Hells Angels Boss Opens Up - George Christie | PBD Podcast #723

Always wanted to be an outlaw, not a criminal. What made Sonny so powerful? [music] What was his reputation? Why don't you people go home? Sonny was a very complicated man. If it wasn't Sonny's idea, it wasn't a good idea. No matter if it benefited everybody or not. If you are concerned for what these people are doing, to our great nation may provoke violent acts by us. Sonny saw the club as something that belonged to him. Other members saw themselves as part of the club. How did you maneuver your way up to that kind of power? How can you have respect without fear? I think it, you know, you got to have a little fear. The bomb they planted didn't go off. He told me, "You're going to go retrieve the bomb that didn't go off." And I said, "Why am I going to retrieve it?" I go, "I didn't make the bomb." Be an effective peacemaker, you have to be willing to go to war. That was kind of my philosophy. I was strictly for peace, which was a very unpopular position in the outlaw. How come nobody kills him? How come he lives till 83? How does he live till 83? Well, I think that I'm going to I'm going to say something here that a lot of people who don't know the Hells Angels history and perhaps are watching this. >> [music] [cheering] [music] >> Adam, what's your point? Your future looks bright. My handshake is better than anything I ever signed. Right here. >> [music] >> You are a one of one? My son's right about that. I don't think I I've ever said this before. George Christie, great to have you on. Thank you. Appreciate being here. Yes, so your story I grew up in LA, Glendale. We were talking about earlier. >> Glendale. Yes, and La Crescenta, Crescenta Valley had a lot of Mongols, Hells Angels, and one of my friends was a was part of the gang for 20 plus years. His name was Jim Padrick. He's no longer here with us. Uh and he would always tell me stories what it was like, how he got in. The fights, the wars. You guys had many of them. And >> lot of wars, a lot of history. >> A lot of history. See, a lot of war. Now, I want I want to get into it. And for you, when you when you think about the Hells Angels, a couple names come up. We hear Sonny Barger and we hear George Christie. Those are These are the two names that Of course, there's other names. I don't Yeah, the the club was, you know, built on a foundation of many people's input, but uh Yeah, that's a that's a fair assessment. Sonny Barger was my senior uh one of my uh greatest memories was when he came back from prison and I met him. I'd been in the club. I was kind of a rising uh political input in the club. Kind of create my own base and I went to Oakland uh on some unrelated business uh one of our members that was a very strong member of Ventura, Irish O'Farrell, wanted to transfer to Oakland because Sonny wanted him up there and ultimately he took Sonny's place as a leader when Sonny came down with cancer. But after the end of the conversation, Russell Baya, another Oakland heavyweight, said to me, "There's someone up the street that wants to talk to you. He'd like to meet you." And I knew who I knew it was Sonny and uh you know, it's like meeting a football star or a boxing star. We went down to Sonny's house, rode our bikes down there. He came out and greeted us and uh I spent several hours in his house talking. It was just It was an incredible experience for me. >> This is This is the first time you met him. >> This is the first time I met him. I knew about him, you know, long before I met him. I knew about him in when I was in high school. >> What year is this? This is The '78 '78, first time you met him. First time I met him in person. Maybe No, you know, actually it's probably '77. And uh I'd been hearing about him since the mid-'60s, especially after Hunter Thompson wrote that book Hells Angels. I mean, I felt like I knew him. How'd you get the book? Were you Were you in your teens when you read the book? >> was in my teens. Uh I was always a motorcycle enthusiast. Always wanted to be a outlaw. I kind of identified with the outlaw crowd. >> wanted to be an outlaw. >> Always wanted to be an outlaw, not a criminal. Not an outlaw. And uh there's a distinct difference and people get the outlaw and the criminal confused and uh I had my first experience in the mid-'50s. I was with my father and we hear this noise up the street and I look and uh it's this guy coming on a chopped Harley, has a cut-off vest on, a complete outlaw, stops at the stop sign and when he took off from that stop sign, I metaphorically jumped on the back of that bike and I knew someday I would be like that man and uh you know, it took me 10 years to get there, but uh ultimately I got a bike and uh started hanging out with independent as an independent with the question mark motorcycle club. Uh that was a club associated with the Hells Angels. It was a club associated with Hells Angels. >> Yes, and then I hung out with the Satan Slaves, another club. If you read uh uh Hunter Thompson's book, he really talks about the Satan Slaves a lot in that book because the Hells Angels actually uh were kind of impressed with the the Satan Slaves. They were kind of a unique club in San Fernando Valley and uh they were kind of the you know, sultans of San Fernando Valley, if you will. Now, what did your dad do for your dad to almost introduce you to this? What did he do for you? >> Indirectly. Well, he he was all you know, I'd start talking about motorcycles after that and he was always try to play it down. Unbeknownst to me until I got older, his my grandmother, his mother, told me he had a motorcycle and she had a standing offer of 500 bucks to anybody that push it off the Ventura Pier. It was kind of a uh inside family joke and I don't think, you know, she ever thought anybody would take her up on it, but she wanted to show that she didn't think it was appropriate for him to ride a motorcycle and for some reason he didn't want me to do it, but I did. Was he also an outlaw or no? >> No, he No, he was a former CB uh uh came you know, World War II veteran as my mom was. My dad was a CB, my mother was a Marine. Uh Both veterans of World War II and that was the birth of the outlaw bikers in the United States and perhaps the world, you know, it was exclusive to the United States and you know, now it's a worldwide phenomenon. There's outlaw motorcycle clubs everywhere. I don't think there's a continent in the world that doesn't have uh uh some 1% motorcycle club, whether it be Hells Angels, Bandidos, Outlaws, Mongols, whatever it may be. What What year was it that the whole thing got started? Is there a 1948? 1948. I call I consider that the kickoff date. And you know, the guys on the East go, "Well, it started back here." And the guys on the West Coast kind of a friendly rivalry. For me, it started in Hollister in 1948. There was a motorcycle event up there, the AMA, American Motorcycle Association, was hosting hill climbs and various races in the little town of Hollister. And uh the Pissed Off Bastards, that's the name of a bike club. Literally called Pissed Off Bastards. >> Pissed Off Bastards. Can you pull that up for him? Uh the Poobahs is what they went by. Poobahs. >> The Poobahs, the uh uh Galloping Goose, the 13 Rebels, the Boozefighters. Great names, by the way. >> Yeah, these are all veterans. These are These are guys that came back from World War II from the European and the Pacific theaters, most likely suffering from undiagnosed PTSD. Whatever uh and they felt displaced. Uh they came home, their life had moved on. Probably lost their wives, lost a lot of friends overseas and they came back and they formed these little motorcycle groups. And the American Motorcycle Association that weekend labeled them the 1% that ruined it for us wholesome riders. And those individuals at that time embraced that title and you know, the rest is kind of history, you know. We became the 1%ers and you know, ultimately 15 years later, I became part of that. Pissed Off Bastards of Bloomington. Is that correct that it says it started in Riverside? >> Yes. And San Bernardino? Yes. Okay, so I know Riverside, I know San Bernardino. What else if we were to talk about the East Coast, West Coast? What's East Coast, what's West Coast? West Coast is pretty much northern and southern California. And you know, it's interesting and I'll get onto the East Coast, but in the West Coast, there was a tremendous rivalry between all the bikers, Hells Angels, what other clubs there were in northern California, the Bay Area specifically, and then the uh southern California. There was this this unwritten rivalry. The East Coast uh has a a similar story of Detroit uh Chicago uh you know, these were where the Outlaws started. That was kind of our biggest uh uh rivalry. Uh you know, we had a war with them that still goes on today. I'm no longer a member, but the two clubs still fight. And [snorts] the ironic thing is I realized this morning when I was here, this is Broward County. >> Mhm. >> That's where the war started. Stop it. >> They killed Whiskey George and Riverboat. Uh Whiskey George and Riverboat went to the Outlaws clubhouse that on an invite. They were told by Sandy Alexander, a very powerful Hells Angel from uh New York City "Don't go to their clubhouse." And uh they went there and uh they were executed and thrown in a uh some rock quarry around here. >> Here in in New York? >> in Broward County, yes. They order came down uh from Jim Nolan, who was the leader of the Outlaws in Florida at the time. And uh ultimately, he went to prison for 50 years uh for that murder. Uh you look up Jim Nolan. Uh he uh just was released recently. And uh I know him. He knows me. You know, we've talked uh Big Jim Nolan. He's the one that killed uh Whiskey >> Well, he ordered he made the order. >> ordered he made the order. And how big of a player was Jim at the time? The biggest. >> He was the even bigger than Sonny? Oh, yeah. Well, he for the Outlaws, that's two separate clubs. For the Hells Angels and for the Outlaws, he was what Sonny Barger was for the Outlaws. >> For the Outlaws. >> Got it. But when you think about biker gangs, you hear the main name you hear is Sonny Barger. >> Hells Angels and you hear Mongols. >> Mongols. >> Of course, you got some of the other guys, but I think because the Mongols uh uh have and I mean this with all due respect, have forced their uh name down the throats of everybody. I mean, they uh had I think they had some leadership problems initially in the '70s and the '80s. I'd think that they weren't prepared. They brought uh a challenge to us and the Hells Angels rose to that occasion. I mean, uh if you look uh the Frame Up motorcycle shop uh was a tire taken in there to have worked on uh by Hells Angel member. He was a prospective member at the time and there was an explosive device. The tire was filled with dynamite. The uh valve stem actually was a pressure relief uh trigger. And when they took the uh valve stem out the tire exploded uh killed two uh killed a Mongol and it killed his 15-year-old cousin. Uh just weeks before that uh Red Bill Beard and Jingles, both Mongol officers, were killed by uh a gentleman who went to prison for it, Guy Castellano out of San Diego. So, the by night the end of '77, the war was just full on with the uh Hells Angels and the uh Mongols. For you, so going back to '68, you know about it, you read the books, you know the stories. You're an Outlaw, not a criminal. And then, are you looking at the saying, "Man, I cannot believe I'm meeting Sonny in '77." Are you already in Hells Angels? >> I am a Hells Angel member, yeah. So, you're a member. >> I'm a full patch member and I may have been vice president of Los Angeles at the time and uh a few months after that, Old Man John, who was my mentor and uh turned the club over to me. He told me his exact words were, "This is a young man's game." This is in Ventura? This is in Los Angeles. Los Angeles. So, you're not Ventura yet to be the president. >> not yet. He says, "I'm giving this to you." He goes, >> And where in LA? What part of LA? >> Glendale. Glendale >> Glendale. Literally, you're living in Glendale. >> Glendale. Our club the Hells Angel clubhouse was in Glendale. The Mongols shop, the Frame Up, was in Glendale, I believe. Not real close to the Hells Angels clubhouse, but near. And that's kind of where the the war kicked off in San Diego and in uh Glendale. So, did you live in Glendale yourself or On and off, I did. I had an apartment down there. Yeah, I had still had a a wife and a kid and I worked a lot of people don't know this. I worked for the Department of Defense. While you're part of Hells Angels? >> While I'm the leader in the Hells Angels, I had a top security clearance. I worked at Point Mugu and Port Hueneme uh at the Pacific Missile Test Center and it I owned up Santa Cruz there was a been declassified now, so I don't have a problem talking about it. There was a secret submarine surveillance system on Santa Cruz Island when we were at uh the midst of the Cold War with the Russians. And uh my job was to maintain uh that building, make sure it was always up along with other responsibilities because it was a direct line to Washington that if they saw the subs off there, subs were coming in, someone would have to make a decision in Washington. They found out that I was a president John had turned the club over to me 1978. They found out I was a president of the Los Angeles Hells Angels and they brought me in the office and they said "You can't do this. This is a compromising your top security clearance. You either go with us or you go with them because we're going to pull your security clearance if you don't resign from the Hells Angels." >> So, they gave you the ultimatum. >> Yes, and I I decided to stay with the Hells Angels. Why was that? Why'd you choose Hells Angels? >> Because I was an Outlaw. >> [laughter] >> Cuz you're an Outlaw. Now, let me ask you, while you're doing DOD and you have secret clearance and you're leader at Hells Angels are you using any of the access and information to help advance Hells Angels? >> No, but I certainly used my I was an 0311 rifleman and I took uh my tactical uh experience uh tactical training and applied it in the Outlaw motorcycle culture. How did they recruit you? What was the original way somebody recruited you? Into the Hells Angels? >> Yes. Uh Old Man John I met Old Man John up on Kern River in the mid early '70s. And apparently, he saw something in me. Uh the Saints Slaves and the Question Marks introduced me to John. He invited me to the Glendale clubhouse and uh You know, that's all right. >> just fell into it, yeah. And did they see something in you? Did they say this guy's got what it takes? We like him? Like what was the >> I I think John, you know, uh not trying to uh shine the light too much on me, but I think John saw something in me. He saw the discipline. John being ex-military himself uh understood that we were running in a group of a bunch of undisciplined guys that needed, you know, somebody to be the patriarch, if you will, of this little clan of Hells Angels in Los Angeles. >> So, uh At the time when you got recruited, what year is it? '74, '70 >> '75. >> Okay, so '75 you get recruited. How old were you at '75? >> as a >> I was uh mid-20s. >> Mid-20s. So, let's say 25 years old in '75. How did you go from a rookie guy coming on board to '78 going to Sonny's place, you you rode up with the with with bikes and motorcycles you hit up to him, and then all of a sudden to be the number two guy, consigliere, president in Ventura County. How does that happen? How did you maneuver your way up to that kind of power? Well, maybe the Forrest Gump of the Outlaw world. I just kind of >> not what I hear about you. They tell me you're the intellectual. >> Well, maybe. >> They tell me you're the strategic, you're the brains, you were the you were the guy that was extremely uh uh intentional, you know, strategic you know, like you know when you think about the original mobsters, you think about what Ben Siegel did, what Frank Costello, who was a networker, great uh at going and creating the relationship, you know, you have a uh uh Lucky, who was more the visionary, what he saw he can do. But then there was Meyer Lansky. Meyer Lansky was like the brains, he's like, "What if we do this? And what if we do that?" So, you you've been compared to some interesting people in the Outlaw world. >> Well, you know, it's it's interesting. Uh Julian Sher wrote the book uh Hells Angels uh Angels of Death, I think it was called. And in the book uh he says, "You know, law enforcement uh perceives you as the Al Capone of Ventura." He says, "How do you the Al Capone? Yeah, he goes, "How do you take that?" And I said, "Well, I'm going to take it as a compliment." >> [laughter] >> So I mean, so funny. What else could you do, you know? I'm honored. Thank you so much for this compliment. >> yeah, yeah. So, uh you know, uh that's the book there uh Inside the Bikers' Global Criminal Empires. Uh they're investigative reporters from Canada. And uh he you know, he came to the house. He was very pensive. He says, "I want to interview you." And I I had permission from the club I could do any interviews I wanted. I said, "If you want to interview me, you have to come to the house." At that time, how powerful are you? Probably at the peak of my power. Uh Really? So, this is early 2000s. Early to mid-2000s. >> 2002 or 2003. Uh we just had the shootout at Laughlin in the casino at Harrah's casino. And I thought it was kind of ballsy of him, you know. And I did it uh I was being kind of a smart ass. I go, "You want to interview me, Julian?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "Well, you'll have to come to my house." And I didn't think he'd come. And he came. And uh he actually came and he when the book came out, he brought me a book. And uh he he signed it Julian Sher, and he put, "To my favorite angel of death." >> [laughter] >> So, I don't know whether that was a compliment. >> you feel he was nervous, or did you feel he was poised and confident? >> think he he was pensive, and then I think he became relaxed. At that time, I was living uh in a house that had been in my family for 100 years. It'd been my grandfather had bought it when he came from Greece. So, you're not living a lavish lifestyle. >> No, I mean I lived in the same house. It It was But it was very uh unique. It was like a museum within the house. And uh I think as he spent the afternoon there, he uh became very relaxed. And it was interesting. He also went to Sonny Barger's. Sonny invited him to his house. And he showed up at Sonny's house in Arizona. So, he interviewed myself in my house, and interviewed Sonny at his house. >> At this time, were you and Sonny good? Cuz I know later on >> No. No, it it We're getting ready to We're And the book is part of the problem with the falling out. >> Oh, you got to be kidding me. So, the book Okay, so now let's go back, because I want to know So, so think about it from this standpoint, because I think the the the game of power happens in politics, happens in outlaws, happens in the mob, happens in business, happens in sports. It happens everywhere, right? Where, you know, somebody you look at it. I know Sonny Franzese you know Michael Franzese is >> know I know Michael well. I was in one of prison with him. Really? I didn't know. You guys did time together? >> Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, in 1986. So, Michael would always tell me his dad said to him, "Michael, be careful with the young guys." Right. >> And he says, "Why, Dad?" He says, "Because the young guys that are coming up are one day going to be the bosses." >> Right. So, he says, "Be Be careful, because that could happen. You want to make sure they'll remember how you treated them when they had little to no power." >> And And you know, I'll add something else. Sometimes they don't care. The young guys. >> Yeah. And then you get up there, they're sitting on top. You know, they're making decisions. You know, is this guy going to help me? Is this guy going to hurt me? What should I do with this guy? And the decisions like that are made in the club. You know, the club's not really supposed to be structured like that. But people have human frailties. And you know, egos, Y'all do, right? power, whatever it may be. But Sonny and I were on great terms, and then I started I had a different vision than Sonny had for the club. And what you have to understand is back in 1989, the Feds '88, '89, the Feds sent a gentleman named Anthony Tony Tate to set Hells Angels up. He had been a Hells Angel >> his real name? Anthony Tony Tate. >> Anthony Tony Tate. And if you you look him up, you'll see uh he was FBI informant, but he was also a Hells Angel. And uh you know, Sonny Barger wound up buying into him. Got convicted [clears throat] of conspiring to commit murder with him. Went to prison for almost 4 years in Arizona. And Sonny had made a very tactical mistake. What he did was he had introduced as this Tony Tate's making his uh rise in power, he had uh introduced him as the Hells Angels of the future. And it turns out he's an FBI informant. So, Tony Tate was like a Joe Pistone, Donnie Brasco. >> Exactly. And how long was he in there? How long was he >> from the beginning. He'd been in the club right 4 years. He'd been 4 years. So, '85. Yeah. '85, '83, maybe I think '85 most likely. >> And then And then when he came, who brought him in? Did Sonny bring him in? >> Well, not really, but Sonny embraced him. God. And when Sonny embraces you, you get all the power. Yeah, absolutely. >> How How did you come up as a young guy? How did you get the power? Uh kind of just fought my way. Uh I I you know, I have a saying that in one of my books, to be an effective peacemaker, you have to be willing to go to war. And that was kind of my philosophy. I was strictly for peace, which was a very unpopular position in the outlaw bike world, because everybody's aggressive in that world, and they thrive off of egos and what not. But uh uh I you know, it's a It can be vicious. You know, the political arena is very dangerous in the Hells Angels, as it is in, you know, organized crime. Our you know, Democrats and Republicans, whatever it may be, you know. Were you more feared, respected, or liked? Well, I don't know. You know, I really really don't know. Uh I think there was >> [sighs] >> How can you have respect without fear? I think it You know, you got to have a little fear in >> do you think's more important between the three, especially in that world? Probably applies to everything else as well. Probably fear. Fear? Number one? Yeah, I think so. And I'm I'm just being honest. I I don't know if I've ever said that publicly before, but people fear you, uh it gives you the sword to wield around. Because they go, "This guy's armed with a sword, and he will use it if he has to." How did you gain fear as a reputation? Cuz you said the only way to be a peacemaker, you have to be willing to go to war. So, how do you gain that level of fear that people don't even want to go to war with >> some of it's you? uh uh anticipation. Uh some of it's legend. Uh some of it's gossip. Uh you know, anybody that does anything illegal in their right mind doesn't talk about it. And I think sometimes uh unspoken words are louder than people screaming it, you know. But how do you build that reputation, though? I mean, you got to build it, right? I mean, there's got to be because like for example, you know, you look at Trump, he's like, "If you do this, I'm going to bomb Iran." And Iran's like, "Last time he said this, he killed our number two guy." Right? So, you got to almost believe him. So, >> Right. How did you build that fear for people to say, "When George says something, he's going to follow through"? That's a hard question to answer. We like asking hard questions. >> know you do. And And you're asking them well. But uh I don't think uh uh I want to go any deeper than I You know, my daughter's an attorney. And every time I come to do a >> tells you, "Don't do it, Dad." >> Yeah, every time I come to do an interview by someone, you know, I know you like to ask the hard questions. Uh and she gives me a little pep talk and a lecture. And so, she always told me, "You know, Dad, you can always take the fifth." >> [laughter] >> But may maybe share what is already been Okay. told that is not like is going to be held against you. Like what is public information that you've already done the crime that you can share? Well, I'm going to share this with you. And I I'm Was it a crime? Perhaps it was a crime. It was more of a uh a journey and a appointment to do something. A lot of people think once you get in the Hells Angels, that you know, you're prospecting, or you know, the time when they evaluate what your worth is, doesn't end when you become a member. And when I became a member, there was a bomb planted. There was two bombs planted at the frame up. The first bomb didn't go off. And I walked in on an impromptu meeting of these gentlemen talking about conspiring to to blow that up. And I explained I'd just come out of the Marines. I worked for the DOD at the time. And I was explaining collateral damage to them. Uh I said, you know, you you put a bomb somewhere, you've got no control over the casualties. You know, it's called collateral damage. And a couple of the guys didn't even know what collateral damage was. Uh they were very offended that I told them I thought they were taking the wrong approach to this war with the Mongols. I uh left the meeting. I said, "I don't want anything to do with this, you know. This is you know, You're You're a member, and you're saying you left the meeting. >> Yeah, I said, "I don't want to talk about this." >> This is when you're still with the DOD. Yes, I'm with the DOD. I'm a Hells Angel. Yeah, wait till I'm a Hells Angel leader at the time. Or I think No, I wasn't. I was uh uh just a voted in as a member. But they didn't like the position I took. The bomb they planted didn't go off. And Old Man John called me, said, "I want you to come down here. I want to talk to you." And I went to Old Man John, and he told me, "You're going to go retrieve the bomb that didn't go off." And I said, "Well, why am I going to retrieve it?" I go, "I didn't make the bomb. I don't even know what kind of trigger mechanism's on it. I don't know anything." I said, "I'm not going to talk to those guys about it." And uh He said, "Well, some people are starting to have second thoughts about you, because you questioned uh us taking the posture of war." And he said, "You're going to go get it, and then you're going to take it to a place that we call the armory in downtown Los Angeles. Uh >> [snorts] >> this is no secret. The police found it. We had 2,000 lb of dynamite, a British anti-tank rifle, machine guns, pistols with silencers. He said, "You're going to take it. Retrieve the bomb." It was like maybe eight sticks of dynamite, or whatever it was. He said, "You're going to retrieve the bomb. You're going to take it back, and leave it there. And the guys that built it will come and dismantle it." And cuz I I wouldn't I wouldn't do it. >> [sighs] >> Uh I think acts like that uh make people realize that you know, you're sincere. I mean, I basically went over, retrieved a bomb that I didn't know what went wrong, I didn't know how it was put together, I didn't know who put it together, and retrieved it and took it back to the armory and left it. Uh You know, people start talking about stuff like that. This guy uh had the nerve to go get that bomb and get it. You know, another situation was uh we talked about the Outlaws a little bit earlier. Uh when I decided I wanted to end the war or try to end the war between the Outlaws and the Hells Angels, I showed up at Taco Bowman's uh motel room unannounced. Uh 15, 20 uh Outlaws there, and you know, they'd already killed several Hells Angels, and I just I showed up there. I said, "I'm here to talk to you about peace." And uh he just kind of shook his head. He goes, "Did you just show up here?" And uh I said, "Well, I knew you were here, and I wanted to talk to you." And I I think acts like that uh where you put the club interest before your own, it creates uh uh interest in you. Uh members will be willing to follow you. This guy go You know, he puts his money where his mouth is. >> To me, those two things would make me like you and respect you, but not fear you. Okay. Cuz you know, the >> You're not You're not giving up, are you? >> No, I'm not. [laughter] No, but And I'm And I'm saying that because you know, like if I talked to Sammy, and you hear why, you know, Sammy maybe was feared in the streets, or Leonetti would tell stories about Nicky Scarfo, and I had Leonetti on on the podcast. He flew in, and we did a interview together 6 years ago. There were some of these guys that were enforcers Right. >> that put the fear of death on other people. Well, maybe let me ask a different question. When you first met Sonny, and you said you had read about him in '68. >> All right. >> So, you kind of knew that he was a outlaw, >> guy. >> serious guy. >> What were the And you said something earlier. You said, you know, it's reputation, legends, right? Legends that people talk because when you commit a crime, you don't typically talk about it. So, you still have to find a way for people to find out what you did and how ruthless you are. There's benefit for people knowing you're a bit ruthless. >> In that world, yes. >> that world. And what about the business world? And maybe the legitimate world In the legitimate world as well, and business as well as in politics. There is no question, military, you need a little bit of that. What made Sonny so powerful? What was his reputation? Well, I think cuz of a history of missing members, members that are dead, uh uh you know, nobody uh knows. They're unsolved murders. People speculate. Uh you know, I have some inside information because uh Paul Animal Himitz uh was a very powerful Oakland Hells Angel. Uh Allegedly uh And according to Paul, when I asked him about it, uh he had hot-shotted Terry the uh for Sonny's orders, behest of Sonny. Uh Sonny didn't like him. He was jealous of him for whatever reason. Uh I think that people in the club didn't talk about it, but people knew, you know, that Sonny had ordered that Stork turned up missing. Uh There was another member, his name escapes me. Uh Allegedly had stolen uh a coin collection from Sonny. Uh you know, A member? A member, yeah. He was killed. Uh So, you know, these things happen. Uh You know, Russell Beaulieu, I mentioned him earlier. I told you he was a very powerful member. Uh Well, his expiration date came up one day. Somebody walked up to his door and shot him nine times. Uh Nobody knows really. I mean, people narrowed it down to Irish O'Farrell and uh to Serge Walton. Uh They were the One of these guys shot him is what everybody figured out. You know, despite what people think, you know, Sammy the Bull has a luxury now of uh made a deal with the government. I'm I'm not judging that. That's his business, whatever he wants to do. Uh But he has immunity now, and he talks about uh crimes he did or perhaps crimes he didn't do freely because he's got [clears throat] a deal with the government. Uh People in that world I lived in, you know, nobody knew for sure who shot uh Russell Beaulieu. Was it Irish, or or was it Serge? Who's Irish? Who's Serge? Are they They're both dead. They're both dead. Irish was murdered. Serge uh crossed Sonny, and uh I think there was a hit ordered on him. Uh I write about it in my latest book. There was a hit on him uh in prison, and uh he went to witness protection program. This is Serge. >> Serge, yeah. So, he's still alive? >> was S- No, Serge passed away a couple years ago. >> Naturally. >> Naturally, yeah. Uh Irish was murdered uh in 1989 uh right after Sonny and him were convicted of the conspiracy to kill the Outlaws that was set up by Tony Tait. >> It's It gets very convoluted and complicated. You almost need a program uh to follow these uh situations that happen. >> When you profile different leaders, you'll see different uh uh way they are. Like you'll say, "Ooh, that guy is extremely jealous. He is extremely envious if anybody else gets more attention than me. That guy is just flat-out ice cold, ruthless, okay? He's a deal maker. As long as he makes money, he's happy. He's not killing nobody. That guy is, you know, extremely brilliant, strategic, and, you know, he's the kind of guy that'll look at your face and smile, and you'll walk away saying, "I just had a great meeting with Bobby." 30 minutes later, you're dead. He shoots you in the head, right? So, what was Sonny? What was his profile? Because you've spent a lot of time with him. Yeah, you know, Sonny is a very complicated man. Uh I'm I'm going to give you an example of if it wasn't Sonny's idea, it wasn't a good idea. No matter if it benefited everybody or not. I had been trying to resolve the Nordic bike war. The Bandidos and the Hells Angels were fighting in the Scandinavian countries. And uh uh they were very well equipped, and I, you know, I know it's difficult or it can be difficult to get guns in some of the European countries. And I was how are these guys getting these rocket launchers? They're shooting rockets in each other's clubhouses. They're armed with automatic weapons, handguns, grenades, and whatnot. Well, I find out that each town has a militia. And at the end of the town, there's a armory. And the armory uh is secured with just a padlock. So, these clubs are going around popping these padlocks, and they're arming themselves. I had negotiated with Jørgen "Jønke" Lindegaard, who was He's no longer alive. He was the international leader of the Bandidos at the time. We were at odds with each other when we first started negotiating. Uh I became very close friends with him uh as as time passed, and we negotiated a peace between the Hells Angels and the Bandidos in Europe. We didn't want to We were doing it for selfish reasons. We didn't want the war to bleed into the U.S. And my position was it was just something that the feds would have loved. Uh you know, we're in the United States now killing each other. Uh I've always had suspicion at some point in time, the government is going to go after all these motorcycle clubs in Indonesia and their trademarks and whatnot. And that was one of the things that I was worried about. But I had negotiated uh with Jørgen "Jønke" Lindegaard. Jørgen "Jønke" Lindegaard and I were on uh great, you know, great terms, great relationship. And Jørgen "Jønke" Lindegaard and I made an agreement, and he had mapped out a map with a United States map, and mapped out an area, and then signed it. And he said as long as he was the leader of the Bandidos, this would be the area they wouldn't uh uh encroach on our areas. We had an area marked out. I took that map to the meeting, to officers' meeting, and Sonny was there. And uh >> [sighs] >> I petitioned him to come with me to this meeting. I said, "Let's all agree to this here in the room." It was all filled with Hells Angel presidents. I go, "Let's agree to this. Let's go meet Jørgen "Jønke" Lindegaard together with his, you know, delegation of Bandidos, and I said, 'Let's secure this.' And I go, 'This is good for the Hells Angels.' And I said, 'If Sonny Barger walks into that room with me, I go, 'They'll give me whatever we want.'" And he thought about it. He wouldn't give me an answer. And so, I shelved it. The end of the meeting came. I said, "Sonny, what are we going to do? Are you going to come?" And he goes, "You know what? I'm not going." And I said, "Why?" I go, "This benefits the Hells Angels. Why won't you go?" And he told me, he goes, "Because I just don't like them." And he was willing to keep the war going to create more conflicts. My position was I didn't want to see any more Hells Angels in court, ultimately in prison, or finally in a graveyard. And he just he didn't care. That That's the attitude Sonny had, and people knew it. And if you crossed him, you didn't know what he was going to do. Terry the Harry the Horse. I mean, these are people up store. These are people that They're still unsolved murders. It's now This stuff happened in the '70s. If you look, the decade of the '70s was very difficult for Hells Angels. There's a lot of unsolved murders still To this day, they're not solved. Tiny, the guy's 6'6", 350 lb. He vanishes into thin air. It's a tough guy to vanish. Yeah, a big guy to vanish. So, when you have acts of violence like this whether real or imagined you know, did Tiny disappear or did he What was Tiny's name? Tiny? I just knew him by Tiny. That's it. That's it. You know And he was in Hells Angels. >> was a Hells Angel. He was vice president of Rob, can you see who Tiny Hells Angel 6'6" Oakland. Oakland. Cuz there were three Tinys in the Hells Angels. So Go to images. Tiny Walters? Yep. Is it Tiny Walters? >> that's him. 6'6" famously vanished after the 1969 film Hells Angels '69. Can you pull up his image, Rob? See what he looks like. He fell on one of the uh Oakland protesters when Sonny and the Oakland Hells Angels went to disrupt the Vietnam peace march. Tiny fell on one of the There he is right there in the lower left-hand corner. There he is. He fell on one of the Oakland police officers and broke his leg. He didn't do it intentionally. It was just That's how >> how big he was. Yeah. So, he disappears. big he was. Okay. >> disappears. So, Sonny, can you pull up Sonny's picture so we can see what he looks like? Sonny lived a full life. He died at 83. It's not like he Yeah, that's Sonny right there. Born October 8th, uh 1938. Uh so, the first time you meet him when you roll up to his place, 1978, you've been there now for uh 4 years. You've been a member. And when you walk up to him, see him for the first time, what was he talking to you about? What was your impression of him? Were you impressed? Were you like, "Oh my god, I can't believe I'm meeting my hero." We talked about the war with the Mongols. >> Okay. Talked about my political rise. He uh He had a interesting philosophy. We Not that particular day, but in a future date, we started talking about members and uh he said, "You had a pretty good run here, George." He goes, "You know, you get You came a long way fast." And he goes, "You know, a lot of these guys He goes, they come here and he goes, I let them burn themselves out." He goes, uh "They just fill her for us." And I said, "Well, you know, I said, I don't really want to take that posture about a brother." And that was how he saw people. He didn't care. You know, people were expendable to him, and it's you know, it's obvious by the things that happened. Tiny was a He was part of Hells Angels '69, that movie. Terry the was very popular in that movie Hells Angels '69. >> [snorts] >> Terry the was a very flamboyant and he kind of stole the show in Hells Angels '69. And he wound up with a hot shot. You know what a hot shot is? Hot shot, if somebody has a propensity to use narcotics, like to shoot them intravenously, you can mix up a special concoction and they shoot themselves with it and it like collapses their lungs and they they wind up uh OD'ing is what they do. And that's how Tiny died. Animal, I got off track. Paul Animal Hibbits and I, he confessed to me in 19 probably '77 or '78 that he uh he was there when the hot shot was given to Terry. He was there present when it was given. >> was present. Yeah. And Who gave it to him? Was it coming a shot coming from Sonny? Well, it came from Sonny. Sonny wasn't there. He sent over Animal, and Animal never told me who his accomplice accomplice was. I was told later that it was Bobby Dirt that had assisted him. You guys know how to pick names. Yeah, we got some names. Legit names. And you know, I want to tell you a funny story on and I'll get back on this. In court in 2002 uh Is that Bobby Dirt? >> Bobby the Dirt. Uh in 2002 uh a judge, Superior Court Judge of Ventura, ruled that it was perfectly realistic to think that Hells Angels only went by monikers. Because the district attorney was saying, "This is I want to know their exact names." I said, "I don't know his name." [laughter] You know, and Can you imagine? But what's your name, by the way? I honestly it's I forgot my own name. I just know his. And And how convenient. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> In the military, we used to call each other by our last name. When I was in the army, it was not Like you would talk to Mendoza, I'm like, "What What's your first name?" We don't even know your first name. It's always last name. Like David Jones, Mendoza, Tucker. It was always a the last name we'd go by. So, you meet him the first time, '78. For how long did you guys have a good relationship together? >> [sighs] >> It was on and off. The first time I defied him was I want to say early '80s. And uh he had gotten mad. He had petitioned me to go talk to a group of guys. He wanted a guy back in the club that had been pushed out, a gentleman by the name of Rotten Richard. There's another >> Rotten Richard. Rotten Richard. And he He wanted him back in the club, and Sonny sent me as an emissary to go talk to this group of people. And it's kind of has a ironic ending at the meeting. We have this big meeting, and the guys say, "He'll never ever be back in the Hells Angels, ever." And Sonny publicly is starting People are starting to publicly argue with Sonny, which I think that's something that didn't happen a lot. And Sonny said, "Well, you know what, man? You guys are making a big mistake because he's a good dude." And these guys said, "No, he's rotten." >> [snorts] >> That's why he got the name Rotten Richard, and they didn't want him back in the club. He had been involved in a double homicide at a Hells Angel clubhouse. Killing members. Uh these were two gentlemen that came from either Georgia or Texas, I can't remember. And they wanted to become Hells Angels. And we used to have what we called the acid test. You give people LSD. And They'll talk. They'll talk. See how they hold their mud. And one of the guys went over the deep end, and they were trying to restrain him. They killed him accidentally. And uh So, what did they do with his partner, you know? And uh order came down, "Well, one guy's got to go, the other guy's got to go." They wound up killing two Hells Angels. There was a gentleman named Whispering Bill Pfeifer that uh had throat cancer. And he wound up arrested for something unrelated along with his son. And he said, "How'd you like to solve a couple of murders?" And he directed them to go to George "Baby Huey" Weatheron's house and his ranch. And he said, "Check the well. At the bottom of the well, you're going to find two bodies." And they were the gentlemen that got killed at the clubhouse and then taken and buried in this burial ground, I think is how they described it. Now, you talk about the Mongols earlier. What started the conflict with the Mongols? One of the people You had Whispering Bill Pfeifer, but you had an additional informant, Chester Green. He was a Hells Angel as well. He gets kicked out of the club for testifying against other members. That's You cannot do that. the golden rule. Instead of going into the witness protection program like Whispering Bill did, he goes down to Long Beach and becomes a Mongol. And that was part of the problem between the Hells Angels and the Mongols. The cops always say it started over the California bottom rocker. That was just part of the problem. You know, you've got uh Chester Green, former Hells Angel Bay Area member, who testified against the Hells Angels now as a Mongol member. You've got a Bud Green, his brother, runs off with a Hells Angels Chester right there, runs off with a uh Hells Angels ex-wife. That's never good. >> That's never good. And uh So, he gets killed? No, he he winds up the first night we had a physical problem with the Mongols the Hells Angels and Bud Green see each other. Uh never never said a word the uh one the Hells Angel hits Bud Green a fight breaks out and it's uh 60 Hells Angels fighting excuse me 60 Mongols fighting nine Hells Angels. We got in this fight. The reason they had such a accurate count is one of the Hells Angels with us is also a government informant. So, his handlers were at that fight. God. And they reported 60 to nine. Yes. And what they had to make a split decision. Do we intercede and blow the cover or do we let them fight it out? And they just they chose to let them fight it out. >> Anybody get killed or >> No. The police rookie cop came into the middle of the fight with a six-shot revolver and I remember looking at his gun. I was there. I remember looking at his gun and I'm thinking he's only got six shots. >> [laughter] >> But I don't think 60 63 of us will make it. >> Yeah, but I I I he broke up the fight. And uh pretty brave police officer. I mean, you here you got This is what city? This is where >> This is in Orange County. What part? Where in Orange County? >> don't know. It was at the like Great Western Exhibit. One of these these places. And what was going on was a new event was were starting. They were called swap meets. And that's what it was. It was a bike swap meet, you know, which I thought was a terrible idea because they have these bands. They have all these motorcycle parts on the floor and they're selling beer. And everybody's bringing in whiskey and pouring whiskey into their beer. It was just a recipe Yeah, it was a recipe for disaster, you know. And it was. >> so is this is this where you're seeing at what point are you like I don't know if I like the Sunny guy and I don't know if you know I can align with them. And you guys have two different ways of doing things. You you going to you kind of want to make it, you know, an independent decentralized way of running. He wants to run it like an empire. >> Yeah. Let let me tell you something. You said something really interesting, you know. I never really made up my mind. You know, sometimes I loved him. Sometimes I hated him. You know, he was like family to me. He was a mentor to me. Uh I didn't agree with him. You know, him him and I got in an argument one time and he told me because you know what George goes I burn every bridge I cross. And I said >> said that? Yeah, he told me that. He said I burn every bridge I cross. And I said, well, you know, as a military man and an ex-Department of Defense worker, I said I think I would leave at least one bridge for supplies or for retreat depending on the situation. And he said, no, I don't care. And I think ultimately >> [sighs] >> I I think Sunny care Sunny saw the club as something that belonged to him. Mhm. Other members saw themselves as part of a club. And I think that's a distinction as leaders Sunny didn't make that distinction. This club was his. Uh as far as he was concerned Terry the uh outshines him in a movie. Give him a hot shot, you know. Get rid of that guy. >> That's unbelievable though. Yeah, it is, but it's the truth, you know. >> Was he was he a gambler? Was he a drinker? Was he a womanizer? Which one What what was What was his >> I I think he had a >> What was his >> He had a weakness for women, but he didn't chase women. I never saw him chasing women, but uh I'll tell you a little story. He was taken to uh an underground nightclub in the Bay Area where there was live sex acts being performed. And uh he fell in love with the the star of the show. Uh So, uh I've been warned not to talk about her uh So, there's a live performance going on. >> Yeah, he falls in love with the the girl. You know who John McAfee is? The guy from McAfee Antivirus. >> John McAfee, sure. Yeah, he's he's he died in Spain in prison. >> died in Spain. Do you know his latest wife? How he fell in love with his wife? Do you know this I have no idea, but I'll bet you're going to enlighten me right now. >> If I tell you the story, you will not I don't even know if I want to tell this story. Rob, do you know this story or no? You're shaking your head like you know this story. >> Yeah, I What's the story, Rob? The hammocks? So, he goes he he he pays her as a prostitute to please him. And he walks out he says, this is the greatest I says they asked him said, when did you know you were going to marry her? He says, I've never met anybody that gave me as good of a BJ as as she did. That's when I knew she was my wife. So, you're saying to me Sunny was kind of like a John McAfee. >> Perhaps. You know, I'm going to tell you this. He did wind up marrying that girl. Stop it. No, he did wind up marrying that >> he kill the other guy that was girl. performing? Uh I I don't know what happened to him. But he did marry the girl. >> Wow. They moved to Arizona together. And it was revealed in I'm going to say 2002 or 2003. Not only was Sunny and her estranged ultimately. >> Is this Z? Is this This is not Z. This is Noelle. I know Noelle as well. Okay. >> I've read about her. She was a paid FBI informant. Noelle was? >> Yes. >> So, was Z? Well, I I think Z was, but I don't have proof. I have a I have my gut. So, wait. Noelle is the one that's doing live performance and was a informant? >> Yeah. Well, later she became an informant. She was getting paid a thousand dollars a week to give information to the FBI. >> Wow. He had no clue. >> He had no clue. Well, I I hope he didn't. So, maybe he did and he was >> knows? You know, I mean >> Was he an informant or no himself? >> Well, you know, nobody There's people that speculate now and I think it's unfair to do that. He's not here. Uh I don't you know, there are people out there that say that he did inappropriate things. >> what are you doing there with Tony Robbins event to the right? There is no affiliation between the two. It did There may be. And we may uncover it right now. No, but what is that her? Yes, sir. That's Noelle in the middle. Yeah. Okay. So, she's very attractive. And this was who This was his his wife? Yes. So, they get married. Yes. And you met Noelle. Uh yes. How was she to you when you meet her? Very cordial. But you know, you have to understand uh there's a rule, you know, and you mess with somebody's lady in the Hells Angels you get not only kicked out. God only knows what else happens. And you know, I I was a fellow was the one that said it. He said he made a comment you know, he said there's only a couple of hundred women you can't chase in the United States. He goes, it's not that hard. And then somebody said, maybe they should wear a black armband. >> [laughter] >> What a great line though. You know, you got a hundred women to choose from. Just leave these 200 alone. Yeah. So. You know. Sunny uh There was an a woman I can't think of her name. It's the Phoenix magazine. She did a very provocative story. Sunny Sunny had her Sunny wiped attention, you know. Him and I got in a big argument one time. He did an interview in Rolling Stone magazine. Unbeknownst to him uh Rolling Stone magazine really didn't like the Hells Angels after the Altamont incident. And he did this story in Rolling Stone very provocative about murders. There you go. 1972. Well, no, this is a 1979 uh Masters of Menace. Michael Douglas is on the cover if I recall correctly. Uh mind's not as sharp as it used to be, but I uh it Masters of Menace and it's uh you know. Is that it? >> That's it. >> 79. >> Masters of Menace 1979. >> This infamous gang has traded its colors and cycles for dark suits and Lincoln Continentals. What did it mean by that? >> I never drove a Continental. I drove a Cadillac. You did? >> [laughter] >> I'd rather have a Cadillac than a Continental. There you go. Yeah, any day of the week. Uh Eldorado. Oh, thank you. >> [laughter] >> You know, he did that article and he did it without permission of the club and you know, I this is one of the first times I confronted him in the meeting. I said, you know, Ralph, I said if you would have followed protocol and brought it up in the meeting here, I go you would have realized he didn't read Rolling Stone magazine. I said you would have realized that since Altamont uh there's been a series of negative uh you know, stories from these Rolling Stone investigating >> Ralph? >> reporters. >> I'm sorry. That's Sunny's name. That's what I called him. >> that his real name? >> That's what I called him. >> That's his real name. That's his real name. Hey, Ralph. And and you know, How long did it take until you guys had that kind of a relationship? You meet him 78. When did you guys become super close? >> Probably in 1982 when he said I'm dying of cancer. And he goes, I want you and Irish to take over. And Irish and Irish was a Los Angeles Hells Angel. Now, Irish was now a very powerful Oakland Hells Angel who took Sonny's place. So, Irish and I had a special relationship that if Sonny maybe had done a little bit more vetting, he would have understood our relationship. We were very close. And we Irish and I had an inside joke that Sonny was so big and so popular that it took two of us to replace him. Because he turned over, he said, "George, you and Irish are going to do the interviews from now on. They'll cut my voice box out. I'm not going to be able to communicate. You know he had cancer, correct?" They They cut out his voice box, and he had to learn to talk again. How bad was it? They didn't think he was going to make it. But was he able to communicate? >> did, yeah. He yelled at me more than once with that voice box. He placed his thumb over the box, and he he could generate you know, certainly mechanical voice, but to me sounded like Sonny's voice. It was still sounded like Sonny's voice. I knew Sonny's voice. >> Commanding. It was very commanding uh and he would just hit the veins in his neck would pop out from straining, and uh I think you can uh There's some stuff on the internet you can hear him. And he very seldom did interviews after that. I talked him into doing a interview in uh 2000 No, 1988 or '89 called In Search of the Hells Angels, and Sonny and I were the hosts of this show. It's uh We hadn't done a a big TV show in a long time, and we were on the show. Hunter Thompson was on the show. Uh And uh When we set out to create a shoe that blends comfort, function, [music] and luxury, we had the choice to make it fast. We had the choice to make it cheap. We chose neither. Instead, we [music] chose Tuscan, Italy. We chose true Italian craftsmanship, each pair touched by 50 [music] skilled hands. We chose patience, spending 2 years perfecting every detail, and we chose the finest [music] quality at every step. Introducing the Future Looks Bright collection. Not rushed, not disposable, not ordinary. Rather, intentional, luxurious, timeless. There's Sonny right there talking, and uh Which show is this? This is In Search of the Hells Angels, I think. Let me see it, Rob. Yeah, you're going to get him. You know, we're talking about Rocky advertising their clothing. Here's his voice box. And then I had in their book that helped us feed us, but I don't have any one big thing that makes me a lot of money. Walker. I've a lot of those things that make >> packs a day. that make me a fairly And then became an advocate for non-smoking. After this after the How dramatically did he change after he got cancer? Did he change? Did he become softer? Did he become more gentle? Did he become more No, he seemed like he hadn't changed a damn bit. I'll tell you the tenacity on this guy. You figure he comes back from prison in '94 maybe, '92. I can't remember exactly. Uh he does 4 years. He was back to Oakland, and he's I want to do this. I want to do this. I want to do this. He gets shut down because what you have to understand, here's the guy that how good is his judgment? He's the guy that uh uh said Tony Tait was the Hells Angels of the future, and he decimated you know, the Oakland charter. Uh Chico goes to jail for 40 years. Kenny Owens goes to jail for 41 years. Uh Crusey does 18 years, gets deported as soon as he gets out. So, you have all these things that impacted the charter because Sonny endorsed somebody. And you know, perhaps it's not fair for me uh uh to lay it out that way, but that's the facts, and that's the truth. But he packs up and goes to Arizona and starts over. This guy's 70 years old, and he packs up, goes to Arizona, makes the Dirty Dozen, turns the Dirty Dozen uh into Hells Angels. So, now he's got a complete state that he's completely dominant of, and uh Does he take Noel with him, or is he with Zee at this point? >> takes Noel with him. And How loyal did Noel stay to him? Well, she took a thousand dollars a week from the FBI, almost. I'm talking loyal like other men, like you know, >> Oh, I think she was loyal She was loyal to him. Yeah, I think she was absolutely loyal. I mean, that's respect. At least she was loyal. That's good. >> Yeah. So, but while she >> Except for the thousand dollars a week. >> week from the FBI. >> Yeah. So, when So, when Noel's going through that, and he's going through some If he's doing so much harm to everybody, how come nobody kills him? How come he lived till he 83? How does he live till he 83? Well, I think that I'm going to I'm going to say something here that a lot of people will know the Hells Angels history and perhaps are watching this, "Well, that's bullshit." But it's not When I was in Spain, uh I was told that he was this close to getting voted out of the club for all of his antics over the years. And I'm not supposed to talk to anybody in the Hells Angels. I'm out bad. I'm at odds with them. Uh they're not allowed to talk to me, but I continue to get correspondence from Hells Angels. They ask me my opinion of things, and what do you think about this? Do you think we ought to do that? And they wrote me and said, "We're going to kick Sonny Barger out of the club. What do you think?" And my response to them, whether it impacted them or didn't impact them, my response to them was, "That's the stupidest thing you guys could ever do." I go, "Here's a guy you followed for 63 years, and now you're going to kick him out of the club because you think he's a clown?" I go, "What kind of message is that to the outlaw bike culture?" I go, "Sit on your hands, man, and just let it go, and don't give him a free reign." And I you know, that's what they ultimately did. Did it have anything to do with George Christie? I doubt it. But I think >> why didn't nobody kill him, though? I don't know. Maybe they were afraid. Uh maybe uh Was he >> know, killing you know, saying that's >> that that's a very >> And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but that's a cavalier statement. Why didn't somebody just kill him? I Well, if you think about like Paul Castellano would make the money, and he would keep the money. Right. >> And then they're like, "Well, why aren't you sharing the >> don't we get rid You're living in a white house, but we got So, you know, do you like he in business, it's like somebody saying, "Why are you keeping 100% equity to company, and why are you not sharing the equity with Why are we not able to have a piece of this, right?" So, to me, was he at least a guy that took care of people financially? Was he a guy that Sonny? Sonny. >> I don't think so. Really? >> don't believe so. Uh But look, you know, what you're saying is is very valid. But why did Paul Castellano wind up dead in front of Sparks Steak House? There's one reason why, and only one reason. John Gotti. Cuz John Gotti had the balls to do it. And imagine failing at killing John Excuse me, Paul Castellano. Uh same thing with Sonny. Somebody goes to Arizona to Sonny's house, and they fail killing him. I mean, you know, that's that's a pretty heavy uh If you fail? If you fail. >> But I mean, if you're professional, you're not going to fail. You know, if you're in that space, you're not going to fail. Because you guys were good at explosives. You guys were your the the It was a very different uh uh methods you guys By the way, how did you guys make money? What was the business model of making money in Hells Angels? >> Well, look, my position has always been Let me Let me back up. The government's position has always been the Hells Angels are a criminal organization. My position has always been the Hells Angels are not a criminal organization, but I will concede it's an organization with criminals in it. Now, some of the guys are so greedy that they've got these little side things going, and they don't share them with the general membership. They want the money for themselves. Kenny Owens and I were friends. Kenny Owens went to prison for 41 years. He was a crank cooker. I In 1986, I was indicted by the FBI. They said I ordered somebody's murder, and it was a government sting. Uh Ultimately, I spent a year in federal prison. Ultimately, Barry Tarlow, you know, got me not a not guilty, >> [snorts] >> and I beat I beat the government, which is very difficult to do. They got what, a 98% conviction rate. And I I think that I lost my train of thought. I asked you a question, how did you guys make money? >> Yeah, okay. So, so what happens is people doing their little things uh don't share it with people. So, I go to Kenny Owens, and I say, "Kenny, I got a big bill coming up." This is an emissary goes to him cuz I'm in jail. And I said, "Can you give me $10,000 to apply to my legal fees?" And he goes, "George, I'd love to help you out, but I'm broke." And this is the message that comes back to me. So, I don't know, 6 months later, 3 months later, I don't know, it's not very long, the feds raid his house, he's got $3 million and 30 lb of crank. So, it was funny and ironic is he gets out of prison, he gets sentenced to 41 years, he does like 26 years, 27 years, and the end of the 2008 or whatever, he gets out, he gets paroled out. And he's not allowed to be around the club, but if you bring your motorcycle to him cuz he's got a motorcycle shop, you can take your motorcycle, the government can't deny him from making a living. So, I ride up there, I take my motorcycle there and have him do some electrical work on it. And uh he looks at me and I look at him, haven't seen him in years. He goes, "About that $10,000, George." [laughter] And it was you know, that's the first thing he said to me. We laughed about it and uh But it was that the way it was or were there guys that would go out of their way to help you out? Well, there's a lot of guys that helped me out. >> They did help you out. >> Yeah, and I think uh What was the business model? Like Like I read one of the stories, like this guy named Josh Adams, you know, the 23-year-old, the airman who had the 700,000 volume in Vicodin pills and I don't know what it was in the I think it was closer to a million. Million pills. >> Yeah. What is that story about? Well, my son and his friends uh had a [clears throat] friend that became a an airman. And his job was he worked in the pharmacy. And he had complete control over the ordering, the distribution, uh and my son, Lil George, rest in peace, he's no longer with us, uh Sorry to hear. Yeah, yeah, yeah, great kid. >> Long time ago? Uh 10 years ago. Uh third He was 39 at the time. Uh Was he in the life or no, he didn't go in Oh, he was a Hells Angel. He was a Hells Angel too. >> He was a Hells Angel. He him and several of the Yeah, we call them the YGs, the young guys. They were part of the new crew that joined the club in the mid '90s. They started bringing uh in Vicodin into town. And uh saturated the the market. And uh you figure what do you sell a Vicodin pill for? Uh you know, what does it cost? Uh the government paid for it all. I mean, these guys were cutting the money up. Uh This is '80s. No, this is in 2000, '99 1999, 2000. Uh So, 57 56 people 36 people got indicted. And uh including myself, uh they said we were controlling the Vicodin market in Ventura County. And of course, it was a 59-count racketeer state racketeering charge and it collapsed under its own weight. I mean, it was it was a house of cards to begin with. Uh but uh they they being my son, uh Adams, uh Rojo, Batillo, uh these various people, they were bringing the Vicodin into town. You know how they got caught? Mhm. They were looking for business records. They were doing a forensic analysis on me, and they went to my ex-wife's house to see if there were uh ledger books there of my business practices. And while they were there, they found 30,000 Vicodin in my son's wardrobe closet. Uh I didn't have a key to the house, I had no dominion over the Vicodin. Uh but they indicted my son, they indicted my wife, who was a ex-wife who was a Canadian citizen, uh in an effort to get me. They were basically holding my family hostage. At this point, are you somebody the feds are targeting to get? Like are you a big >> Yes. '97. target? >> the head of my I'm top of my game. The rumor in law enforcement is Sonny's retired in Arizona, George Christie's now uh the >> Does everybody retire in Arizona or Florida? What is it with Uh Bonanno retired Yeah, everybody What is it with Arizona? Is that where you're going? Is that where they give you annuities or is it like a benefit plan with Well, you know, they have a special gangster retirement plan >> [laughter] >> there. You know, A special gangster retirement plan. >> [snorts] >> So, you know, where is Sammy the Bull? Arizona. Okay. Yeah. Uh I'm being a smart ass. >> Yeah, no, I know you are. I know. So, so million pills, let's say at the time And you know how they got caught? They come into the house, the 30,000 pills. Yes. They come into the house, they find the 30,000. What they fail to realize, they get so excited, they stop the search for the ledger books, and they focus on the pills. In the garage is another 60,000 pills that they never discover because these guys are so inexperienced, uh and they they just end the search. They go, "We found it." You know? And but you know how they got caught? They didn't take the pills out of the bottles. And the IBM codes were on the pills. And one of the detectives went to the company, ran the codes, they go, "Oh yeah, these are all going to Andrews Air Force Base uh out in the desert." And that's how they put it all together. At the time, the pills are selling for what, $2 to $8 black market? I I think they were selling uh I'm thinking that they average they told me they were paying 50 cents a pill. You guys were paying 50 cents. >> Yeah. And you got a really good deal on it. Yeah, and they and they were uh they were selling them like you said for $5 to $10. >> Great margins, 10 times. >> Yeah, it was But then you So, So, okay. So, by the way, it's it's interesting because I'm Are you thinking about going in the pharmacy business? >> No, I actually had my best friend in the world that was a dentist that was illegally in Glendale selling Vicodin pills to my best friend's dealer. And I met with this dealer, told him he can never sell it to my friend again, and he did, and my friend died taking 50 pills from Vicodin. And why did he take 50? Uh he didn't take 50, he started off with one, led to two, led to three, and >> Okay, I got you. >> He gradually worked his way >> tolerance gets Yeah. >> Oh, oh, it was he he was he was a he was a mess. No matter how many of Bible studies and stuff we would take this guy to, he was not going to get off of it. But >> But you know, let let me let me say something. I have two hip replacements. So, I go to USC, they want to replace my hip. Okay, replace my hip. So, UCLA. UCLA. So, the uh the procedure is a success. Uh the doctor tells me it's the worst hip I ever saw. You know, I got in a bike wreck and I was already hammered from running every day. Ran I'm a jogger at that time. Uh I don't do it anymore because >> don't want to have a hip that's a it can be problematic. >> Yeah, so I get a hip replacement. What do they give me? They give me like 150 Vicodin in this big bottle. And I said, "What do I do with these?" He goes, "Anytime you feel any pain," these are exact words, "pop a couple." And so, I'm you know, I didn't know they were going to string uh uh You're right. That's where the addiction comes from. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I agree. And the the doctors didn't realize it. This guy is a professional doctor. I mean, uh he was paramount in discovering these hip replacements. He was on the cutting edge and uh of hip replacements. And I mean, here's a doctor, world-renowned, winds up going to another country and becoming the head of the hip replacement uh stuff there. Uh he doesn't know they're addicted. Nobody knew they were. They just I Did they not know or did they not care? I mean, you watch >> at the beginning you don't know, but you've known for a while that they don't know it's addicting. You know, you you go to the dentist, they give it to you nowadays. So, I'm like, you know, uh take a couple of these, take a couple of these. No, but my friend it was it was a nasty situation what happened to him. But going going back to it, how different how different was >> How different was >> these biker gangs like Hells Angels versus >> the Bonanno, the Gambino, the Colombo family? >> Who was more ruthless? >> W- Was it Was it more you guys? >> In in >> I think that the >> and >> this is where I'll say the >> I'll have to define this. >> You know, in in the mob, it's >> you know, >> violence on violence. >> You know, the violence is on other members. >> In the outlaw motorcycle club, >> it's >> other people in the culture. >> It's a little >> It's a little bit >> I think it's a little bit spread out more. >> Uh >> but this is one of the things I tell people. I >> you know, people will make comments to me, tell me their comments. >> Oh, the you know, the guy wound up getting >> killed. >> What did he do? Well, he informed on some people. >> Well, I mean, >> everybody knows what the culture is about. >> And I'm going to >> I'm going to make a comment cuz you'll probably get >> some hate mail. >> The club, they hate it when you call it gangs. >> Uh >> I mean, that's >> you know, >> you describe it any way you want, it doesn't >> uh >> Why Why is that? >> They just don't want to be called a gang, they want to be called a club. >> They want to be called a club. >> club, yeah. >> Is it because of a tax benefit? Is it because of the because of the membership? >> It's because of in a courtroom, you get in a courtroom and this gang this and this gang that and you know one of the things in my last 2011 trial and my daughter is my attorney and she was hammering the judge I you know I don't want them calling the Hells Angels a gang in front of the >> don't want or she doesn't want to? >> She doesn't want to because it makes me look bad as her client you know it paints a picture that I'm a bad guy we we hammered on that that was one of the things we didn't want the jury exposed to. The other thing which you might find really interesting and I came up with this question how many people on the jury watch Sons of Anarchy? And everybody's you know everybody's was the whole room there was like a panel of 76 jurors and they're being drawn from. Everybody raised their hand and as the jurors got interviewed the next question was do you believe that the leader knows what every individual is doing and all the orders come from the top and anybody that said yes we disqualify them you know and uh what my daughter was trying to do was set up a uh mistrial. And the judge is Judge Wu was smart enough to see what was happening and he insisted that we make a deal you know he goes look he told the US attorney and I was pretty brave for the judge he said you know you want this to be your career case and he goes it's not you don't have that kind of case and I was sitting over there kind of thinking oh man you know I'm getting getting out of this one and he looked at me and he said and you Mr. Cristly he goes God only knows what you got away with the last 40 years he goes I want you guys to go down there make an agreement in Judge Walters court and come back with a deal. We went down there we came back we got an agreement we came back and we both walked in the courtroom the prosecutors and the feds and my daughter and investigators and myself and Judge Wu said open open court he goes well he goes obviously we've got an agreement because both sides look pissed off. >> [laughter] >> And that was his uh uh >> That makes sense though. Yeah absolutely yeah that was his philosophy that if both sides were mad we probably got a decent agreement. >> What were you guys against? What was the Hells Angels against? Like for example you know how uh when I I I understand the enemy is Mongols or the enemy is this or the enemy is that but what were some values? Like were you pro America? Were you nobody messes with it cuz I know now it's international and that's all over the place but was there anything a lot of former vets so what what were you against what were you for? Certainly patriotic Americans I mean uh Trump originally himself said the Hells Angels were patriots uh you know I don't know if he believes it >> The only president that would ever say that. Yeah I mean you know and [clears throat] I I just I was amazing you know but I'm going to say something you know he went to that trial in New York do you know one of the people that showed up several times was Chuck Zito former New York Hells Angel him and Trump apparently know each other and they showed up but getting back on the subject we're patriots a lot of veterans the club was established from veterans I mean I don't think at one time there were any non-veterans in the club uh I tried to create a rule uh that never really got off the ground I wanted to make it a automatic kickout if anybody was caught dealing with any terrorist organizations like selling buying weapons narcotics information whatever it would be and uh I don't know if it went over everybody's head or if people weren't worried about it it just kind of stagnated and you know never got officially uh presented for a vote but I think you know all outlaw bike clubs are patriotic uh based in veterans ex-military So question for you sometimes I want I watch how these people come from other countries here illegally. Okay. >> And you saw like in Minnesota you know the the Somalis they're taking billions of dollars on top of billions of dollars and they're going in the streets and punking Americans okay and bullying Americans. They tried to do the George Floyd protest in Huntington Beach and I think you guys showed up I don't know if you saw that or not the biker gangs showed up yeah showed up. This was recent. Recent this is 3 years ago 4 years ago whatever the time line was Rob we can get the time to be fact and could be fact and >> was in Spain when all that took place. You were in Spain when that happened yeah. Where where I'm going with this is what what you know the mob is no longer here. It's here but it's not the way it was here in the 50s 60s yeah it's not they can't because you the business you can't how do you make money today it's easy to catch you today. Um there were families in New York that would say what what's happening in New York today? If the mob was still around it wouldn't be happening today. Cuz there was a code they would they kept the streets clean and if like you said they killed each other right you said violence on violence different than you know Mongols and and uh uh Hells Angels and different bike clubs but how do you think if today you were still in there and you're seeing America publicly going through what it's going through in Minnesota how do you think you guys would have handled it? Do you guys just stay out of it? Were there moments where you guys got involved and say hey listen we may be who we are but you don't cross the line and mess with America this is the greatest country in the was there pride like that or did you guys stay out of it? >> Well I I think there there was pride like that but you know when you start taking a political stance uh it becomes very cloudy [snorts] uh where do you draw the line? What do you do? You know I mean there are particular individuals that uh would kill for this country because they did before uh do I promote it? I don't I don't think so you know I I think that uh this is a court a a a society of checks and balances through courtrooms and uh uh you have to let the courts work their way you know why in their way I mean otherwise you can't you know it's like when I heard they were going to disband the police when I was in Spain I you know I just kind of chuckled I go oh that's great yeah disband the police and see who wants to run in the country >> [snorts] >> but you know these are hypothetical situations hypothetical answers uh ideal in facts and reality of what I can do and what I can't do and >> Maybe history maybe history to see you know what things you know what things you guys played a positive role in. Were there were there things that Hells Angels and Mongols played a positive role in? Absolutely I think if if you were to really research the history of the Ventura area and the Ventura Hells Angels I saw the Ventura Hells Angels as a benefit to the community uh the we ruled that town with an iron hand we stopped drive-by shootings in that town uh you weren't allowed to steal motorcycles in that town we had rules you know you weren't allowed to cook drugs in that town uh if you got caught cooking drugs you know it was a a problem >> Anybody? Anybody yeah including Hells Angels we had a Hells Angel that became an informant and actually wound up here in Florida in the state of Florida uh he was cooking drugs with a guy and we found out and went to the guy and the guy was so scared he told me he goes so-and-so gave me permission and I said what are you talking about I go he would not do that and he goes and I gave me permission I but I'm not allowed to talk about this uh so he threw me under the bus yeah he threw a Hells Angel under the bus he was the guy who left he got out of state he thought and that's the guy that came here yes yeah. So those are things those are things okay interesting that you play some kind of a positive role on on look I'm going to say something else this is so funny we didn't even allow bicycles to be stolen in the town we had people coming to us and the clubhouse was like a public courthouse if you will people would come there and they would decide in that room we would decide in that room who was right who was wrong and we would say okay this is how this is going to >> How was your relationship with cops? Did they like you guys >> old cops liked us the new cops said these guys need to butt out of our business this is our job >> Did you guys did you guys bite the old cops or did you just >> no no the Ventura cops were >> with some of them bite >> solid as they come. You know, I was very good friends with some of the cops and I'll tell you how I remain maintain my friendship with them is I never asked them to cross their line and they never asked me to cross my line and we had a great understanding great relationship. There's a couple of cops and I you know, I don't care what people say, you know, I got accused of being too friendly to the cops when I was leader of the club, you know, probably for two or three decades. I still they text me, you know, hey George, how you doing? Yeah, I'm okay. I mean these are guys that were the chief, the assistant chief, the the cop Brad the district attorney Michael Bradbury that came after me. I had coffee with him in Ohio once. I tried to get him on the History Channel with me. >> [laughter] >> I said let's go on the History Channel and debate, you know, and he declined at the last minute but he was entertaining the thought for a while. >> Were you guys buying politicians or no? That was not your game. Your game's not politicians, not buying cops, not buying judges. >> No, you know, we this sounds very cavalier and and egotistical. I mean we didn't have to do anything. Nobody messed with us in Ventura. Ventura was our town and you know, lock, stock, and barrel, you know, it's we came to town in 1978 and if you come to town and you look around, I could take you on a tour of the town. I could take you to the Ventura clubhouse. I could take you to the cross up on the hill where the police looked at us constantly and surveilled us and gathered information. I could take you to the I think it's the Star Lounge on Main Street where the other prominent based motorcycle club called the Orphans were in town. They were in town several years before us, probably 10 years before us. We fought it out with them on Main Street in front of the bar. The police rode up in their cars and this will give you an idea of the time frame. They had to roll their windows down by hand. You can see them in there rolling the windows down and the message to me from the Ventura police, these are the old-timers, "Don't leave anybody in the street." And rolled their windows up and they drove off and we continued fighting these guys. We fought it out with the Orphans on Main Street in Ventura. How nasty was it? It was nasty and two weeks later mysteriously their clubhouse burned down. Mysteriously. >> Yes. Wow. Stuff like that happens. >> Yeah, it does happen, you know, and spontaneous combustion of some sort. So, they come back. The police come to the fire. >> Yeah. And the fire department comes and what do they do? These guys do not like the Orphans. They sit in front of the Orphans clubhouse and smoke cigarettes and drink coffee while it burns to the ground and you can go there to this day and you can look on the walls on the back wall and you can still see the smoke and flame marks from the fire from I don't know what year it was, '78, '77, '78. >> What's the nastiest war you were a part of? Well, I you know, I I think that the war with Outlaws I mean it it was down and dirty. You know, Whiskey George and Riverboat, you know, they they get tied up, chained up, get shot in the back of the head with shotguns and probably pistols. They get thrown in the rock quarry and you know, we're calling the Outlaws this from the war. Where what happened to Riverboat and Whiskey, you know, I don't know, man, they left to go home, you know, and then they float to the surface. And it just from there it escalates and escalates and you know, I I lost count of how many people got killed over the years. It got so rough a motorcycle tank was left on one of the Outlaws front porches and it was his birthday. And this is you know, getting into some fistic sophistication here. It was his birthday. He walked out. He saw it. He thought it was a gift. He picked it up and it blew both his arms off, you know, it was it was a bomb. I mean this stuff's all documented. I'm not just making it up. I say that was the dirtiest one. I you know, I met with Taco Harry Bowman. He died in prison in 2019. He tried to get a compassionate leave. He was dying of cancer. They hated him so much they would not they wouldn't parole him. Harry Bowman, Taco. Harry Taco Bowman. Look up the United States of America versus Harry Bowman and you'll see he put a murder contract on me. Harry Bowman. Harry Bowman. He came to Ventura to kill me twice and he wound up going to jail for racketeering and he got an additional 10 years for and there's Harry right there and got an additional 10 years for ordering my murder. Did you guys ever meet like you you guys >> Yeah, I met him in person a couple >> he Is he a Is he ever a friend or no? times. Well, we had a interesting relationship. We were at war. I went to him petitioned him for peace. A very unpopular position with the Outlaws, very unpopular position with Hells Angels but I continued uh Harry Bowman went along with it dug in kind of and ultimately Spike O'Neal in the mid two mid-19 1995 '96, I don't know what year it was. Talked Bowman into backing out of the peace talks and putting a murder contract on me. They were either going to kill Sonny or me. They decided ultimately to kill me. In 2002 I received a phone call from a federal prison and it's Harry Bowman. And Taco. Taco. He calls me on the phone and he wants to ask me a favor. And he said, you know, George, he goes this is basically your second case you beat you beat that 59 count racketeering case. You beat that case in '86. He goes, I don't know what your secret is but he goes, my lawyer is interested in talking to your daughter and find out how you're fighting these cases. He said, would you be interested in helping me out? And I thought about it. I was thinking the balls on this guy. Call you. Yeah, he called me. Had put a murder contract on me, convicted of it. >> He knows that you know what >> Yeah, he knows and he you know, he said, you know, about that murder thing, man, it was you know, it wasn't personal, you know, and I said, well, I know that. I mean what else you going to say? I mean we're supposed to be tough guys, you know. But he says will you will your daughter help me and her She called Henry Gonzalez, a very prominent attorney in Florida that was working on uh Taco's appeal and they worked together on it a little bit unsuccessfully on my dad. But uh as Harry and I were talking on the phone I said, hey, before you get off the phone, Taco, I need to ask you something. He goes, oh yeah, what's that? And uh he said uh what do you want, you know, he I could tell by his voice he knew I was going to say something to him. I said, look, I know you got racketeering and you got a life sentence on that and I said, I know you got an additional 10 years for ordering my murder. I said, what are you going to do first? And he told me to go to hell. He did? Yeah, he was joking. But uh Harry Bowman, interesting guy. He was on the FBI's uh Is he dead? Is he alive? He's dead. He's dead in 2019. Yeah. He uh He ruled that club with an iron hand. He was the ultimate leader, international leader, had the the final say and that's what got him on the racketeering. Their club is structured somewhat like the mafia. Our Hells Angels charters are autonomous to each other and that's how we that's how we beat that 1979 1980 RICO case. Are you familiar with that? >> Mhm. You know who was the prosecutor? Robert Mueller. Stop it. Robert Mueller. Robert Mueller tried to tried us twice and failed and Judge Conti and him decided uh Robert Mueller. There you go, right there. Robert Mueller was prosecutor 1980 major RICO case. Last against the Hells Angels motorcycle leading to two lengthy trials that ended mistrials due to problematic government witness and defense argument. Wow. Wow. Yeah, this is this is where you were arguing against Sonny to say let's do less empire, let's do more decentralized, independent. >> Yes, exactly. >> So, we won't be held towards RICO laws. >> can't They can't racketeer. No racketeering. Right. And you know, Sonny Sonny like Look, I'm going to be candid with you. You know, somebody says, "Hey, yeah, there's Sonny Barger." Or "Hey, there's George Christie." You know, these guys are really powerful in the Hells Angels. It's it's really a ego uh blast, you know, and What kind of money are you guys making? Like are you guys making money? >> Well, I I There were times I was making money, but I got to tell you something. By the early '90s, I had a bail bonds company. I had a t-shirt company. I had a tattoo shop. I had a concert promotion business. And I was administrator for my daughter's law office. Uh I mean, I was a real entrepreneur, you know, as you are yourself. And so I found that I could make a lot more money legally without the scrutiny, but the interesting thing is the scrutiny never stopped. You know, uh they're always looking at an angle, you know, uh there was rumors floating around the internet for a while I had $35 million hidden in an offshore account and uh uh Would you mind sharing the address with the audience? >> Well, my ex-wife would like to know that as well. My [laughter] ex-wife would like to know. She actually called me. And she said, "What about this?" Uh Wow. Bold like Taco. Or maybe maybe worse. Really? >> [laughter] >> But anyways, The was Is Noel still alive? Noel? I Yeah, Noel's alive. I think Zirana is alive, Z. Sonny's uh you know, those are Sonny's uh women. I have nothing to do with Sonny. >> No, what I'm asking is that does your ex-wife, Noel, and Z, do they talk? >> no, they were not friends. They were not friends. >> no. I isolated my my ex-wife knew Z. Uh they uh It was interesting. It was like the uh kettle calling the pot black. That's how they perceived each other, if you will. And that's what I'll say on that subject. >> Who Who was What did you say once or I don't know who said it that Sonny one time hit his wife and his daughter or something like that they did Yeah, he did. Yeah, he He has a If you look it up, he's got a assault beef uh against uh uh Noel. And I believe the daughter's name was Sarah, his fortune. >> Noel's daughter or his daughter? Noel's daughter. Sonny doesn't have any uh uh children. Uh He has one sibling, a uh sister. But uh He didn't want to have kids? I don't know. I think he was pretty selfish guy. I think he he was interested in himself. Was he straight? Is he Was he Was he only into women? I think so. Okay, you think so. Well, that's good. At least you think so. That's uh I I I saw no uh No, I'm I'm just wondering because you know, if you you don't want kids, you know, it's a could be different for everybody. Uh >> Yeah, I you know, look, When when guys say >> and let me tell let me say something cuz I'm going to the the Sonny supporters are going to go, "You know, he would never be saying that you know, everything I said today, I said to Sonny's face at one time or another. You know, we had a ultimate showdown in the Oakland clubhouse. He was a a a Cave Creek member. I was a Ventura member. Uh We were resolving an issue, you know. He called 911, which is against the club rules. Uh you can certainly call 911 for an ambulance, but he called 911 and then uh the police took the call over and he made a bunch of provocative cavalier statements uh about uh Noel. Uh I took exception to that because the club took exception to that. They wanted him corralled in, if you will. And uh uh Papa was a Frisco very powerful Frisco San Francisco member. When I say Frisco, I'm talking about San Francisco. Frisco member who ultimately would get murdered by the Mongols. But he hosted a meeting between me and Sonny. And Sonny and I went in the back room. What year? Uh I'm going to say 2006, maybe seven. >> this point, there is major issues >> are no between the two of you. Yeah, this is the the final straw. We're reaching the end. And uh I said, "You're wrong." I go, "Members have been kicked out for that." I go, "You need to admit it to the club." And he basically I said, "Look, we've been arguing 2 hours." I said, "We're not getting anywhere." I said, "How about this?" I go, "How about we agree that you're going to think I'm wrong, I'm going to think you're wrong." And I said, "But let's do this. Let's go out to the There was like probably 20 presidents sitting in the other room." I said, "Let's go out to the meeting and let's tell them the issue's resolved and it's put behind us. So there's no more questions about it." And he said, "Me? Go out in the meeting?" He goes, "I'm Sonny Barger. I don't answer to anybody." And that's what he told me. And I said, "Look, Sonny, I said, you you got me all wrong, man. You think I'm after you." I said, "I'm not after you." I said, "My vision of Sonny Barger is Sonny Barger standing in the front, George Christie on your right shoulder, and Irish Al Farrell on your left shoulder." And I said, "Do you remember up in Shasta when the cops were threatened to rush the camp because somebody had ditched him on their bike and rode in the camp? And you told them that if they came in, it was going to be a goddamn riot." And I said, "That's the Sonny Barger I remember, and that's the Sonny Barger I always want to remember." Now, I may have my timeline wrong, you know. Shortly after that, that book Angels of Death came out. '07? Yeah, he told me He said Yeah, so Angels of of Death argument. So he calls me up on the phone and he said, "You know what, George? I read that book. And he goes, "You look really bad in it." And I go, "Oh, I look really bad?" And uh I said, "Like I'm trying to impress somebody?" >> [snorts] >> And I said, "Well, you know what? I go, "You don't look so good yourself." Cuz I'd read the book and whatnot. And uh he goes, "And I'm going to tell you something else." He goes, "I think you've been president too long in Ventura. And he goes, "You need to step down." And he goes, "Nobody likes you." And uh I said, "Well, you know what, man? Uh I don't know how this sounds to you, but I said, "I don't really care what you think anymore." And he hung up on me. And like a couple of kids. This is the last time I talked to him. I called him back. And I said, "Hey, Ralph. I said, "We got cut off." And he hadn't cut me off, he'd hung up on me. And I He said, "No, George. I hung" And I slammed the phone down >> [laughter] >> Just to make sure you're the last one. >> Yeah, I had to get the last word. And that's the last time we we talked. >> I When when I talk to guys from the the the the world, they'll say There's a group that will say you got kicked out, there's a group that says you quit. >> Me? Yeah. I I quit. You quit? >> I absolutely quit. How did it happen? I went to the meeting. We were fighting the Outlaws, the Mongols, the Bandidos, and the Pagans. And I said, "Look, we got wars I think at five fronts. Not to mention law enforcement. I go, "Now you guys want to fight the Vagos?" I go, "Why Why do you want to do that?" I go, "The Vagos are calling me and they're telling me, 'Hey, George, we don't want to fight you guys. What's the problem, man? We've gotten along since 1966. Why now? What's the What's the issue?" And I told the guys in the club, I go, "You know, when somebody doesn't want to fight you and you continue to push on them, that makes you a bully." And I go, "I'm not a bully. Never been a bully. I never will be a bully." And I said, "We have become the people we rebelled against." And I said, "I'm done, man." And I said, "What's going to happen next?" I said, "Read your history. What happens is when empires or cultures or whatever you However you want to describe it, run out of people to fight, they turn inward." And I go, "That's what's going to happen to us." And I said, "I don't want to be here when that happens." Took my patch off, I folded it up, I put it on the table. I said, "Anybody got anything to say?" Nobody said anything. I said, "What's my status going to be?" And they said, "Good standing." Well, you know, Sonny changed all that. They put me out to bad standing. >> Who's in that room? Who's in that room when you're saying this? Ventura Hells Angels. Sonny's not there. Ventura Hells Angels. Got it. Okay, so now uh what happens is This is 2011 or this is >> 2011. 2011. So what happens is I make this prediction. And I'm I'm going to jump ahead and I'm going to swing back. I make this prediction. Several months later, Jethro Pettigrew, the president of San Jose, gets murdered by a Vago in a Reno uh uh It's a a Reno casino. Mhm. So there's a big funeral. There's 5 to 7,000 guests there. Uh two Hells Angels uh start start arguing uh uh at the funeral. They're holding each other responsible. It was your fault Jethro got killed. No, it was your fault uh uh Steve Tausan has a just a amazing reputation as probably one of the toughest guys in the Hells Angels. He's actually killed somebody by hitting them with one punch and uh Tough guy. Yeah, very tough guy. Uh he hit a guy he was a bouncer at a bar called the Pink Poodle and he hit a guy and a one punch killed him. So, Steve Ruas and Steve Tausan are now arguing. They're both San Jose Hells Angels or Santa Cruz Hells Angels. Uh they might have broke off. I I can't remember. Uh Steve says it's your fault Jethro's dead. Steve Tausan hits Ruas. Ruas falls to the ground, pulls his gun out and shoots Steve Tausan three times. Uh murders him in front of all those witnesses. It's complete chaos going on. Uh Tausan lays there dead. The police come. Steve Ruas gets away. They continue with the uh burial. And then day or two later, they exhume uh Jethro's body because they think Steve Ruas was also killed and he's uh in the ground. That never happened. Uh ultimately three or four months later, Steve Ruas turned himself in and wound up I think he got 3 years uh for for shooting Jethro. But what happened was everything I predicted happened. And I'm not [clears throat] happy it happened. But it's a fact. It happened. And you know, history's history. You can't rewrite it. And that's the problem I had. Sonny and the small crew of Ventura guys that didn't like me wanted to rewrite history. They wanted to say they kicked me out of the club. Well, you know what? They didn't kick me out of the club. I was told I can't write a book. I was told I couldn't do the Outlaw Chronicles. I was told I can't go on A&E and do shows. Uh I've written four books. I've done I lost count of all the shows I've done. And you know what? I'm still doing what I wanted to do. >> Has anybody tried to take you out or no? I don't know. You But you haven't gotten any threats you're going out >> sure. There were some threats. People write me and you know, I mean, I had one guy stoop so low when my boy died, he wrote me and said, "You know we killed your son." Which is complete you know. He died from complications from undiagnosed uh diabetes. Uh he died in his sleep. But I said to him, I said, "You know, I said, "You only with your remarks, I go, you only reinforce the fact that my position was correct in leaving an organization. I go, "You got a problem, man. Come and come and see me. You know where I live. I live in Ventura. Uh >> You're still in Ventura? >> I'm still in Ventura. And I go out every day and I'm not challenging anybody. Uh and Hells Angels are still in Ventura? They're not as active as they were and I don't think uh and they're not going to like this, but I'm going to say it publicly. I don't think they're powerful as they were. And uh they've become a uh a footnote, perhaps. And you know what? I got no problems with you guys. But don't make one, okay? I'm just trying to live my life and I'm happily married. Uh married to a woman I've known since I was 12. Uh She was married to a friend of mine for 57 years and he passed away and uh I figured I better step in and What a crazy story. [laughter] wrap it up before anybody does. >> Stories get crazier than crazy. >> Yeah, and she was a witness in my 1986 uh trial. She was a character witness in my 1986 murder for hire trial. >> Wow. And uh she reeked nothing but havoc from the feds. They froze her bank account. They put her stored her surveillance and they were investigating uh her clients. Well, at least she got the 35 million bucks, which is >> did. She's getting She's She's getting the benefit of the 35 million. And we're living it up. >> [laughter] >> And whether real or imagined, uh so we close with that? >> [laughter] >> I like that right there. By the way, the final thing before we wrap up. How long were you in with Michael Franzese? We were I was there almost a year with him. Uh he had done that gas scam and >> The Russian thing that Yeah. >> Yeah, and he How much did he 10 billion? He was saying he was making 4 to 10 million a week. >> Yeah. Yeah, and and uh He they wanted the money back. Well, the back They wanted the money. And I think he took them on a little bit wild goose chase. I don't know if he admitted that to you when he talked about it. He took them on a wild goose chase and after about 8 months, they figured out uh you know, I think he was getting taken here in the limousine and he was staying at this motel and the the money was coming and he kept telling them it's kind of like the check's in the mail. Michael is brilliant. >> Yeah, he is >> Absolutely brilliant. >> Brilliant. When you Who else was in with you guys? >> Rosario Gambino. He was the pizza connection guy. Rosario Gambino? >> Yeah, he was the pizza connection. Uh I was in there with some uh I don't remember their names. Uh some other guys. I was in there with the guy that was the first uh name in the the infamous black book out of Vegas. He had thrown acid in somebody's face. Uh somebody that owed a debt to uh the uh casino. And he went to collect it and Is it Frank Cullotta? I don't I don't know. But he was a part of the mob? Yeah, well, he was part of Chicago. Frank Cullotta. >> Spilotro? No, but I met Tony Spilotro. Uh but I didn't uh he wasn't in jail with me. Sam Sorrentino was in jail. Uh Frank Cullotta you would have remembered. He was an ice cold >> Ice cold guy. >> He was in the movie Casino. He's the guy that >> I >> put the head in the vice. >> I know who he is. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, I know who he is. Uh So, I go to Vegas 1970 6 77. Make reservations at the Riviera Hotel. Uh Old man John tells me, "Don't stop in Vegas, man." He goes, "Keep going. We're going to Cody, Wyoming." >> Yeah. I go, "The guys I want to stop, man. They've never been there before." So, we stop in Vegas. Uh we go to the Riviera and they start hassling me about the reservations. So, I demand I said, "I'm I've paid for these. You've taken it off my credit card." I go, "We're going to stay here one way or another." And some guy shows up there. Little guy. Didn't know who it was. Didn't remember his name. And then when I saw the movie Casino I realized it was it was Tony Spilotro that they had sent down there to tell us to get out of town. He was really rude, really aggressive. He goes, "You guys need to guys need to get on those bikes and get out of town." And I said, "Look, man, no disrespect. I don't know who you are. You don't know who I am." I said, "We're going to spend the night here and then in the morning, we'll get on our bikes and we'll get out of town. I go, "We're going to Cody, Wyoming, man. I have no interest in Las Vegas." I go, "You say it's your town, it's your town." And him and I wound up spending the evening together. >> Seriously? I'm stone serious. Him and I actually very serious. >> By when did you know it's Tony Spilotro? >> And when the movie Casino came out. >> Oh, so while you're you're calling him Tony, but you don't know which Tony >> No, I don't know who he is, you know. Tony Spilotro nobody knew who he was back then. I mean, these are mob guys that you know, >> What year is this? >> 1977. >> That makes sense. >> Yeah. So, I This is a story I told at the Mob Museum. I gave a lecture at the Mob Museum once. Uh and Beautiful place, by the way. The way they've done it is incredible. >> Yeah, it's it's brilliant. >> in old Vegas, which is >> Yeah, and and that's the courthouse. >> Yeah, it's the courthouse. Yeah. Uh David Chesnoff uh handled our uh 2002 uh casino the the fight with the Mongols who was partners with I His name escapes me. The ex-mayor. Uh Yeah, Oscar Goodman. >> Oscar Goodman. He He's part of the mob. >> Good guy. Have you spent time with him? >> I I've talked talked with him a couple >> know his wife's the mayor now. times. >> I know she is. And >> He was in for 8 or 12 and she was in for 8 or 12. >> Yeah. Is she still a mayor? Can you check to see if Oscar Goodman's wife still the mayor? Maybe she's not. >> Yeah, David Chesnoff was his understudy Goodman's understudy. >> he was in Casino. He was in the movie >> Brilliant. Casino. >> Yeah, Goodman was in the He was with Spilotro. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. But uh that was exactly Joe Pesci nailed it. That's exactly how he was. You can see from the He taught me how to play craps. Uh Tony? Tony. Yeah, he says, "Let's play some craps." I I don't know how to play craps. And he goes, "Come on, I'll show you." And he was doing all these sophisticated betting. I think they were letting me win, you know. I had a bunch of dough and uh And he had his eye on one of the girls that was with us. And uh but she was with a member and uh but he was uh he was a character, man. Tony Spilotro was a character. I I did an interview with Tony Spilotro's hitman. Frank Cullotta. If you type in Frank Cullotta, yeah, that's Tony, but if you go to Frank Cullotta, Cullotta passed away 3 years ago. He texted me and then 2 months later he passed away. When Frank Cullotta came to do an interview with them, >> They killed him in the house though and then took him to the cornfield? Did he say >> Yeah, that's well, he told a lot of stories. We were together for a couple hours. But this guy when he came in, George, he comes in and Mario, my guy, Mario says, "Hey, how are you?" He says, "Why did you come in a white car?" Mario's like, "No, we didn't." He says, "No, you did. You came in a white car with three people. Where are the other three guys?" I said, "What's this guy talking about?" And he realizes they did come earlier in a white Frank was sitting outside the entire town watching every single move to see if he was safe or not. >> Well, yeah. I mean, these guys were serious about him. I mean, you know, you don't He didn't like the term rat. You know, uh Collado, he got an argument with uh >> Oh, so you know Collado? Well, I didn't really know him, but I know I know on the set of Casino somebody called him a rat. And he took him aside, apparently took him aside Put him in his place. Yeah, and said, "Don't ever call me a rat again." No, this was not a guy you felt you felt how cold he was. Well, he plays one of the hitmen they kill that guy when they're getting rid of all the And I say let me let me go back now. My first lawyer for my 18 1986 case was Norm Green and Alan Kaplan. They did the Stardust skimming case. And You're familiar with the Stardust? Yeah. Yeah. That's That's the casino. That's what >> your lawyers. The They were your lawyers. >> Yeah. And and they uh We had given Alan Kaplan a motorcycle. The Cleveland guys gave him a motorcycle. He got in a wreck and they amputated his foot. Damn. And he couldn't he was in no shape to defend me and the case was turned over to Barry Tarlow. But initially it was Norm Green and Alan Kaplan. Alan did uh uh the Pizza Connection case with Rozero Gambino who was there. So I get subpoenaed to a grand jury about Teamster money because we paid Alan uh $10,000 as a retainer and they wanted to know if it had anything to do with Teamster money. I didn't go to the grand jury. My father died unexpectedly the day I was supposed to testify to the grand jury and they excused me. The Ventura police had to call the US attorney that was asking the questions at the grand jury. Did his dad really die or is he just He isn't Yeah. And they he said, "No, his dad his dad did die." And they told me, "We'll catch you next time." I never heard back from him. Wow. George, who do people say you look like? I want you to look at this real quick. When I say this, who do people say you look like? >> I don't know. Do they say you look like anybody? I don't know. Rob, who's he look like? They they Does he not look like Jon Voight? Wow. Jon Go up to Jon Voight. Jon Voight's a good-looking man. Go to Jon Voight. Go to different pictures like straight looking at you. He I don't know. You look like >> I got a great >> Jon >> a great story. You look like Jon Voight. >> Okay. That Is that him? >> Yes or no. If she says that she's known you since 12. You look like Jon Voight. >> Okay. Well, you know People don't tell me I look like Jon Voight. That's a compliment. I'm you know, Jon is a You know, you know what movie I think about when I think about Jon Voight? Heat? Champ. Champ. Okay. Champ. Old school. That's the movie my dad and I would watch. The horses and you know So, we're having the 50th anniversary. You'll never guess who shows up in town. Who? >> Jon Voight's daughter. Which one? Angelina >> Angelina She's with Chuck Zito. Okay. So, her and Chuck and I are walking up the street >> is what year? Uh '99 or '98. 50th anniversary. Peak. She looks gorgeous. >> Yeah. So uh she's very uh uh There's Chuck and there's Chuck and Angela. So the cops are focusing on Chuck, you know. I mean, I'm They see me every day, but here's Chuck Zito. And they're like I think they're sneaking pictures of him and they're asking questions and they're starstruck with Chuck. And in between Chuck and I is Angelina Jolie and they were so excited about Chuck they didn't even pick up on who she was. >> [laughter] >> So, the next after the party's over I I tell the cops they were the gang squad guys and I go, "Man, you guys are slipping." And they go, "What do you mean?" I go, "Didn't you recognize who was in between us?" And they go, "No, who was it?" And I said, "Angelina Jolie, man." And they were just like It's what you said you said Jon Voight's daughter. Right. To the average person it's Angelina Jolie's dad. >> Dad. Okay. Well But 40 years ago it was Jon Voight. 30 years ago it was Jon Voight. Look, you Remember him in Heat? Of course. >> That is just an incredible movie and you know, Michael Mann is an incredible filmmaker. And You want one more short story? >> Sure. In 1986 '87, I beat my case. Nobody beats the feds, you know, it was a big deal, man. Michael Mann calls me up and he wants to talk to me about doing a movie about carrying the torch and my trial. And my first wife >> is the 1984 Olympics, the torch thing they did $3,000. What a funny story. Pretty good Pretty good move, huh? >> [laughter] >> It's talk about controlling the narrative. charity event I was controlling the narrative, man, you know. And and so I said my first wife Cheryl who my present wife Beverly and they were best friends. They were really good friends. >> How many wives have you had? Uh three. Okay. Yeah. I'm not Sonny holds the record, man, for the >> How many did Sonny have? Four. Sonny had four wives. >> Four wives, yeah. I'm being a smart ass now. I'm not talking about There's a great picture of uh This is you in the middle? That's me in the middle. That's Sonny after his surgery. That's Irish O'Farrell, a very imposing figure. Very. He looks like Kurt Russell. >> Yeah, he's one of the It was one of the toughest >> Zoom in a little bit? street fighters uh He was really? Yeah. Yeah. just >> So, he was a tough guy? Now, back out of the picture a little bit. You see the little eyeballs at the bottom? Yes. >> That's little George. That's [laughter] your son? That's my son little George who later became controlling the Vicodin market. He was a hell of a pharmacist. >> [laughter] >> And that's that's uh Sonny to the right. To your left. Yes. We I Irish You said Irish? Irish O'Farrell. Michael Irish O'Farrell. Michael Irish Was Irish tougher than Sonny? Yeah. Yeah. Look, do you ever heard of the Beast from the East? No. Uh Okay, now Chuck Zito and I have a difference of opinion on this. But look up Big Vinnie the Beast from the East. Big Vinnie? Yeah, Big Vinnie the Beast from the East. You have a guy that would like that name. There's Big Vinnie. Okay. Big Vinnie and Irish got in a fight. And Chuck says that the Oakland charter jumped on Big Vinnie. I was told that Irish took down Big Vinnie one single-handed. You know, they they fought in the backyard of the Oakland clubhouse. Uh that's where I was told they fought. Chuck Zito said, "No, they fought at Irish's house." Uh Vinnie died several weeks later. He had a ruptured spleen. Stop it. From the fight? >> Yeah. Well, that's what they say. Yeah. So, Irish Irish was a bad >> Destroyed him, man. Yeah, and Irish was killed by the Aryan Brotherhood which is very shady circumstances, but uh Irish and this Aryan Brotherhood guy got in an argument. They walked the the guy says, "Let's go outside and we'll snort some crank and you know, we'll put this behind us." So, Irish said, "Okay." So, Irish walked out first. The guy stabbed him in the neck three or four times. And then Irish looked at him and said, "What are you going to do now?" And he shot him four times and killed Irish there on the spot. It's You were close with Irish? Very close. So, you and would you and Irish be against Sonny? Like were you guys united? >> No, we were united with the but you know >> look like Jon Voight. >> Okay. >> we s- >> That >> I told >> Is that him? >> Yes or no. If she says that she's known >> Irish I go, "Chuck, this guy's not you since 12. turning over the club to us. >> You look like Jon Voight. >> I mean, >> Okay. Well, you know >> see what happens is somebody >> People don't tell me I look like Jon >> you know Voight. That's a compliment. I'm you gives their power up. know, Jon is a How do they get it back? >> You know, you know what movie I think >> If the people they gave it to are still about when I think about Jon Voight? >> Heat? Champ. Champ. Okay. Champ. Old alive, they're never getting their power back. They got to get rid of you. school. That's the movie my dad and I >> And uh would watch. The horses and you know >> So, >> Sonny had a >> we're >> a revelation, >> having the 50th anniversary. >> you know. I'm not going to die after all. >> You'll never guess who shows up in town. >> What am I going to do now? I'm going to >> Who? start >> Jon Voight's daughter. Which one? Angelina >> a movement to get my power back. >> Angelina >> And that's when he went to Arizona. >> She's with Chuck Zito. >> That's when he went. >> Okay. >> What >> So, her and Chuck and I >> When did Irish die? What year? >> are walking up the street >> Uh '89 or >> is what year? Uh >> it >> Okay. So, earlier on. >> '99 >> When they both went to prison. Irish was or >> 50th anniversary. Peak. She looks supposed to go to prison with him. gorgeous. >> Yeah. So >> And >> uh >> Aryan Brothers got him right before. >> she's very >> Yeah. Yeah. >> uh uh There's Chuck and there's Chuck and >> Well, George, I can talk to you for hours and every time I'm like I'm Angela. getting texts you got a meeting you got >> So a meeting. I'm like I'm just getting [laughter] more and more interested the cops are focusing on Chuck, here. >> Well, George, appreciate you for coming >> you know. I mean, I'm out. This was fantastic. >> maybe we'll talk again sometime. >> They see me every day, >> I definitely look forward to it. I >> but here's Chuck Zito. definitely look forward to it. And they're like >> This was great. Is there anything you >> I think they're sneaking pictures of him want the audience to go to? Is there a and they're asking questions and they're book? Is there anywhere you want them to starstruck with Chuck. go? >> Go to my website georgechristy.com. I got a new book >> And in between >> and a challenge coin. I created this >> Chuck and I is Angelina Jolie and they challenge coin were so excited about Chuck >> that uh >> they didn't even pick up on who she was. >> the Roman >> So, the next >> soldiers used challenge coins. >> after the party's over I I tell the cops >> I trace this back. The Roman soldiers they were the gang squad guys and I go, used to use challenge coins so they "Man, you guys are slipping." could identify themselves as being part >> And they go, "What do you mean?" I go, "Didn't you recognize who was in between of the Roman legions. us?" >> And >> And they go, "No, who was it?" And I >> I said, >> "Angelina Jolie, man." >> putting out a challenge coin with the >> And they were just like book. >> Uh >> It's what you said >> I think it's going to be my last book. >> you said Jon Voight's daughter. >> I shouldn't say that. It's going to be >> Right. To the average person it's my last book >> on as a memoir of the Hells Angels. I >> Angelina Jolie's dad. >> Dad. Okay. Well But 40 years ago it was think I said it all in this book. I worked on it 3 years. Jon Voight. 30 years ago it was Jon >> I got a phone call Voight. >> Look, >> Paul >> you >> said, "Hey, if you and Sonny are going >> Remember him in Heat? >> said hey, if you're your son you're going to resolve >> Of course. to resolve >> That is just an incredible >> your problems, you need >> your problems, you need to call him because he's not going to last much longer. I I got up, I started drinking coffee. I told Beverly I can't sleep. I got up, I went out in the front room and I started I started writing the book. And uh at the end of the book I explained it's really kind of a insight into the leadership of an out being a leader in the outlaw motorcycle world and you know, make a lot of comparisons and at the end I reveal why I decided not to come back and why I wouldn't come back. But I'm not going to tell you that. I got to wait for it. Well, I'm maybe I'll send you a book. >> appreciate that. George Thank you so much. My pleasure. Pleasure. Great having you here. Guys, take care everybody. You want to learn more, go visit his website. georgechristie.com. God bless. Bye-bye. When we set out to create a shoe that blends [music] comfort, function and luxury we had the choice to make it fast, we had the choice to make it cheap. We chose neither. Instead, we chose Tuscan Italy. We chose true Italian craftsmanship. Each pair touched by 50 skilled hands. We chose patience, spending two years perfecting [music] every detail and we chose the finest quality at every step. Introducing the Future Looks Bright collection. Not rushed not disposable [music] not ordinary. Rather intentional luxurious timeless.