GodLogicApologetics vs. Waleed Naeem: Was Muhammad a True Prophet? (HEATED)

That is precisely the Islamic argument against you. You've been pretending for years now that oh my the Muslim argument doesn't make sense to me. Get it off your chest. How? Yeah. I'mma get it off my chest 100%. >> So you're getting your theology from the gospel, but I thought it was anonymous. I thought we can't trust it. >> Can No, no, no, no. Can I tell you what is the kingdom of heaven? >> Don't ask me. >> No, I'm asking you. Yeah. Yeah. What is No, I want to know what you think. I I know what I'm talking about. What are you What are you talking about with the kingdom of heaven? You tell me. >> Do you believe the first five books were written by Moses? Yes, I do. >> You do? Yeah, I do. >> All of them? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, okay. Wait. If if I if I if I were to find passages that contradict that, would that be an issue for you? >> Well, no. No, it wouldn't. So, >> it wouldn't. Why? Why? Why? One second would leave. One second. >> When you say he No, no, no, no, no, no. Hold on. Hold on. No, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying he's a man. There's male lobsters. There's male lions. God is masculine. So, we're going to start with a brief word from our sponsor, Mike from Roar. Very thrilled to have you here. Our sponsors make these events possible. Mike, the floor is all yours. >> Thank you so much, James. Everybody excited for tonight or today, too? Not even just tonight. I can tell you this. ROAR is a brand new organization. We are trying to get Christians united and teach them that it is actually a biblical mandate to get involved in civics and politics and government. Uh too many Christians think it's of the world and we are letting the secularists uh take advantage of that. And one of the people behind me is going to be really happy about a stat I have to say right now. And one of them is going to be very sad. about last year about uh last election cycle about 35 million Christians stayed at home and didn't vote. You know who showed up at the polls? Secularists, Islamists, they showed up. They're taking our towns. They're taking our communities. Christians, the only way we can fight back is to to unite. We were not made to whisper. We were made to roar. Come see me in the back. Uh revive the roar.app if you're watching on stream. Uh, come see me in the back if you want to talk and learn more. Let's get this thing going. >> Amen. Thanks, brother. >> All right, we are going to start indeed. So, I'm going to introduce our speakers with a speaker who will be going first. Will Naim is a Muslim apologist and debater known for confidently defending Islam against Christianity's most challenging theological questions. Please join me in welcoming Wed Naim. And introducing Avery, also known as God Logic Apologetics. He is a prominent Christian apologist recognized for his direct energetic approach to defending the Christian truth and is approaching a whopping 700,000 subscribers. Please join me in welcoming Avery. With that, gentlemen, I have the timer set for you. I will go on your first word. Will lead, the floor is all yours. Oh, that's right. Let me just turn on the projector. Sorry about that. All right. That's embarrassing. All right. Thanks for your patience. All right. I forgot that. All right. >> And then the US uh the HDMI cable. You're plugged into that one. The one that right right in front of the proje All right, testing the sound. All right, we're good. We're good. All right, ready to go. All praise to God, the Lord of the worlds, in the name of God, the entirely merciful and the especially merciful. I'm going to speak a little bit fast again to save some time. And I say peace be upon everybody here. So firstly, we have to ask ourselves, what is a prophet? A prophet is one who brings direct revelation and messages from God. Now obviously neither the prophet Muhammad is here today nor is Jesus here today right now. So this question about valid prophethood is inherently tied to their respective revelations. Their respective revelations are the proof of their prophethood. The seal of authentication. So we can go through the passages here John 5 and Luke 24. BC Jesus is appealing to Moses and the fact that he has a continuity with Moses as a stamp of authentication of his mission. If you believed in Moses, you'd believe in me. And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them all the things in the scriptures concerning himself. So the gospel of Jesus had some correlation, analogy, and continuity with the message of Moses. And among many other things, this continuity of his message was proof of his authentic divine mission. Specifically, analyzing the revelation is the most important factor for us in a time where we can't see the prophet for ourselves nor be witnesses to their miracles. Therefore, a conversation or debate about the authenticity of the prophet Muhammad's mission is directly related to the Quran. The Quran is not a distraction, but rather directly gerine to a discussion about the personality and authenticity of the prophet Muhammad, just as the message of Jesus was directly related to his authenticity in his time. And let me just make it clear quickly. In my presentation, I will be focusing on the Quran alone. We will dive into that elsewhere, but the Quran absolutely forces you to reject Hadith. I don't reject Hadith out of convenience or fancy. I reject the hadith because both reason and explicit Quranic conjunction force me to reject the hadith as unreliable sources. And you can see Quran 45:6, what hadith will we believe after God and his proofs? And I have a book available for free. You can see the Google Drive uh the link below. You can download that for free. Therefore, my stance as a Quran alone Muslim is not whimsical but is reasoned and theological because the hadith itself as a body of religious literature contradicts the core letter and spirit of the Quran. So now we must ask ourselves how would we determine a man is a true prophet of God. There are a few objective criteria. One is a continuity of message to the previous prophets. Not the exact same word for word, but a continuity. A prophet may bring in new rulings, new rituals, or uplift old rulings by the will of God. But his certificate of authenticity is directly related to if he taught the same overall worldview and understanding of God as the previous prophets did. If somebody brought an entirely different worldview and a completely different understanding of God, that would not be a continuity, but a usurppation and transformation of the message. It could not in any way be called the same religion anymore. So the example I'd like to give you is of Spider-Man 2 and 3. Spider-Man 2 and 3 are not usurpations and transformations of the Spider-Man series. They are continuations and clarifications. Although Spider-Man 2 and 3 are not the exact same as Spider-Man 1. Perhaps slightly different stories, different developments, new characters, new plot twists, they nevertheless faithfully and logically expand upon the world and concepts that are laid down in Spider-Man 1. The concept in this film franchise is humans being gifted these incredible powers and having to learn over time that with these great powers comes great responsibilities. If a theoretical purported Spider-Man 4 were to come out and instead of being about humans with incredible physical gifts and powers, it became more of a romcom or perhaps a slice of life romantic drama. Instead of the main message being that with great power comes great responsibility, the main message in this movie became that one should chase their dreams at all costs and never give up. We would all question if that is a legitimate and faithful continuation of the Spider-Man franchise. Therefore, consistency of philosophy and message is key. And clarification of old concepts and motifs is essential to know if something is a true continuation or a usurppation. We would employ this criteria to see if a movie franchise is legitimate and from the same director as the originals. And also we would employ this criteria to see if a purported prophet is legitimately continuing the franchise of prophecy from the same God that has always been revealing great truths to mankind. Jesus fit this criteria with Moses. Although there being slight differences, the overall worldview was the same. At least the Muslim conception of Jesus. The Quran which is the direct and most reliable source we have about the prophet Muhammad what he believed absolutely fits this criteria of being a clarifying continuation of the message of Jesus without radically altering the worldview. Now let me make it clear when I quote the Bible I am not saying it is perfect revelation from God. I understand that we are receiving these texts second and third hand in questionable condition. We are reading not a photograph of God's revelation but rather a man-made drawing or perhaps a drawing of a drawing which does slightly deviate from the originals but nevertheless does maintain core similarity. The Bible is not just one book. It is multiple books from multiple time periods in multiple conditions, multiple languages and multiple authors. The Bible itself is a work in progress throughout history. It has been redacted, edited, tampered, and overhauled by the various competing Christian sects that have laid a claim over it. The Bible itself is a concept, and to treat this heavily disputable, mixed up playlist as one single consistent thing all the way through, which the Christian religion requires you to do, is just disappointingly unscolarly and irresponsible. So with the Bible, we don't have originals. This is very clear that the pentetuk was not written by Moses and the gospels we have today are not written eyewitnesses of Jesus. Certainly not from Jesus himself and they don't even pretend to be. Look into the verses above yourself and you I don't have the time to read them. They don't even try to be eyewitnesses. It's a biography of Jesus. So it's kind of like having either a direct photo of somebody or a drawing or a drawing of a drawing of them. Although the drawing is not exact, certainly not as accurate as a photo would be, it still does nevertheless retain some of the core characteristics of the person it's trying to capture. Therefore, even within this disputable library that we have receiving second and third hand, there are some key underlying messages that repeat themselves all the way through, although there being some hiccups throughout the narrative. What is the number one underlying message of the Old Testament? It is that the God of Israel is one and demands exclusive worship without any associate partners. This is a point which Christians have forgotten as they associate partners with God. But it is undeniable that the worship of a singular God who rules over heaven and earth is probably the most emphasized motif throughout the whole Old Testament. This theme is absolutely picked up and emphasized to the ultimate degree in the Quran with and the concept of illallah. Another core concept of the Old Testament is the law of God. That to consistently strive and uphold the commandments set down by the Lord are necessary to earn his love and favor. That works of the law play an essential role in justification. We see this exact legal punitive commandment-based system as a core foundation of the Quranic message known as al-qab. Then we get into the New Testament, more specifically the words of Jesus as we possess them today in their second and third hand conditions. What is the main emphasis of Jesus in the gospels today? The overwhelming themes, the kingdom of heaven, the hereafter, to store up good deeds with our Lord in heaven, investments which we will see on the other side, having true and sincere faith in God. Not hypocritical piety performances, but genuine reverence, love, and devotion in your private life. To not be attached to the life of this world as it is a fe fleeting and passing pleasure, nothing compared to the riches that await the believers in eternity. to not fear for tomorrow and trust that God will provide and take care of you unseen and place all your patronage in the Lord. It's hard for me to quote verses to you not because they don't exist, but because so many verses exist throughout the gospels which emphasize those points I was mentioning, which I just shared with you that if I were to read them all to you, I'd expire all my time to speak. These aren't just one-off points. These are the essential characteristics of the Jesus message, even in the somewhat corrupted form we have the Gospels today. And all of these points are the main emphasis of the Quran. The oneness of God in the legal system of the Old Testament, the kingdom of heaven or to store up good deeds with God that you'll see on the day of judgment or to store up good deeds with God. Yeah. To have true and sincere faith in God. Not a performative piety display. This is known as im and being to not be attached to the life of this world, but to look to the eternal kingdom to come. also known as the life of this world and to never fear any man or any ill faith but to have trust in the plan of God that your Lord will provide for you your needs known as in Arabic. Therefore, the Quran represents a synthesis of all the biggest most reoccurring themes throughout the Bible and the most legendary prophets without the corruptions that contradict these main themes which occasionally show up in the Bible both throughout the Old and New Testament. So on the point of continuity, it hits the nail on the head for the entire Bible. The same cannot be said for Paul, the most prolific author of the New Testament. And although this debate is titled, is Muhammad the true prophet, which is a little bit of an unfair interrogation, really the title should be Muhammad or Paul, who was the inspired man of God or also the Quran or the epistles. Which continues the religion of Moses and Jesus? That's what this whole Christian versus Muslim debate really boils down to. Muhammad or Paul whose message has continuity with Moses and Jesus and Paul's emphasis was entirely different. The core essentials of his gospel as he words it are the following. Faith in this divine man as opposed to exclusive devotion to God alone. Faith alone and not works of the law as a means of salvation and justification. That our works in the grand scheme of things are as filthy rags and the only thing we can rely on to save us is the blood atonement of Jesus. the core themes of the Pauline faith as having your faith devotion and and centered around a man and not God and to not view works as a means of justification but rather having faith apart from works of the law. These are antithetical to the entirety of the Old Testament and even the words of Jesus in the New Testament alite again being in a somewhat corrupt condition. The Quran is a continuation of the core themes found in the Bible. Paul's writings however are a usurppation and transformation. The final stamp of authenticity on the prophet Muhammad is the historical impact and legacy of his mission. We are all believers here or at least we claim to be. As believers, we believe in the divine hand of God that our Lord for his own purposes and agendas is guiding not only the lives of individuals but the entire course of history to fulfill his plan for creation. History is not accidental. It is guided, steered, dare I say, written into place before it comes to pass by the one who controls all things. Therefore, it is a peculiar anomaly of history that this incredible book called the Quran, which just so happens to hit on all the major themes found throughout the Bible and claims to be a continuation of the same legacy of prophets, also happened to revolutionize the entire world. Human history is largely Muslim history. There is only one group of people in the world that have had the impact and influence that Christians have and that is Muslims. Not six, not Zoroastrians, not Hindus, only the Muslims. Like Christendom, entire kingdom, civilizations, eras and epochs internationally were defined by the Quranic Islamic message and by extension the legacy of the prophet Muhammad's mission. And history means something. And the fact that for some reason this book which unites and clarifies all the main things found in the Bible, it just so happened that God took this message all over the world. That is not something to scoff at. That the prophet Muhammad's mission of a unification of the message of the ancient prophets just so happened to be so wildly successful, arguably the most successful mission in human history, certainly tied with Jesus. And not that they're competing with each other. It is also an even more curious anomaly of history that this literary and historical marvel of a book also just happens to be preserved as well as it promises to be. Despite different sects around the world fighting with each other and having vastly different theologies and views, we all read the same 114 chapters of the Quran. This level of preservation is unheard of. Not even the Bible can boast of such a resume where unfortunately its competing sects have edited and tampered it to no end for their own purposes. The promises of the Quran curiously ended up coming true through the course of history. You can see God promises to preserve it. And God also says in chapter 110 that you will see mankind enter the religion of God in crowds. And we can see that through the Muslim legacy and how impactful they've been. It is therefore undeniable the continuity of message, the historical worldchanging resume, the special level of preservation that no scripture can boast of. All these things added together. Does that not at the very least make the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad worthy of consideration? That perhaps his claim to prophethood could very well be legitimate. All of these qualities of the Quran and the legacy of the man Muhammad serve as the ultimate validation of his office as a true prophet of God. So what we are left with is three Spider-Man movies. Jews only accept Spider-Man 1. Christians accept Spider-Man 1 and two strongly misunderstanding the message of the movies. And then finally, you have the Muslims, specifically the Quran alone. Muslims who don't accept non-cononical hadith, who accepted the whole trilogy and franchise for what it is, and that is authentic back-to-back installments from the same maker. All praise to God, the Lord of the worlds. Thank you very much for that opening. We'll lead. We'll we'll switch it over to Avery for his opening statement now. This will also be 15 minutes. And Avery, the floor is all yours. I will start the clock only on your first word. Testing, testing. How's everybody doing, >> man? Y'all sleep, man. Yeah, there you go. That's what I'm talking about. >> Crisis King. Crisis King indeed. Um, it's good to be here, guys. So, just listening to this opening statement. Number one, I have become an infinite fan of Wed because we have something in common. We're both Quran only except with a little bit of a touch. I actually am an original Quran only Christian because I believe in the original Quran before it got corrupted. So, this is kind of where we might differ, but we both have the same sentiment in that we are both Quran alone. And since we are Quran alone, what's the only thing we do here, ladies and gentlemen? >> We just read. So, let's go ahead and get into this. We're going to demonstrate why it is that Muhammad is actually not a prophet, not a true prophet according to the Quran and what the Quran says. This is really something important. I like what he talked about. Because what he talked about was what I was going to talk about, which is continuity. Continuity is what Muslims usually pride themselves on. continuity with the previous prophets and the previous message is usually what Allah, what Muhammad, what the Sahaba, meaning the companions of Muhammad, this is what they all prided themselves on. They pride themselves on being in line with the previous message. Matter of fact, here is a very important verse. If you guys have notebooks or you want to take notes, take notes in this debate because these are verses you should use. Chapter 3 81. Chapter 3:81. This is important because it talks about a covenant that Allah makes with the previous prophets. This is what it says. It says, "And remember when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying,"What did he say to them? I have given you the scripture and the wisdom, and I will afterwards send a messenger to come after you, confirming what is with you. As a result, you are to believe in him and support him. Allah said, "Do you agree?" And the prophet said, "We agree." He said, "Then bear witness and I am with you among the witnesses for this covenant." So notice the importance here. The importance is is that Allah and the and the prophets come together. They make a pact. They make a covenant, a binding agreement. Allah's end of the bargain is, "Hey y'all, I gave you the scripture and I gave you wisdom. And I'm going to send you a messenger confirming what you have, not what you used to have, not a corrupted version. He's going to be in line with what you have." As a result, you have to believe in him and help him out. Do you agree with this? They agree. So, how are they supposed to recognize this messenger if he comes contradicting them? If he comes saying that what they have is corrupted? No, the way that they recognize this prophet is if he is in line with what is present with them. If he comes contradicting what they have, then guess what? He's a false prophet according to the covenant. They can shoe him away and say, "No, you're not the one that Allah told us about." Allah told us that the messenger coming is going to confirm what I have, not contradict it. So continuity, Muhammad's prophethood is based on the continuity with what we have with what the prophets preached with the scriptures that was in the possession of the Jews and the Christians. If he's not in line with what we have, then he's a false prophet according to the standard of the Quran. Chapter 3 81. It gets better because the Quran further on uh establishes our scriptures as the standard of truth. If this wasn't enough for you, if chapter 3:81 wasn't enough, then we have to keep going. We have chapter 10 verse 94. Y'all know this verse. So if you talking to Muhammad are in doubt about that which we have revealed to you, what does Allah tell him to do? Go and ask those who've been reading the scripture before you. The truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not among those who doubt. What does this mean? If Muhammad is doubting the perfectly preserved fully uh pres uh uh uh re relevatory book that Allah sent down if he's has any doubts about this book where can he go to get certainty to us come to us come to our books come to our scriptures and we can tell you if the Quran is getting this stuff right or not so what's the standard of truth according to the Quran again it is our scriptures he has to align with what we have. Here's another one. Chapter 16:43. It says, "And we sent not messengers before you except men whom we inspired. So ask the people of the reminder if you do not know." Now, it's really interesting because uh Wed had a verse up there, chapter 15:9, that promised that Allah would protect the reminder. But here in chapter 16:43, he says, "Go ask the people of the reminder if you do not know." I wonder who those people are. That's you and me. That's us in here. So if y'all don't know about what the Quran is talking about, you could come to us, the people of the reminder, which according to the Quran, Allah swore to protect. He swore to guard. So it seems to me that one of the criterias that Wii gave for the Quran and Muhammad being true actually works for us. Allah promised to protect our reminder. He promised to protect his books in his revelation. So according to the Quran, our book passes the test with flying colors of preservation, authority and inspiration. Now when it comes to this since we already established now that the scriptures that we have the scriptures that you have are the authority and the binding standard by which Muhammad is a true prophet or not. Now we can look at the claims of the Quran and see if it is indeed in line because we saw a whole list of verses and concepts claiming that that the Quran is in line with what we have. Okay. So let's see here in chapter 61:6. This is what it says. It says that Jesus, speaking of Jesus, speaking of Jesus, it says, "And remember when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "Oh children of Israel, I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming the Torah that came before me, and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me named Ahmed." Now, raise your hands if you guys have ever seen in the gospel the name Ahmed. Nobody raise your hands if you've never seen it. Shoot, y'all. Some Islamophobes in here. What the heck? That's crazy. Y none of y'all found it. That don't make no sense. It got to be in there. The book is big. You know, it's gone through, you know, a lot of generations and a lot of, you know, tampering and stuff like that. It got to be in there somewhere, right? No, that's tough. I I just think that y'all ain't trying. Y'all, y'all's hearts are deceived. That's all. Hearts, it's it's it's the hearts that's blind, not the eyes. Uh, wow. So, I'm pretty sure if we open it up and spend some time, we can find it in 2,000 years or something. So, Jesus says according to the Quran that we can find Ahmed mentioned by Jesus. Jesus said that he's going to come after me. He better be there or else Muhammad is making a false claim here and he's a false prophet. Here's another claim, guys. Chapter 7, verse 157. You guys know this one? Those who follow the unlettered prophet who they find written in the Torah and the Gospel with them. So what does this mean? I should be able to find the description of Muhammad in the Torah and the Gospel. And guess what? This is in the time of Muhammad which he's saying is corrup corrupted and tampered with and gone through revisions. So, in the corrupted Torah Gospel, I should still find Muhammad mentioned in there. Show of hands if you guys ever seen it. Show of hands if you haven't. Y'all lying. I don't believe you. You guys are just all hating on the prophet. He's clearly mentioned in our scriptures. We can see him clearly as we know our own brothers and sisters, our own sons and daughters. At least that's what the Quran claims. So, y'all can't see him in there. Let talk back to me. Y'all can't see him in there. Never. Yeah. Yeah, some Islamophobes for sure, man. Now, we always hear about how Muhammad is mentioned in our scriptures. Is that right? But here's a claim that actually nobody really pays too much attention to. This is in chapter 26, y'all. Y'all might enjoy this one. Chapter 26, starting at verse 192. It says, "And truly this," talking about the Quran, "this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds, which the trustworthy spirit has brought down upon your heart, that you may be of the warers in the plain Arabic language." And catch this part. This part is really crazy. And verily it the Quran is found in the scriptures of the former people. So it's not just that Muhammad is mentioned in our scriptures. The Quran is mentioned in our scriptures. Y'all raise of hands if you ever seen it. Raise of hands if you have never ever ever ever ever ever seen the Quran mentioned in your Bible. That's tough. Again, all these hands raised are Islamophobes. So, what we're seeing here is that one, Christians can't read. This is crazy. Y'all laughing. Christians can't read. Your hearts are deceived and darkened. And for over 2,000 years, Muhammad has been mentioned in your scriptures. The Quran has been mentioned in your scriptures right before your very eyes. And you just been blind. You just been blind. So now, repeat after me. Ashadua. No. Okay, y'all not ready. Don't worry. We'll convince you later. We're going to convince you today. But this is what it is, guys. The Quran makes these huge bold claims that Muhammad and the Quran being mentioned in our scriptures. If they are not, then based on the Quran, based on the covenant that Allah made with the prophets, based upon the standard of truth in which if Muhammad's down in the Quran, he can come to us and get, if he's not in our scriptures, then Muhammad is not a true prophet. Then I wonder who sent him. We can leave that for the next topic. That's our next debate. But listen here. So the Bible gives us telltale signs of what a true prophet is. Let's say, you know what? If we're just going to put this to the side, at least the Quran is in, you know, thematic continuity, right? The theological continuity with us. Is that correct? I mean, it has to be in line with the main themes uh with our scriptures as he presented. Now, this is what the Bible says because it gives us telltale signs on how we can tell a prophet from a false prophet. In Deuteronomy 13:es 1 and4 in the Torah it says, "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder and the sign or wonder comes true concerning which he spoke to you, saying and he says, let us walk after other gods whom you have not known, and let us serve them. You shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. Or uh for Yahweh your God is testing you to find out if you love Yahweh your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after Yahweh your God and fear him and shall keep his commandments, listen to his voice, serve him, and cling to him. Notice what this just said. This just said that a false prophet can give a true prophecy. that a false dreamer of dreams can even give a true dream, can work a sign or a wonder that comes true. Here's the key. If he leads you after a false god other than you've known, other than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob of the covenant, then he's a false prophet. Don't listen to him. He shall die. So I can grant I if even if Muhammad actually split the moon, even if Muhammad gave a real miracle or sign or a real prophecy that people will be uh leaving Islam in droves, which they are, man, he's troop, you know, he was on something with that. Or in the hadith when he says that, you know, women are halfbrained, he might be under under something with that one. According he almost convinced me, but remember we're Quran only here. But that one almost got me. If he gives a true prophecy and he leads us after a false god, then he is a false prophet. So if we look at who the true God is, here's another thing he says, "But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in my name which I have not commanded him to speak or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die." You see the consistency? If he speaks something I didn't tell him or speaks in the name of another god um he shall die. Right? So let's see here. Who did Moses say God was? This is Exodus 4 22. Then you shall say to Pharaoh, thus says Yahweh, Israel is my son, my firstborn. Let him go. According to this, what do we see that God is? God is a father to Israel. Is that right? We understand that so far. Deuteronomy 8:es 1-6. He says, "The entire commandment that I am commanding you today, you shall be careful to do that you may live and multiply and go in the land which the uh which Yahweh swore to give your fathers. And you shall remember all the way which Yahweh your God has led you in the wilderness these 40 years, that he might humble you, testing you to know what is in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not." And he humbled you and let you be hungry and fed you with mana which you did not know. Nor did your fathers know that he might make you know that the man that man does not live by bread alone but by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of Yahweh. Watch this. Your clothing did not wear out nor did your foot swell these 40 years. Thus shall you know in your heart Yahweh your God was disciplining you just as a man disciplines his own >> son. >> 10 seconds. Thank you. And then so we hear Deuteronomy 14:1, you are the sons of Yahweh, your God, our God, your God. You shall not gash yourselves nor shave your head for the sake of the dead. We see consistently in the Torah that God is a father to Israel. But the Quran says in chapter 19:93, it says there's none in the heavens of the earth that could come to Allah except as a slave. >> Time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much for that opening. I'm sure this is going to be an amazing open dialogue. Gentlemen, I want to let this be as organic as possible. So, I want to give you guys a lot of freedom, but if it gets too rocky, I'll have to just jump in, separate you guys with that. Gentlemen, the floor is all yours for open dialogue. >> Um, I I would like to hear your thoughts on what I was mentioning about the theology of who God is. Y >> obviously the Quran is clear that Allah is not a father in any way, shape or form to anyone. >> So how do you reconcile that cuz it's a major it's a major theme that Allah or God is the father. Yahweh is a father to Israel and to his people. What are your thoughts? >> Yeah. Okay. So I don't mind I don't have a problem ascribing some of the qualities that we ascribe to fathers. Mentoring, caring, taking care of people. I don't mind ascribing that to God. But the issue is when you start saying a literal begotten son because he is now begotten of the father. He bears some of the definity of the father and therefore worthy of worship. So I don't mind some of the characteristic qualities of a father but not literal fatherhood. >> Yeah. So so you're saying that Allah is a father in some sense. >> There are certain qualities associated with fatherhood that we can associate with God. >> Would you say that there are certain qualities of motherhood that we can associate with Allah? >> Not that I can think of. >> Does a mother sustain you? A mother can Yeah. A mother to sustain you. >> Does a mother uh take >> Sure. Sure. Sure. A mother can love somebody. God can love somebody. Yes. So like we can take abstract concepts that are applied to certain things and apply them to God. Doesn't mean God is a literal mother or father. >> Or what would you say that Allah can be a metaphorical mother? >> I wouldn't go down that road. I wouldn't because just the the reason for that is because in the Quran and the Bible, God is consistently described as masculine. He he a king. So I wouldn't go down that road. >> Okay. So, so it sounds like when you're taking uh these traits of motherhood or fatherhood, you can like accept these traits, but you would never call Allah a mother because it's not in the scripture that it's like he's applied this way. >> I would be cautious because in the present dispensation, people take those words and they go full literal with them. So like I can say my mother loves me and also I can say God loves me. But then there's other people out there like Hindus, they believe in a divine feminine. I can say God cares for me and he teaches me, instructs me like a father. But then there's other people who say God is a son. So I just be cautious because of the dispensation we're in. >> So can you according to the Quran, can you in your personal relationship with Allah as a Muslim? Can you refer to Allah as your father metaphorically? >> Can I refer to God as a father metaphorically? Can you give me a specific statement like that in your mind? So if you were to say uh father help me today or father watch over my wife and my kids >> I wouldn't do that but I could say in my prayer my lord you instruct me like a father >> would it be against the Quran to do that to say father help me my heavenly father let your will be done my heavenly father um watch over my kids and my wife as a Muslim >> God knows the intents of man so god knows in what sense am I meaning it so I wouldn't say yeah god tries the hearts if I'm saying that he's literally my daddy god forbid but if I'm saying it just purely to refer refer to him in his caring capacity, then God knows my heart. So I wouldn't say it's like totally forbidden. But again, I'd be careful. That's a private prayer. I wouldn't publicly profess that because I mean, we live in the Christian era where people take that really far. >> How do how do you understand the verse about Allah's names when it says in 718 to that he has the most beautiful names, call him by those and avoid those who deviate from his names. What what would your understanding of that be? >> What what was the verse again? >> Uh chapter 7. 7 180 >> 180 Yeah. >> 180. Okay. And to God belongs the fairest names. Then called to him by them and leave those who deviate concerning his names. They will be rewarded for what they did. >> How do you understand that? >> So I understand that God has been since ancient times by every culture called by every praise in the book the glorious the almighty the all powerful. But then those who deviate concerning his name. So if I say God cares for me like a father but then those who deviate and start saying he's a literal father then don't dispute with these people they will be rewarded for what they did. >> So it it's wrong to call Allah by names that are not his. >> It is wrong to ascribe incorrect qualities to God or or speak of him in an incorrect sense. >> So there are very good. So there are correct senses in which to speak to him about of um there are correct names in which you call him and you cannot call him by incorrect names. Right. >> Yeah. Appropriate and inappropriate. Yeah. >> Okay. So >> and but but words they change the meaning depend on context. >> Sure. But but uh but the thing is is that even if a a word can change depending on context which I agree there are words that apply to to Allah according to this and there are words that don't. There are names that apply to him and there's names that don't because he warns against people who deviate from his names. That would mean that there's a standard of names that he has. And to deviate from this list of names, you should avoid these people. They're wrong. >> Well, deviation could be many things. It could be ascribing a totally false quality to God altogether. So I if I say God is, God forbid, but God is the feminine. That's totally inappropriate. Or a deviation could be a word God cares for me like a father. But then those who take that in a wrong sense. So deviation has a broad spectrum. >> So if I were to say as a Muslim, Allah, you are my heavenly father, right? Not in a literal way. In my heart, I don't mean it literally. I just mean that he is my heavenly father. He created me. He takes care of me. He's my source. He watches over me. He disciplines me like a father does a son. I say he's my heavenly father. Am I deviating from his names? >> I wouldn't have a problem with that. No. So long as again, you're not referring as a begotten son. >> Okay. So where in the Quran does it affirm that Allah is a father in any way? It doesn't use that term to refer to to Allah. It does not use that term. Why? Because there are those who have like you and the Christians deviated concerning that name. So now to clear up that confusion, there is no sense in which the Quran refers to him as a father. >> Did did people deviate from the meaning of Messiah? >> People deviate the meaning of Messiah, I would say. So yeah. >> Does Allah still use it? >> Allah uses Msiah. Yeah. >> Why? If they deviate it, why does he still >> God knows best? God knows best. >> Okay. Yeah. So, I'm seeing a I'm seeing an inconsistent uh standard here. You're saying that, oh, well, he got rid of the term father because Christians misused it and took it literally, but he still uses other terms that people applied to Jesus as God by calling it. They said that the Messiah is Allah in chapter 5 72. So, they misuse this term Messiah and and attribute it to him to being God, calling him Messiah. And yet, it's still being used. >> Well, they didn't say in that verse, the Messiah means God. We know what Messiah means. It means the chosen one, the anointed one, right? But it's that they're taking this man who we know that word means the chosen one, but the chosen one is God. So they're ascribing to him a false quality. It's not that everybody knows what Messiah means, but father can have multiple senses either metaphorically. >> I agree. So listen to what you So listen to what you said. You said that they're not saying Messiah means God. They're just ascribing the Messiah to be God, right? So similar to how Christians would ascribe the father to be God. They're not saying that father means God. They're just saying that God is the father. And so with this being said, then is that good? Is that is that okay? Is that is Allah the father? Is is Allah the father? >> Allah is my patriarchal mentor and that's not what I asked. >> No, no, no, no. Cuz you're trying to force a specific definition of the word father on me that is appropriate for your religion but not mine. >> No, I promise you. Look, I I'm talking about any sense. So I'm not trying to box you in on oh physical or about God. No. No. in any way, shape or form as a Muslim according because you're Quran only. >> According to the Quran, is it permissible as a Muslim for you to come to Allah as a son in any way? >> Is it permissible for me to come? It is permissible for me in private prayer to come as a metaphorical son. >> Okay. Where does the Quran tell you that? >> The Quran doesn't say that. >> Then then where you I'm taking the qualities of a father which God does describe himself in the Quran as a mentor, as a teacher, as one who chastises you. Those are patriarchal fatherly qualities. >> So then I can do the same as a mother. I can come to Allah in my private prayer, in my private relationship with him as a mother and say, "You are my heavenly mother. Thank you, mother." Because I can ascribe these motherly qualities to him. It's appropriate. >> There's one key difference. Okay? >> The Quran refers to God in the masculine, never as the feminine. >> Okay? >> That that's a that's a major difference. >> It's not because look, >> it's so so like I'll give you an example. I'll give you an example. So if I go to my dad, my dad is my caretaker, my mentor, but he's masculine. I can't go to him be like, you know, you're you're my mother. It's even though he has some qualities that my mother has, he loves me, he cares for me, but it's just it's an inappropriate application at that point because my dad is masculine. >> Okay. So when you're saying that your dad is masculine, he's a he. He's a male. >> Yes. >> But you don't believe Allah is a male. >> I believe God is masculine. >> So you believe he's a man? >> I believe he's male. Not man. Not a man. He's male. He's male. Yeah, that's how the Quran refers to him. I know it's shocking to people. This is when you say he. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Hold on, hold on, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying he's a man. There's male lobsters. There's male lions. God is masculine. >> I know. Listen, listen, man. I know you can do all of these performances in front of an audience, but can you show me how that's wrong? Does not the Bible strictly refer to God in the mas? You actually literally believe God is a man. You I'm not saying he's a man. I'm saying he's masculine. I'm saying he's of a masculine essence. But you actually say he's a man. >> It's not often that I allow my opponent to go on as long. But you, dude, I liked listening to that. >> Do you believe God's a man? >> No, I don't. >> You don't? >> I don't. I don't I don't I don't believe that God is a man essentially. I um especially if you're talking the Bible says that God is spirit. >> Okay. Um I do believe that God took on human nature eventually, but that's not you know, he's not essentially man like before the uh you know, he he took on flesh. Jesus, my thing. Okay. Go ahead. Go ahead. My my thing is I I hear you saying that you believe God is male like a lobster is a male but not a man. Um, but uh, shoot. >> You're you're saying you're saying shoot. You're saying shoot, but you can't show me you can't show me any basis of how God is not masculine. And actually, I'm showing I'm showing here's the point. This is the hypocrisy of you. So, you're you're you're getting me you're you're trying to make a big joke out of me saying God is masculine and male. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, this is this is what you're doing. But you yourself believe God became a man. >> Okay. So by that very same standard, you're being illogical. >> Okay. So according according to the Quran, did did Allah take on flesh? >> God did not take on flesh in the Quran. >> Okay. According to Christianity, did God take on flesh? >> According to Christianity, God became flesh. >> So you comparing your theology to mine. It doesn't make sense for you to say, well, you believe God is a man. Well, in our Christian in our in the Bible, it talks about how God takes on flesh and humbles himself and becomes man for our sake. You don't believe that as a mus you don't believe that as a Muslim. >> So if you're going with Quranic theology, you saying that Allah is a male but not a man but he's a male, >> that's that's tough. >> How's that tough? >> I I can agree with you that there's masculine uh he's masculine. But to say that he's male would be a little bit different because that's going into like he's a male is a a a man. That's what a male is. >> A lobster is a man. A male lobster is a man. It's a physical it's a physical type of being, >> right? I I believe this is how the Quran and the majority of the Bible describe God. I believe God is a physical concrete entity that has a specific spatial location. He's not a concept. He's not an idea. He's not an energy. He dwells above the earth on his throne. >> Okay, I got you. Interesting. Yes. >> Okay. So, you believe that Allah is a physical being. He has a space that he occupies. He Okay. >> Yes. In the highest heaven. Okay. So, so now going back to the the who God is because this matters, right? So, you're saying you agreed that the Quran nowhere says that Allah is a father in any way, shape, or form? >> It doesn't refer to him as that. >> Right. Now, does it deny that he's a father? >> Does it deny that he's a father? It denies that he begets. >> Okay. Does it Okay. So, when the Jews and Christians say that they're the sons of Allah, his beloved ones, right? Uh chapter 5:18. You familiar with that verse? >> Yeah. Let's pull it up quickly. >> Okay. >> It says that the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the sons of Allah and his beloved." >> And then he says, "Say >> 5:18." >> Mhm. >> 5:18. Okay. >> He says, "Say, why then does he punish you for your sins? You are but men." No, you are but men. And he punishes who he will, has mercy on who he wills, and to him is the return. >> Right? >> So, are the Jews and the Christians here claiming to be begotten sons of Allah? >> No. No. Does Allah deny that they are his children here? >> Right? So in this sense they're using the word when they say we are sons of God. They're saying basically we as an ethnic race, we are more favored and closer to God than any other people. This is what they're saying right here. So God is refuting that sense of a son that you have in some ways a closer lineage to me by your ethnicity. No, you are just whom God has created. >> Does it say that? That's how you look and the rabbitic Jews and the Christians say we are the sons of God and his beloved. So what are they I want to know what are they implying here by son? What do they mean by that? >> Well, they mean that God loves them that he takes care of them. Uh that they follow the prophets and they're in line with his with his covenant. So the Jews is remember it's Jews and Christians. So Christians that's that's not a race. That's a a good >> Yeah. Yeah. We're talking about Jews. That's that's an ethnic ethno religion. Christians. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, we're getting here and continue reading on. Say thou, why then does he punish you for your transgressions? So, what is meant by son here? Son is meant by I have a unmmerited favor from God and nobody can punish me. God cannot punish me for this. So, he's saying, well, hold on a second. Why does he punish you for your sins? That's the sense in which they're using the son. I have a free pass. That's that's the sense in which it's using it. >> Well, no, it just says that we are the sons of Allah and his beloved. And then he says, "Say then, why does he punish you for your sins?" So his this is uh him refuting their claim that he's their sons, right? Because he wouldn't punish them for their sins if they were his sons. >> No, it's saying they're saying that they themselves are free from punishment because they have some degree of closeness to God. This so when they're saying son, they're referring to some kind of free pass that they get. And God say, "Hold on a second. You don't have that free pass." >> Can I give you an example? >> Go for If you were to say, "Man, Avery, you're my friend, but you never feed me." And then I say, "Then why is there a plate on your food?" on your Why is there a plate on your table? What am I saying? >> Why is there a plate on my table? >> Yeah. Okay. If you say, "Avery, >> you're supposed to be my friend, but you never feed me. >> You're supposed to be my friend, but you never feed me." Okay. >> And I respond by saying, "Then why is there a plate on your table?" >> Okay. >> What am I saying? What am I arguing? >> Well, you're showing to me that you have fed me, >> right? and therefore I am your I am your true friend because I I am feeling I'm refuting you right >> so when they say we are the sons of Allah his loved ones and Allah's response is then why does he punish you for your sins means that you're not his sons because if you were not then he wouldn't punish you for your sins >> people even chastise their own sons that's not the point I so this this is not referring to it in that sense it's like saying this how do I put it uh I've heard this I've spoken to Christians this is a I don't know if you believe in eternal hellfire, hellfire, whatever. But I've spoken to them. They say that there can't be hellfire. That we're all children of God. We're all the beloved of God. I've talked to Mormons. I've talked to Jehovah's Witnesses. We're all children. >> They're not They're not Christians, >> right? But I'm I'm I'm just I'm just They say they believe in Christ. >> So what? >> They believe in Christ. I've talked to people who call themselves Christians, and it's a very common sentiment. People are not going to burn in hellfire because we're all children of God. This is an enduring belief system even to this day. Maybe not with you, but with others. But so notice, so your your example helps me when you say that their thought process is we're all childrens of God. We're all children of God. Therefore, we won't burn in hell. This is their argument. Hell is not eternal. We won't burn in hell because we are children of God. Right. >> Yeah. God will punish us. >> So So their argument, so by this statement, by this line of thinking, God would not send children to hell, right? That's their line of thinking. >> That's their line of thinking. Yeah. >> Right. So according to this it says we are the children of Allah his loved ones. And he says say then why then does he punish you for your sins? Meaning that if you were my children then I wouldn't punish you for your sins. But because I punish you for your sins that is an evidence that you're not my children. >> Right? So the word the word son in this sense is being used as a free pass. >> No he no that's that's not. It just means that Allah is showing them that they don't have a free pass at all because they're not his children. If they were his children, then they would have a free pass. >> That's not at all what it's saying. No, that's not at all what it's saying. >> All right, I address that. Um, so do you do you agree that Israel is is Allah's children? Are Allah's children? Do I agree again in what you're trying to lock me into a certain >> any any sense is is Israel are are is one nation is are Israel the children of of God? >> Are Israel the children of God? I think I would say yeah is children Yeah. Are the children of Israel the children of God? >> Right. Are the are the children of Israel the children of God? >> Yeah, that sounds better. >> Yeah, I would say no. I would say no. Okay. >> I would say no because of again how that word has been so abused >> in any sense. >> There are certain fatherly qualities we can ascribe to God. >> That's not asking in any sense. I'm not asking oh well he has qualities of a father. Anybody can have qualities of a father not a father. >> Are they the children of God? >> Not an exclusivity to the rest of mankind. >> I didn't ask that. Are they >> are they the children of God? Yes, I would say no. But we can qualify. We can qualify though further >> depending on like what kind of question you ask me. We can qualify. >> Okay. Well, so remember we're talking about the the continuity, right? So with the Quran teaching that the children of Israel are not his children. They're not his children in any way. >> The Torah, the major theme of the Torah, matter of fact, this is what God tells Moses to tell Pharaoh to let my son go. Israel is my firstborn. Mhm. >> He says this over and over and over again. He says that in Deuteronomy 14:1, you are the sons of Yahweh your God. >> Over and over and over again, we get this God is the father to Israel. >> Patriarchal language. >> So with this being the case, if according to Islam, >> God is not the father of Israel, then this is not the same God that Moses is preaching about that we see in the Torah. >> Okay? So this is the thing again like I mentioned in my presentation when we are reading the Bible we are not getting a photograph of God's original revelation. We're getting a drawing of a drawing of a drawing. So okay when I when I read the and you can let me know if this is the main themes or not. When I read the Old Testament cuz the Bible itself doesn't agree with itself. When I read the Old Testament the main reoccurring theme is the exclusivity of God's worship and this commandmentbased legal system for justification. That's what I read about in the Old Testament. And that is the main theme of the Quran. Then we get into the New Testament. We talk about Jesus. His main message is the kingdom of heaven, searching for the other side. And that is the main message of the Quran with again there's hiccups here and there in the Bible. So I'm saying the main most reoccurring themes in the Bible absolutely strike accord with the Quran and not with Paul. Not with Paul. >> So So Jesus speaking of the kingdom uh he talks about the will of his father. What is the will of his father? He says, "For this is the will of my father." I'll stop there. Is Jesus the son of Allah? >> Is Jesus the son of Allah? Not in the sense that you're talking >> any sense. >> Jesus is beloved and cared by God. >> Is he a son? Is he the son of Allah? >> I would say no. >> So therefore, Jesus is not talking about Allah. Then Muhammad is not in continuity and he's a false prophet because Jesus says God is his father. I'll keep reading. >> Okay. For this is the will of my father that everyone who sees the son and believes in him will have eternal life and I myself will raise him up on the last day. Can a good Muslim prophet teach that they are the son of God who all mankind is supposed to believe in for their eternal life and he himself is going to raise them up on the last day? >> No, that's not true Islam. >> So then therefore true Islam is not in continuity with Jesus. No, what you have what you have is an anonymous gospel. That's what you have. Uh >> oh. >> Yes. >> Y'all know what's coming next then. >> Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You You have an anonymous gospel. I'm just saying this. Listen, y'all don't need to take my word for it. Go ahead, read your Bible cover to cover and it's going to contradict itself. But the main themes in it, worship one God, commandment based system, kingdom of heaven, store up for the hereafter, and then read Paul. Read Paul and read the Quran. You will see, >> man, forget Paul. No, he is he is directly. >> We're going to talk about that later. >> He's directly gerain to this debate. >> Spoiling it for the people. >> Okay, dude. Go ahead and read it. then read your Quran and read Paul and see what strikes more chords with the Bible. Absolutely. Undoubtedly, the Quran does. There's no debate about that. >> So, it it seems to me that whatever agrees with Islam, you take and that's good. And then what when a verse where Jesus says something that proves Muhammad's a false prophet, you're like, "Oh, wait. No, that's but that's anonymous." So, here's my thing. How do you know that Jesus preached about the kingdom? >> How do I know that Jesus preached about the kingdom? The Quran tells me, and I have vestigial remnants of it in the Bible. Can you show me where the Quran mentions that Jesus preached about the kingdom of God? >> Well, God says he revealed to all the messengers the same message to worship him and to look forward to the hereafter. >> Not asked. Can you show me where it says that Jesus taught and preached about the kingdom of God, please? >> It doesn't say that specifically. It doesn't say that specifically. You're but but God does say by implication he revealed to all the prophets the same message. So the message of the Quran is the hereafter. So all the prophets had the same message. So that would imply Jesus Christ. >> Can you show me where the Quran says that the hereafter is the kingdom of Allah? >> I'm using that term because that's the term used in the gospel. >> Boom. >> Yes. Yes. >> So you're getting your theology from the gospel, but I thought it was anonymous. I thought we can't trust it. >> Can No, no, no, no. Can I tell you what is the kingdom of heaven? >> Don't ask me. >> No, I'm asking you. Yeah. Yeah. What is No, I want to know what you think. I I know what I'm talking about. What are you What are you talking about with the kingdom of heaven? Tell elite asking me what is the kingdom of God is a deflection. When I just quoted Jesus talking about the kingdom of God and it contradicted Islam and showed that Muhammad was a false prophet, you said, "Well, no, no, no. This is anonymous, so we can't trust it." So then I asked you, okay, where then are you getting your information that Jesus taught about the kingdom of God at all? You said the Quran, but then you acknowledge that it wasn't in the Quran once I pressed you. You said it's in the gospel, right? So, it's like yes and then no and then no and then yes and then yes and then no. What? >> Dude, dude, dude, dude. Okay, the Bible the the Bible itself, I'm not saying it's God forbid. I'm not saying it's total garbage. It's total unreliable. Remember the analogy I gave a drawing of a drawing of a drawing. So, in general, it is accurate. But in once like if you analyze a drawing in finer details, if I made a drawing of you, you would see, oh, wait, my beard doesn't look like that. My nose doesn't look like that. So once you start analyzing little little details then yeah there are starts to be discrepancies within the Bible. >> Am I reading the injil? >> No. >> Okay. >> According to the Quran the injil was something given to Jesus. >> Beautiful. What was that? >> It was a revelation. >> Yeah I know revelation. But what was that revelation? What was that? >> What do you mean? >> Okay. So you said >> it was a I I told you what it is. It's a revelation. >> You said it's a revelation given to Jesus. Right. >> Yes. That's >> was the Torah revelation given to Jesus. >> Uh Moses to >> Can you go to chapter 5? >> Go to I'm not sorry. Chapter 3 verse uh verse >> three or 30 >> three >> three. >> Sir Al Iran chapter 3 verse uh what's that verse man? Is it 40? >> And after we read this I'd like to ask you some questions. >> That's that's that's fair enough. I think try try 48 for me. >> 48. up. She thought I just >> might be wrong, though. Let's see. >> And she said, I'll just go back to verse 47. She said, "My Lord, how will I have a son when no mortal has touched me?" He said, "Thus is God. He creates what he wills, and when he decrees a matter, he but says to it, "Be thou." And it is. And he will teach him the book and the wisdom and the Torah and the >> That's 48, right? >> Uh 48. Yeah, >> man. I'm good. Okay. So, he's Can you read for 48 one more time? Sorry. >> And he will teach him the book and the wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel. Yeah. Would you agree that when Allah teaches someone, that's revelation? >> 100%. >> Okay. And it said that he will teach them the book. >> Yeah. >> Right. The wisdom, >> the Torah. >> Yeah. >> And the gospel. >> Torah and the gospel. Book wisdom. Yeah. >> So the Torah was a revelation that Jesus received from Allah. Right. >> The Torah was something that God taught him. >> Yes. >> So that means that the Torah is a revelation that he received from Allah, right? >> Yeah, I would say so. >> Okay. Is the Torah the Injil? >> Torah is not the >> What's the difference? The Torah is that which was originally revealed to Moses, but then people started and actually I have a perfect perfect example for this as well in your own New Testament. The Torah was that which was originally revealed by Moses, but by the time Jesus came, people started to forget what that was really about. So God directly taught him what that was about and he gave him the as well. >> Where in the Quran does it say that the Torah was revealed to Moses? >> Well, he's uh the Quran says that he's confirming that which is before him, Jesus. >> Yeah. Where does it say >> that which is between his hands? It Yeah, it doesn't say that explicitly. >> Thank you. So, how do you know that the Torah was revealed to Moses? >> Well, I the Quran only, >> right? So, so let's let's start adding together different verses here. So, the Quran says Moses was revealed a book the law and then it just called it the Kab. It calls it the book. >> So, was that the Torah? >> Right. Right. Assume I assume it's a Torah. Yeah. >> Why are you assuming that? You're Quran only. Don't assume nothing. cuz that seems to best fit the gap in knowledge right there. >> Based on what? >> Based on when So when Jesus is confirming that which is within his hands, right? What is the book which the entire children of Israel's religion was based on? >> That's the question. >> Yeah. >> What was it? >> It was the book of Moses. >> Where does it say that in the Quran? >> It doesn't say that explicitly in the Quran. >> Thank you. So why are you making that conclusion? Look, I'm not saying you're it's like this. Um an atheist says that evil exists, right? I would agree that with the atheist that evil exists. However, an atheist does not have a basis of why or what evil is. We do as theists. >> So, we can agree that evil exists, but we have a basis. They don't. So, I would ask the atheist, where do you get this from that evil exists? Where are you getting this basis of what evil is in the first place? Same here. I agree with you that the Torah was given to Moses, but you don't have a basis for that. What is your basis for that the Torah was given to Moses? >> Well, okay. So, I'm going off of So, again, when I told you the Bible has say the Bible, >> yeah, the Bible Yeah, the Bible is not perfect though. So, so here's here's the deal, man. Here's the deal. The Quran when it talks about confirming that which is before it. It is confirming a legacy of So, basically, it's saying, "Hey, Moses came to you. The books came to you. Jesus came to you." It's not that these guys were false. I But here is the final standard and criteria. >> Whoa. Where does it say that? >> Muheim. And it's the guardian. It's the standard >> guardian. Not standard and criteria over the previous years. >> The furan. God revealed to you the book so that the ch you may uh judge the children of Israel over that in which they differ. >> What else is called the furkan? Criter for means criterion in the Quran guys. What else is the forcon in the in the Quran? >> You're going to have to fill me in. >> Chapter 21 verse 48. Man, I'm I'm I'm the best Quran only in here. >> Chapter 21. What? >> Uh verse 48. >> 48. get the verse. >> And we gave Moses and Aaron the the let's see that word in Arabic. Yeah. Furkan. We gave him the furan and an illumination and a remembrance for those of prudent. >> So what else is the furan? The criterion >> the books. >> Which one? >> That which was given to Moses and Aaron >> which is >> which is presumably the Tawat. >> Okay. So according to the Quran presumably the Torah is the is the criterion as well. Right. >> The Tawat given to Moses was the criteria. not what men have added in. >> Okay, so the Torah is also the criteria. >> Wait, dude. Dude, I just want to quickly qualify this. >> We know your first five books today are not written by Moses. >> We know that. >> All right. >> There's multiple authors of those that pentatuk. >> Who wrote the Torah >> today? The first five. >> Who wrote the Torah? >> The original Tawat was given revealed by God to Moses. >> I didn't ask that. >> Written by God. >> Who wrote it? >> Which are we talking about? The >> Torah of Moses. The Torah of Moses was written by God. It was given by God. >> It was written by God. >> It was given and revealed by God. >> Okay. So you telling me that Mo Moses didn't write the first five books of the penetuk doesn't work against me. >> How's how come? >> Because you don't believe that either. You believe God wrote it. So we >> Yeah. It's original revelation of God. Yeah. So right right. So So what I'm Okay. What I'm talking about when the Quran refers to the Tawat and the Injil, it is referring to direct revelations. That's what it is talking about. what you have today are not direct revelations. >> Okay. >> It doesn't even m Okay. I I want to know from you. >> Wait. >> Do do you believe the first five books are written by Moses? >> Yes, I do. >> You do? >> Yeah, I do. >> All of them? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, okay. Wait. >> If I if if I were to find passages that contradict that, would that be an issue for you? >> No. No, it wouldn't. So, >> it wouldn't. Why? Why? Why? One second. We'll leave. One second. This is another deflection, bro. >> So, when you're talking about what the Torah is, you get it from my Bible. When you talk about what the kingdom of God is, you get it from my Bible. When you talk about Jesus preaching the gospel and preaching the kingdom, you get it from my Bible. You're Quran only >> and you're coming to my Bible. >> But wait, let me finish. Let me which is what you're supposed to do cuz the Quran tells you if you do not know, then go to the people of the reminder. And when you come to the people of the reminder, I'm here to remind you that Jesus said that all who believe in the sun and look to the sun will have eternal life and I will raise them up on the last day. If you come to the reminder, the reminder reminds you that Islam is false. >> Okay. So you're saying the Quran, you're going through with the Islamic dilemma. Quran confirms the previous scripture. >> I didn't want to go there, but >> Okay. So that that's that's the direct. So So So that that's the direction we're going, right? I'm I'm going to force you to admit the Islamic dilemma is no dilemma. I'm going to force it through your own Bible. >> I still want to know what the angel is. >> I'm going to answer your question right now. I want you to go to Matthew 5. >> Matthew 5. >> Matthew 5. Let me find the exact quotation for you. One moment, please. >> I did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. >> Uh Matthew 5. There's two verses I want you to see. I want you to read two. So, Matthew 5:17-18. I want you to read uh Matthew 23 1-3. Read both of those for me, please. >> Okay. Yes, sir. Let me just get there. >> Yep. >> Sorry, guys. Just bear with me. I'm a little nervous. Oh, lost connection. >> Did you actually lose? I did. I got it back. You got it. All right. All right. So, do not think that I came to abolish the law or the prophets. I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law until all is accomplished. Uh, whoever then anols one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. >> Okay, that's so that's the main point right there. So, can we at least agree in this passage Jesus affirmed the law here? >> Absolutely. >> Okay. Jesus affirmed the law. I want you to go as well to Matthew 23:es 1-3. >> Okay, man. I'm about to get cooked. Okay. Sorry, I'm in a hot spot, not Wi-Fi. So, all right. I'm here. 1-3 >> uh 1 to 23 1-3. Yeah. >> Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and his and to his disciples, and he saying, "I am God. Worship me." >> Matthew 23 1-3. >> Yes. >> Hold on. I I may have wrote down the wrong verse. Let me actually find >> I'm kidding, bro. I'll just mess with you. I'll just >> Okay. No, I Okay, I thought I screwed up there for a second. Oh my gosh. Okay, it says, "Then Jesus spoke to the crowds, >> okay, >> and to his disciples, saying, the scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses. Therefore, all that they tell you, do and keep, but do not do according to their deeds. For they say things and do not do them." Right. So Jesus, we've established here, he affirmed the law. You said yes. And he affirmed the authority of the scribes and Pharisees. They sit upon the seat of Moses. Don't do what they do, but do everything that they tell you. Okay. Yeah. According to the law. >> So So now, so how could Jesus both affirm the law then deny certain laws of the scribes and Pharisees? Because he says, "You follow the vain traditions of men, the washing of cups and whatnot." How could how could he affirm the scribes and Pharisees authority as the successors to Moses, exhorting his followers to obey everything that they say, but also contradict some of the things they say. So if Jesus is wrong, he's wrong. If he's right, he's wrong because he contradicts the very laws and scribes and Pharisees he's affirming. >> Yeah. So he doesn't say the scri- the law of the scribes and Pharisees. >> He says the law >> Let me finish. Okay. >> Okay. So the law is the law of Moses, right? >> That's just the law. Actually according according to the Jews the oral law these extra laws these are also what was mentioned an oral law >> he just says the law not one jot or >> t so what is the law according to Jesus >> the scribes and Pharisees sit upon the seat of Moses they carry his authority >> very good seat of Moses so the law of Moses correct >> they sit on his seat and they carry that authority do do everything that they say you're not answering >> do everything that they say >> let's get clarity for the audience >> so the law that Jesus refers to is the law of Moses right >> it's just the law he doesn't qualified which is the law of Moses. Correct. >> It is just the law at that time. All this stuff, all this stuff was just considered the law. Jesus, >> brother. >> No, it wasn't. Can you show me where he says that the traditions of the Pharisees are the law? >> He literally tells you to do everything that they say. >> According to what? >> According to Matthew, uh, Mark, what did we just read right now? Um, Matthew 2 1-3. >> All right. All right. So in Matthew, >> how can I just let me let me clearly see? Let me clearly see. You're not answering the question. >> How can Jesus affirm everything the scribes and but then also call them out? >> Where in Matthew 23 does he say that the traditions of the Pharisees are the law? >> He just says the law. >> I'll ask I'll ask it again. >> Let me just let me ask it this way. Does Jesus in Matthew 23 and this is another deflection from the topic, but I'm allowing it for now. Does Jesus in Matthew 23 say that the the tradition of the Pharisees is the law? >> He just says the law and not one jaw or tit or stroke. >> Is the answer no? >> He just says the law. >> He doesn't qualify. >> All right. So I'll let I'll show you where Jesus I'll show you where Jesus qualifies. In Luke 24 he says, "Now he said to them, these are my words which I spoke to you which while I was still with you that all things which are written about me in the law of Moses, >> did you hear that part?" Yeah. >> Law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled. So there are three categories of scripture. You have the law of Moses, you have the prophets, you have the psalms. >> So here we see what the law is. The law is the law of Moses. Which is why in Matthew 23 he says they sit in Moses's seat. So do what they say, not as they do. What are they saying? They're teaching the law of Moses. So they have to listen to when they teach the law of Moses. They have to abide by it. >> Okay? >> Right? So Jesus Jesus affirmed the law. And you know the oral law according to the Jews, the vast majority of them originated with Moses, right? It was a it was a revelation given to it was just the law. >> Yeah. >> Right. So when he's saying the law of Moses, that could very well include the oral law, too. >> So accord No, it doesn't. There's no way. >> How do you know? How do you know that? Because there's nothing in scripture about the oral law. You Yeah. The written law. Let me finish. Right. Let me finish. So when you are you you brought us to Matthew 5 where Jesus says he didn't come to abolish but to fulfill it. I just read you where he said he fulfilled the law in Luke 24. Now but you brought this as a good criteria because I like this. >> He says that whoever goes against the law that there be they'll be the least in the kingdom. Correct? >> Uh yes. Yes. Yes. >> So if anyone teaches that Jesus changed the law in in any way or taught that one of the laws is done away with they're a false prophet. Right. >> Anyone who uh Repeat that again for me, sorry. Anyone who teaches that the law is changed >> that uh uh to to to not do any one of the laws, >> then that person is a false messenger. Correct. >> Anyone who says that the law is a changed I don't believe that. No. >> Okay. So, I'll read it again cuz you brought this up. >> Yeah. >> He says, "I did not come to abolish the law." >> What does abolish mean? >> Uh means to do away with. >> Okay. But to fulfill, >> right? >> Yeah. >> So, he did not come to do away with any of the laws. And he said, "Not one dot will pass away of the law." Right? >> You're not coming to the main point I was asking, but you can go on. >> I I I I already did. >> No, no, no. I just I I want I want to know this. >> So, do you agree? No, bro. >> On what? Okay. Let me let me let me boil it right down here. On what? On what? On what author Please don't dodge what I'm asking. >> On what authority you You've been asking me tons of the questions. It's my turn to ask you some questions. asked me questions and I've when Jesus affirmed when Jesus affirmed the scribes and the Pharisees and they sit on the seat of and to do everything they say on what authority do you reject? >> You're deflecting >> what on what authority do you do you reject the rabbis? >> You're deflecting. >> On what authority do you reject the rabbis today? >> Okay. So, I'm going to go ahead and continue to ask you my question again to see if >> let's make a deal. If I answer your question, will you answer mine? >> Sure. >> Cool. >> All right. So according to Jesus, not one dot or tit will pass away from the law or be done away with. Correct? >> Yeah. >> So if someone comes and teaches that one of the laws is done is done away with any one of them. They're a false messenger. Right. >> If somebody comes and does away with any of the laws, I wouldn't say does away. Does away means to nullify and act like, okay, this is not law. No, there's different laws for different time periods and different different dispensations. So if someone comes and teaches that Jesus actually did come to change the law, >> are they in line with what Jesus said according to your verse or are they against him? >> According to this verse, a strict uh interpretation of this. Yeah, they would be against that. >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. >> All right. Yeah. So I need you to go to the Quran. Go to chapter 3 and then I'll deal with your whatever direction you want to go. >> Three. What verse? What verse? >> Go to chapter 3 verse uh 49. Actually, I think it's 50. It might be 50. I think it's 50. 350. >> 50. >> Yeah. Okay. >> And confirming what is before me of the Tawat and making lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. I have come to you with an ayat or a proof from your Lord. So, be in prudent fear of God and obey me. >> According to that verse, did it teach that Jesus came to change some of the law? According to that verse, Jesus came to uplift certain laws, >> which is a change, right? >> That would be a change. Yeah. >> According to the gospel, the part of the angel that you was using as authentic according to Jesus, did he come to change any of the laws? >> According to Jesus in the in the gospel >> in the gospel. >> Yeah. No. Yeah. According to that, according to that, then yeah, this is going against that. >> So therefore, Muhammad contradicts Jesus and and is not in continuity with Jesus and therefore is a false prophet. When I was quoting to you that verse, I wasn't quoting it as an authority. I was quoting it No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was I was quoting it to you to show a flaw in your for example, when you're when you're this is not about the debate is not about if there's contradictions in the Bible or a flaw in my theology. The debate is is Muhammad a true prophet. So, if you're irrelevant, then don't bring it. in this debate about the prophecy of Muhammad if he's true or not. You mentioned the Islamic dilemma arguments and related to it. So I'm dealing with that point just like when you when you yourself I mean you mentioned all the verses where the Quran is affirming the Tawatra affirming the angel. You mentioned all these verses. This is directly dilemma. So when I quot when you quote the Quran to me are you quoting it as an authority >> for you? >> For me right? So when brother the the debate >> so when I'm quoting the when I'm quoting the Bible to you when I'm quoting the Bible to you I'm quoting it as an authority for you >> to ask you to consider certain things. >> Do you have a microphone? >> Microphone. >> Can everybody hear James? >> Yes. >> What's the title of the debate? >> Sorry. One second. Just handling a logistical thing. >> It's okay. Sorry to distract you. I know we're supposed to a security thing or we're good. Everything's safe, but we're just stop. So, >> say it again. >> Muhammad, >> was Muhammad a true prophet? So, it's not Is the Bible contradictory? It's not. Wait, >> hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. You're talking like you're a stand-up comedian Christianity. You're just you're pandering to your audience here. You're breaking your agreement. You're breaking your agreement. Obviously, Prophet Muhammad's a true prophet. You're breaking your agreement. So, we just had an agreement. I answer I answer your question. You answer mine. I answered yours. I answer the question that you gave me. Now, you answer mine. On what authority and what reasoning do you deny the authority of the rabbis today when Jesus uh follow everything that they say and they sit on the seat of Moses? >> The Quran. >> The Quran. You just told me the Quran's on authority for you. I'm I'm an Remember I said I believe in the original Quran before I got tampered with. >> On what on what biblical basis do you retain the authority? >> Cuz that's what you believe. >> I also believe in the original Quran. The original Quran says Jesus is God and the scribes. >> You're not going to answer. You're going to turn this into like this joke from Okay. Okay. No. No. You're turning into a joke. >> I'm turning in one more time. Am I going to get a direct answer to this? On what authority and reasoning do you deny the authority of the rabbis today >> if they contradict Jesus? >> But hold on. Jesus affirmed them. >> Jesus affirmed them as long as they're in line with the law. >> No. >> So if they're do everything they say. >> Let me finish. >> Do everything they say. >> He literally just said, "Do what they say, not as they do." As they sit in the seat of Moses, which means as they're teaching the law of Moses, therefore follow what they say, right? But do not do what they do because they've preached, but they do not practice. And he literally said that they make up traditions and put these traditions of men uh above the word of God as if it's God's command. Wow. >> So Jesus condemned them. >> Wow. All praise be to God. God is truly amazing. God God is truly amazing. So the very thing you have been pretending there's an Islamic dilemma for years. You just showed me how there's no dilemma. I asked you. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. I just asked him how come he doesn't follow the rabbis. Is Jesus affirming everything that the rabbis and the Pharisees were saying in his day? You said no. He's only affirming what was revealed by God, what originates with Moses, not the man-made stuff. That is precisely the Islamic argument against you. >> Okay. >> You use the exact same. You've been pretending for years. You've been pretending for years now that oh my the Muslim argument doesn't make sense to me. Get it off your chest. How? Yeah. I'm going to get it off my chest 100%. You've been pretending for years now that the Muslim argument makes no sense. How can it confirm and contradict when you use that exact same reasoning with me right now to solve this Christian dilemma from Jesus? You use the exact same reasoning. So, you literally prove to the whole world you have no integrity as a man. You've been pretending to not understand the Islamic argument. >> Okay. >> But you just used the Islamic argument to me. >> Okay. Can I >> respond? >> Yeah, you can respond. >> All right. Thank you. >> All right. So, Willie, I'm about to show you something. Okay. >> Okay. >> I'm going to show you what is called a difference. In the Bible, in the verse that you just gave me, we have what is called, ladies and gentlemen, a qualifier. Everyone say qualifier. >> Qualifier. A qualifier is when something is emphasized specifically in a contextulation. So for example, a stipulation. Yes. >> So for example, Jesus says, "The Pharisees and the scribes sit in the seat of Moses. Therefore, do what they say, not as they do." >> Everything. >> So what is the stipulation? Them sitting in the seat of Moses, i.e. teaching the law. This is the stipulation. So we have where Jesus affirms their teaching of the law. but not everything they say that's outside of the law. What I want you to do for me, please habibi aki. What I would need you to do for me is show me where the Quran where al Quran show me one unambiguous verse, one unequivocal statement where the Quran from Allah subhana wa ta'ala says gives a stipulation believe in this part of the Quran of of the in Torah and don't believe in this part of the Torah and all right. Right. So the stipulation and the qualification, God says it acts as a control. We have given you this book to judge between the children of Israel over that in which they differed. So there's the stipulation. >> Oh, one one second. One second. Can you give me What verse are you quoting? >> Let me find it. >> You said that the Quran says that it acts as a control. >> A control. And also to confirm what? Sorry. To chew uh what the children of Israel differed on. >> All right. Showc Show that where it says that it's a control. One moment, please. >> How much time we have left, James, in the open dialogue? >> 8 minutes and 45 seconds. >> Man, I'mma miss you, man. Okay. Uh, go to uh, chapter 16 verse 6 in the Quran. >> Chapter 16 verse 6. >> Yes. >> Ayat 6. Chapter 16 16 verse 6. Yep. >> Okay. Uh it says, "And wherein is beauty for you when you bring them home and when you take them out of out to pasture?" >> Are you playing a joke with me? No, I'm serious. Okay, I I may actually have the wrong quotation. Give me one moment. Uh let me actually get the actual uh we have not revealed to you the book except sorry my mistake 164 >> 64 >> All right we get the verse 6 out chapter 16 verse 64 >> and you can start from verse 63 actually with some good context. >> All right. By Allah, we verily sent messengers unto the nations before thee, but the devil made their deeds fair seeming unto them. So he is their patron this day. Theirs will be a painful doom. >> Okay, so just to quickly qualify that. So we sent messengers before you. Obviously we are talking about the children of Israel and the prophets of the past. Can we agree on that? >> Yes. >> That's a scriptural community. Okay. And continue to verse 64. >> And we have revealed the scripture unto only that you may explain unto them where they defer and as guidance and a mercy for people who believe. >> Okay. So bringing this back to what we originally talking about. >> Where does it say control? >> So that's not that verse. I can give you that verse afterwards. The no stipulation. You are asking for a stipulation. Why? Where's the stipulation? Why? The stipulation is right there. The Quran is there to teach the children of Israel, the community before over that in which they differed. So Jews are saying there's no son of God. And then Christians are saying, "Yeah, there is a son of God." And all these differing views. It's to confirm that or sorry, to decide between that which they're differing. That's the stipulation. So confirmation plus stipulation. Just like what you said about Jesus, confirming the Pharisees, but also stipulation. >> Same exact logic. >> Let's read this. Let's read this carefully. >> Go through it. >> We have revealed the scripture unto you only that you may explain unto them that which they defer. The people, right? >> The scriptural communities. Verse 63. >> So the people So does it say where the scriptures defer or the people defer? >> The people defer for whatever reason. >> So all right. So, it doesn't say anything about the Quran being a control over the scriptures or saying what to believe in and what it confirms in the scriptures, but simply addressing what people say and what they have disagreements about among themselves. Correct. >> Just what they differ on for whatever reasons, whether textual differences or verbal differences. >> Just really quick, does this scripture say anything about scriptural differences? >> Okay, we can go to the another verse I was telling you about. Yes or no about this verse? >> Not specifically. So give me the verse I'm ask. >> Right. Right. So give me what I'm asking for. Where does the Quran say that it's one a control over the scriptures and in two that is confirming this part of the Torah and Gospel and not this part of the Torah and Gospel. >> One moment. One moment. One moment. Uh believe it's in chapter 5. Actually chapter 5 is uh perfectly relevant to talk about. Let's go to >> I agree. Chapter 5 is perfectly relevant. That's that's going to cut you, dude. No, that that it's it's so amazing. That verse completely blows out the Islamic dilemma. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Let's do it. >> Let's go there. >> Let's do it. Let's go. >> But I I just want to know again when Jesus says follow everything they say, on what basis do you deny the authority of the rabbis today? >> I already told you. >> Why? What? On what basis? >> You don't remember what I said? >> You said he was confirming that which was revealed by God to Moses, not the man-made stuff that >> Why did I say that? >> Right. cuz you qualified using a certain >> I didn't qualify it. Jesus did. Right? So now show me where the Quran qualifies. Stop. Brother, stop getting distracted. I gave you the qualifier in the scripture where Jesus gives a qualifier. >> Give me the qualifier in the Quran. >> Where the Quran gives a qualifier in which it's confirming and what it's not of the Torah go. >> Let's go through it. >> All right. >> Let's see. >> I want to go through the whole set. Let's start from uh verse 43. 543 and we'll keep going. So I >> verse by verse though. >> Yeah. Verse by verse and I'll comment along. Okay. So uh verse 43. >> And how come they come to thee for the uh judgment when they the Torah wherein is judgment of God then they turn away after that and those are not >> for the audience. Okay. Yeah. >> So guys the verse says the verse that he went to >> is chapter 5:43 in the Quran. >> I have more to read. >> I know but I got to break it down for them. >> I have to read. Okay. Okay. Okay. Fine. >> Okay. So chapter 5 verse 43. The Jews were coming to Muhammad for a judgment. And so the response the Quran gives is why do they come to you for judgment when they have the Torah >> in which Allah's judgment is in >> and even still they turn away. Keep going. >> That's insane. That's a complete misinterpretation. But we'll continue on. Okay. I I I'll deal with you. No, no. I I I'll I'll deal I'll deal with you. Anyways, I want to get to this. Okay. So, did I quote the verse? >> You quoted the verse. You're giving it a spin. You're giving it You're giving it a spin. You're giving it a spin. You're giving it a spin. Okay. Anyways, verse 44. So, this is where things blow out for the Islamic. >> Verse 44. >> Verse 44. And we sent down the Torah wherein is a guidance and light. The prophets who submitted, "Judge thereby those who hold to Judaism as did the rabbis and the religious scholars with what they were given charge of the writ of God, and were there two witnesses." So, fear not mankind, but fear me and sell not my proofs at a cheap price. And notice in this Islamic dilemma verse right here, it keeps qualifying. Whoso judges not by what God has sent down, it is they who are the disbeliever. So God keeps saying it over and over. So there are people out there who are judging by what God has not sent down. >> Wait, wait, specifically, was the Torah sent down by Allah? >> The Torah was sent down by God. >> So the only stipulation we have, y'all, is wait, let me I'm going to give it to you. I promise. >> Okay. >> So the stipulation that we have, ladies and gentlemen, is believe and follow what Allah has sent down, i.e. the Torah, and don't follow what he has not sent down. That's the stipulation that we have so far. So we're good right now. >> Okay. So and then we ascribe to them therein a life for life, an eye for an eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth in Torah. Okay? And for wounds just for quiet. Where is that? >> And then again, and then again, and who so judges not by what God has sent down, it is they are who are the wrongdoers. Again, >> so the Torah sent down. So if they don't follow the Torah, >> so God, so God is God is telling us there are people who were judging by what God had not sent down. Right. >> Right. >> So wait, is what? Let me ask you this. >> Right. In the scriptural corpus, people were judging by what God had not sent down. >> I got you. So according to this, it's making a difference between the Torah and what was not sent down. Correct? >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> So therefore, and then it even quotes the Torah right there where it says eye for an eye, life for life. Right? So it quotes Exodus. >> Okay. So it's talking about my Torah and I have to judge by my Torah which was sent down by Allah and avoid what wasn't sent down, i.e. traditions of the Pharisees. Not it's not it's not at all giving a full pass to all your anonymous books. So all I know is that that aspect okay that part you know eye for an eye tooth for tooth God is confirming it. Okay look my question is where in regards to my books does it differentiate from what is sent down from law and what is not sent down from a law. >> We're gonna get to it right now. >> I'm hoping we only got what four minutes now. >> All right. Okay. Okay. Keep going. We have four minutes. >> We have about 10 seconds of the order. >> Oh shoot. Shoot, man. Come on. Come on. Okay. All right. I just so to summarize. All right. >> This might be a time to wrap up. I If you want to summarize really quick, give you a quick summary, but then we do have to wrap up. >> Okay. Yeah. So, let the people of the gospel judge by what God has sent down therein. And who so judges again, not by what God has sent down, it is they who are the perfidious. And then finally, verse 48, >> we sent down the Torah. Whoever judges by what God has not sent down are bad. We sent the gospel. Whoever judges by what God has not sent down, they're doing bad. Now, we sent down to you the book with the truth. confirming what is before it of the book and as a control over it. So judge between them by what God has sent down and follow not their vain desires away from what has come to thee of the truth. It's clear there is no Islamic dilemma there. We do I do have to wrap us up for the Q&A. Don't worry, these gentlemen will be engaging again in dialogue later today. So I but do please give a round of applause because that was amazing. So before we jump into the Q&A, do want to give a huge thank you to our sponsors including Mainfirst Project, ROAR, Uncensored America, and Apologetics Arc who all believe in Fair Debates. We appreciate them very much as they make these events possible. And we are going to jump into this Q&A. If you can line up on the left side of this middle aisle, we'll jump right into it. All right, we're ready for you. >> Somebody ask about 548, please. >> Hey, how you doing? >> Hey, good. You got a cross on your shirt, so I'm ready for this one. >> That's right. That's right. Uh, so for Wii, uh, >> you say that Muhammad was a prophet. >> Yes. >> And you say that one of the criterias to understand this is him being in line with the previous messages. >> So, yes. My question for you is first John 2 verse 22 I think draws a clear line >> and boundary. >> Okay. >> It says whoever denies the father and the son the Bible says this is the spirit of the antichrist. Now my question for you is did Muhammad recognize the father and the son in this context? >> Did God recognize the father and son in this context? >> Did Muhammad >> Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. >> Right. Right. So it say whoever denies the father and the son >> whoever denies the father >> the bible says this is the spirit of the antichrist first John uh 2:22 >> so I'm asking you is did Muhammad recognize the father and the son in this context >> in that way no the son of god >> he did not recognize that the Quran obviously denies that the the son in the sense that you're using it in first John is using it as hey this is the guy who's going to be the only means to salvation yeah it denies that >> but it but the verse say whoever denies the father and the son. This is the spirit of the antichrist. Muhammad >> according to the Quran denies the father and the son. >> Yeah, he denies that. Yeah. So according to first John that the Quran goes against that. First John is not scripture. >> Yeah. >> He's a prophet and he's a and he's a apostle. So >> just the previous message you said that was the criteria. Quickly quickly to respond to your point again when you read your Bible to cover cover to cover leave out Paul, leave out the epistles. Just focus on Jesus and Moses. You will see the main themes emphasized in Jesus and Moses with contradiction. It does not consistent. Those main themes that occur the most are the main themes of the Quran. >> I got you. And the last thing I'm going to say is you said that the Bible is a picture of a picture of a picture. >> Yes. >> A drawing of a drawing of a drawing. >> A drawing of a picture of of a drawing of a picture. So what is the Quran then? Because that is what you we call a reccon. So that would be of the Bible. So that's a picture of a picture of a >> picture of a drawing of a picture. Right. >> Drawing of a drawing of a drawing. Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. The Quran is the original revelation. It's the photograph of that revelation. >> We have to we'll jump to the next person ready for you. And then if you can come up here just so you're in the camera view. >> Where? Okay. You guys were talking about chapter 5 verse 48. Where was that word control? >> If you'd like to. Yeah. >> You're saying to the last question or this question? Okay. >> Guardian. Guardian >> followups and just >> Yeah. So the word Yeah. The translation I was reading says control. Really? The what's it called? The the ver the word in Arabic is guardian. >> Guardian control. I was just reading the translation in front of me. It's guardian. Yeah. So what is a guardian? A guardian is one that safeguards and keeps everything locked in while keeping out interpolations, corruptions. That's what a guardian is. A guardian means something that is safeguarding from something bad that's coming in. So that's what the Quran is. So, can you be a guardian of something without controlling it? In the same way that the Secret Service guards the president, but they don't control him. >> Can you be a guardian of something and control it >> and not control it? >> The guardian is the control. >> A guardian is a protector. Can you protect something and not control it? >> No. In order to properly guard something, you have to control it. >> Okay. So, >> so if I like if I want to protect my son from going out on the streets and getting hit by a car, I have to be like, "Hey, get out of the street." I got to control him. I got to restrain him if he wants to walk out there. A guardian. >> The Secret Service can guard the president. Are they in authority over him? >> They are also controlling where he goes. >> Authority over him. >> Do they control where he goes or do they protect him when he gets there? >> Right. So, when the president is walking around, he doesn't just walk and leave when he wants. He can only leave when his guards are there, when they're ready. So in some sense they are restricting his timing and movements. >> So but he's in control of it, right? And they protect him where he goes. >> Guardianship and control have a related relationship. >> All right. So So this is where we got here guys. We he said that it was control in the Quran and we see that that actually wasn't the case. The word is actually guardian. And so this gives a kind of false idea that the Quran controls what what is in the scriptures, controls what's true in them and what isn't. When the verse actually didn't say that it protects them, it protects them from what the Quran says elsewhere to that people distort the book with their tongues. They lie about it and misrepresent it. And so it also says in the verses prior it says judge by the gospel, judge by the Torah. Um because this is what Allah has revealed, right? Judge by what Allah has revealed in these books. So it's pointing people back to these books. So this is how it's guarding it by a affirming its truth, affirming its authority, and disregarding the distortion by people's misinterpretations. That's how it's a protector and guardian. It doesn't control. >> Not just that. Not just that. Woe to those who write the book with their own hands and claim it is from God when it is not. >> I guess the Quran's corrupted because they wrote it with their own hands. >> The Quran says so. The the the Hey, the distortions were not just verbal. They were written. Woe to the >> where it says that >> woe upon those who write the book with their own hands and claim it's from God when it's not written. >> We got to go to the next person. >> Yeah. How's it going? I want to ask you. I heard you say that the Quran speaks of a coming messenger prophet in the Old and New Testament. Right. You remember that? >> Did I say the Quran speaks of a coming messenger and prophet in the Old Testament? >> In the Old and New Testament from Quran 7 verse 157 that they're coming. >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, >> I want to ask you how is that restricted to only Muhammad being the unlettered messenger in Quran 7 if the same typology is applied to Peter? Because in Isaiah 22:22 says, "Eliakim is given the keys to the house of David with authority to open and close. And the same is ascribed to Peter by Christ in Matthew 16:1 17 to20 with the keys to the kingdom of heaven, authority to bind and loose. And his name is changed describing divine prerogative like with Isaac and all these guys getting their name changed." And he is also uneducated and unlettered according to Acts for uh excuse me 4:13. and he had scribes according to 1 Peter chapter 5 vers 12. >> Okay, you quoted quite a few verses. So what's like the main thing you're trying to derive from that >> is how can Muhammad be the only one that fulfills this prophecy if the same thing is ascribed to Peter? >> That's a really good question. So when I read these prophecies in the Bible in the Old Testament that forecast the coming of like a man of God, I know these prophecies, they're very very vague and everybody tries to take them and put them in their pockets. Jews take them, that's our future Messiah. Christians take him. This is talking about Jesus. And then Muslims like to take it and say this is talking about Muhammad, right? So let me try to give this a framework. So let's say I'm a Jew living in 7th century Arabia. There's all these scattered vague prophecies of another man coming and I'm hearing all these books everywhere talking about God, Yahweh, the law, Moses, this and that. But then I'm hearing contradictions here and there. We're talking about a son of God. We're talking about a trinity. Hold on. I never heard about this in Moses. And then this guy comes and he confirms for me all the main things that I've been hearing mostly throughout my entire life. One God, one message, one truth, kingdom of heaven. And I'll be like, "Yeah, that's a prophet. That's the guy that fulfills all those prophecies that I've heard of." >> How can that be? Sorry, I got to go. >> Okay. Thank you. >> You can ask me afterwards if you want. Yeah, you can come to me. >> I just kind of wanted a clarification. So, do you believe um Allah created the heavens and the earth? So, did he exist before space? >> I don't see space as something that exists. It's it's not space is an operation. It's simply a measurement of something. So, there's 5 cm between this phone and this microphone stand. I don't take a metaphysical definition of space. >> Okay. So, so you do believe he's spatial. >> Yeah, I believe he has a literal direction. God exists. He's up there. >> Okay. So, he didn't create space, but he occupies space. >> Space is not something to be created. It's simply a measurement. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So, you're you're assuming this like Sir Isaac Newton metaphysic of space and time and I don't believe in that. None of that stuff. >> And you believe he's physical? >> 100%. >> Okay. >> No, let me let me quickly qualify that. When I say God is physical, I'm not saying God forbid he's like a really really big human. No, I'm saying so the example I like to give is this. So, let's say I were to create a little world in here in my digital uh what's it called? My my laptop. I'm a physical being who created that world. Those little beings in that 2D world, they can't fully comprehend me. I'm a 3D being, but it doesn't mean I'm not physical. It's the same thing with God. God created this world. We cannot fully fathom and comprehend him, but doesn't mean he's not physical. We just can't fathom what he's really like, his form. >> Okay. So, in chapter 42:11, there's nothing unlike unto Allah, right? >> Yeah. >> So, I feel like I'm spatial and I'm physical. So >> I feel like I'm like Allah, >> right? >> How would you differentiate that? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so when the Quran says that there's none like Allah, it's not saying he's totally other out there because God is kind. Humans can be kind. God is merciful. Humans can be merciful. It's saying to the degree and the scope. So I can be merciful, but it's not like God's mercy. I can be I can have power. I can, you know, probably break this table with my hand, but I cannot have power like God. So it's talking about degree and scope, not that he's totally other and aphatic. Okay. Uh you talk about continuity being crucial. Uh um a key and a key theme of the Old Testament uh is the coming Messiah. Isaiah 53 talks about Jesus being pierced for our transgressions. The Lord laying on him the iniquity of us all and the Lord making his life an offering for sin. Christians have always agreed this is a crucial crucial text about the Messiah. So but Islam denies Jesus' death by crucifixion atonement for sins. How so? How can you say there's any continuity at all if it's denying something so crucial? >> Right? So that passage right there in Isaiah 53 which doesn't mention the Messiah explicitly. It's just Christians who say it's the Messiah. That passage is one of those passages. It doesn't fit with the rest of it. This idea that a human being is going to be tortured for my sins. Again, the Bible doesn't give a consistent message. I'm saying the things that you most often read of in the Bible, those are going to line up with the Quran. But the little hiccups here and there, those are the ones that obviously contradict the Quran. So that's my point. The main themes of the Bible are picked up on by the Quran, not the hiccups. >> Okay. Well, I'm just saying if you're saying continuity, it's important to recognize Christians have always seen this as extremely central. >> Isaiah 53. So you just break any continuity and you break the continuity the Old and New Testament have with each other. >> Right. They don't have continuity with each other. Old and New Testament. >> Can I say something, James? >> Sure. So basically what Wed is saying is that there is continuity and there's no continuity at the same time. Um and the continuity is in the parts that he likes and then the non-ontinuity is in the parts that show Islam as a false religion. >> The continuity is in the most reoccurring themes. >> The most reoccurring theme is that Jesus is the son of God. >> That is not the most reoccurring theme throughout the Bible. No. No. No. >> All right. What we're going to do is we will do an extended Q&A when these gentlemen meet again this afternoon. So, I promise to get to your questions, but we do have to wrap up the Q&A. 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