FBI’s Most Wanted Con Artist: How To Get Insanely Rich | Matthew Cox

I was on the most wanted list for the FBI the Secret Service and the US Marshals and I've just stolen $1.5 million while on federal probation like it's not going to end well for me I've had 27 driver's licenses issued to me in seven different states she goes I open up a popsicle box that had3 or $40,000 in it in cash and I was like oh yeah okay there's some problems I do call the FBI agent she's saying look you come you cooperate you'll get like 7 years the moment the FBI came looking they all buried me for those unfamiliar with you you were sentenced to 26 years for bank fraud mortgage fraud identity theft passport fraud I thought this was very interesting you were called the Bonnie and Clyde of mortgage fraud what's also very interesting FBI's Most Wanted and on the run for years yeah that's that's not true no no what is true that's Danny Danny Jones by the way really yeah so and it's it's been everywhere everybody uses it now yeah how'd he come up with that then well because I was number one on the secret Services most wanted list and so when he did the title to the first video I did he put number one on the FBI or something like that or FBI's number one you know whatever uh wanted or something and I called him up and I said hey bro that title's not wrong and he goes nah it's okay it's clickbait nobody he's a his title doesn't mean anything just get people to click and I go yeah but it was a secret service yes nobody knows that the Secret Service even has the most wanted list and he's like I got this I was like okay I just don't want you to think that I don't want people to think that I said that like was I was I on the FBI's most wanted list yes there's probably a thousand people on that list you know was the FBI looking for me yes but I was number one on the secret Services most wanted list so unfortunately for some reason i' bragging rights or something you know to be number one but nobody even knows that they exist I tend to agree with them from an audience standpoint sometimes you have to go with the term that's a little more welln for SEO purposes definitely worked for him and then everybody's jumped on it and then after like the third uh video I got tired of correcting people but you were FBI's Most Wanted on secret part okay so the I was on the most wanted list for the FBI the Secret Service and the US Marshals but I'm saying I wasn't number one like Danny's I think says like he was the number one like that's Osama Bin Laden you know like I'm not you're not AMA beenin l no so he could have taken his identity though yeah yeah okay so so you committed essentially fraud a lot of it what exactly is fraud for those that don't understand I mean really fraud is anytime you lie you lie to obtain something falsely right for the most part it's like you go in you apply for a loan or a credit card and you lie about it you lie about something on your application either it's your name your social security number typically what people do is they just lie about like their income you know oh I made they'll say they made 200,000 when really they made 120 cuz they want to be able to get this $40,000 credit card or they want to get this $100,000 car they don't you know they don't actually qualify for so typically that's it but I mean fraud could be anything you're lying to obtain something how is it how is it different from a scam if someone says that's a scam I sounds like a fraud is almost the same thing yeah scam fraud scheme although scheme's not really it it seems like it's a bad word it's not you can have an investment scheme and it's perfect legal and when did you first commit fraud the first loan I did so I became a mortgage broker you know I genuinely was broke like Ford Motor Credit is looking for my car you know I'm almost a month behind on my mortgage and I had just become a mortgage broker what year was this I want to say this was 99 M so had two or three customers as a mortgage broker you know you you you get morgage you get borrowers right they're looking for houses so woman had come in she wanted to uh borrow money to buy a house so I said okay I took an application on her I got her W2s her pay subs I got her verification of rent verification of uh deposit for her down payment everything put it together in a file gave it to my my manager cuz she reviewed everything before we sent it off to underwriting so that the the lender would review it and she looked through the whole thing and she took one page out and closed it and I was like what's going on and she goes the verification of rent on your customer she's been 30 days late in the last two years which that's a that's a deal killer so no Bank wants to lend somebody who's been 30 days late on their rent because you're probably going to be 30 days late on your mortgage if not more my manager actually pulled out a white out the old white outs where they go it was like a bottle of white out you know it wasn't like the stick and she said if I was you I would white out the 30-day late make a copy of it stick it in the file send it to underw writing they'll never catch it this is my manager so it sounds like she had been doing this for a while she had and I can certainly say she had because she ended up you know getting indict she and her husband got indicted and what about all of the other mortgage brokers at that uh office at that firm I think to a degree they may have been doing a little here you know there are some people who will you know they'll oh I massaged it a little bit like and and usually you know Brokers will tell you like a let's say a verification of employment you know they might say well this person worked for a year and a half went and worked for somebody else for three weeks quit there and then went to work for somebody the same company they're working for right now so it's like doesn't look good that they've got three jobs in two years so they'll remove the one job and just change the numbers so that there was they jump from the year and a half job to the last six- Monon job and they miss that one job does that make sense yeah and that's fraud as well it's fraud because you're lying because you have to give all the information to the underwriter to determine whether they're going to lend the money or not do you think she would have been disappointed in you your your Superior if you didn't wi that out no I don't think she cared to be honest she was it was just a suggestion would she get a little bit more maybe like a performance bonus if her office issued a certain amount of loans and like your loan kind of helps boost those numbers yeah but honestly this loan was like nothing it was like a 50 $60,000 loan so she was just trying to let's just scoot this forward this is no big deal let's just planting a seed yeah and honestly she was really um this is actually she actually wore a wire on me that's but the first time I got in trouble was because of her her name is Gretchen to exclude that completely you know she was just really very much kind of a jerk she was a jerky very pushy well very pushy person so you know when she did it wasn't like listen Matt she was like this is what I do she I wi it out and put it in there boom it'll be fine and and I was like oh that's fraud that's fraud I could get I could go to jail and she goes nobody's going to jail she's the worst that will happen is they'll deny it you can blame it on your customer she goes and the worst that would happen if they thought you were involved is they'd fire you she goes nobody's calling the FBI and I was like oh I don't know she's like do what you want nobody's looking for my car and I was like okay and I did it and I was terrified but it went through and what was that feeling like when it went through was it exhilarating oh my God it was so good it was it was such a thrill how many times have you had a customer that you didn't know if the loan was going to close and you know you know that feeling at closing everything's falling apart there's it's AA it's chaotic and then they sign and you walk out with that check and it's a done deal you're like oh my God like I P off closing escro I always feel like something's going to happen in between it's always something I yeah I agree yeah and from that moment did you think okay this is something that I could repeat doing or do you think okay this is just like a oneof sure when I wi it out I'm thinking that but before that loan even closed like the next guy that had come in he had a W2 he made like 55,000 but if he made 59,000 he could get the loan so what do you do I changed the 59,000 to 62,000 or whatever I changed it to I don't remember you tell the customer this or you just do it in the back end no if I in that case I didn't and the reason I didn't most of time if it was something like that I changed your W2 I don't want you to know I want you to deny it CU what if you get a call from the lender somehow and you go oh my gosh the broker did it I told him not to do it or you I don't know I want you to just say what huh that's that's crazy that I don't know what that is I didn't do that then I if the lender calls me and says listen we got a W2 here that says $662,000 and your customer says that they didn't give it to you I'm like are you serious are you telling me that my customer changed the w too my God he looked me right in the face I can't believe that guy well I'm not going to close that loan like what am I GNA do I'm not gonna say you got me of course not he gave it to I have no incentive to to commit fraud for this guy I'm making 3500 bucks so what are they going to do they don't know they're probably not going to fire me now he didn't say I did it he just doesn't know what happened in that case yes now if if it was another let's say let's say you came in and I always use this as an example I had somebody come in one time he and his wife gave me W2s but literally they were copies and if you looked at it like you could see the staple Mark was in the exact same um spot on both copies of the W2 like even the smudge was the same soon as I picked him up it was like hold it up to the light and you go you do this in front of them um oh yeah yeah yeah and I'm like huh like nothing's changed except for their names and Social Security numbers and they are wavy like you could tell they've been copied they clued them on they're crooked and I'm like huh look I I like where your head's at obviously what do you own this business what no uh uh no I work for it like no I understand you've been to a couple places you've been turned down but obviously you own this business and they're like um I'm like look let me explain I show them what I've seen what like how I can it's obvious it's the same W2 and it's fraud I'm like look I'm going to get you the loan but you got to be honest to me with me I'll fix these like they made the exact same thing same withdrawals same Social Security withholding everything I'm like look I'll fix it but if somebody's somebody's going to call the employer and it was like AAA towing or something I said so what's going on and the guy was like yeah I I own it I go yeah if somebody calls are they going to who's answering oh no no my mom's going to answer I said okay I pick up the phone call phone rings hello I go hi is this a AAA to oh triple Triple A Towing I'm like and he's like oh man I'm like okay I'll call back back and I hang up and he I'll talk to her I'll talk to her okay so the next day I call back hello hi is Jim there oh triaa Towing I'm sorry it's triaa Towing I called by the third time I said you know what I'm just gonna I'm just gonna go get a like um I'm just going to go get a cell phone and set it up myself you know I still want to close a loan the guy who's doing like a $200,000 loan I'm going to make like six grand you know on a on a broker fee like let's say 4,000 then I'm going to charge like um two points on the back in so I make $6 or $9,000 like I want your loan to close I just don't want to get caught in underwriting so you know in that case I have to tell him right he knows he knew it was a fraud coming in so in that case I would tell him but he's in on it there's no incentive for him to say I I did anything so you went out and you bought this fake phone essentially and then set up a voicemail or something so if the lender ever wants to check on this person's work then there's no issue there although you know what before we go into that we got to do some quick matth here because the less money your business spends the more money you get to keep but the thing is with higher costs and borrowing distribution labor and materials everything is costing more that is why smart businesses are beginning to move over to our sponsor netsuite by Oracle netw is the number one Cloud Financial system bringing accounting financial management inventory and HR into one platform and one source of Truth with netw Suite you could drastically 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yeah bro it's way worse than that there used to be something called the business directory that lenders would check with the business directory this is 20 years ago this is back when you know they had yellow pages and you don't even know what the Yellow Pages is um do you know what the Yellow Pages is that's like phone book right there you go all right nice 25 you know got some years on I've heard about it um yeah so you could go on the internet and you could put your business phone number in the Yellow Pages and you had to fill out like a form and everything and then they would check into it so if you had the tax ID number correct and that your business phone number was listed with them and that tax ID number could be verified they would put you in the business business directory so now if the lender looks you up it says this is a legitimate business and then if they check with the W2 so let's say they go to the um they go to sunbiz.gov and they check your business the tax ID number is the same too that's on the W2 that would verify that that's is a real business then they would call the verify and if they called the number I pick up the number like they they're not even questioning it they know it's a legitimate business it's in the business directory the tax ID number is the same the address show up that's on the W2 is is all legit so I answer the phone you know hey Tria Tony how can I help you hi is Jimmy want to talk to somebody about Jimmy he works here uh yeah he he works here who's this you know and you just have a conversation with him yeah I'm his manager oh do you have an HR department no bro we have like less than 15 people here it's just basically me and my wife own the place you know have a conversation with he's so good at this though cuz Jack and I were talking like your level of confidence is through the roof I think if you put me in that situation I would freeze I'd panic I would just get like antsy and feel like oh they're on to me and you be shocked you'd be shocked how listen most of the time if I didn't if if I got uncomfortable I just stopped talking because I think that when you get nervous when I get nervous I tend to talk right iend but in those cases I would think you know as a salesperson I would think you know you make your pitch and you shut up I had a broker one time that literally would came to me one time he's like hey man can you pitch these SE guys are asking questions this that I was like yeah sure well not Pitch them but disclose to them you know all the disclosures you know the uh Insurance you know disclosures and you have all these anti-coercion disclosures so I went in and I disclosed to him like oh this is your anti-coercion we didn't force you to get insurance to this company this is your insurance saying that you have insurance on your home this is you know I go through and Flip Flip Flip I go through the whole thing and they're like and you know this is your truth and lending this is how much you're going to make this is how much the uh the adjustable rate is that blah you go through the whole thing and then the guy's like okay and he starts signing I I just disclosed he's signing we're good that's it I'm not talking again I'm just like right here right here right here that's all I say the broker goes yeah yeah yeah and I wouldn't don't even worry about the adjustable rate like it it'll be uh we're going to refinance it in two years I was like the who the [ __ ] said who said adjustable rate why would you say adjustable rate and the guy's like well how much is the adjustable what is it adjust to what does that mean he just signed he's signing what are you doing like you can only lose the sale we've got the s he's signing he's going to close in a week so I just know that you go in if you're opening if I was opening let's say a a bank account in somebody's name like I would go make a fake ID and go open up a bank account in the name of Brandon green i' go in give them the ID walk in sit down they would pull up Brandon green I've got a social security number for everything not a stolen identity it's a it's a synthetic identity so let's say they pull them up and they would go and I've had this happen where they went huh you know you don't want to hear huh and I just sat there I mean everything in me is like run get out of the bank run to your car get out of the you know but I didn't I just sat there and they're like huh I didn't say you know what's going on what's wrong what I was like I was like everything okay and she was like yeah it's weird it says fraud alert it says you've never had a bank account have you ever had a bank account I said yeah with my ex-wife like I think we open like maybe five or 10 years ago but I pretty sure she closed it and she's looking at me and I'm looking at her what I mean you know I don't want to keep running my mouth I'm just going to get myself in trouble I don't know what she's looking at and then she goes and does this with the with the ID you know to see the um hologram I made the ID so I'm like oh my God what is she doing and she goes hold on gets up goes in goes cross the bank talks to her manager her manager comes out she holds up the thing looks at it looks over at me says something they have a conversation she goes yeah walks over sits down she says okay do you want a gold plan or the silver or the I was like uh I don't whatever you know whatever and I pick an account that or a plan that I want for my checking account she opens it I never talk again I sign the documents I get my stuff I leave probably should have panicked and what felt panicky but what choice do I have I can't run out of the bank I'm done if I run out of the bank I'm just screwed my car is parked in the park lot they're going to know something's wrong I have to just sit here did you ever lie or cheat as a as a child like maybe in a school test well like is was there any like indication that maybe you had uh uh a leaning towards doing something that was maybe on the edge no my mom said I was a good boy um uh no I don't think so I don't think so listen I was almost 30 the first time I ever committed fraud like I gotten a couple tickets think I had to go to traffic school one time when I was you know in my you know teens but you know I I mean I first of all I was already had a problem anyway I had I had a learning disability I was going I had to go to schools for kids with learning disabilities so I wasn't in like a normal high school or a junior high it was always I was always going to these schools that you know there's 20 kids in the whole school I mean that's a problem in and of itself but the schools are so small and there's no there's no cheating like it's not like I'm cheating it's not like I'm stealing anything I was raised up middle class uh my parents had money so I don't think there was any reason for I I don't think I would either like I don't think I would be interested in in picking up your Rolex you know going into like I've got a buddy who's like oh I would go into my buddy's houses and like say I have to go to the bathroom like meet some guy you hang out like it you're 15 years old hey come to my house go to his house and say hey I got to go to the bathroom sure it's in there walk in and then swipe like a watch or some jewelry or something and then leave then stay there the whole time for another two hours play some video games and then leave with the watch like I would I would I wouldn't do that you know I wasn't interested in doing that you know I was struggling just to get through life in high school you know just to graduate high school and then I went to college you know it's interesting because I feel like a lot of people put in that situation where you're struggling to make the payments on your car and you're barely living right and you're very impoverished and you get put in a situation well are you have to do is do something little bit of a white out on something that seems like it's completely harmless and you can make 3500 bucks and that's the world to you I think a lot of people would do that and I would say that most people in that situation would do it but I've I've also had those Brokers like when I opened a brokerage business and I had whatever around 12 guys working there like I had a guy he had worked for like I forget like Leman brothers or you know burn or what is it what is it um be Sterns be Sterns or something like he had been in a program you have to work there for like 2 years they train you for 2 years and then you can quit if you quit before that you owe them money I don't know if you know that you owe like whatever 60 Grand or something so he waited the two years quit and came to work for me but after about 3 months of seeing people do things he said yeah I can't work here so it's like he was like that's a that's what he should have done right that's what I should have done you know but I didn't how did it progressively get worse from doing white outs gentle massaging arrogance you know what I'm saying like I it's funny because I I tell my wife this is like because I'm super I'm super cocky super arrogant like just narcissistic like just love to talk about myself like it's an issue like it's an issue that I I notice when I'm talking to someone I'll stop myself periodically and be like bro shut up you keep you know this guy's trying to tell you something you interrupted with your with one of your stories like he give a [ __ ] about your story he's trying to tell you something it's something that I'm conscious of but I wasn't earlier in life and I always tell my wife that every bad decision I've ever made was based on arrogance I didn't want to lose my car because I'm going to have to go to my dad and say Dad I need you to give me $1,000 because my $500 car payment is behind two months I'm I've got to pay it they're going to take my car I didn't want to say that or I'm going to lose my house or whatever I'm going to lose my you know townhouse or whatever like I was embarrassed I didn't want I didn't want to be embarrassed in front of my father so what percentage of your loans that you did at that first firm you think were fraudulent what percentage yeah almost every one of them at the first place I first place I worked was called Eagle lending it got shut down by the department of banking finance and the FBI I think has nothing to do with me you know one day we showed up and they're locking the doors they actually they locked the doors and me and another broker I never talked about this me and my another broker actually had to climb up on the roof of the business and slide a a a window open that like never locked or something or I had unlocked it I forget what happened but uh um I slid it open we we stole all the files like we went from desk that we got all her files all my files and then a bunch of files from other people and then we went to another brokerage business and closed them there and then I opened up my own you know I don't typically get into all that but I eventually after a few months I opened my own place I hired like 12 guys you know and because back then in Florida if you had a you were a mortgage broker for $250 extra you could become a brokerage business owner you know unlike in real estate you have to wait a few years you have to take a whole the broker's test which is you know mhm not easy back then you didn't have to do anything to become a be able to hire basically salespeople but before we get into that AI actually might just be the most important new computer technology out there I mean we literally use it on every single episode of the iced coffee hour and people ask me they say Jack what do you use it on and guess what I'm not going to tell you but billions of dollars are being invested so you better buckle up the problem however is that even though billions of dollars are being invested AI still needs a lot of speed and processing power so how do you compete without these costs spiraling out of control well it's funny you ask that Graham because I'll tell you exactly how it's time to upgrade to the next generation of the cloud Oracle Cloud infrastructure or our sponsor oci for those una aware oci is a single platform for your infrastructure database application development and AI needs on top of that Oracle has four to eight times the bandwidth of other clouds offers one consistent price instead of variable Regional pricing and of course Nobody Does it Better Than Oracle that means now you can train your AI models at twice the speed and at less than half the cost of other clouds so if you want to do more and spend less like uber 8 by8 and data bricks Mosaic take a free test drive of oci at oracle.com once again that's oracle.com oracle.com with the link Down Below in the description thank you so much and now let's get back to the episode so how much were you making at the end of that that first firm maybe 10 or 122,000 after they take their money probably was making 8 to1 122,000 for six months but within six months it's it's over and I listen the first first month I closed like four loans which was unheard of like we were generating our own leads it's not like really good money too like 1999 right it was it was great one I was thrilled so you can imagine how I felt you know 6 months or eight months later when that whole thing fell apart I was crushed then they kept all the files we we break in we get the files hate to say break in I slid the window they were my files I felt so I took the files we closed those we made like 20 or 30 grand cuz we got very little money Eagle was paying like 70% found out then most places give you 40 or 50% but they give you leads Eagle didn't do that so we closed those they still took 40 or 50 uh percent I got a chunk of money I opened my own place hired a bunch of guys that doesn't make a lot of money right away but within a few months it starts making money especially when these guys you start to when they start to realize pretty much anybody that walks in the door I'm going to make sure they get a loan like unless you're in bankruptcy or you claim bankruptcy six months ago I'm going to do anything I have to to get you Al loone I I have to stay afloat and after a few months that place starts to make good money is that from Word of Mouth people saying hey I went to this place I got a loan yeah does anybody question if they come in and they like they have a low income and they say I want a $300,000 loan but you change the numbers without them knowing do people question they how they got it they just don't know no cuz they feel like they should be able to get a loan right like I don't know why my credit union turning me down and the bank turned me down but my real estate agent said I should go to you you know it was always bothered me too because the real estate agents would send me stuff especially it's funny this one woman Lyn cadella this chick I must have done two or three million do worth of her loans she's a real estate agent and I'm doing I mean I got her into a ton of property that she could not qualify for and she would send me people but she she would send her customers to like her good customers that had good job she send them to oh I send them to Brad because Brad does conventional loans and he can get them good right but if the guy is horrific and Brad turns him down and his credit union can't do him and he's been to three other you got to go see Matt so well I'm thinking I should get Brad's stuff too that's what I think I'm only getting the crap wa and and she was like yeah but he gets really good rates I'm like yeah but I'm signed up with Countrywide and all those I'm to sign same lenders I can get them that rate keep in mind she knows all her loans are fraudulent she knows that not just that she's a real estate agent like she she had been doing it like 20 years so she's buying a duplex so you'll appreciate this sure that's oh my God so she had like a house her own personal residence right so when you pull her her her credit she's got like a keep in mind these are 20 year old prices so it's not like that it'd be a million now but so she would have like a a $250,000 loan on her her house her personal residence this single family resident I would say that was a a quadplex and I would change her like schedule Ease on her her um taxes or I bring her last two years taxes and I bring them to a bookkeeper who would change them so we' say that the house she's living in now is a a quadplex then I would turn around she would be buying let's say a duplex I must have bought 12 duplexes within about a month for her all of them owner occupied so she's getting 95 to 100% loan to value so she so she's bringing let's say she's bringing for $100,000 duplex she's let's say it's a 90% for the sake of argument we jack up the purchase price to cover the whole thing and then she'd bring $10,000 for her closing for her down payment which she doesn't need because the 90% covers it and then we would get that money cut back to a construction company for work that had supposedly already been done does that make sense so now she's gets her money right back so we just turned a 90% LTV into into like 100 to 105% and if we could get the value I'd have her walk away with more than her down payment I had people that would come with 20,000 down and walk away with 50 and the more you do that the more the area if you stay within a certain area it keeps going up but up but up she's a real estate she's a real estate broker actually she's a real estate broker I had another woman named uh Kelly Kelly Bailey same thing millions of dollars in loans uh lawyers did loans for lawyers did a loan for a doctor how do they justify it like real estate agent does she just feel I know the area I know what I'm doing is I'm make Shady yeah exactly the banks are so harsh yeah they don't you know it's it's just the banks and I'm going to make the payments the fact that she doesn't actually qualify for the loan you know doesn't that didn't affect her as far as I know she made all the all those but wouldn't you have a disproportionate uh amount of borrowers for clothes as opposed to other Brokers they didn't track it back then keep in mind oh so it was just like out in The Ether so as soon as you within 30 days those things are being so let's say I closed with there a company called um um house uh not Household Bank well there was a Household Bank but there was one called let's say mortgage Warehouse it was a lender let's say we close a loan with mortgage Warehouse within 2 3 weeks they've already packaged it together with a $2 million bundle and they've sold it to Household Bank or they've sold it to Wells Fargo or Countrywide it's just a mortgage and a package of 20 other mortgages or or 150 other mortgag which honestly within three months gets sold again within six months it gets sold again and they didn't track it well they don't track anything they don't you know now mortgage brokers have a specific number that stays with them and they track it they didn't do that then so then you decided to create your own brokerage right and then you hired out 12 or so people right to do loans what did that look like for you and did you try to instill these values in the other Brokers like okay just INE yeah no it was a mill it was a mill like I mean I like I guys would come in and they'd say listen bro I I I got a loan okay the guy's got 720 credit scores uh he currently owns his own house i' be like okay is he self-employed employed no no he he's employed but he doesn't quite make his he his debt to income R like 70% but he's renting the place he's gonna rent the place out that he buys but he doesn't have the down payment okay well here's what you need to First find out and I'd be like find out how much we can get it appraise for find out what the rents are find out you know we go I'd go through all the things that we need to know once they came back I'd structure a way for that loan to get closed you know we can get him a 90% loan that will cover the entire thing he's going to have to bring the down payment I'll get him the money back if he can't come up with it I'll bring the down payment we have to close at my title one of my title companies that we work with because let's face it I don't want to I'm not giving him the money to put in his bank account that's actually part of the reason I ended up opening a bank like a started by own it's not a real B you know a a bank an online bank because sometimes you know you have something called seasoning Bank of America if you're coming to them and you're buying a house and you're putting down 5% down payment they want to see that it's been in the bank for 90 days cuz they don't want the seller to have given you the money right they want to know no no we need to see three months bank statements showing the money's been in your bank I'm not giving this guy you know 20 grand to sit in his bank I don't know him you know so I can't do that so what we would we would figure out did we maybe we Chang the we change the bank statements you know or we'd structure it in such a way that we could try and make it seem like he had a car that got sold and we'd had and the money went straight into the um into es into the uh the escrow um account or you know it gets hard so what we ended up what I ended up doing was saying look I'm just going to create an online bank called uh we had a few of them but one of them was a a bank of ebore so it's like Bank of eb.com and I came up with bank statements color bank statements front and back you have to trim them down bank statements are a little bit smaller to trim them down I had to go make envelopes and the the whole thing um so I did that and then I you could go online and you could look there was it was only four or five pages right you can look but it it looked very official it had a phone number and so they could call the phone number if they call the phone number then it rings to one of my phones and then I answer the phone you know Bank of vmore how can I help you or it would go to Voice voem mail and the voicemail would say it would had a little thing about hi you know hey this is Bank of bbor we're a small local bank located in eor city just outside of Tampa Florida you know please we're currently experiencing high callar volume blah blah blah right you don't know like now you can't call anybody right but back then you could and you'd leave a message a small local bank that can't get to the phone call right now makes sense now you can't say it's a big bank so they would call leave a message or I'd answer the phone I'd call them back and I would verify the the money was in the bank we typically we'd ask them to fax over a verification of deposit and I would verify whatever they told me I wouldn't just say oh yeah yeah I do the whole thing like you type on the thing hold on it's like what was the name you know and do you have the account number okay okay that was what again hold okay I'm sorry could you say it again okay uh yeah I listen I can't tell you what they have in the but what they have in the bank but I in their bank account but I can I I can you know um verify it if you can tell they oh says that their 90-day average is you know 27,2 bucks that's it you're good okay thank you click how did you know they were calling for that did you have different phone numbers set up so that if someone calls on this number that's this bank I have like I got like 12 phones you have 12 phones you keep track of them lab you just put a on the back of it you just put like this is brand Brandon Green's phone and you put a piece of tape so if I grab that phone you just look at the back Brandon green this is his work phone okay hi Express Tax Services how am I help you you know or you or you call you know Tracy my god um my um secretary in Tracy Tracy come here she like oh God who is it Brandon green it's his work he works for such and such okay hi this is and she answers how did you find people that were okay with working you on I mean I told you like out of all the time I can only really think of one guy that wasn't okay with it very quickly look you have to pay more it's like for these people like no but I'm already paying a lot you're getting 70 so we charge an application fee of like 325 which is probably be 600 now but $325 application fee so I get that right the house gets that and then we get 30% of of any fees that come in so you get 70% nobody's paying 70% they're paying 40% 50% most of our customers are coming from Real Estate Investors or Realtors so Realtors Real Estate Investors and of course you could do the cold call thing where you call you know the um the ads for people trying to sell their own house and you just say hey I'm a mortgage broker can I come put a sign in the front yard just to make sure that whoever is buying your house is qualified but let's face it if you're a real estate agent and your customer's been turned down by three people three Banks and then somebody somebody at the uh brokerage business where you work says listen you need to call this guy and you call me and that thing closes two weeks later and you're like wow what happens the next time you have a a loan that's tough that you know this guy's got a problem he's had four job jobs he's had this he got turned down by his bank he wants to buy the house my customer wants to sell the house he didn't know if he can get qualified you're going to be like you know call this guy cuz you really haven't done anything you might think I know something's fishy but you're just a real estate agent you didn't do anything I just told him the guy closed like three loans for me I thought he was good you know if the FBI ever came and said hey why do you send this guy 25 people in the last six months you what are you talking about I thought he was good he's a great broker why he's committing fraud okay well I don't know that you got nothing that says I know that you don't have a text you don't have a phone call you don't have anything so you're going to send me people and we had tons of people listen it got so bad that other brokerage businesses in the area would call up and say Matt can you come by the office we have a loan I go okay stop by a couple hours later what's up they pull out the file and they'd say here's the problem and I'd look through the file and I'd go okay well you're your you know the property is is 3 and a half miles from the closest comparable that's it needs to be within supposed to be within half a mile they'll go up to a mile but after that it gets to be a problem all three of your comparables are six miles 8 Miles nine miles like come on what are you doing you're cherry picking the comps nobody's going to do this loone the appraisal is bad is what I'm saying and so I would say Okay um all right well give me the file and I'll give you I'll send you 500 bucks you know I try and do that like you know a referral fee where you I'll give you a referral fee no no no we want to close it it's a $400,000 loan what are you talking about well you can't close it but then close it I do that I try and get the loan but if if that didn't work out then I would try and do get well then great I'll tell you what's wrong see if you can f see if you can fix it give me send me a th bucks whatever so I'd try and help them out like that maybe I'd make the W2s and pay stubs charge them a grand they're going to make seven or eight grand or 10 grand whatever their fee is for $400,000 loan give me throw me a grand I'll I'll make some W2 and pay stuff I'll even verify it for you how much were you making at the peak of working as a broker like that see as a broker I don't think I was making that much I think maybe a 100 200,000 a year like I'm probably making 10 or 15,000 doing that now obviously that changes when I start committing fraud because eventually I get caught So eventually what happens is my brokerage businesses my bro brokerage business and all these Brokers are committing fraud I had gotten married my I had a a son my wife does not want to work you know she wants to she wants to be a stay-at-home mom and I said well that's great but well how about this we buy a bunch of rental properties you can collect the rent from the rental properties you can rent them out you meet the maintenance guys that sort of thing she said no problem so I get about 54 55 rental units within about a year all fraudulent like she didn't have a job and they're all in her name yeah so we're bringing money we're bringing 20 $30,000 to closing walking away with 50 60 Grand so that we've got 20 or 30 in our pocket so we can do some Renovations we rent out the properties Life's good right she's renting them out she collects a rent things are good does she have any idea absolutely so she knew was all fraudulent yeah and if you ask her to this day she'll say I had no idea she was she was a licensed mortgage broker and we used to work at a bank got it stop every application said she worked for some I think I don't know what who' I have her work for somebody like um God was it like a like one of the businesses I created was Express Tax Services so you know you know and we actually have a a good relationship right now she sees this luckily she never watches my stuff cuz she gets infuriated so she's not going to see this so I can say it okay even if she did she'd just call me up you scumbag she'd tell you I was a scumbag you keep my name out of your mouth um so she she's got all these loans and we're buying them some of them were you know were keeping them well it turns out that they were buying places renovating them renting them out and sometimes selling them but sometimes keeping them and she's got like 50 some OD units turned out that remember my old mortgage broker or my own manager Gretchen Gretchen had started her own company called uh this you're love this creative financing creative financing brokerage business or something anyway she and her husband so she and Pete had opened there had done this and so what I did was I would go and buy a piece of property and I would renovate it and then I would sell it to my my wife at the time she never took my last name our addresses were never the same like I made sure that we appear to be two completely separate entities right so she doesn't have my last name none of our jobs overlap none of our addresses overlap so that because if you did that then when you pulled her her credit it would it would connect us they'd say oh this person lived at a house here with this guy Matt Cox and he's the owner you know no you don't want that buy properties renovate them sell them to her and the reason I did this was seasoning right so I buy the property for $100,000 I renovate it for 50 and I can't refinance it so which the way people think oh you bought it for 100,000 let's say it's a quadplex you bought a quadplex for $100,000 you renovated it for 50 Grand now it's worth 250 so just refinance it you can pull out your your 150 that you have in it plus 50 or 60 Grand you're right you can in a year for about a year they won't let you do it but if I'm just some guy who bought the property renov I can sell it to somebody for the full value and make my money so that's what I would do buy the property renovate it now it's worth 200,000 or 250 whatever the appraise value is I'd sell to her for 230 she would bring $30,000 to closing and she ends up with the property of course the 30,000 is ours so it doesn't matter she ends up with the property she rents it out and that's it she's got it rented out doesn't seem like anyone suffering though what about taxes on that wouldn't you then be showing that you sold the property for a profit and have to pay tax on that I mean you would but I I was I was actually audited one time and I remember I was during this whole thing I was audited at one point keep mind too she was she actually went American Express tax business services so American Express actually has a Tax Service Company we actually sent her there for like two or three days to be trained to keep the books so we're we're also doing things like see this is why I guess in a way this is bad that he's asking most people don't ask these questions okay so let's say I have this is bad don't judge me Jack so let's say I have some uh a a group of Mexicans come and put um a new roof on the house or on the quadplex and they charge whatever prices back then $5,000 I would write you write an initial check to him for let's say 2500 bucks um so you would write like um how can I put let's let's say more like $900 so you put $900 you know $900 but you don't put it all the way on the line you put it for farther back and then so you go and you go to give them the thing you go hey you know what do you are you going to deposit this like are you going to go cash it I can cash it I got the cash right now they go yeah yeah yeah I'm G to cash it I go you want me to cash it yeah yeah yeah okay well here sign the back of it to me write your whatever your your whatever numbers you have for your license your license if they have a license write your license number whatever your social security number whatever but write over all so that I can 10.99 you at the end of the year yeah yeah no problem roofer these roofers and stuff and and you know they're not licensed so they're never going to claim any of this money so I can 10 99 them so I give them 900 bucks take the take the check and I write $3,900 and then I go deposit it comes out of my business account into my personal account and it looks like he I just wrote him a check for $3,900 and the next check I do the same thing $500 $4,500 you know $800 you know $1,800 so I just write on the front of it you know whatever $2,500 so you're selling at 230 basically you're showing that you made no profit on this well or maybe a little bit of profit I don't want paying a little bit of money you know you're going to pay a little bit I mean we were paying $5 $110,000 you know every month and well we're doing you know the quarterly withholding you know a little account you just keep putting the money in at the end of the year um you pay in 20 25,000 30,000 you think those guys ever got audited no and listen I would 1099 them we actually one time for the full amount or for theual the full amount they would get a check for like $55,000 and I remember one time a guy called and said what is this this thing you sent me 55 I don't owe you $55,000 I go no no no no no that's just for tax purposes bro that's that's just the total of what we spent on the property for the renovation even though they only earned like 5,000 no idea like they don't they're they're they're illegal and they don't claim they've never claimed and so you're banking on them basically getting in 1099 and not doing anything with it we sent out tons of them and got one or two phone calls questioning maybe one guy might have said like I don't remember it being that much like well are you going to claim it I mean you want me to go over the book nah Noah no don't worry about it of course don't worry about it you don't claim taxes but you but you would send this to the IRS yeah oh yes i' send the IRS so it's so it's with the IRS and he signed it he wrote his his driver's license number on it everything I mean let's face it the guy that an independent contractor's nightmare yeah but did they ever get AIT it or like did they not that I know of listen I've done much worse than that I I sleep I don't have a problem with that at all I don't think but here's the thing it would be tough for them to fight it with the IRS because the IRS is going to have they've never claimed taxes and they're not going to fight it they're illegal like you're not even supposed to be here they're not claiming taxes first of all if I told them hey I paid you 55,000 when I'm fact I only paid you 15,000 there's probably another 30 or 40,000 in in 1099s coming to them too what does it matter if you're not paying it on 50 it doesn't matter if you're not paying it on a 100 you're just here to make money to send back to Mexico yeah he probably doesn't even exist in the eyes of the IRS right probably probably not yeah and if they if they audited him you know by because they get all these 1099s with this social security number then if they audited him let's say they'd say Hey you owee $40,000 what what does it matter if he owes 40 or if he owes 20 he's not paying it you know he doesn't care but we never had that comeback like listen I've been charged with almost everything so that's the one thing you know well no I was charged with money laundering so I guess I would probably fall in well no I guess it'd be tax fraud too although you know what before we go into that I just want to say that overall we talk a lot about investing on the channel we talk a lot about business but without exaggeration investing has changed my life it's something that I got into when I was like 18 19 years old from that point forward I started investing as much money as I possibly could I found the financial independent retire early community that got me into the whole mindset that you could make your money last a lifetime you don't have to start with a lot and as long as you invest consistently as long as you do that for a long time that'll turn into a substantial amount like just investing $5 a day could leave you with a million dollars in like a few decades I would say investing to me means more confidence in the future and I feel like I can provide more from my family what family are you talking about Jack you're single with no kids what family Graham I'm on Tinder I'm working through this okay but the point is investing is really important and if you are investing it's better to know what you're doing and if you want to know what you're doing the best resource is our sponsor Yahoo finance honestly without exaggeration I've been reading Yahoo finance for years I've come up with a lot of my video topics from Yahoo finance I've quoted them in many of my videos they're honestly just a fantastic resource to use if you just want to learn more about the market or just casually read to see what's going on day today so if you're interested the link is down below in the description to visit Yahoo finance I'd highly recommend it and I'm so excited they're sponsoring today's video because they're just a place that I would read regardless so thank you so much Yahoo finance for sponsoring today's video and now let's get back to the episode so when did things escalate from just like you know Whiting out and being and massaging some numbers in um in the the loan documents to then creating fake people this is one of the most fascinating things I think I've honestly ever heard well you got caught in between right right that's exactly what happened whated um which is funny because by the way this is vastly different than any other interview I've done because are asking vastly different questions like this is going completely off the tracks um compared to my normal Spiel cool what happened was remember those loans that I bought renovated and sold to my ex-wife I didn't do her loans at my company right I can't do that because I own the property it's not an arms link transaction you know it has to be an arms like they're like Mr Cox you own the property you can't also do a mortgage for the your borrower okay so I send her to Gretchen Gretchen loans creative financing or creative mortgage brokers or whatever it's called so I would prepare the whole package give it to Gretchen and we would close the loan I give her a couple Grand and the loan closes and that's it so Kayla's got the house she just borrowed 150 on this property 190 on this one ends up being like three or four properties like half a million dollars I think she ends up owing what ends up happening in the meantime and this has been years we've been I've been in business a few years at this point what ends up happening is Gretchen had done what's called a straw man scam with some guys some investors had come in they bought a bunch of properties that could have praised for you know let's say a million dollars but they were buying them for like 600,000 so they got a a loan for like 900,000 pulled out 300,000 and they did this for like five or six properties right so they end up making like a half a million a million I don't know exactly what they made but Gretchen did all the loans these guys never even made the first payment that's a first payment default if it's the first payment default they're going to in invest I'm sorry investig it so now I think it's up to a year there's not even such a thing as first payment default now if you it gets inv investigated if you don't make the first 12 months payments so the FBI comes in and investigates it they say you know they realize they look at the paperwork it's a straw man scam like this person it's the W2s are fake everything's fake they go into Gretchen's office and they don't raate her office but they show up with give her the business card the whole thing and so she calls me and tells me that hey the you know she's like the FBI came by you know oh my gosh I went to her house we all had a conversation was oh my God you I'm just concerned she's in trouble no big deal she says can you refinance my house so I can pay an attorney this attorney wants like 75 grand I was like um yeah I was like yeah but Gretchen you don't have you know like you're cooking the books too you're claiming very little money and she said you know look I'm going to give you W2s and pay stubs I was like okay so she gives them to me I put the loan through she gets 75 grand she pays an attorney first thing that attorney says is you need to wear a wire on this guy so um so she goes to the FBI says listen here's three Lo three or four loans I think it was three three loans that he did for his wife he said he wasn't married to her all the W2s and pay subs are fake so they set me up and we meet at like a pizza place and we sit down cuz she calls me up she's like oh my God I got to meet you the FBI is asking questions about you we go we meet I'm like what's going on she's like look that the FBI they're asking all kinds of questions about Kayla about you and I go oh my God you didn't tell them the W2s were fake did you you didn't tell them we were married you didn't tell them like I just bury myself keep mind did you have did you have any idea she was trying to set you up like is it ever a good idea if someone's like hey we got to talk in person to check them for a wire yeah well not in my business it's not but I mean if you're just a regular guy sure but you know saying like I should you know and here's the thing look could you have could you have checked like said hey I need you to like lift up your shirt a little bit done yeah I could have just listened to my ex-wife cuz I didn't know anybody that had ever been arrested right my ex-wife is Puerto Rican and she has family members that did 10 years she knows people that have been arrested she told me don't go see them don't talk to them on uh anymore they're going to cooperate and they're going to get you [ __ ] up and I was like these are friends of ours this is my friend like we we went to Puerto Rico together like we've been on vacation together we went to Disney World together like what are you talking about she's going to turn on me and she was absolutely right she was right like I should have just listened to her I should have been like you're being investigated especially when she asked me to refin I should have been like look I don't want nothing to do with it right but I'm thinking I'm being a friend so anyway so when she asked me those questions and I I just bury myself I didn't realize what was happening until when I started saying look okay here's what you do I said tell them that you never met Kayla tell them she called you you only talk to her on the phone tell like I'm trying to come up with a way that she can just separate herself like look I got a phone call I set up alone the girl cloes I've never met her I can't help you you know so I said then well and she no no no she goes we can't lie to the FBI we can't lie to the FBI I what are you talking about I go I mean you've been lying you're already lying like your mortgage was a lie like you're what do you and her husband stands up and he goes stands up he goes we've never lied to the FBI we may not have told him everything but we've never lied oh my God and I was like so I mean like I I know that's not true right I just did your L I know that that's not true so it's like like who are you talking to bro like you're not talking to me cuz I know that we I just committed fraud for you so I was like and I thought oh [ __ ] and like I remember both their cell phones like literally when they sat down they put their phones like right next to me and I was like like first of all whatever you just said that's totally not what's happening and two your phones are here and honestly I don't know what their phone they may have been wired I don't know if it was a phone but I just remember seeing the phones yeah and I thought wow and I looked at and I go well I hope you're getting something for this I hope you're getting something for me and she looked at me she immediately welled up and started crying and she goes I don't have to go to prison she goes Matt I I I have a kid I I I I'm sorry and I went I I said I don't have a kid and I said listen tell the FBI agent do not come in my office cuz when the FBI went to her office everybody quit she had like six or eight people they all quit and I said tell them not to come in my office call me I'll come down and talk to them and I got up and I left so I wasn't it took me 15 minutes to get to the office I wasn't there 5 minutes before my secretary walks in and says hey there's an agent Scott Gail on the phone wow for you and I was like holy [ __ ] get on the phone he says hey I'm I'm sure you know why I'm calling like not even pretending like didn't even wait a couple days um and he and he said I understand that you're willing to come down and talk to me I said yeah okay I said I'll be down there on Tuesday or something so instead what it was like a Thursday or something so I immediately go out and start interviewing attorneys I pay an attorney like 75 grand apparently that's a going rate he calls them he calls off that meeting we negotiated over the course of several months and keep in mind by the time as we're negotiating one they wanted to charge my ex-wife and I was like she didn't have any idea what's going on she only signed the documents she doesn't know anything you know completely un true um but I figured if anybody's got to get in trouble I'll get in trou you know I'm going to be the tough guy right I'm G to be I know I'll I'm going to protect you even though we're in the middle of a divorce um but I figured there's no reason for me if somebody had to go to jail like it should probably be me like I am not capable of taking care of a kid I could barely feed my dog you know I mean and she had family and everything else that could help her and honestly really didn't think I was going to go to jail anyway so what ended up happening was I ended up saying look I'll plead guilty to wire fraud um you drop all the charges against her and they said okay but it was so funny too I'm going tell you this um my my lawyer at the time had said I remember like our first or second meeting he goes how close are you to your wife I was like not close at all we're we're getting a divorce and he goes you know he's like all the loans are in her name he said I mean I could Pro he said and by the way we were selling the properties by this point we'd already sold like two of those properties we've got another one who's that's going to be sold like it's all going to be sold within a month or two so these loans don't even exist we made all the payments the loans don't even exist there's no loss now there's something called potential loss where you could have lost money but there was no potential loss because the properties were worth $200 or $300,000 and the loans were only like one 1301 180 160 something like that there was more than enough equity to cover that so there's no potential loss so I can't even go to jail based on the federal sentenc and guidelines and he says to me we can do something called a a pre-trial intervention since these are all going to be paid off all you need to do is go and cooperate with them and go and it's my understanding based on Gretchen and Pete that you're running a a mill right you got a bunch of guys in there doing fraud so all you have to do is go into the The Brokerage business and get a bunch of the most egregious files that your Brokers have committ commed fraud on bring him to the FBI explain the whole thing and I can keep you from being indicted at all you don't even get charged and I was like I'm not going to do that yeah but then your guys would get in trouble right yeah they would all get in trouble they'd all be in trouble and I was like I'm not doing that I'm not gonna you know but the truth is you know it looking back on it what I you know so I I thought once again you know arrogance stupidity I'm going to be a standup guy I've seen Godfather you don't talk you don't tell on your friends and if I knew then what I know now I would have gone into the Friday meeting that we had you know how real estate you know every Friday or whatever yeah one day a week everybody gets together you have a meeting how how are the files going how is this how's that I had have gone in to that meeting with a dolly and scooped up one of the file cabinets and wielded in the back of a pickup truck and told those guys you're probably going to be contacted by the FBI if I was you I'd get a lawyer and I'd have gone and cooperated and buried every single one of them cuz the moment the FBI came looking they all buried me you see what I'm saying like I thought there's no sense of loyalty at all none none but these are like normal people these are every is going to say you turn yourself in you know against this guy then you're going to get off and they go to you you you got to turn against this guy and you get off and then it's whoever comes in first I believe with who probably gets the best deal the guy that kind of starts first and because there was no loss and it was just a white collar crime I could have kept from being indicted at all but you and that's the thing everybody thinks they're like you know I always say a gangster you not that you think you're a gangster but everybody thinks they're like a tough guy like I C I love that if you you know don't commit the crime if you can't do the time is't that catchy you know it is so if you go and you commit a crime and you think well what's the most you can get for this and you go I'll probably get probation and they say you're getting 10 years now what I'll do it you're say you'll do it because you haven't had handcuffs on you you haven't spent three months in a in a jail cell you haven't seen what you're going to be around the whole time you haven't seen that all your buddies already stopped talking to you and if you're gone more than if you're gone for three months your house you lose your house your your wife is calling you with your little kid sitting in the in the visitation room crying her eyes out begging you don't you care about me don't you care about your son what about your daughter don't you care all they want you to do is cooperate [ __ ] those guys see everybody's a gangster sitting at the table with their buddies but when it comes down to to it it's not that easy and your buddies that you're protecting are all taken off they're all talking [ __ ] about you they don't answer the phone they don't nothing so it's like you know the whole omara thing right like The Godfather the omara the Code of Silence like it doesn't really exist it certainly never existed in in my any of my cases but theoretically if everyone did stay silent it would be much more difficult for them to to put that together but that's not what's going to happen you know listen the the Federal authorities not only will they if nobody talked they'll just find some guys in the in the like if you're locked up for three months guys in the unit that you're talking to will call their FBI agent say listen there's a guy named Matt Cox in here he committed two or three million do worth of fraud I know you guys want him uh he's fighting his case he told me all about his case he's committing fraud I can help you they'll put that guy on the stand even if they didn't know anything they'll take that guy put him in a room with your file so that he can figure out how to help them I actually wrote a book about a kid where they did that they put him and another kid gave him pizza and um orange soda uh Crush Orange Crush Soda uh for like two days straight so that they could get their story straight and testify against somebody that legal it seems highly illegal if they have nothing to do with the case but like their word yeah but I mean how legal is it for police officers to shoot people that are unarm armed and they don't get charged or they beat someone almost to death or they you know that happens all the time they don't even get charged maybe if they're lucky they get fired and then two months later they're hired at another another play listen Federal prosecutors are legally allowed to lie to you they're allowed to lie in your case they're allowed to lie to the court they never get charged it's almost never happened and it's egregious defense attorneys if they get caught lying they'll get dispar they'll get prosecuted the whole thing the system is so and I'm not saying this because like I dislike law enforcement trust me I I love law enforcement like I you don't know who Grady Jud is Grady Jud you've seen the videos he'll get in front of the microphone and he'll talk about you know he'll say well this guy you know this person right here barricaded himself in a double wide and was firing at the police and we shot 180 uh 180 bullets into that into that double wide and killed them and when the when a reporter says why did they fire 180 bullets into the double wide he says because they ran out of bullets M he goes dead can't be he evil can't be dead enough like he seems like a real Backwoods jerk off but that's the guy I want showing up I don't want somebody who's going to be soft and cuddly you know I want I I I I I want law enforcement all almost all the FBI agents in my case you know they may have been jerk offs at one point or another but honestly like you know how how upset can I be that you're I'm ripping off Banks I'm stealing money and you're an [ __ ] to me so what I don't deserve for you not to be understanding though police officers can lie in interrogations to try to get a confession so that to me at least kind of makes sense if they're trying to get you to admit something like Hey listen we got the proof If you tell us right now it's going to go easy that I could at least wrap my mind around not only lie to you they can PR you things they can make overt promises if you tell us this you will be let go and you could leave right who's who's able to make those promises and actually keep them us attorneys are okay but never police officers right but they'll they no but us attorneys will never do it in writing or they have a way of saying it they'll say listen if you tell us this we'll take it into consideration and we'll reduce your sentence and you go okay here and you tell them and then they go and they prosecute the person and then you go okay well you're supposed to reduce my sentence you said I wouldn't have to go to jail or whatever and they go yeah I know no we said we consider it and we did consider it and it's not enough so how do you do that if you're in a position like that are you supposed to say I'll only tell you if you get it in writing right and they'll say ah go do the time go do your five years see you we won't put it in and I've wrote a bunch of true crime stories when I was locked up out of all the cases I've heard and all the guys stuff that I've looked at I've seen one person make or get a letter that was signed by a PR prosecutor that promised 100% this person would get a sentence reduction if they simply told them what was going on in the case one person do you know who the the prosecutor was that wrote that document Robert mher he was a US attorney he eventually became the FBI director and then he investigated Trump he's the only person that's ever actually I've seen written one oh typically they just say look we'll consider it and your lawyer says what choice do you have tell them and they'll do something like look and honestly 90% of the time they they do do something right like if it if it bears fruit you tell them something and nobody ever gets arrested they don't give you anything if you tell them and they get arrested there's about a 90% chance they'll give you something for it you know so you know most of the time it works yeah sometimes it doesn't so in your position then talking with the attorney what was their advice to getting out of this given that you did not want to turn on people I mean my attorney's advice was to cooperate against my Brokers I can I I think I can keep keep mind at that this level it's so minor you know what I'm saying there's no money has been lost nobody lost money there's no potential to lose money it was basically you lied on an application it's wire fraud so he's like I can keep keep you from being indicted but I didn't want to do that you know so instead I said I'm not going to do that I'll take probate I I'll take whatever they give me I and we thought it was going to be probation I ended up getting three years probation they dro the charges on my wife I get three years probation I sell my business to a guy named Dave Walker who was a um he was a CPA and um he started running my business and he kept me on as like a consultant and was paying me like eight grand a month was that legal yeah that was fine I actually got permission from the court saying he can act as a consultant for his old business he can't own it anymore but your honor it's all he knows how to do and you know was such a minor thing it was it was wire fraud it was fraud you got three years probation and and right then that's one of those things that I talked about where like that's when I should have said I'm going to claim P I'm going to claim name bankruptcy I'm going to move in with my parents I'm going to start my life over I'm going to figure out something else to do that's what I'm going to do with my life but what happened to all the the the real estate portfolio that you were developing at the time did they just take it all no why no they only had three they never talked to my wife they had no proof that any of these other loans were bad I could they investigate it I mean they have to have a right to pull a warrant they have to have they don't it's compli because like you said you were smallfish right I'm a small fish and they got me for this and I plad guilty and okay we got bigger we're going on to something else so who owned all of that real estate then my ex-wife your ex-wife owned it because it was in her name so you were completely removed from that right but remember the three that she did by the time I play guilty she told them interesting and but and they don't know that everything she's done is fraudulent I never spoke with them did you my lawyer talked to him so they were never able to ask me questions during the divorce did you try to get any of that real estate yeah but honestly she's Puerto Rican she's just way too mean she's just a uh she's very mean and she was she loves to fight and love to argue you she really just loved it I mean I she's one of those women you it's like 4 in the morning and you can't you're desperately trying to go to sleep for an argument and she just keeps going and going and going it's like 4 in the morning we've been arguing for 6 hours please stop I can't I'll give you anything anything why did you guys get divorced what was why do you think was it was it that why take a guess no I'm just curious because it's um I mean I think okay first of all we we dated and within 2 or 3 months she's pregnant okay okay so you know the alternative wasn't something I was okay with I was Catholic and and not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with that but there are certain there are certain reasons that I can say this is acceptable you know we're not broke we're not I'm not 15 years old and it's going to irrevocably destroy my life or change my life let's say so I can't use that it's not incest it's not right you know I had money we'll get married you know we and listen you know it's bad when you start the marriage off with everybody you tell you're getting married this is how you tell them I'm get oh by the way I'm getting married and if it doesn't work out we'll get a divorce like not how you say it you know it's doomed and so it was doomed and you know um and we were both fairly young and we barely knew each other and and honestly you know I had a lot of money I'm driving nice cars I'm having sex with a couple of my mortgage brokers oh so you're cheating on her yeah at this after within she figured within about a year she figured out she got a private investigator he's following me around she knows way too much did you know that there was a private investigator no I didn't until later she told me later after we were divorced um she had told me and it's funny too because I was dropping off my son one day and she had mentioned it CU we were still friends we still have a kid together and she mentioned I go I that's not true that's not true and I always used to look at her mother for confirmation I go that's not true I go milka her mom's I go milka and she goes it's true and I was like no my God she goes yeah she goes you're lucky you only lost what you lost she's like why why did you start cheating what was the Catalyst on that I mean I think I was just young and arrogant just you know it's so funny because I can't imagine like I'm married now I can't imagine jeopardizing what I have now but I was such an [ __ ] bro like even now you can see that I'm obnoxious I'm I'm slightly arrogant you know like it was this is tame this is tame I was a complete jerk off um yeah it just didn't work out and and and look she got remarried she married a guy listen she married the guy she married a guy that had been in the military for like she was like he was like a marine for like six years he only got out because he had broken his wrist and and couldn't do like some thing that they have to do they were like you can go to the Army he was like I'm not doing that he gets out so we're talking about he was he was also like 100% Puerto Rican his whole family had been in the military he had been in the mil he's been with a marine I was like you know like this is the perfect guy for her like he's the only she's the only one who's gonna put up with her what was the value of that real estate that she ended up getting at the time oh it was it was a a million million and a half worth maybe more than that and that's 20 something years ago and how many units was it you said it was actually 54 the most we ever had at one time was 54 was that not hard for you to stomach like okay all this work and all these in a year so you thought okay I can get this back yeah well that's listen that's nothing I I I I mean I don't know that we'll get to it but listen I've walked away from tons of money just because it's like look you know like I said it's not the money at this point I've got all the money I need like I've got money coming in I'm paying my bills I'm driving a [ __ ] sports car I've got two or three runal properties of my own I've got a property I'm renovating and we got divorced and I owned a piece of property and I should have moved back in with my parents like I said but just out of arrogance I just said you know I'm not going to do that I didn't want to be embarrassed in front of my father as more so than I'd already was embarrassed that now I'm a felon that's when I decided to start making synthetic identities that's when I started making we you know there was no such thing as synthetic identities back then they were called it was we called them Phantom borrowers I don't even think the synthetic identities even came into the term came into existence till probably five or 10 years later when you were on Pro probation did you know immediately okay I'm not done running scams yeah I would say roughly the same time maybe even months beforehand I had already kind of started creating a synthetic identity was part of that because you didn't want to give up the lifestyle that you'd become accustomed to like driving a nice car car having a nice place nice clothes yeah definitely definitely you know that that was super important to me was maintaining the image initially yeah yeah definitely what was the car and you know I had I had an Audi i' I mean I've had a few Audi and BMWs but I remember at that point I had like an Audi TT Quattro and they just come out they was just a super cool was that 2004 I believe they came out no this was in 20 no this was in 200 1 2002 old yeah wow yeah oh this like the first year really sporty car they they were super cool right free R8 I remember my my uh business partner was like 6'6 that guy Dave Walker he tried to get in at one time and he looked like and he looked like a clown in one of those clown cars the little clown car like his knees like I it was so it was hilarious I used to have a Lotus Elise seen people get in over six foot tall and they be there and their legs are like scrunched up there you feel bad for them it's the first time I've ever felt bad for somebody who's over six foot tall so anyway I I I that I had a property I was renovating in ebore city which is an area just out outside of Tampa that was built back in the early 1900s cigar factories right Cubans would come and work the cigar factories and they would make all these um or and they had tons and tons of these old houses what I decided to do was start creating fake people the reason I did that was initially what I thought was hey look here's what I'm going to do I'm going to start renovating properties I'm start you know rehabbing properties and you cuz you could buy them them for $50,000 you could buy a rehab if you put 25 in it you could sell it for 100 150 right maybe let's say 100 within reason buy it for 50 put 25 in it sell it you make 25 but you don't really ever make 25 right you still have carrying cost and everything probably have to give your because the people in those areas don't have good credit so I'm probably going to have to give you your down payment maybe we get an FHA alone maybe you know have to give your down payment pay your closing costs you probably quit your job three days before closing you know that's the kind of stuff that these guys do so I was like you know I'm going to buy these properties renovate them but then I also have to spend 25 or $30,000 I don't want to do that so it was like okay how can I what can I do here to make good money um without having to go in and do the construction myself and I was already flipping properties I've always been flipping something you know I decide I want to buy these properties they will only appraise at between 100 to 150,000 how can I get them to a praise higher and really to be honest like 100,000 how can I get into a phae higher well by that point I was dating a chick at a title company um and so I go to her and I say look how can I get how can I buy a property for 50 get it to a or get it the sale to show up at 200,000 and she was like well you can you can pay the extra dock stamps she said because if you buy something for $100,000 you pay $700 in Doc stamps right 0.007 700 bucks she goes if you paid an extra 700 it show up for2 200,000 so so this is a stamp that they put on the docum it's just the terms doc stamps it's it's just a term it's like let's say taxes yeah if you pay $700 in taxes that's so let's say that um so I was like okay well I'm buying these houses for 50 paying 350 so if I pay an extra $150 that $50,000 purchase will show up at2 200 and it's more complicated than this cuz I would vary it obviously some would be 210 would property taxes or insurance or all these other costs because they'd see a higher value property taxes would be higher insurance would be higher once it got assessed right but I'm only keeping it for a few months six months wouldn't they want that reassessment though because even for any properties I purchased they've always gone back and said okay you pay the lower amount now but then a year later you pay last year's right but I don't own it then and I'm not buying it in my name okay so you would okay so guess going in I'm so what I decide is I'm going to buy these houses for 50,000 I'm going to I'm going to record the sales at 200,000 and that way if I fix it up and sell it then I can make a huge profit margin but nobody's going to buy a house for 200,000 in abore City back then so I thought okay then I need to get a straw buyer right a straw man a fake person or let's say Graham's got perfect credit Graham we'll go into we're going to go into do this together you're going to buy five houses we're going to pull out 100,000 out of each houses and we we'll split it when I have to split it with a Graham cuz most people will let for 250,000 most people will destroy their credit for that they're like 250,000 in my pocket yeah I'll do that well but I don't want to split it with him and he's going to be a problem anyway soon as it goes bad he's going to [ __ ] and moan what if he says something no so what I need to do is create my own borrowers and so what I I end up doing is I figured out and I already knew how to do this because a customer had come in who was had used her son's social security number and it built up credit under his name using her name and his social security number and she had perfect credit so I knew that was possible so what I did was I figured out how to go to Social Security and I convince Social Security to issue me Social Security numbers for children that don't exist so you know in the way I did that real quick is I just called them once and at first I said hey you know um I forget how old I was then let's say 31 I'm I'm 31 years old and I've never had a social security number and they're like that's not true do you have a driver for license yes okay you have a Social Security number click you know then I call back hey um uh you know I was born they were like they were like are you born in a hospital I was like yeah they're like you've got one hang up then I said hey I was born with a midwife and I never had one well you have a driver's license yes you've got one damn it you ever had a bank account yes I'm like yeah and then um you know I tried to say I tried to say all these different things then I figured okay who wouldn't they were like there's no somebody said there's no way you can get to be 30 years old and not have one get your driver's license come down here we'll look it up for you well I don't want to do that so I went yeah I'm too old so I call back and I say Hey listen I got a three-year-old son he was born with a midwife he uh never had a social security number issued to him and they went okay well come down here bring your son you know [ __ ] hang up call back I say I I can't he's in you know Columbia with my wife or wherever she's going to have him there for the next year or two um but I need this to claim him on my taxes and so they come back and they're like the one woman one woman says yeah oh gosh she that's too bad she goes um how old is he and I went oh he's three and she goes oh that's too bad I said why she well if he was under 12 months old you wouldn't he wouldn't need to show up you could just bring his birth certificate and his shot record yes I hang hang up call back hi my son was born with a midwife he's 10 months old he's out of the country how do I get a Social Security number they said oh give bring his birth certificate and his shot record so I go online I print out a shot record for Hillsboro County vital statistics they show you how to print one out they even fill it out they have one that's an example of one that's filled out so I just use the date of birth right that I just chose for this fictitious person then I made a fake burst certificate I order I order the security paperwork you know one of those you make a copy of it it says void if copied like I make get get that it's multicolored you order like a thousand sheets of it it comes I end up coming up with a a birth certificate I go in Social Security I give them that give him the shot record they go oh that's so weird hold on they check and they go oh wow you're right he doesn't have a Social Security number they go you'll have one here's your stuff back they gave me a little print out that said almost nothing that I had ordered one or something they said you'll have one in 10 days sure enough two weeks later boom comes in the mail I got a social security number in a name that I just made up what is a midwife a midwife is a woman who usually goes to your house and assists with a birth at home cuz some people don't want to go to a some religions of course they they may not want to go to a hospital but then some people in general they don't want to pay $115,000 for for what they or maybe they've already had a kid and they know I can have a kid by myself I just need somebody to help me a midwife is is trained to help kind of like a nurse for birthing interesting and I only know that cuz I saw it on like 2020 it was like 2020 or 60 Minute ran and AD like I don't know what a midwife did I only knew that cuz I'd seen that so what's the value in just having a social security number now because it's to a you know 10-month old that doesn't exist well most people think that the credit bureaus know that social security number goes with this name and this date of birth but they don't know that they only know that when you tell them the first time you applied for a credit card you told them my name is Jack so and so here's my social security number here's my date of birth here's my address that creates a credit profile if you'd given them the wrong social or the wrong um name they would have created a profile in that wrong name now of course if you then changed it and gave them a different name they would connect it because the social security number and the date of birth was the same and maybe even the address and they'd say ah fraud alert something's wrong but I didn't I said you know the name was let's say this wasn't the name but let's say it was a Brandon green social security number date of birth and I said he's like a 31y old guy and it said so I pulled the credit well actually applied online for a credit card denied but the next time I applied there was an inquiry and keep in mind I I'm I can pull my own credit so I can go to like Network credit and I can pull the credit and see exactly what shows up so I can see the inquiry that I just did online an hour ago or if I do three all three inquiries show up so I'm like I now I know so what I did was I got three secure I would do that first and then I would get three secured credit cards 500 bucks 800 bucks $200 and I would make the minimum payments on those credit cards and in 6 months the credit bureaus automatically generate credit scores so now you've got a 710 credit score 605 whatever and you know it worked like a charm so what I I had already been doing that when I started buying the properties and recording the values at 200,000 by the time I was sentenced to three years paper I already had people ready to go so then I go out and I buy some properties for 50,000 record the values at 200 and I bought three or four of them so for every apprais subject property you need three comparable sales within roughly let's say a mile that have sold within roughly a uh a year you know they want six months and half whatever you know one mile one year well keep in mind I went into eore City and I bought this property that's 1,500 uh Square F feet and this one that's 1750 and this one that's 1820 and this one that's 1910 I bought all those those within two or three maybe within half a mile well all within half a mile some some are literally you could stand on the porch and see that one and that one and maybe another one's a half a mile away and so I cleaned those properties up bought them in different names and then called an appraiser to come out and appraise the property which by the way the the properties are gutted so like I'm just cleaning up the outside the appraiser comes in he looks at it and but he because he does so many appraisals for my brokerage business or my old brokerage business I tell him I'm renovating the property we're just going to pull out some money and do the renovations he SE me do a bunch of he goes ahead and do the appraisal WEP some some photos in of the inside of another house I get an appraisal for 210,000 I refinance it get an 80% loan so you get like whatever you know $170,000 or something like that right 165 whatever it comes to get $165,000 I only have 50 or 75 not even that I only have 50 or 60 Grand in it so I make a 100,000 profit so Brandon green buys this property or he refinances he buys this property refinances buys this property refinances buys this property refinances it buys five of them refinances it gets about a million dollar worth of mortgages pulls out $600,000 then of course I run up his by this point I've I've got credit cards for for five for 10,000 you know Countrywide used to if you put down like 10 grand immediately but I mean we're talking about within two weeks you've got a pre approv $10,000 credit card so it's like 100% financing right they're going to give it to back to their credit so I got the credit cards and then of course I turn around I apply for credit cards you get one for whatever 15,000 then you know then your score starts to drop then you you go to you get another one it's you know 1,200 bucks then you go to Home Depot and you get a $500 credit card and then you go to the Gap and you get a $350 credit card and then everybody's just denying you but it doesn't matter you end up with $50,000 in credit cards you at the same time I would go into multiple Banks and I get personal loans for 15,000 so I go to wov and get $115,000 I go to I go to all these places and get 15,000 that's another 45 so I'm getting $100,000 in personal loans and credit cards and then $600,000 so it's like $700,000 I make the payments on those houses for three or four months and then I just stopped paying you know but you've got the money I've got the money I made the payment and keep in mind too they're not first payment defaults and they've been sold three or four times by now to multiple different banks have bought these on the secondary Market but where is the money sitting different accounts under this guy so remember I said I would I could go in I could take that that ID and I could go in and get a uh and get a bank account so I can put the money in his bank account or in my bank account but then how does that money get from him to you if it's in his bank account then he could just write a check it's me I can write myself a check I sign Brandon green on Brandon Green's account but isn't that too obvious though it is obvious and it is stupid and I agree I absolutely but you also have to keep in mind too that I'm not thinking I'm going to get caught keep in mind I've been in the business mult you know whatever 3 four years at this point well let's say two or three years at this point and I've seen guys buy a house make four payments and it goes into foreclosure and it's all fraud all all your W2s fake pay subs we faked your down payment everything's fake you made three payments it went you pulled out $50,000 and it went to foreclosure nobody came looking so I've seen this happen over and over and over again what I knew was a guarantee was as long as you make the first payment and keep in mind too because I am these people I'm in control of them I know when somebody's calling to reverifying I know when somebody's calling any of these phone numbers nobody's calling like you might have some creditors call after they're 90 days late or 60 days late but that's all they're doing is calling nobody's showing up nobody nobody's saying fraud I at this point those files the original files don't even exist at this point they've turned those files into just like a series of numbers like it's now just it's now just on a series of numbers on a ledger somewhere remember how during the financial crisis people were getting their mortgages forgiven because they couldn't even find the original truth and lending good those those those loans are gone even if they're Warehouse somewhere they're not with whoever the Creditor is at this point now this is some guy in California calling some guy who he thinks works you know who's a laborer he thinks he a laborer or works for Express Tax Services they're calling from California to try and get in touch with this guy they don't have the files maybe mortgage Warehouse has the original file they don't so they're not looking for fraud they just want you to pay and if you don't pay and you give them a reason why you're not paying and that's what I would do I would take a um an article for let's say a um like a a 10ar pile up on I75 like there's a 10 car pile up and someone was life flighted to Tampa General Hospital and I would take copy and paste that article and I would put my guy's name saying my guy Brandon green was light was in the crash and he was LIF flighted at Tampa General hospital and he's in critical condition I print the article out I print it on newsprint I'd cut it up and make make then make a copy of that then I'd write a letter from his sister you know Jennifer green saying my brother was in a car accident he's currently in a coma and the doctors say even if he wakes up he'll never work again sorry about your loss go ahead and take the house we're not going to fight it and she would I would mail those to every single creditor that wrote a letter trying to collect and they wouldn't double check no how are they even going to check couldn't there be like a death or Hospital record so I never wanted to do I thought about doing a death certificate he might I did a birth certificate my fear with a death certificate was like I didn't know what they could do but I knew if if he's sick or he lost his job or like that's possible like the hospital's not going to say if you're there they don't even know where he is like he could have gone to Tampa General he could now be staying at you know whatever at St Petersburg you know Baptist Hospital like who knows so they don't know they're and they're not even if they they could find out so he is there okay they're not getting your money they don't care it's some person answering a phone one call after another you've seen them with the headphones the redials they're like look I'm just trying to put what's in the file the guy's not going to pay take the house they take the house they put it back on the market it doesn't sell three months later they drop the price doesn't sell three months later they drop the price they drop theice year a year later they're selling it for 90,000 and they're only selling it for 90,000 because by that point I've driven the prices of the whole area so I did this to the tune I did the FBI said I did 109 houses I think that's not true I I think that's I think they threw in some other properties in there that I didn't do this with you know just properties where I bought a property and I sold it to Graham or I sold it to you whatever they just threw it in there whatever they said it was $1.5 Million for that and keep in mind they also turned around and they investigated this is when it all came came uh to a head they investigated my mortgage company and they said my mortgage company had done $40 million in fraud that I was attached to her for conspiracy right like you did some you did some but because I own the place and I helped you then I'm responsible so at that point so by the time it gets to around 11 you know you know I'm I've got multiple I got a bunch of these guys going I've got Brandon green I've got James red I've got David silver I've got Lee black so I named them all so there's a movie called Reservoir Dogs in Reservoir Dogs which is a Quinton Tarantino movie all of the guys that are involved in like this bank heist nobody don't of them know each other so he everybody has a nickname so there's a guy named Mr Pink Mr Black Mr red Mr White so I thought that was cute so I put you know I got Michael White Lee black you know so I did all so everybody's got a different name how many in total how many people did you create so I didn't get to use them all so let let's say I could say 10 or 12 but I only I I didn't get to use all of them I mean if you said a million a piece if you said it was 11.5 million doar right then there should be like 11 or 12 of them but I I don't I didn't get to use all of them yeah can people still create fake identities using your method oh yeah yeah and how they not fixed it how is it still so simple it's the same thing there's got to be right but it's like fraud right like you know they could make mortgage loans so that there's no fraud in a mortgage loan right but think about how difficult that would be it would like it would slow the process down it would make it so difficult almost nobody would be able to get a house and you say we but it only be qualified people yeah but some people that aren't qualified get houses lots of people that aren't qualified get houses and they still make the payments I guess in that case too even if they wanted you to bring in a child who's to say you could bring in someone else bring any child baby and be like here's the baby can't speak or talk and like sleeping right now but like this he could be 5 years old he's still not going to do anything but sit there you know he's not but yeah I wouldn't you know listen I'm already terrified I might get arrested I'm not walking in with my three-year-old son you know and you know saying sh don't don't say anything you know just there's a certain line you know that the bar is low it's low but there's still a still bar yeah it's like okay I'm not going to do that so you're making some pretty serious money with every fake person that you would create right but I'm also you know keep in mind too like I'm not making all of this money because I have people helping me so I have other people I have mortgage brokers I have partners that are getting the property like I got a real estate agent that's going and finding these houses that meet this criteria and the houses keep getting more more expensive so we keep jacking up the price of the area too you know like I say this you know initially like we go to a guy he wants to sell his house for 60,000 and I'm like he's like uh I want 75 I'm like you had it listed for 60 like 2 months ago he's like yeah I know but I want 75 now oh forget it 3 months later you know it's we're the area is drying up right we're buying a lot of stuff and now investors are coming in buying up stuff so we go back to the guy go I'll give you 75,000 he goes yeah I want 90 90 two months ago you wanted 75 and he's like yeah I want 90 nah you're yeah it's not going to happen I'm sorry yeah good luck few months later you come back I'll give you 90 he's like yeah I want 110 where are you getting these prices from he's like have you seen what these properties are selling for that house over there sold for $230,000 yeah I know I own that house it sold for 50 I recorded it at 230 do you see what I'm saying because I was creating all these comparables people that had houses that weren't worth [ __ ] were now thinking they were worth something now they think it's worth 100,000 it's worth 50 so I was working against myself and forbes.com ended up listing the ebore City ZIP code which is a 336 65 as one of the in 2003 they listed it as one of the top 20 fastest growing ZIP codes in the nation so I mean I jacked up the price you know by the time I was done it was around 300 cuz by that point we stopped doing uh single family homes and we were doing like uh multi family homes we're doing triplexes quadplex those were recording at like 500,000 550 by that point the the FBI shows up what tipped them off like what was what were some of the flags that alerted them all the properties that had gone into foreclosure they never got tipped off not once right so we're talking about whatever 70 80 of them at this point have gone into foreclosure what year was this the 200 late 2003 okay so I've been doing it for about 18 months to 18 20 months and you know it was at like 11 and A2 and that's their number you know I don't know exactly what it I don't know if it's more or less like I wasn't keeping tabs so and keep in mind too that money everybody's like where's that money well we were also building new we were doing new construction and we're buying Lots we probably had a 100 vacant lots that we're buying cuz think about it we've driven the prices up we want to take advantage of it let's go ahead and build multif Family Properties on these on these vacant lots and that way we can pretty much get anybody in for nothing and the other units pay their rent did you ever have an unsuspecting buyer purchase one of your homes for like 200 and something Grand it was only worth 50 no it they were that bad bro like nobody would nobody's going to fall for that you know the only people that might buy one like that is somebody where maybe you pulled so much money out of it for the guy and told him to renovate it himself which is kind of like what what happened here so so I I I get to a point where I've saturated eore City so I start to run a scam with a buddy of mine in Orlando he buys a couple houses um and renovates or refinances those houses he gets a bank account we're pulling money out of the bank account and cash he's coming up every day you every couple of days he's pulling out money coming to me giving me some money making the payments on the houses and then I start running another scam with a a chick named Alison and so she buys a house and she gets multiple mortgages on that house this guy's actually got multiple mortgages too so now we're doing multiple mortgages so we're buying a house and then we're satisfying the loan on the house so if if I I go to you and I say hey I love your house can you own or Finance it to me and you say yeah you own or Finance it so I give you 10 grand down you owner finance a $100,000 house and you've got a mortgage on it we then go downtown and we create a satisfaction of mortgage a fake document saying we've paid it off we fil that with with the clerk of the court and now your mortgage is no longer it shows up but it says we took a mortgage out bought your house you gave us a mortgage and we paid it off so if somebody else searches the house they go yes he owns the house free and clear he doesn't owe anything so when they get the title search it doesn't even say your talk about your mortgage says he owns it noticed that though the bank with the mortgage that something had been filed like like is there no alert on a property that would come up where it's like hey something was filed on the property that you have a mortgage on that says the mortgage was satisfied nothing it's public records they record that's it they don't verify they don't double verify they don't notify anybody they record it in fact even if they believe there's a fraudulent document but it looks all the lines are filled out they have to file it by law they cannot and they cannot investigate it so here's something I was curious about is the do on sale Clause with mortgages so if I have this mortgage here and I sell the house to Jack my understanding is that the mortgager would have a do on sale Clause that when the home closes they get an alert and they know the home closes they don't they don't get up l so theoretically I could sell the house to Jack and just tell Jack hey take over my payments I've done that never be late and they won't know no they will never they would only know if they sent an abstractor down there to toward the mortgage now of course they do it online they could go online and they could look but even then what's the likelihood that the bank's going to for try and for close on him if he's making the payments now they technically they can why would we most banks lose 20% of the value of the of of their mortgage if they foreclose why would I foreclose he's making the payments I'll wait till he doesn't make the payments no what if though you have a low mortgage at 3% wouldn't it be in their interest to say we want to get rid of this 3% loan get it off our books assuming own it but if if it's a $200,000 mortgage and the house is worth 220 230 keep in mind they're not selling the house for 230 they're going to sell it for like 180 they're going to lose 20 grand so it's better just hey as long as they're making the payments somebody somebody's making the payments they don't care it's interesting because we had Pace morb on about a year and a half ago he was saying this du on sale Clause that most of the time he's never had the bank he said one time one out of like hundreds of properties which is unb I can't even imagine he had it once yeah yeah I can't listen I literally had when I was on the run I'll tell you this story real quick real quick when I was on the run I bought a house so I this is even funnier I bought a house from this guy Lauren in the name of a fake person right well yeah it was a homeless guy that I I'll get to it anyway we'll get there guys so so I buy this house from this guy and then he owner finances it he's actually got a mortgage on the house so I do a wraparound mortgage right so I owe him 100,000 he owes the bank 95 so I then go downtown I do a satisfaction on mortgage for Lauren and I do a satisfaction for his the loan he has on it I'm paying Lauren for like three months he stops paying them so he was going into bankruptcy that's why he was selling the house so he stops paying they start foreclosing on me my name was Gary Sullivan so I call him up I'm like bro I've been paying you what's going on this I'm in a foreclosure and he's like he's like I'm sorry I'm going into bankruptcy blah so I go down to the it's a local bank like a credit union I go down to their lawyer there a local lawyer and I go in I say look this is what's happening I show them the paperwork and they know he doesn't own any anymore they go oh you're Gary Sullivan I said yeah he said you bought it from lore I said yeah and he said um yeah he said he hasn't been paid he's been having troubles for a while he said um okay well can you and I'm like how can I reinstate the mortgage and he comes back he goes give me $3,700 so I can whatever 3700 and change boom and he says okay I said well look how can I keep this from happening again he said give me your address we're going to have them just send you uh all the payments from here on out it'll still be in Lauren's name but you just make the payments you'll be fine wow why didn't they foreclose they had a do on sale Clause it was in foreclosure they knew 100% what had happened so I'm so confused because in this market why couldn't sellers just say hey you take over my payment and 99% of the time we're going to be fine and that way new buyer just takes over the existing payment I hear I know it's still going to be in their name so if they default on that it's still up to you yeah but that's a subject RIS that's a subject to that's a subject to mortgage right you're buying the house subject to the mortgage right that's what it's called and it happens maybe not all the time but it does happen and I've never seen any any Lender ever say hey you're not the person we lent the money to we want the house back we're going to foreclose I'm making the payments making the payments like I have a hard I have a hard time believing you're going to go in front of a judge and I'm this house I'm making the payments on this house for 6 months and you're going to convince a judge to foreclose on me on a house I'm paying on I don't know that that's possible and I don't know why why they would do it why do they want to do it you know maybe I see I don't think the banks make those types of decisions because I don't think there's somebody laying in bed thinking if we forecloses on this property there's so much Equity there we could make $80,000 I don't I don't think that it's just a number it's a process they don't care that's so interesting it is interesting it's a great it's a money-making opportunity when the Market's down and people start going their for into foreclosure you can go look for those foreclosures and say look I'll catch your payments up and you just C you leave I'll catch your payments up and then you rent the property out well I'm thinking more of the times of of now where if I were to sell this house my mortgage would go from like 2.8 to 7% and so for a buyer who's buying this house to be able to pay a 2.8 not that I would do this but I'm just hypothetically you know if the buyer pays a 2.8 saves you know an extra 6% on that oh yeah yeah that would be 5% right it's huge right I was I was actually going to say someone in this market can probably already qualify for that loan but you're right they're not going to get that interest rate yeah so I I can see that see I was thinking someone's going to foreclosure you catch their payment up because really how how I deal with never mind how I this person is going to foreclosure you catch their payment up and then you just go list the property you say look I've got $6,000 into catching their payment out you go list that property you go make flyers and go to an urban club and say an urban club and you say hey for $2,000 you can take over these payments I'll take 20,000 in cash some guy's gonna come yo man what's up I got you 20 grand in cash you take the 20 grand in cash you say there's your payment booklet you transfer the deed into his name run with it you just made 20 well you got 20 plus less the 60 you just made $144,000 he'll never qualify for a loan he's a drug dealer right so not that I would do that that's a good idea but it's not not in this but really not this Market because it's not really there yet right a year from now when things start going South you know because you know how many guys I've known that they have some some they've got a woman who rents a house for them because they can't even get they can't even rent a property like you're a drug dealer you cannot even get into a decent piece of property you have to have your some friend of a friend's girlfriend rent the property and then you move in it and you you know you pay the rent but it sucks for them too like they can't they can't put in hardwood floors they can't paint it they can't do anything well this is your house but I need 20 grand in cash or 30 grand or 40 grand in cash and you are only in that position and they don't even care if they're upside down even if they were 20 grand upside down they don't care they own the house it's your house you'll never own one so you're upside down two years from now you won't be six years you won't be 25 years because you don't even have a 30-year mortgage you got maybe a 22 years left on the mortgage maybe 25 25 years you own the house well that's not a bad idea right like they they do that I could definitely talk somebody in that holy [ __ ] you don't have to be at the airport at 7:30 oh oh is it set to [Laughter] Eastern this is what happened with left by the way when we were done you know what let me run in the bathroom too for it we took a break that's we took two breaks we took two breaks and then when we were done he's like how long you think we've been talking I went oh man I said three three and a half hours you go seven and 1 half hours he trimmed it to six and a half he an hour he cut out an hour I mean I was like my wife was waiting in the lobby she'd gone to get lunch she had walked on the beach I had shut my phone off she went and got in the back of the car and fell asleep I thought she's that's it it's over it's over it funny afterwards he was like listen he said um would you mind if I mention your name to Rogan I go does anybody say no to that and I just think you guys would have a great conversation think so too find you fascinating I was like right but the truth is I know that people have already mentioned me to Rogan he actually Rogan watched my soft white underbelly yeah and talked about it on his show didn't say my name he just said I watch this one of a con man on soft white Under well I'm the only guy at that time I was the only and you know had mark on and it's just I think two or three people have mentioned him I know hundreds of people have told them in the comment section and stuff so I know they've heard my name they get in then dat obviously um and it's just I'm pretty sure at some point and I know Lex mentioned me and I've never heard anything so cuz people are like bro you got to go on on you have to go on on uh Joe Rogan but it's just not going to happen you know let let's face it like I've had a great run like honestly few months the last few months of my prison term I laid in bed every night and thought how are you going to make a living anybody that looks you up it just says scumbag scumbag like I was I honestly would have told you what's the chances of you living in someone's spare room and just writing true crime books the rest of your life I just said 90% And I thought maybe I'll get frustrated at some point and I'll go get a job after probation selling cars or maybe working for a development company or maybe like and then I got out and I mean what a 180 flip though it seems like that humbled you a lot the prison experience cuz you said you like struggled with arrogance you if you watch the the the whole podcast with Lex like there are certain things that if I even think about I'll I'll immediately tear up you know and honestly like the appreciation and humility that I suffer from is so I'm so disgusted with myself even though honestly it's not even it should be that you know I took this guy's house and I threw him into turmoil he had to go get a lawyer to get his [ __ ] house back to clear that like I should be upset about that but you know I I'm not that's where I'm like I'm sociopathic my opinion you're you know people say oh I don't care what people think like your opinion of me means about as much as that stick of [ __ ] Furniture's opinion of me like it really does I don't like when I hear people get embarrassed or upset because so and so so I don't even understand it the anger when people say in the comment section like it doesn't affect me at all I laugh were you always like that I think I've always been like that but so so but when I think about the person I was and my behavior and how I thought and even still today at least now I can see it listen bro I lived in someone's spare room for 18 months and I was happy I have been happier with virtually nothing now than I ever was when I had a million $2 million in the bank and a shitload of friends that didn't give a [ __ ] about me not one of those people cared about me the PE you know who the only people that came to prison to see me was people that I'd never done anything for high school friends guys that I had met you know that used to make it do it air conditioning for me some guy that I met one time like those are the people that kept in touch with those are like I never help this guy do anything you know this guy I made him a million dollars he didn't go to prison he didn't have any problems he made a million doll this guy has $3 million worth of properties he's still collecting money on he never did anything never answered my phone calls never wrote me a letter never returned a letter why do you think that is I don't know and and I you know I would love to say because they're all scumbags but the truth is the only correlation between any of them is me so it can't be them because if everybody says you're an [ __ ] you're probably an [ __ ] 50 people say you're an [ __ ] at some point you have to say I'm probably an [ __ ] and nobody wants to believe that about themselves so I just think and so funny too because the friends I have now are all friends I I knew in prison and it's funny because did did you ever see the town is that a horror movie no it's a it's about a bunch of bank robbers and Ben affle goes oh I did with the masks yeah okay Ben affle goes to one of his buddies and he goes listen I need your help he goes I need your help you can't ask me uh what it's about and we're going to hurt some people and the guy goes whose car are we going to take and those are my friends now if I said it's 2:00 in the morning get out of your [ __ ] bed I need to move right now they would say I'm getting my car that's it I didn't have any of those friends before because the people I thought were my friends weren't my friends and now these people that that are honestly you know horrible people they've done horrible things my buddy Pete does podcast with me I have another they never ask me for money they never say hey can you pay me back for this can you reimburse me for never and I I don't think any of my other friends ever did a [ __ ] thing for me without want to know what they were what was in it for them I got out of prison it was extremely humbling and I'd never been humbled like that before and I'd never been appreciate appreciative of anything I'd ever done in my life ever I I deserved it I'm Matt Cox bro I mean I deserve this I'm amazing that's what I thought so when you get out and you think you're going to live in someone's spare room for the rest of your life and take the bus everything started falling in place everything not because I'm brilliant but just coincidentally hey Matt you're talking about doing a a true crime podcast yeah but I don't even really know what that is because YouTube wasn't even around when I went into prison and the word podcast wasn't even invented until 2009 I've been locked up for two or for three years so by the time I get out I've heard about it and I got a buddy who says there's a guy that lives in St Pete down the street from me his name's Danny he has a podcast you should call him ask he'll probably answer some questions he talks to guys he talks to this guy Ben ma is on his program all the time you know he'll probably want you he doesn't want me I just got out of out of prison for fraud so I go I call Dany I emailed Danny Danny called me we talked on the phone for an hour I bugged him for the next three or four months while I was in the halfway house then one day he calls me says listen man I I I had I have an issue had a problem I haven't had anybody on the program in two weeks I'm running out of content I'd have to interview somebody you said if I answered your questions you'd come on the podcast at some point I was like [ __ ] I did say that so I said all right all right and I drove over there and I did the podcast and next thing you know Patrick Bet David's calling me can I fly you out to here you know to uh Houston he lived in was in Texas at that time now he's in Florida you know and then the next thing you know vlad's calling me and then the next thing you know I'm going to La and I'm doing you know this one and this one and that's it and next thing you know somebody saying hey can you come to Puerto Rico and have lunch with me and a couple investors we'll give you a couple Grand and fly you out of course why because with we saw your your we saw your thing and you're amazing and we think that you've got great insight and your story is inspiring what I just got out of prison I live in this chick's spare room she's running running a rooming house in the next spare room is a cop like what are you talking about and they give me a couple Grand and then two months later I phone out and here if you'll do a speech you know we'll give you $5,500 and then $8,000 and 3500 and then I'm doing speaking engagements and I'm like what is happening and then I publish my book and my book starts selling and then I start the podcast and then you know Colby you know that guy bro like I would never tell him this but and I joke about it with him but he [ __ ] listen and every once in a while I'll have some somebody because our deal right now guys people will say like bro you're paying him way too much way too much right and but I made an agreement and I don't think I could have gotten anybody he didn't have to work for a year he only worked for about 3 months before he hit the the the two grand but I know Colby and he to [ __ ] work for nothing for a year so so if you have an agreement you have an agreement then you know always got to feel obligated to him because I don't think anybody else would have done it I also drive him nuts you know what do you think Kobe saw in you in the very beginning why did he say yes to you he looked at the analytics I don't know look I'll tell you one thing which is probably you know an issue um is well not an issue it's probably wrong on people's part for the most part you know but for some reason despite my past um people just believe me if I tell you this is what's going to happen boom boom boom boom they believe me I don't know why I just got out of prison I got [ __ ] 40 felonies I've got I mean I got felonies you don't even know you can't even you don't even know how the what they are but yet I talk to him I explain the situation and oh well I mean I did do certain things and I did all these things that he didn't ask for if I'd said hey I want all the money to come to me but I didn't I said you're going to have to go set up a corporation and you're going to open an account and all the money is going to go to you and and I said and I'm doing that because I want you to feel comfortable that you're going to get paid he well no I I I I I I'm sure you'll pay me I said yeah I know but I'd feel better not having you doubt that and it still took him I think like a month or two to do it um you know I think he looked at the analytics and we talked and he he saw and he said hey I I think you could have something here like you're putting up nothing and you're making you're making 300 bucks right now you know and he's like I think if you if you actually interview people you'd be great and I've seen some of your podcasts and they're great you know and it did it's it's worked out really really well we did it for what about two years before it last year and a half like that is paying all my bills and then some you know I'm waiting you know I like it it everything's going great everything's going great so yeah I'm um yeah I don't I don't I think it it was just prison was such a humbling experience that you know that I absolutely deserved and had coming I don't think I deserve 26 years but I definitely deserve to go how did you how did you get to the point of prison oh I'm sorry um because as of right now through our story you had not quite gotten caught yet I think they had just gotten their suspicions you created these fake identities remember I had somebody in Orlando and I had somebody in I think it was Clearwater I'm in Tampa and they're running scams well the girl that was doing the scam in Clear Water her name was Allison and great scam we refinance the property several times she goes into a closing I'd had her change her hair because she was Rosita Perez and so she had she dyed her hair black right her hair was well lighter than either one of your hair right lighter than mine but she died at black and took a photo I make a fake ID goes into one closing fine no problem gets gets a check for like 100 Grand and then goes to the next closing signs all the paperwork but the woman the closing agent looked at her ID and said this doesn't look like you now keep in mind couple days before she had changed her hair back back to being light brown with highlights but it was still her photo does that make sense yeah it's still her so she said it just just doesn't look like you you don't look like a Rosita Perez and and even though um Allison actually said that she called another closing agent into the room and she looked at she goes yeah that's her she goes no something's not right she said I'm going to let you close I'm not going to give you a check she said I will um I'll let you know I'm going to make some phone calls she made some phone calls and contacted I don't even know to be honest exactly what she did but she got to the original owner and realized there was a mortgage on the property and of course we'd satisfy that loan so um it very quickly comes unraveled she somebody pulls their credit they see a bunch of inquiries they start making phone calls they find out she's had another closing and they put a a flag on the check we have so Alison comes out she tells me what just happened what's the scam exact it's it's just multiple closing so you're getting right the scam is she went and rented a house we satisfy his loan on the house that he has with his bank and then the the deed we just transfer the deed right I just make a new deed file it it looks like he sold her the house for 200 something thousand she then borrows multiple mortgages one of them goes through she gets the check the next one she doesn't get the check so she then gets in my car we're driving she's like this is what just happened I'm like oh that's done that's over and she's like no no we still have the one check I said yeah but we're not moving forward with it it's over you know and I get her point of view is she didn't have any money like she's going to get half this money and so she's like no no no no we got to we can go give it to Travis which was my buddy who was doing the one in Orlando and so we called Travis I explained what's going on he goes okay so you think the check's good I said no I don't think the check is good I'm but keep in mind I've got money it's easy to be cocky when you've got money so I'm saying tell him no no no he goes man listen I'm cool I'll deposit it it's not going to be a problem he go you're I remember he told me he man you're shaking like a little girl um he said calm down I said oh I don't think it's okay he deposits the check four or five days later took used to be took place four or five days for a check to clear so she he had she' endorsed it and he'd signed it so four or five days later I called him I said hey what's going on and he says listen um I was going to stop byy and get money from the bank but the bank manager called me and he told me that they needed me to endorse the check also because it's over $100,000 and I thought that's not something's wrong something's wrong with that I've deposited many many checks for over $100,000 in someone else's name and they never just had to see anybody sign so I said something's wrong don't go back to the bank and he goes no I'm pulling in right now there's nobody here there's no cops he pulls in he hangs up the phone he goes in he gets arrested I go get an attorney I get him out but I didn't get I didn't go yeah like I gave it to his brother-in-law you can here's the money so get him out on bond the next day get him an attorney Hey listen and I mean this guy he he worked me pretty good because like literally he's like look I don't obviously I can't do this anymore but I want to open up a business it's going to cost 25 Grand of course it of course Travis here's 25 Grand you're just giving him this money of he just arrested I'm my fear is he's going to cooperate yeah so you don't want to do anything fraudulent I totally get that I don't want you to you're already in trouble just keep my name out of your mouth don't say don't were you afraid of a wire though of saying anything that you wouldn't want them to know about I mean like it seems like that's a very just like a let's meet in person you lift up your shirt there may have been some of that I don't recall exactly but I wasn't too too concerned although he probably was wired but keep in mind too I'm not I don't have to be too too concerned cuz all he's got to do is open his mouth and I'm done yeah so I give him 25 Grand I buy him a truck I get him a a buoy he starts like a trim tree trimming business which he runs to this day um I'm pay in his rent I'm paying his electric he's coming in every couple every week or so saying listen I hate to ask you I need 1,500 bucks for this of course you do Travis I'm embarrassed that you had to ask let I should have offered my bad here's your is the money do not mention my name to them keep mind he's being told he's he's telling me what his lawyer is telling him is that he's not going to have to go to jail if he does maybe six months and I was like that's fine I'll maintain everything you have for as long as you're in jail but the truth is he got arrested and the next day he met with the detectives and was cooperating and they put together a task force because it's multiple um counties so multiple count I've now I'm running them running scams in multiple counties so multiple counties get together they put together a task force this goes on for months I'm still committing fraud one day and there's all kinds of stuff that happen right like I this would be forever so uh one day I a police officer that I know a sheriff's deputy comes into my office his named Steve Sutton he walks in he says um he says hey Matt can I talk to you and I I'm like yeah what's up I remember completely dressed like and I was like yeah what's up and he said um I used to date this this woman on the uh Tampa Police Department I said okay he said she's a detective and she was on a task force of the last few months and I went all right he said she just they just handed over the task force to the FBI said all right he said the task force was on you and he said do you know somebody who was arrested in Orlando and I'm like yeah he said okay she came and told me not to talk to you because the FBI is probably going to come arrest you in a few days you're already on probation his name came up because he bought a bunch of properties from me right so and he' bought some properties from some of the fake people right like they we refinanced it and then he just took over the mortgage that kind of thing because he thought hey I can turn this I can make this into something we gave him a little bit of money like they're not all going in foreclosure necessarily um or whatever or he we bought a property from him that so his name was in one or two transactions so plus i' done about a million at least a million in between he and his ex-wife $2 million worth of he knew what was going on he totally knew listen his ex-wife bought I want to say eight owner occupied duplexes we close within a day wow okay so so quick question you keep naming these people first and last right like have all of these people gone down or does any part of do do you consider like okay well you know maybe no but keep in mind too like I've reached out to Steve suton I've never heard from him I got no loyalty to you Steve Sutton used to work at the Hillsboro County uh as a sheriff's he actually has listed on my indictment as an unnamed co-conspirator it's just it's just s something yeah exactly SS I know who that is you know like it like they' be like DW Dave Walker and Dave Walker's dead by the way which is sad because I always liked Dave even though he never contacted me when I was locked up just a prick thing to do even though I wrote him letters never responded uh but I did like Dave um Dave actually died like two weeks before I went to half the halfway house he was never in in in good shape he was an older guy he was in his late 60s by the time I got out um and then other you know other people like I've seen out and I've been like hey what's going on what's it Kelly Bailey like I said a ton of bad loans and knew all of them were fraudulent and actually still works to this day as a broker um in Tampa I see her one time I'm like Kelly hey and I'm hanging out with another guy I know and and he's like Hey look it's Matt and she's like she goes hey and turn around walked away listen sister you know what I'm saying like you could have been in prison you should have gone to prison she wouldn't have done much time she'd have gotten a couple years but do you see what I'm saying it's like just because you have the veil of legitimacy doesn't mean and then it's funny too because I've had people say yeah bro you throw their aren't you afraid about uh aren't you afraid of being sued sue me I'd love to be sued I'll pull out the documents to show that everything I'm showing is 100% true I'll probably get some people in the same Pete Times or Tampa Tribune to write an article about it now you really be [ __ ] so nobody ever says anything and you know you know that like if I was saying negative things if I was saying completely wrong things about Graham Graham would probably sue me you need to shut up because this is all not correct but what everything I'm saying is 100% true so you don't hear anything interesting so the police officer was tipping you off because he was somewhat involved in he did want to protect you a little bit he did yeah I yeah which is funny that's what bothers me because I like Steve you know we would go to Steve would we overall overalls Steve was a go good old boy so he shows up he's like you know Matt like what I don't know what's going to happen what what should I do I said bro just if they ask you tell them you came to me I'm a mortgage broker you asked me to do a loan I did a loan like how you don't know anything it seems like you're talking to all these people that could be wearing wines yeah I'm I'm I I'm pretty much done I know I'm done you know I'm I'm deeply I'm already on probation like this is not going to go over well in front of the in front of my my judge like he didn't seem happy when he gave me the 3 years and I've just stolen $1.5 million while on federal probation like it's not going to end well for me Steve's like what are you going to do and I said oh I'm I'm leaving I'm leaving and same I said you heard me say I was like I can't go to prison look at me I'm adorable and this is this is 20 years ago to a guy with a life sentence I might as well be wearing a dress I have blonde hair fair skin no I can't go to prison so I I saw sha shank you saw what happened that dude's 6'2 so I take off on the Run well and with a girl that I was dating what's it like to be on the run like how do you decide to pick up and leave could you have done that just is like you get home and you like stuff a suitcase you're like we got to go right now that's exactly what I did I was the girl I was dating shows up and I'm stuffing uh a couple of duffel bags full of clothes and money cuz I probably had you I had about 80 grand at that point so in cash so I I'm stuffing it in there she comes shows up because cuz I hadn't we were supposed to go on a date like Friday night and I had hadn't called her all day hadn't returned a call and said she showed up came by my house saw my car walked inside and um and I just turned around and told her she goes what's going what's the what's going on I just told her boom this is what's happening and I'd only been dating her a couple months right not even six weeks you felt like you could trust her I didn't feel like I could trust her but what I what nobody nobody I tell right now is going to say I'm calling the cops right now they're just going to be like oh wow you got some problems and leave that's not what she said says well I want to come with you I was like we don't even know each other and she's like no you don't understand I think I'm in love with you I want to come with you I was like okay well I don't think this is ever going to become love for me I was like and honestly I have my own set of problems you know and I I always look back like I it was such a huge mistake to bring her with me why didn't you just lie to her and tell her hey I'm rethinking this relationship break yeah we got to break up um I'm in love with somebody else I'm moving out like just some story to in retrospect that's a good idea right I but you know you know how many things I change yeah you know it was it look if that's the only stupid decision that you think I've made that one thing you're missing a whole bunch of stuff so and and and I remember her AR part of her argument was listen I'm you're going to go and you're going to steal a bunch of money right I was like yeah and she said okay well I could help you and and I was and the thing is look like most people can't up and just leave that's why guys you'll give them 10 years in prison and they'll they'll turn themselves in at the gate like they'll be released and they'll show up 2 months later when they're like okay well you got 10 years in prison show up on May 13th and they'll be there you're G to go you did you just show up to get 10 years you're getting 10 years you give me 10 years you're G to have to come catch me like I'm not showing up the [ __ ] prison doesn't that make your sentence worse uh no not really you got senten they might they might if the prosecutor's pissed he might charge you and you get a couple years already doing 10 um listen I know guys that have left prison and got caught after they've escaped they got from like a camp so they don't call it Escape they call it absconding they get caught and they lose like 30 days gain time or good time like they don't even recharge them and I know met multiple people I knew one guy that caught got caught in like Italy or Spain and they just put him on the plane flew him back he lost listen he lost like 34 days good time oh my gosh and two months later he got caught stealing some two or three pieces of bread out of the chow hall and they took away 54 days 30 for the Escape he was gone for a year and a half but the year and a half but for the bread he got four 50 and I've known other guys people in the comment will say like oh I knew a guy and he escaped and he got an extra year add it on or two years you know that does happen it just depends so how often though is the people escape and they're never caught I doubt I mean I think most 99% of the time they they get caught most people don't you know this is going to sound most people don't have my skill set keep in mind by this point I've figured out how to go into the DMV as Graham Stefan and get a driver's license issued as Graham Stefan in the State of Florida South Carolina North Carolina um uh Alabama Texas you name it I I've had and I've had 27 driver's licenses issued to me in seven different states I would get tickets as people i' I've traffic school of somebody else I got so many tickets in the guy's name because you drive like a maniac when you don't care about the points so so what happens is I talk to this girl we run up my credit cards of course you know I don't want to leave any money on the table so I run up my American Express for 30 or 40 Grand we're buying we I go get another Audi I get like an Audi I think it an Audi A8 or something it's like it was a it was a four-door is that wrong what's the four-door like it's big it's got like four the six the eight it could be you do all of this as Matt Cox yeah I do but I get a paper plate it's funny they're like oh we're going to transfer your tag I said no I want a dealer plate cuz I know I got 30 days and it only comes back to the dealer so we do that we pack that car so full of stuff I got multiple computers like I don't want to spend the the the cash I have now we've got probably we got a ton of stuff in real estate and we've probably got a million or so in the bank but I couldn't get it out in time you can't just walk in and say I want $100,000 they won't give it to you so I had to have people go in and ask for 5,000 3,000 7,000 on five or six different bank accounts we could only get I only had a day a day in a couple hours to get out 80 grand so that's what I get 80 grand run up my credit cards and on Sunday night I leave I go immediately to Atlanta we rent a house from a guy named Michael eard it was like a $200,000 house I make an ID as Michael eert so I'm Michael eer now I go downtown and I satisfi the loan he had two loans with Bank of America on the house so I satisfi both of those and he didn't know about this oh no he he just made the mistake of renting to me and so basic basically they the city is under the impression or whatever like or the loan bureaus are under the impression that the loan has been satisfied although it actually hasn't and then you could borrow against it basically because what happens is when you go if I have a loan from Wells Fargo and they have a they have a lean on my house and I create a fake satisfaction of lean from Wells Fargo looks just like Wells Fargos and I record it now they mail it back to Wells Fargo but you have to understand if you pulled 50 Wells Fargo leans there'd be 50 different addresses of where they go they have so many different departments so many different banks so many different like they don't all go like they get recorded and they mail them back but they don't all go the same place so when I record that satisfaction of mortgage I just put an address to some abandoned house or to a UPS uh um or to a PO box or to whatever they mail it back they record it they mail it back Wells Fargo never gets that so they think their their mortgage is still on the house so then if I go and I apply for a loan with Bank of America they send an abstractor down there I mean really it's a title company but for Simplicity sake an abstractor goes down they look at the title they say oh look this person bought this house had a mortgage paid it off so I'm going to create an abstraction report a title report that says that John Doe owns the house free and clear so when Bank of America gets to they go oh look he owns the house free and clear yes we'll lend him $150,000 on the house but really I have a $200,000 mortgage with Wells Fargo or whoever it's still there it's just not there anymore what I do is I go to uh Michael eert I rent a house from him I go satisfy his two loans with Bank of America I then call because Michael eert has like even though I used a different social security number for him I didn't use his obviously I don't have it um so I create a profile for him um I got a couple credit cards asked him but I don't I didn't have 6 months to the credit score so you don't really have anything right I call a couple three hard money lenders each one of them comes out the house they look at the house they go yeah it's worth about 200 200,000 what do you want to do I said I want to borrow $150,000 and they go I'll lend you 150 sir so then I close on a the following Monday with one Tuesday with the next guy and maybe later Tuesday that day with the next guy so within a day or two of each other I close with all of them they're going to prepare the documents and then the Title Company's going to prepare the documents and mail those documents those mortgages to public records so it's going to take a few days for those to show up and even when they show up they just record them nobody at public records goes hey wait a second there's three mortgages on this house that's you can have three mortgages you can have a first mortgage a helck a second mortgage you can doesn't each loan say is going to be the firstage the actual document doesn't the placement of it the title company promises you with the title policy that you'll be first the document's just a mortgage so there's nothing that's going to say like who do we put as first who's second who's wow you know I don't know what it is now but it wasn't then it was just it was a lean okay right so um because let's face it if it's a second lean and then they pay off the first it become that second is now the first right so I do this I close within a couple days I get roughly 400 450,000 let's say on those on that I take that money I deposit it into the bank by this point I've now got a few real IDE s and real bank accounts and I um I start pulling that money out in cash like there's no cryptocurrency there's no you know I don't know what I probably now I realize I probably could have gone and go bought diamonds immediately or gold or something I didn't know I don't know any of that um I had to go to prison to learn all that so what I do is I know cash get cash out so I've got multiple IDs Becky has multiple IDs and we're just going into different bank accounts cash and checks 6,000 8,000 and if I she cashes a check for 6000 ,000 on my account then the bank says hold on a second like this is a new account this is weird guy's got 100,000 in the account somebody's pulled out money two days in a row so what do they do they call me hi we have somebody at the trying to cash a check for $6,000 like oh yeah yeah yeah yeah that's that's Rebecca so and so she's oh okay they cash it because it's not like I'm stealing money out of a real person I open the account and put the money there they have nobody to call so we do that we get whatever 400 some $1,000 out of the bank um we buy a new car we've obviously already bought by this point we've got a new car we took that car the Audi we left it at a police substation uh in the parking lot so somebody I'm sure got that um so we get the money out why not just keep the money you have like let's say 500 Grand and just say we could start a legitimate business on this make sure everyone's paid every month and we got a lot of money to work with right but keep in mind that I've also at some point those mortgages are going to go into foreclosure Michael eert is going to figure it out they're going to track the money so at some point I have to take it all out in cash okay I can put it back somewhere but right now I can't I need to get it out in cash so I get that money out in cash while I'm getting it out in cash uh you know there's multiple times when I got stopped I got questioned uh I actually one time went into a bank and I was in the bank and the guy he actually was trying to cash a check for $29,000 which was stupid stupid I was always under the 10,000 at one time I got frustrated I was like I'm just going to cash this one for 29 and I actually went to a a cash uh transaction Bank where they can do large and we went there and I I tried to get them to give me 29 Grand I'm sure you know um and uh they questioned me like they were really it was under the name Scott cugno and so I'm trying to cash the check and they were like well what do you need the cash for you know why don't you deposit in your own bank account like cuz my bank's in Florida and it'll take 10 days for it to go through like it's good the check is good right the cashier Che yeah yeah it's good but why do you need it I was like well I mean I cash people's checks like I work for a labor company and we have laborers and typically they get charged 10% to cash their checks but I know the checks are good because it's with my company so I just cash them and they're like oh okay you know like he keeps coming back he knows something's wrong keeps the manager keeps coming back coming back so at some point he's in the back and my phone rings and I look at it and I don't recognize the number so I I answer I go hello and the person goes hi this is Kimberly from Sun Trust Bank is this Michael eert and I'm sitting there as Scott cugno trying to cash a check and I go yes this is and it's she's she's behind like a glass somewhere and I'm sitting in the guy's like little cubicle and I'm like but I know I can you know it's it's a glass cubicle like I I'm I'm like uh yes and she says um hi we have someone here trying to cash a check a rather large check and I was just wondering if you could verify buy the you know the check and I said oh for and she said it was for $29,000 I said oh yeah yeah that would be Scott cugno and she said okay so it's good I said yeah absolutely buy all you can cash it and she goes okay thank you I said hey by the way how did you get my number the check had originally been cut from a check from a title company that we bank with so we called the title company and they gave us your phone number and I hope that's okay absolutely no problem just curious hang out the phone the manager walks out with a woman that I'm assuming was kimmerly she never said anything and they sat down and he counted out the money twice and I remember I stood up and I'm shoving the money in my in my you know pockets and he says um Mr CG now and I said yeah he said I want to mention that I feel very apprehensive about this transaction I go really what what is it exactly and he goes I I can't put my feel my my finger on it I go it'll come to you and I just walk off and so like when I I leave we got out all the money and the FBI showed up or Secret Service I think showed up like a week or two later were you concerned that your voice was the same no what do you mean like because you're answering the phone of someone else as well as speaking to them as someone else but you're use like you have this you know a very recognizable voice it never came up like first of all I talked to Kimberly right she right there that's what I'm saying she never talked I don't know if it was her like maybe she could have recognized me but she said nothing and keep in mind too most of the time I when he did he walked up and just counted out the money I've got the money at this point when I'm like what is it exactly like that's all all I said is all she heard was what is it exactly and it'll come to you so I she never said anything I just did you ever have to use different voices I've done that where they've called like if it's they're calling to verify employment which sounds silly but most of the time Becky is the one who calls back or you're calling back and it's not even the same person that you're calling right you know what voices would you use though I he would do like the whole 20 like hey you know what what's going on you know you try and throw something can we hear a few the voices I can't do the voices I can't even remember I just remember one I did a really really thick list I had a title company one time who showed up to Del so you this is see this is the problem is like you understand that typically Fanny May doesn't want to let you get out more than $100,000 with on a refi okay so what I would do is I would put a I would put a lean from A lender on some of the properties so they have to pay off this property they might give me a check for 30 grand and they would mail $110,000 to the lender to like let's say a a post office box or like a a UPS box one time the title company showed up to deliver it and then they called um they called the lender or they called me they called the lender and left a message and I had to call back as the lender so I called back with a real heavy accent yeah cuz I don't even know who I'm talking to but I knew I had gone to the closing I just you know did a whole you know yeah well and she's like well I I tried to bring you by your office and I said oh well no no I think I said we got a one of them uh mailboxes things and she's like I know I was just wondering if I could maybe bring it by the office I was like oh uh sweetie where I'm I'm out of Florida you know I'm in Orlando Florida oh oh okay so we just we just collect uh we just have everything things sent there I'm just not giving out to my you know I'm just not giving out my address to just anybody and she oh I understand I understand then that was it it was you know Silly there quick conversations it's silly I feel silly doing it and it almost never happened I typically had somebody that would call anyway the thing with the guy what's his name right like um uh the one where I get the 29,000 so we take off then I go at that point we start surveying homeless people I see the Judgment in your face Jack so we're I'm I'm surveying homeless people at this point and that happened because you know we're we're we're we're using these fake Social Security numbers for for kids right and you can't get a driver's license in the number you could get an ID but not a driver's license for some reason I don't know what the pro what what the problem is but every time I wanted to get a driver's license we couldn't get it but if you said an ID they would give give it to you so we're like we need to be able to get we need to be able to do what you're saying like start a real life as somebody and it was like well we need somebody's identity that isn't using it and so it was like okay we need to figure that out um like who and it was like well prisoners or people with mental patience you know mental patients like who how do you get to those people and I remember while Becky and I are discussing it I look over and there's a guy standing on the side of a road the road with a will workor for food sign and I went like that guy and she was like she said hobo because I know who says hobo she was the hobo and I was like yeah I've not heard that term used in a very long time so we pull over she goes into like a Subway yeah um you know sandwich shop she goes in there and she and so I go across the street and I talk to the guy and I said Hey listen man can I ask you some questions I I give him 20 bucks I said he goes yeah what's up I said um you know when was the last time you were gainfully employed so like five six years do you think you'll be gainfully employed the next year or two and he's like nah this is it for me and I said well do you have a uh you know I started just asking him all kinds of you do you have a a record do you have a driver's license is it suspended is it this all these questions gave him another 40 bucks and left and I went back to Becky and I said this I'm going to start surveying homeless people I said this guy he's got a a not even suspended it's just an expired driver's license he's never had a DUI he's just got he's just an alcoholic like that's he lives in the woods you know that's what what he told me so during that conversation the reason I came up with the survey was he actually made a joke he or not it wasn't a joke he he what are you doing a survey and I go I said you get a lot of surveyors out here and he goes well sometimes we get social workers people from the Salvation Army and I thought nice nice okay cool like good to know so I go back home I make a statistical survey form it's got like 17 questions asked for your name date of birth social security number mother's made name County and state you were born in what identification have you ever had issued you ever had a passport you ever served in the military you ever had uh claim Social Security Social Security Disability do you currently receive any benefits you know boom boom boom boom anything I could think of that I might need I make print out 50 of them put them on a clipboard make myself a little salvation or make myself a little badge that said um statistical surveyor took my wanted photo printed it out glued it on ran it through a laminate little laminate machine I had you know put a little had a little clip thing on it very professional went out and started surveying homeless people I would get their information I would go back find you know wherever County they were from I would print out an application for a birth certificate and I would fill it out one of the things they asked for is a copy of his driver's license well I would make a driver you know you go into you know you you make a what looks like a driver's license it's not but I'd make one that looked like a driver's license make a copy of it mail it to them with 20 bucks and I get a um certified copy of their birth certificate i' then take I'd make a fake employer ID and I would mail that plus an ss5 form to Social Security and i' get a i' get a copy of his social security number so I've got a social security number his birth certificate I would register to vote in his name I would um order a copy of his high school transcripts I would get a couple credit cards in his name he has almost no credit or maybe a couple medical bills which I paid off and then I'd turn around and I'd go into the local DMV and I'd say hey I want they you they want two forms of idea they want a primary two secondaries and proof of residency I have that I have a because I would make a fake lease agreement plus the other thing that counts for that is if you register to vote as them in that county shows residency so I've got this this this your birth certificate and they go great stand over there get a picture taken you got a driver's license sometimes I'd have to take the test um sometimes they would have their license was suspended and I'd have to pay four or 500 bucks to get their license unsuspended I have to mail the the money off for States away wherever they' have had a driver's license and I go in as long as they didn't have a driver's license in that state I could get a driver's license so I got a driver's license I got more credentials than this guy's got on him I can go open bank accounts I can buy houses I would buy a car so you are more this person than this person actually is he couldn't if you had approved doc he couldn't provide anything and I know everything I know where you were raised I know which High School you were one of the questions was what high school because one of the things people don't realize is part you can use for secondary identification your high school transcripts there's all these things and I've got all real stuff so none of this is fake I buy a car in his house in his name I buy a house in his name so the I I did this with whatever a couple dozen people at least at least and this one guy Gary Sullivan I went to North car I was living in North Carolina I went to South Carolina and I bought two houses in his name one of them I I bought a house for 200 like I want to say like $230,000 let's say put 10% down convince the owners to owner finance it to me and right after the closing two weeks later I went down to public records I satisfied their loan and the wraparound loan cuz they did a wraparound around their mortgage around their original mortgage satisfied both of them I then turn around and I borrow I also bought another house for like 110,000 so I borrow $1.3 million on both these houses I open a bunch of bank accounts and I start pulling money out of these Banks I refinanced this one house over and over again and it's funny cuz this isn't on the bigger house this is on the house that was 110,000 as I was refinancing it one of the title companies made a phone call or they called another the original title company to get the warranty deed because they wanted to issue a you know you know they can reissue title they only have to search back to the last and I just bought the house somehow or another they call to get the original HUD the HUD I had given them showed that I paid cash they get the original HUD it shows there's a mortgage so they know the document I gave them was false like I couldn't account for them calling the title company so I was like oh my God so they end up calling Washington Mutual they call Washington Mutual they tell Washington Mutual who had the first mortgage on it now keep in mind by this point they've also done a search Washington Mutual knows that they're in second position they know there's a mortgage ahead of them so the they have a lawyer for and this isn't the first time I've been called by a lawyer sure so I called so Gary Sullivan's phone rings I'm in wherever I'm in Charlotte North Carolina the phone rings and he's like hey you know this is whatever you know Todd I'm a you know lawyer with uh Washington Mutual I'm like uh yeah Todd what's up he's like uh we were contacted by this title company they discovered our Lo loan on the property there's another Mortgage in front of ours and we're supposed to be in first position and I went okay and he said this is an issue so I'm wondering how this happened and what we're going to do about it before I contact he go he go and as he's talking I said you haven't contacted anybody the authorities yet have you and he goes no not yet but that's my next call unless we can figure something out I said you know what Todd I said listen let me go to my I'm going to go right now I'm gonna talk to my lawyer I have a corporate lawyer which was in South Carolina let me call him I'm going to call you back I can pay you back I said if I pay you back we don't need to this doesn't need to go any further does it he goes you can pay me back it doesn't have to go any further I said okay I said give me an hour hang up the phone call my corporate lawyer while I'm you know driving all the way back there um Becky's don't go don't go and I'm like I'm in the middle of a multi-million dollar scam I'm going like I'll pay give him a 100 she's like let's just keep the money I'm I'll give him the 110,000 we've got 700,000 800,000 still in the bank right so let me just pay him off how do you know they won't call they won't call I've done this before and I've done it in Tampa I've been caught multiple times just paid them back so you know I didn't get into those um so I drive all the way back I get a my called my corporate lawyer because they had opened up a corporation where I was laundering money through opening bank accounts so I call him and he says okay listen he said my partner is a criminal defense attorney so I'm going to set up a meeting real quick by the time you get here we'll both meet meet with you I said okay so I meet with them I walk in I sit down I say hey they go okay Gary what's going on I said here's what's happening I tell them I bought this property in this property I bought this property I've got like five mortgages on it I forget how it might have been four or five I said Washington Mutual just figured out that there's a mortgage in front of them and they want me to pay them off and he said okay well you said there's also a couple mortgages behind them too and I said yes but they don't know about those they go okay so can you pay off the first mortgage I said yes but I need you to call him and get him to say to say that this is in writing that they're not going to contact the authorities that this is he well why would they it's a creative financing error I'm pretty sure it's not yeah what did you tell them the reason was did you just pretend like I don't know what what going on this I told him that the Brokers I always tell them like like look I went into the bank and the broker said look I can I told him I need to borrow like half a million dollars because I was flipping properties he said I can get you half a million it might have to go through a couple different banks but I have some buddies we can all get you mortgages said I I kind of knew it was [ __ ] up I said I I knew but look let me I just want to get out of this and they're like okay well we're it's a creative financing error you didn't know what you were doing you're not a mortgage broker you're not a professional let's just pay this guy off I said okay he calls up he says listen Todd um you know Gary said he can pay you off he said okay I said okay I'm going to go to the bank and get how much is it exactly and we haggle over it because they wanted to charge me like and I actually paid everything like I didn't haggle but my my my lawyer is like oh he shouldn't have to pay that he shouldn't have I'm like [ __ ] just what are you doing I don't care he's you know he's like oh says something about there's um there's yield spread on the back [ __ ] pay it like he's like all I end up paying whatever 110 115,000 so I go to the bank and I get the money I come back there and they're like tell them to drop it off at a Wells Fargo no at a Washington Mutual Bank I said bro I'm not doing that are you [ __ ] crazy I'm not going to go into they're gonna call the cops like no I'm not gonna do that I'll give it to you and he goes okay he calls him back I have it I'll just I'll send it I have it I'll send you a copy he make I'll make a copy and fax it to you okay so we're we're done with that and I'm like I remember he said um well okay well Gary we got a problem here I said what's that he said well this was actually before I went to go get the money so once I said okay let me go get the money he goes well wait a minute there's an issue you've still got multiple mortgages on these this property after you pay them back he I said right he said do you have the money I said yeah I have the money he said okay well we're going to have to pay these back I said no no no I'm not going to pay them back and he goes well what if they find out and I go he goes what if they find out that there's other mortgages these other mortgage lenders find out that there's other mortgages on the property I go then I leave town and he goes Gary Gary Gary he said you can't just leave town they've got your name your social security number your date of birth he said the FBI will find you and I go you're assuming my name is Gary Sullivan and I mean they weren they both look at each other and he goes well um uh I guess we'll we'll cross that bridge when we come to it I write I go my immediately problem is getting rid of these people let me go get the money what type of lawyers are these that would take on this like a better call SA sort of like like little town smalltime lawyer in Columbia South Carolina but they're cool with it or they're like I wouldn't say they were cool with it but they're also not going to their client in he can't call up and say my client he's not going to do that he's already saying it's just a creative uh a creative error a creative financing error like he's already downplaying it so I go I get the money come back give him the money he makes a copy he sends them a fax he tells them he's overnighting it they're happy um and I remember got up to leave and the guy goes well I didn't go get up to leave but he said uh listen he said we need to talk about my my fee I said okay you've worked about an hour I said how what is it what how much is that and he said uh I think, 1500 would cover it I said okay no problem and I get I start count pulling out cash and he goes well we don't take cash and I go you take a check from me after what you just heard and he goes I'll take the cash and I thought I gave him the cash got up and left oh my gosh um kept pulling out money ended up pulling out that scam like 6 or 700,000 and one day I walk into a bank as Gary Sullivan and uh uh two sheriff's deputies walk up behind me and handcuff me and so they handcuffed me in the bank and I'm like [ __ ] and they go Mr Sullivan we're detaining you um come with us and they walk me and listen the bank there's like lines there's like 2030 people in the bank like what the [ __ ] so they walk me into the manager's office they sit me down they say we're waiting for the detective to show up I thought it was the FBI was going to show up you know because I don't really know the difference between an agent a detective like I don't the terms that I say and I know now I didn't know then right so I remember thinking FBI showing up and listen by this point there's been 30 articles 30 40 articles on me you know they rided my office FBI rated my office when I left when I got the 400,000 in Atlanta there's a bunch of Articles of secret services is after me like it's it's it's heating up there's there they John John and Jane Doe warrants they're calling us the Bonnie and Clyde of bank fraud I mean it's you know it's it's you know the post she's a poster child for identity theft I mean it's like it's heating up so I I end up waiting there and the detective walks in he's like like a gray suit he's probably his late 20s and he walks in and he says hey uh Mr Sullivan you know he sits down he said here's what's going on uh wacovia Bank says that you're committing you're you're doing something called a shotgunning scam and that you borrow the money so fast that they they couldn't catch it and now you're removing the money in cash why are you removing the money in cash and I was like why I and I explained to him about I cash checks for these guys that work at the company I work for and it's a labor company and by this point I said look can do I have to have the cuffs on am I under arrest he's like oh no no we're just inh handing you I said well I feel like I'm under arrest he goes oh we'll take those off take some off so when I say I work for a labor company I pull out my business card and he says okay and he says um I said I cash a lot of these guys check so I said also a lot of these guys I'm flipping houses I buy houses and fix them up he go oh yeah yeah that's right you own another house on on Shady Lane or whatever I'm like oh [ __ ] um and he's like yeah I said you're right so we just had a new roof put on and you know the Mexican guys like they want to be paid in cash I said you know how it is he's like right right well I know have this is why I pull out a lot of cash I said I'm I you know but I'm I'm you it worked perfectly because I said I'm flipping properties so I need these L these loans and so he gets W head of wov his fraud department and this is a guy from California and he's you know he's running a shotgunning scam he's got multiple first mortgages and I explain well wait a minute I read those mortgages none of those are first mortgages I said the one from wacovia was a first mortgage but then I and I he I had like six mortgages but he only found three he only discovered three of them and so I said I mean walk and he saidwell why do you have three mortgages even though this guy is saying they're all first mortgages and I'm like they're not first mortgages bro I said I came to wacovia I asked for a first mortgage the the loan officer got me a first mortgage I told her that I really need to get $3 $400,000 because I'm flipping a bunch of properties um you know on the side uh he goes okay I said and she said I can get I've got a friend that can get you a second mortgage so she sent me over to Sun Trust Bank or whatever it was you know I forget it was like Fieldstone mortgage Fieldstone mortgage got me a second mortgage the person at Fieldstone said look you know your credit's good you're you're eligible I could probably get you a helck I got a friend at Sun Trust I can get you a helck so I said Okay cool so she calls over to her friend and gets me a helck I said they all knew about it guy from wacovia screaming this is that's not true they're all first mortgages I said man I read those documents not one I said you can't show me One Mortgage that says it's the first mortgage said I read those documents and so he's screaming and hollering and so why is he pulling the money out in cash I explain that why is he got multiple bank accounts I said I have a couple corporate accounts in my corporation's name and I have two two bank accounts like what's the problem like he's coming up with all these things and I said look bro I said what makes more sense that a a guy who works for a labor company figured out how to how to defraud three major Banks out of half a million dollars or a bunch of loan officers figured out how to get me half a million so they could make a broker fee and he goes and I go I think they got a problem at the bank and he goes yeah I think you guys have a problem at the bank and they oh my God screaming holler he goes he said I think you know I'm GNA bring him downtown have him sign some paperwork he goes wait a minute look at his ID it's a fake ID I had had the ID issued from the DMV at South in South Carolina he go look at the ID it starts with 00 now he's from he's from California so this guy says listen I'm sorry he said this is a real South Carolina ID I've already run it and I've run him through uh ncic this is this is Gary solivan and I go bro what now I'm not Gary Sullivan what the [ __ ] are we doing here and he goes I know Gary I know this guy's losing it he tells him I'm going to bring him downtown I'm going to talk to the district attorney see if he's even broken a law I don't even think he's brok he I don't even know if he's broken a law hangs up the phone um they follow I follow them downtown the detectives in front of me the sheriff's car is behind me you know I feel like they're escorting me but he may have just been going that way because when I turned he didn't turn in they just kept going so you know I go and but when as I'm going Becky has called like 30 40 times I was in there for 30 45 minutes you know one getting rested or handcuffed then waiting for the guy to show up then talking to the so she's called over and over so when I get the phone she's like oh my God where the [ __ ] have you been she goes they just listed you as number one on the secret Services most wanted list an article just came out and go listen I got bigger problems so I was just handcuffed in a bank I'm on my way to the on my way to the Sheriff's Department right now or Police Department whatever it was and she's like oh my god get on the get on the get on the interstate and run I said I can't there's a cop behind me cop in front of me I'm not going to outrun you know a helicopter I'm not an I'm not an indie driver like it's not going to happen like I'm I've all those you've seen all of them in badly um so I pull out I said look I can do this I I was in handcuffs 10 minutes ago I can talk my way out of this and I said the worst that'll happen if they arrest me they'll arrest me as Gary Sullivan my identity won't be in question because at that time if you had an ID unless your identity was in question they didn't run your fingerprints they fingerprinted you but they didn't run you through aphis so I said you can get me out go get me a lawyer she go I'm not getting you a lawyer I'm not getting you out on bond she goes I'm not risking everything I've got she had like six 700,000 in cash and I was like holy holy [ __ ] so I said well then I guess I better not get arrested she's like get on the interstate I said no I I'm not going to do that so I hang up the phone I go in the police station I fill out a police report I'm standing in the hallway cuz at first I was in his cubicle but he had to go get his liutenant to sign off on it right so he says Gary I can't leave you in my cubicle or my office whatever it was wasn't an office it was a cubicle but he said can you wait in the hallway I go sure so I walk in the hallway and my secret Services most wanted poster was in the hallway cuz the Secret Service was actively looking for me in the FBI I'm just this is a warrant like they're not Secret Service is mailing stuff out I remember I saw it it was among a bunch of other a bunch of other um uh wanted posters you know like bike thieves you know car thieves burglars and there's mine and mine was the only one that was in color which is the only reason it even stood out um but you also have to think too by this point I'd had plastic surgery right like I'd had two hair graphs I'd had a nose job I had a uh what they called it a mini facelift I had my teeth done and this was all on purpose to disguise yeah I mean somewhat or was it no I mean I vanity I don't I mean obviously I think it's it's probably a probably a combination it gave me an excuse to do it okay right like I'd never done it before but it's something I'd always thought about and this certainly gave me a reason to do it so you know Becky had had a bunch of stuff done um so you know and we're listen we're we're going to Mexico we're going to Jamaica we're we're we're traveling all over the place you know we're we're blowing money we're acting like a bunch of of of idiots so he walks me out the cop walks me out of the police station I get in my car he actually tells me listen we have we do have some questions do me a favor don't leave the area I said where am I going to go come on I own two houses here I'm flipping I'm not going I haven't done anything wrong he goes okay I go straight to two more Banks pull out some money jump on the interstate and immediately go back to Charlotte North Carolina I pack up all my belongings I get a U-Haul Van I drive all the way to Texas where Becky is at this point we go to Houston we get into a huge argument we split up the money when I say split up the money she got five or 600,000 and she gave me $100,000 her argument was that I could go and I he say in two months from now you'll have a million dollars I have to live on this money the rest of my life and it was a huge scream right which makes sense like she's not a fraudster she didn't even try um and you know juggling all the different things that you're juggling like she wasn't any good at it so I leave we and it was huge horrible fight like hu yelling screaming and she was a menace anyway she'd had the cops called multiple times in the middle of the night she was bipolar she'd get into the we get into these huge screaming matches and i' I'd bolt like I'd grab a bag and just bolt because I knew it's 2 o'clock in the morning you're screaming your head off cops are coming did you always attract this psychos it does seem right I'm just I'm just noticed picking up on a pattern here I don't know if that was like something yet my yet my um my wife now is I mean she's not a pushover she's very quiet very shy um I mean my fear is she probably she's she's the kind you really have to worry about you know like she' just kill you um there wouldn't be a big argument um and she can do it too like she's a hunter like she's like she goes alligator hunting she hunts Hogs like she's she's a Florida a deep Florida girl yeah yeah she's and she's told me like they'll never find your body just letting you know so rtic um yeah like I mean for date night one time we went to okobe and we went uh alligator hunting you know like we're definitely two different people so anyway so I'm a little bit scared of her um so anyway um so I go there we get into an argument I drive that U-Haul B all the way back to Charlotte I get my car I have no ideas because we had unpacked the entire thing before we got in the argument so all my stuff's in a storage unit including my IDs cuz we were just going to lay low for a while wait for this thing to hit we know that's going to hit you just got caught in the bank you got arrested brought downtown convinced them you've done nothing they let you go there's going to be an article at least one and there was so we're like we're just going to lay low so I put everything in we put everything in storage we get into a huge argument she gives me 100,000 I drive all the way back I actually called the FBI agent called some friends uh in Tampa just to see how things were going um you know called my mother called my ex-wife uh called just some Brokers and they one of them said you need to call the FBI agent she said if I ever talk to you to please let have you call her she's like Matt maybe you can turn yourself in maybe you could just get a few years like you know you know and I probably could have got a few years prob I would have had to turn her in um you know and everybody else um and I was still on this just that complete you know delusion that I didn't want to tell on anybody so I do call the FBI agent I talk to her couple of times on the phone on my way back to Charlotte how do you know they're not tracing the call they were tracing the call yeah I didn't know that like I sto you know I here I stopped and I got a burner phone right you stopped at like a a gas station you said yeah I'll take a you know a neck uh what was it Nextel sure is there still nextt around I think it was pretty sure they got bought out by somebody so it was like a nextt I get you know you pay the 50 bucks or 20 bucks and I turn it on and then I called a bunch of friends and one of them was like call the FBI agent cool so I was like [ __ ] all right so I called and the the problem was she's saying look you come you cooperate you'll get like seven years for Tampa not Atlanta not this thing in Charlotte I sorry in Columbia South Carolina which she doesn't even know about yet you know that still hasn't hit yet it's only been a few days so I realized like I'm looking at 14 years and I don't want to I don't want to tell on anybody and I don't want to do any of that so I was like yeah I'm not going to do that we basically she also kind of realized she was lying to me about a few things I I'm saying like I'm not going to do that so I throw the phone out the window I drive all the way back to Charlotte I get my car and I think I had an affinity G35 like they just come out super great car right was a great car it had like 360 horsepower like it's like a badass car who were you at this point the only ID I had was Michael eert still I'd be honest with you it wasn't even Michael eert I I stole a guy this is not good I stole a guy's ID his identity got a North Carolina driver's license in his name and then legally had his name change from eert to to Johnson Michael Johnson why did you change his name I wanted to see like I was trying to come up with a process where I could alter an identity so much that I I could that if the person like died or something like it wouldn't catch up with me and I don't and I realized after doing some of those things I realized like it wouldn't catch up to me right like my fear was if I reestablish my entire life as one of these homeless people and the homeless person dies what's going to happen I don't know what's going to happen does suddenly you know does Social Security get how would they identify the homeless person who dies if the homeless person has no identification at all maybe they've been arrested they fingerprint them maybe they I don't know but I do know I didn't want it to catch up with me so if I alter the name and then maybe I go back in I try and get a new social security number issued then how do if I start claiming taxes on a social security number that was issued to a child is that going to work like I had some issues so I'm trying to work these things out it's complicated right like I don't quite understand it but I'm just trying I'm really curious about this Michael eert guy has he ever reached out to you since and is he still Michael Johnson listen there's a guy there's a few guys that are named Matthew Cox that I've traded some emails with like I'm like listen bro I'm so sorry he's like Bro you've no [ __ ] idea how many problems you've caused me he's like jobs girlfriends friends and I'm like I said listen if you want to call me up and just ream me out and tell me what a piece of [ __ ] I am I said I totally have it coming I have no I said here's my phone number he said nah bro don't worry about it this guy forwards my emails because people email me my my email it's like contact. matthew. Cox his is matthew. Cox gmail.com so people will accidentally email him he forwards them to me he's a genuinely nice guy but you imagine people look them up and see that this is not the same person maybe like that seems common sense that people sh I bet there's a lot of Jack sel's out there there's the Jack Selby actually was one of the founders of PayPal really yeah nice see there we go that's that's a that's something that when it happens it looks good for you I don't think anyone's mistaking well I'm just curious so Michael eer has not reached out to you no cuz he was just like a normal guy he had he he was R house applied no no uh Michael eard applied for uh applied for a mortgage loan see one of the things I would do to steal identities is I would run you know one of course I made the fake IDs sometimes I'd survey homeless most people but sometimes I just run an ad cuz it was a building first it was synthetic identities then it was running ads you know I skated like listen this story goes it's years this has been years so you know you can imagine there's tons of stuff I've left out if I honestly wanted to give a a Shameless plug for my book I go over all of it in my book link yeah it's on Amazon but like I can't do that here you know I don't want to do a you guys don't want me to do a six- hour podcast I'm just surprised that no one has reached out to you because now obviously all of your interviews have gone so viral you know your book sells well all of this stuff keep mind most of these people are homeless but but also or they either don't exist they're homeless or there's a few people that I've stolen their look you know the guy Scott cugno yeah I've reached out to him because I knew Scott cugno like I had his I did a loan for him so that's why I had his information when I left Tampa I've reached out to him he's never once a matter of fact a friend of mine that knows his wife because I thought well maybe he maybe he didn't like you know you you send it through Messenger on Facebook like maybe he didn't get it and so his wife actually told a friend of mine no no Matt Cox has reached out to Scott several times he just doesn't want to talk to him like I get it what am I gonna say like it's not like he's got a bad reason he's got a genuine reason you know why I mean you know I'd like to apologize you know but he didn't want to hear it I think we'd have a good laugh about it so what happens when you went on a run so what ends up happening is um I go into that I so I get my car I drive across the street to Starbucks because I feel like I'm good I got my car I Dro I I dropped off the U-Haul I got my car and I thought let me get a coffee real quick while I go to Nashville Tennessee CU I was decided I was going to relocate in Nashville and um so I go in the coffee place I order a you know a a from Starbucks I order a coffee and there's two people from my apartment complex that are there and they're like looking at me and they're like you having this hush discussion and the female um uh apartment person gets up and leaves so the guy's just standing there he gets his tray of coffee he's standing there in the little foam tray I get my coffee I walk outside he follows me get my car start my car he's standing on the sidewalk I start my car playing with the thing put the seat belt on I look I'm about to pull out and all of a sudden he starts screaming he's there he's right here I look over and there's two guys running towards the back of my car and you know like business attire and I thought they were FBI or secret service but I got my Freedom of Information Act and it was actually the US Marshals so two Marshals had gone and had just interviewed those two people and they walked across the street to Starbucks to get their coffee that's why so this is terrible timing this is bad timing so luckily I had Omar check I was actually about to pull out when he started screaming I just boom hit it Voom drive straight off you know couldn't couldn't you say I think you're mistaking me with somebody else and show an ID no I mean I no first of all I didn't really have the only idea I had at the time was the the Michael Johnson right right and I'm driving a car I was driving a car as Michael Johnson yeah so I was curious to say I don't know who these people are mistaking me like they seem crazy this is go through that okay you know I just punched it I drove down the street about half a mile to a mile and were a couple of uh clean or not clean cut but there were a couple of white guys that were homeless I pull over immediately pull my half a mile to a mile away there was like a homeless shelter they call the dog pound and I see these guys sitting outside there's like three of them and IOP whip around jump out with my thing said hey um would you guys like to take a survey real quick it it pays 20 bucks cash right now um they're like H you 20 20 bucks right now I just need take we'll take the survey Tak 5 minutes yeah all right what's up take their information jump back in the car drive to Nashville I end up ordering all the documents for well all three of them but one of the guys name was um was Marian Joseph Carter Junior and I went by Carter so as Carter I immediately get an apartment 3 four months later I dated for three or four months just to kind of see what was going to come out in the newspaper you know like I don't want to start kind of lay low 3 4 months later I said ah [ __ ] it I'm okay okay there was a bunch of Articles um about me getting caught in the bank and so I start buying houses for $670,000 in an area called JC Napier just outside of Nashville the city of Nashville I start buying these houses recording the value at 200 210 190 I start the whole process over over the next year I pull out about four three and a half to $4 million maybe four and a half I forget what the paperwork says um so I pull that money out I start building some new houses I get a girlfriend we move into a house everything's good I got a few identities what do you tell the girlfriend for your past I mean the girlfriend figured out she figured out that obviously something's first of all it looks odd like I talk about my parents but I never talk to my parents talk about my son I never talk to my son I talk about my my brothers and sisters and friends I never talk to him she's never seen me make a phone call she's never seen me get a phone call from anybody that I don't know in Nashville M there's nothing in my house cuz this is trust me this is the argument we had it wasn't an argument she was like there's nothing in your house that is more than four or 5 months old nothing there's no photos all your Furniture's brand new everything's brand new and she goes and the other night when you asked me to go downstairs and get you a popsicle I said yeah she goes she goes I opened up a popsicle box that had3 or $40,000 in it in cash and I was like oh yeah okay there's some problems so I basically said look I'm not going to to tell you what who I am but I said I'm I'm I'm wanted like what I really had initially had told her was I owned a mortgage company in Tampa and I got bought out by Household Bank and I had no compete calls for three years so I have another year or two before I could do anything and I'm just going to start flipping houses which makes sense but the other stuff doesn't make sense didn't you just said I lost it in a fire come up with the story yeah I mean I mean I guess I could have but I didn't okay you know you get to a point where you just like it are hard to keep so if you're going to build a whole little scam around a bunch of Lies that's fine I only have to maintain these for a few months to get the money and leave but this chick I want in my life her name is Amanda um so and keep in mind she's it's like how often how much lying do I want to do yeah so it's like look and she's got me she knows something's wrong so I said look cuz she was saying she had talked to her mom or dad and one of them said he's probably in the witness protection program which would have been great right I should have said that but I didn't so oh her mom thought I was married she was she your mom saying he's married Dad saying Witness Protection Program they relocated him here I tell her look I'm wanted and she's like wanted by who and I said like all of them I said like FBI Secret Service everybody FDLE Georgia you know like everybody and she's like okay she said for what I said nothing violent like it's like fraud and I said I'm reestablished she's like yeah but it doesn't even make sense she's like I mean everybody knows you you know people here like every like it'll catch up to you I said well that's another thing I said one of my charges is identity theft and she's like what do you mean I said well I'm I'm not Joseph Carter I said so don't look to see who I am if if I ever hear you utter my name I'm leaving and she said okay like she's deeply in love with me you know of course the fact that I bought her a brand new car and she's now got a chunk of money in the bank I'm not saying that helped I'm not saying she was a gold digger that's not true I liked a man that she was a decent person but she was also suddenly doing very well right dating me doesn't financially harm anybody so you get it you look you very judgmental very for person that I've never seen scowl or judg his resting face is a SC this is for me like uh watching a movie oh okay they need to turn this into a movie think I already optioned my life right so I already been to La I've had those meetings um so we're working on that uh after about a year and a half cuz it's been about a year and a half over a year with a man you know and we've gone everywhere we've gone to to to um to Italy uh Croatia we've gone to you know on you know the Greek Isles like I've I've you know we're traveling her parents have met me it's a great relationship not as good of a relationship as my current wife of course so um Kobe will make a [ __ ] video that will be a short by the way go for it so it was a good relationship and so what ends up happening is she does end up and finding out who I am one day our corporate attorney called cuz I had opened up a corporation uh to start building these houses it's a development company I had built a website saying that this entire area was being revitalized and they were tearing the projects down totally untrue I had these banners on every house that said Nashville restoration project that was the name of the corporation and that's all in in her name so at some point I'd sent something to a corporate attorney she sent me an email I said hey I sent this to the corporate attorney she said she never got it can you please go on my go into word print out the document and and uh email it to her she goes on to word and she sees letter to mom and dad which is a letter I'd written the day I left explaining to my parents what was happening so she clicks on it George and Margaret Cox Matthew Cox address she looks up Matthew Cox boom bank fraud fraud mortgage fraud you know secret Services Most Wanted FBI she spends I honestly I don't I I I didn't even know there were this many articles like you know how you get hit the history bar I mean w it was like woo woo I mean she spent all day wow reading so when I get home I go to turn off my computer and you know how you go to close things out and I saw that word was open I go to close out word and the last you know the last thing that's open shows up and boom later to Mom and Dad and I thought I hit the I hit immediately hit the the um history bar I thought oh my my God what has she done I go in and I'm like what did you do she's like nothing I got Outback like I I'm like no no no no no not dinner what did you do and she's like what are you talking about I said I said I just hit the history bar boom immediately starts crying oh my God I I I I'm sorry I love you so much I I I wasn't trying to pry it just I saw the letter from Mom and Dad from your mom and dad I I I I'm so sorry please don't please don't leave please don't leave so we have this huge crying you know thing for the next hour or two and she begs me to stay and you know and I was in love with her like you know people do stupid things for love and so I stayed and I stayed and things were good up until we found out that dat line uh was coming out so there was an episode of dat line coming out dat Line's coming out she she cuz now she's searching me constantly right every time an article comes out she's like an article came out I'm like Jesus like I'm not even looking and so there was an article in Fortune Magazine she read it there's an art couple articles in Bloomberg Becky gets caught she gets arrested boom Becky got caught for she had told her mother that she was in Houston one during one phone call another phone call she had said that she had paid for um like uh whatever the cosmetology to cut hair she was in school for cosmetology her mother called the uh called the uh U or Secret Service or FBI and told them she's in Houston at a cosmetology school cuz her mother was very much a drama queen just like Becky and she like I just want you to be safe and so she called and told her you know and I'm sure she was doing she thought she felt like she was doing the right thing I get it like she's afraid that you know you know but in her mind he's with this psychopath this guy might kill her like in her mind she really drummed up this insane thing so they end up coming in one day and they grab her at the uh um at the cosmetology school so she gets busted like all these things are happening and then one day we find out dat Line's coming out and so it's like okay an article in Fortune Magazine big deal I don't know anybody that reads Fortune Bloomberg I don't I'm hanging out with construction workers you know like you know people that have regular jobs like nobody reads this nobody's going to recognize even if they saw me they wouldn't recognize me so I'm not that concerned you know articles in Tampa in Chicago and like this is where these articles are coming in like Chicago Tribune did a whole series of Articles called The Fugitive okay so what nobody's nobody in Nashville is reading this and the internet is in its infancy M right this is in 2006 late 2006 YouTube Facebook had just been invented you know like Amanda was on on MySpace yeah so I'm not that worried but dat line there weren't 190 channels back then there were there were still like 40 20 and people only watch six of them dat line is something people watch my fear was even if I up and moved the day before Dateline and was on the you know kind of in transition and laid low it doesn't matter dine will be re-aired in three months and then two months and then a year and a half and then it doesn't matter someday I'll reinvent my life and one day the Barista at Starbucks will be watching TV and be like that's John Thomas he comes in every morning and gets a vinty vanilla latte huh I'm going to call somebody and they call and I walk in to get my coffee and boom there's a cop standing three FBI agents or secret servic like I I I got to leave the country so we decide we're going to go to we're going to go to um Australia Australia at that time if you showed up with like $200,000 on a business plan they would allow you to stay as a a permanent resident alien you could buy property you can open a business you cannot take a job as an offi you cannot vote I don't care about voting I don't care about taking a job I'm going to show up with a couple million dollars and just start a business I can buy real estate rent out the properties sounds good to me while we're doing this we're having guys cash checks we're getting cash getting cash getting cash and um Amanda ends up telling a friend of ours a girl friend of ours she tells her who I am because she asked her to cash a bunch of checks and I'm pretty sure that sparked a conversation why are you cashing $30,000 in checks so I'm pretty sure that's what sparked the conversation although I don't know but regardless she found out who I was she contacted the Secret Service Secret Service watched the house for a few days one day I come home boom they pull up get on the ground get on the you know you've seen the movies just like that threw me on the on the ground picked me up that's it I was arrested didn't didn't initially had a little discussion about whether I was me one guy's like I don't think this is this is him I wasn't saying anything at first but then when they said you're no this is Matthew Cox you are Matthew Cox right I was like yeah like I'm I'm not even like I know done why did this time feel different versus it was just I'm in handcuffed there's so they've got my they've got my photo my wanted poster they've got my name they're right here like I was never that close before so they take me downtown I get moved to Atlant the short version is I get move to Atlanta um I end up getting uh I get senten to TW the short version is I get sentenced to 26 years um and you know while I'm incarcerated I end up getting my sentence reduced tce tce so I don't know if you have any specific questions I don't know the lawyer that how long you want this to go the lawyer you used was was amazing the story Oh you mean oh I was going to say my public defender um which she was actually a very nice person like I didn't give her any there's nothing she could have done um no so yeah so what happened was I I went to prison and well okay so when I get arrested I cooperate obviously I tell them you know like who helped me you know like I tell them everything I could tell them but it's been 3 years and change by the time they interviewed me it's almost been four years and everybody's already cooperated right so some people have already gone to jail and gotten out like uh um Allison uh had already gotten gone to jail and was getting and was in the like getting out in the halfway house um Becky was in jail she got 70 months and it got cut down to like 30 months when they arrested me cuz she got cooperation cuz she had told them everything she could tell them and they said okay you've helped us we'll cut your sentence so she left almost as soon as I got arrested within a year she's gone but everybody everybody I'd worked with in Tampa had already cooperated against me but they had never arrested them so by the time they're talking to me it's late it's mid to late 2007 what's happening in 2007 things are getting bad in the economy it's starting to collapse so they they always say the financial 2008 financial crisis yeah but that was going on six or eight months before 2008 financial crisis is because in 2008 that's when they did the bailout that's when it was so bad we've got to bail these guys out so it's all B it's bad there's a lot of press I cooperate but they don't and they say they're going to go indict people and I'm supposed to get my time cut so I I get 26 years I was also interviewed by dline they did a 1our special on me and they came and interviewed me I get sentenced 26 years I go to prison I'm at the medium security prison and it's a real prison exactly what you think people are getting stabbed riots um I didn't have a problem you know you talk to these guys who you know I had to fight the first day I got in there I got a shank I got none that happened and I was at a medium guys are getting stabbed really you know were you scared of going to prison like that terrified I know you look at me and you think tough guy but that's not true I'm not a tough guy I'm as soft as [ __ ] cotton I mean I'm not a fighter you know so I mean so how do you so how do you not get taken advantage of imprison you know it's so funny because the only time I ever had anybody even try and extort me was when I went to the to the low and whenever I tell this story I always get people in the comment section they're like this guy's lying he's lying but at the low low security low federal prisons are filled with sex offenders and people that cooperated like you're either half of them are sex offenders the other half 90% of those guys cooperated so if there's TW 1,00 or 2,000 people there's a thousand that thousand people there that aren't there for sex offense out of that thousand there's maybe a hundred that didn't cooperate and that doesn't mean that they didn't try and cooperate they're like me they cooperated they just didn't get anything for it so there's very the only people that you can be for sure didn't cooperate are people that went to trial and I can't tell you how many times I've read somebody who's like their their they call them a TW it's it's a it's a habus action where you're trying to say hey my my lawyer was ineffective I can't tell you how many times guys I've read them where they're like look I plead guilty my lawyer never told me I could cooperate so I didn't does that make sense so like you're walking around like [ __ ] those snitches [ __ ] snitches well I read your 2255 and had you known you could cooperate you're saying you would have you know what I'm saying like sometimes they just don't know and I've had friends that I talked why is that more dangerous though like why are those people more dangerous than the higher security the medium security you said the low level is is filled with those guys it's more dangerous no no no I'm saying that's the only time I was ever extorted okay I'm not saying it's more dangerous got it it is dangerous but it's dangerous like like a really really rough High School right like you could get stabbed but honestly if you just go to class and just keep your nose down like I always say this like if you get stabbed in prison you had it coming if you get your ass beat in prison you had it coming if people aren't walking around just smashing people right like I had to do something maybe I ran up a debt like with you I owed you $200 or I I borrowed something from you and I and you said hey man I need to get that back and I said [ __ ] you okay well you're going to get hurt you could get you might get away with that once or twice but you're not not a lot maybe you're gambling you run up a debt and you don't pay it you owe the bookie $200 he's got to do something to hurt you maybe maybe you run up a store debt like some guy sells stuff out of his locker he's got like a little store they call it um and you're getting potato chips and you're supposed to get them two potato chip bags and you said [ __ ] you I'm not goingon to do it or or sorry or you're you're disrespectful to somebody right like you're not you start or you gossip you start talking about something I start talking about Graham Graham's a snitch Graham's this [ __ ] Graham he's a [ __ ] you have to do something about that right you can't sue me that's how people get hurt and typically the guys Graham comes to me and says listen man you need to watch your mouth you need to you know or hey you need to check in you need to go go to the shoe go to the hole right you know people call it's called the shoe you need to check in or you're going to get hurt man [ __ ] you you ain't going to do nothing what you going to do what are you going to do probably 80% of the time and even in the low they're going to do something but how common is it that someone big will come up and be like oh you're going to be with me tonight and then then yeah and then if you fight back on that then you could get like hurt um is that so there's it's more likely that they they call it that they pressure you right like you and I've actually had this happen where it almost happened like I'm walking I see there's a click of guys right they call them this is going to sound horrible booty Bandits you've heard the have you heard the term no I've never heard of that term because look in the prison genre this is like common like guys do whole videos on it there'll be like booty Bandits where they chase other guys around this is so not your your your your yeah your guy's um um thing but so what happens is one time I'm walking I'm just walking around the unit um and this guy goes yo yo bro hey Cox come here let me talk to you for a second and I go no I'm good I said what's going on well come here let me talk to you now what I notice is his cell door is open two of his buddies are standing on the cell next to it just talking like they don't even know what's going on another guy standing over here and I already know he's said let let me talk to you in my uh in my cell for a second so he's either trying to get me close to the door or get me in a Cell soon as I get into a cell these three guys are going to run in close the door and they're going to pull out knives what are you going to do bro and then it's suddenly going to get very serious and they're going to want you to do something they're going to want this or you're going to get stuck and you're scared to death would they actually stab you I don't know but I knew not to I Knew right then I actually grabbed the handrail I said no bro I'm good I said if you want to talk we can talk right here will you think I'm going to do something I said if I don't go in your cell I don't have to find out what's up no man I'm just saying if you need anything you need shoes I could buy you shoes you need you need dopee whatever you want I got you he's just a nice guy right like why would you do that they're trying to in make you indebted to them because suddenly he bought you a pair of $120 shoes now you owe me and in a way he you do owe him and he feels like you owe him so then you might get hurt so I'm like yeah bro I don't need nothing no man I see you wearing wearing these shoes all the time they're all bad man they're [ __ ] up they're I'm good man I'm good you know and that's just and I'm I'm holding on this cuz I know if he grabs me or tries to pull me or all of them I'm going to lock on and just start screaming didn't happen how do how do the officers just not see this and there's not cameras everywhere I mean there are cameras but honestly like half of them don't work you know and the officer is like they're they're worried about you causing a fight like fight or something like people stabbing it like they're not you know and look here's the other thing about that the whole rap situation is that keep in mind there there's gay people there's gay guys in prison there are they you know they call them punks right so there's punks in prison there are transgenders and I mean boob like there's three guys walking around the compound with boobs and butt implants and like it's it's like this is insane are they popular in jail or are they are you serious they're extremely po listen if you're a punk in prison you run that place I mean these guys are desperate desperate to be with this guy because there's a lot of like people that are gay in prison like I don't know what percentage of people that go to prison like end up you know having gay intercourse right but is that because they're like born gay and they just never get a chance to like you know have a sex or something like that and then and then once they hit prison it's like somehow socially accepted it's probably a scale right like you have some guys that are just 100% masculine right super masculine and then you have you know and it's a scale like you know you so it you know goes to like you know you're you're by you have sex with men and women and then maybe you only have sex with you know men so you know it's a scale so some of these guys are Maybe by but they never act on it because they're in a culture where it's not acceptable um like in the back black community is really not acceptable you know like these guys really frown on it so they never act on it but then they and you'll hear this term a lot gay for the stay you'd hear this all the time so they stay because no no they're when they're in prison for their prison their stay so he's gay for the stay he's gay while he's here but when he gets out he's not he was only having sex with other men because he was incarcerated I just have a hard time believing that they're not gay if they you know what I mean cuz like you take a perfect like a perfectly straight person versus a per perfectly gay person like I think it would be probably hard to convince that person you know like it's kind of a silly conversation like I'm straight and I could like I don't know if I was in prison for like 30 years and it's like you're 25 it's like thing that's why I always joke about that I'm like look to a guy with a life sentence I might as well be wearing a dress like to a guy with a life sentence like he's given up on all pretenses and if he had any inclinations to toward being a homosexual he just goes all in why wouldn't he he's got 30 years he's probably going to die in prison are there like bullies for gay people in prison like yeah like that's what I'm saying they'll pressure you like they'll give you stuff or they'll they'll no no no but like do people bully people for being gay in prison or is it kind of like no that's really interest cuz you think I would I I agree I mean I agree like I I I feel like most of the gay guys in prison were treated very well and were typically extremely most of the gay guys in prison are there for um for fraud by the way most of them and they're very manipulative and they'll have multiple guys buying them commissary getting them shoes uh they'll have multiple boyfriends they'll charge you know for sexual acts they have money on their sorry money on their books like your inmate account they'll people will put money on their books they'll end up getting they call them a war Daddy a big big big guy that you know is um that like defends them yes does it happen often where people go to prison not knowing they're gay they turn gay in prison then they continue to be gay outside of prison no J really thought about them because here's the thing that's odly specific for me this is like I feel like it's like a human phenomenon that it just so happens it it's it's confusing to me that someone can just go to prison because I put myself in those shoes right I imagine myself having a life sentence and I'm like there's just no way there's no way that it could ever that it could happen right so I'll tell you one thing here's what's funny is a lot of guys will they'll get the like the nudie magazines the girl magazines you know whatever you know they're not play with like Penthouse or whatever and they'll just look at the like that seems like that's all they ever you ever see him looking at but I never did that because I remember thinking that's going to make my time I'm going to I'm not going to focus my time on on that because it's just going to make my time harder so I literally when I got locked up and as I was locked up for a longer period of time I started thinking to myself like you know two years go by three four you kind of give up on the idea as I was approaching you know my mid 40s I kind and I thought you know probably you're going to be getting out when you're 60 that's over that part of your life is over you'll never be in love again you're not going to be you're not going to have a girlfriend a wife you're not going to kiss a girl you're not that romance portion of your life is over so there's no reason to look at those magazines it only makes things harder you know so I just I just didn't but there's lots of guys that that's all they focus on an escape as an escape right they they're fantasizing whatever's going through their mind um you know and I just never did that because all I thought was this just going to make things harder you know I don't know that I answer your question but how do people sneak in everything to jail oh well you're talking about like a oh well you know I guess it this happen like internet access or like no internet no internet access so I see people posting like on YouTube from jail okay well now those May beep that may be somebody who has a cell phone yeah right so guards it depends on the custody level but guards will bring in a cell phone for somebody like you give them like a th like they buy a a a $80 phone or maybe your maybe your girlfriend goes to the guard and gives him a phone and then you and she gives him $1,000 and he gives you the phone now you got a phone you know or guys will you know hoop it you know what I'm saying they'll yeah do you not do you actually not understand this they place it in their they'll go to they'll go to visit and they'll keer it or put it in their prison in their prison purse and then they go and they get strip searched but they're you know they don't catch it obviously they don't it's you know supposedly you bend over cough and some there's supposed to be some kind of reaction you charge it though you can get a charger you get a charge yes no I mean what do you mean well oh no no no but there's an outlet in the oh no well you can find you can you can find an outlet like wouldn't someone see it like a guard do you know how many like honestly like for 2,000 in no they don't see it cuz they're they're in their office like you you literally could go six months to a year without ever talking to a guard you're going to see them periodically but you don't have to have any you don't want to talk to him right no not really you know there's no real reason to um it doesn't look good for it depends on where you're what what custody level you are but yeah that but you can you can find access you look you all have lights in your cells right like you could pull the light off and find this find a way to plug in the the charger to charge it and charge the these guys are they can be brilliant you know they be very creative on you know let's say everybody's got jobs right so you go to the job there's outlets in the job you know so if you're working in a factory or you're working I worked in education I taught GED so there's plugs there how do you prevent your items from being stolen you have a locker with a lock on it okay I mean people could steal steal it but literally guys will track that these guys they please themselves if someone stealing from two or three people's shoes end up missing these guys will track down who the person is like a being a thief in prison that's bad bro like you're not going to make it long these guys will just beat like five guys will just catch in the bathroom and just beat the crap out of you dude did people die while you were in people died but not from like stabbings or anything they died just from medical you know like guy some guy one this is just one instance a guy got off the bus he was uh he needed um uh he was asthmatic extremely asmatic got off the bus and and they had his stuff right and so they didn't they wouldn't give it to him they said Well Medical has to check it out they have to give it to you okay well it's 4:00 I need my medication oh well when you get to the unit tell them to call Medical medical closes but he doesn't know the guard's just trying to get him off get get well you go to the unit tell the unit uh tell the unit manager and they'll get it from medical because I to bring this to Medical so he brings it to Medical goes there unit manager's not there goes to the co hey man I I need my stuff okay okay we'll take care of it after count it's four o00 count everybody has to stand in there and they go around they count Everybody by 4:30 they're done he goes back hey man I need my I need my my in my my my uh inhaler inhaler you don't understand I could die I could all right calm down calm I'll call down there call down there they're not there I need it but they're not there bro I don't know what to tell you go look when you go to dinner see if the see if the assistant Warden is there and talk to the assistant Warden goes there assistant warden's not there goes to try and talk to the lieutenant Lieutenant says they're closed what do you want me to do you'll get it tomorrow guys in tears guys calling his his calls his uh his family at home I'm here I'm in I'm I'm in Coleman I just got here they've got my stuff they won't give it to me I don't know what to do everybody's freaking out nobody wants to help him that night he has a massive uh asthma attack and he dies he wakes up the next morning he's as hard as a [ __ ] rock like you know done died in the middle of the night who's responsible for that no way you can't sue anybody just a mistake and you know where they said he died they what they'll do is they'll come during count they'll realize he's dead and they'll go they'll then call then they'll call the outside ambulance the guards will put him on one of these orange things that they carry or they'll strap him down they and they'll go hurry hurry the guy's dead rigga mortise is set in he's done they Rush him out get him outside put him in the ambulance and then they say he died on his way to the hospital so he left here alive everybody knows he didn't but there's nobody it's shocking to me that the family has a record of him saying he's been trying to access medication can't right warned about it and he's dead it seems as though how many police officers are on camera violating people's rights beating them up breaking their arms hurting them they fire the guy maybe they pay do a payoff only because they're on on film why don't these people aren't on film do the officers care about this person's life because it seems like even just as a human it's like if the guy needs his medication you they probably see a lot of people fabricating things exaggerating lying and so they just use their judgment and it's very skewed and and and that's really the problem and I always say I always used to say you know every time the administration try would try and do something for the inmates they ruin it the inmates ruin it every time they want to they they had this thing where they were you could rent movies not rent movies just sign up and you could get a movie they had a whole list of movies you could get very quickly the guy that's running that the inmate that's running it now you have to pay him to get to see a movie and before you know it he's selling slots to two different people and then suddenly there's fights and guys are getting stabbed over it and it's like they're paying you to sit here and schedule people you're charging people $4 to watch this new movie they got in and you're scheduling it so much this guy shows up late and this guy's pissed off and he's not done yet Mom right here tell him to you know these guys aren't normal like they're and next thing you know that guy walks in and just picks up a [ __ ] picks up something smashes the guy in the head and does jail screw with people's minds cuz it seems like being in that environment maybe causes something people to like act out in that sort of way I think most those people probably had issues to begin with if that makes sense you know because I did 13 years and I'm not saying I'm you know the pitcher of Health but I don't think I'm mentally any worse off now than I was but I also wasn't in a a Penitentiary so I wasn't in a a violent place where you where and there are some penitentiaries like California penitentiaries are some of the worst right like yet guys are literally like and they are getting you you know there are stabbings there are but I committed a federal crime I shouldn't have even been in a medium I should have gone straight to a camp I have Camp points but because I had so much time they sent me to a medium I stayed there for three years after three years I went to a low what's the biggest difference between medium and low in terms of security um in a medium if a guy puts his a Snickers bar on your pillow don't eat it don't touch it because he's G to come back for it you better be there right if he doesn't you owe him in the low you can eat the [ __ ] Snickers you know what I'm saying does that make sense like it's a very Ser it's more serious you know remember I was saying like if somebody gives you something like oh now you owe me now you owe me you know so it's like if somebody left the Snickers they'd be like take that thing and just stick it outside and be like I don't know what you're you know or don't even touch it like I don't know what you're [ __ ] around get your [ __ ] off my off my pillow but at the low you could eat it nobody's going to probably do anything so like I said at the low when I got the low I'd been there a month or so and I had a guy come up to me and tell me he walked right up to me and he goes yo man this is how this is going to go you're going to get me $50 in commissary and I don't know what the exact amount was but $50 in commissary every single month and nobody's going to bother you I said yeah he said yeah I ain't [ __ ] around I said all right I said well what do you want and I guess he didn't expect it to go that smoothly he goes man I ain't playing around I said bro I heard you you want $50 commissary said but I need to know what you want I said nobody's going to bother he said no I said give me a can you give me a list I ain't joking I said bro what do you want me to say you just told me $50 in commissary what do you want you want me to just get you whatever I want you to have and I said give me a list all right I'll get you a list I said make sure you put your like whatever whatever you know they call them cells with their cubicles in the low's because they don't have doors tell me what what cell you're in he is what what you need to sell for I said because when I when I take I said when give me the list and I go to the counselor and I tell the counselor what am I supposed to do about this this guy wants me to give him buy $50 in commissary I said he's in I want to be able to tell him he's in this cell so we can go straight to you and we can talk about it he oh that's how it is see normally in the comments people if I've I've said this before they're always like he'd be smashed that guy would have beat your ass you never tell I was in a low security prison federal prison half the guys are sex offenders 90% of the other guys are are have cooperated this is not a tough tough place not saying people don't get stabbed they do right but and he sat there and he's like oh that's how it going to be you're going to snitch on me I said of course I'm going to snitch on you I said bro I said almost everybody in this [ __ ] place is a snitch I go I just came from the medium for 3 years and nobody ever extorted me do you think I'm going to get extorted at the low and he goes all right you're going to have some problems you're going to have problems I said all right well if I do I'll know where to find you I'll have problems I said if I have to get smashed and I have to go to the [ __ ] shoe then that's what I have I said I got 20 [ __ ] years to go 20 years do you really think that I don't expect to get smashed a few times I said but I promise you're going too I said cuz I ain't keeping my mouth shut oh okay we're going to see you they're going to come back and bite you and he walks off yeah never heard anything else from the guy saw the guy he's in my unit I see him every day I'd walk I used to avoid him yeah I would avoid him for like months right like he I see he was luckily he was like 6' six Super tall thin but super tall so I could see him everywhere you could anywhere you stood up youd be like oh there he is I'd walk this way so I'm kind of avoiding him but at some point something happened and he just like it was I had to move cells and I swapped out a cell with a sex offender some guy moved in my cell I didn't want my cell so I went to the sex offender and I said look I'll give you 35 bucks if you'll switch celles with me so while the other guy is sleeping we swap out all of our stuff I get the counselor to agree to it we swap it all out and then when the guy wakes up he realizes one you moved into my cell without asking me and now guess and I'm pissed and you basically told me [ __ ] you it's tough [ __ ] I got permission nothing you can do and I then go to the counselor and convince him to let me move the sex offender in there he says okay and I move the sex offender in there so when this guy wakes up from his nap he's now living with a sex offender it's the worst thing you could possibly do so I do that and everybody it got around IM Meed everybody's laughing their asses off like damn Cox so that guy thaty the 6'6 guy one day I'm walking down and I see him I look up he goes [ __ ] and I thought ah [ __ ] with this guy and I go yeah what's up he said that [ __ ] you they call him chomos he go that [ __ ] you did with the chomo and I go yeah he goes veteran [ __ ] move bro we dab hands he goes veteran [ __ ] move and he just walks off I don't understand why is it the worst thing to be paired up with a sex offender because they're a sex offender and they're like the you know in in prison in the hierarchy of prison like that's the worst possible thing you could be being paired with them isn't is that bad no no I'm saying I have to live with a sex offender in some prisons the guys will tell you you cannot like if you're in a gang or something like you can't live with a sex offender and and what they mean is like you tell him he's got like 48 hours to move he needs to get himself moved but the SE if the sex offender says I'm not moving well then you have to smash him or you're going to get smashed do you see what I mean like it's interesting you know like I I I honestly I had a very easy not that any of it's super easy but in comparison to the prison experience I could have had I I I was blessed I really was blessed it could have been really bad you know I I could have gone to a much worse place I could have had major problems I got very lucky I taught GED I taught the real estate class they have a real estate class it was super popular um you know I I went to the I went to the I went to the low and I that's where the guy Frank Amadeo let see I i' been interviewed let's get back to that I I've been interviewed by dline and the US attorney in my case said if you're interviewed by date first if you cooperate we'll consider it sub what's called substantial assistance and will reduce your sentence I did it but they didn't arrest anybody so when we said okay but I cooperated they said yeah but it didn't lead it to anything so we can't do anything for you then they came to me they said look if you'll be interviewed by dat line we'll consider that substantial assistance and we'll we'll reduce your sentence so I'm interviewed by dat line they air it we go back to him say hey he was interviewed and they go yeah it's just not enough okay and so then American Greed contacts us they contact the US attorney they say hey we want to interview this guy she tells my attorney have him be interviewed okay I'm interviewed by him it's released it airs I have the episode and they say it's just not enough then I'm contacting Ed by a guy Jim mantrum who runs the the National Mortgage origination group all mortgage brokers have to take like 9 hours of Contin education every year right three hours is on ethics and fraud so he comes to me he goes goes gets my lawyer goes to the US attorney and they come back and they say look we want Cox to write the ethics and fraud course that's going to be used to help teach the nation's mortgage brokers I spend three months writing this course well probably two or three months writing the course 9,500 words he starts he implements it he starts using it we get a bunch of letters from people saying that it's being used um we go back to the US attorney we say here you promised if I did this and they go yeah it's just not enough so at this point what do I do at this point it's been five six years been six years my outdate with good time so with 15% off my sentence if I got no good time my outdate is 2035 but I'm a guy I didn't lose any good time I'm a good person I'm a good inmate so I'm I'm going to get all my good time my outdate is 2030 I'm supposed to be right now in prison so finally I realized there's nothing I can do so I said well I want to file something right like there's paperwork in file something called a 2255 it's a habus motion I know that means nothing basically it's saying hey my lawyer is inefficent it was ineffective like my lawyer didn't know what they were doing and so you try and take back your plea like you I was given bad information I want to take my plea back I want to start over so you have one year to do that from the day you're sentenced it's been six years so I've called a bunch of people uh lawyers on the street they've all said you don't have a chance there's nothing you can do you'll never get back into the court so I go I have a buddy who's been working with this guy named Frank Amadeo he's a a dispar lawyer he's doing 22 he was doing 22 years for uh um for tax fraud he's bipolar with features of schizophrenia so some bipolars have such bad bipolar that when they become manic they become like delusional right so they don't just get upset and angry they actually have like fantasies his fantasy and he would disagree with this is that God is telling him that he is pre-ordained to be emperor of the world exactly how he tell how how he that's how he says it not ruler king emperor of the world um he's pre-ordained God has has ordained it it's going to happen and he believes God's telling him this which is how he ended up in prison he stole a nearly $200 million from the federal government whoa do how did you do that so listen um and this actually happens a lot you don't hear about it um let's say some big company you know a lot of these companies that go under right they CL bankruptcy whatever so most companies do what they'll stop paying their vendors they'll pay the it's and then but they'll almost always pay their employees right but what a lot of times what happens is if you're a W2 employee making $1,000 a week the your employer takes out your um your taxes right let's say $200 a week and then plus they pay in a little bit right like 50 bucks so that $250 um every quarter they send that to the IRS well a lot of times when these companies get into Financial Straits they tell the IRS we have the money well we owe you the money but we don't have it we spent it as long as they notify the IRS that's okay um so what happens is they can get further and further behind and so what Frank did was Frank would go in and buy companies that were in distress he would then immediately say look all of your employees I'm going to have run we're going to have them lease we're going to have them work for this company a pay a payroll not payroll company but a employee leasing company and they're going to lease the employees back to you and we'll do all the payroll and he owns this company so now there's hundreds of thousands of dollars every week for your company going into the payroll company and Frank is paying the employees but the money he's supposed to be sending to the IRS he doesn't send it to him he keeps it he keeps it and he's using it to do things like he's trying to by f-16s he starts a secur a private security company that has contracts in Afghanistan that is in charge of you know um guarding uh convoys that is guarding diplomats that are kidnapping people in other countries and bringing them back to the United States like if you're a a drug dealer the DEA wants you but you're a a Brazilian drug dealer who's hanging out in Colombia the DEA can't go get them Frank's company comes in watches them for a week grabs them throws them on a plane flies them back in calls a DEA gives them to the DEA DEA Cuts you a check for $250,000 no questions asked he's wanted if he shows up here we don't ask questions there are companies that do this black water these are private companies they they guard oil rigs they you know so he's got companies that do these things he's got a private a military company that builds sat um portable satellites like just all these things that are they have um military applications Frank goes to prison and he starts representing clients like are inmates so he's in he gets 22 years for doing for for for the money that he wasn't sending the IRS and it's a super interesting story by the way like if I I actually never mind I wrote a book um but it's so I I really lay it out it's it's really interesting and he's a fascinating character and a hilarious and and honestly um so he was there a few years before I ever talked to him I wasn't going to talk to him because he's delusional like I don't want that delusional guy doing my my my legal work but he's doing the legal work for other inmates and so every once in a while somebody comes up to me and goes hey man you know you know Jake yeah [ __ ] immediate release tomorrow I think I had like 10 more years no Frank got him immediately release he's leaving are you serious Frank yeah two weeks later uh you know poy in B3 yeah I know I know we with the dreads yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah bro they're putting him halfway house Frank just got 5 years off of sentence he's leaving really 3 weeks later somebody else leaving somebody else 10 years office sentence somebody else immediate release somebody else four years office sentence anything something you got eight years and you get four years off and you're already been locked up three years you're going home right now with good time they're going straight to a halfway house so it's like holy [ __ ] you I heard this for six months to eight months so maybe a year so after a year I go so now it's been like seven years I go to Frank my buddy Turk says you got to come talk to him I go and I I tell him my case here's what happened here's what they said here's what they said and I'm I'm going to do Frank for you here Frank's like 5 foot4 and Frank goes I'm tell he just has these spikes of bipolar right he goes I tell you he said that just I'm not going to let him do this to you I will not let them do this when my when my Legions March on Washington the president will bow at my feet and and and I will burn the Constitution and everybody's me Turk and another guy I realize these other guys are just like standing there like and I'm thinking the [ __ ] is happening and all of a sudden he goes Turk I'm gonna need a form a 2255 form I'm going to need uh uh Jimmy uh start a file on Matt Cox Mr Cox I'm going to need your transcripts I'm going to need a copy of your indictment I'm also going to need a copy of your play agreement blah blah blah and I'm thinking what just happened this guy just said his Legions are going to March on Washington and then these guys are like absolutely Frank absolutely Jimmy turns around and bolts off or Todd or whatever his name was to go get my file and he T come on let's go turn around I'm like the [ __ ] just happened bro I remember thinking I'm spending every day of my sentence in this place he's crazy how do you pay him I didn't pay him I never had to pay him anything he just does this because he enjoys doing he does it because I think it was he's a huge thorn in the side of the bo of the the um not the Bop but of the government yeah um so what happens is we fight the case um [ __ ] so we fight the case yeah I don't know what I'm doing okay you know I'm not doing anything I'm just Frank says do this yes sir and I'm still seeing him cut people loose he prepares the documents he sends them off they come back government says this guy's time barred Frank says the time bar is reset every time you requested do something Mr Cox could have done something immediately but you requested he'd be interviewed by Dateline so he didn't cuz he expected you to do what you were going to do he said my lawyer which was funny because he didn't say lawyer was ineffective my lawyer because you don't have the right by the way for an effective lawyer under the Constitution you just have a right to a lawyer so that's why a lot of people he uh lose he said my lawyer was just didn't understand the law so we argue back and forth back and forth back and forth this goes on for 68 months and then finally when it looks like I'm going to get what's called an evidentiary hearing where they're going to bring me back to court where you can argue in front of Court the court the government suddenly tells the court we want you to give Mr Cox a lawyer so he can decide whether or not to accept a What's called the rule 35 a a sentence reduction or continue on to do his to do the uh um the evidentiary hearing so they just said they're going to give me an a rule they're going to reduce my sentence not by my they said one level I'm sorry they didn't even offer that so the lawyer they give me a lawyer lawyer flies down she says they're offering you one level it's like 40 months off my sentence and so I said oh no no it's not enough so I said Frank said that we want four levels and she's like um well okay uh who's Frank and I said Frank's the guy that did all my legal work and I explained to her that he's you know she goes what's he here for and I tell her what he's there for and she's like you've got a mentally Inc competent guy doing your legal work I said yeah I said but it doesn't seem to affect his legal work does it I said because everybody she said yeah but still I said yeah but all the Le all the all of the um competent lawyers said they wouldn't do it she's like yeah well you don't have a chance of winning I go and yet you're here I've already won one level they've already agreed I said if you're saying I don't have a chance she goes no I said if I don't have a chance why wouldn't they just crush me why are you here says yeah I don't I don't know so anyway long story short we go back and forth back forth I end up going they bring me they they go up to like they're going to give me they give me one level and they agree look here's what we're going to do we're going to bring you back to court you can argue in front of the judge so we go back to court we argue in front of the judge and the judge says I'm going to give you three levels off your sentence which is three levels is the equivalent of seven years wow so you have to think incrementally each level represents less and less months of incarceration as you go lower so this is seven right three levels is seven so I come back to court and I go up to Frank and I remember uh cuz I always love this that he said this is so funny he goes uh I said went to Frank I said hey Frank uh I just got back and he's like yeah I heard I said I got seven years off my sentence and I said I really appreciate it and he goes right yeah and I said but I I was hoping it would be more you know and he said um he said I know he said so did I he said you know Matt he said um looks like we're going to have to eat this elh El an one spoonful at a time he said you keep your ears open he said something will happen something will happen we're going to get you some more time off I was like and I just thought you know he's just he's just he's probably 10 years older than me so you know he's just trying to be you know nice and you know and and it was even just for me to even say I was hoping it would be more like it was a dick thing for me to even say um so and it's funny I get upset because like I'm so [ __ ] appreciative like I didn't have a chance without this guy yeah you know and um so I'm walking around the compound and uh I'm walking around the compound a month later with this guy named Ron Wilson Ron Wilson ran a Ponzi scheme where he stole $57 million from Pension funds and churches not a nice guy uh but I liked Ron you know it's is an old con man we had a lot he's super cocky super arrogant reminding me of my dad um so I'm walking around the compound with him one day and he's complaining cuz he' been locked up maybe a year or so but he's cooperating in his case hoping to get some time off his sentence he's got like 19 and a half years so he keeps saying he's they're not going to reduce his they're not going to cut any any time off his sentence and I keep saying why he goes because they think I hid Ponzi scheme money I said well you didn't you gave them all the Ponzi scheme money ah you don't understand okay this goes on for months two three months and then one day he keeps saying it and I said why do you keep saying that bro like they would have to find out that you don't have Ponzi that you have the Ponzi scheme money to withhold your sentence reduction assuming your cooperation leads to something and he goes can I trust you and I go probably not and he goes he goes uh I did I did hide some pzi SCH money and I went okay okay he said yeah he said I gave my wife not much1 $150,000 uh in in some cash and uh but she found out since I've been incarcerated she's found out that I was having an affair actually think it was before that but she found out I was having an affair and you don't know my wife she's crazy she'll burn the whole house down around her like she doesn't care and she's so upset about it my fear is she's going to give them that money to make sure that I do all this time and of course he's already decided he's going to die in prison and I'm like cuz he's 60 right he's like 61 and I was like okay and he said I gave my brother about 30,000 I'm like okay and he says um so yeah and I went okay and so we're walking and I said well don't worry about it she's not going to do that blah blah blah he's like we'll see and I remember thinking is that enough to get me a sentence reduction if I contact someone and tell them and they indict this guy and then I thought they're not going to indict this guy cuz there's the wife's not going to give up the money like he's just griping MH so I don't say anything so maybe a month or so later I called my lawyer because she was supposed to send me my transcripts CU I had written a book right I wrote my book and I wanted to include some of the stuff that was said at my sentencing so I call her and when we're talking she says okay yeah yeah I'll send them to you I'm sorry Matt I totally forgot okay she says um anything going on in there I said no nothing and she goes you sure nothing it was was weird right like you never wanted to talk to me before and I was like um no well I said yeah you know what listen to this there's a guy here named Ron Wilson so she types him up she goes oh wow this is a bad guy and I said this is what he told me and she goes okay hold on she said look uh I'll look into it for you okay I figured I'd never hear from her a week later a a cretal officer comes up to me and says Cox you got to go to Sis which is internal security so you got to go there on the next move I go okay so I go there they go come on in uh the guy comes come in come here Cox sit down okay he dials the phone here I said what what's going on like I don't know the [ __ ] happening so I'm like yeah what's up and this guy goes hey this is a secret service agent Griffin I think his last name was Griffin uh Griffin and I'm like uh yeah he said I understand you know where Ron Wilson hid Ponzi schem money I go yeah but I need something in writing saying you're going to give me something and he was well I okay I'll I'll try and blah blah blah first he told me that oh I'll make sure you get something well I know you can't you can't promise that so I'm going to need something from a US attorney so after about takes about a month or so he ends up sending me something saying that if they re recover any money a substantial amount of money or anybody's indicted they will reduce my they will consider substantial assistance and reduce my sentence what else do I have it's all I'm going to get so I tell them what happened they go they interview Ron Wilson's wife and his brother his wife his brother bring his brother his wife first denies it the next day his brother comes in and gives him $150 ,000 he said 30 then the same an hour or two later the wife comes in and gives him $350,000 that's half a million dollars including gold bullion silver because he was a he was a silver dealer his Ponzi was based on precious metals so she's got like a like $100,000 in Precious Metals gives it to him they indict the the wife the brother and Ron Wilson keep in mind I've been emailing these people the secret this whole time so that's that's pretty dangerous like I could get hurt for that if the other inmates found out I could get a beat real bad beat down but I want out of prison um and between Ron Wilson and me it's going to be Ron Wilson so like you know I so Wilson I know all this is happening he doesn't so one day I'm walking across the compound waiting for this [ __ ] to for him to realize and all of a sudden [ __ ] and I'm like like oh [ __ ] I'm like Hey Ron what's up and he says uh you're not going to believe this they indicted me I'm like huh they indicted you that's crazy and he says uh yeah they indicted me and uh my wife and my brother and I'm like whoa that's crazy and he's like yeah um so they're going to take me back to court and so they they take him back they end up taking him back to court his wife gets like a 100 hours of community service and like a year probation his brother gets like a year probation in like 50 hours of community service Ron Wilson gets six months added on to his sentence when I turn around and go to the court and say hey here's what's happening I want you said you reduce my sentence the courts the the US attorney they ignore my requests then I go back to Frank and I explain it to Frank and Frank files another 2255 goes back to the court and the government says we don't even know what Mr Cox is talking about but I had that letter wow so I send that to the judge the judge is like listen something's up so suddenly they give me a lawyer the lawyer flies down they say we'll give you one level off we argue we get we end up getting three levels off my sage was is five years I told you incrementally it goes down so it's five years by the time that happens I'm like a year away from being released my sentence has now been knocked 12 years came off my sentence but I've been locked up at this point it's been you know this has been 12 years you know 11 change so within whatever six months to a year I'm I'm released and I go to a halfway house and you know that's the that's so I I go to a halfway house I go to the halfway house and now I'm here what's it like adjusting to life outside a prison like technology I felt moves so quickly in time frame like do you come out and you're like what is this like you i' never seen an iPhone I'd never been on YouTube I'd never been on Facebook I'd never um yeah none of all of that is completely foreign to me um like I said I I had written a bunch of true crime stories while I was locked up I wrote a bunch of true crime stories I got some guys in Rolling Stone magazine I got a book deal I got two book deals like there I I optioned somebody's life rights um but I did it all by writing and typing it on Cor links which is like um like email kind of like email and there's no access to the internet all of these things like all I knew when I got out was I wanted to do a podcast but like I said earlier like I there was no such thing as a podcast when I got arrested I didn't know what it was guys are guys are coming in are trying to explain it to me it's like a radio show but it's like and I'm like I don't understand where do you listen to it what is it oh on your phone on my phone I had a I had a razor flip phone you're not listening to nothing on a razor flip phone so you know like I don't know what it is so yeah when I got when I got there I remember when I got to the halfway house I got a job that a buddy hired me at a gym right away my probation officer sent me said hey I just emailed you a financial like a financial statement you have to fill out it's like 20 Pages said okay I tell my she said you got to print it fill it out mail it to me okay I go to my buddy and I said hey man she mailed me this I have to print this out and he goes um okay he said here hold on um okay there he was okay he said it's printing on the uh and I went no bro I need a I need like a physical copy I have to fill it out he goes it's on the printer I said what are you talking about I said I I mean I need to print this I need to print it so I can fill it out and mail it to her he goes it's on the printer it's like 30 ft away and I went what are you [ __ ] what are you bro what are you talking about I said you didn't do anything with it and he goes oh wow bro he said listen I said there's no wir you have to plug it into we have to print it well you got to plug it in and he goes no Matt I I just connected you to the Wi-Fi the printer's connected to the Wi-Fi so I just it just went through the Wi-Fi to the printer and it's printed so I'm like what just go to the printer I walk over the printer and there it is 20 Pages It's Magic like it's magic like I could watch movies I could anything I ever wanted to know 150 guys have made a YouTube video it doesn't matter how stupid it is if you want to know about how to put the foam thing on you know your sure mic like there's a guy the proper way to do this is you know like it's it's insane I'm shocked and you know what's so funny is still to this day I'll be with a couple people and they'll be arguing about something and I'll and I'll be like you have the most powerful device ever created in history let's look look it up you know who you know created this and then boom I'm like you guys have been arguing for five minutes so it's just so funny because like although I still have little glitches yeah it does it it it absolutely seems like magic what was the biggest adjustment for you I was definitely was it the iPhone yeah it was the iPhone and it was um editing learning how to edit you know I use Final Cut Pro I don't know what you guys use but super like I didn't have anybody to help me so I'm watching YouTube videos like baby step baby step baby and now of course like I can do shorts and I can do editing and I you I can do whatever I need to do at this point yeah I would say just the technology in in general and then you know obviously re acclimating just to society like how did people treat you when you got out of jail yeah know I don't really hang out with the only person people that I really hang out with that I I used to hang out with was is my um it's just a couple of friends that were weren't really involved in the fraud at all we were friends in high school so friends from high school that had nothing to do with my fraud that I'd kind of you know after your high school friends you go off and you get new friends right well I go and off and I got my fraud friends and so those high school friends were the friends that came and saw me in prison and got me a job immediately the other people don't return phone calls they don't return you know you send them something on message or they don't return it Instagram text nothing so those people I don't hear from I think for the most part people have been cool that I knew me prior but I think most people new people when I meet them it's always kind of funny I'll go to a party and you're talking to somebody and I don't bring it up but I'm not going to shy away from it right so you you bring it up and then somebody oh yeah I'm like oh what do you do oh I do this we talk about that for 10 minutes oh what do you do and I go I you know I do I run a YouTube channel um you know and I do speaking engagements and oh what kind of YouTube channel it's you know and my my wife will look at me you know and it's like how long can I what can I say that's gonna not you know what I'm saying and I'm like oh it's about True Crime oh how'd you get into that okay I'm like H you know I did 13 years in prison for bank fraud and so I got out and I decided to start one and they're like the listen this happened with three different couples about two weeks ago every one of their moods changed you could immediately see it in their faces and you know one guy was like well you know I mean you you did the time you did what you did I mean I'm not I don't know what it is but I mean you know I don't have a problem with i i it's just like I didn't say you had a problem with like immediately went into this whole apologetic thing for me apologizing on my behalf and he's okay with want you to know I'm okay with it and I I didn't think you weren't okay I don't need you to be okay with it but I was like okay no I get it I get it and you know my wife and I are just grinning and I met my wife in the halfway house she had did five years for a a meth uh conspiracy what is meth conspiracy you know methamphetamine yeah I know that what's the conspiracy she was working under a guy named Wildman in okachobee Florida and there were like 30 people on her case and so she's Distributing meth you know she's got dealers underneath her they're selling she's selling she's getting it from him he's getting it from the Mexican cartel wow you know so yeah it's she's got a a super interesting story why do you think you went in this direction because you're obviously very charismatic confident smart well spoken it seems like you could have excelled in just about anything that you would put your mind to I mean maybe you know what I've heard a lot as I always get that that you know this guy would have been successful at anything he did okay or he would have made way more money if he done something legal I mean honestly the amount of money I was making for the amount of effort you know I wouldn't have like fraud you know and and it was easy and it was once again it was just arrogance and I just thought I was so smart and I was going to get away with it and they weren't going to catch me and every time time they did catch me I I paid them back or I talked my way out of it and I this so you can imagine how Invincible you would feel having been in the they handcuffed me they handcuffed me they questioned me they've got the bank saying you're committing fraud they've got me 100% I walk out of there I felt like they cannot catch me I mean I just felt Invincible you know I look back at stupid obviously how much time do you think you needed to serve in order to change I I probably should have gotten 10 years and probably done seven and that would have been enough to ensure that you never did anything like that again yeah because after about 3 years um you know I was like like I don't I don't want to come back here like I don't and and I really I'd found like a passion for writing at that point and I think at that point I had realized like you can live with very little to be happy you know like I was happier in prison with nothing than I ever was with everything prior to prison you know I was happier when I got out happier in the halfway house happier living in a spare somebody's spare room happier now with my you know my wife and I like we don't have a lot of money you know um but just super happy with almost nothing I realized that and it took years that's not like something where you say oh if I gotten six months no I was no in six months I was still just an arrogant prick I was scared to death because I at the medium but by three or four years I I had IID had a a a a definite change of heart you know definitely you can't keep in touch with your prison friends can you no so that's illegal yeah yeah but I do but you do is that can you say that I probably can't say that we should probably edit edit that out no it's fine because look here's the thing most of the people I'm I'm in contact with I've written stories about so I have to be in contact with that person I wrote a book about him I wrote a story about him think about the podcast I'm not allowed to be around other felons I'm around other felons at least you got to get it I'm kid at least six times a week yeah at least six times a week I well let's say four or five times a week I do four podcasts I we put out four I probably do five or six a week I'm almost all those guys are felons as long as it's for work I'm allowed to be around them that's been my agreement since the beginning oh that's good yeah now they don't do that for just anybody but you know you have to understand the amount of you know what I've been through and I mean I I'm my probation officer 100% knows like this guy's he's good he's not doing thing she's super um I don't want to say impressed with me but she she wholeheartedly believes that like this guy's not going back to prison if she could take me off probation right now she would but she can't because I still owe like 5.7 million how does that feel to owe 5.7 million I'm good for it you guys have no sense of humor um well I'm doing calculations in my head I'm like Hey listen you do these things do they charge interest on that no not on mine most people they do but that is probably the only argument that my lawyer uh made cuz he was like look he's he's probably never even going to be able to pay this off and who's getting the 5.7 million the banks so it's funny because probably 80% of the banks that I defrauded went under during 2008 so the government's mostly getting it I'm sure that I have I have like three or four victims right that lost money like I didn't take money from you eer no no no um but I rented your house and so I rented your house I satisfied the mortgage I took out four mortgages five mortgages on it and then I took off what do you do you just start getting these these letters and saying they're foreclosing so you have to go out and you hire an attorney you could some people did it themselves some people just started making the phone calls themselves and they fixed it and they realized what was happening because obviously the FBI comes in Secret Service says no no he's a victim of fraud blah blah blah and then they just quash it but some people they don't have that kind of time and they were scared and so they went and they paid $10,000 to an attorney or $5,000 to an attorney so I owe to individual victims uh four people uh total of about $30,000 so I assume every month when I make a payment periodically maybe every quarter I don't know how it works but they get a little check you know what is is that check $16 it's too bad they can't get paid first government so one of the things I thought about doing was once I'm off probation is I I've thought if I could go back in front of the judge and sayl can we arrange it so that I pay these people off first cuz nobody gives a [ __ ] about Banks especially 80% of the banks that went under I agree and nobody's laying awake at night thinking you know I hope Mr Cox makes his restitution payments but these guys I'd love to be able to say look how much have they been paid and what do I owe them cuz if I had to pay those people individually I promise you I'd make a hell of a lot more effort I'd feel a lot better about making that payment and it'd make a lot I don't know that it make a huge difference because honestly if you listen to one guy was a doctor you know one guy is a CPA one guy is a hard money lender who lend I think two of them are hard money lenders that lend money like they're multi-millionaires like it's not like I hit some guy that works at at uh Walmart who's got three kids you know so but I would like to pay pay them off it's funny nobody ever ever say it's funny you say that nobody's ever said that and I've always thought that I've always thought like what happens if what happens if something does get made like I could pay them off you know and and so I I would like to do that like I think that and I would love to do that I'd love to be able to go to the court and explain look can we restructure this like and I don't see that the US attorney would have a problem with I don't think so right but you know I haven't done that because I've been on probation and because while you're on probation you under the probation officer and there's nothing I can do at under probation cuz it's already listed how I have to pay so you'd have to go back to the court restructure the whole thing and I just want off probation and then I'll do it and I have to pay anyway no matter what I'm always paying I just like to pay them first yeah what I found really interesting was the escalation of crime that that you experienced throughout those years and I'm curious in situations like Breaking Bad where it starts out as just like a standard school teacher and then you just see like him devolve basically into someone who like ends up killing people and this and that like how applicable do you think situations like that are to just the greater public do you think you can take a perfectly normal person and then just slowly like a slippery slope get them down and down and down and down until they start doing worse things like if if you Contin to get away with this how bad do you think it could have gotten I mean I'm not really a violent person so I don't think it would have ever gotten to I don't think it ever would have ended up being violent but then violent people don't think that EI at the same time like I bet if you had told yourself that you'd be evading us Marshalls by driving away from them you know like you would just not have believed it right um I'll tell you um I have a friend who started making Ecstasy with a retired professor at UCLA so he started making ecstasy which was at that point it was a party drug right it was a rave were Raves back in the late ' 80s and then it slowly evolved into methamphetamine and then they were paying off um FBI agents and um uh and confidential informants and they were paying off like a a it just got progressively worse and worse and worse and the amounts he was making was getting higher and higher and eventually two of the confidential FBI confidential informant end up getting murdered and you can see the escalation of this guy who's just making ecstasy he's like I just felt like I was making ecstasy and then it became meth but it became meth because they owed this money they got ripped off by the FBI they was they were crooked FBI agents and then it just progressively got worse and worse and they keep getting deeper and deeper and before you know it people are ordering murders and it's like these are a bunch of [ __ ] high school kids I mean by this time they're 20 25 20 in their early 20s but it's like what just happened if you hear the story you're like how did this happen but I mean I've seen that a lot like some guy just starts off slow and then it gets very very serious and when money is involved people get crazy I think mine would just have continued to be fraud and fraud and fraud and I would have probably just continued to get fraud till I get caught everybody's always like well if you got into you know Australia you think you'd have you'd have been good I wouldn't have bro I I'd have done something I'd have gotten caught the other thing is that people always ask me like uh would you do it again you know or you know if you could change it would you change it like [ __ ] yeah I change it you know what I mean like I love those guys who no cuz it made me the person I am today are you insane like I did 13 years in prison like I you know my father died when I was in prison you know like I by the grace of God I got out just in time to watch my two years I was able to spent two years with my mother before she died bro you know what I'm saying like if I could change that and go back and you know and have been a decent son to a woman that didn't deserve to have a son like me like I would do anything to change that to have a relationship with my son yeah how were you keeping in touch with your parents during this time I know you're writing letters I wasn't I wasn't I wrote one letter and then I would call periodically you know if I we had gone on vacation to um Las Vegas I would go get you know i' go get a burner phone and then I'd call i' call from a pay phone they used have pay phones i' call from a pay phone and i' call and talk to my mom you know for a little bit and then that would be it would she ask questions yeah you know she wouldn't ask too many questions like I love you I hope you're safe are you okay like you know if you're not around then they think you're in danger it's like I'm not in danger she didn't want you to get caught it's hard to say I don't think she wanted me to get caught but she wanted to know I was safe and I always love that when people think well I just want to know you're safe like you think I'm safe in prison like I'm safer here and you know and the thing is I don't think she knew how I was living too like I'm not you know I'm not broke you know I'm driving brand new cars I'm going on vacation like I'm living very well but she doesn't know that you know so yeah it's a shitty situation now I'm really curious why the government never decided to reach out to work with you like you see Catch Me If You Can was a great movie where they were creating fake identities and then eventually the government figures this is a person we got to work with to revamp the and detect fraud why have they done this but that's a movie and that didn't really happen but I saw the thing I saw the thing at the end the CR but I read his book about how basically most of Frank abing nil's story is a lie most of the movie and which is nobody wants to hear that I know it's horrible because honestly one of my favorite movies yeah me too there's a a guy who wrote a whole book about how almost almost everything it's funny too you know what's funny is his real life is actually super interesting the two books he wrote which I read and the movie are not I'd say 10% of that is accurate really and then but if his actual he actually had a brother that was a con man too these interesting things that happened in his real life like some of it's true right like he did dress up like a PanAm right there were things that he did do some of it was true and he did like there are some similarities and so if you find out what really happened you're like okay I could see but honestly I'd say maybe 75% of that movie is not true but the the thing about the FBI and even though there's by the way there are videos of him talking about how he worked with the FBI but that's absolutely not true none of that's true he never how could they how could they say it and then at the the ending two say like he's worked with it how is it just a blatant lie who's checking I just believed yeah right people just believe it and nobody's checking and it's Hollywood and they assume it's true and so and and I get it like there are listen there are professional criminals that are similar to that where they'll pay some guy to go undercover and work with them but honestly the FBI is like the FBI Secret Service like they're not stupid like they know everything that I've done you know the only thing I I did unique things because I did them in combination with other scams and I did them on larger scale but you know they don't they don't need me and they couldn't stop a lot of the stuff that I do even to this day so there's nothing that you could say if they did XYZ that would have prevent I mean all this stuff from happening sure honestly if everybody had their their their home titles monitored you know by home title lock right yeah you would think like a like a credit report sort of thing or like that's what's so funny if you use your credit card every time you use it right you get the push notification right so um your so that's you don't have that for your title you know so if you if people signed up for something like home title lock you can go to your local County you can sign up for something where they notif you if there's a change so what's interesting about a company like home title lock is that they should be sponsoring you if they don't already they should be or you create your own company that does this I mean I think that would be genius what's interesting about them is what makes them better is that if something goes wrong and you're notified and you go hey wait a minute home tile loock just told me that my my deed was transferred or my mortgage was satisfied what's going they'll say hey this just happened is this you do you know about and you say no that never happened if the county notifies you what do you do you can't call the county they won't help you yeah you say they go oh well I don't know what happened it's not our department we can't even refer you to someone and you say okay well I'm going to call the police the police are going be like okay well we don't know what happened and something got transferred it sounds like you need to look into that we can't help you no crime that we know of has being committed but it's actually is happening home title lock when you tell them this is what when they say hey is this you and you say no it's not me they immediately pull the title they do the research if there's a crime they help you tell you who to file it with they will hire an attorney to corre to suit for quiet title to get your title back they'll contact like they'll do all that so that's why when I hear people say oh well you can go to your county and be notified yeah if you want to sign up and go to your county you can but what happens when they say hey your deed has been transferred and somebody just sold your house what are you going to do well I'm going to call the police but the police don't want to help you they don't even really understand the crime see but what they should do is like a credit report that you could freeze you should be able to freeze your home's public record or your home's title right uh and you and you put you know you have that notorized you put a code in there that only you know and if you want to remove that because you want to sell or refinance the house which people rarely ever do I mean every seven years or give or take then it's off but if the freeze is on no one could go and like anything you'd have to make exceptions for um for like a your for the government placing a lean on your house like what if you don't pay your taxes what if you pay but let's say you could get away with that um there's like there's 3700 counties in the United States 3700 right all of those counties 3700 in the United States would have to adopt this system to fix it and why would they it doesn't cost them anything you know why would the why would title companies want to fix it that's how they make money by selling you title insurance if they made it full proof we don't need title companies I have a question because along the entire way right this entire St you consistently had girlfriends yes how'd you do it what do you me what do you mean what was like okay because like you had this girlfriend and then this girlfriend you're talking to multiple girls at the same time you're talking to your wife and then you you had alongside her you had like three girlfriends you're also seeing at the same how are you such a ladies man stop it how did you do it are you serious Jack is serious he is 100% serious that is a serious question I mean I I'm Shameless give Jack advice are you Ser I'm Shameless I mean I would would like honestly I would walk up to I met my wife in the halfway house you know like I I just you just start flirting I you you want to know what the conversation was with her I literally said like after we talked a few times I said I feel like you're sweet on me a little bit and what's like we're flirting a little bit she goes no we're not and I went and I said I feel like we are she goes I said you know I said I have great intuition and she goes not in this case she goes look my wife wears cow cowboy boots one arm is sleeved out she ran a hog hunting tour guide service for six years this is a tough chick and she goes like this is a country girl she goes I make fun of guys like you she goes you're a city boy she goes this is never going to happen said I feel like it is and she goes and she goes you're delusional I said we'll see we'll see and then I kept texting her and she texts me back cuz we're friends and you know we're in the halfway house and see I'm not buying that though that's not intuition that right there is winning the heart of somebody and that's what you're good at that's not intuition I bet you she was honest that she wasn't into it prob she may not I was still still tell her she was she says that she wasn't interested and then she contacted me later and she's like look I'm coming to Tampa when we were out of the halfway house and she said do you want to have dinner I said yeah we we'll we'll have well she said lunch I said let's have dinner like a date and she goes well we can have dinner but it's not a date cuz you I'm not texting her you don't know I don't know but texting every couple days and and she goes um no no I don't want it to be a date she said it we're just friends we'll go as friends I said I don't want to go as friends she say why can't we be friends I said because I said there's nothing more useless than having a hot female friend I said the whole time you think we're building a friendship I'm just waiting for an opportunity to have sex with you and she went well then I guess we're not going to dinner I said I totally understand she goes you're serious I said absolutely I said I'm all filled up on my friend quota I I like you I'm I'm I'm always going to like you as more than a friend and if you don't then that's fine so we go back and this happens for two three weeks and finally she says okay we can call it whatever you want but she said but I'm telling you it's not a date I said whatever so we go to dinner and I remember my ex-wife when I was on my way there I got there a little early but I didn't want to be too early so I waited across the street I I'm in my car my ex-wife's like what are you doing this girl was on methamphetamine she just got out of prison she's told you she doesn't like you why are you going to dinner with her and I said I'm going to go to dinner I'm going to be charming and funny I said and at the end of dinner I said we're going to go to the movies I said and at the end of the date I'm going to try and kiss her and she goes and what if she says no I said if she pulls back and doesn't want to kiss me then I know I said and I will know okay I made a move it's a no that's it she's telling the truth that's it I said but I don't think she's going to I think she is interested I feel like she's flirting she say Matt you've been locked up 13 years you don't have a [ __ ] clue what what that what she's what's happening I said well we're it's like a Thursday night we're having dinner I think I do know and she goes okay you're crazy I get there she laughed at every single joke I made and we giggled and laughed and the whole thing and we went to and I'm extremely forward we went to go go to the movies Star Wars had just come out and we couldn't get in too it's crowded so we go back to the car got in the car and she goes um she so what do you want she goes so what do you want to do now and I go what do I want to do I said I want to make out in the car what do you want to do and she goes I don't know and I lean right into her and she said listen my stomach jumped into my my chest and I I said are you sure and she goes oh my God didn't pull back didn't anything boom we started kissing I haven't kissed like that since I was 13 years old my lips were chapped for days and we were like Inseparable after that so like it's like I'm Shameless because I felt like it was true and if she had said listen I'm not look that's not going to happen I would have been like okay that's fine that's fine but I'm not afraid to walk up to some girl in public and say hey what's up blah blah and if she's like no no okay I get it but then if she gives you your phone number something I don't know so I can imagine after 13 years of like not even talking to a girl in that way that's got to be pretty crazy oh I'm super nervous yeah you're nervous oh I mean I'm I'm nervous but I'm I mean nervous but I'm not but I'm like I said Shameless it seemed though as she res if she resisted it for like three weeks that that resistance was honest three weeks you said you months months okay that the the resistance was like she was steadfast in that but she's texting me where friends were texting it's a [ __ ] test she could be lonely I don't no it's a [ __ ] test she she's putting up the test I wouldn't listen to this guy I mean I yeah what do I know I know I would say we got to take notes from you in the end she said like she will now tell you I resisted being with him because she said I thought he was she I'd never met anybody like him like she say I'd never met anybody like you she said and I thought this guy's going to be successful and he's going to realize he can do better than me and he's just going to break my heart she so I don't this isn't the kind of guy I date you know she dates a guy that drives a forklift she dates a guy that goes hunting for a living she dates a guy that you know as a mechanic like that's the guys that she's dated her whole life and she said I knew you were going to be successful and she said I just thought there's no reason to even pursue anything like that's what she says now and you know it's funny because when she said that lot at first I used to think she was bullshitting but the truth is after getting to know her she's just not a bullshitter and I think that's what she really believed the whole time and now we're married I'm sure it it can't hurt to look kind of like a San Murphy I don't know who that is oh doesn't it doesn't he I was thinking that I was thinking that no look at look at Graham like the the F head on doesn't he kind of look like a little bit I don't know I couldn't help but think that for so much of this podcast that you look just like this guy he's a he's an actor and I think like uh a lot of girls kind of go crazy over Phoenix a little bit like if you said if you said you were related like you know a cousin or something I could see that maybe this guy you can't see maybe I don't know I kep thinking you look just like that guy kind of I don't know I see it think he's taller maybe I don't know I could kind of see it what dating advice do you have for J are you serious why don't you don't have a girlfriend no I don't have a girlfriend no aren't there dating history man yeah honestly I I don't know if I like necessarily need advice the only thing that I really struggle with is like a lot of the times I'll talk to girls that I'm not like super interested in what is this this is like a fleet or something oh what look at that what the [ __ ] is it I don't know it's like jumping around you see it yeah it's not a flea I feel like you guys aren't worried about me getting out of here oh sorry yeah we got to we got to worry about that okay uh Matt Cox thank you so much for coming on the iced coffee hour we really appreciate it you are so generous with your time and it means the world to us I'll drive you to the airport really get out here get out of here a little quicker uh thank you yeah absolutely I appreciate it I got to get a a picture with uh oh also if you're interested Macy wants to give you some food to go oh great okay I'll text her a yes on that sounds good and all of Matt's links down below thank you guys for watching until next next time