Health Hacks Big Pharma Doesn’t Want You To Know - Biohacking Roundtable

People of the UK and Ireland, if you are coming to see me on tour, I want to hear from you. I want to know what problems you're dealing with, your worst first date, and any questions that you've got for me. And I will be bringing some of you up on stage to talk about it. So, if you're coming to see me on tour this October, go to chris williamson.live/stories, submit them, and I might see you with a mic in front of your face very soon. Chris Williamson.tories. Everyone, tell me what peptide you're on. That's all I care about. >> Woohoo. Let's go. Which day of the week? Uh, which time of the day? Um, I I view peptides as a little bit more of like a condiment that's in your refrigerator that you might use for a specific reason and don't follow a an exact protocol every day. Um, for example, when I travel, I use thymus and alpha 1, which I'm on right now, as you can tell. Uh, for any for the immune system. Yeah. Uh I keep around BPC 157 and TB500 for injuries. I run a couple of times a year a tessamellin iparlin uh with CJC1 1295 cycle for growth hormone and um those are the biggies. Uh oh CX and Cank intraasal. Uh CX is a little bit more of like a cognition uh brain drive neurotrphic factor booster and then Cank is more of like a uh like an anxolytic. So kind of an up or downer. >> It's like my version of Valium caffeine. >> Yeah. >> What he said. >> Yeah. >> Uh and pretty much that protocol I agree with and I tell everyone the answer's not at the bottom of a peptide bottle like diet, lifestyle, nutrition. Uh living by the principles first. These are like additives that can help optimize your health, especially with our food sources and how stripped they are of the nutrients. Um the only compounds that I think I take that you didn't discuss is IGF LR3. I don't know if you've ever messed with that uh insulin growth factor LR3. So, a lot of people take growth hormone historically, but the reason they were taking growth hormone was in an effort to get all the therapeutic benefits that growth hormone gives you when it converts to IGF. And so, if you were to use the peptide IGF, you get all the benefits of growth hormone, but with a much better safety profile that will not impact your natural growth hormone levels. Um, and so that's why I'm a huge fan of >> Does it does it have like a similar uh like like pure HGH? You get a little bit of of almost like a gluccocorticoid response where you there's a surge in cortisol, your resting glucose tends to be higher. A lot of people don't sleep as well at night because it it goes on a downstream pathway. Do you skip out a lot of that? >> Yeah, you you do skip out a lot of that, but bigger than that is you're not impacting your natural growth levels. So, you know, you're still in your 40 I'm in my 40s, 46. So I want to be cognizant of that. But anytime I come off like so I'll go on for four to six weeks and then I when I come off I'll cycle on to CJC and some of the other things you discussed just to boost my natural growth hormone levels. >> So I have the simplest protocol here. Sounds like um I will micro dose GLP1 once in a while for inflammation. I think there's going to be new emerging research. I was actually at the protein working group summit 3.0 I know and that is like the Oscars for nerds and protein scientists. I I just invitation only a 100 of the finest scientists that are doing protein research and there were topics of discussion like what are the challenges that we face but more importantly I sat with Arie Astrup who discovered GLP-1's impact on appetite. So he was essentially responsible for what we now have as this obesity now not called obesity sarcopenic epidemic GLP-1 use which again I'm totally for GLP1s but that is >> cool you said you're you're micro doingsing it for inflammation >> yes and there is going to be new emerging research that it is going to have an impact on cancer they believe >> that low we we don't totally know he believes it's through inflammation And this was the guy who discovered GLP1's effect on appetite. >> How do you know that it's not just a reduction in the turnover of food? >> Right. We don't. >> So all of this could just eat less cancer-causing food. >> Could be. It could be, but that remains. >> Well, in the the second leading cause of canc leading cause, second to that is obesity. And then the So if you were able to address aging and obesity, then you're naturally going to reduce the risk of cancer. So I I think uh >> I mean there's even >> there's definitely going to be a correlation to the weight loss. Like obesity is one of the biggest risk factors for cancer. >> Inflammation smoking inflammation independent of obesity as well. Just eating you how many bros do you know that are relatively lean but they're turning over tons of sugar. They're just training it out of them or they're still young. Their metabolism is still kicking. >> Right. That's one of the possible benefits of intermittent fasting is autophagy and giving giving that like reactive oxygen species production a break. Yes. Uh I I have micro dosed with GLPs before on flight days. Like there's something about it just like quiets food noise. You don't really have access to great food anyways. I don't want to be distracted by food or think about it. I'm sedentary anyways for most of the day. So even if I could eat, it's probably not the best scenario for me to be eating. So uh that when I say micro do, like I don't know how much you mean, but I'm talking like 0.25. And to contextualize that like a normal dose would be what? 8 10 12 milligram something like 100 units depending on >> it's crazy that you because what you're saying is what we've seen anecdotally like because we're at over 70,000 patients now in in the patient population as a whole at waste to well and a lot of the patients are now doing micro dose GLP-1s and they say that they see a big difference in their inflammation and I think that that is what we're going to find more and I think the bigger point that we have to make is that they're here to stay whereas other medications there's never been anything nearly as revolutionary and you know in the 90s when they had the food guide pyramid and then all of a sudden obesity hit. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> We are at the precipice of trading obesity for sarcopenia >> right now. Yeah. Right. Right. We're going we're going from people who are too big to people that are too frail. >> Decrease in muscle mass and strength. And we've seen it, right? Your parents all of a sudden get frail. Your grandparents get frail. And if we're not careful, we're going to miss the early warning signs, which I think that we're seeing uh with people out in Hollywood. We're we're just seeing a transformation book. I read your book and you talked about where it's not necessarily that people read it. We're under muscled. We're also under muscled. It's not just that we're obese, we are under muscled. That's right. >> And if we can maintain lean muscle mass and bone meal density as we age, it is one of the leading indicators on health span and longevity. What are some biohacks or some interventions that you use or believe in but you don't have any data to support? What are some of the things that you're like, I [ __ ] love this and I know that it works for me. The doctor in the corner is shaking her head. We'll give it to the [ __ ] bro scientist. >> Let's go bro science. Uh biocharger. Have you ever seen this? >> Oh my god, I have one. >> Borrowed one from Tony. >> I have one. No, I don't. I don't. >> I don't. >> I don't. So I >> don't rope me into your [ __ ] >> Facebook marketing bracelet. >> No. Okay. So I saved a patient's life and she said, "Pick any piece of equipment that you want." And she keeps talking about this biocharger. She's like, "My sex drive is up. This is like the best thing ever." I'm like, "Okay, well I already have a sauna. I already have a cold plunge. What about the biochar?" >> Yeah. But so I got a I have a biocharger. >> How did you find it? >> Great. >> My husband, he's like, "I feel this." I mean, who knows? But >> it does it does red light. >> But does it work? It's like >> radio frequencies based on a Tesla coil surrounded by 12 noble gases in tubes. >> And there's zero clinical data. But >> you can hold a cool [ __ ] I think a parasite recipe like a raisin. Okay. The raisin brand recipe works. If you have constipation, if if you're constipated, been traveling, whatever. You sit in front of the raisin brand rescue last 12 minutes and you literally have like a turtle head. >> I want to hear I want to hear what Chris's experience was. Chris, what happened? >> I did research on it. >> I got zero. I was like, what is >> I went I went to Tony Robbins house. He said he's got one in every room in his house apparently. I don't know why. And uh we I got lent one for a month or so. I noticed no difference. For the people, >> you use it. Wait, did you use it though? >> Consistently. It was semi-consistent. >> He didn't use it. You didn't use >> But you can't like you put your phone near it and your phone starts [ __ ] glitching out like how often did you use it? >> I don't know. If I'm supposed to use >> Okay, wait. I have two other I have two things that and then I've got one more. Oh, you've got >> You might know more about this this So, there's something and you probably know way more about this than I do, but I got um lent a wind back machine. Have you ever seen that? It's like some techart therapy. Do you know what that I don't know what both of those exciting. >> I don't know. And it's So, you don't know what it is? I don't know what it is either, but what is it? >> Well, it seems like it has some um It's like not quite EMS, but it has some res um high radio frequency muscle stimulation. >> It is, but it's not exactly. And it's called techart therapy. >> What do you do? Patches. >> So, there's patches, but I've been using it for my hamstring. And it seems >> Does it have like like a controller that's producing? >> It does. It has this Yes. And I was hoping that you would tell me what exactly how it works, but it seems to do tissue healing. I haven't seen good US data on it. I think that I I feeling better has to work somehow. And it's not a stim device. >> Yeah. >> Uh I do not know if if someone could Google it and see exactly what frequency >> I'll I'll send it. >> No, it's called a windback. >> Windback. >> Wind. pull pull it up and see what they're what they're actually saying that it does. I I might have seen something like it before. Um >> it localizes to where the pain is, which is really weird. >> Yeah. The Roxiva lamp. Have you seen this one? >> No. >> Okay. So, it's a sound lounge that vibrates like like a viro acoustic bed that you lay on. That sounds cool. >> And then it's a lamp and the lamp has headphones. So, it's like a AV cable. One side is going into the viro acoustic bed. The other side's going to the headphones. And then there's like 100 different sessions ranging from 5 minutes to 60 minutes that are like blast off to the moon psychedelic like fullon mushroom LSD like trip depending on what you choose with zero biological payback as far as you actually needing to swallow a substance or put anything under your tongue. You lay there, you put on the headphones, you flip it on, you close your eyes and it whisks you off to another >> and it works. What is it called? So it's like if if we were to talk about the proposed neural benefit, it would be based on what's called light sound entrainment, meaning shifting you into different brain waves based on the light and the sound. It's called a rocka. >> There is a session on there. It is like a shift wave, but imagine if the shift wade didn't just have sound cuz a shift is super cool for people listening or watching. It vibrates. Uh >> it doesn't just vibrate. It [ __ ] shakes the roof with nodes. I've got one at the house. >> And the cool the cool part is it will it will guide you through breath work sessions and specifically like the breath holds. >> You can go like 25% longer just based on the distraction of the the vibrating chair. So, and you're wearing a a fingertip monitor for HRV and your HRV climbs through the roof while you're doing this thing. Imagine that plus flickering light that's also designed to just like whisk you off into a completely different state. There's a session called Rebirth and they actually recorded like whoosh whooshing sounds in mom's womb and the fetal heartbeat and you you put on the headphones, you close your eyes, you lay under this thing and it feels like you're just like primally being whisked back into this like fetal state and you lay there for 45 minutes and sometimes you'll fall asleep. You're in and out of consciousness. And then the last 5 minutes you get birthed and the music crescendos and all of a sudden like everything starts beating and the lights get brighter and your heart rate speeds up and you get this dump of adrenaline and then you're just like out and then everything goes dark and you sit up from it and you just feel like you could go conquer the world 2 p.m. in the afternoon. That's [ __ ] >> Wow. I was so into that. It's pretty cool. That's [ __ ] cool. Does it work if you use I mean >> I've used the I've used the shift wave. The shift wave is not as comprehensive as that. There was a an interesting thing around the sounds from mother's womb. I had Steven porges on the poly veagal theory guy. >> Oh very interesting. >> And um >> he came up with the safe and sound protocol SSP. You familiar with that? So this is a mode of uh nervous system re-entrainment and it's a combination of kind of meditation with you actually have a facilitator who is uh halfway between mantra meditation psychotherapy and uh like uh soundwave uh work I guess and breath work. Um, and one of the things that he taught me, which is [ __ ] fascinating, the soft, gentle, reassuring sounds that mothers give to their kids is the frequency in which the safe and sound protocol works as well. One of the weird things is that's the >> You mean the same like sound frequency like like the tone? >> Yes. >> So interesting. >> It's the same for dogs and it's the same for horses and that's the reason that equin therapy and that humans and horses are able to connect as well and that humans and dogs are able to connect as well. That's fascinating >> because the sound frequency that mothers and uh kids have in all of those species are within the same band. Isn't that [ __ ] cool? >> What if your mom has a really low voice? >> She's probably jacked. Doesn't matter at all. Um what what else have I been using that's been interesting? >> Hyperbaric oxygen therapy. I mean, I know that this is not super like experimental and it's probably pretty well >> not sexy at all. >> It's that uh hard shell at what like 2.2 too ata is so good. I don't know what is happening to make me feel the way that I do after I come out of a a hyperbaric therapy but it is 20 minutes on 5 minutes off 100% oxygen on the mask normal oxygen outside of that 90minut session down at depth 2.2 is >> better than any coffee better than any cold plunge better than any anything. >> There's there's a little bit of parasympathetic activation too just from the the whole sensory depth nature of it. I I did one at Bighams yesterday and like my tongue's lagging out of the corner of my mouth. >> But it's just a standard hyperbaric chamber that they've been using in operators forever. >> Yeah, Michael Jackson was using one in like the '9s. >> Have you guys used the hydrogen bath stuff? Yeah, I used one in my garage. >> Okay. I I don't And I think there is. I haven't looked it up. I just [ __ ] have one. >> It's just trans thermal absorption of hydrogen. Inhalation studies behind it. I just use it and I like getting hundreds of times more hydrogen than a pill. >> It's so relaxing to me because it's a hot tub. You're seeing a hot tub that has hydrogen in it and uh you need a placebo control trial where you're actually in the hot tub and nobody tells you whether or not they put hydrogen in it. But the the idea is that there is some transermal absorption of hydrogen in a hydrogen-rich environment either in the air or in the water that's greater than what you would get from like a pill dropped in water. And hydrogen being a selective antioxidant means that for inflammation, for soreness, etc., uh, you do feel pretty good afterwards. Like I hard books for my podcast and literally like my bookshelf on my books to read is in the garage. Uh, that's where my wife helped me put the bathtub uh in in a hydrogen bath with a red light. And I lay out there. I lay out there and read books. >> How long do you stay in? >> About 40 minutes. >> How long do you stay in, Chris? >> Uh, uh, almost every day now. Oh, the the hydrogen bath I was using really intermittently. That was when I was in uh >> Lumati. That was the only place I've >> ever that's where I got my hydrogen concentrator was from them in San Diego. >> Have you seen Alex Tonava's thing? He's the inhalation. >> Yeah, Brigham has one. Uh that that is uh it's it's the only hydrogen inhalation machine that can go up to that high of a percentage that doesn't use a nasal canula. So, so you get a pretty high concentration >> that also doesn't risk [ __ ] >> without explosion. Yeah, without risk of explosion. You do not want [ __ ] about with hydrogen, dude. But I mean, you you put me in touch with Alex and his machine is [ __ ] out of this world. I don't even know if they're publicly >> if they're like know if they're for sale or not. Uh but but it's called >> been working on it for a decade. What's pushed me over the edge is is there's a very um very trustworthy guy in the hydrogen research sector named Tyler Leberon who I think he founded the uh the hydrogen research foundation. I think that's what it's called. And he put his name behind this because he was so impressed with it compared to all these different machines, a lot of them coming out of Asia that have low concentration or you can't adjust the percentage or they use a nasal canula instead of a mask. Uh, and so when I asked him about it and he was like, "Thumbs up. This is the best one in the market." >> What do you make of, uh, because we've got hydrogen tablets, >> right? >> Uh, hydrogen flasks, water infusion flasks, inhalation, and now baths as well. What do you make of hydrogen, the research around it generally, and then what do you make of those different >> I've used a test kit to test the bottle and the tablet, and the bottle produces a higher concentration of hydrogen. It's like 8 to 10 ppm, but the bottles uh poop out after like 300 uses. So, you're gonna buy a bottle frequently. Yeah. The pills slightly lower. The transmal absorption, there's not a lot of research on that. The inhalation is the highest concentration that you can infuse into your body as far as what they've actually look like looked at for for hydrogen concentration. >> What's the proposed mechanism benefits of breathing hydrogen of putting more of it in your body? >> It's an antioxidant. So basically it would quell inflammation. It would uh essentially um because it's a selective antioxidant it can accept or donate electrons. So unlike say like a highdose synthetic vitamin C or vitamin E um or non-steral anti-inflammatory drug it can actually uh accept or donate an electron. And so it would be something that would not say quell the hormetic response to exercise. Like after you do a hard exercise session, you're actually not supposed to take highdose antioxidants. You're not supposed to >> cold plunge. >> Well, the the cold plunge, you have to drop the muscle temperature by about 1°C, which takes at least 10 minutes at a pretty cold temperature that like jumping in a quick cold plunge or taking a cold shower after workout. That's not the thing that has been overblown like it's it's been overblown because I don't know a lot of people who even have the time after workout to get in a cold plunge for 10 to 20 minutes which is where which is where all the desire and that's and that's where the research that you blunt the anabolic response actually happens. So if you're going to do a long cold plunge wait for a few hours 10-minute cold plunge >> mess [ __ ] nuts. >> Um >> I do three minutes. >> Yeah. So, so basically hydrogen and methylene blue are two examples of selective antioxidants that can accept to donate an electron that would be acceptable for post exercise inflammation without blunting the anabolic response. Tell me if this sounds familiar. You train regularly. You eat reasonably well. You feel fine, but you're just kind of going off vibes. Most people have absolutely no idea what's going on inside their body. And that is why I partnered with Function. function gives you access to more than 160 advanced lab tests spanning hormones, heart health, kidney function, and even detects early signals linked to more than 50 types of cancer. To put that in perspective, your typical annual physical might test 20 markers. Function runs over 160. It's huge. Best of all, you test twice a year and everything lives inside of a simple dashboard. So, you track trends over time, make sure you're moving in the right direction. And this level of testing would usually cost thousands, but with function, it is $365 per year. just $1 a day to actually know what's happening inside of your body. And right now, you can get $25 off, bring it down to 340 bucks. Get the exact same blood panels that I use and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. What about talking about the uh temperature of your muscles being a mediating factor? I saw that Brian had swallowed a thermometer, a pill thermometer, and he was looking at the temperature that you need to get to. Yeah. For the sauna in order to get to heat shock protein, and he'd been doing maybe 20 minutes or 25 minutes at 200, but he actually needed to get to 30 minutes at 200 in order to get to that. What was your read on that data? >> He did. He's also very lean, right? So, that's going to be a factor in that he's probably going to need higher temperatures, right, to to efficient with heat. >> Yeah, exactly. Efficient with heat, less insulation. Um, I think it also depends on your activity level in the sauna. Like, I move a lot in the sauna. Like, I'm I'm doing push-ups and squats and, you know, hot yoga and pennium tanning and, you know, all the things that one does in a sauna, so I think if you're moving around a lot, you you can get pretty hot. But he does make a good point in that if you want the actual heat shock protein benefit of a sauna which is the the main mechanism that kicks in at the higher temperatures. So, not just like the detox from sweating or whatever, but the actual cellular resilience effect that you need a hotter temperature than most likely a lot of people are actually using with the caveat being it's kind of a paradox that sauna decreases risk of dementia and Alzheimer's. But when your cranium gets hot and you're getting above about 200° and you don't have your sexy Elvin sauna hat, then you actually increase risk of dementia, Alzheimer's. So, he makes a pretty good point that you probably need to go hotter than you're actually going or move more in your sauna or both. Uh, but you need to invest in a in a wool cap to do so. >> That's the protection. Interesting. >> Protection. >> Uh, how important is ice balls? >> How I was going to ask? >> Yeah, I bought I bought my sons the I forget the brand, but they're the ice nut. Like I have 18-year-old sons and I want grandkids and we do something. >> That is the thing. They say that if you're trying to reproduce that the hot temperatures can decrease fertility. >> Well, the crazy thing is I I was when I went to go and freeze my sperm, I was talking about, oh, okay, what do I need to avoid? D. One of the things that the guy came back to me and said is there's so many guys that go away in a bachelor party and they just hang in a jacuzzi, you know, like just chilling with their boys for ages. He's like, "That will do so much more damage to your sperm count than a ton of sauners because you've got direct contact from the heat of the water just like absolutely infusing your testosterone, your testicles with >> and chlorine and parabens and phalates and everything else getting through." >> How important how important are the heat shock proteins? like do we really need those or can you get a lot of the benefits without getting into that that >> you can get uh and as a matter of fact this was a couple of months ago they looked at sauna versus weight training and the weight training protocol produced heat shock protein elevation similar to what people were getting from a sauna session I don't remember the time or the temperature being used but waste would be one just exercising in the heat in general uh paradoxically cold plunging can increase heat shock protein because it's a thermal regulatory mechanism. So there are other ways that you can stress the body kind of like fasten autophagy to get a similar pathway activated. So it doesn't just have to be sauna. >> That's interesting. I've been loving uh resonance breathing lamps. There's this lamp called M. Health and uh it's got FDA registered heart rate sensor on the top of it. So you can imagine like a big glass lamp and on the top there's a stone and that's got a 100 hertz sensor. You just hold the stone and the lamp is connected to your Wi-Fi, has the algorithm and it detects your HRV and you breathe. The stone vibrates. So you're just breathing up and down with the stone. It maximizes your resonance. It gets you into resonance. It's maximizing that arrhythmia between it. Makes like an ocean sound like two weeks ago. I got targeted on Instagram. So rules. Absolutely. >> Funny funny story. So So uh uh Jay Wilds, the the HRV expert who developed that lamp. I used to have this thing where I didn't want to do a podcast without a sidekick, without a podcast host. Jay was my podcast sidekick for like four years. No way. >> Yeah. He he was he was like the witty banter guy and he's super smart. Like like whenever anybody would ask a question about HRV, like Jay would jump in and then he developed this lamp and it actually is cool. >> It's [ __ ] It's absolutely awesome. The best thing about it is you can grab it and use it while you're watching TV. So let's say that you're lying in bed or you're on the couch or whatever. If you've got a lamp nearby, you can just be watching the movie and you can crank out 45minute resonance breath work sessions without even thinking about it. >> Because you don't need the light cue, just the vibratory >> just vibrating. It doesn't interrupt anything. If you've got it next to your bed and you can't sleep on a night time, you can roll over and grab it. That's all. It doesn't interrupt whoever you're in bed with. >> So, what what is that? Is it the vibration that changes it or is it the breath? the the idea behind resonance breathing and it's is actually kind of fascinating that nearly every human being on the planet with a breath rate of around 5 1/2 seconds in 5 1/2 seconds out achieves peak HRV. So that's about where you see really good veagal tone is at that breath rate. And this lamp is essentially in a trainment tool to either via visual cues or via vibratory cues if you're using the stone to cause you to breathe at that rate. There's a book called uh coherence. And uh in the latter pages of that book, it was one of the first books I ever read on resonance breathing. There's like a link or a QR code to a downloadable MP3 file called the clock and bell. And that was when I first discovered the power of resonance breathing because it's literally like tick tock tick tock ding tick tock and you play it while you're working or while you're checking emails while you're doing whatever would normally be stressful. It keeps you from email apnea because you know that you're you're doing resonance breathing but it trains you how to like subconsciously resonance breathe. Obviously a way away uh more stripped down solution than what Jay developed. Home lab is super cool art. It's trait rather than state. And I think that's what everybody's trying to get themselves over to. It's like, I want to do this practice, but I don't to just end at the end of my my session. One of the interesting things I talked to Jay about was if you get >> below 10 minutes, it's just state. If you get between 10 and 20, you start to move it across into trait changes, too. I think you only need to do maybe, you know, three or four sessions a week. So, an hour a week, something like that. And it's so easy. So, that's that's on my list. doesn't do fetal heartbeat and woo whooshing sounds though, >> which is a shame. Which is a shame. They got to build that. >> Uh, any other cool [ __ ] like interventions or supplements or whatever you've been playing? >> The other the other big one that I've seen and and I know Ben's experienced it too is uh the Muse stem cells. >> It's it's they so a scientist Mari Dawa out of Japan discovered a subset phenotype of stem cell called Muse. And it's fascinating because everything they've been doing outside of the United States with tinkering with stem cells and trying to put them under stress and trying to get them to adapt and change has been in an effort to create a cell that would have a certain phenotype that would be optimal for healing, recovery, uh, and treating an array of different chronic diseases, but that would not become tumoric. >> Right? So, one of the challenges of a cell that can differentiate, meaning it can become anything, is that cell could in theory hypothetically become a cancer cell or what if it came into contact with a cancer cell and took on a cancer phenotype and then exasperated that and now we put trillions of these cells in your body and soc. >> Uh 2014, this is another woman, one of the leading scientists in stem cell research. 2014, she discovered this cell. Um it is a muse stands for multi-lineage stress enduring. Um which basically means traditional stem cells you have to cryofreeze negative 80° or more and the second you thaw them out they begin to die and so you've got to get them into the body quickly. These muse cells can stay alive for days at room temperature. Um less than 2% of stem cells are muse but they're the super soldiers. got a little music. >> So, and all this research is now coming together like this scientist Dominic Deutscher out of Germany uh was a professor at Stanford and he couldn't understand why diabetic patients didn't seem to be responding in certain ways like other patients. Now that he he he realized in his study even though they had stem cells they were missing this other tagged cell that was some sort of subset and what it was was a muse. And so here's why that's important. A muse cell in layman's terms can become anything. So like when you're a kindergartener, you could grow up and be a scientist, a doctor, an attorney, >> Greenfield or us, >> Ben Greenfield, whatever it is, because you haven't set your identity yet. So in America, most people who say stem cells don't work, they're getting bone marrow, aspirate or they're taking cells from fat tissue. And the problem with that is that cell's already developed a phenotype >> and the fraction is very large. >> Yes. And so a lot of it gets stuck in >> and if they're diabetic or elderly, they don't have Muse. There are no MUS. It's literally just traditional MSC's. And so what is so special about these cells is they will take on any phenotype. They can pierce the bloodb brain barrier. Other traditional cells get caught in the lungs. Traditional MSE's mostly get caught up in the lungs. They don't pierce the bloodb brain barrier. Traditional MSE's have a 3% engraftment rate. Muse cells have a 30% engraftment rate. Traditional stem cells take multiple days to engraft. Muse cells are engrafted within 48 hours. and high hestocompatibility too. There's almost no immune system response. So they're immunom modulator. Is this the [ __ ] that is this the [ __ ] that Matt Cook had me breathe? Did he have me atomized? You can nebulize now. He probably had you do that with Muse derived exosomes. >> Yeah. Yes. Yes. >> And so we you can literally place it on the fulcrum plate uh interasally and it will pierce the bloodb brain barrier. And they have this because they did it on stroke victims in Japan. And their brain is lit up like a Christmas tree with these tagged cells. And what's crazy is through fagocytosis, they'll consume the damaged cell and take on the personality of that cell. So if you have a damaged neuron, they become a baby neuron that's young and healthy and vibrant. This is proven quantifiably in uh babies born with encphilitis. They did a study in Japan. If they don't treat those children, almost all of them will be brain damaged in the subset population that was treated in a randomized control trial which people love. Those children, 90% of them had totally normal brain function out to two years from one introvenous treatment >> from one introvenous treat. And we actually had a patient who was on a heart transplant list. We were talking about this with Ben yesterday. Crazy patient on a heart trans transplant list. We treat them intravenous because they couldn't get the heart. By the time they got the heart and they reran this patient's information or their all their data, the doctor took them off the transplant list and there is crazy data on heart. >> You guys are using Dawa Muse, right? Correct. Because the the actual fraction percentage of Muse cells widely varies. So there's different Mari Dawa is the woman in Japan who discovered these cells. Yeah. >> And so this is the most gamecher thing that I have seen and I've like I don't own into the company. It's not mine. I wish I did but it's like the most gamecher thing and we've been using it in and because again Texas has the right to try and so certain this is what Brett has seen the most impact with with his his Parkinson's. And I'm not saying it's going to if with Parkinson's it's like can we slow can we slow things? Can we give your body the best chance? And there are so many different benefits to this whether it's tendons or joints or orthopedic related injuries. The data is really compelling when you go back and look at all of the data that this woman has acred over the last decade and now it's a culmination of even the scientist in Germany Dominic Deutscher who is trying to understand what are these little subset phenotypes and now it's all come together where he's like holy [ __ ] I've wasted 20 years of research >> actually harvested from a rare breed of cattle in the Middle East. That's super cool. Difficult to get. You're kidding. He is kidding. It's a call back. >> This is healthy birth, healthy brother. Pre-plan C-section. They take the discarded after birth and from that they can extrapolate out these these supercells, these super soldier cells. Basically, >> that's so [ __ ] cool. >> After birth super soldiers. >> Yeah, that's what I need. >> So, those are things that I think will be game changer as they become more readily accepted. Florida's passed a law that allows accessibility. Um, Tennessee just passed a law that I lobbied for and then also I lobbied in Arizona. We got it through the House and the Senate, but the governor of Arizona shot it down. Um, I think Texas is going to pass more accessible laws around this. Um, and then Utah. So, you can get it in certain states and then certain states are regulated and then obviously it's not an FDA approved uh modality for anything. So, any any use of these cells would be off off label. There is no label. You know what you were talking about? Um, putting stuff here. I was thinking about clear spray. X L E A R. That [ __ ] just available over the counter for marks. >> [ __ ] crazy. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I can't believe that that thing is just like, oh yeah, just buy it. And for the people that don't know what I'm talking, can you explain what it is? It's a nasal spray. >> About the xylitol infused nasal spray. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, I've only ever really used it after swimming in fresh water. Like I discovered it way back in the triathlon days where you get out of a river or lake or any fresh body and just typically like about 3:00 or 4:00 a.m. that night after you you'd lay down and stuff connects in the nasal passages and you get the histamineergic response, you start sneezing and you start sniffling and you spray this stuff uh and you get vasoddilation and it seems to just like knock down the histamine reaction, but it's just an OTC. >> Yeah. Yeah. Over-thec counter clear spray. But if you do a course typically for about two or three months, that's enough to knock out markons that is a >> which normally you'd get a pretty expensive and difficult to get vasoactive intestinal polyeptide like nasal spray for like VIP peptide. >> The VIP peptide. Yeah. But you can do that and then maybe some silver spray and you can get rid of something that's literally living in your [ __ ] nasal cavity. >> Like you got [ __ ] that's living inside of your nose. These like what they're like micro organisms. Yes. >> And uh yeah, this clear spray which is just X L E A R and stuff like that. >> Somebody knows how to pronounce it. >> Yeah, whatever. I mean, apparently clear spray. >> Clear spray. >> Somewhere along the way, low energy just gets accepted as a part of getting older. Turns out there's a reason for that. As we age, our mitochondria, the parts of our cells that power us, become weaker and make less energy. Which is why I'm such a huge fan of Timeline. They've developed this that helps to clear out your damaged mitochondria so your cells can actually renew themselves. Timeline is backed by over a decade of research and has more than 50 patents and is the number one recommended mitochondrial supplement on the planet. This isn't just theory. In clinical trials, people saw mitochondrial renewal increased by more than 40% in just 16 weeks along with improvements in their overall energy. I've been using it for over two years since my doctor recommended it to me way before I partnered with Timeline. and eat your heart out, Martin Schrelli, cuz they've just dropped the price and it now starts at $99. Best of all, there is a 30-day money back guarantee, plus free shipping in the US, plus they ship internationally. And right now, you can get that $99 price with an additional 20% off by going to the link in the description below by heading to timeline.com/modernwisdom using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's timeline.com/modernwisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. So why why are GLPS a concern for sarcopenia and are you more worried about sarcopenia than osteoporosis? >> I'm worried about both and that is a great question. We've never had the ability to lose this much weight this fast outside of buriatric surgery. >> We are at the intersection of something that we've never seen before which is very unusual in medicine to be at a place that we've never been. >> Yeah. We now have the capacity to reduce weight magnitudes >> than of weight that we've never had before. Which means if in fact these drugs are utilized, which I think the number is, they're expecting somewhere along between 40 to 60 million people on these medications. >> It's like 20% of Americans. >> Plus all the people who are just like using gray market stuff and not even telling. >> Hopefully um things are are going to evolve there. But what is going to happen is if obesity has been our focus, which it has been for the last 50 years. We haven't gotten very far. All of a sudden, GLP1s are now available, >> obesity will become less of a problem. But the fact that people are sedentary, sarcopenia, the loss of muscle mass and strength is going to become a primary problem, which then we know how bone is formed. And by the way, osteoporosis is a pediatric disease with geriatric outcomes. Osteoporosis is a pediatric disease with geriatric outcomes. >> You explain for the idiot in the room, please. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh, wait. >> Idiots in the room. >> Um, meaning what you do when you are younger to protect bone and muscle >> plays a role in your life. >> Okay. So, so you're saying it's like it's like predictive of your your osteoporotic status late in life. >> So, what you athletes that lose their menstrual cycle are very underweight. People that have struggled struggled with anorexia end up having very low bone mineral density and then are at risk for osteoporosis. >> It's kind of strange to hear, you know, three people in a room who are quite forward thinking, quite experimental, open to new evidence being skeptical about GLPs. I understand obesity was a problem for a long time. We've got this intervention which appears to fix the obesity thing and now there's all of these potential side effects that we don't in fact they're not even side effects. They're more like second order consequences. That's probably a better way to look at them, right? Rather than the side effects. What else? How do you guys feel about the potential for millions, tens of millions of people to be taking GLPs over the next decade or so? >> I think I think one of the big challenges and this is what you just touched on is in traditional medicine, it's an insurance model and I this is my like forte and the challenge with that traditional model is you are based off an indication and that indication is both based off a specific dosage. And so these trials were based off chronically sick, morbidly obese people, right? That this was originally going to be a diabetes medication. And so all of the initial data, >> which is where the lion share of human clinical data comes from, is these populations. >> And so then the problem is you take that and you roll it out to the general population and over the 33 BMI >> and yeah, and now every housewife in Malibu was using it to lose 10 pounds for like vacation. >> Guess what else it does? And this is not really talked about. It has different sexual side effects if you are a man or a woman. >> Is that like the anhidonia thing where it reduces pleasure but but but it's more pronounced in in one sex? >> Yes. So in women >> Oh, really? >> Uh and the data is still emerging because we haven't been using it. Are you ready? >> For my wife. >> God damn it. >> So for you're so lean you're so lean but no one I can't have sex with you. Yeah. >> So for men it can increase testosterone. It can decrease body fat, decrease estrogen, and it can increase sex drive. But what we're starting to see for women is that it can again decrease body fat, but it also seems to decrease sex drive. >> So just give them some PT-141 nasal spray and we're back off to the races, right? >> Or we study women more. Yeah. Or we study women more and perhaps we get to your point specialized dosing >> because that the problem is in that model. I literally right before we walked in here got a text from somebody who said my wife's trappepite is no longer covered by insurance and they're trying to move her to a dosage that would be covered. Okay, that's you're going to move her up to a higher dosage to get insurance >> do even though she was getting the efficacy out of the lower dose and that's insurance companies I've broke this down on your podcast too before it's a big challenge because 30% of the revenue of an insurance company comes from monetizing drugs. So they are changing dosages based off rebates and what rebate pays them the most. And so you may be on an efficacious efficacious dosage that's working great for you, but they may go, "Yeah, we're not covering that one anymore. You've got to bump up." >> Yeah. Which is super because efficacious dose, I mean, we were just talking about 0.25, which is a micro dose that suppresses food noise. That for a lot of people is enough. Nowhere near enough to get covered by insurance. But then these larger doses is where you see the issue back to sarcopenia where you're told you're supposed to go to the gym and lift weights. And the only way for you to do that without feeling flat is to eat a good meal, but you sit in front of your favorite smoothie or pre-workout or whatever and you get nauseous trying it. So then you're flat in the gym. Uh, and so this is like the whole greyman hypothesis where the road that we're going down is getting really smart, getting getting big like AI, uh, potentially like, you know, hardware infused brains while our body wastes away into little stick figures and the grey men are us from the future and GP1's and AI. >> Thank goodness we have testosterone. >> Uh, is the is the um the dosage is it a pre-click pen? Is that why people can't because when I think oh this is the dosage I just think about a vial and an insulin syringe and you go well I'll just draw more or less. >> So those companies are launching those other dosages to give more mobility to patients and and options. So the commercially available uh companies the manufacturers are compounders have been doing that for the last 5 years. Um, but that still goes back to it's going to be based off what was in the clinical trials and what dosage were showed to be efficacious in those trials, which is again an obese patient population. And if you want insurance to cover it, insurance following the literature. >> Oh, that's so interesting. >> We're in a space where we don't really understand and know micro doing. We do know that GLP-1s affect muscle positively despite what you're seeing in the literature, which is it reduces muscle mass. The majority of the fat, the majority of the mass lost is fat. But why I think I actually think the GLP1s are really good is it it has the potential to improve muscle quality. >> Imagine >> by reducing intramuscular triglycerides. >> Imagine you have a Wagu steak. You go on a GLP-1, you you know inject it, your Wagu steak becomes like a fillet. >> So the texture and the composition can improve with GLP-1. So we need it. I believe that we need it because we have not been effective before. And again, I don't think body fat is the major problem. I think it's intramuscular. that that is that is true that a lot of the studies on I think it was primarily redatride that showed muscle loss were done via DEXA evaluations which couldn't differentiate between lean mass loss coming from muscle or lean mass loss coming from something like intrahypatic tissue intramuscular triglycerides or other things that would actually be a positive benefit when it comes to loss >> but if you're not eating enough food the muscle loss thing is still a pretty pretty big risk >> to try and recap while we're out here cuz that was that's [ __ ] mind-blowing. The studies that have been done are mostly on mobidly obese people because they're morbidly obese. They're given quite high dosages. When it comes to the prescribed uh prescriber approved dosages that people can take because they need to follow the science that means that even people who are looking to lose a little bit of weight and might be able to get efficacious effects from micro doing they need to be given the big boy dosages because they're the only ones that currently have been studied in the literature. Is that right? It's attempt to try and land the ship and thread the needle and get insurance coverage and then the initial initial initial prescriptions for the first few years were pre-loaded syringes, right? And so autonomy to shift and so when we were seeing muscle wasting, it's like yeah because a lot of these people are taking way higher dosages than they should have been taking and their doctors just trying to give them a solution >> and then nose diving their weight when they don't need to. They could get away with 0.25 up. And what Gabriel was saying is like like the muscle loss is not necessarily a direct mechanistic cause of the GLP itself and some of the actual loss from that might be favorable. It's the loss that occurs from simply not being able to get into the gym and or eat adequate protein >> because you've got such low energy because you're not eating >> and low food volume. And >> what's the mechanism for the sex drive in women? >> Dopamine. Dopamine brain reward pathways. They because it's the pathways are very similar and they're looking at GLP-1 for alcohol addiction. Yeah. And drug addiction. It's not >> anything that's hedonic. >> Anything that's sedonic. It's not solely just related to body fat and appetite. It has brain effects. >> It's not only found in the gut and slowing like making you feel full and slowing gastric emptying. It's also you have GLP1 in the brain and so it impacts your uh dopamine response, >> desire generally. I brought this up. I brought this zombie mode. >> I brought this up with Rogan. I was like, what happens when our entire economy is driven on consumerism and you pharmacologically suppress desire, >> right? Like most people are buying [ __ ] not things that they need, just things that they want. And it's sort of repeat habituation. I'm just going to satisfy, satiate myself, and yeah, maybe it's sex, maybe it's video games, maybe it's porn, maybe it's social media, maybe it's weed. So >> you're you're going down the GLP to GDP. >> Wait, but here's what we're doing. >> Very nice. Well, I totally missed that. But as I say, I'm like the mom in the room. But what's happening is that so I see patients in my clinic, right? Strong medical. People are getting a little depressed. They don't get the same enjoyment from sex, from eating or from spending. >> People on GLPs get depressed. >> And now I want to be really clear. I'm not anti-GLP ones. I mean, we prescribe them. But it's the idea that kind of what Brigham is saying is that we understand the utilization in trials with sick people with type two diabetes. We don't really know all of the other secondary outcomes that this can cause. And again, part of them are positive, but decreased sex drive, uh, fun, mood, all of those things, those are a problem. >> I remember looking at >> it's a great great aid for stoicism. I I looked at some research around uh beriatric surgery outcomes and there's an increase in uh suicide risk after buriatric surgery but it's not just because it's highly traumatic and sometimes there's infections and sometimes like idiot surgeons like close you up with gauze still inside of you and and and things can go wrong. It's that >> typically people who are sufficiently overweight that they use buriatric surgery are eating to deal with something that's happening in their life. They've now had that they've had that pathway of reward and sedation taken away from them, but the problem still exists. So now what you're talking about here is, hey, you're using GLPs to help yourself lose weight. The weight loss has been cailed, but the reason that you overweight is still exists. And the same thing goes. >> If you were to go to Dr. Lion's practice, I guarantee you, you're doing a full workup. You're assessing the blood work, and you're looking at the patient holistically. If you go into a primary care practice in an insurance model, they have 6 minutes with a patient on average. They want to put a win on the board for that patient. That patient's asking for a GLP1. That patient probably is pre-diabetic or diabetic. That patient probably does have weight to lose. But what is the root cause of this illness, and these are the symptoms, not the root cause. And then they prescribe the GLP-1 without ever saying, do they have a hormonal inadequacy? Do they have a family history of mental health issues, depression, anxiety? you're doing all that, but you have the ability in a cash model. >> And you bring up another really good point that say someone needs to lose weight. Again, we have to recognize we have been very unsuccessful. >> Now, we have a tool that makes us successful. >> However, let me pose it to you this way. If you bum had low thyroid and you were hypothyroid, well uh you might try to get to the root cause, but let's just say you have low thyroid and I give you thyroid replacement to normalize your levels. You wouldn't think twice, right? I'm going somewhere with this. Yes. >> If you had trouble seeing, let's say your eyes got older. If I gave you glasses, that wouldn't be an issue. >> Now, it would it would affect my sex appeal a little bit. I would push back. I would ask for contacts. >> Fine. Fine. But wait, I'm going somewhere with this. But if someone comes in to your point with say low testosterone as a woman or a man, they are now juicing. They are now on steroids. So this is a problem. Not that your testosterone is low. I'm going to give you testosterone to bring you up to a normal level. We're not talking about optimization. We're not talking about enhancement. We are talking about someone is using a GLP1 now has low testosterone man or woman and the thing the balance let's say they have low sex hormones because of the industry stigma in general. >> Yeah. Everyone at this table is very interested in health, but for the average person, if you go, "Hey, I'm on testosterone." They're like, "Oh my gosh, you're juicing. You're on steroids." >> Right? Because you're saying because there is a stigma in primary care, too, with tes. So, real world example, and he covered this on Joe is jelly roll. We've helped him lose 250 pounds. Everyone immediately assumes we put him on a GLP1. No, we ran his blood work. He had low testosterone. He was chronically inflamed. He had all sorts of other biometric issues unrelated to discipline and all we did was fix those root causes. He never took a GLP1 and to this day everyone's like and I sell GLP1s. I would tell you if he took its guy did it with blood, sweat and tears diet lifestyle intestines hormones. Yes. But in general medicine they view it as testosterone is the boogie. >> Yeah. It's a misunderstanding between hypogonatism and super physiological dosing of testosterone and not understanding the sweet spot in between. And you know I I still you know like I was watching uh Pete Hezga's recent video about putting war fighters on testosterone. >> He wasn't putting war fighters on testosterone screening >> or yeah screening for that. I I still like to see that conversation couched in the discussion of like lift weights with your legs where there's a high concentration of androgen receptors and cover the bases like creatine and zinc and boron and omegas and magnesium and some of the upstream precursors. You know, look into sleep, look into recovery and then make the decision. So, I know you guys aren't saying just like throw testosterone willy-nilly. You see you did blood work with jelly roll. I think the problem is like it is it is massive the number of people who are hypoconatal the number of men in particular hypo gonatal I don't I don't think that testosterone replacement therapy is the first solution but sometimes it is the most effective solution especially in a scenario where you're unable like in a war fighter to >> and we I to live the optimal lifestyle >> important very important conversation what you are saying is absolutely correct we are seeing a decrease in testosterone year after year obesity goes up, behaviors go down, people are eating, not sleeping, all sorts of things. There is a medical risk when someone has low testosterone for heart disease, for osteoporosis, cognition, depression. So, uh, if I had one dream in this room of strong men and powerful men, we would clear up the idea of a testosterone revolution and we would clear up this idea that testosterone is steroids and somehow I can give medication to make someone have less fat. But if I give medication to someone to have them build muscle, >> it's it's a problem. If you and your partners sleep best at different temperatures, it is time that you joined us in the modern world and got an eight sleep. >> I've always wanted to try eight sleep. Uh, which side of the bed do you prefer? I usually take left, but I am flexible. >> You're not sleeping in my bed, mate. >> Oh, when you said partner, I just assumed >> I meant a romantic partner. No, >> of course. >> Eight Sleeps Pod 5 is a smart mattress cover that actively cools or heats each side of the bed by up to 20°. So, if you run hot and your partner runs cold, you're both happy. So, hypothetically, if your bro was sleeping over, what side of the bed would you prefer? >> I'm not 12. There are no sleepovers. Okay. Best of all, it's got upgraded sensors that run health checks while you're asleep, tracking things like abnormal heartbeats or sudden HRV changes. >> What if I just slept at the end of your bed like a dock? >> Did your wife kick you out again? >> She did. Fine. Okay. >> Yes. >> Pod five. It cools, it heats, it elevates, and it's clinically proven to give you up to one hour more of quality sleep every night. And if you're still on the fence, they have a 30-day sleep trial. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to $350 off the Pod 5 by going to the link in the description below or heading to eight.com/modwisdom using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's ei.com/modernwisdom and modern wisdom a checkout. Why do you think testosterones become so demonized? you know, um, >> it makes your blood super thick and gives you a heart attack. >> So, in the 30s, people use testosterone. It was discovered in the 30s as a medical intervention and there was one study that came out by Huggin and it showed that testosterone caused prostate cancer. So, in the 30s, people were using it as a medical intervention. It wasn't there wasn't a stigma associated with it. At the same time, people were interested. We're seeing a increase in sport performance, right? Because we do know that testosterone increases muscle mass. Combined testosterone training, you get better outcomes, >> motivation for forward motion. >> All of these things. >> For decades, people would castrate men because they were worried that it was going to make or start prostate cancer and treat prostate cancer. >> The study was wrong. >> Yeah. There were only three patients in this study. >> I can't believe you know this. So there were three patients in this study. So they castrated men. >> They didn't put any >> You mean we didn't give men testosterone? Oh, they suppressed androgens. >> Well, they actually tied rubber bands around their balls. Yeah, >> they were three patients. >> They don't really do that >> because they were because this Huggin study >> said if you've got too much testosterone, you might get prostate cancer. Therefore, we'll cut you >> or if you have prostate cancer. >> Yeah, that we should. >> It was kind of hard to survive with it, but it was wrong. >> And it was all dogma that then got adopted by the medical establishment. >> It was wrong. Can you imagine? Like, whoops. >> And this was debunked by Dr. Morgan Tyler was on my podcast in the '90s. How did it take 60 years? >> I know. >> So, this is the problem. It took 60 years and now we're seeing the opposite. >> Yeah. >> Testosterone doesn't cause these things. Testosterone, there is a risk for having low testosterone. Testosterone doesn't cause prostate cancer. Testosterone doesn't make cardiovascular disease worse. There is all of these myths, which is really important, but we got it wrong. >> Well, some of them aren't true. hair loss. >> If you think about what Dr. Tyler uncovered is it comes down to saturation levels. So think of receptor sites. You can only water a plant so much. So if a plant gets no water, it dies. If a plant gets too much water, it dies. Receptor sites are the same way. You can only water that plant so much. So as men had no testosterone chemically castrated, their risk of prostate cancer was statistically less because you have no testosterone, but you have a higher risk of every other form of cancer. you have a higher risk of of of metabolic disease, diabetes. >> Most of the risks >> losing bone mass >> of testosterone are not what we thought they were and they're a little like uh you know excess aromatization and conversion to estrogen if it's improperly managed. Uh so you can get emotional issues or gynecomastia uh or uh increased conversion of DHT which can cause male pattern baldness. Um it but these are not like life or death issues >> and most of those issues occur when you And there's a difference between enhancement and replacement of something the body already makes. And for the military operators, so I had Tim Parloratory, who is the attorney who submitted the memo on the podcast. We haven't released it yet. And the idea is that if you have low testosterone, you are at a disadvantage. If we send guys to war, we're not talking about enhancement. We are talking about guys that are symptomatic with hypogonatism with low levels of testosterone. If we don't even screen right now, they're not even screening. >> If we don't screen, we are sending to war guys with a massive disadvantage. >> Suboptimal. >> I want every single soldier to have 2,000 nanogs testosterone. Yes, I [ __ ] do. Yes, I [ __ ] do. We remember, we don't want we don't want two monsters who can't control their rage. I want that's what I want. Bald rage infused [ __ ] thick skin everywhere. >> Well, we don't defending. Listen, I we >> [ __ ] each other. >> Tiny balls. >> Just [ __ ] everywhere. So sideways. Listen, as a >> as a military family, as a Navy family, um >> with high testosterone >> with high Yes. My husband, yes, has high testosterone. We would never want those war fighters going in. And you know I want to say something else is that people are saying well what about the women? Well considering only about 10 people have read the memo women will also be screened they are also complicated like it is more complicated but if we can get screening done initially to protect our soldiers then we have a way to do something about it we can fix and identify and acknowledge that there's a problem. But the fact that it is so controversial the fact that it has gotten people so upset >> is outrageous. You do see a political camp these this is a an agenda. I'm I'm sorry to get conspiratorial, but I've watched it and I've been behind the scenes and I've been all the way to DC and I've sat at the FDA. I've testified at the FDA. I have watched this play out. The same thing that happened with men in testosterone happened with women and women's hormones with the women's health initiative. And I was a med I was a drug rep when they released that study and the first thing the company did was hand me osteoporosis drugs. And all of a sudden, all of us were carrying osteoporosis drugs. And our job was to go into doctors and scare the hell out of them about you should never put a woman on estrogen again. You need to put them on an osteoporosis drug to preserve their bone mineral density. But guess what? That osteoporosis drug exasperated hot flashes, which is another issue. Now they need a hot flash drug. So, you're selling them four drugs to fix what one natural hormone would have fixed that was there since the dawn of time, but the whole study was flawed to begin with, and that all got debunked. But it took 20some years to bring estrogen back to women. >> I don't know how much the cultural conversation and the push back around testosterone is to do with people understanding a study of three people from 1930. I think it's much more cultural than that. I think it's much more of a a what does testosterone represent generally. >> Well, I think that and also the the same type of treatment that GLP-1 is given in terms of perception of taking a shortcut, right? Testosterone is often perceived the same way, right? You're not going to go lift weights and you're not going to pay attention to lifestyle factors and you're just going to throw a band-aid on it. >> But no one cares about taking JLP1. >> Exactly. No one's no one's accusing somebody that lost a ton of weight on JLPs of being non-natty. >> Right. Right. But if you ever do a six week course of [ __ ] anthate, that means for the rest of your time your your natty status is gone. >> So what is it? Why why that? Why what's the difference? And I think this is a good split test, right? You have two drugs, delivery mechanisms not too dissimilar. One's IM, one's, you know, subq. Uh both >> can be subq actually. >> Testosterone. >> So you can use them in similar ways. They achieve similar things like a leaner, more built physique. Why is it that testosterone's got this? Is it the sort of masculineized side of this? Is it aggression? Is it What do you think? >> I think it's the performance-enhancing benefits in sports and that's created a >> dogma around everybody evidently. >> But like take sports >> I think it goes beyond sports though. I mean there there is simply a perception I think that that if someone is on testosterone they are taking a little bit of a shortcut when it comes to muscle mass recovery. >> If they're low are they taking a shortcut? if they're hypogonatal, they're not taking a shortcut. They're addressing a deficiency, but there's still the perception that you're not doing the work. >> Um, and I think that feeds into I think I think some of it is the unfairness potentially of the sports performance angle as well. >> I want you a question for you. Do you not think that the indication is wrong today? Like the clinically low >> too, >> I have to be very fast about this. You are way too well read. So basically what he's saying is our indication of 300 nanogs per deciliter it's in different countries depending on where you live in Italy it might be 350 >> that will determine what your definition of hypogon >> so the lower range of normal for a normal adult male in the US at the moment is 300 nanogs per decilit >> and that's too low in my opinion >> what's the upper bound >> you think that the lower range should be raised >> I think that again I want to couch this very carefully as a practicing physician who doesn't >> this is not medical advice. This is a [ __ ] bio. >> Wait, but listen. But so I'm going to give you >> a note under the table and I can say it. I'm not a doctor. >> So what I'm saying is that um it's not just the number. So there is other things that go into effect. For example, and I figured this out. I had a guy who it was from Homeland Security and his testosterone was 600 and he had all the signs and symptoms of low tea. And I'm like, "Brother, I'm not putting you on test. Just get more sleep. you're going to be great. And it turns out he had a CAG repeat, a CAG repeat. So the testosterone that he had wasn't uh effective because he had issues with the receptors. We all have different receptors. A testosterone of 900 for you might equal a testosterone of 300 for Brigump, >> right? And and the CAD repeat is not a a SHBG free available testosterone. It's an actual receptor issue. whether or not it's going to be converted into free is still not interacting with >> and we don't test those routinely. It's primarily done in research. We're we're still gathering the data is what the impact is. But the idea that number one that testosterone is going to cause harm in physiologic ranges. So if someone is 300 or 500 but feel like crap and it looks like they need testosterone but they don't measure low. You know in the medical world we are according to guidelines not supposed to essentially treat that. That's where I was and a lot of that is insurance based too and we go back to this whole conundrum of like you can practice a sick care model and it's a challenge because every singalized medicine is exactly that. It should be personalized each individual is different and their physiological response is different. >> Insurance will cover 299 but not 301. >> Well does does TRT create the same problem that OMIC does? Like people are pharmacologically solving a problem that lifestyle should have partially fixed as an artificial solution to an artificial problem. I think some people >> are absolutely I mean that that that goes back to what I was saying earlier about lifting weights and micronutrient replenishment and you know relationships and sunlight and de-stressing and recovery and sleep. Uh if you have all of those parameters in place which a lot of people nowadays do. I think there can still be anything from environmental factors that influence testosterone availability. This is the endocrine disruptor discussion. You know, the plastic discussion, personal care products and foods wrapped in plastic, which I think can affect that. Uh there is the industrial pollution, air pollution, even like light pollution having an effect on the stress and sleep component. Like I think we have a bigger uphill battle. Uh including the fact that not a lot of guys are like chopping wood and building fences and and hauling rocks out outdoors. Um, and so I think it's a cluster of factors that influence a modern lifestyle putting you at a higher risk for hypogonat. >> We definitely have higher higher levels of low tea than we ever have as a society. But then you also look like my good friend Cali means breaks down the whole food system and ultrarocessed foods. And when did we see that spike? The big changes started happening in the 80s. And we can go back to like the infancy of how that occurred. As soon as the government began to regulate big tobacco, big tobacco, JP uh JP Philip Morris or whatever went out and started acquiring most of the major food production companies. And most of those major food production companies pivoted from healthy foods, more hearty meals to ultrarocessed foods. Ultrarocessed foods have a 30 plus% profit margin. A banana has like an 8 to 10% profit margin. So, it's our food systems, it's our glyphosate rules and regulations around our crops. All of those things are controlled in much bigger dynamics than >> all I hear right now is that cigarette companies have made us less yolked. That's that's the story. >> But here's the problem. Let's say you take the you take the war fighter. Everything that we named here is a luxury. The idea that you can sun your paranium and that you can go to bed early and you can sleep in and you can reduce light pollution, these are all luxuries that a war fighter, >> a new mom >> are not going to have. And so if we >> a lot of people >> so if we um if we restrict the ability to treat based on allowing them to solve for lifestyle factors first there is enough evidence to support that low testosterone contributes to disease risk >> that I wouldn't wait why would I have you don't have the degrees of freedom within your lifestyle for certain people that have got constraints on their sleep constraints on their ability to eat etc. Yeah, I guess Ben, you you experimented a lot obviously every performance intervention under the sun. Where does testosterone rank for you like compared with sleep or resistance training or light or diet or stress stuff like that? How important is >> in my defense? I actually have not sun my prunium. So >> recently, >> uh re yeah um since I've been in Austin, uh I haven't had the opportunity the um I think it depends primarily on age, right? So I've been on testosterone for 4 years. I began when I was 40. The main thing I noticed was being able to recover a lot faster. Uh being able to to hit the gym for, you know, what I do in the morning that keeps me sane, keeps me active, and keeps me productive, and keeps my head clear. I can continue to do that day after day. Whereas I was noting a like a significant increase in the amount of time that I needed for recovery between workouts just based on HRV, based on soreness. Um, so I I would rank it higher and higher in order of priority the older a man gets. I know we're talking about men, but obviously women are part of this discussion as well, >> which they haven't really been studied nearly as I I would say somewhere in the range of 35 to 40 years old. most men. Gabriel probably has has the the actual demographic data somewhere tucked away in a giant book. Uh uh it it's becomes pretty important. So I would say for me as I age increasingly important. >> Can I just one other thing that we should mention of course is the fertility discussion, right? That the younger you are and this is the problem with old looks maxing community of dudes totally screwing themselves over from like a legacy and childhood standpoint when they're 16 years old. Um, you we we do need to bear in mind that a 30-year-old who may be hypogonatal and may still face some of this uphill battle in terms of a post-industrial lifestyle or a modern lifestyle, keeping them that way and not being able to do things besides testosterone replacement therapy needs to know there's an impact on fertility and their practitioner needs to be aware of like methods to to maintain uh sperm quality. >> I froze my sperm last year just in case I ever wanted to get on TRT at some point. I'm not on it. And I was like, uh, I just feel like it's probably a good insurance policy. And it is so cheap. You want to talk about some [ __ ] patriarchy? One of the places that it definitely exists is how cheap it is for guys to freeze their sperm compared with women to freeze their >> Well, it's probably less expensive because you're using Mike's Butcher Shop down the street for the >> It's a great solution. And also, we just because someone goes on testosterone, there are, like you had mentioned, there are interventions like HCG. You have to work with a provider that knows. Doesn't mean you're going to be infertile. 10% of men just at baseline have low fertility. >> 2% of men have like no sperm. So if a guy is hypogonatal and he's younger, he should still be treated. You should bank his sperm. You should give him the appropriate discussion, give him some hCG, but you wouldn't want to withhold a medical treatment. I I just think it's a it's a mistake. And if we don't destigmatize the idea that somehow testosterone is going to ruin the world and make it's wrapped up in a moral panic. And I'm kind of fascinated by I've never thought about it before, but >> the equivalency of GLP's on one side and testosterone on the other. Like morally there shouldn't really be much difference between the two. One is helping you eat less and one is helping you build more muscle and your hormonal profile to improve. I get the sense that a good bit of it is that one side is quite male-coded and one is to do with aggression and sort of dominance and pursuit and forward motion and another is a somewhat more female coded which is that it's helping you to lose weight maybe be a little bit more slender and this looks like health and the other one looks more like luxury perhaps or or or unnecessary enhancement. Yeah, everybody knows a fat person that loses weights like you didn't need that. So you can see it visually. You can't see someone's low testosterone in the same way. So, I wonder that that's a really [ __ ] interesting. >> But what happens when a woman goes on a GLP1 and her testosterone is low? She tells her sister, "I I have low testosterone. I'm going to start testosterone." She's like, "Oh my god, you're going to start steroids." And then she's shamed. But so, we know that a person will go on uh typically a GLP1 for two years and come off. Now, um essentially there's a weight cycling. So it becomes a skinny fat situation and they've lost now lean tissue and they put on fat and let's say in a a profile of a decreasing millu her estrogen goes down her testosterone goes down all her hormones go down but then because of this stigma she's ridiculed or shame because now she's on steroids and so in a moment where we have the ability to shift her life and her trajectory she doesn't take it because of all the noise that she's now juicing. >> And that's a that's a problem. >> I didn't even realize the stigma was that significant for women. >> It is. And testosterone for a man is the number one biioarker. There is no other biioarker that reflects the risk of type 2 diabetes that reflects the risk of potential depression. And when you say biomarker, is that like the whole hormone kind of all total tea, free tea, everything? >> Yeah. Well, I mean, so I would say total testosterone because again, it's really free tea, which is a really good point. But if I had to pick one biioarker, it would be testosterone. So, let's say if we take that back to soldiers, if we and we don't routinely screen them, that one biioarker will give us more information into their future than any other biomarker. >> I want to know what's happening with peptide access right now, cuz you were part of this big hearing that recently happened. If you're going to spend an hour in the gym, you might as well look hot and feel comfortable while you're doing it. And honestly, who wants to be in the background of a Tik Tok's highlight reel dressed like a chump? Gym Shark makes some of the best men's and women's training gear on the planet. And something that I realized a few years ago is that when you actually like what you're wearing in the gym, you show up differently, you train harder, you stay longer, and get way more high fives. The hybrid shorts are my go-to. They are the perfect length, super lightweight, easy to wash and dry, and they're sleeveless t-shirts, what I've trained in every day for basically the last decade. They're the ideal fit. They're breathable, they hold their shape perfectly. No more looking like Adam Sandlers, your stylist. Basically, everything they make is unbelievably well-designed. You already know about them. They're high quality. You get 30 days of free returns globally with global shipping and a 10% discount sitewide. So, get that 10% discount by going to the link in the description below or heading to jim.sh/modernwisdom sh/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom10 at checkout. That's jim.sh/modernwisdism and modernwisdom10 a checkout. What what happened inside of the FDA hearing what's going on? >> No, thank you. That's a good question. So, um I've been trying to ring the bell on this since it started. Uh during the Biden administration, the FDA it kind of in a vacuum blindsided the public by putting peptides on the naughty list and said these 17 peptides are now considered dangerous to compound. um meaning overnight the regulatory landscape shifted and so compoundingies like mine legally could not make a safe product that had been in the market oftentimes for more than five six years um and with no heads up like we weren't seeing adverse safety data nothing uh one of the ways that I've tried to prove this is I submitted multiple foyer requests um to the FDA over the last three years and they had not responded to a single foyer request um so when Secretary Kennedy was put into this position and was given the opportunity to try and drive change. This was one of the first things I discussed with him was, hey, we've submitted these foyer requests. I we haven't gotten answers. Industry is just asking for guidance. We're not making this, but you created a gray and black market overnight. And so just two weeks ago, they fedally indicted a gray market peptide manufacturer out of Florida who was buying all of his API from China that was tainted with testosterone. And so women were injecting women were injecting >> and API is the um >> pharmaceutical ingredients. So the the base product that you use to compound the medication. Um so that being said, after a lot of lobbying, begging, pleading, and flights to DC and uh thank God for guys like Joe, I'll say, you know, Rogan's been a voice on this and ringing the bell that hey, why are we banning peptides? Why are we forcing people to gray and black market? We had a hearing. Um, so and that's a crazy story in itself. We could write a book on it. Literally, they had the the group built out. Um, we submitted over 800 studies, 800 p 5,000 pages of documents. Um, we did a retrospective analysis of 16 million patients that were on BPC 157. Out of that, we found three adverse events. Three adverse events. >> Yeah. Somebody sent me that pair by the hundreds of thousands of of uses of multiple peptides including BPC and like the the number of adverse events was close to zero. >> Correct. Almost >> versus let's look at this is one of the largest retrospective analysis ever done of a medication. And so I want to be clear because another famous influencer clinician just took to the internet and tried to debunk this hearing. Uh the hearing wasn't about efficacy. We this is what this is a confusion for people. all about safety because what people fail to realize again going back to the process and the legal structure >> if you file for a new drug indication what I am asking you for is to give me Medicare Medicaid tryare dollars I'm asking you to force employers to cover a treatment for an employee because 90% of Americans get their coverage through employers and so that's the reason insurance plans go up every year because they're monetizing all this stuff and so this is not that world this is a cash pay product for a patient using their hard-earned money to decide under the supervision of a clinician to f fulfill this prescription through a board-certified pharmacy that is inspected by both the state and federal government. And we had a safe pathway and that pathway was removed in a vacuum with no evidence. And then we went and argued with evidence, submitted over 5,000 pages of studies and the FDA in in this environment gave these clinicians literally like a week to review everything. So these doctors, these poor doctors are trying to cram for the test before they come in here. and we had submitted it a month in advance. And then the FDA releases a statement to the public with a black market peptide API data set saying we are going to stand against this most likely even if these clinicians vote yes. And by the way, here's a certificate of analysis from a compounding pharmacy. It wasn't a compounding pharmacy. It was a [ __ ] black market manufacturer that had already been shut down. >> So it was very misleading. That's a difficult question to ask. I don't. Again, we when we sat in there, the clinicians began to get so frustrated that at one point one of the FDA individuals said, "Hey, look, I just want to be clear. We're not intentionally hiding or misrepresenting data." And the clinician was basically saying, "Well, yeah, it really feels like that. Like, it doesn't feel like you were giving us a shot at this." They ended up overturning six out of the seven peptides. >> And what was disappointing, though, is the FDA all voted straight line one way. the clinicians that use these products and are actually clinicians end users in the medical space all voted straight line yes and it was like >> but here >> clear which pathways they were on >> and this is a really good point because maybe you can clear this up is that physicians practicing physicians will say well why are there no randomized control trials yeah why is this data mechanistic data why rodent models animal models if you can prove it mechanistically then we should be able to see it in some type of randomized control trial And I think that >> yeah that's that's great a great so actually on BPC we submitted I think four or six human studies I can't remember I don't want to tell let's say four to be safe at least four human studies now the issue with a peptide is you cannot patent something that is readily available in nature that's patent law in the United States so look at what's going on with the GLP1s a 503A patient specific pharmacy can compound a GLP-1 weight loss drug it is infuriating the big pharmaceutical cartels because They're like, "Wait a second. We spent billions of dollars to make these drugs." And so, a lot of the pressure on peptides as a class has come because big pharma is monetizing these at a new level. And so, in one breath, you've got these big pharmaceutical companies telling the FDA, "These are dangerous. These are this, these are that." In the next breath, Eli Liy goes and spends $7 billion to acquire a peptide manufacturer out of China. Mercur is attempting to patent over 200 potential future cutting peptides. But but but a lot of the physicians who are or were prescribing peptides, they they have a pathway via an IRB to be able to start to gather data, right? to to actually show what's actually working in >> FDA and D and so and this is the general gist of the FDA stance from what I can gather being at this I testified and gave my two cents on what I think and where we are and how we got here but the general rebuttal of the FDA as a stance is well we have an IND process so go get a new drug indication and my rebuttal is apothecary preeds big pharma the founder of Fizer was a compounder Compounding has been in existence for over a hundred years. In 1997, Congress passed a bill to protect compounders that said we are going to allow the patients and clinicians to prescribe unique medications to a patient and provide accessibility. And the problem is if we hand the keys to the castle over to industry and I I said this in my speech to the Senate if Eisenhower everyone talks about Eisenhower's speech and the military-industrial complex. The second half of Eisenhower's speech he talked about the scientific industrial complex and what would happen if we hand science over to industry and if we allow industry to control our scientific processes and protocols and that is where we are headed and that is terrifying because what you will have is everyone getting the same dose GLP1. You're going to have everyone getting the same because this is what we have a double blind placebo control trial on. And this is where academia drives me mad because when Rogan posted his pictures of plasma feresis, some [ __ ] doctor like talks about how it wrecks the immune system. No, this is a 24-hour decrease in your immune response. And he talked about how there's no this is not this is pseudocience. Plasma feresis does have a double blind placeboc controlled randomized trial. And that double blind placebo randomized trial showed that it actually took 18 months off of your biological age on people over the age of 50. But people want to split hairs and decide when they want to use double blind placebo control triandrandomized trials and when they don't. >> Well, here's what I've seen in medicine. >> But this is what is so relevant here is that there's a need for improved care and because there's a need that's why people are reaching for peptides. That's why people are looking for plasma feresis. Typically the consumer the patient will drive forward say plasma feresis for something that is different than say myastinia gravis or something that is an indication but this is how we start to grow. I mean before no one thought mold was a thing. I moved to New York. I got really sick and no one was talking about mold whatever 15 years ago and all my blood work was great and I was living in you know stocky botus and now environmental testing is more of a thing but there is the patient and then there's the need that we have to fulfill and hopefully the science catches up. The idea of randomized control trials I mean they're valuable. We still need that for peptides. Maybe not within your sphere, but the general medical community, they need randomized. >> My my argument is this is an this is about medical access accessibility and medical freedom. And if a patient under the supervision of a clinician under the guidance of a subject matter expert wants to utilize a compound that is safe, who is the federal government to obstruct a safe pathway and force them to a dangerous pathway? And if people love randomized control trials, I would say let's look at the products that have hit the market. What happened with Oxycottton? What happened with all of the anti-inflammatories? What happened with anti-depressants? In the second largest retrospective study analysis of a drug that went through randomized control trials, what did we see 25 years later? What we saw is anti-depressants don't [ __ ] work. They work for a small subset of the population. They barely differentiate from placebo. Yet they increased suicidal ideiation, uh suicidal tendencies, uh violent thoughts, uh most of the school shooters were on anti-depressants. We have created a colossal disaster for a product that in its own scale that was developed from a Fizer consultant does not differentiate barely by one point from placebo. But yet, we spent trillions of dollars on these medications. >> Service announcement brought to you by Saffron. Who gets to decide how much risk people should be able to take with their bodies? Like should the FDA protect people from making bad medical decisions or like at what point basically how much evidence should be required before adults can access experimental treatment? >> That's a difficult one. I think it's riskreward. I say this with everything. Again, every peptides are not a silver bullet, right? They're a tool in the tool belt. But for somebody who's a real world example is um Brett Brett Favre. He he's diagnosed with Parkinson's. This Parkinson's is terminal. It is progressive. The doctors basically say we've got nothing. But there are things that can help that have a shot at helping. And a lot of those trials are in uh other countries and not accepted here. But there are modalities that he's getting benefits from and those modalities are being obstructed. And so it I believe in a patient's right to choose. And one of the things we're working on here in Texas, uh, Senator or SEC, sorry, Congresswoman Lacy Hull is going to submit a bill in Texas that's going to be called the Right to Try Act. And the Right to Try Act is going to try and provide patients in Texas with medical freedom. And we're trying to do the same thing at the federal level. The the belief is through citizens petitions, if you're a chronically ill patient or you have a terminal disease or you have some sort of catastrophic debilitating issue, why is the government stopping you from using a stem cell product? Why is the government stopping you? You have this is the end of your runway. >> Beyond a threshold of severity in terms of your health, you're allowed to throw anything that you want at the wall within reason. >> I I think you should. That's my >> So, a lot of that would still be out of pocket though, right? >> All of it's out of pocket. Yeah. None of this would be covered by insurance, which goes back to the main crux of the issue. Like if somebody wants to spend their cash, >> right, >> to sun their, you know, like who are you to tell? >> If I if I want to fly to Thailand for I can do it. >> Yeah. >> I just got to pay for myself. >> When people are leaving the country to go get treatments and it's like these treatments should be available here. >> We don't need big brother impacting every decision. And I get like protecting the consumer, but where was that protection with glyphosates? Where was that protection with the anti-depressants, with the oxycottton, with the level of corruption we've seen from our regulatory bodies that are supposed to be here to protect us, right? And those people are swapping spit oftentimes with industry at a level that's not nauseating where >> but it's challenging because you might be doing something in a way that is ethical, but if you've got another uh compounding pharmacy like in Florida where they're putting all this crap and how do we protect the people? I do believe in medical agency that people should have the freedom to do whatever they want. If they want to use a medication because they have 5 lbs to lose, they should be able to get to choose. We should not as physicians ever dictate what an individual wants to do. There has to be agency. But then the question is, how do we protect the people that don't know and think they're getting one thing? >> I think we have to assess it as a different model. That's where I keep going with this. There's the insurance model and then there's the cash pay model. And in the cash pay model, we don't need a new drug indication that costs $300 to a billion dollars because it's going to stifle and limit innovation. And that entire model was built around a framework that was built by industry that has a reason to build a moat around accessibility of care because they are monetizing chronic disease at an astronomical level. That's why the average American in the 80s was on one prescription drug and now the average American's on four or more prescription drugs and everybody's made but we're the sickest country developed nation in the world. >> So in a perfect world for you like in a cash pay model there would be right to try in every state. I think right to try and under the supervision of a clinician that's an important caveat like I believe in just personally a doctor holding me back >> I believe in I believe in the sacred relationship of a patient and clinician I believe that most clinicians when given the opportunity want to do what is right for their patient and often times their hands are tied >> and they will go true >> I like even you you were very weary to say >> I have a patient who's sick but I don't want to prescribe off label because it puts your license at risk. But that's a travesty because that patient needs help and we shouldn't have to look over our shoulder. >> I remember um this was during co I had written a prescription for an indication for ivormectin for something. This was before it was all crazy and I got a letter saying that if I ever did this again that it would affect my license address >> but it but also this person we test for parasites all the time. There was an indication M but whatever they didn't care whether I put that indication >> they shut us down as a pharmacy they sent us a letter saying they would revoke our pharmacy license in the state of Texas Ivormectin if we ship one more prescription of ivormectin that they would shut down our I can ship ketamine >> but >> I'm not allowed to ship you sh I have a horse though right >> but can you imagine as a provider being restricted being told that >> it's crazy >> that I can't write a a script for a >> that can help someone >> but who they they don't know what I'm treating we treat parasites all the time and it was just it's terrifying cuz providers, clinicians, we spend our lives dedicated to be able to care for people. >> Talking about experimental forward thinking stuff, getting into some fun things. What are the most exciting interventions that you've come across recently? Some of the most experimental things that you've been playing around with. >> Oh man, I mean, uh, we were just talking about plasma feresis. That's an interesting one just because there's all sorts of different blood and plasma filtration protocols that people are turning to for microlastics, for lipid management, for mold. >> Can you explain the plasma? Like Yeah. like like literally like pull pulling pulling your your your blood out, filtering the plasma, replacing typically with uh either albumin or in some cases like actual human plasma or like um Bighgam has this this soup of like stem cells and exoomes and all sorts of cool stuff that you can get put in. Um and so the idea is it's like an oil change for the body. Um and uh you know there there's even places uh like in in Mexico and Europe that will do blood filtration, not just plasma. Uh different filtration mediums that are designed for different purposes like there's a heperin based filter that is designed for spike protein, right? Like like a like a sticky fly trap for spike protein uh for something like longcoid. Uh there's another one called the marker filter that is for microplastics. That's a a specific filtration medium for that. Um, so that's one that uh a lot of people are like electively doing out of pocket a lot of times internationally like TP like you can literally do that at Bergam's clinic. Like you can do a basic plasma feresis very easily, you know, depending on on how many times you're squeezing the little rubber ball that you get to hold two, you know, four, five hours, but you're just basically sitting in a chair getting >> and then the problem with that though is like when that was what I was alluding to earlier when a guy like Joe posts that immediately it's like >> this is my moment for these clinicians and they just tag his video and throw it up and they're trying to just riff and like coast off of the momentum that he created for it debunking it, right? And this is where I get it's like you're an academic. You're now trying to debunk a a placebo controlled randomized trial. Like at what point do we like pick pick a side? Do you believe in randomized control or do you not? You know, like >> Well, presumably they're saying that they have contrary data to the first randomized control trial. >> Well, his his main thing is uh there's only one major study that demonstrated this and the rest is anecdotal. Um but they've used plasma feresis in hospital systems for >> decades use so plasma feresis. So plasma is where they believe that the antibodies, so for example, if someone has a reaction to something within their body, depending on what the disease is, it exists within the plasma. It's concentrated somehow. Again, I'm not an immunologist, but to the best of my knowledge, within this plasma, it's also where toxins and all this other stuff live that say wouldn't be able to be excreted by the body through urine or feces or sweat naturally. So plasma feresis is used in hospitals to this day where they use it for things that are you know extreme >> burn victims anyone who's been exposed to a level of mold and toxins. The real world example too would be again jelly roll like I hate to keep saying it but he because he lost so much weight. He was chronically inflamed. Even though we were doing a ton of things to bring down his inflam all of that weight loss you can only sweat it out so much. You can only excrete it so many ways. It ends up putting a major load on the kidneys and the >> and a lot of it back to like and then it started impacting his sleep and then as soon as we run him through plasma feresis he calls me. He's like, "Bubba, whatever the hell y'all just did, I have I have not slept this great in years." >> Yeah. People talk about like a sauna for, you know, do do the natural version, just sweat it out. But, I mean, if you look at the size of of a microplastic, they range like the unit of measurement is a Dalton. And so, the size of a microplastic ranges anywhere from like slightly under 100 to uh up to a thousand dotons. And what a sweat gland can actually pass through is like 100 doltons. So arguably maybe onetenth of the microplastic exposure that you have you can actually sweat out in a sauna. And considering that most of the microplastics for example in the food supply like a plastic packaging or drinking out of a cup in Starbucks are way larger than 100 dolins you just can't get rid of that in the sauna. Like it's an inconvenient truth. But if it's getting into your body at this point it's pretty difficult to remove it. There are there are some gut binders. There's probably like 10 different supplement companies cuz I' like Yeah. Just over the past few months, people have been like mailing me whatever like a sulfurophane based compound for microplastic removal or some other like binding uh binding stack that supposedly removes it from the gut and possibly via some sort of osmotic gradient from the tissue as well, but none of those are that proven. And so, so that's an example of like, well, at some point you just got to filter it out. The problem with that is it's, you know, it's it's a long and expensive protocol that not everybody's going to do, >> but eventually maybe there will be a way to democratize it. We've seen that with a lot of medical. >> That's the goal with all of this is to make it affordable for the masses. >> Mhm. >> And I think the biggest thing I've seen >> I think we should on Shark Tank like to suck it and just I've never seen that. >> How long does it take your body to replace the plasma? Because I think this is one of the concerns. You've got this period of time. You've gotten rid of all of this plasma. You immediately. Well, what what we'll do is we'll we'll add back in albumin and so you immediately have that replenishment. The big critique is or what people have tried to critique is there is a drop in a in your immune system, but the truth is that drop is for 24 hours. So, we were just talking to one of your buddies and he just did it, but then he got on a flight. I was like, "Oo man, I would not have done that." >> And what happened? Did he get sick? >> He felt run down and not that. There's also the risk of the the catheter depending on where that is placed. having like like a rupture or an issue, >> but you have a compromised immune system for 24 hours. So that is a legitimate risk. And this is again anything in medicine, you have that discussion. You make sure you tell that patient for the next 24 hours, you will have a compromised immune system. And then after that, your immune response is boosted and all of that inflammation that was in that in in your plasma is removed and all of those shock proteins and all these different things that are causing so many issues. We're basically taking out the trash and replacing years and years of inflammation and gunk and with albumin. Young clean albumin. >> What'sin? >> It It's literally a Yeah. It's just a protein that instant people >> same thing like think about egg white. Egg white has a ton of elbumin in it. It's just basically you're putting egg white. Yeah. I mean very very similar. Yeah. >> Okay. What are the strongest longevity interventions that are costf free because much of this stuff sounds maybe difficult to access. people are outside of the country. >> Yeah. Epidemiologically, yes, lifting grip strength is often identified as a metric. But it's not because people who have like big meaty hands live longer. It's because people who who who lift heavy objects and do some type of manual labor or artificial manual labor inside of a gym tend to have high grip strength as a byproduct of that. So, you're not going to live longer by having like a handgrip dynometer in your car that you're squeezing all the time. it'll make a little bit of a difference, but physical activity that exhaust the grip would be one. Uh V2 max is another. And I think the the misperception is that you need to do like these like fancy Norwegian 4x4 protocols to significantly increase V2 max, meaning like 4 minutes maximum sustainable pace, balls to the wall, 4-minute recovery, four times through as a sample prescribed protocol for V2 max. I mean, just yesterday there was a study that came out that showed that small bursts anywhere from 3 to five times a week of 10 to 20 seconds had an impact on V2 max. So the these are like tiny bursts like like on an a dime just quick. >> Do you think V2 max or muscle mass is more important when it comes to training for longevity? If you could pick one. Uh, I would I would choose if I had to pick one, I would choose muscle mass because I think low muscle mass I'm not just saying this because Gabriel's sitting next to me at a higher risk for frailty and I think frailty is one of the like not being able to outrun a lion is less likely to kill you than like stepping off the curb and and being frail like with the V2 max equation. Like joking aside, yes, V2 max can have a significant impact on cardiovascular health, but you can get pretty good cardiovascular health, uh, including blood pressure management with strength training. So, if I had to choose one, it's an unrealistic scenario anyways based on how easy it is to to do max. You do both. And then the last one that I would name is like a free intervention. Uh if we're not going to talk about like Harvard's longest running study on longevity on, you know, happiness, relationships, love, all of that boring esoteric stuff aside, I would be walking speed. Um yes, 7,000 to 8,000 steps a day is advisable, but the actual speed of walking, the the the pace, like the the actual cadence of the walking is important. So, V2 max grip strength and walking speed would be the specific walking speed. >> Uh, I don't remember the actual like pace based on uh whatever you would measure quicker than you might think. The way I think about it is like walk slightly faster than what your brain wants to do. There there was I don't know if it's still available a device called a counterpace like a heart rate strap that you could wear that tied to ear pods that tracks your heart rate and then helps you maintain a cadence that matches that heart rate so that your foot strike is occurring during the diastolic phase of the heart pumping. So you're essentially like teaching your heart how to pump with each step. >> So that's very similar like counter pulsation therapy they would do at a at a hospital uh for for like post heart attack. Uh but the idea is just like when you're walking try to walk. >> It's like resonance breathing but resonance walking. >> Kind of like that. Yeah. >> You're up and down with the breath but this you're step in step with the heartbeat. That's fine. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Those would be three. >> I think if if you were to to look at the V2 max versus muscle mass thing, if you were to say somebody is a a five out of 10 on both, where would you stop? because it seems to me that the muscle mass thing is largely talking about uh being protective in later life, frailty, falls, hip replacements, stuff like that, metabolic health. >> Yeah. Um I don't know. I just coming from the background of being such a bro, V2 max was never anything that anybody really considered and it seems like that's really had the ascendancy recently. >> Yeah. And it gets chased a lot as a number. It's largely reflective of cardiovascular health. I mean, it's definitely like if you're competing as like I don't iron man marathon or swimmer or whatever like V2 max is is important as a performance metric, but the reason that it tracks with longevity is not necessarily because maximum oxygen utilization is going to help you live longer. At least I don't think that. I think it's because it's reflective of overall cardiovascular health. In the same way that grip strength, you know, having strong hands, I can hold on to something for a long period of time isn't going to make you live longer. for what you got you those strong hands is what >> everything everything Ben's saying is like that's when I again go back to what you do what we do comparing it to traditional medicine somebody comes in the first thing we do is comprehensive blood work that's one tool in the one assessment but we also run them through a dexa and then we do a V2 max a walking V2 max to assess their cardiovascular condition you give me those three things I put it into the AI algorithm I cross reference all of that and we begin to model out all cause mortality and I and begin to project if you're headed towards a chronic disease. So like in traditional medicine, somebody shows up sick, you write them a pill, somebody gets it, you you mask the symptom. And it's like, but why aren't we just practicing proactive predictive medicine? Um like what you're doing in your practice. You can prevent 1.7 million Americans are dying every year of chronic disease. That's more than every war we've ever fought in the history of America in a year. And it's all preventable. >> But it's not longevity. And I I wish there was another name for it because the reality is and I I think >> I think it's health span. >> I I think it's muscle span but yes health span. But I think um you know as a geriatrician which means I've taken care of a lot of dying people that there is a one harsh reality and that is nobody gets out alive. No one. And so is this, you know, increase in longevity just a distraction from the end result which is that we will all die and at some point we have to recognize that that it's going to happen. It is how we live within that time frame. And you know maybe there's a genetic push past 85. We don't know. I mean there's genetic genetics play a role. We know some people that smoke and eat tacos and live to be 105. So, um, yes, being strong, being capable, not restricting protein. I know that you had a guest that was talking about protein restriction. That's that's, uh, not where I would say that the >> not a lot of people need to hear that right now. >> My argument is always if we can buy you time, I would say if we can buy your health span time, keep you healthy longer. There are folks like David Sinclair, my buddy Dr. Ian White. Ian's 22 years stem cell research at Harvard at the bench. And those are interesting. What he'll break down is pretty crazy. And this is why I have dinosaurs and jellyfish at our clinic because I was wondering about that. >> He literally breaks down that we share a common ancestor with every species on Earth. We share DNA with the eternal jellyfish. Within us is a blackbox code. And there are companies in Texas right now that are doing gene activation. And we can literally inject you with a a virus that will go turn on a gene that has been turned off. Right? We can tell your body to put on more muscle. we can turn on a gene that can increase bone mineral density eightfold. Um, these things exist today. And so my only thing getting more into the biohacking woowoo like futuristic is can we buy you time? Can we through >> common pract not the woo woo is through just good old bread and butter smart medicine buy you health span until one of these brilliant people crack the code of how do we turn on that gene? How do we turn on the jellyfish >> jellyfish gene where we all live for 150 years floating water in the dark? >> Aging is not abnormal. The idea that we're not going to a I mean aging is normal, but the chronic disease that's not normal. That's not a normal part of aging. And we've come to normalize all of that and that's a problem. >> Yeah. >> So, if we stop stigmatizing testosterone >> and allow us to replace the things that we need >> Yeah. >> then >> Yeah. Well, well, perhaps there's a through line here because uh if you downregulate fertility enough and don't have children, that might be a viable life extension strategy. Uh sending a message to your your lizard brain that you better stick around as long as possible because you have no progyny. So once you're gone over, you got to hold. >> So yeah, basically pro Yeah, I would say the most significantly potentially significantly uh impactful life extension strategy not having kids. Don't have kids. >> Don't jerk off. Don't have kids. Okay. What do you make about the criticism? So Dr. Daniel Lieberman who came on the show and I asked him about what's he think the current recommendations coming out of I guess our side of the world around 1 gram per pound 1 gram kilo per kilo to 1 gram per pound of body weight for protein. And he just sort of looked and was like I think it's overblown. I don't think that people need that much. I it doesn't really seem to make that much sense to me from a longevity standpoint. There doesn't seem to be that much evidence. I've looked at every every big diet on the planet. Um, >> that's interesting. You wasn't invited to the protein working group, >> which was all the hundred finest scientists, protein scientists, and they disagreed on some things and they agreed on others. I don't know this gentleman, so it's not a knock to him. But in this room, these were the finest protein researchers from all over. >> Would that not mean that they're kind of biased? >> They don't all get along. >> So, some of them are low protein researchers. So well yes they are all the protein experts. Some agree on uh 1.1 some I mean they're all over the place. So what they do is they present the evidence to the best of the their ability the all the evidence that have been done. Um and what they came up with is that there is no evidence that going below the minimum requirement has benefit at all >> going 0.55 g per pound. argued is it could you go from one is 1.1 better than 1.4 potentially is anything better than 1.6 grams. No, no one agreed that. So that's not one gram per pound >> protein cycling though like like like the idea from like an autophagy standpoint of like a fasting mimicking diet on a quarterly basis or a period of protein restriction to simulate stimulate autophagy and then most of the time you're actually eating what are the 0.8 to 1.2 g. So to be clear, I was not invited there as a guest researcher, but I was there interviewing these guys. And one of the things that was interesting is that in terms of human trials, it seems as though the sweet spot for aging and optimal health to find that as you will is closer to 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kg. So it's not one gram per pound, which is what I recommend. It's slightly below that. Um, and what you're talking about is this idea of protein cycling. So, the body turns over 250 to 300 gram of protein a day. As we age, we become less efficient at that. Liver turnover, all of this stuff. As we age, if we then begin to restrict protein, this is not moving in a positive direction. And all the aging, there's no aging data in humans that would suggest that that would be beneficial. >> It's his argument that we're over. We are not the data doesn't >> I was going to say because most people I feel like everyone I know doesn't >> I think he was making epidemiological case >> or observational or association >> if if I know that the Liberman you're talking about that you don't come across a lot of long lived cultures who are feeding at the levels that are currently recommended you know by by you know a cook like this >> here's what's >> I'd like to keep it simple stupid because my brain's not smart enough to figure all this out >> I did give you my which has pictures. >> Yes. And I've read I've read and but what I >> tried to color them in. That's why I wasn't >> Yeah. I thought it was a coloring book. I >> to be fair my the Forever Strong playbook I will give it a plug. It took me two years to write and it has pictures to make it simple and stupid >> and it's digestible. I love I love it. And my my main thought was actually ate it >> is we Yeah. If we priorit I've learned in my life if I prioritize protein it is a caloric dense nutrientrich >> Yeah. aspect of my diet and I will eat less of the ultrarocessed, less of all the bad things. Just anecdotally, I'm not saying there's no science behind what I'm saying. I'm just looking at it going if I prioritize protein, it fills me. It It fills my appetite on protein. I can't It's hard to overeat. >> Yeah. If I eat a steak, I'm done. >> Yeah. >> Like so. Do you not see a value in >> or would he not see a value in prioritizing protein first as part of your diet? You're you're you're you're arguing for the benefits of protein intake as a calorie restriction mechanism. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> And do you know >> I imagine I imagine you would I imagine you would do too. I think my question was something like what do you think about one gram per pound of body weight? Oh that's on the higher end. Yeah. >> That see that seems to be more than is necessary. I >> I would agree with that statement. That is more than is necessary. >> I mean it depends too. Like I have 18-year-old sons and they're probably hitting 1.4 4 to 1.5 g per pound right now based on my grocery bill. Um, but they're also highly anabolic. They're growing like we are lifting every day. So, uh, it's it's pretty population specific. >> What about >> that is exactly what they came to in the summit. >> What about fiber? Because I I'm I've been pretty good at sort of licking my finger, putting it in the air, and working out what way the wind's blowing. I think the protein thing everyone could see a little while ago. Creatine. I was early on creatine. I was early on uh water quality. I think air quality stuff like uh Jasper and mold I think that's going to be a huge thing next after that I think is going to be light light quality and light pollution I think and it's slowly sort of trickling through the echelons of of of health. Fiber to me seems to be just about sort of taking that it's at the hockey stick moment here and I get the sense that protein and fiber are going to be a little antagonistic to each other when it comes to designing a diet. So, I'm interested in what you guys think when it comes to fiber, optimizing gut health. Everyone gives a [ __ ] about bloating and digestion, leaky gut. >> That's exactly is I I don't think that that uh high protein intake necessarily rules out fiber, but what you were just saying is the one thing that flies under the radar. Yes. uh fiber um is is beneficial for everything from glycemic variability to bowel movements to uh the the microbiome and the fact that it's it's often a food for uh probiotics leading to postbiotic production. The issue is the large number of the population that has issues like small intestine bacterial overgrowth or diverticulitis or some form of of of IBS or an issue that results in them hearing that the giant ass kale salads are a really good idea and that they should put a bunch of spinach in their smoothies and it just totally fed them over and they're painting the back of the toilet seat. So, I I think that it depends again on like what the gut biome looks like and what someone's especially like like the gas production by specific bacteria in the gut looks like before you decide what kind of fiber someone should be on or the fermentable nature of that fiber like inulin and chory root and [ __ ] like that completely screws some people over as far as gas and bon and then for other people it's great gut food. It feels like fiber is much more uh individually variable that you could probably look at most people and say, "Yeah, if you had like one gram per kilo of body weight of protein, like you'd probably be all right." Whereas, yeah, if you threw a bunch of oxalates at one person from spinach that's not being cooked, they're going to have a very different response to somebody else who doesn't have that kind of gut microfllora. >> Yeah, I think that's I think that is a frontier that we don't know enough about. >> My prediction is the food matrix conversation is next. the bro bodybuilding sphere. We're great. There's I guess I would include myself in there. Boiled chicken, egg whites. We know what the protein is. We know the macros, rice, chicken, but what we don't know is how, for example, there was a study that came out on highfat dairy. We don't actually understand how the fat in dairy, the compounds then work with the protein and the carbohydrates within that food matrix. It's not repeatable. It's not supplementation. It is within the dynamic of say for example a steak. Yes has protein. Yes has B vitamins but it has an searine torine. It has these other what you imagine as a phytonutrient and plant. >> It has its own carne nutrient and it's how those all fit together. We don't really know how the foods all work together. Is it possible for you guys to give general advice when it comes to fiber and eating for gut health through a diet? Because it seems again this fingerprint each person's flora is slightly different. Da da da da da. What are the we can say hey one gram per kilo of body weight protein that's probably a good baseline. Can you give me equivalent baselines when it comes to fiber intake for humans who just want to have good diet? >> Well, I can cheat here because I'm a doctor. So we test. We don't guess. We do stool tests. We do breath tests. We do tests. So if you have small intestinal bacteria overgrowth, we would treat that. We would put you on a diet that was essentially low FODMAP. So there's there's ways that you can experiment, but also test. So you're guessing less. >> And low low FODMAP isn't necessarily synonymous with low fiber, but you're literally limiting fruans, olosaccharides, disaccharides, uh what else? Uh monossaccharides and polyals. And so these are specific compounds that if you were to Google high FODMAP diet, you would want to avoid because those are sources of fiber that would cause gas and bloating. But that doesn't mean that you can't eat fiber at all. You can do like like on a low-fat mod diet, you can do like chia seed slurry, right? Like put a bunch of chia seeds in water, soak them, have that as like a pudding. Um uh a lot of times like seeds and nuts, you know, the fiber and the skin in those that would also be acceptable. But then like apples, pears, garlic, onions, all that stuff would be out. And in some cases like mixed greens, romaine lettuce, like a lot of things you have in salad, those are fine. You know, kale, it kind of depends cuz then there's the whole thing you brought up which is like is oxalate sensitivity an issue? So Gabriel makes a great point. It's like we now live in an era where you could get like a GOVA diagnostic stool test. You could get a Trio Smart, you know, a SIBO breath test and see if you're reactive to certain fiberbased foods. Those tests are not like we can't just give this hey breathe into a tube every 20 minutes for a couple hours. >> What you could say is like have 40 grams of fiber a day or more and if you have gas or bloating when you start doing that, go get tested to figure out what's causing the gas and bloating. >> Yeah, we always say yes, but like I always say yes, but like yes, this is a good rule of thumb, but there's always outliers. Everybody's different. Personalized medicine should take a personalized touch to do that. It requires the analytics and the data to have the knowledge of you specifically and you're a unique individual. So, let's look at you as a unique individual and tailor a unique program. And it sounds like almost that's what you were both saying. >> This is why people feel overwhelmed by health in the modern world cuz they're like, "Oh, well, I've got to go and get this [ __ ] special fingerprint thing done and I don't know where to go or maybe I'm in a country that can't provide it or maybe I'm going to have to pay out of pocket and I can't afford it and then I've got to do it and then I've got to adjust all that stuff." I mean there there there are workarounds and there are levels like for example with what we're talking about with the with the the FODMAP and the SIBO issue. There's like an atome breath testing device called a food marble and that gets a pretty decent coral area. It's not as good as like a more expensive lab-based test but it can help you to keep track of primarily the fiber-based foods that would cause something like bloating. The other thing is just simple food elimination. Right? You guys know this is the old school tactic for well let's cut everything out. Let's start from scratch. And you're going to add steak and chicken and fish and maybe some sweet potato mash. Kind of like a paleoesque type of approach. And then you could start to add in some grain, some dairy, some different forms of fiber. And you're going to get to the point where you can identify within like four weeks. >> An app, right, to track what was it. >> You use an app. I mean, you you can easily use like a clott or GPT model now to literally say, okay, here's everything I ate. Here's my gas and bloating symptoms. And within 4 weeks, you're going to get a pretty good map of the culprits. doesn't have to be complicated to be effective and we live in the information overload and that's the disease. The disease is distraction. >> We can fully simplify. People know what works well for them. If they don't, they can track it. >> But you eliminate, you keep it simple and you add things in slowly. I think we over complicate. >> Yeah, that's what we were say. That's kind of where I was going with the protein is is I say don't let you know pro don't let perfection get in the way of progress and it's baby steps. You don't have to be perfect. Just be better. Make slightly better choices. Test things out. Like you're not going to die if you try a a fiber and it doesn't work out for you and you're bloated and have stomach upset for >> There was a pear bezor someone ate. It was something like 300 pears and they actually got a you know the hair hair ball of a >> um it's actually called a pear bezor and it created a small bowel obstruction. >> Who the [ __ ] eats 300 pairs? >> There's one case. I think 300 anything is going to cause a small bow instruction. >> I could easily get 300 blueberries. >> I will take on the small bowel obstruction challenge. I I could make it happen. Do you guys follow a specific diet? >> It's called the Forever Strong playbook. >> What What is it? >> No. No. Um so it's a higher protein diet. I don't eat a ton of processed food at all. Um prioritize protein. We make it very simple. I have two crazy kids. >> What about grains, dairy, like a lot of the stuff that that people I think we're starting to see that it has uh protective effects. We do highfat dairy, fermented foods. Um the one thing that we don't eat is a ton of packaged processed foods. Yeah. >> Be aside from like beef sticks, >> but it's we'll eat sweet potato, we'll eat rice. I'm not a low carb person. >> Yeah, it sounds sounds very like western a priceish where like grains aren't eliminated, but they need to be like fermented or soaked or sprouted. Dairy is like the full fat varietal. >> Good meats. Yeah. >> Fermented vegetables. >> Where have you come into land now, Ben? Obviously, you've experimented. >> Um, I'm I'm pretty close to a paleo diet with a lot of fermented vegetables that like I like most of my carbohydrates are like underground storage uh organs like sweet potato, yam, purple potato, berries, and honey. Uh most of my vegetables are kimchi, sauerkraut. Um and then a lot of hunted wild game meat. uh super clean fish that is farmed, not wild caught. So, I know the exact sourcing and and that it's clean, what it's been fed, um steak, chicken, poultry, or um um pastured pork. And then I do like my dessert is typically uh coconut yogurt. Like I go through that uh what's it called? Coco June. >> So good. >> Oh my gosh, the brand. Coco June, blueberries, dark chocolate is not only my dessert, but I've eaten twice today and that was my meal was just cocoa June, blueberries, dark chocolate. Uh, and then and then a little bit macadamia nuts, Brazil nuts, and uh, that's pretty much it. >> Where are you? >> Besides all the peptides, >> where are you getting your fish from? >> Uh, company called Ctopia. They've got like 30 plus different farms around the world and they very tightly control what the fish is fed. They are tested for things like microlastics, uh, parasites, and then they flash freeze and ship to your house. And they've got a pretty good varietal just like or king salmon and halibit, uh, some shellfish, scallops, uh, and it's the cleanest stuff I could find. >> What was that steak company that you >> And I hope they've got a check in the mail now to me. Uh the the insane. >> Okay, so it's this crazy breed of cattle that originates from the Middle East [ __ ] rules. >> No more Montes kind of. So this breed of cattle originated from the Middle East and a they have the myosatin knockout gene meaning they've got this like unparalleled muscle growth big Arnold Schwarzeneggeresque cows. The result of that is that the muscle fiber thickness is like 1/16th the diameter of a normal like Angus cow. So it's super digestible. Like a medium rare is like 95°. That's how fast it cooks. But then these cattle have also developed based on their origination sweat glands which is also something that is less common but one of the key contributors to um to offflavored or tough meat in general whether it's hunted meat or farmed meat or anything else >> cortisol it's cortisol. So cortisol upregulation causes calcium influx. Basically the you know the effect of sweaty chronic rigor mortise. But a cow that can manage thermal stress eliminates one of the most common sources of cortisol in cattle which is like being subjected to extremes of heat or cold and being unable to deal with it. So these cows wound up in Canada. Uh there was like a Canadian farmer up north on the west side who had like one bull and three cows. Uh a guy a horse farmer in Washington state connected with these folks in Canada like 30 years ago. >> This better be the best. >> Shipped some across the world. >> This is like the Adam and Eve of >> year. A year and a half ago, I get an Instagram message from this farm up by Spokane and they're like, "We have the only 100% pure pediat beef in all of North America and you can only find this stuff now in Italy in the Middle East." I talked to these guys with Angus, which so a lot of the Pedmont is like 7525 or 50/50. >> So then I actually went to the farm. >> Long story short is I'm like, "Was it grass-fed, grass-finish?" They're like, "No, it's like grass-fed, acorn fed, pressed wine, grape skin fed, carrots, >> like customized back customized from birth." And so, so long story short is I got a whole steer and these things are massive. Uh, it I I got it like almost two years ago and I'm still or they store it all at the farm and then they ship to me. So, I'm still ordering off this spreadsheet. Like me and my wife and 18-year-old sons have still not eaten this whole cow. It's like a time chef of food. >> That's the meat. It is. It is the weirdest. >> He drop shipped me some and all I knew because it's so lean. They they butchered it and I'm like I would love to have some of the tallow cuz you know tallow is great to cook with your potatoes with. They're like dude there is no tallow. These things are so lean that there's just like no dripping, no fat whatsoever. When you cook it, I actually use a lot of extra like olive oil, towel, extra or tallow, extra fat because I think the flavor profile when you don't have the fat is just still a little bit too lean. Um, but yeah, that's that's the steak. They're called monzo. >> Yeah. >> So, the the listener or the watcher is thinking, I'm never going to get that cow. You know, I tried to get some of this meat. I couldn't get it. I talked to the founder. I'm like, how many cows do you guys have? VIP. It goes to the the NHL NFL. Yeah, >> they do. Okay. But for the other people, there are meal delivery services. I use one that's only in Texas and Oregon and Denver. Um, and they use there's this company, gosh, what are they? Not Pedmont. What is it? Grazing. There's another one. Well, anyway, >> I don't know. Did the delivery drivers have sweat glands, though? >> But I just say that for someone who's listening. So, anyway, there is a company and it's called My Fit Foods, and they're available in Texas. They use grass-fed, grass-finished. is for those of us that can't get the crazy. >> What about beans? I haven't heard you say anything about beans in your >> They have beans in it. >> Beans do not agree with me. So, I don't want to talk about those. >> Uh, no. It is it is insoluble fiber. >> The whole like blue zones data, which which is rife with with birth record issues and falsified data, but I think you could make a case that legumes and beans in general do provide good fermentable substrate for the microbiome. It's just that in many people, including myself, those bacteria produce massive amounts of gas. Um, I'm not a chili guy. I don't know about you guys, but >> I love I I love chili. I don't know whether it loves me, but it I absolutely love it. >> So, why the fiber? Why are you interested in fiber right now? >> I I just have this prediction seeing what's happening with probiotic fiber at the moment, Lollipop, Poppy, Bloom Pop, that that whole world. Um, looking at what happened with AG1, with companies like Seed, with David Beckham's new thing, IM8, like everybody is, if you want to sell [ __ ] to women, put bloating on the front of a piece of packaging, right? Every woman's worried about bloating. How much of this is just artificial solution to artificial problem? Tons of high calorie, highly processed foods, sugar, fermented foods. Maybe there's some EPG in there or some other [ __ ] going on. Like, whatever it is that's happening, it's causing people to feel digestively off. And now they're looking for what the solution is. I I we've already been through the protein revolution. Creatine revolution is happening now. I I already know. I think people are now buying more fiber supplements than protein supplements. That was a problem. Paradoxically, fiber contributes to a lot of the issues that you just described. And and I think the the elephant in the room is that one of the primary causes of all of that gas and bloating is lack of digestive enzyme uh production and um uh slowed gastric emptying and most of the things that happen when you eat quickly or in a stressed out state which basically defines a lot of our cultures eating habits. So I I think that like slow slow eating and eating in in a parasympathetic state would be way better for people's gas and bloating than like sucking down a bottle of inulin. >> Did you see that study that came out recently looking at people eat people's eating speed and the GLP1 endogenous GLP1 release? Did you see this? Can you explain it? >> Yeah. So the body releases GLP1 naturally. Typically it rides and I didn't see this study particularly but it rides with protein. So once you get a protein bololis, it should release GLP-1. It should be very short-lived and you should be done. Protein increases satiety through this mechanism. Also, I I believe that there's some fat, but the faster you eat, the faster it gets there. I'm assuming that the GLP1 would have less >> grazing more slowly meant that you got a higher release of GLP-1, which meant that you were more satisfied more quickly. >> Satisfied. But the question, how long does that last? That would not be comparable to a long halflife of a GLP-1. >> Yeah. >> Period. >> I I mean all all I know is that that that if you look at digestive enzyme production and you you look at like vasoc constriction, lack of blood flow to the gut, slowed gastric emptying, like it is better for you to not suck down your superfood smoothie while you're driving 60 miles an hour down the highway on your way to work. And I'd rather just see someone fast or wait until they can actually be in a parasympathetic state to eat. >> What's the current data around fasting? Because it seems to have been bunked and rebunked so many times. Autophagy, maybe it does work, maybe it doesn't work. >> Is it just calorie restriction? Is it an easier route to calorie restriction? Is there something super special about 168 or >> so? So the the basic idea is that when you when you go head-to-head, something like an intermittent fasting study with uh overall calorie restriction, there is no big winner. There's nothing magic about fasting that beats out just like shoving fewer calories into your gaping m. The the advantage is that with a compressed feeding window, it becomes more difficult to eat excess calories. And that's mostly the case until you get past about the 18-hour mark of fasting. Past the 18 hour mark, that's when you start to see cellular autophagy and a lot of these longevity mechanisms kick in. That could make the case for an occasional longer fast. Obviously, like activity level and what kind of anabolic phase of life that you're in, etc. would dictate that. But my recommendation to most men is like a 12 to 16 hour overnight intermittent fast. And every once in a while, go longer than 18 hours, like a 24-hour dinner time to dinnertime fast, like once a month, for example. And then back to that protein cycling, protein restriction thing, something like a quarterly fasting mimicking diet, right? Where where you're slightly underfeeding protein, slightly underfeeding calories, but it's just for a few days to simulate like a a famine type of scenario. Yeah. And then for the reason I said for men is for premenopausal women regularly fasting for longer than 12 hours may have an impact on kispin which is upstream of LH and FSH which are fertility related hormones. And so women closer to the 12-hour mark, guys close to 12 to 16 hours. Uh postmenopausal women would be closer to the 12 to 16 hour mark. Uh but that's that's basically the way that I do fasting is 12 to 16 hours intermittent fast daily quarterly fasting mimicking diet about once a month 24-hour dinner to dinner. >> So you're saying there is something special in the autophagy in the cell clearance intermittent versus grazing and just restriction. >> Uh once you get past 18 hours but in most cases the definition of intermittent fasting is not these like long one to three day fasts. Intermittent fasting is typically like a daily compressed feeding window and usually it tops out at around 16 hours. >> But you think there is some special source in a 24-hour fast? >> There is occasionally. You just have to balance like the anabolic catabolic other ways to do it, you know, through training. There's there's different mechanism stress. Yeah. There's there's other ways. And so if you are somebody who is >> um who is at risk of frailty or you're just trying to get yolked or whatever at risk of frailty listens to this podcast. >> Yeah. That's not true. My mom does. >> She's not at risk of frail. >> This is true. >> Hi, Gabriel's mom. >> What talking about longevity tests? You know, we're looking at the things that people should be paying attention to. Where do you think people are wasting money or effort or time the most either on diagnostic or sort of uh intervention side things for health more generally? Like is there a particular type of test that's widely regarded that people think is [ __ ] And what do you reckon? M I mean there's there's ones that like we even do but it it just gives you more knowledge like the MTFHR but you can do that through process of analysis of elimination like you had said like cutting adapting which supplements you take and using methylated supplements there's is it a necessity? No. If you you could just do that through process of elimination and save the money. I think um and this might be a little bit of a contrarian stance, but I think there is a great deal of emphasis placed right now on cardiovascular risk potential based on either a cardiovascular risk score, right? Do you have high blood pressure, smoking history, family history of cardiovascular disease, etc. And what does your lipid panel look like, right? Not not just like the basic stuff like LDL, HDL, triglycerides, LP little A, apple B. The issue is that that can be a clue but definitely not a telltale sign of actual plaque deposition in the heart. And I am increasingly convinced after seeing so many people come back from their CCTAs like an angography of the heart like a CT scan clear usually with AI based diagnostic imaging clearly hard >> to actually show yes where hard more stable hard plaque which you would typically see in more of like an athletic population who scarred up their heart a little bit or unstable more likely to break loose plaque resulting in a stroke or a heart attack lies right. So the AI based diagnostic imaging can tell you that and the reason that's important is because in many cases people including myself have a pretty good lipid panel right LDL HDL triglycerides yada yada yada but then you do the CT angography and you actually see plaque deposition that if not monitored and addressed either you know alopathically with like a like lotoin or a PCSK9 inhibitor or something similar exactly or um more non-traditionally, right, with with uh enzymes like lumbrokinace, nattokinise. Um there's a new cyclloextrin that's that's that's being in trial right now. Um to actually break down the plaque, you actually could be at risk and not even know it. Or you could alternatively like be on a statin repath or whatever else due to high cholesterol and not even need it because you don't have any plaque deposition. So the idea of like imaging for the heart, you know, indirect answer to your question is like I think myopically focusing on a lipid panel is either a causing people to be prescribed a medication that they might not need or b telling them they're okay when in fact there can be significant plaque at play. >> So you're saying rather than obsessing over lipid panel, you would just go and get a clear list. I think anybody who has a history of hard exercise, anybody who has a family history of cardiovascular disease, I'm not a doctor by the way, don't take this as medical advice. Uh uh I think even like pmenopause uh you know that the risk goes up significantly. >> We always get what you're saying >> should get a CT angography. >> So traditionally, which is really interesting, after men leave the pediatrician, there's no need for them to go to the doctor. For example, women go to OB/GYN, you know, they get a gynecological exam, but men, they leave the Why would you have to go to the doctor? They don't really have a reason, which is a mistake. So, getting a baseline testosterone, baseline cardiovascular testing is great, like your boy's age now, but then not necessarily treating with medication. Having a baseline exam by 40 P I we recommend that you have a baseline heart scan both hard and soft plaque. >> What would be the gold standard for that? >> A clearly >> clearly scann that [ __ ] thing >> cubic millm of natural >> do for muscle. So right now with a dexa I think this is where the future's going right now. We look at a dexa dexa compartmentalizes bone uh body fat percentage and then extrapolates lean body mass but we don't look at muscle quality. You and I have talked about this a lot. We're not imaging routinely muscle quality. I believe they do it in Japan whether through ultrasound or MRI where you see >> you can occasionally see it if you get if you get a treatment done like a stem cell injection of the doctor using ultrasound. You can see the quality of the muscle somewhat uh but but it's not done. >> That's a greater >> that's a greater driver of say insulin resistance than body fat percentage. It's the fat that's in the muscle and we don't image it. >> So you'd be looking at a whole body MRI rather than a DEXA. >> Yes. Yes. I mean, you >> sit still for an hour. There's not that many. >> There's got to be other ways. >> There's a new There's a new one. Did you see the water one? You sit in a basically in a hot tub. >> That mind uh who's develop the AI based company is developing it, right? Yeah. I forget it's called Is it them? >> I don't know quantifiably how well it saw. >> You literally step into water and it uses frequency based mechanisms to do some type of a digital signal that's similar to a full body MRI. >> But that's the future. Yeah, >> I'm telling you that's the future of medicine. You still need a DEXA. >> You still need to look at uh bone density, but looking at the quality of this tissue, I think is you're going to be able to correlate it with insulin resistance and disease outcomes. >> Surprising to me that clearly scans for the people that C L E R L Y um that they're not more widely used when heart disease is like the number one killer. >> They're more expensive. they subject you depending on the speed of the machine to a somewhat significant amount of radiation. >> Um it's fine >> and there's there's still holes in the process like if you got a a CT and angography in 2024 the software algorithm has changed like six times since then. So if you're running the same data through a 2026 uh software that's been updated like the data set is not necessarily going to be similar and most of the time >> request yeah you have to request your raw data and run it back through an old data set. So there's issues but in general um even if it falls into like the concur urgebased medicine category I think more people should be considering a scan like that. >> I don't know how much is you got any idea how much out of pocket it clearly would be grand maybe? Uh yeah, I think it's around that. >> I mean, that's not cheap, but [ __ ] you only you don't need to get it done that much. Get it done 40 years old as a guy. Get a baseline. It's controversial. A a lot of people will correlate. I've seen up to 97% accuracy claims a corateed intimidia thickness score with a CCTA. Meaning using actual ultrasound to look at corateed plaque plaque deposition and based on data sets correlate that to what you'd get from a CTN geography. And that's like a 5minute scan on both sides of your neck. Um it's just it's it's difficult to put a lot of um it's difficult to estimate how powerful that that prediction is. Um but there there are a lot of companies uh unfortunately in the CINT space who claim that is really close to CT and geography. >> But full body MRI which is very controversial. We recommend them. We recommend them. full body MRI. These are early detection screening tools. Um, you'll hear physicians say, "Why would you screen for something? What are you going to do about it?" Well, that's like saying, "I don't want to look under the covers. I'm just going to, you know, hide and put my head in the sand." If you know there's an issue, you want to find it early. >> It can freak you out, though. Like, there are there are certain things, like I have full arthritis, like literally like from my cervical down, >> then have someone else read it for you and have someone else read it for But but like there's a lot of stuff that you you can see and it doesn't necessarily mean that you need surgery. >> Or you know that I need to go get my spine operated on like in my case I do I do Steu Miguel's big three. I hang from the table every do a lot of plank training. Take care of my spine. I always have a giant water bottle behind me on an airplane which helps a ton. And so I go relatively painfree but full body MRI shows like I'm super effed up. like my entire spine. So, it can be scary for a lot of people. >> I think a lot of it though too comes down to good clinicians having good conversations cuz same thing with the cancer screening. Like we can screen for 200 types of cancer at stage zero. We can tell you seven years in advance before >> you use those all you use the grail test. >> Yes. And then and then it's important to have the nuanced conversation and have the time. So traditional medicine will go well you don't need that. Like we we will you know but it's like it's a Yeah. And we've seen so uh I helped implement this with soldiers with special operators because they are exposed to so much stuff. They have threefold the risk. >> Yes. Burn pit. You name it. >> What's that from? Being exposed to random particullet. >> Also shooting guns. All that gun powder is getting absorbed. People don't think about it. You're absorbing all that through your skin. >> Yes. And we've saved guys lives because we were early enough in detection. to go back to microplastics, but like this is a crazy one. I didn't realize this until we had this meeting with Ken Paxton here and there's a a woman advocate who's banging on the desk about >> little girls now start putting lip gloss on between ages six and eight. The average American girls putting lip gloss on between six and eight. It's flavored lip gloss. >> Moms and dads are buying it. Yeah. But it's it is loaded with microlastics. And so they're absorbing plastics. And the reason your lips are pink is you have more blood vessels in your lips. And so it's a higher absorption rate. And so little girls are absorbing crazy levels of microplastics through lip gloss. And >> here first, avoid lip gloss and don't eat after loading your meg. >> Yeah. >> So surely someone's going to come along and make a kidfriendly microplastic free. Hey arguing today million at minimal they need to change the labeling of what they call all natural and like mandate that you disclose uh a risk profile. And so the Texas is looking at potentially forcing companies, but what we've learned with food is if you can get two or three big states to do it. It's so painful on the big corporations that they'll just change the label everywhere >> because they don't have to split all of the Do you think in future we might see kind of the same as in the UK? I don't know whether it's the same over here. Smoking packets have got almost 90% of it is taken up with some horrible artery warning label >> reflex. Can you see the same thing happening maybe around other around maybe microplastics or other contributing elements? >> You mean like a photo of just like teeny tiny testicles on a lip gloss bottle >> sperm? Yeah. >> But that's one of the reasons why they think that that fertility infertility is increasing. >> Adds shin. >> Yeah. What was it? 97% or 99% of men have microplastics in our testicles. Oh, did you see where most of that came from though? That it was in the [ __ ] gloves. >> Oh, if I get to teach all three of you. >> Wait, you you mean the gloves being used in the study? >> Yes. So, the big microplastics. The big micro Jared, pull it up. >> It's hilarious. The big [ __ ] microplastic study. Just search microplastics gloves. They were wearing [ __ ] nitrial gloves that And how how is it that these gloves bend? Why do they bend? because tiny little bits of plastic are breaking off. So, literally what happened was we're sorry, the plastic gloves we were wearing got on the plastic detector of the microlastic study we were doing and contaminated the results. So, the um >> that's wild. There it is. Gloves may be skewing. This is March 29th, University of Michigan. Scientists may be unknowingly inflating microplastics pollution estimates and the surprising source could be their own lab gloves. University of Michigan study found common nitral and latex gloves release tiny particles so called sterates which closely resemble microplastics and can contaminate samples during testing. In some cases it's led to wildly exaggerated results forcing researchers to track down the unexpected culprit. Don't [ __ ] test me, dude. >> There's a lot there's a lot of confusion and misperceptions in the microplastic industry like like the sweat thing is one. The chewing gum is full of microplastics issue. the the size of the microplastics and chewing gum actually is too large to be absorbed in the gut in most cases in significant amounts. So chewing gum is less of an issue. And then the um there's another one >> what do you think of clothing cuz everyone there was a whole thing against Lululemon and stuff now too. Well, there there was another big study a few weeks ago that that actually compared like how much microplastic exposure do you actually decrease with certain lifestylebased modifications like your clothing, the type of packaging that you store your food in, your personal care products, which involves shampoo and conditioner, whatever, which is stored in plastic bottles. The number one contributor bar none was oral exposure via plastics in your food. So what you store your food in uh or the food that you buy in plastic is the number one contributor. So if you're going to do anything like >> which by the way is impossible to get rid of your your garbage bag. Like there's a lot of stuff. >> Yeah. But think about it when you go to the grocery almost everything is in everything is >> in. And that's the problem. We we live in a society that right now is pretty much engineered for you to get your food in plastic even if it's healthy. >> Even a little level awareness because you talked about my fit foods. I used to use them 10 years ago and I would I was so dumb. I would heat up the in the plastic. So listen like 10 years ago I didn't know I'd heat up my little pre-repped meal in the plastic in a microwave. >> Free micro. I'm so glad you brought that up. Now I put it on a plate. >> So I pulled out I asked them to pull me the data from was there BPA in the containers or the cover and there wasn't. They use some very expensive company to not have micro. >> So we're working at the moment. I love their stuff. Inside every can, there's a plastic liner. That's how you don't get stuff contaminated with the metal. However, you can use a bioderadable uh natural plant compound liner. So, we're looking at how much it's going to cost for us to line this. >> Please do that because I drink two of these a day. >> I know. I know. They're [ __ ] awesome. However, leave it >> until you find out 10 years from now it's some edettoame based phytoestrogen killing you. Exactly. Slowly taking over your brain, frustrating everyone with new tonic. a bunch just smart people who can't have kids. >> God damn it. Uh yeah, I um I think the this sort of current future that we've got moving toward with all of the different diagnostics, all of the different interventions like it's what do you think if you were to make some of your predictions for where you think the attention is going to be in future? I think air quality is going to be huge. That's just about coming online. I think light pollution internally, flicker, LED, stuff like that. Is there anything else if you could? >> Social media. >> Anabolics. It's >> going to get bigger and bigger. >> Anabolics. >> Okay. What do you mean social media? >> The use of social media. Like it's we have awareness, but I don't think we yet really understand how detrimental it is to children and development. Like being on technology and the level of technology that kids are exposed to >> is going to have some sort of major impact that we'll look back and go, "Wow, was that like the tobacco of our time?" >> The smoking of teenagers in 2026. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, >> no one thought the idea that anabolics, >> what do you mean anabolics? >> Like the anabolic agents that they use in HIV and wasting that were used like nanderlone? >> Yeah. >> Things beyond testosterone, they're used in HIV and wasting FDA approved. >> Yeah. >> Anabolic agents. I think it's going to be >> you you mean that anabolic agents will become an increasingly popular uh treatment strategy for sarcopenia or I know there's amazing study on dandrallone and bone meal density. You guys earlier were talking about free testosterone. One of the like little tricks >> that I think I learned from >> Lar there are carlaginous receptors for growth hormone and it might be able to be used for actual cartilage repair as well. >> And then there's things like men who have a issue with free versus total, right? So you've got their total testosterone at an optimal level but their free is suffering. A lot of times that's um sexbinding goblin hormone. Yeah. And so then if you add in a micro dose of anabar, it will literally like a Pac-Man gobble up the sex binding goblin. Interesting. >> Micro doing an say spikes. They're free. >> Yeah. Although I I like >> But there's a benefit. I I I think the elephant in the room with SHBG though is that sex hormone binding globbulin is also something that increases in a state in which you in in which the body senses something like famine, starvation, stress or any type of scenario in which it would be unwise to bring more humans into the world. Right? Birth control goes up. People who are on like a strict ketogenic diet have high SHG. People who are under a lot of cortisol load, high stress, they have high SHPG. So in many cases like it can be something as simple as just like do like eat more carbs with dinner, sleep a little more, lower stress >> seems to it goes up. >> What do you think about nanderlone in older male populations as like obviously you still keep them on a test sip or anate but then micro doander or low doander? >> I think that that's going to be the way of the future and we have to address it and if we if we and this so we have a mutual friend Dr. for Larry Lip Schultz, the godfather of male fertility. >> Yeah, he's the I've known him for I don't know 30 or 30 years who developed the entire >> like wings and an arrow. >> He's been he's been using peptides for literally like 20 years. Used to write for GQ magazine. Uh he's got but he's a heav heavily accredited academic um at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, Texas. He's literally wrote the book on urology and he's just such a subject matter expert. He's the one who originally taught me and like helped me. I mean, I was I was literally 25% body fat, doing CrossFit every day, trying to eat right, couldn't figure things out, felt like I was just run ragged. And he optimized me to where all of a sudden I went from 25% to 7% without testosterone. >> He he literally used hcg and clomophene and was one of the firstandro. >> Yeah. No, >> he's in his but that's the future. We have to address it. Whatever happened to GHP 2 and GHP 6 and mod GRF cuz I was [ __ ] about with that 15 years ago and that I I'm surprised when we're talking about oh we're going to have human growth hormone rather than going exogenous trying to create some endogenous feedback loop >> right you mean like like growth hormone secret goss >> I think better options came out and there was such a hunger surge too there was a lot of >> [ __ ] gh Did you ever use it try >> it I know and I would sweat you try No um GH6 uh this is an early >> growth horming growth hormone releasing hexaeptide and bipeptide >> you know who prescribed me it was Larry Lip Schultz and this was again like 15 years ago >> I think the other peptides you were talking about like tessarellin and nipparelin CJC 129 they've replaced a lot of those are what people are using now >> are they mimicking the same sort of effect >> yeah same pathway but without all of the like yeah the the with a lower side effect profile in the same >> we used to we used to shoot it when I was in university. The only way that you could use it was if you >> hit yourself with it as you were cooking because by the time that you would finish the meal you were like >> beyond ravenous cuz it's just dumping ghrelin into like just over and over. >> It was overwhelming. It was great if you're trying to put on weight. >> So what happened? >> Is it still used? >> No, it it's transitioned out. Nobody really uses it. everything would be stacked secret. >> Yeah. Down tear. Uh I think I think uh by the way you you mentioned uh light pollution and you said air pollution, right? >> Yes. Yeah. I think air quality and light quality are going to be >> I think I think water and electricity are three and four. >> I think water's already >> Okay. So water's already been done. Electricity would mean um non-native EMF such as Wi-Fi routers, uh 5G, square waveform signals at a higher intensity and things that may cause either actual thermal heating if very close to the body such as like cell phone radio frequency or lowle upregulation of channels in cells related to how crazy do you go inadino level? Are you that aggressive with >> My house is pretty aggressive. Like everything is hardwired with metal shielded cables, Ethernet. There is no Wi-Fi. Every floor is grounded. Um I mean at at my house we pulled out all the stops in terms of circadian friendly lighting to address light pollution. >> You don't understand. Ben air filter, air scrubber. >> Ben showed me the guy that came in to help. Who' the bio buy bio home dude? What was his name? >> Uh Brian Hoyer. >> Right. So this guy comes in looking like a dude out of [ __ ] Ghostbusters. He's like meters like 20 like more meters than you've ever seen in your life. >> Unbelievable. He was like Dr. Octopus. >> Magnetic and all of this [ __ ] attached to his arms and he's going around like, you know, spraying for poltergeists and stuff. He's like, I can see in the corner there's some 5G in the corner. We got to get rid of the 5G in the corner. >> There was a murder here 20 years ago. >> Yeah. So, you feel a difference? >> So, Oh, you you absolutely feel a difference. And and a lot of this stuff, of course, has the has the big fat woo bat signal on it because it is an inconvenient truth that there may be an effect on everything from the the neurochemical balance in cells based on low-level exposure to radiation uh or radio frequencies or EMF to the effect that it might have on something like negative ion load in the body, which is why I'm a huge fan of the grounded floors, earthing, grounding, going outside barefoot. But I I don't think that there is a biological free cost to having a radio frequency device in your pocket as some bone scan data suggests might be an issue and sperm data uh or just sitting next to a white >> somebody broke down. Isn't there a uh in the phone itself, in the iPhone itself, somebody had covered this that it literally tells you you're supposed to keep it a certain distance. Yeah. From your a great [ __ ] disclaimer. Can you I I think the best metric though like is is if you eliminate that stuff. And of course the single most important place to do it is your bedroom where your nervous system has a chance to arguably repair and recover for like 8 hours for a 24-hour cycle. But as many places in the home as you can downregulate exposure to that stuff I think is a good idea. It fits right into the category with light water and air. >> Are you worried about eight sleep then? >> I do not use an eight sleep for those reasons. Um >> I [ __ ] love >> I'm not going to piss them off because I know they're are they a sponsor? Yeah. Okay. I mean, you can say whatever you want. >> I I use a different one that that still cools my bed, but that tests lower with an EMF meter, >> right? But EMF meter when you at least from what I know, >> although I prefer my Ghostbuster, too. >> Talking to a bunch of talking to a bunch of friends, they Faraday cage the cooling tower of their eight sleep. >> You could do that. >> Um, and that's where most of the if you do the actual test >> to there's there's much less on the pad than on the controlling device itself. So, yeah. So they just Farad totally. >> Can you give Can you give a layman's explanation because a lot of people ionizing, nonionizing, radiation, Bluetooth. I see that you're always with wide headphones, stuff like that. >> What's the 30,000 foot view of the most defensible science behind EMFs, exposure to electrical frequencies and stuff like that. >> Class 3 Bluetooth signals, which defines most of what we're using on our heads and our ears, etc. very little data showing that there's any delotterious effect at all. So you're talking that that is that is more like a I'm not sure so I'm going to play it safe type of strategy for me to be using wired headphones. >> It's your Pascal's wager. Your wage. >> Exactly. It's a Pascal. It's a it's a it's a technological Pascal wager. um for Wi-Fi, for 5G, for 4G, the the biggest response to it from a from from an electrochemical balance in the cell standpoint is proximity to the source, right? So, the farther you can be from a Wi-Fi router, for example, in your home or your office, the better. like your neighbors Wi-Fi signals if you've got your home totally tricked out and all your Faraday paint and cages or whatever is not that big of an issue because they're so far away. But if you're sleeping with your head whatever one to two feet on the other side of the wall from the Wi-Fi router, that's where there's a bigger issue. Um the there there are other things people worry about. Electric cars, um Teslas are actually designed to be pretty low EMF. There is a signal that exceeds the safety limit if you are in the back seat right next to the battery. So if you like have a kid in the backseat of a Tesla, >> most of the rest of it is safe. And that I have a video online where we went through and tested everything in the Tesla. But if you were going to shield anything, it'd be the actual back seat. And then um the other major sources in a home would be like appliances, you know, uh dryer, washer, microwave only while it's running, like if you were right next to it when it's running. So basically keeping those appliances as far away as possible from the bedroom or anywhere where you're at for an extended period of time. Basically, don't put your laptop on the washer, which I know you do, and work from that during the day. Okay. um major appliances and then um the phone would just basically also be a proximity to the body and b the bar signal. The lower the bar signal, the higher radio frequency output in order to be searching for a signal. So when the plane is about to land and 100 people on the plane all turn their cell phones on when you're maybe still like I don't know like let's say at 2,000 ft and you still got one bar. That's a pretty hazardous place to be because you all of a sudden have like a 100 devices pushing out a ton of radio frequency cuz they're all searching for a signal at the same time. So that's that's where you pull on your tinfoil hat is right when the plane's about to land. >> That's crazy. >> Or your EMF blocking. >> My girlfriend literally got me the tinfoil hat. >> I I have an actual EMF blocking. >> I wear one for international flights. I wear a full She's like travel with my sons. I have EMF blocking inside my sons for long haul flights. >> Just just for the radiation for long hall flight. >> It's interesting. I actually got this. This is for you to wear today. >> Hey, I love it. Make autism great again. >> Hey, this is what I'm going to put on every time I land. >> Does it block you? >> I hope so. >> Dude, I'm [ __ ] blown away by the uh Tesla thing by sitting in the back the back seat. I'm going to guess. Lots of the batteries, >> but for every uh problem, there's going to be a solution. So, someone is now going to make a child seat presumably, which has So, so I I have called uh four body shops and so far found none. And the Tesla dealership for warranty reasons won't do it, who will actually install the shielding material in the back seat. So, I have just like a giant piece of fabric from Brian at Shielded Healing that's just like sitting in the back of the Tesla right now. But I haven't actually been able to find anyone who's gonna pull the seat out and install it properly like between the back seat and the battery. >> Did you? >> So there's a great business model out there for someone out there somewhere. Biologically safe EMF shielding for the back seat of a Tesla. >> Does it make a meaningful difference? >> Oh yeah. When when you put the shielding material, the meter drops down. It's just you it's it's ugly to just have a giant piece of of shielding material just like propped in the back seat. I need to get it installed or like underneath the upholstery or >> what I found fascinating, it was so funny. I was watching your documentary. Congratulations on the new documentary, by the way. >> Oh, thanks. >> Um, I was watching this last night and I was looking at you. >> By the way, he was disappointed that they didn't actually show the penis injection scene. >> I was only there for the penis reliably. I only arrive at events. Me and Zack Efron at the back of the cinema just like, I'm waiting for the penis. Like, show me the [ __ ] penis. Um, one of the things that I noticed was the most Ben Greenfield thing in the world is to design the perfect house to ensure there's no EMFs, everything's local areaworked and copper wiring and all the rest of it. Living room, [ __ ] tons of boxes of new [ __ ] that he just had sent to his house. Tons and tons of cardboard boxes. And I was like, that's a man who gets lots of packages. I have a I have a soft spot in my heart for a man that receives a lot of packages. >> It It's the worst when you try. I literally have an assistant who sits at home and opens packages and sends me photos to an ASA project when I'm traveling so that everything can be unboxed and put away when I get home because one of my greatest sources of stress when I travel is getting home to all of the >> the worst >> the boxes >> worst. >> So, I've outsourced that. >> I enjoyed I enjoyed seeing the boxes. But yeah, >> a lot of boxes >> lots of lots lots of cool free things. Um, on the air quality thing, I think that is CO2 is something that I think people are going to pay a lot of attention to, but that'll be further down the line. Before that, it's going to be humidity and mold like [ __ ] huge if we had small travel mold detectors >> that you could put on your backpack. >> Air quality detectors would be amazing. >> Or like a canary that you could train >> for mold. >> Yeah. For mold. This drops. Yeah. here. >> Uh, one of the problems that you have, and I I only found this out from speaking to Mike from Jasper, is that you can't have an air purifier or he calls it a scrubber, a scrubber with different I know your dad was huge into this stuff, right? >> Uh, my dad was water. Um, you can't have the sensor be in the scrubber because the turnover of air is too high. So, you always have to have two separate because it's basically pulling air through the sensor itself. sensing one thing. >> You need the detector and the scrubber and then like like if you could have the perfect setup at home and you weren't renting it, you could just put in your own hepoiltration system. You would have a filter, you would have a scrubber, right? So the filter you see like the MV rating which is just like the particulate rating like that's the actual like filter that's catching stuff that you pull out and change you know every 6 months or whatever in your home. Then you have the scrubber which keeps the actual mold from building up in the ducks themselves and a lot of times that use that's using like UV or ozone or something like that. And then a recirculator that's pulling in fresh air from the outdoors so you're not just filtering stale >> so you're getting ideal scenario. Yeah. You're scrubbing, you're recirculating, and you're filtering. All three like that's the best setup. >> So is that So it's three different units. >> It's basically three different technologies being used for something like central hepailter. >> What should happen? And I think this is where the guys from Jasper Mike's going to end up doing it is all of this can be fixed if you just put it into AC. >> Like if you just go after the AC unit, you don't need to do any of the additional standalone unit thing. The reason that Jasper exists at the moment is that there isn't enough cleaning going on through the AC. And if you're in an apartment block or if you've got a house trying to retrofit that, you're going to have to bodgege it together like some Ben Greenfield or Tesla car. Like, it's not it's it's too much to do. So, you're having to scrub inside of a room because the air that's coming in from the AC, even with a dehumidifier at the best that you can get at the moment, is tough. I mean, what did you do for your AC? Did you have to budge it together or did you find something that was readyade? Uh we went with a local company called Laser and they they do scrubber, they do uh filter and they do recirculation at the particulate level that's needed to get rid of mold though. >> Yeah. Like they're they're using a MV filter that will basically catch anything that's like PM2.5 which is I think it's PM 2.5 to PM10 are the main sizes that you get concerned about. But I still because of wildfire season and also in the kitchen where the rating for the height of the the hood over the stove for the actual filtration system above the stove when you're cooking is too high to actually catch everything that gets released when you're cooking. So even if you have a filter in the kitchen, you're getting a massive amount of PM2.5 every time you cook. So, I have a standalone HEPA air filter in the kitchen and then a bunch in other rooms that I pull out when it's like wildfire season or there's a bunch of smoke. There are uh eight Jasper filters back in our Airbnb right now here in Austin running every room. >> So, we have our house. >> To me, it's worth it >> to filter than to as much as I travel get exposed in an Airbnb or hotel room and be dealing with mold for the next two years. >> Like, it's way better as a snippet. But see, what you said is important is when you're exposed, you're exposed over a period of time. It takes a long time to get rid of it. Yeah. So, you might as well >> You work a lot. You work a lot with mold. Obviously, it's been a huge part of my life over the last couple of years. >> How how brief of an exposure do you need in order to cause an effect? Do like is one night six months of detox? Is there any equation that's been for this? I think well part of it so yes I do and treat mold and environmental toxins in our medical practice and I will tell you I think it comes down in part to genetics some people are affected some people are not obviously there's no it's not like okay so you have low testosterone for 6 months here's going to be your subsequent effects but uh an exposure of even a week can >> a week's better though you at least just delayed Chris's fears about his one night stand with the moldy And so you have you gotten sick with mold? You must have if you >> uh I I've I've gotten pretty lucky. I haven't. Yeah. You haven't? >> Have you done your genomic testing to work out whether you've got the different polymorphisms that your detox pathways for lime and for mold and stuff? >> I have a little bit of impaired glutathione detoxification pathways and use some glutathione. I've never had significant mold exposure, but knock on wood. >> I mean, I lived in Me and another guy lived in the same house, me and Zach, best friend. And one of us, him, fine. Me, same [ __ ] house, dude. Like, and he was ripping vapes, going to bed at 3 in the morning, playing gigs. Here's me like getting up, sunlight in the eyes, [ __ ] grounding, listening to Ben and Cuban and you and uh it wrecked me. So it really is if you just have rolled the genetic dice and then you kind of hit the equivalent of the jack the inverse jackpot living in an environment like it's it's a real >> roommate with the freaking like Viking Nephilim jeans. >> It's just it's just it's completely untouched by it. But yeah, I think the mold thing is going to be it already is sort of picking up speed. But um Ariana from the mold co she rules shoemaker protocol all of that stuff I think is going to be massive like teaching people about binders and sauna and exposure and TGF beta. >> Yeah mold co has kind of like systematized everything to where they have like the testing the solutions everything on onetop shop which is really cool um >> really cool slash possibly the fox guarding the hen house but I still think it's a good idea. >> How so? >> Well if they're testing and then supplying the solutions based on the test results. Oh, you're incentivized to get the test >> potential. But I but I've gone through the website and seen what they're doing and I think that they're doing a good service. >> I mean, you need to be a real scumbag to be falsifying people's tests so you can then >> I would I would hope not. I would therapeutics. No, I So, yeah. What's cool is uh all of the problems that we think are sort of in the future, there's already solutions or proto solutions that already exist. So for people that have got systemic issues, hormones, health, optimizing like you guys and similar to you guys exist for the light problems, we've got people thinking about LEDs for mold. We've got the mold cove for blood testing and mass, we've got function for, you know, air quality, we've got jet, you know, there's already aquat for reverse osmosis. Like >> there's already the beginnings of solutions. It's just a case of kind of telling people about it. That makes me feel more confident because I guess like 15 years ago all of these problems still existed, but there wasn't even the nent version of some company that could maybe fix it. >> Best resource I ever found and I I really wanted to interview the author on my podcast and hopefully she doesn't hear this horrible interview cuz she was uh a little boring and didn't do a great job explaining. But the book was fantastic. It was called Prescription for a Healthy Home and it's like everything. It's carpets, appliance, it's roofing, it's painting, like every like I gave it to the people building my home. Like I bought it for the architect and the building team because I wanted them to read it. It was so thorough as far as everything that it went into for building materials from the ground up or outfitting like an existing condo or apartment uh or or somewhere that you're not building from scratch. Um, excellent guide and it's like I think it was published two years ago maybe. So pretty relevant. >> Unreal. Final thing that I love which I think will pick up speed will be uh proper genetic testing. So Intellex DNA is who you guys use uh that Lisa has put me through. Little bit expensive. You need a healthcare practitioner provider whatever to get in between you. I know that function are about to release their own version at some point later this year which will democratize that. I'm sure you guys have all got your own versions of this too. But it's the only test you only ever need to do once. >> That's true. Yeah. until crisper gene editing really takes off. >> Well, you got the follow standing thing when we were in Rowitan together. >> Yeah. >> How did that work? Did you >> I gained muscle at a more rapid rate than I would have expected without changing uh protein, calorie intake or my weight training protocol uh around 10 lbs in 3 months. >> Uh it's not permanent. You would need to repeat it I think every one to one and a half years. And uh unfortunately uh at the time I was under the impression it was reversible in case [ __ ] hit the fan and something went wrong. It's not actually reversible. >> I thought it was reversible. I thought you just took a uh no that's the issue is that uh it is not. Um and the company is now readily admitting that it's not uh and doctors were supposed to reach out to their patients and tell them that oops it's not. Um, so that's the only issue now is it's just like, well, if you're going to get your jeans edited, it'd be nice to know that if something goes wrong, you could reverse it. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, we did go to a small island off the coast of Honduras, >> which is specifically a network state that doesn't have any oversight of basically any nation >> so that you could get this experimental gene therapy. And now you're like, >> "Well, they didn't." >> My understanding, but my understanding that I was taught from that technology is it's not uh editing a gene. It's turning on a pre-existing. >> You are correct. It's not a crisper gene edit scissors tool. It's it's it's up basically like upregulating or downregulating a gene. So, uh yeah, like joking aside, the the only reason that you'd have to do a genetic test twice in a lifetime is if you were actually using crisper gene editing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, be pretty sick. Guys, you all rule. I appreciate you. Where should people go to check out everything we've told them so many interesting >> My company's ways toowwell.com. The number two. >> Yeah. Go to my website drgabriel lion.com. All of the channels, the podcast. Um, these two are getting PhDs to come on. >> Let's do it. Let's go. >> And uh, yeah, Strong Medical with Lifespan MD if you want to be my patient. >> I don't do rectal exams. So, >> sweet. Okay. Uh, there's not a lot of Ben Greenfells out there, such Google is good. >> Okay, I appreciate you all. You all rule. Thank you for keeping everyone alive. Goodbye, my beauties. >> Yes, that [ __ ] >> That was fun. >> So much fun. >> Congratulations. You made it to the end of a podcast episode without dying. Now, here's another one. Go on, watch it.