FIXED Healing Narcissism: Cold Therapy Seminar, Part 6, Vienna, May 2017

You recall that based on the previous stages of the therapy, the therapist came to be identified with the abuser. Came to be the abuser. Actually, transference is a little like flashback. It's real. So, the therapist is now the abuser. And he had he has never relinquished this role. hasn't changed throughout. Actually, for the narcissist to experience himself as a good object, the therapist had to take upon himself all the prim primal sins of the abuser. The therapist had to become an abuser so that the narcissist can feel as a good object by comparison. So here we are. therapist is still the abuser and now we enter a new phase and that is the phase of role play. During the role play the patient is asked by the therapist to play roles which is why it's called role play to play roles. And it starts with the therapist telling the patient, "Teach me how to be your abuser. Teach me how to abuse you." So the therapist asked the patient for a quick seminar on how to be that specific patient's abuser. He asked the patient, "What techniques should you use? overt techniques, covert techniques. He asked the patient what are the patients vulnerabilities, which buttons to push, how to obtain maximum impact. He asked the patient to do what the patient had been doing all his life very well, to be an observer, to be an observer of himself, to observe himself and inform the therapist as to how to abuse him. highly non-traditional method, shall we put it gently? But it forces the the narcissist, narcissistic patient or client. It forces the patient to think as the abuser might have thought. It forces the narcissistic patient to enter the mind of the abuser, to try to understand the abuser's motivation, to decipher the abuser's subtle and less subtle techniques, to realize the abuser's limitations, to manipulate the abuser as an internal object. Of course, since it is the patient who is guiding the therapist on how to be the abuser, the patient has the upper hand. He is in control. He has mastery of the situation. Again, for the first time in the patient's life, it is the patient who is the puppet master. He is puppeteering the abuser, not the other way around for a change. Once this phase is finished, the therapist has graduated as the abuser of that patient. Now it is the ro and certified of course received certificate. Now is the role of the now is the turn of the patient. So now we have classic role play adopted from other systems of therapy where the patient is asked to act as the therapist as a parent as a child as an adult and many and other roles which might be pertinent or relevant to the specific trauma. Gradually as the patient role plays, emulates these roles, acts, assumes both the cognitions and the emotions of these roles and so on so forth. Gradually there is a process of deeper understanding of what had happened, why it happened, where it led and also the rudiments rudiments of integration. You remember that um I told you that call therapy borrows techniques from the treatment of dissociative identity disorder, multiple personality disorder. Role play is one of the techniques borrowed from treatment of did and the thing is to demonstrate to the patient that acting solely as the patient he can imitate and emulate other people without becoming them. No need for him to become other people. It is enough to imagine. It is enough to master one's cognitions and emotions. No need to summatize them. No need to become them. And so uh slow process of integration takes place and to hasten it or to speed it up. The last part of the role play is to is the empty chair technique borrowed from Gisht. We put an empty chair. The narcissistic patient faces the empty chair. I don't know those of you who are acquainted with gestal, it's a gestal technique faces the empty chair and then uh the therapist suggests to the narcissist that the empty chair is occupied by the false self. And now the narcissist should talk to his false self. Talk to it about anything. The narcissist can ask the false self questions, challenge the false self, ridicule the false self, mock the false self, undermine the false self, support the false self, agree with the false self. Any and every interaction is peri permissible. And of course, all these interactions teach the therapist a lot about the interplay between the narcissist's true self and false self. You will recall you will recall that in uh previous stage we gained access to the true self finally. So when we put the false self on the chair we ask the narcissist to acknowledge that he is not the false self that the false self is a separate autonomous entity and that a dialogue between the narcissist who is now probably the true self because if the false self is gone, what is left? [clears throat] To acknowledge that a dialogue between the narcissist and the false self is possible. We force the narcissist into a state of interaction, the need for the false self. The patient may reach a conclusion that the false self is no longer needed or he may reach the exact opposite conclusion that the false self is crucial and vital and so on. Based on either of these two forks of the dilemma, horns of the dilemma, we proceed with the treatment. If the narcissist decides that the false self is no longer needed, we proceed with various techniques to encourage the narcissist to separate from the false self. If he decides that the false self is more needed than ever because of the secretary delusions, because of the environment is hostile, he may decide that the only defense he has left is the false self and get attached to the false self even more a process called cexis. He may cex the false self. So if we if we observe cexis of the false self, then we proceed with other techniques. I will during this seminar assume that the narcissist has reached the conclusion that the false self is his only hope and his only defense against the hostile non-holding unsafe environment and gendered by the therapist. That the therapist is the bed object, the source of persecution. And the only defense against the therapist is the false self. So there's greater cathexis, greater emotional investment, greater bonding and attachment between the narcissist and the false self. This is not a bad thing. This is not a bad thing because ultimately we are going to integrate the false self. The false self is not going to be discarded because it cannot be discarded. But we are going to integrate the false self together with the true self. That is a technique used in DID, dissociative identity disorder, the process of integration. But role play uh the roleplay um characteristics or attributes in cold therapy are borrowed entirely from another type of therapy and another type of school another school of psychology known as um everything okay sorry known as internal family systems. There is a school of psychology known as internal family systems IFS and it's a fascinating school of psychology because it is based almost entirely on work done in DID and yet it is a leading treatment in child psychology. um what IFS internal family systems what the treatment modality affiliated with or emanated emanating from IFS does is that it assumes that inside the child there are all kinds of competing entities. They are protectors and there are exiles and so on and so forth. And what they do in IFS is they seek to reach a consensus between these entities so that the protectors will allow the exiles back and agree to vanish. The aim of internal family systems therapy is to prove to the protectors that the child is safe and protection is no longer needed. at which moment at which split second the protectors vanish. Now as opposed to cold therapy IFS has a rich history with numerous case studies and it is all the rage in some circles. So similar to cold call therapy we see that when protection is no longer needed the entities that provided protection vanish literally immediately. Can you you said the first uh it's like the separation that you recommend to separate. Can you talk more about that? >> I'm sorry. >> Yeah. Yeah. You said like this is the second if I got it correctly. If the cexis if the the needs of feps are not there the force is no longer needed. So you recommend to separate the separation. I didn't get that. >> No, I said there are two possible outcomes. Either the narcissist decides that the self true false self is no longer needed >> in which case we proceed with certain techniques >> or he decides that the false self is actually more needed than ever because the therapist is a is a secretary object a bed object and so on hostile environment in which case we proceed with other techniques and this >> separation >> sorry >> no separation >> no in this therap in this seminar we are going to assume that the narcissist decided that the false self is very important more important than I advise all of you those who are interested at least to look up on the internet internal family systems therapy. It's a pretty amazing truly amazing um therapy and concept. The child is treated as all children are treated as though they have multiple personality in IFS. All of them are treated as though they have multiple personality and the aim is to let the protectors to allow the protectors to vanish because the child is safe and no longer needs them. Exactly the same idea underlies uh call therapy. Precisely the same idea to convince the false self. In other words, the narcissist because the narcissist is only the false self. Yes. To convince the false self that it is no longer needed. And the minute the narcissist develops this inner conviction, the false self literally vanishes. This I've seen with my own eyes. False self, grandiosity, everything vanishes overnight. Nothing is left. Like nothing is like there was no narcissist there. Now had I been the only one to make this claim, you could have had your doubts. But I'm referring you to IFS because in IFS there are hundreds of documented cases where similar structures like the false self known as protectors vanished overnight. These are traumatized children and so on. So these traumatized children developed protectors, imaginary entities that protected them. But when IFS was applied, the protectors themselves were convinced that they are no longer needed, admitted it and vanished overnight. They vanished on the spot. They were no more to be seen ever again. So we have a precedent precedent of a protective agency, a protective construct or structure which vanishes when it is no longer needed. And that's what call therapy does. Okay, after the role play where the narcissist finally confronts his false self and talks to it, let us assume because that's a majority of cases that the narcissist actually ends up being convinced that he needs the protection and love of the false self more than ever because now he has a mortal enemy and that is the therapist. We move on to the next stage and that is the stage of emotional re-regulation. [clears throat] >> Emotional reation >> reeregulation. Narcissists suffer from emotional dysregulation and we move on to obtain emotional reregulation. Why do we do that? The previous stages we introduced the narcissist to his true self. We made the narcissist realize that he's not guilty for the abuse. That is the good object. He's not the bad object. He didn't deserve the abuse. Yes. As a good object. He did not deserve to be abused. So we convince a narcissist that he's the good object that he didn't deserve to be abused. We put him in touch with his true self and then we put him in touch with his false self to have finally a dialogue. This is the this is the process after after having identified the initial or primary the originating or primary trauma. Why do we suddenly move from from tackling the protective structures because grandiosity is a defense, false self is a conglomerate of defenses. Why do we move from defenses to emotions? It's a curious move. Theoretically and ostensibly, we should have now moved on to tackle the false self head on. Uh why do we accept the narcissist's decision and verdict that he needs the false self? We say, "Okay, you know, you want to have the false self, have it, no problem. Now, we're going to deal with your emotions." Why this uh why this move? >> Because it's been so frozen for so long. I mean, doesn't hasn't had emotions up now and released them. You can regulate what may still be some false. [clears throat] >> Yes, not bad. False self is a defense against the narcissist emotions mostly. Of course, it has functions of regulating grandiosity. But why does the narcissist need grandiosity? Because he feels inferior, helpless, mocked, ridiculed, humiliated. False self is exclusively a defense against the narcissist's own emotions. The remember the function of the false self functions of the false self are decoy. It's a the aim is to remove the narcissist from the locus of his own being from the locus of his own existence. The narcissist existence narcissist inner world is a myasma of pain. It's a swamp of hurt. It's a horrible hellish environment. The child cannot survive this environment and many adults cannot survive this environment. The narcissist therefore is constantly diste depressed dysphoric sorry dysphoric diste. The narcissist if was left beereft of defenses might become suicidal. So the the aim the main uh task of the false self is to isolate the narcissist to protect him not from the outside as most people think but from the inside. The threat to the narcissist is never from the outside. It's from the inside. You remember yesterday I told you that narcissists have no distinction between inner and outer worlds. Their inner world is the outer world. The outer world is a part of their inner world. What they do is they digest and assimilate the outer world. They internalize it symbolically in the form of representations, imagos and so on. They have no boundary between in and out, there and here, inside and outside. They have no boundaries. These boundaries because the abuser made sure that they don't develop boundaries. They are boundaryless people. Because they are boundaryless people, they are the most vulnerable people imaginable. Most vulnerable imaginable thousands of times more than any victim of abuse. Because they are that vulnerable, they have developed these extremely rigid and powerful defenses. They cannot allow themselves to get in touch with what's happening inside them because if they do they're doomed and they cannot they don't want to die. No one wants to die not even narcissists. So they don't want to die and because they don't want to die they say okay I don't exist therefore there is no threat but I have to interact with the world somehow. So here is this agent, floating agent, fictional character, and let him let him interact with the world. Let him suffer the pain. Let him cope. He's invulnerable. He's godlike. You know, I'm not worried about him. Nothing will happen to him ever. Nothing will happen to him ever. He's immortal. He's perfect. He's brilliant. He's, you know, infallible. So, he will cope with the world. I I will cease to exist. The minute the false self is invented, the narcissist ceases ceases to exist. And the false self takes over as the only form of being in the narcissist life. But the main task of the false self psychonamically speaking is to isolate to firewall the narcissist to separate him from his emotions. If we want to undermine the false self ultimately to make it vanish and wither to render it utterly unnecessary obsolete and redundant we need to take care of the narcissist's emotions we need to reeregulate the narcissist's emotion emotions so that he can get in touch with them without succumbing without getting depressed or angry or we need to reintegrate the narcissist with his emotions. Once the narcissist has full unmititigated access to his emotions and nothing happens, he is safe, he survives, he does not feel threatened, then we can move on to the next stage which is convincing the false self that it is no longer needed because the child is protected. Everything is okay. The fire is out. The child is protected. You can go. Thank you for your services. you know right this is done in cold therapy at least um via emotional reeregulation >> just one little uh uh I had a case that there was like we were working on it and then not I'm not sure if it was really like with a pathology or not but the case was He we went through the emotions. Everything was fine. The the client was feeling really good. And then first thing after um he left he was driving the car and then there was some construction on the car on the on the on the on the road and then suddenly out of nowhere the the construction people started yelling it like like the the client is attracting it like even though he experienced the emotions he felt safe but he's still attracting it in the upcharge world kind of. So, uh, does cot therapy takes eventually everything like away so he can kind of not be the attraction point to those kind of magical people, you know, yelling at him constantly just out of nowhere. >> That's not a question I can relate to because it assumes magic and I I don't assume magic in the world. >> I don't believe he attracted anything. I believe that he probably did something wrong, trans transgressed on the on some line that he should not have or something and provoked the construction workers. >> The more relevant question, if I may, would be if he could if he can now following therapy would be able to cope with this negative input and um because he now doesn't have defenses. He doesn't have grandiosity. He doesn't have false self. As as you will see, we're taking away his fantasy. We're going to take away all the defenses. Ultimately, he will be left with no effective defenses against negative input. And the question is, can he cope with it? The answer is that narcissist cannot cope with negative input because they have to constantly defend an unrealistic fantastic construct. Uh the narcissist self-perception is fantastic. It's grandiose and obviously it is open to attack. So he's constantly on the defense trying to convince people of the improbable. Trying to convince people that he is what he claims to be. In other words, trying to extract narcissistic supply. When the grandio structure vi [cough] when the grandio structure vanishes there's no need to defend it anymore and the sensitivity or hypervigilance the sensitivity to insults uh criticism disagreement and so on also vanishes because he doesn't need to protect anything. In other words, if I think I'm a genius and I need to prove to all of you that I'm a genius every sing every single second and so on and one of you tell me, you know what, you're not an ages a genius. You're a fat idiot, >> which is a possibility. So, I will I will feel the need to defend myself >> because I'm a narcissist. I I have to invest resources in defending my grandiose self-image, my fantastic fantastically grandio self-image. Your attack telling me you are a fat idiot would be perceived as a challenge to this grandiosity. To restore the grandiosity, I would need to convince you that I'm not or devalue you. By devaluing you, I can restore my superiority, etc., etc., etc. Requires a lot of energy, a lot of work, but imagine that I don't have this self- image as a genius. And you say you're a fat idiot. Okay, so you say you're a fit idiot. [laughter] >> Yeah. So, yeah. Thank you. So, so the grandiosity is still there. It's your idea. It's uh it no longer requires defensive measures. Bulk of the narcissist existence and energy and mental resources are spent on defense trying to prove to the world something that the world can never ever accept. You know, I'm the best, I'm perfect, I'm this, I'm that, I'm a genius. And of course, this opens creates many challenges because people are envious or because it's not true and so on. The narcissist provokes the attacks on his grandiosity because he's grandiose. If he stops being grandios, if he does not bendy about some kind of fantastic um perception of himself, no one will attack him. I mean who would why would someone attack someone who is you know normal run-of-the-mill you know but uh narcissists walk into the room and their body language informs you that they are superior and godlike and you know and the body language is sufficient to provoke by itself constantly on the defense. So, emotional reeregulation in cold therapy deploys no less than 19 techniques from child psychology. I have the list here. I'm willing to read it to you. We have no time to go through all of them. You will need to look them up the internet if any of you is interested. Yes. And these are the techniques that call therapy deploys. emotional intensity control, behavioral control but only the termination phase of behavioral control. When you look up behavioral control, you will see that it has various phases and last one is called termination phase. So we are using call therapy only the termination phase >> that termination >> termination >> termination phase uh interpretation of emotional cues. These are techniques from child psychology and social cues, emotional and social cues, avoidance and aggression balancing. Focusing on the positive, attention and focus control, modeling desired behavior, self-regulatory freedom versus constraint. These all techniques, these are all names of techniques. Self-regulatory freedom versus constraint. Countering over stimulation, countering excessive frustration, identifying, encountering, discriminating thoughts and emotions. That's a long one. >> Can you repeat that? >> Identifying and countering discriminating thoughts and emotions. And finally internal construction, external representation. Now these are all techniques borrowed from child psychology. And if you read and because there in cold therapy uh these these techniques are used as they are they're not modified in any way, shape or form. Simply reading about these techniques will give you everything you need to know about about cold therapy. If you want I can repeat >> the last one. >> Would that be useful? >> Oh yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. So emotional intensity control termination phase of behavioral control interpretation of emotional and social cues. Avoidance aggression balancing. Focusing on positive attention focus control modeling desired behavior self-regulatory freedom versus constraint countering over stimulation. Countering excessive frustration. Identifying and countering discriminating thoughts and emotions. internal construction, external representation. So all these techniques are used simultaneously. They are not um very complicated techniques. They are oneliners >> representation. >> Yes, they are oneliners. They're the junk food of the fast fast techniques. So putting all of them together, the narcissist is managed clinically as a child. Simple. Exactly as we would treat a child, we treat the narcissist in order to obtain emotional reeregulation. What do we why do we do that? What do we hope to what's the emphasis? What do we hope to achieve or what do we achieve actually using these techniques? Sorry, >> it's a regression back to find that real self. >> Once once uh once we have put the narcissist in touch with himself, once we have put the narcissist in touch with his true self and we have removed the grandiosity defense, all that is left, all the narcissist has left is a fantastic false self. So now we circumvent the false self and we access the narcissist's emotions directly as a child because now the narcissist has has access to the true self. Before that he did not have access to the true self. Now we have he has access. We can tap it but we cannot expose the true self now. It's dangerous. We cannot remove the false self until the false self is no longer needed. So now we establish contact with the true self. We are re reregulating the emotions. The next stage would be to eliminate the false self. How long does it take this phase? Usually >> entire call therapy from A to Z in the most complicated case I ever had was seven months. >> It was on daily basis. >> Sorry. >> On daily basis. >> Uh beginning. Yes. After that once or twice a week. But the beginning is at beginning it's on a daily basis because of the suicide risk and so on. The retraumatization phase is absolutely on on a daily basis plus on call whenever the patient wants they can call. So they will call me, you can ask my long-suffering wife, they will call me at midnight and 10. And >> yes, reeregulation has four aims. All of them achievable with uh with these techniques and it it's important to understand that these techniques are unique to child psychology. So we are treating the narcissist as a child. Now he has access to the true self. We are now trying to reeregulate his emotions and then we will talk to the false self and tell it you know it's okay child is here his emotions are okay he's not at risk let's negotiate what will it take for you to disappear how much do you want right >> yes how much do you want if it's a Jewish false self or anything >> right [cough and clears throat] >> so would you please repeat the emphasis of the 19 techniques techn emphasis >> 19 techniques >> of the 19 techniques to begin like the emphasis of the 19 techniques is to >> achieve >> no no to achieve four goals I'm about to explain >> okay >> to achieve four goals first of all to convert narciss the narcissism of the narcissist from externalizing disorder to internalizing disorder. Now you remember that an externalizing disorder is a mental health disorder which is directed at the environment, directed at the world. Internalizing disorder is directed inwards. It's very similar to the very old distinction between neurosis and psychosis. If you remember, those of you who are old enough to remember uh neurosis and psychosis like uh inward and outward. So externalizing, internalizing what emotional reeregulation achieves is that the narcissism of the narcissist is now d gradually being directed inwards rather than outwards. Why? Can you guess why? Why the narcissism the narcissistic complex is now suddenly directed inwards not outwards. >> Find some responsibility. >> What is narcissism? What is narcissism? >> Supply certain >> supply is part of it. But what what does it aim to do? What's its function? To defend >> protection. So when we access emotions using these techniques, the narcissist feels threatened very. And the crisis is internal, not external. So the the threat is now internal, not external. Because narcissism is always about Narcissism is always about, you know, what other people think about me, what they're going to say about me, are they going to give me supply, how can I be more powerful, more rich, more famous, more it's always an externalizing disorder. But when we threaten the narcissist from the inside, his narcissism becomes from externalizing to internalizing. In other words, he rushes to the emergency inside. He redeploys all his resources to the emergency inside and he completely forgets about the world. Now that's very interesting because if he completely forgets about the world, he has no need for narcissistic supply. Nor he has he any need to victimize. He seizes interactions with the outside world that are narcissistic because all his narcissism now is deployed inside to cope with the threat of being exposed to his own emotions. So almost immediately at the in this stage the need for narcissistic supply declines precipitously and then gradually as the reeregulation continues the narcissist stops interacting with other people in socially unacceptable ways, abrasive ways, dysfunctional ways, etc., etc. Narcissistic ways. In other words, as far as other people are concerned, he stops being a narcissist. That is not true. Of course, he is a narcissist full-fledged. However, he is now inward directed, not outward directed. He his disorder became internalizing disorder. The second thing we achieve is a change in the victim stance. The narcissist narcissism is about grievances, about complaints, about being the victim, the eternal victim. the narcissist is misunderstood, discriminated against, mistreated, not uh justly or fairly tackled, etc., etc. It's constantly in a state of victimhood. Victimhood is a very powerful tool because it can be leveraged or used for emotional blackmail and to guilt trip other people, make them feel guilty and then of course to manipulate them. So victimhood is a powerful tool in the arsenal of the narcissist and during emotional reeregulation the narcissist reverts from grievance orientation or victim stance victimhood to task orientation. Again, why there is nothing more crucial to the narcissist, nothing, absolutely nothing more crucial to the narcissist than to not be in touch with his own emotions. Nothing. Not narcissistic supply, nothing comes close to the need [clears throat] to the existential need not to be in touch with his emotions. If he's in touch with his emotions, his very life is threatened. And this is not an exaggeration. Once we force the narcissist to get in touch with his emotions using this child psychology techniques, all the focus of his narcissism completely changes from outside to inside from victim stance to task. What is the task? To stop the access to the emotions. So now he's focused on how to stop these the crazy voices in his head. How to stop the the tumult? How to stop the chaos that erupts inside him? How to how to cope with his shifting moods, shifting depressions, insanity, inability to sleep. He forgets completely about being victim. It's completely forgotten. He is now focused on the task. How to stop this mess? How to somehow recover? How to So, he becomes task oriented rather than grievance oriented. We got rid of narcissistic supply and victimizing others. Narcissistic behaviors directed at others. And we got rid of the narcissist perpetual need to present himself as victim, victim stance, emotional blackmail and so on. The next thing emotional reeregulation achieves is a transition from counterdependence to codependence. Narcissists are counterdependent. Counterdependents are people who defy authority, defy rules, conventions, mores, edicts. They are their own. They are rule unto themselves. They are lone wolves. They they are in control. They are masters. They are It's very critical for narcissism because if the narcissist cannot control his environment, he can also cannot control the input from his environment. In order to secure a steady flow of positive or or negative whatever narcissistic supply, he needs to be sure that he's in control of the sources of supply. And in order to be in control of the sources of supply, he needs to control their environment, the environment of the sources so that he can punish the sources, deny them important things or motivate them and bribe them to continue to provide supply. Control and mastery of the narcissist environment. Narcissist environment is what I call pathological narcissistic space. Okay? Control of the pathological narcissistic space is crucial to this to securing a steady regular flow of narcissistic supply. So the narcissist is preoccupied with control. He's a control freak. Preoccupied with control in a variety of ways. He can control directly, indirectly, subtly and so on. We need to break this habit, this need to control, this control freakery. And we do it by converting the narcissist from counterdependent. Countdependent, as I said, is someone who makes his own rules. From counterdependent to codependent. Now, here's something that very few people are aware of. When the narcissist experiences loss, for example, when the narcissist experiences the loss of an intimate partner, actually source of secondary supply to be precisely because narcissists have no intimacy. Yeah. So when they experience loss of secondary source of supply, they actually become codependent. They become codependent for very short period of time, but they become codependent. Many women will tell you that when they left the narcissist, he began to cry, to beg, to cling, to court them, to, you know, he became codependent. clinging, hugging, not letting go, stalking became codependent. These are not narcissistic behaviors. Clinging and begging you to stay are not narcissistic behaviors. Believe me, they are codependent behaviors. >> So, isn't it more to do with loss of control? They can't hang on to you anymore. More than >> No, it's not loss of control. It's without narcissistic supply. >> What's going on here? Pens are exchanging hands and I don't know something >> something bizarre. >> I I feel completely out of control here. There's no control. >> Good for you. You're describing discovering your true sexuality. Very good. >> Poco, what do you mean? >> Multo, [clears throat] you will. Shall we? >> Wouldn't it be easier? >> No, there just let me answer the lady. Um, narcissistic supply, the narcissist uses narcissistic supply to regulate his internal environment. One of the main functions of narcissistic supply is to maintain a stable sense of selfworth. Another function is to allow the to feed the false self. Narcissic supply is like fuel and the false self is like a car. So it's fuel gasoline for the car. And so when the source of narcissistic supply vanishes, the secondary source of secondary supply vanishes, the narcissist cannot regulate his supply. The role of the secondary source is not to provide supply but to regulate supply. So he cannot regulate the supply and that terrifies him because that means there will be huge spikes and ups and downs in the supply and he can disintegrate. he can decompensate in cases of deficient supply narcissist falls apart. So it's an existential threat. It's not about and so but when this happens any woman who left the narcissist would tell you any woman who has ever left a narcissist will tell you when she leaves the narcissist there is a brief period a long period depending on the narcissist where he effectively becomes codependent. effectively. Now, here the narcissist experiences loss, a loss that is much more important than the loss of a secondary source of supply. Because what is this reservoir of emotions inside the narcissist? Do you remember what I told you yesterday and today? The narcissist is in constant mourning and grieving. He's mourning and grieving his own vanishing, his own disappearance when he was a child. He's mourning it. Whenever someone dies or something dies, we mourn it. I had a goldfish. It died. I cried for three days and I wrote a short story. It's true. I'm not kidding. It's available online. So, of course, it's available online. I'm a narcissist. [laughter] How come it will not be available online? The fish is lucky I didn't kill it in order to write the story. So, [laughter] so >> jumped off. >> But loss, you know, loss is loss. So, the narcissist reservoir of emotions is predominantly concerned with loss, the loss of innocence, the loss of life because the narcissist dies dies and a new entity is born. It's a constant state of mourning and grieving. When the narcissist touches upon this loss, he becomes codependent. So we convert the narcissist from counterdependent to codependent. That's not the best possible outcome, but it's far better than than counterdependent. Whatever you say about codependent, codependents, they are less malignant, less, you know, socially asocial, antisocial. And the last thing we achieve in this process of reeregulation. Last thing we achieve is converting the narcissist from a social from social withdrawal to social functioning and integration. Now that sounds completely wrong. Narcissists are very social animals. They are gregarious. They seek company. They seek people because they need narcissistic supply. So what on earth am I talking about? What is this social withdrawal that we are winning the narcissist off? Why do we need to convert the narcissist to be socially functional and integrated? If you know narcissists are social animals, why do we need this? Well, of course, narcissists are not social animals. Narcissists do not interact with people at all. They interact with sources of supply. They do not perceive other people as separate autonomous entities with their own wishes, priorities, uh, moods, minds, etc., etc. They interact with representations of these people introjected into their own mind, inside their mind. It cohort called it immagos. So, uh, narcissists are actually completely asocial. Never mind. You can see a narcissist sitting in a group of 100 people. Everyone is laughing at his jokes. He is the center of attention, the life of the party. He's drinking. He's kissing. He's He is alone. Completely alone. Everyone around him are shadows and echoes in the chamber of his mind. Think how terrifying this is. Can you conceive how terrifying this is? Yeah, it's absolutely terrifying. It's like living in a world populated by ghosts. Only by ghosts. >> I am strong. I mean, try me later. >> Try me later. >> Yeah. So, it's pretty terrifying. The narcissist interacts with these apparitions, with these two-dimensional representations, manipulating symbols in the endless computer of his mind, living inside a matrix like matrix-like simulation. That's a narcissist's life. by tapping into the narcissist's emotions using these techniques. And the only reason I'm not explaining these techniques is because they are fully explained online and there is not not a single change done made to these techniques in call therapy. So no need to waste your time. Using these techniques we tap into his emotions definitely and when we do the narcissist loses his social withdrawal and becomes socially functional and even at a much later stage socially integrated. Can you guess why? Why would tapping into the nasi emotions force him to spring out of his isolation and begin to recognize other people as as full scale entities? >> Can you guess why? >> Compassion. >> Sorry. >> Compassion. >> Yeah, actually not compassion but the rudiments of empathy. >> Rudiments of empathy. Rudiments. >> Very rudimentary. >> I'm a dreamer, right? >> Yeah. Not compassion. Don't exaggerate please Claudia [laughter] but rudiments of empathy narcissist begins to because he now experiences emotions or taps into his own emotions. He's beginning to access parts of himself that he was not aware of before. And emotions of course are the foundation of empathy because empathy is mediated via emotions. A non-emotional entity can never have empathy. It can have cold empathy, which is the cognitive aspect, but it can never have full-fledged empathy. Full-fledged empathy requires emotions. Once the narcissist has access to emotions, he begins to develop the rudiments of empathy. I'm saying rudiments. Don't get carried away. He's not becoming a nice person, you know, but the rudiments, >> right? Absolutely. >> So he's beginning to develop the rudiments of empathy. Okay, great. But why does it render him social? Why does it make him a social animal? Many people have empathy and they are loners. They're not like other people. They have empathy and they're not evil. They're not, you know, they empathize. >> Is it because it's missed for a long long time catch up? >> No. >> Learn. >> That is that is sex. That is six >> to learn because he never interacted with real people. He interacted with entities. >> Mhm. >> To learn to interact. >> Yes. It's getting close getting warm. Let's put >> he wants to be perfect in this area too. So >> no >> no it's not a grandio actually and the contrary is in total panic during emotional reeregulation. The narcissist is absolute panic. It is during this phase that narcissist called me numerous times a day and at night. And you remember the guy from Canada? I mean, it's a completely insane phase. It's the worst possible phase during the whole this. They're in utter panic. Utter utter hysterical panic. >> Wouldn't it be easier and safer to create some something like um um no not am not on a hospitalized basis. >> Ah to to be committed >> in China. No, no, there's no it's >> so vulnerable that they are vulnerable. >> They are very vulnerable, but it's not more excessive than other types of outpatient treatment. I mean there are other other mental health disorders that are go through the same phase. For example, in dialectical behavioral therapy when we treat border lines, they go through the compensation phase and narcissists don't decompensate in cold therapy, but border lines decompensate in DBT. It's extremely dangerous but uh it's manageable techniques to manage suicide risk and so on. But u I'm asking a different question. Why if the narcissist taps into his emotions he suddenly feels the urgent need to be in touch with other people and he need >> he feels the need of course and he and he begins to function with them >> more or less function and ultimately over I mean over a few months he begins to integrate. He begins to be socially normal more or less. Why? Why does he feel this uh sudden urge? >> He doesn't he doesn't use his emotions, >> right? He doesn't see them as objects now. >> Okay. He's beginning to see them as real people to interact. >> He wants appreciation for his change. >> That would be that would be narcissistic. That's just >> correct. >> Actually, it's a combination of these two answers. >> Uh when the when the thing you the thing the others, those of you who didn't get it right, forgot is that the narcissist is in this fa this phase is a child >> because we're thinking about adults. what adults will do >> but he's a child. So we know from children in child psychology >> we know that yeah exactly we know that there is a process of socialization that is mediated by peers and uh uh part of the process of socialization is identifying other people's emotions so that you can identify yours. So identification of one's own emotions is crucially dependent on observing the same emotions in other people. This of course fosters empathy but it's also part of this socialization and later acculturation but socialization process. Narcissists simply go through belated socialization process. The urge to be with others is innate. It's not something imported from the therapist or from the parent. Children want to play with each other not because the mother tells them you must play with each other. Actually mother often tells them don't play with each other. Don't play with others. Frequently the the parents forbid them from playing because they have to do their homework. I don't know what. But but children have this huge uncontrollable urge to be with others. It's probably biological biologically determined. It's in all societies, all cultures, all periods. And it is in defiance very frequently of uh strictures and commands by adults. Very frequently adults will try to prevent the child from going out because he has to do this or he has chores or whatever and the child will sneak out, climb out the window or something. It is that that strong. So narcissist simply goes exactly through the same phase. He wants to play. We have this in dogs by the way. Dogs are the same. dogs when they go when they reach a few months I mean they want to play you can't stop them they seek other dogs and they begin to play play is the main instrument of learning play because in play you simulate other situations play simulation any type of play is simulation so children learn via simula simulation or simulated play and and so do dogs in their environment enironment and so do you know other animals. It's an animalistic biological thing. Narcissists go through this socialization process and as Claudia said, it is in order to learn about their own emotions and they learn about their own emotions by comparing their emotions what they are experiencing with others. And this is the normal way to do it. That's how children do it. They learn about their own emotions contextually by observing other children. Constantly there are feedback loops in groups of children between children. Uh they constantly compare emotions, cognitions, behavior patterns and they constantly modify each other's behavior. Each child modifies other children's behavior and the group as a group has its own existence and modifies the member's behavior. So narcissist not only will become functional become functional at this stage but they actually become gregarious they seek groups not only people individuals and this time it's not as sources of supply actually at this stage at this late stage in cold therapy narcissists are utterly uninterested in supply I will tell you something about myself of course how can you without normally I will tell you something about myself. I gave a series of lectures about cold therapy in uh Russia. When you give a lecture about cold therapy, inevitably you go through some of the techniques and so even reading about cold therapy, even preparing this seminar and lecture had effects. My wife can confirm that for a period of three months when I was giving these lectures in Russia and other places I was utterly uninterested in narcistic supply completely. I re turned down requests for interviews in the media. I turned down requests put me in a straight jacket. Lead me away. uh and my wife can confirm that I lost interest in in uh narcissistics apply completely. So but I mean completely like journalists would call me come television come to television give an interview because I'm a political analyst and not connected to this. So come give an interview about this situation that situation Trump Russia this nothing I'm not interested off it and it's pretty pretty shocking for me. It's absolute shock. I'm a media addict. I'm completely I would do anything well almost anything for media. [laughter] It just something something occurred to me. You know that that I will not do. >> Sam >> Claudia that I will not do. Stop it. I will not do. >> So Sam, did you go on play dates instead? >> Sorry. >> Did you go on play dates instead? >> No, but >> No, I mean >> but actually he did it. >> He actually did it. >> From 9 years old for 6 months. He grew up to 17. >> You could probably witness and see that honestly. >> Oh yeah. Then I have closer. on that. I spent I spent I spent six months doing nothing but contemplating call therapy, writing, preparing seminars, reading and so so all my world was occupied my with call therapy just by proxy vicariously not not being treated just reading about it made me lose completely my need for narcissistic supply which is for me I can't imagine how shocking it is for me. So I all my life I'm 56 years old since age nine I have been compulsively seeking attention especially in the media since age nine and for three months I was utterly uninterested and by the way I'm still uninterested completely in narcissistic supply utterly for me is utterly no [applause] >> and then we give you supply [laughter] >> now you broke it now you're now you broke it bloody hell >> it's like you gave me a drink Like you gave me a drink. Yeah. [laughter] >> Ah, four months you didn't drink alcohol. Great. You deserve a drink. Yeah. >> But that mean by explaining perhaps extensively to a narcissist or psychopath uh [laughter] cold therapy theories. Could that work a bit as well? >> I don't ever tried but I don't think so. But I don't think so. >> Investment in that sense. It's just an outside coming. >> But yes, I would say that I became a lot more social. When I went to Russia, for example, my behavior was a lot more sociable, wasn't it? >> You you belonged you like you were transferred to another world. >> Mhm. >> And uh because I what I said before there was like uh I I played the role of mother. But it's not only with him. I didn't have mother. So I had to imagine a mother. I took the role upon me when I was a child. So that's my my construct my inner construct it was not intentional nothing to choose and uh uh actually he individuated and separated because I was also his secondary source of narcissistic supply and uh before that I had my trauma it was uh like I didn't want refused actually I grew up in for myself after the trauma my I had some changes. He couldn't accept these changes so much because I stopped supplying him. >> So he lost the second the secondary source of narcissistic supply and he was actually like uh like uh he had abandonment anxiety. Uh but it was very good timing for him to individualize because the loss was big. the loss uh his loss was enormous and it was traumatic. So he had to do something about it. He had he was pushed forced by himself actually to individuate and separate. >> Can I stop you here for a second? Do you realize what happened? You created a hostile unsafe environment. >> I know. >> No, no, no. I'm not I'm not accusing you of anything. >> It's exactly exactly like call therapy. >> Exactly like therapy. There was a period where I was very aggressive. I was uh refusing to participate in his psychosis, his shared uh psychosis. I refused even to travel with him and so on. What before it was uh no way that it would have been uh done. So when I told you Claudia the last few months so this is uh what has happened but he is intelligent you know I'm not that stupid. So it was very fast what you will achieve with a uh let's say normal uh classic narcissist I mean pretty average uh intelligence what will take for one year and more it took him 3 months and I think he closed the cycle >> no I'm not I didn't lose my narcissism but I I definitely lost a lot of my grandiosity a lot of my and just by reading about cold call therapy was pretty for me pretty shocking It was very important uh for him because uh he had still the narcissistic self-destructive behaviors pun punishing himself. I'm not good enough that he wanted to cancel this seminar and that was you know like don't do it you must I mean like don't cancel do it >> and it was very important because uh >> but it also proves lack of interest in narcissistic supply >> exactly >> so I would never cancel a seminar it's a great source of supply >> but he is here and this is good enough achievement proving >> the whole therapy is working on Somehow it's working. I I I'm utterly I'll give you I I'll tell you another small story. Yesterday I got a phone call from u the standard. There's a newspaper here something and they call me and said we want to come and uh and cover the second day of the call therapy seminar. Can we come? I said yes but don't shoot the people. I will shoot them myself. and [laughter] and so on and um and this morning I received a a message from the standard we canceled it we are not interested now normally I would be utterly devastated I mean it I'll be ruined I swear to you I'll be crying here and you'll be handing me ank and don't ask but nothing happened nothing I have zero reaction to this like okay yeah came didn't come You can't imagine what a break it is from previous uh my previous version. You can't cannot begin to imagine. I mean I I it's it's pretty amazing. >> I have the the the will to give you a hug. >> You do? >> I do for this now. >> My wife is there. Can we do it later? >> Do it later. >> Can we do it later? >> To your true self. It really >> she mentioned the self punishment. Are you getting to it or can you share with us how you feel about it now? >> No, I'm still I'm still very self-destruct. I didn't My narcissism is not gone by far, >> but already >> but it's like I went through like I went through the first three techniques. >> I'm like I graduated the first three techniques more or less. Um but the rest is there of course we tomorrow we'll deal with the issue of self-destructiveness and self-punishment and inner critic and and so on. So this is still there big time. Today we Today I think we we are done. If you want to set fire to the hotel, you [laughter] have to call me with with the management.