Future Trends Forum on public higher education

Greetings and welcome to Future Trends Forum, a weekly conversation about the future of higher education. In this session, we explored how public higher education, that immense and diverse part of the American Academy, is transforming. Our guest was Dr. Rob Anderson, president of the state higher education executive officers or SHIO association. In our conversation, we explored many aspects of this topic, including the challenges of navigating a difficult or actively hostile political climate, expanding conversations and shio, enhancing higher education access in rural areas, the role of AI, the changing accreditation landscape, and more. I hope you find this session to be useful. There will be links in the show notes. And as always, the comment box stands ready for your thoughts and questions. One final note, I believe this video is the 500th recording of the future transform on YouTube. I'm astonished by the milestone, fiercely proud of our community, and excited by what comes next. Enjoy. >> Greetings everybody. Welcome to the Future Transform. I'm so glad to see you all here today. uh we have a really great guest talking about an incredibly important subject and I'm really looking forward to our conversation here on the forum. We've been discussing and exploring higher education from multiple points of view over our 10 plus years. Uh we've been addressing higher education from different sectors. We've had sessions on liberal arts colleges, on community colleges, on flagship research universities, but we haven't really had a session yet where we focus specifically on public higher ed. And this is an oversight. Uh in a lot of countries in the world, public higher ed dominates those sectors. In the United States, public higher ed is the biggest part of American higher red. About twothirds of American institutions, about twothirds of our teaching come through public universities. So, in order to discuss that, I'm really excited to uh bring President Robert Anderson, who is the president of SHIO, uh who is here to help us out. Uh President Anderson, welcome to the future Jones Florence, sir. Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here. I'm I'm very excited um about this opportunity and I'm intimidated, too. All these future thinkers on here and often I find myself kind of in this space and I'm I'm really looking forward to the dialogue and us learning from each other. No, me too. I have several friends who insist that while I'm a futurist, they are a presentist. Um and uh and so we always have fun with that. First question is um would you like to be how would you like to be addressed? Dr. Anderson, President Anderson, Robert, what >> I would love Rob, please. >> Coming right up, Rob. Um where have we found you today? I mean, you represent a national organization. Are are you in DC or are you somewhere else? >> I I am not in DC today. and and you know it's a it's been a ciruitous few years as president of SHIO. We're based out of Boulder, Colorado. Uh that's where our home offices are. That's where our nonprofit status is and all of our tax filings. But about uh four years, actually it's been about five now. I guess we opened an office in DC. And so I moved to DC for several years to assist with that. But um as I have aging parents back in Georgia, I moved a little bit closer to where they are to be helpful. And I'm on the side of a mountain just outside of Franklin, North Carolina, which is in the southern Appalachin Mountains. >> Yeah, it must be gorgeous terrain. >> It is. It is. It's It's quite nice and it's a couple of hours from my parents, so it's it's been a good uh situation for me. >> Oh, I'm I'm glad to hear all of that and I'm glad you can make time to join us. Um Rob, we we have this practice in the forum where we we ask people to introduce themselves not in the usual academic obituary style. You know, I I went to the school and did this one thing. We've already shared your your bio uh with everybody. The question we like to ask is what are you focused on next? What is the next year uh hold for you? What are the ideas, the topics, but also the projects and activity that are top of mind for you? >> Yeah. you know, a a big thing for me right now is um expanding the tent and how to go about that. And I guess what I mean is uh >> you know, I I meet with people like all of you in this group and and a lot of my colleagues around the country that serve in different uh type of capacities within higher education. And I'm reminded that maybe it's not that we don't have big enough ideas, but do we have a big enough table for people to sit around and kind of have meaningful discussions around these topics? Uh bringing their areas of expertise and being able to uh blend that with others. So that's kind of front of mind for me in a lot of ways right now is how can I be part of the solution in doing that? how can I how can I approach colleagues from different perspectives with better ears to hear instead of just kind of looking to respond and to to make my uh point clear. And so in an overarching way that's something that that I'm really focused on and and considering moving forward. Um, one dynamic that we have within what I do, you know, state higher education executive officers, each state has at least one. Some have more than one depending on how their functions are divided >> within state government. But these positions also turn over fairly regularly and depending on the state, they can be fairly political and dependent on who's the governor and whether this individual is coming in office or going out of office. And so we've done some uh focus group research around um what a lot of the current SEOs wish they had known when they came in. And so we're going to be in the process of working with our executive committee to try to develop a curriculum uh based on some of these truths that that we think we see across states >> to um assist kind of newer members coming into this role so that they can feel better prepared so that we can align them with phones in other states so that they have an opportunity to hit the ground running um in a little more effective manner. Uh what we kind of went into this thinking in terms of you know what would be a good 90day playbook that sounds great but what we quickly learned is that um this seemed a little too prescriptive to our members and and what they need >> is more of a broad-based understanding of what they're going to be facing uh what's been effective for people who serve in other states and how we can be of assistance in kind of getting their agendas up and running. Um other than that uh we have several projects that you know as far as our budget goes it's about 25% uh member dues and about 75% we go hustle for grants based on member needs and and try to develop communities of practice where we'll have states come together depending on what the topic is. They'll put in some kind of request to join, say who will be on their team, how they'll utilize this opportunity, and we make some tough decisions on usually eight to 10 states to come join us for any particular project, and then they go um increase their base of information and go out and do good things. And some of those topics that we're involved with right now are we have a a basic needs data academy to really help states better um get a handle on the data they do have to see if they are meeting basic needs of students and when these um opportunities are taking place on campuses and across states. They can measure whether their approaches have been effective. And we've found that this data is often very lacking uh in some type of formal scope. And so we're having uh some work with um about six states in working on that. Um we also have another group of states working on justice impacted uh work with students within their states and how to formally improve that curriculum so that uh we can make sure that they're having their due opportunity and uh cut down on recidivism rates moving forward. Holistic advising is another big topic with a handful of states looking at how they can better uh structure advising opportunities. And so, you know, within these state teams, they have different campus leaders that are talking about some of their policies and practices and how they can share with one another. And finally, just one other one I would mention is a rural talent development group of uh mainly very rural states and just acknowledging the opportunities that do exist in our rural communities and what are maybe some middle middle skill degree programs that can be developed to try to grow out this economic opportunity and to have people stay in their place where where many of them would like to if the job opportunities exist. So, so acknowledging the importance of place, the importance of community, and trying to grow out kind of our our rural opportunity where we often see it lacking in some places. So, that's just a handful of the types of projects that'll keep us busy over this next year. >> It sounds like you're you're engaging with American higher education in so many different levels. I mean the individual projects the rural opportunities um trying to grow your network to include more and more people that training people to be um in in the you know um state office that that's always an incredibly powerful thing especially when someone's turnover might be just two years or so. Um friends if if you're new to the forum I'm just going to ask our our our good guest one more question but then it's going to be over to all of you for your questions and comments. So, please as as you listen, think about what you'd like to ask. Uh, I have a couple of questions from um one colleague who couldn't make it here today. So, I'm going to I'm going to put I'm going to share those if we have a second. Um, in the chat, in fact, Carl Alejo mentions that they have a center for rural resilience at Tarleton State. If we're not on your radar, I'm sure you some of his colleagues will be very glad to be involved. That's rural Texas, southwest of Fort Worth. Thanks, Carl. That's a good connection to make. Um I I say that as someone who doesn't work for SHIO, so I'm just happy to, you know, give SHIO more work to do. >> No, no, it it's outstanding to learn of these opportunities. We're we're formally working with Kansas, Montana, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia. But then we also have what we try to do is have a set of formal states that are all in. But we also have a network of states that are that are hoping to gain learning opportunities and come to some of our convenings and those states meet together as a more loosely affiliated groups. So we're hoping that learning and connection can happen at a whole lot of different levels here. >> I'm I'm really glad to do that. The the forum is global or at least Western Hemisphere depending on time zone. So, we're happy to bring in as many different people as possible. I one question I wanted to uh Laura to ask is um I'm really struck by that training module you're talking about for getting people up to speed in a hurry. What are some of the commonalities uh some of the universal ideas, practices, traits that anybody in in this kind of position needs to know? Yeah, that's a that's a really good question. And you know, it's some of it is kind of self-evident and and it it also creates kind of a fluidity to the process and into the politics can can really matter and uh is is one of them. And you have to assess kind of your what your predecessor's role was, their interaction with an administration, and how your style and who you are as a leader kind of fits into that model. So that's uh >> one of the big ones we found. And um another one that we heard time and time again is that a lot of leaders want to hit the ground running and have two or three ideas they're going to put out there as kind of their platform. you know, the difference they're going to make and they rush that process too much and end up wishing six months later they could that they could backtrack a little. So, um also taking your time then to meet with um campus leaders with other state leaders and your uh governor's office and your legislative committees to better understand and ascertain kind of what some of their needs are um is a is a is another critical element. Uh one final one I would mention here is um creating a structure to where this communication between your office um elected officials as well as campus officials can be more systematized. Uh for instance when I when I was at the University System of Georgia they had something they created called regent advisory committees to where um look looking at different fields of study. you would have a group of leaders and provost from these campuses within English or history or or math or whatever the field might be that met with um system staff monthly and they'd have a conversation around a particular agenda and update each other. And that way by creating that environment when big issues do come up some that might lead to disagreement or you know different perspectives you at least have established relationships and you have that uh kind of built-in respect for one another to where you can at least talk about things openly honestly and with a good heart as trying to you know reach some some type of solution. So th this is just a few of kind of uh what we're trying to put out there and uh and within this curriculum that we're going to help put together to try to emphasize. >> Well, I'm sure people in this position across the country would be really uh excited uh to have this learning and in what six months we should have a whole bunch of new people in those positions across the country. No, you're exactly right and and that's something we're very aware of and something my executive committee's also mentioned that I think is spot on is to thinking about the next cadre of people who might enter these positions. You know, it's a it's a management position at a state level. A lot of people when they get into higher education don't even really know these opportunities exist and maybe their skill set and what they enjoy doing fits with this type of service. And so to to better identify who if they receive some training or some opportunity or some encouragement might be willing to be in that next group that that uh comes along. >> Well, that's terrific. Thank you. That's those are great answers to my first Nikki questions. I I was going to follow with more, but we already have good questions bubbling up in the chat. This is one from uh David Steel, who Congratulations, David. He's finishing up his dissertation. Good for you. Good for you. This is essential. He says, quote, "This focus is on leaders of public universities and their responses to external political dynamics. My research has underscored what I think we all know there is a massive variation between worlds inhabited by public education leaders in red versus blue states. How does SHIO account for that chasm and its implications for its members," unquote? that. Yeah, that's a really good um question and it kind of gets at the heart of the matter of what I think about day in and day out. You know, as a as a nonprofit that represents all 50 states as well as um a couple of different territories. I see we have DC, Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, >> and and others um across the political spectrum. How do you thread that needle without not doing anything, without just kind of throwing up your arms and saying, you know, we're just going to tiptoe through the tulips uh so to speak? And um I I think what what we do for one is is uh when Tom Harish came on board with us, he also started a uh survey um of of kind of the most important elements um in any given year to our membership and economic and workforce development tends to lead on that list is the difference that >> these leaders try to make as far as that connectivity to be what's being produced on um campuses to outcomes in the in in the workforce and with an economy because that's what frankly speaks to governors and legislators in a lot of way and and how you can make that case for further investment. We know it's a lot more nuanced than that and what we're producing and the skills and hopefully they go beyond um you know just widgets and cogs and things of that nature, but that's an important connection to make. And so with all of our 50 states, we, you know, keep the focus on a few of these areas such as that college affordability, return on investment, and um, interestingly enough, operating support for institutions. That's one thing that's at near the top of their list. >> And so we we work on these as well as the types of projects I've mentioned before. And I think what we found anyway within our membership, even though with all of the dynamics at the federal level right now, how different state politics can be, we can usually frame things within our own specific political context in such a way to where we can get at some of the um outcomes that we hope to on this front. Um, I know this uh isn't um necessarily addressing the day-to-day pressure that's being felt on campuses right now of being told, you know, what programs of study to or not to include. And and I think that's a whole um different element than kind of how we hit some of this within how we interact with our membership. And so we we kind of keep it um at this higher level with understanding that state politics do differ. Uh when we had our annual meeting this past year, you know, it it it's got the state leaders from Florida and Texas as well as Massachusetts and Oregon there. So they're having these really open, honest conversations knowing that how they enact any given measure is going to be quite different from another, but uh that there's common space to talk about what the problems are and to kind of work out some of the specifics of their solutions on their own. So I I'm I'm really proud that over these last several years, we really haven't lost any members. And I think they do appreciate that this is kind of a safe space to have these conversations wi without having to get too imshed in in some of those uh politics. >> That's quite a needle thread. Um and I I my hats off to you for being able to do that. Um David, would you would you like to join us? Open up your mic and uh add any anything you'd like to contribute based on your dissertation and Rob's comments. Thank you, Brian, and thank you, Rob. I appreciate that. Um, no, I really uh I mean, I could I could ask questions that would fill another couple of hours, but I I think the whole concept of threading a needle is probably quite um apt as a as a um visual of what what we're trying to do here. Um, and I'm looking forward to the rest of the conversation. That's it's a huge thing you're trying to pull off by keeping all those folks together on the same page. Well, I I appreciate that. And but you know, it's how do you stay focused on getting to some of these outcomes that you desire and when it comes to it, you want all people achieving at at a higher level and that requires closing gaps. And we know what the research shows when when um who trails in some of the higher education outcomes. So, how do we go about achieving those same outcomes with maybe um um paraphrasing how we've traditionally talked about that in some new ways? Like, you know, the current administration, they're stressing uh ideological differentiation on campuses. They think it's too monolithic. I agree that that should be something that we all aspire to as well. And I think and trust that our campuses are working to make sure that that multiple perspectives are presented on campuses and and and I think you know some pushes in those directions aren't necessarily bad in and of themselves. Um the process that we're using to get from A to B to C. You know, I kind of like this meeting right here where we're all sitting around and we're having a discussion and we're learning from one another and it's going to challenge us to maybe improve or to to change some of ways in which we've thought about things. So anyway, >> and and Rob, the people that I spoke with for my research were not uh leaders of state systems but were university presidents and chancellors. So the the people that your people are leading and one of the things that really struck me was the ones who seem to be most successful in this climate are the ones who are able to determine which battles to fight and which ones not to. >> I I think that's an astute observation. >> Thank you, David. Um, and again, friends, if you're new to the forum, you don't have to be writing a dissertation on the subject. It really clearly helps, but we're we're glad to have any of your thoughts and and questions. And thank you, Rob, for the very thoughtful answer. um in the uh in the chat um uh our shio vice president friend Tom Harish put in a link to uh their uh leading policy issues and I I tried to copy and paste the the text from that and it looks kind of brutal um but it's really I think important to see that u so many of these areas are very um in many ways very objective very material and I think uh should be universally supported um so thinking in economic terms, college affordability, economic workforce development, the value proposition, um but also some of the you know uh some of the questions about transfer pathways and about retaining college graduates in certain states. So thank you Tom for for sharing that. We also have a question from our great friend Steve Man also previous Peter transform guest out in Maryland and Steve recommends this and then has and then has questions priority for Rob's curriculum get people to become conscious of which paradigm or set of assumptions has a greater influence on their agendas that is is higher rate about delivery instruction can all students be ranked on axis of aptitude with those aptitudes not changing during college. According to research, all these assertions are probably false. They align with the instruction paradigm. Bob, what do you think? Frankly, um I haven't haven't delved into it that deeply to to consider, you know, what might be the presumptive paradigm or where different members of both our planning group and people out in the field are going to be coming from on that front. Um I I think it's I think it's great advice, which is why I just wrote it down as far as what we might consider. We're having our first organizational meeting in a couple of weeks with a subset of our executive committee member who wants to be front and center. And part of part of my task will be beating them back to where we don't try to do 10 things with this first iteration of what we're doing, but that we um can start to align in a direction and maybe get a little bit of funding because part of this we will want to hire some outside expertise. this this won't be a lot of administrators trying to come up with a curriculum that might not necessarily fit into our specific um skill set um with us not uh serving in the classroom day in and day out. So I I I think you've you've given me something to chew on on that front and and um it is something that I'll discuss with my executive group. >> Well, excellent. Uh Stephen has some excellent writing that I can always commend. Um he's uh a very very thoughtful um and effective commentator. Um we had u a question from our good friend uh at the California State University system George Station. So another public university system uh and he asks do you engage with or analyze faculty systems that is he was thinking about unions but clearly there are others or put another way do you get to talk with faculty in your current role I I I really don't when I was um in academic affairs at the University System of Georgia that was a regular part of my interaction and and frankly I I miss it uh to be completely transparent Um, you know, it was one of those things where I was always braced going in because faculty can are highly analytical and can be highly critical. Um, but once I learned how how to kind of um integrate that information into, you know, something that's positive and productive as far as an outcome or or a product, I became a lot happier person. Right now though, we really don't I would say the closest I come to that is in thinking about or looking at um our different states and state systems such as California and Pennsylvania where there are very active unions and and how that dynamic plays at hand when you're looking to enact change. there's a whole lot of different complex layers that that a a Shio office has to work through and uh completely um understand why they exist and how they protect different classes of individuals and I think that's very very important but it's new layers of com complexity and it's it's tougher to roll out initiative sometimes because of that I I wish I did more of that in my day job I used to like speaking with uh Dane Greenstein who was in Pennsylvania when he was dealing with that when they were restructuring, but I I don't deal with that nearly as much as I would like to. >> Well, that's that's a straightforward answer and and George, as always, thank you for the very good question. Um, friends, if you're if you're new to the forum, you could see that we're all about these questions, so please keep in, uh, again, you can use the Q&A box if you prefer or just use the chat where, you know, people are rolling along right now. Uh, John Martin has a comment and I can detect a question in it. Um, and I'm sure Rob you can find the question better than I can actually. It goes like this. We agree that multiple perspectives on campus are great but can get pushed back on when we promote pluralism or perspectives not approved by politicians. So I guess the question is what do you think of and John if if I'm getting this wrong please let me know. What do you think of viewpoint diversity um as uh as a new cause and this occurs in in private institutions as well but on the public side what do you think about where this is headed? Um, from my perspective where I sit, one thing we've become involved with recently is a movement uh, uh, Carol Gary Schneider and a few others are are involved with civic engagement in a democratic society. And I've been working with the former president of Northeastern University on recruiting states to be involved with this and to try to figure out, you know, what this looks like and this type of engagement in their own uh state context. Um because, you know, obviously it can differ greatly, but we can set up a structure to where there are some parameters and and rules that that people are kind of working within. Um, you know, right now we're at a time where it's kind of a top down thou shall and it there's a lot that's being dictated on that front. >> I guess my concern is if there's a feeling that the pendulum is way over in one direction that it would swing too far over this way instead of maybe have having more of a of a centered conversation that takes kind of all perspectives into consideration. And and I think what that's going to take frankly is, you know, there's always been this healthy tension between state offices and the folks that that I primarily serve in campus leaders and campus faculty and, you know, they have their own healthy tension on campuses between administrators and faculty and and those exist for for for very important reasons. And it's important that that uh people bring these different perspectives in. But I I think in some ways we're going to have to better figure out how to um h how to engage as a higher ed community with the state administrative office and what's taking place on campus and just be proactive in some solutions or some directions that we put up kind of as as far as kind of addressing some of these um issues that exist and some of these critiques. Um I think the public you you could argue as far as the reasons but I think they've become disenchanted in a lot of ways with higher education and you know I I think it's been used as a political tool for a number of years um is is as as far as you know one's perspective on on the value of higher education where is if if we bring um together this disperate group of individuals who all care about you know outcomes about students about what's being produced knowledgewise um ultimately economically for some that are involved in the group. I think maybe we can create some of our own solutions in a in a proactive way. Uh my concern is that legislators will feel the need to stay overly um involved in the minutia of higher education and many of them most probably don't have training in this area. They rotate in and out of office. these perspectives can can change. Um the typical climate any given year can change. And so by working better together, by increasing the size of this table where we can bring our ideas and have these conversations, hopefully we can temper some of that to where they won't feel the need or just won't have that kind of um platform [clears throat] anymore to be involved as they seem to want to be these last couple of years. Robin, I'm curious at a material level, how does she hold these conversations? Is that through webinars? Is that through uh face-to-face um conferences? Is that through facilitated consultations that you arrive at? I'm just curious. >> Yeah, it's a it's all of the above, I would say. Um I have a monthly check-in call with SHOs. uh you know, it's going to be on the the you know, third Thursday at 3 p.m. and we'll uh talk about federally kind of what's going on, but then have an open opportunity for them to present any questions or issues that they're dealing with to me and staff as well as one another. Um Tom also has a monthly check-in with specifically the federal relations officers to talk about some of these >> broader issues and and within SHIO we have u various constituent groups you know like if you're the academic affairs office at a officer at a state office you you're in a unique role and your colleagues are going to be the people that serve in that capacity in different states. So, they also have monthly check-ins as well as the fiscal affair officers, uh, data and research officers, and a host of others have these regular check-ins. Um, we also have an annual meeting, um, every summer in DC to where we'll have a a setout agenda for two and a half days. We try to get federal officials involved as well. >> And that's specifically for these that this uh, chief officer at the state entity. And usually we get we get a turnout of about 80% or higher as far as people coming and giving a few days of their time to come have these conversations. So that to us is an indicator that it is valuable. And another summer meeting we have is our annual policy conference which is in August of each year most recently in Chicago. um not because of my doings but when I started uh about nine years ago it would be attended by maybe 225 people and we we've grown to our biggest one of about 650 people and these are largely uh state uh higher ed leaders at these types of offices that I'm speaking of but also more and more academic researchers and people that study this space in this area. Um also a lot of our funders and and other partners in some of our activities are there as well and it's um program content for about three days in which we have a host of um peer-reviewed sessions that have come in and that we've developed an agenda around. So these combined with the other initiatives that I mentioned earlier that we're kind of taking on with groups of states >> set kind of the the uh undergirling our foundation for what our year kind of looks like and how it operates. >> That's quite a lot of activity especially in the summer. Wow. Well, thank you. >> It's a busy summertime for sure, but we've found that to be best for a lot of these individuals as far as a season when they can actually get away. >> Definitely. Definitely. And it's it's a sign of how good the quality is that you get them to Washington in the summer. >> Exactly. In the middle of July. Yes. >> Oh my gosh. Um well, we have um Thank you. Um and and we have more questions coming in. Uh one is from David Stone who asked a question that I was expecting. Um a hot topic in society these days is AI. Higher education officers need to be wellversed in the nuances of the issues related to everything from adoption by the institutions and partnerships related to data centers and other aspects. Who are these leaders leaning on uh for getting up to speed on AI? >> That's a that's a a really good and timely question. Um obviously uh with the advancements that are being made, you know, daily by the minute maybe um the the phrase that constantly comes up as we have these conversations is is we're trying to develop this policy while we're on the plane and it's being built at the same time and and it's a moving target and um it it's easy to get paralyzed and I I think uh where folk are now is frankly trying to discern who can they lean on as far as outside expertise in this area. I had an interesting conversation um with an organization just this morning, a a nonprofit called uh Limnus who was developing a white paper that is going to try to get at um ways that state leaders and campus leaders can screen pitches that are being made to them for quality and you know if it can measure up to you know what's being purported. I I go to ASU and GSV out in San Diego in the spring and over the last five years this tilt toward everybody having AI as a part of what their company does or how it fits in and that that it's a panacea for all you know all the evils that are out there and and I don't you know begin to know how to kind of screen through a lot of that. So, I would say when we're just really at this conversation stage of of trying to discern um who's doing what, you know, state leaders don't want to get too much in the weeds and some of these issues that are specifically dealing with um academic um achievement um approaches to learning on campuses. But at the same time, they want to be very aware of of the ethics and and and the rigor around kind of discerning that around what's out there and what's being done. And so, we're definitely in this kind of limbo space right now and trying to develop, I think, a list of partners who can help us fare through what they see as being productive and what they don't see as being productive on this front. But we had this real-time conversation in July and that's kind of where it was. you know, I I was kind of getting at it from if we can kind of um wrap our heads around one or two issues, I'll go look for some funding on that and and we we didn't really frankly get to that point at that time. >> Well, I think this this would be a a fantastic opportunity for you all. The uh the big risk is to circle back to earlier point is that this being political. I mean, you mentioned this is in July. Over the past two months, opposition to the data centers has just soared and become bipartisan. uh which is really interesting. Um in the state of Michigan um and folks here can correct me or update me. There was a a big coral about the University of Michigan wanting to help site a new data center for some um major AI projects nearby. Um and a lot of opposition to that. Um, I mean it's it I I think you guys could really do a wonderful job of of bringing people together to think about AI at the at the state uh public education level. But I let me pull back because there's other questions that have come in that are much better than mine. U one comes from Taylor Rasmin um and from Pennsylvania says he's currently working on a policy analysis for his position to discuss rural education. He's part of patchy, Pennsylvania's public higher education assessment. He's noticed that many states have promised programs to help tuition, but very few policies cover out-ofpocket costs outside of post-secondary education. In Pennsylvania specifically, we have counties that have neither a two nor institution in them, leaving hundreds of thousands without access to public institutions, while our state faces an enrollment cliff. How do you bring back interest to placebound rural areas and assist lowincome students to not only traditional degrees but everything beyond high school? Pennsylvania, he goes on to say, is the third largest rural state after California and Texas. >> There's a whole lot in that question. Um, you know, we're working we work with with PY, of course, but we're working on that rural project with Kate Shaw and and her team, which is also in >> in Pennsylvania. Um, and it's it's an interesting dance in that it seems like when you look at a lot of state legislatures, um, rural areas have often been very powerfully represented in their states. Um, you know, traditionally in some of the settings I've been in, you'll have individuals that'll that'll get these positions early on. They might run up unopposed or we're able to kind of hold on to power and and that's kept them front and center as they head up committees as they become, you know, Senate Presidents and things of that nature. And it's just a clear reminder of the importance of rurality and and making sure that they get some of the infrastructure dollars and it's not just near whatever your your big city kind of happens to be and and the roadways and kind of the needs of that. >> Um you know I think data takes you so far. You know people have developed these maps around education deserts and kind of what that looks like and we see the areas >> that are lacking. Um, but it also just needs personal experience and stories um that are put before I think rural leaders within states who have sway and influence to let them know, you know, what your current situation is, what the status is, where you feel the needs are and how we might can address some of these needs. And you know, you hear about uh online opportunities may be helping amilarate some of those concerns, but at the same time, in some rural areas, the the the biggest limitations to access to um some of this type of online opportunity, you know, because of infrastructure needs is is lacking in some ways. So, I I I think we have to start to address some of those issues. I think um you know, one thing I would really like to see is is campuses come together and talk about where there's rural need and and maybe they each have part of that puzzle. Um whether it's faculty wise or research wise or kind of what they can provide to develop out a program that serves an area, but maybe it's just apart from this school and apart from that because none of them have the infrastructure or can absorb the cost of just standing up a program on their loan. and on their own. And I think um providing those types of opportunities of of of kind of working together, figuring out some type of cost sharing model around that, I think might provide opportunities to serve some of these areas, but it's just not one institution trying to foot that bill. >> This is clearly something that you guys have been thinking a great deal about and and and and working very hard on. Um thank you for that excellent excellent answer and uh thank you for the question. Good luck in Pennsylvania. Um there's a an awful awful lot of work to do there. Um it's not easy. Um Rob, we have uh we have two more technology questions. Um they're they're very different, but they're complimentary and I I think um I think you might enjoy tackling them one after the other. Um, one of them is from uh, one of our friends in Scotland um, Vene Dik who uh, asks this. Given the technological change, particularly AI, industry expectations and political pressures place divergent and often conflicting demands on universities. How do higher ed leaders experience the challenge of forming a coherent strategy? How do they navigate these tensions and what direction do they consider appropriate? Yeah, that's a great question. It's probably more than I can really bite off with a cogent response. Um, I think, you know, you see a lot of people a little bit frozen in the headlights right now as they try to discern what is a best path forward because this is an area it can it can really stink particularly when you're a state leader to be on the bleeding edge in a situation and then it blows up in your face. um uh you know, one it doesn't look good for for you and your team. it can set back your progress to a um certain degree and it it further kind of erodess this trust of higher education because look we gave them all this money to do X and they've totally bungled it and and and I think you know what strikes me about your observation in this question is the the kind of different marching orders or kind of mandates from from differing areas and it it can be tough to to quite know how to split the baby sometimes and I think a lot of our higher higher ed leaders are having these conversations trying to figure out what to do with that and you know they have limited ships. Um what bucket are we going to put them in? How are we going to try to address um some of these concerns? But technologywise um you know I I think so many leaders feel that there's this overpromise by vendors. it doesn't quite pan out and everything else is an expensive add-on as you try to adjust the original contract that was developed. And just having enough information right now to even double down in one of these areas while at the same time knowing you probably should have taken action six months ago, it it's a very um disconcerting feeling and I think it's where a lot of leaders kind of find themselves at the moment. I'm sorry I can't give you a more definitive answer in that, but I think that's where a lot of folks find themselves. >> Well, it's a great question. He has a a wonderful habit of asking very very deep uh thoughtful questions. Always grateful and I I appreciate Rob your wrestling with them. Um David Stone asks kind of a flip side question or raises a flip side technological subject. says he'll add that there's a general trend towards technology resistance on the parts of parents at the K through 12 level and an anti- AI sentiment among younger students for all sorts of reasons. The parents and students are also becoming vocal in technology in general. So there's no question there just an observation but I'm wondering you know how's how does that occur in the at the shield level? Now I I I think you're spot on. And when I first heard that some of the younger generation was kind of skeptical of AI, I was skeptical of this observation. And then I started having my own conversations and that that's what I was definitely finding. There's just a lot of concern and there's just a lot of not wanting to go down that path. Kind of wanting to protect who I am as a thinker and and and an individual and my autonomy and not turn it over to something else. Um, and these are a lot of bright, sharp people that I that I've had some of these conversations with. Um, you know, in in in my head, and I think the way a lot of leaders feel is this train is going down the track and and and you can you can get on board and figure out how you're going to leverage some of these resources. How are you going to go about parsing out what's going to be humanled versus machine-led and who's going to make that decision and how are we going to go about putting those processes together? I think those are critical questions, but you have to have that intermingling in some way. the the ca kind of anti-technology um that we're seeing at some of the younger levels and you do see you know in some of these localized communities that we hear about is very concerning to me because I what I don't want it to become is a further divider between those people who who you know have the resources or the uh education capital to kind of make it happen and and those who don't and could be left even further behind. And so that that concerns me greatly um as far as finding this this kind of happy medium of of of a of an approach that that that is productive is um you know acknowledges all of these you know myriad perspectives but deals with the real world that that that this all is moving forward and we have to have some some plans and strategies of how we hope to to harness and and utilize what is a a very powerful tool is indeed. Um, in the Rob in the in the chat, Katherine Penfield um builds on this and says uh her daughter hates AI. Digital natives have been taught since birth about how to keep themselves safe online. They should know how to protect their data, so they're reluctant to give their data to AI. And she adds, they will choose in person with friends over over screen time. So this is our our good friend in Quebec, Matthew Pur says these are digital Amish without the community to support them. Um I I I agree Mia I I think the term Amish is better than LA here. Um but Rob, this is a very powerful train. Um and at the state level um give a certain perspective on that. We have another question and I'm conscious of time here. I want to make sure we don't lose anybody. Uh Lisa Moyes um adds this as state higher education authorities work through unstable fiscal conditions uh she mentions workplace workforce pel no department of ed closing colleges reduction NIH and NSF grants lack of public support etc. How will the definition of public higher education change in the future? Are we becoming a lifelong learning concierge? It helps a student to piece together PLC, microcredentials, dual enrollment to transfer credits into a degree. >> Yeah. I mean I I think that is more and more the the trend is is this kind of lifelong learning and even this you know these stacking these credentials in different ways or you know maybe they're more parallel with each other in some cases than than stackable but that >> that but that you're going to have these opportunities and you uh you know pathways might require a certain retooling and retraining. Um, and you know, kind of going from this mindset of just in case credentiing to just in time. So, so you're you're actively developing a skill set that's going to help you, you know, 6 months from now or that you've got a job in a certain company and this will help you get to that next position. Um, you know, as an example, when I was in Georgia, we worked with the financial technology fintech community a lot. They were very active in and around Atlanta and and we helped develop some pathways of stackable credentials to allow people to advance in this field. And it was interesting because all of these, you know, big players were very interested in such a thing. Yet none of them wanted to share their secret sauce of what they considered to be pri proprietary um fully. and it just became very complicated and and even though they understood the positions in their company, what these skills might look like and and how we could help provide that, you know, we made a lot of progress, but it took a couple years to go to to get to that point, which um is is probably slow when you think of our our modern economy and kind of what's going to be needed moving forward. Um some states are really starting to look at um credit for prior learning and how that fits into this whole model. This one project we have called capacity building approach to institutional change has Nevada and Washington state kind of working on on that issue and how how to take some of these uh CPL experiences and put that into credit in some form or fashion. You know, the key is you want to be responsive to these student needs and you really want to provide them greater opportunity, but you at all costs have to protect quality of of of what's being produced. You can't call this something when it's not going to be that at all because it's going to be the student or or graduate who's then expected to fill such and such of a position and they're just not qualified to do it because they haven't had that rigor. So, we're big about protecting that rigor. >> Well, that's a I mean, I should ask a kind of basic question, Rob. How how does how does Shia work with accredititors? Yeah, th those are interesting um conversations. I was the I was the board chair for an organization called NC SAR for a while that deals with a lot of the online activity around education. And I was on that board for six years and uh several of our our members were goss were heavily involved with it as well. And and you know that kind of direct interaction with what have been up until now kind of a traditional accrediting space is is being expanded. You know we have a new entity that's being developed right now. Um this has started with a lot of southern states but others are getting on board and it's seen as an alternative um u approach to accreditation as far as a new entity that that I think they would argue doesn't fall into some of the historical trappings of some of the others and is a little more streamlined and efficient. Um I'm I'm not going to pass judgment in any of that. I think that's just a perspective there and they're in the process of being approved and I think this administration will um allow them the accelerated you know type of process that they need to get through and I'm not saying that and that it's a rubber stamp because I don't think that at all but we're going to have other players in the field and so what we do is this has become a little bit more nationalized and states can choose and some states have even put into their code that they have to change accredititors each cycle Um, and so that to me, you know, that that can create a lot of confusion. But, you know, it their states that they can do what they want to in that front, but what we find ourselves doing is having a lot more direct intense conversations with people who head up that they accrediting agencies. And frankly, I have found them to be highly responsive in these conversations to what you know, some people are saying are barriers to why we would want to work with you or work with the creditors overall. And and I think there is a an increased responsiveness. What's going to continue to be a huge area in this front though is what's what's ultimately going to be that dividing line between um you know what's allowed and what's going to be described by an accredititor is maybe you know state overreach into the affairs of a campus and I think that's going to be the million-dollar question is where we start to draw those lines. Um but with [clears throat] increased opportunity hopefully states can find uh >> solutions that fit their specific political climate. Oh, that's a tricky political balance to strike and of course do this across 50 different states plus territories. And um thank you. Thank you, Rob. I I I I opened a can of worms for that simple question. >> No, it it it's a serious and complex issue and and the fact that what we haven't had higher ed reauthorization for 18 years or so. I I think as we're getting through this, >> both sides, you know, back to my big enough table that need to come together and have some serious grown-up conversations and strike compromises if we have to, but uh to to put to have some more clarity around some of this. Everybody's not going to get what they want as far as they see it as as a great solution. But I think we can uh increase clarity and and thus uh rules and policies and regulations in such a way that campuses know what to expect and the students they serve know what to expect. That would be a good thing. That would be a fine thing indeed. We have a couple of comments, not questions, but I want to make sure that uh that we share them from the chat. Michelle Dunar says this reminds her of the two-year community college model and there are signs of distinctions between two-year and four-year institutions are minimizing. She points to California community colleges seeking to offer bachelor's degrees now. Then Katherine Penfold adds maybe we need something else altogether conversations like this smaller learning communities less bureaucracy. So, these are these are great thoughts, but I I want to seize the moderator's privilege and ask the last question before we completely run out of time and and that's this Rob I I know this is a big question. This is going to be a um a a tricky one to answer in some ways, but what does what does American public higher ed what does it look like in say 10 years? You know, we're looking at 2036. How does it how might it look different from where it is now? >> Yeah. Um, [sighs] what I would say from the seat I sit in is I think they're going back to that idea of a lifelong learner. I think they're going to be more subsets of of credentials that are linked to specific workforce job outcomes within states because states have greater and greater interest in these linkages to their top industries and and and and uh top fields within their context that they feel that they're paying for through their dollars. So, I think we're going to see >> more and more of that. Um, I also think that uh there's going to be increased dialogue amongst state leaders and campus leaders amongst, you know, what specific structures look like and and and um um what's going to be considered to be good service, you know, is as as far as uh what what's coming out of an institution. and and you know there's a big part of me that that kind of recoils at that because you know I I I think we have serious leaders um who have great skill sets on our on our campuses and need a certain level of of autonomy but I but I think this this uh this idea and this kind of need for control is going to be um exerted and I think what we're going to have to do as a field is to h discern how to more proactive ly address some of their concerns. You know, when there's differences, >> it's often out of a place of fear or concern and and how can we acknowledge that in another party and and hopefully all bring our humanity to the table. >> And just a a reminding of kind of why we're there in the first place and who we're there to serve to develop solutions in some of these pathways so that they aren't quite as antagonistic as as things seem to be between differing ideologies right now. What a perfect perfect way to to to wrap this up. What a great note to end on. Rob, thank you for that answer. Um, which is very hopeful and thank you for being with us for an hour of conversation. Uh, I've learned so much from you, from your work, from your organization. What's the what's the best way to keep up with you all? Does Shio have a newsletter? Should you follow you on the socials or what? >> No, that's great. Yeah, don't follow me on socials. I I never put anything out there, but um we to Tom Harish provides a daily update um as far as some of the more state specific higher ed trends and kind of what's going on right now uh on any given day. We have a monthly newsletter that that you can uh also subscribe to and we have a host of publications including a quarterly roundup of different state practices that we put out there as far as some of their big issues initiatives and kind of policy issues that they're trying to address and we aggregate that quarterly. We also have a big state higher education finance report called Chef that comes out annually that provides a wonderful update of the current landscape between tuition and state appropriations and what that mix looks like, you know, also intermingled with state aid. >> Well, that's that's terrific. And uh speaking of Tom, in the chat, he just put out a couple of links. So, I hope everyone the three links is um busy as can be. So, please everyone follow those links so you can follow up. Uh Rob, thanks again. Uh you've been a terrific guest. I I' I'd love to have you back in a year just to return to see how things have changed. Um but you've been really really helpful. Thank you so much. >> Well, if the opportunity presents itself, I'd love to and I can say this is the first time I've attended this, but but I'm going to come as a as a guest on in the dialogue and participation next time. This is a wonderful wonderful forum and group. Thank you so much for inviting me. >> Thank you, Rob. Thank you. And my thanks to everybody for all the great thoughts, the stories, the questions. Um, as always, it's wonderful to learn with you. But don't don't take off yet. Um, we have sessions scheduled out right now through uh January 2027. So, please head to the forum website to find out more information. Uh, and in fact, if everything goes well, the recording of this session will be the 500th recording in our YouTube archive. Um, so that's a a major milestone. Well, everybody, I have to go around and teach a class, so I have to go. Um, but thanks to everybody. Uh, I hope you all have a great fall semester. I hope everything's going well, and especially, I hope each and every one of you is safe and sound. Until next time, we'll see you online. Take care. Bye-bye.