How AI is Changing Tech Marketing with Sam Allen, CEO of Iterable

For 20 plus years, marketers have talked about how you're going to treat their customers like they're the only customer, but the technology hasn't been there. And at the end of the day, it's just batch and blast. And now what AI does allow you to do is do that really hyperpersonalization so you can at scale treat people like they are the only customer because you have so much data and now you have an engine to activate that data. Hi everyone and welcome to the Marketing Vanguard podcast. I'm Jenny Rooney with AdWeek and I am thrilled today to be joined by Sam Allen. He's the CEO of Iterable. Sam, welcome. >> Thank you Jenny. It's great to be here. I really appreciate you having me on. >> Well, it's great to have you on and I I I would imagine congratulations is still in order considering that you're relatively new in seeds. So >> yeah, I don't know how long I get to wave the new guy flag, but yeah, it's been a full full financial quarter uh in plus a few days, but um I'll I'll take the laurels when I can get them. >> Exactly. Exactly. So um you know, you really stepped into the role um at Iterable during a period of such transformation in the marketing tech landscape. Um we're going to get into that in a minute, but I would love for you to share with everybody a little bit about your personal background and your career path that got you to this role. Yeah. So, I have a pretty uncommon career path. Um, you know, I guess a little bit about me. I'm I'm from the Midwest. I was born and raised in Kansas City in a in a very very bluecollar work environment or very family environment. And, uh, I was kind of working really early. My dad had me, you know, cutting wood and bailing hay at like seven years old. And so, that has kind of formed a baseline for just my style and my approach. Um, it's all to me about the work. um and you know understand the value of a hard day's work. Um when I was 18 I enlisted in the United States Marine Corps. Um I got into college but couldn't afford it and so I took that military route and long story short was able to then go to school while I was in the Marine Corps at the University of Missouri. Um and then graduated there and then became a full you know full uh time active duty officer in the Marines. It's funny you never know how to answer that when people say that. Um, but I appreciate I appreciate that. Um, so, uh, I thought I'd spend my entire career in the Marine Corps. It's kind of what I always wanted to do. Um, but in the late mid late 90s, uh, the world had obviously changed a lot from when I had first entered the military. And, um, there's a bit of push for me to leave and a bit of a pull for me to leave. The pole was this amazing, you know, dot boom up in Silicon Valley. And so, I left uh, left what I knew and what I loved in the Marines and and joined um, a technology company. And I didn't know anything about the technology space. I just knew that it was fast-paced. 1997. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Um and I had friends who had left the Marines and you know they're like you should really come up to San Francisco. It's an amazing place and man this technology thing is nuts and they just need a lot of bodies. And so um I jumped in with both feet thinking I would do it for a few years and then kind of remove you know returned to the Midwest and then here I am 30 almost 30 years later. Um but the the quick of it is I went to a large company um found that it was poorly led. So I went to a startup had an amazing experience just unbelievable gang buster stories a startup called Serant. We were acquired by Cisco um for a very large transaction and uh I spent five years at Cisco. Uh I did a variety of roles. I did M&A and then I did some operations roles. Got kind of bored. I went and got my MBA at Wharton. And while I was at Wharton, I, you know, got to be really close with a couple of my study group mates. So, we started our own company. So, it was my first CEO gig in the consumer media space. Did few rounds of venture financing. Um, ran that for 5 years and then took kind of six, nine months off. um and then went to Salesforce and built their first not their first but kind of built their enterprise level M&A practice and then spent 11 years at that company on an amazing ride with a into a variety of roles. Um I ran a couple of divisions. I ran I was the COO for their global marketing or so. So I own the marketing tech stack for Salesforce which is interesting because they have their own obviously marketing technology. And then about a year ago I really felt like I needed to make a change. I didn't feel like I was growing as much. I didn't feel challenged. You know, you spend 11 years at a company as a senior executive and you get the problems get pretty, this is going to sound trit, but they get pretty easy to solve. Um, I just didn't feel like I was growing as a person or as a leader. Um, and then from a personal perspective, while all that was going on, I got married, had a couple kids, uh, and my youngest son was heading off to college. And so as I was thinking about this new career progression for me, there was also the personal side. And I had spoken with some friends of mine who have gone through the empty nest phase. And they're like, you find yourself with all this extra capacity. And um I thought, wow, what a great dovetailing of both the professional and the personal. And so yeah, I just kind of went out and started looking around the market and um this opportunity of iterable came up and I I I I jumped on it. We can talk about that in a minute, but that's just kind of my rough uh my rough background. Through all of that, I'm a very um you know, the the I guess a phrase today is servant leadership, but I've always been that. I just deeply deeply believe that you've got to lead by example and lead from the front. And um I'm here to make people's jobs easier. That's that's what I do is uh in my role as an executive is is give people the tools they need they need to do their job and give them the prioritization and direction and just let them run free. And so that's just how I think about my approach as CEO. >> Uh well, first of all, I mean, what an incredible story. Um so much humility in what you just shared. Um and I appreciate that tremendously. You know, it couldn't have always been easy, right? So, um but your tenacity definitely must have been something that was a was a consistent thread throughout everything you just shared. Um and I appreciate that. And also I'm intrigued by your um the fact that you continued to push yourself and there was an element of curiosity that that also drove you know going out to San Francisco. I mean in the late 90s by the way was was just such a heady time you know and going the early 2000s um certainly out there but also in the world you know just obviously at that time um the internet was suddenly became an actual thing and you know digital com it wasn't even called digital but interactive commerce and interactive marketing um and you know actually became things uh you know and shortly thereafter there was you the rise of the dotcoms and and everything that went with that. I mean, it was just such a heady time, the rest of the internet economy. In fact, there were publications that were birthed that were solely and exclusively I worked at one of them solely and exclusively focused on the internet economy was a whole new thing. So, I love that you went there, you know, you went west to kind of latch on to what was happening. And then the fact that you went back to Wharton to get an MBA in the midst of that, you know, to to advance and further refine your your skills and your leadership um is just very obviously very impressive. So, very compelling story. Um but yes now through that framework or through that lens I would love to understand what drove you to Iterable and what was sort so enticing to you given your background given given your desire to continue to push yourself and also to kind of you know chase what's next and see where where innovation was happening tell me about that decision. Yeah. So, well, first, you know, on the tenacious thing, I just there's a saying that I loved and I don't remember where I heard it. I didn't come up with it, but I it seems like to me it's been around my entire career and it's, you know, define the moment. Don't let the moment define you. And I think too many people wait or try and wait for the perfect answer or, you know, they overanalyze and um and then maybe this is a lot of the Marine Corps and me, but I just I just jump through walls, right? And if I see opportunities, I kind of jump on them. And so that's connecting that to iterable. This was the first career move I've made where I was really really a lot of diligence. Um because this had to be nothing is ever risk-f free especially when you come to a you know a company in our in our sector. Um but I wanted to derisk it as much as possible. And so in my career I've usually looked at an opportunity literally for 24 or 48 hours and I jump on it. This was several months of of of kind of thinking and and um diligence. a lot of interviews. Uh me interviewing them, interviewing me. I talked to a lot of CMOs I know who used the product. So I did a lot of backdoor kind of reference checking. Um so I I did a lot I did a lot of work to make sure this was the right right move because there were lots of opportunities. I mean I I someone with my background and I try not to talk about myself too much but obviously I get a lot of inbound interest and so a lot of things I would turn down out of hat but this one was really interesting. And so to more pointly to answer your question, there were several things that went into this. Some directly related to iterable, some not. When I look at my total career arc, I've done a lot. I've done a lot in startups. I've done a lot in big companies. You know, I've accomplished quite a few great things. But there are there are there's one thing I haven't done. And the one thing I haven't done is as a CEO take a company through, you know, the uh through the exit uh scenario. And so taking a company public or taking it to a phenomenal acquisition is something I just deeply believe I want to do. And this I think gave me the best opportunity to do that. Um and the why iterable is, you know, this is a marketing technology is a crowded space. There's like what 15,000 RTK vendors out there and you've got huge BMS like Salesforce and Adobe um and a lot of phenomenal startups. So it's a highly competitive environment. But I I itch for competition. I I like that. Like I like being out on the front lines, so to speak. And so >> you could spend time at Salesforce, too. So you you know you know what's out there. I mean, >> yeah. I so I owned a marketing I own $100 million marketing budget at Salesforce or for technology. I owned the total budget was almost a billion. Um and I I so I've been on the buy side. I really understand the enterprise sales cycle. Um I spoke to a lot of customers in my 11 years at Salesforce. So, you know, all the way up to CIOS and and and you know, CFOs of Fortune50 companies. And so, I understand what they're thinking through. Um, and I just know that it it doesn't matter what you sell, whether it's a potato chip or a microchip, you want to be close to your customers and you want to engage with them and you want brand loyalty. You want them to come back. That's never going to change. And so, marketing technology, although it's a crowded field, is a very, very compelling one. And then when you map in artificial intelligence and what AI can actually do to drive changes in the space at the speed at which they can drive the change, I just found that just massively compelling. And so um that's kind of some of the broad strokes. The more specific strokes, I did not want to go to an early stage startup. I just I've done that before honestly with my experience and my background. I didn't think I was the right fit for that. Um, you know, I I wanted to go to a company that already had breadth and position in the market and was really looking for that breakout um to the billion-dollar plus um line. And that's a smaller subset of companies, but ones that match my background very well. And then the third piece was just being very honest with myself. I'm not the person you hire to go quotequote fix a company with product problems. Um, and I would see those opportunities come in. I'm like, look, I'm not the guy for that. I I've been in technology for almost 30 years. I consider myself a technologist, but if you want to turn around a product company, I'm not the best fit for that. Um, but I'm incredibly strong oper operative leader, operational leader, and I know the enterprise space really well. And so where itable had amazing opportunity for me was that it did have phenomenal it does have phenomenal product and it was kind of banging its head against the ceiling a little bit on how do we actually go drive even more growth as a $200 million plus company. That to me was a phenomenal fit for my background. And so after I did all the diligence and looked at everything um I thought about those matches you know surfaces to gaps and it just it just it just felt really really right for me. And so yeah, I took the jump and it's, you know, 90 days in, it's been uh been uh been great. >> So what I love in what you said was, you know, and frankly this applies to all CMOs as well, any business leader, but know very clearly what you can't do. You know, I think we spend a lot of time thinking about how do you package yourself as, you know, what's your profile? What's your, you know, um what do you want to be known for? But um having that sort of awareness and that clarity, um is only part of the two sides. The other is knowing what you you really can't do and that that you're not built for. And so I love that you shared that as well. I think there's learnings for all business leaders in that for sure. >> Yeah. Well, that's also why we have teams, right? Like I I just I believe in building high functioning teams. And I always want to hire people that are smarter than I am and work harder than I do. And that's not an indictment on my work ethic or my intelligence because I think both are strong. But I just I just believe that. Um, and so find the people that are really great at what they do and bring them on board. I've had the luck in my first 90 days to be able to hire a new chief product officer, uh, as well as a new CMO. And so, uh, that was a great great boon for me to bring those two folks in. >> So, describe for me what I does as if I were my 17-year-old junior and high school daughter. >> Yeah. Well, I've had to explain this to my 18-year-old, so I I I can get it. So, I mean, there's multiple different terms for what we do, but the the easiest one to explain is our we're a customer engagement platform. And so, I like I like to I like to explain this through use case. And so, I love coffee. And Pete's Coffee is uh a big customer of ours. And um Pet knows everything there is to know about me as a buyer. They know what time I come. They know what I like to order. They know what I don't like to order. Um they know my frequency. And so what iterable does is provide the the basically the platform for Pete's to not only understand the data side of the customer, but then leverage that data. And so if it's 12:30 and Pete's knows that at 1:00 every day, I kind of walk to the corner shop and get a quick cup of coffee, it knows I'm coming. And so it will maybe if they want to, they'll give me a dollar off coupon, you know, and they'll send me an inapp push that says, "Hey, it's about time for your afternoon break, you know, and by the way, we know you love maple nut scones, and so here's a hot maple nut scone for being a great customer." What they don't offer me is a lemon tart because I don't like those, right? Um, and they don't offer me tea. They they know enough about me in my buying cycle. So we we provide all of that capability on the back end and whether it's an inapp push or text message or an email which also is very personalized, right? Because some people love text, some people love emails. Um we provide that entire platform and we're a we're a native AI company. we we we we're building AI capabilities within the archite architecture of our platform and that's just accelerating all this opportunity to do um kind of what we call micro cohorting. So the ability to look at a bunch of people as individuals and for me as a user it just drives more brand engagement because I feel like whether it's pets or REI or Volvo um they they seem to know me really well and I just become more attached to the brand. I become a fan of the brand. I recommend it to friends and everything and um all that's done on the on the on the back of the iterable platform. >> So you described uh pizza is obviously a B TOC um marketer and then you're doing this for B2B marketers as well. >> We are. I mean we're primarily focused on you know what we call B2B to C um because if you think about it you really want to be in a space where you're driving millions upon millions of these connection points. And so, uh, there's great opportunity in the B2B sector. We're kind of primarily focused on B2B TOC right now. We do have some B2B, um, success stories, but really where we see our real value, especially with AI, is in the ability for a a brand or a company to really look at their millions of users and treat each one of those users as if they're the only customer that they have. And so, the breadth and scale of your user base is where you get the real power of Iterable. Um it's so so interesting. Um I you know I just I just feel like that is you know for a long time in this industry there's this been this concept of market to to the one right it and and it's I think there have been various over the years and by years I mean probably like the last 20 years there have been various iterations of what that actually means or can mean and obviously with the aid of AI we're in a place now where it truly can feel as if you know a brand marketer is marketing to a customer of one. >> So, I I just think that's so so interesting and I can only imagine that a lot of your brand marketer clients um find that so intriguing. But let's then now move to what are you hearing from the CMO community in terms of, you know, in this area, what really are their pain points? What are they seeking to solve for? And as they continue to, you know, refine and level up their businesses and their brands, quite frankly, you know, what is the the thing that's missing for them? >> Well, I think so, first of all, yes, for 20 plus years, marketers have talked about how, you know, you're going to treat their customers like like they're the only customer, but the technology hasn't been there. And at the end of the day, it's just batch and blast. And now what AI does allow you to do is do that really um hyperpersonalization so you can at scale treat people like they are the only customer because you have so much data and now you have an engine to activate that data. And what AI also allows you to do is um uh do that at super hypers scale. And so you can do AB variant testing what we used to call you know in microsconds um based on a data set that used to have to take you months to go conduct. And so we actually have the ability to meet the the what we used to be market and we can now treat each customer like our only customer. Here's where I think CMOs and my conversations with them as well as Gartner analysts and um Forester analysts and kind of everybody I've been talking to for the last 90 to 180 days, there's no one out there basically dictating where this where the puck is going in two years. And that's really hard to do with AI. Um because this has exploded onto the market. It has really changed a lot in what we're doing. It's provided amazing opportunity. It's also pro provided a lot of fear and let's just call it what it is. And um in the marketing space, you have people who are worried a job's going to go away. And so you've got all these different pressures. And then if you're a CMO, you've got a boss or a board telling you, "Hey, you need to drive a lot more performance and I need to see you impact revenue more, but we're going to cut your budget 20%." because just go use chat GPT to figure it out, right? And that's an easy trit thing for a board member or a CEO to say, but where's the actual where's the evidence? Where's the proof? And what we're finding as an industry, and you can go look at different reports, and you've seen probably seen some of this um written up in things like the Wall Street Journal, there are starting to become real questions about the return on investment on AI adoption. And um so CMOS are asking, look, I have all this pressure to do this. Um I'm getting my budget cut, but I don't know h help me figure out where I need to deploy technology and how that's going to help me solve these kind of macro problems. And what I'm one of the things I'm shifting the focus of inside of Iterable is we've had a phenomenal run you know 1,200 global customers like I said over well over $200 million in AR and that's growing in double digits and we're performing very well but we've been like a lot of companies of our size we've been very transactional and one amazing thing I learned from Mark Ben off at Salesforce was you need to be a strategic adviser to your customer and so I'm hearing all this noise in the market about confusion and not sure what to do and afraid to make a decision. Um, and I have this opportunity to be that strategic adviser to the CMO. And so where we're shifting the shifting the focus for us at iterable is to become that strategic adviser. So what we have to do is go craft what that story looks like. And so that's that's really important for us. So with CMOs, there's there's a lot of focus on on um on us providing a story for them that will uh help them in that that macro challenge. >> Absolutely. So I that's a great segue to my next question and I've been thinking a lot more about this um as everybody has and there's been so much talk about just you know is the CMO title the right title wither the CMO do companies even need this role anymore however now more than ever with the advent of AI in a in and large language models it does feel like this is a technology and you've lived through all the various technologies that have completely changed the game for this industry but This does feel different and you know if a CMO did want to pivot to a different role in an organization what because assuming like a lot of marketing is going to finally get automated in ways that it never had been before. What then does become the fate of the CMO and is there a an intentional way that you think they should start to pivot? >> Yeah. Well, I so it's that's a very interesting question and I hadn't really thought of that before, but here's my re here's my kind of gut reaction. My first gut reaction is don't move don't move because of fear. You know, I I me I mentioned earlier like don't let the moment define you define the moment. I think actually there's opportunity for CMOs to take a bigger seat at the table. Like so my point about helping like iterable's mission should now help CMOs understand the space so that they can become a bigger seat at the table. They become they have a bigger seat at the table because they're directly impacting revenue. Um and they're driving revenue growth and they're driving that revenue growth in an efficient manner. They're not asking for more dollars. And you know for going back the advent of the role be like oh you want to grow revenue 20% I need my marketing budget to grow 20%. That's no longer the case. And so, how do we actually arm CMOs with the story that they say, "Look, I'm going to drive 20% revenue growth or 30% pipeline growth for you. I'm going to mature a pipe at a much faster rate. We're going to close deals faster. The deals are going to be bigger all through the efforts that are going to come out of marketing. And here's how we're going to do that. And I can do all that with a lower budget. We've got to arm the CMOs to do that." I think the marketing function like every other function engineers um product development people everybody is looking you know looking at themselves in the mirror and saying what is the efficacy of my job um with the advent of AI and what I've been pushing my organization as we're going through our next year planning right now is where are you driving the practitioner and so we all need to become practitioners of AI and the capabilities those tools provide. Um, I think marketers are the same. And so, how do you leverage those to become expert in your field? I think we will continue to see, this is just me going on a limb, but you're going to see erosion of of knowledge work because that's where AI really has the impact. This is what's so interesting about you, you are right. I, you know, I was in the do-com boom and then I was in the telecom boom and then wave division multiplex and then, you know, e-commerce all of that thing. almost all of those technologies displaced kind of brickandmortar, you know, hourly work, labor, more efficient labor. This is all about knowledge work. And so if you're a college graduate with 10 years of experience, you're like, "Holy crap, my career just evaporated in front of my eyes, but meanwhile, there's 60,000 unfilled welding jobs in the United States." And so there's this weird kind of dynamic happening. And so I think people need to look themselves in the mirror and say where is the where is the my career going? So the the opportunity to reskill and become expert in in these AI technologies is important because that's where the roles are going to go. I just and maybe I'm maybe I'm being a little too sanguin about this. I don't I don't believe in a world where a 50 person company runs a multi-billion dollar enterprise. I just I just don't believe it. Um I think we are always going to have to need people. Um, and those people are going to have to have context. And where I've seen I did a I did a keynote at an AI marketing summit in San Francisco uh two weeks ago and the premise was selling into the enterprise and um I was telling folks, look, you know, the the purchasing department at a large enterprise probably has more people than your startup does. Um and so those companies will continue to to be become more efficient. But um I just I just don't believe in a world where all people go away. And you need tenure in context to understand what the AI is telling you. And so I think this is where I lost my train of thought earlier. If you just turn over your your marketing, your brand to an AI agent, you're going to be end up in a lot of trouble. Um even if you do it within the confines of your own existing data set because it lacks context. And so where I think you can provide capabilities as CMO is to say look our AI tooling is telling us to do these things. Three of these things match my 25 years of context and I think that's important. So we should do those but two of these things do not. And so one thing that iterable does in our AI functions is we allow you to interrogate for lack of a better say it the data. So why did you come up with this decision? Why is this your recommendation? Where did you get that data set from? And then that gives you a level of confidence that you can then push the button to say, "Okay, go run that campaign." And um I think that's an important piece of this as well is that you've got to marry your context of all your experience to what AI is suggesting that you do. And I think that's a great marriage. >> Love that. I mean, I just I just feel like um I I I think you you have a very uh rational view of of the rise of AI and how it's going to change everything. And um I got a lot of scar tissue from 30 years at Silicon Valley. Maybe that's what it is. But >> and tell Yeah, but tell me what you're coaching your you're telling your 18-year-old because that >> Well, my 21-year-old wants to be a writer and I'm like, man, did you pick an interesting time to But you know what? Knock yourself out, man. You never know. Um I think the world needs uh the world needs genius and it needs origination and um LLMs are not great at that. So, >> thank you very much. as a creative writing double major creative writing in English literature. It's very nice to hear that. So >> yeah. Yeah. >> Um so where are you last few quick questions where are you placing bets at Iterable you know. Um >> yeah so I'm doing a couple of things. Um you know the market's huge. Uh and iterable when I came here I think was trying to do trying to be all things to all people which means you're nothing to nobody. And so I provide a lot of focus. And so I did a I did a really deep analysis in my first 30 days. is on where do we where do we have a quotequote right to win? Where do we perform really well? Where do customers really connect with our product? Where do we have high margin? Where do we have low churn? And we looked at those segments of the market. You know, we break basically break the market into about 11 different verticals. And so there are several of those vertical and we sell into all of them, but there are several of them that we perform incredibly well. And those are huge markets. And so let's be more focused on those. We're not going to abandon the other nine, seven, eight or nine markets. we're going to really focus kind of our energy, our branding, and then our product development to really go perform incredibly well in those markets. And from a segmentation perspective, it's really mid-market and enterprise. Um, there's great opportunity in the small, medium business sector. Um, but it's a it's a it's a hard that's a hard world to be in. Um, and honestly, most of the revenue comes from mid-market and above. And so, so I'm thinking from a from a verticalization perspective, it's a few verticals. From a segmentation perspective, it's mid-market and above. And then from a geographic perspective, continue to focus on North America. We have operations in Europe and we have a small foothold in Asia Pacific. Thinking very intelligently about how you expand those without using organic assets. And so, as an example, can we go find great, you know, mid-tier system integrators and partners that we can leverage in Scandinavia? So instead of me putting 30 sales reps in Scandinavia, I'd rather leverage a partner to do that. And so just being smart about you don't just it's not cookie cutter, right? You don't just deploy the same model everywhere. And so just being much much more focused. So that's what I'm driving here just a lot more focused on where we have the right to win and let's go across those areas and then as we grow and do well, we'll continue to expand. But this full frontal and everything just doesn't work for a company of our size. >> Yeah, totally. No, I I so much learning in that. um as well. Um my last quick question for you is and I ask this of all my guests and typically I ask them um you know who's one CMO that you admire from afar that I should have on the podcast next and it could be somebody that you know really well or you've never met them but I'm going to ask you who is a CEO or CMO um that you admire because of the work they're putting out in the world and I shouldn't by show. So, from a CMO perspective, this is going to sound a little trit, but Stephanie Buchmi is actually on my board. Um, she's the CMO of uh Confluent. She was my boss at one point at Salesforce. And what I love about Stephanie is she's an absolutely phenomenal marketer, but she's also a phenomenal leader. Not that all CMOs aren't, but and she's incredibly operational. So she's got this great mix of vision and brand and where the product and she's a she grew up in PMM, so she's a super sharp product position person, but she marries it with a practicality of actually managing the marketing business. And so, you know, she's probably someone I admire the most from a CMO perspective. Um Sarah Vney at Data Dog I worked with also uh as a CMO. She's she's quite fantastic. Um, you know, the CEOs, it's an interesting question. I don't have a snap hip reaction answer. I mean, there's the obvious ones like Tim Cook at Apple. His ability to just kind of manage through change and and kind of keep his human humanity uh is pretty impressive, but I don't have anyone else that kind of pops to mind from big market perspective. It is a great question and I should probably think a little bit more about that answer, but from the CMO perspective, those are two. >> That's fantastic. And I'm sure other folks are saying Sam Allen when they're >> Yeah. Well, I don't know. We'll see. There's a lot to me to go do first. I appreciate that. >> Well, well, I'll check in with you a year from now. We'll see. We'll see where things are at. Um Um >> Yeah. >> But it's an exciting time. And Sam, you're at the center of it. So, um once again, put yourself at the center of >> Yeah. >> the biggest kind of activity in this in this >> No, no place I'd rather be. And I saw the last thing I'll tell you is I was reading a report on a marine one time and it said if you look for the dust cloud he's in the center and um that's just kind of how I feel about this opportunity all from a goodness perspective. But thank you >> very inspirational. Thank you so much Sam. It's been a really great um download on what you're doing and um so many leadership uh and marketing takeaways from from what you just described and walked me through. So thank you so much for joining me and I look forward to the next time we can talk. >> Anytime Jenny really appreciate it. 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