From Drinking Every Morning to Running 340 Miles

I don't know when the morning drinking started, but that was a standard. And I'm just like, I'm going to die like this. Like, this is how I die. >> He's sober. He's an accomplished runner. He's making a positive impact on the world. Prepare to be inspired because today you're going to hear the experience, strength, and hope of Tommy Runs. >> 17 years old, senior year, I think it was. Ran out of the classroom and then like passed out. All of a sudden, I'm drinking every day for 2 weeks. That's like the most accelerated case of alcoholism I've ever heard. Well, hold on. You The story hasn't [laughter] even The story hasn't even finished yet. The meetings saved my life. There wouldn't be any running if I didn't get sober. I did Osaka Marathon 7 days before Tokyo. Six or seven marathons in a year. The speed project from LA to Las Vegas, 340 mi. How do you continue? How do you make that decision for yourself even though like everything's telling you to stop? So, how do you do that? Um, [music] >> all right, Tommy, before we even get into it, Dan over here dug into the archives and I want to share something with you. >> Hello, Rich Roll podcast. This is Tommy Runs. I think it's important to mention that I'm a young black guy from Detroit area. Went sober, then went vegan, then started running. and sober vegan runner isn't normally synonymous with like the black community. So, it was just so much different for me to be going down this road and I was kind of like on my own with it. You know, the veganism is just not a thing in the black community for real. I mean, it's getting better now for sure. But at the time, like I didn't know anybody that was vegan that's black or that was in my circle or even close to my circle. So, I was just kind of on my own looking for material and information. uh found finding ultra and it just spoke so much like to me. Um I've been in AA and went through the program. Love the program. Programs helped me so much in so many ways that I mean I just I feel like I'm indebted to those people in those rooms in those tables. So hearing that Rich went through the same process in so many different ways from a different side of the world to me. Um but then also felt like all the same feelings and all the same like just troubles, you know? It just made me feel at home reading the book. And then so I started watching the show and it seems like every time that I was trying to make a new like direction in my life, the podcast had a guest on it that was perfect for that moment, perfect for the past, the moments that just passed that I needed to get over or someone that was inspiring me to move on to the next step and kind of reach forward. My journey went from desperate to thriving with running veganism. Now I have a running company. I have my own little personal brand on Instagram. Now I'm working with companies. I've been able to interview and I have a podcast. I've been able to interview some of the people that and have ended up on your show as well to help people just kind of navigate through these things and through these times. I super appreciate how much time you spent on talking about the black community uh and the issues in 2020 that arose and came back to the forefront. So I appreciate you. Tommy runs. Thanks Rich. Namaste. >> So that was 2021. >> Yeah. So like five five six years ago um >> I had forgotten about that and Dan unearthed it and uh it was so fun to listen to that today you know. >> I happily forgot about that. [laughter] >> So how does that make you feel hearing that now like so many years down the line from where you were at that moment? Um, it makes it feel like sitting here feel surreal because I know how much um I know like what role that book and your podcast and the beginning of my sobriety in running. Um, I just I just know how much it all meant to me to like see somebody thriving and working cuz before sobriety, I just didn't know like what life was on the other side of that and like who I would be. So to to get into it and be curious about like self-improvement and all that stuff, um to catch all that, you know, catch your your your content and your story at that time. It was like a big deal for me. So I was really happy to be able to like have a moment to record my thoughts and like send it to you, you know, whether you used it or not. So it's like surreal for me to be sitting here. Um and I guess I'm proud of me then. Like it makes me feel kind of proud. Like it's kind of cringey hearing it, but it's I'm proud that like I'm still finding out like still like trying to find out who I am in this journey but then also like trying to help people along the way. Mhm. I'm very moved listening to that. Uh and knowing you uh now you're paying it forward like this is what we do, you know, this is what we learn in the rooms. Like you hear the experience, strength and hope, you put it into practice in your own life and then you >> turn your head around, you put your head on a swivel and then you pay it forward for somebody else. And this is just an example of that. And I think this journey that you've been on is >> so beautiful. You know, we first met at the running event. How many What year was that? >> 2021. >> 2021. Yeah. So, maybe it was Was that after before? It must have been It had to have been after, right? It was we were introduced uh by our mutual friend Russell Nadal. Uh shout out, Russell. >> Shout out Russell. >> Thanks for making the introduction. And uh I've been able to kind of watch from afar as you really embraced sharing your story uh your story of addiction and redemption uh and your running journey and it just continues to blossom and it feels like you're really hitting your stride right now and you're connecting with people uh you're out at all the races, you're creating content and you're inspiring all kinds of people particularly uh you know communities that are unfamiliar with this world that you are now like very much a part of. >> I appreciate that. >> Yeah. Uh let's do uh a little walk into the past. I want to take it all the way back to you know growing up in in in Detroit or just outside Detroit. >> Yeah. Um all right. So when I was one year I'm playing um >> it's far back. It's you know we're we're going to do what it was like what happened and what it's like now. >> Okay. Okay. Cool. Yeah. So, like I grew up um I was born in New York and um my mother and father separated when I was five. So, then we moved back to Detroit. My whole mom's side of the family is from Detroit. And like my mom was just like single mother kind of like from that point on. My dad passed away when I was uh 8 years old. He died of a of a stroke at 39 years old. >> Um >> and you're 41 now. >> About to be 42 now. To be 42. Yeah. So like the my 39th [clears throat] year was like I was my I was in my head so crazy, you know. >> By the way, you look like you're like 26. It's crazy. You're like ageless. It's insane. >> I heard some like some some saying like black don't crack or whatever. But I grew up without him, you know, and my mom did such a great job of like really hustling and trying to make everything work for me and my sister, you know, like and it was really like a great place to be, you know, to grow up because there was just so much diversity in some of those schools. But at the same time, like I felt lost, you know, like, and I'm not sure if it was, you know, probably because my dad passed and I didn't have like I'm the third, so I have the same name as him, you know, and I just always was like trying to chase this or thought of chasing this person that I didn't really know that like people spoke so highly of like it wasn't like, oh, your dad was cool or whatever. It's like the people that talked about him, it it made me feel um like I could never be that. your kid growing up, confused, uh, not feeling great about yourself, like what was your kind of journey through like junior high school and the early years of high school? Like, who are you hanging out with? Like, what kind of kids? Like, where did you fit in? >> I was not like the cool kids and I wasn't like like >> That's crazy cuz you're so [ __ ] cool. >> It took a long time. I was like, I need some fashion advice, but go ahead. >> You're doing good. You're doing good. I like this. I like this whole look. >> Yeah, I thought a lot about this. I was like, Tommy's coming in. I got to like I got to I got to take this seriously now. >> One thing I wish I could do is grow a beard. And you know, every time you grow >> I saw your video about that. You It'll Well, yeah. I guess Well, I guess you're 40 [laughter] years old. You about to gaslight my beard is going to come in. >> For those that don't know, like you can see it on Tommy's Instagram. He did a video where where he's like, "I wish I could grow a beard." So, you had AI. You had AI lock you up with a beard. And I was like, "Oh, you look like Denzel Washington's son and tenant." Like, it's pretty badass. Yeah. Like it it looked pretty good. Yeah. So you're like I'm going to go to Turkey and get >> hair transplants on my face. >> I'm traumatized at this point now. >> But like you got so much on top of your head. >> Yeah. >> Going on, you know? You get one or the other. I think, >> you know, >> I guess I guess [laughter] I feel like there's people with both, but whatever. You know, um >> we can't have everything. >> No, you really can't. Um but yeah. So like I don't even know. What was the question? >> I don't know either. Uh what you weren't with the cool kids. Who were you? Who who was your hang? >> Yeah. So like I was kind of like I was I was like in the middle like I was trying to I was like kind of watching the cool kids do their cool kid good things you know like cuz we just didn't have like you know the school I grew up in cool meant you had the all the nice stuff you know you had all the you had the iceberg you know sweaters and the whatever jeans um and that was the vibe and and if you didn't have that you were just kind of like had to watch it happen. So, like I was friends with all of them, but I was just like on the outside because I just wasn't that cool, you know, like to them because of like what I wore. >> But I was always everybody knew me, I knew them, and I just felt like I was just kind of meandering through this like, you know, middle school, high school experience. It was like watching what I wanted to be, which like just kind of like tore me up a bit because like I was friends with all of them, but I just wasn't I didn't feel like I was okay or cool enough to come like walk to like the you know the heaters that they used to sit on like in the hallway in the school, you know, and it was it was like strange, but I've always had like a few friends. I've never been the person that had like 20 friends at a time, which is kind of counter like what I was what I wanted. But I wanted all of them to be my friend. But in reality, like I'm the type of person that has like two, three friends that I rock with and hopefully till like death do us part type of vibe. And so like middle school and high school was like a weird thing for me. Like I was I wasn't great at school. I didn't like homework. I could pass any test that you give me. Um just because I was in the class like I could figure it out on the test day. But I never [snorts] really like applied myself like just ever um at that point. And maybe it was cuz I was trying to not look like I was trying hard. >> Mhm. >> But it just left me in this like limbo of like are we trying to do this life or not? And if if I can't be as cool as them, then maybe I don't want to try. Um but I started golfing in like 8th grade or something like that, which was definitely also different at that time, but that was like the Tiger Woods era, so it was okay enough. But that kind of gave me some like purpose through through high school, which was like make sure my grades were good enough to cont to play. And I was like pretty decent, but I was also still pretty short at that point. And so it just didn't allow me to like like flourish in the way that I thought I wanted to. But it kind of gave me purpose to kind of connect those years of making sure I didn't like flunk out of school. Um so >> so no track and field, no cross country, basketball, no running, >> golf. >> Yeah. Like so like all the sports that I played were just all like neighborhood stuff. Like we had a bunch of kids in our neighborhood and we used to play every sport like possible. If somebody watched a movie about football, we're playing football the next day for sure. >> But so I've always been athletic, but I I never I didn't play any like high school um sports except for on the golf team. >> So when does drinking enter the picture? >> Drinking enters um in the hallway. Um 17 years old, senior year I think it was. Um, and my friend brought like these little nips, you know, little bottles. Uh, he like got them from his mom or something like that or stole them from his mom. And he's like, "You want some?" And I'm like, "Sure." So, the first drink I took, it was like all of a sudden I didn't care about what I thought everybody else thought. It was like the moment of like fake clarity, like, "Oh my god, I can I don't care anymore. I can be myself." And then once people start realizing I was drinking cuz then I just went from those couple little nips to like trying to find out like next day like how can I drink more of this stuff? Do you have more? And then I found out ways to try to get some of my own. So I went from not drinking at all really um having a family of in my dad's side of the family is a drinking family. Um or at least that's what my my my view of it um to like all of a sudden I'm drinking every day for 2 weeks >> just like that. just like a light switch got flicked. >> Yeah. Like it was like I mean it was like fast friends like I need tomorrow like or today. I need this like now like cuz if I can walk into school and not like think that everybody's looking at me weird cuz or whatever then that's what I want. And >> did it go [clears throat] immediately to drinking like before going into school like in the morning? >> I was just looking forward to after. >> No no it was in school. Wow. >> It was cuz I needed it in school in my head. Yeah. like right away. Like, so that's like the most accelerated case of alcoholism I think I've ever heard. >> Well, hold on. You the story hasn't even the story hasn't even finished yet. So, like two weeks into the drinking thing. Um, this is the first time I've said this uh on on microphone before. So, this is funny. Um, so the first into two two weeks into drinking, there was a pep rally day and I had gotten whatever liquor that I thought I needed or whatever. And I drank so much cuz like even in that first two weeks, people realized like I had a drink on me. So they would be like wanting the drinks. All the cool kids, oh, let me take a sip. Let me take a sip. So like then all of a sudden I needed to have extra, you know? And then so I'm drinking throughout this whole day, this pep rally day. It's only a half day. By the time like before the pep rally, it was only like two hours into school. Like I wake up and I'm on the floor in the bathroom, passed out with my mom, my principal, and like the security layers on like standing over me cuz I had like ran out of the classroom and then like passed out. And that was two weeks into my alcoholic like journey. >> Wow, that's wild. Like I tell that like cuz it's probably my mom's probably like you did not have to tell that story. But it's just like it just that just shows like how powerful like alcoholism alcoholism is because like in any other scenario that happens to you that fast into this thing you're scared straight. You scared away like I I can't obviously that's not for me. I can't handle it. >> But what I did was like slowly like okay well if I can't drink liquor right away cuz I just can't even smell it cuz it's just too it just sends me off. Maybe I'll just drink some beer. like as I got back into it. So, I like slowly like weaned myself back into it because I just needed to have like that feeling again. >> Uh yeah, a normal person would be appalled and say, "Yeah, no more of that for me." But the reason that it happened is because you're not that guy. Like from the first drink, you're like, >> "Oh, this is the solution to all my problems. This just makes me finally feel comfortable in my own skin." >> And you begin to realize like how uncomfortable you've been all along. as if all the cool kids had this operating manual for life and they're all walking around feeling great about themselves and and now you've discovered this elixir of life that allows you to feel the way that you assume everyone else feels all the time. >> Yeah, it was a cure to to like the pain that I felt like I was going through every single day. >> And that's the thing that gets missed, I think, too often in discussions around alcoholism and recovery. Like it works. >> That's why you're doing it. you know, it is a solution to a problem. It's not the problem. >> The problem is, you know, you feeling uncomfortable in your own skin and why that's the case, right? And until you heal that or find a solution for that, >> uh, you're going to continue to drink. >> Yeah. >> This episode is brought to you by Whoop. To celebrate turning 60 in a handful of weeks, I am planning to guide a disabled athlete at the New York City Marathon, which is quite the leap from where I was not long ago, slowly recovering from spinal fusion surgery. And to be ready, I have plenty of hard work ahead of me, but I need to do it smartly. meaning I need to check my ego to prevent it from writing a check that my still very much healing spine simply can't cash and this is where Whoop becomes my essential training partner preventing me from overstrain because I always want to do too much [music] so I best absorb the training load that I'm putting my body through and Whoop does this by providing feedback on how my sleep and my recovery are trending against the [music] strain. So each day's decision gets made from evidence instead of some old habit or from insecurity or anxiety. Push today, back off tomorrow, [music] trust the process. 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But you're like you you make a mental note of it. >> I knew I was an alcoholic >> and like you don't want to be the guy who's passing out. So you realize like I got to reel it in, but I got to find a way to be able to continue doing this. >> Yeah. Like you have to it's like okay lesson learned instead of you know lesson learned. Here's how I can do this better, you know, and be I don't want to be that extreme cuz that's that's abnormal as well. I'm not going to fit into the cool kids if I'm laying in the bathroom floor. But how do I like how do I weave this into my life in a way that can allow me to be functional? And I think that like the functional alcoholic, the term that's the most dangerous term that is thrown around like in society to me because that's the issue cuz you if you're if you have a job, if you're moving forward, if you're going to school, doing the things, you're you're not on the side of the road, you know, drunk all the all day. You feel like you're normal in some way. And then you it just lets you just pass time and continue to just like make these decisions or tear your life apart or tear your health apart as you >> Well, the word functional is the wrong word. Like you're operating dysfunctionally. Yeah. >> But you're not so dysfunctional uh that anybody is going to kind of force you to stop doing what you're doing. You can get by, but you're operating at like such a suboptimal level in >> think you're crushing it. You really think you're >> Well, that's part of the denial and the delusion. Like nobody knows what I'm doing. they don't, you know, like I'm getting away with this and and then as it accelerates, then you have to start with all the lying and the hiding and all of that. But what was what was the conversation with moms that night after passing out on in in the bathroom in high school? She [snorts] couldn't have been too happy. >> Yeah. So, I don't even know. I think um you know, this was in the this was in like early 2000s, so like um parents putting their hands on on kids was kind of was okay at that point. And I was like 17, so I think she like punched me when I got in the car. Uh like maybe in the chest or something like that. But like she never like she wasn't a physical person like that. >> Um but I just knew like really her the look she's always she has this like look that she's like a lot of like a lot of parents have >> but it's this look that just like tore me up and I I just felt so embarrassed and like ashamed and felt like I like I um like disrespected her and and disrespected my family. And the thing was like I had a one thing I remember about that day is like I had a job at that point and I had I was supposed to go to work like later on that day and she made me go to work but she wasn't going to take me. So like I had to call my grandma to come take me to work. She knew the whole situation and she's like this if you like I hope you get to meet her. Um, she's like this really like, you know, quiet, so kind. Everybody, if you meet her, everybody's just going to be like, they're just, everybody loves my grandma, just automatic cuz she's just so kind, supportive, and attentive. And you feel like she's like looking into your soul as you talk to her, as she talks to you. And so she got in she I got in her car quiet cuz I'm trying to figure like how to not be drunk right now. And we're driving to this this place out in like the suburbs. And she like right before I got out, she like looked at me and like the first word she said was or the only word she said in the car was like don't let them see you like this. Like to me that meant just it was just so much cuz I was just walking into this building with you know at that time it was a it was a golf store and it was just it's just going to be all white people and I'm just looking a mess. So she's like just pull yourself together >> and don't ever let anybody see you like this. And I wish I took like the meaning of that like right away and and and maybe just went a different direction. But, you know, the the addiction won in that in that case. But that's what I remember from that day. And once I finally like came to terms with like my sobriety and started going on that walk, I knew more like what she what she meant. And um and I kind of tried to chase that that like redemption of that of that moment, you know, like throughout my life. Now >> with that rapid of an acceleration uh it seems like uh it would be difficult for you to sustain any kind of relationship with alcohol for very long. But >> that was what year? 2000 >> 2002. >> 2002. You get sober in 2017. So you got a good 15-year run after that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Good is is a is a strange word. [laughter] >> Yeah. from so from that point like I got back into it just a little more tame I thought I was being and like I said I eased back into it >> and I just knew my I kind of learned my limit you know I thought I learned my limit at that point like I'll never I'll never be that drunk in public ever again I'll never drink that much in a short period of time ever again like I set these parameters without like without knowing it and it just allowed me to get to the point of you know okay I need to go home and I would just go home. >> And you were able to do that. >> I was able to do that, but then a lot of but that also led me to like this really isolated life. You know, you had family and stuff like that, but I still was like I would just be at home drinking. I wasn't I wasn't the type of drunk or drinker that like would want to be outside and at the bars and stuff like that. Like that. >> Yeah. You're taking your grandma's advice. It doesn't You're you're not interpreting it as stop drinking. Just don't let anyone see you doing it. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, like and if you're in my house Yeah. It is what it is. like, you know, so that was my my my thing was just like kind of hide hiding it as much as I could and then just never being in a car. >> Um, you know, absolutely just trashed or just I just didn't want to be around people like I was very alone to myself like drunk and that's it was just part of I wake up every morning and finish whatever I didn't you know the day before. >> So the morning drinking started pretty early. Um, I don't know when the morning drinking started, but it was, you know, definitely around like 200 like 12 or 13. Like that was standard, you know, and that was and I I just pulled from so many different like dumb inspirations. Like it was a dude that I I remember being around like cuz after I graduated, I went down this whole like street like rabbit hole where I just knew that I wanted to be out there or outside like that. And as a dude I knew that was like he would drink every day before he'd go out, you know, into the world because I mean he was living a much different lifestyle, but he just felt like he needed to have like a edge when he went outside. >> And I'm like, well, I'm going to work inside, but I could I could still use this like little edge. So, I was just using all these little random moments to validate like how I was like moving through my life. And but I just, you know, like they said, like there's like three phases of it. It's fun in the beginning. In the middle, you're just kind of maintaining. And at the end, it's just like absolute torture cuz you there's no chance of of stopping this this like train that's just is constantly rolling. And like every time that I would try to like stop, I would try to stop for like a week and I couldn't make it a day. And so every time I'd wake up in the morning and drink or every time that I would fail on these like little small little stances of of sobriety or like dry Januaries, it just felt like every day I like I was losing. I'd wake up every day and take a L. And it felt so out of control. Not because I was just like walking around the street stumbling around, but I was just had no control over my next like 20 minutes. Every time that happens, it's it's like another deposit in the uh hopelessness, desperation, uh piggy bank. >> Desp desperation was was like if I could have bought like two weeks of sobriety with every dollar I had at any point, I would have just to say that I did it. Um >> did you know anybody that was sober or that didn't drink or you were just it was like lower companion situation? No, I mean [clears throat] I I knew people that drank normal like regular like people that would drink once every week or something like that and they could control it. When you leave somebody's house like you'd buy a bottle and you take it to the house to have a party and you come back 2 weeks later and that same bottle is there. Like those people drove me crazy. Like how did you not drink this while I was gone? >> But no adult in your like orbit who was like yeah I'm an AA person. No one's checking in on you like that. Like cuz even the people like in my people in my family like um on my mom's side that didn't drink, >> they drank every now and then, but it was no like no intentional, you know, I go to AA was was a movie thing for me. >> Um that's the only time I saw it and it was never really depicted in like this light of like you should check it out. >> Yeah. >> That wasn't an option. >> Yeah. >> For me. >> You worked for many years uh at a auto transport company, right? Like now you're full-time running influencer racer dude. Uh but you had a pretty good job for a long time. Like you kind of worked your way up the ranks to like a VP level I guess, right? >> Is that a job that you started like right out of high school or or you know like how did you find your way there? And then how are you uh kind of uh getting promoted at your job while balancing this secret life as a morning drinking alcoholic? [laughter] >> Functional bro. Oh, no. It was >> because they they must have on some level. There's no way you had to just smell bad. >> I asked him after I got sober. I was like, "Did you?" And he was like, "No, >> I didn't." >> Wow. >> And I mean, he had to be lying to make me feel good. I don't know. But so I started working for them in 2007. So like from the like graduating high school to 2007, there was like this like little area where I like I jumped into like I guess like street life um in a way. And I I found myself going directly in this path of of like self like actual self-destruction and like gambling like my freedom >> and life like every day. >> What are we talking about here? Like selling drugs or >> um so I knew people that I knew people that did and I was around people that did. Um, and like I dabbled in it here and there, but I was much more like the younger dude around like people that were like 10, 15 years older than me and they were just doing really well. And I met them through through a girl that I knew at the time. And next thing you know, like cuz I I I I grew up glorifying like that, I guess, the cars and the money and stuff like that, but it was really more of like that masculine like I have it figured out energy and and that confident energy that I felt like I didn't have. Like, so I watch all these movies and it's like, yo, that's the guy that I that I think I should be like, you know, I should be like running this or having, you know, money and doing what I want to do. And so like all of a sudden to like run into some people like this, they were they were everything that I thought I wanted to be, which was, you know, confident, took care of their families, um, and people knew them, you know, and in hindsight, it was a very dangerous like decision for me to be like, "All right, what y'all need? And let's let's work and let me help and let me, you know, make some money on the side here, do all these like it was it was a um a big risk, but like I actually like thank God that that I met them and not like a different set of people >> cuz it wasn't like I guess hand to hand like it wasn't like I was like standing on a corner somewhere. Yeah. Like it was >> much different than that and a little safer but probably higher. the amount of years that potentially you could get if you got caught doing something would probably be a little a little crazy. But it was I'm just happy I met them because they they kept they were kept me farther away far away from that daily energy as possible. But then they also like strangely had even though I looked at the drug dealing part of it as yo this is who I want to be because they're drug dealers. It was really who I wanted to be because they were a lot of these guys are people that are just trying to take care of their families. >> Yeah. They look like they're thriving. >> They look like they're thriving. But then a lot at least in the generation that I grew up in and looked up to, they had morals and like and in and to a to an extent and had like a code amongst themselves like how they would carry themselves in the world and how they would take care of them their families like you know this is all a roundabout story to get to like 2007 but when my my kids mom had our daughter uh in 2007 in 2007 I needed to get I needed to make a as I couldn't be in the house I was in and have her in the house with a baby. So, we moved to this other house. And I didn't see a dad directly with with children until I saw these guys handle their kids. And so, like for 2 3 years, I I acted I treated my daughter how they treated their their little girls. And I would say the same things to my daughter eventually that they were saying to their kids. and they like taught me how to be like a a a father and like a man to a to kids and a man to a woman, you know, and so it's like a blessing, but it was it's a weird it's a dark moment in my life, but it was also this blessing that I ran to these people in general. But so like to fast forward to 2007. But before you go there, I mean, I think the point that stands out to me in in what you just shared is that these things are not black and white. It's in the same way that we were characterizing alcohol as a solution to a problem. >> You know, you could look at this community of people and now in retrospect realize like that was a bad decision. That was a potentially dangerous environment for me. I'm grateful I got out of it. >> But they were fulfilling a need. like they were solving a problem for you by being a mentor in a certain kind of way that you needed and lacked and didn't have in your in your upbringing. >> Yeah. And I'm like super thankful for, you know, to them and for them. I'm not really in communication with them that much at all anymore, but like they they kind of gave me the blueprint of like how I can move in the world and how I can thrive in the world. you know, all you just got to replace, you know, you know, from drugs to something different, but like how do you carry yourself through these business interactions and how do you u like stand tall, I guess, on your on your what you believe is true and right and how do you move forward with that like with some sense of confidence and build. >> Um, so like that was just a that was definitely a blessing. >> So, you have kids all of a sudden. >> Yeah. >> How old are you? >> I'm 40 Well, at the time 23 23 >> 23 in 2007. So I imagine that's a that that was a catalyst or kind of a recognition like hey like I gotta like figure my [ __ ] out a little bit. >> Yeah. So like I'm So I started say like I'm I'm going to get a job now cuz like I can't I don't want to be like the movies just doing one more little thing for a couple dollars here and then all of a sudden like you're in prison. So I'm like all right let me get a job. And I was I I said no to using like some of the cars that I had access to before cuz I just didn't want to have to be pulled in that direction. So I'm like, "No, I'm good." Or, you know, and I was paying for a cab just to get back and forth to this church that I got a job at. There was a church that my mom like like kind of grew me up in and like for my like my high school years. And so I'm working at this church and also sort of trying to play that lifestyle of trying to make money every now and then if I could. But it was just like this hard thing to go from like having everything that I needed and making really good money to all of a sudden trying to raise another person and figure like this like life out. And it was just my mom came to visit and cuz she was living in Massachusetts at the time and she came to visit for a few days and I was just trying to hold it together like as much as I could and act like this like $20 that I had was like enough. and she like saw it, didn't say too much. Her and my grandma came picked me up and took me to like Target or something like that to buy a bunch of stuff and they're like, "Oh, we just want to help you with like a home a homewarming type of gift." And she called me like a month or so after visiting and was like, "I see that you're I don't know what you're doing or what you were doing. I see that you're trying to make a difference or a change in your life and you're trying to take care of this little girl. Um, if you want, you could come to Massachusetts, live with me, and you know, you can bring, you know, you can bring Iris, her mom, you can bring her, too, and you guys can start over if you want. >> And she's like, it's different. It's Newport, Massachusetts. It's like as white as you can get, >> you know? And I'm like, uh, let me talk to her and see what she said. And she said yes. Like within like first conversation, she's like, yeah, sure. Let's get out of here. cuz she everybody saw me like that cared I guess about me saw me trying to figure this thing out and not like resort to what I thought was the easiest way to make money at that mo at that point. And so I moved um my mom the guy my mom was like really close friends with came picked me up on September 10th 2007 and we drove from you know through Canada um to go to Massachusetts. All my stuff was in the back of a pickup truck and we just like started this life over and I started working at like a a doughnut shop for seven days and then the eighth day I started at at Lowe's like home the home improvement. >> Yeah. worked there for two months. And while I was working there, I got hired at Reload Trains, Auto Relocation for um at the entry level position. Like I was the money I was making was like kind of laughable like but it was definitely my first desk job and I started at the lowest position you could get and just over those years I I just kept kind of climbing and kind of instilling like what I saw my mom and my sister and my grandma do in their lives which is just like keep going forward and figure it out. So, how many years were you in Massachusetts before you moved back to Detroit? >> I moved back to Detroit, I think, in like 2014. >> Oh, wow. So, so I was there for like seven years. >> Yeah. So, like six or seven years, I was out there. And in that, in that time, like I I I stopped working for Reload Trans in 2025. And in that time, I went from the person that just talks on the phone about the relocation that ads puts it together to sales to creating a position for like director of sales and then just kept working my way up because I was just making a name for myself in the industry and really like helping the company grow really quickly. But all that time I was like my my addiction was just there >> and [clears throat] it was just increasing. And then I was drinking during the job. I was had like liquor in Red Bull bottles, you know, just thinking that the smell of the Red Bull would like mask the liquor. But I it was keeping me together, I thought. And um couple like scares like health-wise and just like decision- making, but somehow like I put this like string of of years together where I was really thriving. The first time I saw an R2 in person, I got it immediately. This is the Rivian that a lot of people are going to be able to enjoy. Driving it with R.J. only confirm that. >> All right. 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I just don't really know like how much of that life she remembers. But I'm so happy that you know that I've been I've been sober going on I've been sober over 9 years now. And it's um I I can't I'm so thankful. like I don't even necessarily have the words of like how happy and um grateful I am to be in their lives and be in and be a point of inspiration in a way or I don't hide you know the fact that I used to be an alcoholic or I am an alcoholic when we first met correct me if I'm not me remembering this properly but uh when we were talking you you were still sort struggling with whether to share your addiction and sobriety story. I mean, obviously you were much earlier in sobriety at that point. >> Yeah. >> And now this is, you know, it's it's sort of running first in terms of like how you communicate publicly, but um the recovery piece has has become much more prominent in how [clears throat] you think about, you know, how you share your life. Yeah, it was definitely like I didn't being in corporate for so long and trying to build yourself, your your personal brand, but then also you're working you're representing a company like I didn't ever I never talked about sobriety. Even after I got sober, I kind of was really quiet about it cuz I you don't want to you don't want to negatively impact a company, but I had to like come to terms with this is my per this is my personal brand. This is my message. this is like could potentially be my purpose in the world is to share some of the things that I've learned and I got on a podcast uh once or it was like a live with believe in the run and he it was like 30 minute little spy he asked me some questions and there was a moment that I could have talked about sobriety but and he like teed it up perfect for it and then I like pivoted and went back to running and I got off that that 30 minute live and felt so terrible like like I missed an opportunity potentially help one person maybe. And I'm like, okay, if I'm going to do this whole Tommy Runs thing and I ever get an [clears throat] opportunity to be on a podcast again, if someone ask me that m about that moment or there's a chance that I could talk about sobriety, I'm doing it. And I think that was when we met, it was like kind of right before that all that happened. And you know, knowing that there's a you too out in the world that leans heavily into that story gives like other people moments of um clarity in a sense or I can do that too. And so in that moment I'm like probably referenced to you and other people in my brain like they're doing just fine and there's no one like shaming them for being you know attempting to be sober and stay sober and help other people. So that's when I leaned in like I'm telling this story because when I got sober in the first day, the first meeting I went to, I went into a room with, you know, it was in a nice area. There was nice cars outside. Walked inside, everybody, you know, the average age was probably like 45 to 50. Um, everybody, no one looks like me in the room. And I walked in because a therapist told me that I should maybe check it out. And there's a guy that was going to be waiting on me to get there. So I'm like, "Okay." And I walked in, I'm like, "These people will there's no chance that they understand what I've been through." >> Yeah. >> And then I heard >> like a Gross Point crowd. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> I told you this, you know, I was born in Gross Point. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Do you remember? We I think we talked about >> it was actually West Bloomfield. >> So basically, same thing. Maybe even a little definitely a little more. And it was like a a Bentley outside and like a like a Porsche or something like that. Okay, this is this isn't going to work. But then I'm sitting there and all these people are telling their story and they literally in some way said how they in their stories they they shared how I felt you know about myself addiction um and all that. So I'm like this is these are my people almost immediately before I even said a word. I'm like these are my people and I need to be here. If I can do that randomly on a podcast or in some version of like a caption of a post that I share about some shoes and I mention something else that strikes like that chord of like, oh, I do I resonate with this and if he can do it, I can do it, too. And that's been my theme for like everything that I've done, whether it's, you know, these big races or just going after marathons. It's not necessarily like I want to inspire you to do this, but I want to inspire you to do some form of whatever that next step is for you. Um, so that that was really what I was grappling with was like, can I share this and is it helpful? And then I had to think about like my life was saved in those rooms because people shared their stories authentically. They didn't cut corners. They didn't try to preach to the thing. They literally just shared some of their most vulnerable and scary and kind of like laughable stories. Um, but it was what I needed to to know that like it's not just me, you know? >> Yeah. Walk me up to your moment of clarity. Like how did you uh wake up one day and decide this is the day that I'm gonna get sober. I'm gonna go to my first AA meeting. The day was uh January 11th, 2017. Um that was the the the last drink I had was January 10th. And leading up to that was like just a couple years of just trying so hard to figure out how to string together a week or a month or whatever. And my friend Donovan, uh like best friend, brother, met him when I was like 12. And we just were like inseparable for so long. Rest in peace. He passed in um March in March 2025. And so he was he definitely was alcoholic as well. He didn't never say he was, but whenever like I would say that I wanted to stop drinking for a little bit, he would be like, "All right, cool. I'll do it with you." And it was strange how quick he would I knew he needed it too, but he was doing it for me, you know, in his head. But it like it let me keep trying to do it. So every time I would try and fail, like I would tell him the truth and he'd be like, "Oh, you good, bro?" Like, you know, you got a good job. Like we kind of played it off and kind of roll forward. But every time I would try to get worse and worse to the point where like my mom text me one day in January 2007, like right after the new year, uh he and I were going to do this dry January thing. And I got to like the third or fourth day into January, went over his house. Um, our wives at the time were, you know, were drinking and I I made it through the whole night, no drinking. And I woke up at like 2:30 in the morning. Our my kids are downstairs with his kids. Everybody's sleeping in the house at 2:30 in the morning. And I like went into the kitchen, found the bottle of vodka, and just started drinking in the middle of the night. No one's awake. There's no reason why I would need to do this, you know, in my in rational mind. and then just got drunk and >> fell asleep. And that was the silliest and dumbest and saddest that I've ever been. [laughter] You know, it's like >> at least like I could have caved like people were awake. >> Sleep. You just woke up in the middle. Yeah. Like you couldn't even sleep through the night. There's everyone's there's nothing going on. >> There's no benefit to me being tipsy, drunk, or anything alike at that point. There's no awkward social situation that you have to show up for. Yeah, I [snorts] just had to [laughter] I just had to stay asleep. I could have just went back to sleep, but I'm like, let me go have this drink and and then but that was just I woke up the next day and the days after that I would just obviously right back to it, but I just felt that was the worst that I felt. And I'm just like I'm going to die like this. Like this is how I die is in a car or you know I'm already I'm I'm 30 whatever 32 and it's going to be blood pressure cuz my blood pressure was high blood pressure. >> Yeah. Like I was in the hospital when I was 30 or something like that 29 30 with like 82 over like 120 something. >> Wow. Like at this point from then on I could feel whenever my blood pressure would get high enough like my hand was starting to go numb like so I was playing with like dying just like my dad did you know? >> Yeah. You have this you know father figure looming over you died so young. >> If I can't be better than him I might as well like die sooner than ridiculous I guess. But >> so like that's but that's where I was like that's like this is just how it ends you know. There's no I I cannot beat this. It will not happen. And it just is what it is. And my mom like texts me one day. She's like, "How's my son?" And this was like a day or so after that episode. And I'm like, normally I just go, "I'm doing great. Kids are good." Blah blah blah. I just told her, "Not good." And simply like just just that quick. Not good. Didn't divulge what what was happening. And she said, "You know, you should call you should reach out to EAP. You have insurance employee assistance program. Reach out. They'll maybe help you." And so I did what she told me to do >> and they called me like the next day and was like, "Hey, you know, they do like a little screening thing to figure out what type of therapist maybe you need." I complained about family stuff and blamed everything. The reason why I was calling is not my fault. It's not addiction. It's just, you know, whatever. But she asked me how many how many times I drink a day or a week. And I'm like, it really just depends on like what it is. If it's beer, it's a ton. If it's liquor, it's 7 8 or whatever until I can't anymore. And I wake up in the morning, I drink. And she was like, "Okay, no, no." >> So, you were honest in that answer. >> So, like I told her the truth. I told this lady on the phone the truth. And then they like, "Okay, well, we have an appointment for you on January 11th uh with this person and she's a family therapist." And so I'm like, "Okay, cool. January 10th, I drank at like 10:30 p.m. Like, I can't go there smelling like liquor, so let's stop here." Um, so I walked in and she starts talking to me. started complaining about family and this and that, works hard. She was like, "Well, how much do you drink, you know, or do you do do you think I have a drinking problem?" I'm like, "Yeah, I mean, I drink a bit." And she asked me, "How much?" And I told her the truth again. She was like, "Okay, well, the cool thing is I'm a family therapist, but I'm also um I'm I'm actually mainly a substance abuse counselor." And I'm like, I almost walked out like, "You guys tricked me." You know what I'm saying? But uh they she she said, "Well, you you definitely have a drinking problem. I'm not going to call you an alcoholic, but you you have you have an issue. There's a meeting that happens on Sunday. I know a guy that goes there. He's a nice guy. He's around your age. You should go with him. Just meet him there. And then so I walked out of that office and was like, "All right, well, how about I just don't drink from Wednesday to to Sunday." And at that point, that's like four or five days. And that is a stretch for me. >> Mhm. But somehow because of I said like those three truths, I was able to like the weight of the addiction was lifted enough for me to to hold and not drink from January 11th to that till when I walked in that meeting. >> Right. Also, you're a man of great integrity and when you say I'm going to I'm going to not drink for these four days, like you're a man of your word. >> Yeah. Yeah. I've been able to Yeah. Yeah. I didn't tell her that. I just said that in my head like I'm just not going to drink. But it's that it's that thing that superiority complex like I am, you know, like I'm stronger than anyone while also feeling like I'm the worst person in the world. Like you're simultaneously like inhabiting those >> two ideas about yourself. >> I don't know. Like I don't know if I ever I always thought that I could be really good at something. Um but I just didn't think that I was I had what it took to reach like my potential, >> you know? Like that's just it. Like I knew that I was like smart enough. I knew I could talk enough. I knew I could make friends with people that I needed to and talk to whoever. My mom, you know, my family raised me so well. >> Who else could drink as much as you were drinking and still move up the corporate ladder at your job and be a parent, you know, like you know, you're like, I'm I'm like crushing it. I mean low key like low-key renaissance man type stuff, you know, but you know like I think that I just never looked at myself well ever, you know, like even during that time working for that one company for 17 years. I was just telling somebody the other day like I had job offers that were easily anybody else would have taken. But I can't take that job because you're going to you'll find out they'll find out. >> You'll find out cuz if whatever whatever reason this company they don't they're not paying attention to me like that. you're going to find out that I'm an [ __ ] or that I'm like just drinking my life. >> I'll stay here cuz they're sort of blind to what I'm doing and I have a setup where >> they need me. They like, you know, like >> and so like I just didn't have the confidence at that time to like make a decision that would put me at risk of being like found out, you know, >> right? But leading up to that like moment of of like walking into her office was just I think it's it's just the truth part, you know, like I li you we lie about our our alcoholism and the things we're doing so much. It's just it's like second nature or first nature almost just to hide lie. Um you know, how many drinks have you had? Two. you know, but it's like I finally was able to tell the truth about it to someone outside of Donovan, you know, and people that I probably wouldn't have told the truth to and it just it like loosened its like grip enough for me to see some space in between, you know, myself in this drink. >> Um, and I'm I just like thank God for like for whatever happened like I was able to tell the truth at that moment. >> Yeah. So, you go to that first meeting, you hear a version of your story, something clicks in you. How do you go from being a guy who can't go three or four days without drinking to not drinking for coming up on 10 years at this point from that January 11th, 2017 day? >> Um, you know, the the meetings saved my life. not just like that day, but having um a place to go that felt like home more than home did allowed me to just continue to work through some of those those worries and issues that I thought were just so important to me. You know, like when you go into a meeting and you complain about something or you're worried about something like somebody that has like 15, 20 years says like the most simple stupid statement >> Mhm. That just means like, oh, relax. That's one day at a time. I'm worried about three months away because I got to go to a conference. >> One of the endless apherisms that are so annoying. >> It's like, so it's like, bro, shut up. [laughter] >> Like, okay, though. I get it. you know, it's but it was it's all the things that I like I learned in the program and as I worked through those like first few years of, you know, being able to bounce ideas or thoughts or worries off of people who weren't judging me but like saw themselves or heard themselves in what I was worried about and responded in a way that was much more passionate and um like caring than someone who doesn't understand who can have a drink and not drink for 3 4 is um people like that don't understand like what your how silly some of the things you worry about but how large those issues can become if you if they go unchecked. >> And so being in the program those first few years was so I needed every I needed that more than anything. And I also think that I'm blessed to to not have the urge to drink. And it kind of happened really fast. Like once I like fully made that decision that this is where I belong. I just haven't had that, oh, I think I need a drink or oh, I should drink right now. I've just I just haven't had that. And I know people struggle with that like every day. >> So, I know that I'm blessed and kind of rare in that in that aspect, but I think it was just because of how for me how much I I really wanted to be here, but just couldn't see a way. and they and they showed me like the way to it >> and I just accepted it like wholeheartedly. And yeah, I probably still act like an alcoholic and process things in a weird way that only we would. But at the same time, it just doesn't lead me back to to like wanting a drink cuz I know I know and I also know that I fully believe that I'll die if I go back to drinking. What do you think the difference is between someone like yourself who can walk into a meeting desperate, still not sure, not only like am I going to be able to be a sober person, but do I even really want this? Uh and yet building this foundation of sobriety and the person who has walked some version of your path who goes in and feels similarly about themselves and their relationship with alcohol and like can't get it or is in and out all the time. Is it something more than deeply wanting it? Is it a function of willingness? like what is the differentiator between the person who really kind of locks in and like does the work and builds a new life and the person who just continues to struggle. >> I think I mean the first thing that comes to mind to me is like ego. I mean, we have we have this like identity built in like who we think we are and and I mean the reason why it takes people to get to rock bottom, whatever your rock bottom is to make that change is cuz you're still attached to that ego or to that identity. Um, and anything that rubs against that, you're going to have some, you know, unwillingness to to shift or make the change. So, like for me, my rock bottom doesn't look maybe not nearly as bad as someone else's, but I was just ready to change and like I wanted it, you know, bad enough to be willing to do all the things and say all the silly statements. But I think it really just comes down to maybe not wanting it, but just being open and ready to take the suggestions of this book or these people that are ahead of you in this journey. Um, and also just like surrendering to the fact that you really don't have any control like whether it's over alcohol or drugs or whatever, you just don't have it in life in general. We just have no only control we have is just how we respond to these to like to these moments and to these opportunities or happenings in life. And as if you can just get to the point where you just are okay with like that, then that's the building blocks for like whatever is next. >> Yeah. >> But you just see so many people kind of holding on to their identity or who they think they should be. They want to be sober, >> but there's also this this thing that's holding them too close to what they built during their addiction. They haven't fully surrendered to this idea of powerlessness. Yeah. And the idea that this has to come before everything else and there's no quick fix. Like >> you really have to just be like, "All right, like what's it going to be?" You know, um, >> you know, Odysius uh, on the raft, you know, [laughter] >> leaving Calypso behind in full surrender and letting the the gods direct the current, you know, and hopefully I'll end up home. But it's really out of my hands. >> So silly. I almost like cried in that movie when he did that cuz it's like I mean that's how it feels. It's just like you >> he's going through the 12 steps in that movie. He talked about this with Ryan Holidayiday. I love that podcast. Yeah. >> Thank you [laughter] for that. >> And it's like finally, you know, like now he's going to get it. Like the only way he's going to solve this problem is by by like relinquishing the idea that he can solve it himself. >> Yeah. You just have Yeah. You just have to have to let go. And if that's what it feels like, it feels like you're you're just laying. It's not like they sent them in a little boat with a paddle. It's literally just lay on these couple pieces of wood and just float and see what happens. And that's what it feels like. Even though we were like probably on a makeshift boat with like 20 holes in the bottom, going to sink anyway. We're like holding on to this thought of we should be able to this should be different. It should be a plan. It should be something more, you know, amazing to think about like this better journey. But we really just have to like let go and follow the like the tenants of the program, but then also just relinquishing all control of what we thought we were controlling. Cuz that's one thing like for for me at least, alcoholism seems like this wild thing that you're just so out of control, but there's this weird false sense of control within ourselves. We're like, we know what we're doing. We've crafted this master plan of how to be drunk around everybody. No one knows. It's this false sense of of security that we still try to hold on to as we're like trying to step away from it. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Well said. >> When that was my goal is to get you to say well said at least once. >> I got Well, all right. Goal goal unlocked. Okay. >> Um I have some goals also. I'll show them. Okay. At the end. We're not there yet. When is running enter the picture? Uh so running um enters in 2018. Um so I was like after getting sober like two weeks into um that walk I could I could like start to see myself in the mirror like physically. I'm like oh I look like crap like you with my shirt off in the mirror like this is I feel terrible still. I look bad. Um so let me start going to the gym. So I was going to the gym six or seven days a week. I just started going and I got real buff. Like I was really into it and my name I forgot what my name was before but uh my name was Tommy Guns on Instagram after like I started getting like real buff. >> You had a you had some other uh stage name on Instagram before that. >> I mean it was like >> I can't remember what it is. >> No, I think it was like something about cooking or something like cuz I liked cooking cuz I could drink while I was cooking and I enjoyed that that process. All right. So now you're >> So now I'm Tommy Guns. Tommy guns. I'm in the gym like heavy. Um like I was actually >> Guns with a Z. Of course. >> Guns with a Z. Yeah. Yeah. We we stayed branded right across. >> Um but then so like I was still working at the job. I had a client that was based in Chicago and he's like in 2018 he's like, "Hey, um you're fit. We run the Chicago Rock and Roll Half Marathon every year as my for my company. who raised a bunch of money for a charity called Move for Hunger. Um, and I was familiar very familiar with the charity. Like I met the guy who owns or who started that the same like my first business trip. He was on that first business. It was his first business trip. So, shout out to Adam. Um, but so like I'm like, "Yeah, bet. I'll raise some money for the charity." So, I raised some money and but I'm training for this race training. you know, it was like six weeks of just like kind of like I jumped into a couple like 5ks to see what I could do. And then I ran this this this race in Chicago and at that point it was like a little over a year of sobriety. But somehow like getting on the line with all these people that I don't know, like thousands, it was a big race. Thousands of people I don't know running through the streets of Chicago all with like the same similar goal. Some people are going to get there faster or slower, but like we all did it together. And it felt like this number one felt a lot like the rooms to me somehow in in sobriety. And then secondly, no disrespect to my kids or whatever, but it was probably one of the most proud moments that I've had in my life to be somewhere so far from like from what I thought was possible like growing up. I didn't grow up seeing people like run half marathons for fun. Like my mom did like a couple charity walks and stuff like that for like breast cancer like back when I was a kid, but I didn't know anybody that would run 13.1 miles in a row on purpose and pay for it and go do it. So it was like I'm so proud of myself at this point. And so as soon as I got over like a metatarsal fracture that I had like right before the race, I ran anyway cuz that's what we do. >> Yeah. >> Um I'm like I like this running thing. Let me just keep doing it. So then I would just run a little bit more and started training and started signing up for different stuff. And then eventually my cousin was like, "Uh, you're not man. You ain't Tommy Guns anymore. You're Tommy Runs." And I'm I looked on Instagram really quick, put the R in to see if it was available and it was so I took it. >> And that's all she wrote. >> That's all she wrote. Now we're sitting. >> You were off to the races. Uh, literally from that point forward, >> um, you've gone on to I mean, how many marathons have you run at this point? >> 17. >> 17. You did all six majors. >> Mhm. Did you do that in a single year? >> I did run all six majors at the time when there was only six still. There was the last year there was six. 2024 I did all six in a year. I did Osaka marathon seven days before Tokyo, which is the first marathon major of the year. So I did all six in one year, but I had done multiple multiple of them many different times. But I got my six-star medal thing in uh London that year. >> Yeah. And your marathon PR is like 246 or something. >> 2469. Yeah. >> 246. So, you're quick. You've matured into like an excellent marathon runner. Now, you're applying your trade on the trails. >> Yeah. >> You've done the Havalina 100. Uh you did 100k race also. You uh you did the speed project and you recently did Western States. >> Western States 100. Yep. >> Did I get all of them? >> Yes, you did. >> Yeah. So, uh you stepped into this whole other world. along the way at some point uh in your running journey, you decided to be kind of a content creator in this space. >> I'm interested in how that evolved like this thing that was a very personal kind of self-discovery >> um relationship with running now becomes like a you know kind of a public relationship that you're having and now it's like a business. you know, it's like you're a running influencer, quote unquote, >> in the best kind of interpretation of that phrase that has a kind of porative connotation. >> When I first started running, I was already making like content and stuff like on LinkedIn for work. So, I was very familiar with like just making content, editing videos. So, when I started running, I started posting more. And the cool part about the sobriety thing, going to the gym, and then the running was I would share like just what I did. and some of the things I was doing was so far outside of what people that I knew would see on a day-to-day basis. People responded to it really well. Just like the it wasn't about influencer cuz there was no influencers to me at like 2019 or 18. But the people who give me like little kudos here and there saying like, "Oh, wow. This is really cool. Keep going. Oh, wow. You're a year sober. Great. Keep going." That's what I needed. I needed like some of that reinforcement that that what I did mattered not only to me, but it potentially mattered to other people. And I just needed that nudge to keep pushing. So, like as I that that journey went on, I started just getting more, you know, just a little better at making content and seeing people on YouTube do cool videos. So, I tried to make my own little cool videos on on Instagram. Um, but then after like during 2020, um, obviously I mean I was already working from home cuz I had already moved back here, I mean back to Michigan. So, um, I was, you know, I just had a little bit more time because everything slowed down, work slowed down. So then I started, you know, really kind of leaning in and making some content. And then one thing that I felt I felt like that was very prevalent in that moment for me is like after like co happened. So obviously like life is strange and weird and kind of scary because you're like who what's next? But then Ahmad Arbory, George Floyd, it's like, okay, like number one, I as a black man in America, I felt very just vulnerable at that time >> that my job could be just gone because of COVID. My life could be gone because of, you know, anything or racism. >> So, I'm looking at my kids like, if something happens to me, what have I left behind for them? the fact that I'm sober sweet, you know, but I'm like, let me start doing something that I feel like they can be they can see and something that's like a little more tangible than just like he was a cool guy and he ran or something like that. So, I started a um I heard this phrase said run eater Pete like years before and so I'm like you know I'm about to print shirts and make shirts that say run sleeper Pete. So that was like my like foray into like starting a company and having shirts for sale. People liked it. People were supporting it. And as I was doing that, like my social media presence was kind of growing like very slowly. But then I'm like, okay, how do I sell these shirts? Like what can I do around that? And then watching your podcast, I'm like, I could do like a podcast, right? And so I started doing live videos of the Run Eat Sleep show. So then I started doing live videos with people I knew. I would ask people to be on the show and I started interviewing like really big names in the industry or in the running world as I kind of went on. So everything just started like growing at that time and I was also doing the Tommy Runs thing, also doing the show, but I was making a lot of contact with brands because of the show. So I was just like they were feeding each other. Um, and then eventually I got to the point where Tommy Runs was just doing well enough where me doing this show, interviewing other people didn't feel like my voice anymore because Tommy Runs was my voice and I could talk about sobriety and talk about the things that I'm feeling, you know, on the other side of the world, you know, like I was in I was in Tokyo uh with my mom cuz she came to on that trip to to run the Tokyo Marathon. I was there the day like the day that my dad that I was the same exact age as my dad when he passed like cuz I was very familiar. Our birthdays are only 5 days apart. So I know like February 19th is the day he passed. I know. So I knew on this day I'm the exact same age as he was, you know. So, like I'm able to share that story directly through the Tommy Runs thing and I can lean into the the the the what I think is potentially helpful, maybe very vulnerable but helpful for other people in that position. And so, I just kept building that thing, slowed down on the show and leaned more into the Time Runs thing and started working with brands because of those relationships. That's just been my like my journey a little bit. >> What is the mission that you're on? Like what is the purpose of all of this? It's like what are you aiming for or trying to accomplish in the in the public facing aspect of of running these races and training for them and sharing your sobriety story? >> Um it imposter syndrome going crazy right now. um in to inspire people through telling my story and doing these things like in an authentic way, you know, like if I'm if I say yes to doing a race, uh it's obviously for me because I learned in the program like I have to put a lot of my decisions with me first in mind to make sure that like what that I'm okay and I want to do this and I can be um of value to the people around me at least. So I have my own like personal journeys and like this is why I'm going to do that because I want to do it and I know that it'll push me to to work hard to get there. But then I I share all this stuff and um run all these races to present like my my vulnerable self to people and try to make it look good and fun and cool. But if if I can go run six or seven marathons in a year or the speed project from LA to Las Vegas, you know, 340 mi, if that thing kind of clicks somebody into being like, "Oh, well then I can do like a 5K or 10K or whatever or even a marathon, then that's what, you know, that helped him doing that helped me >> you know, pass past the drive-thru on the way home or like the whole bag of chips. It's like it doesn't have to be running, you know? >> No, it doesn't have to be. >> Inspiration is transferable. >> Yeah. So, it's like if if I can just be real open and honest in this journey and do things that kind of light me up, then I want to inspire people along the way. And some of that like when I started that company and selling clothes and stuff like that, that was also like in a way it's like what can I do that makes me feel good enough that I can position this and share in a way that someone else can be inspired in some way. And but that also goes back to the sobriety thing is is just people sharing their stories. They weren't doing it for me. They weren't sharing their their drunken story for me and their 20 years of sobriety for me. >> Yeah. >> But them being real and open and showing like the the process that they went through, that's what inspired me to change my life and saved my life. >> Let's talk about representation. When I asked you about your mission, you know, a big piece of this is is is about representation. like, you know, what is the the black community's relationship to running generally, to the marathon space, and now more recently the trail space? >> Um, so I'll just speak from like my perspective. Most of us didn't grow up seeing running done as a hobby um or for fun or for health or for whatever. We just we thought like we've always thought that, you know, running and jogging is a white people thing to do. >> Yeah. I listened to the podcast that you did with our friend Zack Clark. Yeah. >> And you're like, "No offense, like jogging is a white people thing." >> Yeah, it is. You know, I mean, it was. And that's what at least that's what our perspective was on it cuz um we just didn't we just didn't grow up seeing that like in our in our areas and neighborhoods. Um and if we did, it was it was definitely not somebody that looked like us. So, you know, as I started running 2018, you know, I'd go to some of these races and um it was wasn't terrible, but it was still like very much um an outlier thing to do as a as a as a black man in this in in America to be like running marathons. And I know that there's plenty of people that were doing it before us, but that's just like, you know, you come into these races and you don't feel represented. Well, >> what's interesting about that is, you know, at the elite level, the highest level of performance from the 100 meters to the marathon, it's dominated by black people. >> Yeah. >> But then like >> that's not trickling down participation level. >> I mean, okay, like you're not jogging with Noah Li, you know, like >> he's not jogging, you know, but like but then on the other side, like when you talk about the marathons, I mean, they are black folks, but they're also just different. I mean they're they're you know just from they're different different countries. They're born in different circumstances and that doesn't necessarily like that just doesn't resonate with you know people from Chicago or Detroit or whatever you know it's just not it's not us still in some way like we're just like oh that's them cuz they're from Kenya or whatever. >> So it just there's a disconnect there when it when you when in reality there really shouldn't be cuz it should be like oh that's obvious we we should be able to do that. Um, but as I like started to run and and grow in that space more and then 2020 happened and then Black Lives Matter happened, then people are starting to like we're starting to gain steam, people are inside or like, you know, not going to work necessarily, so they have more time to try to find recreation. So, we saw that running boom and black people were involved in that. And then you have, you know, people that are out like really pushing forward like uh Allison Deir, like shout out to her, you know, like people like that were like outside like talking about these issues and how, you know, the running community or running industry needs to to open and at least, you know, make space for this to be a path, you know, and as that happened, you know, you got run clubs popping up shouts like we run 313 in Detroit and all these big run huge run clubs right now. It's like started in those in like around that time and >> gave black people um a space to come and hang out and run two, three, four, 10 miles, whatever that felt like this is our thing and we do belong at least in this spot. And so the more you saw that happen, the more you saw that trickle into like 5ks, 10ks, marathons. And as I'm going through like my marathon journey and sharing it intentionally, um, not being like, hey, I'm the only black person here, but it's like, hey, I'm here and here's the process that I went through and sharing it in a way that I think looks cool. And then you start seeing more and more people um, gravitate towards like, okay, marathon's next and let's what are we going to do? And as I saw like that thing happen, now that I've like kind of stepped into trail, I just walking into a running space that doesn't mirror or even closely resemble the progress that's happened on the road feels very um it feels intentional. It feels like like how is this possible, right? You know, like how is this happening? I mean, the trail, you know, racing, running world is is about as white as it gets. >> Yeah. So, and in being closer to it, like from from the outside looking in, it's like, oh, this is intentional for sure. But then you get closer to it and you know, you maybe talk to the right people and you start seeing like what the what the actual intention is, but maybe there's not enough paths or like whatever tools for this to change rapidly. So, as I'm like in this space, I'm like, how can I what can I do to like help this? Because I feel like I was I helped a bit like on the roadside just by sharing like my journey and pushing forward and speaking on podcast and sharing like my perspective on like what black running is and what like the black experiences are at these races and traveling around the world. um how can I mimic that or like lean into that feeling of not only you know showing or making a statement that that shows that there's so much room to grow here but doing it in a way that's pulling people in um and not necessarily speaking at the like not avoiding the issue but not but all my focus is on how do I make connections for like someone that's in Atlanta, what if I post a video or a picture or a shirt that makes somebody say like, "I want to support that, but I don't run on trails, so let me go find a trail." Or, "Oh, if Tommy just ran Western States, I don't even know what Western States is or like why it's important, but it seems like it's important. I can find a trail near me." And I'm not necessarily saying like we all need to be out there, but the fact that it's it's definitely it's just so much different than road. Like you don't run for 5 miles on the road and then go, "Oh, wow. Look at this." Like it's like >> Yeah. >> You know, it's it I was listening to Oprah Pod that she did the other day and she was talking about hiking is her favorite thing to do right now. And she said that like you don't look at the where you're going. You don't look at the top of it the whole time. You just kind of head down doing your thing and every like 10 minutes or so you can like look backwards to see how far you how far you've come. And when you run these trail races, like if it's a long enough race, you could run for 10 minutes, 15 minutes, and if you can look around, the view changes so often that it's so like you find yourself looking at things that you never dreamed that you that you'd see. And I want that experience for as many people as possible, especially people of of color that like grew up that didn't think that they'd ever see themselves on a mountain. >> Mhm. [clears throat] I said on a on a panel once, it was like we did a little a shakeout run um for Trailcon last year and it's a four mile run. It's not very far, you know, it's just four miles and you get to the top of that thing. It's like right up near the escarment and you turn around and you look and you see views that I that a picture just a phone couldn't capture the beauty of this thing. And so if I can share my journey that would make someone potentially want to find that in their way, that's like what I have to do. >> Yeah. It's very much uh attraction, not promotion. You know, it's kind of a recovery principle. You're not trying to convince people that this is what they should do. You're kind of modeling the aspiration of doing it yourself as a magnet to attract more people and and demonstrate that it's possible. But when I think about why the trail community is the way that it is, I mean, you you use the word, you know, intentional. I mean, what are the the barriers to access are economic, obviously, there's proximity to trails, you know, for communities that are in urban environments, etc. There's not seeing somebody that they recognize or, you know, feel like represents who they are in this community. And now you're very much like serving that role for a lot of people. What are the other factors that you think have contributed to this? And and beyond what you're doing individually, >> what are the solutions >> to diversifying this sport? Because it started so granola. It's not like like these were cheap races. Nobody was signing up for them. Now there's a lot of money in it. It's very different. But um but it's not like you know lacrosse or hockey or you know or cycling or something that you know there's a there's a there's a huge capital expenditure involved except that there's having to travel to these places and that's obviously expensive. >> Yeah. I mean so I think it's just the some of the solution is like back to intention you know like it's um I'm a brand like guy like work with brands so it's it's a lot of my thought when I see like some of these spaces the community itself plays a big role in like how much they're like trying to extend that net or like the the like how much are you trying to show that this is an option like and attract people in but then you're also like I also look at the at the some of these uh the brands I mean because you know how it works like you choose some brands they go on a trip to Tahoe or whatever there's they're making a choice of who they want to be there and it seems like really simple and little but like you know I'm not saying every brand invite me somewhere but like if there's people that are already in trail and they may not be the biggest trail influencer in the world it's it's it's a vote to be like you know we I do want trail as a brand I do want trail to look different. I do want Trail to represent our customer base. I do want Trail to feel like everyone should be able to experience something like this. So, our vote as a brand is to make sure that we're finding authentic people that are really into this thing, but then they also serve as a catalyst or like uh people that will open the aperture of a community to be like, hey, you know, that's an option, too. because I think you know there's obviously some some economic issues of how or in proximity of trail and all that stuff but there's also a lack of or has been a lack of a communication of like the possibilities of it just period because two years ago >> I didn't see if you can see it >> and you're interested you you you'll make it happen you know like you can make it happen at least So I think that it just has to be more of a vote and a real thought like let's look back at road in 2019 2020 2021 and how much brands leaned in to making sure that that row was more diverse and these races are more diverse in the in um advertising and brand trips and blah blah blah blah. That was a very strategic effort, you know, on them in response to a lot of pressure, but they responded decent to it. So like maybe we should think about for trail let's implement some of that and lean into as a community whether it's brand whether it's um uh organizations whether it's conferences how do you lean into like we want this place to look like you know what we want a random trail race in the you know close to Chicago to look >> you know cuz this isn't about getting more people to one spot or like one race and access to western states or trail con or broken air like that's a separate that's like an entity within itself like that's an isolated thing but there there is access to these to trails much closer than that and much cheaper than going to fly to Tahoe California >> sure I mean most urban areas have some kind of natural preserve situation that isn't that far away >> but it's also a mindset thing like the idea of like I'm an urban dweller this is my environment like I I don't belong in those spaces like it's a it's before you even get into trail running it's like oh just like I'm going to go for a walk in a nearby forest. >> Yeah. >> You know could be a leap for you know a certain a certain person who was raised um to believe a certain thing about like who they are. >> Yeah. Like we like when I came here it's it's you know I see a mountain close by. Two years ago I would have just saw a mountain like just that just happened. whatever. I don't care. But as soon as I see it now, I'm seeing like, oh, maybe I should look on on on an app to find out if there's a trail or not. And I think that that's like that little switch of there's a there's a potential really cool view or like a really good workout that could be had if I just find a trail. And a lot of people just don't have that. Like if if you I don't even know all the trails in my area, you know? And there's people that have been in trail that would be like, "Yo, bro, there's a trail 15 minutes from you. Like what do you mean?" And that to me is just saying like let's open up like the the direct like line to like this is a possibility and if even if you only run on trail like once a whatever or you don't >> it just it should be an option or an unlock there and I think that that's the way towards progress is opening that thought up to to as many people as possible so they can decide how far they want to go when we push for like more people to more black folks and brown folks to be on on the road at these marathons. That doesn't mean, you know, everybody that was inspired by that doesn't mean that they ran a marathon, but they might have started going to their their local run club. They might have just decided to get to run by themselves and get healthy. But how do we just like get that rolling and get that momentum as a people and as a community? >> Were you the only black person running Western States? No, there was only a few. But I don't I don't know all of the people, but I think there was at least I can't remember if I saw any other black person at Trail Con other than you. >> Oh, okay. Well, Trailcon was a little different. Um Trail uh I was the only person that was I think that was like speak that spoke at Trailcon this year. Um that was black and there were like a lady that I know that was there. She was black. She counted I think it was like four of us at Trailcon >> and then probably less than >> thousands of people that attended that event. the Trailcon part and some of the Western States part. To me, that's it. The brands have a lot to do with that. I think, you know, there's a they spend a lot of money to be sponsors to these to these things. Yeah. It's become a very commodified event like all the vendors and like you know, ACG had a huge like presence there like every brand was showing up at Trailcon like and you know they're investing money in this space like it's a very commercial prospect right now. Yeah. And so, but like in that, you know, if a brand's a big sponsor, they're not it's not just them. They're bringing people with them. They're we know this influencer market is what it is. They're they've got five 10 people there just making content, having fun, running the races, being involved in the in the in the conference. So, it's like at that moment, I think that's the decision. That's the point where it's like, okay, like where how can we make that part look a little different too intentionally? that I think that's the move, you know, for some of these bigger moments is like how do we vote in the right direction? And it's not a diversity. It's not like a oh, let's um it's not a DEI thing. This is just like what do you want trail to be and look like? Do you want it just to be what it's always been? Do you or do you want to see some of the progress and innovation that's happened on the road when it comes to like run clubs and race, different types of races, different types of brands, uh making different types of clothes and apparel. All that came because just more people from different backgrounds were attracted to it. And we've seen the running boom because of so many different people. It wasn't because running stayed the same. >> So if you look at trail like how can we bring more more people from some thought they would be there forever, some never even imagined it, but those two people come together. It's it the possibility is like kind of endless. >> Sure. that was the topic of at least one panel at Trail Con. Like there's a lot of uh discourse around like what's happening to the Trail community. You know, it's it's grown obviously. >> Um but you know, there's a romanticization of like the early days where you would pitch your tent at the starting line and it was you know, a couple guys in vans or whatever and now it is what it is today. Is this moving in the right direction? Is it not? Like there are protectionists like we need to protect the purity of this culture and then there are opportunists on the other side of that spectrum who are like looking at like the financial >> opportunities that are available here. And in the middle there's like you know a variety of opinions about like what this community should look like and what trail running should represent etc. But the community is dictated by the people who are participating in that community. It's not dictated from above like this is who we are and what we are. It's like the people who inhabit the ecosystem are the ones who get to decide that and unless you are onboarding a diversity of voices, it's going to you know remain stagnant and kind of stuck in what it was before and it's missing out on what it could be by you know virtue of having a variety of perspectives. >> Yeah. Because like the more the you know to the people that like are are romanticizing like the old days and keeping some of these things you know so pure. Um I understand that like it's I mean I get that I get >> and there are certain races that probably will always stay that way like Barkley Marathons is never going to change. You know >> somebody's like would you run Barkley? Hell no. [laughter] Right. Like so >> I'm not ridiculous. Um, but it's like to those people that like are trying to like hold on to that, the running boom has showed us that like if you don't open the door to new voices, the way that things are going with social media, it's going to happen. They're going to they're going to people are going to start running trail regardless whether you invite them or not, you know, or if you if they feel welcome by you or not. And so if you feel like a like a real like trail trail purist and you want people to take care of the trail and you want people to to make sure that they're like respecting like nature and all these different things, you should openly be a part of the growth of the sport instead of like clinging to like we can't do this because of the you know all these reasons. open up a bit and realize that you could be like the the the generation or the people that help guide this growth in a way that stays and maintains like this this purity of I mean because we are in nature. It's not like we're just running down the street and there's some rules and guidelines that you should follow, you know, just because it's we're running on on on on borrowed land or taken land, you know, and so we should respect these things. And if you decide that you don't want this group to come because they are different, then they're probably going to do whatever they think is best for them at that moment. And that may not be in line with what some of the things you're trying to say. And then so it's just going to happen anyway. >> Is there anything else that we should we should talk about when we're talking about u representation and inclusion? Like have I even asked like the right questions? Is there something that I'm missing? >> No, I don't think so. I'm like you said earlier, I'm very much on that like I'm going on my journey and I know that I repres I know what I represent and I know who I am and so I intentionally just share because of that. >> And I'm not like I'm not as well verssed on all the things that are like the way to move a culture and a movement forward. I just know that, you know, if I can use what I have in my and the leverage that I have with brands or the relationships that I have with brands, then I'll just try to push um in that way. Cuz if I can maybe risk or like maybe not jeopardize, but if I can use some of those things that I have to say like, oh, hey, can we get a couple people couple more people invited to this space that wouldn't necessarily be invited by you? But just the fact that there's this, you know, dude with dreadlocks who's like running western states and every every other dude kind of looks like the same guy. Yeah. >> You know, a skinny guy with a probably with a mustache and you know, >> some good mustaches. >> Yeah. And you know, listen, nothing but love, but uh you know, I think it's really powerful. It's it's like you don't >> like just your being there, you know, is is making a statement louder than anything you could put into words. And it's it's powerful. Like if I if I could say like what I would love to recreate, I guess the feeling of or the thought of was like when I did uh the speed project in uh early 2025. Going into that thing, what I saw was who does this race if they do it solo is is like white and super tatted and really cool looking, you know. But then there was a guy named Malcolm who who was the second person to do like the OG 340 mi route. He's a black dude from from New York. explain what uh the Speed Project is for people that don't know before we get too deep into this. >> Speed Project is a unsanctioned um race from Santa Monica Pier to the Las Vegas the old the welcome to Las Vegas sign in Las Vegas, Nevada. It's a the original route that they did was 340 mi um on foot and but there are no rules as well. So like there's relay teams that do it. It's a mainly a relay race. >> Most people do it. most people >> by relay because it's 340 miles, right? So, how many people solo it? And >> when you say there's no rules, like it doesn't even matter like what route you take to get there. Like people are taking all different kinds of routes. >> Yeah. So, there's only only like I guess technically there's only one route and it's like the OG route >> that's like if you're going to say you did the OG, this is the route you have to go. Any other thing is shorter if you can find a way to do it while being safe, not on the, you know, whatever. Um, you just get to go. So it can be as it can be as short as 200 like high high 200s or as long as 340 or unless you get lost it could be more I guess. But he had done Malcolm had done the 340 mile route solo and he was the second person to have done that OG route and not gone like through some of the other ways that people have like carved into this thing now. and he was really instrumental in like once he found out that I was going to do it, he like I met him before in like the marathon scene, but he hit me up and was like he was really helpful and like for me and my crew. Um, so he kind of like gave us gave me the the like audacity to like continue to push for this and make sure I showed up. Like one thing he said was like don't come to this thing and then just kind of fit in with whatever. Be Tommy runs like all the way, you know? That's kind of the ethos of the whole event. Like you said, like lots of tatted guys. Like >> there's a panache to this event that's very different from the traditional trail world. Like this is like it's very punk rock. >> Yeah, it is. It feels like and he helped me by just being him >> um and being being useful like re resource-wise and knowledge. But then when I went about it, I made sure like I lived up to like that part. I was like, I've been Tommy runs this whole time. I did this on the road already. just make sure you pull up and be you like fully. And we captured it and made a little documentary and everything about it. The cool part, >> you're saying that with a lot of humility like that documentary is incredible. >> Oh, thank you. >> Yeah. Yeah. I watched it for a second time um this morning. >> It's really well done. It's beautiful and it really illustrates the odyssey of this race and the highs and lows. like you just go to the depths of your capabilities uh and you're being tested, you know, to the fullest extent uh you know, possible. And it's all illustrated and beautifully beautifully filmed. So, I encourage everybody to to check out that documentary. I'll link it up in the show notes and stuff. >> And it was called and I called the hero. And I knew I was going to call a hero before, but it was really just it wasn't necessarily like I'm about to go be a hero, but it was that moment of um that storyline of like we all have to be like the hero of our of our own stories at some point. And we all did it at some point whether we decided to like I'm going to lose weight or I'm going to get sober or I'm going to start a company. Those moments where we had to decide to like no longer be the villain victim or guide for someone else. We had to be the hero ourselves. And me telling me doing this and like sharing my sobriety story and walk this whole time was just me deciding at one point I had to be like the hero of this journey and that hopefully people would watch it and decide to be the hero of theirs in some way. >> But the way that I shared it intentionally was like I'm like told the guy um this dude named Olu he shot it was his first time making a feature like a feature length film. Oh wow. He did just a phenomenal job. Like it's crazy. I never had didn't meet him until the day that we met in Santa Monica or I met him before at TR. He took some pictures of me. That's how that's how I knew about him. But spent six days, seven days with us. Um, but I told that story like that openly and show I mean, please don't get all the highlights like show all the all the crap that's like makes it challenging. And then fast forward, reason why I brought it up is cuz like this year, shout out to a d young dude named Mitchie Paul from from uh from Boston. He ran, he's the fourth person to do uh the OG route, a a young black guy from Boston. And uh it was like he did it because he saw me do it. And I also felt like that's it was cool because I also showed everything that I had to show. So it wasn't like I vainly inspired him. I showed them all the [ __ ] And if you feel like you're watching what I'm doing and and I share my story, whether it's sobriety or being black in space content creating or whatever, I want you to be inspired by something I do, but for the right reasons. And >> the inspiration doesn't come from uh this this idea that you're out crushing it. Like, you're you're just so beaten up, dude. Like, it's shocking that you finished this race. like you're so far away from Vegas and you can't even walk, you know, and you've just got like an insane number of miles left before you're going to get there. >> And the inspiration is like how did he even like >> complete this thing? Like you were just absolutely broken. That's what I wanted to show because that to me is the same story as as us or me in sobriety because you're just like like shredded to pieces at some point and like how do you continue like how do you keep keep going and how do you make make that decision for yourself even though like everything's telling you to stop or saying that you can't make it or can't do it. >> So how do you do that? To me, it's like that somewhere you you've you've made some decision that you're willing to go as far as you possibly can and then a little bit more. Partially because, you know, I feel like I owe it to myself to go farther than I thought and dig deeper than I thought I could because I don't think I'll ever be as low even in that whole dock. I'll never be as low as I was in those last like couple years of sobriety. Just never. I don't care if I'm choosing to do this. Like it's my I want to do this. It may be terrible in that moment, but I got to remind myself that I can go further because like this is what I decided to do. >> To me, what you did and the documentary that you made about that journey is a living breathing document. It's the embodiment of this idea I believe in that we're all so much more capable than we allow ourselves to believe and that our darkest moments and our depths of despair and our trauma are actually engines of change and transformation. >> Yeah, you want we can redo the documentary. You could narrate it. [laughter] >> No, I it's perfect as it is, dude. Yeah, it really illustrates those are the themes, you know, that come across for me >> that these low moments are not things to be ashamed of. They're things to be leveraged. >> Yeah. >> Um and the way that you do that is the way that you get sober one day at a time, one foot in front of the other. What's the next right thing to do? What's the contrary action to take? and cultivating this familiarity, this relationship with discomfort as a friend rather than something to avoid. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this like this choosing the the uncomfortable thing to do when you know it's against your lower nature is like if I could say that to myself over and over, I think I'd still even be a better person. if you can choose to lean into that like that thing that's saying you really should do this even though you don't want to, you know, that's what I lacked for so long, you know, and that's why I, you know, essentially like hated myself and who I was and who I was going to be was just because of this like my first thought was always go towards like what's comfortable now even if it was the most painful choice. >> Mhm. That has to be the hardest thing that you've done >> that that distance. >> Yeah. that race in comparison to western states or are they all just some version of awful? >> Yeah, they're all some they're all some version of awful. The Speed Project 340 was was challenging, but it was like it felt like I was all the pain was spread out over like a few days instead of like Western States was was challenging, really tough like in its own right because it was such a short period of time and you have like a thought of like when I want to finish this thing. Um like I wanted to finish in 22 hours and I finished in 2455 which I'm still happy about. But it's like boiling it down to like a day of movement and having like a time goal in in mind is to me just made the speed project feel like a little easier in a sense. Um but it's all it's all like some version of of crap. >> What is the difference? Like you're a marathon guy. You've done all these marathons for a long time. You're like the guy who's always at every marathon and now you're in the trail world. like how do you put to words like the difference in those experiences? And then secondarily, like how do you change your training to train for these kinds of races versus marathons? >> I guess I've never I never like looked at it like differently like showing up and doing this. I I look at it the same because I'm still me wherever I'm going to go. I just try to look at it the exact same and just share as I'm going along. um and just connect and and and bring the presence that I feel like maybe is lacking in the room and and like that might be mine, you know, and just making sure that I'm like truthful and honest in like whatever answers or whatever questions I get asked. >> There's this idea like a marathon is long and it's super hard, but you know, in >> 240, whether it's, you know, 246 or 4 and a half hours or 6 hours, it's going to be over, right? Like you're gonna you're going to be on this trail for what is going to feel like a lifetime by comparison. Yeah. To me, to be honest, like once I did the speed project, I think I think I kind of started on the deep end, you know? >> Yeah. >> I I really [laughter] >> I enjoy like this >> the pyramid's upside down. Yeah. >> I feel like and then I'll be down to 50 miles. But um I feel like I enjoy this this I enjoy this like low level of like consistent discomfort in negotiating with yourself. Like in a marathon, you do it is over much quicker and it seems like to me there's just less opportunity to make a choice to stop. You know, like during a 100 mile race or 100k, there's so many exit points. There's so many exit ramps where you could just be like, "Yeah, I'm done." You know, and you're you're negotiating with yourself for hours and hours and hours. You know, out of 24 hours, I probably wanted to like it's I en but I enjoy it feels like my life. 100 miles feels like what 42 years of trying to figure it out like as I go along and trying to talk to myself the right way and not lean into every negative thought or thing that happens. And so like when you get to a finish line, it's like you it's like you rearrive and like have like re like shown yourself again that everything that just happened in that race and everything that's happened so far in my life all still can come together and be a success. And I just don't feel like I have in marathons, they're just so much faster and it's just kind of a >> not a blink of an eye, but it is essentially just over much. It's just over faster 24 hours. You're not running a marathon for 24 hours. >> Yeah. >> So, it's like it feels like very gratifying to to do a 100 mileer or run through these different, you know, races and see different um scenes as you go through and views. You know what I mean? >> There's also the highs and lows that you experience. uh the longer the distance. Like if you're running a marathon, like you're going to go and then you're either gonna maybe you're going to blow up and like that's all she wrote. >> In an ultra, you can feel like it's over and then suddenly something shifts and then you feel good again, you know, like there there's it es and flows in a different kind of way. >> As you were sharing, I was thinking about uh Max Joliff's recent performance at Badwater, which is just absolutely insane. like yeah like like bow let's all bow down you know at at that performance it's like when you look at >> his stats I don't know if you saw them like he's running 730s and then he's running eights and and you're like okay when's it going to drop down to the 12minute mile it just he's at like eights consistently the entire time and >> I think it was I don't know if it was mile 35 but like pretty early in the race like he was like this is not going well and his he was having gut issues and he thought it was all over and and suddenly when he gets to the hills or what he has a second wind and like you know he just he comes alive again like there are these kind of mini deaths and rebirths that happen along the way that you're not going to experience in a marathon and not for nothing like >> you know it's 130 degrees out his body temp is like he even has his body temp metrics and there it goes up to like 101 degrees like he's essentially running a fever you know >> and his heart rate never goes over like 138 like it's just like That is a bananas performance. >> Yeah. I text him after that and was like, "Hey, congrats, bro. How you feeling?" He said, "That race took everything that I had." >> I can't imagine. And you know, nobody has won that race without doing some version of a runwalk method. And he never walked the entire way. >> Insane. >> He only stopped to like change his shoes or whatever. Like that is just like the next level. And that's what continues to convince me that, you know, this is such a new sport and even when we see these outrageous breakthrough performances, like I think we're still at the beginning of seeing what's actually possible. And the longer the distance, the bigger the delta between like, >> you know, who's winning now and who's going to be winning, you know, what we're going to see in five or 10 years from now, you know, >> like with UTMB coming up, like I'm really interested to see like what happens there, you know, cuz it just seems like since I just started watching or looking into Trail even, it's just like the the the like advancements in like the the the gains that have that have happened over like a year's time are just really crazy. Um, and it's just fun to watch. It's fun to watch. Like these people are, including Max, like these people are ridiculous people. >> Like this the guy who won Western, what he finished in sub4 or something like that. >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's >> Yeah, sub 14. Three Three people finished. >> The pace at which people are running Western States now that are winning is just is off the rails. >> I was out there. I know it's not like Apparently, it's not hard. >> 246 marathoner and it took you uh, you know, 24 plus hours to finish this thing. some of the stuff that these people ran up at mile 90 something it like while I was running I'm like this is ridiculous like I got my friend Ern out there he'd never been out there he never seen it he's like I can't believe you're still we're still moving but yeah these races are just they're they're beautiful in their own like right like if you're if you are like interested in like these longer distances it's a journey like it's a it's like you said like the highs and lows the lows are long and you have to like manage your way through those and that's why I think I like it cuz I spent so much of my life kind of at this low energy or not low energy but like low like state of mind that like it's kind of fun to to be there and still and have to like negotiate through those cuz you know it's going to change and it's not life or death if it doesn't you know like you can you can stop if you need to and you know you can DNF this and the one thing about trail that's really cool is like DNF is not like some big shameful thing like if you if you don't finish a marathon the road scene is like more like like oh dang what happened like you you know if you don't if you DNF 100 mileers it's like oh okay well next year you know >> yeah I mean sometimes it's just not going to happen it just happens but >> it's just been it's been really fun and and I'm going to run marathons still like I'm actually going to be running Berlin I'm not going to be racing it cuz I'm not like fit like that but I'll be running it and I'm always going to be around the marathon scene cuz it's just it's still so fun. It's still like that's where like my people are at and that's where I feel like that's where I started at. But I definitely want to keep pushing in the trail and like just see I want to see where I can go like, you know, helping, you know, increase visibility is one thing, but then I also would love to see like what me a couple years from now running 100ks, 100 mileers, like I wonder what that looks like. >> Yeah. >> Finish time wise. >> Uh we left the training part dangling. >> Okay. Training in training. >> Training was cool. Like big shout out to my coach Melissa Johnson Weiss. She's been she I got her before my first marathon in 2019. So she's been with me all these years through all these different races, backto-back races, tsp. So it's like she literally just ramped up the numbers and changed some of like the the the like the concepts of a workout. And a lot of it was much more instead of trying to hit this marathon pace for a 10 mile, you know, progression run, it's more about like, okay, you're going outside and you're going to be outside for 4 hours today >> and just get outside and get moving. And the miles are much obviously the the weekly miles is crazy high. >> Mhm. But at the same time, >> lower volume, lower intensity. >> Yeah. Just you're just out there. And we still did like workouts like to for turnover to not make to make sure it's not boring. But she's done a really great job of like hearing what I wanted to do, believing that I that I would put in the work to do it and then and just give me a plan and like letting me do my thing. >> Um, so the training for it is just slower, longer, way more miles. I think for for Western States, I think I was like a couple weeks over 100. Um, but a lot of like just time outside and I enjoy just not necessarily having to go be obsessive over a pace for 16 weeks of training. >> Yeah. >> Similar to myself, your your influence sort of crisscrosses uh recovery with running. >> And that means that like me, you're also probably getting um a lot of DMs from people uh you know with questions about these things. And one of the things that I've that I'm curious about uh that I've experienced is uh a fair amount of confusion that conflates these two things like in other words that the recovery is is related to running uh in a way that like misrepresents like what sobriety is like oh if I just start running like that's the solution to my addiction problem versus like what you and I both know that it's anchored in like working this program and that's something that's very different and takes priority over the running. The running is a byproduct of putting in the work in the rooms of recovery and participating in in sobriety. But I would imagine that you probably get like, oh, like I'm I'm struggling with this, but like I've quit drinking and now I'm I'm running, but there's like no program there. >> Yeah. >> Like how do you respond to those people or try to be helpful uh for people who are >> either struggling with sobriety or sober curious and also running curious? you know, it's sort of like let's take care of the sobriety thing first, like and then we can get to the running part later. >> I think exactly that like I I remind people um that there they wouldn't know who I am or they wouldn't be DMing me if it wasn't for sobriety period. I started running a year after. So, a lot of times like I'll I'll people like to like if you do a podcast or an interview or something like that, they'll try to go, "Oh, he use you running to stay sober." And I like I make them change. running is how you got sober. >> Yeah. Like I make them change that cuz like I wouldn't I there wouldn't be any running if I didn't get sober. And so I just try to like remind people while they're trying to figure their thing out. I remind them what is most important to me. And most important to me is soiety cuz without that I wouldn't be here. It's as simple as that. Like I can't necessarily I mean I can say check out a meeting or whatever but at the same time like I just want to make sure that whoever's talking to me understands like what I put as a priority >> so that they can maybe look at their thing okay maybe I am using this as something that is unsustainable cuz what if you get hurt what if you don't like running after 6 months or whatever are you back that means you're back to drinking or back to whatever um so I just say like hey priority is the is the sobriety do that and everything else and do that for yourself, not for anybody else. Be sober for you and then everybody else benefits from that. And the running thing or for the cycle or whatever it is, that's all second or third or whatever, but never first. >> It's complimentary though, you know, it it it is putting the principles into action. Like you have to take contrary action. You have to take things one day at a time. You know, it's it's it's an exercise in humility because you're never going to you're never going to beat the mountain and you're never going to beat yourself and there's always going to be other people faster than you. >> And uh and it's also an exercise in confronting yourself honestly, you know, like you can't participate in one of these races, especially the really long ones or or any race for that matter really, and not have uh your denial upended. You know what I mean? cuz you're going to meet yourself where you are in in the truest version of yourself and that's an opportunity for growth like just like how can I move towards this thing that is uncomfortable it's going to teach me something and failure is good because I can learn from that uh and I can grow as a result of these experiences so it's not that running is you know something totally detached from sobriety and I think it's why so many people in recovery gravitate towards endurance sports because it is it's almost like a spiritual practice on some level. >> Yeah. You just like you just have so much time to to to work through these things like in movement. But if you're some of these longer races, like you said, there's so many um you meet yourself, different versions of yourself so many different times in these races if you want to finish and keep going, you do have to like have that conversation with yourself. I mean, you're out there sometimes by yourself for hours. >> Yeah. And you have plenty of opportunity to to beat yourself up if you want and talk crap to yourself or and or continue >> or like change that negative internal >> Yeah. narration >> and then but then that lasts for 20 minutes sometimes like you you feel like a high for 20 minutes and you're back to that low again because something reminds you of the thing that was bothering you before. >> So it's it's it's the it's therapeutic. I was going to say it's therapy, but it's therapeutic in a way just to to know that you are you've signed yourself up for a task that is going to require you to to dig so deep, you know, to continue at certain moments um that when you finish it just it feels like you you're a different person on the other side of these races if you allow it. because you could go through and kind of, you know, only look at the highs and go like, "Okay, I'm great." But I also it that's pointless. That's also like when people are sober and they're only just looking at the the the the fancy stuff that they get to tell people how many like how long they've been sober. >> They they are transformative experiences. Like each and every one of them is like its own hero's journey. >> 100%. Yeah. >> And I'm just I'm grateful that like I'm grateful that I started backwards and did the TSB thing first, >> but I'm just like I'm so grateful to like to be out there like I when I was when I was in at Western, I planned on being done before the sun rose, >> but like the one of the most beautiful moments of that race was after like coming to terms with like I wasn't having the day that I wanted to have around like 19 or 20 hours in that I was gonna I was going to miss this goal of the 22-hour thing and may maybe even the 24h hour the sub 4 like once I like in motion like was able to like keep moving forward but then also like grapple with that disappointment potentially and rephrase and reframe like what life was at that second or that time got to this point where the sun rose that I didn't think I was going to see and it was the most beautiful moment and like joyful moment of the race when I looked around and saw like this sun rising over the mountain and that to me is like we all thought we were going to be somewhere different or somewhere better at this point. But if you stop thinking about like the future or the lack of the future that you thought you wanted and really stay like exactly where you are, like be where your feet are and be in this moment, it's so many beautiful things like right in front of us. And we're experiencing so many things to be grateful for. even in the midst of like the most terrible or tough moments of our lives, there's always something like right there that we can be eternally grateful for. And running to me shows me that just in much more like physical sense. And then I get to go home and try to figure out like how what I learned from that moment and then how can I actually like live that out in a day-to-day basis and maybe even like impart some wisdom like onto my kids first and then maybe other people after. It's a very elaborate extensive gratitude practice, >> you know, [gasps] >> but that opportunity to frame it uh you know having agency over how you you know decide uh whether this was a good or a bad experience, whether or not it went your way or not. Like another example of that is Molly Sidell who Olympic marathon like the elite of the elite of the elite who like is like okay now I'm going into trail and you know there isn't that much time or distance between when she was just like you know the world's best essentially >> uh and things didn't go her way at Western states she ends up finishing around the same time you do I don't know exactly like in the same range right that could be chocked up as like a failure or like oh turns about like the Olympic marathon like that doesn't translate on the trail but it's actually a story of triumph because almost anybody else in her shoes would have pulled out and she's like I am finishing this thing >> and it was just the most kind of courageous you know kind of statement that she could make and ends up >> being this inspirational story rather than like an example of failing. I mean, to me, it just shows it shows me where like where her ego lies. And her ego is is more so on the like I'm going to finish what I started thing as opposed to like a ego of what people are going to think of of this time because like you said, if somebody in her shoes >> pulling the plug and then just signing up for a different race, you know, and just running as a professional. But I saw that and like huge hats off to her cuz a lot of people that were elites and pro and pros dropped out that day and no like shame in that. they made the decision that worked for them, but she signed on and was like, "Nope, I'm gonna I'm finishing." And who cares what everybody else thinks as long as she crossed that finish line and was proud of herself and felt like she >> Yeah. And she was so like it looked like a very cathartic experience for her. >> Yeah. And and I I love that like that's >> I mean cuz that's more realistic to all of us anyway. >> Mhm. the perfect race day like happens for who you know like very very rarely even on the marathon side you don't like strike a perfect race all the time her having that moment and deciding to continue and push through and then share it and let it just be a thing and go on pods and talk about it that's like that's what we're doing is is living life and trying to do it to the best of our ability and and framing it or sharing it in a way that's like authentic true and like potentially inspirational >> yeah um all right uh I got a few uh lightning round questions for you. >> Okay, >> Tommy, >> Rich, >> what are you running towards and more importantly, what are you running away from? Um I'm running towards whatever's in the future. It's like I'll leave it at that cuz I don't know what's out there. Um I'm running away from the person, the version of me that was scared of the future. And once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. You can hide, you know, in this world uh very easily like and and and be shrouded in in praise and external validation for doing these races. You know, we all have things that we avoid and we can use any device uh to make people think that we're not avoiding them. >> So, what is the next mountain that you have to climb? Not running wise, but like personal growth wise or like like spiritually or like in terms of you know your psychological well-being cuz the work is never done right. We know this from the rooms >> for just like my own personal like internal work. It's more for me it's about like for me it's about like loving myself you know enough to um align like my actual decisions on a day-to-day basis and or even like some of the things that I am aiming for or want to do or share with the world or all of those things are based in like how much will I allow myself to like be proud and love myself you know and cuz some of this stuff whether whether I want to like sit here and be cool or not is based in validation in a sense, you know, like I would run these races I think without people saying is cool, but at the same time that's also part of the thing that's like feeding like my will to do more. And somewhere under there is this is like is this kid that's like not good enough. Um, [clears throat] and I just want to make sure that like as I'm growing that I'm actually like checking that version of me and bringing that like up to speed >> to like not just preach a story that's inspirational, but like live a life that like that I'm actually proud of that if everything went away like I'd still be really cool with it and I would still Keep going forward. >> Beautiful, man. I love that answer. >> All right, the rest of these are are fun ones. That was the heavy That was a heavy one. That wasn't really a speed round question, was it? >> Yeah. Okay, thanks. >> I lied to you. >> What is the appropriate reaction when you wave at a fellow runner and they don't wave [laughter] back? The appropriate reaction of you passing a runner, unless you're like in Central Park where there's like a thousand people running, you wave back. you wave or wave back or a nod or something like acknowledge each other. It's just human. It's a thing, you know. If you see me and I wave at you and we've made eye contact and I saw that you saw me wave and you don't wave, >> I think that's just that's just that's just rude on >> what's just punishment for the person who doesn't >> straight to jail. Straight to jail. So, yeah. [snorts] So, yeah, PR Project we do >> we're talking truth here. >> Run clubs are cool. >> Um, >> are there too many run clubs? Have we maxed out on run clubs? >> Nah, I won't say that. I I don't think we've maxed out on run clubs. I feel like maybe um maybe we've maxed out on some of the same type of run clubs, but I think that if you're if you're into like Zelda and you got a Zelda run club, great. If you're a trail guy or girl or whatever, you want to run do a trail run club, do it. I think that um we can't like police or people gathering for whatever reason they want to gather. >> Training with carbon plated shoes. Hell yeah. Or super cringe. >> Hell yeah. Okay. Why? >> Why not? >> It's more fun. >> You run faster, >> you know? Or just like I mean they're built for fast and speed, but they're also built in a way that like saves your legs. I mean, it may not be super healthy to always run in them. I'm not sure. I'm not a scientist. I've heard people talk about it different ways, >> but I think that like some of the long runs that I have, it's like I I'll bring out some super shoes and carbon plate shoes and figure out how to get through this run and have a good day and put the miles in. And I see nothing wrong with it. I was in New York uh a little while back and did this podcast with Chris Chavez and Malcolm Gladwell. And before we started taping, Malcolm was just talking. He's like, "I love I love training in carbon blade is because like also when you're older, like you know, you recover faster." >> Yeah. >> All right, good. You're on the record on that. >> Okay. >> Um what is a real runner? >> Somebody that runs. If you run to me, if you run once a month, a week, whatever, you're a runner. If you can, if you have a practice, uh, your movement practice is running. No matter how often you do it or how fast or slow you do it, you're a runner. Related question, also related to the Run Club question. What do you make of the fashion explosion in running right now? Because I'm of two minds when it comes to this. Like, I think it's cool. Like, I I'm like excited about like some like flare coming into the scene. Yeah. and some interesting, you know, brands that are trying to do things a little bit differently. Um, it just makes it feel like more vibrant and fun, >> but it also could be something that a new, you know, quote unquote real runner might find intimidating. Like it's a price of entry. Like if I don't if I show up to my run club and I don't have the right socks or, you know, my kid is like, you know, not not quite there. Yeah. like I don't feel like I feel insecure rather than like putting out a welcome mat where everybody feels comfortable showing up. >> Yeah. To be honest, I don't think I've thought about it like that. Um that's interesting and I feel like that that's obviously happening somewhere, but I think it's all good. Um I feel like that's a person thing. You know, if you pull up to a run club and they've created a atmosphere of of like being a super welcome and making sure people feel like they belong there, I don't think it really matters what you have on. >> Um, but if you've allowed yourself to be like more high school and you there's clicks in that thing and they make people >> inadvertently feel uncomfortable. >> All the run clubs, it can be that kind of like high school clickish sort of thing. there's a hierarchy and all that >> and that's just that just rely that's that the weight is on the shoulders of the run club leaders you know and and a lot of them know that and they work hard to make sure that that doesn't happen um as often as it probably could if there wasn't somebody like kind of policing that energy and that's just like that's I never start a run club like like I don't want to be responsible for all these different things um and I probably if I started a run club nobody would pull up anyway but >> yeah it it it seems like it's starting to come look more like what cycling has always been like cycling like I remember the first time I wanted to buy a bike and I went into a bike shop like I was so intimidated you know it's like it's scary and it's sort of like if you don't really know you know like you don't feel like you can even ask a question and there's these group rides and you know there's a certain sock height and like you got there all kinds of like unwritten rules and yeah are your are your >> are your shades on the inside or the outside of the which is right the outside outside. >> Yeah. Okay. Um Yeah. And it it's ridiculous, right? And I can see like running moving in that direction with all these clubs and that concerns me a little bit. >> So, >> while also appreciating that like you're taking your kit seriously in your presentation and there's a fashion thing to it and that makes it fun and interesting, albeit an expensive hobby. I think that part partially like the the coolness factor of it and like these new things, I think that's also why we're seeing such a boom because it does look cool. And I think for certain communities, the the a cool factor is an invitation. You know, like when I first started running, I went into a store and they were I was asking for the right shoes and they handed me two pairs of shoes that I thought were just horrendous. And I'm like, "All right, dang." This is a real I'm like, "Oh man, I left my wallet in the car cuz I'm too embarrassed to say that I didn't like them." So, I just walked out the store and just didn't go back into the store and I like ordered some shoes online that I thought looked better. >> And I think that like some of the the the the vibe for sure if you can make something look cool, people will want to want to like come to it sometimes. And >> that's an intrigue, too. Like, oh, I can I can run for my house. >> I don't have to wear that super stuff that everyone else is wearing. I can wear this. And >> like if I can get a fit off at the at the run club and I'm also healthy and meeting people that are doing the same thing, that's kind of cool, you know? like that's like not just cool, but like that's fun and that's like that's positive. So, I think it's just really just someone needs to police or watch like that that that thing that could make people not want to be there. And if and if that happens, that's also why there's other run clubs. Like you come to run club and you're like this is really fun and great, but there's like 10 of us that just don't feel like this is our thing. Then that's why you people have started other run clubs like down the street. >> Two more. This one is also related to the question of what is a real runner? Are you following Whiz Khalifa's running journey? [laughter] Because this is the best thing to happen to running in a long time. Like I am so in love like with what that guy is doing right now and the way that he's sharing it on social media. I think it's fantastic. >> Yeah, that's he's he's that's the next guest. It has to be. >> I'm trying. Anybody out there have a in with I DM'd him, but he doesn't follow me. He's not going to read my DM. >> I'll text him. I'll text him. >> Yeah, text him afterwards. >> Yeah. I don't have his number, but I'll text him. Um but I know I think it's really cool. cuz I feel like there's been it's funny as well because like you see like the running industry and all the brands are just like in the they're not even in the DMs. They're like in the comment sections like going crazy. >> Um I think he's been rocking the 247 represent lately. >> Yeah. Yeah, I saw that. I saw that. Well, they Yeah, they got to him. I think Choros got to him. Um but >> he's sharing his choros little like graphic on the You know, >> I think it's cool. Well, like I mean we saw it with so many different likeuh entertainers as well and we've seen like there's just there's there's money like to be had like in the health and wellness space especially in running. It's such a big boom right now and if if somebody like him can come in too and and bring his like what he's created and the energy that he's that he's put into like the hip-hop and uh hip-hop scene and that's great. Like because if he can make other people that absolutely would never put on some running shoes and go out on a trail because he's in trail and road, >> that's fire. I think that that's really cool. >> And he looks great. Like he has the natural skinny runner's physique and you know and he's just like I don't know what I'm doing but like he's so in love with it. His enthusiasm, you know, is like really infectious and he's so funny. >> Yeah. And he and it's cool. That's true though because >> he makes it look cool cuz he's having fun doing it and he doesn't look like he's trying to look cool. just to be cool. He's just doing his thing and he's with Khalifa so it works out. >> I think it's it's fun. It It's >> that to me was proof that people are saying like the running boom's going to >> That to me is proof that like it's just going to keep like growing. It's going to look different in 5 years or whatever, but I just feel like this this running [clears throat] thing is like super here to stay on a mainstream type of level. >> Sure. >> All right, last question. This is going to [clears throat] hurt a little bit. Might be a little confrontational. Okay, Tommy. Um, am I correct in believing that from this point forward, uh, for the foreseeable future at least, or perhaps forever, you are only going to use Lidwig Goransson's Odyssey score on every single reel that you post on Instagram. [laughter] >> So, yeah. Yes, that is true. >> I think you've done it like >> So, whenever I'm >> 10 times in a row now, and I'm like, this he's he's like he's on his groove with this. I'm in there, bro. I've seen the movie twice. >> Me, too. >> Um, I think I'm gonna try I'm gonna go for three. Nine hours of my life is is a good investment. >> I think you should just like this is my thing. I just always use this. I always use this score for every real I make >> every time like all the videos that you mentioned like are the ones that like I'm talking and I don't normally talk directly to the camera as much as like I might I've used to. I've always just been like running and using like just different music, but I feel like it's a funny it's a funny like score to like me talking about something silly like growing a mustache or like Do people want to see my toes? >> And you have this like epic, you know? >> Yeah. >> So, it's like I think I'm gonna I'll make I'll make a video and I'm gonna I'm gonna tag you >> and I'll be talking about, you know, the fact that like I just sat down with you and I'll use the score. Is that cool? >> Yeah. As long as I can like post a meme in response, >> please. >> All right. >> I'll I'll allow that. >> All right. Cool. This was great, man. Uh, super fun. Uh, I think we covered a lot. Uh, wow. We've been going a long time. Um, you're amazing. I'm I've got nothing but love for the journey that you're on and I'm always behind your back uh spitting wind in your sales, my friend. I appreciate that. >> You're a beautiful representation uh of >> being a real runner and uh I think the mission you're on is is is beautiful as well. Auditory. So, thanks for sharing with me today. >> Thank you. >> Um if people want to connect with you, Instagram obviously you got your podcast. Where do you want to point people? >> Um Instagram. Tommy runs on Instagram. Um, I'm sure you'll tag it, but T M I E R U N Z on Instagram. And then a big thing that like we're pushing a lot you'll see there as well is PR project. That's me, Gary, and Aaron. Uh, we we sit down every other week and talk about all the things running and then we do, uh, some fun stuff. Um, but that's super important to me cuz it's like it's an extension of me and but it's it's my friends and we we represent different cultures that aren't normally seen in that like podcast world and communicating for and about brands and about running culture. So, that's super important right now. Um, I think those are the two places to find it. Got a couple short and longer documentaries on on on YouTube. Check those out and and hit me up if you want a shirt, too, cuz that's a statement that I that I want to continue to make and hopefully it turns into a movement that means something. >> You can buy that on your website. >> On my website, tommyruns.com. Um, yeah. And I appreciate this opportunity to be to sit here with you and talk and and do it in a way that like that just feels like the timing is right for it. And I can't wait to see what's next. So, I'm just ask everybody to kind of tap in and as I announce things, if you rock with me or you're you're liking where I'm going, support in some way. >> Right on, man. Excellent. Have a great time at UTMB. >> I will. >> All right, dude. Till next time. Peace. >> Thanks. You say it still sweet. I know.