From Money to Molecules: Taylor Murphy '16 on Leading AI Transformation in a Global Enterprise

Hello, I'm Jeff Hemsley and this is another episode of Infoiversity from the High School at Syracuse University. Today we're joined by high school alumni Terry Murphy, Taylor Murphy, sorry, from 2016, a digital transformation leader working at the intersection of strategy, technology, and human- centered change. After studying information management and technology and global enterprise technology at the high school, Taylor began her career in financial services at Fidelity and moved into technology consulting at EY and now partners with product leadership at Sani. How do I say that? Sanopoy. >> You can say Sani or Senhi. >> Seni. I like Senhi. That's >> okay. Great. to design and operationalize its global digital R&D operating model as the company works towards becoming an AI powered pharmaceutical enterprise. And we're going to talk a lot about AI and stuff like that. She describes her path as going from money to molecules, which I think is very clever, blending fintech rigor with pharmaceutical innovation. Alongside her enterprise work, she she's also the founder of a leadership and strategic clarity advisory, Taylor A. Murphy Coaching, supporting professional women navigating career inflection points and personal transformation. Today we'll talk about what it really means to become AI powered, how to translate big ideas into actionable, scalable processes, and what leadership looks like during periods of transformation, which I think is very relevant at the moment. So you study the information management and technology here at the high school. What foundations from that experience still show up in your work today? >> Yeah, thank you Jeeoff. And again, thank you for having me on the podcast. It's an honor to be here and to support um and hopefully serve the high school community at large. Um so I think there's so many things that I learned and experience at the high school that I've really carried forward into my career. Um, I think not only just the technical concepts that I learned in classes and the coding experience that I had while serving in class, but also the ability to be able to communicate very effectively has served me quite a bit. And I think that's a very underrated um part of the curriculum that the high school really provided me. Um, we were not only learning, you know, the the hard technical skills in class, but we were also practicing our public speaking and communication skills by being being forced to public speak in class and um I think for me also serving as an high school uh board of advisor for the students and being able to serve as a panelist for the IT girls retreat program as well um also allowed me to hone my communication skills. And I think that has really served me very incredibly in my career. Um because a lot of my career has not only been you know supporting technology teams but it's also been serving as that liaison between the technology organization and the business that we support to be able to translate really technical concepts into business impact so that we can share you know the huge technological impacts that we're having and how it relates to the business in which we support. So, I really think that piece has really served me well. And I think in addition to that, just the the community, the close-knit community that we have in the high school and those connections that I've made have really served me in a lot of job opportunities in a lot of just opportunities in general where not only, you know, for internships and jobs, but just also to foster, you know, close community and connections outside of graduating from college. for instance, like I don't think a week goes by without me communicating or connecting in person with somebody that I met either at the high school or Syracuse University. Um that that community has been a huge impact on my career. Um and so I think those three things, not only the the technical concepts of course and the coursework that we do, but then also the blend of the technical concepts with being able to communicate them effectively has really served me well. You know, I love hearing that. I I love hearing that you're plugged into the alumni network. I think if there's one thing that I want to communicate to people that are thinking about the high school or students that are already here, it's that look, the Syracuse Alumni Network is incredible and very active and there's just all sorts of opportunities that can come there and you know, you're in some class with some person and you never know that person may hire you someday. Exactly. >> So those kind of connections are invaluable. >> Totally. Totally. >> So how did your career evolve from Fidelity to EY and into leading digital transformation? Yeah, that's a it's a great story and I and I've talked about it on other podcasts before, but I'll try to keep this somewhat succinct and brief, but um so gra so upon graduating from the high school, I had the opportunity to work at Fidelity Investments um and go through their their Bleep program, which was basically their kind of technology upskilling program um for new graduates out of school to then be embedded within the organization. And so I was in Raleigh, North Carolina for about a year um going through that sort of postgrad upskilling program where again we did a lot of public speaking too. So it kind of it was like a beautiful blend and extension of like a lot of the things that we did in the high school which I thought was really awesome. Um, and then I worked out of our Marramac New Hampshire office and I did a lot of different techni had a lot of different technical roles which really laid the foundation of like understanding like global enterprise technology and then I was able to go into more of our product model where I was supporting applications mobile applications in in this instance for our uh Fidelity brokerage technology. ology division. So I was helping build mobile applications for broker dealers and registered advisors to be able to support their clients. And so I I learned I started off more back-end infrastructure technology. Now I'm working more client front end where we have endusers that we're supporting. Um and so that was a fun experience to kind of see the going from sort of that backend enterprise technology to front end. And I think in that period of time, agile and scrum were really hitting the scene. And they they were starting to talk about it more within our organization. And I was really learning kind of what it meant to work in a agile product management kind of organization. Um because again, we had very ambitious goals. We wanted to uh be able to push and ship out features very quickly to our end users. So I felt like that was a great ex hands-on learning experience for learning like what it means to work in a very agile environment. So I was able from that experience to get scrum master certified, product manager certified, working with developers, business sponsors, you know, and being that liaison kind of like what I said before of translating what we're working on technologically to how it's going to be impacting the end users that we're supporting. So I was able to serve at Fidelity for roughly four years in that capacity. And then I knew I wanted to get just more experience working across staying within the financial service industry but working across a lot of other enterprises. And so that's when I made the transition to actually move into consulting and working at Ernston Young, which also has a tremendous amount of Syracuse and high school graduates that that work there. So, I was able to really expand my, you know, Syracuse and high school network going into EY, too. Some of the some of the the um some of the employees I had met while I was while I was um attending Syracuse, but I I met so many more people that I didn't necessarily cross paths with at Syracuse. So, it was really great to um feel connected back to Syracuse and feeling like, you know, joining this huge organization, I wasn't really alone cuz I had so much support from others. And so, in my four or five years at EY, I was able to take a lot of the hands-on experience that I had at Fidelity and be able to scale that to other enterprises. And I think that's where I really learned about how to craft really efficient operating models because my niche at EY not only working in our f supporting our financial services industry but being a technology consultant who had actually lived and breathed and work in an agile product organization and a lot of organizations at that time were really trying to transform their organizations to become more of that agile scrum product organization because they wanted to be able to compete effectively in the marketplace and be able to ship out products at scale. So I was able to really leverage that hands-on experience at EY and be able to scale that out. And then towards the end of my career at EY, I had been supporting at that point the financial services financial services industry for about 8 to nine years. And I knew that I wanted to make a change to a different industry and see what the opportunities were there. And health and wellness and health care have always been a big passion of mine. So I considered moving over into you know the life sciences and pharmaceutical industry. Um so at the conclusion of my time at EY I actually um decided to take a little bit of a career break to make sure you know kind of what I wanted my next step to be. And during that time during my my brief career break I was also able to upskill myself in AI because that's when we were having these conversations around okay generative AI a lot more people were adopting chat GBT and other GBT technologies. So I really decided to take a step back to upskill myself so that I could also be effective wherever I decided to pivot to next. And so during that career pivot, I was able to again upskill myself um take a t take a muchneeded break and then also emerge in this new opportunity that I have at Santa Fe with clarity, clear mind, leveraging past experience, but also now embedding AI into my day-to-day as well. So I joined Santa Fe about a year. It's almost been a year. It feels much longer just with how much fast-paced change has occurred over this past year. But I joined Santa Fe and have been supporting our digital research and development division in creating a global scalable you know AI forward operating model to be able to support those teams to effectively build out products to help patients. So that's that's my current journey today. So that sounds really big like when companies say that that sounds massive. What's actually involved in that and and what is your role in making that all happen? >> Yeah. So I when I was hired my they really liked the fact that I had worked also in a different industry too. I didn't necessarily have that legacy understanding of pharmaceutical and life sciences and I thought initially in my career pivot that was going to be a blocker for me to be able to go into a different industry but I think that actually served me well because again I don't necessarily have that historical business context but I have the experience of building out these operating models again with that agile product mindset at the heart of it to be able to help the teams be able to organize themselves effectively because I think when when companies and especially Santa Fe they talk about AI it's really not necessarily laying AI on top of already existing systems it's like how do we keep AI top of mind and how do we like almost self-organize ourselves differently so that we can leverage this incredibly powerful tool in order to enhance our processes and systems. How can we think about problems and technologies differently? Um with the sole intent of always keeping in our case the patient and patient centricity top of mind. How can we leverage AI to solve our problems? How can we and in an ethical way too of course and we can probably talk a little bit about that later too but it's like how do we organize ourselves differently to and leverage this technology for us to go faster and be able to solve our problems faster and I've it's insane how much has changed since again like I started la last year how much has changed um within our organization and how we've organized ourselves differently how we operate differently ly and how we're just able to ship things out so much faster and at scale than we have in the past. >> So, um, so a couple things you said. One, you talked about you talked about essentially keeping things top of mind. That's a people problem, right? Like that's not a technology problem, >> right? >> I'm wondering if you can because a lot of companies are struggling with exactly this. In a lot of cases, something has to change internally for adoption to take place, >> right? >> Do you have any concrete examples of how that's being facilitated in your organization? >> Yeah, for our organization, a lot of it had to do with upskilling our our staff to these generative AI technologies and other AI technologies. I also think I'll take a step back. It's also a huge mindset shift. Well, it's not just an internal organizational change. It's an internal to the person change as well. >> Yes. Exactly. because it's AI is fundamentally shifting how people view the world and see problems that it's an internal shift and adopting kind of this digital first AI mindset to be able to adopt it easier because I think a lot of people are very comfortable with how things were and how things have operated in in the past that AI has been so disruptive of a technology that you almost have to take a step back and kind of go to first principles thinking and like build it up from there. First principles being like breaking something down to its like most truth point and then kind of building processes, procedures, mindsets from there. And a lot of I think on top of that too, it's also how people show up in their day-to-day roles. Um in the past I remember when we were talking about um kind of shifting to a agile product way of working the old legacy kind of operating model was more of a waterfall approach and that was a hu in those transformations that I was supporting at Fidelity and EY that was really all a mindset and organizational change too because it's a very fundamentally different mindset to work in an agile way and being able to iterate and stop when things aren't working and reassess assess and measure and like adapt from there that I think it just requires people to be able to drop something that's not working very quickly and being able to pivot and shift and being okay with something not working the first time around and being able to measure what is working and kind of lean into that a bit more. So I think organizationally we've also had to upskill people not only on the techn technological side but then also like what does their role look like? A lot of people have been moving from being a project manager into more of like a product owner. What does that look like? How is that different? Um what are the expectations around that role? Who who are the new stakeholders that you work with? Do you have an understanding of what the business problem is? How does that necessarily translate to the technological products that you're supporting? Are are the things that we're building actually moving the needle towards our overall grand vision? So, it's a lot of these different ways of thinking that I think are the hardest to overcome. Not overcome, but the hardest to adopt and adapt as we move forward. Um, and that's been I think the biggest struggle that I've seen um across the organization and that's across any organization. It's a the change is happening so quickly. Um the the the rate of tech the technology and the and the different tools that are available for us to leverage. I feel like a new one pops up every day. And I think I can lean back to my consulting experience where a lot of the fundamental core things as being a consultant is like being able to ramp up and understand something really well very quickly and being able to ramp down and kind of pivot into whatever your next client assignment is too. So I think I've developed that skill set of being able to kind of ramp up and ramp down on information and being able to pivot if something's not working. And I think that's also a very entrepreneurial way of thinking about things too. My organization I feel like we feel like a startup within this large larger global enterprise. Um and I think again just the mindset piece is it's going to be challenging and I've seen that be challenging for people. And then also in my role, how can I show up to support the organization to make sure that they have the information, the skill set, the training, the upskilling that they need in order to be effective in their roles, too? Because people really in times of change and transformation, people really lean towards clarity and direction in those moments of extreme transformation. >> Yeah, I'm going to pause this just for a minute and close my door. >> Sure, go for it. They have noisy people. >> Yeah, we had a street sweeping earlier, so made sure to close my window beforehand. >> Yeah, I should have thought of that. It's usually pretty quiet around here. It's >> all good. >> Sorry, Anya. Okay. So, um I guess another thing that kind of comes to mind for me is how do you help organizations turn their blue sky thinking into clear structures, roles, and direction? >> Yeah, I think it really all centers back to creating a really effective operating model because again, we can have these large sweeping strategic directions, but it's like that's great. How does that drill down to how does that affect people in their particular roles? So, I think we do a lot of communicating to the organization through kickoffs and town halls and making sure that everyone's very clear where the strategic direction of the company is. And then also for our organization, we also clearly explain, you know, what our overall goal is. In this case, we're really for from an R&D perspective, we're really trying to cut the drug disco discovery life cycle in half. Right now, it's around 14 years. We really want to try to get it down to seven years, which is a very ambitious goal. And we want to make sure that everybody within the organization knows that goal, know that it's, you know, a large a large goal that we're marching towards. And how do we, you know, set up our operating model? How do you know what your overall strategy is for your particular role in your particular product line that you're supporting? And making sure that two-way communication between, you know, people and leadership is effective and clear so that people know what's expected of them and knowing what KPIs that they're trying to hit in order to to reach these goals, too. That's a that's that's a massive goal and I imagine that could save billions of dollars and I also imagine that AI is probably pretty key in that goal. >> Absolutely. Yes. It's em everything that we do is AI embedded and there's AI embedded in everything. Um an example that I can share is we as a company um rolled out our own proprietary generative AI tool. I think it was around It was 2025. is around like the summertime and we wanted it was important for the organization to do it completely in-house so that it can be totally trained in everything proprietary for our company and making sure that you know guard rails were in place, governance was in place like all the frameworks um and all of the information within our company was was train you know the tool was trained on this to be able to support employees and you know started working started working with it and embedding it into my day-to-day and it's insane how um sophisticated that it has become in a very short amount of time and how much of a timesaver it has been for me in the day-to-day role that I play um to help you know with internal communications stakeholder alignment um you know a first pass of a slide deck to be able to share out to executives like it's incredible you know how much it enables me to do my job better and really sharing with the organ organization to be able to adopt this tool effectively so that they can you know more of the the admin and the logisticals of their day-to-day can maybe be taken care of with the use of AI so that they can focus on the science they can focus on our goals of you know cutting this drug life cycle in half um keeping patient centricity top of mind as well so it's been it's been great to see and adopt these tools so are. >> Yeah. So, you're you keep talking about AI as tools or just tools in general. >> And I think part of the the problem for organization is training people up on new tools. >> But, >> but, you know, once you start playing with it, you start realizing other things it can do. Like, we often think, okay, a screwdriver, it's for turning screws, but you know, we also use it to pry things and to do other things with it. And so I think as people use it more and more, they're going to find more and more interesting ways to use it. >> Absolutely. Yeah. >> So a lot of people are concerned about ethics and I'm sure that's a I mean you're dealing with patients, you're dealing with all sorts of things around implications that could really be harmful for folks. >> Yes. >> So talk about that and talk about how your company is thinking about that. >> Yeah. I mean, I've come from two now two industries that are incredibly regulated. Financial services and now life sciences pharmaceutical. And especially for for us, we're dealing with incredibly sensitive p patient data, molecules, stuff that that the scientists are working on in the lab. So we have to always be incredibly thoughtful and mindful about the information that we are sharing and using and making sure that we have the proper governance and frameworks in place to make sure that you know we the the information is being used ethically sensitively all the things. So I feel like even before people were upskilled on the tools that that are at their disposal to leverage in the company, there was already the governance framework in place because that's been something that I've been working on, you know, for for almost my entire tenure there, making sure that the governance models are in place to make sure that, you know, the information is secure as well. And specifically at Santa Fe and this is public information we have something called the raise framework which again is making sure that the information is being handled in a very sensitive manner. Um and before anything's dep deployed for production they have to go through a very rigorous set and standards. Um procurement's involved legal is involved all of all of the major stakeholders are in place. And I think sometimes people can see those as bottlenecks. But again, it's all about having those [clears throat] checks and balances in place to make sure that what we're building not only is satisfying the needs of our overall mission of, you know, being being patiententric and doing what's best for our patients, but making sure there's no long-term implications of some of these tools that we're using both internally and externally as well. So, we're we're very mindful. um incredible amount of governance in place. Again, it might be seen sometimes as as a boon to to development, but again, you need to have those checks and balances in place to make sure things operate effectively. >> Can you give us a couple concrete examples of what kinds of things are non-negotiable? I think anything that is specific to like that's outside of like HIPPA compliance for patient data like that's a huge concern and making sure that nothing that's built is any way harmful or exploitative of that sensitive information and I think again because we are a global company we also have to satisfy the requirements across multiple different countries as well and for instance like a lot of the government in Europe like is very um sensitive to to a lot of that sharing of data and and patient data that's being shared and that compliance. So again, we have a full team that is just solely dedicated to making sure that that information stays in house. >> Great. Okay. So you've kind of been through a bunch of different kinds of transformational efforts. >> Yeah. what what makes it stick and and what kinds of things prevent it from sticking? >> Yeah, I think what makes it stick and again change of any magnitude is is challenging. You're you're rewiring from a from a brain chemistry perspective, you're rewiring neural pathways and that's very challenging and it requires a lot of repetition and a lot of consistency and a lot of intention to be able to make those sorts of changes. I think aspects that make change easier is making sure that leadership is communicating clearly what the overall goals are and to making sure those goals are being cascaded down to the actual team that's boots on the ground to be able to understand what's expected of them from past transformation efforts that I've worked on when that birectional communication is not in place and there isn't psychological safety within the organization to be able ble to ask hard questions and to be able to pitch ideas and to be able to share concerns. I think that's when transformation really slows down because people don't feel safe to make um to make um to make mistakes and to be able to iterate and learn from them. So what we try to do within our organization is really try to establish psychological safety to be to make sure that people feel comfortable to be able to voice any concerns they have, any questions about um how we're operating and what's expected and kind of what our two-year plans are and to be able to make sure that this information for them is also distributed effectively and that people have access to it. A lot of what I do um is to make sure my my role is almost similar to like a chief of staff role. So making sure that the organization has all the information that they need, all the support, all the tooling that they need to be effective. And again, I think when back to communication, I think that's like the pillar of any transformation is like being able to communicate early, often, consistently, have the same messaging because the amount of repetition that needs to happen in order for something to really stick in your brain is a high amount that most people don't realize. Um, and again, not everybody's capacity and appetite for change isn't is the same. So being able to help shepherd other people along in kind of where we're going and making sure people are bought in to where we're going is also important too. Not only the stakeholders within our technology organization but also our business stakeholders that we support. We directly support the scientists in the lab. So making sure you know that they have everything that they need and that they feel supported and that they feel the the feedback that they're sharing with us about the technology products that we're building for their use as because we they they're our main stakeholder that they feel heard and recognized with the challenges that they have to deal with in the lab. >> Yeah. And I imagine that AI is one of the tools that you're using frequently to help you do a lot of that communication. >> Yes, definitely. Yeah. And I think and I think there's like a a really awesome quote that's actually embedded into our generative AI tool that we use and it's it's AI advises, humans decide. And I think that is a beautiful representation of how I internally view AI and how to use AI. Again, AI is an incredibly powerful tool. It distills down information. It pulls information from all these different disparit siloed systems um and being able to generate insights from it. But again, at the end of the day, humans are the ones that decide what to do with that information and making sure that we always have agency and the appropriate guard rails in place to be able to to use it for good. >> Yeah, that's interesting. It it makes me also think that um humans have to decide to use AI. >> Right. >> Otherwise, companies aren't going to get the kind of adoption they want to. >> Totally. >> Okay. So, let's talk about our students. >> Yep. >> The world is changing fast and AI is just going to keep kind of nudging that along. >> It's going to change the workforce. It's going to change the kind of jobs that people have. people are going to have to be in those kind of decision roles. Um, and I guess I guess the question I want to ask is if you could tell our students one thing to help them in this new environment, what would it be? I think it's really adopting a solution mindset because there's going to be so many different challenges and problems that you know that I faced even starting my career and working in organizations too and I think the reason why you know people have enjoyed working with me for instance is because I always am focused on what the problem and the solution is and being able to you know adopt tooling AI whatever ever effectively to be able to support me in creating that solution. And I think with the amount of change that's going on and and the new what kind of this new workforce is going to look like, it's going to be, you know, autonomous being people being able to leverage AI for different use cases and being able to solve the ultimate problem. And I think part of it too is also coming at things creatively and create coming up with creative solutions that with embedding AI into those creative solutions too. So I think like the more we can also like double down on like what makes us human and what makes us creative as well to help with these problems and these solutions would also be a great mindset and skill set to adopt as well, >> you know. Um, so I like what you said there. I think that a lot of people are really concerned. Like there's a lot of talk about uh well there's kind of two schools of thought that I've heard. One is um all AI is going to ruin all white collar jobs. They're just going to [clears throat] all go away. And then other people are saying well actually smart companies are going to find ways to use um the workforce >> to employ AI to become more productive so they're more competitive with other companies. Yeah. >> And I imagine your company is in the transition of figuring that out figuring that out. [clears throat] >> Um any observations about what that looks like from your perspective? >> Yeah, I think the people that are going to be, you know, top not only in the job market but in these organizations are people that are able to adopt AI in their day-to-day as seamlessly as possible to be able to allow them to do things more quickly, efficiently, etc. And again, give them that time freedom back to be able to focus on cultivating create creative solutions and and kind of like I said earlier about like doubling down on like what makes them human and what makes them unique in their specific skill set and gifts because everybody is has been uniquely blessed with certain certain gifts and almost just like lean into that more and figure out like what makes you you and what makes you unique cuz I I think also in this AI age and I see it a lot online. You know, I during my career pivot, I also started building like my own personal brand. It's leveraging LinkedIn as well, which I think would be another great tool for for the high school population to use, especially as they're emerging into the job market as well. Um, LinkedIn's an incredibly powerful tool. And I think the more but I think the more that everybody can double down on what makes them unique while leveraging AI and the and the the freedom and the power it gives you to be able to scale ideas is definitely something that's going to differentiate people in the job market and beyond in the future. >> Okay, I'm going to change course now. >> Sure. >> Um because you you coach high performing professional women. I do. >> Navigating inflection points. talk a little bit about what what does inflection points mean in that case? And then also because you've it kind of looks to me like you're doing that at two different levels like a personal level and a and a corporate level. >> Correct. >> So what's the same and what's different? >> Yeah. So I think right a lot of the women that I coach right now are coming to me because they are in the middle of a career pivot very similar to my career career pivot that I went through about a year now ago and I think there's a lot of people that may not be the most fulfilled and purposeful in their current role and you know they're hearing all this news about AI and what you said before like AI is going to incredibly um impact and change the workforce like what are the things that I can do or h how can I leverage this time to maybe switch into a different career maybe start my own side hustle or side business um or you know building a personal brand on LinkedIn etc. So I think for that again women are coming to me really wanting that support because they've seen me be able to do that and take you know maybe something that wasn't as as aligned for me any longer to something that now I feel like I'm I'm thriving. I'm really enjoying what I do in my daytoday and I was able to make that pivot successfully because I think also people see how challenging the job market is today and how challenging it it can be to find a new role and I think there's a lot of people um that frankly have started panicking about it. But I think back to what I said about like doubling down on like what your unique skill set is and being able to position that in the marketplace so that people can find you and and find your unique gifts and like what you bring to the table is like step number one in being able to make that overall career pivot and personal transformation pivot too. The more that you can become your most authentic aligned self too is really you know it rip has a ripple effect in your life and not only just in your career. >> Yeah. Neat. Okay. So for students who want to work at the intersection of AI which is going to be everywhere. >> Y >> project strategy and organizational change. >> Y >> what kinds of skills and mindset should they be holding on to to thrive in that kind of place? Yeah, I think developing solid communication skills, written, oral ver all the all the things. Um, I think something else that I always remember is I took a consult almost like a consulting 101 class when I was in the high school. Um, Professor Michelle Karst Brown was the professor in that class and I distinctly remember um, in that class she said, "In order to be a top performer, you need to get really comfortable at being effective and working with people that you may not necessarily be colllocated with." And that's for whatever reason that always stuck out with me especially as you know the last three companies I've worked with they're they're a global population. So being being mindful about working with people from other cultures and other countries and being able to collaborate effectively, communicate effectively, um showcasing the work that you're doing because I I can't remember the last time I was physically colllocated with my my direct manager. um and still being able to showcase the work that I'm doing uh showcase the skill set that I have um and being able to really have impact in the organization and you know not again working very closely with people who you may not necessarily be colllocated with. So really getting comfortable with that reality in in today's current workforce and I think again really developing a you know problem solution mindset developing your creativity and again like really turning inward and getting to know yourself and what your unique skill set is because I think moving forward personal branding and being able to showcase who you are online whether that's in you know the a corporate sense like on LinkedIn or just you know I know there's a lot of high schoolers who also are very into entrepreneurship and maybe wanting to work for a startup too. You know, really showcasing that personal brand because I've been able to get a lot of um opportunities from being able to have a public personal brand on online too. >> Yeah, I think that's really helpful. I'm looking forward to hearing what our students say about this podcast. I want to thank you for joining us today. I think we're pretty much out of time. Um, and I hope that you and I can stay in touch. >> Absolutely. >> And I guess that's it. Thank you very much. >> Thank you, Jeeoff. I really appreciate the opportunity and I I hope this podcast episode serves. So, >> thank you.