He Wanted an AI PM Job. Instead, He Built a Million Dollar AI Company.

What does look like you're able to grow your AI startup from zero to 15 people within one year and sign a million dollars deal within a year. There's so much going on in the space of AI and there's AI unicorn every single week. However, majority of AI startup couldn't reach the stage. Most of them actually fell within one or three or five months. In this episode, I had the pleasure to interview the CEO of Ottimo and he's leading a team of 15 people and just signed another huge billion dollar contract with really big companies and he's going to share with you how he's able to start a successful AI startup so that you can embark your AI journey as well. >> [music] >> Hey guys, this is Dr. Nancy Lee, direct product feature in Forbes. I've helped thousands people land a dream PM job offer in FAN companies and unicorn startup and continue to promote as product leader. In this channel, we'll talk about tech trends and free product management training. Like and subscribe to our new video every Tuesday. Hi Afham, welcome to the product insider podcast. How are you doing? >> I'm very well, Dr. Nancy. Hi again. How are you doing? >> I'm doing very well. I'm so excited having you join us. Um through our last conversation, and I believe your company recently signed a really big deal in the AI for construction industry and you also grew rapidly from zero to 15 people and with all the excitement, why don't we do this? Why don't you introduce yourself to the audience, who you are and also what your journey from technology manager to funding a successful AI startup? >> So, okay. So, hello everyone. In case you don't know me, I'm Afham. I'm the founder of Ottimo. I have a mechanical engineering and system engineering background, both from University College London. After writing my dissertation in for my technology management masters, I was able to get back from our university to be accepted in into their incubator. Um so far um we are building products for um complex project environments, including uh construction sector. Um and so far I'm very happy with and I love what we do at Optimo for for uh integrating AI in all the industries that we can have our hands on. >> Very cool. So, Afshin, let's talk about it. And I know you're quite humble regarding how you grow your team, and one most important element is that your product actually solving the most urgent needs in the space of construction, which is super traditional, but they always have like big billion-dollar contracts need to be uh be disrupted. Um can you tell us more regarding your product Optimo and how it's using AI to transform the construction industry? >> So, Dr. Nancy, construction industry have very specific file formats. And uh getting the context from one's tool to another environment is crucial. Because when when you are having this um transfer conducted by a human, lots of errors might be happening. So, we are pretty much operating in the project information management, building information management area, helping teams to reduce costs during governance, hit their budgets, and hit their construction projects or whatever project that any team might be conducting hit on time, and as as set uh within budget and with good quality. >> So, Afshin, something specific about construction industry, what I heard is actually like the 13 hours lost per week per person to look for different files. Is that true? Can you tell me more regarding the those kind of knowledge management systems and problems in the construction industry. >> Well, yes. Um since the people who input the information, they have to share it with other stakeholders, you have to guide them. You have to uh let them know where that information is because if you don't do it, as you just mentioned, 13 hours get lost per week for looking for data per person. And this equates to 52% of the rework done in every construction. So, uh whatever rework is done, 52% the cause is miscommunication and bad uh data management. Uh on a This is the smallest scale. On a larger scale, uh when you go from one project to another, 95% of information is left behind. So, the maturity and the growth of of the company the does only evolve with the humans that keep on working in that company. We want to change that. We want to give a spirit to every company with with our system so that uh the company can remember the performance, can remember the quality, can remember the the project life cycle, and uh transfer it through uh generations rather than only from project to another project, carry it on to through generations. >> Yeah, it's crazy. And actually this remind me uh in our last last episode when I talked to Tina, she was actually architect. She's designing different houses. She was literally talking about every day during the day she was just doing all the manual operation, looks at data, and putting different file. And only in the evening she has work overtime to do the real creative design. Which is speaking to what you just told us. It's this is surprisingly a big problem that somehow hasn't solved yet. This is like crazy. So, can you give us a demo regarding how exactly you solve those big problem and help them really save those hours. >> Yes, to start with we we have basically um share shared a premium with our community. With this premium product, you are able to upload design files, drawing files, and we are able to extract that information so that you are able to chat with it. Even with the most up-to-date chat GPT tools, uh what whenever you upload a drawing file, this can the agents, the coding agents um does the coding, the setup environment from zero. In our case, we we help you uh get better context. Even if the the agents there, they they create this environment for you, you are unable to get your answer in less than 20 minutes, which is critical for construction projects. In our case, you are able to upload your document, and once it's uploaded, you can even chat with it offline uh when you whenever you are on construction site. This is important because when you do that file or design just like the the the the person you mentioned, um you have to share that knowledge. You have to share that uh version uh with the other stakeholders. And that's where we we are targeting, the sharing uh of the knowledge. >> This is so beautiful. And actually, Tina, is your alumni AIPM book camp. I believe she said she >> The lady >> After you. >> Yes. >> Yeah, um if anybody who's interested in regarding how uh people use AI to manage uh the construction project, she's a mainly specialized in using AI to like manage all the handyman, fixing the houses. Um if people interested, going to watch my video right here, and also link in the description of the show notes. And after you, let's do this. Um clearly, there is a real big money, Big business value. Um can you share with us regarding how you land the first paying customer? Because what I believe is that what I heard last time we met, the moment you graduate from AIPM bootcamp, you already had like four of you customers who knock on your door saying, "Hey, want to check it out. I'm real pain." So, tell us how exactly you land your first paying customer. >> Well, to be honest, you have a big part in this as we took part in the bootcamp. Uh long story short, we took part I took part in the bootcamp. Uh we were able to become a great team and produce a demo out of it. Uh to get to the demo, we conducted customer interviews and the problem was there. Once we have after the bootcamp, I just took the demo. I went to the same people whom we we have conducted the the interviews with and they loved it. And the next question was, "What do I need to put on top of this so that you start paying me?" So, as simple as that. So, until that question, uh the whole journey began with the bootcamp. >> Beautiful. Um so, let let's be specific. >> Yes. >> And I believe recently, right now, you're a team of 15 people within a year. You grew really fast. And I believe last week when we talked, you already land a really big contract. The company is actually with like revenue of $20 billion. Tell us more how you actually start with your first paying customers and then go to bigger contract. What did the journey look like? Is that a straight shot or just different variation? Um because I assume like doing BD or sales to construction industry is very different because it's very traditional industry. So, how did you grow from first paying customer to big contract that happened within a year? >> Well, yes. I think there is no straight path to it. There is only one thing. It's just getting to know your problem space. Just starting to work on it. Um I was looking for jobs and I stopped looking for jobs and I just put 100% of myself into this. And because this whole journey with PMA is actually focusing on landing a job and that's when I talked and I said I want to go this way. And by working in the area, by talking to customers, the more you understand many problems and if you focus on only one of them, you can build a company. So it's it's really just a matter of getting to work. As you work talking to the customers in the product management journey and the more you talk to them, the more you get references and the more you can get in touch, the more you can talk to the to the spirit and the problems that they are having and once they see that you are understanding them, it means that you must be able to also solve them. And I suppose customer experience is key in our company which we put at the our forefront. And that might be also how we are able to land our customers. >> This is beautiful. I like that you actually like focus on entrepreneurship. Remember we had a one-on-one so funny after bootcamp you come to me and say, "Nancy, you have all my plans. I was here to land a job. Now I start my own company." >> Yes. >> You created a job for yourself. >> And I said >> And you helping other people. >> Yes, and I said you it's because you gave me the confidence out of this bootcamp and now I'm going to pursue this and just because of you. >> Uh thank you. Totally my pleasure. Um >> Thank you. Thank you. The the thanks are all from my side. >> Yeah, I I personally believe that my biggest pleasure is seeing my student actually soar through the sky. There's no limit if you putting all your effort in it. I also really love that you you found the opportunity, you went all in. You literally went all in which also now you're 15 people would also believe the one of biggest challenges also winning your first funding partner. Because you were original solo entrepreneur, we gave you a team of engineers, but you also need a CTO as a co-founder grow with with you and also building all the B2B interest before launch and I'm just at the very beginning. I'm the the first stepping stone push you and then you grew from there. So, tell us more how you win your first winning like funding partner, CTOs, how you get them on board? >> Yeah, to to to start with the I'll just highlight one key area that I forgot to mention. After the boot camp, we were also we got back from the number one architecture school in the world, which is University College of London and from there as well, we are getting reference and even being there the network there is also a game-changer for us and once you get in there um you are able to get in touch with amazing talents such as our chief scientific officer. So, it took me going back to to your question here, it took me between three to six months to land my first hire and to start working with this person. The first hires are very important and so far we've been working together for almost a year now. Um it's a great journey, lots of up and downs, but the way that I landed is I was able to find specific people who were experts in the area, but who were looking for such an environment to focus their work. We love what we do at Ultimo from starting from the philosophy of trying to help people stay in the moment up to the level of inform project information management. How can we resolve this construction construction issues? How can we adapt adaptive agents, world models, reinforcement learning. All these key emerging technologies and having the chance to play with these tools and technologies and trying to build products with it is something that many people would like to work on and that I suppose that's why people applied in the first place, but selecting that person was the hard selecting the people are the hardest part. >> Yeah, let's talk more about this. Uh which also believe that this reflection of great leader in the space of AI because nowadays everybody or most people want to join a fast-growing AI startup. Of course, they want to join or like OpenAI and Anthropic, but if they couldn't join those, you join a fast-growing AI startup. Yours clearly growing really fast, so you're not lack of talent. But you are lack of understanding which talent is better fit so that you grow sustainably which go from 1 to 15 people. So, can you tell me what is the secret of growing your team so quickly? And also understand who to hire and who to fire and how to manage all these team management. I think it's crucial that most people don't talk about in the age of AI. Tell us more. >> Well, the first thing is you can hire as much as you want. I mean, you can you if you have the necessary funds, you can just hire as if you were OpenAI. We have also make the distinction that OpenAI is a it's not a zero-to-one company. They already achieved the the post one. On our case, we are still zero-to-one. We are still we have a product market fit, but we have to scale it. We have to get it out there. We have to improve it. Uh and from these tasks which are either short-term strategic or long-term strategic, we we try to fit people that have uh multiple depth of knowledge, which we called it double T. So, that's the that's one thing that we look at in in our hiring. So, when we are hiring someone, for sure, we are a startup. We cannot hire one per specific person expert for one role. No, can are you a double player? Okay, you are a CTO, but can you also become a CSO? Okay, you are a scientific officer, but I can you also be a chief AI officer? So, you have that depth of AI, but still that research aspects on on going. >> In summary, sounds like several things happen. You inspire and continue grow their career in AI and falling in love with the product. On top of that, you also hiring those kind of people who wear multiple hats. Uh, which is also what I suggest all my student who want to break into AI, especially I really if everybody look up on the news, every single week there's a unicorn AI company, which is measured by your valuations over 1 billion dollars every week out there. Right? So, for people to really advance their career in the space of AI and people to really need to figure out how can help a startup to scale, because if you join a really big company, you're one pocket in one hole. So, I have a I have a student actually join Apple. But, she was 4 months into Apple. Now, she was like, "darkness, let me join other fast growing AI startup, because I only do one thing in Apple. Very niche work on Siri product, only Siri. And not all the all different things Siri is like one little thing of Siri. And I only do one part and hand over to another person. I'm just one of those people in the assembly line, right? So, therefore, it's a great opportunity for people who have those multi-talent capability, who is interested doing more than just one cookie cutter thing. And they cut another thing, another thing. Well, even if you work for Apple, yeah, you have glory, but you would I think it's more fun to work on other fast-growing AI startup, especially for those young people or people who are new into AI. Um you're great. That's how you select your talent. That's That's very exciting. >> And to start with, I think um people who who maybe during their university years, if they have not conducted internships in in big corporate corporate job entities, they should definitely jump into startups because that's one thing that I always uh hated. Uh you know, I'm in a job and if someone tells me I finish my job and if I say, "Okay, I want to do also this part of Siri." Or I want to, you know, "Can I just do this?" And if they tell me, "Oh, this is the job of someone else. You don't do that." At that point, I'm I'm 95 99% sure that I will leave the job within the next month one month. If someone just stops me there. Of course, this is important as I'm working with people. We are also trying to uh you know, have the understanding of focus uh because we have to have match development and expertise and the job that needs to be conducted today. Uh but in startups, this is gray rather than black and white as I uh compared to Open AI or big Apple Apple-like companies. >> That's true. That's true. Yeah, people working for Apple maybe think about quitting your job. And think only work on one small thing. And uh the the sooner I finish my PhD, I feel I have a calling to work for startup. Whenever I interview a startup, I'm more excited. When I'm interviewed big companies, I'm okay, I'm there for H-1B uh for a job because they sponsor. Well, small startups sponsor, too. Everybody like I I spent 11 years to get my green card, 17 years to get my citizenship. I know everything about all the sponsorship nowadays. Small startups sponsor as well. Even our company very small, I sponsor all those like uh whatever H1B and other OPT other stuff as well in our own company. Small startup sponsors too. People have misperceptions. They say oh big companies sponsor. No, small ones can sponsor too. It's just very different knowledge you guys have. I have a separate video talking about how I became a US citizen after 11 years and after 17 years with all different tips and tricks. You guys should watch this video right here. I'm also going to link it in the description of the show note. But either way so let's continue and let me let me me dive deeper. Like dive deep on people part. What are the hardest people decision I've had in such a small team? Let's like tell me more. Give me more. The hardest decisions regarding people because I know it's the hardest thing. >> Well, yeah the we are talking about the the the topic of zero to one. >> Mhm. >> It's it's really setting the culture. It's a very turbulent environment. Motivation i- is also turbulent. Sometimes you go three steps ahead, sometimes you go two steps back. What what and keeping the motivation high. Setting the culture, setting the standards, keeping those stan- standards high is I think the the most important people decisions that we are facing every day. Because you cannot let let your guard loose. Every day you have to set your expectations high. And one thing that I tell to my team is we have two enemies in the company. The first one is being satisfied, the second one is perfection. And in between we have our value excellence. Which we try to hit every day as people, as a team and in in the products that we are building. It's easy to tell but hard to do people motivational life cycle that say setting the culture and maintaining it as well, with this understanding of excellence. If you lose it, that's when you you go down. And that's when you go to big when you look to big startups and so on, you see if they let if they let their guards guard loose, they just expire. So, and we are we have we are just starting it. >> Yeah, do you have to restructure your team in some ways for people who doesn't meet the company culture? Did it already happen in your team? >> Well, based on statistics, 50% of your hires uh are not going to make it. And and unless you start working with someone, uh you don't know if they will meet the culture that you are setting. They will be able to adapt to that culture. Or they will be able to set set the quality standards and meet the quality standards for themselves. Um So, the the >> That's very well spoken. >> Yeah. >> That's very true. >> And and that's also what I tell to my team as well, which is would you want a C-level player sitting next to you? Would you like to work with this person, spend your time explaining to this person, or would you just like to work with A-level players just like you are? And so easy to tell, hard to do. Bringing A players together, setting the tone, setting the standards. These that's why it requires some some days not very happy actions. >> I can see that. Also, like how you put the phrase in a would you like to hang out with a C players when I work with C players. And sometimes the A players, if we do not let go the C players in a team, you're going to drag down A players. A player become B players. Oh, they do this. They can do this. Oh, I can come up to work late. Oh, I can be delayed sometimes. I won't get published why I work so hard. Yeah, the A players will become B players. This is a important that I recently learned as well. My mentor Interesting. One of my mentors, she is a lady who runs a construction company for 20 years. Could be a potential customer, by the way. Just found out. She She just celebrated her 20-year anniversary. Crazy. And then she was telling me about culture, all of that. She said something very profound. She said culture very important, Nancy. Something more important than culture is you give yourself permission to transform yourself to be the leader you want to be, to assign the value you person want to have and pass on the value to a team. You need to live to the highest standard who you are first and set the culture, set the tone instead of being a little firefighter doing all the operations, we aren't getting distracted by small stuff. All come from the top. I'm still in the process digesting, implementing myself. Um whenever I reach the next level myself, I will film myself in episode and share with you guys. But yeah, those are important skills all the AI leaders need to master because I believe those people skills, leadership skills is only skills that can and only cannot be replaced by AI. All the technical skills gradually getting replaced AI in a year or two or three. That's it. Um the next level is we need to learn how to lead and manage people better. Cool, Effron. And thank you for bringing this to us and most people don't talk about this elephant in the room about people and giving us all the enlightening. Now, let's talk about the technology and also AI element developing your product, right? So, what's your secret actually developing your AI product in just 2 months? And remember at the beginning you have a very good working product working MVP and people ready your early adopter ready to use it and you did really fast and tell us more what happened and what you learned and learned building the product from zero to one. Within two months. >> Yes, well within two months well we saw the example at the boot camp first of all that that was the first time that I was able to tell myself and that's how I gained the confidence saying okay we just a team of nine people or 10 people we are able to build a product in two months. Now our team is able to build a ship a product every month the team I have formed right now. So this is again the boot camp let me show me the way and the methodology to set the standards the milestones for the product life cycle. And of course there were also my education and the collaboration with the experts in our team. And together we were able to use AI tools just the up-to-date foundation models to help us code everything but we cannot let it to write code only. We have to also check the quality standards for it and yes we we built our own engineering system which is now performing and it is part of our culture. I can get to more details if you have if you want me to highlight any specific area so that >> Yes, I do have more detail but I want to ask it from different ways and of course each of the AI element you did the AI agent many different things you you built AI agent before it was popular. You built it now everyone building AI agent you built a year ago and which also led to your success much faster than others but I want to ask you questions through a different angle which is what challenge do you face when you implementing developing such AI agent product even a year ago right now maybe easier but or maybe you're ahead of other people. A year later when they reach your stage right now, they're saying they're seeing different type of challenges. So, what challenge did you face when implementing such cutting-edge technology? >> Well, the first one is user adoption. There's a gap There's a huge gap between people who adopt AI and people who don't. There are still people who who did not download ChatGPT, who did not make a chat subscription, who doesn't understand prompt prompt engineering. So, when you talk with people or even when you develop it, how are you going to build your user experience so that these people are can also use these tools? On top of it, are you going to provide any training for these people? Uh okay, adaptive agents, they do something for you. Guard railing is guard rails for these tools is something else. Security is another. Uh so that they don't go wrong. Uh and meeting Do they meet the quality standards or do I have to go back and check on that same same AI just like I'm checking C players? So, if we are not building A-level age agents, uh why do we even sell it to to our customers? So, which comes back to again to customer experience. I think this is this loop is the hardest part. Uh with the security, with adoption, with guard rails, emergence of the evolution of the AI itself, and how do we get a customer experience out of it? It's a wide range, a very wide area, and lots of potential for creativity. >> Very well spoken, which is also the difference between people who do a prototype versus starting a real AI company with real paying customers. Right? I think nowadays because of the age of white coding, which we teach you how to white code, right? You guys take uh training your engineers to actually learn live coding from us as well. But people really want miss that by live coding. Live coding is a way for you to quickly do prototype. It's not another way to replace engineering team. It's not a way to direct oh, let's start having paying customers. It's way big differences. And most most likely when you have live coding product, your security user is not set up in the right way. When customer start using that and your AS start break because start to hallucinate and then actually more user you get and the more challenging for you to scale your AI product. Most people just think you live code something, right? I'm so smart about it. 30 minutes, I teach you how to do it. It's free, guys. You can learn from me 30 minutes. Go to my YouTube channel, teach you how to do it. So, it's not about that. It's what really takes great uh great AI startups having the user, people using it and figure out all the guardrails and and watch the monitoring data drift and concept shift and having people start paying for your product. That's a true definition successful AI product manager and AI entrepreneur. Um so, what you also suggest everybody number one thing we need to do is actually start a real-life AI product. I have a list of 20 different product ideas you can start gaining hands-on experience starting from day one. Um you can go to our website pmstarter.io/aiproductideas to download the checklist. I'm also going to link it in the description of the show note as well. Um so, ahem, so let me ask you one final very technical question. What tools and models have you leveraged to create your AI agent product? >> So, we are using the the most intelligent up-to-date tools available in the market at any point for the specific tasks. We are using artificialanalysis.com or there is a website like this and we are checking what LLM models or foundation models are good for which task and and we do our own routing based on that. Uh on top of it, we are considering on-premise solutions which can run on your phone but also on a device depending on the hardware that's been provided. Of course, it's an emerging field and we are trying to stay up-to-date with these and adapt it to our evolving system architecture. And I that's one thing I want to I wanted to highlight. You can write code any product, but you need to set the the the system architecture there. You need to plan ahead how you are going to set that system architecture, which interviews are you going to do, which component testing are you going to do. And then define that overall system architecture. That's why 60% of the job or even I suppose 80% of the job these days is about planning, 10 10% or I suppose even it should be even more 15% is quality control, and 5% is actually doing the the work. So, in our company, we assess this by asking in the last interview question. We have a huge whiteboard and the people they actually have done their homework like we give them take-home assignments. When they come, they they are not allowed to have their computer on or anything like that. We just give them the the the whiteboard whiteboard pen and we ask them, you are in a meeting, nobody knows what work you have done, what was your task, why it was given to you, explain it to us and you can only use the whiteboard. If the people know what they have done and they understand the quality, the reasoning, they can show it on a whiteboard. If not, well, that's this this is come back down to the actual way of the work being done. Was it white >> Exactly. >> Yeah, so people who just want to do the simple fast way to show something with a real users, it will show up during the interview. An interviewer can quickly see it's time to test out. So, therefore, never just do shortcut and really get your hands-on experience. Um so, for people who'd interest in learning more regarding how to gain hands-on experience by leading a team of a team of 10 engineers um by attending our AI PM bootcamp, you can go to this uh link in below of the video and book a call with our career advisor to see if you qualify for the program. You can also download our the syllabus in the description show notes as well. And FM, question for you. How can people sign up for your AI product today? It sounds very, very exciting, to be frank. So, how can we uh uh get hands-on it and then give it a try? >> Well, uh you can follow me on LinkedIn, first of all. Follow our company page. We are We are social and we are social presence is also uh growing. Um you can reach out to our website, panovia.ai, where our product is there. Uh and you can uh try it today free. Um and you can also keep keep up with atimo.com where we are um publishing the the products that we are developing, inviting talents to develop with us, but also uh become pilot customers uh so that we develop these products together. So, whatever stage or category you are in, you can definitely get in touch with us and uh we can help people stay in the moment together. >> Beautiful. Uh I'm going to link in description of the show notes but all the link he just mentioned. And make sure to follow him on uh LinkedIn and Instagram and Twitter, all different channels as well. So, what advice do you have for AI entrepreneur and AI product managers nowadays? >> Whatever you do, uh don't go into the perfection side. It will never be perfect. Don't get satisfied. Just start do it, Um this is a cliche but it's so true. Once you start working on it, it evolves. So that's what I would suggest to everyone. >> Beautiful. Just like a free Nike commercial plug-in. Just do it. >> [laughter] >> So I always ask all my partners >> with Timo and Nike. Please collaborate. >> [laughter] >> Oh yes. Yes. Yes. That's a different way to generate revenue stream. So Afram, I always ask all my guests the final two questions at the end of the podcast, which is I I'm a big believer of growth mindset. I think we school life is a school. We continue grow ourselves. So how do you grow yourself professionally and personally? What resources do you recommend for people to grow themselves nowadays? >> Well, the first thing is build your agentic environment properly. First thing first, you need to always keep up keep up-to-date with which how can I use agents to help my business? How can I integrate it? The other thing is a lot of self-reflection and maybe this like books which you can find everywhere. The the books that are highly suggested by top entrepreneurs. Which if I just I can list tens and maybe even hundreds of these. Just start reading them. Get your mind out of it. And last but not least, get yourself a hobby because you will need it. You will need to get your mind out of it if you just start doing it. So this is something that you will need and also everyone looks for hobbies. So I would fear someone who doesn't have a hobby and comes to me and just starts working with us. >> Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. You're inspiration for all of us. Everyone make sure to follow and reach out. So what's the best way for people to reach out to you personally, Effem? >> Um they can reach out to me on LinkedIn. Um and they would definitely be able to get in touch with me. They can drop me a message from there. Um I would most probably probably see it and get in touch. Worst case scenario, they can they can reach out to our team uh through our web pages. >> Thank you so much for sharing with us, Effem, regarding your journey growing from zero to 15 people and this is and landing a company that have $20 billion size uh company as your customer. This is very very exciting. Um so, everybody, if you find this show insightful and inspiring, make sure to like, comment, subscribe to our YouTube channel, Apple podcast, Spotify, Twitter, X, LinkedIn, Instagram, and TikTok, all the social channel by searching Dr. Nancy Li with the same handle. And so that, we're going to know you actually find out this in content very inspiring and it's going to be the inspiration for all me and my team continue bring the best guest and help you continue to grow together in the age of AI. Make sure to also to leave the five-star review and I actually personally read all the five-star review to know what your thought process and how we can improve the future show as well. This is a great source of motivation for me to continue to create the best content for all of you guys. And this is Dr. Nancy Li from PM Accelerator. For everybody who's interested in PM Accelerator AI PM bootcamp, make sure to go to our website to learn more about it and to book a call with our career advisor to see if you qualify for the program. I'm going to link it in the description of the show note. Thank you so much for joining us, Effem. Have a good day. >> Have a good day, everyone, and thank you so much again, Dr. Nancy Li. Very nice to see you one more time. >> All right. Talk to you soon. Everybody, watch the next video right here and continue AI journey right here.