Female Psychopath Explains How She Manipulates Men - Kanika Batra

You're a diagnosed sociopath. You also say that you're the most manipulative person I'll ever meet and that you can lie better than anybody. Why should I believe anything that you're about to tell me? >> Well, I don't have a lot to lose by lying. People know who I am. People know that I can manipulate in many different ways. It's just an idea of I understand that you're a certain type of person and I know how to work every type of person, but I can verify my diagnosis through independent sources like Business Insider. >> Why should I believe anything you're going to tell me over the next couple of hours? Why wouldn't you just manipulate your way through the entire conversation? >> Because I'm lifting the mask. Okay? I'm lifting the mask. I did it before. I'm going to do it again. I'm going to give you raw and unfiltered and then you can just cut out whatever you don't like. >> That sounds good to me. [laughter] Should I be scared of you? >> Absolutely not. I'm 5' for one. What am I going to do? >> That's fair. That's fair. Okay. So, what is a sociopath? What's your specific diagnosis? So, I've been diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder as well as narcissistic personality disorder and I fit the profile my psychiatrist says of a factor one psychopath because psychopathy actually comes from narcissism. So, the glibness, the superficial charm, the ability to essentially go from one job to another, being able to pathologically lie, all of those and being very grandiose. They're all very narcissistic traits. So that's where psychopath like psychopath diverges into factor one and factor two. Factor one is primary psychopathy. So that's basically your engine running. Factor two is you're causing a lot of problems to society. It's like the more anti societal norm behavior. So, it's like, you know, being a truent, stealing, uh, lying to people, committing crimes that would put you in prison, all of the reckless stuff that we tend to do. >> Mhm. >> So, I lean more onto the factor one because I've had a brain scan and my amydala does not light up. It just doesn't. So, I I know what people are feeling. I just will never feel it. And I know how to mimic an accurate response. something that they would want to see. Like if someone's just died, right? My friend died last week. I just I can cry on command. So I can just go to the funeral and cry. >> You seem distraught about it. >> I am. I only knew her for about 4 years. >> That's kind of long for a lot of people. Friendships longish. Okay. Talk to me about the DSM. Sociopath isn't a diagnosis. It's more a colloquial term for antisocial personality disorder. >> I wanted to explain that because everyone keeps getting at me like sociopath isn't a real thing or I thought you were so now you're saying psychopath. Okay, so antisocial personality disorder is one of the bases of psychopathy factor one and factor two. So factor one completely lacks anxiety and has no fear response which is me. Factor two is they do get a lot of anxiety. They get um very violent. They're very aggressive. They do not have a conscience. They are unable to feel guilt for anything that they've done. But they are hotteered. Whereas I'm cold essentially. I can plan over months and months if I'm trying to achieve something. They if you said for factor two, if you just say something that they find offensive, they will blow up. They will >> more impulsive. >> Yeah. Way more impulsive, way more chaotic, more likely to go to prison. >> Interesting. More dangerous or less dangerous? >> [sighs and gasps] >> It depends cuz a factor one psychopath let's say I don't know a good representation would be Hannibal Lectar like he he I think he's a bit of a threat but then >> sort of more chilling than terrifying. >> Yeah. Exactly. So factor one is chilling. Factor two is this guy's going to set me on fire right now. >> What about the antisocial personality disorder? What's that consistent? >> Antisocial. It the basic traits that you need is like a lack of remorse, lack of guilt, lack of empathy. um being having antisocial crimes. So anti-occietal norms. So this can include hurting animals, hurting children, hurting other people around you. That's sort of those are sort of the hallmarks of antisocial personality. And then when you combine antisocial and narcissistic and put them together, you get either a malignant narcissist or the kind of psych psychopath that will absolutely ruin your life. M what was childhood like for you? [sighs and gasps] >> Uh it was fine. Uh I used to witness a lot of domestic violence. So uh my father was aggressive towards my mother and my brother. I was never treated badly by my dad. He bought me anything I wanted. He essentially never said no to me. like we had just flown to Australia from New Zealand and I was five or so and I said I wanted a specific Barbie doll and he walked three kilometers to go get it even though it was jetlagged, you know. I was like cuz we had to pack up all our stuff and move and so that was something that I had. Um my mom would beat the [ __ ] out of me though because >> So dad beat mom and mom beat you? >> Yes. But I didn't mind because it's like that's the kind of discipline that I think I needed cuz I was a menace. I was an absolute menace. I was a truent. I used to lie. I used to steal. I used to physically harm people. Um I used to harm other children as well. Mostly my age. Like I pushed a girl down the stairs and she broke her leg in three different places. Um and then I got her suspended because I said that she made a racist claim, which she she didn't, but she she was uh the kind of person who you could believe would say something like that. So, um, >> how old were you? >> 14. >> Yeah. So, pretty early on I had conduct disorder and I had callus and emotional traits. >> Um, that's I guess that's why I got the antisocial personality disorder. It kind of is a precursor to that. Um, but I would say in terms of the rest of my childhood, I also had these. So, it's a blood disorder where my bone marrow can't produce its own red blood cells. So I have to get transfusions every 3 to 4 weeks and so because of that I got so much attention constantly like people were always around me making me making sure that I was feeling good you know not sick >> kind of center of attention not necessarily for a reason that you want but you still do get a lot of attention >> and then also because of that um also on top of that I should say is I did child modeling so I got a lot of validation from there too so I always got validation from everyone around me just not for the things but it was always for the things that I do not me as a human. >> So I feel like that kind of shaped how I saw things and how I made everything very transactional because >> what when did you realize that you were different? >> Probably four or five. >> What did that look like? It was just that I couldn't understand why people looked so happy and how they could be friends with each other and they didn't really do anything. Like I I couldn't understand what was so attractive about a person and wanting to be their friend. I was I was sort of forced to deal with other people. Like at my I think it was my fourth birthday or my third birthday. Um I had a friend who was a really fat girl and I told my mom like do not let her ride my new Barbie bike and she's too fat and it will break and she let her use the Barbie bike and it broke. So I'm just saying. But outside of that I was like how are people like how do people react like normally to things? How like what's wrong with me? It just it started to crystallize more around like I think 10 11. It just felt like there's like this glass between a wall of glass between me and other people. Like I can watch you. I can observe you. I can study what you do. I can see what's successful about you. And I will emulate that. But I will never feel it. Like I will never understand what proper I guess guilt feels like. >> I won't feel what remorse feels like. I I don't I've never had anxiety a day in my life. >> What have you come to believe about whether sociopaths are born or made? >> So I believe that factor one psychopaths are actually born and factor two psychopaths. I know they tend to say factor one is psychopath, factor two is sociopath, but that's inaccurate terming. For factor two, I would say that's being made. You're being made. >> Why? because that's after an abuse. Uh it's usually during an abusive home life. So they experience all of the like the volatility. They experience domestic violence. They see that this is the way to get power in life is to have physical strength and full control over another person. And it's it's it's so overwhelming for them. And they turn to violent crimes because of that. And I think with both of us, like both factor one, both factor two, they we have equal levels of loneliness. So we sort of channel it a little bit differently to them. >> Is there a history of mental illness or anything in your family? >> I would say my paternal side is extremely psychopathic. I know on my mom's side, there's one person who >> is there anyone worse than you? >> Yeah. Um, okay. So this is a pretty dark story, but Okay. So my aunt when she was 17, she had premarital sex with a guy who promised to marry her and then he refused to marry her and because she had been tarnished uh they weren't very happy with her in the family. So she was found burned on a stove. She had thirdderee burns all over her body and she asked for a red sari to be buried like not buried but in when she was in the hospital fighting for her life. She asked for a red sari because she believed like she was gonna get to marry the guy that she sucked. >> What's a red sari? Sorry. >> So you would wear that at your wedding. You know a sari like the Indian. Yeah. And so yeah, she asked for that. And I asked my dad like cuz I didn't even know this happened because >> burned on a stove. >> Yeah. Her head was put on the stove and then they put kerosene on her as well for the rest. >> Who did? >> My grandfather >> because she'd had sex before marriage. >> You refused to marry her. Yeah. So, she's tarnished. >> Did she survive? >> No, she's dead. I didn't know she existed. Like, I saw a photo of four little kids in my dad's like there's like this old box that he has. And I was like, "Okay, but you have two siblings. Who are these other ones? Like, which one's you?" He's like, "No, that's Raju and that's Baby." And Baby was the one who was killed and she was only 17. Raju died from I think some sort of kidney problem. >> Okay. Yeah, that might be a little bit of a history. >> Yeah. And then on my mom's side, this one's crazy. So, my uncle, he got married five times, different women, swindled all of them, took all of their money, took all of their happiness and sanity, and then he ended up um selling my grandparents' home, which is worth a lot a lot, to um three different people. So he took the money from three different people and he fled to America. So if he ever goes back onto Indian soil, he will be arrested. >> Five women swindled all of them, sold the house. >> Yeah. And now he's married to his childhood sweetheart. >> Look, you can't have a happy ending apparently after all of that. Uh what what do you think it was like for your parents growing up with you? My mom used to call me Shatan, which is Satan in Hindi. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Um, >> everyone's going to have a cute nickname, I suppose. >> I guess. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, she she called me Shatan. They had problems with me early on because I was like attacking other children. And so, they were like, "Oh, what's wrong with you?" And I'm like, "I don't know. If I knew, I wouldn't be in this position. >> What did that look like? >> It was just I guess because I've I've heard other children, so I've It's not always like something you can discuss, but I would say it's more like apart from pushing the girl down the stairs, like I've burnt people, like I've done some things and my parents had to cover for me a lot. So that was a problem. But because I did so well academically, the teachers would always side with me. Everything was like kind of copathetic for me. And yeah, but my mom used to call me Satan. Um, my dad said, my dad calls me Gria, which means little doll. And uh, so I got like unending affection from my dad cuz my first word was papa. And yeah. M so >> do you think that there's something around the tension between dad seemingly being coddling and enabling and mom being the disciplinarian that created a bit more tension? >> Yeah, I'd say so because anytime I would cry or cause like any stress in the family, my dad would always always take my side and that would mean that he'd have a fight with my mom. And so I I guess I weaponized that a lot. M. >> So, it kind of created a triangulation that I didn't know was a thing back then cuz like I'm like I don't know 7 8 9. When did this get most extreme or intense? Because I don't know you haven't walked in here at least yet. You haven't attacked anybody or burnt anyone or you know >> the it seems to me you you're now married. You got a husband who who's come with you. That seems relatively domesticated compared with the person that we're hearing about from childhood. >> Yes. >> If you're sort of tracking over time when the most intensity of this un Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Talk me talk me through the the timeline of sort of where that got to and where it fell off. >> Absolutely. So, I would say the worst worst was in my teenage to early 20ies. So, I stole from people including my parents. I was very violent in my high school. I would cause like a not only physical damage, like I used to push this girl off her stool every morning and the stools are pretty high. They're up like here in the science lab and so I would knock her down every single day and her legs were super bruised. Um, I would also end up like I I guess sabotaging friends who I thought were getting more success than me or I'd get very very angry if someone said that I wasn't as intelligent as I knew I was because of my scores. So that would result in like fist fights and pulling people's hair out. >> But as you've said, you're 5'1. >> I know. But back >> and would have been smaller back then. >> Back then? No, I've been 5'1 since I was like 12. >> Okay. All right. Cool. Yeah. >> Yeah. But luckily other women are easily like other female children are easy to neutralize when you you know what to go for. If you go for the eyes, if you go for the throat, if you go to certain areas of the body, it's like no matter what your size is. >> You sound like the new the New Zealand Bass Routten, if you know who that is. The guy from the [ __ ] UFC. >> Oh, >> go on. >> Yeah, that's brilliant. Um, so that was bad. But then in my early 20s, it was like fraud. I would steal people's credit cards. I would go like have a competition with my friend who I believe also has antisocial personality to see what we could take from different stores. Um, and there was actually a fair bit. There was I was pretty awful to people like I would break up with them on their birthdays. Um, create uh like create drama in terms of smearing their character because I know how to do that very well. But because I was like sort of shifting a little bit because I was seeing a psychiatrist. So when I got diagnosed like do you want to know about that? >> Yes. >> Okay. So I got diagnosed at 21 and this was after I tried to kill myself because I tried to kill myself cuz I was getting migraines every day and I was thinking I don't want to live with this kind of pain daily. So and the doctors weren't taking me seriously. My GP told me to stop calling. My neurologist said it wasn't a big deal. And I'm like yeah it's not a big deal for you bro. you're not dealing with it. And so I was like, "Okay, [ __ ] it. I'm going." So I took the pills, woke up in hospital, realized I'd failed. Um disappointed about that. >> What did you do? What did you try and do? >> Uh I took 15 pills. So 15 amatropulines, which really is actually lethal. So I don't know what happened. Um and so I woke up and they said, "Do you want to be in a in an inpatient facility or do you want to go outpatient?" And I was like, "Yeah, outpatient. I'm not going to go into that house. I'm sorry. And so when I went, I was evaluated for over 16 months by a forensic psychiatrist. I've actually been on TV with him. Um, and he told me that I had antisocial personality disorder. He told me I had narcissistic personality disorder. He would talk about ways because, oh yes, I forgot to say he also worked in prisons. So he would try to discourage me from criminal activity because he would tell me specific stories about the women that and what they get treated like in there in that prison. So he's like you will he didn't try to do it from a moralistic place. He did it from you're going to suffer. You're going to have >> very utilitarian. >> Yes. Utilitarian. That's exactly the word. That's exactly how he talked to me. and like talking to him probably made me a bit more glib, a bit better at like creating charm. Um, >> why? >> Because he would teach me ways of talking to people that were kind of new to me. So, I would weaponize that sort of language and mimic sort of I'm very good at mimicking people. So, I'm good at mirroring. I'm good at giving the right responses. And he kind of taught me some of the right responses that I didn't already know. So, what he's trying to do is explain to you the situation, explain your diagnosis to this person who's 21 years old and has been dealing with this for as long as she can remember. But what he's actually doing is laying out a blueprint of how other people operate. Exactly. >> Which you then take and use. >> Exactly. Okay. >> And use specific language to do it. So, that was really helpful by >> like what specific language? So, you know, if someone's going through something like or you're going through some severe pain in your life, just being able to say, "I understand what you're doing. I like I feel it really badly. I can't believe this is happening to you. You mean so much to me." >> And then just the tears >> and yeah, interesting. >> That would be generally what I >> You know, the idea of a pea zombie? Have you heard of this? >> No, I haven't. >> Philosophical zombie. So, it's a a thought experiment. I think people kind of accuse AI of being this too. It's able to do all of the things. Imagine you had a human that looks like a human, walks and talks like a human and makes all of the actions and responds that way. But there's nothing there's no motivation going in inside. That's not quite the same because there are motivations. It's just the reason for the motivations are more contrived. Yes. >> With you. But it is kind of pez zombie adjacent a little bit. >> Yeah. A little bit interesting. That actually makes sense. >> Uh okay. What emotions do you feel? I feel all emotions except for like I don't think empathy counts as an emotion. So I would say the fleeting emotions are like joy, happiness, being a proud of myself. Um anything positive is very long lot anything positive is very shortlived. everything negative like rage, like uh contempt, uh anything along the lines of anger that stays for a while, >> which is really frustrating because it's like why couldn't you give me more of the good stuff? Like why am I feeling the bad stuff? I don't >> Why is there not psychopathy for positive emotions? >> Yeah. Well, it's the >> people walking around in bliss all the time remembering all the nice things that happened to you. >> Yeah. And the problem is it's like two different areas of the brain. So, one is like, "Yeah, you should feel [ __ ] all the time." And one's like, "I'll give you 5 seconds of like a good time today." And it's like, "Why are you doing this to me?" >> Tell me if this sounds familiar. You train regularly. You eat reasonably well. You feel fine, but you're just kind of going off vibes. Most people have absolutely no idea what's going on inside their body. 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So, you feel all emotions, but you skew toward negative >> unfortunately. and and not just it sounds not so much is it depressive negative or like active negative. >> No. So I do like experience depression if you will but for me it's no profound sadness. It's a completely flat feeling of having nothing and you just consume so much time like volumes of time and you don't even know what you've done with it and so it's like you kind of just flounder up and that lasts for a while unfortunately. >> So I really don't like that. I can't handle boredom at all. >> You said uh you don't think that empathy is an emotion. No. >> But something like uh guilt I think would would almost certainly I think almost certainly guilt has to be. Guilt is the reason that guilt exists is to identify. It's a a selfidentifier from your system to tell you that there is an imbalance in the uh ledger between you and something else or somebody else that I have taken too much from this situation. You can imagine why in a tribe this would be needed that you need to ensure that everybody else sees you in a positive manner. And if you're the person that's always taking from the food and never giving it, you should feel guilt because it's an early warning sign that hey, other people are not going to like you at some point in future, which is where the transactional stuff comes from. But for you, >> that's so interesting. I actually didn't know that. So the way I see guilt as a social, it's a social conditioning emotion that is generally useless because what can I do about things I've done 20 years ago? Like am I going to go say sorry and just going to fix it? No, it's not. >> I guess that's why I burnt a lot of bridges. But it's it's just something that I don't feel. It's like I live in the present. If it's not in the present, it doesn't matter. >> Well, you say that you live in the present, but a lot of time is being spent maybe planning and concocting ways to get back at people. That's living in the future to a degree. >> That is Yeah. Okay. So, I've been asked that before. So basically what I do is like in my everyday life I have you know interactions with people on a daily basis like I I coach a lot of people they want to be ruthless so they somehow come to me and um so they come to me they're like make me less emotional so at that time I'm telling them exactly how I feel and what I do but in terms of if someone has wronged me that stays lodged in my head until it is taken care of. So, there was a group of 1,200 women on Reddit who were posting images of my They said I should get raped again. They gave my address to the racist. They would comment on every single thing that was wrong with me about my appearance, which was wild stuff. So, when I found out certain people were in that group, I realized that justice needs to be served. So, I intend to ruin one of their birthdays every single year. So far, I've ruined 3 years. >> What have you done? >> I sent a pig's head to her door. I sent the police for a welfare check. I sent a mariachi band to come at 6:00 a.m. I sent the Jehovah's Witnesses. And I will next time be sending the Mormons. >> Well, that's the worst one of all by far. Um, [gasps] >> she was shocked by the pig on the I'm not going to lie. >> You've said that you >> Oh, sorry. And and I don't know if you watched the help, but Minnie makes a like a very specific pie for her old boss. And let's just say there's feal matter in there. Luckily, it was outsourced cuz I couldn't do something like that. But that was delivered to her house. And I hope she ate it. >> And this is one person. >> Yes. >> And this was the leader of this Reddit group that was that you say was a attack on you of some kind. >> Exactly. What was their issue with you? >> Uh, I think it was just I don't know. There was leaked uh video or some not video, audio, and it wasn't legitimate. It was like just a string of my words put together from different clips and they're like, "Oh, she's such a bigot. Oh, she's such a, you know, piece of shit." All of that stuff. >> What were they accusing you of having said >> racism, >> right? Okay. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, and I was like, I >> And what's your heritage? Indian. >> Indian. >> Right. >> Yeah. I was like, I didn't say that. Like, I've never said that. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. And then also because Sam had made some posts on Twitter. >> This is your husband. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> He made posts on Twitter about um Virginia Du Fray and he was just making showing >> Jeffrey Epstein person. >> Yep. >> He was showing some inconsistencies in the stories all and then they blamed me for that. So I was meant to be like the full guy or something. I don't know. Like they decided I was the proxy. I would be attacked constantly. >> Are they still around? I mean, we got the Reddit thing taken down, which is great, but >> what else from an emotion standpoint is is interesting. I'm aware that a lot of this to you must be [sighs and gasps] like me talking about what it's like to be Harry Potter the wizard that it's very hypothetical, right? But I imagine that you've spent a good bit of time thinking about not just so that you can manipulate other people, but so that you can function in the world, at least remotely well, what the difference is between your experience and other people's. How else what are the other big differences you think between sort of how you go through a day in terms of feeling things? Yeah. Emotions operating. >> So most things I don't feel very heavily. So if something happens and it's a great thing like I don't know doing a podcast with you, >> I'll be like afterwards, damn, that was fun. Or like damn, that's going to be cool when it comes out. Um that'll last for about 20 minutes. And then I'll see someone like say something annoying on Instagram and I'll be like, should this person get attacked later or not? And then I'll sort of go go through that. Um, but recently I've found Christianity through Charlie Kirk and that has radically changed a lot of what I do. So yeah, people don't really like hearing about religion or politics. And I'm a conservative who has a lifelong conservative and I love Charlie Kirk and that kind of they don't like religion either. So >> what was that brought on by? >> So when he passed I I loved Charlie Kirk so much prior to him passing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I loved him so much. Like I loved everything he said. I loved how kind he was. I loved how he was he was like the true beacon of masculinity if there ever was one. >> Seems surprising that you would admire somebody who's kind given >> Yeah. uh he's the good person that I can't be and then when the when he was taken from the world I just realized there's no good in the world. >> What was the lesson that you took from that? >> Well, initially it was how cruel people are and like how disgusting they are and if I as a psychopath have more of a morality than you, it's saying something. And so I saw these people just like mocking his death and like it became a trend on Tik Tok and I was like he was a [ __ ] human being, bro. He was a human being. He was 31. >> It just really pissed me off. And so like I I actually grieved him more than I've grieved anyone in my life, including my family. Like my grandfather died in front of my eyes, not the one who burned his daughter. He died in front of my eyes when I was 10 years old. So [snorts] that No. No emotion, nothing. The other grand grandparents die, no emotion. Friends die, no emotion. But like for Charlie Kirk, I was crying every single day. Made no sense. >> Is that strange? Is that a strange situation for you? >> It is. It's because I don't know if there's any other kind of like such strong masculinity that's not also like just nasty. You know what I mean? Like the way he would talk about women like he would always be very gentle with women. like he wouldn't um he wouldn't yell at them, he wouldn't do anything like he would be calm, he would lead, he would provide, he would protect >> and so and he did it in such a way and we did we differ on some beliefs but we all of us differ on beliefs. So >> and your conversion to Christianity's happened after Charlie's passing. >> Yes. So I started feeling the urge to read the Bible again because my parents are Christian and I purposely did not become Christian. So I read the Bible properly like I through a context and everything and I found Orthodox Christianity which has really spoken to me and I love that it's a hospital so they see it as a hospital and not a courtroom which is really nice cuz like when you've been called a bad person your entire life like you you kind of want someone who's like no you can be you can be redeemed. >> Yes. >> Do you think you're a bad person? No. >> Why? >> Because I used my skills to help people. Initially, I did hurt a lot of people, but eventually I built my platform and women who I've helped women escape domestic violence. I've helped them heal from sexual trauma. I've helped them like own their own lives. And so, like, I just felt like that was a positive thing that I could do to offset the bad stuff. And >> there might be a little bit of penance to be paid. Yeah. By the sounds of the first couple of decades of life. I'm interested in this pivot to Christianity a little bit because >> one of the core tenants of that is to turn the other cheek. >> That's what I'm having the biggest problem with. >> As somebody who >> biggest problem with, >> you've said that you love revenge. >> Yes. >> Why? >> Because I believe in an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. If you are ready and willing to make me feel like [ __ ] about something, you should be prepared to feel the same back. Like recently, I had some ugly girl comment on my video saying, "Oh, you're not 40 kilos. You're more like 62 and you're like you like you're losing your attractiveness. You need a better brain." And I was like, "Listen, [ __ ] I am like I am 40 kilos. If you would like to watch the scale, you can." And then uh I was just like if you think that you should be making commentary I feel like you have not seen a mirror in a very very long time. And so I have my best friends who will like go and sort of swarm as well. So like if you're willing to try and like knock at me because I had an eating disorder growing up and that's also what happened in the group. They were constantly trying to call me fat so that I would go back to an eating disorder. >> Yeah. So [ __ ] women. I swear to God. Um, and so yeah, so I'm I'm telling her to go to the gym. Like you can see the fat rolled on her face and she like >> I am exactly 40 kilos. >> What What is the most extreme length that you've gone through to get revenge on someone? >> Oh, okay. So there was a girl I did pageantss with. So she won a pageant and she went to the international and anyway so she came back. We did miss world together and she was super arrogant and she was really really rude. She'd get under my skin a lot. So she would say like certain races shouldn't be able to compete, certain people shouldn't be able to compete. Short girls shouldn't be able to compete. And I was like, "All right, this bit it's time for this [ __ ] to learn a lesson." So I deleted anything controversial that I said. I screen recorded the whole thing. Um, and then I sent it to every single girl that she had insulted. I sent it to the pageant director who in immediately kicked her out of the competition because she is she's a liability at that point. So, they throw her out and it's her last year to actually be in pageantss cuz she's too old. So, she can't compete again. And that's what I took the most satisfaction in. If you're saying that someone like me shouldn't compete, you will never compete. >> And so, yeah, she she was completely taken out. And then I decided to take it an extra level. Um, I reached out to Miss Venezuela. And Miss Venezuela has millions of people who support her. And let's luckily this this woman, she was awful enough to let me know that she let Miss Venezuela sleep through her alarm and missed the preliminary finals. >> And so I told her, I'm like, you know, she purposely didn't let you go. And then I think the entire country of Venezuela that is in love with pageantss turned on this girl and they were leaving so many hate comments for like months and she had to go private and then she she got a lawyer and let's just say she works in retail so it would have taken her hours and hours and hours and weeks to earn enough money to get a lawyer to send me a cease and desist letter to which I responded lol Because if she had actually anything against me, if she had the means to sue me, she would have done so. She wouldn't have given me a cease and desist. >> And this is because she said some mean words to you. >> Yeah. >> And was making racist comments and stuff. >> That's it. Yeah. >> You managed to set the entire country of Venezuela on >> Yeah. >> this person. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Have you been to jail? >> No, sir. >> Certainly some things you've done that could have got you to go. >> Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But people wouldn't believe it. Like people don't look at me like would would you think that I do anything that I do that you wouldn't? And I'm generally quite smart. Like >> I tested 138 and I'm never testing again in case it's lower than that cuz I couldn't live with that shame. >> It seems like with a few of the things that you've brought up, um I am 40 kilos, I promise. Uh my IQ is 138. Like I don't want to test it again in case it goes back. um some sensitivity around people saying what's happening with your age, what's whatever. It feels like uh status and um renown, competence, reputation. It feels like that that that's a core >> it is. It is >> part of what it is that you desire. Is that right? >> Absolutely. I think that is what comes from the narcissism as whereas like the ASPD or the psychopathy is more the machine in my brain that tells me to slow down and do it in a way that doesn't like blow back at me. So >> Oh, so you've got that's an interesting way to look at it that one is a one is an engine and the other is a brake pedal. >> Exactly. Exactly. That's how I see it. >> Um I hate the narcissism. I'm not going to lie. I wish I could just be just not worry about other people saying like thinking that they're better than me. Like I wish I could say that. I wish I could actually be in a position where I don't care so much about looks, um, intelligence, worth, status. >> Um, but I feel like those are objective metrics that have been proven. Like if you're in a beauty pageant, there's certain there's a certain level of beauty that you've attained. If you do extremely well on your year 12 exams, which I did, then you have intelligence. If you have a an actual quantifiable number of your IQ, that shows that you're not dumb. So, when someone says that those things aren't true or they'll accuse me of having a fake nose cuz it's small or breast implants, it's like that's my genetic superiority. and you're trying to say that I'm a normal person who had to go pay for it. And it pisses me off so much. And that's why my psychiatrist was like, "We need to detach you from these things because it's going to be really really bad when you do age." Like when And like my parents look really good. >> Yeah, because it's coming. >> Yeah, it it will be coming. But my parents >> How old are you? >> I am 30. >> Cool. Have you ever wanted to kill anything? >> Yes. >> What? >> People. >> Okay. >> Yeah. How'd that go? [gasps] >> Um, not so well yet because I have a lot of people around me who would stop it from happening. But I would plan it over a long period of time. There are some people like in that snark group for example, >> the Reddit thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. I would absolutely just skin them if I could like physically myself like Katherine Knight. >> Who's that? >> Uh, she's an Australian woman. first woman to get um life in prison without parole because she ended up so she killed her boyfriend because he didn't want to get married and he she stabbed him like a hund and something times. Then she skinned him like a full skin suit and hung him up by the door and then she cut off his head and sorry um it was on the stove and she cut off his like meaty parts and cooked them and so she was going to serve them to his children and >> that weren't her children presumably. >> Yeah. >> Right. And so that was and then she took some benzo and fell asleep and tried to act like she had an overdose. But um I feel like that's what they deserve some of these people for the hell that they put me through. Especially because I was dying in the Maldes. Like I hadn't had a blood transfusion. My hemoglobin was so low and my oxygen saturation was like I was like on the edge of dying. And these [ __ ] had the audacity to be planning this, writing an open letter to Kenneka Batra. If you don't do this and this and this and this, we're going to destroy your life. We're going to go into every part of your comment section, which they do. We're going to like send you horrific emails. We're going to try and make give you bad reviews on your book, even though I know it's good, even though most people I think I've gone a single person saying it's bad. And so it it's like if you have that capacity to treat me that way, you don't deserve to be on this planet. >> This episode is brought to you by Whoop. Most people treat recovery like it's optional. But unlike politicians, data doesn't lie. How you recover is literally going to determine how good your next day is going to be. And Whoop tracks all of it. Sleep, strain, heart rate, recovery. 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I'm noticing inside of me as you're talking the balance between the emotion of wanting to give you sympathy for going through that cuz that sounds horrendous being on the edge of dying in the molds and also like absolutely knowing that you didn't feel much other than the rage and the resentment in the bitterness. It's very strange. Obviously it's because you're explaining there's so much uh exposition going on. I'm like, why is feeling sympathy for somebody who doesn't feel guilt a very interesting uh calculation equation to try and do in my head? Like I like that's that's mean and horrible for anybody to go through. >> But also this person >> doesn't respond in the normal way to that. >> It's very it's very interesting and I'm noticing that coming up inside of me. Cool. [laughter] Um, okay. So, you would kill somebody if you could get away with it, you think? >> Yes. >> Okay. I've heard you talk about freedom, like not wanting to risk your freedom >> as a big part of this. Is that the main sort of utilitarian? >> I would say so. >> Reason that forensics the likelihood. So, if you had the skill to do it? >> Yeah. I mean, if I had the privilege of being able to do it like Ted Bundy, I actually relate a lot to Ted Bundy. Not for the killing stuff, not at all. But he had the same sort of like I listen to the hours and hours of him talking and he has a lot of like word salads but when he actually talks about his experiences like when he he didn't know how to talk to people and he didn't know how people would associate with each other. So he used to listen to talkback radio so he could understand how actual conversations work and how they should be happening >> because obviously it wasn't happening naturally for him. And then he would talk about the same kind of depression that I have where it's not profound sadness at any point. It's just this feeling of like I can't do anything. And it's like you're just laying there >> flat. >> Flat. Just flat. There's nothing that can like lift you out of it. >> And so that's something I really related to. >> It's like depression without the sadness. >> Yeah. Literally. Literally. It's depression without sadness. So, >> what was it like when you first started listening to Ted Bundy talk? >> It was that was the first thing and then how he struggled to make friends because he couldn't understand why people found it off-putting by the things that he was doing. Like he would set like cages. Oh, he'd set up a trap in the forest. So, he'd have a trap door and then there'd be like sticks and stuff holding it back. And so people would fall in and they'd hurt themselves cuz it'd be a bear trap. And he couldn't understand why that was bad and why people hated him for it. And I couldn't understand why people hated me for what I did because like I it wasn't something that I'd planned or anything. It was just something that happened. And then also the way his family would treat him like they would call him evil when he was just a child. I don't think any child is inherently evil. So when like that really hit home, the fact that he had this white girlfriend, uh Diane Edwards as she's known now, um how she dumped him and he was just so angry about it because he had like he built himself up to be this person who's at university who, you know, has achieved a fair bit and the revenge that he had after that like leading her on for a whole year and then planning a wedding and and then he just stopped writing to her completely. He stopped. He stopped communicating. She was frantic and she called him. She's like, "Why are you doing this?" And he's like, "I don't know what you're talking about." And hung up on her and she never heard from him again. >> So, I I like the idea of that as revenge, but also like how he would flip-flop at university, so he'd do different degrees. Like, I've done that. Um, he never really held a stable job. I've held stable jobs, but it's just like I get bored within a month or two and then I'll be gone. >> It's different if I had like, you know, my own show and like if I'm in conservative media, like for that I've always been interested. And he went straight into politics. I went straight into politics. On my 16th birthday, I joined my Conservative party, which is the Liberal Party in Australia. I joined at 16. I was VP by 19. And so he was there to rub elbows with like more I guess wealthy people whereas I just did it because I have a lot of rage and I have a lot of like ability to scheme and plan things. And so in politics you're rewarded for that. You're rewarded for any sort of brevity you have. Like I had a friend who backstabbed his mother. I won't go into it but he backstabbed his own mother to be in the faction. So it's like where you thrive, your sadism can thrive without you actually going to prison. >> And so he utilized that as well. >> You wrote a book that had Ted in, right? >> Yes. >> That's it was a fiction novel. >> Fiction. It was and a female serial killer at the same time. >> It certainly seems like there are some analogies between the female protagonist and yourself. >> Yeah, people keep saying that. I'm like, no, she's way better than me. You mean more proficient at what she does? >> More profession, more attractive, like richer. >> Would that not be the dream >> ideal version of me? >> No. Because there's a lot of things that she does that I can't do is like the promiscuity. Promisecuity really disgusts me. Like it gives me a visceral reaction. I don't know why, but like if I like it's hard to see someone as a person like if they're, you know, doing really vulgar things. I guess cuz I grew up in such a conservative home that like that stuff is seen as very generate. >> I've got a video that I want you to react to. >> Sure. >> Let's get this up. Mark >> Rodney Alkala, >> don't say it like that. It may be the creepiest episode ever on the dating game because this bachelor looking for love back in 1978 is actually a serial killer. >> I'm called the banana and I look really good. >> No one had any idea that Rodney Alcala had already launched his killing spree when he appeared on the popular dating show. >> He was a real creepy guy, a real idiot. Jed Mills was Bachelor number two and nearly 40 years later he's still haunted by their encounter. >> This creep comes up and he puts his face practically in my face and he says, "I always get the girl." When I think about what he said, "I always get my girl." He kills him. That's what he's talking about. >> What's your best time? >> The best time is at night. Nighttime. Despite Alcala's weird behavior on the dating game, the Bachelorette chose him but never went on the date because she reportedly found him creepy. And lucky for her, because Alcala would later be found guilty of seven murders. Investigators believe he may have actually killed up to 130 victims based on photos found on his property. >> Why did you respond that way when you saw him? Uh he's just someone I find really fascinating cuz um I was actually watching a documentary on him probably about a year ago and it was actually crazy how much he managed to get away with. Also his eyes are so demonic. Like you can just see in them there's nothing behind there. There's no soul in that at all. And you can see his contempt towards women. And if you'll notice, there's no duchen smile. Like when >> so when it's a genuine smile, you'll see it up here as well. Like there'll be crinkles there. Like his stays entirely here. And so he's not being genuine at all. Like if you look at his eyes. >> Oh wow. >> Yeah. There's nothing there. And if you actually muted the video and played it, you can see the micro expressions on his face that he he's getting like that delight from duping somebody. >> That's interesting. So the your ability to convince somebody of something that you're not, that is itself rewarding, >> I would say. So yeah. >> What's your dating history like? >> Always a serial monogamist. So I don't get into like I don't think that sexual activity or anything of that sort should be outside of a serious relationship. ideally marriage, but serious relationship will do in this society. Um, and so because of that, I primarily date cuz I am bisexual, but I would sort of have a a number of different people that I would go on dates with and I would selectively cut them off. Like basically, I would trim it down till I had the person I wanted. >> Okay. And then with them like you know it's it's fantastic to have somebody but I could never really lift the mask for any of them cuz like I couldn't be fully myself and it's very tiring when you have to wear this mask constantly and you know that there's going to be consequences if you don't. >> What does not wearing the mask look like in a relationship? >> I it can get pretty ugly. Um, I I do still get a lot of rage and while I'm better at handling it, I get very very frustrated at people around me for like not doing the right thing and backing me up immediately or doing things like that. Um, I can't tell them honestly about things that I've done because it's just it it's too much to fathom. Like there's this um there's an article that I mention a lot, the hidden suffering of the psychopath, and it shows how lonely psychopaths get even if they're dating multiple people. Like that like even say Ted, that's that's why they believe that, you know, they believe that psychopaths can feel grief and love and whatnot. And so the problem is is that loneliness and that wedge between you and other people can turn you into someone who commits violence. And that wasn't what I mention you'd probably think differently. So that's sort of the issue I have. And also like I get very very tired of people like if they're too high maintenance and I like they're constantly texting, constantly calling. It's like why don't you get another job? Because if you would like you have so much time on your hands and you want to chat on the phone all day like I have things to do. So it's like the the clinginess I can't deal with but then again nonchalant I can't really deal with either. It kind of has to be this happy balance. And trust me, it was very hard to find that. >> I've heard that you say you have pure contempt for most partners after 3 months. >> Yes. >> What was happening there? >> I think I would start to see them as the real person that they were instead of the fantasy that I projected onto them. And like I tend to put people on a pedestal sometimes. And I also actually really love giving gifts and I love love bombing. I do it naturally. It's not it's not necessarily planned. So I love doing all of that. And then they get hooked on it and then they start getting really really obsessive. They'll be like, "Oh, okay. Why aren't you calling me more? Oh, are you seeing other people? You must be seeing other people." And so there's this like contempt like I have to handle this creature. I have to like care about it and do good things for it >> and it's like it just becomes like pros versus cons. >> You want to do it on your terms because you want to love bomb them when you want to love bomb them. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> But you don't want to do it when they want it. No, no. It's that's partially I would say it, but also also I would say that it's just overwhelming because my internal system is flat. It's completely flat. Whereas people's spikes and it drops and it's like I I don't have time for that. I don't want to deal with that. That's also why I would never actually um date or truly be friends with someone with borderline personality disorder because they're a pen in many shoes or something severe. Like I had one who would text me literally like five times an hour who because I wasn't responding or my tone seemed wrong and it's just like like I have important things to do. like she was threatening suicide every weekend. So, I had to be on the on the phone with emergency services telling them that she'd cut hers at wrists in a shallow manner. And it was so frustrating. She'd have all of these tears constantly and I was like, I can't deal with this. It's not my problem. I just I get fed up. >> Well, it kind of is your problem if you're in a relationship with someone, right? Cuz you want them to be there for you when you need them. your friend who stayed up until 4 in the morning, you have an awful lot of respect and gratitude for her for doing that. >> Absolutely. >> But if your partner was either attempting to or threatening to take her own life, that felt like that was burdensome to you. >> Well, she did it every weekend. That's the problem. Like if she did it once in 6 months, okay. But there was a lot of other things. She had a drinking problem. Like she expected me to pay for everything. It's like, well, I [snorts] don't want to do that. 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You get 30 days of free returns globally with global shipping and a 10% discount sitewide. So, get that 10% discount by going to the link in the description below or heading to jim.sh/modernwisdom sh/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom10 at checkout. That's jim.sh/modernwisdism and modernwisdom10 a checkout. Given the I find it hard to not feel straight contempt for somebody after 3 months slightly non-typical approach when it comes to scrutinizing partners and dating multiple people at least in the beginning at once. Given that why have you gotten into dating advice? because other people need to learn science of manipulation. Especially I got started when it was like the Red Pill podcast and everyone was like trying to degrade women and make women humble women, tell them that they're not special, tell them that like there was the the advice was literally on par with the infographs on domestic violence. So the isolating, the gaslighting, like the triangulation, making her feel crazy. Like I know how that works cuz I've done that before. So I figured like, you know, I have all of these women who all of a sudden like me and they are having so many problems. They like email me every single day and say, "Oh, I have this happening. I have this happening. Please help me. No one else can help me." And so I guess cuz I come across as like ruthless sometimes or very friendly at other times. They get the impression that I will care about what they're dealing with. So >> do you? >> Only once, I think. Only once. Like it was it was a bad situation. It's interesting because you're obviously passionate about this topic, but you still don't really care about the people that are going through it. It's like you seem to care about the sort of symbolic injustice. >> Yes. >> But not the human side. >> Exactly. >> Also, I'm noticing throughout the conversation a lot of um male power over women is a big bug bear for you, especially manipulative male power over women. that that's something that shouldn't happen. Perhaps history, abuse, assault, also maybe seeing dad with mom. Have you have you tried to sort of reverse reverse engineer where this evangelism for not having men manipulate women comes from? I mean, you know, >> everybody should be able to agree that that's bad. But for you, it has a different flavor to it. >> Absolutely. So, obviously with Indian culture, it's very patriarchal. Um, and so men had the final say and everything. And when I was 13, my mom told me that it was time for me to learn how to cook. I said, "Sure. Is my brother learning, too?" And she's like, "No, you're a girl. You do it." And I was like, "Fuck that. I'm not going to do this." So I was just like, "No, I'm not going to play into this." And then obviously I've seen the dynamic online. I've been on the receiving end. Like I I absolutely would annihilate anyone who wouldn't egg me like Yeah. So that would happen a lot like at a casino at one point. A guy was like, "Yeah, you're you're hot, but you're not that hot. Like you're not like I wouldn't go for someone like you normally." I was like, "Listen, you're 5' 6" and fat. No one wants you, especially not me. Um but yeah, I do feel that I I have had a mental soft spot for women going through abuse. But but everyone except the one man who raped me. Every other person who's ever been good to me has been a man. And every person who's caused me stress or caused me any kind of struggle in life is always women. Women were in that group. Women are are in my comment section like oh policing my tone. Women are the ones spreading rumors. Women are the problem. >> Interesting that most of your protection is of women against men. But at least in your experience, most of your good treatment has been from men and not from women. >> Literally, men have always helped me. Men have been my dad's loved me forever. Men on the street help me parallel park. >> So, what do you think's going on there? Square that circle. >> You know what's really odd is Okay, so I had this initially. I didn't think men had feelings. Like, I literally thought men don't have emotions. >> Mhm. >> So, seeing someone have emotions, it was like, okay, maybe they they do. Um, but realizing that they're the ones who have assisted me since like day one and they're the ones who have supported me and been like loyal apart from my two female friends. It's just I don't know why I had the advocacy for women >> and I don't know like I actually have quite a contempt for some of my audience because they're very leftist sort of feminists and they want me to be like on their terms about like [clears throat] gender and [ __ ] and I don't believe in that. >> Okay. What are the best pieces of dating advice you've got for women? So never sleep with them until they you're in a serious relationship because your body wasn't meant to be used by multiple people regularly and also your heart wasn't designed to break for so many people. Um I would always make sure that you are actually safe. You you don't have like any concerns about red flags. So, you should like I put out some advice in terms of red flags like if he's pushing too soon in terms of he's flooding you with attention, he's giving you everything you want, he's so he's basically everything that you think of all through the day. That's a bad thing. That's really really bad. You don't you don't want to you don't want a guy who is making you feel like that because he's depriving you of contact from other people who will pull you back into reality. Also, um I tend to tell women not to say people's names under their actual name and to use a mildly insulting term to keep them there like to for their contact name. And then also turn >> hang >> let me get to it. >> Okay. >> Also turn off notifications on Instagram and on uh any other platforms and also turn off your activity status. So, I do this because one, dopamine comes in real quick from attention from this person. So, you don't want to have the the life sucked out of you because you've slowly been developing this level of respect for this person. Like, let me put it this way. If I have a guy saved on my phone as hepatitis B, how sad would I be if he hepatitis B didn't text me back on time? So women get really obsessed like with the Instagram status because they'll be like, "Okay, this guy was active 9 minutes ago. I sent him a message 10 hours ago." So they start to feel like there's something wrong with them. But if you have your notifications and your status off, you don't know when he was online. He doesn't know when you were online. You're mysterious. Um, so it's it's like it's a it's a place where you don't feel the hurt if you don't get a text from him. So you're you're priming your body to be neutral instead of like emotionally connecting onto someone who you don't really know very well. And also I would say don't text all the time because that's creating more intimacy than is actually capable and real at the at the moment. Like the false intimacy that comes from texting for like weeks and weeks before meeting is ridiculous. I understand maybe in early dating not falling too fast for someone that you don't trust is perhaps not hepatitis B but it's a [laughter] >> it's not a bad solution >> generally but >> eventually do you advise women to completely remove their mask as well? >> Yes. >> So I would say to women until you are engaged you're single and you should you should maintain you know your body you shouldn't be out sleeping with people. don't date five people and sleep with them. That's not where we're at. Um and so that's kind of where I go to tell women. And then so another thing with the Orthodox church, it tells you that um marriage is when you become a martr for each other. And I think if there's no investment in you first, you don't need to be a martyr for anybody. Like >> But you were also concerned about somebody investing in you too much first. >> Well, yeah, cuz that's love bombing. But you just said that you'd like to love bomb people early on in a relationship. >> I know >> you do. >> I do. Yeah. But >> so it's okay for you to do it, but it's worrying if somebody It's a red flag if a guy does it for a girl. >> It's worrying both ways cuz there's plenty of female psychopaths. You just don't really hear about them. >> So you would be saying to if you were advising the guys that you were dating, if there was two of you. >> Yeah. >> And you saw you behaving the way that you do with guys, what do you think you would advise the guys? >> So basically an antidote to someone like me. >> What would you say? Hey, would you be that's a red flag? I'd be worried about this. >> I would tell them which red flags are there and I do have men that I coach because like I've Yeah. Another thing that I wanted to say about how I discovered how much men help like I went to a party with my husband and it was all his like youthful friends and I was they were talking about their girlfriends and whatnot and then they said that they would be devastated if they cheated on them and I thought men are naturally like they don't have that emotion and like they wouldn't care about cheating on someone and saying the guy saying he couldn't live with himself. I was like >> if he'd done it. >> Yeah. If he had done it. And it's like, okay, man, maybe they're not so bad. And then I went to Europe by myself and every single time it was a European man who would help me get my bag, who would get it off the um the conveyor belt. Um and they would get me like free meals and stuff. And I know the intention behind some of that, but some of it was genuinely just helping the gentleman or whatever. >> Yeah. like and even like Russian guys like Russian there was like a lot of these airports they have like the stairs going up and down for the tarmac and so I had to lug my suitcases up there and it was so annoying and this Russian guy he just grabbed my suitcase took it down went across the tarmac went up the stairs to the plane put it over my head and just walked away and I was like >> gentleman >> what's the story about you and your husband >> okay so we met when I was doing Miss Universe New Zealand and I went on a date with him, which was meant to be a double date with my friend and that guy bailed. So, it was just like him with two Miss Universe girls, and he got really, really nervous beforehand. But, we just hit it off so fast. So, we were talking about politics, like we had the same belief system. I didn't have to lie and say I was like a leftist for a leftist person. So, I was He was a genuine conservative. I'm a genuine conservative. He was like con he was consistent with his effort and he was such a cheapkate at that time. So if he he went out of his way to go buy new clothes to see me and I appreciate that. I appreciate putting in like putting in time and effort for somebody because that's also what I will do if I truly find interest in somebody. I will dress how they like. I will be, you know, make sure I'm in their corner always. But he was fantastic. Um, we had a couple of dates before I had to go back to Australia and then I flew him to Australia with my money and he never left. So, we kind of moved in together. He moved into my parents' house, which was pretty taboo at the time, but I mean, they weren't too angry because they they saw that he was genuine. And after 3 months, I didn't feel contempt. I felt happy, like I felt open, like I can actually talk about things. >> What was the difference? >> I think because he's so calm, like he's this anchor that I've never really had outside of my father. And he is one of the best men I've ever known. Like he doesn't even eat if I haven't eaten. And he is like he's known as floor guy because when I go to transfusions, he sleeps on the floor with me while I'm getting transfused. And like there's not a lot of people who would go to those lengths like like the way he sponsored my Europe trip like he was working so hard and he does so much for me. He does so much for our like fur babies and he has the values that I've always really appreciated. >> Is this the first time do you are you in love? Is that >> Yes. >> Right. Yes. >> Is this the first time you felt that? >> Uh I don't know. I was one before, but it wasn't the same. This is like this is something that can endure. I didn't think that one could endure the first one. >> Is it difficult being in a relationship? You mentioned uh if somebody says something gets on my nerves, annoys me, agitates me, if they're doing something wrong, if they make me feel a certain way, negative, too much push back, if I kind of don't get what I want. But in relationships, it's really important to have that push and pull because you don't always know what's right for you. And if it's somebody off the street or someone you have no loyalty with, that kind of doesn't matter. But if it's your partner, it's really important for them to push you into place to show you the blind spots. A lot of those blind spots are going to be uncomfortable. >> Yeah. >> Like if you do something and say, "Hey, you're you're being an asshole." And >> that's what he says. >> But why is is that not are you is there a tension inside of you now? You've got this this person You've got the loyalty thing, but you've also got this very fundamental physics inside of your system that you've had for far longer than him. >> Yes. >> Do those two things clash? >> They do clash a lot. Um, the thing is with him is that I see everything that he does for me and I also give him grace because around him I don't have to wear a mask. So I can't like of course he he causes agitation. once in France. I I was like, "You you like when he was sleeping, I was like, you snore like a [ __ ] chainsaw." And it was pissing me off. And then I was trying to learn French on Duolingo and he kept like being annoyed when the the bell went off when I got something correct. And so I got really angry at him. But um the way I sort of handled the relationship with him is that we keep things pretty fresh. We change things around a lot because I don't like monotony. So >> what does that look like? So we like traveled to different places. We were involved with like um with just like going through the Epstein files like we were on to that well before it was like being talked by the DOJ. And so we went there we were we met up with Jeffrey's brother Mark who was nothing like Jeffrey. He's a great guy, great amazing guy. Um, and so we get into like weird places. Like together we've been a force to be reckoned with. Alone I can be sort of a like an explosive that can go off at certain times or it could be like an ice block that melts over time. Um, but with him he kind of will rain me in and he can also do it in a way that I don't find disrespectful. >> And I've had my fights with him. I mean, there was one time at the pool I went to with my friend Marie who had a Asian background and this white lady was like, "Oh, you two can't swim properly." And I was like, I I've been swimming here every single day for like 2 years, so you need to shut the [ __ ] up. And so my husband, he didn't stand up for me there because he's not a confrontational person. And so I threatened to break up because I was like, I can't deal with someone who won't stand up for me because I'm a very confrontational person. if someone has a problem with me and they talk [ __ ] about me, I'll go directly to them. So, that was sort of a problem we had at the start and he was a little bit worried about like, you know, what psychopathy is and all of that. >> I imagine he might have had a few questions. >> Yes. Yes. He did. >> In other news, have you ever noticed how some websites make it ridiculously easy to buy while some feel infinitely harder? >> Back in my day, I had to walk 10 miles to the local store. >> Aren't you younger than me? Yeah, but my dad got a DUI. Anyway, the reality is most businesses just get the website wrong. And if your setup is messy, you lose a ton of sales, which is why I'm such a massive fan of Shopify. They power 10% of all e-commerce in the United States, including brands like Gym Shark, Skiims, Aloe, and Newtonic. Because when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best-in-class. Their checkout's 36% better on average compared to other platforms. And with Shop Pay can boost conversions by 50%. So upgrade your business and get the exact same checkout that we use at Newtonic with Shopify. You can sign up for a free trial period by going to the link in the description below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom. That's shopify.com/modernwisdism. In 2021, you said that you were scared of becoming an abuser. >> Yes. >> Today, your slogan on your website is stop being the victim, stop being the villain. See, I don't >> What happened to the woman who was frightened of becoming abusive? >> Well, I don't want to be abusive to people I know. I don't know what other [ __ ] people have have done. Like, if you're dealing with a guy who's like ruined your life, why shouldn't you be abusive in return? But I also must say that he runs my website. So, it's it's not >> it's his copy, not yours. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's not mine. >> Interesting. Yeah. I think, you know, looking at a lot of the dating advice that's in your book, some of the stuff that's on the website, it does feel quite manipulative. Is that fair to say? >> I think it is fair. Yeah. >> Right. Do you think that teaching women manipulative dating tactics could cause them to introduce toxic games into actually healthy relationships? >> I try to avoid that, especially with my coaching clients. I tell them where ruthlessness should begin and where it should end. And it should definitely end when you're in a secure relationship. You don't want to damage that in any way, shape, or form. So, I value people's relationships if they are good for them. But if some guy is like making you feel like [ __ ] saying that they he's got better options than you, and he's treating you like you you're nothing, like you're a speck of dust, >> then it's more than fair for me to tell them like if you want to get revenge or if you want to feel in power again, like if you want to be in power again, then you can use these methods. So you can have the benefits of psychopathy without all the negatives of psychopathy. What are some of the methods? >> Um, so the methods of >> getting revenge on somebody or or of regaining power, especially early in a relationship, I suppose. >> So, basically, I've had a lot of women who like they, I don't know, flap with a guy for a while, >> and they don't know how to make him commit and they don't want to um give him up. And so, they'll book coaching calls with me, not take my advice cuz they're they're weak. Women are weak. And so it pisses me off, but I still tell them like this is what you need to do in terms of um methods. Like if he thinks he's better than you, show him your other options. Like not directly because men aren't stupid. Men, you know when things are happening. So don't rub it in his face. Just let him know about it. Just let him know you've got options and you're going to put up with the [ __ ] Um I also tell them to have the [ __ ] tests, right? The [ __ ] tests are important because you need to see what he will do under different circumstances before you commit to him. >> Um, and I think men should be able to do that as well. I just don't like the advice that say Fresh and Fit give of like making a woman feel like she's garbage so that she's like lowered her self-esteem to be with you. So, that's not really what I tell people to do at all. That sounds like some of the some of the bits of advice that I've seen from you get perilously close to that. You know, the push and pull that you're supposed to love bomb him and then withdraw it. That you should uh find out what makes him anxious and vulnerable and then know how to push those buttons in order to make him need you a lot. That to me feels just like an inversion of some of the worst bits of dating advice that have come from the other side of the fence. >> Okay. So, I feel like women can't do as much damage as men most of the time. There are some exceptions to that, of course. And I also know that women are very moderate. So, they're going to pull back what I say and they're going to not do that because they just can't. Like, I I have proven time and time again that they can't. They want to live vicariously through me, but they cannot carry that out. But if they can carry it out to a point where they don't feel unstable, that's where you need to be. >> So I know their limitations. I know that if I put them here to a certain extent and they they obviously, you know, will not go to that level. They will not go to that line. They will be well before that line. It's kind of like when in your in drama school when they they're like bring out all your energy and then draw it back in. So there's are there going to be a couple of women who become genuinely abusive? Potentially. But I am not giving them any materials myself. Like if they choose to harm someone, that's not my fault. They can choose to take the advice in a book in general or they could not. >> If Andrew Tape published your book with the pronouns reversed, how do you think he'd describe it? pretty much his like it would be his ticket to fame except without sex trafficking. >> When it comes to dating advice though, a lot of what's being what's being put across. It seems like you really stand in opposition to men that manipulating women to uh men that are trying to use dopamine and psychology in an attempt to create a need that maybe isn't there create a power differential, create a degree of dependency. >> Yeah. >> You're saying that women men don't feel the impact of that in the same way that women do. Yes. And that women can't deploy the power of that in the same way that men can. >> Exactly. Maybe I would say women are interpersonally much more deaf than men are and much more effective. Um, women are better lying detectors. They're also better liars. They are better at uh venting and gossip. That's why the what movie mean girls was made about it wasn't mean boys, it was Mean Girls. Yeah, >> I understand what you mean that empathy may be a little bit higher in women on average, but >> something tells me that those aren't the sorts of women that are going to be seeking out your content. So, I wonder whether or not we're um putting a performance-enhancing drug on top of women who already maybe have this disposition, and you've identified yourself there's, wow, I I didn't know that men would feel guilt if they cheated on their partner. Wow, I didn't know that men would feel, you know, there might be another Wow, I didn't know that men actually might be able to feel pain of being ghosted or >> do they >> men feeling the pain of being ghosted? Absolutely. >> Of course, >> is a thing >> I would say. So yeah, I think if a guy is, look, there's certainly men who understand that applying an awful lot of romantic pressure early in a relationship can get a woman to fall for them, but what they're doing is trying to emulate the realness of that. >> Yes, >> there have to be men that are just doing the realness thing, right? Not everybody is trying to play the game, or else the signal wouldn't work. The thing is this men are far more likely to be Machavel Machavelian. Far more likely. It's like one in 20 for men. It's like one in 100 for women. >> Okay. So you're talking about 5%. >> Yeah. But those 95% around >> uh that's true. That's a that's a fair point. You know, you're right that the men that are the the socioexual few at the top now. It's interesting. It's actually the socioexual few men with the socioexual few women. Yes. doesn't tend to be the guys that are like the 8020 thing doesn't seem to really be that true anymore. I understand what you mean. I understand why why it's important for people to understand how manipulation works. I think what's dangerous is when you start to teach people to do it in reverse. That's where you what you do is you create the incentive to d to damage people who are trying to do things legitimacy legitimately. So, the the romance, the love bombing, the care, the attention, the affection, it might just be a guy who's like, "I found my [ __ ] woman. I found my woman, and I can't stop thinking about her. I'm going to do the flowers thing. I'm going to send her the messages." You know, the Disney princess romance movie thing, the exact romcom stuff that I think a lot of women want. And what I worry is that those women become skeptical of the motivations of guys doing things with all of the legitimacy that they wanted and everything is seen through. Well, that's love bombing. You know, if he's texting you three times in an hour, that's that's that's too much. Or if you get flowers after the first because it's if you don't ring a girl, that would be bad. But if you got flowers the next day, that would be too much. It's like, well, I don't know. Maybe he's just like, "Oh my god, that was the greatest night of my life. I found my wife. He's telling all of his friends." Or maybe he's a [ __ ] boy. That you're just on the roster. You're in the WhatsApp broadcast list and working out the difference between those two. I I worry that there might be some women who basically lose the person who was doing the thing they really wanted because they're seeing it as a tactic as opposed to an emotion. Does that make sense? >> That's the purpose of [ __ ] tests. So, you ask them to go slightly inconveniently out of their way to help you in some way. So, I'm not saying you have to help move her house or something. If she's moving house, you have to go handle all that. But it's like, do you mind picking this up on your way here? Do you mind meeting me here? Even though it's a little bit further from you. Do you mind? It's it's the utility stuff because a man who loves you or cares about you or wants to genuinely be with this woman and he's like, "Oh my god, I love her so much. This is fantastic. I met my woman." They're not going to have a problem with that. They're not. >> So, you're looking for effort. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. There's a >> words mean nothing. >> There's a line from Matthew Hussy which is invest in people based on how much they invest in you. >> Exactly. >> And that is for him especially softly softly Matthew Hussy like quasi sociopathic right because it's to do with the transactions to do with the as long as you show up for me. I look I I don't disagree with >> also realistically how many men are going to actually take you to Paris later that night? They promise you in the morning at coffee, how many are they g are they gonna actually take you to Paris that evening? >> I guess it depends how good the sex is. [laughter] >> Tell me tell me in the past how you've dealt with breakups. >> Okay. Um, so I broke up with I tend to accidentally break up with guys on their birthdays. Um, so one guy I broke up with him and he was like he drove to my house and he was sitting outside and he was crying and he was texting me constantly, "Please come out. Please come out. Please come out." >> On his birthday. >> I didn't know cuz I didn't ask. So, um, I was like, "I'm not coming out. I'm not interested. I'm done. Please leave. And if you don't leave, like I'm not going to come out regardless. It's late at night." So, I just I was watching him cry in the car. How did you feel when you were watching him cry? >> I think I laughed a little bit and then eventually got really pathetic, so I just closed the blinds. Um, other people I I tend to be as gentle as I can or I tend to just move very slowly away. So, I'll start to draw back like there'll be less communication, there'll be less less effort from me, there'll be less prioritization. Like >> not a clean cut. You don't just say >> sometimes I do. Sometimes I'm just like okay we have we're incompatible in this and this and this and these are things that we cannot overcome. So we just need to handle it. >> And so I've dealt with all kinds of like breakups with people. So I think the most effective is generally fading away. >> The most effective way to break up with somebody is >> Yeah. Because the ones that I tell them that we can't work out, they're always like, "Oh, no. I can do this and I can do that and I can do this and we can make it work." It's like, "I don't want you to." And they don't take that as a final answer. >> Even I don't want you to isn't taken as a final answer. >> Yeah. That's happened to me plenty of times. Rather than giving justifications, have in the past did you try saying I don't want to be in this relationship anymore and not give a justification? >> Well, once I called a guy they told him he was getting fat. >> That's still a justification. I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. >> No, I would not do that. >> So why? >> I don't know. I've just not been a person like that. I wonder I wonder whether there's something about that utilitarian thing coming through again where there needs to be a a ledger of some kind. I have to have a justification for this. But that's actually needing to have a justification for it is actually quite a human thing. >> Yeah. So it's like letting them know that something exists, >> not necessarily them actually doing it. Mhm. >> So if like so I'll set up an arbitrary boundary of like don't text me before this time and then they start doing it regularly and I'm like okay like I've given you this and like my actual motivation would be completely different to how I presented. >> You just don't want to be in the relationship but you made this rule interesting. >> Let's say that you had neurotypical children. >> Yes. >> Would you encourage them to date a sociopath? >> Yes. >> Why? Because if you earn like a real a real sociopath, real psychopath, if they are genuinely on your team, you have someone who is willing to harm people for you. They are ride or die for you. They're in your corner. They're choosing to love you every single day. They're not a slave to their emotions and the brain chemicals. They are making an effort to be there for you. And Dr. K, he's from Healthy Gamer GG. Um he even spoke on this. He said, "People who are capable of these heinous things have chosen to be on your side and they will carry out the instrumental damage to other people for you and they will be your shield." >> So I think there's absolutely like first you vet the crap out of them. Vet them, vet them, vet them. Even sociopath, psychopath, the mask slips regardless. If you if I hung out with you for a week, it would slip fully. You would see it. No matter how hard I try, it will slip. >> How long? Because you know, you can hold together a two-hour podcast relatively well. What when does it begin to get difficult? A couple of days in, a week in, a couple of weeks. >> Probably a week. A week you'll start seeing. >> And what what does that look like? What does start seeing? >> You'd start seeing like less enthusiastic responses. You'd see like less courteousness. Although um >> more callous. >> More callous. Definitely more callous. M >> like it's less me trying to appease or you know trying to cater to somebody. It would be, you know, the true self coming out. >> Do you think some men get turned on at the idea of being manipulated? >> Yeah, they do. They come into my DMs regularly. They're like asking me if I can manipulate them. They'll give me money for it. >> And was pay pig stuff, but manipulate pig stuff. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pay pigs. And then there's like submissive men especially that will come up to me and they'll be like, "Oh, I find you so attractive or I love that you could like make me do anything and you say the most vile things and still are so hot." And so I get that a lot and I find it really repulsive because I don't anything that's linked I guess to sexual gratification is something I find really dirty. >> So casually. >> Yeah. Casually. And that's exactly what they're wanting. I mean, they're getting off on it. I'm like, it this does nothing for me. >> Interesting that I had a friend in university who was doing financial financial dominate dominate tricking. >> And this guy would send her I didn't realize how it worked. It's [ __ ] gnarly. This guy would send her his pay packet at the start of every week or at the start of every month and she would drip feed him 50p one pound 1 pound50 daily and he would have to beg and she would have this all of these videos and stuff and it was a consensual unconsensual relationship like cuz the whole premise was I need you to send me more. No, I won't. But then at the start of each month, she would get his entire pay packet. And there was a time when the car was out of gas and he was married with kids. The car was out of gas. >> My goodness. >> And he needed to drive to work and she just sent him 50p and said, "Get the bus instead." He said, "That can't even get me there." And she said, "Well, just walk." And you go, okay, at what point does this weird kind of self mistreatment kind of like financial self harm >> that you're legitimating somebody else doing on your behalf? >> Yeah. >> Ethically, I still have no idea that was >> it's like self >> 15 [ __ ] years ago and I still don't know how I feel about it. Um, but it's strange that some people can get off sexually with that. And what your distaste is around is the fact that they're feeling sexual even if you don't feel it. >> Yeah. I don't like >> That's very interesting. >> I don't like them. The feeling of them thinking they can, I guess, sexually have power, steal pleasure in a way. >> Yeah. Exactly. I think it's interesting that you're you're sort of stopping you you've got this disconcerting sensation around men wanting to be manipulated by you. I I feel like part of the status issue as well is it's such a lowering of them >> in comparison to you that seems like pity uh is a little bit of an element in here as well. Is that fair? So, I I've had a lot of guys come up to me on Tinder or whatever and say, "You're too good for me." And there's something really disgusting in that for me. It's like either he's trying to get me to like compliment him to the point where he's at the status where he believes me to be or he wants me to abandon my own self. And you know, >> it's a game or it's low selfworth. >> Exactly. Exactly. And so when they say that, I used like when they said it before, I used to be like, "Okay, uh, let me just respond with something nice." And then I realized most of them are really terrible people. And if you're automatically disqualifying yourself, then like I have no reason to show any interest in you and I don't find it attractive that you don't have any selfresect. >> Mhm. >> It's just it's something that's icky. I don't like weakness and I don't like um pathetic sort of situations like that. >> What are some of the things that you don't understand about yourself? >> Why I have so many hypocritical positions on things? Um why I've cultivated an audience that isn't anything like me. Like I'm a conservative. I want a conservative base. I want to be able to talk about politics. I want to be able to talk about things that I care about and my audience is just capturing me in this place where I have to pretend to care about their ridiculous and quite often degrading and degenerate behavior. Like I've cultivated this and it pisses me off. And then anything with psychopathy, it brings more women, more crazy women in my inbox. And it's like it's great if they're buying my book, okay? It's great if they're book booking coaching sessions, but I hate them. >> So, it's like this there's this like duality of it >> and it's like you either provide me use or you don't. And that's kind of a position I have. I also don't know why I support women in general when women have caused me the most harm out of everyone. Uh I also feel like how I expect empathy and stuff from other people even though I can't reciprocate. Um the weirdest thing about me is like I would say >> oh the weirdest go on. >> Yeah. The weirdest thing about me is that um I get really confused when people don't like me. Like I will like I'm saying people I don't even know and they're in relationships with other people who are not me. Like it makes no sense. It's like I I know logically they don't know I exist, right? But it's like how can someone be in a relationship with someone who is not me? >> Is that the grandiosity? >> I think it is. I think that's narcissism. >> Narcissism. [snorts] >> But yeah, like a really solid example of what a psychopath or alleged psychopath is is Candace Owens. So over time she drip feeds her audience like little bits of oh here's more information about Charlie's death even though it's got nothing to do with Charlie and she's just trying to get views. That's that's a psychopath's play in in >> how uh how can someone detect if another person's a sociopath or a psychopath? >> First the eyes then you could do a simple test like the yawn test smile test. We don't yawn when you yawn. We don't smile. Laughing isn't contagious for us. It will generally mirror what you your positions are. Tilted head means more like they like we're looking like we're actually trying to understand everything you're saying. Remembering your name, all of those things that are very very specific. Uh compliments on obscure things like I I like people's noses and so like I think you have a nice nose and I think there's like Roblo is my ideal cuz cuz he's got like the perfect most tiny little nose. So things like that like there's the peculiarities of psychopaths. Um, and another thing that you would notice is so we have weird justifications in our head for things and so you know BTK Dennis Raider >> no he he wouldn't he was a serial killer uh buying torture kill yeah he wouldn't rape the women because that he killed because he said that would be cheating on his wife >> and uh what's it Ed Ed Kemper was like yeah I killed her but I never hit her so it's Like there's this weird little things that you'll notice that are off >> and there are you'll tell that there's if if you can study people's faces there'll be little microaggressions like usually when you lie and get away with it there's like a little bit of a smile coming up like and like I don't know what the direct term for it is but that's really really something you'll see and also with actions you'll see psychopaths will help you only when it's useful for them generally but if they are helping you in times that you are offering nothing in return, then you've made it into sort of a successful relationship with a psychopath. >> Who do you think some of the most famous sociopaths in the world out there at the moment are? >> Candace Owens, um, Justin Trudeau, uh, Gavin Newsome, JD Vance, uh, who else? >> JD, but not Trump. >> Not Trump. Trump's an arc. He's a narcissist. Okay. >> Yeah. Uh, who else is there? So many people Kevin Spy. Please don't kill me, Kevin Spy. [gasps] They all seem to go >> I think you're the wrong gender for Kevin. >> True, true. Uh, who else? Um, Angelina Jolie. >> You think Angelina is a >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Sociopath. I think the front of being an ambassador for charities and not speaking out for the Jews and not actually acknowledging that women were raped and tortured on the 7th of October in 2023. >> That's really hypocritical. She loves stealing other people's man. Like she she literally breaks up relationships on like a regular basis. She seems to use people a lot for what they have and nothing that she does seems like it is genuine affection. But also also Mark Zuckerberg, he's like a lizard. You can see he doesn't blink. >> That's something you should probably >> That So the the Mark Zuckerberg thing, that was before he had his stoal revamp. >> Yes. >> As soon as he started wearing chains, all of that stuff went away. >> Yeah. >> I look, I've spent time I've spent time with Mark and I was like, "Okay, I'm going to [ __ ] lock in. I'm going to lock in on this guy and I'm going to check like is there a second set of eyelids or whatever." I'm not here to [ __ ] shelf a matter or at all, but like he is outstandingly normal. Like outstandingly normal. Uh I watched him and Jocker Willink roll BJJ together. I don't know. I I looked I looked real close and I'm like >> You really didn't notice anything. >> No, I'm pretty good at reading people. And >> really? >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty good at reading people and I really I didn't see anything at all. A nice guy around his family, nice guy around his kids, >> but you don't know him behind closed doors. >> It's true. But, you know, it was like two or three days watching him interact with staff, watching him interact with Definitely, you know, a real sort of highinking, airy, distracted sort of kind of guy. But like, who the [ __ ] is managed to build businesses like that and doesn't have that skill? I don't know. Hey, I'm not the I'm not the sociopath whisperer here. Um, Ariana Grande is a prolific home wrecker. >> Oh, yes. I was going to say Ariana as well. >> But do you think can someone be a home wrecker without being a sociopath? >> Yeah, they can. But the way that she does it is in the most malicious way possible. Like that's her goal is to break up the relationship. It's not that she's just madly in love with this man. >> Why would that be why would that be something useful or interesting? The the >> breaking up. There's joy in watching the pain. Like that's I guess a side of sadism that >> But you haven't talked about that. We haven't talked about the sadism thing. You've talked about wanting to get revenge on people that some girl says something that's mean and then you do something. The sadism side seems to have fallen away a little bit. >> Well, I haven't really gone into detail. >> Well, let's go into detail. Tell me about the sadism part of it. >> So, I purpos there's a lot of people that I purposely like I tell them that I like them and whatnot. I like show them vulnerability so that they'll show me theirs and then I actually enjoy watching them suffer. I'll give them incorrect advice so that I know that they are not not my clients but literally I will lead them astray. I know exactly how to turn them. I know exactly how their mind works. I can make them or I can break them. And seeing someone begging you to see them and like being a fully grown man crying, there's a satisfaction in that. There's a lot of satisfaction. >> What's the sensation? >> It's thrill. It's like a thrill. It's like adrenaline. It's like, "Oh my god, look at what he's willing to do for me." >> Like power. >> The power. Yeah. Someone submitting, I guess. And that's something I I like outside of, I guess, sexual relationships or romantic relationships, I don't really like submissive men. I think they're disgusting. But I'm saying in terms of like seeing emotional pain, that is something that I enjoy. Like I write the most like I think funny insults and I'm like I'm like you have less integrity than Reinhardt Hydrick so let's not get into that. Um but there's a certain sort of suffering like where you leave a emotional gap for them that they desperately need closure from you >> and so they'll like run like run in circles trying to please you trying to get that out of you. And I will never give that person closure because I know then I'll have control over them for the rest of their lives. People try to get over it, but I've had people from 9 years ago tell me they're having dreams about me. And so I feel like to a level it's working. And there's also with the physical the physical sadism was more something in childhood like I would enjoy watching them get injured. I would enjoy watching them like bleed I guess. I would enjoy pushing her off the stool because every single day she had a new bruise. Um, I used to, but now I think because I guess there's an element of being charged as as an adult for crimes like that or like for fraud or if I start stealing credit cards again or if I see people like for example when I stole a credit card from a girl's wallet at university, I went and I was comforting her where she was like, "Someone went on a shopping spree with my card." And I was like, "That is so awful. People are despicable. people are really bad. I was like hugging her. Meanwhile, I was spending all her money. So, there was that kind of delight in like watching her do that. And then, you know, the girl that I ruined, the pageant one, there was so much like joy in seeing her like go into a level of depression that seemed unbearable because her depression is not like my depression as I don't think it is. Um, so seeing that struggle can >> That one felt righteous though. >> It's righteous though. I feel like >> it feels like those are Did the girl with the credit card do anything? >> No, she canceled the card. And >> I mean, did she do anything to justify the stealing of the card? No, I just wanted to >> I can So I can see this is where for me the real discomfort comes in, which is if you do something to someone and you get an outsized piece of revenge, horrible, very painful, but at least in the equation of normal human psychology, you can understand it. It's when it's senseless. There's no >> justifiable reason. There's no understandable explanation for why this thing happened. That to me is where I go, "Holy fuck." Like, because >> I think the reason it feels that way is there's no control. Yeah. That >> if you decide to poke the bear too many one too many times and it it hits you, okay, at least if I don't poke a bear, I'm not going to get hit. Whereas, if I'm just some girl who didn't do anything, didn't try to say something mean to you at Miss Universe, and then the country of Venezuela comes after me, but I was just some girl that had a handbag and there was a card there, and now it's gone. And then I'm being manipulated into thinking that I've got a friend, and the friend's actually spending all my money, and that feels a bit different. >> Yes. Yes. And that's why I don't do that anymore. But maybe there's something in the subconscious level that I didn't know what, like, I had a reason for it, but nothing comes to mind. jealous of her could have been anything really. >> Do you ever wish that you could feel normal emotions and care for people like a typical human? >> I feel like I already do that for people who are worthy of it. Like I don't do it for like what am I going to get out of being kind to someone who's not going to like support me, who's not going to be in my corner when I need them. It's very um it's just timeconuming to care for many many people and sometimes do I wish I could be not be behind a glass wall. Sure it's lonely. Sometimes it is >> and people don't realize that. People don't realize how like hard it is to actually deal with this this disorder and people try to fake it and they want it and it's like it's actual hell. Like you never actually feel like a a full you know functioning person. I feel like I didn't really grow up either. Like I I talk to friends that I've, you know, I haven't talen to them in years and they all have like children and they're doing all of this and I'm still in the same mindset and it's like it's really frustrating even though I've achieved quite a lot since then. Like I like, you know, I was on my Dream uh show the other day on Sean Hannity because I used to watch him with my dad when I was little. And so that was like amazing. And I do all of that stuff and I've, you know, been at the trials of Gen Maxwell. Like I've I've done all of this stuff. I was literally in her bathtub to get a photo um [panting and gasps] >> consensually. I Well, she wasn't there. She was in prison. So, her house was up for sale, so it was like the perfect time to go in and get evidence. >> You treated it like a museum. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. I was just trying to see like the logistics of that bathtub and how many people it could fit because Virginia Grey and was saying that Prince Andrew had raped her in that bathtub. And so I was just trying to see if that like, you know, panned out. >> What did you discover? >> I could barely fit. I'm 5 foot as far as I know. Prince Prince Andrew was six foot and Virginia was 5'8. So if I struggled in there, I' >> That feels like a flimsy bathtub for somebody that's got a lot of money. >> Her house. >> Did you judge her? >> Yeah. Her house is trash. >> But it's in Kensington, so it's like >> expensive post. >> Yeah, exactly. >> So I understand about I think I've got normal emotions. I think I do have emotions for the people that I care about. Do you know the difference between uh local maxima and global maxima? >> Yes. >> Cool. So, you can only optimize the things that you know. >> Exactly. >> Stuff that you don't know, you can't optimize for. And sometimes you're stuck inside of a local maxima. There might be a higher high or more returns that you can get by trying a different approach, but if you don't know the approach, you're constrained by what you know. Yes. I'm wondering I'm trying to give you a very utilitarian justification for perhaps broadening that. Um >> I like that >> that it does make sense to do things for people even if you were looking at it totally sterilely apart from the fact it's good and pro-ocial and rah. [snorts] It makes sense to do things for people that you can't see a direct return from, especially if they're different on new things because you don't know what you don't know and you don't fully understand how that repercussion could come back around. Many times you talked about somebody from 9 years ago that you've forgotten about is still being affected by you. You might not have known 9 years ago that that would be the case. So you had a local maxima there and there's a global maxima that's higher by doing something you didn't know about. The same thing can happen in the positive way too. you go, "H, I'm just going to, you know, I'm just going to do this thing for a friend." And maybe they pay me back, maybe they don't. And then something happens. The return that comes back around from this, even if you couldn't have done the calculus, ends up being unbelievably positive for you in your life. So I wonder whether you're going to slowly accumulate more of these algorithms where you go, huh, that's an because what >> what you're doing basically is a very slow walk of pro-social human evolution just inside of one person like you're having to learn it step by step by step as opposed to being bootloaded with the source code that most of us have got. >> Absolutely. And I'm what I'm interested in is first off if you make it to the end of life without getting into some like real real trouble, but secondly how far along that you get. It's like how many hum normal human behaviors are you going to learn psychologically through deliberate practice? And because you said before you had uh physical um and like criminal tendencies more so they became a little bit more domesticated. Okay, now I've got friends. Okay, now I've got a partner. Okay, now I've got now I've got now >> now I've got responsibilities. >> Exactly. And you go, okay, how far along are you going to get through life? I think that's kind of >> that's actually a great question. So I think that like the Christianity really helped and Charlie Kirk really helped get me there. It was the fact that, you know, he he would say like do one good thing every day for somebody. And the thing is I am I love showering people with gifts and I love like taking care of them even if I know that I they could pay me back maybe >> but there's just like I just like that. So sometimes like with the love bombing sometimes it's like I'm genuinely excited because I'm so flat that things will sort of I need things to happen to actually feel anything. But in terms of actually developing pro-social behaviors and learning from other people, I feel like I'm doing that. I feel like I'm doing that on a regular basis. I feel like the uh the traditions and the authority of the Orthodox Church is helping me like being cuz I actually love hierarchies. I love hierarchies. I love >> presumably if you're quite high up them. Um, but the thing is it's like there's this discipline that it teaches you that I don't have and I want to learn it. So, you have to stand for two hours. Yeah. Yeah. You have to stand for 2 hours for the service. There's no you don't sit down. There's no pews. >> Um, you have to fast Wednesdays and Fridays. That's a that's a way to reduce gluttony. Um, and that that the church is a hospital. So if you're sick or if you committed sins like what I have, they don't treat you like a criminal. They treat you like a person who needs help at a hospital. >> Um and the priest, they don't judge you. Like they >> So it seems it seems to me that the forgiveness element >> is a big part of that. But how is it that you're learning the value of forgiveness for you but not applying that to other people? If this is now the new thing, which is one of the biggest life changes that you've gone through, >> I would assume. Okay. >> I'm trying >> receive gift. >> I am trying to be more like forgiving to people like to pray. >> How's that going? >> It's hard >> cuz my priest says if you can't pray for them, just pray for yourself and like you harbor less hatred for them until you are at a point where you can pray for them. And I just feel really connected to them because like I love the advice that they give. I love that it's like a spiritual father. So I'm like my natural father. I've got a spiritual father who I can run decisions by if they're like, you know, something that would be harmful to other people. Like I like having that as a sort of restriction. And I like the stability of the church. It hasn't changed in 2,000 years. So there's like there's this sense of traditional circumstances, traditional like values that I had in my home. Um I I don't think that that necessarily I can do everything a normal human can do. Like we love in our own way. We have care for people in our own way. It's just a lot of people don't make the cut, >> unfortunately. And I'm trying to get to that stage where I'm able to do far more good than bad. And I feel like I'm well on my way to that. >> I've heard that you're some special type of soprano as well. >> A color. >> Can I hear what that sounds like? >> I can't do that. >> No. Nobody can. >> Kanak Kabatra, ladies and gentlemen, uh what's coming up next for you? Like what do you want out of the next couple of >> I want to write another book. >> Mhm. >> I want to be a commentator politically for the conservative movement because it's got a big rift in it at the moment. And I would like to ideally be on the way to having a family and be baptized into the Orthodox church. I'll be watching with interest. I appreciate you very much. Where should people go to check out everything you do? >> Everything's on my Instagram. My website is kenikarose.com. It has my book on it. It has the consilium where I teach you how to avoid manipulation and how to like get your freedom back from the cage that is your brain. >> Thank you. >> Congratulations. 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