German Socialists Win Mamdani-Style Victory In Berlin

Good evening. Welcome to Navara Live. Coming up tonight, Dinka have won a major election, opening a path to the Berlin Morality for Germany's leftmost party. Specialist courts which will prioritize rape cases are set to be rolled out in England and Wales. Fears are rising that war could return to Yemen. And Ed Sheeran has apologized for dropping pro Palestine rapper McLemore from his tour. My name is Steven Methan and tonight I'm joined by Harriet Williamson. It's been a little while. The queen of scoops has not been on the show for for a hot minute. How have you been? >> I've been good, thank you. I've been very much, you know, trying to devote my time to the scoops. I don't >> Hanging out the exclusives. >> Trying me. I don't get to do this very often, but I am unccaged, unleashed, and so happy to be on Navara Live tonight. >> Very happy to have you, too, Harriet. Now, if you'd like to support our work, you can sign up at navardia.com/support. You can also listen, as always, to the show on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And please, if you haven't done so already, like the video, subscribe to the channel, and don't forget to let us know what you think in the comments below. Germany's most leftwing party, Dinka, have won a major election this weekend in the country's capital, Berlin. There were celebrations as the result was announced in the Berlin state elections on Sunday night, where Dinka took 26% of the vote. That now makes it the largest party in the state parliament and marks its best result in an election since the party was founded in 2007. The campaign was led by LF Eelp, a charismatic human rights lawyer of Turkish heritage who constantly wore a necklace reading mitadel or rent cap in English ahead of the city's vote. She now stands a good chance of becoming Berlin's next mayor and the first socialist to run the city since the fall of the Berlin wall in 1990. As with her necklace, rent was very much front and center of of her Alps and Dinka's Berlin campaign. And no wonder, since 2016, Berlin's rents have increased by a whopping 70%. Over the same period, London rents were said to have gone up by about 40%, though that was from a much higher starting point. Housing affordability has long been an issue in the city with critics blaming it for a 5% drop in the birth rate last year. A growing number of people leaving the capital and for plunging around 10% of the population into rent poverty, meaning they live in less than half of the per capita average for living space. So, they're cramped. Renters also make up 87% of the city's inhabitants with over half of those in private rents. And it's private mega landlords that have turned Berlin's rental market into one of the most overheated in Europe, buying up and building massive numbers of small flats that are then let furnished temporary accommodation, allowing them to bypass Germany's somewhat strict laws around long-term rents. That all came to a head in 2021. Over a million Berliners voted in a non-binding referendum to introduce laws allowing the city to take flats from mega landlords into state control with 56% of them backing the proposal and just under 40% against. In late 2025, that initiative came closer to reality when a law described as legally coherent and procedurally actionable was drafted by campaigners offering to pay between 40 and 60% of market value for flats taken out of corporate control. In their campaign, Delinka as well as the Greens promised to drive that bill onto the statute books with the aim of socializing 220,000 properties in the city. Also promised were rent caps for those in social housing, a clampdown on illegal rents, and pursuing rebates from landlords who have overcharged their tenants. What's not to like? The policies proved pretty popular, as you'd expect. Delinka in pink won over a quarter of the city's vote. The center-right Christian Democrats in black, who previously ran the city in coalition with the center-left social democrats in red, both saw their vote share fall dramatically, knocking them into second and fifth place, respectively. Meanwhile, the farright alternative for Deutseland grew their vote to win third place. So, not all good news. Questions remain around whether Delinka will be able to form a governing coalition in the city. Delinka and the Greens don't have enough seats together to command a majority. Their most likely partners are the Social Democrats, though the party's leader in Berlin has said they won't support the expropriation law and Delinka have said they won't govern with anyone who refuses to back it. I'm joined now by James Jackson, an independent journalist in Germany and host of the Mad in Germany podcast. >> Thanks for having me. >> This win uh from the Linka seems like a like a very very big deal to me. But but am I overdoing it? >> I think it is a big deal. I think the fact that um the Berlin linker left party have overtaken the SPD in the Greens to become the biggest party in the country uh sorry in the city in the state is quite a big deal. Uh as you mentioned it's 25% of the vote so it's not mandi or orad or whatever numbers to put it that way. Um it is a significant victory that might have significant consequences for the city at least for you have to remember Berlin despite its kind of reputation as this progressive socialist utopia has actually been governed by a CDU mayor for the last so that's the conservative Christian democrats for the last three years. So um the linker have shown that the Mandani playbook focusing on affordability on housing with a kind of multicultural twist is enough to win outside of New York. Uh and of course Arral is the first mayor with an immigrant background and the first Turkish uh second actually Turkish leader of a state in in Germany with a person with a Turkish background but very different from the first one who was also in elected earlier this year. >> Yeah. I was going to ask you to tell us a little bit more about erp um like you know what is she like what kind of leader would she make if she became the mayor and how likely is it that she's going to become the mayor? >> I think it's quite likely that she will be mayor but it's it's not by no means straightforward. So as British viewers will be familiar with the Corbyn playbook of accusing the party and the leader um in in this case very much the party of anti-semitism due to links with Palestine activists. Uh we've really seen the German press going into overload on this. I think actually um possibly even more extreme than the British press during the Corbyn years accused saying that Hamas have won in Berlin. Uh now Ara herself is hardly a pro Palestine figure. She was one of the latest in Germany to describe what happened in Gaza as a genocide. Um but she is has been described as you know she's not Mandani. She's a German lawyer at the end of the day. She's a, you know, a a a jurist. She studied law. She's worked with the Linka. She's not from the party's more radical left. She's um very much from the center of the party. Uh she has enough charisma to bring both sides together. There are figures on the left of the party who've seen her as too consiliatory towards the right-wing press and particularly around this question of accusations of anti-semitism based mostly on a single line from a rap lyric, a Nok party. No, of course being the most Arab and one of the most left-wing parts of Berlin. >> I mean, I'm not really quite sure I understand how like the legal process works. I think they're trying to push this law that they've drafted to another referendum in 2027 and then that will seal it, although there might be issues with the constitution or, you know, issues with the federal government. But how likely is it to happen? How likely is Delinka in this um parliamentary term uh going to is it that they're going to be expropriating and reationalizing um p private housing from from corporate landlords and what are the hurdles ahead? >> I think it's quite likely. Um I think that's there will be issues and barriers to it. As you mentioned the SPD's leader um or candidate for mayor has kind of tried to rule it out but they had a shocking result. So I don't think they'll have uh the power to block it in coalition negotiations. It is a huge question. If they do manage to do that, it will be one of the largest expropriations in history and one of the first ones in Germany from the left. Of course, a lot of people have questioned the legality, but it's actually the right to expropriate is in the German constitution. It's used quite frequently by the right-wing uh the centrist governments, but to expropriate land uh for motorways. So, you know, forced forced purchase, I think it would be called in the UK. And so, it's quite possible, but it will be and they have a strong mandate for it because their their election campaign was really razor focused on rental politics, expropriation, housing, as you mentioned in your intro. So, it would be pretty hard for the Greens and the SPD to say there's no mandate for it. Now, the SPD's party uh in Berlin have actually voted for it before. There will of course be um legal challenges to it. So the rental the meet and decal necklace that Errol has been wearing that was actually overturned uh or a similar mechanism was overturned by the constitutional court. So uh it's not going to be an easy road ahead but I think the road is getting closer to expropriation. >> Yeah I think I remember that. That was quite a bad case wasn't it? because they had the rent cap and then it was overturned and then lots of tenants were left with aras that they then had to pay to the landlord. Is that right? >> In some cases, yes, absolutely. And also it just showed that rent politics wasn't that easy in Germany. It's not just about winning in the election, it's also about how to get it through the court. But with expropriation, there has been an expert commission that said it is actually one of the best ways of doing it and it is legal. uh and that was an expert commission which was filled with kind of SPD appointed people. So not natural expropriators to put it uh to coin a phrase. >> I want to ask you about the um Mamani connection. Um so obviously we know that delegation from from Dinka went to New York to meet with Mdani's people ahead of this election. Um I um I interviewed um the the linka co-leader invner um in like just after the federal elections last year and it was clear then that they were already doing some of the things that they've done now they were already focused on the cost of living. They were already doing like a big door knockocking game. What do you think they might have gained from Mandani's success aside from confidence perhaps um on on that visit? >> Exactly. I think it Mandani put a bit of wind in their sales. I don't think it's led to any change in strategy um significantly, but I think style perhaps more than form has been uh changed here because they've, you know, upped their social media game. Uh they've tried, you know, they've been doing kind of front-facing camera videos in multiple languages, different candidates, one of whom did Arabic uh and triggered a lot of the German press and then put one out shortly after in Hebrew just to confuse them a little bit more. that was a linker candidate in vetting because there is actually quite a lot of Israelis in in Berlin and leftwing ones at that and uh so ultimately I think Mamani it gave the center left and the left uh a bit of confidence throughout the world uh and it taught them maybe to focus on uh affordability and housing more than potentially identity based issues. So Era is, you know, a groundbreaker in the sense of having a migrant background, the first mayor of Berlin and what first candidate from a major party to have had uh immigrant roots. But they didn't put that front and center. There was no I'm with her uh campaign or you know she can do it. It was very much uh make Berlin affordable. And I think uh that focus on affordability is a useful counterbalance. And we can look at a candidate like Mamani who no one's accusing of uh being centrist and say that actually we've achieved quite a lot just with this focus on breadandbut politics uh sometimes known as sewer socialism. Let's hope they'll do that. Although I I think um Mandani part of part of his success in governing has been going outside of typical left-wing uh leftwing ideas cutting red tape. Delinka haven't pushed towards that and they also don't have the support necessarily of you know as much support from the pro Palestine movement they have been a lot more reserved on this question. >> So I want to go to um another election that took place uh in Germany on Sunday this time in the northeastern state of Meckllinburgg western Pomerania and the there the results panned uh you know painted an increasingly familiar um picture. So the the RFD the alternative for de for Deutseland grew its result by an enormous 21% taking almost 40% of all votes. Meanwhile the social democrats came a close second but the Christian democrat democrats the conservatives the CDU had a complete disaster with the vote share so low that they won't have a single seat in the state parliament I believe. Now that's the largest party in the federal government. The party of current chancellor Framez and former Chancellor Angela Merkel who led Germany for 16 years and it comes on the back of a similar disaster in Saxi Saxony Anhal two weeks ago as well as a kicking from Dinka in Berlin last night. What is the CDU getting wrong and and can can MED survive it? >> I think Mertz was sort of a victim of circumstance in this election. I mean the CDU is getting a lot a lot wrong clearly and you can ask the voters and they'll tell you what. Um number one uh among the issues is Fredick Matz himself. Uh he does not have the right style to be chancellor. He's kind of grumpy. He says a lot of uh some you know he's quite he's he's spontaneous. He improvises and he's not very good at it. Um he promised when he became chancellor to half the AfD and uh so that was when he became party leader sorry to half the AFD by adopting more of a right-wing stance on issues like migration. And since then the AfD have doubled. um migration has dropped but that hasn't stopped the AFD's rise. So it's uh a challenge to those who think we just need to copy the right to stop the right uh the far right in this instance. And uh the other thing is not just his personality but his politics. his politics have been you know to cut Germany's social spending to cut pensions to change uh Germany's quite hard fought and quite treasured rights uh for health care um ending for example the right to call in sick uh which was brought in I believe by the last government but uh changed things significantly since co uh he also is pushing back the age of retirement you know Germany's an old country that's not something that's going to be popular with voters. Uh, of course he's listening to pro business investors and um, which is where his background is. He was on the advisory board of Black Rockck. He was a corporate lawyer and they say this is these are the reforms that Germany needs. Uh, but I don't think the Germans are ready for those reforms and if they were going to be brought in, it would have to be by a chancellor far more popular than Friedick Mats. Um, I think what we've seen that's different in Meckllinburgg Western Pomerania is that the SPD did very well there. uh you can't say that in many of the other other elections they've been they led a kind of anti- AFD campaign where they were trying to collect all of the anti-AFD vote v votes with their quite popular quite reasonably charismatic candidate Manuelig who said she's the fraan blow which means the woman against the blue now I when I heard that I did think to myself I'm not sure it's going to work because I don't believe that you can beat the AFD by opposing the AFD and I think we have seen that in this case they did well and they they went from I think 16 points behind the AFD to just a couple of points and in some polls they were ahead but on on the night they were behind. The AFD won despite not having a particularly good candidate or campaign in that region they won because a lot of voters think especially in Eastern Germany think the AFD is going to give two fingers up to the establishment and maybe solve our problems or maybe just an expression of rage. >> James Jackson, thanks very much for joining me. >> Thanks for having me. Harriet. Uh very interesting set of elections in one single weekend in Germany. And I mean obviously the far right there is far stronger uh than it is is here. It's like it is the most popular party in the polls in in Germany. And the only thing that keeps them out of power most of the time in the coalition governments that they have is that there's a firewall which means that other parties won't won't work work with them. But you know we've also seen this big victory. You know looking ahead bi-election in in a city um constituency coming up. Um it's where you know I guess you might think that Labor is something like the SPD but maybe not quite because you've got Andy Bernham who is sort of doing things slightly differently. Are there any lessons to be learned from from this set of results um for our politicians? >> In terms of lessons for British politicians here, I think what I'd say is that history isn't going to insulate us from the rise of the far right. If it's not doing so in Germany with their Nazi history, it's certainly not going to do it here. And I think that centrist British politicians need to look at the rise of of parties like alternative for Deutseland and realize that policies that pander to anti-immigration sentiments like Shabban Mammud's immigration reforms which I believe Bernham is still saying that he's sticking with um they won't stop voters from choosing the full fat version with reform. Um, I think that the German those two very interesting German elections over the weekend are a real sign that the center is unraveling in ger in Germany just like it is here. Um, and it it really still can here. Andy Bernham's takeover of the Labour party might have slowed things significantly. Um, but there are serious lessons to be learned from the Star years and one of those is that if you treat a large part of your voter base with contempt, they will just leave. Um I I do see that the German chancellor in some ways as a kind of Kissed Armor figure. He's a poor communicator. He's desperately unpopular, also a former lawyer. Um he's and he's he's really maybe this is not quite as um consistent with Starmmer, but I I see him as a very like patronizing anti-worker figure, like pushing these really unhelpful anti-worker misdirection policies like the um not allowing German workers to take a single sick day without getting a doctor's note first. And they can't even ring up for a doctor's note. They have to get an appointment like this. I think that's really really terrible for people who who need to take a day off sick. And the point that James made about these being really hard fought rights for German workers, uh, that's not only unpopular, but like undoing progress throughout history. >> What an insane way to just signal that you stand with the corporate class who think workers are lazy, work shy, etc. Saying, >> well, he said that Germans should work longer hours. This is um as James said, this is someone who was on the um advisory board of of Black Rockck. >> Just before he unceremoniously left 10 Downing Street, Kiss Star's government had tried to use the backlog of rape and sex offense cases as a justification for then Justice Secretary David Lami's controversial plans to scrap jury trials. Fresh Prime Minister Andy Bernham is taking a different approach. He wants to introduce specialist courtrooms for rape and other serious sex offense cases across England and Wales. Now, the move is designed to encourage more survivors of those crimes to come forward. Only 3% of rape offenses led to prosecutions uh in the year ending March 2024. Only a six of rape and attempted rape victims reported their assault to the police between 2017 and 2020. and less than 3% of rape offenses recorded by police led to prosecutions in the year ending March 2024. While only a six of rape and attempted rape victims reported their assault to the police between 2017 and 2020, according to an ONS study, Bernham described the rape conviction rate as shameful, adding this, "These changes are long overdue and will make a significant difference, but focusing on prosecution alone will not be enough. So, as well as ensuring victims get justice, we will step up action to prevent these horrific crimes from happening in the first place. Separate from the courtroom funding, the government announced 43 million pounds to support rape and sexual assault survivors with counseling, therapy, outreach, and group activities. A rape justice task force will also be set up to tackle the rising rate of postponed rape trials. Former Justice Secretary David Lammy announced plans earlier this year to scrap jury trials for all but the most serious offenses in a bid to to ease exactly that huge backlog of cases currently slowing down the justice system. That move prompted Labour MP Charlotte Nichols to wave her right to anonymity as a survivor of rape to speak out against the proposal. She told the Commons this in March. spoken before in this place about having PTSD as the result of being the victim of a crime, but I have never specified the nature of that crime. And in doing so, I'm aware that I am waving my right to anonymity and the personal consequences that come along with that. I care profoundly about rape victims facing intolerable delays for their day in court. I know only too well what that feels like. As after being raped at an event that I attended in my capacity as a member of parliament, I waited 1,088 days to go to court. And the government's framing and narrative has been to pit survivors and defendants against each other in a way I think is deeply damaging. >> We have been told that if we have concerns about this bill, it is because we have not been raped or because we don't care enough for rape victims. The opposite is true in my case. It is because I have been raped that I'm as passionate as I am about what it means for a justice system to be truly victim focused. It is because I have endured every indignity that our broken criminal justice system could meet out that I care what kind of reform will actually deliver justice for survivors and victims of crime. >> Very powerful intervention there in the in the House of Parliament. The Conservative shadow justice secretary Nick Timothy said tackling delays in rape trials was long overdue. But he also accused Labour of using the court's backlog to remove the historic right to a child by jury, asking this. If resources can be found to accelerate rape trials, why are they persisting in their attack on this ancient right to jury trials? The Telegraph reported last week that Bernham is likely to ax Lammy and Star's plans for jury trials to be gotten rid of for everything but the most serious offenses. However, the paper also reported that the prime minister is likely to continue with the effort to remove the historic right of defendants to opt for a jury trial in a c in a crown court. The move would cover cover what's called either way cases like theft and drug offenses which can be tried in the magistrate or crown court. So the the the the person charged can decide whether they want to be seen by a magistrate or whether they want to appear in front of a jury of their peers. That might be something that goes. Earlier this year, Caroline Goodwin Casey, the leader of the Northeastern Circuit, told MPs that if they were serious about clearing the case backlog, the the sexual assault and rape case backlog, scrapping jury trials was completely wrong-headed. >> Now, what I can point to, and if I could just finish with this on this particular point, are courts where they have taken over, please, where they have been able to open up another court and they brought in 300 extra cases, which is really important. 80 of those as Raso and the example I'm going to give you on my circuit particularly you know at the coal phase is T-side Newcastle's also been able in the last six months to open up one more case and the reality is all their class two cases which are these very serious cases dealing with sexual offenses are now listed within their time limits so if you want to see if there is a change it's happening now so you've just got to let us do it which I accept may I make this very clear I do acknowledge that you've finally lifted up the cat on the seating days but we need it consistently. So all of these you can you can twist all these figures around however you want to, but you've got to let us try. >> Bernham's government appears to have listened to Goodwin's advice. Charlotte Nichols responded to the government's move today by saying this. I'm proud that substantive meaningful change has come from waving my anonymity to speak about my own experiences and I'm hugely grateful to the prime minister and Lord Chancellor for taking forward these measures as I know the difference they would they would have made for me and so many of the survivors I have worked with in recent years. Harriet, well let me ask you what you thought about the original proposal first. The so the original idea was that jury trials would have to be scrapped in c in certain cases and cases that had a sentence below a certain threshold. um in order to allow sexual assault cases to be heard more quickly. What did you what did you make of that at the time? What were your impressions of that idea? >> I find that incredibly cynical. I I see that as a complete overreach of state power and sc even scrapping jury only trials for offenses um with prison sentences of less than 3 years. It's great that they're not going to go ahead with that anymore, but getting rid of them for either way offenses as well where you have a right to say I want to be tried by a jury of my peers. the using the c the criminal the courts and tribunals bill. Sorry, that's what it's called, the courts and tribunals bill to using sexual assault survivors and victims to push through this bill which represents a serious fundamental challenge to our civil liberties. I think it's wrong. I think it's cynical and I think it's an insult to survivors. The the measures that have been announced today are good. I don't think that the government should go ahead with um stopping people who are charged with either way offenses from getting to decide whether they go to magistrate's court or are tried by jury at crown court. I think that that one needs to go as well. I think that this is a really toxic legacy from David Lammy as justice secretary. I think this is probably one of the most shameful things that he's left us with. Um it's a really ancient right to be tried by a jury of your peers. It's got its roots in the Magna Carta. Um and it is I see it as a real dilution of the quality of justice in this country. Not giving us faster justice or better justice, diluting its quality, making its quality worse to serve state interests where we have less liberty, fewer civil rights and fewer individual rights. Um and you know according to people in the legal profession some people think that this is because we have a fundamental fundamentally conservative judiciary in this country who think that they always know better than juries. And you know we you can see how conservative our judiciary is when it comes to cases like some of the Palestine Action trials that we've seen. >> I was going to bring that up because of course you and I have both reported a lot on Palestine Action and Defend Our Juries. Um I remember when I when I saw this at the time, you know, there was like a cynical the most the most well maybe not cynical but but the most severe take that I had was that um the suffering of um rape and sexual assault victims who are made to wait uh because of massive underfunding of the courts um over repeated governments including the StarMA government um was simply going to be a cover for removing juries from cases where juries were likely increasingly likely to uh dismiss dismiss the charges. So um cases involving protests particularly and I really thought that that was that was what was behind this because the prescription of Palestine action had grown to be so embarrassing that it couldn't be compounded by the additional embarrassment of you know in cases where people create you know violate section 11 or 12 of the terrorism act um which can carry up to a 13year sentence um that they would then opt to go to crown court and start jamming up the crown court. I thought this was like a really cynical way of of of of of addressing addressing that by the government. But on the other hand, I thought, okay, well, maybe this is really the their attempt to speed up um trials for for those victims. But then there are so many other levers available to them, including additional funding or including what they've done now, which is to open up specialist courts. We didn't have to go through this whole rigma roll of the Labour Party basically trampling on as you say this ancient right to a jury trial where jury trials have often actually performed a very particular function which is rejecting parliamentary laws by refusing to convict on them if they don't agree with them. >> Oh quite it stops juries being able to just say this is ridiculous we're acquitting based on conscience. >> Yeah. >> Which is something that it feels like this government is desperate for juries not to do. and the judiciary, as you say, very conservative and desperate for them in many cases not to know that they have the have the power to do it. >> But the other really important element to this story is that rape is essentially decriminalized in this country. Like we've got such low prosecution rates. We've got really long weights which are incredibly traumatizing. The whole process is really traumatizing. We've got inept and inadequate policing. We've got a lack of steps to tackle these really core issues of misogyny, rape myths, who gets to be a victim in these circumstances, which, you know, we're still discussing these issues that it it feels like none of this goes away. And we've got one in four women in this country who've been raped or sexually assaulted by the time they're 16. That's absolutely disgusting. >> Why are we going to the absolute heart of that? Uh Andy Bernham put this announcement out today as a video message and I had a little scroll for my sins on Twitter of the comments underneath and it was honestly just the most vile and disgusting anti-Muslim racism. Um and there's a really disturbing we weaponization of women and girls safety in these issues I think to fuel anti-immigrant sentiments and to serve the far right. Even though we know six out of seven cases, male violence against women and girls is overwhelmingly perpetrated by people who are known to the victim, people who are close to them. Um, and we know that when the perpetrator is white British, the people who grift on these issues from the far right, they don't care. They don't care about those victims because it doesn't suit their narrative. In the Arabian Peninsula, where two major wars are being fought by Western powers and their outofc control proxy Israel, a third front looks increasingly likely to be opening up. Fears are rising that war in Yemen is returning with the rebel group Ansar Allah, also known as the Houthis, and their enemy Saudi Arabia, exchanging fire across the two countries borders and also in the vital Red Sea passage on Yemen's southwestern tip. The recent hostilities appear to have been triggered by Saudi Arabian air strikes on the airport in Yemen's capital Sana in July, preventing an Iranian airliner from landing in the Houthi controlled city. At the time, the western recognized Yemeni government, which controls Yemen's airspace with the support of Saudi Arabia, claimed responsibility for the attack. And two US officials told Axios that Donald Trump gave Crown Prince Muhammad bin Salman of Saudi Arabia his support for that military action. The Houthi struck back, immediately attacking Saudi Arabia's Ava airport with missiles and drones. Since then, tensions have only risen further. Last weekend, the Houthi seized a swave of new territory running south along Yemen's west coast, essentially taking control of the Babal Mandeb Strait, a narrow passage, allowing transit of vessels from the Red Sea into the Indian Ocean. Houthi officials say that Saudi Arabia carried out 300 strikes in the course of a week in response to their seizure of further territory. This was their spokesperson Muhammad Alb Bukiti speaking to Sky News last week. >> Government is actually seeking a a deescalation in all internal fronts. The target of escalation is actually the Saudis and what we are seeking from the Saudis is to end the blockade and to end the the aggression against Yemenes. So we say that that the ball is in the Saudis playfield. So it is their decision to stop this war. Actually stopping the war is a is a common uh win. It's a it's a win-win situation. Uh the the Saudis have a lot more to lose than what Yemen has left to lose. And Yemen has already gained big military capacity. So, so ending this this operation, this military action is all in in Saudi's hand. Uh, all that we have done is uh is put the equation of a blockade for a blockade, an aggression for an aggression. The Saudis are the ones who started this war against Yemen. They started it 12 years ago with the with the fatal operation that started in 20 2015. >> But to start this uh in this moment and I know you're referencing uh the attack on the runway uh back uh when a uh plane full of Houthies was coming back uh from the Iranian Supreme Leader's funeral and and you say that this is in response to that. However, your critics would say that you're actually trying to secure uh the control over the Red Sea as the Iranians continue to tighten their grip on the street of Hmuz. So, this opening of a of a new front, a new theater is part of that. We don't need to actually overlook the Red Sea or Babel Mandep street to to impose a blockade against Saudi ships thanks to our advancing military abilities whether air abilities or sea abilities we are able to impose a blockade whether we control Babel Mandep street or we do not. This weekend, the Houthis retaliated again. On Saturday, thick plumes of smoke were seen rising from the location of the airport in Saudi Arabia's capital, Riyad, after the Saudi government had issued red alerts to inhabitants of the city, warning of possible attacks. The Houthis have since claimed responsibility for the strike, saying that a large number of ballistic and cruise missiles and drones had been used to attack sensitive sites in Riyad and Aramco State Oil and Gas Company facilities in Yanbu along the coast. So far, countries like the US and the UK have stayed out of the hostilities, at least overtly. The New York Times has reported that US President Donald Trump has decided to stay out of the joint strikes on the Houthis, at least for now. And British Prime Minister Andy Bernham is said to be considering bolstering Saudi Arabia's forces as they try to push the Houthis back, but he hasn't done anything yet. In a recent article for Zateo, assistant professor of international relations at the University of Sussex, David Wearing has explained why this is a bad idea getting involved and that Bernham should go further against Saudi pressure. He's argued that Britain must end its role in Yemen's brutal war, but also that it should pay reparations for its role in the last one. That was of course the humanitarian disaster that dragged on from 2014 all the way into 2022. During which time a UK and US backed coalition of Gulf states and other countries relentlessly assaulted Yemen. Over that period some 377,000 people were killed in the country around 150,000 of them by direct violence. Others died from disease and starvation including at least 85,000 children according to save the children and 5 million people at least were displaced on Britain's involvement in what the UN called the worst humanitarian crisis in the world at that time writes this many of the Saudi coalition's air raids were conducted with Britishbuilt aircraft and bombs at the start of the war then foreign secretary Philip Hammond declared that the UK would support the Saudi military in every practical way short of engaging in combat including the resupply of spare parts and ammunition. The British state and its arms industry, sorry, the British state and its arms industry lived up to this promise. More than 6,000 government and contractor personnel worked throughout the war to support and maintain the Saudi Air Force, enabling it to continue operating as one BAE Systems contractor disclosed the fighter jets in question would have been rapidly grounded without the maintenance provided by Britain. Today, BAE Systems has around 7,000 employees in Saudi Arabia. Despite there having been no meaningful accountability for Saudi atrocities in the 2015 to 2022 conflict, the British government appro approved arms exports worth 464.8 million to Riyad in the first quarter of this year, most of which is likely accounted for by the very air-to-surface missiles used in that early conflict. In approving the transfer of these arms, the Kiarama administration showed a striking lack of concern for their past and possible future use by the Saudi regime. Indeed, the de facto impunity compared by this continuation of arms supplies only increases the likelihood of f further war crimes as the conflict resumes. Wing and his colleagues have also worked out how the UK could go further, not only by refusing to fan the current hostilities, but by helping to reconstruct Yemen. He writes this, "According to our estimates, a windfall tax on profits made by two leading British arms companies, BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce, from weapons they sold to the Saudis for likely use in Yemen between 2015 and 2022 could raise up to 3.9 billion pounds. The British state could match this sum by restoring the UK aid budget to 0.7% of gross national income and drawing its portion of the reparation payments from these funds. A total reparations payment of 7.8 8 billion pounds targeted at urgent humanitarian reconstruction and development needs would go a long way to building a better future for Yemen, especially if it were matched by similar arms export bans and reparations payments by other culpable states, not least of all the United States. David Wearing, assistant professor of international relations at the University of Sussex joins me now. David, thanks very much for coming in this evening. Um, before we get into the present danger, the the danger that's currently unfolding in the region, can you start by explaining, you know, how this all started? So, you know, a basic primer, who are the Houthies, who are what's often called the internationally recognized government of Yemen? And what does any of this have to do with Saudi Arabia? >> So, Yemen is obviously to the south of Saudi Arabia, and the Saudis have often seen it as their kind of backyard. Same way as the Americans see Latin America as their backyard. What goes on in uh in Yemen matters a great deal strategically from Saudis point of view. Now, Yemen has always been a kind of a weak state centrally. Lots of competing poles of power. um 2010 2011 your sort of viewers cast their minds back uprisings across the Arab majority world calling for peace calling sorry for democracy end of corruption stuff like that in Yemen some of the biggest protests challenged the then president Ali Abdasal um he was effectively toppled and then you've got this contest for power that happens after that on the one hand you got the Houthies who are a kind of um little bit like Hamas I say they're like a political movement with a paramilitary group attached. They're religious fundamentalists. They're also nationalists and anti-imperialists. So kind of right-wing anti-imperialist kind of force. Um you've got them on the one hand and then you've got a whole kind of constellation of anti-houthy forces. Um some of whom are loyal to the Saudis, some to the United Arab Emirates. The Houthies come down topple the interim government in 2014. the interim post sale government and then the anti-Huthi forces try and prevent them from taking hold of the country and then you've got this war 2014 15 to 2022 when it's the Houthies versus everyone else and it ends with the Houthies controlling um what used to be North Yemen during the cold war and the anti-houthy forces controlling what used to be South Yemen during the cold war. um North Yemen being where the majority of the population live and you got a cold peace from then until now. >> But what I I guess I still don't understand the interest of Saudi Arabia and then this coalition that was backed by the US and the UK like what was the what was the purpose of their involvement? Why why were why were they picking one side over over the other? >> Well, the Americans and the British one side over the other. >> Um I mean I guess there's a number of reasons. One might be just a kind of de facto you support your ally, you know, in this when when your ally um is involved in a conflict in a region, you want to be seen to be supporting your ally. You want to be um sending them the message that you got their back. You want to be sending their enemies the message that you've got their back. The whole credibility thing that superpowers care about. But there's the bigger kind of geostrategic region reason sorry as well which is that Yemen sits next to one of these really important choke points. Over the last sort of six seven months we've all had this big like demonstration of the importance of um certain choke points in in global sort of um global sea routes uh with regards to the Gulf and and the um straightforward moves where so much of the world's oil flows. you you choke off that sort of um choke off that straight and you could do enormous damage to the world economy. Now, if you think about the strategic leverage that Iran's got by being able to close a straightforward mood, what would it be like if an Iranian ally, an anti-British, anti-western, anti-Saudi group, the Houthies, were able to control or threaten to control the kind of twin of the straight of Hormuz, which is the Babel Mandeb straight at the bottom of the Red Sea. And what the Houthies have done in the last few weeks is realize the fears of the Saudis, but also the West as well. the pro Iranian group um or just an anti-western group taking control of that stray and using that strategic leverage against the west and against its allies that it was so so back in sort of 2015 to 2022 they were thinking about a scenario like this and trying to prevent it I guess >> right I see and so and that and that's why they were prepared to be engaged in a in a war for seven years against one of the poorest >> well the poorest state in the Gulf right is to maintain that strategic advantage over that straight >> I mean okay so as you point out there like none none of this is is happening in a vacuum right so you mentioned straight of hummus and the global oil supply we as you said we saw the Houthies um uh really disrupt international cargo travel in in you know late 2023 early 204 um how does this new front here just you know taking the west coast of um of of of of Yemen how does that impact that and and the and the risk of the US and the UK getting involved once again. >> Um yeah, I mean it's difficult to see how this doesn't turn back into at least something like the 2015 2022 conflict which as you indicated it was absolutely devastating. It was a scene of the world's worst humanitarian crisis and the Saudis in that conflict were really like using collective punishment against a population in Houthi controlled areas. The the rationale seems to me looking at the patterns of violence, it seems to me to be if we pulverize the civilian infrastructure, if we make the polit population suffer, they will turn against the Houths. That seems to me to be the calculation. Classic collective punishment strategy. Not dissimilar to what the Israelis were doing in Gaza, right? >> Um that that was devastating. It didn't work, but that was that was the that was the way it planned. It didn't work like in terms of you know military objectives of defeating the Houthies but it was devastating. It's difficult to be to see how we don't go back to something like that because what the Hoofies have done is make the Saudis look ridiculous. >> The Saudis effectively started this latest latest round of fighting. They launched an air strike against the major airport in Houthihel territory because an Iranian flight was landing there and they didn't want the Iranians to land. The Houthies have used this as an opportunity because they saw that the the pro-Sauda anti-hufi forces in Yemen were weak. They used this strike by the Saudis as a pretext and have grabbed this huge swave of territory on the western coast of um of Yemen. They've gone right down to the Babel Mandev. They've taken the strategic islands in the straight um and now they look like they could be heading westwards as well and seizing even more territory. And they're hitting Riyad. They're hitting the Saudi capital. Um, and when you feed that into look at that in the context of the wider war with Iran and how you know the Iranians are squeezing the global economy and squeezing the sort of pro- US alliance and in the region by shutting down the straightforward moves and now the hoofies are squeezing on the other side the Saudis Saudis were trying to get their oil exports out of the Red Sea because they couldn't get them out the Gulf. Now that's shut off as well. From the Saudi point of view, it's go back to what I said about credibility. You can't have your opponents like achieve these wins over you and just let it slide. >> So, you almost have to I'm not trying to justify it, but I'm I'm trying to describe the mentality being realist about it. >> Well, that's the mentality, you know, you have to strike back. >> Um, and the Saudis know, by the same token, the Saudis know, we we fought a seven-year war and we couldn't dislodge them. So now they're going to Trump, they're going to Burnham and saying, "Look, can you join with us and help us drive them back?" And obviously the Americans and the British know the same thing as the Saudis did, which is, you know, we've been bombing these guys for a decade. >> The previous central government was fighting them for the previous decade. No one's been able to beat them. So it's a you find yourself in this kind of checkmate scenario strategically speaking like these guys are hard to beat but at the same time what they're doing can't be allowed to pass especially with regards to the impact of all this on the world economy. So it's difficult to see how it would play out other than more protracted futile conflict and the people of Yemen being the ones who suffer. I wanted to ask about the the the Houthies interests because they must have interests themselves, national interest as you said they're right-wing nationalist um you know you know political movement in some sense >> um >> like in the west they're always described as Iranbacked militias Iranbacked rebels or in sometimes just Iran proxies like they're just doing it for Iran. Um, is there no sense in which their interests can be appealed to in order to negotiate something independently of of this kind of network of events that's happening in the in the in the region at the moment? >> Yeah, definitely. I mean, they're an independent actor. >> Yeah. >> Um, in the same way as, you know, like Hamas and Hezbollah get described as uranium proxies, but they're all independent actors within a wider alliance. I mean, you might as well call Britain a US proxy. Like Britain has got a relationship with the Americans which is very unequal, but the Britain aren't literally a US puppet. Um yeah, like the the hoops have their own interest. They're a real group in their own right, you know, with their own ideology. They make their own choices, sometimes choices which the Iranians don't like. Um and I think what they're looking for here is kind of recognition from the international community for their kind of proto state that they're developing. Um they want Saudi restrictions on their sort of um you know there's been a longterm Saudi blockade and sea blockade on that part of of Yemen. They want that completely lifted, not just alleviated but lifted. >> Um they want lots of things that people don't want to give them, but they do want certain things. They do have certain material interests. Um it's hard to see how there isn't an a a diplomatic solution to all of this at some point. But unfortunately you get all these you know interests of credibility, strategic interest, imperial interests, >> precedent. >> Yeah. Which which which overrides the sort of interest that you know you and I might just want to see peace. People in Yemen know that want to see peace, but the big powers have their own interests and that's trampling over the interest of the Yemeni people unfortunately. >> Yeah. But the UK and the US haven't yet got involved. What do you think's holding them back at at this point? I mean, I know you said it's a check made. They sort of know from history that it's, you know, probably not going to work, but that doesn't that doesn't stop them before. Um >> um is it threat greater threat to oil for example, blowing up of Saudi pipeline? You know, >> I think it's the sense of futility >> like I mean you have to remember like not only have the Saudis fought this failed war against the Hoofies, but the British and the Americans have intervened directly against the Houthies as well. When the Houthies intervene in the kind of regional war around the Gaza genocide, they try and join in or do join in and um try and restrict Israeli shipping to put the squeeze on Israel and to raise the cost of is Israel's actions to Israel. Then the British and the Americans come in and try and defeat the Houthies, stop the Houthies from doing that, which is effectively intervening on the side of Israel. And you might remember the parliamentary debates where Rishi Sunna was the then prime minister making out that it was not just incorrect but almost offensive to suggest that any of this had anything to do with Gaza, which certainly did. They just didn't want it to be seen that way. But anyway, I mean, point being, British Americans intervened. Then the Americans had another stab at it for about 6 weeks last spring. None of this worked. Um, and you think about how much it's cost the Americans to fight this stupid war against Iran. How much, you know, the loss of munitions, the damage to bases, all of it to achieve literally like less than nothing. Can they afford to open another front? Probably not, you know. And one thing, >> not with the midterms coming up. >> Exactly. Exactly. Like oil's already at $100 a barrel. If this goes, you know, even hotter than it already is, six weeks time, Americans are paying $7 at the gas pump and um and the GOP are obliterated. So, they're thinking about stuff like that and and just thinking about Burnham. Bernham will be deeply concerned that if Britain is involved in a Saudi war against the Houthies, it's anything like the 2014 1522 war and he's implicated in that. Um that undo a lot of the work that he's been trying to do to reach out to the left. I mean it seems to me that Burnham understands that Labour's big problem is that it lost voters to its left and it has to win them back. And if you look at the moves Bernham's made since he came in, a lot of it's about building bridges with progressive voters. um if he finds himself embroiled in this, it undoes all of that. All the stuff with regard to the sanctions on settlement activities that they made such a song and dance about a couple of weeks ago, it undoes all of that. So, there's lots of reasons for them to hesitate before getting involved. >> But it sounded like from what you were saying before, a kind of sort of natural law of like um alliance and bravado is going to eventually pull them pull them into this, right? because it can't be allowed to stand that the Houthies make headway here. Like there's Well, I was going to just say put this in the context of like military spending that's coming up. There's a big debate about um you know, defense budget, whether it should should increase um you know, what does the case in in Yemen of the past tell us um you know, about those very current arguments about about increasing our defense spending and remilitarization? I mean, it's always called defense, but it doesn't necessarily feel like defenses in in the homeland, right? It's sort of out there. >> Yeah. No, people are calling for an increase in military spending. I think that's really important to insist on that. This term defense, Ministry of Defense, defense spending, the I mean this is literally all Wellian language. If you look back at the wars Britain's fought over over a long long period, it's fought some wars of defense, some legitimate wars, but many many many wars which have been about upholding a certain global order. you know, in the interests of of Britain and in the interests of in British state power, in the interests of US agy, which Britain committed back in the 40s to support as the replacement for the British Empire, wars that have been fought, you know, for for those reasons, wars, you know, Iraq and stuff like that. This is what this increase in spending is is about. It's not just about there's a reality of Russian aggression in Eastern Europe. I personally think it's it's right that people should support the Ukrainians in in self-defense against Russia. Um I think it's right that Britain should have alliances and I think you know Britain like any country is always going to have some self-defense needs. But you know hawkish people, people who are pro increases in defense spending will always lecture people like us about the hard realities of the world. Well, one of the hard realities of the world is Britain doesn't just take defensive action. And Britain's military is not just defensive. And the reality of British militarism is not only not just defensive and it's not just like imperialistic, it's also specifically not just a British military capacity. Like Britain's military is a part of a much bigger military system run by the Americans with different nodes in different parts of the world. So NATO in Western Europe, but also the Israelis Saudis in the UAE um tie together with with arm sales and the interoperability that comes with that with like the relationships that Britain has with countries like Saudi where you not just sell them the the planes, you provide them on an ongoing basis of the training, the munitions, the spare parts and all of that. The whole thing links together and Britain jacks up military spending to 3.5% of GDP. It is feeding that larger beast. And that larger beast doesn't just do nice things like support Ukraine when it gets attacked. Most of the time that beast does pretty horrible things like committing a genocide in Gaza, committing actions which are not dissimilar to what Israel did. You know what the Saudis did in Yemen is not dissimilar. use of starvation as a war tactic, that sort of thing. So when we think about this question of Britain's legitimate defense needs, which it has, um, and the threat from Russia, which is real, we have to also think about all these larger issues that are part of British militarism, and try and unpack that rather than just, as Hawks wants to do, pretend that that other stuff doesn't exist and Britain is this kind of, you know, pure and noble force for good in the world, which it clearly isn't. It's being stunned. David, thanks very much for joining us this evening. No problem. >> Ed Sheeran has tried to draw a line under the biggest controversy of his career. In a speech to fans at his show in Philadelphia on Saturday, he said this. >> Now, I want to address the question of where I stand in the situation in Israel and Palestine and whether my doing this concert here tonight implies where I stand. I've tried in my career not to be a political commentator of any kind because I want my music and shows to be about unity, not division, about humanity, not politics. But this is a humanitarian issue and I cannot hide how I feel about it anymore. What happened in Israel and at the No Music Festival on October 7th was horrific and compounded centuries of Jewish pain. What is happening in Gaza is catastrophic and unjustifiable and disproportionate. Our heart is being broken by the scale of devastation and loss of civilians lives, children's lives. And the systemic injustice we're seeing unfold in the West Bank cannot be overlooked. I am already speaking to people across the spectrum to work out how to make a contribution that helps victims of these terrible times and listening and learning because I do not know enough. I honestly am so grateful that you're here with me. This this concert is still a place where everyone is welcome and everyone here can stand beside people that have opposing views and everyone here can stand by people that they don't agree with on everything, but they can all agree on singing these songs. And these songs are about love, hope, and unity. >> Now, the pop star has faced a major backlash over the decision to ax Mlemore from his tour after the rapper gave a free Palestine speech at a show in New Jersey. Following the decision, all the other support acts on the tour dramatically quit. And McLemore was unrepentant after being dropped. He's told his fans on Instagram this. I want to bring the conversation back to where it belongs to the Palestinian people who are still being killed, still living under occupation and still fighting for their freedom. The rapper said he would donate his entire $1 million net earnings from Ed Sheeran's tour to six organizations delivering aid in Palestine. Ticket prices for Sharan's shows fell dramatically as unimpressed fans asked for their money back. By Saturday, tickets for the Philadelphia show were listed at $42, a 50% fall. Pro Palestine activists rallied outside the Lincoln Financial Field Stadium. Hillary Steinberg was one of the people protesting. She told the Guardian this. I feel betrayed about how he handled this. It has sort of soured how I think about him as an artist. Another protester, 62-year-old Ed Dugan, had equally strong words for Shearing. >> Well, Ed Sheeran is worth $400 million. He could have afforded to give up a few concert dates, but he was too chicken. I almost said a bad word. He was too chicken to uh I don't understand it. Somebody that has that much money and threw his f friend under the bus. >> Back in the UK, some felt the British star had been hard done by with Nick Ferrari saying this on LBC. >> Have they had enough now? This baying mob, one of the world's biggest stars, reduced to tears by this angry crowd, furious at what some support acts did. >> I've never I've met Ed Sher once. He's an extraordinary export for this country. He's an extraordinary advert for this country and he does a hell of a lot of work for charity you never ever get to hear about. And for a supporter to plunge him into this problem when people go to the Metife Stadium or wherever they go, do you think they're going to see Ed Sheeran or M? They probably like the fact that McLemore's I'm sure they're happy about it, but it's not Ed McLemore who sold the tickets. It's Ed Sheeran. >> Yeah, take that Ed McLemore. As you will have heard in his speech to concert go, Shiran said he had never wanted to be an activist, musician or political commentator. But of course, he has engaged in politics before. In 2021, he joined other artists and calling on the US Senate to pass the Equality Act, which would have given federal protections against sexual orientation and gender identity discrimination. In 2017, he announced his support for Jeremy Corbyn. And in 2022, he joined a concert for Ukraine in Birmingham. >> Hey guys, I just watched your video this morning. Thank you so much for sending it. Firstly, I just want to say to all Ukrainians that I love you. I stand with you and I'm so proud to be playing this fundraising event next week. I mean, Shiran's stance on on Israel, Palestine, on Palestine, on the genocide looks less like the result of him not wanting to be a commentator and more like, you know, just an overt political choice and one that many people actually make um just to not get involved and to not not take a position, just as his refusal to say the words genocide or ethnic cleansing in his statement on Saturday also seemed a political choice, right? You've got you've got to choose what you're going to say when you're going to say something and um and and that's what he chose to say. If he does manage to put this controversy behind him, though, he will have done better than other artists who have lost work for speaking up for Palestinian rights. Actress Melissa Barrera was fired from a role in the Scream franchise in November 2023 after she criticized the Israel military's actions in Gaza on social media. Susan Sandon was dropped from her agency over outspoken support for Palestine. Meanwhile, supermodel Bella Hadid also claims to have lost work because of her pro Palestine activism. That's not to mention, of course, the many ordinary people who have been punished for protesting for Palestinian rights. Uh the there are, for example, Palestinian Palestine action activists jailed in the UK. There are people who oppose the ban on Palestine action. There are students in the US threatened with deportation for protesting. And then of course there are the people of Palestine themselves. In Gaza last week, a mural of McLemore appeared on the side of a destroyed building there. It was a reminder that life is still going on in devastated territory despite continued air strikes from Israeli forces. At the bottom of the artwork is a message. Thank you for using your voice for Palestine. McLemore Harriet. What did you make of Ed Sheeran's apology? >> Um, I thought his apology was utter dog [ __ ] and I am not going to mince any words about this. This was pro-Israel teleprompter red propaganda. I have no other way to say that it was offensively historically inaccurate centering the start of this as October 7th. It it really did it it read like pro-Israel propaganda. I I I really can't find any other words for it. It the way that he he positioned it as a conflict with two sides. It's a shame that one side doesn't have an army, navy, or air force. And um he refused to say the word genocide. I thought it was a really really offensive statement frank frankly and this so for a second I just want to speak to the longevity of this story. It has absolutely populated my social feeds for seven full days and it's it's take there it's seeing no signs of slowing down. Ed Sheran's tears today I think it's important to note that as Mmore said I noticed that we're doing some different pronunciations. >> Apparently it's mlemore. >> Mlemore. >> Yes. that he got a mack all night long like mumm as he rightly said when he announced that he was going to donate a million dollars to pal Palestinian relief organizations um he said I am not a victim in this Ed Sheeran is not a victim but Ed Sheeran's white male tears have made him the victim in this and he just is not and I think that we need to remember this he is worth $400 million he's literally richer than God and he could have turned around and said when he was when a pressure was applied to him by pro-Israel billionaire Robert Craft, the owner of the Gillette Stadium, he could have turned around and said, "All right, then I'll pay all the artists. I'll refund fans and I won't play these shows, and I will tell everybody why I've made that decision." And maybe Robert Craft would not have bowed to that pressure, but maybe he would. And Ed Sheeran could hold his head up high now and say, "You know what? I refused to sh to throw my friend Mlemore under the bus and I refused to throw the Palestinian people under the bus either and we would be having a very different conversation now. But unfortunately, he did not make that decision. I was having a a bit of a like debate with a friend today about um whether we should feel sorry for Ed Sheeran. Like he's not a politician. He makes very very milktoast bland music um that people really like. Should we expect any more from him really? And I said he had a choice here. He's not a child. He doesn't he doesn't need to show himself off to as historically illiterate as he has done or to engage with pro-Israel talking points which he has done. And he didn't need to cave to a pro-Israel billionaire. >> I think yeah, it's a free speech story as well as >> well I was going to say I think for for me, you know, Ed Sheeran didn't actually need to say anything. He just had to defend McLemore's right to say that at a concert and to continue to be his his um opening act, right? He, you know, if he had just done that, which is, you know, you know, look, I I actually I'm not sure that everyone does have to get involved in polit. I think people may, you know, lots of people just deliberately keep themselves out of it and you don't necessarily then want them saying something about it when they're being forced to say something when they're not knowledgeable. You might say, "Yeah, everybody's got to educate themselves about these important things." I think that's, you know, an important value, but like I don't think everybody does. And I think that that's that's unchangeable in some way. Um, but I think the principled thing if he, you know, let's assume total ignorance of the situation um in in Gaza, let's assume that, you know, he's had his head in the sand for 3 years or he's, as you say, is so rich as God that he's insulated from the news and never has a look. The principal thing to have done would have been to defend the right of another artist to say what he said as his opening act and to have stood behind that principle. The right I mean and that is as an artist and you may debate whether it is an artist or not. As an artist that is the underly the principle that must underline all your work, right? The right of artists to express themselves as they see as they see fit, >> right? I mean, yeah, we can debate whether it's art or not. I don't know if anyone's ever listened to Galway Girl, but it's a real toss up about whether it is or not. Um, but did he did he know he knew this about Mlemore when he booked him as a support act? Like McLemore has not hidden this. He made hint in honor of Hindra who was murdered and hintal too which has Palestinian rappers rapping about about the genocide on it. >> You know, like maybe Ed Sharon didn't know what it was. Maybe he thought it was just, you know, I don't know. Like maybe he's just like an idiot. I'm not trying to defend him at all. I'm just saying, you know, let's uh it it anyway. Go on. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. >> Yeah, I just think there's something really dishonest about him saying I'm apolitical. I'm not an activist artist. I find this um you know, this prefix of activist, activist lawyers, activist judges, activist journalists. It's it's very um it's it's almost a way to like degrade the thing, isn't it? It's saying, "Oh, you're not a proper thing. You just care about issues and you just want to push issues on people." But he's saying, "I'm not an activist artist." But he did take political stances when he felt that he needed to. On Ukraine, on the other things that we've mentioned, he supported Jeremy Corbyn. I'd forgotten about that. Sure, a lot of other people had as well. But I think that there's a certain flavor of anti-Palestinian racism in saying that this is a thing that he's like not going to get involved in. And in his first statement, I think it was last Wednesday, um he had the nerve to bring up the children that come to his concerts. Yes, children attend Ed Sheeran concerts. You know which children don't get to choose whether they get involved in politics or are exposed to politics or not. It's children in Gaza that Israel is raining bombs down on and continues to fire on with drones. 21,000 of them are dead. I yeah I I just I really thought that the both of his statements have dug a much much bigger hole and have really really taken the public for falls and his his reputation as Mr. Nice Guy from the UK is permanently tarnished by this. >> I want to clarify that I don't think he is stupid. I think that the the the decision to um to make the speech that he made and also the decision not to intervene politically in any way and in fact to to um not have McLemore's back when he did make his statement about about the genocide. I think it's all actually very cynical and it's really about as you say like you know his music is is is mass marketed schllock and so he wants like a mass market to sell it to. supporting Ukraine is hardly controversial amongst people who were going to buy his music. Um supporting Jeremy Corbyn in 2017 or where wherever it was where you couldn't go to a musical festival without doing that. So that not controversial either. Um but this is a divisive issue whether you know it shouldn't be. I agree. But just from pure commercial terms, it is a divisive issue. And I suspect that was the instinct is that, you know, you don't get involved in things that are going to mess with your paycheck or your your your income stream for the album. >> I absolutely agree with that. I think there is a degree of cynicism. I think that there's there's clear thinking and decision- making here. And but when you think about the actual net worth of an individual like Ed Sheeran and how much this wouldn't have hurt him, he literally never has to work for the rest of his life. like he he could just make music for the love of it and like never put it anywhere. He would be absolutely fine. He has choices that none of us can even comprehend with this level of money. And yet he can stand there and both sides of genocide. We've watched it live streamed on social media for nearly 3 years. Like it has fundamentally changed me as a person. I really do think that because of the hor the horrific things that we we've seen that Israel has perpetrated. And he could not name the perpetrator. He could not name it as as a genocide. He constantly used the passive voice in his statement. I wouldn't be surprised if Robert Craft wrote it like it was so in the interests of Israel. And by not choosing a side in a genocide, you are choosing the side of the perpetrator. >> All right, Harriet. Very, very strong strong powerful words there. Thank you very much. And true. I don't disagree. Um, thanks Harriet for joining me tonight. Thank you everyone for tuning in. Come back tomorrow for another show from 6 p.m. For now, you've been watching Navara Media. Good night.