HistFest 2026: The Lost Voices of Pompeii with Dr Jess Venner and Dr Raksha Dave

Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to the third event of the day. Our last in our trilogy of ancient historical events um for the festival actually, although we might touch on some tomorrow. Um this this event is going to involve a volcanic eruption. So if you are of the nervous disposition, please um please be aware. Um it's it will focus on a book called The Lost Voices of Pompei. My name is Rebecca. I forgot to introduce myself in the last one, but I'm Rebecca. I'm the director of Hisfest. Um if you have if you have questions that you want to put to our speakers, there will be the opportunity to do that towards the end of the of the event. All you need to do in the room is raise your hand and we'll bring a mic to you if you're watching online. Um, you just put your question in the question box and we will get to those online questions as well. There will be a book signing after the event. So, please feel free to go and buy lots of books and uh get them signed. That would be great. Um, I will introduce our speakers. So, chairing the event today is Rakia Dave who's a friend to the festival now. Whether she likes it or not, she's a friend. She's chaired a couple of events now. She's a field archaeologist, a public archaeologist. um author and broadcaster and president of the Council for British Archaeology with experience in time periods spanning the prehistoric to the Second World War. In 2003, Ratcher became a regular face on TV, appearing in Channel 4's Time Team, presenting Digging for Britain, Digging Up the Past, The Great Plague, Inside Windsor Castle, and one of my favorite shows of recent times, Hidden Wonders with Sandy Toxfig. Her debut book, Lessons from Our Ancestors, won the Discover Category for the British Book Awards in 2024. Uh, and we are joined also by Dr. Jess Venner, who's an award-winning ancient historian and archaeologist, recipient of the prestigious Lever Lever um, Early Career Fellowship at the University of Oxford um, and the Rome Award, and an associate fellow of the Royal Historical Society. A trustee of the Oh, I there's always one word that I can never pronounce, but I'm going to try it. Herculanium Society. Maybe I did get that right. She's also a passionate also passionate about making ancient history accessible to her 166,000 followers on Tik Tok and 77,000 followers on Instagram, creating and sharing expert content via her platform, Life in the Past Lane. Brilliant title. Um, her highly acclaimed debut book, The Lost Voices of Pompei, The Final Day in Seven Lives, isn't even out yet. But don't worry, we have copies back there. Um, so you can purchase it here uniquely. Um, so welcome to the stage RA and Jess. Oo, so many of you. Hello. >> Hello. >> Do you know what? I could talk about this for hours, but I hear I've only got 50 minutes. So, um, everybody, this is the book. Um, and actually, I absolutely love this book because I think that archaeology is quite funny. We're very data heavy, >> but actually within all of that data are stories. And what you've done is you've put all of those bits of information together and you've created like this wonderful piece of pros. It's actually like lots of different stories of different people. and people who you wouldn't normally hear about as well. And I just I just thought it was wonderful. >> Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's really we were talking about this backstage backstage. Um but it was really weird these characters coming out that obviously do exist and I've been, you know, getting to know them for very many years now. Um and it's nice that they're finally having their stories told and people are speaking about them because they're not people we usually speak about. So, it's really nice to do that. >> Yeah, we I'll we'll talk about them in in a little bit, but um I kind of Who's actually been to Herculanium and Pompei here? >> So many people. >> Oh, that's great. I think I went I filmed there about Gosh, it must be like 10 years ago now. And didn't really fully appreciate that it's like a city. They're like two cities with within cities and and they're walking for miles. But um the the interesting thing is that it's like in an incredibly seismic area >> and the fact that there was actually a big earthquake in 62/63 CE. >> Um and just the fact that there were obviously uh hints of what was going to come. >> Um but let's talk about the elephant in the room, the eruption month. >> Oh yes. So, Ply says it's August, but archaeologists say otherwise, don't they? >> They do. So, it it's still a divide in academia. Um, it's an ongoing debate. The original date is the 24th of August. And we get this from Plenny the Younger, who wrote this in two letters to Tacitus, the historian, about 20 years after the event. And Ply the Younger witnessed, he was an eyewitness to the volcanic eruption in the Bay of Naples. Um, but of course this is 20 years later and I can't really remember what I had for dinner yesterday a lot of the time. So I, you know, there's part of me that's surprised that he can remember. Then again, elite men were, you know, very well trained in memory theory and remembering the smallest amount of details and the hugest speeches. So it makes sense that he would remember. Um, but saying that there are, you know, there's the manuscript tradition. Of course, there's mistakes that can happen when you transcribe manuscripts. These monks many years later were doing that. They didn't necessarily know the Latin that they were reading and so they were just copying out. And dating of Roman dating is very complicated to do. It's like maths. So, you know, that also makes sense. But yes, the archaeology is is really interesting as well. So there's kind of like almost like a threemonth skew, isn't there, in the fact that the Roman calendar is different to our calendar. >> Yeah, that can partly come into it, but it's mostly I I think it's mostly the manuscripts that are the issue because this is the date we've gone from the literature. Um but the archaeology says that actually so archobotony in particular so the study of plant remains in archaeology um are telling us a different story entirely. So there's this thing called now colloquially named the pomegranate problem. Um so at a villa right next door to Pompei uh a plontis um lots of pomegranates were found I mean a huge amount huge piles and they shouldn't have been harvest in August. So that's one of them. Um, another one is the vine harvest which should happen at the end of August. Um, but it seems to have already happened at the eruption which is supposed to be on the 24th. So for them to harvest the grapes, crush them, put them into dalia in the ground, these big terra cotta jars, and then to get the the grapes and crush them and put them in these big terra cotta jars in the floor, seal them with resin in a couple of days is like it's just impossible surely. So that's another one. Um, but then we found coins in in one of the houses, a house called the house of the golden bracelet. And there were two coins found there which are dated again very very close to the eruption date. So again for them to go into circulation is very odd. >> And my favorite I think is because I actually saw it myself with my own eyes. So the um the previous director Masimarasana when I was I get to go to amazing places and um they they were excavating Reio 5 when they found this amazing piece of graffitito and it's kind of like the quintessential he ate all the pies on a particular day and I've I've actually written it here. It says he indulged in food in a in in a im moderate manner. I think is the word is the words. That's the phrase. >> And it is it's quite interesting because of this massive earthquake in ' 62. >> Quite a lot of the residents had actually left already >> and some of the streets were going through what can only be described as um a bit of renovation, DIY. There's lots of DIY going on in houses. So >> this this graffitito is a builder. >> Mhm. >> Basically taking the Michael out of the other builder, >> I think. So he dates it 17th of October. And so that's another one. And it's written in charcoal, which you know doesn't really last that long. And of course, as you're saying, it was undergoing renovations, Pompei, for 17 years at least. Um there were still lots of cracks in the walls. There were still lots of buildings not in use. For example, the temple of Jupiter in the forum, which is the key temple in any Roman town, was out of action. And so they didn't have a huge amount of money to do these things. They were sort of doing it piece by piece really. And in this room with the charcoal graffiti, I'm sort of of the opinion that they would have been renovating this room not for a year plus. You know, I think it would have actually been um quite recent graffiti. And you know, some research has been done on charcoal and how long it lasts. we really like to go into detail. Um, and they found that it could last that long. But I'm of the opinion that actually based on my academic research that they would have needed this space a lot sooner than that. There were a lot more things going on. >> Yeah. And I vaguely remember cuz I remember walking down the street and it was obviously like cordoned off. Nobody could go in there. >> And um, actually the road in front of this villa was actually being renovated as well. like the the cobbles were kind of half on half off and >> they were obviously mending the fixing the road >> and in quite a lot of the houses they have um >> oh what are they called like flower mills and they were using them to make like plaster >> they were mixing plaster in them so there's loads of those obviously like reusing things that they had to kind of like do DIY which is >> yeah it was great >> they were very very innovative. Um they they loved to reuse material. That was their biggest thing. In fact, there was a law around this time put in place by the Senate to say, "Can everyone just stop demolishing things because you're making every town look really shabby. Can can we just stop?" Um and and so, as I mentioned in my academic research, I sort of um my main area is studying urban agriculture, so vineyards and orchards inside Pompei. And I found a 250% increase in these gardens after the earthquake of AD62. Um it's over 30 gardens popped up in the town. And this is because they were reusing space. They were reusing every bit that they could to make the most of what they had. So any empty space. It did happen of course, but for a year I'm I'm kind of suspicious about it. So, Poe and Herculanium because I think that obviously we know it as uh like famous archeological sites, but what about in the ancient Roman world? Like how important were they? Were they kind of quite central? Were they wellknown? >> Was it just like a holidaying venue? So many questions. >> Yeah. Um so they were very ordinary towns. Hercilanium was the posher version of Pompei. It was right on the on the sea. They were both on the sea, but the um the you know, Pompei was right near the river Sano and it had a harbor. Um but uh Herculanium was far more sort of fish industry based and it had a lot of wealth and if when you walk around it as you know um there's a lot more marble on the floor. There's sort of you know canopies to walk under. They sort of took care of their residents there. Pompei is a lot more merkantile. there were a lot of people coming in and out via ships and via the road and carts. Um it was a big market center as well. Um so it was involved in the same market network that Rome was and some surrounding towns. So it was clearly important. Um and when I think it's Suonius says about the he reports on the earthquake he says that um Pompei the famous town um and so it obviously is very well known but saying that after the eruption it sort of just gets lost to history so it wasn't exceptionally famous it wasn't a Carthage or anything. >> Yeah. But what I love about your book in particular is that you give a voice to the voiceless and um I think especially to the slaves >> and I think obviously like we have this like concept that obviously there was a slave economy but we don't often kind of factor that into the Roman Empire and think about the economics of slavery and how that actually made the empire successful. Um, and I think with this as well, you just kind of like bring that the life of the slaves that were running everything pretty much to life. And you do that through the the character Petronus. >> Yes. Yeah. I'm very pet. >> Petronis is an interesting one because of course I wanted to give a cross-section of Pompean life in this book and give perspectives of all sorts of different parts of society because we often talk about elite experiences and actually it's very important we talk about working people and the ordinary people that were making the empire turn over and of course slaves are part of this. Petronus was actually mentioned in a loan record between two women who one one of whom owned two slaves, Petronus and Simplex, who are in the book. And um and then the woman she was getting a loan from for quite a lot of money. Um she was giving these slaves as collateral. So if the other person didn't pay her back, she had the slaves to keep. And so I thought, "Oh, interesting. There's two names of a slave. This is unusual because usually they're freed men or women by the time you hear their names. Um, and so I wanted to tell his story. So, Petronus is a composite of many different slave experiences in the Roman Empire, particularly in Italy, that I was able to trace and track down. And the way I sadly had to go about it in reconstructing his day was from a top-down approach. So I reconstructed he was the first chapter I wrote actually Petronus and I wrote him so many times because I wanted to do him justice. Um but I sort of went from where his owner who is Gas Krispius Panza a politician in the book again a real person in Pompei. Um I wanted to see how he lived his day because as you know we we generally agree on how a Roman spent the day hour by hour. They were pretty stuck to that. And so I would look at how he would shadow that life. And that was literally what they were, slaves. They were shadows of these other people and not meant to be seen. But some people were some slaves were meant to be seen and very well-dressed and acted like they were free. And so I wanted to get that across. But also the prejudices and the awful experiences that they would have as slaves. I think there's like a bit in that chapter which kind of really resonated with me um because I kind of saw real life example of it when I went to um some of the excavations in Reio 5 >> um they actually found >> um the slave cells at the bottom next to the garden. It kind of like made me feel really sick cuz they were like these awful, dingy, tiny cell rooms >> next to this very opulent, beautiful garden. And you can just kind of like imagine, can't you, this I don't know, the the the owner of the villa and his wife sunning themselves outside and being waited hand and foot and there's like seven slaves and this cell trying to get a bit of rest before they're made to do something else. >> Yeah. Uh you kind of like mention that, don't you, in like Petronus, he like tries to get a nap and he's obviously has to, you know, share this room with a few other slaves. >> Yeah. That that room that he lives in in the book, it was um based on the one that was excavated not long ago where um it was a slave room, but it was also a sort of a storage cabinet basically. It was a bit like Harry Potter, you know, that sort of size. Um, and they found rodents in there and all sorts of weird material were being stored in there. They were sleeping on a bed without a mattress. Um, to be honest that they had a bed at all was was interesting. Um, but no, it absolutely is that. And you know, sometimes you find things I have the same reaction with a piece of graffiti in the house of the Vetti and um there's this girl who was being loaned out by the owner and they'd put a piece of graffiti in their entrance hallway in the atrium just saying um I think her name's Utica um you know she's for sale for two coins. Um, and it's just so brutal and it would have been. And then in the corner they have this makeshift brothel. Um, so clearly she had obviously no control over that, but she was used for more than just sorting out the house. Very brutal. >> I've been to that makeshift brothel. It's really weird. >> This weird room, isn't it? With the with the sex frescos on the wall and >> Yeah. And I think there's this I think it's the same one. I And there must be others. Anyway, really strange where >> it's like adjacent to this dining area. So, obviously >> they were entertaining guests >> and then they would be shuffled into this room for entertainment, let's say. Then there's these fresco of different sexual positions. >> Yes. >> But I think there's a door so you can actually take the fresco out of the wall and then put the act in what you want to see or take part in. And there was a curtain that separated it. So then you could open it and there'd be a tableau. It's like really was so strange. >> Really weird to us, isn't it? And so performative, but so usual to them. And it was just part of I mean the slaves were part of the objects that they owned in the house. It was they were just the same as, you know, a statue or um and even they would depict slaves in statues. This was just something that they were so used to. Whereas to us it's like so confronting and aggressive. um and rightfully so. But it is easy to forget, you know, when people go to the brothel in particular, the Lupinar in Pompei, it seems like a bit of a giggle, but actually looking at the stone beds that the girls used to work on and men as well with the stone pillows and you know, actually thinking about the reality of that, it would have been brutal and you know, and the only consolation is that they actually have a bed. Other people wouldn't and it would have been a lot more dangerous. So yeah, I think those little details really bring those people to life in a sad way. >> You do talk a lot about freed slaves though in your book. >> Um, and I was just kind of wondering like how much of a common experience that was. What were the chances of you actually becoming a freed person? >> Freed people were making up a great deal of Roman society in the first century AD and they were a lot more prolific than we would realize. They didn't have the same um rights always and it depended on how you were freed bizarrely um how many rights you would have and what you could do. Um but some of them had a great deal of freedom and particularly for their children as well. So freed people are all over Pompei and often freed people are very proud of being a freed person. They would sort of sort each other out. you might enter the Augustinales um cult which is the worship of the emperor Augustus. That was a very they were very proud of that one. Um but it it would often be put into their you know tombstones and so it was clearly not something to necessarily be ashamed of which might surprise us. Um but there are some characters in the book that have direct experience of this. Um but yes, they're all over Pompei and they're building the city quite proudly. >> Mhm. >> And I think one of them is um well Julia Felix, she owns this like massive villa complex >> and there's this really interesting dichotomy with her. I think that she's like if you look at her intersectionality like she's a woman, she's like a very successful business woman. You wouldn't really think about that when you think of Rome. >> She's you allude to the fact that she's a free slave >> potentially. potentially. And that, you know, kind of brings out other questions of >> she giving her money to the person who freed her or not, or was she just totally independent >> and just how unusual and that she was, I suppose. >> Oh, she's she's incredible. Um, so for anyone that isn't familiar with Julia Felix, she is a businesswoman um in Pompei. She's right near So, anyone remember, zoom back to Pompei. Um, there's an amphitheater in the southeastern corner of the city. And right opposite that is her estate, and she has basically orchards and flower gardens, huge ones. She has a vegetable garden that's sort of closed off to support her household. She has these baths, which she refers to herself as the Venus baths. She has dining areas, her own house, and then this public area. And then she's also renting out shops and um apartments as well. And we know all of this because on the outside of this estate is an advertisement by her in her name um advertising the service of all of these things. But Julia Felix in in her name Felix is usually associated with freed people. So that's the one clue. She also says she's daughter of Spurious. And this sort of alludes to the fact that she isn't the daughter of someone in particular. She's sort of she's I think she's creating a mystery about herself which I just love. I don't think she really wants anyone to know even back in the ancient period. I think she's such a clever character. She was even there's even some hints that she was involved in um m pedestrianizing the street outside her house and everything. So she was really involved and she's on this street. And when I started looking into her, I suddenly started finding all of these women along the same street. And the reason I could find them was because they're putting political endorsements on the outside of their homes. And most of them were female names, which is just amazing because they can't vote. So they're clearly there's some sort of community of women around this spot. >> I think that's quite surprising though, isn't it? >> I know. These kind of >> I don't know. It's like almost the look going against the your your own, you know, thoughts about what Rome would have been like, but also it's like prime real estate as well cuz you're right next to the amphitheater. >> Exactly. >> Where everybody goes to be entertained. >> Mhm. Yeah. I think she would have opened her gardens up as well because they open right onto the amphitheater and where all of the stalls would have been um outside the amphitheater. So I I reckon on games day where you can see it in the book would have been amazing atmosphere and she would have been right at the center of it. I reckon >> she's making quite a lot of money I think. >> Oh yeah, she's wealthy. Yeah, she's powerful in a good way. Yeah. >> So let's talk about food. >> Oh yes. >> Because this is the thing that I love about her Pompei is that you have amazing organic remains. >> And you have a particular character called Scarus. >> Yes. Um, and he um makes garam. >> Uhhuh. >> That fishy sauce that gets sent all way all across the empire as a delicacy. And I have to say I've tried it. So on time team they made us eat loads of weird stuff >> and we did actually garam. >> Yeah. >> It was gorgeous. It's like it is umami food. I think the equivalent I suppose for us is wor sauce. >> Yes. >> It's a good description actually. which is made in a similar way cuz I think you just how I mean how do you make it >> some of you know the best sort of garam you get the fish directly out of the sea and crush it immediately which seems so brutal and the dark blood goes into this fish sauce and then it's fermented with salt so it's a really salty sort of taste very salty obviously fishy uh it's fermented in these big jars um and they could leave it for longer periods of time dependent on how that how they wanted to the off cast of this. So like bits of bone and gooey bits would be sold to poor people. It was lquin. Um but garam or flour of garam which Scarus was particularly fond of selling um was was the higher quality and there were different ways to sort of make them in depending on how long you would do it or how you would crush the fish. It was very specific. I think the thing that I found what that was really intriguing >> was that he was also selling kosher version of Garham was like what? >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. He was and you know who was doing it was the other character in the book Ambriia Fortunata who was his freed woman and she clearly went into business for him. So her labels selling uh kosher fish sauce are on the bottles from Pompei and with her name, but she's taken so his full name is Alus Umbrichas Scowus and she has taken his name as you do when you when you're freed as a slave. Ambriia Fortunata Fortunata again it's a bit like Felix lucky or fortunate. Um and so um she was clearly really savvy and thought, "Oh, there's a niche in this market. I'm going to go after that one. She's great. >> I I think it's um Yeah, I just find it really fascinating because obviously as an archaeologist you're always finding >> aer everywhere >> everywhere. Yeah. >> Like I've excavated like the first Roman port in London and there was just like >> oh my god tons of it. >> Mhm. >> Uh and obviously there's only two things that could be in there and one of them was gar wine. >> Yes. Or oil. >> Yeah. Oh oil. Yeah. Oil. Yes. Um and also you kind of allude to well gladiators is it like the oldest amphitheater in Rome in in the Roman world. >> Yes. Oldest standing. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. I think it was built around 80 BC. So it's very very old. Even at the eruption it was nearly 200 years old which is quite something to get your head around. Actually clearly built it very well because it just literally stood the test of time. >> I've sat in the seats. It's great. >> Yeah. That's fabulous, isn't it? I know. Apparently, um, Russell Crowe did a did a performance there with his band >> and he was singing and, um, >> did he stroke any barley as well? >> I don't think so. But apparently he was just wandering around. Anyone knows Sophie Haye? She took him around Pompei. I mean, what a what a bizarre experience. >> They do have they have gigs there, don't they? They think Floyd paid there. >> Yes. Yes. Great album. Um, can't remember. >> Yeah, it's quite common, I think, to do that, but apparently they just asked him to do it and barely anyone went, I think, cuz no one really knew what was going on or about his band and then they realized it was Russell Crow and they were like, "What?" Yeah, I would love to see that. >> Great acoustics. >> Fabulous. >> But Gladiators, >> yes, we got sidetracked. Russell Crowe. Gladiators. Yes, of course. Fascinating part of Roman history. And Pompei is really interesting for a few reasons with gladiators because after the earthquake in AD62, they actually sort of put more time into the gladiators and they created the gladiator barracks right next to the Greek theater. So they were expanding the space used to train these gladiators and usually traditionally they would have been uh trained the best ones especially um at Julius Caesar's um uh barracks in Rome. But now Pompei is trying to have its own market, I think. Um, and this is interesting for a couple of reasons. Because there was a riot. >> Oh, I've heard about this riot. >> Yes. Yes. There was a riot in 59 >> war match >> basically. Yes. There were hooligans. Um, they took it incredibly seriously because all over the city there's graffiti about the scores of gladiators or like who their favorite one is or whatever. Um, and so yeah. No, it's so this riot happens and Pompei is banned from holding gladiator matches for 10 years. Um the Senate says no more, but clearly they just carry on anyway. Um and they build this barracks. So they're like nah. Um and so this is obviously still going on at the time of of the eruption. Um and so the gladiators are really interesting there. Also again the brutal side, we have sort of shackles found in the gladiator barracks. All of their materials. So the helmets that are really famous were found in Pompei. Um but it's a it's a fabulous sort of area, this big huge courtyard next to the Greek theater. Um but it was all this sort of entertainment district. Really interesting. Yeah, because I went I went to because they were excavating the gladiator school opposed to the barracks >> because um during the Second World War there was a bomb raid >> and I think there there's lots of subsidance and then they had to go in and excavate that particular part. >> Yeah. this amazing frescos on the walls and actually finding kind of like niches and where they had shelves to put all of like their wooden swords and stuff and of armor is pretty cool. >> That's the one near Julia Felix's house, isn't it? On the AA de la Bondanza. Yeah, I've had a little peek in it. >> Every time I go it's shut. Um but yeah, I need to go back and go in behind the scenes, I think. Ask ask about that one. Sounds good. >> It's Yeah, it's great. I'm I'm terrible. I've been everywhere. So sorry. No, it's great. >> Um >> uh yeah. So, and also you have these like amazing fresco, don't you? Like they found those really brilliant frescos of the gladiators and the different types of gladiators >> next to that thermopula >> on that on the wall. I think it was. Yeah. Don't know. Was it that a bar or was it a kind of like a like an inn or something? >> Yeah, I mean they're found in quite a lot of locations. And some of them are quite big scratched. They're sort of scratched graffiti into plaster. Um but sometimes there's the ones that you're mentioning, the fresco which are in very big color um in the new excavations. Exactly. And yes, it was found near um uh in building. Um so yes, this is a really good source of you know, it's just reaffirms what we knew about gladiators and what they looked like and what they wore. Um, and you know, one of these fresco has one of the gladiators has got a gash in his leg and the blood coming out. Um, because you'd usually fight to first blood um, not actually kill them because they were incredibly valuable and they really only fought about 10 10ish times in their life, which is crazy. I think one of them in Pompei was finally beat and it was his 12th round, like his 12th fight ever, and he was beat by a a novice, which must have been awful. He's probably anticipating his retirement and then he gets beat. He's probably like, "Oh, forget it." >> So, they like almost all always like that nobody dies or they just get very in, you know, severely injured and >> Yeah, you do. There were definitely deaths. Um, there were two sort of rooms that you would be pulled into after a gladiator match. There was one that you would be uh treated in and then another one where you'd put the bodies. So, it depended what you were doing, but usually the people that were dying were, you know, not gladiators because they it was such a lot of money to train up a gladiator and and look after them. They ate a huge amount because obviously it's like, you know, weightlifting. Exactly. Um, and so, you know, to make that choice was it would be a big deal, a big investment to kill a gladiator. Yeah. >> So, from gladiators to the poor. >> Yes. >> You don't very rarely like hear about poor people in Pompei, do you? And I think >> you kind of depict them very well. Um, and the fact that also I was really interesting to me was the fact that after the earthquake quite a lot of poor people are using shells of buildings that had partially fallen down for like businesses or cooking. >> Oh yeah, that kind of thing. >> Yeah. So um, as I mentioned with the urban agriculture, but it was the same with workshops as well. Historically, way back when, you know, academia started in Pompei, um there were theories that there had been this mass exodus of poor people and so um that and they no sorry a mass mass exodus of rich people which let poor people come in. Um but this was very much like a a biased view of the time that this was being written, you know, over a hundred years ago. And so um we more recently in the excavations it's now being prioritized that we look at workingclass people or workingclass working poor people a bit more and the merkantile side of things. Um and so workshops are showing up a lot more slave areas the actual places that people lived instead of instead of these beautiful villas that are inside the town with all these fabulous fresco and statues and things. How did act how did normal people live? And you know, we lost a lot of it during the eruption because the top layers of buildings were taken out. And so we're losing all of these apartments that normal people lived in, you know, and the material that was in those and how they decorated them and things like that. >> And they were like normally in the above shops, were they room kind of dwellings? Yes. >> For families. >> Yes. And you can see them at Herculanium really well, the upper floors a lot more because of the way it was preserved. Herculanium was buried under 20 m and it's much closer to the volcano. So 20 mters of volcanic material. Pompei was six, but it was it suffered a really violent pyrolastic flow which took out a lot of the top layers of the city. So we've got different examples of living, but they would have had very similar arrangements. Interestingly though, some studies were done on the um sewers sewers in Herculanium and it turns out the people in the apartments upstairs were not necessarily poor, but they were actually eating as well as the people down downstairs. >> Yes. So, it's kind of it's being questioned whether that was >> Well, that's the other thing as well. There are like no cooking facilities are there within those little apartments. Everybody is living on fast food culture. >> Fast food. Yes. Yes. So if you were poor, you would go out and have fast food. If you were rich, you would eat in. It's kind of a little bit different now. It's kind of segways into my next bit very well because I'm really fascinated by those little fast food bars. So you have like the bigger establishments which are >> the thermopula and then you have those little bars at the end of almost every street. The kalpona. >> Yes. Yes. Yeah. Love a kalpona. It's basically a pub garden property. >> Yeah. And you It's almost like a little version, don't isn't it? Because you have that you still have that L-shaped bar at the front >> offering little snacks. >> Mhm. >> Picky bits. >> Yeah. And then obviously in the back you can >> do a bit of gambling and uh >> Yes. What's going on? Some >> wine. Exactly. They were sort of depicted in ancient literature as really like dark seedy places to go. I think Nero dressed up once and tried to sneak into some pubs and do a pub crawl because he was kind of feeling like he was missing out. I think they would have been really good places to go. And >> that's a lot of pubs though. >> There's a lot of pubs. Yeah. And you know they they they're quite diverse I think. So one of the characters in in my book is Uxenus and he's an inkeeper and he actually again did exist and he we know exactly where he lived. He lived in a Calpona right near the amphitheater again. there's a lot going on over there. Um, and after the earthquake, he sort of built a pub garden at the back of his inn. Um, because he realized and he started planting vines in there as well. So, he realized that people were not only wanting sort of a bit more of a luxury experience while they drink because they're trying to copy the elite. Um, but he was also trying to make his own wine, which would have been a bit rubbish, I think. Um, and he only had sort of two pots of it. So, I don't know how much he would have been making, but it would have given you a headache. >> Like when you were drink >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think Pompei was talked about by Plenny as if you drink the wine from Pompei, you're going to get a headache. So, it was like it was great wine. I don't think >> offering some rough stuff. >> Strong wine. >> I love those thermopoli as well. They're just this kind of alfresco eating culture. >> It's fabulous. >> It's very Mediterranean. It is. >> And also just the beautiful. There was that one that was found oh about seven years ago, six years ago. And it had those amazing fresco almost like advertisements. >> Oh, the yellow one of >> Yeah. what of what they were selling. But I love the fact that it had that beware of the dog sign. >> I know. >> But when they did the they actually found the remains of the dog, which wasn't big or fierce, by the way. It was a tiny laptop. It was a little one. >> And I find that fascinating because like it's that whole idea, isn't it, of uh everybody has this like idea of um dog breeding. It's like a very recent thing, but actually back then everybody loved a lap dog as well. >> I know. And you know, so we had two main dogs. Well, there is another one, but in Pompei we have two main dogs. We have the Laconian hound, which is the very scarylooking pointy dog with the pointy ears, the dark fur, long tail, long legs, very fast, very big teeth, literally described like that in ancient literature. And he's they're the ones on the mosaics, the beware in cavanim. And then we've got the lap dogs, and they were basically Maltese terriers, which I used to have. So I feel even more, you know. Um, but interestingly, there's almost no gardens without one of these types of dogs in and the Maltes ones would have been ratting because there was there was a huge rodent problem. Of course, they didn't really keep cats as pets. That wasn't really a thing, but they sort of let cats roam about because it would help with the rodent problem, but dogs were Yeah, they were very fond of dogs. There's a lot of epitaps. Soerary epitaps um remembering their dogs you know saying one of them says I remember when I brought you home and now I'm crying over you and things like it's so sad but yeah so they were actually really you know valuable members of the family as well as guard dogs but some of them were found so one was found on the via Bondanza which is the main shopping street it was found inside a house the house of Pacquiao's proculus and just inside there's sort of a room that would have been used by the um the steward and underneath a bed in there for the steward, a dog was found cowering. Um, which is just devastating. So, some of them were left to guard the houses because they thought they would come back and they would thought they would need security for it during the eruption. >> Yeah. >> Very sad. But do what about that the the pizza image? >> Yes. >> Do do you believe the pizza image? >> It really does look like a pizza. It's more of a fata I would say. Yeah, they had like a version of a fkatcha and it was very typical to put things on top. So, in a way it kind of was. And you know, Naples is the home of pizza, but no, not not officially pizza. There was no tomatoes either, of course. So, yeah. Um, and someone said pineapple on the top, but I don't >> definitely definitely not, by the way. >> Did you know pineapple pizza was invented in Canada? >> Say Hawaiian pizza. >> It's a random fact. I love that. >> I know. I'm pub quiz. I'm Greek. >> And it's Hawaiian, interestingly. Yeah, >> I remember that one. >> Um, so, uh, I remember going into the labs at Pompei and there's all the carbonized. They're like, they're almost like tear and share, aren't they? Those bits of bread. >> Yes. >> And all the different types of food. And I think the most incredible thing I saw was there's a there's like a special drawer and you open it up and um just vibrant pots of paint like as though somebody left them yesterday. >> Mhm. >> And >> love those. >> I this made my day. It was literally um golden ribbon like as though somebody had gone to the habashes. >> Oh god. And it's so delicate, isn't it? >> Yeah. But she she was like, "Oh, you're an archaeologist. you can touch it. I was like, can I can I really? >> Yeah, I know. >> I think I should. Uh, but it's amazing. It's like somebody went to the shop and just snipped it. >> I know. >> It's all there. >> It's incredible. I think that's there's definitely some ribbon or at least there was on display in the Herculanium uh museum. So, if you do go soon, have a look because the like the threads in it are so small and the fact that this was made like 2,000 years ago is just mindblowing. The fact that it's managed to survive. Incredible. >> Also, it's just like the the warp and weft is so fine. >> Yeah, it is. >> And I think that blows my mind that it was actually all handmade. >> Handmade. Yes. >> There's no industrialization in that whatsoever, but it's just perfect. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um and I suppose you also like with clothing you get glimpses of what people were wearing from the plaster casts that were made of the people that died eruption. >> So we have about a hundred plaster casts remaining. Some were destroyed in in the world wars when Pompei was sadly bombed. Um, and so the plaster casts, of course, and I'll just just in case, um, plaster casts were able to be made because during the eruption, of course, the volcanic material falls over a person. Um, and they weren't sort of like incinerated, so their bodies were there. Um, they were covered with the volcanic material, which hardened over time. And inside that obviously the body decayed and it left a skeleton but also a cavity. And within that cavity archaeologists are able to find the cavity and fill it with plaster of Paris. And this is why we've got about 100 plaster casts left remaining which you can go and see. And some of them have been reproduced because they go around the world. But um horrifyingly with some of these you can see their bones poking through and also the outline of their clothes because obviously the clothes were on the um in the volcanic material as well. So you can see the straps of shoes, you can see marks of jewelry, you can see the cloaks on them. There's one character um a person who is a mule driver and he was found in the um palistra with a cloak on him for example. Um and some other ones you can sort of see a belt around and the normal tunic. So it's and the you know and again the weft of the the tunic the wool tunic and the going back to the eruption date. This is one of the reasons people think again it's an autumn date because people were wearing wool. I don't agree with that necessarily because it would have been the sun was blocked out during the eruptions. It's going to be chilly. It was dark. They're trying to run away with all their belongings. They're going to be putting stuff on and stuff's falling from the sky. It's incredibly hot the stones that are falling and they're actually burning the skin as they touch the skin. And so putting wool on which is fire resistant would have made sense. So, just as a side note, because that's one thing that people often come up with, but I'm not sure about that one. >> But yes, it's very vivid seeing their clothes. Just horrifying. >> Um, also just like the organic remains. There's like such a stark difference between Pompei and Hercules. with obviously with Pompei you you do get kind of food remains. Yeah. >> But there's more kind of this kind of technique that you're using by >> figuring out like furniture because of the cavities that are within that um the pi. But then when you go to herculanium it's so different. >> Yeah. >> Because everything is instantly carbonized. The the way that the pyrolastic flow when the column collapses, it just preserves things in a different way. Yes. >> And I the thing the thing that gave me the chills was going into that cons wooden conservation lab in Herculanium. >> My goodness, that is the smell of the eruption. It's it still smells of fire when you walk in there. >> I I always say that archaeology like brings the five senses to life. And >> yeah, >> that was the smell that was the smell of that day. It is It is chilling. >> It is chilling. Um, I I think you know, Herculanium, the the carbonized materials are really heart-wrenching, I think, because they literally are the objects that they, you know, the cupboards they would have opened, the cot that they would have rocked. The cot, by the way, in Herculanium was found with a baby in it. So it's very aggressive I think the carbonized materials because of course the people are but next is the carbonized materials for me because yeah you have this this ex exact image almost of what it would have looked like. You've got sort of wine storage um shelves and you know doors and shutters and it really does let you you you know when you walk through Herculanium and a lot of you would have seen this the beams and staircases in wood. It's just actually a lot isn't it to take in when you look at >> Yeah. I think after I I filmed there twice >> I've probably been there for like good long stints. Every time I've come back I've been really depressed. saying it is >> because it is it's hor it's it's horrific. >> It's heavy. It's very heavy. >> Yeah. Because it you know it's people that died in a horrific natural disaster. >> Yeah. And it's easy to forget that um you know Pompei and Herculanium was we were talking about this earlier and I was saying how um Pompei has been so Hollywoodized that we forget that actually real people passed away. Real people had to deal with the fallout of this afterwards. They were refugees in their own country. They no longer had their homes, their place of work and income. They couldn't find their families again because how would you in the ancient world, you know, you've all spread out. How would you find them again if there's no Pompei to go back to? Um, you know, they've lost friends and family and children in the eruption. Uh, it wasn't just the pyrolastic flow. It was the pummus falling from the sky. It was the suffocation. And so yeah, from that perspective, how do you sort of remember that? Um, and yeah, I think the best way is to remember the people and talk about those people instead of their destruction. >> I find it really interesting actually. Let's let's talk about the archaeology cuz um I find it quite weird. Um, I find it almost kind of gut-wrenching and a bit strange that it is holized in a way and is almost like >> a moraleum >> really. It's like a tableau of what happened on at a particular event on a particular day. >> Yeah. >> Of where like hundreds of people died. >> Yeah. >> Perished or they had to flee or whatever. >> Yeah. >> It's it's I find it quite odd. >> It is odd. Um the the current death rate is about 10%. Um which doesn't sound like a lot but for a population of 20,000 that's quite a lot. Um but it could have been worse you know and this is just based on the bodies that are found in Pompei of course around Pompei. Again anyone that's been there will know that it's very built up. So we've got lots of bodies under there too. For example, lots of bodies were found on the roads going out of Pompei and also they were coming back in as well because there was a lull in the eruption um sadly. So, a lot of people were coming back in. But it has and it you know as humans we're fascinated by disaster but we it we're also able to cope with disaster I think because we dehumanize it in a way um by talking about it as an event instead of about the people that are affected. Um and Pompei is one of those. It's of course a very dramatic story. We're able to look at ancient Rome in miniature. Um but of course it was it's still a human tragedy that we should remember respectfully as well. >> Yeah. And I think it's all very difficult also to kind of grasp that it's a landscape story as well. >> So it wasn't it wasn't just these two places that were affected. We're actually talking about the Bay of Naples as a whole. Yeah, >> I actually went to excavation as well in Stabia. >> Yes. >> Um and >> they had um although they weren't that affected by the pyrolastic flow, you could still see it in the strategraphy. >> Mhm. >> And and because it's such a volatile seismic area, >> you could also see other activity prior to that. So they were actually inundated from tsunami. >> Yeah. as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I mean, I've been to the seismology seismology center in Naples. >> Oh, yeah. >> And it's scary. >> Yeah. Don't go. >> There's an alarm that goes off when any kind of major earthquake happens, >> which is all the time at the moment. >> It's like every second, by the way. >> Don't be too scared. I've I've spoken to the guy that's in charge of the volcanology, you know, team there, and he was talking about Campi Flegre, which is the big volcano under Naples. And then we've got Vuvius. Vuvius at the moment is on green, which is good. Uh Campy Flegre is on orange. Not great. Um but they have a plan to get out. Um and that he said that you should have about two days notice. So for any worriers out there, cuz I had my first question. And I thought, I'm not going back if it's going to keep. >> It doesn't help though, does it? When you go there and they have these like cameras on um the volcanoes and there's super mass ejector on the top of it. It's a bit wormy, isn't it? >> I know. I know. But at least there's a huge team looking at it and um they do have a plan. But you know, the volcanic eruption for Pompei happened over 24 hours and we now have the context of knowing what's going to happen. So, which they didn't. So, you know, just to make you all feel a little bit better, just walk the opposite direction of the wind and >> you should be okay. >> I've been told as well there's time to get out. So, you >> Yeah. >> Um, just one last question before we go to wider questions. >> Um, >> people coming back and looting. >> Oh yes. >> Which was a thing. >> It was for very many years. So after the eruption, it all settled down. You know, after I said like about 24 hours or so later, it finally the pummus stopped falling and all went quiet and literally the dust settled and people went back, of course, to see what happened. People had left at different points, so they had no idea what they were going to find. And what they found was almost a graveyard of buildings poking out of the material. And this material as the rains hit got harder and harder and ended up being like cement. But in that meantime, they started tunneling down um to try and find materials. As we've covered, they were big on reuse in the Roman period. So they were trying to find marble, for example. when excavators did, you know, excavated the forum, they found a lot of brick there and they thought, "This is really weird because this should be very nice and, you know, a marble forum like a normal Roman town. Um, it's because they'd actually already taken the marble off of the buildings and they'd taken some statues out. Um, and you know, as time went on, people kept doing this and it was sort of a local legend known that Pompei was there. So even even in hundreds of years later, people started tunneling down again, treasure hunting. Um, and some skeletons not from the AD79 level have been found in the Roman houses underneath because they would suffocate or there was sort of dead air down there which is horrendous. Um, or a tunnel would collapse or whatever. And you when you go there you can see holes in the wall and often these are from the tunneling. Um, so yeah, really interesting. And then as you mentioned people started living on top of the site and eventually the area was you know repopulated and they started growing vines and things again in the area because it's so fertile they had to but apart from that it was pretty much lost to time. >> Great wine Greco Dufo amazing that's all I'm saying. >> There you go. >> Right. questions. Lady with a t-shirt. >> Oh, somebody's coming with a mic. I could have gone on for hours, you know, could have chatted for >> Oh, me too. I mean, I have been going for years about this. >> Um, thank you ladies. is that was a really fascinating conversation. Um what you were saying about how oh we're going to have warning if it goes again and we we understand the context of what's happening which obviously the ancient peoples didn't have. So what do we know about what was their understanding of what was going on? Did they understand this as nature? Was there some sort of superstitious we've anchored the gods kind of thought going around? Like what did they believe had happened? >> Yeah, such a good question. Um so they didn't know that it was a volcano. Um but there were some murmurings in the ancient literature. So for example um an architect called Vituvius was saying bit weird. There's pummus near Vuvius. He called it spongstone. Um and he related it to Etna which they did know was a volcano. So they were starting to sort of think this is a bit odd. Other writers say, "Well, there's fire at the base of Vuvius fire pits. Something has burned there." Um, they're talking about the earthquakes, of course, and they would have they would have made an association that that sort of thing is happening elsewhere. But nobody specifically calls it a volcano. In fact, it was sort of just seen as a giver of life. Um there's a lovely fresco from the town with Bakus, the god of wine, next to the Vuvius. And he's dressed as, you know, this bunch of grapes. It's very fabulous. Um and Vuvius is covered in vines, these trelluses and vines because that's how it was being used. And famously, Spartacus even used the vines when he hid on Vuvius um to to go down the rocks. So, um, no one really knew what it was, but during the eruption, as Plenny the Younger tells us, they apparently saw, um, giants coming out of the clouds of the dust. Um, some people were wailing for the gods or saying, "The gods have abandoned us." Um, and other people had just lost all hope. And he thought it was the end of the world. And actually says, "There's no use. There was no use in me being worried because all of us were in it together." um at this end of the world and the light had gone out forever. >> I think g also geologically speaking the last time Vuvius had erupted prior to that 79 AD was in the Bronze Age. >> Yeah. >> So I don't think that there would have been a generational knowledge of that. Um and also during that eruption the the famous one that's when you the the coldier appears. So the craters form. >> Yeah. >> Which I've also walked down. >> I know it's it's weird up there. It's like, oh, it's a pit >> sort of like >> there's lots of um sensors around it. So, um the chem the the chemical um the the notes they change. So, that's when they are alerted to seismic activity >> and that happens about a month before it goes. So, go on your holidays. >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah. >> Hi. Thank you. So for me when I started reading about the findings um I was really fascinated by what they revealed about the eating habits and also the life of the working class which I thought was going to be much more oppressed than what it seems to actually have been. So I was wondering it's a question in two parts. First of all, what was the one aspect of life at that time that changed with the findings? Like what what conception changed after the findings? And also it was it representative of life in that area in general? Was Pompei a little bit of a pioneer, a little bit of an outlier in terms of life compared to other places um in Rome and Greece of the same kind of era, do you think? So um oh excuse me um so Pompei um was good for specialist manufacturing. This particularly took off in the first century AD especially around the mid 1st century. So you know 30 yearsish 40 years before esse for about 50 years. So he was an old man by the time of the eruption. Um and of course Garam production is very specialist. He actually started outsourcing we think his garam production because it got too big for the boots of Pompei. Um so in terms of that people were very much involved in a lot of different specialist manufacturing. So jewelry was quite big. Um they were known for obviously gardening I've mentioned. So Pompei was famous for cabbages and cherries specifically. Um, and so there were lots of different things that people would be involved in. And I think they were incredibly industrious in that sense and probably not as fixed on a job as we are. I mean, obviously if you were a carpenter, you're a carpenter. If you're a baker, you're a baker. But I think they would be much more involved in community life than we now are. Um, but working people very much relied on one another. There were networks like Colleigia which were um colleial groups of occupations. There were official ones and unofficial ones and they would sort of support one another. They were very um they were very prevalent in Pompei. For example, I've found five instances of graffiti by the fruit sellers alone. Um so they were clearly all involving themselves, but religion is another one of those that working people were getting very involved with and this is very typical. Um, Pompei is very typical. It's supporting what we thought about other places and that's why it's such a wonderful thing to study. Um, there's nothing really exceptionally extraordinary about it, which is it's extraordinary thing is the fact that we've preserved that. Yeah. >> Sadly. Um, but yes, thank you. >> Here at the front there's Thank you for that discussion. I'm very excited to read the book. >> Thank you. So, you never really told us when you think the eruption happened. Not autumn. You didn't say when exactly. >> I'm being Switzerland, aren't I? My um the date that I've gone with for the book is the 24th of October. I as an archbotist, I think that the archbot supports an autumn date the best. Um, and I think based on this graffiti as well, it just seemed sensible to go with a few days after that graffiti of the 17th of October to the 24th of October. But manuscripts of Plin's letters also mention November as well. So they mention November, October and August. Um, most often um August obviously is the one that's mentioned the most, but there are other mentions. Um, and I think autumn is the one. And you know I mentioned the wind as well earlier about walking away from the wind. The wind actually changes based on the season too. So it was blowing in a southeasterly direction for the eruption. And this is an autumal direction for the wind. Who knew by the way that this is like something that study I think is incredible. If it had been the summer it would have been blowing the other way. So that's another I think quite a quite a good bit of evidence. Yes. Thank you. It's unofficial though, by the way. I'm still on the fence. >> I'm open to it being something else. Um, I'm wondering if you could say a bit more about the refugee crisis and how that sort of really drastically changed the fortunes of lots of different people in Pompei and particularly thinking about the enslaved peoples and how the kind of the total chaos in the destruction of the city kind of changed fortunes for for the different um >> I think that's one thing that we didn't talk about. We didn't have time to talk about the survivors. >> Yeah. Um because obviously they were survivors. >> Yeah. So yeah, so based on the current estimates, it would be around 80 to 90% of people got out. Of course, they would have um suffered breathing issues and probably long-term fallout from these, you know, the symptoms of the eruption, I imagine. Um but yeah, so slaves, um I like to think a lot of them would have taken that opportunity to do something about it. Um I hope that I hope so anyway and escape. Um in other cases, yes, a lot of people would have been made refugees. The more elite people that were well-connected probably would have gone to places like Rome. Puti was a big trading hub and harbor um not far from Pompei, but it wasn't really affected by the eruption. So that was another one. Um there are studies out there and again in academia it's it's not accepted right now. um about survival theories about who survived. Roman names are very commonly used. So to trace and Roman name down is like tracing John Smith from one place to another. It's you know you can't prove anything really. Um there are certain names and I won't give them away because I do say about it in the book um that are thought to be traceable. um but which is you know fairly interesting but again we can't be absolutely sure um so yes but the the refugee crisis was an issue and the emperor Titus at the time put together um a fund to support the refugees um and this was partly funded by the people that had been lost in the eruption and had had their property but no one was there to claim it um and so that was one way of doing it but to be honest it sort of just wasn't discussed after that point and I imagine these people just had to carry on and sort themselves out which is very very sad. Thank you. >> I think we've got time for two more questions. Do you have any online questions? >> Yeah, we do. Um this is a really interesting one from Hannah actually. Um there's been a lot of discussion recently around the ethics of displaying human remains. >> Um and as far as as they know the plaster cast from Pompei haven't been part of that discussion at all. Um, do you have any thoughts about it? >> Oh, I've got lots of thoughts about it. >> Go ahead. >> Um, because, uh, part of one series that I made, we very strangely took plaster casts and, um, CT scan them for the first time and found out that a lot of them were doctorred um, into certain positions. So, it's almost like making this like kind of macab tableau of death. Um, and I think there I think they need to not be on display. Um, I've got very strong feelings about human remains on display anyway in museums. Um, and I think that all needs to be revised and rethought essentially. Um, because they are people. We're using people for entertainment and they have died in the most hideous of ways. You can actually see it on the plaster cast as well. I'm sorry. I'm going to talk about very triggering, horrible things, but you can see people in their last throws of death that the pyrolastic surge makes people do awful things in their last moments. And you can see that on on there. It's horrific. And that's why when I came home, I was like so disturbed for like for like weeks. For weeks. >> Yeah. I'm the same. When there's one garden called the Garden of Fugitives, as you know, and there's multiple people in that garden, including children, and it's the famous one where the man's sort of leaning on his elbow looking up and you can see his eyes. Um, and it always makes me tear up because yes, they're humans. And you have to question in these things. And I don't agree with the display of human remains either because I think you have to question again these people are real people. Would we want to be on display or would we want to be put to peace and left alone? The other thing from a practical point of view obviously from an ethical point of view awful from practical point of view that those you know plaster casts are now supposed to be protected. >> Oh, they're cracking off >> and they're cracking and they're getting they're crumbling and they're getting lost again. the second life of it is being, you know, wasted and not looked after when they're on display in a hot glass cabinet in on the site. Um, so yeah, I am with you on that one. One last question from online or is there one in the audience perhaps? >> Kind of leads on a little bit from that last one. Um, how big a problem is it now to preserve the archaeology which has been exposed? >> Oh, um, huge. >> I think what don't people don't realize is there's an incredible team of archaeologists who work on site all year round and conservators. And the problem is is that once you expose archaeology, then the next question is is about conserving it because once it's open to the elements, it's it just starts degrading. Um so that is a massive problem for for Pompei and Herculanium because it's a massive park essentially, isn't it? A heritage park doesn't just um cover those two sites. there's other villa sites outside in in the surrounding landscape as well that they manage. Um, and that's why really they don't really excavate unless something is at threat. So the recent excavations they've just they they because they're subsiding there's there's a chance of um buildings collapsing. So they actually have to do something. Um that's when archaeology normally happens. It's an intervention into um some form of mitigation of um you know whether you're building a road here or something is going to be destroyed that's when archaeology and excavation happens. We don't just do it for the sake of doing it. >> Yeah. Exactly. And I'm I'm in the camp I'm you know partly but mostly in the camp that um we should only excavate when we have the means and the money to look after it afterwards just opening it up like we you know did historically um archaeologists did many years ago and actually not even sometimes many years ago um just to expose it and if you haven't got the resources to look after those things that you're finding then you know leave it alone because it is it is the key thing is that it's preserved by the volcanic eruption perfectly and so the best place for it is under the material. When we have the resources and the time and the technology to look after it, then we absolutely should continue. And you know, in in recent years at the site, archaeological excavations have come on leaps and bounds in terms of what we're recording, how we're recording it, how we're preserving it, and it's great to see. Um, and they're not rushing, but I think it absolutely should be the case that we shouldn't rush these things. There's still a third to go of the site. So maybe we should just sort of leave most of that. >> And I think you also have to remember that when like excavation isn't the end process of archaeology, that's the beginning. And it's a bit like an iceberg where >> that is literally the top of the pyramid. everything else that comes underneath like the analysis, crunching the data, looking at the landscape, looking at the bot, looking at the human remains, the animal bone, everything. We basically look at everything. All of that analysis and all of those stories come out after the excavation. That that is a massive thing to generate. It takes a lot of time and lots of people and lots of publications. So, um yeah, we generally don't we generally don't excavate. Mhm. Yeah. It should stay that way. Really? >> Yeah. >> Says two archaeologists. >> Yeah. >> Ourselves out of jobs for stories to tell. >> I know. It's enough to go on. >> Yeah. >> Thank you for your questions. Really good questions. >> Um Jess will be signing books outside. >> Yay. It's my first one though, so that's very exciting. But thank you all so much for listening. It's been really You've been a lovely audience. Yeah. Oh, thank you.