Happy new year

Hello everyone and welcome to Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe and I'm the host and the producer of the chats which are a program of the leather archives and museum. Maybe some of you have missed me. I had a bit of a uh what do you call it? A sbatical today. This year I decided I'd move cross country. Okay, not maybe the most sane decision I ever made, but it got me to Palm Springs, California. And now I'm picking up with the chats again. And I'm starting with Mr. Gary Chaiester of Chicago. Imagine that. Hi, Gary. How are you? >> I'm really good, Doug. Thank you. >> Okay. Oh, >> you're warmer than I am. I can tell you that. >> Sorry, what? >> You're warmer than I am. Well, you know, there was a reason I moved here, and it sure wasn't for, you know, something simple. It was for warmth and heat and sunshine. And well, here I am. >> We just had our first blizzard, and it's not even Thanksgiving yet. So, yeah. >> And therein is the reason I left Chicago. There I said it. You know, I here ice is in my drink. Snow is is on the television. You know, just >> ice is in our streets and snow is too. >> God. Oh, and we just had um uh gay pride and we just had leather pride here. So, it was a wonderful couple of weeks. >> I saw a lot of uh media coverage on the pride celebration there. that new statue that they put in the new sculpture that >> Yes. Yes. >> Amazing. >> You know, I have not yet been over there to see it. I got to get off my butt. >> It looks beautiful. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's uh wonderful. But I'll tell you, just just an aside here, how different the Pride parade was in Palm Springs versus Chicago. Night and day. Noticeable. Shocking. Oh, >> in Palm Springs, there were no children all over the place, no strollers, no pets, no no dogs, nothing. The if people had trash or something, they must they took it away and did whatever they do with it because there was no litter ever anywhere. [laughter] That is >> and yeah and um astoundingly no protesters >> nothing. I was gobsmacked. So >> see for like 30 some years we've had our protesters >> y >> down on diversity. >> Yep. >> It's a it's a ritual, you know. It's a >> Yeah. >> We had nothing nothing like that. And I was trying to think of the crowds were not as big, [clears throat] but uh still it was a decent crowd. It was a decent population to see, you know. But I'll tell you, I I actually was remarking to people how surprised I was by this. So anyway, let's start right at the very beginning. Now, please tell us a little bit about where you're from and a little bit about your family. You're from Chicago. Yes, >> I'm a native Chicagoan, one of the few and I I'm really proud of the city. I'm uh have always been proud of the city. When I grew up, I actually moved from downtown, what's now Oldtown, out to the northwest side, and eventually out to the northwest suburbs, close northwest suburbs. uh brought up in a not a political family but a right you know leaning family >> uh you know conservative and to this day I still >> feel that that >> pressure sometimes I feel the pressure sometimes you know around Thanksgiving and Christmas >> in conversations you know how that goes >> uh they're not too bad with the LGBT issues But you know some of the other issues I you know I have trouble dealing with sometimes. >> How do you manage it? >> Huh? >> How do you manage it? >> I I just it's everyone's freedom of speech. If they respect my, you know, speech, I can respect theirs. >> Okay, good. >> You know, and but they also have to realize when people make stupid comments, then I put them in a different category. You know, they're not my favorite anymore. and I kind of lose respect if they're just, you know, watching TV or watching a certain TV station and only getting that aspect. >> Yeah, >> I like to think that I'm, you know, try to check out various news media, social media >> to get myself a, you know, rounded idea of what's actually going on in the world. Because when it comes to politicians, there's many I just don't trust at all. Uh yeah, can imagine that. [clears throat] So what is your what are your thoughts on the current uh things coming along? I mean it's been tumultuous over the last few days with things coming up out of Washington. >> Well, Chicago is being picked on uh you know unfairly and it's more of a grudge than it is politics. >> Yeah, I agree. And uh you can't you know you see all this uh you know people that are trying to you know live a life and in a comfortable city and they're making Chicago on a worldwide basis look like you know back in the 30s during prohibition which it isn't. You know we have our issues like every major city. >> Yeah. >> But Chicago is one of the most beautiful cities in the world. up there with everybody else. We have great uh entertainment. We have great mu museums. We have a beautiful lakefront. Uh you know, good parks, you know, a very vibrant LGBTQ community. And it's gone back Chicago was one of actually Illinois was the first state in the union to eradicate saty laws. >> Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, >> back in 1961. And >> no kidding. >> We've, you know, we're some states were still putting people in jail for consensual sex acts. Chicago abolished that. In some states, you can even be put to death. It's on the law, you know, on the books still as laws. So, you know, we have you we have a way to go. You know, this last uh you know, this particularly, you know, I thought we were going to lose our marriage equality uh rights. >> Yes. >> But, you know, it would go to this that on a national level. Illinois is fairly safe because we have a good governor. We have a good, you know, decent mayor. >> Yeah. >> Uh and a county board president. Uh, so we're we have a good strong relationship with the political aspect of the family. We're the gayest city council in the country. >> Wow. >> Gay and lesbian folks as older people. >> Wow. >> So, we're quite an amazing city. >> I learn all of this after I leave. I mean, what in the world? >> You know, you should have stayed at least. Well, come back on the summertime, you know. Yeah. Now the the sodomy laws, what what brought that up in 1961? >> They were redoing the constitution and it just was politically, you know, advantageous to, you know, do it. There are some friendly people in the state government. >> Wow. Wow. >> Wow. >> That that's amazing. I truly did not know that. >> Yeah. Now, um, you were you were the baby of the family. Yes. >> Yeah. >> How did that impact things for you? Or it did it? >> It did. I was spoiled and I liked it. [laughter] >> How were you spoiled? >> Oh, just uh being the only boy and I have two older sisters and my one older sister is a wannabe school teacher. So I was always the student, honorary student in the family. So she'd sit down and we'd play school and I actually learned some things, you know. >> Wow. >> So and they, you know, kind of watch and, you know, took care of me. But, you know, we still I get blamed for being the baby and how spoiled I am, but yeah, that's what I do. I'm sweet and gorgeous and cute and all the above. But did your sister go on to be a teacher? >> No, she didn't. She has a niece who is a teacher and she's very envious of my niece who teaching second grade kids and you know and she's a great grandmother and she likes that role a lot. Yeah. So >> why didn't she become a teacher? Was there some problem or >> she got married when she was young and it just that in those days >> it was important to find that man and get married and live your life forever after happily. >> There you go. Yeah. >> She's grown up since then. You know, it's it's not the Aussie and Harriet time anymore. You know, the early 50s, >> you know, that was the time. [laughter] My gosh. Now, um, you attended school, this was of course when you were a little older, with someone who became very famous, very successful. Who was it? >> Uh, it was a person that I met in my freshman year in high school because my district, this is the time I was out in the suburbs. We came from, you know, the northwest side. So there were different influences of displayplaines which is a bluecollar uh suburb, Niles which is also kind of bluecollaresque and Park Ridge which is kind of conservative and upper you know upper level >> and uh so I wanted I was involved in junior high on student council and different things. So I was getting my taste of politics back as far as you know grammar school and high school and I liked it. So first thing that we did when we started school my freshman year I joined the freshman homecoming float committee and who did I meet but a young girl who's with her coke bottle glasses and it was Hillary Clinton. >> Gosh rod him at the time. >> Yeah. and uh kind of sweet, shy, you know, comes from a conservative background as it turned out. Uh and uh she was kind of an influence because coming from a conservative side, when I later came out and realized about the Vietnam War and different things, um I found out that uh Hillary was actually at the same demonstrations that I was at. >> Wow. changing her politics a little bit from, you know, conservative to more progressive. >> Wow. That had to be pretty radical. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then, uh, when it came to them, Bill and Hillary being in the White House, uh, they made a Bill Clinton was on the Today Show and two of our co-chairs of the reunion committee said, "Oh, we're having a reunion." And you know with the first couple like to you know be there and well it turned out we had that reunion that year was in Washington complete with a tour private tour of the White House for the class. >> Wow. The event was at the Smithsonian uh one of the buildings on Smithsonian you grounds and it was quite the you know quite the thing and I always thought it was like we had people that didn't like her politics at the time so they boycotted the reunion. >> I think wow >> why would you do that? you're invited to Washington for your reunion with the president of the United States and your classmate the first lady and you're not gonna go and it was plus Fourth of July weekend which in Washington is a show in itself >> just amazing so it was one of the highlights I had invited my family along and we had a great time even though they didn't come to the you know the actual event you know they were still at the White House. We got to see the helicopter land, you know, on the yard and as we were taken to Camp David for the Fourth of July holiday and I thought, "Oh, this is really something." So, yeah, it was it's a good memory. >> Wow. >> She'd end up coming back to our reunions after that. >> Oh my gosh. I have a friend a friend who lives in Michigan and he was going to be my date for the reunion back a little later after that. >> He wasn't able to make it. So Hillary walks up and I'm on my cell phone, you know, with Jim, you know, Jimmy who's, you know, my friend. And uh Hillary walks by, Hillary, would you mind saying hello to Jim? He's in Michigan. Blew him away. that actually the first lady was talking to on a cell phone >> and she's she's that kind of she's been to a few of them. >> I just had my turns out probably going to be the final reunion this past summer. >> Wow. >> She she wasn't there. She's kind of keeping it lowkey, you know. >> Wow. Now, thoughts about the White House. >> Thoughts about the White House? What did you think of that? >> I I love the White House. uh in my career uh we I've come from an event planning meeting planning career >> and we u in addition to working with Oprah Winfrey on a lot of her events we were also uh part of the Obama Christmas decor team for like four years >> and it really became um you really got to respect because they would invite we'd manage it but They had volunteers from all walks of life, all ulks of politics and for one purpose. They loved the United States. They loved the White House and you know they and they wanted to and they love Christmas. So it all kind of came together and that was another wonderful time to um you know be part of. We'd go, they have a warehouse out in Maryland, which is like the attic of the White House. You go out there just like there'd be Easter bunnies over here and Christmas decor over there. >> Everything would go through. Any shipments would always go through this White House for security purposes [clears throat] before they're trucked over to the White House. >> So, we'd go and prep at the warehouse and then we'd have it delivered to Big Pomp and circumstances. The Christmas tree for the blue room was brought up by wagon and you know there's all kinds of tradition. >> Wow. Wow. >> That's kind of getting lost now. I just posted on Facebook yesterday, as a matter of fact, a dear friend of mine, Megan, who was part of my Christmas team. Uh we went back for the Pride reception at the White House and had a picture of the two of us taken on the steps of the East Wing and I thought that's so sad that that's all gone. >> Yeah. Yeah. [snorts] just how it was done and everything else. It really, you know, it's it shouldn't have a building that is bigger than the White House sitting next to it for God only knows what purpose. >> Who knows? Yeah. >> I hope it's nothing like their Marilago parties with, >> you know, women in cocktail glasses, you know, half naked >> and, you know, just [laughter] >> this surprise you? No, it doesn't surprise me, but it's again when you go back to the tradition of, you know, the White House, it just how it was. >> The man doesn't know what tradition is. All it is is money and crass >> attitudes, you know. But that's just my own political views. Some people love them. For what reason? I have no idea. >> Me either. But I I can't help but wonder uh Hillary Clinton had gone on, of course, to be a very successful attorney in that. And I think wasn't she the first first lady to actually work outside the home, I guess, working as an attorney. Um >> probably I can't don't even remember. It seems long ago when all that was coming up. >> She was a housewife in Arkansas. >> Oh, okay. I didn't even when I, you know, in politics where I knew that there was a Bill Clinton coming up, I didn't realize that Hillary was his wife because we had kind of lost touch over the years. >> And uh then when that all came together, I was quite fascinated by it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And she was state senator. She I always thought that she you know behind they worked as a team >> much like the Obamas worked as a team where they weren't just the cute little house. So I >> you know over you know here they where if it wasn't for one the other one wouldn't be what they are today or word you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. I Wow. That's all I could say. Wow. you good for women's rights because >> you know you're just not born to be a housewife. You're >> Yeah. >> born to be an individual and support >> and have a brain and go out and use it and do things. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Exactly. Amazing. Truly amazing. >> Yeah. >> Now, um what were your thoughts when their term was ending after they were their two terms? Yes. So when that was ending, what were your thoughts? >> I was sad. Uh I but then I thought she was going to actually make it to be the first female president of the United States. >> Would have been great. I'm involved with the Chicago LGBT Hall of Fame and the election between uh where she lost to Trump in 2016 >> was very sad in our Hall of Fame induction was just a couple days after the election. actually was the day after the election >> and people I thought, "Oh my god, we're going to it's going to be like a funeral instead of a celebration of our community. It's going to be a funeral." >> And as it turned out, it people were touched and they were crying and they were doing things, but it was the best turnout that we ever had for the Hall of Fame. >> Wow. And people needed to be together in order to, you know, you had to be with people, give them a hug or whatever it takes to >> increases the fight, but gives us that sense of power that we need. >> Incredible. Incredible. It's uh it's a shame maybe that you guys weren't constantly in friendship, you know, in touch and that kind of thing. That would have been even more fantastic. >> [laughter] >> She'd come up and I'd run into Hillary different things for book signing. She was in town when they named >> her the park down on the south side. >> Mh. >> And uh she had this wonderful classmate friend who continued with her through her administration through all that named Betsy Johnson. And uh you know Betsy would always be there and there'd always be oh hello Gary and things but it's like now wow does she really remember who I am or you know because the class was like 1,200 kids >> and uh but you know it was always I felt really good about that. >> That's beautiful. Wow. [laughter] So, but coming, you know, of age a little bit for you, uh, the 1960s, um, offered you a wonderful opportunity to find yourself. Uh, you went to LA, lived a different lifestyle in Los Angeles. >> Oh, yeah. [laughter] >> Found yourself there. But tell us tell us more about that and your I guess you flirted with show business. Well, it wasn't show business as much. I think it was porn, but who know? [laughter] >> That was never my That was never my cup of tea. I was always too fussy. [laughter] >> What do you mean? >> I'd always do it for love, not for money. >> Oh, that's noble. Okay. Well, >> I'd never make it as a hooker, you know. But uh yeah, I during my sophomore year, I was feeling, you know, urges that I didn't really understand. I kind of did, but you don't face it and everything. >> It was a spring afternoon and I was feeling, you know, butterflies flying around and, you know, something drew me to I got to get out of here. You know, I was sitting in class. M >> so I actually I had some money saved from working my high school job and booked a flight to LA thinking we had gone on a family vacation the year before and I was always amazed at the men walking around in their white Levis >> showing you know showing basically their religion through their pants >> and uh so I thought well that'd be the perfect spot to do And I also had was had seen uh various magazines that were being sold at the news stands >> such as >> Modern Mail and you know the posing strap echup magazines, you know, >> okay, >> and little did I know that I would meet one of the big, you know, producers of those, Chuck Reno from Chris Studios, and he had a couple, he had Mars magazine, which, you know, at the time But what were you >> what were you learning about the whole lifestyle in LA and in the 60s? How >> well when I flew out there, I didn't know what I was doing, where I was going, and [clears throat] uh ended up finding my way uh to actually a very nice roommate who kind of took me under his wing. And uh you know, I was underage. I was 17 at the time. >> Wow. >> And a thing, weren't you? Yeah, >> I was just a baby [laughter] and uh we had an apartment. Him, he had a roommate was very LA Hollywood. So I did learn how to put powder on my Levis to show my basket a little bigger and it looked like it was worn denim instead of, you know, tal. >> Wow. >> Which is kind of a makeup thing to put on your pants to when you're working the streets in LA. >> Gosh, I've never heard of that. Yep. And uh but the other Brad who is the main roommate was a uh graphic designer. So I learned some stuff from him >> and uh the other roommate I don't even think I can remember his name anymore. The other one uh wanted to get involved with the Hollywood thing. So, we were a couple blocks away from um a restaurant on Sunset Boulevard. >> Okay. >> We get a phone call, you know, saying, "Oh, Henry Wilson is here at the restaurant. He's got an entourage of boys." Henry Wilson was the talent agent uh behind Chav Hunter and Rock Hudson. >> Oh, no kidding. always known as one of the open um >> Jim Parsons played him in >> the movie Hollywood that he did. Okay. >> Ryan um Ryan, what's his name? The big television movie producer. Ryan Reynolds. Um >> I don't know off hand. I don't know. >> Netflix thing called Hollywood. >> Okay. >> That showed Henry Wilson and how he kind of founded everybody. [snorts] >> Go over there. No. Yeah. we'd like to put you you get you a job and we'll discover you here and there and everything else. Well, uh it didn't work because I there was a a hooker street walker that I I'd seen on the street when I was out cruising. I was kind of infatuated with and that particular night I went down to Hollywood Boulevard and who did I run into but this guy we actually were going to go back to his place. It was kind of a slow day on the street. Wow. Okay. >> Oh, I lucked out now. Soon as we started walking, who pulls up but the vice cops and took me in as an underage transate. So there went my future love life with the hooker and [clears throat] then I was shipped back to Chicago, you know, spending the night in jail >> with, you know, bologoney sandwiches and everything else. But every turn in life you you know is a mark on your life and how it changes from one to another. So you know it worked out. It was an experience and I came back and just that trip to LA I think helped me ease my coming out and accepting of myself tremendously. >> How so? >> Just by opening my eyes to think that you know I'm really kind of a shy introvert. you know, I I you know, I am >> that's >> and uh it helped me open my eyes to what's going on in the world. You know, coming from Chicago I consider as the world's largest small town. So coming from a small town, Chicago to LA, you know, really opened my eyes and see and there's crazy people out there. LA is still very crazy and uh >> yeah, >> it opened my eyes to that and I kind of liked that a little bit. It took me a while before I went back because I also like to go to New York >> coming out and I just I I've always enjoyed the search, you know, play the cruising game and you know, I found that those two cities were very good to do that in. So, I have to ask the cruising game, how was it different in the 60s versus a little later on? >> Well, in Chicago when I first, you know, got back from California, >> uh, I was too young to go to a bar. >> So, there was a restaurant on Diversity called Hollywood, open 24 hours, you know, sandwich shop, you know, Greek sandwich shop, which are prevalent in Chicago. Yeah, sounds good. >> And uh they uh we'd hang out there and they were you you have your favorite waitresses and they kind of let you sit there for a price of a cup of coffee, you know, and it was a way of meeting people, other underage kids and you go out and you you know and cruise the streets because you couldn't go any place else. So I would do that. I met my first partner on Diversity Avenue, you know, cruising around, a student from Northwestern. He was in the same boat I was, you know, couldn't get into the bars and >> so you meet on the street and that's kind of how I got started playing the cruising game and we were together for a long time until he finally decided he was going to move to San Francisco and join a commute. Okay. >> I go, you know, Richard, I love you, but I'm not the commune kind of a guy. So, he moved and we kept in touch all the time until his death two years ago. >> Oh my gosh. Wow. Wow. >> Yeah. >> Incredible. Now, did how long did he stay in the commune? >> How long did he stay in the com? Well, the commune, it's was an interest. I learned something. Again, everything's like a learning experience. communes would um each had their own way of offering something to the community. Some would go into printing, some would go into this, some would they got into uh food distribution and they would go out to the markets, bring food in and then distribute amongst the communes. Well, then as the 70s went into the 80s, it changed to an actual business. >> Oh, okay. and it was no longer a communal type thing. It was a business like everything else. And that kind of destroys that feeling. So, uh, they kind of I don't I don't even know if they have communes in San Francisco. I'm sure they must, but >> I don't know. But yeah, >> but you were into the maintenance business. >> Had his own company, you know, maintenance wise. that we always kept very close. >> Yeah. I mean, the I think the communes you're referring to were more weren't they like more the hate asberry and >> Yeah. And all of that' be 13 hippies, you know, in a house and couple of women with, you know, that would have children and >> Yeah. >> They'd have their pot farm in the back and some good [ __ ] too. I must admit. >> I'm sorry. What? >> They produce some good [ __ ] too. >> [laughter] >> Oh my wild and I'd stay with them and it was like, okay, I'm glad I didn't move out here. I don't know if I could deal with all this. >> Wild. Wild. But you said also when you went back to Chicago um in whatever point that was, you uh found like a lot of changes like liberalism and uh the there was also the 1968 Democratic convention um protests against the police and you were even hit by a tear gas container. Now tell us about that. what was going on with with the protests and and the violence. >> Well, when I came back from California, I did meet Richard and being a student, you know, kind of gave me that, you know, uh vibe of, you know, young kid, young minds, you know, we were, you know, same age. And I loved he went to Northwestern and I loved the campus up there. It was really great. And uh he was really good for my head because he was uh a writer and he worked for eventually worked for Northwestern University Press. >> Cool. >> And uh he really opened up my mind to much more liberal thinking than I had been exposed to previously. And uh I have always thought of him as being you know probably somebody who gave me a certain angle on my thinking which I was always appreciative of. So when it came to uh the big hype in Chicago uh during the 1968 convention, Richard J. Dailyy, you know, the old man uh would he closed all the gay bars, you know, cleaning up, you know, the the town for all the delegates and the press coming into the city. >> Yeah. Uh and you know he actually it was at the convention was at the old um meatacking house down amphitheater down on the southwest side in Bridgeport. So they built a their route from the Michigan Avenue hotels down to you know Bridgeport were lined with like theater facades. >> So you didn't see all the torn down buildings behind it >> and all the you know crap of the city. So it was like an artificial >> thing you know. >> No. And it kind of angered the people and then all the the yippies which were the magnificent seven or the you Chicago 7, however you want to describe them, you know, kind of came in and they were going to, you know, the threatening of we're going to put acid in your water supply and everyone's going to be high. >> My gosh, >> there's certain parts of Lincoln Park that are free speech areas. You didn't need permits to gather. uh one of which was um the park at Lel and Diversity Lel and Clark which you could gather there and um one evening when the um convention was going on it's just starting actually there was a huge gathering of people in the park uh you know that were going to be part of the Yippi movement that was going to demonstrate against the convention. >> Yeah. [clears throat] I was out cruising. [laughter] I saw a couple of buses going by filled with riot police. Cruising wasn't really good that night. So, >> I go and see what's going on down there. So I made my way down to Lincoln Park in Lasal Street in Don Clark Street and witnessed it was there's a bar across the way from that called the inner circle and you get down there and there's this party or this event going on in the park and then people like uh Abby Hoffman and Alan Ginsburg were >> wow cross the street and go have a cocktail and then they go back to the demonstrations again. It was kind of a unique thing to see. >> Wild. >> And then all of a sudden at 11:00 when they closed the park, >> you see uh police come in and started shooting tear gas, shut started, you know, taking cameras, pulling film out, hitting people with billy clubs. >> There wasn't anything really going on, you know. why is this, you know, it was just such a terrible thing to witness. So that got me involved with every I was working downtown. Every night after work, there'd be a demonstration of one kind to another >> until the big one down in front of the Hilton where they had u a big counter demonstration across the street from the Hilton and then Dick Gregory comes by and everybody come down to my place and we'll have a barbecue. >> Ah, >> and so we followed him down. Of course, the route was to go by the international amphitheater. >> Okay. Well, I got down to 18th Street and I was kind of far back in the crowd go marching and before I knew it, I was up against jeeps with barb wire things going against us to push us back. >> Uh oh, how did I get up front? Because people would dissipate from the front of the line. [clears throat] >> All of a sudden, I heard what I thought was a tin can. Well, it was a tin can. Uh, hit my boot and exploded and I was gassed and and uh we were taking somebody who lived in one of the highrises right there. I took some people up that were overcome by gas and >> wow >> I started flushing our eyes and I thought this is really amazing how people that don't even know each other helping each other. >> Yeah. your free speech, you know, that, you know, sort of reminds me of what's going on in Chicago now with the tear gas and the, you know, the anti you free speech movement >> that's going on in this city now. >> No. Um, >> and >> I'm sorry. Go ahead. >> So, you know, I always kept those boots and I thought it was pretty amazing that, you know, it was another experience. >> Yeah. Just recently, two years ago, I was invited to be part of a display at the Chicago History Museum called Designing for uh Design Design for Change. Designing for Change. >> I have I have questions galore about that one. So, >> should I hold that story then or? >> Yes, please. Because it's I have Wait till I get there. I I think you'll I think you'll find it entertaining. >> Okay. >> So, it's okay. But, um, you know, I guess going whatever was going on in Chicago sounds a little bit tame compared to what might have been going on elsewhere. What What do you think of that? >> I thought we Chicago being the world's largest small town again kind of does things that not, you know, they they think about a little bit more. you know, we're conservative somewhat, but you know, don't mess with, you know, the city with big shoulders, you know, because we'll fight back. Don't push us into a corner because we'll fight to get out of that corner. >> Yeah. >> And uh the 68 convention helped to radicalize me to more progressive politics. >> Tell me more about that. Well, in 1968, you know, we had the death of Judy Garland, which, you know, and different things and that went into 69. >> Yeah. >> Then you had the Stonewall. >> Yeah. that kind of came up and uh after 68 and seeing how change needs to be done on you know you in order to create change you have to be on the front lines to do it >> you know and do that sort of thing. So, uh, Stonewall started and Richard and I again were at home and we started getting, um, phone calls from a friend of Richard who used to work with at Northwestern and he then living in New York. >> Yeah. >> And, uh, he said, "You won't believe what's going on here tonight." Kind of like what? You know, this is before in tune is to this riot at a bar called the Stonewall. Yes. >> Which I had already been to because we go to New York and you know you see you go to a gay bar that had dancing, you know. >> Yeah. And it was always kind of unusual because in order to get to the dance floor, which was also illegal in in New York as well as Chicago, >> that uh you had to go through the men's room, go in one door where the bar was and then out the other door where the dance floor was. >> And I thought, well, this is strange, you know, but that was what the stone wall was. And the police would raid it regularly. It was a considered to be a mop bar owned by the syndicate and charging outrageous you know cover charges like >> dollar or two now [laughter] >> imagine >> and for the you know the right to dance together and Chicago started going through the same thing. So uh we started uh after the Stonewall rebellion, Northwestern University of Chicago and the University of Illinois started their own college campus groups for gay liberation in Chicago. >> Okay. Yeah. >> And that's kind of how that started. >> So let's Yeah. Let's come back. I want to I want to I want to look at that. But, you know, I it's interesting you you bring up Stonewall because a lot of people have spoken with me about Stonewall, you know, whether they were there or just they were with other people, whatever. For example, Marge Summit talked a lot about her wife Sachi Hyatt, uh, who was actually given a commemorative medal for being a part of the Stonewall riot. And Roger Goodman told me that he well he actually showed me a leather jacket that he had that still had blood stains on it from being attacked and blunged and whatever else. It apparently was a much bigger event I think than a lot of people understand. >> Well, we were fighting back. It lasted for four days. >> Yeah. >> That entire weekend. And >> you know, uh, eventually the police were locked in the bar and the gays were outside, you know, throwing Molotov cocktails and overturning police cars. And it was like, >> imagine, >> we had enough. And the pe people in an unstantiated rumor said that they had the community was already in mourning for Judy Garland. She had passed away like a week before. And that's what really got them fired up. Oh yeah, we don't know how true that was, but it's a good story. >> Doesn't hurt anything. Yeah. >> Yeah. And uh they just had enough. They were going to fight back because we were all There were other demonstrations in LA and uh various cities in, you know, >> but people would fight back, you know, from refusal to be served in a restaurant. this Chicago's gay liberation group after Stonewall. We started boycotting bars and picking nubs because it was illegal. Well, it wasn't per se illegal for just dancing between two people. It was considered lewdidious behavior. That's what they would bust you off. But the definition of what lewd behavior was >> was so vague >> that you know and then previous to that there'd be um raids out of a place in the suburbs called Louis Gauges and >> sorry once again I'm sorry what >> Gaes with a bar out in the suburbs. >> Okay. And uh they raided that bar and the newspapers printed their names before any court dealing but they printed their names, their occupation, uh their addresses. Uh people were committing suicide. >> You know, they lost everything they had. They were, you know, without any legal recourse. again much like it is today with people you know that are being you know US citizens are being arrested because their skin is brown. >> Yeah. >> You know it's kind of the same thing >> and uh so you you get more angry in how to change things and that's kind of what bound us together with the gay liberation groups and u >> but tell me more about the gay liberation front. Well, it was a bunch of radical hippies at the time. And so for me, especially on a university campus where a lot of it stemmed from it, uh, you know, we had all kinds of different, you know, from extreme left to quasi right and central and ideas. And it again I liked it because it introduced me to people and of different beliefs and it broadened my you know horizons as far as you know political and progressive politics and uh you know some things I kind of agreed with but being brought up as a conservative you know I you hear the word communism and you know uh look what the new mayor of New York is dealing with being a democratic socialist you People don't understand what that means. >> And they get afraid of it. >> Yeah. >> The whole shell is being cracked open and they're being exposed to it. >> But is there any one or two things you can specifically point to that say this is what I learned from this gay liberation found great gay liberation movement. And is it I mean something that really defined your new reality? Well, it just, you know, you have to have your mindset on what is right and what is wrong. It's the same, you know, truth is everywhere. You, you know, you want to be on the right side of history. >> And uh so you you have to I always had people even back in those days, good friends of mine, that I always what do you think of this issue or what do you think of that issue? and I try to find out what people's thoughts were so I could then develop my own thoughts about something and go forward like that. Um, a lot of times the demonstrations, uh, early demonstrations, everybody was really angry and I'm not really an angry person and of course I was brought up, you know, being a white male which gives me a little bit of, you know, different look on things. Yes. >> I was always think why are you so you know mad that you know let's do pride. So the uh first anniversary of Stonewall >> was a march um in Chicago. You don't need there is a park called Lighthouse Square >> and uh it was donated to the city for the that's Washington Square Park is the actual >> Okay. Okay. but nicknamed it as Bug House Square. And it was donated to the city many years ago as one of the first parks in the city. And they allowed for free speech because people down there would be able to get their soap boxes out. >> Huh. >> Set them up and, you know, speak to whatever they wanted to speak to. And they didn't. they, you know, so when we decided we were going to celebrate the anniversary, uh, we didn't know anything about, you know, going down for a permit. >> Oh, we're gonna come to still more. I'm not letting you off the hook very easy on some of this stuff, I'll tell you. [laughter] >> Direction do you want me to go in now? >> Uh, Chicago Gay Alliance, gay sensibility. >> That's where this That's where this starts. >> Okay. Okay. >> So, uh it was you go down and you you have no more conservative, but >> we went and did this march and I still consider that a march >> and not to become a parade until you know the name Pride was attached to it. And uh we gathered at the bug house square >> and we were going to uh have a rally there to commemorate the Stonewall first anniversary. This was you know in June of you know 1970. >> Okay. And uh so we gathered there and had speeches and ended up somebody said it was you know very loose people would do their own thing a lot >> so it went it wasn't planned to be a parade but of course somebody said let's go down to the you know the civic center >> became a parade and in the background we did it on a Saturday because if we're going to march Uh, we wanted exposure because back in those days, Michigan Avenue was quite quiet. >> So, we thought if we did it on Saturday, we get the shoppers and everything and expose them to some, you know, revolutionary facts as we were referred to. >> Wow. Now, that's heavy. And my favorite images is us, you know, parading down Michigan Avenue and then over to Randolph Street and at the old United Artist Theater, Myra Breenidge was playing. So there's a picture of the radicals with their signs out with Myra Wells says you Myra Breenidge and that's it. Little did we all know that trans, you know, people were going to be a political issue. >> Yeah. at that point. >> So then we marched down to the civic center. The Picasso was already there. So we did our obligatory dance around the Picasso as hippies do. And uh it was a great event. >> They danced around the Picasso. >> Yeah. Big circle dance around the Picasso. >> Oh. Was there What's the significance of that? >> It's just something to do. Hippies love. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something in that. >> No. And just hippies love to dance. You always see the boo, you know, I think Woodstock started that. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. But you I mean there was a lot going on there. I mean, you you've mentioned in numerous newsletters and and because that was the way that people communicated then. And but you even said there there was the very first LGBTQ phone helpline. >> Well, that was later on because at the time >> I was always kind of you couldn't get news. You couldn't get it on >> TV. You couldn't get it on the radio. But there was a more conservative group called Mattishing Midwest >> which is already in existence >> on a national level. >> And uh there'd be they do a kind of a booklet newsletter thing. And by this time I was going to the bars and I'd always make sure that on top of their cigarette machine I would pick up my copy of the Madashi Midwest newsletter. >> Okay. >> Gave things happening but help lines if you were busted who you should referral lines and that type of thing. Okay. So Matashim was, you know, that was their service to the community and the gay liberation groups. >> Got it. >> A little too radical for those folks. Uh, you know, earlier [laughter] mattishing with people that were running it out of the east coast wanted everyone to go to demonstrations and suit and tie if you're a woman and go shirts and that. So they wanted that look they were being on how they were perceived by the general public. They just didn't care. They just looked fabulous with their fringe and their hair up and, you know, flowers and those but then eventually they kind of came together. >> Wild. Now, um >> then dancing became a big issue where we'd go down and uh there was a place called Rush Street just south of Chicago >> called the Normandy >> and it was a good size bar, but it was just a bar in the middle of the room, but they had room. There's, you know, nothing to do but sit there and, you know, look at people, you know, but they were, it was conducive to dancing. So, we picked that bar >> until they finally um agreed to it. And it was because the vice commander of the 42nd precinct or 22nd precinct which was that precinct down there supposedly said to the owners which were the mob folks I don't care what you have to do but get these [ __ ] off the street. So they did open up to uh you know dancing because the law was so vague that they look the other way >> legal. So we didn't have to go through legal changes. They just had to look at it not as glued behavior but as just two people dancing together. And from then on we had dancing in the city. So >> wow. >> First picket that actually did something. if you're going out and having a good time celebrating something, it's good to dance with people, you know, >> it's a good time. So then again, that's that spread throughout the city and and we could now dance and that's a little bit of freedom that we won and then we started going into other things down the line. Well, now I would like to talk about the Pride parade because something interesting uh came up as I was preparing for this. Now, I know when we spoke, you told me you signed the first Pride parade permit. Yes. >> For the city of Chicago. >> For city of Chicago. Okay. >> That wasn't under gay liberation. That was a year a That was a year after the Stonewall anniversary. >> Uh okay. So slightly later. >> Uh so was what year would that have been like 1970? Is that I think >> 1970 was the first march that started in Bug House. >> Okay. >> And that was that's why I consider it a march. But then uh because because of political differences with gay liberation, some of the uh nonuniversity folks thought that they wanted to work more within the system than outside the system. And uh so they split off from the gay liberation front and started their own organization called the Chicago Gay Alliance. >> Okay. Oh, I see. I see. too far after that. And then things you want to do. Okay, what should we do? Well, let's go get a permit for the 1971 march. So, I was president of the, you know, again, we had titles, which gay liberation didn't, you know, they weren't that structured, but we were a little more structured. And uh I went downtown to get a permit and never having done this before and not being familiar at all with that process at the time. We had to go down to >> streets and sanitation >> to get a permit issued and we had no idea of what to do. So basically and we wanted because of again the anger versus pride. I always personally thought pride was a way of introducing folks. You know you don't want to be brought into a lifestyle being angry. >> You want to be proud with yourself. >> Yeah. >> So we named it, you know, the pride parade. >> Okay. down and did it and went down and I asked for everything I could think of from, you know, bands and animal act and floats and I even put a flea circus on the, you know, >> kill myself for not having that permit right now, you know, a copy of it. But I've had the city search for it and they since turned into into the special events office and purged all the paperwork from the earlier years. But we got our first permit. Little did we realize that they're going to make it hard for us. So >> we didn't get the whole street. They still had cars parked on the streets. We started in an assembly area at Belmont Rocks because it was a big open area [clears throat] and we didn't know again how many floats or how many people or anything else. As it turned out, we gathered about 2,000 people that second year for the first Pride parade. >> Oh, okay. Okay. and marched, you know, but we had northbound traffic we were dealing with and we went from there down to the Lincoln Park where the Yippies the year before gathering at Lel and Clark Street. >> It was a fairly long parade, but >> yeah, >> we had a couple of floats. Uh, a lot of people, as I say, we went from 150 to, you know, 2,000 and we started getting the word out. Uh we had a really good um the start of the LGBT press in Chicago. Uh the Chicago Gay Alliance newsletter was actually edited by a man by the name of Frank Robinson who was working for Playboy as the Playboy advisor which we thought was kind of ironic. He was quite good about >> he later moved to San Francisco became one of Harvey Mil's writers. He was actually in the movie Milk that was produced you know on film. >> Oh my gosh. Wow. >> He made himself marvelous man. He also wrote the towering inferno. >> No kidding. >> Wow. >> So it was like he was quite something. But he helped do this. He really classed up our newsletter a lot and printing and this is, you know, that's a good way of communicating because we didn't have all these things. We'd have, you know, little newsletters of a newspaper and then from the gay lions newsletter, you know, newspaper to Chicago gay crusader to gay life >> to Windy City Times and it kept growing and growing and growing and growing. Another thing, Chicago Gay Alliance, >> but >> one of our officers was living on Lasal Street and Elm and uh they were walking their dog and the dog there was one of those I think the city does it on purpose. They don't have streets run through because you kept the Gold Coast on one side and the ghetto on the other. >> Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. to go from one to the other. So his dog Jane kind of got loose and ran back to what towards Well Street and Jerry went to find him and or her and saw this house for rent. It was a little two-story house and uh for rent and we that'd be kind of interesting because we were all meeting in living rooms and things and this we talk about why don't we open up a community center. >> Okay. Okay. So it was the Chicago Gay Alliance uh you know community center which opened in 19 late later in 1971 and we had room for meetings upstairs in the would have been the attic. We had a bedroom that we turned into a library. We had a phone line. We had a kitchen so we could fix potluck dinners and >> things and it was kind of you know we staffed it and you know we had a lot of runaways and people that are thrown out of their apartment. >> Wow. >> Wow. was kind of uh you see what was out there and I'm I'm fairly lucky even though my you know folks and my family were more on the conservative side at least they didn't throw me out of the house which was very common >> back in those days. >> Yeah. So we take the people in and then we thought well we'll do a parade and we got the permit for the parade and we did that and we we called it the pride march but again we learned our lesson. It wasn't until like four or five years later that uh they actually stopped parking cars along the route. >> Oh wow. Okay. >> Stopping traffic along the route. >> Yeah. And um the first march which um I think [clears throat] is another first for Chicago. We did it on Saturday and if you Google it live, you come up with uh the congressional you come up if you Google first march male pride march the library of congress uh says that it was done they were done in New York, LA and Chicago >> and San Fran according to this >> uh yeah San Fran did their own but they were all done because the they celebrated on Sunday. >> Yeah. >> We wanted to celebrate >> Saturday >> that a crowd. So we started on Saturday which made us the first Pride march in the world. >> And then and I'm sorry. So I want to get I want to make sure I'm understanding. So this would would have been about 1971. Is that right? >> June 27th, 1971. >> Okay. Okay. That explains >> 1970. I'm sorry. >> I'm sorry. Once again, sorry. 1970 was the first march. That was the march that went from Bugout Square down to the civic center >> which is okay. So there's two different marches is what you're discussing. >> And then the second one was the first permitted march in Chicago. >> Got it. Okay. See that explains. >> See I was reading u I don't know if you can read this. I was read you can't really read it. It's the first gay parade June 28th, 1970 by Jerry Lee. And she apparently was the wife of the woman on the horseback, but you can't you really can't see it, can you? But >> yeah, but anyway, and she discusses that in her book. And she said that um I can find it right here. the uh Los Angeles was the only one of the cities with a parade permit classifying it as the first gay parade. But that's 1970, >> right? >> Not you were too, right? >> Yeah. And that's what sort of threw me. I wanted to make sure >> it's how you differentiate, you know, parade permits and that's why I always distinguish it between the first march >> and the first parade in Chicago. Yeah. And that that explains it >> how you identify it because the marches were much more political. >> Yeah. >> And sort of like the two marches in New York. You have you have the regular cons, you know, commercial parade and then you have the oldfashioned >> parade, you know. >> Yeah. >> In New York. So that's kind of what it was. >> I'm I'm glad you've explained that because it was the moment I read that I thought, "Oh, no, no, that's not right." that I actually thought that >> as a kid as a you know growing up in the gay life in Chicago it always bothered me that Chicago being a Midwest town we were always ignored. There was always a there was an old cover of New York magazine where it showed the two coasts were east coast and the west coast with nothing but prairie in between. It was a cartoon. >> Yes. >> And I didn't like that. I thought because we do again after 61 uh with you know getting rid of the sodomy laws you know kind of that early that we get ignored. So it always bothered me that they're an advocate they would always they'd never pick up any kind of news from Chicago. Oh yeah, LA. Because they were printed in LA. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So we were always ignored. So this started and then just this past uh year we had a um I'm working with uh Mike Quigley who is our representative from Chicago Congress and his um gay leazison who is Yonyi Piser and we're going to try to get a nondetermined LGBT BTQ plaque commemorating the first Pride march >> that originated in Bugout House Square. >> Okay. not not dropping any of the letters, but to actually So, we had our first >> 55th anniversary of that march >> uh last year, and we're going to continue until we can get it into law with the, you know, because now they're even the uh the park across the street from uh the Stonewall has been dropped. The trans and by I think have been dropped from that. you know, >> and it's like it pisses me off. >> Yeah, that >> so we're trying to do it right and get it so it is actually identified as a LGBTQ, you know, event and have a plaque there commemorating that date. >> I'm I'm very grateful to better understand that because honestly that that was my thought when I read that. No, no, no. That's wrong. That's wrong. That's what I thought. >> Well, even the Library of Congress lists it wrong. So changing if once something on the internet is wrong, it takes forever to >> Yeah. Yeah. >> There's a news I don't know if you're familiar with, but Gay USA out of New York. >> I'm familiar, but that's about it. Yeah. >> I I get it from some news stories, but again, we're kind of ignored here in the Midwest. Andre Hum and Anne Hathaway, you know, >> they are good about if I bug them enough to say, "No, no, no, that's incorrect." You know, >> and they they will retract what they say if it's wrong. So, that's another So, I keep my eye on, you know, media like that. >> Good idea. the Library of Congress once we get the monument into Bug House Square. But when you were um when we prepared for this, you told me that um of course community is always changing and evolving and all that, but that as you saw it earlier, the community was more inclusive and now more political and also that it was more underground and sexual earlier on which you preferred. Yeah, >> I I I again because I like to cruise and I you know I when I started working in the bars it was kind of hard for me to you don't get you know mix those things too much. >> Yeah. >> I would love to go to New York or if I feel like I need to really relax I would go to New York or LA or San Francisco in which to do it. But um politically it I like the freedom of being underground because it didn't seem like we were under the pressure. You know, two people could go up and shake hands and before you know it, they're on their way home somewhere. And I think sex is a good thing. And I don't think we should be, you know, hiding the fact that we're gay and we're sexual. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's a whole another issue. Yeah. you refer to our community as the gay minor, you know, sexual minority groups. >> Yeah. >> Because you have so many just in the LGBTQ, you know, before, you know, you'd have a whole alphabet of letters and then >> the controversy of what does Q stand for? What does this stand for? What does >> Yeah. >> So, I'm still kind of a person that likes to use the term gay. >> And there's still people out there that are men, women, and everything else. Mhm. >> be proper. You know, again, I I don't like being that proper all the time, but sometimes you have to be. [laughter] >> I just, you know. >> Well, yeah. You do what you have to do, you know. >> Yeah. >> But also, and you've alluded to this slightly earlier, Chuck Renow uh became a good friend to you. And but I'm going to ask you for the benefit of the viewing audience, whoever may see this, would you please tell a little bit about who Chuck Renslo was? >> Chuck Renslo was considered as the gay don in the gay, you know, mafia of Chicago. He um he was uh in the sex business and you know on different levels. Uh he owned a photo he was a photographer. His partner uh Damore Judas better known as the artisten. >> Yes. Uh, you know, you go into some of his clubs like the Gold Coast and you'd see these cartoonish huge cartoonish hunky males and then eventually it turned into some females too on the walls and you know some would show baskets down to their knee. There's one actually at the leather archives which has a little mark on it. And remember earlier I said that's where I picked up my gay my Madison newsletter off the cigarette machine. >> Well, because of the size of the basket on the this art whenever the police would come in, they'd move the cigarette machine in front of the the artwork to cover that because >> they didn't want to be busted for it. >> He also was a filmmaker. He got a uh award for a um from film festival for a film that he made called the blue rose which was about two men. It was a posing strap epic and quite good actually. >> I've never seen it. >> If you ever get a chance I think they have copies of it at the archives next time you're in town. >> Cool. >> It's amazing. But he uh opened up Man's Country. He was trying to get into politics at a time when gay men don't, you know, weren't opened, you know, weren't >> popular to get into politics. But he backed the right thing. I originally met him because my back when I was still searching for [clears throat] myself, my sister dated some guys and they were muscle builders and she brought them home one night and oh, let's take some pictures. they were going out somewhere and all of a sudden they started doing the muscleman poses like, "Oh, this is interesting." And then they told me they were going to a gym down on I think it was called Perry's gym down on Van Beern downtown. So there was one time I was going downtown looking for whatever and oh there's Perry's gym. So I go up there and it was you get a lot of his models for his magazines. Uh yeah, >> studios. >> Physique magazine he had. Yeah, >> exactly. And uh but then he opened up the Gold Coast, he opened up Center Stage, he opened up oh a slew of other bars and but his forte was actually the all the leather bars, >> leather, denim, and fetish bars, which was the Gold Coast was major, you know, bar in the world. It was iconic. Yeah. >> But you ended up being the manager there. >> I Well, when my partner, Richard, moved to San Francisco to join the commune, I had, you know, all our furniture. He didn't want any furniture. He didn't want. So, here I had a, you know, big apartment full of furniture and I needed some money to get a apartment that would, you know, basically take care of some of that at least. So, and then working with Gay Alliance and Gay, you know, gay liberation front. If we ever needed advertising, you know, funds to do a newsletter, first person you go to was Chuck because you knew he'd take an ad out. >> Yeah. >> And, you know, so I got to know him. Uh, and Richard and I moved on Belden uh after our first apartment. And about two weeks later, the goal coast moved to Lincoln Avenue at the time for a short brief period. Well, how handy, you know, the bar was just down the street. So, we got to know like just no, let's go for a drink, you know, and walked down there and got to know Chuck very well. >> And when Richard moved, I said, you know, Chuck, do you have any room for I had never tended bar before in my life and uh he said, yeah, I can. You know, you start Saturday. Well, it's supposed to be like Friday and Saturday and before you knew it, I was working both downtown at my other job and uh I was working eventually four or five days at the G Coast because oh, we need we need somebody extra and it lasted for about six months and I was, >> you know, working downtown, coming home, taking a little disco nap, going to work at the G Coast, and then coming back, taking another little disco nap, and then going to exhausting. Yeah. >> I could do it, you know, and we became close friends. So, I quit the downtown job and uh he eventually he was looking for someone to manage the bar and he chose me. He said, "Would you like to manage it?" And I said, "Yeah, I can do that." So, we instituted some things. We had a really good afternoon afternoon and evening some days for film night we'd bring in film >> reason you know good excuse to turn off the lights and let people each other. >> I see. >> And we became quite popular. Uh his politics I learned an awful lot from because he was very progressive and he was very gay. He really had a great mind on how this would all fit in together. And he had powerful, you know, ideas. He started a thing literally, he didn't celebrate his birthday, but he started the white parties. His family said, "Oh, let's celebrate your birthday." So, they had some really great white parties. The one I remember the most is he actually took uh the ballroom at Navy Pier and did this huge white party. Of course, Navy Pier, everyone dressed up in white, which was sailor uniforms. So, >> okay. Yeah. >> It was it was quite the event and that his white parties were done in all kinds of different locations and uh it became and his idea was that is he wanted to show numbers of how he could turn the you know the politics you know get people out. >> See okay >> idea. Uh he was instrumental in doing the orange ball which was at um Madina Temple which is now the the Harris Casino >> and uh Anita Bryant was singing and >> oh my >> the group came out completely surrounded uh in a march around the you know got showed Anita Bryant What? >> You mean they marched around her? Is that what you're saying? >> Well, around the building. >> Oh. Oh. Oh, >> stop, you know, to stop her. >> Oh, okay. >> Singing concert. >> Did Did she stop? What? >> I I I don't remember. I just know that the crowds were low and they didn't want to pass this. There was a massive crowd outside. >> Oh, okay. and uh that it was a way of getting us probably the biggest LGBT um you know demonstration I've ever seen at that time. >> Wow. Wow. >> Went to the first AIDS quilt display in Washington with Chuck. I went to the first March on Washington with Chuck. Um he was amazing man. Yeah. And my father died when I was young. So he was like my father figure and my gay father. >> Okay. Okay. >> We're fairly close. Yeah. >> But you also I'm going to just throw this in because it I think we need to cover it. Was the Mr. Gold Coast contest. you created that or produced that or >> Well, at the time there was um Gay Chicago was doing an awards show [clears throat] >> and uh they would mean advertise you know magazine that advertised all the they would get all the different bars to put up a can candidate to go to then the Mr. Windy City contest. Okay. >> So you have Mr. Gold Coast or Mr. Batan or Mr. or whatever. Then all those folks would then go to the next level which was the Mr. Windy City contest. >> Got it. >> The king of Chicago at the time. >> Yes. >> So we would do the um Mr. Gold Coast contest and you could turn the bar into the pool table was a stage. It had a little walkway over to the bar and then people could walk around the bar. So it was kind of fun and it was very popular. >> Okay. I love it. >> And then that kind of led into uh Mr. Velos went to international Mr. Leather. >> Dom his partner and Chuck decided well we could do something even bigger than this with the leather community. And uh they did the first one at the what's now the Intercontinental Hotel on Michigan Avenue, but I can't remember what it was just before that before they changed the name. That was who hosted the first uh in the ballroom, the first international Mr. Weather. >> Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's revisit let's revisit that some more. Uh I don't have the privilege very often of meeting people that have actually attended the first IML. It it's quite something for me. Anyway, uh but you mentioned u you weren't you the the what do you call the light operator? >> Well, by this time I had moved to his bath house, which is man's country. >> Oh, I see. I see. I was always more of a bath house person, you know, and I I liked it for when I go to me and my partner at the time would, you know, kind of go and work as a team, you know, kind of thing. >> Okay. >> And uh we would go and, you know, do that. And uh but then when I left the Gold Coast as manager, a gentleman from now living in San Francisco named Pat Bat took over management and he was very staunch, you know, leatherman. >> Okay. >> And almost overboard. I I would joke about, you know, he'd always wear boots to everything, you know, and you know, up to his knees. Whereas when I went to the Baz, I was used to walking around my bare feet a lot. So we would kind of people. I wasn't the extreme leather man that he thought I should be, I guess. So, we didn't really see eye to eye a lot on that, but he took over the first Gold Coast or IML at the hotel and you know, of course, I being part of the family. >> Yeah. >> I would I went to see the event. Well, they needed a couple of follow spot operators for the show. So I said, 'Well, Pat, I know how to operate a follow spot, you know, >> and friend of mine, you know, Sam, he can operate the other one. So that was what we did for the first IML back in 1979. >> Nine, was it? Okay. So let let's revisit that even more because there uh I don't know what you hear but you know when I was coming up in the leather community you'd hear it you'd hear the first IML depicted literally in iconic status and you know outer space and whatever else and uh there were only 12 contestants that very first year. What were your thoughts on this? You didn't think it would become big like it did? >> Well, you didn't know. It was just something new. >> We had, you know, a good crowd >> because it was something new. And the contest >> bug got everybody. They, you know, and then leather was just another draw, >> you know, and this ballroom was quite li. So it was kind of a good conflict of you know leather against this lie dah I think it might be even like beige or pink >> and it worked out well >> and you see we had a like a sign painted sign the international Mr. leather and we had plastic chain that kind of was our decor and you know that was the first one. But we were lucky enough that we had good judges uh we had a good winner and who went on to you know kind of travel and >> become a celebrity. >> Yeah. David Clauss was the first winner and uh he of course had iconic status as well because of the the nature of the business but um how well did you know him? What did you think of him as first? >> I I I respected him a lot. I wasn't really he was from out of town so he wasn't one of people you'd see all the time. >> Okay. >> And uh but he you know in hindsight he really did what he was molding what Mr. leather was going to be all about. >> Wow. >> Eventually, Drummer magazine referred to it as the Academy Awards of Leather. >> Yeah. >> And that chuckle because that was a kind of conflicting, you know, because they went and did their drummer contest and everything else. But eventually um Pat if I remember correctly moved to San Francisco and then that opened up the show to other people to produce it. So >> Okay. Yeah. Now David died maybe a year ago or so. Maybe little longer. >> Year and a half or so. >> Okay. Yeah. Uh which was a tremendous loss for everyone including his husband. How did you feel about that of his laws? >> It like any other icon, you you're sad, >> but that's that's life. >> Yeah. >> But there were enough other people that respected him and kind of carried on, you know, carried the torch, I guess you could say. >> Wild. No, some really great, you know, winners of over the years. Yeah. Who stands out for you? >> Henry Tanhavi. >> Okay. >> And because he was from uh the Netherlands. >> Yeah. >> We actually did have a a good international flavor and uh but he I've always been into since my hippie days, I've always been into long-hair folks. >> Oh, got it. >> He'll never win. But he's my favorite. And I was so happy when you he was a nice guy. He was, you know, tremendous. He was good-looking. He had this beautiful hair. And I thought, "Wow, I picked a winner." [laughter] >> Well, very nice. So you get, you know, you kind of think over the time I'm not usually right when I came, but eventually became, we'd always sit around the 50 to 55 numbers >> when I came to how many contestants would be, you know, in the competition that year. >> You actually brought IML from like a one night event to at least a three night and then it even went more than that. Well, it was good history because we changed venues. Uh there was no like official hotel, you know, because everyone just kind of came in and stayed with friends. >> And it was originally done on Mother's Day weekend. >> Yeah, I did know that. >> On a Saturday night. >> Yeah. And uh eventually we ended up at what's now Park West. >> And uh you know you could hold 100 actually 750 people I think was their maximum you know size and then when you bring in 40 50 people for contestants and there's no dressing room space. If you've ever been into Park West, the back wall of the the stage, it's the back wall of the building. >> Huh. >> So, they had one little dressing room upstairs. We had to have a changing room in the kitchen off to the side. >> Uh there was in 19 what was it? 82. We had a group of cloggers come in. There had to be about 30 of those. We had a musician that was had, you know, animals, lions and tigers and bears. Oh my. >> Wow. >> And it was staging that show with [clears throat] no room and all these contestants. >> Was, you know, it was like it was like playing policemen in Time Square, you know. Okay, you all move in, you guys move out, you know. >> Wow. [laughter] you different theaters and that >> you then you also uh in I don't even remember the year but there used to be at the base of Navy Pier there was like a motel it was called the Lakeshore Motel and we ended up going into contract because we wanted to have some kind of a home base. >> Oh okay. theater wasn't there. >> But as it turned out, excuse me, >> I'm on a call at time. So, um, it was this smallalish hotel and it turned out we moved in there and it turned out that h half of the hotel was filled with a straight swingers group. >> So, you'd have the leather folks and the toga folks. >> Oh myion. [clears throat] And then eventually we moved to the Hyatt Hotel where we do everything in one building >> shows down to Hyatt Regency >> and you know uh we would have we did this one show that we combined since the hotel was so big they liked it if we sold out everything so we didn't have to you know embarrass their other guests. >> Okay. So we had um at this time I had a business partner in the name of RJ Schaffen and we >> okay >> promotional business in the community. So we got the contract for um the international gay rode not gay rodeo square dance association. >> Okay. So, we brought the cowboys in and the leather folks into the Hyatt and it was really a good combination. >> I should think [laughter] >> I know we were at the they call the big bar there which is on the second level overlooking the lobby and there was this bride and groom coming down the escalator and all of a sudden you hear all these people uproar, you know, where's your husband? You know, >> she loves >> She could have at least thrown the bouquet or something. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was a big thing. We had, you know, all these different people there and they've been at the Congress Hotel now for quite a while. >> Several years. Yeah. Yeah. Wild. Yeah. When I first began at IML, it was at the Hyatt, you know, with the double towers. >> That was that was the pinnacle. I got to tell you, that was amazing. >> Well, the ballrooms were great because they were large and could do staging there. Yeah, we didn't have to worry about dressing room space. >> Yeah. >> The other theater I really like is the Harris Theater theater and dance >> because they had huge dress >> and the size of it was perfect. >> Yeah. >> It was a good, you know, show that >> wild, you know, just all the different choice hotels over the years. But as as things happen, Chuck Renow even passed away what maybe a year or two ago, two years ago, something. >> It's probably closer to three or four. >> Okay. Well, what would you say to him today if you could? >> Uh, thank you. He was really a big influence on my life. Yeah, he was, you know, Chuck, he had his, you know, his personality quirks. And I've always been, you know, people with quirks and who are quirky were always favorite people of mine. Don't give me a boring person, you know, give me somebody excitement. We, you know, not only did I think of him as a father figure, but everybody thought of him as Daddy Chuck. Yeah, he was daddy of all time. wild. And my he was my second interview uh fireside chat interview and um I prepared everything like I normally do but I did not yet learn the concept of doing a pre-in that be that happened as a result of doing his interview >> and I ended up straying into territory he didn't want to discuss. So that I learned a valuable lesson from that interview. I'll tell you that >> he had, you know, he had a pornography bust that he did take to the Supreme Court. >> I know >> the original name of Gold Coast was Aggie's Gold Coast Lounge. >> So he could not having this charge against him, he couldn't get liquor license. >> Yeah. So he had a woman, a lesbian woman that he was friends with named Agnes Hasset who was the official owner of the bar and Aggie's Gold Coast Lounge. >> But then he finally fought that and won took it to the Supreme Court case and >> then he was able to hold the licenses under his own >> sorry what? Sorry. >> Hold the licenses under their own name. But yeah, so I learned a valuable lesson how to do a better interview because of that. And that's fine. So >> I think I knew uh his surviving partner Ron. I think I knew Ron a bit better. But >> yeah, well Ron passed away. >> Yes, I know he did. Yeah, I know. That's that's another story. If you want to talk about that, we can talk about it. But um but coming back, you at the Okay. Okay. you were at the focal point in Chicago at the time of the AIDS epidemic when that hit. Um, Chicago Gay Men's Health Project, the uh the nurse Lunt, I want you, you know, with >> Lust. Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry. Lust and the medical truck. Um, take me there. It goes back when I went from the Gold Coast to man's country. >> There was um >> you know, you had STD testing going on in this city. >> Yeah. And I don't know if they still do it or not because they haven't been turned in yet to the board of health, you know, in a long time, >> but uh they'd have epidemiologists that were trying to stem, you know, the uh spread of venerial disease in the community. >> Yeah. >> So I was at man's country and that everyone thought, well, man's country, that's a breeding ground of, you know, syphilis and gorrhea. So, I had this person come up to the door of the window looking for me because my he was an epidemiologist for the Chicago Board of Health. >> Okay. >> And okay, I'll see him. And he said, you know, said that my name was turned in and I had to, you know, I brought him back to the office and he was going to take my blood. And then we got in conversations over, you know, how things were done. And I was always leerary if my name if I ever wanted treatment, you know, for any kind of veneerial disease, >> if you went to a public health facility, you normally had to tell the doctors that treated you where to look and to, you know, point like do my throat, do my ass, do that because they had no clue as to what, you know, a gay person. >> Okay, got it. Okay. Yes, sir. >> No. >> And uh so I didn't particularly care for this guy. At one point he said, "Well, I'm going to if you don't do this now, I'm going to close this down." And all I could think of was try it. You know, go ahead and try it now. Get the hell out of here. And uh so he did, but then somebody downtown at the board of health must have been smart because about two weeks later these two guys show up. Same story. Your name's been turned in, >> but they were of a different generation. They were younger students, younger epidemiologists, and they were also easy on the eye. >> So, oh yeah, bring them in. So, they turned out to be really nice guys. and we had excellent uh communication skills. >> They were cared about the community. And from there we started doing a weekly testing program at Man's Country Baz so people can come in and just another service that we could provide. >> Yeah. >> Uh we had to get these analyzed these blood samples and smear samples. So we were able to we started a group called Chicago Gay Health Project. >> Okay. >> And we were able to gather help from the Chicago Board of Health which would actually do the testing of the things that we were you know the samples that we were getting done. And from there uh there was a drag queen named Wanda Lust at Man's Country and she was sort of our resident queen. because we had entertainment at the Baz and you could go to any bar basically see a drag show but Wanda was Wanda Los a celebrity and she was our technician she knew her music she knew she operated we had the m men's country music hall which she was was her area >> and she took care of the lighting this and that and she was magical I said Wanda want to go out if we do like a RV and go to the bars take this clinic out to the bars. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, we did the uh VD van, rented a, you know, a couple times we did it and we rented an RV and literally was paid for by I'd call out, we were very popular amongst the bars because we'd always get bar people coming to the baz after the bars closed. >> Sure. So, everybody loved us, you know, and we're going to bring a testing, you know, get VD testing. We'll pull up right in front of your bar. All we need from you is $50 to help pay for the rent and a parking space, you know, in front of the bar. >> Sure. >> No, they loved it. So, Wanda would dress up as Nurse Lust and if she came in and got tested, >> she'd go into the bar and pull people out and offer them cookies if they came in and got tested. >> Oh. very good. >> But her she was like seven feet tall in this white outfit with her red hair. You know, she was quite something. >> And you said she she duplicated that poster. I want you >> to We had a designer who did our posters for M's country. His name was Montel K. And he his business name was Mona Lisa Artworks and he drew the graphics for everything we did at Man's Country. you know, we had Sally Ran there, he did that. We had Gotham there, he did those graphics. So, he was our official graphic person. >> And uh so he did the I want you. And it's like it it was a perfect, you know, media thing. We we back in the day we were doing pretty good as far as PR with a bath house because we'd make it a variety. We'd make it in After Dark, which was another magazine that was popular nationwide. And uh we were on the you know literally Chicago's entree into the KY circuit of entertainment. Whan Flowers and Madam was another one. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Incredibly, you know, unbelievable. And uh good time, you know, he he he was always funny because this story I have on him when he'd arrive in town, he'd always stay at the baths because that was kind of his thing. Mhm. >> And uh so whenever he did sound check, he got in Wanda would set up a microphone and just a little light and then all of a sudden the treat Whan would pull out Madam and then Madam would take charge >> and do the entire >> Yeah. [laughter] >> It was It was funny. And then there was time we'd be staying at the Baz. You go down to the television lounge after the shows were over with and you look over and there'd be madam sitting in her chenille rows. [laughter] I was like, "Okay, you know, >> should have seen that coming." >> He was always He was always on. It was pretty funny. What a loss. He died of AIDS. >> Yeah. >> At a very young age. Now, uh, >> to do TV and everything, you know, >> I even remember Madam was a guest on on various uh, what do you call them? Like game shows and that. >> Oh, yeah. She was >> She had her own personality. >> Adam. Yeah. Oh, yeah. >> On Hollywood Squares >> there. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Now you you mentioned to me that leather people, leather folk are a more educated group and they took all this information regarding AIDS and HIV everything and they made it a part of the regular world. So that's really quite amazing. Well, I it's just I think leather folks turned out to be an older group of folks who were probably very well educated. A lot of doctorates and different things. And uh it wasn't just sex, but even the sex that leather folks do is a controlled thing that they really think it out first because it you're kind of expanding, you know, the idea. Whereas you get you go to, you know, just a regular bar where everyone's out there to drink and, you know, go and take somebody home and, you know, they didn't really think about it. >> They just went out and did it. probably not the best sex in the world that they had. Whereas the leather sex I maybe I'm a fan of leather sex, but I you know think that it's a more interesting brain thing. They sex with that's another sexual organ that you don't you know a lot of people don't understand exists. >> I agree. Yeah. But delicate question on all of this though is over the years you know I've spoken to a lot of people who were in the response to HIV AIDS in Chicago predominantly and an interesting top rather an interesting line kept coming up and I found it to be really fascinating. Many people have said that they suffered PTSD from taking care of people and and surviving this basically. Let's just say that they were survivors. Were you affected like that? Not really, but I always thought that there was something that protected me uh that wasn't well known that uh well, when AIDS came out, you know, I was fairly active [clears throat] and you know, being in the bath house business and the bar business, I'm surprised I'm sitting here talking to you now. you know, it's just what saved me versus, you know, the people that die. I knew a lot of couples where one of the couple would be uh HIV positive and later die, the other one continues living without a sign of AIDS. So, I don't know if there is something in the >> you your blood, you know, you build up an immune immunity to the HIV infection, but >> I I I don't know why they haven't gone farther with the you know but getting any kind of research done with AIDS was difficult because even during the the Reagan administration and you know George you know Bush old George boy >> uh they didn't mention AIDS it wasn't on the radar >> I got involved with AIDS because it was a natural from the uh STD testing at man's country >> um the executive director of >> [clears throat] >> uh the Howard Brown Clinic at the time invited us down some people and said you we were you kind of known for doing shows and events and everything and said we there's a new disease and not nothing is known about it how would you like to do a fundraiser started you know >> a new group there with Howard Brown Clinic and we started a fundraiser where we did what's called cornucopia which was a review show at Park West. >> Okay. >> And it was the first AIDS fundraiser that happened in Chicago. And then from there, my business partner R.J. Uh he was kind of a big guy and uh Elan Masonic Hospital had a ward that basically was all about AIDS people bringing in >> and so there was I'm not good with that kind of surrounding but because of the cause I got better. So I have another personality called buttons tea clown. So R.J. would dress as Santa Claus. Uh I would dress as the Christmas version of Buttons the Clown. We'd call our friends in the bar business for donations. And we go in, we get Christmas stockings >> built with, you know, shaving cream >> to candy to anything that we thought somebody in the hospital >> would need, you know, for him. And it was an easier way for me to deal with it personally >> some good. So >> and you bring bring a laugh to somebody. I think laughter is one of the best cures. Not cures but you know medications. >> Yeah. >> Feel better. >> You see Santa Claus come in and the clown. Um, you know, we did another fundraiser with Circus Vargas, which at the time was the world's largest big top circus show. Uh, because Ringling Brothers was the largest circus, but they always, you know, did their shows and auditori, you know, arenas. So, we, um, Cliff Vargas, uh, ended up from Chicago. As a matter of fact, he was manager of Louis Gauges, who was the bar that was rated years earlier where they published all the names and jobs and everything. >> Yeah. >> So, uh, and they the manager and the ring master were partners and they'd always come to the Gold Coast and, >> you know, they love, you know, the Gold Coast and I kind of like circus because they're, you know, the oldest form of show business. I'm a show And uh so they ended up giving us I put Vargas died of AIDS and it was seeing how the circus family did a memorial service under the big top for >> uh >> moving and they ended up giving us an evening u of performance that we could do whatever we wanted with the tickets. we could hold like 3,000, you know, tickets and we could distribute those amongst uh the, you know, the community based funding for AIDS and HIV, you know, awareness. They could either give the tickets to their clients, sell them for resale, whatever they wanted to do, >> and then we'd do it at the big top. Well, the one year um Jeff McCort, who was one of the publishers of Windy City Times, came up to R.J. and I after one of the big top benefits and said, "If you perform on the trapeze, I'll write a check to you for $5,000." Oh, really? >> Okay. >> So, I checked and you know, with my friends, the ring master and the manager, I said, "Is that a possibility?" And they said, "Oh, yeah. We next year we'll do it. You can come in and you know, so R.J. and I went down and got outfitted in our Tadada outfits, you know, sequin capes and, you know, bloomers and tights and we had the Chicago sheevils >> as our TADA girls. Larry McKan, our state rep, was our ambulance driver that, you know, clowns do routines. >> Yeah. actually uh performed on the high trapeze and got the check for five grand. >> You're the only person I know that's ever been on a trapeze. That's wild. >> Yeah. Well, once I It was raining like crazy outside. Of course, there was one drip coming through a big top that was landing. Here I am in these little shoes. I'm going to kill myself because you look down, see these spikes holding up a net with these spikes at the end of it. I thought, okay, one slip and I'm ental. But it I was so happy to have that done and over with. But again, I did it. Yeah. So, >> so do you think again do you think it was something physical for you that that prevented you from >> catching AIDS or >> I I don't know if it's something in my immune system >> that I you know but I must have been exposed to it just like other people I know >> have survived and they shouldn't you know >> because to hear some of the other people tell the the PTSD stories it's absolutely heartbreaking. breaking. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. >> You know, oh gosh, >> what saves me, you know. >> Yeah. >> If somebody's killed an automobile accident, why didn't I survive that? >> Yeah. >> And I always felt that, you know, there had to be something looking someone looking down on me or >> whatever because >> because I figured if anybody in this in the Chicago community would know anything, it would be you, you know. [laughter] Well, we you know, it was such a nobody knew anything at first. >> So, it was a big education thing. >> The use of condoms. >> Yeah. >> You know, a lot of people don't particularly care for condom use because it just doesn't flow right. >> Excuse me. >> And uh you know, but you have to get used to certain things in order to stay alive. >> Yeah. But now the Chicago History Museum. I saved this for a little bit later in the chat because it was so fascinating to watch happen. I was there that night and I I walked with the dosent, you know, around and she was pointing out things, talking about things. They were talking about you and uh we came I don't know where we we came to a certain point I think toward the end of the tourish maybe somewhere around there and she was talking about whatever it was and then you walked up and I remember the dose looked at you like that you were intruding maybe on the on the tour and I thought I I turned to other people and I said no wait that's Gary Tchester that's that's the man right here And the whole crowd was like whoa because you literally it was like a big stage entrance. >> I am so proud that I was asked to be part of that demonstr because uh seeing the show you realize I I grew up kind of during that graphic, you know, >> I grew up during that graphic period. >> Uh there used to be an underground newspaper called Seed. they put it into the the display. >> Uh we worked together with gay liberation and you had, you know, people that I wasn't, you know, women. I didn't really know a lot of lesbians. I didn't know just in women in general because once you're labeled, it seems like I stuck to my label and you know, but the early days we none of us knew anything. Everything we were doing was brand new to us. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it was amazing how if we wanted something gay to be put published, we had to go to the state because they would have the balls to publish anything queer, you know, in the newspaper. Uh you had the civil rights movement, you had the anti-war movement, >> uh you have the um you know just the women's movement, you know, all these different movements that they pulled together. >> Yeah. >> Uh and kind of made the woman who did the curating for that exhibit was absolutely the nicest person you'd want to, you know, we worked together for a long time. When I told her I had they're going to work, you know, with the anti-war movement in. When I told her I had a pair of boots that I had on when I got hit by a tear gas canister >> at the, you know, march for, you know, >> for the the convention, >> I think that's what you pointed out. I think that's what I saw you pointing out at the time. I think that boots were the topic. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, they had me doing recording and everything else. So, >> but but I mean to see you walk up was astounding. >> Truly. >> Yeah. It's my little bit of celebrity. We all have 15 minutes. >> Yeah. [laughter] But honestly, the look on the Dosan's face. I wish you could have seen it because she literally looked like [laughter] they did a really nice job. The uh history museum has a Chicago time. They did a good job. In fact, we hold our annual I'm involved with the Chicago LGBT Hall of Fame. >> Yeah. >> At the History Museum every year. >> Sorry. >> We do at the museum every year. >> And they're so easy to work with. It's it's just a pleasure to go down there. And >> And what an honor. >> They just extended it to uh 207 now. So, >> how wonderful. >> They're getting a lot of high school kids. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Education is so important. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And that's one reason like I do the Hall of Fame is because if we lose our identity, >> we lose our history. >> Yeah. True. >> And then we lose our rights. >> Yeah. >> And I, you know, I the Hall of Fame brings in people. We had an excellent diverse crowd of inductees class of 2025 this year. >> Wow. Wow. >> And you know uh absolutely amazing time, a lot of energy. >> Yeah. >> And uh I'm really proud of being one of the founders of >> that organization. >> Yeah. That the Wow. That's all I can say. you know, really. But you're a Disney freak. >> No. What makes you think of that? >> Well, a little birdie told me, so I I made sure to ask you about wearing your your ears. So, >> Oh, and look at those. They're pride ears. I love it. >> Tell me what what what's what about Disney is so fascinating for you? Well, it's the happiest place on earth. >> It's uh amazing how they make money and make you bro. If you ever been to a Disney park at the end of the night and people are go leaving the park and they have to get that last souvenir >> and you see them throwing money >> at the, you know, the park, you know, here, take this. I I gotta have this and everything. I think it's great merchandising. they've been going through their, you know, their um, what should I say, their problems with different things and decisions, >> you know, they change boards and >> but it's like if you go see the Wizard of Oz, there's something of that, you know, about the Wizard of Oz that queers really respect it. Wicked is another one. If you're queer, you really kind of get it. and Disney when they started doing pride uh events at Disney park, >> you know, and make it do the family thing, it's it's pretty amazing and uh it's just the way that they interact. So, somebody, you know, I I love the operation. I'm a stockholder. They've done very well for me, you know. [clears throat] Um but uh people don't realize that you know you have to be it's a good place to go and make you feel like there's nothing you you're a kid again. >> And you know it's no matter how old you are, you'll always at least I'll always have that. You know >> I'm glad you brought your ears. We couldn't have done it without them. >> I don't leave home without them. >> Yeah. I mean I I would have been disappointed if you hadn't. So >> [laughter] >> But you know somewhere out in internet land somewhere they're going to be people maybe kids I don't know but someone is going to see this interview. What advice can you offer people coming into the uh I'm going to just say leather gay whatever scene. words of wisdom. >> It's it's hard because the you know when you're trying to find yourself it's difficult just being a teen and then when they start >> throwing you the bodily changes you know when you start getting hair in places you didn't know you could get hair you know and things and you're growing up >> uh you feel things that you don't know what they are. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> back when I was growing up. I'm going to take this off because headbands don't, you know. >> Oh, no. Okay. >> But it's always there for me. So, >> good. >> Uh, it's it's such a change thing. You have to kind of learn to be yourself. Uh, and that's why the Hall of Fame is a thing I'm proud of. >> It helps people realize that you has to be be proud of who you are. >> Yeah. >> And that's what I liked about the changing of the word march to pride. It's parade because >> you go and you see the crowds that people are having a joyous time. They may be gay, they may not be gay, but there's something about the rainbow colors that, you know, make you smile. It's like bubbles, you know, that makes you smile. And you have to feel good about yourself because with all the hatred, you know, I remember when, >> you [clears throat] know, the churches, uh, you know, would put you down, >> uh, your jobs, you know, would, you know, any kind of employment could be an issue. Yeah, >> school could be an issue and um I just won't let that happen to me and I just encourage anybody who is having issues is to try to find their inner self and be true to that inner self. And there's right now where we didn't have a lot of support back in the early, you know, 60s and 70s. Now there is if you you go get help to get through you know and accept yourself >> very easily >> and you should do it you know and you learn about your background learn about the great people that I owe so much to my homosexuality I I feel like such a fuller person >> because I was queer >> y that you know I I think back if I wasn't queer. I'd probably be an old fddy daddy grandpa right now, which is, you know, for those people that like to be a grandpa is fine, but I really think I lose my life because of my homosexuality. >> I agree. I'm right there with you. What's the biggest misconception about you? >> I'm a nice guy. >> You're not? >> I don't know. I never think about misconceptions because I am what you see is what you get, you know. And people can think of different things. I'm sure they do of me. But again, once you get to know me, I think I can be pretty good guys and pretty, you know, good friend. Well, you've been lovely uh to Chicago and so many people and very kind to me about this interview and everything else. It's absolutely been wonderful. >> Well, that's part of my IML upbringing, too. >> Is being a Chicago native. >> Yeah. >> When we announced that we were having International Mr. Weather in Chicago, people from the coast would go, why is it going to be in, you know, Chicago? >> Yeah. >> It should be in New York. should be in San Francisco. >> And it brings me back to I think it was 82 again for IML and Chuck Roer, the owner of Touches, >> was one of the speakers at the opening >> and he related about how leather was everywhere in whatever your concept was. You could be a leather man and wear, you know, sweatpants. you it's in it's the mind thing. >> Yes. >> Agree. >> You could, you know. >> Yeah. >> And uh so we proved that. Yeah. Chicago, you want Oh, there's leather in Peoria. There's leather in Kansas City. There's leather in, >> you know, whatever. Yeah. >> All over. It's a mindset and it's in your brain. >> I agree. >> Yeah. It's been amazing for me because I came into the leather community at negative0 and now I've really I feel really earned something. So >> yeah, >> I made a lot of friends in the leather community and the non-leather community. >> I cherish them all because every person that touches you is part of you. It makes it >> gives you they leave their mark. >> Yes. Yes. >> And I figure >> good, bad or indifferent, you know. >> Good, bad or indifferent. [laughter] >> Right. >> But Gary Chai Chester, I have to thank you so very, very very, very much for this wonderful interview for Inside Leather History of Fireside Chat. And I hope I will see you again very soon. >> I hope so, too. Maybe I'll come out there. This weather is >> Please, please. I mean, I wish you could see outside. I closed the drapes, but I wish you could see outside. There's this great big beautiful sun just looking at me going, "Hey, how the heck are you?" you know. >> Yeah. No, I I know. I know. We were kind of lucky this year though. We had started, but then just two days ago, >> it fell on us. We had like in some areas of the city, we had six inches, eight inches of snow. >> No thanks. Way too early in the year for that. I mean, today is I don't think I said this, did I? It's November 11th, and you know, I'm in Palm Springs with sun and warmth and everything else. And there you are freezing your kazoo off. >> Yeah. Yeah, you got a point there. >> So, >> thank God I could play a cold kazoo, you know, my warm lips that do it, you know. >> Thank you very much. I appreciate my pleasure. >> And uh I will let you know when it's ready. Okay, thank you. >> Thank you. Bye bye. Now stay on with me. I'm going to stop the recording. Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. Let's just stop that. Hold on. >> Um where are we? Okay. We're gonna do uh