Healing After Divorce, Heartbreak & Unexpected Loss In Life | The Glory Hour

Anything that kind of rearranges, radically rearranges our life is grief is grief worthy. And so for me that radical rearrangement came when my husband of almost 20 years walked away from our family and he'd been building a life outside of the relationship. I didn't know about that and [music] suddenly it was over and it blindsided me. It completely rearranged my life and it also really impacted my identity in in all [music] kinds of ways. OB the obvious way is it I felt like I could had been kicked out of my favorite club the wife club. [music] That chapter of my life ended very abruptly very painfully [music] and I wrestled with my identity. I wrestled with my relationship with God. [music] Anxiety flared up. I'd never really struggled with anxiety before but I was having panic attacks and I found myself trying to figure out where I fit. And within that, I really felt this need to dig into my identity in Jesus because I had attached myself. I had kind of hitched my wagon to my identity [music] as a wife and to this person. And that wasn't a safe place to hitch my wagon cuz [music] cuz humans let us down. They just do. And so through that experience of um losing that marriage and and moving through the next couple of years [music] of reclaiming the truth of who I was, finding out who I was in Jesus, uh that's where the healing was able to happen during that season. Hey, Glory Hour family. I'm so glad that you are joining me today because I have a question for you because we're going to dive into some things that maybe you've been dealing with. I'm pretty sure that you have. You know, have you experienced something in life that is unexpected? Maybe due to divorce, a diagnosis, a loss of a job, or a family issue. Well, today on the Gloria, we're going to take an in-depth look into the complicated nature of grief from a clinical and spiritual perspective. Our guest today, Nicole Langman, is a Canadian counselor, social worker, and author who is passionate about helping others navigate difficult seasons of life by providing hope. Nicole, it is such an honor and a joy to have you on the Glory Hour. >> Sydney, I'm delighted. Thank you so much for having me. >> You know, it is such an honor to have you and I, you know, we were talking a little bit beforehand that um you know, when your publicist reached out to me, I immediately knew I was like, we have to have this conversation talking about grief, talking about these unexpected moments. And so, can you just paint a little picture of what grief is and how it looks different in different seasons of life? It's a really great question and grief is this huge umbrella that we have long held as we we've kind of connected it to death, haven't we? We've said someone dies and we we grieve. We understand that that feels um a deep loss. And as a therapist, we know that grief is actually this um umbrella of emotions over a bunch of emotions. We'll have there's anger that shows up in grief. There's um we have a we have experiences of disconnect and confusion and memory loss. We feel deep sorrow and sadness. For so many people, the grief feels physical. Physical grief is very very common where our body aches. Um we we can actually lose things like the ability to hear as well or see as clearly. Our brain is foggy. Uh so grief is a physical is a biological, emotional, spiritual experience, mental all the way around. So we understand grief as sorrow. And so we've long held death as a high watermark of loss. that that is the kind of gold standard of of where we can put our grief. But what we're learning now is that we grieve countless disappointments, losses that have nothing to do with death. And so what we're trying to do here, and certainly in my book, and I know several other authors are writing similarly, is around just noticing that grief shows up differently for different people and that we can experience many things that are grieforthy that are not related to death. >> You know, I'm just like so grateful for like the work that you're doing of exploring this and helping us to process what grief is is because you know many who've you've journeyed along with me on the Gloria I've opened up about you know I've in I'm in therapy and then one thing I didn't realize is I thought death was like you said like the high water mark of grief that's what I thought if you lose the loved one but when you go through these major traumatic life events there's grief associated with it as well and in your book the story I never wanted I'm not kidding y'all like I started reading her book and the first like couple pages I was in tears because it just landed on so many different parts of my life that I've experienced. Well, so can you just even share Nicole a little bit of like personally what you journey through when it comes to grief? >> Well, and and absolutely and and anything that kind of rearranges, radically rearranges our life is grief is grief worthy. And so for me, that radical rearrangement came when my husband of almost 20 years walked away from our family and he'd been building a life outside of the relationship. I didn't know about that. and suddenly it was over and it blindsided me. It completely rearranged my life and it also really impacted my identity in in all kinds of ways. OB the obvious way is it I felt like I had been kicked out of my favorite club, the wife club. And and in that kind of losing membership in the wife club, it it just changed everything. How I saw the world, how I saw myself. I also judged myself as a therapist. I should have known. I should have seen the signs. I should have, you know, uh it's hard to read the label when we're inside the bottle. And so when we're so up close to it, we don't necessarily see it. And so I've been able to forgive myself or let myself off the hook. Not that there was necessarily forgiveness needed for that, but I just let myself understand that when you are so close to it, you're not necessarily able to see what seems to be so obvious in retrospect. And so that chapter of my life ended very abruptly, very painfully. And I wrestled with my identity. I wrestled with my relationship with God. Anxiety flared up. I'd never really struggled with anxiety before, but I was having panic attacks. And I found myself trying to figure out where I fit. And within that, I really felt this need to dig into my identity in Jesus because I had attached myself. I had kind of hitched my wagon to my identity as a wife and to this person. And that wasn't a safe place to hitch my wagon because cuz humans let us down. They just do. And so through that experience of um losing that marriage and and moving through the next couple of years of reclaiming the truth of who I was, finding out who I was in Jesus. Uh that's where the healing was able to happen during that season. So, it's been several years since that experience and God's offer offered me a lot of opportunities to speak about identity and loss and grief associated especially to um non non-death losses. >> Yeah. And I think like you know Nicole because we talked about this when it comes to marital loss like it is such a very traumatic thing of and I really love how you brought up identity because it's like you know for for you you said for almost two decades you're known as a wife that was like your whole your world was revolving around that and then you have your personal life you've your family you know children and so that is something when abruptly it ends and it's not something you expected um it's very traumatic and just can send your mind into a spiral and I just appreciate like your transparency of just even explaining of, you know, it like happens, but then there's different things that surface, but how important it is to know like who you are in Jesus. And so, can you just share a little bit about like what God began to reveal to you about who he is in the midst of this, you know, your life being like turned upside down? >> Yeah, it's such a it's a beautiful question. It gives me it gives me goosebumps when I think about that season. Have you been in a season like that probably Sydney where you're like so you feel so much intimacy with the Lord where you're you're just completely blown away everywhere you look he's reminding you of these very important pieces of truth right and uh and that was what that season was for me. So I look back at that season it was so painful but it was so I felt so intimately connected to to Jesus. I often say the valley is God's best workbench. It's the richest soil. It's where the most beautiful things sprout up. And uh during that season I was having dreams and uh I would wake up in the morning and in particular I had told God I said I don't think I can ever trust a man again. And the very very clear message in my heart was you don't need to worry about that right now. You just need to trust me. And it was in that little conversation with God that I felt myself that I just said I can do that. I can do that. I don't know what this looks like but I can do that. And so much of the beginning of this is that grief needs to be it needs to be witnessed. It needs to be um exposed. It needs to be experienced. And if we don't if we don't expose it, if we don't let ourselves feel the emotions that are attached with that, the anger, the fear, the sorrow, the un whatever it might be, if we don't allow ourselves to feel that, it will chase us down [laughter] and it will find us and it will it will cause itself to flare up in other ways. Right? So I decided I was going to be very transparent, very vulnerable, very honest with the Lord. And so that looked like to me a lot of face on the floor, literally face on the floor moments at his feet where I was like weeping, snotty nose weeping into the word. God, what whatever you want to do with my life, I turn this over to help me to heal heal me. If you heal me, I'll do whatever it is you want me to do with the story. And so I kind of just turned it over. I dedicated it to him. this pain is yours. I give it to you. And that declaration, that shift, it caused me to have a bit of a different lens. And through that, I started having these dreams. And I I write about this in my first book, a little bit in my sec in this next book coming out around he started to give me Rwords. And uh the first Rword came one morning. I was having panic attacks. And I just kept reciting the word rejected. rejected, rejected, rejected, rejected as I couldn't get the word out of my head. And and this is a strange one, but in the moment, he said, "You sure love our words, don't you? Why don't you go write down all the Rwords you can think of?" And so I went to my little devotional chair and I opened my Bible and I popped in my AirPods and put in my worship music. Carrie Joby and Pope Darst, you know, and um I just started writing down our words. And the first one that I started with was rejected and then reject. And then it kind of moved into this other and I landed on the word relish. And I laughed. I was like, "That's funny." Like a condiment. And I heard him say in my heart, go look it up. And relish means to adore, to add zest, to delight in. And that again was another pivot for me where I just thought, Lord, if the king of heaven delights in me, if the king of heaven says that I add zest, if the king of heaven declares me his and can reach into my little apartment and my new little life and say, "You're mine. I'm yours. Then it doesn't matter what any man has to say of me. It doesn't matter what anybody else thinks because the king of heaven says that I'm delighted in. And that experience of just the just the delight of knowing how much I'm loved. It shifted things. And so more Rwords came. The first one was relish and then rescue. I started to notice that it was a rescue. God's like, I only rescue what I value. It's true of rescues. And then it was redeemed. And the the images there's these images that came with these pictures. This redeemed of like you've been redeemed, you've been made new. It's not just a little bit of a tidy up. It's a complete overhaul and then released. Right. And now and the word remember. Remember who he is. Remember who I am. Remember what I've done. Trust me in this. So through those Rwords, which is what I speak a lot about, I write a lot about it. He transformed me into this uh woman who's remembering who he is even when things are are hard. And I just continue to go back to those Rwords even when things are hard now in my life. Nicole, I love that so much. Those Rwords of going like I think of you went from like the beginning of rejected and to relish and then redeemed and remembered. That is so so beautiful. And I think, you know, even as like you're talking and I think about grief and a lot of us could like been there, you know, when you're sharing I'm face planted on the floor and I'm crying out to Jesus. It's amazing that it's like even in your experience that it was like he made of his promises true that I am close to the brokenhearted and I'm near to those that are crushed in spirit and I bind up their wounds. And so even in that deep dark place, in the midst of it, as your heart is shredding and tearing and your soul is just like, I can't take this anymore, Jesus steps in and gives you a whole new framework of like how to like look at this moving forward. It's like only our God can do that. And I think that's something about grief that can be unexpected is like when he steps in in those moments and leads you on this path and journey to really show you who he is and that he's like you're mine. I I've rescued you. I've redeemed you. Like you're safe. >> Isn't that the most powerful thing of all of it? And and I'm so grateful. I love that you brought up the psalm like I'm so grateful for David's psalms that and for all of the psalms that there is this outpouring this honest expression of sorrow and fear and undoneess and and he's crying out to God and and then you know you keep track of my tossings you know you count my b my tears in your in the bottle and I I just think thank you Lord for your attention to detail. Thank you that you are a pursuing father. Thank you that you never let us go, whatever it might be, because there are so many things to that we grieve. And for me, the experience of a betrayal and abandonment and and then a an unwanted divorce, that was devastating for me. But we are all carrying sorrow in grief that is quite private. And I I remember thinking, where are the casserles? This is the thing that stands out to me as I think about this this type of unspoken loss or the quiet loss that and I sometimes go back to, you know, the Psalms and I'm like, David, he wasn't getting casserles, right? There wasn't a lot of people that were lining up saying, "Ah, buddy, I'm so sorry this is going so this is so poorly." I mean, it was rough for him and and he had God. That's who he resp that's who he relied on. And may we have the same faith and the same determined um honesty and vulnerability with God that we can say nobody else may understand this. Nobody else may see this, but I have you. I can trust you and I'm going to lean on you in this season. And he he was an amazing example. Uh I think we can really really thank him for that. I look forward to coffee with him one day >> and maybe and maybe some casserole too because I'm so glad I was actually that part of like a chapter book. It's called the casserole. you called the casserole code and it just resonated with me so deeply um that it's like the sense everyone is living their lives but yours is still broken and um and one thing you just really talk about how you just want someone to bring you a casserole just to see you in the midst of your pain. Um but I love this quote that you said when we take our eyes off our circumstance and the pain of how people have responded to our loss it frees us up to make our way to Jesus's feet. >> Yeah. uh we get really attached to how people respond to our loss, don't we? And and uh and we can build a lot of resentment and it can be very isolating. Grief can be very isolating if we're not careful. We can actually contribute to that. So so much of people don't understand, people aren't responding, people's quietness means that my grief doesn't matter or my loss doesn't matter. And we can interpret and mind readad what people are thinking when they very quite honestly have no idea what to do. Most people don't know what to do. We know culturally what to do when someone dies and the church does a pretty good job. I I can't say 100% they do a great job, but they definitely seem to be doing a better job than when someone loses a spouse or someone has a child with a disability, a diagnosis, mental health, or there's estrangement in the family. Um there are several losses that people don't know what to do about. And it's not that we even want the casserole. We just want to be seen. We want there to be some level of validation that what's happened matters and so we can look to people to offer that validation and that can just leave us uh very lonely and very frustrated and and and additionally hurt. >> Yeah. This is when you like brought up the casserole code because I was I was I first I started laughing. I was like, "Oh, I love where she's going with this." Um because that is a very something that I've experienced is when I was going through these sudden unexpected changes in my life and you do feel like where is everybody like I mean you just feel like you're on this island. I know for me my my um trauma response is I isolate. >> I am gone. I'm like don't talk to me. I turn off my phone. Like I just get in this very dark place because you just feel lonely. Um and I and Nicole might be the same for you is like I just feel like sometimes in my circles that I guess in a place like my age of things that I've walked through and I've gone through like not many people have experienced this and just like you said that they don't know how to respond. Like you know what to do when somebody passes away in a family but what happens when your marriage when your marriage dies or when you get a bad diagnosis or your family's crumbling around you? I mean like how do there's there's no way that we know how to respond to that which can be really difficult and hard. But I also hear it's like what you're saying, Nicole, is, you know, that's an opportunity that we run and meet with Jesus, but we also give people grace, too. >> The grace with people is so key. It really is key. And to ask for what we need because people aren't mind readers. And so we we we tend to isolate like you said. I think that's really common to isolate. And but what honestly what we need to be doing is we need to be praying first, always praying first, and then asking for what we need from the people that we can trust. What the what I what I've seen personally and professionally is that people silverline things. People paint things with this silver lining and they at least things, right? Well, at least he didn't die or at least she's still whatever or at least your child isn't this or and that creates this comparison piece that doesn't really help us at all because shame shame loves to kind of piggyback on grief when we don't feel like we're being seen or understood. So, there must be something wrong with me. Um and so grief is a natural really actually sacred experience that God's given us. Grieving is something that he does. Grieving is something that Jesus did. Grieving is something that we get to do because we have loved because there has there is the capacity for deep hope and connection. And and essentially what I found is that my experience with grief was actually my call to action to the throne, to the feet of Jesus. Was like, "Oh my goodness, there's nothing left to do except throw myself at the feet of the one who knows exactly what to do." And so through that, I was able to take myself off the case for holding other people accountable to help me. Um, but also give myself grace to not do this tidy. Grief is messy. It's not linear. it bounces all over the place. Some days we're feel like a rock star again and then other days we feel like we cannot leave the apartment, right? And so so much of it is just having grace with ourselves and our process, having grace with other people to not know what to do or to get it wrong, to say the wrong thing. I had I had a friend say, "Well, at least he didn't die." And I thought, "No, he's he's not he didn't die. um he's out there with somebody else and he's, you know, spending time with somebody else's children and he's going to beach days and doing his things with somebody else, but at least he didn't die. I felt that kind of flare up in me, you know, and and I and I think that's really normal is to kind of have that almost like protecting of our grief is like this is a big deal. Could somebody just say this is a big deal and I don't know what to say except that I'm here shoulder-to-shoulder with you. I'd like to pray with you. I'm bringing casserles and and I'm just going to partner with you in this. Even if I say it wrong, I'm so sorry, but I'm going to partner with you in this. You are not by yourself in it. I think we just need to learn how to saddle up to people even if we're uncomfortable. Lean into the discomfort. >> I like what you're saying, Nicole, is like leaning into discomfort is so key. Um because I think also too in the like Christian circles it's especially when it comes to marriage it's like divorce is so taboo and it's like when you're going through and you're trying to be like pretty it up. There's there's not like there there's nothing really pretty about this. Like I don't know what to tell you. There's nothing pretty about divorce. There's nothing pretty about somebody walking out or living a like having a like their own you know new life. I mean it's it is it's a different form of like my my mom explained this um to me cuz she's like walked through divorce. divorces and generational through my family. Um it's like it's it's death like it's but the person is still alive like your life is dead that you had but that person is still living walking and breathing and you you know that you know um and it's really really difficult and hard and the other thing Nicole that you said that u my therapist [laughter] she would tell me when I would be sitting across in the chair across from her and I'll never forget she's like Sydney you can't project manage your grief and that was like a big >> aha anger terrible. I was like, "Ah, I didn't realize I was doing that so much." Is that I was trying to make it feel like um it has to be this way or that way. And it's it's not like you said, it's messy and it's complicated. Nicole, something that was so freeing um that you wrote in your book, The Story I Never Wanted, is that you were talking about, you know, there's a different stages of grief that we all heard of, but it's not just like, okay, you start here and you end there and it's done. That's not that's not the case. They're not the case at all. >> It's not the case. And we love Elizabeth Kubler Ross for her her stages of grief. She's done a beautiful job. And she doesn't necessarily say it's this, this, this, and this. She does say there's fluidity throughout the stages for sure. But I think people sometimes misunderstand some of that is that like, well, here now I'm in the bargaining stage and now I'm in the anger stage and well, you can bargain all the way through and you can be angry as anything all the way through. So the and then it doesn't leave a lot of space for bringing Jesus into the whole experience of grief. We must bring him in in order to heal on a soul level. And sometimes, and I'll just be really honest. I I know that you know this is that some healing doesn't come on this side. Some healing doesn't come on this side. We have to Lisa Turkers talks about living between two gardens, right? Eden and heaven. And sometimes in the season between it hurts and it doesn't get tight tightly or fancily put together again. And that's just part of it. My husband is still gone, right? My daughter still lives with a disability. There are aspects of my life that until we get to the other side, we won't understand. And so much of that comes back to the trusting the one who knows. He stands outside of it. He stands outside of it. and to know that he is an actively involved, invested parent, that he he he's got this whole thing sorted out already that we can just trust him with. I can't see it. I don't understand it. I it sometimes feels like you're quiet, but I know I'm not going to interpret that as abandonment because I know who you are and I know that you are working all things out for the good of those of us who love you. And so all I need to do is continue to show up at your feet and love you and I can trust him. And so it's it's a it's a it's it's part of our work is to do the grief in a healthy way. Not just following Elizabeth Kubler Ross's plan and noticing that in ourselves, but also integrating the Lord into every season of it. Um and so one of the things I talk about in in one of the books is is if everything that we think is true of ourselves or the things that have been said to us, because we know that rejection and and betrayal, trauma really kind of speak quite loud messages into our self-esteem, don't they? Yeah. And so if we were to hold that all up to Jesus, what would he say? And if Jesus was sit in the room with the person who's harmed us or with the people that we're struggling in relationship with, what would he have to say? Here's what we know to be true. He goes to bat for his kids. He loves his kids. He stands up for us. It just might not look the way that we want it to look. And our grief isn't going to be scripted and go the way that we want it to go. So, we just are continually like reclaiming the truth of who we are in Jesus. >> I just had a moment. I got lost because I was like because what you were saying I was like it was just really landing in my my spirit. Like I had a moment I was like I forgot we were even doing this like this like podcast because what you were saying was just so rich and so so good. And I think for me in my own journey like as you were talking I was just I was having this moment with God of journeying through like what even my grief in my personal life looks like because isn't that the truth that like it's there it exists but then it's like you have to go back I love it you have to reclaim what Jesus has said and what he's spoken and one of the things that the work I've had to do is like my you know my therapist she would say joy and grief can coexist that was so hard for me because it's like I think we are taught you know in church or just the way that we are. It's like you just got to be filled with the the joy of the Lord is my strength >> and in the presence of the Lord is the fullness of joy which is absolutely true but I'm crushed right now and I'm broken and it keeps surfacing and so I had this you know in my own life I would struggle with this tension of like I feel joy but I literally you know I feel joy sometimes and then I feel like I want to just end my life. You know what I mean? Like it was this really weird space that I had to navigate with Jesus. But I think, you know, Nicole, for me, um, the one thing I remember that was a game changer in my darkest season is I heard the Lord say, he's like, "I am your defender." And I just and I got to encounter him as defender. And I saw how he stepped in every place of my life that it was falling apart, that he would just show up in these supernatural ways. And something that I love that you say um in your book is that and I think in what you're speaking to is like you have to grow around grief, carry it with more grace and integrate it into our own stories. That's what it is. It's about knowing that I the grief is here. I don't shove it away. I don't push it away, but I grow with it because, you know, one of the fruit of the spirits I think we often forget about is the fruit of longsuffering. >> [laughter] >> And so in order to Jesus suffered long and so we're in him, we're going to suffer long. But like you're saying, it's this divine invitation to just to encounter him in a very different way that you experience him that if you didn't go through what you went through, you wouldn't know that facet of who he is. >> That's beautiful, Sydney. Like what you said there just is so true is that we can experience this incredible intimacy with him and also grieve. We can experience that so up close clinging to the hem of his garment intimacy with him and still weep and have deep sorrow. Both can be true at the same time. One of the stories I often tell as a a mother daughter shortly after about eight months after my husband walked away. My daughter and I went to Mexico at an all-inclusive. It was just a motherdaughter getaway. We both really were looking forward to this. And the first morning I went out down to the beach, did my devotions on the beach and and God made this beautiful sunrise. It was the most beautiful thing. Oranges and pinks and and just everything was cascading over the water and the and the waves were reflecting this beautiful sunrise. I was absolutely mesmerized by it. And for whatever reason, I looked down the beach to my right and there was this storm pelting the sands and the the lightning and the rain was really obvious that the resorts down the way were getting pelted. And I looked back and I'm still experiencing this warming beautiful sunrise. And in a moment, in an instant, exactly what you said, I realized joy and sorrow can coexist. Both can be true at the same time. And what matters, and this is the CBT lesson, the cognitive behavior therapy, is what matters is where we put our focus. And if my focus is on the storm, that's going to become the main stage of my life. I'm going to see it. I'm going to notice it everywhere. I'm going to experience it. And if I'm shifting my focus continually, reminding myself that actually the sunrise is being painted every day and that's where my focus is. If I'm looking for where God is showing up, if I'm looking for healing, if I'm looking to him for the truth, if I'm continually noticing him, that doesn't take away the sorrow. It still exists, but this is also true. And it's the truer truth, isn't it? And so continually looking for that uh sunrise for the joy like you mentioned. It's a beautiful it's a beautiful truth. >> You know, I just like love what you're saying. I was thinking of like, you know, there's a choice that we have to make. It's, you know, um because God gives us free will. It's you're going to look at the storm or the sunrise. And even I'm just saying this. I was just thinking about a pilot. You know, when they're flying, they see [laughter] I mean, we don't see it. Uh but it's like they'll see the storm and then they see what's off in the distance. And we have to trust God as being our pilot of our lives to guide us and to navigate us. And yeah, there's going to be turbulence. [laughter] And it's not, you know, sometimes it's scary, but just, you know, and usually when there's turbulence, you think of the pilot, they're like not talking. They're paying attention because they're trying to get us through it. Um, but we're going to get on to the other side and that's what we have to just hold on to and believe. And um and I'm just it's reminding me like you brought up even about Jesus like telling the disciples we're going to get to the other side but even though they encountered the storm that's like I just remembered that um that you wrote about but that's we have to just remember that that if we trust Jesus he's going to get us to the other side now. I don't know how long it's going to take. >> Yeah. >> But I mean that's that's the promise that we have is just simply that promise. >> Yeah. I love that story about him. He says let's go to the other side. He's already said, "We're going to the other side." They're like, "All right." They get in the boat and there's a storm. He knew about the storm, but this the promise is still true. We're going to the other side. And I I am so grateful for those reminders that we can dig into in his word. And honestly, and I'm sure this is true in your life, too, is that there are times where there's a lot of pull to look elsewhere for input. The very best thing we can do is crack open his word and listen to his voice because he wrote us a love letter. his voice on the pages of a book. Like, why wouldn't we want to just like absorb that in every way we can, but it's our, you know, our we scroll or we distract with doom scrolling or whatever it is that we do. And but really what the bottom line is is if we're continually going back to the word and the stories like that where you're like, wait a second, there's certain words that will pop off the page if you're prayerfully saying like, God, I'm digging into your word right now. Can you just remind me? Can you just can you just highlight certain words that you want me to hear? there is a scripture that stands out for you when you're reading his word, write that down and spend time meditating on it because there's something he wants you to know. What words jump out to you? What is it? Like if you were to look at my journal and my Bible from that time, it's just a it's just it's unbelievable. It's graffitied all throughout. Like my journals are because there's so much he wants to tell us, but we just have to listen. And when grief is loud and distracting and very overwhelming, it's hard to hear his voice sometimes. So, we have to carve out space and dig in. And and when I thought about that, we're like, "Let's go to the other side." I thought, "This is a beautiful reminder. He's taking us to the other side. It's going to be bumpy. It's going to be scary sometimes. There's going to be sorrow. There's going to be some pain for sure. He promises us in this world, you will have trouble, but take heart. I've overcome the world. We're going to the other side." And that's a wonderful, wonderful blessing to hang on to. >> It is truly a wonderful blessing. As you were talking, Nicole reminded me um of my season. And I remember my this was like the the way I had to like get through is every morning I would just pause and um I would wake up and I would just be like okay God speak something to me today like I just need to hear like I would just like Lord just speak and he would whisper like words from like the book of Psalms. And the one that really stood out um I remember I was sitting at the end of edge of my bed and I heard enlighten my darkness. And I can't remember where in the book of Psalms it is right now, but I clung on to that word and I stood on it for I don't even know how long that I would just speak that and declare that over my situation, over my life. I was like, Lord, you enlighten my darkness. You step into this dark pit. You step into this place. You step into my mind, my heart, my body, my soul, this whole situation. And it's amazing where I look at from even a year ago. Um that's because I know it was like a little more than a year and a half ago. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. That's when he like really spoke it to me how my life has been enlightened by him. It doesn't even look the same. You know, I don't even feel the same. And you probably could testify too of like that too. And you know, another thing, Nicole, I was just curious because um you know, walking through divorce, there's this whole there's a trend that's going on. It's on on Tik Tok or and on social media, but women that are just really saying like this is me when I was like before when I was going through my marital loss and divorce and here's after. It is amazing to see like the transformation. And I think that's what the power of Jesus and our grief can do is that I look like crazy and I'm at my wit's end. But when he steps in, you just you you're new. He makes you like a new creation. It's it's amazing. >> Yeah, it is amazing. And what a testament to a life turned over. what what he can do when you fully say because I don't know about you Sydney but there are so many things in my life where I'm like you can have this and this and this but you can't have that and at some point when you are face down on the floor you're like I have I'm not holding back anything now I'm going to give everything to you and and when that happens yeah that transformation it's just it's divine >> it it truly is divine and you didn't even realize like and it's this wild dichotomy that he's created in his divinity of like in the midst of the greatest desperation, the joy that starts to flood and you just you feel it all all around you. Um it's amazing and what's coming up. I know it's a therap like a therapy term for those of been in therapy because I really feel like this is a therapist session and I love it [laughter] because this is these are like I love it but the radical acceptance of when you choose to just say this has happened this took place it transpired and I accept it for what it is. Um >> and you but I mean it's not like just some like you arrive and you get there. I mean, there's a moment I I felt like in too, Nicole, that you get to a place like you radically accept what happens, but you have to remind yourself every day like this transpired. God allowed it to happen, but it's doing something even greater and deeper in me that it's it's actually the one of the greatest lessons. That's what I look at is like when I go through these hardships, I was like, I have to look at as like this isn't just happening to me, it's happening for me, and it's a lesson that I get to go on with Jesus. >> I love that. This is happening for me. That's beautiful because it really is about growth. Like, and this is maybe harsh to say and I've I've said it many many times, but like marriage isn't about happiness. It's about holiness. And let's be honest, life isn't really about happiness. It's about holiness. And so, if God is continually transforming us, then that means there's going to be some growth patterns that are very, very dis like uncomfortable. And um and so, but it's happening for us. And it's happening for the kingdom, for the greater good. because your story, my story, it matters outside of us as well. I I I speak of my one pastor often uh who um said from the pulpit uh after battling a very significant ill illness, they stood from the pulpit and held their Bible in the air and said, "If my illness, if my ill illness can help make Jesus famous, then bring it on." And I thought that is powerful. We know Jesus is already famous, but what about just pointing people to Jesus? if my illness, if my loss, if this if this trauma or struggle or tragedy or life rearranging um griefw worthy loss can in any way help point people to Jesus and and usher people through their own pain towards Jesus like then bring it on. Bring it on. Right. >> Yeah. I love that you say bring it on and the scripture that comes to mind that we overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony. And I don't know about you, but like it's funny. I feel like right now you're my prayer moments because that's what I literally I said to God. I was like, "Okay, >> if this is I had to go through this, it's all for your glory >> and I'm going to give you all the praise and honor because it has nothing to do with me. It is all a testament of who you are that and I think even Nicole seeing you and like what you shared and poured out um and just walk through is that like my goodness how God is like opening doors and he's using your story to like touch so many [laughter] I mean I you're using it for his glory and it is beautiful. Um, and just and I will say this like on and I I said this before we got started, but I mean it from bottom of my heart and you're watching this, like her book, y'all, I'm not even kidding. I was in tears. Like I was having I couldn't like I was sitting through and I was reading and I had to pause and stop because of the moments that I was having because it was bringing healing into my life. And um >> I just really want to say thank you. Uh, thank you because just yeah, things that we both have walked through like I I just felt you were right there in the midst of it and you could speak to it in a way that um was healing, that was freeing. And I have had these conversations with so many of my friends recently that are grieving just certain aspects of their lives, but it just is giving us permission to just do it with Jesus and to realize like I can be messy. It's not going to be pretty or perfect, but keep my eyes on the prize of like with Jesus. And so, yeah, it Nicole, you've touched my [laughter] touched my life. >> Yeah, you really have >> blesses me so much, Sydney. I love I love knowing that. And thank you. Thank you for that. Thank you for telling me that. That is my heart's desire with this book is I I just want to be in the living room with the women, right? And I I want people to feel seen and validated because I think there's a lot of loneliness that we go through that needs a voice and it needs to be witnessed and and so much healing happens in community and and so my heart's desire is to do exactly what you said. So I'm so grateful. Thank you for Thank you for that. >> Yeah. I'm like I'm like getting emotional because I I just remembered I like when I started reading it, I said I had tears in my eyes. I said, "Whoa, this is hitting me." Like it just landed like every like word. And um I just I was like, "Yeah, I just knew it was of God." And I'm just so grateful um because of the timing of all of it and just how like I had been my just personally just experiencing grief that I was [laughter] like I mean guys I'm not kidding like I'll be going through something and God like brings the cast. I'm like well we got to deal with it [laughter] with this so I have to go through the healing too. Um, but it's just it's just it's just it's amazing, Nicole. Like I am I I mean just there's so much that you get into where I just feel like it's freedom and it's healing. But I think that's what God is after in this season is to really heal his people um in a way and being vulnerable and open about it. Like I just feel like you you laid it all out. Like you didn't you didn't hold back. You didn't fluff it up. You didn't make it pretty. You didn't dress it up in all this like Christian language. you're like, "This is what it is, but this is how God really met me." Um, and that's beautiful. >> Thank you for that. I think the Christian platitudes, while they might be well-meaning, are ineffective and can actually add harm if we're just slapping Christian platitudes on things. The truth is that Jesus wept and he grieved and he felt abandoned and he felt anger. He felt all of the things. And so, um, I don't imagine when he sat around with his disciples that he slapped Christian platitudes on the guys when they were struggling with things. I think he held space and I think he honored their process and I think he loved them through it in a way that made them feel very, very validated and seen. And so, you know, may we may we be as best as we can like him on this side so that other people don't feel alone in their in their grief or feel like we're slapping platitudes on them. >> Yeah. I just like I was like saying just saying you were saying like the slapping the platitudes and all these things but being like Jesus to hold space for their grief for their trauma for their pain and just saying however long it takes them on this road and journey together um is truly beautiful and Nicole like I think what is so beautiful um and I have so much I have so much respect for therapists I mean I mean and counselors and just social work and like what you're doing is because I think it's very brave of you also um because of you know your profession to come come out and say this is what I've been going through because you hold a lot of space u for the people your your clients that you work with but just to go a step further and say like I want to this is my journey this is what I've walked through is truly truly incredible and so I just want to say thank you for the work that you do for the kingdom of god and um how you step into spaces like we you know there's there's so many aspects of even your career that you talked about you know you had to go into prisons and jails and talking to people that are you know outcasts of society like you've been in the trenches with people. Um, so this is real. This is like your heart, your life's work and it's it's it's amazing and um I am really really grateful for this conversation and um yeah, it's I just have this like warm fuzziness in my heart right now. [laughter] >> I really do. >> You're so great. Me too. I have just loved everything about this conversation and I'm so grateful what you just said there really uh lands with me too around just noticing that part of the work of being a therapist and a social worker is to keep a very clear professional distance and a very private life and I had to go thank you for acknowledging that and I think this is true for a lot of us who have you know wrestled with the professional code of ethics versus our code of ethics that we hel hold as Christian ministers or or authors, speakers, whatever it might be, is that I had to decide which code of ethics I was ascribing to. >> And that was really difficult for me. So to hold this very kind of private and personal kind of my things behind my personal stuff behind this, but also to put the dirty laundry out publicly, speak it from the stage, write it in the book. It felt like this very strange there was a lot of tension and I had to do a lot of my own work around that in terms of like therapeutic work around that. But the bottom line is um we're all called and we're all on assignment and God doesn't uh call us to something he's not prepared to kind of walk us through. So it has been a absolute privilege to uh see how he does that. How he has made that line just not blurry at all. And it's just been really really uh another God thing in my life. I'm very very grateful. >> I'm grateful too. I'm so grateful that you did I'm going to say cross the line because I do know like um I don't know like in like in Canada like we have hippo laws like I just know there's there's things when it comes to therapy like you it's like a you have to that the professional there is you you if you've ever done therapy sessions you do know with your therapist there's certain things that they can't dive into. Um, but I will say when my well, nobody knows who she is, but when my therapist, but there's just certain things where I I've done group therapy as well where I've been um with trauma survivors and it's amazing. And I think the moments where that they like you kind of tow the line just a little bit. It creates so much breakthrough as like a knowing >> I know what's been helpful for me is that like I've know part of my like the therapists I work their stories. It makes it it just validates it even more. like they know really what they're talking about. [laughter] You know what I mean? From the clinical perspective, but also personal that I think I don't know. I hope one day that stuff changes that more I think more are coming out and sharing what they're going through. I know here um especially in America too, but I think it's it's just necessary. Um and also my aunt is is a therapist [laughter] so I have like she so I've have conversations with with her. I just Yeah, I have so much respect for therapists and for counselors and I'm like honestly y'all this is my PSA. If you are dealing with grief and it is overwhelming, please get a therapist. I'm not kidding. Like there's just c God has given people like Nicole this beautiful gift of counsel and to navigate you through things in ways that your pastor can't. I'm just being I'm just being honest. I'm just and you know um and I think it's there it's sort of taboo I think a lot of times in Christian circles where it's like oh we don't want to go to therapy or you just some things you just can't pray away some things that that's not how it it works um and God has a different avenue but I would say the greatest thing is for me and Nicole that's why I'm like our conversations mean so much is that I've been on this journey for more than four plus years of I think maybe it's going on five I tell my therapists every it's our anniversary >> [laughter] >> like I go weekly and it has been life-changing. Um, and I just encourage all of you if like through this conversation that you've gleaned things from it that it's sparked things in you, it's healed things, it's pricricked things, but if really if you need the help, go for it. Like if you have insurance, the way they've changed insurance to cover mental health services here in America, like please, please, please go get the help that you need to have somebody like Nicole walk you through these things because it I'm not I like Nicole, if it wasn't for the work that you do, I wouldn't be the woman that I am today. And um and that's why I'm deeply like grateful. I really am. Even taking the time out, y'all, she's taking the time out to talk and chat and she got clients. I'm just like I got to let it go. [laughter] But I just Yeah. Like I mean it's just it's just a beautiful it's a beautiful thing. So I just want to say from the bottom of my heart like I love you. I want to give you a big hug. Um and I'm just so so appreciative and grateful that God connected us and I got to talk to you. [laughter] >> Me too. Me too. I'm so blessed by this conversation and I love your plug for counseling. I 100% agree. How many women say to me, "Well, I've got really good girlfriends." Yes, your girlfriends are too close up. Again, they're in the bottle. It's hard to read the label when you're inside the bottle. So, it's really a nice idea to have someone outside of your circle who is going to see things from a different perspective. And that's the counseling piece, right? And and if you can find a Christian counselor, that's preference because they're going to be able to integrate and they'll have respect for your um just where you stand spiritually and and your love for Jesus. So, but in any event, I love that you plugged counseling. Thank you for just being such a champion for it. >> Oh, you're welcome. I was like, they people they people been watching Laura, y'all know I'm like tell go to a therapist. Okay. I've had lots of therapists on this and I'll continue to have therapists and I'm and I'm telling you I'm not stopping. I don't think I'm I'm honestly this is probably a lifelong thing for me. I'm just being honest. I like my the I mean I'm just saying there's no shame but just like what Nicole is saying that yeah your girlfriends you'll you'll significant other they're too close to the situation you have to have someone a different perspective and eyes that can give you insight because it brings healing it's anyway that is our plug [laughter] >> our plug love it >> and then you know if you want to if you need you know want to get connected like there's certain things like look up the Christian therapist psychology today I look that's how I found my therapist is I prayed. I said, "God, show me who it is." Cuz he said, "I needed an expert." [laughter] And um so yeah, just somebody who's trained in the specific category that you need, if it's trauma or whatever it may be. Um and then, you know, my story is like God told me to find an expert, then I found out my my therapist, she is a Christian. Um and so it was it's amazing. Um but but anyway, I just want to say thank you again, Nicole, for joining us today on the Glory Hour. I encourage you all to get her book, The Story I Never Wanted. Like I'm telling you, you'll be in tears. This these are my notes. I'm just me. I wrote my notes. I was this is this was my healing, okay? Like [laughter] I was taking it down. So these are my notes today from what I was experiencing in counting. And then also check out the things that she does with her ministry and to support this incredible woman of God. So Nicole, honestly, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [laughter] >> Thank you, Sydney. What a pleasure to spend time with you. Just delightful. What a delightful interview. Thank you. And thank you for your work in your ministry. Well, thank you to you.