Fireside Chat with Mike Hernandez

three. Well, hi Mike. It's uh for about 20 years you worked we worked rather parallel at IML to one another. And you know what? We never really met until more recently which is interesting. And so I'm sending a special thanks to Peter Fisk who introduced us here in Palm Springs and is asking that you be included in the fireside chat. So welcome. >> Thank you and thank you Peter. >> But now I can start with my usual spiel and say you know everyone welcome to Inside Leather History of Fireside Chat. We're a program of the leather archives and museum. I'm Doug O'Keefe and I am the host and producer of the chats. And today I'm in uh my home in Palm Springs, California with Mike Hernandez. Like I said just a moment ago, we worked parallel at IML for a long time but never really knew one another. So it's interesting now that finally we're really getting to know each other after we've both retired from IML. >> Well, semi semi-retired. >> Semi. Okay. How how are you still there semi time? >> I am uh I still work for the organization just in a different capacity. >> Okay. And how often what are your thoughts about being interviewed for your work within the leather kink fetish community? >> Um I mean it's a little odd because I just see myself as just another person in the community. Um, I've been around for a long time, but other than that, I don't think anything ma major stands out. >> Does that make sense? >> Yes. But in >> feel more like a community member than anything else. >> That's interesting. >> Yeah. >> So, why do you think that as opposed to something more notable? >> Well, um, just that's how I tend to operate. Um, I like being in the background more than being in the foreground, although I don't shy away from being in the foreground. Um, and so I think that just has a different tone >> than someone who runs for a title and uses that title to elevate a platform or get something accomplished. I do better volunteer work behind the scenes one- on- one tends to make more of an impact. >> Okay. What would you say has been a big impact for you in doing that? Uh >> oh. >> Uh wow, that's a big question. I think that's just how I'm wired. >> Okay. Um I you know there are people in the community who uh do better in the limelight or seek the limelight and I'm more about the work than the attention >> which is fine too because what if we didn't have that you know >> right >> and you know the fact of the matter is uh large organizations like IML function based on the volunteers who >> show up to do the dayto-day at the contest. >> And then you've got a bunch of folks behind the scenes planning and uh making those events successful. >> Yeah, that's true. Very true. But you just attended Smokeout last weekend, was it? Is that right? >> A couple of weeks ago. Yeah. >> Okay. Now, uh was that your first time there? No, it was my third Smokeout. >> Okay, tell me your thoughts. What's it like attending? I've never been. >> Uh, Smokeout is an interesting crosssection of cigar and pipe smokers, >> uh, bears, uh, fisters and kink. And so all of those things intersect. Um, all of those things are things that I enjoy greatly. And so it winds up being the perfect event. There's no um structure in in the sense that there are things that are happening during the day. Everything's optional. Mhm. >> So, it runs a lot like a bear event in the sense that there's the pool parties and there are gatherings that go out for meals. Um, it runs very much like a letter event in the sense of um negotiating play, having play spaces and likeminded men. >> Now, it's not a contest weekend, is it? It's there's no contest associated with the event. >> Now, what do you see it? How do you see that as a benefit to the overall community? >> I mean, I think those types of events are beneficial in the sense that you're not running from place to place. Um, so it's easier to make connections. M >> um smoking is a social experience. Um >> how so? >> People talk to each other. >> Okay. >> So you go to a leather event, you get a certain percentage of standard model. >> Sure. >> Or folks who appear unapproachable. Um when you're in a group of smokers, everybody's sitting around smoking cigars, chatting. >> Wow. Um, so there's a lot more. It's easier to make connection when folks are welcoming and inviting and social to begin with. Um, and I've noticed an increase in attendance in that event over the years. >> Wow. >> Um, and folks who come once tend to come back. >> Wow. >> So from the pers from that perspective, it's great. Um, it's also held in Las Vegas, so it's um more convenient to get to. >> Uh, and it's off the strip in a hotel that has suites. So, the hotel rooms are big enough to hang a sling in and play in addition to having a smoking playroom, which is >> unheard of these days. um >> go to a dungeon where you're going to be able to smoke is just not uh not prevalent. >> So, what attracted you to that in the first place? I've been smoking cigars for about 40 years and uh >> and uh ke kept hearing good things about that event, but my partner and I were raising our grandkid >> and we needed to wait for him to reach age majority before >> we could go out of town without running any risks. >> Okay, there you go. So, what would you say would be advice to someone going to smoke out for the first time? >> Leave your room. >> Really truly leave the room. Um, just hang out, talk to people. People have been very approachable. Um, never met anybody who was standoffish or difficult to talk to. Um, even if you're introverted, you can find um small pockets of people to spend time with and be able to recharge. It's really um I typically first time at an event tend to stand in the corners and watch a little bit till I get comfortable. This was immediately comfortable. So, I think it's an approachable event. Um, they've got a lot of volunteers. Um, the guys who organize it have been doing it for a number of years. So, it's it from an attendees perspective, it's fairly seamless. Um, so best advice, register. It's probably one of the least expensive events. I think this year was 85 bucks for five days. >> Wow. >> Um and that gets you, you know, hospitality sweets, um coffee and uh cookies and croissant and Cheetos. So, it was uh kindly referred to by a friend as the Cheeto dispensary. We would we would go by the um hospitality for coffee in the morning and there's water available all day. It's well worth the 85 bucks. Your >> sounds like it. >> So you you were at uh Smokeout and now please tell us where you're from. Your early years. >> I grew up in LA. I was born in Cuba. came over to the United States when I was >> I think three, >> close to four. >> Um, I did not speak English. I got in a fight my first day here because the kids were barking at me. >> I later learned that barking was called English and I learned a bark, too. Um but you know pretty uneventful growing up. Um got into leather in my late 20s around 88 89. Um came in through the women's community cuz I'm trans. uh and then transitioned in 90 started transitioning in 91 um and began to spend more time with men in the men's community. >> Let's build on that a little bit because that was going to be my next question. And uh take us back to those early years in the community. What was it like? What were you doing? >> Same thing anybody in their 20s was doing. planet. [ __ ] it. >> Alrighty then. I mean, was it uh did you learn things that were shocking, different? >> I mean, and look, anytime you come into a new community, there's going to be something that's new and shocking, and you're probably going to do more in your first year. >> Yeah. >> Um than you are at any other point in time. So, yeah. I mean, there was a lot there was a lot to learn. There was a lot to see. There was a lot that's exciting. Um, for example, you know, just even a general fogging >> um was exciting. I remember going to a um a class or a meeting and I saw race Bannon vlogging um Guy Baldwin. Uh, and that was exciting for a variety of things. The little guy was beating up on the big guy. >> Um, and so what I would have thought, who I would have thought was the top and who I would have thought was the bottom based on stature had nothing to do with reality. >> Wow. >> Um, so you start learning. I mean, for me it was one of those like, oh, interesting. I've got biases that are clearly wrong and I can't let those inform what I'm going to do. Now, you know, 35 years later, 36 years later, um you need more than a flogging for it to be interesting. Back then it was new and exciting. >> Yeah. And I think that's just the nature of aging >> is that which is new and exciting stops being new exciting and you've got the opportunity to explore more and new and exciting things. >> What excited you the most? >> Uh just the the the dynamic the the power dynamic was very um intriguing and odd. um the connection between the the players. It it started being more about less about the activity and more about the chemistry between the two individuals. Okay. >> And it's pretty much remained that way for me till today. It's about connection. >> What would be a successful connection for you in that situation? >> Laughter. uh certain sense of entertainment, certain sense of laughter, everybody walking away, having had a good time. I'm not very I look serious, but I'm not very serious when it comes to play. Um I tend to be a little bit more um impish. >> Uh I like uh creativity. Um, I like uh formulating predicaments and seeing how the bottom solves those issues or problems. I think you get a lot more um out of that than negotiation. >> Give me an example. >> I have uh someone who's been in service to me for 18 years. Um last year at an event um they were tasked there were different tasks for different days. >> So they'd get a scenario and they'd have to play out that scenario and then create a story and tell that story in the scarp go >> at the end of the evening. And so you I sort of gave a general theme. You're going to play with somebody in, you know, fisting, water sports, quiet, or those three cabins, >> okay? >> Do whatever you're going to do. Generate a story. Come tell the story. So nights one and two were specific tasks. uh night three and this task was given on night one was a scavenger hunt. >> So you had to find a they had to find a pistain jock >> uh an animal in the wild. Uh and this was um curious George goes to camp. And so a buddy of mine and I were dressed on night one as the men with the yellow hats. >> So had there you're familiar with Curious George? Yes. >> The name. But >> it's a series of children's books about a monkey. >> Oh, okay. >> Who gets rescued rescued from Africa and comes and has >> adventures in the United States. So, I'd already done a gnome scene with them, and so they needed to find a gnome that was not one of the men with yellow eyes. >> Got it. >> Um, had to find a binky. Um, had to find a partridge. Had to find a pear tree. Um, so there were all of these series of things. Had to find a puppy. And so as they found these objects, they needed to come to me or my buddy Billy and turn in the assignment. >> And then there was a story that was told at the last night and I thought there's no way in hell. First of all, there are no partridges where we were and there were no pear trees. >> I was gonna ask about that. Did you have >> How are you going to work this out? And this particular sub is an artist, so I figured there'd be a drawing. No, no, the partridge was um uh YouTube or Spotify. The Partridge family singing I Think I Love You. >> Oh, wow. I love >> So that was the Partridge cuz we were in Bear country. We weren't in partridge country. Um, the other the pear tree is there was a they needed to find a pink rope. They found a a piece of pink shoelace or something and they tied their balls to a tree and that wound up being the pear tree. >> Ah, got it. And so it's one of those it's like for me that was not only entertaining to see but it also gave me information for future scenes. So are you going to use your skills to kind of sort of shortcut or are you going to be more creative and in this situation um the sub far exceeded my expectations. >> Wow. So those scenes are pleasurable to me >> because I do all the work in the front end and then >> set them in motion and um they're community-based so other people get to enjoy the story. And we've got a large segment of our community which does ABDL um or Little's play which I'm not into but this particular scene was attractive to that community and so we invited folks who were into that who might not be out about it to come and enjoy and if they wanted to dress up to dress up. Wow. >> So, it wound up being this really fun scene for me that wound up being more um community inclusive or collaborative than originally intended. >> Wow. >> And that's how I like to play, which um not very good in a finite play space when you've only got three hours cuz there's um other scenes and other people you need to be aware of. >> Yeah. and limited uh toys, limited places to play on. >> Wild. Absolutely wild. >> It took me a long time to realize that that's the type of play that I enjoy. >> Wow. >> I wound up with somebody who's uh incredibly into it and has farly exceeded. Every time I've set a task has exceeded my expectations. What's been your most rewarding um situation that you've given them? >> Uh usually anything that involves me um laughing so hard I can't breathe. >> So winds up being a little bit of a breath play scene for me. But there have been a number of of entertaining scenes like that over the years. And >> in fact, they tend to be planned out in the front lobby at IML while smoking cigars. >> Oh, okay. >> And you start talking to people and get an idea and then next thing you know, I've got uh three months to plan how it's going to play out. >> It's a bit collaborative. >> It is very collaborative. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> it is very collaborative. And if the, you know, if the inspiration strikes, it works. And if the inspiration doesn't strike, it's just another year. >> Yeah. Wild. Wild. Now, another influential person in your history was the late Tony Delas. Now, I'm thinking the audience may want to know who he was because I don't know that everyone does know that. >> Tony Delo was very uh active in the leather community. He he was visible and active before I came in in the 80s. Um at that time I think late 80s early 90s he was the editor of drummer or did something was high up in the mast head of drummer magazine. Yes, vaguely. I remember >> he definitely wrote porn under fleeter mouse. Um he was in porn. They were typically um interrogation scenes involving electrical devices. >> Um he was prominent in the community. I think he designed the leather pride flag. >> Yes. Um, and unfortunately he passed away in the early 90s or late 90s. Um, and he was instrumental in affectuating the change at Chicago Hellfire >> going from non-trans to transincclusive. >> Okay. >> So, he started that with a small group of us in the late 90s. I still have the emails >> where he introduced us to club members at IML hoping to get us a uh an invite >> and then it took uh Peter Fisk and Billy Lane many years um to have that come into fruition. >> And there's the aircon again. So >> perfect timing now. End of a sentence. >> There we go. It'll be easier for the editing. Donut's really good about that. He He can do You should see his videos. They're incredible. I I Wow. That's all I can say. >> Some people have skills. >> Yeah, they do. Yeah, I do. I don't know where I fit in a lot of that, but I know uh I'm not able to do what he does. So, >> yeah, way beyond my skill set. >> Yeah. So, um, you were speaking of Tony Delas and things he did and you finished with that, but interestingly, you were not born male and you transitioned to being a man. Now, gender transition is it's a multi-layered process and many viewers probably don't realize the emotional and logistical investments required for transition. And somewhere out here in video land is someone who is thinking about that and who will see this interview. What would you like to share with them for their benefit? >> I mean, look, the situation is substantially different now than it was in the early 90s. Um and right and while safety is always a factor um I think safety is a much larger factor now just >> how so >> well the federal government's gunning for us. >> Yes. >> Um there are u states that have passed legislation about who can use what restroom and whe [ __ ] that was happening behind the scenes. But now with social media, um, there's the ability to scare a larger portion of the population quicker. So people who are contemplating transitioning today or identifying legally as non-binary um have a target on their backs which was there before but not as prevalent. >> Yeah. >> So there's nobody can make that decision but for that individual. Mhm. >> Um the problem with labels is they're general. You know, a gay leather man tells you nothing other than there's a man who's wearing or into leather. You don't know whe they're a top or a bottom. Um you don't know how they identify or what they're into, what their kinks are. Yeah. >> Same thing with trans. You talk trans community globally. There are trans men who are um gay or by who spend most of their time in the men's community um and are more comfortable in that community. And those individuals are going to have different needs and different desires than the transmen or transmas individuals who are still spending time in the women's community. Um I spend very little time in the women's community. I spend um 99% time in the men's community. So how I if you look at us globally, you're going to interact with those two groups of trans folk differently. >> They're rules of engagement are different. Uh how you spend time in space or how you approach perspective partners is going to be different. So I mean I think the the the biggest takeaway is it's a huge spectrum. You and you need lots of different data points to interact. So the easiest way to do that is to come in with no expectations >> and just >> talk about what you're interested in doing. Um, you know, I would encourage uh non-trans folks to approach trans folks and say, "I think you're hot and I'd like to have a I'd like to play or I'd like to have sex. Would you be open to that conversation?" And then just run with it. Um, and let that person define what they like or their parts or whatever and whatever way they do. Um, so I think the biggest danger is lumping everybody into one carrot category or assuming that certain groups of people spend time with other groups of people. >> Um, in terms of transition itself in the '9s, it was all out of pocket. >> So if you couldn't afford to pay the doctor, you weren't getting care. Um, >> okay. >> Things changed and now insurance companies are covering things, but for how long? >> Yeah. >> So, there's a lot more. There's more access and yet there's less access. Does that make sense? >> I think. Um, explain a little more though. I want to make sure anybody that sees this can fully follow you. I mean by more access there's more doctors there are more u um surgeons there's more information available online um you can get peer support online you know in the '9s if you didn't live in a big town that had a trans group that you could find um because there no internet >> Yeah >> or very little internet um So, you found things by word of mouth or in uh magazine articles or, you know, however you >> found >> found things out back then. >> Um, so there's more access to information. There's less access to reliable information. >> How do you mean that? >> Anybody can say anything and it's taken as true. Ah, okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Um, and so, um, you can't just >> go to a website and take everything at face value. You still have to do work. You still, you know, if you're going to have surgery, it makes sense to talk to other folks who've had surgery with that surgeon. >> Sure. >> So, some of it is, you know, what is your view of transition? How quickly do you want to um effectuate that and what is your ability to pay the co-pay or whatever the insurance will guarantee. >> Yeah. >> Um I think the the the biggest difference is we've come through a time that was appeared to be welcoming and that has changed overnight. So, if you came up in the times that weren't as welcoming, you've got skill sets, you've got uh peers, you've got friends, you're communicating >> Yeah. >> in person or over the phone instead of via social media. >> Yeah. >> So, just different, you know, different layers of safety, different layers of things to think about. And at the end of the day, it's a personal decision that has a lot of ramifications. >> Yeah. But you've hit on a few big points here, and I'd love to explore those a little bit. Uh differences between the women's and the men's communities. You really experienced some issues there. Tell me about it. Tell them about >> I mean I mean, well, and things have also changed over time because we've moved to a new model of consent. So, back in the '9s, you went to a gay bar, you were interested in somebody, you made eye contact, you got a smile, or sometimes all it took was that two seconds of eye contact. And there'd be touch. You'd approach people you were interested in >> with touch in the men's community. Okay. >> Women do not touch each other without >> consent. So the approach >> was not you thought somebody was hot and you touch them. That would get you into trouble. >> Got it. Wow. So, learning to be touched took a while cuz I went from a don't touch me to I want to be touched, but you know what's the reaction going to be when you learn that I wasn't born? And a lot of times that initial response was the guy would freak out and think he was straight. >> And it's like, I'm not a woman. >> Your dick got hard. >> I can't help you. >> Yeah. >> I can't help you figure this out. So there's a lot of the ability to find sex now and the fantasy of anonymous sex was off the table. >> Oh. >> Just based on my body at that time and I learned that uh that was a nice fantasy but not a good reality for me. >> I do better with friends with benefits. Wow. Now, again, coming back to some of the earlier points, the laws that are I think I found out it was 19 states have laws banning transgender people from using public restrooms uh matching their general their gender identity, thus requiring them to use the restroom affiliated with their birth birth gender. Idaho, for example, has been a terrible one on this. I'm sure there are more. What are your thoughts? >> What are my thoughts? It's reprehensible. Um and and these laws are in essence designed to disproportionately impact trans women. >> Yes. >> Okay. Uh tall women stand out, short men do not. Um, I could go to Idaho and walk into the men's room with no issue whatsoever. >> Yeah. >> I walk into the women's room, there's going to be a huge problem. >> Yeah. >> So, I I mean, to some degree, those laws affect folks who are early on in transition >> or who present gender ambiguous, or nonconforming. >> Yeah. Yeah. um or the more nervous you are, the more attention you call to yourself. Fact of the matter, straight men are not checking each other out in the bathroom. >> I hope not. >> And so, for the most part, you I mean, the big difference was women talk to each other. If you start a conversation outside the bathroom, conversation continues in the bathroom. Men do not speak to each other in the bathroom. >> True. Now that I think about it, >> so there were some not cultural differences, but I call them rules of engagement. How do you behave in a certain situation? Does that make sense? >> It it does. So, I think that uh what what's going on in politics these days is >> um they've picked a generally vulnerable community >> uh and have attacked it full force with the >> premise being we're going to scare the living crap out of you. >> Yeah. >> And so for me it's what do you do to take care of yourself? What do you do to take care of your community? >> Yeah. >> You know, how can you help reduce the level of fear >> so that act of living becomes an act of resistance and that's a fine balancing act at the moment. >> So, we were just speaking about uh restrooms and and discrimination situations that are happening in various states. The last when I looked at my computer, the last things I saw were that uh Kansas has revoked some 1700 driver's licenses from transgender people demanding that the licenses be surrendered basically right away. Thoughts? >> ACLU jumped in and got an immediate injunction and that's working its way through the court system. >> We love it. So >> yeah, >> thoughts. It's wrong and we've got to wait and see what happens. Unfortunately, the legal system slow. >> Yeah. >> Wrong happens fast, legal system slow. >> Do you think in your gut though that they'll succeed or hope? I think that yes, I they will succeed, meaning banning trans people from driving. No, >> I don't see that being successful. >> Yeah. >> Um, now whether it holds in Kansas, it's state specific. >> Yeah. You know, if you've got enough votes to pass, you've got the votes to pass and then it it's going to become on it's going to become a matter of what is that state supreme court set up to be like? >> Well, then I mean, >> how far up the chain does the appeal go? >> Well, in Montana just recently sort of at least startled me. I didn't expect a very liberal point of view from their Supreme Court. There have been a couple of states that I've seen lately, I think one of them's want to say Wisconsin that have come out and struck down anti-trans laws. >> Yes. So, you know, you take the good news where you can get it and rejoice in that. And then the bad news, you either volunteer time, donate money, figure out how to what what can you do to help somebody else out today? Doesn't have to be a transfers. >> Yeah. It's just how do you get beyond the cycle of negativity >> towards positivity? >> Yeah. >> And you know, >> it's always a challenge. >> Take the win where you find it. >> Yeah. >> And do your best to survive another day. >> And what we're bringing up even today are only a couple of examples of things that have been going on in this country. you know, in your opinion, why do you feel this has become such an issue? Or do you have an opinion? >> I I couldn't tell you cuz I have no no idea why >> um other than the fact that >> we're an easy target. >> Uh just in terms of numbers. Um, and if you look at religion, >> yeah, >> uh, playing a factor, I mean, you've got the freaking Supreme Court saying conversion therapy, you know, taking a positive view of conversion therapy that has been, you know, the um, psychiatric and psychological community are against it. So, I mean, where do you go from there? Yeah, >> I think there's been more damage done in the last couple of years uh than can be resolved in the next decade or so, >> but >> I'm afraid so too. >> One one step at a time, one minute at a time, one battle at a time. >> I know there's nothing more we can do. But stepping onto a lighter note a little bit, moving on slightly, IML Now taking the experience gleaned at uh earlier events that you were a participant you moved on to IML. Now how did that begin for you? International Mr. Leather. >> I well I was an attendee from ' 89 to 99 and then just took a hiatus from everything. Uh, and I came back because a friend needed help in a department and asked me to volunteer. I did. I was there for 14 years and longer. >> Team stepped down. Then I stepped down with the team. >> I thought you were there longer for some reason. I don't know why I >> was there from 2010 to 2024. >> Okay. and I'll be there this year. >> Okay. But in a different capacity. Yes. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Uh because again, like I said earlier on in the interview, we were parallel at IML and never really got to know one another. >> Well, I mean it's a huge weekend with over 60 contestants. >> Um and y'all are hurting the contestants. We were hurting the judges. So parallel tracks but different work hours. >> Yeah. different responsibilities and it's a huge I mean hundreds of volunteers make that thing work in addition to the department heads and right now the two EDS David Ronenberg and Becky Purdue >> are working their butts off to make IML and IMBP a uh success this year and kudos to them and their teams. Everybody's been working hard and they're successful because the teams under them are successful. And >> yeah, >> it winds up being this big group effort that works because it's a big group effort, a big group party. >> Tell me about uh working with the judges. What did that entail for you? For anyone? >> Um well, it's different for everybody. I did food and beverage because I had some experience in the um uh restaurant industry and I speak Spanish. Um so I could interface with the um staff >> a little easier. >> Um and I have organizational skills. So for me it involved um taking orders, creating charts, >> um getting things down to the kitchen in a way that they understood what we needed when we needed it. >> Um letting them know when to fire that order cuz we had half an hour, 45 minutes for lunch. uh >> um you know, it would uh typically involve getting up at 6:00 in the morning and grabbing coffee for a couple of folks and then meeting up to figure out what that day was going to look like. M >> um so we usually started at the judges crew would start at 6:00 or 7 a.m. Um and then we'd finish at 3:00 or 4. Um do dinner and then back on duty 6:30 till 10:30, 11:00 at night. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Wake up the next morning, do it all over again. So, I did uh food for the judges during the day and I did beverages at night and that was drink tickets. Uh a lot of the judges are clean and sober just making sure that they had options. >> Oh, yeah. >> Uh and some of the judges were not and so is some of that involved how could I get drinks to the table without interfering with the judging experience? um or running drinks too quickly was >> not a good idea. >> Um so for me that job was very easy and came very naturally. Um but you know Peter uh Peter could was the one person who could get judges into the restrooms in the middle of a contest. >> Peter Fisk. Yes. is, you know, Peter Fizz could people stepped aside for Peter. >> That's right. >> Daddy Peter could get folks in and out of the restrooms. Nobody else could accomplish that in the same way >> with the same efficient >> see that a uh gay man from New York who moved to California could do. >> Um, so it was different for everybody. I found it very rewarding because I had a job to do. Mhm. >> Uh it made a huge event very accessible because I had to focus on nine people and our crew. Um and so it became easy and fun even though it was a ton of work. >> And when you're running drinks, the contest tends to go quicker. >> Uh sure. Wow. What were probably a couple of the worst examples you had to manage during that time? >> I cannot give you any information on the bad stuff. >> Challenges. >> Were there challenges? Absolutely. >> Will I disclose what they were? No, I don't know. >> Okay, that's fair, I suppose. Yeah. Now >> look, you're going to have challenges with anything and u you know the goal was to start on time and end on time and I think we were pretty successful. >> But you would have seen a lot of changes happen at IML during 14 years there. >> What were some of the changes that really were clear to you or that were were big? I couldn't tell you because that was my focus was boots on the ground. What's my job? >> I didn't pay attention to the changes. >> It's if there was a change, did it impact our schedule? >> Did I need to come in earlier? I think one of the changes that we made in our group or at some point in time was a judges dinner. So, we'd have the judges come in on Wednesday. >> Orientation starts Thursday. Opening ceremonies on Thursday, >> but we'd uh have them come in on Wednesday. We'd host a dinner on Wednesday night. >> We didn't pay for the dinner. They paid for their own dinner, >> but we created uh the ability to gather at a restaurant and just start the connection between >> those groups earlier. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So I think for us you wound up with a more cohesive group. >> Okay. >> Starting on Thursday. Uh but other than that, I couldn't tell you what changed from year to year, whether there were huge shifts or little shifts cuz >> Wow. Okay. >> I was just focused on my job. >> That's probably the easiest way to do it. >> Yeah. considering some of the things that went on. But again, switching over a little bit, you were really active in the leather kink and fetish community during the onslaught or in the even in the high high times of AIDS. So, how did you see AIDS impact the community? I mean, as I was living in San Francisco, um, from April 1st of 1990 till 96, 97,98ish. Um, we went from ACT to the cocktail >> and ACT decimated our community. the cure >> was killing people >> faster than the disease. >> Yeah. >> Um and so there was a lot of death, lost a lot of friends. >> Yeah. >> Um and you just, you know, different different experience with death. >> How do you mean? Uh well, when you you're going to three or four memorials a week, it changes you. >> Yeah. I've other people have said the same that basically survived that. And uh it's been it's always emotional to hear what they have to say. And you know, I'm coming into a community starting to explore my gayness and sexual attraction to other men who are attracted to men. >> And so it, you know, safer sex. >> Yeah. >> It was a time of safer sex. And then we got the cocktail and now we've got apertude and more options. Doxy pep. >> Yes. So >> folks folks with who've been HIV positive long term >> are dying from >> things that would kill you anyway as you got older, >> right? >> Versus it being specifically tied to, >> you know, pneumosistic pneumonia or >> something else. wild, you know, be there. Again, there have been so many stories that have been told to me from people that survived this that uh I never know what to expect, you know. >> Well, and there I mean, you've got folks who survived who have survivors guilt. >> Yes, that's true. >> You've got folks who survived who don't. >> True. >> Um or folks who came out later in life. >> Yeah. um who were spared >> that uh entire situation or that entire time.