HEATED Jay Dyer Vs Luis | Only the Orthodox Church Maintains Early Church Synodality

Are you stupid? Are you dumb? Because I said you cited it >> to the degree of invisible communion. I'm going to prove it to you right now. >> Are you reading on your metal glasses? >> I'm going to prove >> Why are you reading on your metagasses? This person's too stupid. >> No, I'm not dumb. I'm not stupid. You You are stupid. >> No. No. Call me titties. Call me titties. It's all good. It's all good. >> Ice is coming, dude. Ice is coming. >> The unintended consequence that you're >> you're shaking right now. So, making fun of you. >> Why should I limit myself to the trick? Yo, dude, where's your Yamaka? >> Were according to Pope St. Louis the Great. >> Yo, I could see why he retired and came back. That >> dude, all I got is a bunch of low levels. >> He's got his meta glasses up on a piece of glass. >> He's got his meta glasses. >> On a piece of glass in the middle of >> Get out of here, dude. I'm not even talking to you. My name is Jay Dyer and today we'll be debating uh the idea is the Orthodox Church the most faithful to the early church. The early church has as its normal practice cinnodality or collegiality and only the Orthodox Church maintains this principle of church governance. >> All right. All right. So Jay, what do you mean that only the Orthodox Church has this caliggoal matter when we have the same thing as Catholics? >> You don't have that. You have elements of what we have. But if you look at the structure of Acts 15, the way that the Jerusalem council happens, you'll notice that Peter does not rule that council. >> He's there with the other bishops. They have a debate. And then as you progress into the second and third century, you see cidality. That means the normal governance of the church is local senod collegiality. So you have Gangra, you have Ankaira, you have Nika and in canon six of Nika, it says that Rome has a similar jurisdictional structure to Alexandria and Antioch. >> Right. Yeah. Yeah. But here's the thing. Ozius of Cordova at that same senate who resided over Nika also resided over Sardica which said that the bishop of Rome has the authority to judge any deposed bishop anywhere else in the world and it does canon for says that canon for says that >> you understand that Rome itself now admits that the Sardic cannons are only about a retrial >> you're talking about K8 right >> yeah you know K the same document they like to appeal to a lot says that since the 3rd century Christians in the west believed in the Vatican papacy. >> No. No, it doesn't. >> It does. It doesn't. >> What's the la What's the last statement of K80? >> I I don't remember off the top of my head. >> Well, then you would know that that's the most important controversial statement. It says that the bishop of Rome did not exercise jurisdiction in the east. >> No, you know who wrote that? It was the Metropolitan that was with the cardinal at the time. I don't remember his name. >> I mean, it's paperly approved. >> It's not. We We don't this document. >> Well, so if it's not paperly approved and it doesn't matter, then why did you just cite it as a proof for the papacy? >> I I didn't site it as a proof for the papacy. >> You just did. You brought up >> No. 2 seconds ago. You said >> No, you said that. >> You said it. You just said that. >> No. No. You said that doc you brought up that document. But that same document refutes you. All right. Let's go back to >> So if it refutes me, then it's not a good proof, right? >> It against your position. >> No. I mean, it's not a good proof for you. If it refutes me, but then you also reject it for its very last paragraph. >> No, no, it's a it's treated as scholarship. It's not it's not binding to believers. >> I didn't say it was binding. I say it's publicly approved. I mean the the joint commission is under it under the >> the joint commission of the Orthodox and the Catholics that is joint approved. No pope signed K. >> That's not true. The pope later Leo has said that is a paply approved document. He said it recently. >> I don't [clears throat] I'm not sure. So you don't know that. >> Let's go back to Sardica. Okay. So if your position right is that the bishop of Rome didn't have the authority to judge um jurisdictions outside of himself when it comes to deposed bishop. Why is it that in contrast, >> you don't even know what a sort of says? I didn't even I didn't even see that. >> Canon 4. Canon 4 says >> it says a retrial in that bishop. >> That's Canon 5. That's canon 5. Canon does say canon 4 says that when a bishop is deposed, they go to Rome and Rome makes the judgment and no one is to be put in that sea until Rome makes that judgment. >> The judgment is for a retrial. He's not an autocrat. Wait, did >> say in the very last statement that it's not a universal >> jurisdiction. Let me ask you something. >> No, let me ask you because >> P8 is irrelevant right now. >> You just cited it as an argument. >> You brought it up. >> You cited it as an argument against me after I brought it up, dude. >> You You cited it. The same thing. All I said was the same document you're appealing to doesn't represent your position. >> It doesn't have to. I'm not a Roman Catholic. It's an internal critique of your position. >> It's a dialogue between the Orthodox. the Orthodox wrote it >> and it admits that the that Rome had no universal jurisdiction. It's the last paragraph. Does it say that in the last paragraph? >> I'm I haven't I haven't read it in a while. But Jay, are you saying that? >> Is it saying in the last paragraph? >> I haven't read it. I just told you. >> Okay. It's the most controversial statement. It does say that. >> Wait, Jay, real quick. You're >> Don't keep saying my name, dude. Come on. >> Okay. You're telling me we can't talk about what Julius said without talking about the clown masses of today? >> What? That's totally irrelevant to this to this. >> This is not the prompt. Clown masters have nothing to do with your prom. >> I know, but it I'm I'm saying that that comes way later. But when it came to Julius, who was at the council of Sardica, do you think he believed your ecclesiology? That's only for a course. Okay, let me ask you this. How come in Simon's church history and Socrates's church history, they both say and so does Athanasius that he reinstated Paul of Constantinople, Marcelus of Anyra, Athanasius of Alexandria, all to their >> Do you understand that Ki who did the >> Why do you keep interrupting me? Why do you do you not know that Kied says that other patriarchets did the same thing? >> No. No, >> you're saying it doesn't say that. >> Sardica doesn't appeal to that. >> Ki, I'm talking about Sardica. I'm talking about your church's interpretation of the dumb thing that you're >> of Sardica. >> Yes. Kied says that also the patriarchs in other jurisdictions had the same place as Rome. They got appealed to >> the Orthodox wrote that. >> Did Alexandria get appealed to? >> Yes, Alexander received appeals, but it wasn't it wasn't superseding the regional jurisdiction. >> You know that. >> Nor is Rome because it allows for a retrial. No, it doesn't. >> Let me ask you. Do you think Do you think you just keep changing from one thing to another? I'm trying to stick to the I'm trying to stick to the same topic. >> You cited K80 to refute me for using K8. >> I didn't cite it. Watch this. Let me >> Are you stupid? Are you dumb? Because I said you cited it because I cited it to refute me, right? >> Yes. That that doesn't represent your position. >> Are you stupid? Are you going to let me? >> It doesn't It doesn't represent my position nor your >> Does Leo site K80? >> Does Leo I'm not sure about Leo? >> You don't know because he does. He cited it recently. We did a whole stream with Alex. >> Hang on. Leo said that the dialogue at Key does represent the Roman church's attitude. Do >> you think Orthodox is a sister? Is it a sister church? >> Yes. >> How could it be a sister church in schism according to Vatican 1? >> According to Vat What do you mean? Cuz Vatican 2. Stop. >> Vatican 2. >> Vatican one. What does Vatican 2 have to do with it? >> Cuz it's the same church. Referring to the same church. >> Vatican 1 says Eastern Orthodox are out of the church because they're damn schismatics. >> So how are we a sister church? Because we lifted the excommunication off of you. >> No, you didn't. >> Yes, we did. >> How can you lift the excommunication if we still believe >> we reestablish heresies? Hang on. In Vatican, >> I can believe heresies and be a Roman Catholic. >> No. Wait, you're not a Roman Catholic? >> Are you stupid? >> What? >> Are you stupid? >> No, I'm not stupid. >> You said that I can be a sister church believing heresies. >> Mhm. To to a degree. You're still invisible communion. >> No, actually, >> you know, we have reestablished invisible communion, right? That doesn't exist. There's no such thing as reestablishing invisible community. >> Why does why does Bartholomew say? >> How can I be a schismatic? Are schismatics outside of the church? >> Yes. >> Then how can I be in the church from outside the church? >> Invisible church outside the church. >> No, you're a Protestant. >> What? >> There's an invisible church. >> How is that a Protestant doctrine? >> No, it's not. Why >> the invisible church is the key doctrineism? >> Wait, wait, wait. Why did St. Robert Bellamy teach it? >> Why did St. Why does Bartholomew That's just an appeal to authority? He's not even He's not >> My authority. Yes. Yeah, but when you're critiquing that you have you have you have a saint that believes in a Protestant doctrine. >> Okay. Why does why did Bartholomew What does Bartholomew agree with? >> He can be a heretic. >> Your patriarch can be a heretic. >> Yeah, duh. We're not papist. >> I I get that. >> You think that I'm a heretic, but I'm also in the church. That makes sense. >> Invisibly in the church. >> There's no such thing as invisible church, dude. >> You Okay, let me ask you this. When it comes to >> What does your Roman Catholic doctrine say? A canat domino. >> Are we just going to keep spamming questions? What does katad domino say? You're talking about schis. It says you have to be subject to the Roman pontis. >> And schismatics are what? Outside the church. >> Yes. >> So how am I inside the church and outside the church? >> Because you believe in the same thing via baptism. >> One heresy puts you outside the church. >> Correct. Yes. >> So you just refuted yourself. >> No, you're in to the degree of invisible communion. To the degree of invisible communion. >> You haven't proven the Protestant doctrine of invisible church yet. >> Bartholomew agrees with it. You agree with me. Follow me. Agreeing with a wrong position proves your church is invisible. >> I'm gonna prove to you I'm gonna prove it to you right now. >> Are you reading on your metes? >> I'm gonna prove >> Why are you reading on your metagasses? >> I'm gonna prove it to you. Right. When it comes to baptism, do you not do you not accept our baptisms? >> It doesn't matter. >> It does. I'm going to prove it to you. I'm going to prove it to you how you do. >> In your own doctrine, if you believe questions, you're outside the church. >> Okay. Do you accept our baptisms? >> Mystichi Corporus. >> Mystique. You know what that is? Yes. Who wrote that? >> Uh Pis the 11th >> 12th >> 12th 12th. >> Okay. The missior corporus and uh the uh Satis cognitum >> of Leo the 13th >> teach that if you deny one dogma of the Roman Catholic Church, you are outside the church. >> I agree with that. >> The Orthodox Church denies >> several of your dogmas. >> But you realize that >> so we are outside of your church >> invisible form. Yes. But you realize you accept the same principle. You accept the same principle. Let me let me Yes, you do. >> It doesn't matter if I I have a different system. It wouldn't matter if I accepted that if it's a different system. Yes, it would. Do you accept I have to have Jay? Stop. Do you accept our baptisms? >> No, >> you don't. No. >> So, you're Donatist? >> No, that's not the Donatist. Yes, it is. >> You don't even know the Don. >> Okay. Why is it Bartholomew difference between the Donatist? Watch this. Why does Bartholomew John the 10th and >> they're not? I don't care if they make a mistake. >> Okay. Okay. So you don't even know the difference between position and our position. >> Yeah. Because donatists are essentially that you have to be a sinless perfectionist in order to administer sacraments. >> Right. And how does that differ from the Athanasius position for example in the festival letters where he says that outside of the Orthodox church, the Catholic church. >> The Catholic church. >> How do they not have the Eucharist? >> He's referring to Aryans. Obviously they don't have the Eucharist. Jay, >> they would have the Eucharist as an Aryan if they had apostolic succession in your position. What? >> A validation if they're validly ordained in your position through exoperado, they still have the Eucharist. >> No, a valid ordination can't be under heresies. >> Yes, it can. You don't. That's exoperado. >> No. No. >> Yes, it is. Wait. You don't even know your position. Wait a says if the form was What's What are the things What are the three things necessary for a valid sacrament in your view? >> Uh, we're not going to go keep >> You just made a claim. So, you need to know your three your three bases. What are the three things? >> No, I'm not doing this question. made a claim that you can't back up. >> Jay, I'm trying to get back to the You made a claim and now you're stuck. >> No, I'm not stuck. Jay, >> what? You just made a stupid mistake. What does operado mean? >> I I don't know that Latin term. That's irrelevant. Sacmental doctrine, dummy. >> Hang on. Why are we jumping from topic to topic? Why are we jumping? No, you brought up >> You brought up sacraments and baptism. You >> Yes. You accept our baptism. No, we don't. So, you're a donist. >> No, we don't. That's not even the three of your patriots. You don't even know what it is. >> Okay. Why is it? Let me ask you this, right? When Paul V 6 met with the patriarch of Constantinople, that patriarch >> You think that we have a paper position? >> No. No. I'm saying that your leaders accept our baptism so long as >> I don't care because they're not popes. You don't understand that. >> Does the can grace of baptism be administered? >> You don't know your own position. Why am I going to listen to you about the grace of baptism? You can't tell me what the basic is. >> Because you're a Donatist. >> Tell me the difference between our position and donatism from our perspective. From your perspective, um, it's any valid sacrament has to be by an ordained clergy of the Orthodox Church. Donatists are sinless perfectionists. That >> So that's not Donatism. >> Huh? >> By that explanation, it's not. >> You're leaning towards you're leaning towards >> Oh, so now you've move now you move the goal post. >> You move the goalpost. You just move the goal. >> Move the goalpost. I brought up Pope Julius. You brought up all the way to what we're talking about. >> Okay. Can we go back to the topic of does the >> where do you get papacy out of this? By the way, Sardica is not the first three centuries. >> It's in the third century. >> It's after it's in the 300s. My argument >> Did you say third century? >> I said first, second, and third century. >> Okay, then that's my bad. But still, do you seriously >> say that because you're >> I didn't hear you say third century. >> I said first, second, and third century. All right, >> then that's my fault. I'm sorry. You could look it up on your medical glasses. >> I wasn't recording. But can we get Perfect. That was amazing. >> Hey folks, Jay Dyer and Dr. David Wood will collide in two different theology debates at Debate Con 9 in beautiful Orlando, Florida this October 24th and 25th. And Jay Dyer will also face off against Dr. Javad Hashmi for a third debate in the conference. Click the link in the pinned comment to get your tickets right