Frank Lampard Finally Speaks Out About What REALLY Happened At Chelsea | E264

When you get that call, had you known the context, the behind the scenes, that unhealthy culture, honestly, do you think you would have made a different decision? I think I I think I can say this. Frank Lampard! Lampard! Lampard has found the net! Premier League icon, Chelsea legend! I read that your dad was the biggest influence on your career, and then I read a separate quote saying that sometimes I hated him. You know, my dad was a tough man, pushed me very hard on the football front, and it got probably a bit too much. But the fear of failure was a huge driving force that made me what I was and gave me the career I got in the end. Chelsea fans will be listening to this because they want to get your opinion on what's just happened, because since you've left, we've not really heard from you. I came back here because this was an opportunity to come to Chelsea, a club close to my heart, but I could see in training the level wasn't enough, the size of the squad, with players that will test you and question you, questioning you. Mhm. And then Chelsea spent more money than anyone's ever spent in a window. It seemed like chaos. Could see that the players were ready for the season to finish, but low standards are a symptom of something further upstream that's happened. You know, we didn't get the results I wanted, and I know a lot of the reasons why. Like what? So One moment I can in your life that really tested you at a much deeper level. The passing of your mother, and while you were playing at the very, very highest level. I was a mommy's boy. I lost the closest person to me, you know, everything to me. The emotional support. Ugh, want to say something more, you know, and couldn't. What would you want to say? Frank is a legend. There's absolutely no denying that. But so much has happened in recent times in his life as a manager that unanswered questions remain. And I wanted to have a conversation with Frank, an honest, open conversation to see if we could get to the bottom of some of those unanswered questions. What was happening behind the scenes? How did it actually feel for Frank? Is anyone to blame? What does Frank want to do next? And how and what caused Frank to be the man that he is? And that's maybe the most fascinating question of all. Because there's some things that Frank has just never talked about before. But he's made the decision to talk about them today. And if you have unanswered questions, I don't think you will at the end of this episode. Frank, how are you doing? Really well, thank you. There's always a There's always a short and a long answer to that, isn't there? I was waiting for your secondary answer. What's the What's the long version of of that? No, I'm doing really well. I'm um I'm currently uh on a break, I suppose, from working. Which is a pleasure in ways, because I'm obviously the the work of a of a manager uh I was going to say Premier League manager, but any manager in football is intense. Um so at the moment I'm on a a break. It's sort of holiday time for me a little bit, family time. Um and probably when I'm out of work, I learned this when I left Chelsea, actually. Um it was I had a year out after that, and I and I really learned to try to improve my appreciation of when you're out of work. You're fortunate enough to be able to be out of work, whatever that circumstance is, but try and enjoy your family and be very, very present. So at the minute I'm pretty present at home, which is a good thing, hopefully, for my children and and wife. And uh I'm in a pretty good place. I remember my my brain would often drift off when I had my time out of work. Um and I would think about things professionally. So I think about things that I could be doing, or you think back to the past. When you're When you're having those moments where you make I don't know, your kids are running around, and you you have a moment where your brain drifts off to work. What is What are the subjects that your brain starts thinking about professionally? You You think a lot in management uh about people. So, if I If I reflect on situations like leaving Chelsea or leaving Everton and those things, there is There are a lot of things that are out of your control. You get to a point where you kind of can get probably 70% of them and lock them away and kind of go, "No, I'm I'm all right with that." You know, results you can't control, but 70% you kind of you're okay with. And it's 30% that you kind of niggles at you. That's how I am. And a lot of those things when you become manager are maybe sort of like people things. I think this stuff tactics and all these things are huge in the modern game, and I uh I'm certainly a coach. I'm not a manager. But, when it comes to managing, I don't know, 25, 30 players, um managing a building because you are the figurative head of a building when you're the head coach or manager, I think sometimes when you're reflecting, you can reflect on things Did I have that Was that interaction right? Would I have dealt with that right? Could I have dealt with it differently? And hindsight is like the the best best thing, you know, it's so simple to sit there with hindsight and think, you know, I should have done that. So, I suppose I have moments where I go over things like that, but they're all They're all with a with a yearning to sort of be a bit better or learn that you might have done something wrong or actually you come to the conclusion, "No, I maybe did it right." So, you know, I dip in and out of that stuff. Um and that probably is, you know, as I say, I wouldn't say I'm the only one, but I certainly am someone that is you know, I can never control when those moments come. I can be now pushing the swing, you know, with with my kid, and then my my mind goes back to something or things that head to something, and I, you know, that probably means that I'm absolutely invested in what I do. Yeah, I can relate to all of that. And I think any Anybody can. Um and I also really like your analogy of once you get to like 50 70% peace with something, it's kind of resolved as much as you know. And then there's other things which feel kind of unresolved, I guess, or like there's more wisdom to garner from those experiences. Well, I think if you don't get to peace with the 70%, I think you can get yourself in a bit of a mess, you know, I think you can go over everything, can correct yourself, and then then then what is the answer going forward? So, I think I kind of understanding what you are, and then kind of no, no, that that was fine. Whatever the result for a win or for a loss. I've had games as a as a coach and as a player where I I we've won a game and I know I got something wrong in the game, but you take the applause itself as but inside I know I got it wrong. I've had games that we've lost and you get criticism from the outside and I know my prep was right, you know, in my head. So, I think those sort of things you can kind of stack up and go, "No, well, that's fine." But then there there's always the 30% and we'll always strive for and it might be less. I don't know, 30% sounds a big number when I say it. Sometimes it's 10% to try and make you as good as you can be. So, I kind of go over that stuff because when you're out of work, when you're not working and you don't know in football you don't know what your next gig is, you know, it's very hard to jump too far into the future because everything looks different there. So, how can you stack yourself up as good as you can now? I want to get into all of that, but I I want to take a step back because I think um I feel like there's more I need to understand about who you are as a person and your characters and your character and really the the they're like the foundations you're built upon to understand all of these thing the things we're going to talk about. So, what do I what do I need to know about Frank Lampard in terms of the influences and the experiences that shaped your character, the character of the man that's sat in front of me? Cuz you know, I've spoken to a lot of people about you in preparation of this conversation. No, but they all they all seem to sing from the exact same hymn sheet. They all say everyone says you're just a a wonderful man, like a really good solid gentleman. And it's people don't know this, but we were meant to have this conversation before. Yeah. But you've just been a total class act in even not being able to come last time because of, you know, reasons outside of your control. Um the way you conduct yourself, you just conduct yourself as a real gentleman. Um and then in terms of your mentality, when I was reading through your early years, it's clear that there was this real obsession to be better. I mean, Harry said Harry Redknapp said that you were the the hardest training, hardest working person he's ever worked with when you're a young man. Tell me, what do I Why is Frank Lampard the way he is? Uh I grew up in in Romford in Essex. So, um I would call it probably a a middle-class upbringing in terms of my dad had been a professional footballer. Um and so I went through a pretty um comfortable upbringing where I was going to school every day, aspiring to do pretty well at school, um training pretty much every day and playing at the weekends. After school we're going to train at Tottenham and Arsenal and West Ham. At one point I was training at all three. You could in those days. Now it's different. Uh I was playing cricket. I was playing for Essex as um as a as a child. So, that was on Monday night having nets at Chelmsford. And then on Sun- Saturday I went to school cuz we're in school on Saturdays. So, I was devastated with it at the time as we all were, but that was how the school worked. And on Sundays I played. So, my my week was so busy, but it was content, very content. In terms of relationship of my family, I had a a dad who was push me very hard on the very very hard. He was quite a hard taskmaster. What does that mean in in reality? Um that means that probably when I was I probably started kicking a ball when I was about four or maybe as soon as I could walk. But you know, like remembering my early days would be four or five. And then so that was me in terms of I loved the football. Um but probably by the time I was eight or nine, I was probably getting like coached or pushed in in what a 15 or 16-year-old might be when they're sort of going into an academy at West Ham say, where I ended up. As in work on your weaknesses, go over the park, you need to have more stamina, your left foot's not good enough, your agility's not good enough. So, here I was like used to put down the the the the cushions in the front room and have me doing reaction front ball against the wall reaction jump. I'm a I'm a kid. I I I loved it, don't get me wrong, but there were times when I didn't love it. And it got probably a bit too much. I'm not going to cry about it because it made me what I was and gave me the career I I got in the end. And then on the other flip of that, so I had that kind of thing. And so after a game on a Sunday, I we would lose and I would get he would give me some criticism on the way home and I would be a bit emotional. And fortunately for me, when I think about sort of fate and how things work together to maybe get you to where you got you you end up being, my mother was the the flip, the emotional support, the you know, arm around you, the quiet word. I was a mummy's boy and that was completely my upbringing. And so as I say, it was pretty comfortable and in the end it led to me leaving school with my GCSEs, getting decent grades, and then going to sign on as a YTS at the time, an apprentice at West Ham. I read that the quote about your father, I think it was in the Independent, that your dad was the biggest influence on your career. And then I read a separate quote saying that, I have an awful lot to thank him for, but sometimes I hated him. Yeah. I I I stick by that quote. It's I think you'll probably find it um a lot in stories similar to mine. Um and in the modern day, I think it's changed cuz I think parents now my the thing with my story then in a different era was it I it felt pretty organic. My dad had played. Um he saw probably a bit of talent in me and pushed and drove and an old school way I wanted you to be a player, son, you know, and it was like he sent I think he found a new sense of pride in pushing me there. Now I think some parents get excited about all the bright lights that may be and they push their children and I think that's another story, but I think mine was real. You know, my dad was a tough man, is a tough man. And he pushed me and um I remember being over a park and it was raining. It was crossing balls for me to head. Heading's never been a strength of mine. Then and now, never throughout my career. And I couldn't, you know, I couldn't connect. I was missing them and he was shouting at me and I remember sort of stumping off and and being emotional about it and um those things stick in my head and again, they were the building blocks of of myself as a person. So, you know, this isn't a sob story. It's just a reality of what I went through. As I said, I had a lot of other comfort, so you know, other people don't have it as good. And it was without that, who knows in a football sense if I'd have got to where I got. And how does that What relationship does that make you have with your work and progress and self-improvement at that very young age? Cuz you signed at West Ham when you were what, 14 years oldish? Uh 15, maybe. Yeah, 15. And and I I mean, as I said, I read that Harry Redknapp quote that you outworked everybody else. Yeah. Um What what what is your relationship with your work from that very young age? Well, I'm sort of really interested in this kind of nature versus nurture thing. What what was in me already, was ingrained in me maybe to be this kind of very work ethic-y kind of person. I think I had, you know, physical capacity. I was a chubby kid, to be fair. I was quite chubby. I had these cheeks, curtains, as you had in those days. And I remember like, I know I needed to get fitter and and get stronger. So, and then being pushed by my dad particularly and encouraged by my mom probably gave me this real desire to and an understanding that if you don't work, you're not going to get there. And that, you know, that's what I would try and pass on to my children now. But it really stuck and it became me. So, by the time of being, you know, 16 as I as I remember it, probably been at West Ham in my early years, I'd probably been forced into a bit by my dad, but I took it on board. So, you know, I wanted to get faster, so he put me in running spikes and I had to run after training go and run over the back. And I used to hide my spikes, go out the back so didn't want the other players to see me cuz I felt embarrassed. Um I'd go in on days off. Um I would practice extra shooting. I would do everything I could to to improve. And it probably was, looking back, um a desire to be the best. And I was never the best. I was probably like the second or third best kid in pretty much every team that I played in in whatever I did cricket or football. Um but I had a real desire to and I also had a fear of failure. And as much as that doesn't sound like a nice driving force, it can be a really strong driving force, I think. Where did that fear of failure come from? I don't know. I don't know. I think it's in my makeup, maybe. I I don't know. It's probably just how I am. I probably have it still these days. I think it can be really positive. It was in my football in career and it it carried on throughout. Probably still in my management career. Um it can probably be the flip of that in my life because if I fear of failing something, I won't approach it. And I I that's me. I don't want that. You know, my wife will always Christine jokes with me when we go on holiday and you want to paddle board or something. I'm like, I'm not going near that cuz I know I'm going to fall off a lot, you know. And so she'll laugh at me. So I'm like, you paddle board, I'll lay on the beach or I'll lay on the lilo or something like that. I actually use the paddle board as a lilo. That's like my That's the joke. But it in a bigger sense in my life, you know, that fear of failure is and as a it can probably maybe make me not try things I should do. But in terms of my football in career, the fear of failure was a huge driving force. I and I don't think it's a bad thing because I think there's a certain humility to it. And my mom would certainly have been a driver of me as a young person to stay stay humble, son. Stay humble. Never get too high. Stay there and you'll be fine in your own head. So I think I had a real understanding of my weaknesses and I thought, well, if I can work on these constantly and then I started to see results really step by step. Sometimes you go back, you go forward a few. But I I can certainly say looking back at my career from start to finish, I didn't leave anything on the table in terms of work ethic and training. You know, and I don't want to sound like an absolute machine. There'll be days when you get older where you come off it a bit or you you start to find life affects you in different ways. But I I when I look at my peers in football, um I certainly had a training ethic that at least did right at the top where the you know, others can say the same maybe. But I felt that. I mean, that's the the Harry Redknapp quote. He says that um during his career um he never met anyone that trained as hard as Frank. He would be out there in on a winter's day practicing shooting for hours, left foot, right foot, etc. etc. That fear of failure though, I I can see how it becomes a driving force and makes you stay out there on a winter's day, left foot, right foot, and then leaving no stone unturned. But with all these things, there comes there comes a more a a cost on the other side of the coin, right? Mhm. And you I mean, you talked about the paddleboard thing, which is that like kind of if I don't do it, then I won't fail. But one of the things that I was assuming is that it would also make you quite a a chronic over-thinker. Yeah. Because I think people that have that fear of failure, they try and think their way through a situation before it happens. Yeah. Typically, what is the cost of being that having that fear of failure? Um well, the over-thinking thing is maybe a cost, and I think it can be a positive, too. But I think it can be quite taxing on yourself, you know, for anyone who thinks like that. And you know, sometimes I would I I've tried to make myself, you know, not an over-thinker. However you do that, I don't know, because I've not found a solution to that one, because um I think it's when you are that it's in you. So, um probably the the the the negative or downsides have been probably a bit taxing on myself. But I think you learn to live with that, too. And I think you understand it. I think it's um something that I'll never master, and um it can probably cause you into over-complicating situations. Like you're saying about I don't want to get into that, but if you do get into something and you really over-think and you have to get into something, I now try and step back and simplify and say, "Stop over-thinking it. Simplify it." Because for me, anything in life, if you can simplify the basics, you probably get quicker to the solution. So, um that one's just a struggle that I put up with. But as I say, I think it's just part of my makeup. If I wasn't an over-thinker, if I didn't have that sort of obsessive, sort of perfectionist training drive, I wouldn't have got to where I got to, because I was not Lionel Messi who has this God-given talent that's there. Wherever my talent was on the spectrum, I needed to push it and I constantly tried to. How do you enjoy the process if you're overthinking? I weirdly like I've really grown to like the stress of what it brings. And that's And that that's You might start thinking I'm a strange person. I don't know, but I loved stressful training, you know, to put on a physical side for instance. I loved like that feeling of like almost feeling sick on a pre-season run or, you know, really intense training sessions. I I really enjoyed that. Maybe not always in the moment, but you know, when you get to the end of it you go, "F- I got through that and it was so intense and hard." And maybe in life sometimes I set myself challenges and maybe I I'm making it more complicated than I should, but I don't mind that stuff and that's probably when I was started off talking about that relax when you're with your children. I think I'm I'm still um juggling that one and I and I think that probably a lot of people are. I don't know. I think you know, being overthinker is not something unique to me. It's completely everywhere. Um but I don't I don't know what else to say and that's what I am. That that that enjoying the the pain like the pre-season run if you feel sick then you feel good about yourself. Yeah. Why? I don't know. I mean I I went to the gym this morning and I really didn't want to go and I'd walk the dog and my time limit's getting shorter. I was like, "I'm going to go in. I don't want to go in. I'm going to go in cuz I know the buzz that I'll get off afterwards." And that's kind of my drug and it always has been and you know, it probably starts from all those early days of you know, you must work hard. You must push yourself. You must be as fit as you can be and it probably just stuck and it's probably a a little bit of a life for me. Um but I do I do thankfully I I I I enjoy the stress of hard work and physical work less now I've finished. You know, now it's more to not get too unhealthy and unfit, whereas when I was training and playing, even when I finished playing for a couple of years, if I went for a 5K, I need to beat my 5K PB. I have to try and beat it. Now, when I do a 5K, I'm just going to complete it. Do you know? And I'm completing it in like 20 or 30 seconds less. So, I've I've dropped that one slightly, and maybe I transfer it into other parts of my life, I guess. Quick one before we get back to this episode. Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. Means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people who watch this channel regularly and have hit the subscribe button. Means more than I can say. And if you hit that subscribe button, here's a promise I'm going to make to you. I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to, and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you. Thank you so much. Back to the episode. When you when you finished your footballing career, you know, there's many options you had. Punditry. I mean, I'm just talking about the typical paths that footballers Sometimes they just go into business. A few of them go into coaching and stay in football, but you you made the decision to stay in football. Mhm. Why? And was there anything else that was tempting you? Well, I well, I I did punditry for a year. So, I spent a year working mainly on BT and doing some different things. BBC, I did a few bits and uh and I really enjoyed it. It was great. I was working a lot with Rio Ferdinand, Steven Gerrard. Um Jake Humphrey, he had him recently. And just really good people. And and it was like a step in the game and a step I've retired, so I can do other stuff. You know, the life of a pundit is, you know, much easier than a manager. We all know that. So, I kind of put my eggs in both baskets at that point. I did that and I did my coaching badges. And I wanted to kind of see how I felt a little bit. And I didn't want to be a manager in my 20s. When I got to my 30s, I was like, "Oh, that's interesting. People, managers, what how what are they dealing with?" I just thought about myself in my 20s more. Um and then when I finished, I did my coaching badges, I started to quite like it and then I got an offer out of the blue to go and manage Derby, Derby County. The owner, Mel Morris, kind of went out on a bit of a limb. He was speaking to Harry Redknapp, who's my uncle. Harry said, "Let's speak to Frank." We We sat for 2 hours in Chelsea in a hotel and he offered me the job. And it was like um uh Christian has a saying and it's like jump and the net will appear. Mhm. And we sat in my front room and I was like you know, I'm doing my coaching badges, but this is a proper job. I'm going to Derby. This They've got some problems and it's going to be a difficult job, but whatever as all jobs are. Uh and I jumped. Why? Um that inner probably drive that I have, that inner desire. I you know, it wasn't something that I I am an overthinker, so that probably made that process of those couple of days where I had to make a decision really intense. But at the same time I I like a challenge. I love a challenge. And as much as I enjoyed punditry, it was you know, it it's it's challenging. You want to do it well and you want to do it like, you know, the top boys do it. You have to put everything into it and do it really well. Um but I I was want I wanted more. I wanted to to get on the grass. I wanted to work with players. I wanted to try and improve players. I wanted to see if I could do it. It's probably more, if I'm honest, probably can I do it and can I, you know, do something. And I was probably naive at the time because the minute I walked into Derby, I was like, "Wow, this is different. You know, I've got hold of I am now holding the meeting rather than one of the 25 players sitting listening." And as much as you can think, "Oh, yeah, I'll do that." The minute you walk in and you see those 25 faces and then you walk to to say hello to Janette, who's your secretary and this one and the player liaison. I'm like, "Oh, Have I got Have I got to manage all this as well?" And you do. You have to sort of, you know, you have the building is yours to kind of set the tone. So, that first year, some of it was good. You know what? I think sometimes in management, a great manager said to me me this. He said it and he was old he's old. He was old. And he said to me, "I think I was a better manager when I was young in many, many ways." He said, "Because when I as I got older, I started to really sort of overthink things and become a little bit more cynical. And you know, you kind of go over these things. When I was young, I'd just make decisions and I was kind of free to do it. Now, I think there's a balance to that. Experience is obviously a clear and clearly help as you go along. You learn from mistakes. But I I understood his point when he said that cuz I walked into Derby fresh. And I made a lot of mistakes cuz you you always will. But I also had a a freshness and a balance and a a feeling inside me that was kind of I want to take this on. And even though there's moments of fear, you know, that kind of when you feel like a bit of impostor syndrome, should I be doing this? And you got to hide it. Like I remember having the whistle for the first day in front of in the training pitch going, "I'm going to blow this at the end of training." And I've been used to hearing coaches This sounds so stupid. I've been used to hearing coaches go, "End of the session. Stop." I was like, "What kind of whistle am I?" I didn't want to do like a little I don't know what I'm doing. You know, that. So, let alone like I've got to pick a team and set the tactics and set the tone. I was All those little things. And I think every If they're honest, I I think, you know, people in business yourself have all had those moments the most simple things where you're sitting there going, "Wow, that little basic thing that I didn't consider is now in my head." So, I had a lot of those. And it was you know, we got to the playoff final. We got to Wembley. We lost a a final against Aston Villa to get to the Premier League. And I was so disappointed for the club at Derby and the owner who'd given me, you know, put everything into me. And we'd had a really good year and got there. And and we lost it. But in terms of that first year of management, yeah, my drive took me into it. And it was just a huge learning curve. And it was a really enjoyable year. Impostor syndrome. That I mean, that's somewhat linked to I guess your fear of failure. Mhm. Have you How How does We talk a lot about impostor syndrome on this podcast because it's it's a it's a two it's a double-sided thing. On one hand, you have that feeling of which I can recall when I became a dragon on Dragon's Den and I'm sat next to Peter Jones and Deborah Meaden. Peter Jones has been there for 21 seasons since the the beginning. Deborah Meaden's been there for 17. And I feel like I've just walked into the TV. Like your little whistle thing was me like, "How do I say I'm out?" Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Um but being at peace with that, like how did you How have you dealt with that in your career? Because you went from being a pundit to managing a club that was trying to get promotion to then Chelsea. These are huge leaps forward. Yeah. Huge leaps forward. Um I think uh I probably managed to get coping mechanisms along the way that have uh I've put that to the side. And in And in simple sense, I've become much more confident in myself. Um away from work away from work actually, at home, much more content in myself. Again, it probably comes back to being really settled in relationship. I'm 45 now, just turned. Um but in the workplace as well, I've um that first year I remember feeling it a lot. And when I moved to Chelsea, like it should be a huge move. It's a huge jump to the Champions League club Chelsea. Even though I knew the club very well, it was a huge jump to deal with players of a different stature, etc. Um but I found that imposter syndrome thing much less. And I had just had coping mechanisms where I could kind of just go "Okay, you're you're you're nervous taking this meeting because you're a bit out of your comfort zone. You've got to be critical of a player. So, you're going to go in on someone. You're going to show a video of the game the other day." And it's like, "That's That's not a comfortable thing to do always." And I just probably have found mechanisms to be able to go, "Right, you almost go into the character." And I don't I don't want to sound like an actor too much, but you go, "No, I'm just going to go into it." And the more I think you do that, um the better you can be at coping with that thing. And then you just kind of also have to get a realization that you know, you can feel a bit like that. You can feel a little bit like, "I'm out of my comfort zone." Like you can make mistakes. I think showing that you can make a mistake in front of a group of players is not the worst thing. You know, they're there to Like the players will get it. You make the smallest mistake, one of those 25 at least is going to go, "What about when he said that?" You know, but I think you've got to come to peace with that. And you can even joke about it after the event cuz you'll keep making them. So, I've probably come come to terms with being able to deal with that side of it, I think. I am I I was thinking then as you're speaking actually about my experience being a dragon. And when one of the things I've always wondered about players when they go from being a player to a manager, and especially when they've been managed under a legend of a manager. So, like I was thinking about Ole Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and Sir Alex Ferguson. How hard is it to like be yourself versus be the successful manager that you saw win? Like, because even when I became a dragon, I think for the first 2 years for sure, I was trying to be a dragon, not being Steve. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a that's a journey, but do you understand the question I'm asking? get it. I get asked it a lot, and I'm not in the not in exactly the way you get asked it, but I get asked it by football journalists who say, "So, what did you take out of all your managers you played and all this stuff?" And, you know, just to jump to one would be Jose Mourinho. It's a good one to jump to because he had a huge effect on my career, as many did, but he came and probably elevated me in my playing career to a different level. And what I learned from Jose, and as I then went on to manage his after that, was that the the thing that impressed me about Jose, there was a real authentic nature to him. Like, when he was self-confident, overconfident, kind of brash Jose, he that's him, you know, that was him. And you know, maybe he's playing up a bit now and again, but I saw him behind the scenes. And then when I've worked with other managers that maybe were probably striving to be something like that, and I think after Jose there was a there were a generation of managers that were a bit like, "Okay, I'm going to wear this I'm going to wear this scarf, and I'm going to tie it like I'm wearing you know, or or act a bit kind of, you know, say those things he used to say or does say." Um and I didn't I didn't buy it as such. And even from outside when you're watching a manager, you know, you have that impression. So, I think probably yeah, you go, "Okay, can I take things from all these managers?" From my journalist question, yeah, I did from Sir Alex, not from others, blah blah blah. But when you come to it, you have to be yourself because you get found out. And you're you're probably right, in my early days I also did that. I did my first meeting at Derby again was like, "Right, I'm a next player, so anyone who wants to knock on my door, come and see me and I'll you know, I'll tell you the truth and we'll have it out or you know, I'll give you the answer that you want." And I remember like the first 3 weeks, they kept knocking on the door. I was like I was like I had to do another meeting. So lads, if you're going to knock on my door, come to me with like facts of why you should play, you know, how's your training, you know, come with something. I don't want you just like I didn't play on Saturday like Monday morning there's like five on the door knocking. And you know, open policy in the door is good, but at the same time it was like those were like learning curves for me. Like I probably said that that phrase because I felt I needed to say it. Right, yeah. You know what I mean? Like cuz there's a player it's a really it's a really cool things to apply. I want the manager to be able to speak to me all the time. And when I said it, I was like saying what I thought I should say. And then you know, you learn a little lesson, you know, my door hopefully is still open now, but at the same time I was probably playing the part of a manager. Um and then you kind of go what's real to me here, you know, like do I have to say that? Is there another way of saying it or whatever? And that kind of brings me to a question which is wouldn't it therefore have been great for you to go and learn those lessons when the stakes weren't so high? Um Because even the stakes are super high at Derby because you're you're figuring out Frank the manager there. Yeah. And sometimes you don't want to be at the poker table playing with real money. Yeah. Until you've learned. But but that's my life. You know, I I know what you're saying and I think as a as an as a I think I I think I can say this. I think as an English ex-player Steven Gerrard, others that have played at a high level, you know, played 100 times for our country etc. I think play the the the the the culture in this country is the sort of say, "Right, now you're a manager, go and earn your stripes there because being a player of that level doesn't mean you're going to be a manager." So I think that could have been a route where you can kind of get a lot of play. Well, fair play, he went down to you know, division two and he's showing what he's doing and there's a process. The the reality is that path wasn't for me, you know, and Mel Mel Morris asked me to do the take the Derby job was a question. Yeah, challenge, yes please, I'll take the challenge. You know, when I had 1 year there and Chelsea came to me, was a difficult time, they had a transfer ban. You know, Eden Hazard was leaving, it was a real transition, young players, what's going to be there next year? I think probably some big managers had turned it down, I know that. So, it was like, yeah, you know what? Challenge, I'll take it. So, you know, I don't want to try and recreate the past. I think, why didn't I do that? Because, you know, I've managed in four years of management, I've had some experience. And for all the, you know, you'll always get criticism, you know, you leave Chelsea, people will criticize you. You go to Everton, you stay up, you get relegated, people will criticize you. But at the same time, I'm I am resilient enough to deal with all that stuff now, and that's probably been probably the beauty of having a long career in football. And so, my my thing is, I can manage Derby, I can go and manage Chelsea, and do it to a good level as well, because I've had successes as well as when it hasn't gone so well. I mean, that's the modern-day manager. So, I think I probably crammed in a lot of work in four years. And and working at a high-end level with players that will test you and question you, cuz Champions League players question you. So, it's just my path. The um I mean, that's it. So, Champions League players questioning you. Mhm. You don't ever assume that happens. I mean, I I don't know a ton about what goes on in the foot in the room, but Yeah, no, I think what what when I say that, I think in um the modern-day player, particularly, I think that in in previous eras, it probably would have been more vocal and, you know, but now the modern-day player have a good understanding of the game. A lot of them have been coached in academies very, very well to a high level. Uh when they get to the top, they also when you when you, you know, are setting out tactics, they they'll have questions for you. And and I I and you have to buy into that, because, you know, you the reality is what you want is them to understand what you want, or sometimes they say something, you go, "Okay, we might change that, you know, or whatever it might be." And I think when you get to the to the top level in football, you have to understand that that's there. Now, there's a they have to understand you're the boss, and you have to make that very clear. Um but at the same time, there will be lots of players that will challenge you. "What what do you mean by that, boss?" Come to you What What But what about if that happens? You know, and you get a lot more of that. And you I remember reading Pep Guardiola once said that even if you don't know the answer, pretend that you know the answer. going to say that, yeah. And you know, so you there is a version of that because, you know, I mean, you're getting things thrown at you sometimes. It's like, you know, football is an active game. And I think sometimes in the modern day we look at the, you know, on Monday night football, you see after the event, you know, they should have done this or people are imagining what um you know, Pep Guardiola or Jürgen Klopp, or fantastic coaches are doing, and it must be this amazing complicated thing. For sure, they're amazing coaches. But it's an active game. So, if you can give a good message, then the rest is down to the players at the same time. So, you just have to prep them as well as you can, but they will they will challenge it. Mhm. That that that that got me thinking about when I sat with um Jamie Carragher, and he was telling me about all the managers he'd had and um above him when he was playing at Liverpool. And then hearing from all the United players, Nani and Evra and and Gary and Rio about what Sir Alex was like and and then reading through all of all of the managers that you've worked under. I mean, there's so many of them from José to Ancelotti. Um So many of them. I mean, there was one period at where I mean, the managers were being sacked every 6 months, it feels like at Chelsea. Um And the thing I garnered from all of them is that there is actually not a successful blueprint to being a successful manager. There's not like a blueprint. There's not a way to be a successful manager. Some of them are tacticians, some of them are man managers. Is that accurate? It's very accurate. I I agree with that. Um And uh Chelsea is a bit a bit of a unique example because in my time there, they changed manager a lot, as you say. And I don't think that's the most productive way to to run a a business in an ideal way in terms of football because in an ideal way, you kind of go, "We trust in this manager. Let's work with it. Here's the idea. We're going to go with it." And of course, it's the prerogative of the owners to change that. What we did have at the time was a fantastic unit within the dressing room of high talent, high personality that that led the dressing room. So, we had a great team and a great squad. And And when I say that, we had a spine of players of John Terry, myself, Petr Cech, Didier Drogba, Ashley Cole. I could go on. And they were personalities that sometimes would clash. But we knew our place. We knew we could rely on him. I knew that I would run for him and he'd run for me. And we also had high talent of a player that would Didier Drogba would score in every final pretty much. So I think we kind of like bridged that gap of changing managers. Um and so I think when you come back to the the question of, you know, great managers, I think sometimes it's um it's the case of compromising with with what you're working with. You have to get the people skills right. And that's the first thing I learned as a manager of the difference from playing is that you have to deal with people. You got to try and inspire every player within that group and inspire the collective. So every player will have a different motivation. It might be money for one. It might be I want to be the best striker in the world. It might be I want to be in front of him cuz I don't like him. Whatever that is, you try and tap into And I think the greatest of managers, in my opinion, and I played under, as you say, a lot, and I'm trying to be one, is they give you something that you believe in, that you can strive for, and you all buy into. And it's And it's a And sometimes it's a messy process. You know, you watch Man City lift that treble just now, and you look Listen to the Champions League. There will be so many things that we don't know behind the scenes. This player's unhappy. Pep had to do this. La la la la la. All these things that come together and give you that amazing moment. And I had that as Chelsea as a player. And so if it's to to for you to say, "Go on, tell me what a great manager is." And me to go, "Here's an answer for you in 1 minute." It's like impossible to say. Man management, that's what all the United players said about Sir Alex. Um it's the only thing that they all are completely agree on. They would say he was the best man manager. And um an inconsistent leader, which is an interesting concept. And what I mean by inconsistent leader is he would treat Gary in a different way to Nani, to Evra. And they all told me these stories. And Rio as well told me about when um Sir Alex brought that bottle of whiskey to his ill grandfather's bedside. And Rio doesn't know how he knew the favorite brand of whiskey, and how he knew his grandad was ill. Yeah. Gary told me he used to tap him on the shoulder and say, "Think about your father your grandfather's shrapnel, which is still in his shoulder when you go out there today." That kind of bespoke, tailored approach to leadership, which is seems to be Sir Alex Ferguson's um highest accolade. Sure. And I and I think that runs into the modern day that we get very caught up in in tactics, and rightly so. The game's moved on from those days tactically, but those people and and you you'll know yourself, you know, inspiring people and as you say, to be bespoke and kind of individualize it and look within the group and have moments cuz, you know, if you ask me about my career, you go like, "Frank, what do you remember out of those 20 years?" Like, "Would you remember the meeting where Jose, you know, played you a bit higher up?" I wouldn't. He'd say, "Do you remember the time that Jose said those words to you that inspired you?" And it could be like one sentence. I got, "Yeah, I remember that." Do you know what I mean? Like, things that stick with me that I remember that made me go, "I'm going to I'm going to run for this man. He's going to make me better." You know, and I had that. And I I think so, what you just said there about Sir Alex Ferguson, I think the great managers have. You look at and they have it in different styles. Pep Guardiola, Jurgen Klopp, everyone will have a different style of that. And that's a huge part to their success, I think. What are you like as a manager? If you had to do like a self-assessment. I think you got you got to ask somebody else that. I don't know. Um I don't know. I try and be uh close to the players. As I say, my open door thing. But at the same time, I think I I try and find a balance. I I think the important thing for me was when I became a manager was to not expect anybody, any player, to see it how I saw it or train how I trained or whatever, you know, for good or for bad. And you have that's I think a bit of a skill, which, you know, Sir Alex probably had perfectly. So, I try and be as close to the players. I try and learn all the time. I'm a coach. I want to coach on the pitch. I think my biggest pleasure is coaching and improving players, and particularly young players. And I've had the you know, the the fortune to work with some really good young players. At Derby, I had Mason Mount, Harry Wilson, Fikayo Tomori. And then at Chelsea, obviously Tammy Abraham, extra ones, and Everton, Anthony Gordon, etc. So, I think they are the real sponges that are a real pleasure to work with, and I love that part of it, being able to speak to them. And you do find, and it's a reality, and I remember being an older player, a bit more cynical. When you're a younger player, you're like come They're They're like a blank canvas, and you can, you know, push them and try and push them in that. So, I'm probably quite intense with the younger players. Um I try and be as I say inclusive in that, and I'm I'm always trying to learn. Um and and try and just trying to be me. It's It's a hard answer that one. I think you'd have to ask, you know, maybe a member of staff or a player. I'd pick the right player cuz you'd probably get different answers because when you work with I worked at Chelsea recently with 30 players. I pick You pick 11 for a game, and like eight subs. And the subs I outfield subs, the subs don't really like you cuz they're not starting, let alone the other 10, you know? So, it's a really hard balance with the modern squad to to get there, but you have to try and make it inclusive because if you're going to get anywhere, you've got to go all together, and that was one of the problems for being at Chelsea this season. 30 players is is it's not possible to manage that. On the other This is maybe this is even more difficult question. What are you trying to work on then? What are the the areas of as a leader, as a manager you're trying to work on? Cuz I can think of for myself, I can think of a number of areas where I go, "Do you know what? That is still somewhere where I have a recurring when I reflect in hindsight, I go, "Fuck. I I I need to get better here." What is that for you? Quite a few things I would say because um the overthinker thing comes in again, and I'm I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so you know, I always want to try and improve um you know, my tactical and and the personal touch and those things, but I think uh when I came away from Chelsea, I realized I needed to delegate time better. That was something I was certainly not great at. I've got You have your staff for a reason. They're there to support you, and at times they'll be better than you at certain things. So, give them it, you know, and give them that. You obviously oversee that thing, and I probably spent a lot of time um trying to be across everything, whereas really I probably could have come back from that and save my own energy. So I think I'll certainly try and improve that side. I did between Chelsea and Everton for sure to try and save that. I can um uh be pretty over reactive sometimes if I see things I don't like in terms of and when I say that it's always effort or standards. And I think I am that's one of the things I'm biggest on is that you know if you're going to make a mistake in the game I've got no problem with that. Um if you're going to not run for your teammate if you're not going to try and throw the week with an idea that when I train on Monday that's got a direct relation to what Saturday's going to look like. If that feeling isn't there then I probably can either get upset with the player or maybe kind of distance the player. And I think when you're working with a group you have to be careful of that one because not every player has your mentality but so you have to either try and bring them up to the party or if not then they're going to have to not be there if you're going to have success as far as I see it. And that sounds really harsh but it's one of those things where you go if you can work in a in a in a team and you're going to take it it to exactly where you want it to be out of that squad of 25 if you've got that kind of I remember managers would say this you have you know that there's your six or seven you know you're going to get every day. They're going to try and they're going to come in they're going to be so active every day. You're going to have the middle group of somewhere in the middle you going to have the ones that maybe I'm just coming to training. You know or you know I'm not I'm a bit sore today. You know that and that sounds simplistic to say but you have to try and work if you want to work in a forward direction and go okay those six are with me right you try and guard at them. Those are the ones that can kind of pass the message. Those ones in the middle okay can we keep pushing and working between me and the staff to try and improve them. And then the ones that are there come on can we help them can they come with us if not you have to speak to the club and that's where the club has to be aligned to go okay if you want to go in that direction and we're with you okay we'll work that out and that becomes a recruitment or players leaving the club. I mean that's you know that's that's the reality of how it has to be. And that's the reality of business as well. Um uh I've just finished writing this book and it talks about these three lines and basically says if everybody in Think about a person in your team and if everybody in the team represented their cultural values, right? Which is what you're talking about with your six disciples there. If everybody represented the cultural values, would the bar would the overall bar be raised or lowered? And you'll have some people who would Imagine if everyone was like them, like a Frank, you know, a Frank Lampard or a John Terry, how high that the cultural values would be raised. Then you have other people where if everyone was like them, you'd be relegated. Yeah. And and what to do with those three cohorts of bar raisers, maintainers, and bar lowers. And that's kind of what I That's a good way of putting it. I mean, I And I think the I think the bar raisers can take some time to raise the bar. But the bar lowers can get you very quickly. Yeah, yeah. That's kind of my experience because that kind of when that kind of that toxicity or whatever it is, you know, like this Why are we doing this training? Why do we have to do or whatever, that kind of negativity which can slip in, can be really contagious. And then in a winning sport, and as much as we're talking here about great managers, winning is is everything, you know. And it's that's obviously relative to if you're a Man City or an Everton, like Everton will win kind of 35, 40% of games at best at the moment. And you know that. So, you know that they're going to be 65 or so percent of weeks where it's not that great. The bar lowers can go and they lower it quickly. Whereas, you know, if you can get the raisers to take control, um then they that then I think generally you can kind of get there. So, it's a really important thing. That that's probably one of the interesting things that as I say, the the transition from player to manager, trying to get that because if you whether you were one of the bar raisers or you're in the middle group or the lower group, when you become a manager, it doesn't matter what you were. You've got to kind of get that get the script of what it is and kind of just push. Um so, that that's something that I think we're all trying to improve on everything called the time. And coming away sometimes give you nice time to to have perspective and just kind of go I'm going to put it in line a little bit and it looks a bit different to what I thought before that experience. Yeah, know, this is I mean, I guess this is why some of the the greatest managers of all time they hold on to their Gary Nevilles and their, you know, their disciples. Yeah. And I I spoke into Gary about this. Gary said to me, in fact, when we were filming Dragon's Den recently, he said, "For those last two years, Sir Alex kept me there because of the my impact in the dressing room." Yeah. "Not my impact on the pitch, but on the dressing room. I could keep keep the standard high." Um, in the modern world, I was reading the stats, managers are getting fired quicker than ever. Sure. And it almost it must be so difficult to establish authority when the players are aware, um, that the manager's going to be the one to be taken out if things don't go well. Yeah. In business, it's not like that Right. as a CEO, because I own the company and I am the manager. Yeah. So, if there's if there's behavior underneath me that's toxic and contagious, Sure. I can act. Yeah. The center of authority is with me. Yeah. Whereas, it seems like in a club, the center of authority is really like the chairman, the owner. Yeah. Um, sometimes the manager manages manages to get that, but in the modern world, we don't let managers last long enough to build that authority. No. And that's the tough world that it is, and I think, you know, you probably have to earn the right as a manager to get to a club, maybe when you look at the perfect models right at the top, you know, and Manchester City is a good one to talk about. Now, I worked with the City Group. I had one year playing there. And I could see when I was there, they hadn't arrived at that point, but I could see with the stability from above and how it run and the vision, it was like, we're going to get they were going to get somewhere because they had a great structure. And it wasn't like it was going to get pulled and pushed and pulled for, you know, a small period of time. It was like, we're going to get there. And then they hired Pep. You know, they had a not difficult first year, but the first year was kind of him finding his way. I need this, I need this. And then he's fantastic coach and they have great players. But if you don't have that aligned thing where, as you said, the most important person at the club in the modern day, in my opinion, is the owner. And it is the structure at the top because they really they set the tone. Maybe it's financially, uh, maybe it's with the sporting directors in recruitment because you'll be as good as the players you recruit. A great manager, again, I I don't want to sit here and drop names, it said to me it was when we finished at um, the first my first season at Everton, we just stayed up skin of our teeth. And he was like rang me to say congratulations. He went, "Frank, don't rest. 80% of your work for next season will be done in the next month." So, it was recruitment. So, like 20% will be what you do next season and now the 80% is like bringing the right players. So, I think, you know, like that that alignment as as Kip saying there is something that, you know, if you can get um an owner and there are great owners and there are great sporting directors and recruitment and the manager and the manager is so, you know, critical to it. But, when you look at last season, 13 managers left their club. I think it's 13 out of 20 clubs. And you're talking about, you know, Antonio Conte and you're talking about Thomas Tuchel, you know, managers that had huge successes. It shows you that the landscape's changed to the point where the manager will be culpable. And I think you have to come you have to be at peace with that. But, you have to try and get to the point very quickly where you have success. And that's tough. Because winning is in the modern world of social media and reaction is like, "Get him out." You know, "Get the next one in." You know, sometimes maybe they're right. Maybe the manager is culpable. But, other times there are there are many things. And to come back to your original point about players and those stalwarts and the the Gary Nevilles and the James Milner at Liverpool in the last whatever years, you know, people on the outside I think it's very easy to look at the superstars, the Mo Salahs and that. I I can guarantee you and I know this firsthand from speaking to people, people like James Milner and Jordan Henderson have absolutely set the tone of that club for the last whatever years during great success. And if you don't have that kind of those drivers within that top six or eight, I think it's very hard to sustain it success or get success. And again, back to my Chelsea days, we had that naturally. And we were actually quite diverse. So, it was like John Terry was like the real captain like heart on his sleeve. You could see it in him every day. I was probably like more quiet, but like a a trainer and standards and myself and trying to hope that that would bring people with us. Didier was just so charismatic from the Ivory Coast and kind of brought in, you know, that section of the dressing room and he took a Petr Cech spoke five languages. Ashley Cole was such a nice lad and he's you know, best left back the country's probably ever seen. So, we had this amazing group. Mhm. And like if others aren't going to follow that, then very quickly it was like you're not going to make it. Regardless of the manager change, it's like you won't you won't survive the dressing room and that's kind of how it was. I it reminded me of a quote that I've said on this podcast before, which is when the culture's strong, the new people become the culture and when the culture's weak, the culture becomes the new people. Right. Because when you have those that core of disciples, someone coming in, they'll they'll stand out so much if they don't fit in with you, DDA, Frank, etc. That they'll instantly be expelled. But when the culture's weak, someone will come in and they'll actually influence the dynamics and that's when you really, from my experience in business, is when you're really, really screwed. No, that's interesting cuz I think in football as well, cuz it's so topical, it's there's so much conversation around it. They know I managed at Chelsea for seven weeks, I think I did. And I spoke a lot about standards and I was about I must say standards to him. I swear you say it in every post-match. Yeah, I know and it wasn't like not trying to be clever and go I'm just going to this is my line out standards, but it was like it was very evident to me when I walked in um because you know having worked at Chelsea as a as a coach before and as a player, I I I do know the standards. I do know that. And this is not a direct criticism of the players either because when I look at the players' situations where they were and I understood how it'd been a long year. I walked in on with 10 games to go. They'd been there for the whole season and a lot of players were not playing. They were probably going to leave, which we're seeing now. They whether they were going to leave or the club wanted them to leave or they or hadn't been playing with the previous managers. And I could see in training that it wasn't the level wasn't enough. It wasn't enough to go and get a result at, you know, whoever you might want to say at Brentford at home or at Real Madrid. It wasn't enough and and I can say this now cuz I said this to the players. And again, it's not an individual criticism of the players because I also when you're trying to say you want to be a manager, you have to have a a personal understanding of like human nature. If I'm a player that's not been playing for the last 7 months and I'm think I'm leaving in 4 weeks time, I'm probably going to struggle to motivate that player. You know, I'm not I've got magic wand to motivate that player. So, I think it was that probably the my biggest learning out of Chelsea was when you talk about standards and culture. I think people got he talks about his standards, you know, what he talks about his culture. And I you know, maybe I have to catch myself on and not say every interview, but at the same time it was if you don't have a building block of standards, then that winning culture that everyone goes what's winning culture? You go, well, let me I'll try and explain it to you, but it has to start with a basic standard and which for me is always like train to a level where you're going to push your teammate, he's going to push you and then we're going to be as competitive as you can be. We don't have to win. Not every team can win. You know, there's Manchester City pretty much win the league every year at the minute. So, what's success for everybody else? For Brighton it's coming sixth or whatever. For Newcastle it's like, wow, Champions League, that's huge success. So, everyone has a version, but my guess is those teams that have over performed, out performed, they've got something there which is a basic standard that they just build on. And you know, to be fair to Chelsea, they're in a position now where that's needs to be worked on again. It's a transitional time. That brings me to the quote you said after your Newcastle game which was the standards collectively have dropped. I can be honest now because it's your last game. I might not see them for some time anymore. But low standards are a symptom of something further upstream that's happened. And we saw this at Manchester United. I'm a big Man United fan. I've seen a a decade, 5 years of just like chaos where we've got these amazing players, but 1 + 1 = 1.5. We call it diseconomies of scale. In great culture, 1 + 1 = 3. You know, where you can make great average players together play amazing the football of their lives. The furthest upstream thing, where did the standards start to slip? What is the thing that happens in a club like Chelsea in your experience when you went back there that had caused that dropping of standards which we now saw on the pitch with your sort of 10 games there. Well, I think um when I was tongue in cheek, by the way, when I said I'm not going to say them again, because it was a bit like, as I say, I wouldn't say I hadn't said it to them, and I've said it a couple of few times. But I the position of it was that, and I think the biggest thing about the standards thing was the the size of the squad. It was the the motivation of players that um you're going to not play, or you're out of the Champions League squad, or these things like It's It's like asking, you know, one of you I don't know, you you maybe love doing this. This is This is like one of your great ma- You know, I want to sit and you want to speak to all these fantastic people that you speak to. Like, thanks for your prep, Stephen. Now, Peter Jones is going to do it. You know what I mean? You'll be like, cheers. Do you know what I mean? How long are you going to go with that? Yeah. So, I and I think in football that's it is that's a challenge with 20 or so players, which is the modern squad. But with with Chelsea, it's got very big to the point where it's just how I felt, where I can say, you know, I'm not criticizing that player for a a dropping standards. I want to try and get something out of him, cuz I had a short period. I want to try and get something out of him. So, I would try, but then when you actually look at it, you kind of go, yeah, but he's had this for a long time, where he's not playing. So, he's not now being competitive with that player who is playing. So, that player is pretty comfortable, too, because he's not pushing him. So, you kind of get this thing where you're like, you know, we probably took it for granted in in some of my better days at Chelsea, when we were successful, of like this kind of thing that works, you know? It wasn't even a thing you said. You know, you didn't have to sort of have a meeting every day and go, you know, what are standards, coach? You know, pie chart, and that's what that is. It was almost like this is what we do. Mhm. And at the minute, sometimes, for whatever reason, there's a transition of maybe new ownership, you know, not everything was perfect before the new ownership. I was there before the new ownership, as well. Like, to find consistency as Chelsea would really want, of winning Premier League titles and challenging, has been a good few years now. So, I I think that getting the squad right, um being able probably a a fresh voice as a manager coming in now, who's obviously a fantastic manager with a great record, to come in and go, "No, no, no. This is the way." And now the squad looks compact. You're going to compete with each other and try and create a great environment. Everyone needs a great environment to have success. You know, you cannot have a success without team spirit and togetherness. So, when I got there, I could just see that that that that the the spirit and the togetherness wasn't was not there. It was nothing bad, you know, like it was not bad to go for the week. I could just see like you have to train elite to be elite. You have to. And that's not you know, on the Monday players play every few days sometimes. When I say that, it's not like show me how many sprints you can do every day. It's like, "Okay, if we're doing prep tomorrow, give me that intensity of of thought about what what this is for you. And let me see it in your face." But then at Chelsea when you did that, you had to go right, "If I want to really focus on the the 10 or 11 for tomorrow, that means I've got to have like 18 players over there." And you kind of saw the body languages they walked off some of them that they were like, "Again." Cuz they've been having it all season some of them. So, on a on a human level, I completely understood. And in the end, it was like I came back here because obviously this was an an opportunity to come to to my club, you know, Chelsea, a club close to my heart. But as soon as I got in, I realized that probably I thought, "You know what? 30 players I can motivate in 6 7 weeks because it's not like a long-term thing. I can come in and be fresh." Um but in terms of what when I came in, I've I noticed very quickly that some players were probably thinking about this season's going to peter out and what's the future going to look like. And that was a a difficult situation. You said I never crossed my mind that the size of the squad has such a big impact, but it makes perfect sense because you need that sort of healthy competition. And I believe your first team was Was it 32 players? Yeah. Which is more than you're allowed to register for the Premier League or Champions League. So, you had this kind of surplus of A lot of players. A few A few are always injured probably, you know, so that comes down a bit, but it's a surplus and it's a surplus of um the the the makeup of the squad is international players generally. There was a few There were a couple of young players, but when you try and build a squad, it would be like, this is you know, this is my core kind of 15 or 16 and then you go and maybe these these two experienced players that might not need to play right away. And then we've got these kids that are waiting and they're like just happy to be there. They want to play. They're going to be training and if you give them an opportunity, they'll be like, but when you have like international players in a big number, then of course, you know, you're you're telling internationals you've got to stay at home. It's not it's not easy. And you know, to to have the conversation every Friday with them and get them lined up coming in is also not easy for your own energy. Do you know what I mean? So I That's not easy. I I don't care how what kind of a man manager you are. Like it's like, next, you're not playing, okay. Next, you're not playing, you know, like whatever you However you try and box that up to a player, eventually they'll probably go, I know I'm not playing. You know, like stop telling me this Do you know what I mean? So I think you know, that that was an interesting learning curve for me. Like an interim job is is what it is. And I kept getting asked, you know, people it was kind of frustrating me at times like, are you finding this so hard? Are you finding this so hard? I was like, you know what? I'm back home in a club that I love. You know, a fantastic training ground. I'm doing everything I can in this job to try and improve it. But there were I knew behind the scenes there were a lot of things that, you know, myself and my staff, we want to improve. We want to coach. We want to When you when you lack those basics, and as I say, I I think there's an understanding at the club that it has to change now. I think it has to it has to change. Then if you lack those basics, then it it's really hard to get where you want to want to get to. What what How does that happen though? So there's 30 32 players and then Chelsea spends more money than I think anyone's ever spent in a in a window in that sort of January window. You bring in all of these players on these long contracts, which I've never heard before. I think it was like eight-year contracts. And they're all like class amazing individual players. Um is that a Is that because the the new owner doesn't understand those dynamics of football? Cuz that's what it had seemed like for me. I thought either this is a genius or an idiot. Yeah. You know, I don't I don't want to criticize anyone like on a personal level, but as a fan looking and I go signing these players on eight-year contracts, they're great players spending all this money, the impact on culture when you just throw stars in at such quantity. Yeah. It looked in it looked like inexperience and naivety. I think that's um that's understood now in terms of what it's meant with those 30 players. And I think you've seen that now and already I think I've six, seven, eight players have left. So, I think but the intentions are certainly good. I know that cuz I work the owners gave me an opportunity to go in there and I had a good relationship with them. Their intentions to do a good job at Chelsea are amazing. They want to take the club and be the best, you know, they have great intentions. So, now I think those younger players now with um a new voice, a new manager, the the squad coming tighter, I think they'll have a greater chance to show what they've got anyway. And they're talented players. And you know, I remember being in Chelsea when Eden Hazard arrived in preseason it was like, is this kid he was a bit lazy looking, you know, and he was a bit kind of strolling around. Is this kid definitely a And then that first season it was like, oh no, he's really good. And then on the second and third season like, no, this kid's one of the best players the Premier League's seen or whatever. Thierry Henry, Didier Drogba, like you can go through all these players who are who are like absolute legends. Now, if you're asking, you know, those five, six, seven players to come in and hit the ground running in a in a difficult moment for the club, it's understandable. So, I think as a Chelsea fan, you know, you look at it and kind of go, right, okay. But that that is positive. There's talent there. Okay. And it needs to be worked with. Now, I'm sure that you can see the squad's getting trimmed. And I as I can say, hand on heart, the intentions of the owners is absolutely, you know, they spent that money cuz they want to do well. Now, if they're going to address the situation a bit, that's that's their strategy going forward. But I do think, you know, you'll see players like Enzo Fernández, Mudryk, and these players Madueke, young players, they're going to develop and they're going to be big players for the club. They they they you have to get the structure right and strategy right going forward. What's a I think it's that adding like I don't know, six or seven of these players all at once pretty much halfway through the season Mhm. um in a in a squad that's already struggling to figure out who it is Mhm. under Graham Potter. Um it begs the question like who's doing the recruitment here? Because at other clubs it's a much more strategic It seems like a much more strategic and intentional and football driven approach to recruitment. Whereas from what I saw at Chelsea and I have actually spoken to some people at Chelsea Mhm. who are involved in recruitment, it seemed like chaos. Yeah, I mean I I wasn't there for that period. Right. So that was in I I got there in April and like so January was the last window and obviously they spent last summer but I think the the the change of ownership and then obviously some people moved on who were in the hierarchy of the club and so there was changing so there was a big change of structure. So I think you have to give um some time and some leeway for the process and I and that they certainly now are sporting directors recruitment people in there having worked with them who are very talented, very hungry, you know, good to go and I think now it will be um up to them to to take the club forward. They haven't signed bad players. I think it's maybe the the the strategy of bringing them all in at that time, you know, looks a bit excitable at the minute as in terms of there's a lot of players for success but I think probably there's a long game and I think there's a plan. And I think probably most huge clubs like Chelsea have had a version of what this period is. Manchester United mentioned there, Arsenal for quite a long time, Liverpool for periods, you know, so I think um we have to give different I think to to over judge now when I think they have signed some good players would be to to be over critical. I think at the moment I think the the proof will be now how these players develop once now it's feels a bit more settled going forward. Mhm. I think that's I think that's all true. I think um What's the optimal way for player recruitment to happen in your opinion? Because I've you often hear about these stories of where you know, there's an owner will take charge of a club and then they'll just decide who they want. Which is probably what I'd be like if I was an owner. I think I would I'd like Football Manager. I think I'd just buy who I who I want to buy, who I think looks good. Um Manchester United suffered with that. It felt like our decisions were commercial decisions as opposed to footballing decisions. Then when Erik ten Hag's come in it feels a bit more like it's football decisions. And what in your opinion and then I did speak to um some people at Chelsea because I actually went to I was invited to uh sit with Richard Arnold and a couple of Manchester United executives and when we played Chelsea at Old Trafford. I was in the director's box. Okay. So I sat with the like sport the new sporting director at Chelsea. Yeah. Um and he said there's now two sporting directors I believe. Yeah. Um so it's interesting to talk to them. Um but what is the about the optimal way for recruitment to happen in your opinion? Well, I think um with a with a you have to understand what you want the the philosophy and the identity of the club to be. So for instance, I think Manchester City are quite firm in their the idea when they the Pep Guardiola's come in and the the sporting directors have worked at Barcelona previously with him that this is how we want to play. This is the manager that's going to deliver that style. So here's how we recruit for that style. Chelsea's always been a bit different for me. The the beautiful game that the tiki-taka as you call it at Man City has not been Chelsea style. It's been more of a winning machine in a different kind of way, you know. In in my day it was more of a powerful team that was probably we were good on the eye, but we were not that kind of, you know, pass pass pass. We were like powerful and effective. So I think you have to understand what you want to be. And and once you get to that point you probably the first thing is to recruit a coach that, you know, works within that and then you know that's the kind of coach you want because this is what you want to be. Those conversations are in the interview process. And then once you get to that point, I think the recruitment has to be joined up depending on how active the owner wants to be and I I I respect and appreciate active owners. It's their clubs, their prerogative. And then the sporting directors and the um manager. And then obviously recruitment which brings all the data analysis into the picture and it has to be joined up and it has to you have to be all very confident by the time you want to bring in a player that you're going yeah, this is the player we want to bring in and there's always one or two or three options because you may not get target number one. But I think you have to be able to recruit for the style that you want to be. So the coach really has to have a big buy-in to that as well. But you as a coach in the modern day you understand the process. I appreciate being aligned and having other people not just responsible for who you're bringing in but also like giving me something that I don't know. I'm not there sifting through the data. Uh you know, they have to show you that data and here's the reasons why, the videos, people that watch them and also the personality of the player because you know, not to say you're going to sign, you know, 10 James Milners because their character is amazing and their professionalism. But you need to know they're going to come in in the dressing room who's going to they're going to be good for the dressing room and they're going to help in terms of how you drive forward in terms of their personality. One of the one of the key questions I'm I want to answer and I wanted to ask you today is like how would you have what would have had to happen to avoid the situation where you had that unhealthy culture at Chelsea behind the scenes in those when you came back in as the interim. What would have what could you have done to avoid that happening? Say you're in the you know, if you were you could in hindsight have a wand and and correct things that were done. I get the first point which was about smaller squad size. Um what else? What else avoids that? Man, from my from my first day in the a you're a you're a you're you're a um a genie and you can knowing what you know about the the what you inherited there, what would have had to be done previously to avoid you inheriting that? Smaller squad is the first thing that I got. Yeah, smaller squad. I mean some things are just a bit you know, like the the there are there are phases, you know, and I think Chelsea um they won the Champions League. I left. They won the Champions League like three or four months after I left. And at that point you kind of go, "Okay, where's the next move?" And you kind of go, "How was recruitment then? How what things work then?" And maybe some players left during that period. Maybe in terms of recruitment you wanted to bring in my maybe some people be like the the the future in terms of the I when I was at Chelsea before I wanted to bring in Declan Rice. I was like, "This this kid's going to be the the the captain of Chelsea for the next, you know, 10 years." It didn't happen, but anyway. But I think in terms of those things it's hard for me to sit here and kind of dissect you know, other people's work in that period in between, you know, like I would have maybe had an idea. It wasn't my idea because I'd already left the club. So maybe like when I came in it was it's not it's it's really hard for me to kind of dissect all those moves, you know, I came into what I came into. So, you know, that's I think I'd probably be a little bit casual for me to kind of go, "They should have done this." You know, like in high it's a hindsight one that's Yeah, it's kind of me wondering just cuz I've been a Man United fan and I've seen that happen and I saw obviously Sir Alex Ferguson leave. And then we just had these 10 years of what I describe as like confused chaos. And I'm trying to figure out almost like how in a Sir Alex Ferguson situation, how he we could have avoided that if at all possible. I mean it's such a big figure. That's that's difficult, isn't it? I agree. I don't know enough about Manchester United, but I do I I can understand why after Sir Alex leaving and also pivotal players were probably coming to the end of their time at the same time as him leaving. To replace that and keep moving forward, I mean you can there might have been mistakes in it's not my thing, but I can understand why it feels like a long period for a club the size of Manchester United, but it just shows you that I think that how cutthroat and fast-moving this Premier League is because if you come off the gas gas in terms of recruitment or whatever or you have a bad time climbing back up there. Like people think, "Oh, yeah, you you know, you're Chelsea, you'll be in the Champions League again next year." Or Arsenal, you'll be there like Arsenal had to work a long time to come back and challenge for the league last year with a lot of work. And you know, people were criticizing Mikel Arteta in the beginning and now, know, they've worked together and stuck together and recruited really well and now they're ready to go. So I mean it's not I don't think we should expect even you being a Manchester United fan or me having a Chelsea head on that. Oh, next year it's going to be great. Like it's everyone else is moving forward too, you know so. When you get that call, the interim call. Mhm. You've just left Everton. Yeah. Um you're out of work. Um Graham Potter's been released from his responsibilities. What's going through your head when they say we we want you to come back in and and take a an interim manager role? If I was a fly on the wall and when that phone call happens. Um you nearly were. Yeah, I was. We were going to do this. So I know yeah, I mean I wasn't going to tell the story but No, I I could tell it for you. I was coming to meet you and I rang you to say sorry I'm going to become Chelsea manager. That that meeting they you know people arrived at my house that afternoon. So Well just to be clear you didn't tell me that exactly. You said I can't come and I can't tell you why. Then then I told you after. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, but you told me after. But I'm not an idiot so I kind of inferred maybe that. Okay. So anyway I mean no, I think probably that the it's it's normal that I consider everything and you know, I probably considered it as in firstly it's a club very close to my heart as I said before. Um a challenge of working and it was like we had two games against Real Madrid and we had the season to pan out. A difficult run in so I was I was fully aware of that. Um and I know maybe like you know, I I do love a challenge. If that challenge had been probably any other club other than Chelsea I probably would have said no. I was very happy to be at home as such in that period. I wasn't fighting to get a job at that period. Um so it was probably a bit of head and heart. Um I'm not sure what probably heart probably was a bit more substantial in this one than the head because I suppose if you look back again we're in that hindsight position but you know, what were my ne- what were my positive outcomes? What were my negative ones? The minute we didn't get through against Real Madrid, which probably a lot of people would have bet on. Um, you're kind of into that zone of end of season and what are you playing for as a club like Chelsea and that's not the normal Chelsea. You should be playing for something. And at the in the end we played for not not so much. And of course another reason my motivation come down. So I probably could have been a bit more ahead of the game in that. Whether that would have changed my mind, I don't have a regret about doing it. I went back there. If people from the outside want to um, you know, uh criticize or have a view on it from the outside for six or seven weeks work, I've got no problem with that. I worked at Chelsea before. I worked at other clubs and you know, it's another experience. It wasn't my most favorite experience in my footballing career. I won't lie, but it's an experience and I have learned out of it. Not so not so much, but I've I've mentioned a few of the things. Not your favorite ex- experience. Did you enjoy it, be honest? Um, I enjoyed the first few weeks. I felt like I was back at Cobham. I know so many people there. I was like into the challenge. In the middle bit, I probably started to understand more that there's there's a lack of, you know, what we've spoken about. Um, and then in the last week we we had Man City away, Manchester United away and Newcastle at home as our running. And I was like, okay, let's get through this week cuz I could see that the players were were ready for the season to to finish. You know, like it's it's again, some of that I got on a human level. Did that not hurt you to some degree like cuz you love this club so much and you're a winner. And if you see these players have checked out, you you know, it's not just they're checking out on you as a manager, but they're checking out on the club that you love. Yeah, as a general as a general it didn't hurt me because having worked in football for a period I've been a player a long time. I've seen a lot of these instances and I'm not holding the players to my standard as such. And and a lot of them I did know the back story and the side stories. I could get that they were moving on. So you know, if a player is moving on, they might just not you know, they might not be ready for those last few games. They might have a bit of an issue or something and you know But there's no way that you you can accept that. There's no No, but but is it Well, put it this way. I I don't want to I don't want to come here and and shout too much because in a short period um it's hard for me to make too many statements. What I will say is that I think I under- I understood the role of being interim and I understood that probably there was not much There's there's certainly not much to gain for me saying, "Oh, that was so bad or that was so bad." now because when I look back probably just try and set my own thing out of it and I don't I don't I don't want to go there. I didn't work long enough with the players to be there the one gun and I can't believe that happened at the end of the season. You know, I walked into position with some of them a bit disenchanted or whatever and I I'm not going to tell that player that you shouldn't feel like this. I'll try and drive them and drive them amongst the group but it's not for me to go because a lot of players are sit- a couple of players sat with me and said, "Listen, I'm going to be leaving in the summer. I'm finding it a bit difficult." I'm like, "Okay, I I get that. I'm not going to change that in 4 weeks or whatever." So So what was the objective then in the in the 4 weeks when you're thinking about when you realize that what was the sort of behind-the-scenes context? Do your objectives shift and shift slightly and go, "Okay, success here looks now looks like this for me." Yeah, in reality and I didn't get that because it would be results, you know, because everyone would um would judge me on results. So in terms of me it would be success here would to to have got better results in that period of time and come through there working at a high-level club again. You know, it's it's extreme pressures, it's the media, it's the players, it's everything is trying to get results in games and in some games we competed against Real Madrid, we competed against Manchester City, we competed but you know, that wasn't to be but that was my version of success but you know, football is not that simple, you know. So many journalists asked you after if you you kind of like regret taking the job and your answer's always been like no cuz I've I've learned a lot. It's your it's your club. It's it's Chelsea. Um however, had you known the context and this is only something think know in hindsight. Mhm. We can't know it in foresight. If there was some magic genie that could have shown you the context, the behind the scenes, the dynamics, the 32 players, the culture, honestly, do you think you would have made a different decision? Cuz I think I would have. Yeah. But we don't have hindsight, obviously. We It's a It's a magical thing that Yeah, but I I think probably I know and you and you might think I'm wrong for saying this, but you you would probably be taking some emotion out of it from my point. And also just how I am about the challenge of going into that. So, if you say, "All right, all the context is here, Frank, but you're not going to know what the results are yet. But here's all the context. You know, this player is disenchanted." I kind of knew that. I I wasn't sure. This is how it's working. I'm like, I would be like, "Okay, this is what I've got to work with. Can I get results?" And whether I was um misguided in my own thoughts, I probably would have gone, "Yeah, I'll I'll do that." If I've got to be honest, I don't It's too easy for me to say I wouldn't have done it for that. And and and nobody gave me that what you said. I mean, if you had that in an ideal world, I understand what you're saying. And again, that's why people might look at it. I don't I generally don't have a problem with you know, someone how I would possibly have a view from the outside on someone doing what I did. I don't think it's that changed the world. I think my I played for 13 years at Chelsea. I I coached them before in the Champions League for 2 years on the trot. Like I I don't think that whether people want to have a view on me, I don't worry about that. I went back for that challenge of that period. And you know, we didn't get the results we wanted. I know a lot of the reasons why. I'll take the responsibility for my reasons why. Um and that was it. You know, I don't have a big issue with it. It's like cuz it's Chelsea, it's so topical. You manage Chelsea, one of the biggest clubs in the world, and it's it's one of the clubs that takes so much, especially in the Roman Abramovich, is so much interest because there's a turnover. You like lose one or two games, and it's like, "Ooh, what's happening here?" So, you know, it's uh I'm big enough and strong enough to handle that stuff. So, you would have Having seen the context, you would have backed yourself regardless? I don't have regardless. That sounds like I'm thinking I'm some Superman that turned out not to be Superman. Do you know what I mean? I don't I don't I don't know. You're asking me so hypothetical. The season ends eventually. Um Relief? Relieved in any way? How do you feel in the end? The last, as I said, last couple of weeks were quite tough because it was seeing out a season. It's not, for someone like me and for a club like Chelsea, like it's not a nice place to be. You know, I want to want to challenge for things and that's that's not nice. So, relief probably, yeah. Um because I knew it would end and and it ended and it wasn't like nice a time. Time to have holidays I'd planned before. Yeah, for sure. Um and time to reflect on it. I haven't got a huge amount of reflections on it, you know? A lot of people have, but I haven't. I've got more reflections on the year at Everton and the 18 months at Chelsea before and Derby. This this period was so abstract in a way for me. That interim role was so different that I I can't put it into a context of like, I wish I'd gone in a meeting on day one. If I'd have done a meeting about culture, I think they would have they would have changed. Like, I don't it wouldn't have changed, you know? If my tactics were slightly different that game, I don't believe it would have changed. And me, overthinker, I would definitely think that. If it was there. So, you know, I might be right or wrong, but so I don't So, relief and a and a feeling of like, I wish I'd gone better, you know? Like, that's human nature, you know? I wanted it to be better cuz I'm a Chelsea person, you know? The Chelsea fans were fantastic with me. And in this modern world, I'm not saying flick online, you'll find everyone fantastic, but in terms of it at Stamford Bridge, I think there's an understanding at the moment that the club's not where it wants to be. And Chelsea fans are actually pretty good with that. There's some other clubs that would be like, we lost at home to Brentford 2-0 and like there'll be some clubs that would be fans that would be a bit more vocal. They were actually pretty good. I think, you know, they're they're waiting to see something better this year, but they've also Chelsea fans watched the team in the second division in the in the '80s and and seen some struggles over the years, you know, the older fans. And so, I do think that the success that they've enjoyed as a club for these 20 years or so, there's a real appreciation of it. And, you know, they don't want it to go on forever, but I do think they understand it's a difficult moment. I certainly felt that at Stamford Bridge. Yeah, they were super. They were chanting your name even all traffic when I was there. Yeah. Um even though the the score line wasn't great and I actually do think that the Chelsea fans have understood that the new ownership, what you said, to their intentions are good. Yeah. And I think they can they can respect they've bought really good players. There's a transitional moment, but I think they they will appreciate that. Um All of that stuff, all of that noise online, Christine, you, family, you said mention scrolling online. How does one uh keep those two worlds apart so that you can focus on your job without letting the outside world in too much? What is have you got a strategy? What what's your I don't scroll too much. scroll? Do you scroll at all? Very, very occasionally. Do you have the apps? The social networking apps and stuff? I have Instagram. Right. Okay. Which I'm not very I have an Instagram page, but I'm not very active on. It's just not really me. Um so I don't really scroll I scroll for like nosiness, you know, what's everyone up to and you know, a few friends and stuff or whatever. Um but I don't actively do it because uh it's I don't have the time to do it in terms of myself. It's just not something kind of I appreciate anyone else wants to show themselves, you know, somebody then or in the gym. Like that's their prerogative. I've got no problem with that. I just it's for me it's just not something I do and then think that's a nice line. I'm quite a boxer in my life. When I say that I'm going to box off things and when I want to box off I don't want to hear that um that that you know, what some fan in so-and-so is going to say about me here and flick on the the comments from a Chelsea post. I would just flick by that. I I try and stay aware of media because I think it's I do press conferences every four days. You have to understand what the tone is of what maybe people are writing about you or you know, the journalists. How how do you do How do How do you do that? Is Have you got like a someone that comes and briefs you in the morning? And they tell you what you need to know. Yeah. Uh okay. Yeah. Yes, and I would have I would tap into a bit in the week whether I'm flicking on certain websites through the week. And I wouldn't obviously go in as I said into the story into the comments. I would kind of go into it because you've got to be across things. I would do that, but I think it's very unhealthy to to scroll. Like, I I found that as a player my playing career missed out the social media. Came in towards the end. I'm so thankful that it did. We used to just have the newspapers giving us like three out of 10 when we played for England and we got knocked out of the World Cup. And that was hard. It was like looking at the paper to see what they gave you. And that was the version of that. And then the social media so I I don't envy the the modern player. As a manager, I think it's a bit different. I'm not in a place where I scroll so I don't envy these younger players, men and women now, that are coming through and are have sort of household names and are getting so much attention and so much of it's negative. I think it's incredible that we've got to that stage that there's that amount of hate for but it's so easy to be hateful. Um and my my my I would try and say to the young players, don't look at it, but the minute the game finishes they're flicking and it's it's difficult. In your professional career, what what has been what do you kind of count down as the hardest moment in terms of scrutiny? In your professional and like your playing career and your managerial career. What is what has been that the hardest moment for you? Playing for England. Really? Yeah. The 2006 the 2006 World Cup. I think I had broke the record for shots at goal without scoring. Classic. Wasn't there just a loud one that should have gone in? That was in 2010. So, 2006 I think I had like 32 shots or something. I went in as England player of the year. I'd had a good year or two playing for England. So, I'd got myself in there and was becoming, you know, a you know, in a fiction of a team. And then I went there having scored some goals in the lead up, scoring at Chelsea and just had a tournament and it wouldn't go in for me. And then that played on my mind in games. I was like second guessing myself a little bit in the game. And probably off the back of that there's a lot of criticism um for myself, for some others. I remember us Chelsea boys getting a lot of criticism for the next 6 months every away game that we went to it was like you let your country down. The song. How does that compare to being a manager in terms of criticism? I found it harder as a player. I don't know whether it's just maturity. Um because uh as a player I don't know it maybe it's in my 20s. Um I found it harder. As a manager I think it's a it's a different version of criticism. And um I think as a player you I don't know why. I found it harder. If I'm a fly on the wall after a bad defeat, what do I see? You'll probably see a bit of a of a face, you know, and then and a and a and a going over the situation kind of face. Um and it's different. I I have certain games that they will affect you and it might not be the one you'd expect, you know, the Manchester United you talked about there we lost 4-1 was it? That one might be different because I kind of know where we're at this this season's petering out, you know, we played some good stuff, you know, whatever. And there might be another game that, you know, we we really lost and it really affected me because maybe think something I did or should have done or a substitution. So, on those bad ones you would see the face and you know, like I would you know, I kind of go into my shell. I'd start to not like I'm sulking in my bedroom. I'm big big boy, you know, um but you know, maybe have a glass of wine chewing it, don't get to bed till quite late and then you have to go again, you know, like it's that great sort of adage that you can people go you learn more from defeat. You don't feel like that straight away, but you have to be big enough to go over the game again. What's the strategy now? What's the you know, the solution to that? What did we do wrong? And and that's what it is. You can't get too down, but we're all human. When you were um 29 years old um one such moment occurred in your life that really I think from your own words tested you at a much deeper level. You described yourself as being a zombie for a year after the passing of your mother. She died at 58 years old um while you were playing and while you were playing at the very very highest level. That for me struck when I was reading through you the way you described that moment in your life struck me as a real sort of destabilizing moment in terms of focus and all of those things. The question that I um the question that I had is how as a player when you're playing at the highest level and you have something like that happen, how do you show up and maintain those standards and be Frank Lampard? That's probably what I meant when I said zombie because it became autopilot. And I think um when you talk about mental health, that's the one time that I've been challenged to the extreme with it. And you know, a lot of people go through this. And that was the really interesting thing I found cuz I have some perspective now these years later is that when it happens to you and it's unexpected, it's very sudden for me. You You've never thought about that kind of thing happening before. The only The only thing I'll say is this, I was a I was a mummy's boy as I've said before. So I used to have these weird um moments. I don't know if you have them. I I have them sometimes when I think about death and I kind of go Oh god, when you die, you there's nothing. And I have those moments and it hits me in the stomach for about like 4 seconds. I'm driving along and I'm like there's nothing. I'm like there's absolutely nothing. And then you go I got to go I got to go to life carries on. And I used to have that with my mom. I don't know if it was probably reliance I had on her. She was like I was so like mummy's boy, you know, growing up. But I remember as I got a little bit older like to my teens and I was like imagine mom wasn't there for a moment. It was a panic for like 10 seconds. I remember them. And then because it I was 29 as you say and it was very sudden. I was at a in a hotel um that we used to stay at pre-game. We were playing Wigan on the in the evening at home. I got a call from my sister telling me that she'd fell ill. And then so I kind of went okay, she's going to the hospital. Okay, that's a bit dangerous. So we went to sleep. I didn't sleep. Supposedly we'd sleep. I was kind of lying there a bit like tossing and I couldn't get off. I'm I'm angsty. I got another call. And then as we get on the bus to go to Stamford Bridge, it's like two a mile. I get the call that no, no, she's getting much worse. So I'm like right, I'm in I'm in Frank I'm a sportsman go and do your job mode. And then I just kind of broke a bit on the coach. Kind of went I mean I felt myself go gray and someone said to me I was you were in gray." But I felt myself go like, "Oof." Anyway, just got to the stadium, said to the manager, "Manager, this is what's happening." And he was like, "Go." So, I was like, in my tracksuit, drive over to East London, mom's in hospital. So, when I get there, mom's now in the on on on the verge of going into intensive care. So, she's got the stuff on and stuff. And I walk in, I'm in my tracksuit. And my mom had the oxygen mask on. And she hadn't been speaking. She'd So, she's taken really ill in the day. And she lifted her um a mask and said to me, "What are you doing here?" So, I'm in my Chelsea tracksuit. And I and I didn't know what to say cuz I didn't want to go, you know, "I'm here cuz this is a really bad situation." I mean, "I'm just here to see you, mom, you know." And then sort of put the mask back on. And then she was really And then they kind of wheeled her in. She held my hand, which I'll never forget. And then she went in and was put into intensive care. So, that was one a one-week process of my mom in intensive care. So, um she started to get better. Um and then um few of the family were kind of getting not excited about it, but it was like, "That's progress, you know, mom's out." She'd been on on every machine possible. And I'm still having to think about going into work. I can't remember if I trained that period. I can't remember that week. That's like a blur. I just remember being at home a lot, you know, in really, you know, in a in a bad way. Um and then we had Champions League games coming up against Liverpool. I played one away. I came back, mom was getting a bit better. And then we got the phone call that she'd passed away. She had a brain hemorrhage. So, just as she was getting better, everyone was excited, she passed away there and then. So, it was like the the biggest devastation. I can't explain. And as I say, years later, I realized that this happens to so many other people. And when you're a young man with who hadn't really lost anyone, you don't have that real feeling of what that is. And I lost the person that was the closest person to me, you know, everything to me. And I'll never forget the feeling in my stomach. If I talk about it, I get it instantly again. Um and um I lost, you know, what was my best friend, the person that had given me all that that kind of emotion stuff I'd spoken about, the warmth, and the the sudden feeling that someone's not going to be with you. Like, it doesn't compare to anything when you're that close. Um, so, you know, in terms of work after that, probably some of it, if I look back, I probably go, "Maybe I should have just come out of it." Like, life is bigger than that, but it was like my probably a a tiny coping mechanism for me. We played a game a game against Liverpool, the second leg, and I scored a penalty. We won the game. Now we're getting sent to the Champions League final. And I remember sitting in the dressing room afterwards, and I had this almighty um, like sense of s- of of fatigue, and, you know, body and mental fatigue. Uh, and I went home, and sort of opened a beer, and I couldn't even drink it. I went to the bed, and it was like it was like everything came out of me then of like a week or two of full blast of of this pain. You know, it's it's this complete pain. And then you lose your best friend and then the person that, you know, I've still got a number in my phone, and I've still got a couple of voice note We were never a big family for videos and stuff, and I I wish we were. Um, the only thing I have is my mom's sister is Sandra, Sandra Redknapp, Harry Redknapp's wife. And every time I speak to Sandra or hear my mom, they look very similar, they sound very similar, and it's like in the first period it was painful, now it's kind of nice, you know, because that's a a memory for me. But the the, you know, it's the the the feeling of grief, you know, I I it catches up with me now and again many years later. I think I probably had a year um, I was sort of single, I was like probably drinking a little bit. I was playing fantastic football. I had a really good year of football. It was weird. Um, and then I met Christine, and thank God Christine came along around that time because I was a little bit, you know, not not right in that period. So, it was a it was a it was a really, um, obviously, you know, anybody who loses someone so close to them, but she was so big in my life, and was such a balance in my life. And then, you know, that sudden thing is just terrible. Did Did Did you process that? Cuz it sounds like because you had football commitments back-to-back to that, that there wasn't really an opportunity to like sit and Yeah. I I don't know. I mean, I've been through the experience, and um the that zombie thing I talk about is like I I couldn't comprehend it. I felt empty and and weak, but I had a a job to do. And the job was so secondary. I I was certainly wasn't trying to be a hero. I just didn't know where it I think if I'd have laid around all day, I would have really taken more of a hit. It was almost like getting up and going to work in that period and having something to aim for was just almost like I've got I That's what I should do. And then, I definitely took the hit later on for that. I definitely took a kind of deferred moments of grief. And And I talk about them, like I say there, it could be anything that would be um a couple of glasses of wine and something said at a dinner table, uh a moment of someone else, and I feel bad about this, talking about their mother or something, you know, and they're talking glowingly about their mother. And And And you kind of get hit, you know, um or another parent's birthday, like crazy things I've got no right to be upset about, if you know what I mean, but just hits me. And you kind of And I That sort of get on with it like hard-nosed, get on with it, son, kind of feel feel, which has stuck with me. There was the one time I remember being absolutely broken and tested on that. Because I had that And I got some anger as well. I I remember used to I remember having road rage a couple of times, literally the few days after. I pulled out of my drive. And it It was a Chelsea game. So, I wasn't playing it because of what's happened, but I was at home, and I was driving to go and see my sister or something. Someone sort of drove across me, and I got out of the car, and I And I went for them. And it was a Chelsea fan. He went, "Frank, calm down." And I was like, "Ah, sorry." And I had these moments of anger in the period afterwards that would just come out of me out of nowhere. I wouldn't say I They've stuck with me from now, but it definitely changed me as a person. I don't I don't know how to explain it, but it definitely made me have a different take on things and be a bit more I don't know if ruthless is the word, but more you know that thing about kind of like cutting out some people that were in your life that you maybe would have got on with. I just kind of took a little bit more of a direct approach in my life after that. Amongst some serious moments of grief within it, you know, I it's uh it was a it's a tough time. The The The only benefit, it sounds really warped. I said this to someone the other day. The only benefit is it now you know, I I don't have to go through that again. That sounds really strange. It was such a tough period for me. That the only thing now when I see, you know, Christine's family are there and other people around me have friends and family and I I miss my mom so much like every day. And as time goes by, of course, things balance out. But, I can't envision ever going through that pain again about what I did cuz my mom was the only person who been Now now Christine is obviously that person in my life and my children, of course. But, in terms of what she meant to me at that time, the only thing is I I can go that is so painful. I I really couldn't go through that again now. That's It's a It's a weird way of looking at it. And I I hope that doesn't sound strange. It's just I I processing it was too difficult. And it's almost like uh it was almost like a dream. It was my life was never supposed to be like that in my head. You know, my mom was 58. And I felt like she was quite old. And now I start doing the math. I'm 44. You know, like and you kind of go it wasn't old, you know, like I was 29. And my mom felt a bit older at the point. Now it's like she should be mid-70s now. And you know, as I said, the sudden nature of it meant you couldn't speak to her as well, which is like as I've got older I realized that my mom would have known exactly how I felt about her. But, at the time it was like uh I want to say something more, you know, and couldn't. You want to say something more? Just like thank you. Do you know what I mean? Like thanks to um for being the balance, for being the one um who you know, in those tough moments when my dad was being harsh or something there, for being the one that would when I was crying in the bath after a game and coming and knocking on the door. So like for making me food. You know, like things a a great mother does. She just was that. You know, my mom was there to sort of it might be sound old school now and but she was a hairdresser by trade who then became a housewife and a mother. And you know, for everything that was going on in my family life and lots of things have, she was always the one that was like the the real stand up. When I look back now I I I understand it even more that she had the ethics and the everything about her. And then I would love to just be able to say that. You know, it's like those, you know, an emotional song can get you going. It's like I can I speak to her one more time to say, here's a monologue for you. You know, like just to to hear it. But I I with time I definitely have got more strength in the fact that she knew that. And that's that's it. And when everyone I speak to you says that you are that class act, you are the you're kind, you're empathetic, and all of that. Now I know where that's come that comes from. No, I don't I don't know. Listen, I I I knew you were going to ask me this because I've seen you you know, it wouldn't you know, it's it's part of my story. And I didn't want to cry. I'm surprised I haven't. Um but cuz I've cried probably enough at different times. Um but it's um it's almost something like it is strangely therapeutic to speak about it and this is very public and that's not normally how I am. I'm very private. Our lives are Christian and very private. It's how we like to live. And sometimes when those moments where I say the really grief-stricken moments over a glass of wine, I kind of feel better after them because that's probably what I held in when I was like hitting that penalty when and people give me huge pla- maybe when you scored that penalty when your mom had just died as if it was like a hero moment. It wasn't. It was me just kind of going I got to try and do this and and and do my job. And then these moments now sometimes are quite therapeutic if I'm honest, but it's uh you know, I especially for other people that have gone through that and much worse. You know, a lot of worse things can happen in different ways. But until you feel that loss, you know, I remember I actually remember thinking when I lost mom it was like a couple of my friends lost their parents when they were younger. And I remember then thinking I've never really broached that subject with them. You know, a couple of my friends were like 14 and lost I met at school at that age who had already lost their parent or were in the process of and I never really kind of went and they and they were like 14, I was 29. And I'd never even not thought about it, but you know, you kind of go, "Oh, I'm sorry, mate." And then you move on and you go, "Imagine you know, all the things and I had to process at 29." It's slightly different. But those things so it, you know, life kicks you sometimes and that was the biggest kick I think I'll I I've had till this point, you know, and hopefully um for a long time. Do you talk about your emotions with Christine? Yeah, I do. I do. I think I'm quite good about that. She will say to me sometimes I'm quite closed Yeah. to that stuff. And then that kind of kicks me into talking about it cuz They're really good at that, aren't they? Yeah. My girlfriend's really good at that. Annoyingly good at that. Yeah, no, they're really good. And I don't mind she sees me going into the zone kind of thing sometimes and she'll be like, "What's bothering you?" And I'll go, "Oh, well, it's this." You know, it's probably something that's irrelevant or something, but Is that the first answer you'll give cuz mine's usually nothing? Yeah, yeah, nothing. I'll do that too. No, I'll definitely do that too. Cuz no one will open the box. No, no, that's right. It's But it's good. I think cuz like I definitely want to don't come across as this, you know, like I said like this get on with it thing. It's certainly not me. I look at myself as being, you know, the the balance again of my mother was that one that she gave me that kind of empathy. I I associate all the empathy with my mother that I had because that's how she was was always with me. So when I, you know, it's just I also have a mechanism that kind of keeps it there. But it's definitely inside and you know, maybe children also help with that because when you see your child and their smiles and their sort of innocent nature and how they are, I think that also helps you become a little bit more emotional because you start to care about that more than pretty much anything else, which is which has also been a beautiful thing. Over the last few years I've realized that my first foundation is my health, something you've heard me talk about a lot. Nothing matters more than that first foundation. So, that is why I'm so excited to be involved with a company like Whoop, who are leading the charge when it comes to bettering your health. All my friends have received free Whoops from me because once you've tried Whoop, I think it's like lights turning on to your health. That's the only way I can describe it. My sleep, my performance, my recovery, my stress, it's like someone turned the lights on. I'm sure you guys know, but for those that don't know what Whoop is, it's a wearable health and fitness coach that provides you with the feedback and actionable insights into your sleep, recovery, training, stress, and overall health. And I have become entirely, utterly obsessed with it. If you know me well enough, you know how obsessed I am with the smallest details. I think the small things compounded together produce the biggest gains in our life. And that is exactly what Whoop does in my health and fitness every single day. Being able to see my 1% gains on Whoop has had a profound impact on my health journey. I highly recommend you try it. All you have to do is search join.whoop.com/ceo to get a free months Whoop membership on me. And if you do, send me a DM and let me know how you get on. I'd love I'd love I'd love to know. A quick word on Huel. As you know, they're a sponsor of this podcast and I'm an investor in the company. One of the things I've never really explained is how I came to have a relationship with Huel. One day in the office many years ago, a guy walked past called Michael and he was wearing a Huel t-shirt. And I was really compelled by the logo. I just thought from a design aesthetic point of view, it was really interesting. And I asked him what that word meant and why he was wearing that t-shirt. And he said, "There's this brand called Huel and they make food that is nutritionally complete and very, very convenient and has the planet in mind." And he the next day dropped off a little bottle of Huel on my desk. And from that day onwards, I completely got it because I'm someone that cares tremendously about having a nutritionally complete diet. But sometimes, because of the way my life is, that falls by by wayside. So, if there was a really convenient, reliable, trustworthy way for me to be nutritionally complete in an affordable way, I was all ears, especially if it's a way that is conscious of the planet. Give it a chance. Give it a shot. Let me know what you think. What's the future like for you, Frank? What do you think? I don't know. I might I'm very It's hard to know. A lot of people can say to me, "Oh, you should now get into punditry. It's easy. Put your feet up. Do what you know." That's And it's certainly I get my um enjoyment, I get my gets my blood flowing, and it's working and being a coach. So, that's what I want to do, and I'm in no immediate rush to do it. The reality is off the back of Everton and Chelsea, it's probably time for me to take my time anyway. Because of what opportunity there might be out there, there may be no opportunity. There may be something that comes up that I want to look at and say, "Does that work for me on all on all purposes?" Because I get your point with the Chelsea one. It's like, "Did you really need to take that?" And the the jobs I've taken have been quite challenging. And a lot are. I'm not saying I'm going to be given this like, "Here you go. This is going to be great." So, I would probably try and choose well without sounding too picky because, you know, I will want to work. Um and in the meantime do the things that make me happy, which is being around my family. I like to travel. It's like the one thing that I um really like to spend my money on. But, you know, it's when I when I travel, I want to go better than home. Mhm. And if I don't go better than home, I'll stay at home. And I have a I've got a nice house. You know, so I we we love that. So, I'll you know, use the time to travel a bit, be with the family and my children, spend more time. My elder daughters are doing A levels and GCSEs now. And be be around that, and that's nice. And sometimes, you know, I think that's good for me because I am so driven. It's like, I feel like I should work. I should work. And actually, sometimes you go, "Actually, I'm 45, and I've done all right in my life. Maybe I don't need need to work." And that And that's not a bad place to be. I'm fortunate. I don't I have gratitude for that. So, at At moment, it's the gratitude of that, enjoy it, and then try and work again. And what would be what would be your sort of sort of decision-making framework when people call and they say, "What about this job? Or what about this?" What's the How would you decide whether it's worth taking that? Well, it's hard to say, but from my experience, I would want to make sure I would want to have conversations to find out what the the job is. And I I can't I can't sit here, feel this way, and talk to you about being aligned, and then they need to feel the way that I'll be the coach, and they're going to do this, and work together. And probably take another job where it doesn't feel aligned. You know, I I I shouldn't um do that. So, I'd want to have a conversation and be like, "What What can I do for you?" I have to sell myself. Clearly, that's the point. But what can How will it work together? And maybe get something that feels a bit like an I don't mind. I'll work, you know, in in the UK, anywhere. I would travel if an opportunity came up. I would certainly prioritize a bit of family to make sure that it's something that works for my family. Um ideally. So, I don't know. I don't know about that one. Everyone seems to be going that way. They do. They do. I mean, I I I would prefer to stay in the UK, for sure. Um and I and I don't mind. I I went and lived in Everton for a year, lived in Derby for a year. I missed my family a lot, but you have to, you know, make those big decisions. We're fortunate in ways. But we'll um I'll see. I'll see what comes up. It's hard to call before it comes. If we sit here in 10 years' time and this chapter's this next sort of 10 years, this next decade has been a success, what does that look like? What would have had to have happened for it to have been a success this next decade? Well, 55-year-old Frank and me. 55, well, I'm here, so that's good. At 55, I think my, you know, obviously, the the family to be well and healthy. You understand that more when you hit for me, it was hitting probably 40. Health and understanding, maybe you check yourself more on those things and lifestyle. And then um to be, hopefully, have managed and had success coaching. You know, that's that's what I want to do. I can't see what that looks like, but I would love to be able to to show myself consistently in a job and what I can do. I haven't had that opportunity yet for whatever that was me or whatever as the circumstances have been to do that. So, I'm really determined to do that. I'm I'm good like that. I'm determined and I like to work. Like anyone who knows me will know that. Like regardless of what my career has been, if you put it in front of me, I'll tackle it head-on. And then, you know, I'm um I'm always trying to improve, so hopefully in 10 years I can show you that. There's got to be a part of you that wants to go back to Chelsea someday. Knowing that if I know you half the way I know you, there's got to be a part of you inside you that's like, "You know what? One day I'll I'll I'll go back." It's funny. You know, like you talk about should you have taken that job. I reckon if you'd have asked me that before going back, I might have said no. As in not like I don't want to go back to Chelsea, but I would have certainly seen myself no, no. Like that's chapter's done as a coach. But now I've been back, I would think about it even more. And it's strange. And I and I think, you know, the the fact that the ownership has changed at Chelsea and it's gone in a different direction. I think it can be a really positive thing for the club. I think people might not see that now, but I think it really can. Um but obviously I have a lot to do to be part of that ever. But like I I don't you have to make a clear decision. When we I played 13 years at Chelsea, I said I'd never play anywhere else. I ended up playing at Man City. Some people criticized me for that. It's fine. I didn't expect it, but Man City was an amazing experience. Went to New York City, it was an amazing experience. When you become a manager, you can't say I'm going to be Chelsea manager, I'm going to be this. You have to take the journey. Because that's the those are the rules for all of us. You know, you can be you know, success for a moment at Everton and everyone goes, "Well done, you stayed up." And then you and then next job, what is it? And I would you know, I have respect for so many big clubs that you know, there are certain clubs I wouldn't manage. I'm not going to declare them because that just sounds like cheap and but I think it's important I I respect my time at Chelsea as a player and what the club means to me. But I don't see it as the be-all and end-all, but as I say, having been back there, it did re-light a fire. I left Chelsea in COVID as a manager. So, I didn't have any fans in my my last period. So, I kind of walked out like a little bit through the back door. Um in a sense. Um and this time it felt different. And that wasn't a great period. But it is still a huge club for me, so maybe. I'm really excited to watch what happens next. Thank you. Um you did a great job at Derby. Obviously, then you got um Chelsea into the the Champions League. I think finished fourth that season um under a transfer ban. Mhm. And then you kept Everton up on the last day of the season, which again most people had kind of counted Everton out. So, obviously there was that interim period. I look It's funny cuz I'm going to be honest. So, I when when we were meant to have this podcast last time and then you called me um and said, "Listen, I can't come. Can't say you why." Um and I kind of put two and two together and figured it was the job. I looked at that and thought, "No, I don't know. Chelsea are 11th or 12th at the moment. Like what's what's the worst that can happen, really?" What I didn't know is the the back context. So, if I was in your shoes, uh in hindsight, and we don't have hindsight in in in the moment, I would have probably I would have not taken the job if I was in that situation. But in foresight, I definitely would have. Mhm. 100% for all the reasons you said. If Manchester United called me now, I'd take the job. Yeah. And I have no experience. Yeah. Yeah. So, but um but I think what we're going to I'm really excited to see what we see next from you in your your sort of managerial career because I mean, what you the experience you've had warts and all is worth a ton. Yeah. You know? Yeah. At all different levels, all different phases, transitional, relegation battles, all of that is worth more than a lot of successes are worth. And you've had that in a short window of time. So, really really excited about your next chapter, whenever it comes. Thank you. Um Is there anything at all you would say to Chelsea fans that are watching this now that are um that would love to, you know, Chelsea fans will be listening to this cuz they want to get A, your opinion on what's just happened, but they probably want to get your opinion on like what you think the future looks like, I guess. And also, I think a lot of them do want to like check in on you. Cuz since you've left, we've not really heard from you in such context. Yeah, and I've enjoyed that. I've enjoyed not speaking. It's been nice. Um No, I think for Chelsea fans, I would say that um uh in terms of what do I think is next, I I listened to Pochettino spoke yesterday. It was his first press conference and he he uh he spoke very well and he spoke about bringing a a unity at the training ground and a family feel and then winning, which is Chelsea DNA. So, I think they've got a really good manager in charge and I think the players will definitely develop with their, you know, as they as they develop naturally. They're good players, young players. There has to be some patience in putting that together cuz I think that's that has to be clear. And the owners have a big intention. So, I think as things settle, it may not be straight away, but I think that there's a really positive future for the club. And I was in it and it was tough, but you know, I know how quickly things can change if you get the strategy right. In terms of me, I'm absolutely fine and I I'd certainly appreciate the support I had from, as I say, a majority of lot of fans that would, you know, contact me or be at Stamford Bridge. And for anybody that was on the other side of that was like, "Why is Frank back in the job?" I I think they maybe I've explained some of my part in it today and some of the challenges. I'll always take responsibility. I wouldn't walk back into that challenge without sort of saying this might not go right and what's my responsibility. So, but Chelsea's always a huge club and as I say, I never went back to Chelsea until 3 days before I went and took the interim job manager and I went to to Liverpool game and end up having a conversation. And it was a difficult period for me for some reason. I I didn't I left in COVID, as I say, and I moved on to Everton. And it reignited that kind of feeling being back at Stamford Bridge, I have to say. Not that I lost it, it just reignited it. And you know, so to Chelsea fans, I don't know. I'm fine. I'm fine. I appreciate their support in my playing career. It's nice when you finish playing because your playing career is there and I can look back on it with a lot a lot of pleasure for a lot of the good moments. When you're in it, it's like, "What's next?" And you're sort of like always challenging yourself. When you finish, you kind of go, "Yeah, you know, that was good. That was all right. There was a lot of good stuff." So, they were good times, and I was very thankful to be part of a of a great club, and we'll see. You gave Mason Mount his start. Yes, I think he's a great signing for you. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Thank you for that. He's he's fantastic. Why is he leaving Why is he leaving Chelsea? He's born and born and bred, isn't he? Yeah, I think it's a it's a complicated one, and in the end, I think it's Uh he's got a year left on his contract. What I'll say about Mason is all the things I spoke about that you talk about like modern players and how the game's changed, he is a throwback to the attitude and the commitment and the quality that the you know, that was the the beauty of working with Mason was that he gave you so much in terms of his um uh effort every day. Anything you'd ask him to do was like, "Yeah." And he kind of got it. And I think any great player has to have that kind of intelligence and that desire about them, you know, like, "What do you need me to do? Like, be out I've got it and I'll do it. I'll repeat it." And also quality. So, in terms of what he'll bring to Manchester United, it won't just be what Mason brings. He will bring loads of talent that he's just going to go and levels around you. a bar raiser. Yeah, I I I think so. And and and don't get me wrong, the bar raiser is already there with Bruno Fernandes, Rashford, but he will Yeah, Casemiro. But, he will absolutely fit in with it. If you're trying to build, which you're saying you're a group mentality of a team and you know, players that are just going to give everything and have talent, which top team needs, he fits it. So, I've seen some sort of alternative reactions to that. It's like, "Oh yeah, Mason Mount's a good buy. Why would you pay that for him?" Mason Mount is going to be a fantastic player that my opinion. It's really nice to know cuz actually I was a bit on the fence in the in regards of don't really know the character of the man. And but I have heard from inside Old Trafford that Erik ten Hag Erik ten Hag is really ultra focused on exactly what you've said above everything else, he's focused on that like core Mhm. values. So, Casemiro, um Bruno, etc. etc. Mhm. And so, it's nice to know that Mason is a Yeah, he is. a bar raiser. Yeah. But, why is he leaving? Do you know? Um Seeking a different challenge or is it No, I don't think so. I think probably Mason would have envisaged 2 years ago that he'd stay at Chelsea for a lot of his career. I just think circumstances, his contract situation. Um I know he's got a big love for Chelsea. Um Also, in modern day, you know, I think more than more than even in my day, players do move. And I don't think, you know, for the challenge of moving, now it's come to that. For Mason, personally, is a is a good challenge for him. I would have liked to have seen him stay at Chelsea because I think he's he would have been central to it, but it didn't happen. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, and I have to say this is the longest question that has ever been left for anyone else. It's quite abstract Right. as well. So, we're both going to have to kind of figure this one out, but the question is you're going to be surprised by this. When broken down to its roots or origin, the word enthusiasm begins with en theos, which means with God. For people who have not identified something which they are truly passionate about pursuing, can you suggest a way to cultivate that enthusiasm? That is a good question, mate. Um So, I think the real question here is just in this line here, which is when for people who haven't identified something which they are truly passionate about pursuing, how do they go about that? Wow. Um Thanks for that one. Yeah, this is a good question, but then I don't know. Um This is a good point, actually, because my daughters now and my eldest daughter is going leave getting her A-level results this summer. Is talking about uni, but she doesn't really know what she wants to do. And I actually felt uh not bad. I I went to school, obviously, but my pathway, you know, looking back was like fortunately, start. Didn't didn't to think about much else. And I So, I haven't got any big answers for it. And also, like from a a modern woman, you know, where where is the path? What does she want to do? I asked her that question and she's not sure, which is completely understandable. So, for me, I think for her, if if if it's flipping it there, it's maybe it's maybe it's a passion or not. But my thing, and it probably goes back to my roots, is to the work ethic thing is what I say to her. It's to get out there and um get in the workplace and meet people. Because I think in the modern world with my daughters are so engrossed in social media. They have a lot of answers about life, you know? A lot of answers. And I'm like, okay, I don't agree with that one, but I'll let that one go. I don't agree with that one. And I start to feel like a dinosaur. But I do think that they kind of get caught up in that and all the answers are there. And I go, "Okay, what are you going to do then?" And they go, "I don't know." And you kind of go, "Okay, well, fine. You've got all this information. It's the modern world. But what are you going to do?" I go out and get a weekend job if you're going to go to uni. Go out and experience what the the real world is like rather than this alternative world that you're slightly looking at. And then I think something might ignite it. So, that was that was my And again, that's probably as deep as I could go cuz I don't care where it is. You could be in a coffee shop, you could be in a this shop or that shop or whatever. But um this is my daughter's story, obviously. So, it was more about getting out and meeting people. And And I guess probably in in a in a And to bring that question back to me, myself going out of my comfort zone and leaving Chelsea to go to Man City and then living in New York for 2 years ignited a million things in me. And none of them were like big hobbies or something like that. It was just like, wow, there's a different world, a different culture, people who approach things with positivity and energy that I've never seen in England. And it changed my approach. So, maybe my answer would be come out of your comfort zone and do something which is different. I was fortunate to do that. I worked there. But I was living in probably what for me is possibly the best city in the world. And it changed me as a person. So, maybe, you know, to to get the passion, Mhm. try something. Take yourself out of the comfort zone and it might just appear for you. Makes perfect sense. And I think, yeah, exactly what I heard there is that often we when we're too within familiarity, we're not going to get the inspiration of what might be our passion if we're searching for it, but going to New York or um just getting out into the world and having experiences can lead us there. Yeah. Frank, thank you so much for your time today. And thank you for doing this cuz I I want to say like you um you are a man of your word. No, I am. Cuz we were going to do this last time, and you could have easily not done it, but you messaged me and said I want to get that back on because I said I would. Mhm. Um and again, that's just another example of you just being a class act. The whole process of you canceling last time cuz you got the Chelsea job and then coming back. You've just been an absolute class act. Um you're a man where no one can question your your integrity and your principles. And then on top of that, I I've I've see a man who is um incredibly keen to work and do well in whatever he applies himself to. And because of that, you've led this fantastic career both as a professional football player and as a manager, which is, I think, you're just halfway through. And there's this whole new season as you get up to, you know, you 45 years time, you're going to be 90. And I'm I'm so excited to watch that story unfold because of all the wisdom you've garnered in the last 45. So, thank you for being an inspiration to me, for giving me so many great um memories in football as an England player, Right. less so as a Chelsea player You guys were really good. Through that that that's that period. So, um but it's a real honor to get to know you. And um yeah, thank you for all your wisdom. And thank you very much. Thank you. If you've been listening to this podcast over the last few months, you'll know that we're sponsored and supported by Airbnb. But it amazes me how many people don't realize they could actually be sitting on their very own Airbnb. For me, as someone who works away a lot, it just makes sense to Airbnb my place at home whilst I'm away. If your job requires you to be away from home for extended periods of time, why leave your home empty? You can so easily turn your home into an Airbnb and let it generate income for you whilst you're on the road. Whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or for something a little bit more fun, your home might just be worth more than you think and you can find out how much it's worth at airbnb.co.uk/host. That's airbnb.co.uk/host.