Video summary
In this discussion, Ben Shapiro reflects on his evolving relationship with Jordan Peterson since their initial meeting around 2015 or 2016 during events in Canada amidst Bill C-16 debates. Both men initially exchanged book lists and found common ground through intellectual curiosity, particularly regarding Peterson's work *Maps of Meaning* and its application to biblical analysis. Shapiro notes that while he sometimes disagrees with specific conclusions drawn by Peterson, the process of searching for answers remains deeply inspiring. He acknowledges a shift in Peterson's recent content toward politics and religion since joining Daily Wire, observing that some audience members miss his earlier "spit and sword" style focused on personal development. However, both agree that this pivot may be temporary; as Peterson gains influence, he feels compelled to explore broader societal issues but is expected to eventually return to the practical life advice found in works like *12 Rules for Life*. Shapiro also addresses how his own content strategy has shifted under Peterson's influence, moving from pure political commentary toward incorporating more personal philosophy and life advice. He notes that while he still prioritizes daily news coverage due to audience expectations, there is a tension between maintaining relevance with current events and pursuing deep, long-term intellectual projects like biblical exegesis or literary analysis of works such as *Moby Dick*. Shapiro admits his audience prefers political updates over deep dives into Hebrew texts or classic literature, illustrating the concept that "we are what we pretend to be" by highlighting how different media platforms shape public perception. He uses an optical illusion analogy to explain how context alters interpretation: criticizing Donald Trump's behavior on Truth Social might anger his own viewers but align with Bill Maher's audience expectations, demonstrating how medium dictates message reception. Despite the constraints of daily news cycles and fleeting video content, Shapiro remains committed to creating enduring works that transcend temporary political debates. He cites *The Right Side of History*, a 250-page review of Western philosophy he considers his proudest achievement with lasting shelf life, as evidence of his desire for archival value rather than transient engagement. While some episodes on niche topics like the economic and military connections between GDP and defense spending receive lower viewership, Shapiro values these deep dives because they offer unique insights unavailable to general commentators. He envisions future projects involving roundtable discussions with historians like Victor Davis Hanson or John Keegan to explore historical events such as World War II from 1933 onward, believing such content would resonate deeply even if it does not align perfectly with daily news cycles. The conversation concludes with both speakers recognizing the inherent limitations of digital media in preserving non-fiction ideas over time unless they are encapsulated within books or films. Shapiro emphasizes that while he enjoys discussing big concepts like military spending trends versus GDP across centuries, these topics often struggle to gain traction when overshadowed by immediate political events. He maintains a nightstand filled with specialized texts on subjects ranging from the Taiwan Strait conflict to Western philosophy rather than daily news sources, underscoring his preference for depth over breadth despite audience demands. Ultimately, both men express hope that Peterson will continue balancing macro-level explorations of religion and politics with micro-level practical guidance, ensuring he remains accessible while addressing complex global challenges without losing touch with individual human experience.
Read the full video transcript
what have you learned since becoming
closer to Jordan Peterson um so I love
Jordan Jordan's great
um
Jordan's constant willingness to delve
is uh is fascinating well we got along
the first time we met I mean he when I
met him he was way less F fam when we
met I don't know was like 2015 2016
maybe this is right when Bill c16 was
happening we were both speaking at uh
some event in Canada and the first thing
that we did is we started exchanging
book lists and so um yeah I there there
are a bunch of Concepts I've learned
from Jordan I mean I think that that his
read on uh the original structure of
meaning in the world in maps of meaning
is fantastic I've used it in sort of
biblical analysis of my own uh again
Jordan is somebody who really really
likes to search that that's the thing
and it's always an inspiration to watch
him kind of go search for for those
answers even if I don't always agree
with his answers I think they're really
interesting what about the pivot that
he's made obviously since coming to DW
it seems like he's been talking more
about politics and also more about
religion at the same time there's a bit
of me and I think a lot of my audience
John's been on the show three times now
uh that really misses the um spit and
sword just sort of down to earth less
symbolic stuff um I wonder I would love
to see him Arc back around I agree with
a lot of that I mean I think that that's
where Jordan that is is I think he's the
best in the world with that I think he's
literally the best in the world me too I
think that a lot of the sort of
recent uh vacuum that has sucked in
other voices for whether it be
masculinity men's movement personal
development uh has been laid at the feet
of Jordan's moving on abandonment of
that for other stuff whether it be
politics whether it be religion I I
think there's some truth to that I think
also because Jordan has been so I mean
it's been a wild trajectory for Jordan I
think because of that as you you know
experience more kind of power in the
universe as as you have a bigger and
bigger following I think Jordan feels a
responsibility to delve into these areas
and but I I agree I think that a lot of
his best stuff is the kind of 12 Rules
from life here's the thing that you can
do this morning that's going to make
your life uh a lot better and I think
that Jordan is is going to swing back
around to that I think he's he's taking
in a lot of big ideas and I think you're
going to see him Infuse that back into
kind of the smaller more hard yeah I
think that would be very much like a I
don't know return to I would love that I
still think that's I agree with you and
I think that you know he has a new book
coming out that's sort of about analysis
of the Bible and it's great I mean
there's a bunch of stuff in there that's
fantastic and him being able to sort of
reduce that back down to like if you see
a cat pet it you know like that that
kind of stuff that that that's that's
the best stuff of Jordan and if you
watch Jordan Speak that's what's great
about Jordan watching Jordan Speak is
almost like watching a really great
magician do a track He he'll kind of do
a bunch of stuff out here and like I
don't even see how all these puzzle
pieces fit together and then he'll go
and that's bloody well God isn't it
you're like oh wow that was cool that
was a really cool trick he brings it
back into land have you changed much
since being friends with him has there
been anything that you've adjusted in in
yourself
um I think that
the Temptation toward you know advice
giving has definitely uh increased
because when you talk to Jordan he's
constantly talking about like how do you
affect people on a on a personal level I
think that there's been a weird sort of
shift in the sense that I used to do
kind of pure politics and no life advice
and now I do a little bit more life
advice and maybe slightly less politics
and he does more politics and more life
advice so maybe we're having an
nefarious influence on one another but
um it's but I you know I I I think
that again I I don't think there's a
better voice on planet Earth for kind of
the values that young men should hold in
Jordan I agree about the I I always want
to ask people about their personal
philosophies about how they approach
life I understand that after a while you
kind of need to transcend yourself and
stop being so solipsistic or
narcissistic or whatever and you need to
actually go out there and affect things
also Jordan's very intellectually
curious and I think that anybody who has
a high IQ and is intellectually curious
it's very easy to sort of get bored in
the sphere that you're in and be like I
don't want to explore like a new field
now Jordan is constantly doing that sort
of stuff but I do think he's going to
you know and I think increasingly you're
saying it he's going to he's going to
bring it back into to a lot of these
messages that are easier to digest let's
put it that way there was a Kurt vonet
quote that I came across recently that I
want to talk to you about we are what we
pretend to be so we must be careful
about what we pretend to be do you ever
worry about becoming a caricature of
yourself that there there are incentives
that align in order for you to play into
a niche that you've already carved out
basically how do you allow yourself to
change privately when the world has
expectations of you publicly and is
there a tension or a friction between
those two I mean the truth is that I
think that I'm pretty well on air who
I'm off air I think that the perception
of me uh for a wide variety of reasons
ranging from the titling of YouTube
videos to sort of how I'm perceived on
Twitter uh is is a bit different listen
Twitter as a medium tends to suck out
your vitriol and your acid and you're
not going to have a lot of not at your
best well I I yeah I mean in the at my
best is a human sure I mean I I I
struggle to think of anybody who's at
their best as a human on Twitter because
either you're it's very one-dimensional
Twitter you're either the person who's
like the self-help Guru on Twitter
you're like Adam Grant or something you
know Adam's great um or you're or you're
you know kind of in the combat mode in
Twitter uh and you know it's a mechanism
of distribution and and you see that uh
in terms of my show I think people
actually have a pretty good read on me
if they watch the show uh because I do
talk about from time to time family
stuff or I will talk about you know
deeper values again even the show tends
to be more political because it's a
daily political show if you watch if you
watch it's easy to say this but if you
watch the vast compendium of the things
that I do and I do like a bunch of
different shows then that's me like you
put all those different but every show
has to focus on sort of a different
thing so if you watch me in discussion
with Anna kasparian or something you'll
see a different side of me than you
would if I was like hard pressing on on
kamla Harris on today's show right so
those are all different facets of me um
and if you put them all together then
that's very close to what I am in in
private life uh you when I when I talk
on a show like this I I I'm not sure
that there's something radically
different I think that the questions
that are being elicited are radically
different and so that that changes it's
it's it's really funny I've mentioned
this in the context of different
political debates so I will say a thing
that if I said it on my show my audience
would be mad at me if I say it to Bill
Maher my audience is super happy with me
right so if I what's an example of that
okay so if I say I think that that
Donald Trump has a lot of personal
foibles I think that he says a lot of
dumb stuff on Truth social and I think
it doesn't help him in his race then my
audience might get mad at me for saying
that on my show I'll say like listen I
want him to win I think K Harris is
terrible I think she'll be an awful
president if Trump wants to win he needs
to stop doing dumb crap on Truth social
my audience might be a little mad at me
if I go on Bill Maher and I say listen I
think Donald Trump does a lot of stupid
crap on Truth social he really needs to
win K is gonna be a terrible president
then my entire audience is like he's
telling Bill Mah right so right they
understand that the medium is the
message in many ways exactly so I think
that that's something to keep in mind
I've I've likened it to the optical
illusion where you have two different
where you have a color and it's a color
red and it's the same exact color red
but if you put it next to you know one
color it looks purple and if you put it
next to another color then it looks more
red yeah so I think uh over time as well
the thing that I'm particularly
interested in is there are Expectations
by your audience that if you continue to
nudge those over time well this isn't
the Ben that we had previously even
within this context of the show and uh
yeah I just I I wonder about what
happens as you grow up as your
philosophical view definitely a struggle
I mean not even in terms of
philosophical viewpoint but in terms of
where you put your focus one of the
things that you know as a business one
of the things that you have to consider
is what does my audience want of me not
even in terms of viewpoint but in terms
of content for example so just to give
an example I love talking about the
Bible I know the Bible super well right
I mean in the original Hebrew uh we read
it every single week I've done it for 30
years I know I know you know the I
venture to say that I know you know the
five books of Moses at least uh as well
as anybody who's not a rabbi um and so
but does my audience want to hear my
deep read on Genesis right so like I'll
talk with Jordan about Genesis and
Jordan's wonderful and Jordan has a wide
variety of interests that he can bring
to bear and all these different things
where he's talking about religion but he
doesn't read Hebrew right I mean like I
I read Hebrew I I know all that stuff I
can translate it I know all the
commentaries on it for a thousand years
like does my audience really want me to
analyze Genesis y probably not I mean
like we tried this we had a book club uh
and the book club was you know we' read
like great works of literature so we
read mck one way yeah you were on a deck
of a ship right exactly so we did one
with Moby deck and it's like I love that
stuff right I love literat literary
analysis I read tons does my audience
desperately want my analysis Myck it
turned out not so it's like okay well
that's something that they don't want do
you ever wish that you didn't do a Daily
Show you're kind of at the mercy of
whatever happens in the pre P
didy gets arrested today guess what
we're doing five minutes on P didy
because it's important for us to I don't
know whether you cover it I didn't cover
that in the slightest um the uh the I'm
so uninterested in that I couldn't
possibly care uh and there there's a
certain level of stuff where I'm sure
the audience cares and I I can't bring
myself to care so I just won't cover it
like I'm unless it's in a funny way a d
video about the VMAs or something as
someone who thinks about ideas across a
long period of time who likes to read
classics who's reading stuff in Hebrew
there there must be a desire in you to
make a Lindy body of work yes and yet I
don't know I listened to a lot of your
show during 2020 because that was the
only way I could get daily updates on
what the hell was happening with a
global pandemic right um I don't know
how many people are going back and and
listening to May 2020 Ben episode so is
there a part of you that go like I I've
got the books and I've got the other
bits and pieces is that of uh pull
becoming more it's a it's a it's a deep
struggle it's like the thing that I want
to do
is that the thing my audience wants to
do is that something I can justify
spending you know money to actually
produce I I've done a pilot episode of
what a Biblical commentary would look
like is that something my audience wants
from me I know I I've I've done you know
one of the things that I'd love to do is
this I do think our audience would love
uh is H is something called the the
historians which is I want to sit with a
group of historians on particular topics
and basically do a round table where we
talk about like the history of World War
II I think the audience would dig that
and I think that'd be very cool and get
Neil Ferguson and get John Keegan and
get you know um Victor Davis Hansen in a
room and like just sit around a table
and do like let's start in 1933 and do
history of World War II like people
would people I think would dig that um
but you I I have those big Ideas all the
time indulge all of your personal oh my
God I mean the stuff that I'm really
interested in I if you look at my
nightstand there's nothing on Daily News
I don't put daily news on my nightstand
I mean the stuff that's on my nightstand
uh is is typically like a deep read on
the military conflict over Taiwan staits
right like is my audience deeply
invested now that may come in useful
like if China attacks Taiwan I'm going
to know a lot more than sort of the
normal commentator would on well I know
as much as somebody who's studies Z for
a living no but will I know 70% of that
sure and that's good enough you know to
for it to work but in terms of like
establishing a long-term body listen the
thing that I'm proudest of in terms of
like one product that I've created is
the right side of History which is
basically a review of Western philosophy
over the course of about 250 Pages it
was the hardest thing I've had to write
I think it was a really interesting and
cogent book and I think it has shelf
life and going to last the test of time
that's part of the problem with doing a
Daily Show you're exactly right um and
the I I wonder how much video is going
to be permanent anyway I mean that
meaning that what's the last kind of
political or philosophical video that
you've watch that wasn't made in the
last year or two uh I think that the
nature of video is kind of transitory
unless you're talking about like a movie
from 25 years ago that self-
encapsulated but a piece of non-fiction
content that like everybody knows who's
you know politically aware that that
Milton Freeman an entire series is
called free to choose has anybody ever
watched free to choose probably not so
in the non-fiction space very difficult
to create kind of qu permanent content
yeah archival as Eric calls it you
exactly so you know that that's where
books come in and that's why I'm still
interested in writing books and you know
we'll probably come out with a couple in
the next few years um but it's but it's
definitely a strong I I like talking Big
Ideas it's the thing that I'm most
interested in and sometimes the politics
of the day does not lend itself to that
and when the new cycle is boring and
when there's nothing to to talk about
sometimes that's actually when I get to
do the thing I want to do right some
some of my some of my best shows I think
are the ones that have the lowest
listenership and there was one that I
did I remember uh this one I thought was
kind of cool I did like a year and a
half ago and this was real slow and I
was talking about relative I was talking
about the connection between economics
and military power and so I there's a
really cool uh YouTube video which is
essentially a moving chart that just
shows the nature of military spending
over the last like four centuries V
versus GDP in various countries and I
was pointing out how uniquely powerful
the United States is and has been and
what that means for a western capitalist
um you know Western capitalist military
buildup and how you actually compete
with China and why China actually is is
on a pretty bad path here because their
economy will collapse and then they
won't have the ability and and so I I
like sat there and I did like a full
history of Western spending on Military
like I think that stuff's fascinating
I'm sure my some of my listeners were
probably dying you know and so every so
often I'll get to it's like 100 for you
and one for me there'll be some of trust
really is everything when it comes to
supplements a lot of Brands may say that
they're top quality but few can actually
prove it which is why I partnered with
momentous they make the highest quality
supplements on the planet they're
literally unparalleled when it comes to
rigorous third party testing what you
read on the label is what's in the
product and absolutely nothing else
three of the products that I use to
support my brain body and sleep are
Omega-3 tonat Al and magnesium l38 to
support cognitive performance optimal
hormone function and better sleep sleep
and Dr Andrew hman is the Scientific
Advisor for momenta so if you've ever
wondered what supplements he would
create or what he really uses himself
this is the answer best of all they ship
internationally and offer a 30-day money
back guarantee so if you're not sure you
can buy them try them for 29 days and if
you do not like them they will give you
your money back right now you can head
to the link in the description below or
go to Liv mous.com wisdom use the code
modern wisdom a checkout to get 20% off
everything sitewide that's L IV M ENT
us.com mods and modern
wisdom a check out thank you very much
for tuning in if you enjoyed that clip
with Ben you love the ful length 2hour
long podcast which you can watch right
here go on tap it