Gary Neville: From Football Legend To Building A Business Empire | E170

That's making me a little bit upset. Fantastic. Incredible, man. It's the owners of that business. It's really simple. Joke. I don't think anyone can believe it. One of the things that people don't [music] know about you is just the scale of your business portfolio. It's quite honestly mental. The only thing you can ever do in life is work as hard as you possibly can and never give in. What is the cost? I basically collapsed to the floor and had a fit. I went to hospital, had checks, and [music] then found that I need to slow down a little bit. And I'd stopped doing the things that kept me well. And I'd just run myself into the ground. So, I knew that that that point then I needed to see somebody. Manchester United are failing. I do feel sorry for the current players, and that won't go down well with a lot of Man United fans. These players go out onto the pitch now, they feel alone. But that's where I am a little bit critical of Cristiano. You're the star. Now's not a time to throw your arms around. Now's the time [music] to make sure you lead those people. Resilience and robustness and hard work can be taught and learned. I don't [music] think it's something you're born with. The minute I joined at 11 to the minute I left at 36, Man [music] United got everything out of me. Everything. Of all the people I always talk about having the influence on my life, [music] I never mention my mom and her mom and dad. They're far better people than I [music] am. That's making me a little bit upset. So, without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening. But if you are, then please keep this to yourself. [music] We are a normal working-class family. There are no famous sporting ancestors in our in our family. Yet, somehow we won a combined 218 caps for our country at football and netball between us. Tracey Neville MBE, my sister, went twice to the Commonwealth Games and World Championships, representing England 74 times and coached the national team. How and why is that possible? That three siblings in a family reach sport sporting greatness when there isn't a long lineage of, you know, the granddad was at Manchester United, this person was at this club, and they opened doors for me. I don't know, really. I I I I'll start at the end because I was having a conversation yesterday about um It was actually how long should you take off after you've had a baby as a couple, whether it be the the man or the woman. And I was thinking about my sister, and she took like two or three weeks off, and then she was back at it. And also my father passed away 7 years ago, and on the morning of his funeral, I went and presented uh our project St. Michael's at a council meeting, and then went and got ready at home and went to his funeral straight after it. And someone said to me, "It's not normal that." Uh uh And my sister my dad passed away in Australia whilst he was whilst he was watching my sister play for the Commonwealth Games. And me and my brother flew straight over there. My sister was still coaching the team. She never broke stride. And he was on a ventilator keeping him alive even though he'd actually, to be fair, passed away. And they were just waiting for us to get over. The day after we got there, my sister said, "I've got a game tomorrow. We can't pronounce that he's actually dead until after I've finished the game and I come back to the hospital." And when I think of that, that's the end I suppose in terms of that sort of that feeling of just that drive, that commitment to what we do. I I I People say it's not normal. Someone said to me say it's not normal that that we would continue our lives irrespective of And that probably came from my dad and from my mom. But I think of it as in different layers for me personally. I don't know what it was like for my sister or my brother, but for me personally, I think of it as being The first layer was my mom and dad. That love for sport, that commitment to get there early to do things. My dad used to say, "Get up early, get there early, get your job done." And then when I got to United, I'm hit by Nobby Stiles, Brian Kidd, you know, Man United European Cup winners of 1968, and then Eric Harrison, a northern tough Yorkshireman who every single day drilled us about what it was to be a Man United player. And then you're exposed to Sir Alex Ferguson and Roy Keane and Peter Schmeichel and Mark Hughes. So, these different layers of you know, monstrous mentalities of people who are just massive leaders. We've been exposed to them. I was exposed to them. And that's why I always say that resilience and robustness and hard work can be taught and learned. I don't think it's something you're born with. And I think when you say like how did we achieve that, I just think we're very fortunate with our parents and the exposure that we had to brilliant leaders throughout our career and examples and the standard bearers that were next to us. Learning through words, those words that your dad would say to you about getting up and getting out of it every morning is a great way to learn, but actions, I think in my hindsight, seem to be the best way to to really learn those lessons vicariously from observing our parents and how they're behaving in their lives. I I know I'll never forget the day that I saw my mom my mom stopped coming home, and then I asked my dad where she was, and she said, "Oh, she sleeps in the back of the shop now." This corner shop she was running. And then going there and seeing this bag of rice that she was sleeping on that had all these rat holes in it from where the mice and rats had been eating it. That visual of that she was working that hard, even though she didn't have to, to support our family, that she was sleeping in the back room every night and not coming home was was a lesson that I learned without her saying a word. Yeah. What are the lessons that you learned from your cuz you cited your dad there as being pretty in in um a pretty go-get-'em person. How was he functioning in professionally that taught you these lessons? He was a lorry driver, and he basically worked for Constellation Luggage, which was just luggage, you know, suitcases. And he had to do three drops a week at Daventry, which is south of Birmingham. And he actually had to get them there basically by the end of Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. But we had a We lived in a two up, two down terraced house. And every time my dad got up, you can hear your dad get up when you're young, you just you just hear it because it's obviously that you know, the lights come on and you hear the sort of noise, the floorboards are creaking. And we always get up early as a family anyway, but 4:00 5:00, you'd hear my dad. We lived in the back We were in the back bedroom, and his his lorry his wagon was parked at the back when he was doing to do a drop the next day. And he'd leave at 4:00 5:00 in the morning on the Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. He'd take the suitcases, he'd wait for the depot to open at sort of 7:00 8:00, drop them off, and he'd be back and have his job done by 11:00. And then he'd start to go and do his what would be his commercial work, the fundraising for testimonials, the thing that he loved for say for instance Lancashire Cricket Club. That was his passion. That's how he got into Bury Football Club as a commercial director. And into foot foot cuz he But he had he had a sales mentality, my dad. But he he'd get his his main job done by 11:00 every single morning. He'd be Daventry and back in a lorry. And then after school, he'd take us to football, and he'd take us to cricket. So, the amount he fit into a day was unbelievable. You know, he'd almost do two jobs. He'd do his job which was his main job, which was earning him his money, which was a lorry driver. He'd then come and do the job, which would be potentially could he do some sort of like side job selling for like Lancashire Cricket Club or Greenmount Cricket Club. He did He organized dinners and events and things like that. And then his family would come after school where he'd he'd put them into sport. We'd go to United in the evening, or we'd go We were at United from 11:00 11:00 Monday and Thursday night. So, this constant drive of trying to fit as much as you possibly can in the day. And that's where I sort of the attack the day was from my dad. Get up, get there early. Let's make sure we're there. Even at United, we'd get there early on Saturday. There was never any risk with the time of being late. I feel sometimes that that is a good thing. It's It's put that into us. But sometimes to live by that now, particularly with the It's hard to keep Yeah, it's hard to keep on doing it. had heart problems at a very early age of the age of 42. You know, he's a lorry driver. You know, he liked to go for a beer. He liked a night out. He did too much. He got stressed. All the things that I think [laughter] So, you think there's a lot I can see in my dad of me. Um but I don't think I can change it, really. [clears throat] What is the cost? Because for everyone's I sat here with Tim Grover, who actually coaches a lot of the young United players now. Yeah. Coached Michael Jordan and um Kobe Bryant for a span of 15 odd years. He was their their sole coach. And he said for all everyone's greatness, the thing that causes their greatness, in your case, you know, that drive and that ruthlessness and that dedication caused you to become a Man United legend and all these other things. But what is the cost on the other side that people don't don't see? From He He referred to it as we have our light side and we have our dark side. The dark side is a consequence and a unavoidable consequence of the light side. Yeah. What was that dark side for you and your dad? Um health, I think. And I've seen that in the last couple of years with myself. I think Physical health? No. I've had I've said this, to be fair, on something that I've done myself in the last week on The Overlap. Um I actually, to be fair, um Raheem Sterling scored the goal in the uh European Championships against Germany a year and a half ago. And I basically collapsed to the floor and had a fit. And after that, I went to hospital, had checks, and then found that, you know, I need to slow down a little bit, basically. And it's It's similar things to what my dad was told in his forties that you know ultimately I do too much I think too much I need to relax more you know to be fair my wife says it quite often you hear but you're not present [laughter] so and Justin was in doing interview the other day and it was with Jeff Shreeve Jeff Jeff known me 15-20 years he said the problem is when I'm asking you a question you've got my question inside the first two seconds let's say it's a 10 second question you've got my question inside the first two seconds the next eight seconds you're thinking about what you're doing after I can see it in your eyes already and he's right so even during this interview I'm speaking and sometimes I lose my way in an interview and I have to forget what the question was and quite often I'll say what was the question you know if I'm on a stage doing like a Q&A what did you actually ask me cuz I've actually drifted off whilst I'm answering the question to something that I need to do later and it's I'm never present so the the consequence is that maybe I remember Sir Alex saying to me he missed his children growing up I am missing my children growing up that's a consequence of my life I've been in London for four days you know but what can I do I've got I come down to Brentford Manchester United I then stay down Sunday because I don't I can't get a train back the trains there's a train strike and then I'm down doing Monday night football and I'll go back today last week I was down for another four days but it's what I do I I love what I do I wouldn't change it but this afternoon I'll get back to Manchester I've got meetings till 6:00 and then tomorrow it's I'm full all day Thursday I'm in Glasgow doing a a dinner with Sir Alex Ferguson so it is a constant sort of every single day that I feel like I'm filling days with things that I love and want to do but then you say to yourself you do have those odd moments more now why am I doing all this why you doing this now you love doing it maybe you know it's what you enjoy but you sometimes have those moments don't you I have more of those moments I think why am I doing this why have I got two hotels why have I got a football club why have I got a university why have I built an overlap channel I'm on young sky why am I doing these things but it's it's that idea of I suppose cramming as much into your life as possible thinking you've just only got this sort of short period of time and Brian Kidd used to say to us get your pace early you can't make it up at the end and we used to sprint and sprint in our runs and sprint and that means if you collapsed at the end and you didn't quite finish it or whatever it's better than managing yourself and thinking I'll save a little bit we I have to say the players that I played with at Manchester United we never saved anything it was all left out there on the pitch and I I think that's how our our lives are since as well we just leave everything out there on the pitch there's nothing saved so we just end up I suppose saturating every single second of every single day I used to think that I was driven I used to think that you know and that sounds like a very good framing I'm driven I'm motivated I thought that's what was cuz you said right why am I doing this after I do this podcast there's maybe you know 10 of the companies that I'm running I have zero time in the day and then I try and cram in my girlfriend and my family and do a very bad job of that I used to think it's because I'm driven and I'm just whatever and then I asked myself a question which I when I met Eddie Hearn I I saw the same thing I mean his book is called relentless are we really driven or are we being voluntarily driven as in we're making the choice to drive towards something or are we being involuntarily dragged by some kind of insecurity or some kind of discomfort with the prospect of not being busy cuz for me I'm convinced these days that I'm probably being dragged by an insecurity maybe but I developed it from a young age yeah maybe I'm not sure I don't I don't know I don't cuz could you stop I don't feel not sure cuz this idea that you know if you stop it'll kill you and all that sort of stuff slow down I do feel like I need to slow down I read a book I think I can't remember what it was a few a couple of years ago where it talked about you can never really retire if you love work and you are relentless but what you can have is mini retirements during the year and that's what I've tried to do I don't do it very well so for instance this weekend I'm going to Spain Friday till Monday morning I call that's a mini retirement so that's a weekend it's a weekend it's a mini retirement it's where I basically can say for three days I'm there and I'm basically taking I don't think about work now I will but and sometimes some of my best my best ideas come when I'm on these types of trips but then in six weeks I'll have another mini retirement for five days or four days rather than thinking you're going to stop for six months and sort of have a sabbatical that's not probably going to happen with people like you or I because we just basically don't work that way so to have lots of mini retirements during the year is what I've tried to do in the last few years I'm not sure I'm doing it very successfully I'm not sure what's wrong with us if that's what you're asking is there something wrong with us I don't feel insecure or vulnerable I don't feel insecure or vulnerable at all I feel I feel I feel so confident and I feel not confident I feel like I've got coping mechanisms built to deal with things so I there isn't any criticism there's very very little criticism that I receive now that even touches the sides of me and I get criticized heavily on social media through my football punditry my opinions whatever it may be because of what I went through at United losing that confidence at the age of 24 post treble going through that difficult patch where I didn't want the ball seeing the psychiatrist on my own only doctor knew not talking about it till I was 35 but what that psychiatrist gave me was coping mechanisms and perspective I just ask you know if I go through a difficult moment now I ask myself the question will I come out of it at the side did I expect every day to be a good day no I don't expect every day to be a good day so when the bad day comes and it's a really bad experience or you have a make a bad business decision did you think you would make every decision would be a good decision in business no it wouldn't be a good you're not going to make the right decision every single day you're going to have bad decisions bad choices bad days so when they come now I can put them into perspective and move on really comfortably so I feel like I'm I don't feel vulnerable or insecure I'm not quite sure sometimes you know people say I've got a strategy I've got a plan not quite sure any of us have really because the reality of it is we don't know what door is going to open next you don't know six years ago five years ago that Dragons' Den is going to come and knock on your door you don't know that you haven't got a clue or 10 years ago certainly you don't know that's going to happen in your life but when the knock on the door comes you think I fancy walking through that door and probably the same with me when things have happened in my life where I thought I didn't expect that to come yeah I'll I'll take that so we are probably being dragged it's a little bit like jumping off you go skiing you're off the sort of go off the sort of black slope you there's no way out of it you're going down and you can't stop and it's a little bit like you know I feel like to be fair my life's a little bit like a black slope a black slope in skiing you you I've gone over the edge I've started what can I do now slow down say to my businesses say to the teams that I work with sorry I don't fancy this anymore well thanks for that but you we're here still what what's I've got no choice I've got no choice you've got no choice [laughter] we're in I read this book called The Body Holds The Score and I was actually speaking to one of my best friends yesterday who was an extreme workaholic and then he started having panic attacks he ends up in hospital and he said to me he said I felt fine but the body goes gives out first the body will you know when the mind is telling you no you can cope with this you're doing fine the body will show you in a pretty drastic fashion that you're not okay and that you need to listen to to yourself ever since you you collapsed on that day have you made [clears throat] changes honestly cuz I'm going to ask I'm going to ask you I'm going to ask Emma [laughter] I did I did I I have I think but then it's the actual sustain it's sustaining the changes and not dipping back into your old habits that's the problem that's to what do I do I train four five times a week I wasn't always training pre that I try I've got a sleep ring and it focuses me more on the time I need to sleep at night and but then I don't always wear it now you know it's a couple years later it's in my bag it's here I didn't wear it last night and I'm annoyed with myself cuz I didn't wear it last night cuz I forgot to put it on when I got back so habits really that sort of do you drift back into your old habits I try not to pick my phone up when I first wake up but I feel I'm failing miserably at that I'm failing miserably but I have to take an email off my phone I've taken WhatsApp off my phone because they're things that I think were emails if I think if you wake up to an email at 4:00 in the morning that's an email that's not a great email let's say it's something that you think I've got to deal with that you aren't getting back to sleep so I've taken email off my phone it's only on my iPad it helps WhatsApp I mean WhatsApp announced last week that they were going to sort of this idea that you you couldn't you couldn't be joined in groups and people didn't know when you were online I just felt like it was an intrusion WhatsApp I felt like people were attacking me a constant attack of added to groups and they see that I'm online and things like that and I oh no get off get away from me so I just do iMessage now and I say to people ring me so there have been changes that I've made that are helpful because I do feel email is [sighs] I love speaking to people so I lived in a dressing room where the camaraderie we didn't email each other at Manchester United Sir Alex Ferguson didn't email me we had a brilliant team spirit in the club we were there every single day we spoke to each other we socialized with each other we'd help each other we knew each other and that's how you build a team spirit and I felt that sometimes email can be I know it needs to happen in businesses I know that you need to see attachments I know you need to communicate with each other I do believe that they can be quite damaging to culture sometimes, particularly if the wrong tone is on the email. I think you can be mis- misunderstood on email. I think it can come across harsh. I think they can put pressure on people. And I realized that the first 5 years out of football, I was emailing people 5:00 6:00 in the morning. But you imagine, you know, you emailing people at 5:00 6:00 in the morning, the impact that's going to have on them when they wake up. I've got to deal with that. I've got to email them back. It's like, that's not fair. It's not right. So I have made quite a few changes, but probably not enough. Yeah, I I completely agree. I don't I'll be on the people this will surprise people. I look at my emails once a week. Oh, wow. So my my assistant looks at my inbox and then if there's she puts them on my list and then I go to my list when I'm ready. And also with all my WhatsApps and all that stuff, all notifications off. And it's just for me trying to take back control of my time. So I choose when I go to it. It doesn't notify me that that it needs me now. And I used to have email dread. Yeah. You know, early mornings, especially when you're running a big company, you've got what, 600 employees or more? Yeah. There's always going to be something wrong. There is. Yeah. doesn't care what time or occasion, it's going to interrupt you. There's always going to be and I don't want that anxiety in my life. Also, if there is a problem and something's gone wrong, then just ring. They can call you. Yeah, ring me. Just ring me. Anyone can ring me and just say like I've got a problem and then we we drop everything, don't we? I always feel like it's the biggest responsibility I have is to the people that I work with. And if they ring me and they're they're in trouble, they've got a problem, we have to deal with that. That's an absolute immediate. You always going back to your early years in football and as you came through the ranks, you you always and I've seen this in multiple interviews, kind of a little bit self-disparaging about your own abilities. you. [laughter] I just played with brilliant players, didn't I? I mean, if you think about it, just go through the players who I played with. Jaap Stam, you know, Denis Irwin, Peter Schmeichel, Roy Keane, to to David Beckham, Cristiano Ronaldo, Dwight Yorke, Eric Cantona. Every single one of them had more talent and ability than I did. You know, they just they just did. It was just obvious around me. When I got to United, the juice about insecurity, the only time that I ever felt insecure was when I got to United at I got to United at 11. And I joined at 11 and there was a center of excellence group and then we got retained every single year. But at 14 is where it gets really serious and they start deciding the the school boys and the outer town lads come in. So all of a sudden, you were exposed to them, to Beckham, to Scholes joined at 14, all these brilliant players. And you think, how am I going to survive here? I could just I'm aware. I know my own abilities. Um and I had to I had to just do things differently. I was a midfield player, then I was a center back, then ended up at right back. You know, there is an element of truth in what Carragher said. No one wants to grow up to be a Gary Neville, meaning no one wants to grow up to be a full back. Everyone when they're a kid scores goals or sets up goals and then you find out that you're not good enough to do that and you get pushed back the team. That's what happened with me. I was one position away. That was the last my last hope, right back. You know what I mean? If I was out of the team if I couldn't play right [laughter] back, I'd I'd gone from center midfield as 11 year old at United, then center back from 14 to 18 and then told I wouldn't I wasn't good enough by my reserve team coach to be a center back at United cuz Steve Bruce and Gary Pallister were there. And then I go to to right back. So you are aware that you're being pushed out of your positions by better players and that that's your only route to success is hard work and playing at right back and trying to adapt to that. And then it was good enough for me in the end, but you know, it's it's not disparaging. I I I knew the game. I I could organize. I knew the game well. I read the game well. And um on the pitch, I would never ever I would never give in. So the around me, this idea of being able to organize the team, I could see the game in front of me. So I had an impact I believe I had an impact on the other players that I played with beyond my talent through my understanding of the game and making sure that I never stopped going and we never stopped going. We keep going. We just keep pushing forward. So if we're fighting for a goal, you know, I always think what's the I never go into this like level of grandiosity. I probably never said this before. When people say to me what's the greatest moment in my life, I say it's the final in '99 in New Camp when we won the treble. But that I I made a run from right back. I got the corner for the first goal. Cuz I went all I I ran sprinted over to the left wing and took the long throw to put it into the box. It came back out to me and we got the corner. It's not an assist by any stretch of the imagination. It typifies my career of seven goals and very few assists. I'm no Trent Alexander-Arnold or nor even a Denis Irwin. But that I that that that you have to find a way to win. You have to just do everything you possibly can. You cannot leave anything on the pitch. You just sprint everywhere. You just do everything. And that to me typified what probably I was, that I could see something in that, you know, in terms of how to impact a game, whether it be through impacting someone else by getting them going and giving them the ball and get and keeping them at it. Um and that's why I think he kept me there till I was 36 cuz it wasn't through ability at the end. He kept me there till I was 36 just through my influence and my impact I had in the dressing room. I'm I'm pretty certain of that because it wasn't through anything I was doing on the pitch. So I'm always humble around my own ability because of the talent I had around me. And that's why I get caught on Twitter quite often people will say to me if it hadn't have been if you hadn't have been at Man United, you'd been a jobbing right back somewhere at Fulham or Bournemouth or Maybe I would I've never heard anyone in a higher managerial position disagree with the phrase that hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. Yeah, I mean, that's one thing I could never ever I could never ever be accused of anything other than from the minute I joined at 11 to the minute I left at 36, Man United got everything out of me, everything. And to be fair, the club gave me everything. So we we didn't owe each other anything. Um and that's something I'm proud of. Longevity is actually probably one of the one of the things that consistency and longevity, being able to consistently work hard every single day at a good level of performance and turn up every single day and be there is underrated actually. And that's the thing that to me for surviving at 25 years under Sir Alex Ferguson in that environment of excellence and demands that he placed on people was, you know, it was a great achievement, but I did that with a lot less talent than the other players in the club. When was the first time you realized that Sir Alex Ferguson was you you felt his influence. You felt his mindset. You know what something in the early days, it was the old school like head teacher. No, he's not a head teacher by any stretch of the imagination, but you got a little bit of fear that you maybe have of your father as well. If your father sort of gets a bit angry with you, you know, that little bit of that dominating male of the '70s, '80s, '90s, probably going back beyond that, was was apparent in Sir Alex Ferguson that, you know, you knew when he walked into the room, the room went quiet. There was that presence, that aura. The boss is here. And so you felt it straight away. When people say to me sort of, how did you keep coming back every single year and continue to keep winning? What was the secret of that? It was by his actions and what what he did. I always remember when I was 30 When did we lose the Champions League final? 2009, so I'd have been 34, right near the end of my career. Uh I was doing my um We played the Champions League final on a Wednesday, we lost. We got back on the Friday from Rome or Thursday or Friday. On the Saturday, I had to go and pick up my boots at Carrington, the training ground. So it was a Sunday morning. I had to go and pick up my boots at Carrington, the training ground to go to St. George's Park cuz I was doing my A license coaching badge. And it was my final assessment. And I went in at 7:00 in the morning. I'd organized to meet with the caretaker who was basically there on site all the time to let me in. And I parked on the back and they his office lights on and he's there in his chair. I thought, oh no, I don't want to see him. We'd just lost the European Cup final four four days ago. So I drove around the front and went and got my boots and moved out. But he was there Sunday morning, 6:30 7:00, the only person in the building with his light on four days after we'd won the European Cup final. And he'd been in his mid-60s. And I thought, no one can live with that. The That That's the reason he's winning. That's the reason he's winning cuz no other manager, no other leader that I know, four days after that defeat in his off time in the summer is in his office on a Sunday morning at 6:30. And he didn't know he didn't know I was coming in obviously and he didn't see me either. I just saw you could just see him in the distance. It was I couldn't believe it. And it just all those sort of examples of that work ethic they hit you every single day. And he knew how to tap into here. He knew how to get you. No matter who you were in the dressing room. He always used to get me. I always say this by mentioning my He used to used to used to mention my grandparents. What about your grandparents? Getting up every single day, putting their tie on, the work that they put in, how they never complained about anything, you know, what they must have lived through obviously in the Second World War. And he would say things like that in his team talks and it would always tap into me cuz I used to sit with my mum's dad and look at his medals that he'd had he got during the Second World War. He'd had three or four wounds. He had shrapnel wounds in his shoulders that he could still show me and bits and bits of metal still in his body. And he would talk to me about the medals and where he got them from and how he'd been in Holland and how he'd sort of had to come back and then he went back over, how he married my nan on one of his returns back. So that used to get me every single time. So when I used to play for United, when you think about what motivates you, what gets you going, and he used to mention say for instance grandparents. And there's that difficult moment on a pitch where you think, we're struggling here a little bit. And now I think of my youngest daughter when I'm training. What keeps me going to the end of that training session? I think of silly things. If I don't keep going here, someone's going to get my youngest daughter and I'll there's nothing going to get her, so I've got to keep going. And there is my is was is was grandad, my mum's dad. And I used to think he wouldn't he wouldn't stop going. He came back having been wounded twice and trapped in the wounds twice and went back out to fight again. And he had those medals and he would speak to me about it. And I used to think how can I stop? But he would tap He would find that in me. Sir Alex would push He would push those buttons and press those buttons. For someone else, it would become something completely different, I'm sure. It might be talking about the father. It might be talking about him going on strike in the government shipyards. It might be talking about another experience that he's had, but he would tap into everybody in the dressing room in some way that would mean they'd find something to mean they would never give in. And that's what he You know, his film's called Never Give In. He never gave in. But also the influence he had on others never to give in through finding something in them was was incredible. Rio talked to me a lot about culture and the culture that Sir Alex Ferguson said everyone said the same thing. Having left football now and working in the world of business, you might must be looking back on the culture he created. Yeah. And in some ways drawing a lot from that in your own businesses, right? What What have you learned about the importance of culture? Because There was this comment Rio made to me on the podcast that I've never forgotten, which is about Sir Alex Ferguson's like lack of presence at the training ground. Rio said he only came into the training ground training room dressing ground a couple of times because he didn't need to. The culture was in there. Yeah. And then Rio talked about how then when Rio went and moved on to another club, in that same dressing room players are talking about how much money they're making and then all of these other things which would never have happened at United. No. How How does How does one create that culture? I suppose being grounded. He was grounded and he believed in the sort of the work Work ethic was everything to him. Being proud Being proud to work hard. Being proud of the people around you work hard. Uh being proud of your teammates. He used to say, "Look around the changing room. Look around. I'm proud of every single one of you, but look at each other. Look at what you each do for each other on the pitch and how you can't achieve what you're going to achieve without each other." So he made us respect each other. Not everybody got on in our changing room, but most of us did. Um but he tapped into those things all the time. It It It was It was It was non-stop and being grounded um looking after people. Little things like when Wendy used to get the charity balls signed. Um and Roy Keane was like this as well. So Wendy every Thursday would have 30 to 40 charity balls that we would sign and then they would go to the children's charities or the different charities in Greater Manchester or in the country. And sometimes you're in a rush, aren't you? You're a football player. You're young. Ah, Wendy, I'll sign them after. I'm just I'm going to have a massage. I've got to go and do my stretching. I've got to have a massage. I've got to go and have treatment. Whatever it might be that you say on the way in to poor excuse that you'd give. Or maybe you just generally did. And there was one day where he basically, I think Roy had walked past Wendy. She was a little bit upset and only five players out of the 23 in the squad had signed the balls. And Roy went upstairs and said to Sir Alex, "It's an absolute disgrace. This has happened a couple of weeks now." He killed us. He absolutely killed us. The lack of respect to to walk past Wendy, who was there to get the charity balls signed and not sign them for her, for him was a a dereliction of duty. It was a lack of respect. It's not what you do. We're equal in this football club. We treat each other equally. We look after one another. We make sure that we're sort of compassionate. And the idea of not doing things like that, little things like that um I think just little things like that stand out in my mind. So now sometimes I walk into the businesses and you know what we're like. We sometimes walk in on our phone and we don't say hello to people because we're that immersed in our own blinkered sort of space. But then I'll walk past sometimes and I'll realize I've not said hello to someone. I'll go back and say, "I'm really sorry." And I'll I'll you know, I'll say, "How are you okay?" And I do feel like even when in the office there is no I sit next to people in the office. I don't sort of have my own glass tower. Yeah, I don't I don't I I make sure I go and sit in Cafe Football in the hotel or I go and sit in the main restaurant at Stocks or at Salford. I'll just go and sit in the main office because the idea that basically we don't He was He did have his own office and he did have his own space. And he did, to be fair, delegate and he would keep his But I So I don't think I'm I'm like Sir Alex in the way in which I now look at my business because I do believe it's very different now. Um but he was very The staff loved him. Everybody loved him at the club because he protected them. He knew everybody's name. He asked about the families. He knew the families' names. He He was really, really attentive. He's He was far better than I am. Far better than that than that than I am. But I probably, to be fair, mix with my teams more than he maybe would. So but the work ethic is the thing. Honestly the only thing you can ever do in life is work as hard as you possibly can and never give in. And he said, "You've got that choice every single day." Really simple. That's it. The talent you've got you just work as hard as you can every single day and never give in and then you come back the day after and do it again. And that's it. That's the secret to what he believed cuz he said the talent is his problem. Forget talent. I've chosen you to be here, so I'm telling you you've got the talent. Don't you worry about that bit. What I need back in return is that other bit, which is the the focus, the commitment, the dedication to make sure every single day you get up and you're here and you give your all and you don't give in. And that's why I think I stayed where I was because I believed in him. I trusted in him. And now it's the same. If someone comes into our business and they've been selected to come in, that's because I believe they've got the talent or someone in our senior management team believe they've got the talent. All they have to do in return now is go for it and give their all and be enthusiastic and not give in and then come back the day after and do it again. And I I keep it try and keep it as simple as that. I know there's a lot more to it than that, but it is it was that simple for us. I know that then there's the tactics, then there's the decision-making. Then there's the the sort of conscience, all the things that go with it, but that was the sort of heart, I think, of every all the messaging that we got from him. They almost seem like old-fashioned values. What you're saying. It It almost sounds, and I'm going to be honest, it almost sounds like what the modern-day professional culture might consider to be a little bit toxic. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. This this drive for hard work, but I have to say I've never sat here with anybody that's reached the peak of their powers in their career that hasn't said the same. But now, if I'm in my businesses so I don't things like I I don't have I'd never work the first week in January. I think it's the most depressing week of the year. After Christmas you've had a high and then you go back. It's dark. It's miserable that first week. So I always take it off, but I always give the rest of our team in the office that I work in off as well. So I don't make people do what I'm not going to do. I'm going away I think in 3 weeks for 5 days and I said to everybody in the office, "Don't worry about the fact you've got 28 days in your contract. Those 5 days you're off. Have the last 5 days off of the summer, then we'll go for it to Christmas." Also people have flexible working. They can come in Monday. They don't have to come in Tuesday. They can come in Wednesday. I trust them to do what they want. So there is an element of yeah, I want hard I do expect hard work, but I also want people to have a brilliant time and share in the success that we have, but also make sure that if I'm off I would expect that they have those times off as well. I wouldn't expect them to come in. Uh I don't I hate the idea of a of a work package. Just got like you've got 25 days holiday. You have to book it in. I hate that. I hate the idea of restriction. I hate it. I feel like it's bullying. You must sit there in the office. I hate it. It's not right. It is not right. Don't tell people where to sit, how to work. You know, obviously there is a direction and there is a leadership that's needed, but I just feel it's really not acceptable. But you know, this this was pre-COVID. Mhm. Our office is like, to be fair, this this this room that we're in here now. Mhm. So someone could be sat there. Someone could be sat there. Someone could be sat on the floor over there with a with you know, on a laptop. That's how it should be in an office. It should always be like that, I think. I don't think it needed I don't think it ever I don't think you needed COVID to make modern business act properly with the teams that they work with. So I I do feel it's very different than how we were at United, which is old-fashioned value. There's still some old-fashioned values. You have to work hard. You have to get the job done. We know that. But why do you have to say that to people? I think people know they have to work hard and get the job done. So why do you have to say that to them? You're looking to tap into them, make something unique in your business that makes them want to stay, really. That's what you saw. You make You want to make it enjoyable. Mhm. And that [clears throat] can still be enjoyable through hard work. I think I think it's quite enjoyable working in our Yeah. [laughter] I don't know what everyone else thinks. No, well, I know people that work for you, obviously, cuz you know, we've got a got a got a colleague that used to work for me that works for you now and they're all very, very complimentary. So that's supported [laughter] by that's supported by the evidence that I have. Um but you're right. I I've always found that the contradiction there is trust. You're saying to your team members to trust you, but you're not trusting them. And trust I feel like has to go both ways. And so And there's And the other what what ends up happening when you have those, in my experience, those very rigid rules, is you'll get compliance, but you won't get like motivation. And as you've described it, you want people to be internally driven, not compliant because of punishment. Yeah. And that gets the best out of people, right? It's interesting because um Valencia taught me a lot, but around that time I was with England coaching with Roy Hodgson. Um and I'd lived at United where we were We were fined. You know, Nunez got sent off last night for headbutting Anderson. That's two weeks' wages at Manchester United. I got fined two weeks' wages regularly, four, five times. It happens football. It's wouldn't happen in a normal workplace, but we know Sir Alex Ferguson's rules. If you violent conduct or chatting back to a referee you get fined. It's fact. He You accept it. People think Sir Alex Ferguson was like get after the referees, but if we actually got booked for having a go at a referee, we would get fined. So, very much quite a rigid thing. And then Roy Hodgson said something to me when I was with England. I I and I felt those all standards were slipping a little bit one time. I can't remember exactly what it was about. And I said, "We need some rules." Cuz I had a we'd had a code of conduct at United. I was the players' rep. I knew what the the sort of standards were. And he said to me, "We don't set rules." He said, "Be very careful with rules." Uh he said, "Because it's always the people that you don't want to break them that break them." I thought, "That's quite clever, that." And ever since, there are no rules. There are no rules in our business in terms of you must behave, you must do this, you must wear that, you must you know, I don't expect formality in in dress. I don't I expect people to be comfortable. So, I don't say, "You should wear this or you should be here at that time or we should we've got to do that." In any part of my business, I don't create rules anymore. Because once you create rules, for start, it's rigid. I don't believe it's right. And the rules are there that they're unwritten actually. The rules of sort of working hard and turning up and doing your job. All the things that that they're the rules are there just they just don't have to be written down. Um and you know, he said, "What happens if your star player walks in that's breaking cuz you know, you know, the ones that you know, we were talking about that were setting the low standards." He said, "What happens if one of the star player walks in and we need to work with the players to make sure that they understand what we expect of them and the standards. We don't need to set rules because if you set rules and consequence and punishment, then it'll be the one that you don't want to break them and then you're in a big you know, you're in big trouble. So, it was it was a good lesson for me. And in football, it's very much a different place than a normal workplace anyway. It doesn't live by HR rules, a football dressing room. It doesn't. It doesn't you know, players are still getting fined. Players still get told where to be, when to turn up, what to wear. We like it as well. I still like it now actually. I I like it to be told what to do. I actually like it at Sky when people say to me, "Gary, we're doing this." You know, I like being told what to I respond to it really well cuz I've had it to be fair but I've been instructed from Eric Harrison, Nobby Stiles, Brian Kidd, Sir Alex Ferguson. I've been instructed. I lived through the '70s and '80s. You could not live through the '70s and '80s as a child, early '90s, without being instructed cuz that was the form of leadership. So, we still respond to it a little bit in our own lives, but then when I think about my children, I don't instruct them. I like independent thinking. I like them. So, when people talk about social media or when people talk about, you know, I I was sat with someone yesterday who said, "I'm I'm fearing my my children going on social media." I I I always say to them, "Your children should get good at social media really quickly because they have to. They have to. They have to be good at it." So, my children are 13 years of age now. They're both they're all obsessed with social media, with the apps. They're on it all the time. And you know, sometimes we'll say, you know, "That's enough tonight." And you know, let's come off it, but I want them to get good at it. I want them to use it and find out what information they can trust and what they can't trust. I use Twitter now all the time for my well, one to have a debate. good at it, to be fair. But also to actually my news my major source of news is Twitter. It's my major source of news in my life. It's really helpful. I don't think as a sports journalist, broadcaster, I could live without Twitter. It's really important to me. So, when people say at Twitter is a cesspit, get off it, there are elements of it that are, but that's that's a really important thing for me in my life. Because I find all the sort of articles, all the sort of opinions, you know, all the breaking news is there. How can I live without that? It's what I rely upon to be able to do my job. So, when I come off the pitch last Saturday Sunday doing Manchester United so doing West Ham Man City and I see Manchester United have bid for Arnautovic, I used to have to wait till the morning after for the newspaper 15 years ago. Our children aren't like that anymore. They want things instantly. They see things quickly. And they don't like to be instructed. We have to collaborate with them. Mhm. There's an inevitability you're completely right to social media and the internet and digital that will actually I believe as well will serve as a disadvantage to them if they if they don't keep up because you can't think of a profession these days that doesn't involve social media or the internet. So, you're you're you know, in in an effort to try and protect children sometimes, we actually cause them a pretty substantial career disadvantage. It should be taught at schools. It should be it on the curriculum. Social media, how to use it, when to what to use it for, how to get good at it. The dangers. The dangers of it. It should be something that's taught It's got to be more useful to them than some of the subjects that they're currently being taught in 2022. Yeah. You you know when you and this is I mean this is not a nice topic to talk about cuz we're both Manchester United fans. But through all you've been through in the era you grew up in and all of those famous influences you had that instilled those values in you, um and even the early initiations you had in that dressing room from the senior players and you know, I I read about all of that stuff as well. When you look at what's going on at the club today, even though you're not you're not in the dressing room, you must have a pretty pretty strong hypothesis as to why Manchester United in 2022 are failing based on what you experienced. Yeah, I think it lack it comes down to a lack of leadership and direction from the top and vision and um a deterioration of the sort of beliefs over a long period of time. I said last night actually that um a school that's underperforming over a long period of time and getting poor results gets put in special measures by Ofsted and by government. And they're not blaming the kids. It means that the governors, it means that the sort of the head teachers, the people at the top of the organization at the school have not basically set the standards for those children and they've let the school basically rot and the results become poor. I think that's what's happened at United. It was a high-performing school. The head teacher has left. The board of the governors left, David Gill. And what's happened since is that they've been replaced with people who haven't got it. And poor standards have just meant that ultimately over a period of time there's become an embedded rot. And that's what's happened. And also that the kids, the players look now like they haven't got a clue anymore and they're getting poor results. I don't believe all those Manchester United players that are on that pitch are poor players. When they came to the club, some of those players, I was really excited by their arrivals. And I've seen players that weren't as good as them go to other clubs and excel. So, the environment, the culture, the yeah, the enthusiasm that you need to go into work every single day, I don't believe has been created by the hierarchy at the club. And then there's been a sort of a a lack of investment into the facilities, into the stadium, into the training ground. So, now Tottenham, Liverpool Liverpool now Liverpool for buyers to laugh when he used to go to Anfield when I used to compare it to Old Trafford. I used to they can never catch up. They're too far behind. They're just building that second stand now behind that left-hand goal where the away fans sit. We saw it last night towering up. The main stand now is towering up and it holds I don't know how many it holds 20,000. Anfield will be a more modern ground than Manchester United and Old Trafford in 12 months. That is unforgivable. From to to think where not only have they overtaken us on the pitch, but actually they've overtaken us off the pitch. Manchester City are light years ahead on and off the pitch. Tottenham have invested 1.3 billion in stadium. Have you Have you been to a Tottenham stadium? Oh, yeah. It's out of this world. It's a it's a One of the best in the world. museum. It's the best in the world. I I can't believe what I'm walking through when I see it. And yet if you go to their training ground, which I've been to, it's an amazing brilliant facility that is far better than Carrington where we moved to in 2001. [snorts] We moved to to Carrington so in 2000 we moved to Carrington. We left The Cliff training ground in Salford. So, 22 years we've had a bit of investment, but in 20 years Manchester United have not invested in the stadium. They've not invested in the training ground that much. And then they've lost the two main people and before you know it, you've got a club that's really struggling. And I've said that in the last couple of years, the only thing that I really do think can change it now is the is is the ownership. And I say that on here more calmly than I say on Sky Sports, but it's it's not an emotive subject anymore. It's a very serious issue. There is an embedded rot at the club. You know that they're walking past Wendy's balls now, don't you? Do you know what I mean? No. Is in like signing Wendy's balls. Yeah, sorry. It's solidified for me Yeah. caring about values in every single touch point. Even the small stuff. Yeah. And so I I was thinking then I I can almost imagine now those small expressions of our values as you said they come from the top down are probably now being messed. And it's funny cuz as fans we look at the thing we go, "Oh, he's not running fast enough." Or we'll blame this player or Fred or this player whatever. But when you've when you've worked for me when I've worked in an organization, I realized that the values, the culture, everything starts from the top. And if you bring in great And as we've seen at Manchester United, you can bring in the best stars into a bad culture, they'll become bad performers. And um I always I always said in a business context as well, if the culture is strong enough, new people become the culture. If the culture is weak, the culture becomes the new people. It's why I was kept at the age of 33 to 36 in the dressing you were a disciple of the culture. Because because Rafael da Silva from Brazil comes in, I'm the right back that's the senior right back. And who does he look to? He looks to me. He looks to Paul Scholes. He looks to Rio Ferdinand. And he sees people that are at the very top of the game. They're experienced. They're end of their careers. That's why I looked at Steve Bruce and Bryan Robson and Eric Cantona. I had nowhere to go as a young player. I knew I had to do what they had to do else cuz they were all doing it every single day and they'd been doing it for 15 years. I do feel sorry for the current players and that won't go down well with a lot of Man United fans cuz a lot of Man United fans will say they're overpaid and they're chancing it and bluffing it. They're not. They're not. I know some of those lads, they're good lads. If they were sat here now with me and you, you'd be thinking there's an element of vulnerability there. There is a lack of confidence. They're crying out for help. I wish they had Sir Alex. I wish they had Roy Keane in the changing room with Nemanja Vidić and Rio Ferdinand at center back and Peter Schmeichel in goal. Because if they did, they would grow, they would thrive, they would but deliver. If the Man United team today was David de Gea in goal, Patrice Evra at left back, Harry Maguire at center back with Varane. It was me at right back. In midfield, there was Roy Keane and Michael Carrick. On the left was Marcus Rashford, on the right was Jadon Sancho. Up front was Martial with Rooney or Hughes. Those same five or six players that we're currently saying can not are not not not good enough to play for Man United, they would be outstanding if Sir Alex Ferguson was the manager, if the culture was still there. It's I don't honestly I I that might be I don't even know what I've just said to be fair. I've not said it before. You know what I'm trying to say. It's just surround yourself by those people who've got those standards, who've got that experience, who can cradle you through the difficult moments like we were when we young players, when we won when people said we won the league with kids, we didn't. We wouldn't have won the league without the experienced players in that dressing room around us and the guidance of Sir Alex Ferguson. They've not got that guidance off the pitch and they've not got that guidance and comfort on the pitch. I used to walk out in the tunnel with Peter Schmeichel in front of me, Roy Keane in front of him. Behind me obviously David Beckham always went behind me but Denis Irwin in front of me. I felt safe. I was 21, 22, 23 years of age. I felt safe. I felt comfortable cuz I knew I was being looked after by experienced people. I knew that I was wasn't alone. These players go out onto the pitch now, they feel alone. They don't feel like they've got anybody. That's where I am a little bit critical of Cristiano. You're the man. You're the star. You're the You're the best player in the world. Come on. Now's not the time for you throwing your arms around. Now's not the time to be walking off the pitch. Now's the time to make sure you lead those people. But he wants to leave. He wants to go and play somewhere else and that might happen and who could blame him? He wants to finish his career at a club that's achieving great things but I I do think he is the only player in that dressing room that could lead them cuz he's the only one that's got the inbuilt resilience and mental strength to get through a moment like It won't be touching him this. Other than on a personal frustration level, the fact that that he's playing in a team that isn't giving him the chances, the goals, the success he wants, but on a point of view of criticism, he won't be touching him. He's just He's seen He's played at Real Madrid, he's played at Man United, he's won five, six Champions Leagues, he's won Ballon d'Or. He's not You can't touch him with the criticism or words. It's impossible. So he can withstand all this pressure and protect those players on the pitch. That's what I think Roy Keane did with us, what Peter Schmeichel did, what Cantona did, what Robson did. They protected us. If I took prime Cristiano Ronaldo when he came in from Portugal and I put him in today's team, he'd struggle. He'd struggle. I think he really would struggle without Sir Alex's guidance, without the patience of Sir Alex and Carlos Queiroz who had that patience with him at the time. Do you think his career would look entirely different? look different. You know, you speak to Paul Gascoigne and ask Paul Gascoigne when he chose Tottenham over Man United and he says that if he'd have come to Manchester and work with Sir Alex, he feels as though his career and his life would have gone down a different path. And that's why I said at the very start of this interview why am I like I am. I was very fortunate that I wasn't in the center of London at 22 being led by experienced players who wanted to go to night clubs or to bars. I was in Manchester with Denis Irwin and Sir Alex Ferguson and Roy Keane and Mark Hughes and Bryan Robson who don't get me wrong, they liked a night out but they knew also that that had to come at the right time and they would be responsible and make sure you delivered on the pitch. So I feel blessed and privileged by the influences that I had in my life. We talk about influences now in a different way, don't we? But actually we're heavily influenced by the people that we come into contact with and that's where your luck comes in in life cuz I can't choose who I come into contact with in life. You know, you you walk into a business to take a job, you don't know if there's 150 people in the business. There could be some really good people in there that influence you well and make it really comfortable for you or there could be some bad eggs that mean that you have to have a bad experience and influences in a different way. I just got really lucky throughout my career that I arrived at United when they started winning the Premier League. And then obviously I had a brilliant manager. I had brilliant senior players. I had good parents. Everything was right in my life to influence me to be what I am today. Without that, I'm not the person I am. I wasn't Gary Neville resilient, tough, mentally strong, could handle anything, better work ethic than anybody else when I was 10. I wasn't. I was a kid just to be fair going to school like everyone else. But I had exceptional people around me, I believe, that helped me and I don't believe these lads now in that dressing room have got that around them or they haven't got that around them. I had a a thought cross my mind for the first time ever this week. And as a Man United to go down. Well, [laughter] I grew up My birthday year was 1992. So I've only ever known great times at Man United pretty much and it was the first time that I played out the scenario in my head that it's not guaranteed that we return to being champions. It's all I've ever known. And it was the first time that I started doing the equation of like how do great clubs fall? And this is one of the years where I've seen one of the real catalysts is Okay, so the brand starts to deteriorate, they lose commercial deals, then great players like Haaland and Núñez don't choose the club. Then we So we can't get great talent. We then don't have the money to get the great talent at an inflated price which we could have paid in in the first couple of years after the downfall. And then I'm thinking, okay, so this could we could there's there's a chance and I hate to say it cuz I'm an eternal optimist. It's embarrassing but every year when we do our little score predictions in my football chat, I'm like, "We're going to win the league." every year. [laughter] For the last three years I've I'm deluded. But this was the first time I entertained the thought that we might It's not guaranteed that we return to the club we were. Um I I I put us in the top four every I did it last week in my predictions. But you know something, I know full well we're not going to finish in the top four but I have to just because it's the Man United inbuilt thing that you say we're going to finish in the top four. But that's how our expectations have dipped as well because we used to say we're going to finish top. Yeah. Um No, I'm convinced Man United will return. Absol- absolutely convinced. Why? It's not arrogance this and it's not because I'm biased and it's not because I've gone to watch the club since the age of five. I've traveled around the world with the club for the last 30, 40 years. I've seen the extent of the fan base, the emotion that exists within the fan base, the scale of the club and it's too the foundations are too deep. But those foundations were created because of like generational success. Yeah, but we had a we had obviously the you had we had the Busby Babes period with Sir Matt Busby. Then we had 30 years, 25 years before Sir Alex brought home a league title. So we've had 25 years before that we've gone through without success. Man United um is not going away. It's not going It's too big. It's too big, it's too magical, it's too good. That is not That is not emotion that. That is just You I I I feel very, very strongly about that that is There is an element of cycle here that you know, we're getting sort of our down period. But we shouldn't accept that because I'm happy to lose football matches. I'm happy to be fourth in the league, third in the league, sixth in the league if we're doing the right things. So, have we got a world Man United should always have a world class stadium. It hasn't. It should always have best in class training facility. It should always have best in class fan experience. It should always buy the best being for the best players in the Premier League. It should always have young talent coming through and it should always buy should always buy young emerging talent from overseas. It's veered away from all five or six of its key principles and objectives that it's always ever had. Any business does that then it's in trouble. You've got owners that to be fair are now taking dividends out of the club. They're taking big large payments in debt out of the club or interest payments on debt out of the club. All the money that the club generates to be fair is not going back into the club and it's now come home to roost. They only own 69, 70% of the club and they need a billion quid to be able to fulfill those infrastructure projects that are needed. Their walls are closing in on them and they do need to do something big through partnership or through an investor or through a a sale in the next I think 6 to 12 months. This cannot go on. That was a watershed moment at Brentford on Saturday. What we were all experiencing in that stadium and I didn't obviously know you were in the stadium at that time but now I know you were and you said you were just compelled to stay cuz you couldn't leave. Everybody that I spoke into was like, "I've not seen too many things like that in 30 years of Premier League football." And actually I never want Man United to lose. But actually it could have been an important moment and a and a big moment where you actually start to think like you're thinking. Could we you know, people have said could we be relegated? I said last night on television, if we bring poor players in in this next couple of weeks or don't bring players in and Cristiano does leave which I think he may, we could finish in the bottom half of the table with a 1.25 billion pound transfer spend in the last 8 to 10 years and finish in the bottom half of the table. And so we are starting to think that way, but I've no doubt it's going to return. It's It's It's too big. It's too good. It's fan base is too great. It's It's enormous. It's It's I go I've been a I've been abroad and watched 15 50,000 people watch us train in Thailand and in Malaysia and in Singapore. And I've seen Manchester the passion still for the club is huge. And so it it's still full now. Yeah. It's just I just get concerned that if you know, there's another generation that are growing up without the the experience I had. And who are they going to choose in terms of you know We'll lose some. Yeah. We'll lose some. We have to lose some on the way. There will be some collateral damage. Depends how long we go through this. If this is two decades, then that's a whole generation that never saw what we saw growing up. So City City have done brilliant things. Pep Guardiola is a genius. The football is mesmerizing. The operation is slick. Um But I say this because it will bring, you know criticism from probably some football fans and certainly from Manchester City fans. It will never ever be Manchester United. And that's not arrogance. It just cannot be. What won't? Manchester City. It can never to replace Manchester United in terms of scale and size. It can win trophies. It can win more trophies, but it can never be bigger in scale and size. It's impossible. It does not have the roots, the history the It just does not have it. Manchester United is too set. We'll see. I'm I'm not I'm not worried about the long term. I'm very worried about the short term. Um What One of the things that people don't know about you, I believe, because I was I'm you know, I'm fairly well read on on what you do, but I didn't realize this, is just the scale of your kind of business portfolio. It's It's quite honestly mental. [snorts] I don't do all of the the media stuff that you do. I'm not, you know, on on TV all the time presenting football. I'm not in that arena. And when I look at your business portfolio and mine, I'm going this guy does as much as I do from a business perspective. But you're not you're not known to the world first and foremost as an entrepreneur. Maybe that's the second thing. People know you as a football legend. Second Second thing will be entrepreneur. And the second thing is you don't even like the word entrepreneur. Not really, no. I don't I suppose it's like broadcast I don't like the word broadcaster. Maybe it's like Maybe that is an insecurity actually or a vulnerability. People say to me, "You're a broadcaster." But I say, "I don't feel like a broadcaster. I don't feel like I've earned, you know, I feel like Martin Tyler or um you know, Des Lynam. They're broadcasters. They're journalists. They've They're experienced. They do it. I don't feel like a broadcaster cuz I feel still feel young, but I'm not young anymore that really in terms of been doing it now for 11 12 years. And same with entrepreneur. If you If I always feel there's something a little bit Can I swear? Of course you can. You swear all the time. It feels a little bit wankerish. Yes. [laughter] To say I'm an entrepreneur. Gary Neville Gary Neville CEO and entrepreneur is like No. Gary Neville chairman of the Relentless Group and entrepreneur No. Makes me sort of skin crawl a little bit. But I think to be fair, probably I should start calling myself that because I do have The There is one constant. They're all in Greater Manchester. Mhm. Apart from a media career which can sometimes obviously be in London. But they're all in Greater Manchester in Salford, Trafford, Manchester city center. And I feel very focused around my investments in that area. Some people would say that's naive. You should expand beyond Greater Manchester. No, I'm passionate about where I come from, where I live, and I want to invest back in to that part of the country. So the two hotels, the football club, the develop the big developments that we're doing, the university um the project management consultancy, all of them in Greater Manchester. Um and I want to continue to do things. I don't think I'll do many more startups. Although the overlap is a startup. But I just startups are hard. Do you think startups are hard? Oh, they're so painful. It's [laughter] They're rewarding, but the pain I mean all of mine have been startups. Right. So apart from Salford which to be fair is a bit of a startup. It was like eighth tier. They had 170 fans. They're all startups. So not one of them has been sort of a business that I bought into. I'm not sure that that's that's the way I like it cuz we can influence them. And we can make them our you know, our culture can come into the sort of businesses. Um But yeah, I I wanted to do a lot in business, but in Greater Manchester build teams. It's the teams part of it that gives me great satisfaction. And then Yeah, I love the sectors that I'm in. And it's crazy cuz you when I look at your businesses, when I've looked closely at them, you run really good businesses as it relates to attention to detail. Your hotel in Manchester, the Stock Exchange Hotel, I have to say is by far my favorite hotel. It's not even close. When I filmed Dragon's Den the first year, um all the dragons stayed at the Lowry. [laughter] Even though it was my first year, I was like, "Please guys, stay at the Stock Exchange Hotel." And I stayed there. It's by far and away there's nothing close to it in Manchester in my view. No. And I have to say some of my So the university I think is more of a social project. They're trying to be more inclusive and sort of remove the barriers to higher education. The football club started off as a sort of a a more of a social project in terms of bringing young players through and believing in young talent in football like we've been believed in. But then I also have this other side of me which is I want to raise standards. And we wanted hospitality to be the highest level in Manchester. And the Stock Exchange was my ambition to create the number one hotel, premium hotel in Manchester, luxury hotel. The same with the development St. Michael's which we hope to be the new number one hotel in Manchester when it's built, a new five-star hotel. Manchester only has one five-star hotel in the city center. Those Lowry's in Salford, but they only have one five-star hotel. So then some people will throw at me you know, how does that sit with your sort of social conscience that you've got these sort of expensive apartments, you've got these expensive hotel rooms, you charge 40 pounds for a steak? And I'm like I think it's okay to be offended by Manchester not having enough affordable housing. And also not having high-class luxury accommodation and luxury product. I'm offended by both. Why does Manchester all have to be sort of pigeonholed into this three four-star market? So this idea that in Manchester is that you know, and I get called champagne socialist sometimes. And sometimes get criticized for the fact that I have a university that is trying to improve you know, inclusion and and and and and and and access to higher education. But then Oh, Neville, he's just basically selling developments. You know, he's he's he's selling apartments for five 600,000 pounds. He's He's you know, his rooms are 250 300 pounds at Hotel Football or at Stock Exchange. But I'm offended by the fact that we can't raise the standards at sort of the highest level and the fact that we can't look after people and make sure that everyone's got the sort of a house to be able to live in that's of a comfortable size and in in the area they want to live. So I feel that I'm um a little bit torn between my projects and what I feel. But I want high standards in our city. I want Man I'm offended that Manchester does not have five-star international standard hotels. It offends me that London always has to have these things or that Paris you know, why do people from Manchester have to go to Paris or London to experience five-star hospitality and service. We should be able to get it in our city. So I want to drive investment into our city um and raise the standards as That was That was what the Stock Exchange was about, raising standards of hospitality. And we got to number one. Which was brilliant. I mean it's But you're right because if there isn't that a supply there for the high end, then the economy is going to suffer because you're right. It won't attract business. It won't attract um investment into the city if you know, if And that's you know I love coming to Manchester because I you didn't pay me to say this, but I love going staying at the Stock Exchange Hotel. It's better than my house. And at the standards there are, you know, unbelievable. Politics. You've become quite um political specifically on Twitter in terms of social issues and using your voice to shed lights on shed a light on things that you feel like are going wrong in politics. Mhm. What is the thinking there? I just I think I think it's Look, the thinking is that I don't think it it's not acceptable to be quiet anymore if you're in a position of influence. And if you're seeing something that's wrong. It's like your stance on the Glazers. Yeah. I think it's got to the point whereby I was I was quiet when I played at the club. And to be fair, we were winning. So you think, "Well, okay. Winning to be fair covers everything." And then when you leave, you think, "Well, hang on a second. You know, let's let them have time after Sir Alex Ferguson." But it's got to the point now whereby I can't keep my mouth shut on it. It's wrong. It is just wrong. Same with uh with with Johnson. Eventually his own party got to the same position that I was at and many others. It's wrong. We cannot have someone like that leading our country. I'm passionate about our country. Are you ever going to do politics? No, I won't do politics. And the reason I say that is that you know, sometimes you have this idea in your head, don't you, that you think could you go in? But the reality of it is it means that I wouldn't be able to be as honest as I am on television. I wouldn't be able to do the Sky Sports. I wouldn't be able to do the media. I won't be able to do my projects in Manchester cuz I'd feel conflicted with different things. And I don't think I can I think I'm more I think I can have a greater influence in Greater Manchester and with my voice in the media than I would do being an MP for Bury South. I genuinely believe that. I think I get caught up and stuck in the treacle and the mud like everybody else. That's what people say about politics. Just go in and you just get stuck. Um and I don't want to be stuck. I want to be able to try and influence things in the private sector away from public sector. And we'll get called a champagne socialist for it. And we'll get attacked heavily in the last 12 months by people from the right side of um the country in terms of you know, like regular every single day we'll get attacked for being a champagne socialist when I talk about say for instance the Stock Exchange or I talk about um you know, the St. Michael's development. And then they say, "Well, how can you be arguing against Boris Johnson? And how can you be arguing How can you be in the Labour Party?" There's this idea that you can't be in the Labour Party and be entrepreneurial and be successful and earn money. That the Labour Party have got to change that perception. They've got to change that perception. How is it that you cannot be someone who owns a business, makes profit, hands that profit back to its shareholders, and to the teams that you work with, create a great environment for them to work, pay them well, and that you believe everybody should have an equal opportunity. How can you not be Labour and have those principles? Because we've been basically conditioned to think that it's only the Tory Party that is good for business, and the Labour Party has created that. It's so true. It's one of the things that's really made me feel quite disenfranchised. I grew up with in a Labour family that I mean, I've never voted Tory in my life, but in recent years, as I've become more um successful in my career, I almost feel a little bit sometimes by some people, not everybody on the left, but some people on the left, that I'm inherently evil because of my success. Like I'm inherently a bad person because I'm an entrepreneur or CEO. And that that pushes you out. It almost pushes you into this middle. I'm not going over to the right, but and I want to belong somewhere. So, you're completely right, and I don't think that's talked about enough. I was so I saw an interview on social yesterday. I was actually been in the middle of Monday Night Football, and it was an interview It was only released yesterday. It was with Keir Starmer, and the gentleman asking him said, you know, "What do you earn?" And he said, "I earn 130,000 pounds a year." And he was about to start a line of questioning around Keir's position on um energy, and the fact that well, you can afford the 3,000 pounds, 4,000 pound energy bills this year. I was offended by that line of questioning. The leader of the opposition in this country, politicians, in my opinion, should be the highest quality of business people and entrepreneurs to be able to deliver the the plan and that that we all want. I think that we need to encourage people to go into politics. And the idea that the leader of the opposition was being attacked because he was on 140,000 pounds, because he's a Labour politician. It's almost like you're a Labour politician, you shouldn't take the MP salary. You should almost donate that to charity and work for like nothing. I mean, that's just ridiculous. I So, the perception of Labour and what people think about Labour is that if you're in the Labour Party, you have to be on minimum wage. You have to be a socialist. You have to think like that. No. You can think in a capitalist way, but with some compassion and feel like you can be equal with other people and and spread your wealth, and that actually you can want people to be able to afford their energy bills, and you can fight for them even if you're in a sort of wealthy position yourself. Why can't I or you fight for people who can't afford their energy bills this winter? Just because we have a bank account that's more than people would like it to be. I I I don't get that. I don't get that. I don't understand it. Yeah, it's a weird thing. I I I I don't get it. We have to change that. I think it's a perception. That's why I joined the Labour Party. To think that actually I can be successful. I'm a northern north from a northern family that have done well. I've I've earned good money and continue to earn good money, but my principles where I am now, even though I'm an entrepreneurial individual who to be fair has profit-making companies, I can be uh I can be Labour. I can think with with a social conscience. I I I I don't think that's a problem. To me, that has to be the future of the Labour Party. I have to say because then I'll And you're the leader of it. Oh, well, I I [laughter] I won't go into politics either. No, no, no, no, no. I No. No, this is enough. I like my life. I don't You know, I get criticized [laughter] as it is. But but um no, I I also have felt really disenfranchised by the left that I grew up um feeling part of for that very reason. And I I would love if anything to to see the next leader of the party really speak to that. And that would make me feel um energized again about politics. You talked about being attacked. You've talked about this unbelievable relentless work ethic you have. But when I say attacked, you get attacked every day on social media as you've said, but because you've got a big voice, you have it's unavoidable. You've talked about this relentless work ethic you have. And you've talked about how you had that moment where you collapsed one day. Over the last 10 years, our understanding of mental health and male mental health has risen tremendously. When I was growing up, to have a mental health issue meant that you were crazy. That's what I thought. That was the stigma. We've come so far, thankfully, from that perception. What has your experience been with understanding your own mental health over the last couple of decades? And have you ever had a moment where you've gone, "I need to put my mental health first now because, you know, other than that collapse moment where you've experienced anxiety or depression or these kinds of elements?" Yeah, I think that obviously losing my confidence as a football player, being criticized, stopping to having to stop reading the newspapers of the day. When at the age of 24, I didn't read a national news didn't read a tabloid newspaper from the age of 24 through to the end of my career. Why? Because they were damaging. Damaging how? Um if you read something really critical of yourself in a national newspaper, and the thought that then millions of people are also reading that, particularly when you're young and you're vulnerable, it impacts you and you lose confidence, and it I did lose confidence. So, I lost form, got criticized heavily by newspapers, would read the newspapers, and it would have a direct impact on me. Physical impact is it? No, no, direct impact on me in terms of how I felt. It would drain me of confidence. And then you get you almost then lose more confidence. About 6 months this went on for. I also at the time had lost um I I'd come out of a relationship um with someone I'd been engaged to and been with for 7 years. So, I had two things going on at once. Once I'd lost I'd lost my form, and I'd come out of a longer-term relationship. And at that point, I did feel really low. Didn't tell anybody, as you would you wouldn't do back in sort of well, what would that have been? 1990 or 2000. 2000, 1990 Yeah, 1999 2000, so 24 25 years of age. Um made two big mistakes against Vasco da Gama. Played a poor tournament for England in Euro 2000, and it went on for 6 months. Um but went to see a psychiatrist, and I got coping mechanisms. I got coping mechanisms, things that basically he taught me about about how to put things into perspective. And that dealt with my mental health issues at the time, and it also helps me to deal with things that come forward now of critical nature. When you say you were feeling low, what were the symptoms of feeling low for those 6 months? Not wanting to play, not wanting to take the ball on the pitch, and confident to take the ball and pass it, hiding a little bit, fearing games coming forward, anxious about games coming forward, thinking about my relationship breakup during matches, which is un un unthinkable for me. I remember playing a European game away. I think it was either in Anderlecht or somewhere like that. And actually thinking in the middle of the pitch about my ex-girlfriend, and thinking, "I'm playing for Manchester United. This is not what what's going on." And it impacted me in thinking that But then that happens, I'm sure, to every single football player. So, I knew that that that point then I needed to see somebody because I wasn't playing well. Um he subbed me against Real Madrid in the quarterfinal of the European Cup, um and I had a nightmare. Absolute nightmare. Um and I thought, "Oh." I remember we won the league that year at Southampton away. I remember jumping up. There's a picture of me jumping up on the pitch with the rest of the players, and me feeling empty, and not even feeling like celebrating it. I always remember that, and it was the worst league that we ever won for me. But for others, it might have been a great league, but for me, I just hated that league. I didn't enjoy it at all. I feel like I just needed to stop, and you know, I felt like I was spinning on a roundabout, and I couldn't get off it. Um I remember saying that to the psychiatrist at the time. Um and then he started to put these little coping mechanisms in place. So, if I get nervous before a game, think about what you're going to be doing later on that you're going to enjoy. If you have a really bad day, think about something simple like did you know, ask yourself a simple question, like I said before, "Did you always think you were going to have a good day every day?" Such a good question. And I love that question. Yeah, I thought I think I'm going to have some pretty bad days going forward. It's like self-compassion almost. Yeah, that's how I dealt That's how I dealt with my dad. Did I think that my there was a good chance in my life that my dad would die before me? Yeah, I I I was prepared for it. And that's not right, but that's how I dealt with it. Really simply. There was always going to come a point where my parents and grandparents were likely to die before me, and I would have to deal with that. What we can never ever comprehend is obviously losing someone that's younger than you in your family. We can't comprehend that. That's the unthinkable. That's the one thing if you said to me that sort of breaks me. Um that you know, I think I think would break me completely. But then on the other side, we know that, you know, my grandparents lived till they were eight in their 80s. My dad lived till he was 65. I thought I'd love I'd love I'd loved him to have lived another 10, 15 years, of course, but he didn't. But I was able to deal with it through the idea that he lived his life to the full. He didn't make those changes that I'm probably not making now. He carried on going out with my sister and the mates till 3:00, 4:00 in the morning having a drink, traveling to Australia watching a play, and you know, living life watching United every single weekend, doing the things that he loved. And you know, his life was taken away at the age of 65. So, I could almost explain that to myself and deal with it in a pragmatic way. Some people say I you know, some people close me say I've still not dealt with it 5, 6, 7 years on because I not probably shown the proper emotion and grief that I should have done through it. But I feel like I have dealt with it. Um just through being able to put those coping mechanisms in place. So, I always feel we all need those simple coping mechanisms. For others, it might not be the same as me. One of the big things I think for me is definitely training. So, I blew up at Sky one Boxing Day where I just run I always got the sprint to Christmas where everyone tries to get everything in before Christmas, and then you just collapse when you stop. Boxing Day one year, the only time I've ever missed a Sky game. Uh Everton v Hull, Boxing Day. I was going to Hull. I woke up in the morning, I couldn't get out of bed. And I just run myself into the ground. I'd stopped training. I was eating too much. I put weight on. You'll see in the first few years after Sky. I'd stopped doing the things that kept me well. So, training now, if I don't train for a week, I feel terrible. Not just physically. I feel it up here. I've got one of those bodies because I've been a football player. I know when I put I feel every chip. So, I feel I can feel it here. I can pinch myself. We're all the same as football. We had our body fat done you know once a week. We're weighing ourselves every day because we know that's big part of our performance. Hydration, nutrition, weight is a big part of our performance. And so, I know it. I've lived it for 15-20 years, but then I stopped doing that for the first five, six years out of football and then you blow up and then you feel awful. You look awful. And you've got people on Twitter sending you you know Jesus, you're carrying a bit. You know what I mean? Stop eating the chips. Choose the salad. All those things get sent to you on Twitter. You know what I mean? And you look at yourself in the mirror and you think they're right, aren't they? And then you start to think oh, I've I've got to change. So, you eat a little bit better. You eat a lot better and then you train. And training for here is it just frees me. I I don't No one likes it. I do it first thing in the morning, but once I finished it [sighs] I feel I can go I can go. And I wasn't doing that. So, that's an important part of my mental health strategy now. It's just to feel better by The one thing I need to deal with is alcohol. Cuz I like a glass of wine. You know, I can I can I can I drink one or two glasses of wine, but COVID I'm drinking one or two glasses of wine every night. And then now, even now, I'm just I'm at home tonight. Salford are playing at home. So, I can't wait. It's one of the greatest moments in my life now. Tonight, you'll get nothing out of me between 7:45 and 10:00. Salford are playing away at Newport. I'm not going, but I'm going to put the feed on on my telly, but I'll I'll have a glass of wine. And I'm it's a magical moment. I don't need it. So, I've got to stop doing that. We'll find out. [laughter] We'll have to ask Emma. Tonight. That's why I always have a glass of wine. When Liverpool are playing, you know what I mean? [laughter] 2015, um your dad passes away. When I was reading that in your story upstairs and the age he passed away, it struck a little bit close to home because um [clears throat] I feel like in my life my dad has had a tremendous influence on me and I feel like my relationship is not as close as it could be with him. And he has outlived all of his siblings, but in my view had a much more stressful life. And he's 65. And um I guess the question I had for you is like what advice would you give for me? And is there anything that you wish you had said or done whilst you all behaved differently whilst that person was here that you now know in hindsight? Um he's the only I don't ring people. I don't speak to I don't I don't ring my brother every day. I don't text my sister every day. I don't ring my mom every day. I rang my dad every day three, four times a day. He's the only constant in my life every single day, my dad. Um advice, looking after things what you're up to. He loved picking the kids up. So I made I put his office next to our house as well so that he cuz basically looked after my stuff as well. So for me he was the constant in my life every single day and that constant's gone now. And I always say this, I've still got him at the top of my favorites in my speed dials and I'll never move him. And it freaks me out sometimes, you know, when you're clunky with your fingers and you press the button just by mistake cuz my mom's underneath him and you want to ring my mom and you and some the odd time, once a year maybe or whatever, you press you know dad mob. And it freaks me out a little bit cuz I think I and it makes me get well up a little bit cuz I think I used to ring him every single day three, four times a day and it just went overnight. I couldn't ring him anymore. So, that's the constant has gone. So, in terms of advice, obviously I don't know your relationship with my dad. My my dad's relationship with me was so influential. But it would be to I say that I think this sometimes with my mom. What excuse have I got not to ring my mom every single day? I've got no excuse not to ring my mom every single day for two or three minutes and ask how she is, but I don't. My brother does. My sister does. But I don't have that relationship with my mom. I had it with my dad. I had it with my dad. So, for me just speaking to him every single day um I I I wish you couldn't tell my dad to stop going out with my sister and the mates, to stop going out with his mates, to stop going to the football, to stop traveling away to watch United in Europe. All those things that may have taken years off his life. Cuz people people say to me, "Do you miss your dad?" I say I do. But what I miss most is what he's missing with my children and my brother's children and my sister's little boy. That gets to me because I know how good he was with them. I know I I I saw it for six, seven years. It was unbelievable. He adored them and he was starting to slow down because of them. He was starting not He was starting to make decisions to stay at home to look after them rather than going out. But he gone out for 15 years and he had a brilliant life, did everything. You know, he did absolutely all those sort of things that you you you you read out at the beginning of the 217 caps and the the tournaments for my sister. He was at every single one of them. He was at every single one of them. He didn't miss a Manchester United game. I went I I walked out onto the pitch 602 times for Manchester United. And I waved at my dad 602 times there in that spot every single time or in the away end I'd have to try and find him, but that was easy cuz he was 6'2" and he had a massive big wire you know, head of hair. And I waved him every single game and if I didn't wave to my dad I could tell I found my dad. Some of the odd game in the away end, you know, Newcastle away. You see that where you sat up in that top bit. You're like you're looking for ages and I couldn't settle until I'd found him. I couldn't settle. That was one of the things. It's not a superstition whether it's a routine. So, to miss that from my life, I missed that idea that he was just there and then I feel comfortable. He's there. Right, I'm okay. Dad, anything happened? No, no, everything's good. All right, bye. Had to spoke to him and you know, anything it's it's that. You know, it's that that's so maybe speak to your dad, maybe ring him every morning. Maybe make him your first text. People say you've you've not grieved that. Some people close to me do. Because they were because they were expecting Maybe maybe maybe Emma, maybe maybe my sister. I don't know what Phil thinks about it. Maybe I don't know cuz I just carried on. We all I maybe we all carried on. Maybe we all carried on. You know, I I you know, on the day that obviously he died you know, it was only a couple of weeks ago, the anniversary of it. You know, I always text my mom, you know, I miss him so much, mom. And you know, I I feel that's the one time where I feel like I connect with my mom on it. I I don't feel like I can even talk to my mom on it. Cuz I know sometimes that you know, when when you've got parents that you're so close to and then they've been together what you then find is my mom's been unbelievable since you know, my dad passed away. She's absolutely unbelievable, my mom. But there are times when we're out for a meal together or I can see it and she'll just disappear. And she'll stare into the distance and I know where she is. But I can I never say "I know where you are, mom. I know what you're thinking about." I don't feel like I ever should say that. Because it's my mom's space. It's my mom's thought and you know, it's how we deal with it. It's how we deal with it at home. We just No. And cuz if I said to her, "You all right, mom?" And sometimes maybe the odd time I'd say, "Are you all right?" Yeah, I'm fine. You never get anything out of her. That's not what you know, we don't bring our problems onto each other. You don't bring your problems onto each other in our family. That's how we do it, but that's not right. We should talk to each other. We should encourage each other. But it's just the way we've dealt with things. But in our businesses now in the way we try all the time to encourage people to speak, to make sure that they reach out. But it's not how we probably act internally. There's a there's almost a bit of um I I'm I'm guessing from what you've described and as a lot of that might have come from your father. That that Or was he a an expressive emotional expressive emotions to be fair. I think my mom's probably less emotional than my dad. Yeah, I think my mom and dad's quite emotional. But again, he probably did. Yeah, he wouldn't push his stuff onto others, I don't think. But he he didn't do, did you? You don't do. I say the '70s and '80s period, you don't push your stuff onto others because the parents of my mom and dad grew up coming out of the World War. [clears throat] So, everything in perspective is that you've not got a problem. You've not got a problem. We had problems back then. So, don't you whinge about this. But we now in this generation now I think have to adapt and change. Cuz there's a consequence to not speaking about these things. There is. There is. There is. stored in the back room somewhere and they come out as you know, alcoholism or other addictions. we've all seen that in people around us and it shocks and surprises us. You know, I've got a couple of friends who've had issues in the last four, five years that I would never have imagined. Would never have even thought. And you think, "How have I not spotted that? How have I not seen that? How have we not opened up to each other about that?" It happens. It happens and that in all walks of our life. In all walks of our life. So, we have to we have to encourage it. Hopefully that's what we're doing here. Yeah, I hope so. When you you know, I I read that you when you look forward at your future, you kind of plan in 10-year cycles. So, the obvious question is what is what is what is the next 10 years about for you cuz you know I don't I don't feel like I believe that you're you're doing what you're doing because there is some finish line in sight. [laughter] No, that's me. Just It was like when we set up a a university. I remember the uh vice-chancellor of Lancaster said, "You do realize you're entering into something with no exit." Yeah. I like the idea of that. No exit. You can't sell UA92. How can we? We are UA92. Can't sell your own university. You can't In my opinion, you should It's what we are That to me is perfection. There is no finish I think it should go on forever that you've created. So, we don't think short-term. I don't think short-term. I never think short-term. But, like I say, I think I came out of football thinking the next 15 years were critical to establish myself in business and to try and remove that tag of Gary Neville, ex-Manchester United football player. That was my target. That was my plan. So, whether that be media, whether that be business, whatever that might mean. So, I'm 3 years away from that. I do feel like there are bumps in the road. There always are with businesses, but I feel like I'm on track. I need to continue to keep working hard and focus, but I wanted from 50 to 60 to be laser-focused and try and work on one particular thing. And that would be a result of my previous 30 years in work, the football experience, the business experience, the media experience and bring it together into something that I can go and do that's special. I want to do something special in my life. Um that's special to me, not necessarily special in sort of you know a greater sense, but special to me. I have a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast. My girlfriend came upstairs yesterday when I was having a shower and she said to me that she tried the Huel protein shake which lives on my fridge over there and she said it's amazing. Low calories, you get your 20 odd grams of protein, you get your 26 vitamins and minerals and it's nutritionally complete. In the protein space there's lots of things, but it's hard to find something that is nice, especially when consumed just with water and that is nutritionally complete and that has about 100 calories in total while also giving you your 20 grams of protein. The salted caramel one, if you put some ice cubes in it and you put it in a blender and you try it is as good as pretty much any milkshake on the market just mixed with water. It's been a game-changer for me. I wanted to ask you a a question that I've asked pretty much I think the last 10 guests as well, which is if you were to view your own personal happiness and fulfillment as a recipe of ingredients. And these ingredients come in different quantities, but together they make you happy. When you look at that list of ingredients, what do you think is missing from that recipe for you to be completely happy? Is it a good question or a difficult question? It must be a good one if I can't answer it. Shut me up on it. Well, I I I This isn't the question, but I but I've asked the last 10 guests that exact question, which is you know if you view your happiness as this list of ingredients and it's a recipe. Do I have a That's the problem. I remember interviewing Tyson Fury and he said I said, "What what what what does the successful life look like for you or what does the future look like for you?" He said, "Just to be happy." Mhm. I thought, "How simple is that?" I never think like that. Cuz I'm It's the goals or whatever. Yeah, even with football. I never enjoyed it while I was doing it. Yeah, it's crazy that. Because I just felt so intense. So, I don't feel like I'm ever assessing what makes me happy or what why I'm doing what Yeah, I I I I feel like I'm just like you said before, you're just doing it. Yeah. Yeah, there is an element of that. What makes me happy? Watching Salford um winning makes me happy. Spending time with my children when they're in a when they're in their good space makes me really happy. What would make you more happy? That's That's what I'm getting at is if what ingredient is potentially missing or out of balance in that recipe? I know others would say to be present more. What would you say? To be on a mountain in ski lodge isolated away from everything. It's weird, isn't it? [laughter] Why? Why? I don't know. I feel free on top of a mountain. I obviously found skiing after football. Feels really sort of basic what I've just said. When you're you're asking me something really deep. there's something profound in that, that solitude and space. and isolation and not You put that helmet on, the mask on. I'm up on that mountain and I'm free. The air's fresh and I feel like, "Wow." Free from what? From this. Mhm. Having to talk all the time. I think I'm quite No, no, no. I'm joking. I'm saying I think I'm tired I think I'm a little bit tired of hearing my own voice. I think that the next thing that I do at the age of 50 has to be something that means that Gary Neville doesn't speak as much. Don't believe you. [laughter] It's difficult that. Yeah. So, the closing question that's been written for you from from our previous guest is what are some words you've not said to somebody, why haven't you said them and who should you have said them to? I think it would be to my mum. That her and her mum and dad of all the people I always talk about having the influence on my life. Sir Alex Ferguson I mention all the time. I mention my dad a lot. I mention Eric Harrison a lot, Nobby Stiles, Roy Keane, all the influences that I I have. I never mention my mum and without a shadow of a doubt she's the best person that I've ever met in my life and her mum and dad were the best people I ever met in my life. That's making me a little bit upset. And they were the people who I think keep me grounded every single day because they're just good people who do the right things, who look after the family. They would put the family before everything and I don't do that. Why does that make you upset? Because they put the family before everything. And would drop anything for anybody in the family, their immediate family. But, I don't. And to be fair, Emma is similar. Emma is similar. They're far better people than I am. I feel that, you know what I mean? And I never tell them. Because they that traditional you know, they do their job, they get up, they work, they look after the family, their responsibilities to the family. Whereas you know, I'm floating around. So, yeah, it would be that I think. For them to know that that I I I don't take it for granted. I understand the the the importance of of that in my life and in our lives. The most I've ever grieved in my life was when my mum's dad died. It was the first person that I'd ever died. I was I was lucky to have my grandparents till I was 30. And my mum's dad died and I came home 2 days after my honeymoon started. He died 2 days into my honeymoon and we I came straight home. I didn't even break. I just got on a plane from the Seychelles because I had to. Because he he deserved that. He deserved that sacrifice for me to give up the honeymoon and that and Emma was fine with it. Because he had such an incredible influence on my life. Gave up all his time for me, took me everywhere. Cooked for me, was there three, four nights a week. I didn't need to do that. So, they're they those those three people. And there are there there are others obviously, but I think those three people and you know Emma is very similar. Gary, thank you so much. Thank you. Um I've watched you for my entire life on TV as a as a huge United fan growing up um and then obviously even to this to this day on the overlap and what you do across broadcast television. And I I think it's amazing and I I've after this conversation I figured out why you've managed to sort of grace so many different industries and reach the top in all of those endeavors. Um and it's because of that those the set of values that were instilled in you and that that you clearly exude today. Your relentlessness, your focus on hard work and all of these kind of old school values which I think are a little bit lost in my generation. Thank you for the inspiration. Thank you. You've inspired me so tremendously and your vulnerability and your willingness to be open in that regard I think is going to create a better future in many respects from for young men that are that are driving towards their ambitions and young women, but also um as it relates to politics and what's going on in our society. So, you're an a very important person and it's unbelievable that a a Manchester United um a Manchester United right back has gone on to do all of these things. It but it's a huge inspiration for me and many many people that are listening I'm sure. Thank you. So, thank you. Huge huge honor for me. I have to say that. No one wants to grow up to be Gary Neville. [laughter] Quick one. We have a brand new sponsor on this podcast which I'm very excited to tell you about. They're a brand called Blue Jeans by Verizon and they are a video conferencing and collaboration tool that has changed the game for our team. So, I'm so glad to be working with them because as you know, one of the most important things for me is when we have a sponsor, it is part of my world, it is part of my life, it is part of my companies. As someone who's on calls pretty much 80% of the day building my businesses, speaking to my teams all over the world, it's the guaranteed security that differentiates Blue Jeans from all of the other options that are out there in terms of video conferencing. Their enterprise-grade security means you can protect your organization from malicious attacks and establish real trust with everyone that joins your meeting and that is something. There are so many things that make sense and and make Blue Jeans um a better option than the sort of competitors out there and I'll be talking about all of those aspects, those features and the reasons why I use Blue Jeans in the coming episodes. If you want to check it out, you can head to www.bluejeans.com to learn more. [music] [singing]