Flock 2025 Fedora Council AMA

I think we'll go ahead and get started without EA, but hopefully she'll be able to join us soon. Um, so, uh, yeah. Um, this is a council ask me anything session. Uh, we got a few online and Oh, cool. E is here. Um, >> a wizard is never late. [laughter] >> Okay. >> Okay. Uh, so I I'm I'm going to start out with a question that I have because I can do that and that is so often we start by introducing ourselves. Um, Brandon's asked us not to do that, but um, when if you answer a question, you should briefly say who you are and why you're answering this particular question. U, we don't need answers for everybody on everything, but that's it. Uh my question though is what is the thing here at Flock that you found the most exciting new thing either from a hallway track or a session or something that you've you um has caught your interest start there. >> Anybody? >> Well, I'll talk because I'm new. >> So, uh first of all, apologies to everyone who had sessions. Uh I will be watching a lot of things tonight. um with uh a drink in hand, but or when they're available to uh when are they going to be available? >> 7 p.m. >> Great. Hey, I'm Jeff Spalta. I'm the new FPL. Uh so, uh I spent a lot of time in the hallway track today and yesterday. Uh and I actually had really good conversations specifically with uh our community who were involved with hardware enablement. Uh I had some really great discussions about uh possible things that we could be doing uh to sort of uh make things easier for for the wider ecosystem. Um not just in the Fedora project specifically, but all the downstream we've collected now. We are actually a very vibrant ecosystem with several downstreams and um it's sort of I'm trading on ancient history. You know, it's one of the promises that we sort of talked about a possible future years ago and it's sort of here now and I'm super excited to be the one who has the opportunity to move that forward or ruin it. Uh we'll find out. So, >> okay. I'm Alexandra. I've been here for quite some time but currently I work as in redhead as a manager of a cockpit team. So for me this vlog Fedora server talk was quite interesting and inspiring because uh there was some in interest to the cockpit development and possibility for the community to like create the tools for themselves to manage servers in a more fun way and there's a lot of opportunities which I would probably bring back to my team and discuss next week in couple of next weeks. So I'm quite inspired by that. Um, yeah. So, I'm just going to be a little bit more uh general because I've seen it at a flock last year and I'm I'm so impressed to see it at Flock again this year. But it's the diversity that we bring to this this event. Like we have people from ARM giving talks. Thank you, Peter. That was a good dig out. We have people from Alma Linux. Thank you, Jonathan. Another last minute good dig out. But like there are so and basic there are so many projects that we collaborate with that are able to come here and share in this Fedora event with us that they do so much for us. But also within our own project where we have so many different like streams of activities too with the the DEI and the mentor summits and all and the docs like I mean you can go on it's it's endless. It's amazing to see the the spread that you can you can enjoy at Flock and I hope to continue to see that. Um I'm a bit biased but I will also mention actually the mentor summit uh and especially because we this year we did the lunch matching uh mentor menty lunch matching and it was like really nice because first it was like the first time doing it so we didn't know how if it would work like well how people would perceive it and it was like really nice seeing people sharing their experience with the others and today we had the stickers matching as well which again was something new it was first thing in the morning. So, it was like great to see people there networking, talking with each other and I I really enjoy it. I'm a bit biased because I'm also part of the organizing team, I must say. But for me, that was like one of the highlights. >> I think it's great when you're excited about your own thing. That's awesome, actually. Um I promise to be part of the mentor lunch matching thing next year. I didn't do it this year on purpose because, you know, enough going on. Um, I don't promise to be part of a first thing in the morning sticker matching thing, but if we do it like an evening sticker matching thing, I'm I'm in for that. >> What? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, fine. I can't help it. I'm used to it. >> Good. >> Uh, hi. I'm Justin. Um, for me, I don't know if it's really learning something new, but the two weeks before flock are like the big crunch burnout kind of period where I'm running around and it's all chaos. But the thing that always in the three years, you know, I've been I've been going to this event for the last decade and the last three have been part of what I've been organizing in my role. And every time, even with all the craziness and the stress and the anxiety that happens before, I get here and I see all these familiar faces, these new faces, and the community feeling that I get just from seeing all of these folks from all over the world. kind of building on Epha's comment about diversity, I guess, but even more specific, it fills my my cup in this way that is I can't put it really into words. And so when I'm here and I see all of this come together and people having a great time and I feel like we've done a lot of great improvements this year from the last couple ones, too. So for me, seeing the iteration of Flock continue to evolve and change and try new ideas and to see that community feeling persist as we try new things and we we mix things up in our recipe for flock. That for me is just I don't know if you really call it a learning, but it just it it warms my heart. So that for me is just seeing that same feeling persist. That for me is the the special part. I almost got out of going. >> No, no, I'll I'll go. Um, I'm uh David Canantrell. Um, it I waited till the end because I was trying to think through all the sessions I I went to. Um, if I had to pick one right now that that was most impressive to me was uh one that I used to work on a long time ago, which was the Anaconda presentation. And uh many of you know that I I spent a very long time working on Anaconda and have not been part of it for a while. But seeing what they're doing now, integrating that into cockpit and and kind of in a way having to solve the same problems that we solved like over and over. Um it it just to me it was really interesting to see that come together and it reminded me that all the stuff that we work on software is never really done. we just decide to stop working on it at some point. And I think that will always be true. So, we'll always have, you know, something to do and something new to share. [snorts] >> All right, audience questions. Do we have an audience mic or >> We have some audience questions. We also maybe want to start with the presubmitted as well before we >> I was going to get to the presubmitted when we have a quiet though, but he first one Peter Um, so in some regards the council seems to be somewhat quiet. Um, I've heard the term absent used. Um, it took them 6 months to reply to one incident in the community. There's some stuff around open H264 that has blown up on LWN um that the council hasn't mentioned anything about yet. Um how is the council going to be more present moving forward? take a stab at this. >> I don't have an answer. >> Yeah, I'll I'll take a a stab, but I will also correct that while while your statement is true that it was 6 months before and I assume you're referring to the the proven package incident, the elephant in the room. Surprise. Um, correct. Yeah, we were >> I know. I know. I mean, look, well, that's what what we're here for. Yes, the council did take their time publicly actioning a statement on that, but we weren't inactive on it for those six months. Um, there was conversations it was, but I do completely acknowledge that they were private conversations and that doesn't really go toward like the transparency that our community comes to expect. So, I mean, all I can say is going forward, we will certainly have to try and get a bit more visible in our conversations. We do ask for a little bit of grace that sometimes the conversations we have to have are by nature quite private. They can be a little bit controversial and they're they're not easy decisions like [laughter] you know we're we're the bad guys. We are the neck to choke. So we do ask for a bit of grace while we're trying to improve how visible we can be when we're making these decisions in the future. Um someone else can comment on the the HW stuff. Yeah, I can also add like uh when it does seem like we're quiet, it doesn't mean we're not uh working on the issue, but we are understanding that uh when console makes a public statement, it has a lot of weight and it has a lot of impact. we are we cannot rush into anything uh really fast and like we try to address uh issues as fast as we can but like the first reaction which we would issue is uh like uh stop anything from changing so that we have more time to figure out the better strategy going forward and it does take quite a lot of time in certain cases and a lot of private time sometimes because like we are dealing with the sensitive issues quite quite often. So I would say it is in in nature of a console to be uh slow but like responsible on what statements we make and why and how we have to really be careful about this kind of decision making. It cannot be rushed too much uh into even when there is a demand. So like in worst case scenario we just say uh really going publicly with a statement please wait for us this is our best statement we can issue really fast and then we have some time to figure it out >> and I'll build on that too that you know and I think part of what adds to the perception of slowness is and kind of this is not true of just Fedora but in general with open source communities is that especially in the way that our community is structured We do spend a lot of time like trying to do that community outreach and having personal conversations with people and that's part of what this, you know, the private work is. It's not all of it, but it's a definitely a big part. Um, however, I I I disagree with the presumption that the council is absent. I definitely understand why it's perceived that way. And I think something that has been maybe this could be actually a a big learning for me from Flock, but one thing that's definitely on my mind is that thinking about how with Fesco that's been around for I don't know 15 20 years or so and has mostly had the same process and the same way of working and people know what to expect and where to ex where that information is going to be and the council does not quite have that consistency that FESCO has. So I think also even when we are working on issues as the council and we are actually communicating we're not consistent in how we communicate and those things aren't happening in always the same place. Um I think there is a need for the council to formalize how we do our communication so that as a group we consistently follow that when we reach that point of like building that consensus and we're ready to move forward. I think we also need to be more transparent about like how we're moving through that process. So I see it more as a communication failure I guess on our part. >> Sorry I'm going to continue talking [laughter] until Matthew stops me. I also want want to mention that there is a difference between uh as Justin mentioned like fesco and council committees. A fesco works on a scoped number of topics and console works as a catch all for whatever when we don't know what to do we have to do it. And uh this means that while we aim to create better processes for something whenever we meet something for the first time this is like the console typical console work is to see the issues for the first time. Once we see them for the second or the third time, we you usually have all protest and have way to delegate them to someone else. Console by nature deals with issues which are like crisis which happened which has never happened before and then we're figuring our way. So it is a messy process by by definition because you cannot prepare for things you don't know about and then you'll have to just deal it. So yeah uh for me like half of the console work is like planned work towards certain strategic goals but the other half of the console work is crisis management which is crisis management in a way as as as best as we can but never prepared for it properly. >> Go ahead. >> Okay. So I have a question because there's like the inside view and the outside view and I think if you're a member of the council you're working on this thing every day or this series of things every day and it feels very busy and you're going as fast as you can externally because of the sensitive nature of these things. We don't actually see that work and it's right that we don't see that work. Uh but there are ways in which you can communicate we are working on these things. uh would you be open to feedback or suggestions on how to do that communication like and if so what is the right way to provide that feedback? >> Okay. Yeah, sure. I'll I'll go again. Yes. Um we're always open to feedback. It's the nature of open source communities is you get it whether you want it or not. Um and you have to be gracious and accepting that sometimes the ideas that you get that you don't agree with are good. Um, we had actually a sit down for the first time ever with members of FESCO. They provided some good insight as to how council could even provide them with a bit better understanding and insight as to what we're working on. They suggested um a council announce list to catch those who are on the the mailing list. Um, how you can provide feedback or ideas that you have to us. Oh god, it's a it's going to be the open a ticket, but I I don't I don't know. Do we have a a good way to suggest otherwise? But Matthew might. So I'm going to pass it to him. >> The council tag on discourse is a good place. >> Oh yeah, Matthew wants to do discourse. Yeah. So >> we do have quite a lot of topics on the discourse right now. I think by default this um so we have console announcements which go like public and visible for everyone immediately on the front page. But we have also a separate category for like console work in discourse which is excluded from uh default uh view and you don't uh like if you just log into discourse to ask fedora question you don't see all these console ticket uh discussions which we have on discourse on your front page you have actually go and look into it so maybe this is what we can change a little bit but uh there's also like a question. Do you want to be interrupted with all these console topics while you're doing your regular Fedora work? How much you actually want the visibility of this to get in your way while you're just like looking for some Fedora related funny information? Uh so there is um console work is open. We close only certain private communications which are very special in in nature. But um yeah, the question is should we actually force you to see them [laughter] immediately while you're doing your regular work? That's um feedback is welcome on that part. Let us know what you think and let us know how we can make it more accessible to you. So currently the council is formed by uh several I think it's six members permanent members like um two three I'm counting yes I think it's six and then two elected members. So assuming that none of you uh none of the council members work full-time in C council staff. So you have other responsibilities in Fedora and in other jobs. I have the feeling and that council could benefit a lot from help from the outside. So council can be council members could be the ones making the decision but for sure doing their work. You could use help from other people and I have the feeling that people feel that they cannot help if they are not elected members. and how how could you work uh to change that in the future that feeling? >> I I'm actually going to reverse the question as a former member of the Fedora Council from your experience. Where do you see some of the opportunities? Because I think you have a unique perspective on here because a lot of the folks that have been on the stage with some exception have been doing this for close to a decade, probably even more, some a little less. So I think you as one of the more recent members of council, I'd be actually curious to see like what what do you feel like what are the opportunities and then perhaps we as the council can comment on some of those too and expand on it. Does that make sense? >> Yes. So there there are plenty of opportunities almost everywhere someone from the outside can help maybe for some sensitive super controversial topic incident you cannot but if you uh the AI policy you can help there the whatever something council is organizing you can help there um processes you can help there you can provide feedback you can provide ideas you can write down the processes make proposals Because the problem that I see is that there are a lot of ideas. Every council meeting it's like an idea generator but that's perfectly fine but someone needs to do it and you cannot do it at all. So I'm giving you that. So I think it's okay to have ideas but it's also even better to have people actually doing everything. Uh and you can use some help. So I I think it's sure people could volunteer and say, "Hey, where I can I where can I help?" But it's complicated and usually it works better the other way around like, "Hey, we need help. Who who wants to >> like I like the question and with the topic you you raised. I'm not sure like how do we frame the actions uh in in this case. So let's let me put it this way. All the console work goes in in public. We have public meetings. We have public discourse. We have public uh tracker. And of course as any other project in Fedora or in upstream whatever we are open for uh people to contribute and uh for like to give an example we console runs a survey. We did make a call for people to come work with us on the survey console creates AI policy. We did make a call to uh uh come and work with us on AI policy. Uh we console has initiatives there is there and so on. So um we do want this for people to come and join us. We do have possibilities. So uh the question would be have we communicated them well and where we communicated them right um I did communicate on social networks that's probably not a good [laughter] reliable answer on this we do communicate on uh blog articles in Fedora magazine I think and again discourse but how we make it more accessible again this There's a question. Where do you read where would you expect to read this calls? >> Well, it's not only about the media. It's not like a physical or the virtual place where you put the information. It's more about create um welcoming space so people is not afraid to volunteer like hey I feel invited to participate not not sure I know that uh the AI policy stuff and that you call for help but maybe I'm thinking oh maybe I I am not prepared I don't know enough I don't whatever but maybe my opinion was useful so that was the case how the council can appear more um welcoming to the rest of the community members to encourage participation. That was the not not where do you place the information virtually or physically. >> I see where you're coming from. I think there's two points to consider here though. I think the first one is this ties back to what I said previously on the communication bit that as council we aren't communicating consistently and in the same channels and we're even as council members we use different platforms and channels and we're not consistent in that way. So I think and and it's not not a failure on anyone's part but it's just as this decentralized federated community we all and and as a lot of infrastructure change we've had especially in the last five or six years this fragmentation really hurts and I think council has been part of that fragmentation in terms of how we've tried to grow and evolve like we're using three different git forges and we have got docs I I see the challenge there and I think there's a really big piece in how we communicate it. I think the biggest way that the community can have input in the typical workflow of the council and this this also requires the council to communicate effectively and consistently. But where I see the most value is input like we're discussing a lot of difficult hard things and I'm looking at the issue tracker here about like you know what are things the community could help with. We have the of course the annual contributor survey you mentioned the AI policy as well like that's a great thing to have community feedback on. We also have some stuff on um oh where would it go? there was another one in here or like we're going to be working on these conflict of interest guidelines as well. So like there's things that are really important for us to get feedback from the community and even if it's not necessarily a commit in a git repository or editing documentation or editing wiki pages getting the community feedback on these big things that really are important and matter in the community. That's where I see like outside contributions to the council really being the most effective. But the council has to really >> I think also the council needs to go to the right source as well like I don't use discord a lot just simply because I don't have the bandwidth to go and read all the user stuff and if they need input on say AI policy maybe reaching out to devel as well and other such things and saying okay we need help on this particular thing so we should reach out into this section of the community instead of just dumping it on a like a council discord sub thing that people may not follow on a day-to-day basis because they have too much other stuff in their inbox so to speak. >> Um yeah, so uh just to offer a different uh perspective on this, I um my office is looking to build up a staff. I need a press secretary and a chief of staff. So, you know, if anyone wants to volunteer, I could definitely use help going through issues and you know, things like that. Can I get one too? [laughter] >> Yeah, that I was also your name on a web page. >> I wanted to say also like we we went very meta but like this what is one of the opportunities is where we as a console actually want to say tell you. So we are here just regular people. You can talk to us like with any other normal people. We have yeah we actually are willing to share all the information about our stuff what we're doing where we doing and so on. So if you have any interest in participating in maybe building a path to become a console member in two years or whatever just let us know. We we really have so much possibilities for you and we have so many people willing to uh like mentor you in those roles in whatever range of topics you're interested in. We will find something for you. Definitely reach out. [laughter] In the interest of time, I'm going to take one question from uh discourse. Uh we have one question from Edward who asks that the Fedor project is widely known for adopting new technologies early. The latest thing is Anaconda web installer. Uh his question is what new technologies are possibly coming that would be considered game changing and also the other question is how is the plan to drop old tech? >> Yep. Very painfully right. >> [laughter] >> to to be honest I'm a bit surprised when people call um Anaconda web UI new technology because [laughter] it's like it's anonda and it's web UI so this is not that much of a new stuff I [snorts] would say but anyway um essentially these are um the topics I think are not really uh the console scope hope on that level because like we have uh technical leadership done by Fesco and uh rolling out of new features, requirements to new for new features to be rolled out and uh deprecation of old features and requirements for that process are usually defined on the FESCO level so that we assess the impact on users. We understand the impact on the site pro on on dependent projects. we like plan for possible issues and we cover new features with enough testing and that's that kind of stuff. On the console side I would say we are supporting this whole process as a vision for the Fedora project to be the place where you can innovate and you do not just sit on the stable uh state of things but also innovate in a way that it doesn't break everyone's workflow. So, um, we support that, but we delegate the details to the FESCO committee to figure it out. >> We'll do a quick close and we probably have to do the last question and then we're done because we got five minutes. Well, I yeah, as engineering rep, I I guess uh probably the big things are the X11 versus Wayland um and and sort of pushing that more. Um but I want I want people to understand that that that doesn't mean we're getting rid of X11. There there are many many users in the community that that do depend on that. But it's more about pushing whan to to further develop it and get get more exposure for that. So that is a thing like Alexander was saying, you know, we don't want to break workflows for people and things like that. So these are topics that we consider uh very closely. And then I I would say the other big thing that that that we talk about quite frequently is um sort of a focus on immutable images and what that future is going to look like for uh Fedora. But I'm sure I can keep talking about plenty of these. Yeah. Hi. Uh, I'm new. So, I I'm gonna I'm gonna distinguish between my role as FPL and my seat here on the council. And I I I haven't been speaking because I want to let other council members talk, but as as my vision of the FPL is like I want to make sure I am not uh driving my opinion about what we should be doing, but I'm going to have discussions with people so I can lift up people who have who who share my interests, but they're doing the work, Right. My goal ultimately is to never take credit for an idea. I'm going to inceptioner many things and 10% of them will probably land and find um uh community fit. Like someone will like I'll see a light bulb go go off in someone's eyes like that's a great idea and then figure out a way to help them uh make it happen. So So the question was what are new technologies coming up? There's a ton of stuff I'd be interested in seeing but I'm not going to tell you here. no actual actual like real technologies that are Linux adjacent but um but the goal is to find the people who are excited enough to sustain the effort because because I have to be very careful if I if I opine right I'm going to set a vision that that is um unique to me and that's not the point the point is is to have the conversations sort of quietly so that I can uh find the people who will then support the work and you you're building ground swell uh in a in a more organic way. So that's a longer term play, right? Uh the other thing I am not shy about controversy. I will talk about controversial things. Uh however, we pro I probably can't talk about them while they're in process as a controversial thing. Uh you mentioned I believe the codec thing that hasn't been talked about yet. I think I am aware of it. I am looking forward to talk about it. Uh because um you know brief summary u when I'm president I will get rid of software patents. Um and that's all I'm going to say right now. But but I I look forward to doing retrospectives on things. But during during the actual uh uh when we're when we're in crisis mode and dealing with it, I we can't have discuss but we have to find a way to status uh the initiative stuff, right? The things that we the council is set up now where there are people who are on the council who who are driving initiatives and that absolutely needs to be statused. I think right now uh Matthew is the only one who's been sort of providing updates in discourse. Can you drop one like at the beginning of block for the the stat strategy 2028? Uh I I want to see that more frequently from the initiatives just so I know what's going on with the initiatives. U so so in terms of and that's planned work, right? But the unplanned work can't while we're in process >> for one more and then we've got >> but but the thing with like something like the codeex stuff counselor said nothing like I think someone needs to say something like person X is looking into this. We can't talk about it, but we're engaging with, you know, in this case Cisco or whatever behind the scenes. Watch this space because at the moment it's like pitchforks like you're making me vulnerable, you're not doing anything, blah blah blah blah blah. And that doesn't look good for the project. >> Yeah, that's a valid feedback. We should be clear on uh whether we are waiting for something or not waiting. This this is we should just take it as as yes but let let's let let let's let take last one from so [clears throat] Fedora has a big gap of a modern workflow that allows contributors to come and work with Fedora in the way that they expect from an open source project with a git forge with source code that's editable and so on. This has long-term strategic importance for Fedora. It drives contributors. What uh decisions have you been involved in recently or discussions have you been involved in recently around that topic? >> I want to actually insert and I want to put that to EA and Yona because we're at the end of the panel and also I feel like you two have a very different perspective that's not necessarily engineering focused and neither of you have spoken much in this panel. Um yeah, I can speak to the GF forge I suppose because I'm like loosely adjacent to it. Um yeah and in terms of the the council you know the responsibility does fall to us to kind of make some decisions around changing what git forge that we we are going to use as a project but we don't necessarily want to make that decision in like absolute terms. So we were we we we did our own prior selection and we narrowed it down to two that we seemed most viable and then we kind of tendered it out to like allies that we have in the project like the CL team who we trust to do that due diligence and look into all of those technical workflows and things and yeah it doesn't it does go largely back to Peter's original point and things like that of like that was probably invisible to most of you but do you want a leadership body to just railroad all decisions or do you want us to make the the smaller ones and then tender it out to the wider community to then do the actual like heavy lifting work that they know best at? So in terms of the council that's that's how we are engaging with the the Git Forge stuff. It was something that we requested but then we trust our community members to look into the choices we think might be best tell us what which ones we're right with which ones we're wrong with and then trust them to like work with us in the wider community to to make that better. I've forgotten the last part of the question. >> Does that does that answer it? Not really. >> I I think what what whatifa mentioned like this whole git forge uh which happened a discussion which happened recently. I I actually want to give credit to EA because she uh facilitated this discussion quite a lot working with CLA team and this is like one of the best examples of the console work which we have right now for reasons and like for because folks were really working together with uh redhead with CL team uh on figuring out all the requirements on uh um not just figuring out requirements but also figuring out the path how do we uh come to this decision making? How do we come to to the moment that we can make a decision? Because with this Git Forge conversation, we spent quite a lot of time and uh it was not just a question of saying yes or no like do we like that or do we not like that it was a whole lot of work to prepare for us to be able to make decisions and we finally made the decision. So this is a good example of what console work can be. I will add just oh [laughter] I will add just something that uh what I really like that ifa was doing is also bringing different stakeholders and uh she was asking also what are the teams that are using most that uh but not only the technical teams because we have also a lot of nontechnical ones using and then of course you know you have like kind of different requirements from all these teams and you will narrow it down because you cannot make everyone happy as well but still like having them uh bring bringing their voice, their perspective uh and trying to make best of that was really nice um part of the process. >> Thanks. I this wasn't just me. I have to give massive credit to Akash Deep Dar and Tamas Shakra and the CL team. But can I just also point out this was all in a public ticket too. So the fact that it went largely unnoticed probably goes back to Justin's initial suggestion that we need to standardize on our comms because if if you were all spending this AMA asking us where we do our work then that's that is a problem. Um we also discussed it in our our bi-weekly meetings it it wasn't as transparent as unfortunately you all may have felt it it to be. Um and yeah that's that is something that we definitely need to address and figure out and do better on and please pay attention to us. to answer that question. Steph's question. >> We We are actually We are hard stopped because we have a boat that we have to catch. So I >> No, sorry. I I'm We got a boat. There's a boat and it's going to leave if we're not on time. Matthew, I'm sorry. I want to thank We'll definitely have to make sure this is a full hour next time. Thank you all for