George Kamel Breaks Silence on Dave Ramsey Controversy, Early Retirement, & Getting Debt-Free

Want to have money without having money? It's [music] a fancy plastic I Owe You card that will have you swimming in debt for the rest of your and your offspring's life. The system exists [music] to screw you over. The system exists to keep you broke. And then you have a choice as a human being with free will, you get to decide whether or not you want to be [music] a part of the system. Americans are carrying more debt than ever before. $18.6 trillion. What are most people wasting their money on? Wants and not needs. And there's all sorts of ways you can get the thing you want now without having the money, and that's the part [music] that scares me. >> This is proof that the system is rigged or it's just a personal failure. Number one villain in this story is the person. And if I can teach people how to budget, how to get out of debt, all of a sudden they can start affording the things in their life that they want without needing to turn [music] to these companies. There is no magic time in your life or income level in your life when you go, that's when I'm going to get good with money. Get good with money now, no matter what you're making, and then work to get your income up, and then everything will scale. What happened to Ken Coleman? What did he say? >> [music] [music] >> George Campbell Ramsey personality, thank you so much for coming on the Ice Coffee Hour. It's an honor. Is this my third time? I think this might be the third time. Maybe >> We had what, the first one was with Dave Ramsey. I joined him. Then I think we've done two since then. So this is my fourth official People love them. Oh, that's sweet. Well, thanks for having me back on. I always I love the show, so I'm a fan. Thanks for coming on. We have so much to cover. There are just some crazy studies. Have Have things been happening out there? >> of things have been happening. A lot of debt has been happening. We have a lot that we need to disagree on, okay? But first and foremost, an ex-Ramsey employee, Anthony O'Neal, made a video claiming that he's shifted perspective since working at Ramsey. He said that if you have paid off your debt and stayed paid off for two years, then it's fine to start maybe getting an Amex card, paying that off at the end of every month, having a system in place to make sure auto pay is on and start building credit. What do you say about that? Well, I disagree. I see his point in that he's saying, "Hey, once you've had the discipline of not going back into debt, you can sort of reintroduce it." But to me, the same reasons you went into debt, that person is still inside. And you can change, you can be disciplined, but I don't think it makes it better than if you use your own money. So once a borrower, always a borrower. Yeah, I mean, I I had some credit card debt and I haven't been in debt for 13 years. So could I potentially use a credit card I'm going to put this in huge air quotes wisely, pay it off every month, and maybe accumulate some points? Probably. I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze, and I think I still would spend more than if I stuck to my debit and cash. So I disagree that, you know, that's advice that people should go out there and open credit cards if they've been debt free for two years. I think you're just better off never opening it again. So when do you think it's okay to borrow money? The only time it would be okay to borrow money where, like, I wouldn't yell at you for it is a mortgage, and even then that would be a 15-year mortgage with an affordable payment, meaning it's not 50-60% of your take-home pay, which is sadly what we're seeing out there. What if it is an affordable payment, but the interest rate is 20%? I mean, at that point, if it's an afford- if it's 25% of your take-home pay, regardless of the interest rate, it's a small part of your financial world. >> Even if it's 20% interest? Yeah, I mean, if mortgages were 20% interest at the prices they are now, I think nobody would be buying homes. It would be a terrible deal. It would be very difficult to get that payment low enough. You'd have to be such a high-income earner to be able to afford a payment. Is there an interest rate that you say you would not pay? For a home? Yeah. No. Because I mean, every time I've ever bought a home, the interest rate wasn't really as much of a factor. I bought a home at 3%, I bought a home at 6%. And so, it would just be more does that interest rate make it unaffordable as part of my take-home pay, and my after-tax income. If it was 50% of my take-home pay, regardless of the interest rate, I'm going this is too much, we're not ready. We need to save up more, we need to change the home we're looking at. So, we had a really viral clip when Jack asked Dave Ramsey if he would borrow a billion dollars at 0% interest. If you could borrow $1 billion 0% interest for 10 years, would you do it? What did he say? No. And everyone flamed him because they said you could just put that billion dollars in a risk-free treasury making 4%. Yeah. And just pocket the difference. Would you borrow a billion dollars at 0% interest? I'm happy to be flamed as well from people on Instagram and YouTube comments, but I I simply wouldn't do it. And it's not because I'm like trying to be, you know, anti-debt guy, it's because I live by a set of values and principles, and I have found that living debt-free is simply a better life for me. So, there's if someone else down the road, they can take that loan, and I wish them the best. They can make all the money in the world. At this point, money is not something that I'm chasing. I got kids, I got crippled dogs. I don't I'm not interested in playing money games at this point. I like the most boring, slowest ways to build wealth. So, if it sounds like, "Dude, you can make this much in a year," that's when I go, "Oh, I don't That's I'm not going to sleep well at night. I already have too much anxiety in other areas." So, the idea of owing anybody any amount of money at this stage is simply uninteresting to me, no matter the dollar amount. And I know that is not a popular take, but again, happy to get flamed for it. Flame away, my friends. How many millionaires has Ramsey made? We're actually trying to track financial transformation as of this year because of our EveryDollar budgeting app, we can actually see debt paid off, dollars saved in aggregate numbers. And so, we're actually going to start tracking that. But so far, it's just basically self-reported, people in the lobby whispering to me, "Hey, by the way, we're Baby Steps millionaires." But there's no good way to just track it. My gut says we know that 10 million people plus have been through Financial Peace University. We know that millions and millions more have purchased The Total Money Makeover and our other financial books. So, if you've become debt-free and you follow our principles for, let's say, 10 or 15 years, I think you're going to find that they become millionaires as a byproduct from having a paid-for house by following our plan and investing 15% of their income in the meantime. So, what do you think is the biggest misunderstanding with money that there is, aside from debt? The biggest misunderstanding with money, aside from debt, is that you have to make a lot of it to have any level of wealth. And if you don't have a lot of it, which, again, a lot of it is the squishiest number because we now know that half of people making over $100,000 are paycheck to paycheck, huh? And so, it's it's not about income. We know that. That's factual. I just took a call on the Ramsey Show this week where they made a $340,000 household income and they were broke. They were going into the hole every month. And so, it's not about income, it's about what you do with it, and the faster you can get control of it, if you make 40,000, the faster you're going to get control of it when you make 100,000. So, I think it really is about realizing there's no magic time in your life or income level in your life when you go, "That's when I'm going to get good with money." Get good with money now, no matter what you're making, and then work to get your income up, and then everything will scale. >> [snorts] >> You've been pulling a lot of people on the street, and I really enjoy those videos. Thank you. Here's What has that told you about the average person's finances? The most shocking thing was number one, people don't consider their debt to be debt. If it's student loans, they go, "Well, I mean, I I don't consider that debt because the government's probably going to pay for it." Crazy, but that's what they say. Or if it's a car payment, they go, "Well, it's a lease. It's not technically debt, so I'm not going to count that." And so, everyone that has debt, number one, they may not consider it debt, and number two, they're not concerned about it. I was like, "Does that stress you out?" No, not really. I don't really think about it. Well, are you working on paying it off? Uh I mean, minimum payments. Well, do you have money in savings? Yeah, I got some money in savings. Enough to pay off the debt? Yeah. Why don't you pay off the debt? Uh I'd rather see my money in savings. And so, there's just this nonchalant attitude towards debt that scares me because I see the record highs in consumer debt that we're hitting every month. I mean, credit card debt's now at $1.3 trillion. And car payments, I mean, we're seeing 750 bucks is the average new car payment. $1.67 trillion sitting out there in car payments. More delinquencies than ever. More people defaulting on their debts than ever. And so, to me, it's scary that people don't have the urgency that I have for them when it comes to getting rid of their debt and creating some peace. What are most people wasting their money on? Most people are wasting their money on wants and not needs. Like, I don't think renting is wasting money, yet that's the thing people focus on. And then I find out they're spending $300 in DoorDash every month, and they're doing buy now, pay later for Coachella tickets. And there's all sorts of ways you can get the thing you want now without having the money, and that's the part that scares me is we are we're such in a YOLO mindset of just, well, I'll never have wealth cuz the boomers took it all. And who knows if the world's even going to be around? Who knows if social security will exist? So, let me just enjoy my life now. Index funds are boring. Retirement is a pipe dream. Let's just put it all on black and sports bet and gamble and do prediction markets and buy now pay later our way into some level of joy. And the problem is that wears off real quick. What was this study that came out with Coachella tickets? Like over 50% of people borrowed money to go to Coachella? No, I think it was close to half. It was I want to say it was 40 40-something percent. >> Yeah, borrowed money to go to Coachella. That's crazy. >> that? Over 60? >> Over 60%. According to what? According to Billboard, over 60% of people that went to Coachella borrowed money in order to get the the ticket. Those are just were the ones that were honest. That's the crazy part. They're all mostly young people who are mostly broke. >> Wow. And they're going this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Let me go and I'm young, my favorite artist is going to be there, it's going to be this incredible experience. So people can justify it real easily. And when the payment is well, 0% interest on a payment plan. Man, I just went to Disney and interviewed people at Disneyland and half of them are going, "Yeah, I'm on the payment plan for annual pass. It's 130 bucks a month and me and my mom are both trying to pay it." >> How much do people spend at Disneyland? On average from talking to people, the trips range from 5 to 8,000 dollars for a couple of people. So imagine about 1,000 bucks a day per person is what you're going to spend between lodging, transportation. And it can go up from there, but that's generally what I saw. That tells me there's there's an epidemic of people going, "I don't need to have the money now. I can get it now and I can justify it and eventually future me will deal with that problem." >> What does this tell you about human psychology, human nature? I think we're fickle creatures and as much as I want to say people are more disciplined than I think and they can handle debt and handle payments, time and time again it's proven that it's just too hard. I mean, the fall of man got us here and so humans want the thing now and we made it so easy, so frictionless to get the thing now because back in the day to go to Coachella, you kind of had to have a payment form to get that ticket. Now right there, it'll say use Affirm, use Klarna, use Afterpay, and pay nothing now or pay a small amount now and you can pay the rest over the next couple of months. And so that level of frictionless payment plans have caused us to go into way more debt than we would have otherwise. >> isn't that just a lack of personal responsibility? I mean, just because it's there doesn't mean you have to go and do it. Like I wouldn't blame Affirm because someone took out a loan to go to Coachella. That's to me it's more of a, you know, that's on them. >> on them. Yeah, number one number one villain in this story is the person doing these dumb things. The number two villain is the predatory companies that have normalized this and made it so easy. So it's not like Affirm there's it's not like there's such good people of goodwill. Like I'm just going to let these let them go on the trip. They don't care about you. You are a number to them and even if you default, they'll write it off, they'll come after you, they'll sell it to a collection agency. So either way, the lenders are always going to win. And so the question you have to ask yourself is do I want to be a part of this system knowing that I'm going to make terrible decisions all for a temporary experience or product? What percent responsibility falls on the person versus the company? 100% responsibility on the person. Uh I I think there's a lot less we can do about Polymarket and Call She and FanDuel and BetMGM. There's too many lobbyists out there. Like we I I'm not going to spend my life trying to go after these companies. I'll make YouTube videos about them trying to take them down, but that's nothing to them. They don't care. They're making billions of dollars a year, growing exponentially, increasing their shareholder value at the expense of a broke generation. And so I just know I don't I don't have the power to go to the White House and fight the lobbyists, but I do have the power to tell that person to stop doing that, to get out of the system, to use their own money, to wait, save up to where they can afford it. And if they can't afford it, it's just a not now. And if I can teach people how to budget, how to get out of debt, all of a sudden they can start affording the things in their life that they want without needing to turn to these companies. So, to the hundreds of thousands of people that are watching this right now that are not where they want to be financially, you, George Kamel, money expert, would say this is proof that the system is rigged or it's just a personal failure of the person listening right now that's not where they want to be financially, it's on them. Yes. Both and. This is like improv. Yes, and. So, I wrote the book Breaking Free from Broke, and the first two-thirds of the book is about the system, how the system exists to screw you over. The system exists to keep you broke. And then you have a choice. As a human being with free will, you get to decide whether or not you want to be a part of the system, whether you want to participate and play the game and play with snakes hoping you don't get bit, which is how most people operate their life, right? At 18 we're told got to get your credit score, got to get a credit card. Well, might as well get a car payment cuz who can afford a new car these days? You want something reliable. You don't want it to be in the shop all the time. Well, who can afford college with the current rates? Let's go into student loan debt. Maybe a parent plus loan. Maybe the government will forgive it. And all of a sudden there's payments all around us. And we signed on the dotted line. Nobody forced us. Nobody had a gun to your head going you're going to get in a brand new Kia Sorento. You decided you wanted the brand new car instead of the used one that you could afford in cash. So, that's the the growing gap is the people who decide I'm not going to do debt are thriving cuz they're not playing the game. As interest rates go up, as the cost of all this stuff go up with inflation, instead real millionaires are buying four-year-old used Toyotas and Hondas. And instead of going to the new car lot saying sign me up for whatever payment I can afford, stretch the loan out to 84 months, I don't care, I want to be in that car. So, it's really all about fighting the inner child who wants the thing and is whining about the thing versus maturity, delayed gratification saying, "I'm going to pause." >> So, then a directly actionable thing to the people watching right now they're not where they want to be financially. The actionable thing is to pay attention to your money, probably for the first time. When I ask people, "Do you do a budget?" They go, "Yeah, I mean, I do a budget." I I've I've looked at my bank statement. No, no, no, do you do a budget? Do you know what's coming in? Do you know exactly what's going out where it's proactive instead of reactive? That one thing alone, like when you download every dollar, you plug in your income, you list out all of your expenses, if you just do that, you were doing probably better than 99.9% of America cuz you have a true picture of if you're spending more than you make or if there should be margin that's disappearing into money leaks, like buy now, pay later, eating out, and who knows what else. When you're talking to people, are they doing better or worse than you expected? Ooh, people's a a general term, but I would say in the street, they're actually doing better than I expect. When I talk to young people, I found most of them they have two to five thousand dollars in credit card debt. They're driving cars, you know, 2013, 2016. A lot of them paid off. Some of them have five or seven grand. They're They're few and far between where I meet someone who's like, "I'm 180 grand in debt." Those are the calls on the Ramsey show. Those are the extreme calls that we get. But, the everyday people on the street I think are actually doing better than you would think and they're driving cars that would not impress you. And really quick, every business right now is asking themselves the same question. How do we make AI work for us? The possibilities are endless, but guessing is too risky and sitting on the sidelines isn't an option either because one thing is certain, if you're not doing it, per sure your competition is. And that's exactly where our sponsor NetSuite by Oracle comes in. It's the number one AI cloud ERP trusted by more than 43,000 businesses to manage everything from financials and inventory to commerce, HR, and CRM all in one unified system. When all of your data's in one place, your AI becomes a lot smarter. It doesn't just guess, it knows. NetSuite intelligently automates routine tasks, delivers real-time insights, and helps you make fast, confident decisions that actually drive growth. 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In consumer debts and they were at Disney and they told me they were dropping a thousand bucks a day to be there for a week. And that's the clip that went viral on Instagram. That That was the picture of what you expect at Disney, right? This person who's in crippling debt going, "I just want to go on a trip. I need a vacation from my the reality of my life, which is crippling debt." So, that one stuck with me cuz I felt for them and I talked to them afterwards and I gave them the EveryDollar budgeting app and and kind of coached them a little bit. Gave them some next steps cuz I hate to The point of those man-on-the-street videos is not to make someone feel bad about their vacation. The point is to to create a little bit of conviction that I can do better and I know how to do better now and therefore you kind of our ignorance was bliss until now. I kind of pointed it out. Have you kept in touch with them? I haven't, but I think I think he's messaged me once before. So, I'm going to try to get back in touch to see where they now, and then try to see if I can get them out of this thing. It's interesting because that actually sounds exactly like someone who's addicted to drugs because their life is falling apart, and it's because of the drugs that they take, but then they take the drugs to escape that life. The same thing goes for this person in $180,000 of consumer debt, or other people, maybe not this person exactly, but like generally speaking, like you're going on this trip to Disneyland, you're taking on more consumer debt in order to escape the stress of being in consumer debt. So, it's just a vicious cycle that feeds itself. Yeah, Dr. Arthur Brooks calls that the doom loop, and it happens with all kinds of addiction. And when you translate it to money, it's the retail therapy. I buy a thing, it wasn't enough, the dopamine wore off, so then I I need to go kind of do more of it. Go bigger. And with debt, you see this kind of added to my tab mentality of, well, I'm 180 grand in debt, what's another 10 grand onto the pile. And even fam- I have family members who do this, you know, they're they go to med school, and they're 350 grand in debt. So, adding a car payment to that is like a drop in the bucket to them. And that's the scary part is this is like Monopoly money to us, and we don't realize the ramifications. And that's the side we get on the Ramsey show. When life didn't work out perfectly, when they were laid off, they were fired, a spouse wants to stay home because they had a kid, and all of a sudden we have to tell them, "Hey, you got to sell the house." Or, "Hey, that car is about to get repoed. You're about to get foreclosed on." So, those are the heartbreaking calls. Everyone takes on payments when they're doing okay in life, and they can afford the payment, quote unquote. And eventually, they have a misstep. Life happens. They have an emergency that they weren't prepared for, and then the whole house of cards crumbles. So, what's the worst thing you've seen on a call? Oh my gosh. The worst thing I've seen on a call, the the one that is burned into my memory, is I don't know if you've heard of this, the sovereign sovereignty movement? The sovereign citizen thing? >> Sovereign citizen. >> What is that? They believe that the government is basically operating under false pretenses, that taxes are illegal, and therefore I'm not going to pay taxes, I'm not going to pay back my debts, and because I think it's unlawful. And a woman called in and said my husband is a part of this movement. He's sort of fallen into this cult-like mentality, and the car is about to be repossessed, their house is about to be foreclosed on cuz he's not making mortgage payments, and he owes the IRS $300,000. And I'm and I I told her, I was like, "Hey, you might go to jail, too. Like, you might be able to claim innocent spouse if you're lucky, if you get a good attorney and get out of this, but this guy is going to drag you into prison with him if you're not careful." So, those are the scariest ones where someone is I mean, I think it's a it's a mental illness at that point, of that level of sort of paranoia and, you know, deranged behavior. What was her response? I think she was a little bit of, you know, just shock mode, of she didn't really know what to do, and there was a lot of next steps to to handle all of it, and is you know, I didn't think the marriage was going to survive in all of this. It's hard to, you know, you're so far removed of like, that's not the person I married, you know? And so, that that was a really difficult call to take. That's hard to nail down in 7 minutes on a radio call to help her. And so, that that's the hard part, is you always think about them later on, and you kind of have to, like a surgeon or a doctor, go like, "All right, phew. Next caller." You know, you have to kind of compartmentalize it and not let it stick with you too much. This seems to be more of like a psychological question, but that also seems to be the same thing that leads people to believe that it's a good idea to put debt on to take on debt in order to get a Coachella ticket. It's like all just like being disillusioned Yeah. basically. Like being deluded, seeing reality for something that it isn't. What do you think is the value of this all like We don't see money anymore. When is the last time you guys saw $10,000 in cash? Now Graham probably has cuz it's sitting in his safe at home, but most people money is just is just like this digital thing. It's just a number in a bank account. And therefore, when we take on debt like a car payment, it's $50,000 for that new car. You didn't have to actually exchange anything for that. All you had to do is promise to make a $750 payment next month and the month after that. But that balance sitting with that car lender of $50,000 isn't really real to you, similar to a mortgage. And that's what I think we need is to bring friction back, bring the reality back that even if you have 20,000 in savings and you have 50,000 in debt, you are not okay. You are not safe. There's a real deficit there and you are you are in the red. You think it has to do with delayed consequence? Because back in the day, let's say if you if you didn't pay the IRS or if you wanted to take on debt, like I feel like the consequence of doing that could not be stretched so far. Oh yeah, you'd be borrowing money from like the mob or like so from dude and then your legs get broken when you're like a day late. Yeah, that doesn't happen anymore. Now what you do is you uh you file bankruptcy. You pay a couple grand, get on a payment plan or they, you know, repo the assets or foreclose the home and then you got a get out of jail free card. Now your credit shot, your financial world is ruined for, you know, about a decade, but people just go, "I'll file bankruptcy again." That's sort of the mentality now and people see bankrupt I mean, we get so many calls where people say, "Should I file bankruptcy?" And they are $12,000 in debt. But they just somewhere learned along the way that there was a shortcut out of this thing that did not involve them. When should you file bankruptcy? I believe never. And if you know Dave Ramsey's story, he famously filed bankruptcy back in the day. But what happened is he he had his back up against the wall. He had done everything he could in the time that he was allotted, 90 days to pay back all of the all of the mortgages that he had, and he couldn't sell them off in time, and therefore had to file bankruptcy. So we've never told someone on air, you should file bankruptcy. What we tell them is do everything you can to climb out of this thing. And then eventually, if you're a Dave Ramsey situation, it's going to be a natural byproduct because you've run out of options. But too many people make it the first option instead of a last ditch effort of I man, I tried everything I could and I couldn't pay it back in time and there was no way out. But rarely is that the case these days. Most of the time even if it's couple hundred thousand and you know, SBA loans. That's a big one we get is people took on a bunch of leverage to start a business, the business failed, and yet they're left, you know, holding the bag. And that's a scary situation. We go, hey, you guys have to go get normal jobs and work on paying this down over time and get on a payment plan. But I still believe that is the best path out because the behavior change and transformation that happens when you have to pay all of that money back and sacrifice and actually have that inner transformation, you'll never go back in. Cuz what we see is people going to bankruptcy two, three, four times cuz they just keep doing the same behavior that got them there. They never really learn. What are your thoughts on debt consolidation? Oof. I It's another shortcut that I'm not a fan of. People again think this is some like magic trick of just like I'm going to take my 20 different debts and put it into one debt and that'll be easier to manage. And the truth is it makes it harder to pay off because now you're staring at Everest instead of quick win, quick win, knock out one debt, knock out the next, which is the debt snowball method. Debt consolidation makes the debt snowball method nearly impossible because now you're just paying back one giant loan. >> What if you lower the interest rate and it lowers your payment and you're able to chip away at it faster? Do you think this psychological aspect just outweighs that? I still think the interest savings isn't worth it, especially if you're doing our plan. Cuz our plan says gazelle intensity, deep sacrifice for a short period of time. So, therefore, the actual math on how much you'd save on interest is negligible when you're going to attack it in 18 to 24 months, which is the average we find people getting out of their consumer debt following our plan to a T. And so, I I've never seen someone go, "Man, I became debt free and debt consolidation was my ticket." Or even worse, these debt settlement, debt relief companies that are popping up all over the place. What are you seeing right now with inflation impacting people's finances? Cuz right now gas prices are crazy. Even in Vegas, I'm seeing like $5, $6 a gallon. >> I was just in California and I I wanted to throw up thinking about >> It's like $8 a gallon. >> having to fill up a car. >> There was one gas station by Beverly Hills where someone posted on Reddit $10 a gallon for gas. That is insane. >> $10. I think what I'd I'd get a bicycle. Real quick. I'd be It's nice weather over there, so you can easily get to where you need to go. Or just, you know, don't leave the house other than going to work and back. Uh but yeah, that's true. Inflation is real. That's it's not like a a boogeyman. There's a real level of prices have gone up, and even as inflation has cooled, the prices just don't go back down. They just don't go up at quite the same pace. And so, it is a real problem. I don't see it changing drastically anytime soon, and therefore, what's the solution? It's your budget. It's cutting back other in other places and trying to make more where you can. That's the only real solution is to go, "All right, gas is going to cost me 250 bucks instead of 150. Well, where am I going to find that 100 bucks? I got to cut it from somewhere else." And once you can do that math and start to finagle your own finances, it becomes a lot less stressful than just sort of being in denial, going, "Yeah, gas is more expensive, but I'll add it to the tab. I'll put it on my credit card, and hopefully I'll be able to pay off the balance at the end of the month." Now, instead, make a real plan of where that extra money is going to come from, whether it's from working extra, getting a raise, getting a promotion, cutting back on subscriptions, cutting back on eating out, because that money is real and you have to account for it. How often is not making enough money a valid reason for someone's dissatisfaction with their finances or being in debt? I would say out of all the Ramsey show calls I take, there's probably 10% where it legitimately is an income problem. But even then, they are in a like the debt to income ratio is off balance. So, they have $40,000 in debt, but they make $60,000 as a household. That's a really tough situation. Like as your debt starts to creep up with as much as your income if not more, the math just becomes a lot harder to pay off. But rarely do I find I think once you hit the normal threshold, which most of our callers, they're making the average median household income or higher. They're they're doing well. They're making 80k, 100k, 150k. Uh rarely do we get the ones that are hey, our household income is 40k. Yes, that is a problem. You're not going to be able to have a stay-at-home spouse with a bunch of kids with the car you want, life you want while making 40k as a household. That's just really tight in today's America. So, the good news is we always dig in and go, "What are you doing for work? Okay, what's the ladder in that field?" And if there isn't one, how do we get you out of this like hourly wage position making 15 or 20 bucks an hour? >> tell them to be an AI consultant? You know, I haven't tried that yet. I heard Grant Cardone say you can make a million dollars a year pretty easily as an AI consultant. I haven't attempted it. But I do tell people, "Okay, what is the skill set behind the thing that you're doing? And then where can you make a lot of money with that same skill set if you just moved it over here?" And obviously, if you listen to Ken Coleman, what is the you know, the thing you're actually passionate about. So, not just the thing that's going to be soul-sucking, cuz I we also get a lot of calls from young guys who go, "Hey, I just want to make a lot of money. I want to go into medical device sales cuz I've heard you can make a lot of money." 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How often do you think people are really passionate about what they do? Rarely. Most people are miserable in their jobs. And sometimes it's a mindset. I've met people who have cuz you would say, if you looked at most jobs in America, I go, I wouldn't want that job. I mean, right? 99.9% of jobs out there, Graham Stephan goes, you couldn't pay me enough to do that." Well, maybe they could pay you enough to do that. Graham's like, "I have a number." Yeah, they absolutely could. There is an amount. I have a number. But, the truth is there's also people who no matter what their work is, they find joy in it. Because they they don't look at the face value of the work. Cuz if you look at face value of the work for most people, I sit in meetings all day. I'm in front of a computer all day trying to word smith an email, and then you go home. That's soul-sucking. But, if you actually like to serve people, you like to be around people, if you have co-workers, you actually want to grow, then almost any work can be fulfilling. I mean, I've met Walmart greeters that have more joy than the guy making $300,000 at Deloitte. >> Oh, because they get really good health insurance. That's where it's at. Get that health insurance. Really good. >> But, it's true. There's a quality of life that your job affects. And if you have a poor quality of life due to the income or due to the stress or due to the soul-sucking nature of that job, get out. There is work out there for you that you can enjoy and make good money doing. So, how much do you think it takes per year to have four kids with a stay-at-home wife? Oof. Well, it's very area dependent, so Bay Area versus Idaho is going to be very different. >> So, let's just talk then, high cost of living like metro areas. Metro area, single income, four kids. Now, that I'm going to say you don't have debt. All right? Cuz it's going to Now, you got to way increase the income if you're in crippling debt. You got a bunch of cars, a huge mortgage. Let's say you have a reasonable mortgage. You followed our principles. 15-year fixed, 25% of your your after-tax income, and no consumer debt. You can then survive on a decent, you know, let's say a high cost living area, $100,000. Cuz that if you do the math on that, you're talking six grand a a month, probably coming in, maybe five if you're high taxes in California, and you have a reasonable mortgage, that's two grand a month. You got three grand a month to play with to cover food, utilities, insurance, a little bit of fun money. For four kids? Well, it depends on the kid I mean how old how old are the kids? Are they in private school? All of that matters. But I mean with kids you're talking about maybe formula, diapers, and basic clothing. >> Rice and beans. Like what do kids actually need? Well, we're not we don't need to take them all to Disney every year. We're just making sure that they're they're fed, they're growing properly, they're healthy. That's about it. I kind of agree with that. >> Like I could be totally naive here because I don't have kids, but >> Or a wife. Or a wife or a girlfriend. Shoutout to Jack if you're interested. I do not remember being like like needing expensive things when I was a kid. Like all of the vacations that we would go on would just be backpacking trips. And so like we would just take the car out, load up our backpacks, we'd have a tent, and then we just walk somewhere, and then boom, set up the tent and sleep. And then of course you have food, and then you have like I was in soccer, but soccer was maybe like $100, $200 to sign up for a team. Yeah. And then aside from that it's I mean I what? Insurance? But my mom was a public school teacher, so that was also Which is a I mean she's not making the big bucks as a public school teacher, and what you find is the reality is a lot of people live in California making a $100,000 household income. They exist, and they make it work. And yet there's other people who make $350,000 who are in the red every month, paycheck to paycheck. And so it's really hard to say, "Well, if they just made this much money, they would be okay." Because as we know half of those six-figure earners are paycheck to paycheck. So you can't just say, "Well, if they made $200,000, it'd be reasonable." Because that lifestyle probably necessitates this fancy car that they can't afford, the big house that they can't afford. But when you go, "This is the reality of how much we make, what can we actually afford?" You just make different decisions, and you make it work. There's sacrifices made when you have a stay-at-home spouse with four kids. You don't do the things that other people do. Graham is under the impression that like to raise a family of four, what do you think it would cost? But over 18 years or what? >> a discussion with the Oppenheim >> Per month? Per month. We had a discussion with the Oppenheim brothers and they were throwing out like ludicrous numbers and I'm like there's just my parents weren't making that amount. >> How many of these people have four kids? Well, no, two kids cuz it's a family of four. So how much do they have for four? >> Okay, I have a family of four. Do they have a family of four? No. >> Graham does not. He's just He's just like very apprehensive to have kids cuz he feels like he can't afford it. So, how I'm not apprehensive to have kids. I'm just saying it's I I just don't think it's going to be a few grand a month. So, how much do you think a family of four needs to be bringing in to support a fam to support a family? >> I think it really is location dependent. If you own your house, Vegas? I'm going to say probably 125k a year minimum for a family of four. Is that assuming there's no consumer debt? Correct. Let's assume there's no consumer debt. What Don't you think it's a better way to live at that point? To just have no consumer debt. That way >> Yeah, that's why I said 125k. He's saying 125k no consumer debt. So, like like yeah, I think that's a good life. Yeah, but 10,000 a month is minimum. But that's not to cover the kids. That's just to cover the entire household. Everything. Yeah. >> Utilities, >> are this much of the They might be some travel, 5% >> other expenses, emergency. I think that's the minimum. I think it could be done for less, but I think that would be the the amount that would be comfortable. >> Yeah. As a As someone who is a You know, we have a four-person family. I've got an infant, I've got a toddler. I can tell you what we spend on the kids and it's it's diapers, it's formula, and honestly, all the toys and books we didn't purchase. They come from family and friends and birthdays and stuff. >> It was interesting that Chris Kamello was saying that when you raise kids in a nicer neighborhood, they cost significantly more just because if you don't keep up with what the other families are doing, the kids will feel excluded. And that you have to have your kids at the same level. Otherwise, they're the odd ones. >> give you an example. Our neighborhood, like all of these little kids have these little, you know, these little Jeeps, these little motorized cars they're driving around in. And so we got my daughter one cuz now she's just watching them drive around, not able to participate. And so for Christmas, my family got her a little motorized Jeep that she loves to ride around in now. But there is a level of you sort of and that's funny that we learn this at such a young age, that you have to assimilate to the people around you, otherwise you're you stick out like a sore thumb. And there's a truth to it in that you want to be a part of this community, you sort of have to be like that community. Otherwise, eventually they go, "Hey, you're he's not really one of us." Or they don't want to participate. >> Would you say Nashville has a similar cost of living to Vegas? Oh, 100%. Medium >> in Nashville, we're in Las Vegas. How much do you as a family of four spend per month? Probably $5,000. Maybe six if we're really living. But that's our like to cover it like if I had a Let's say I lost my job. We needed our emergency fund and we cut back to like a pretty just like bare-bones budget, we still enjoy our life, but we're kind of cutting out all the extras. I could bring it down. I Yeah, I could bring it down to four or five grand easily. Because our actual expenses we have to cover are insurance for the home, taxes for the home, all the other insurances, auto, term life, all of that, and then food, which we could really, you know, just shop at Aldi and and meal prep and do all that kind of stuff if we had to. And the kids have plenty of crap, they don't need any more of it. And so I I feel very confident that if there was a situation like that, I could trim way down. But if you look at the average home in Williamson County, which is the county we're in, it's a million dollars now. It's the average price, which is crazy in Williamson County. And so I assume Vegas is similar. I would say it's to that. >> Similar. And depending on the area, you probably find cheaper. Like if you went to the most expensive area of Vegas, it probably be more like that. Of average home at least a million. I would agree with that. So, how much do you think someone would need to retire in their 40s to support a family of four? If they retired in 2026? Yeah. Let's say they're 40 years old. Oh, they want to retire early? Yeah. Okay, that's a pretty wild Well, I wouldn't recommend it first of all. >> Why? Uh I've never met someone who can sustain that. Cuz the the personality type to be able to retire at 40 with a huge nest egg, they're just simply too ambitious to just go full stop. It's like a marathon runner doing the marathon and saying, "I am never running again." They're just going to be jonesing for that next thing. They're just too goal-oriented to then just stop and have no ambition and sit on a beach. It gets old fast. Even if you want to travel internationally, great. You go on the trip and eventually you just want, you know, a McDonald's hamburger and to sleep in your own bed. And so, I think there's a fallacy that retiring early I love the idea of retiring early or being work optional. That's what I love. That's it's kind of the like screw you money. Where you hate every you hate your boss, your job is toxic, whatever. You can just go, "I'm out. I don't need this anymore." And your assets create enough income to cover your expenses. I think it's a great goal to have for your assets to cover your expenses and create respit off enough income to do that. But, I think the idea that you're going to do nothing is the scary part. Cuz those people have so much value to add to the economy. If they're making 100 probably a couple hundred thousand dollars and socking most of it away to be able to retire at 40. If you think about starting from 25 to 40, 15 years, you are just piling money away. Probably to the tune of a savings rate of 50, 60% to be able to do that. So, how much would you need? It depends on your lifestyle. Some people want to live this sort of a and you know this, there's like lean fire all the way to fat fire. From financial independent retire early. So, we're talking I can live off $750,000 nest egg to I need 10 million plus just to survive. And what I found, cuz I've been looking into these communities, the goalpost always moves. Everyone is so scared to pull the trigger. And all the comments go, "Dude, the math checks out. You're fine to retire You got $6 million and your expenses are $100,000 a year. Go enjoy your life if you want to quit." But, most people are so scared and it's not about the money. I think it's about the purpose and value they then identity they feel in the work that they do. And what's going to happen on the other side when they're just sitting at home? I think a lot of it is that they plan for the downside. Cuz I've seen a lot of these posts. I'm on Reddit fat fire like every single day. And I see those where it's like and they're almost at $14 million liquid and, you know, I'm doing this. The average person went to the fat fire subreddit, they would go, "These are the most out of touch idiots I've ever met. They got $14 million and they're saying it's not enough." Right? That's essentially most of the posts in there. They're all sort of like, "Well, I have this much, but I don't know. I'm a little gun-shy." Because they just they're scared of the future, which is kind of what got them here. And they wanted to have some control over their future and yet they are so controlled by their mind, by their by their own prison they've created. >> would you tell those people? I tell them to let go and let God and go find work you enjoy doing and don't worry about, you know, the dollar amount at this point. Cuz truly they they have they earned their way to financial freedom by all stretches of the imagination. And so, now it's going, "Dude, if you can't learn to live off of $10 million, then you'll never be able to live." And I think truthfully what they're missing is a real purpose in life. Cuz their sole purpose was get to this number. They get to the number and they go, "Well, I guess it needs to be a bigger number cuz I can't let go of the one thing that was keeping me alive, this weird financial goal." So, that's the part that scares me is there's no real foundation other than, "Well, I want to be able to work out more or, you you enjoy travel more." I think you just need a deeper purpose than that and some people avoid having starting families. They avoid getting married. They avoid having kids because they think that is a a deterrent to their financial goal. And what purpose do you recommend for those people? Oh my gosh. I mean, I I think getting married and having kids gives you an immense sense of purpose and it's not to say that if you're single like you don't have purpose, but I think there's a new found sense of purpose that causes forces you to become more selfless and be less inward focused when you've got to you've got to raise these kids and you want to do it right. And what if they already have kids? Cuz it seems like a lot of those posts they already have kids. >> Yeah, if they're if they're married, they have kids, I do think faith plays a big part of it. I think without faith underpinning a lot of this, it does feel a little bit um meaningless. This sort of like capitalistic rat race where here for 70 years, then we're in the grave. So, what's the point of anything? You sort of have an existential crisis if you don't have a bigger picture and um a bigger thing to live for. And so, I think faith plays a big part, family plays a big part, your health plays a big part cuz we see a lot of these people are burnt out, stressed, high blood pressure, out of shape. And so, if you're able to focus on your health, your relationships, your family, your work, and your faith, you are so well-rounded that you're going to have a great life no matter how much money you make or have. How much do you think people should be saving who want to get to that point in their 20s, 30s, 40s? Is there a percentage that you recommend >> For a for like a work optional sort of aggressive savings goal? >> Yeah. Well, I I what I did um is I saved 15% of my income into retirement accounts while aggressively paying down the mortgage with anything left over. So, that was my plan. I'm not saying everyone has to do that, but being completely debt-free in my early 30s then freed me up to go from investing 15% to 50% because I still live the same way. We didn't really increase our lifestyle by much. We may have bought our time back in a few ways, you know, lawn care, a cleaner, whatever it is, but aside from that, I'm still the same George. I don't spend I don't have this like materialistic like I just want more stuff. We really focus all of our energy toward our like buying our house, let's furnish it nicely, but outside of that a vacation's a you know, it's a pipe dream for us right now with an infant toddler and two dogs, one of which is handicapped. You keep bringing up a handicapped dog and I'm just curious. >> time >> What's the handicap? If is if that's like insensitive to ask, I'm sorry. >> No, I I think the dog would be fine with me telling you. Uh he had something called intervertebral disc disease, IVDD, which is fairly common in French bulldogs and other dogs that have a French bulldog. I got two French bulldogs. >> So They're born broken. Okay, when you think about dogs that just don't look like they should exist, French bulldogs are at the top of the list. And vets hate and love these dogs. They hate them because of how they're bred and they have so many issues, breathing issues, hip issues, spine issues, and they love them because it pays for their second home. And so French bulldogs are have common issues like this. So my dog was very athletic, 4 years old, great shape, all of a sudden exploded disc in his spine, lost all function in his back half. So we had to make the hard decision, do we see if it heals on its own or do we do an an expensive surgery to remedy it? They go out and clean the you know That's the hard I thought you were going to say a different hard decision. Of putting him down. Yeah. Well, that's a that's a byproduct that could happen if you don't deal with it. And so we decided to do the surgery. We had about an hour window to decide. I was live on the Ramsey show. My wife's calling me in tears at the emergency vet going, "Hey, they need a decision now because there's a window of time where you can actually do the surgery." And so we did the surgery and it was 8 months of grueling rehab and he's doing actually great now as far as all things considered. He can run and walk. He can't bend his back legs. He kind of does like a just this move on the back. >> That's good. >> But, he you know, he's thriving otherwise. Like he still lives a pretty normal life, which is great. But, that's taken a toll on us emotionally, you know, financially. It's just it's super expensive. >> Why get that breed of dog? Um there's there's some things in life you do knowing that it's not a smart financial decision. And I think dogs fall into that category, but especially dogs with known issues. You buy like a mutt from the you know, the rescue. That dog's going to live forever with no issues. You buy a purebred French bulldog, it's party's over. And so we just both my wife and I love French bulldogs. We love their temperament. We love the way they look and their weirdness, their personality. And so we just got one and then decided it needs a a friend. And so we got another one. And here we are. How much was the surgery? The surgery was $6,000. It's not as bad as I expected. >> horrible. >> That was just the surgery. The scan and anesthesia I think was another $5,000. Oh. And then the rehab costs, the medication costs, that just kept adding to it. So, it's uh it put a hole in our pocket. Luckily we did So, I don't advocate for pet insurance for most people. I think you're better off just putting money away in a savings account and using that as your insurance plan for a pet. But, knowing that these dogs have so many issues, I got sort of a high deductible pet insurance plan. And so they ended up paying the max for us of a five grand back in our bank account. How much was the pet insurance? Uh it's probably a couple hundred bucks a year for that. Oh. So, we made we made out like bandits for this one. But, uh it was still I mean that's what made me feel good. What I didn't want was to have to make the decision as Dave has said on air of like, do you cover it or do you put the dog down? Were those the only options? Because I've seen some dogs that have the wheels on the back and they were able to use their front legs and they have like a the wheels. >> do have those for him to help him sort of rehab on walks, but he doesn't need them to to move. >> Why couldn't he just have that with his lower half not working? Well, there was there was a chance that was a possibility, but we wanted to see if he can get back to where he was. Cuz he's only 4 years old. So, I was like, he still has a lot of life left in him if we can get him get him healed up. And so, I feel like we were on the right side of history there. Deloney wanted me to just He was like, "Dude, I would have not done what you did." Rachel same way. They're both not Even Dave would have said, "I would not have done what you did." >> Really? >> They would have ridden it out and just to see what happens, but they're not going to pay for all this stuff. I feel like it's see what happened. I have feel like a dog's always like a member of the family. It's I agree. And then truthfully, the reason we do the baby steps, the reason I'm so conservative with money is because I don't know what life's going to throw at me. So, when a dog has a situation like this, we have the money sitting there. We don't need to get on another payment plan or put it on a credit card. We take it out of the emergency fund and go, "That sucked, but I'm glad we didn't have to suffer financially, too." And so, it's one of the biggest reasons I advocate for a debt-free life, the savings in the bank, building wealth for the future, is because you have more flexibility and options with whatever life's going to throw at you. So then, in order to retire, let's say someone does want to retire early, how much would they need in a low cost of living, medium cost of living, a high cost of living area? Man, I wish there was a magic number. It'd be so fun to spit it and everyone goes, "This guy crushed it." Uh again, it depends on your lifestyle, your expenses, but if you kind of go How about this? We can kind of go with like a like low, middle, high lifestyle and how much I think is a blanket number I would like to have in an nest egg retiring in like but in your 50s, what are we talking? Or let's do 50. 50 years old. I think it's an easy If you want me to just blanket it, I would say 1 million, 2 million, 3 million would get you very far. That's not to say it's going to cover every situation, every family, every level of household expenses, but I think when you look at the stair step of that, you go, that's a pretty it would take a long time to deplete that if you only took out what you needed. 3 million bucks for most people in a nest egg, they'd be set for life. Now, if you spend 20 grand a month, may not get you that far. But for most people, let's say the average household expenses are between 3 and 7,000 dollars. For most people, that's plenty if they're not, you know, just milking this nest egg. >> Suze Orman says 5 million. That's that would be comforting, but I think to tell someone that they need 5 million dollars by the age of 40 is insane. 50. By 50. Still, that's a that's a very aspirational goal that only personal finance nerds Now, if there's an 18-year-old who watches your channel or my channel, even in their 20s, it's very achievable. If you can make a good income, household income of let's say 80 to 150,000 dollars, you have a great investment rate, you have no consumer debt, you get that mortgage paid off, and then invest that mortgage payment for the rest of your life, you can get there. And I plan on having more than 5 million dollars when I retire. So, it's not to say that I couldn't live on less, but the more I have, the more impact I can have, uh the more I can create generational wealth, the more I can give to my church or nonprofits that I care about. And so, I I think making money has been villainized, and having a ton of money has been put on an unhealthy pedestal. So, if someone's 18, what advice would you give them? Would it be to go to college? Would it be to become a consultant? What would you recommend? Uh I think I would have them figure out the the work they're wired to do, uh first, because that will then show you the path. Cuz for too many people, and I just went to a high school couple weeks ago, and I interviewed all these high schoolers about their plans after school. And it was shocking to me how many people just went, well, I'm going to college cuz I don't know the next step. So, they're just sort of falling into this herd mentality of I go to college cuz I'm told that's going to be my best path. When the truth is it's not, especially in 2026. As you know, most people want to be YouTubers. You don't need a college degree to be a YouTuber. It probably won't even help you at that point. You're probably better off spending that 4 years creating content than sitting in a classroom. And so, depending on what you want to do, college might be the next step. It might be trades. It might be an entrepreneurial, you know, venture. Uh but I do think the faster you know the work you're wired to do, the faster you can fail when you're young, the better off you're going to be. Cuz too many people wait until they're in their 30s, 40s to figure out, "Man, I really hate this." Well, I would I hope you would figure that out at 22 instead of 42. You save You will save yourself a whole lot of time and heartache. But the 18-year-olds I talk to, the number one question they have is, "How do I get a million dollars by 25?" That's my most viral TikTok. Was a call on the show. 18-year-old calls in says, "I want to turn 100 grand into a million by the time I'm 25." And I said, "Why?" And then he he backed out. He went, "Ah, it was just a question. Uh Well, no, I just want to know truthfully why. And at the heart of it, they're all scared that they'll never get ahead, they'll never build wealth, they'll never own a home. Therefore, they need to do something crazy risky and high-leverage in order to make a lot of money now because they're never going to have it. And that's the heart of it. If you ask someone why or and then what, they generally don't have an answer after one or two rounds of that. >> Here's an interesting Let's just say he had to do it. He had to turn 100 grand into a million at 25. Okay. How would you do it? >> Go make a lot of money and sock a lot of it away. How would you make a lot of money? Let's just say his life depended on it. He turns 26 and he doesn't have a million. >> I think starting a business is the best path for a young person to make a lot of money quickly. Because I don't know a lot of companies looking to hire an 18-year-old unless they're some kind of prodigy working in tech or AI who's going to pay them $200,000. But, you can make $200,000 with a lawn care business at 18, and I've met those people. They're crushing it. So, find a a business that is not sexy, that is not highly promoted on TikTok, and go, "All right, how do I scale this thing with the time that I have in a smart way that doesn't involve debt?" And the people that do it debt-free just have a much They have much more room to play with. And the people that are highly leveraged, well, now they just own a job with a bunch of payments on the other side. But, if you can scale this thing, hire a couple guys under you to start doing the lawn care, you scale into Christmas lights during the winter, you start to get resourceful, you can make money in these little niches over here and compete with the big guys. If someone were to listen to every single thing you tell them to do, let's say you called them every single morning for 5 minutes, you're like, "Do this, do this, do this, do this." They're 18, they want to be a millionaire by 25. What's the likelihood of them doing that? The likelihood, okay, give them 7 years. Now, this is largely dependent on their income, because we always say your income is your greatest wealth-building tool. So, making $40,000, you're not going to get there from 18 to 25 to a million. I mean, it's a $900,000 gap we're talking about in 7 years. That's over $100,000 a year you need to be putting away or growing for you. So, I think it's just a it's a terrible goal. And so, my number one thing with that person would be to adjust their goal, not to help them get to the number. >> But, let's just say like if if you could put your mind into the mind of an 18-year-old, uh what's the likelihood that they could go to becoming a millionaire in 7 years? Likelihood, I would say 10%. If they called me every day? Every single day, 5 minutes with you. And you just or however long, you know, if you said, "Hey, today I want you to spend 14 hours going door-to-door trying to sell this. And then once you have this money, report back to me how much money you have, I'll tell you exactly how to reinvest it." Okay, that you only made this much. We're going to try doing this. Do this. Study this. Read this book. And if they just listen to every single thing and they needed, let's say, 8 hours to sleep, 2 hours for taking a break. >> Hormozi for this. They need to scale 100x. >> I'm just I'm just curious to get to the likelihood that they become And they really followed it. Like they're exactly to a T. And they're motivated every day. >> Yep. I would give it 40%. Oh. 40%. The reason I say 40% not 50% is because there is an element of just the person and randomness. No, let's say the person listened to every single thing you said. Yeah, but even then. Okay, so they get into like they get into an accident. Yes. >> There could be like random things that just come up that that I'm not equipped to handle, either. So, I would say a 40%. I'd I'd be confident >> Well, well, the key is they would need to be cuz I'm not a guy who's going to I'm not a betting man. So, most people would say leverage, take a bunch of risks, and hopefully it works out. I'm going to go I'm going to be the the tortoise instead of the hare and go, "Well, what is a six-figure job or business you could create and then sock away that level of income. Live off 20%, 30% of that. Keep living so frugally and sock it away." Which again, is not a good quality of life, which is why I would not recommend it. I would go, "Hey, what's behind this? What happens at 25 with a million dollars? What then?" You know what? You probably don't have an answer. >> I take it to 90% if I could have more than 5 minutes a day with them. You can have as much time as you want. Wiseness a new channel, Graham. You should start this series. No, because I we would do social media consulting. And I would have this person non-stop throughout the day creating content. Not creating content. Finding people who need social media consulting, like corporations. >> pay this person or going to business with them. It's not shark tank. >> coach them. They can't come to me and say like, "Graham, what do I say? They need a thumbnail. What do you think about this thumbnail?" You can't get Well, they then they would just be marketing Graham. No, that's you're destroying the premise because then they could say, "Oh yeah, I'm basically Graham. I'll just ask Graham." >> of this random hypothetical. Come on, man. I'll just ask Graham, you know, and cuz I'm Graham's then it's back down at 40%. Okay. That's interesting. Yeah, it's hard it's hard to answer because I think it's just a a useless goal. Cuz I think once you have a million dollars at 25, your life is not necessarily better. You probably have no relationships at that point because all you did was grind. So, now you're just single, no friends with some money, and you probably have bought some nice things along the way. Let's be honest. >> But you could make friends at any age. And to be fair, a lot of the people I hung out with from 20 to 25, I never see them. None of it really mattered. And now I have great friends. >> Now you have at least one friend. >> No, I have one friend. And a wife. And a wife, and two cats, and a dog. >> worth a hundred non-quality friends. >> Yeah. That math hurts my head, but I'll go with it. I'll go with it. Yeah, I just I just think that that person has their their goals out of order. I would rather them go, "What is a problem in the world that I would love to solve?" That's a much better question to ask than how much money can I make or how do I get to a certain number. That number needs to be a byproduct of something that you added to as far as value to someone or a group of people. And that we talk about that at Ramsey. One of our core values is if you help enough people, you don't have to worry about money. That's what Dave's done. I mean, most of our content's free. We're not asking you for money at every turn. You could buy a course or a book, but it's not like we gatekeep it. See, I agree with that, but my mindset was always from 18 to 30, you head down work. You sacrifice everything you don't need, and you just head down work because the value of money when you're 20 years old is so high compared to the value of that same dollar at 50. When you're 20, >> the math on it. At 20 years old, every dollar you invest is a 73x return at 65. So, $1 at 20 turns into $73 at 65. At what rate of return? That's, I believe, 9 or 10%. Now, when you invest that same dollar at 55, maybe a 4x return if you're lucky at 65. So, you can see from 73x it starts to go down, down, down over time because you have less time for compound growth to work its magic. >> Yeah. So, that's why I always thought that it didn't matter if you see friends or not. It doesn't matter if you're not going on vacations cuz you could do it when you're 32. Like, the difference of experience, I think, between 25 and like 35 very little. Like, I still feel internally 25. Yeah, I mean, you look at great skin care. That really helps. Macy's got me moisturizing. Wow. >> Yeah, she's got this She's got all these serums. Dude, marriage will do that I will say I got a huge glow up when I got married. There were so many things I didn't know were wrong with me until my wife lovingly pointed them out and said, "We can fix that." >> What was the biggest one? Hair was one thing. I think I upped the hair. Clothing was a huge one. I was not dressing very well when I met her and she helped me step up that game. Um my teeth. I think I was using a sort of mouthwash that was making my teeth sort of have a almost like dark lines in between each tooth. Plaque. It wasn't plaque though. It was like I Listerined too much. And it affected my So, all that stuff. Uh glasses, I got different glasses. That really helped. >> nice. They're a little more modern that fit my face better. All of that stuff. So, marriage will do that. So, get ready, Jack. One day you're going to have the glow up nobody expected. You're going to be looks maxing. I appreciate that. >> Have you interviewed that guy, by the way? >> Yeah. Yeah, Jack has ascended a little bit over the last month and a half. >> What was he nice to talk to? Uh yeah. He's very friendly. Uh he's socially interesting, I would say. Like, it's a nice way to put it. I was just curious. I just think that I don't I'm a like I don't get in that world. Like the manosphere that looks like I have to be told by Gen Z people what's happening right now and it makes me feel like a boomer, but I just think there's a there's a level of just vanity and grossness and flexing that's happening right now in culture that I'm just not at all interested in. I noticed that you were mogging us when we came in. >> know what that means, but it sounds like it's a bad thing that I did. It's not a bad thing. It's just it is what it is. You were mogging Jack and I. What does that mean? Can you even give me the definition of mogging? >> Yeah, you were kind of like one-upping us. It's like you're kind of showing >> Oh, like a little >> like status a little bit like with the way you were dressed. I didn't mean to. I think you guys just usually generally underdress. That's all. Yeah. >> So it wasn't me flexing. >> [laughter] >> But you guys look great, honestly. And you wore my jacket on my YouTube channel when you did my show. Yeah. Are you wearing socks? Uh I'm a no show guy, which I know is a big uh faux pas in the Gen Z world. >> It is. I'm told that no show socks have not been cool for 10 years. Correct. >> But I simply refuse to wear thick white socks in the summertime or when it's warm out here in Tennessee. But you'll wear a jacket. Yeah, I'm indoors. >> So what is your current portfolio look like? This episode is in partnership with Airbnb. So Graham and I just wrapped up a trip. We were in Austin for a few days. We filmed episodes with Togi, Chris Kamello, and Caleb Hammer. And honestly, every time we're on the road, we're staying at homes on Airbnb. It's just become the default. And here's the thing most people don't think about. When you're the one traveling, your place back home is just sitting there empty. And that's a real missed opportunity. Whether you're gone for a long weekend or a few weeks, you can list your space on Airbnb and let it work for you while you're away. If you've ever thought about hosting, but weren't sure how to manage everything from the road, Airbnb now has the co-host network. You can connect with a vetted local co-host who has real hosting experience and can take care of the day-to-day for you. A co-host can manage reservations, handle guest communication, and even provide on-site support so you don't have to think about it while you're traveling. So instead of your home sitting empty, you could be generating some extra cash whether that helps you cover the next trip, your flights, or just goes towards something that you've been putting off at home. I actually listed a spare room in my house on Airbnb and I was genuinely so surprised how easy it was to set up, how seamless the entire process was, and it actually made me some pretty good money. I would actually recommend this to anyone out there that wants to make a little extra cash on the side. It's honestly phenomenal. If you're thinking about hosting but want some help getting started, find a co-host at airbnb.com /host. When Jack and I started the AS Coffee Hour in the very beginning, we were winging it. We were trying to figure out everything ourselves and that's why if you're starting or growing your own business, you get it and how frustrating that could be. But that is why our sponsor Shopify is so incredibly helpful. Realistically, you probably already know what Shopify is, but if you don't, Shopify is essentially an all-in-one business platform. They support millions of businesses worldwide from huge brands like Mattel and Gymshark to entrepreneurs who are just getting started. And here's a fun fact, if you shop online in the US, there's a really good chance it was actually on a Shopify store because they power about 10% of all e-commerce in America. One of the best things about Shopify is that they give you access to a complete design studio with hundreds of ready-to-use templates to build a beautiful online store that perfectly matches your brand. There's no coding needed and their AI tools even help you write product descriptions and enhance your product photos. Shopify also makes marketing simple with easy-to-use email and social media campaigns helping you connect with customers wherever they're scrolling. And it gets even better because they handle literally everything from inventory to shipping to returns so you can focus just on the strategy and the important stuff of your business while they handle all of the complicated back work stuff that you do not want to deal with. So start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing all you got to do to get started is to sign up for their $1 a month trial when you go to shopify.com/ich. Again, that is shopify.com/ich, shopify.com/ich. The link is also down below in the description. Thanks again to Shopify for sponsoring this episode. What does your current portfolio look like? The same as it always was. It's the home, my >> Let's talk percentages. Uh the home is probably let's see. The home is probably about half of my entire net worth and then the investments between my wife and I's retirement, checking, savings, all of that is probably another half. And then what do the investments look like? Uh my we have My wife now stays at home, so she had a 401k at Ramsey and we rolled those over to IRAs. A traditional IRA for the traditional side, Roth IRA for the Roth side. So, we have that just sitting there. I've got my 401k at Ramsey. I have an IRA from a a rollover from my app. >> Uh in mutual funds. I do have it in a brokerage account that's non-retirement, that's invested in, you know, Vanguard index funds. So, that's pretty That's the only thing that's not Do you do international index funds? Do you do bonds, treasuries, anything? I don't do bonds or treasuries. I'm an equities man. Uh so, I like to go 100% equities. I think it's a the asset allocation theory is kind of bunk and the idea that I need to have 40% in bonds is is wild. >> do you have in cash? Cash, um probably close to 10%. And do you buy the dip or do you just dollar cost average? Um I dollar cost average across investments. I'm a I like to do things monthly. I might like fund a Roth IRA, for example, you know, in one fell swoop, but other than that, I have I like to have things automated so that my human brain can't mess with it. So, for example, I have my kids' 529 college savings plans. I automate investments to that. I automate the investments to my brokerage account so that the money's gone. Like paycheck hits, the money disappears. I'm basically living like I'm broke, which is great. I keep only as much as I need for household expenses in checking. How much Bitcoin do you have? Currently, uh close to zero. And by close to I mean I have zero. I don't even truthfully, I don't even know how to buy it. You could buy the ETF. That still sounds like work to me. Like if you gave me the choice of a S&P 500 index fund or a Bitcoin ETF, I'm going to go index fund every time cuz it's the one that I understand. I understand what's behind it. There's 500 companies. They're weighted. There's market caps. Bitcoin is based on how we all feel about it. >> you one share of IBIT? You can do that. Are you going to donate it to me? How does that work? >> Yes. No, I would just Venmo you >> enough to buy What's one share cost? >> 40 bucks. And what's that going to do for me? Now you could say you have a little Bitcoin exposure. Oh, okay. So it's the flex for me. Yeah. >> people ask, I'm going to say, "Yeah, I got a little Bitcoin." How much? >> Grandpa bought me some. >> Grandpa bought me 40 bucks. It was a gift from a friend. Would you take it? >> Who am I Who am I to say no? I'm not one to block a blessing. So if you want to give me $40, sure. But with the express intent that you have to buy one share of IBIT. Yeah, if you show me how to do it. I don't even know how to create a wallet and all that. >> No, no, no, no, no. You don't need a wallet. It's an ETF. It's traded on any brokerage. Any brokerage. It's IBIT is the ticker. So I can go to Vanguard and and purchase it. Okay, great. IBIT. IBIT. You can. Okay. Great. $40. Deal? Deal. So now >> Cool. George owns Bitcoin. Yeah, there we go. Holy cow, we just convinced you to buy Bitcoin here on the podcast. Well, technically Grandpa bought Bitcoin. Well, I'm just holding it. >> You own Bitcoin now. Yeah, I guess so. I don't even know what IBIT is. It just represents Bitcoin. >> Yes, it's an ETF. So it's a fractionalized ownership of Bitcoin, but as a stock. So do I actually own Bitcoin or just move up at the same price Bitcoin does? >> Yeah, you own the stock. You own the company that owns Bitcoin. You're not directly buying the Bitcoin itself. >> Bitcoin? I thought it was not owned by anybody. >> is Blackrock. Well, now I'm surprised to hear that. >> fund. >> Sounds like I'm in with the mafia. Well, there's FBTC, too, but that's $70. So, I picked IBIT. It's a >> willing to spring the 70 for me? Do you want to split it, Jack? It'd be a nice coffee hour expense. >> rather have I mean, this video is going to produce more than $70 for you guys. >> Well, maybe there were expenses flying out here, you know, You know how much our flights were going back to Vegas? Let me guess. Let me guess. Let me guess. Just one way? One way for two people. One way for two people. Okay, from Nashville to Vegas, one way, what airline? Southwest. I'm going to go >> Total. Total. It was $780. $1,200. You got ripped, man. You got ripped. Gas prices and flights are Jet fuel cost? Yep. I think they knew it was your account on Southwest and they Mhm. He's got the money. Probably. So, that's why we have to settle for IBIT. Yeah, I get it. I get it. I got to save money where we can. No, I'm fine with that. I'm again, I'm not anti-crypto. I just don't understand it enough and I'm not interested enough to be a part of it and track it knowing that it's 24/7. It's not There's nothing underlying in it other than maybe utility in the future. That's it. I mean, so I like to know, hey, Apple just released the iPhone 17 and a new MacBook and their revenue went up and therefore the share price went up and therefore I benefited from that. That I can understand. And I love Warren Buffett's take that he wouldn't buy all the Bitcoin in the world for $25. He said that. I don't know if it's still true, but I respect the man for having some principles going, "It doesn't produce anything." He's like, "What would I do with it?" Would you buy all the Bitcoin in the world for $25? >> I would, yeah, 100%. Okay, there we go. If you said no, that's really going to push back at You got me with your hypotheticals. If someone offered all the Bitcoin in the world, which I assume is like trillions of dollars at this point, I would I would take it for $25. >> crashes. It's worthless and they say you could buy all of it for $25. Yeah, I would do that. Okay. I mean, that's that's DoorDash money. Good. Wouldn't anybody, other than Warren Buffett? Cuz he already has billions. He's fine. >> take a billion-dollar loan at negative 10% interest. >> It's a totally different process. That's debt. That's borrowing money. This is money I actually have to purchase something. So, that's the difference maker. Happily, I will I will buy things with my own money. But borrowing money to get anything, not interested. One thing I just realized right now, which I think is very funny, is this shirt I purchased with my Saks Fifth Avenue credit that I get from the MX Platinum. >> Look at you. >> Thank you. And these pants I purchased with my Lululemon credit that I get with the MX Platinum. And I didn't even do that on purpose. You know who loves that right now? Saks Fifth Avenue and Lululemon, which is why they paid MX good money Also, these pants were like $130, and my credit was 75. So, I paid an additional, you know, 70 bucks. Like costume. I'm just being honest. And this was also more than 50 bucks. >> Well, plus we got the annual fee Saks Fifth. You know, what's the annual fee on that card? 75. 900 or something. So, now we're already over a thousand bucks that we've we've paid for the pleasure of getting some credits. That you then had to use, cuz you you wouldn't have shopped at Saks Fifth Avenue. You could have got that on Amazon for a fraction of the price. This? Yeah. Well, how much did you pay for that jacket? I didn't pay for it. How much did you pay for that shirt? This is an old Everlane shirt, probably 20 bucks, maybe. >> Those pants? Probably another 50 bucks. The socks? $2. Shoes? $60. Glasses? I'm wearing some money, right? Warby Parkers, 100 Oh, I'm high index, so they charge you more for the pleasure. Cuz otherwise, I'd have lenses this thick, so maybe 180 bucks. Gram? Free. $2. Wow. >> Free. Ding, ding, ding. So, Jack is the high roller here. Well, I also Well, yeah. If you account for the credits, I mean, this was a Christmas present. These were free. I do like the pickleball socks. That really brings the outfit together. >> Thank you. And I I actually was hoping that they weren't going to show on camera, but, you know. I feel like you wear those socks to show. You want to show them off. No. No, I I my I did a purge of my socks lately, and these were some of them ones that I kept and just happened to pack them. Wow. Well, I'm glad we're all pretty frugal with our with our clothing. What do you waste your money on? If you If like what other people would say that I waste money on? >> Sure. Oh, man. That's a tough one. If you looked at my bank statement, you would say we waste money on our dogs. 100%. They would say it's a waste of money to spend money on their specialized food. Uh, we send them to like our friend's house for like a daycare a couple times a week. We spend money at the vet, you know, rehab visits, acupuncture, all of that stuff. People would say that is a waste of money. And I go, "There's about five, six creatures that I am that I really care about on this Earth, and my family and dogs are that are in there." If you came into financial hardship, would you sell your dogs? Would I sell my dogs if I came into financial hardship? If it was um like life or death or like to avoid bankruptcy, I still don't think I would. I would find a way to make money. But, people should sell their horse. >> hardship I [laughter] Here's Well, here's the good news. I physically There is zero reasons I would ever be able to go into debt. You know what I mean? Like financial hardship I'm not going to need to borrow money ever. And so, that's a again a crazy hypothetical, but if my dog was worth $20,000, $25,000, and I was $135,000 in consumer debt, would I, knowing that horses are to be bought and sold on the open market? Absolutely. Now, would I maybe a rehoming fee temporarily while we got our feet, you you on back on track? I might do that. >> Now that the horse thing has ran its course, how do you feel about it? >> [laughter] >> As pun intended. >> Yeah, the horse ran I think I'm on the right side of history if you understood the context of that call. I think on the what I said I I wish I could take back a thousand times. The cruelty >> Katie called into the show, 136 grand in debt, rural area in Kentucky, working for the USDA making 36 grand a year, and I was doing the math going she's never going to get out of this cuz she's like well I can't move it's a rural area I have no plans on going anywhere I'm stuck here because of my horse. And I finally find out the horses were 25 grand. It's a prize-winning horse. And so finally the end of the call after she hit us with excuse after excuse of why she couldn't take any of our advice I said >> Katie, I'm going to give you a hard challenge. Could you sell the horse? And she went I've had her for 11 years and I like Katie the horse doesn't even know your name and then we went to break. So the part that I wish she could take back was the cruelty in which I threw out the horse doesn't even know your name. I thought a lot of people agreed with you. There was a a small subset. The large majority were in shock at what I said and how I said it. I thought it was hilarious. >> But I think over time people are more on my side. Which I appreciate. >> The thing is if Hammer was on that call >> Did she sell it? Well when you look at the horse as as an asset which by the way if you are racing your horse for profit, you can't tell me it's just a family member. Okay, I don't race my dog for profit and then try to claim that you know, it's a family member. So that's the difference maker is horses do go for a million dollars if it's a prize-winning horse for the Derby or whatever. My dog barely can walk and so you know, it's not really something anybody would want. But French bulldogs you know, if you go out in the open market and try to buy one from a breeder you're paying three grand four grand five grand. We have a member of this community is called the index and he breeds horses and I've seen the prices that he gets for some of these horses. He sold one recently. I think it was like 400 grand. And they go to auction. But they have a soul. How could he do that to that poor horse? That's a show horse. All horses can be show horses if you put them in a show. Is Katie doing okay now? Did she end up selling the horse? >> Uh she's doing better. There was a lot of backstory that she kind of filled me in on um but she is chipping away at the debt still. This was years ago and she's still in the debt. To my to my credit. Could have sold the horse and been out of debt by now probably. But >> Did the horse go up or down in value? I don't know. I don't know how I need to ask her about that if she's been tracking the value of said horse. You know, you got to get a horse appraisal I imagine. Which that's a job. Somebody's out there appraising horses. Maybe that's what the 18-year-old should be doing. >> Don't tell me there's not some opportunity out there. There's no jobs out there. Go appraise a horse. >> Dude, an AI horse consultant. Grant Cardone, get him on the line. I think you need to go spend more time around horses. I think you need to to get a connection >> going to the Renaissance Fair here in Nashville uh coming up. So I'm going to have to meet some horses. >> with horses. I do have a fear an irrational fear that I'm going to get bucked by a horse to my untimely death. >> That's that there's no way that has nothing to do with you telling this lady to sell her horse. I just think if it happens, we're all going to go kind of had it coming. >> [laughter] >> It was Final Destination. So on the topic of controversy because that horse issue was a controversy. People online are making crazy speculations of what's going on with Ken Coleman. Oh, I love it. He's super weird. >> So now we're all curious. We're sitting in in his studio for his old show Front Row Seat. What happened to Ken Coleman? Uh the the only true story which at this point, who's going to believe me when they already have a narrative in their mind that uh something crazy happened. I've known Ken longer than most people in this building. I've known him since 2010. We were friends before he even worked at Ramsey. And we were really good friends when he was here. And he truly did not see this opportunity coming. And if you followed Ken's content, you know that he preaches the proximity principle. That to do the work you want to do, you get around the people doing it. And uh his whole thing was get better, move up, lead well. And because Ken is such a sharp guy, that he had a lot of friends. And those friends were entrepreneurs and business owners. And they moved over here. And now they're at this company. And so he tapped Ken on the shoulder for this opportunity to become kind of an executive, you know, C-suite, SVP of communications for this tech software company. This caught Ken off guard. He wasn't expecting it. And the more time went on, you know, a month or two of discussions, conversations, praying about it, talking to his wife, he realized that it was an opportunity that was a once-in-a-lifetime generational wealth-building thing for his family that he just couldn't pass up. And Ken loves a challenge if you know Ken. And his you know, he had a great, what, 12 12-year run here? Going from host to personality, multiple shows, carrying Ramsey show and live events and books and products that have done really well. So there was no animosity. He had a great 2-hour meeting with Dave at his house. And you know, there was there was tears. There was hugs. He's still going to be a family friend to Dave's. Um and I know that's the least exciting story I could tell. >> So I've seen I've seen wild controversies online. There were these theories. >> Give me the craziest ones. I'm curious. >> was declining and so Dave Ramsey internally is bleeding so much money. Oh, that's hilarious. >> him. And that Well, Ken has the most successful digital product in the Ramsey store. So that's just already like a debunk. His uh Find the Work You're Wired to Do, the Get Clear Career Assessment, is top-selling product. Okay, well apparently Ramsey Solutions was bleeding money, couldn't afford to keep the show going. He was demoted. That's hilarious. >> [laughter] >> And because he was demoted, uh he ended up taking another opportunity to be able to leave on his own terms instead of getting fired. Wow, so he let him go with dignity is what happened because he was such a a money loss for the company. No, that would have been a cooler story, though. That would have been a lot more exciting than what actually happened. I'm curious, why can he not just pop in once a week to film something? Uh well, I mean, when you're no longer employed, we're an all in or all out company. We're 40 hours a week. You are representing this company and this brand, and so it gets too messy when you're now working for another company full-time and then just popping in. I'd be mad cuz I'm like, well, I don't get to pop in. I got to be here doing this show with you guys. I'm working out here. But, uh Ken will remain a dear, dear friend. We were texting the other day. I I asked him if he's making new friends at work and if there are any So, he's already He's already there. Yeah. He He had a two a weekend gap, if that, a day gap before jumping onto the new It's just the way the timing worked out. So, he wrapped up some great events that we did, Ramsey Show lives, wrapped up a speaking gig, and um it was sign off, but he's still going to always be a pal of mine. >> Who's going to take his place? >> moving, so he's still here. Who's going to take his place? Uh nobody. We're not backfilling his role. It was He was a once a like a It This role was created for him because of his passion. So, it's not like a a field we're just trying to fill to fill, if that makes sense. But, if the right person came along and they had a similar thing, who knows? You know, we're always hiring. Would you guys hire Caleb Hammer? I would say if if hell froze over, we would consider it. I think Caleb and Dave are so at odds with their principles, their values, their faith, the way they carry themselves, their mission, their goals, that it would not make sense. To work here, you have to have a similar like-mind, similar values, and Caleb just doesn't have those. It's not a knock against Caleb, but you know, we don't have that that type of content around here, and we have a different mission. When you say that type of content, what is the main thing you're thinking of? I would say the the cussing, it's not family-friendly. Uh we have a a set of values that are are faith-based that I think would be jarring for Caleb to then like adhere to or grapple with in this building. And our mission is not to like scale at all costs, which I think Caleb is just he's a young entrepreneurial guy, he wants to scale and there's not much stopping him. And this place has been around for 30-something years, we have a thousand people, we represent something kind of bigger than us and we're not willing to you know, kind of water that down to get more clicks and views, which Caleb would obviously get. The guy crushes it, but to us it's not worth it and that's why we don't do that style of content. What do you think Caleb is doing right? What he's doing right? I mean, creating crazy engaging content while sneaking in the teaching. So he's leaning into the edutainment where he's teaching about taxes while yelling at the person and you just learned about how tax brackets work in the meantime. That I think he does really well. But uh I can't watch the content cuz I have children at home and so I'd have to have headphones on at all times to engage in any of it. At what age would you let your kids watch Caleb Hammer? Oh gosh, I would I would I wouldn't. Left to my own devices, I wouldn't. Now if they go off and they're doing their own thing and they choose I you know, at some point you can't control what they're going to watch on the internet. I hope I would hope I raised them enough to go, "Hey, you don't want that kind of filth in your brain, you know?" And I was on Caleb's show. I left needing to take a shower after that. It was just woof. You know, I'm I'm too uh much of a prude I guess to be in that world. So you know, my my kids watch Blippi and I already don't like that. What do you think we can improve on? I think you guys, what you've done well is sort of like let anybody in, which is really nice that you've it's an open forum essentially. You guys stay very curious. I think what you could do is have a have a sort of a stance. Like have a foundational principles that you got that's clear to the audience of here's what we believe and therefore that's the basis for the discussion. I'm so fluid with a lot of these things though that I don't have like very firm beliefs on a lot of things and I'm open to hearing other people >> I can convince you to cut up all of your credit cards and pay off all of your debt. >> you could convince me. I'm not saying you will convince me, but you theoretically could convince me. Hmm. If I if I hear another viewpoint that I'm like, wait a second, that actually makes a lot of sense. Maybe I'm incorrect. Graham is oddly fluid sometimes, but also I would say you're also very hard-headed and very stubborn >> you you are you're a sucker for logic and that's it's all about the logic, right? >> why I think I I don't know what I don't know. >> think the part the the I guess the blind side if there was one would be the reality and emotional and psychological side of the principles that we teach. That's the hard part to just like rattle out there of like, well, you'd feel better if you didn't have a mortgage. Like, yeah, but I could make a hundred thousand dollars if I kept it. I'm like, well, yeah, but you'd feel better. Like psychologically, emotionally. I feel better with a hundred grand though. That's the question mark. So you're not willing to try it to see what it's like. Because I can't reverse that. Like once I pay off the 2.875% mortgage >> guy. You'll figure it out. You'll arbitrage it. You'll box spread it. I can't get that >> call it. >> I can't get that again. See, that's that's a that's a short-sided mentality that's going to limit you in life. Think big. I think thinking big is not paying off the mortgage. Jack, agree, disagree? I think if in a perfect world, yes, it makes more sense to not pay it off. I agree. Cuz I think one is subject to like you're you're adding a layer of complexity, which is someone's emotions and feelings. If you remove that and it's just By perfect world, you mean if you could control every single variable in your life without fail? Then it works. Yeah, I would say in a vacuum, it makes more sense to take on the debt. Would you say we exist outside of a vacuum? Yeah, and it also depends like how far you want to expand outside of that vacuum. So, like, you know, if you're going to take go 10 layers deep, you know, and you add complexities in your life, and then you add emotions, and you add this, and you add add that, and you add maybe someone who has a more flippant nature, and they were raised a certain way, then, you know, they have they have addictive personality, then then yeah, like it it doesn't make sense, but I don't think that it's necessarily black or white. I think that like it depends on how many of your variables you can control. For example, for me, I do not even check my portfolio daily. Like I don't do that. I don't stay super close to my money. I don't idolize money. I just try to do whatever I think is the most rational thing. And so, for me, I I'll keep my sub 3% interest rate debt because it just makes sense, and I'm aggressively investing into the market. I don't check my accounts daily. I don't I don't have like some crazy theme that I try to adhere to in my portfolio. Um and it's worked out very well for me. And I I agree with the math, the math agrees with me, but I'm also like weird cuz I'm a little sociopathic in that sense. Like I just I don't care as much, I think. Yeah, well, we can agree on that, that he's sociopathic. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, exactly. >> way to wrap. Yeah. Ending on Jack as a sociopath. That's your tag. >> One last question for you, though. Yeah. Thumbs up, thumbs down, selling a covered call. I don't even know enough about that to give you yes or no, but I'm going to say no because I don't know how to do it. >> think it's possible that Jack would be able to make 3% a week selling covered calls? >> Not consistently. How do you know that? >> Because if he could, everybody would be doing it. >> And it's so easy to do the math. Well, if I just sports bet, I make 5% per day. If that compounds, I'll have a million dollars by the end of the year. The problem is the house always wins and there's still risk involved and you're not going to bat a thousand in the in the financial world. And so therefore I think it's a simpler I'd rather just leave the money in an index fund and eventually you'll have enough. And even paying off the mortgage, to your point let's just say you're going to have plenty of money even if you pay off the mortgage, you're going to have more money than you could ever spend in a lifetime. What's the point of having a little extra money right now? You have plenty. Well, if I had all of the money in the world then I would pay off the mortgage. Yeah. But do you have enough to pay it off right now? Uh yep. So why won't you? Because I don't have all of the money in the world. What happens if you pay off the mortgage right now? Are you broke? No, I'm not broke. The The way that I see it is that there are certain like tiers of wealth and once you check those boxes, once you elevate to that level, let's just say a net worth of five million dollars. Once you hit five million, then you have a new tier of FU money. It's not quite FU money, but it's the amount of money that you need in order to raise a family of four comfortably in most locations in the world, right? And so like I kind of want to race to this this new tier and then once I get there, I'll be selfish or selfish enough to pay off my mortgage because that reduces the emotional toll of having a mortgage. I'll be selfish enough to spend a little bit more on clothes, to do other things that I wouldn't normally do. But right now I feel like I need to be a little bit more selfless and do the thing that might be a little bit more uncomfortable to be financially advantageous to then get to that point of being able to take care of my family better. Okay, we'll play back the clip. He said once he gets there you'll do it. Pay off my mortgage? >> Five million dollar net worth, you'll pay off the >> not pay it off at five million. You just told me you would. >> Well, I would start enjoying other things, yeah. You just told me if you had if you got to this point then you would do it. No, I said all of the money in the world. No, you said five. >> the way that I >> say five. That's a rat. Did I say five? Did I say five? I said five but that was Cuz I said all of the money I said there are different tiers, once you hit five This is sociopathic behavior. Wow. Well, that's logical. Is that how we end this episode? That's how you want to wrap? We can tell them about our credit idea, Jack. No, I don't want to hear about that. I'm not going to invest. I'm not your shark tank. >> want to say it's going to It's It's really good. >> a week if you invest. You couldn't tempt me. Everything you guys are saying is just making me want to run the other way. >> equity? In Ice Coffee Hour? No, in our credit idea. Yikes, no. I'll take equity in Ice Coffee Hour. Well, if you want to check out our credit startup, guys. We're going to leave it more mysterious. It's incredible. Check out my debit startup. >> It's in the description. You're going to click it to see what it is. I don't cosign any of this, by the way. George does not cosign. George, thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you, man. Thank you, guys, so much. Appreciate it, guys. Thanks. By the way, if you enjoyed this episode, we just posted our next one early for members. So, if you click the join button, you could literally begin watching our next episode right now. Really hope you enjoy it.