Freedom from Darkness: Teresa Yanaros’ Escape from the Occult

The greatest trick [music] the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. >> I didn't know this was a fight. That's why you're losing. Today we are beginning [music] either to domesticate the devil or else to deny him. He is most [music] powerful when he is denied. >> Welcome to the devil is in the details. The devil may be in the details but God is on the throne. Uh I am excited for today's show. our guest who uh we were talking before I said I've considered her a friend for I don't know a couple couple years at least we we've been in contact >> and uh you have a book coming out that I'm I'm really excited to get my hands on. So we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk a little bit about her story and the interesting position that she's in coming from what she's experienced helping people come out and be free of the same things that she experienced. So Treseos, a degreed journalist and devout Catholic, is dedicated to addressing the growing trend of disaffiliation with religion, where many turn to spiritual but not religious ideologies leading to the new age and occult practices. Earlier in her career, Yianos was a successful author and speaker, exploring modern American spiritualism and attempting to reconcile it with Christianity before experiencing a radical deliverance from a cult deception. Now, she coaches exnewagers returning to Christ and provides Catholics with the tools to resist cultural traps. Uh, excuse me, and forgive me for those who are listening. I'm still getting over a cold, so the brain fog, the brain fog is real. Uh, through her growing ministry of online resources, classes, YouTube, and her blog, Spirit Sanctified, Ineros helps Christians stand firm against deception. In her new book, Freedom from Darkness, she offers a practical road map that explains how people become ens snared in the occult and provides a path to freedom through repentance, conversion, and sacraments. Teresa, thank you for coming on the show. >> Thank you so much, Jordan, for having me. Looking forward to the conversation. >> So, is the book out now or is it I I was trying to figure out the the dates. Is it currently released? People can go out and buy it right now. You can purchase it for pre-sale right now and then it's released on January 21st. >> Okay? And folks can find that at Sophia Institute Press and I'm I'll also be posting a link to that uh in the description. Um so go and save that now. And as we talk through the show, you're going to realize why you actually want to buy it and dive into it and possibly buy a couple copies so you can give it to your friends who may be experiencing similar things or or uh who may be going a little bit off the path. So all that being said, uh let's let's get started kind of into your background. What places you as uh what I would consider an expert in this field due to what you've experienced. Can you can you start kind of where where where are you comfortable with where this all started? >> Yeah. So I was raised Roman Catholic in a very strong Roman Catholic family. There are two things about my historical upbringing that are important when it comes to what eventually got me twisted up in these deceptions. First things first, my father was stationed at RAF Woodbridge during the time of the Rendlessham Forest incident. For those of you who don't know, or perhaps you're not into conspiracy media or ufology, this is essentially UK's Roswell. So, it was a world-renowned UFO [clears throat] sighting. There was a government coverup. So I was born into a family that was already really into government conspiracy and believing that we were lied to through the media. And so this was already a part of my upbringing. Now on the Roman Catholic side, I was raised in a very devout Catholic family. And the church that we went to growing up, the priest actually experienced the wounds of stigmata. He was very close with my parents. There were statues of Mary in the church that began to cry at times. Hundreds of people witnessed this event. It was in Time magazine. And so I was raised in a family where I already saw the supernatural was very present in the world. I was I I didn't trust the government and the media. So you can see all these kind of things coming in together that would make me more susceptible to getting into the paranormal and the supernatural and how that was twisted. So when I went off into college, this is kind of where it all started to go downhill for me, which I think that's very similar in a lot of people's stories cuz when you go off to college, you're very uh open-minded, right? And you're looking at the rest of the world and you're coming into the world going like, "Okay, what is all this new information?" And I just so happened to go to a college that the professors were very anti-Christian. They were teaching things from the Bible, but it was really twisting scripture up. So, it started to get me really confused about what to believe and who to believe. And I think because of my background already in conspiracy media and worldviews, >> I was already destabilized here in college when this happened to me. I remember sitting down and with my parents and I had the Catholic Catechism and the Bible on one side of me and this stack of books on the other side of me for my professors and I was distraught and I'm like you guys got to throw me a bone here. I'm so confused. What do I do? What do I believe? You know, and in that time I really just leaned into the confusion. I got angry. I literally took the Catholic Catechism, threw it at the wall, and I swore off organized religion altogether. At that time in my life and I was about 17, I believed that organized religion was just a construct to control and manipulate people. And so that's at that point that's what I believed. I thought, you know, I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I believe in these things, but I just don't trust that there is an institution that has authority to actually come in and tell me how to live my life. And so that was what made me go off into the world. And eventually five six years later I got involved in I got into deep conspiracy and that drove me into the new age and the occult. >> Fascinating. Okay. This is really interesting. So you're I'm taking notes as you're talking because this is just as I mentioned to you, we were talking before the show and I I'm I'm aware of your story. I've listened to it. I I find it profoundly uh inspiring. Some of this stuff I may miss. It's been a while since I've I've viewed it, but what's interesting to me and and maybe you have some thoughts on this. What is is it is culture just that powerful that you experienced essentially a priest with the stigmata statues that were weeping and yet when and maybe and correct me if I'm kind of uh not articulating this correctly but when you entered into culture into more of a secular life that seemed to overpower these profound gifts because you know you hear stigmata and you think wow that's that's saint you know what I mean >> I think that miracles I would have believed then and even in the occult would believe this that miracles weren't owned by the church and that the church would come in to try to twist the uh the miracles to prove up what how they would say you would need to believe in Christ. So from a conspiracy worldview that's a very common belief is that yes miracles are real but the church doesn't own the narrative on the miracles. It's always this distrust of the narrative of the church. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. No, it does. That's really fascinating. Okay. So then you you went into conspiracy theories, which I will fully admit I enjoy a conspiracy theory here and there. >> Who doesn't? [laughter] >> Right. Right. There's some good ones out there uh that I do believe. I won't get into that on this show, [laughter] but but uh >> that'll be another show we can have. >> Yeah, there you go. We can talk just conspiracy theories. Um so conspiracy theories though leading to the occult. Was it was it simply that struggle with the narrative? You know, I hate to sound so tripe, but quote unquote the man controlling different things, whoever that may be. Was that the was that the bridge that you had to cross or was there something a little bit more in there that went from okay yeah I have a general distrust which you know test all spirits there's there's healthy levels to to that leading to outright you know a cult that more problematic aspect what was that bridge that or was it just that simple >> when you get into conspiracy media what you will find is that there are very strong links to the occult in conspiracy media in general. So, it's such an easy I call it a hop, skip, and a jump because there's so much overlap between an occult worldview and the beliefs and practices in the occult and conspiracy worldviews. There's a very strongly I'm actually writing an academic paper on this. And so, for me, and I can give you the example in my story, already having that distrust of authority is step one. And you find this across the board in the hundreds of people that I've worked with across the world. This is a very common common thread. So it already softens that world view to be susceptible to leaning into the unknown and being drawn into seeking control and manipulation outside of the church. So you step out of the authority of the church and you go, well, what is authority? So you start to get confused about authority for me. The authority of the Bible started to get tossed up in question. Okay, what do I who made the B? All those questions about the Bible and the authority of the Bible started to come up for me. >> And my father, he had divorced my mom, started dating this woman who was a past life regressionist. And for those of you who don't know, it's basically a person who puts another person into a meditative state, an altered state of consciousness, and quote unquote regresses them, walks them in that state into a quote unquote past life so that they can work through trauma. And so they believe that reincarnation is real and that you can access past lives through meditation. So my father gave me this book called Journey of Souls by Michael Newton. And I started to read this book and it started to really confuse me cuz I'm like how can you believe in reincarnation and believe in Jesus? And this really started to I'm like this is just really weird, right? The more I started to read continue to read this book, uh my significant other at the time, he was like, "Well, I'm a scientist. let's just try it. And I'm like, whoa, even even though I was not a practicing Catholic at the time and I was more agnostic, I knew, okay, that's a horrible idea. I knew from my upbringing, like this is that's bad news bears. You do not want to go and put yourself into a meditative state and just open your mind up to anything. That sounds to me like you're just inviting demons, right? And so he wants to do it anyway. So he goes on YouTube and he pulls up a past life meditation on YouTube and he actually goes into a meditative state and he has this whole vision and then comes out of it fully believing that reincarnation is real because of what he experienced. Now looking back I know that was a demon playing with him to confuse him and distract him from the truth to pull him into the delusion but also to do something really sinister. This is to snap a person. I call it a cult snapping in the book. It snaps a person through demonic signs and wonders into really getting interested in the occult. And this is a core factor in what I teach as people get into the occult and into the new age because something will happen. And I always say beware of what works because we live on this planet going to second Thessalonians. We live in this planet where demonic signs and wonders, they are real. And Satan has an element of power that he will come in and try to delude and distract and get us away from the truth that is Christ. And I watched it happen right before my eyes. And I tell you that was when a demonic portal or whatever opened up in my house. There were all kinds of things that started to go weird. I started to have spontaneous out-of- body experiences. I started to experience really lucid dreams and things that the occult teaches. And so when I would have these experiences that I know now are demonic, I would go and research them on the internet trying to understand what was happening to me. And there was a litany of education online from these people that all have had similar experiences. And they have an answer for you. It's not the truth, but it leads you deeper into the new age, into the occult, and you start to go, well, what is this? And because of my curious nature as a journalist, I thought, well, I need to research this deeper. There it was. There was my pride thinking I can go deeper and try to understand what this is without getting in trouble spiritually. I was wrong. I ended up demonically possessed because of what I was getting into. I didn't know that then. I didn't know what was going to happen. All I thought was, "Oh, my intentions are good. I just want to understand what these things are." And so, I started to write my first book. This was a long time ago now. This is back in 2014. I started to write a book trying to reconcile these things like reincarnation, tarot cards, channeling, altered states of consciousness, all those things with Catholicism. That was my intention. Where's the line here? What's the difference between witchcraft and Catholicism? And so, I'm sussing all this out. Meanwhile, my pride is just leading me deeper and deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole. >> Wow. So, this all started essentially from a YouTube video. >> It all started from a book that my father gave me. >> Wow. >> Because Yeah. It was this book on reincarnation. And it's very common when I talk to people about what got them into it. A lot of times it's some kind of media like you're saying like a YouTube video or a book or someone that they respect getting them into these things. And there's just that softening. If there's just there's always an element of curiosity. I always say it starts with curiosity, right? And then when a person leans in, they'll see something that works and then it draws them even deeper. But I will say this, I've also worked with people coming out of the occult that had very severe spiritual issues that would say, "No, no, Teresa, nothing ever worked for me." I'm like, "Okay, well, why did you do it for 20 years?" >> Right. >> Right. So, people will deny their culpability in it in any way, shape, or form that they can. But when you get in the weeds on someone's story, and this is how it get how I get into like helping people out of it, getting into the weeds on their story and and helping them to see those moments that cause their worldview to deepen toward that delusion and they can start to detangle and go, "Okay, well, maybe that's not actually what I should have believed." There's always a a a false belief attached to that occurrence that happens. And when people can start to detangle those and go, "Maybe that's not exactly what happened. Maybe that was a demon. Maybe that was just my own pride. And they can start to unpack why they started to believe what they were believing. And I always say it comes down to one [clears throat] word, worldview. Worldview is what leads people deeper. And that's what takes time to untangle so that people can effectively get out and stand firm against it. >> This is fascinating. It it's it's uh confirming so much of what I've I've kind of found in my own research and and talking to different people and some of the stuff we've done with exorcist. As you know, when when someone goes through an exorcist, one of the primary things that the the exorcist priest is doing is trying to find, you know, the quote unquote doorway where the demonic came in. And that is, you know, in in that case, it's generally an action, right? What is what rights did you give to the demons in which they were able to come into you? Essentially, what you're doing is very similar, at least what it sounds like to me, which is is helping people understand on maybe a more intellectual and heart level, uh, which we've talked about this before, I think a couple years ago. Um, helping them understand, okay, you had this belief, you had this worldview, you had whatever it was, you were searching for something, and searching isn't necessarily bad. You just started looking in the wrong place. And when you wherever you were looking, the demon said, "Okay, I got something for you. I I got an answer for you. >> Yeah. I So, I've worked with exorcists for a couple of years. And so, I've walked with people as they're coming out of these belief systems. Some of them coming out of possession, obsession, those sorts of things, working in tandem with the priests. And this is why I launched my ministry really because there's so much spiritual healing and direction that needs to occur for a person to really work through these things. It's a lot of layers. And while there are historical factors that precede a person getting involved in these things, there are also usually significant amounts of trauma. I find that with the majority of the women that I work with, there is sexual trauma in childhood. It's very common. Um I would say probably 95% of the women that I work with were sexually abused as children. And so what you find and my ministry is a ministry of compassion. I love these people. I love I have a whole heart for them. I I understand deeply why these people are in that delusion. I was in it myself. They're seeking some form of control over their lives when they didn't feel like they had it. I was sexually abused as a child. And so it's like when you start to unpack the reality of the hurt that these people have, they're looking wherever they think they can look to the world because that's the lie. And then when they start to actually find Jesus in a new way, and for me that's that's what happened when I started to get freed. You know, I know we haven't really gotten to that part of the story yet, but just as a teaser, when I really started to walk with Jesus and and surrender to his authority and really trying to understand his healing and his person, that was when it unlocked for me and I could let go of that burden that I was carrying, thinking that I could carry it. It's not a burden that we can carry. We can't heal ourselves. It's a lie. >> Yeah. Yeah, you're I I'd love to go deeper into this because this is something that you and I both hold very close to our hearts is helping the person on that heart level break free because there's there's a lot of good out there and and I guess just in my experience it doesn't necessarily address that heart issue and it may maybe you've experienced some different things but the idea or the necessity of meeting someone where they're at and looking at them and saying, "Yeah, you may have done bad things, but you're not a bad person." You know, we're not we're not uh justifying the sin, but we we could say, "I understand why you did that. That makes total sense." And that alone seems very freeing for people. You know what I mean? And yeah, go ahead. >> It's the community. I love what you're saying here. It's the community aspect. And this is the thing about the church that God created, that he gave us. He's drawing us into community in the body of Christ in the way that he ordained for us. and the occult and the new age. It's so about the self. It's it's the devil trying to isolate and imprison >> and keep everyone apart from each other. That's the that's the big lie, right? And when you come on the other side of that and people start to open their hearts to, oh wait, okay, I don't have to isolate and protect myself from this dangerous, scary world that has abused me. I can slowly but surely open my heart to the people around me that actually do love me and care for me. You see what I'm saying? And there's there's a shift that happens and it takes time. But the community aspect is so beautiful when I started to bring groups of people together and help them through uh coming out of [clears throat] the occult in the new age and reform those worldviews and anchor to Jesus as a group. What was so beautiful was that you would see when they would tell their stories, they would get their testimonies together and tell their stories. There was that level of aha, that aha moment of watching just how the enemy works in similar ways in people's lives and you look at it and you go, "Huh?" But then what you see in your own story is how God was with you the whole time. >> Yes. Yes. And that's where the true healing starts to open up where you're like, "Okay, I wasn't abandoned. [clears throat] It's that divine abandonment, that feeling of divine abandonment." And people lash out in so many ways against the world and themselves because they feel abandoned. And then whenever they are able to walk with other people, this is the the beautiful community aspect where it's like we're not alone. We're called into community. We can walk together because God creates us for community. And and that's part of the healing, too. It doesn't happen in a seieve. >> Yeah. Yeah. I love this. I love this. So, let me ask you this and we'll get back to your story just because it's I I don't want to lose this question for those I I'm shocked but not shocked at the same time that the I think you said like 98% of uh the reason why people kind of get into the occult is some sort of trauma generally. Well, we'll just say trauma in general, right? Um, if if there's someone out there who is listening to this, and I guarantee you that there is, if they know someone who has had that kind of trauma, what kind of suggestions could you give to them to kind of help bring that person into the fold to build that? Maybe it's just building community. Does that does this question kind of make sense where I'm going? >> Yeah, and I agree with you. Building community is the answer to that because what I find in a and and what I was saying was that the majority of women that I work with coming out of the occult, I would say about 95 98% of them have had some form of sexual abuse in their childhood. And there are usually a litany of factors that lead a person into the occult, which I have outlined in depth and exhaustion in my book. But the the thread of the sexual abuse, it's like what I see happen is that they're not getting the help that they need because when it comes to sexual abuse, there is a there there's a fear around it when that happens. And so women feel like they can't tell anyone. And often times if they do tell someone, they're gas lit and they're told that they're lying. And so there there's a very scary climate in the world around sexual abuse, unfortunately. And so, you know, talking to someone that you trust is really important. >> And I know that that's hard. But finding a person that you really truly trust. And if that doesn't work, don't retreat into yourself and isolate. Find somebody else. Keep going until you find someone that's going to listen to you. And I think that that advice there, I wish someone had told me that. And I wish that I could go back in time and tell the other women that because it's a thread in the story that's pretty darn consistent. >> Yeah. Well, and I can tell you from, you know, you generally work with women. I generally work with men and I can tell you even the men that I deal with who have suffered that same thing. Just the fact of of them being able to tell their story to someone who is trustworthy, it is huge. I mean, it's you can almost see a weight lift off them as they're telling that story. And I I've always assumed and I feel like you're kind of confirming it for me that them being able to do that on its own is a really good uh protective measure from keeping them going into something that may be more problematic. >> Yeah. So, what I do when I work with people, I have a whole uh process that they go through. Part of that process is testimony, but it's not the first part. It's one of the final parts because when a person is able to well, first they need to go into theological grounding. Well, usually when a person's coming out of the occult, they have so many questions and they're they're all over the place. And I say, "We're going to take those questions. We're going to put them in a little treasure chest. We're going to put them up on the [laughter] shelf. We're not we're not going to destroy those questions. I promise we will come back to them." But when people start to get theologically grounded, the nature of the questions change. And so as as you start to equip them with theological grounding and get them into the the parts of the catechism that I love to get people into when they're coming out of the occult, then you can start to lay the groundwork. And then you start to lay out your story. Then you go through a process that I created called dismantling strongholds where they actually take their story and look at those moments that snapped them into the occult. And this this can include uh what I call anchors, worldly anchors or occult anchors. those stories, those little mini stories, anecdotes inside their story that were drawing them deeper into that world view. And then also bringing in those associated traumas because usually you're going to have a, you know, a list of anywhere from one to five major traumas with a person coming out of the occult that were stacked. Whether it be, you know, traumas with parents, uh, neglect, abuse, uh, those sorts of things, rape, those are big issues that people go through that they're seeking to try to heal from. So they go and they seek these occult modalities because they don't trust any sort of form of authority because they're scared because those authorities in their lives were the ones that abused them. And so they're scared to go into any other construct of authority. So they look to themselves as an authority. And that's exactly where the enemy wants a person because they're vulnerable. >> Right. Right. And and it it's worth stating and and I think this is exactly what you and I talked about on your show a couple years ago, but for those who are listening to this, recognize that the people who are I I would say all of them. I could be very wrong, but I would say all of them. The people who are involved in the occult are wounded. They're searching for something because they're wounded. And to look on them with disdain or to write them off or any of those things is I'll say uncristlike. You know, it is uncomfortable because it we recognize where we're at. We recognize, oh, there's demons over there and that can be a scary thing for some people, but it's demons attached to wounds and that is a that is a child. And it's actually making me emotional thinking about it. That person is a child who has suffered and been abused and who has demons that are trying to drag them away. and they're standing in front of you and how do you respond? You know, >> I really appreciate you bringing that thread up because I get really frustrated when Christians want to th I say they have a a scarlet letter, right? People get so afraid and have disdain is a good word for it. But we have to have compassion and there are so many different ways to do that. I want to tell a story. So, I love electronic music. I went to an electronic show in Dallas and I went outside and there were people on the balcony and there was this group of girls who were probably maybe between 18 and 21 and they were dressed up with their uh upside down the pentagram and all the satanic kind of clothing. I walked right over to them. I could have gone and stood with my friends. I could have gone anywhere. But I walked right over to this group of girls and I was friendly and I found the one object on them that didn't have a pentagram and I said, "I like your earrings or whatever it was." And I stood there and I talked with them for about half an hour and we were just talking about all different kinds of things. I was building rapport. I was showing them compassion and you could see on them like what you're talking about. You could see the hurt, the confusion on them. There's also an element of the materialism in Satanism that's been so normalized in society now. you can buy this kind of stuff and you can flaunt it and wear it, right? So, there's that uh rebellious kind of side where they probably have no idea what they're wearing. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. That doesn't matter. But they're they're leaning into that, right? And I stood there and talked with them for about half an hour, not saying anything about Jesus, not judging them, just loving them, loving on them. And before I walked away, they said, "Oh, you're so much fun to talk to. Can I get your Instagram?" >> And so I give them my Instagram. And I walk away. They all follow me on Instagram. Now, what's beautiful about that story is that when they saw my Instagram, they see that all I do is talk about spiritual warfare and coming against the occult, coming against the new age, coming against witchcraft, showing people a better way. And I never judge them. And so that I'm hoping that that was that moment where, oh, okay, this is cool. There are Christians out there that are loving people, right? That's way more important than someone going up and saying, oh, you got a pentagram, blah, blah, blah. And then you've lost. you've completely lost. And that's not what we're called to do. We're called to love on these people a lot. I mean, these young ones, they're getting tripped up. I mean, Tik Tok, there's a hasht a hashtag uh witch talk that has billions billions of views. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, and what you're talking about is breaking bread with people, which is exactly what Jesus did. He sat down with them where they were at. He broke bread. He communicated with them. He it wasn't hey sit down and you know he he pulls out the whip or whatever. He loved them and that's what converted people was his love you know and and then they have to question and say okay I like what he has something I don't have that how do I get that you know because of that that journey of love so I love that example it's >> well and planting seeds is important because people when they're stuck in whatever worldview they're in there's not really much you can do to attack it or to break that down but if you plant those seeds and you're present then when a person has that moment where they're going through that worldview destabiliz destabilization they're going to be more inclined to come to you because you've set that foundation. >> I love this. This is this is uh so edifying. So, back to your story though, cuz we I I derailed it a little bit, [laughter] but for good reason. We've we let the Holy Spirit lead these things. So, uh where we left off though, you were experiencing some pretty horrific things. Uh very lucid dreams. Uh you you had kind of me alluded to there was things in your house. What uh did that kind of how what effect what effect did that have on you? Because eventually you went kind of deeper into the occult. Was did it scare you initially? You know, you mentioned you have this desire to search for answers. Was it simply that where you thought, okay, this is happening. I want to figure out what it is and I'm going to go, you know, find find whatever makes the most sense and then follow that path. >> It's a great question. So, something that's coming up for me on how to describe this and other people that have been in the occult will know what I'm talking about. Um, there's this TV show, I can't remember the name of it, but it's about vampires, and it shows how the vampire will sort of put this um there's a certain word they call, I think it's like a a glamour or something, people listening that have seen this True Blood. It's the show True Blood. And they talk about how the vampire will kind of uh put them in a trance and make them feel very like light and weightless and and flowery and and light, right? [clears throat] And this is what the occult does. There's a there's like a shimmer to it. I call it the shiny veneer. And so what happens and it's actually a trauma. These events that happen, these demonic signs and wonders, they're actually traumatic. And when a person comes out of the occult and they go return back to those moments, they're no longer that shimmer. They're terrifying. They're like, "Oh my gosh, that was a demon. I didn't know it." Right? So, there's that draw, that draw in because you're going, "What is this? It seems it's otherworldly. It's fascinating." I would use the word fascinating. People come become fascinated. When you go on to any of these shows, these movies that are all about the paranormal, they're they're created, they're designed to fascinate, to draw a person in, to make them focus on this shiny veneer, on this false light. >> And that's what happened with me. So, with the the very vivid dreams where I was having out of body experiences where I'm detaching from my body and I'm going into different parts of the house and I'm seeing things and then returning to my body and then waking up and then walking to that part of the house and seeing something that I'd never seen before. I'm going, "What's happening? What is this?" And then I go online and it's like, "Oh, yes, this can happen. It's called astral projection." And you can actually do it on purpose. And so then you start to learn about altered states of consciousness. you start to then learn about channeling information, right? So, what happened next for me is that I got into tarot cards. And so, when I got into tarot cards, within the very first week of getting into tarot cards, this these were the very first signs for me of demonic possession. Didn't know it then, know it now, but I was starting to lose time. I would read the tarot cards and then I would wake up not remembering falling asleep with the tarot cards around me. And so, I was already starting to lose time. I would start to read tarot cards for people which is a double level of idolatry because tarot cards are idols and then when you read for another person you become that person's idol there's now double intermediary between you and God call this anti- prayer and so when I started reading for other people and I start channeling and getting these visions and insights demonic and then passing those things on things that I could have not possibly known right that's knowing the unknowable that's a that's a mark of demonic possession and sharing that information with other people and then they're freaked out. There was a guy who had never spoken those words to anyone ever and I'm just saying the these things to him. He got up and he ran out of the room and I never saw him again. >> So the tarot cards were that was a huge opening to the demonic in my life and then it got worse and worse. I started to channel and I started to receive all kinds of information from all kinds of demons that would name themselves. And I started to write all of this down. And again, there's that pride element. That's that curiosity of, well, why am I getting this information? What is this? What is this? Right? It got me into studying Freemasonry because the demons were talking about things that were associated with Freemasonry. Never using the word Freemasonry, but it got me involved even deeper in ritualistic magic and witchcraft. See how it just goes deeper and deeper and deeper. And before I knew it, I had demonic attachments that were getting scary. Started to get scary because the things that play nice at first, that glimmer, the glamour I was talking about, you start to really feel that as trauma. And I remember back even being in the occult giving talks about this and people would say, "Oh, it's so cool, Teresa, that you have these experiences." And I would tell them, "No, it's actually traumatic." >> So even back then, I was saying, "This is traumatic. this is not fun for me. I don't understand why this is happening to me. And everybody on the stage just thought it was so cool >> because I was contacted by aliens or some goddess or whatever they pretend to be. And so as I was even going through it myself, I was having trouble sleeping. I was really confused. I was isolated. I And I remember there were times where I would be forced into channeling. Right? This is demonic possession. This is another word for demonic possession. But the demons would force me into what I thought was an altered state of consciousness, right? That's what I would have called it back then. But it was actually being forced into states of possession. >> And so >> there was a point where the cracks began to show for me. So I was on the radio at the time. I I had a radio show and I was on other radio shows and these were all people that were into ufology and occultism and conspiracy media. That was the arena that I was functioning in and I was starting to get a little bit famous. I was getting picked up on TV shows and things like that. And I was on this radio show and someone was telling about uh alien abduction and I said, "Well, doesn't that sound evil? Doesn't that sound like it's going against their free will?" Because we have free will as humans and if if an alien's going to abduct you like that like that alien would be evil, right? And I say this on the radio and everyone was very uncomfortable [laughter] immediately made everyone really uncom because I used the eword and that was a no no with these circles [laughter] and I didn't realize that I had stepped into you know a trap here and so it they changed the subject really quick. They went to commercial break. They were like, "Okay, we're not going to talk about that. Like, let's pivot the conversation." And I was like, "What just happened?" And so when the radio show was over, I start making some phone calls because, you know, I'm a researcher. I have to understand. And so I'm like asking people, I'm like, "Do you believe in evil?" And I was getting all of these answers that I was like, "Oh my gosh, these people don't believe in objective truth. They don't believe in like certain as it was just like moral relativism and just like it was blowing my mind. And I'm like, how did I not think to ask these questions until now? You know, it was then that I started to realize like, okay, this is bad. Then I had a thought in my head. And the thought was, what if this is all evil? And it was that moment that all these things that were manifesting as other things suddenly turned into demons and started manifesting physically in my room and attacking me and bruising my body. >> And it was then and only then I went over and grabbed my Bible first time in years and I curled up in the fetal position on my bed and the Lord started opening up the scripture to my eyes. >> Wow. Wow. Well, you you segueed it perfectly because I was going to ask when when did this start, you know? Well, let me back up. It's fascinating to me [clears throat] that because you and I have similar stories. I wasn't involved in the occult, but I definitely had um some some of my own demons that I had to deal with. Uh but for myself and what sounds like you experienced as well, there was still a bit of mental clarity. I mean, you talked about moral relativism. you recognize that people were kind of relativists and I'm sure many people listening to this are like well yeah it's an easy concept to understand but you've talked to probably tens of thousands of people same for me it's not a it's not a easy concept for most people right so what that makes me believe is that in my own experience I had this clarity of I can think logically to an extent sounds like you had the same what what I'm trying to get at is do you believe because I've never thought about this before that there's this certain we know that sin darkens the intellect. Do you believe that there is a certain aspect of the demonic that allows that intellect to have a little bit of light so that we trick ourselves into thinking well I can think logically. I know where moral relativism is. So surely what I'm doing isn't wrong. Does that make sense? >> I I see what you're saying. I think that the way I would sort of put it would be like God exercising his sovereignty over us even in our darkness. Like there's that light we have in B cuz you reverted. You have you went through a reversion too, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. So it's like we have that that light that life that um inheritance in us through baptism and we are we have the Holy Spirit with us and there are glimpses that you get that that God will come and and splash that sovereignty on you even in your darkness. And and it's those moments really that I think when people start to get out and start to make sense of uh whatever it is, whether it be the occult or whatever their darkness is, right? They can start to look at those moments of clar those things that they're like, "Okay, God was shining his light on me here." Cuz you know, we have our will, we have reason, but we're also like there are parts of us, I think, that are are yielded because we're seeking. It's the part inside of us that is truly seeking God. even in our darkness, we are created to seek him. >> And so that's that's how I would put it. And I I do agree with you though that the demons definitely try to twist and morph and go, well, okay, like and I call it the blend. There's a whole section in my book about this, but like synretatism, right, where where demons want you to get in that gray area and think like, oh, it's okay to do this and that and this and that as long as you do this and that and this and that. It's that that blending it all up. And so, yeah, I I think that there's definitely an element where demons will try to muddy those waters and give you th go, you know, yeah, you've got this bone. That's good. You know, like the people that would say that they're Christian, but they're actually full-blown occult occultists, >> right? >> That's like it's like you got to talk about that and you got to go deeper into that. Like, okay, why are they calling themselves a Christian then? That could also be a prideful thing where they're they're pretending like and this I work with a lot of people that do this and I did a little bit of that until I went full full-blown into the occult where I went you know what I don't think I'm Christian anymore. I actually had a period of time where I I had like taken that step. I had taken that step into the delusion but it was it was only for maybe 6 months of the the deepest darkest part of that and then the Lord saved me out of it. >> Yeah, I think you are I I totally agree with everything you said. But I think you articulated it perfectly. It's it's probably a grace come stemming from baptism. God saying, "No, you're mine. You're I'm going to let this happen because you need to come to me, but you're mine, you know." So that's awesome. Okay. >> So, you know, talking about people who because I've seen a lot of this as well and and I've just been at my wits end on whether or not it's worth addressing or or even how to it is worth addressing, but how to address it in charity and love. But there is a lot of people who uh who claim that they're Catholic but they're also witches or they're Catholic but they can practism. That's one group of people. There's other groups of people the spiritual not religious who essentially believe that because their intentions are pure and you kind of touched on this. Uh they believe that they will be protected from dark forces because it's like oh I'm just doing the right thing right. How do you navigate conversations with those people? because I think that's probably a really common on the spectrum of people's journeys in this area. I feel like that while my intentions pure, I'm not trying to get possessed by playing with the Ouija board. You know, that's not my intention. What kind of conversations do you have with those people? >> Intentions don't matter. >> Period. >> Yeah, [laughter] >> it's that simple. Like my intentions were it's like define good intentions like you know talk to anyone. I'll give a list of my friends that have been demonically possessed and they will all be like, "That's cute." Let me tell a story. I have a friend and she uh was raised Christian. She has a significant amount of trauma in her past and then she went off into the world, became very successful, and then she was having some health problems. And so, she went on Amazon and she got a pendulum. And so, she was going to use this pendulum. For those of you who don't know what a pendulum is, it's basically like a chain with a crystal dangling from the bottom of the chain. And people will use it for different things in oultism. She purchased this pendulum because she was having a knee problem and she wanted to try to find some healing to channel through this pendulum. And so she starts to look up how to use the pendulum online. She starts to dangle it over her knee and she starts to try to evoke some sort of healing through the pendulum. Now, I'm going to define witchcraft. If there's any form of invocation or evocation with the intent to manipulate or control, you're doing witchcraft. Okay? So, if you're trying to invoke or call something in, evoke or call something forth, be really careful. E witchcraft. Okay. So, she goes and she starts using the pendulum. Within 3 days, she is possessed. Full-blown possessed. >> Wow. >> Can't get the demons out of her head. She she goes to work and they're throwing her out of her chair. She is pretty high up in this company. She's she's trying to give a talk and and she's got her whiteboard and everything and her voice starts to change and people are totally freaked out. She loses her job. Now she's freaking out. So So yeah, her intentions were good, right? She wanted to heal. Like it doesn't matter what your intentions are when you go and you're doing witchcraft. Doesn't matter because you're doing witchcraft. It is a violation of the first commandment by default. And you are stealing. You're attempting to steal from God as though he's some sort of vending machine. And you're trying to go and harness seeking occult power or wisdom or knowledge or healing. And it's it's those powers are from the devil. So it doesn't matter what that intention is. And usually the intention is comfort, knowledge, power, or healing. It's usually those four things. H. >> But yeah, 36 36% of Catholics, this is a Pew study from uh 2021, 36% of Catholics believe it's okay to practice more than one religion at a time. [laughter] >> We combine that with the 70% who don't believe in the real presence of the Eucharist. And we're uh God have mercy on us. >> That's another [snorts] one I like to bring up. It's like Yeah. >> Yeah. So, okay, this is good. I don't want to give away all the stories. I really want people to go out and purchase the book. I know I'm adding >> plenty of stories. We've got lots of test there's multiple testimonies inside of the the book. Um, two of the women that I've worked with that are now my two best friends, Noel and Jamie, have told their testimonies in the book. So, it's it's amazing. Uh, their stories are incredible. Noel's from Germany, Jaime's from Texas. Um, so we've got their stories in it. We've got my stories in it. But the book isn't just about stories. The book is actually a road map. Because this is the thing. When people come out of the occult, they are treated as lepers in the churches. People don't know how to deal with them. They're like, "Well, you have Jesus now. Just move on with your life." It's not that simple. And so, I want to teach people that it's a lot that gets people into the occult. How does Satan actually draw people into demonic possession? Okay. What does that stage look like? And I have five steps in and then five steps out. So when a person gives their life to Christ, what does it look like for them coming out of the occult? And with all the people that I've worked with, I I've noticed a pattern. And of course, everyone's story is different, but I've noticed a pattern in what it looks like. And so that's what you learn when you read this book. >> I love this. Okay, so the book, well, I'm going to plug the book again just for people who maybe they're tuning in for the first time. Freedom from Darkness, Sophia Institute Press. But well, let's talk about now. you were curled up in the floor because now we're talking about healing others, but you had a journey where you were curled up on the floor reading the scripture. Jesus was was coming to you, helping to set you free. What was that path out? What did that look like for you? >> So, when I was curled up in the fetal position in my bed, I felt completely alone. At that moment, I realized my sin. That was the step one. It was like it came crashing down on me. I saw my actions for what they were and they were leading me away from God. I felt like I was in outer space and I called out into the room, "God, save me." And the presence of God immediately entered my room and pushed all the demons out >> and filled me. And it was it was a few uh scriptures that it was like I had opened up the Bible and it was like light was pouring out of the Bible that was pushing these strongholds out of my mind and filling me with light. And God started to show me what to do. And he I remember he said be still and know. That was before I even knew that was in the Bible. But he told me, "Be still and know. Be still and know." He kept saying that to me. And he said, "I'm fighting your battles." And I started to he started to show me what to threw away thousands of dollars worth of oult items. I burned my tarot business to the ground. I I actually ended up going on uh YouTube live and telling people how sorry I was for misleading them. I had thousands of followers and I was like, "This is evil. This is bad. I am so sorry." I I mean I I was in the fetal position crying for like weeks cuz I felt so awful as I was coming to the realization of what I had done. >> And during that stream, that live stream where I was like I had the Bible. like this is why these things are evil. There were people that emailed me after the stream and they were like when you started to talk about tarot Teresa everything like they got a headache and they couldn't hear what I was saying. And you can actually the video is live on my YouTube channel. You can go and find that video and you can go to the point where I start talking about tarot and you can you can hear the audio start to crackle for the whole time that I'm like coming against tarot and then it it clears up. And people were saying that during that time they were getting really bad headaches. And so the demons were interfering with my live stream because they didn't want me talking about the evils of tarot to the the followership that I had. And so after this live stream, I I completely took my YouTube channel down. I just closed everything down, privatized everything. I ended up there's a whole other aspect of the story that we haven't talked about, but I had to when I left the oult, I had to I realized I was in a cult. So leaving the cult, which I didn't realize was a cult until I left it. Uh there was stalking there. Things got really scary for me. So I ended up actually going into hiding. I had I moved away and I uh went into hiding for about a year. I was not talking to really anybody, maybe two people. Um and during that time, I was spending that time with Christians who were helping me get grounded in scripture and get freed of the demonic. And that was really when Jesus started to work on me. And I actually had an experience where I felt my heart being taken out and installed with a heart of flesh. And I felt thousands of pounds of sin lift off of me. And I I experienced every aspect of creation crying out in worship of Jesus. And ever since that moment, it was like I went from seeing in black and white to like full-blown color. And I cry [clears throat] all the time now. Like my heart for intercessory prayer has like it's like I'm praying and interceding and and everything started to really come alive for me. I ended up going to seminary for a little bit after coming back to Texas where I live. I came back home. I ended up in a seminary which is actually a Southern Baptist seminary. And I know that the Lord called me into it because of the circumstances around it. But it was interesting because I went there for for a little bit and it was maybe a couple years in. I remember raising my hand in one of the classes and asking like, "Okay, well, what do you guys believe about transubstantiation then and it was like you could hear a pin drop and it got really uncomfortable. The teacher started yelling and I was like, "What just happened?" And so I realized like, "Oh no, they don't understand Catholic theology. They don't understand the sacraments." And that broke my heart cuz I knew that I had to stop going to that seminary. And so like I I ended up going into the Anglican church and learning about the Anglican side. I I did that for a while, but it was actually when I landed on the concept of authority. I'm tying a bow. I landed on the concept of authority. And when I started to actually really grasp papal authority, everything shifted for me. And I was like, whoa. Okay. This is the last ding ding ding ding that I needed because I did my full circle back to the Roman Catholic Church. I was already teaching Roman Catholic theology to the people coming out of the occult. So I was when I was still an Anglican, not back in Roman Catholic land yet as I call it. I was teaching people Catholic theology. They were going through then RCIA and then becoming Catholic and I was still in Anglican land. And then I'm like, "Oh yeah, I I can't I can't be here anymore." Like I had because of that that last little kachink into the the world view for me. It was like I I started Roman Catholic and I I say I took the scenic route back home, but it was like all those different aspects of that journey and that the theological searching and grounding for me landed me back where now my ministry is it feels more robust because I can speak to people outside of Catholic land because I've been there and and it just makes a lot more sense for me now and I am very very happy where I'm that now. And I I feel like as soon as the Lord brought me back home to the Roman Catholic Church, that was when everything really started to blossom with the book and everything because I had already spent about six years at that point going through my own journey and then turning around and starting to help other people at a certain point when the Lord called me into it. And so now it's like with the book coming out, it's been about six years of that transformation that has been pumped into this one piece of material. >> You know, it's funny. I still vividly remember the day that you sent I don't know why [clears throat] you thought you wanted to put me on the email. I'm glad you did. You know I got that email. It was like I'm coming back to the church and I'm bringing some friends. I was like yeah I think I literally emoted in my office. I was like praise God. Like I was so pumped. >> So yeah. Amazing. Amazing. So this is this is probably one of my favorite interviews I've ever done. Uh you continue to be one of my favorite people out there who especially in this space. I I highly highly I highly recommend people go out Sophia Institute Press, buy her book, Freedom from Darkness, and get a get another copy and give it to your priest because uh one of the topics we cover in the show is that the spiritual warfare aspect, this battle that we're in that we know is true from scripture is just not taught the way it should be taught. And so we have a lot of people who are in leadership who are good people. I'm not saying anything bad about them, but who could use help understanding, especially from Teresa's perspective, what folks are going through and how in a pastoral position especially, they can help lead somebody with that charity and with that deeper understanding to the truth of the faith. So, thank you again. This was phenomenal and uh we'll have to have you on another time. >> Thank you. And I really appreciate you bringing that up about the priests because there is equipping that needs to happen because for people that haven't been through it, there's so much of the nomenclature that gets lost. And so that is part of my mission too is to to help the body of Christ to help clergy and ley people who have never even gone through it at all, but to be able to understand it so that they can also minister to people. >> Amazing. All right. Well, like I said, Freedom from Darkness, Sophia Institute Institute Press. go grab it. It'll be uh Christmas is coming, so be some great Christmas gifts. And with that, uh Romans 16:20. I should have had this pulled up and I should have it memorized by now. Probably going to have to edit out my own goofiness. Hold, please. Romans 16:20. The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. Amen. Amen.