know what will end the American experiment you know it's not going to be the wrong marginal tax rate it's not going to be like the wrong like like percentage of military spending it's not these fake social justice Dei issues that we're debating from the media um it's going to either be from nuclear Armageddon or uh or the fact that we're getting so sick and infertile and depressed um and I think we have to put those two issues Above All Else preventing nuclear war and our health what ways might you be wrong where is your case b well I think you've got people I really respect kind of in the entrepreneurial Community uh and VC Community like Elon Musk and like folks like that um Mark Andre who think we're on the dawn of a just radical Innovation on pharmaceutical Solutions um you know I just seen today on Twitter those folks are heralding new cancer vaccines and um and and Aid driven Therapeutics and personalized Therapeutics to you know ramp up life expy um that some of these drugs you know might even you know help Kickstart things like OIC you know this idea which is totally not supported by any data but like you know it's there's no data that people go on Crash diets and then that kickstarts better lifelong habits but there's arguments around that but but I think I I I think I think there is an argument that this dawn of tremendous Innovation that we're seeing can can kind of outrun the trends we're seeing to our to our metabolic Health um and that that that that we're in we're at a an age of tremendous personalized pharmaceutical Innovation that's going to extend longevity and out Haack chronic disease so that's kind of like the unknown knowns at the moment I guess it's interesting I I feel and this isn't meant as an insult uh there is a a degree of similarity between some of the more uh aggressive proponents behind the climate debate and some of the sort of talking point mostly that this is a a big problem it's happening now and we need to be we need to be uh uh important about it um the thing that's interesting I think that also maybe relates to the climate debate is there are maybe some interventions that can't be foreseen uh stuff that can be pumped into the atmosphere which is able to reflect light up at a very very high level uh that's able to reduce greenhouse gases ways that AI can step in and do these sorts of different things I I wonder whether you know we we are yet to see the promises and I'm similar to you kind of I guess hopeful but uncertain and skeptical about well what is this actually going to be able to achieve are we going to have complete not of degree difference of kind Technologies CU I haven't seen anything yet well I would actually my the analogy I would draw is that the climate alarmist are actually in the analogy liken to who I'm against they're liken to more the pharmaceutical industrial complex so like the the climate industrial complex to me is is the uh is like the pharmaceutical industrial complex I mean the same people arguing for both things like Bill Gates right now he just said today that we need government funded AI Bots to immediately any antivaccine information from the internet uh immediately because the second any critical information about vaccines or other pharmaceutical products that the science supports get out even a day that that creates brain viruses for people questioning things see literally just said this and um he's also saying that it's completely anti-science to suggest that trees help with carbon and we need to spray and block the sunlight so so so so so for clarity the only the only analogy or the only similarity that I saw between yourself and the people from the climate is big problem happening soon need to make a difference with it and there's maybe some technology that can fix it that was the beginning the end of you and spray things orange thank you and and I think the climate think really because because because i' thought about that's not my issue I you know I think the environment is is an existential issue I'd like to think the health issue that what I'm talking about resonates people on a personal level because I think we're all feeling either with ourselves with our kids with our parents who are getting sicker it's just like there's something just not right and I think what our K is doing what I'm trying to do my sister trying to do is really paint like the incentives so that it can be a path to empowerment and questioning and that's what this is really all about it's being on a Bottoms Up Mission to like take matters into our own hands on why we're getting chronic conditions like you're doing with your Elimination Diet and talking about your gut so um so yeah and I I think I think honestly like like we're thinking about the climate debate to me I think that's a big Power grab but I think like we're talking about what's happening to our environment is super super related to this health thing I mean the raping of our air and our water and our soil I'm a I'm a capitalist but I don't think this is a free market I think it's I think it's really we've been co-opted by short-term interest and corporate capture and I think we could actually come together with the environmental Community here um and frame a real bold health and environment agenda through a selfish lens of not damaging ourselves well I think you know the ultimately what much of the climate movement is trying to achieve is a world where humans can flourish in future balanced with the rest of nature that's plants and animals right now humans aren't flourishing that much there are interventions that can occur forget how we going to be your grandchildren's grandchildren's grandchildren it's going to be too hot and they're going to have to move away from Miami because the world is going to avisen it's like right now they're miserable and addicted to drugs and eating [ __ ] food and all fat and all on ssris and all dying too soon right now so yeah I it does surprise me it kind of shows I guess the myopia of of uh single issue obsessives right it's super I mean it's a core point of what everything we're trying to say is it's all interconnected and I think it's it's almost like to me this this what we're talking about is a world of abundance like like I have some conversations with um with the techie folks who are trying to get kind of out vaccine and in my opinion you know kind of out engineer this cascad and chronic disease crisis to me it's not about not having technology it's about where that technology should be going like to me Society technology and Innovation and AI needs to be going to realizing that we've gotten a little ahead of our skis here and kind of Forgotten our that like really awe of what's going on inside our body and natural cycles of the environment of like farming and natural cycles of our body you know giving all women hormon disrupting pills and thinking that's fine and telling them that's fine like we've kind of like out hacked cycles and um it's not about being a leite and not having any technology it's it's it's about having the humility to say we shouldn't we should realize the situation for what it is with we've gotten away from our natural cycles we shouldn't be necessarily investing in ways to out Haack that more but investing in technology to get back to basics so one example what I'd love to see and I think there's real opportunity is regenerative farming so so we talked about this a lot you you've talked about this right it's it's getting back to more natural farming practices so it's very clear that with regenitive farming you actually produce more uh crops per acre and it's much better for the environment the problem is that because everything's kind of in one big [ __ ] show and it's not lined up like industrial agriculture there's more labor so I think with like robotic technology and you know some investment in that you could actually lower the labor cost to where we could shift the to a regenerative system like if there was a focus on that um from private maybe even you know public sources we could transform right Farmland it takes a couple years to regenerative the only variable preventing that is the labor cost and that is a better system for Farmers for everyone so I don't blend of sort of new technology with existing balance for the environment yeah and I don't think it's necessarily just either top down policies needed I think like fundamentally like with with trumed with with my sister's company levels like I think the real defining like economic break for me when you're doing a Healthcare company is do you believe that the current system is unsustainable like the current system of like our monocropping of waiting for people to get sick and then drugging them it's not just morally problematic it actually has to stop because costs are increasing at an increasing rate while we're getting sicker so from a venture capital like my pitch to a lot of like VCS and thought leaders and health space is they still see HS you know putting a Millen Millennial pink packaging on drugs as Innovation better ux for medical records anything that's putting a better rapper on the existing broken system without addressing the incentives of the system is more of the same it's putting a better rapper over like a [ __ ] sandwich like we need to fundamentally ask with every single Health Care idea is this disrupting the current incentives or that's propping up the current incentives and to me that's not again it's not just like this like moral thing it's like if our system is unsustainable we have to be investing like 10 years down the road on technologies that get back to a situation that respects the environment more that respects our air our water our food more I think there's just no other mathematical Road in my head of of how we survive as a country in the next 10 15 years where we respect our farming practices more where we dem medicalize all these chronic conditions that are fun Mally not like medical issues so um that's what I would hope to see with the technology I mean if we we could have robots in the next five years that dramatically Chang the curve of labor for regenerative farming and and and work to shift everyone over those are policies I think like I to me it's unimpeachable on the corruption getting corruption out of the scientific guidelines which will lead to a lot of Downstream impacts and then opening up Healthcare flexibility you know if I'm like creating like a a staggered like prioritized plan of true policy change I think that's something that does require time does require deep conversations with Farmers um but but I think there's got to be a deep important conversation with the agriculture Community about how we unwind these broken incentives that are leading to ultra processed food um and get to a more regenerative future you haven't given exactly a glowing report of what most health information is when it comes to accuracy and then even when you're talking about evidence-based or scientific also incentives that you say uh don't even lead those to be representative of what it is that people should know given that a lot of people would think all right Cali that sounds great uh where do I go for my health information where do you go for your health information so my sister was being in doctorin at Stanford Medical School and uh and then a residency and someone gave her a book by Mark Hyman um who uh who's been you know for for for 20 years has been kind of unpacking these issues she read that book and read more books read book by books by Rob lustig by by a lot of people you have on the podcast other folks um started going you know agreed with some stuff disagree with other but it started radicalizing her and she gave me some of those books so as I as she left the system in 2017 I called her an idiot I said you know you're you're ruining your future what are you doing so she started giving me some of those books and then I started listening to podcasts and during Co you know I heard that Joe Rogan was Enemy Number One and that he was spreading dangerous misinformation and I turn on a random episode and he was talking about looking at the sun exercising getting healthy and I started listening to various medical experts and and yours I mean I'm not blowing smoke up your ass here or or um saying this because I'm here like what is happening with Independent Media um is one of the biggest Society shifting events in history like like like when you look at history it's often how we're getting information you know the Time Magazine said the printing press was was the most important historical moment in history like Ben Franklin publishing you know all the pamphlets and Federalist Papers like I think this shift this like hundred-year shift to where we don't have corporate controlled information sources is like really important and so I think podcasts are a massive massive part of this I think it's why there's such violence of criticizing what's happening I think it's why the Atlantic and other mainstream Publications just pill us for going to the Senate talking for voras about metabolic Health but to me when I I think it's such an interesting example of the of the free market because you have no curiosity about childhood diabetes obesity pharmaceutical corruption on the mainstream media but it's kind of all people are talking about on Independent and you know a small data point but like I I'm blown away like the book you know the book's selling really well outlive was by Peter Tia was the top selling book the last couple years it's like it's like people are desperate for this information I was just stopped on the street um from somebody seeing uh the podcast on Tucker Tucker Carlson you know said his interview with my sister was one of the most eye-opening things he's done in 33 years and and is now evangelizing this idea of metabolic health I think once you get the brainworm in you it's like kind of hard to unsee and it's actually where you talk about things like changing quickly it's like this is where Americans are going like like like like you are getting so many more eyeballs than CNN right now it's just like and you're talking and unpacking these issues it's not you know with people that disagree but people that are at least trying to get to the truth of why getting so sick and clear information so so yeah reading books and listening to podcast absolutely changed my life want books have you read which were both accessible and uh impactful when it came to sort of giving you an overview of this stuff yeah you came into this as a non exp the genetics that could create a doctor but not the background of one 100% I mean I think my backround is insane the corruption early my career working for these industries and then really learning from my sister so I was super impacted by food fix by Mark Heyman which I think goes into the systemic issues which we talk about a lot in the book um hacking of the American Mind by Robert lustig and metabolical by Robert lustig again you can agree disagree with a lot of the finer points but I think it gives a very good overview of the metabolic Health being the center um of our uh the center of Health um I've been influenced by Marty McCary he has a uh the price we pay um it's a great book uh it unpacks the system um Sarah gotf freed uh does really good work on hormones um I'm looking forward to Andy huberman's book I mean I I think the public intellectuals that are coming forward and talking on podcasts um I don't agree with all of them as I said like you know um we kind of had a lot of them this Senate um you know um who else did we have um Chris Palmer Brain energy I don't know if you've had him on he's a Harvard Psych atrist um who has done groundbreaking research over the past 20 years on a radical concept of food and our environmental toxins impacting our mental health and it's been able to reverse um bipolar disorder and other psychiatric disorders through metabolic insights um and yeah we we we we cite so many of those books so many those people but you know Casey and I and what's been really gratifying is like and this was our target audience you know when you you write a book it's like who's your target audience it's it's somebody that's already kind of listening to your podcast and on the train and maybe maybe can't quite get to their parents or can't quite get to their friends and what we did as we were awakened on this we realized we couldn't like Badger and shame my dad into eating healthier food but we could talk to him about ideas we could share podcast Clips we could give him books and he's radically changed um his his his his his world and his his diet and his health and that that's what I love hearing about this book is people are buying you know more copies and giving it to to friends who they want to impact and um you know you guys sat at number one on Amazon for or and I think were then knocked off by Dr Seuss of one doctor by another doctor unfortunately uh dude I I think it's it's it's very accessible which I think is important I you know I'm so um grateful for the guys that go into the weeds thear of the world the humans of the world the evidence-based well out live is a great book of course but especially if you're going to be the thin end of the wedge to get people into a discussion about broader Health tell me some stories make it accessible not that Peters or Andrews or whatever wasn't or isn't going to be but that needs to be the priority I think that so much of the communication is I I don't I I feel like I'm kind of watching season N9 of Game of Thrones and I didn't see any of the stuff getting up to here and I this doesn't really I can't I can't connect with it well that's what we're trying to do I mean we stand on the just just the shoulders of just so many of the public intellectuals I think it's so brave what Dr H has done and and AA just getting out there and and sharing this content they've changed millions of lives and yeah what casy are trying to do is is put the stories and really make the point that the people have more agency and power and it's really more simple than led to believe I think I think you know I've been so impacted by by so many people that come on your podcast but I think sometimes we get into like too much nuance and debate on like you know what the correct diet is or what the correct exercise regimen is it zone two is it strength training like there's not an epidemic of unhealth people that are eating mostly Whole Foods there's not an epidemic of unhealthy people that are doing 180 minutes of exercise a week whether that's you know zone two or hit or like like I think what we have to incentivize from public policy and clinical guidelines is just the simple Basics like we're getting two hours it speaks to the level the relative dysfunction of most people compared with everybody listening to this podcast everybody in podcasti estan and substan they they want to talk about their zone two versus their their hit and the and the rep range from 12 to 16 or from 20 to 24 and how many reps in reserve they want to talk about that because that's the level that they're working at and they're looking to make that Improvement again going back to the accessibility conversation the people who haven't got off the couch for and and are still smoking and still you know I think I looked at this really crazy stat about alcohol consumption uh which is like super interesting it was looking at let me see if I can pull this up for you here uh not there there it is the top 10% of alcohol drinkers in the US consume 74 drinks per week 30% of American adults don't drink at all another 30% consume on average less than one drink per week the top 10% of adults 24 million of them consume an average of 74 drinks per week or a little more than 10 drinks per day the entire alcohol industry is propped up by drink power users yep wow I mean it's interesting I'm unpacking this idea on alcohol a little bit like I think it's actually a model of of where we need to get to with with food it's like like we should have societally destabilizing things in like I we shouldn't be banning everything like like I think in a weird way like we do with alcohol which causes deaths which causes Devastation you know which which which causes broken F I mean it causes a lot of harm like we should allow these things in individual choice in society but I think the problem with the food industry is it's gotten just just too far along with really really demonstrably toxic and addicted chemicals in the things that we can market and give to kids and it's just like it's not about banning Coke and banning these ingredients but it's just like the fact that we've been able to get them into our normal food in a unique way in America it's just like is just and the fact that our our regulatory agents encourage them is really is really a problem well again man I'm the uh a good example I'm a good split test of the same person in two different countries and uh despite the fact that I train more sleep more have a day job instead of a night job and yeah I'm you know having to just eat meat and berries for a few months to okay let's do this Elimination Diet and let's go on this protocol and let's do all of this other stuff so yeah man CI means ladies and gentlemen where should people go they're going to keep up to date with all of the different things that you've got going on c means on the socials um we're working really hard advocating building up a community of folks to write members of Congress and talk about these issues um and I think we we got a big election coming up and no matter what happens we're building a tribe to to talk about these things and tred.com every single person should contribute to your HSA FSA and demand a letter of medical Sessy from your doctor for root cause items and true Med can help with that too heck yeah kie I appreciate you man thank you sir thank you very much for tuning in if you enjoyed that episode Dr Andrew hubman is waiting just here to tell you everything about health and fitness and being handsome come on