Far Right Clash With Police In Portsmouth | Novara Live

Welcome to Navara Live. Coming up tonight, masked farright thugs gathered in Portsmouth last night um in a protest organized by an associate of Tommy Robinson. Um also there's been a shock win for the AFD in the German elections um in a German state election, I should say. Um and protesters who helped organize the action at the reform conference. Um well I speak to one of them but though as you would have seen the protesters at that conference um were whacked with a walking stick. Um so we got lots of stories about the right and the far right tonight. Ash um and I'm going to get all of your analysis on these rather depressing developments. >> Could you not bring me on for like a good news day? >> Well we we have a good news story at the end because Westminster Council have given in and we will be allowed to stand up and drink a pint in Soho. And after tonight's show, I imagine I'll need many. >> You might. We all might need one. We've got far right, far right, far right, and then a pint. Um, the future of Britain. Uh, if you'd like to support our work, you can sign up at nvardia.com/sport. You can also listen to the show on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Like the video, subscribe to the channel if you haven't already, and don't forget to let us know what you think in the comments below. Um, straight into our first story. Those were some of the clashes that took place in Portsmouth in the early hours of this morning as police officers tried to stop protesters from blocking the transport of asylum seekers who'd arrived by dingy on Sunday. Um, police say officers were injured and vehicles damaged in the confrontation. Hundreds of people, mostly men, had gathered at the site, some dressed in black and wearing baclavas. They managed to block a main road until around 4:00 a.m., preventing authorities from taking um asylum seekers for processing. Um it was behavior the government has labeled intimidating and thuggish. This morning's protests mirror a number that took place on Saturday. Hundreds of men then, clad in black and wearing balaclavas, blocked multiple roads um at the port of Dover during what police described as a protest. Um, one group was seen marching through the town, chanting, "Who streets are streets and stop the boats?" while dozens of police officers trailed behind. Others shouted, "England till I die." Both protests were organized by Daniel Thomas, also known as Danny Tommo, uh, founder of a group called the Patriot Platform. Um, it seems to have taken some planning as well with Thomas, who comes from Portsmouth, posting this online late last week. >> All we've been walking down roads and waving flags and think that somehow it's going to save us. And I've been part of that for 10 years. And I've real come to the realization as many others that something else needs to occur. >> It's not about me. It's not about all of you. It's about every single woman and child in this country feeling safe. And right now, they do not. No matter where you are in the country, no matter which city or which town, everyone is now starting to feel it. Groups of men from all across the United Kingdom are joining up as one group of resistance. Something is about to go down and it's about to send a [ __ ] shock wave. >> Thomas has long been associated with farright circles after serving two years in prison for an attempted kidnapping. He quickly became a close associate of Steven Yakley Lenon, also known as Tommy Robinson. Earlier this year, Thomas was banned by France after organizing trips to Calala during which he filmed asylum seekers and harassed charity workers assisting them. Last month, he was banned from Dover, Ramsgate, and Folkston after targeting small boat arrivals. But in June, Thomas launched the Patriot Platform. This is not for everyone. People will either align with this or they won't. and those that align with it will be strong Christian men and women who understand the dangers that we're currently facing and understand how important it is to openly talk about these problems listen to people and have boots on the ground to re react to certain things you heard they're mentioning as being a Christian platforms my understanding is they were chanting stop the boats I mean also Christ is king so this is I mean they're trying to bring over a kind of fundamentalist Christian anti-migrant sort of you uh I suppose hybrid movement um that is very unpleasant and the do action appears to be the first carried out by the platform but it didn't necessarily get the reception Thomas was hoping for Nigel Farage appeared on GB news on Saturday we >> ask you about DOA today that's this been barricaded by hundreds of masked individuals what do you make of that what's going on >> disgusting nobody in any political protest whether they're on the left or the right should appear in balaclava It is wrong. >> It's sinister and worrying for people. >> It's horrible. >> There's families in cars on the waiting on the M20 to get some get on holiday and they see all this happening around them. >> Disgust them. >> This morning, Thomas interrupted an interview with reform Zia Ysef to discuss those comments from Faras. >> The the reason the Patrick Patriot platform has been created is not because of violence. We're not looking to intimidate anyone. Let me start by firstly explaining to you why the men are wearing masks. As you know and as Nigel knows, the left in this country target us massively. We have workingclass men who are brick layers, who are roofers, who are carpenters, who build the houses that you live in. They they build the roads that you drive on. They do all of that stuff. The reason they're covering their faces because we know they're going to be targeted. Okay? What happened in Dover on Saturday, okay? There was no violence. There was no arrests. The women and children were allowed through. The police were there. We we we were very straight and very clear to the police. We had lawyers on the phones. All the lawyers were on the phones and we made sure they spoke to the senior police officers. What Nigel Farage has done is not good. When you call people disgusting, yeah, you have to understand the the reasons of why this is happening. >> Politicians across the spectrum have largely condemned the two actions this weekend. restores. Rert Low, however, went a different way. >> More action, this time in Portsmouth. Credit to the patriots who turned out in numbers. It was peaceful. They were making their point. They have every right to do that. This is now becoming a national crisis. We've been speaking about this for a while. These are not asylum seekers. They're economic migrants. They are traveling across multiple safe countries. and our establishment is facilitating these people coming into our country. >> So that was Rupert Low again trying to outflank reform from the right and more qualified support appeared to come from Donna Jones. Um she's police and crime commissioner for Hampshire and Isa White speaking on BBC Breakfast. >> The government has described the protests overnight as thuggish and intimidating. What words would you use to describe them? Well, for a small proportion of the people that were protesting last night, yes, I would agree with the government's comments there. Those were in Bellaclavas. And you know, there were crimes committed and they will now be investigated. And I would not be surprised if there are arrests that come off the back of the uh uh footage that is captured as evidence last night. But that's a matter for the police to now work through in slightly slower time. Um, but there were hundreds of people there yesterday who were acting lawfully, who were there demonstrating their right to peaceful protest. And I think this is a real wakeup call to the government yet again that the British people are fed up with the lack of control of our borders, which is why we really need to be looking as a country about our membership of the European Court of Human Rights because that's why we can't turn the boats around and send them back to France. >> Ash, so there's two protests here. So, one, as far as I understand, seems like it was pre-organized in Dover, but organized sort of on secretive channels, so the police didn't know it was going to happen. Um, and then the one in Portsmouth presumably is more spontaneous in the sense that they didn't know this large boat of migrants was going to arrive and this this guy, this farright leader happens to be from Portsmouth. >> I think I think in terms of the second one, it's just a little bit trickier. So, obviously, I've not been involved with the far right, as you might be able to imagine, >> on the Patriot platform. Um, no, no, they've uh not let me not let me in. Um, but you can see parallels with certain kinds of left-wing activity. A parallel um I'm talking tactically rather than morally might be something like uh when there are immigration raids. And what you have is a network of individuals who know that a certain kind of activity takes place within their community. and you have a network which is well placed to kick into action the next time something happens. So >> I'm always wary of using words like spontaneous because the sort of claim of spontaneity is to say well this has just risen organically from the community and so it confers a sort of authent authenticity which we know because the left does it all the time. Actually what it means is that you've got networks which exist and are in communication. Um outside of the big protests which tend to take place um in and around symbols of power um when it comes to the action in do and the action in Portsouth I suppose one of the things that I do really want to point out is that the safety of women and children is constantly being invoked. We did this so that women and children could move freely. The first thing is that um funr run events around do were cancelled. People changed their plans, didn't go outside, um didn't do the things that they planned to do because seeing hundreds of balaclavid men blocking the road is inherently intimidating. So that claim is obviously for the birds. It's not something which makes people feel safer. Quite the opposite. The second thing is if you look at both Danny Tommo and people around him, what you find is a history of criminal convictions for violent acts. So for Danny Tommo, it was his involvement in an attempted kidnapping, I think about 10 years ago. Um, and from the reporting that I've read both in the right leaning Telegraph and the leftishleaning guardian, is that several of the men around him also have convictions for violence against women. And this isn't about um hypocrisy, right? This is often sort of um cited as a sign of these people are hypocritical. I actually think that those things are really inherent to what it is they're doing. What I think is notable about the blockade on do is that you can see that there are certain parallels or resemblances to the kinds of actions that have been undertaken by Extinction Rebellion or Just Stop Oil. The difference with Extinction Rebellion and Just Stop Oil is that Extinction Rebellion went out of their way to appear friendly and inclusive to the extent of saying we love the cops, come join us. the embrace of the color pink, um, arts, music, that kind of thing. And just stop oil. While I think that there was less of that sort of, um, almost music festival kind of aesthetic, the bright orange t-shirts and the fact you can see everybody's face was a way of trying to signal we're taking a radical and disruptive action, but we're trying to signal that we're not intimidating. This is a very different feel and the language around it is really different and the message around it is really different because it's appealing to a kind of much more militarized um kind of espree decor. I think that that's why you've got this sense of there being a uniform. Danny Thomas talking about discipline. We don't want the drinkers. We want you to be disciplined. We want you to do this and we want you to do it like that. Um, you've got the sort of citing of of Christ is king more as a battle cry than it is an actual articulation of faith. Don't think that Christ was someone who would have joined in in the demonization of asylum seekers, though it's a long time since I've read my King James Bible. >> So, this is kind of a crusades type thing. >> It's a Crusades type thing. Um, and I think that tells you something about how the far right are looking at some of the tactics that you'd associate with the far left, but what's different about it is the centrality of a kind of masculinity which I think is inseparable from violence. Let's um look at why this is happening in Portsouth because it's unusual um for this kind of thing to happen in Portsouth because it's unusual for boats to arrive um in in Portsmouth and it seems that this reflects a new a new route sorry for boat crossings having opened up. This is a a graphic from the BBC um which as you can see the sort of traditional route for boats has been from Cala to do a very short distance um and this was there was a very large boat that landed in Portsmouth um that had taken off from Sherborg um and that is a much wider crossing so it took 10 hours to cross. I think much of it was um sort of accompanied by the French Coast Guard um who were sort of I suppose watching to to make sure nothing went too wrong. Um so I suppose that's relevant that it could open up sort of these conflicts across more of England's south coast. Um obviously what you always hear from the government which is true is that small boat crossings are down. So you can see here 2026 there have so far been 16,500 people um who have crossed this year um which is 43% down compared to last year. Um and the lowest since um 20 well I presume 2021. the lowest since this the small boats um really began coming over which was during co if I remember correctly. Um Ash, I mean how much of this does obviously from lots of those politicians you heard the argument that you know I mean stop the boats has been a cry from nearly every political party. So these guys who are sort of taking their direct action can say we're just sort of trying to enforce what you all say you want to happen. Um to what extent does the fact that the number of small boats has declined matter? Um to what extent does the changing routes now I presume the changing routes are because the police are being more effective at stopping crossings near Calala. So people are going for a longer more dangerous route because that you know it's harder to police the whole of that coast than it is just to police the coast near Calala. um yeah what what do you see as the interaction between the numbers and the nature of boat crossings and these sort of farright actions? >> So the first thing to point out is that the salient of immigration goes up in relation to media coverage and not straight numbers. Now of course media coverage can reflect straight numbers but it doesn't only reflect straight numbers. So there was an article in the EFT I think a couple of years ago now which looked at the moment at which David Cameron made the promise to cut immigration to this country to the tens of thousands. And what this study uh found was that when he did that coverage of immigration doubled and what you see is a sort of commensurate rise in the salience of immigration. And so when it comes to small boats, there's no doubt that there was an increase of small small boat crossings um since the pandemic and also since other routes for irregular migration got tougher, right? So it gets displaced onto small boats in particular. Um and what you had was a particular kind of mediatization of the the phenomenon. Um, you had Nigel Farage just day after day after day going to Kent, going to Doa, filming himself, filming the boats and mainstream media followed. And so there's always been this element of it being a visual spectacle because it is so visual. It's much more visual than say um people who have um sequestered themselves aboard uh lorries going through the Channel Tunnel, right? It's certainly a lot more visual than visa overstayers, which we know are the most common kind of irregular migration into this country. Um, and I think that that's part of how it became something of a circus. So, I remember when the BBC started building up their coverage and you'd have these very excited reporters being like, I'm on the front line and nothing behind them is happening, but it's this sense of of there's something to see here. And then when there would be something to see, if there was a small boat, like honestly, like some of these reporters were absolutely chumescent about it. Um, and so that I think that feeds back into this thing of it's the coverage, not the numbers. So small small boat crossings have gone down. Immigration overall has gone down since Labour came in in 2024. That hasn't done anything to the salience of immigration or the salience of small boats because it's not about numbers. It's about how much you see the image. So if you think about Father Ted, the difference between small and far away, we're thinking here about the difference between big and up close. >> I suppose they would say the the slogan was stop the boats. The slogan wasn't reduce the boats. And I suppose that why this has become such a divisive issue. I mean, it was because there are a lot of political entrepreneurs on the right who are trying to exploit it, but also because so many people in the public can't understand why >> the government can't stop dingies from they're like, I don't care if you have the amount of dingies crossing, like they're dingies. Stop them crossing. Now, obviously, there are a lot of international laws which mean that you you can't really do anything about it without agreement from France, but so that's one of the reasons why this is not going away in in in British politics. But look is, you know, if if you want to think about, you know, why that is is that it was a conservative government which went out there with stop the boats emlazed on the lectern, right? It's a pretty firm commitment. Um, you've got >> K Star coming in and while he doesn't necessarily say the threeword slogan, he said, um, well, he didn't have the he didn't have the lectern. Um, he doesn't do anything to disrupt that framing. All right. And as you say, he uses the slogan. and he reinforces it. It's kind of like making a promise that you know is never going to be fulfilled, right? It's governments who are setting themselves up for failure. So it's not reduce the boats. It's not you know deal with irregular immigration. It's something which you know is going to be impossible. >> Yeah. If they said police the boats >> because they are they are >> sm I suppose his main one was smash the gangs and actually to some degree it does seem like they're actually having more success at that than I I assume. I thought the coast is so big you're not going to be able to get numbers down like but they they have got numbers down like that. It looks like the smuggers are picking new routes because it is harder to go from Cali. So he obviously hasn't destroy it does seem like to some extent the gangs have been a little bit smashed >> disrupted. >> Disrupted but yeah stop the boats was just a stupid thing to pledge if you don't actually have a plan to do it because now these guys you know horrific awful as they are can say well you said stop the boats and they haven't stopped. But I think this is also I know I keep talking about mediatization but I do think it's really important is that I see parallels um between this and what we're now seeing whenever you have the allegation of violent crime being perpetuated by someone who is non-white were still an asylum seeker. Right? These have the potential to become these huge um catalysts for violent disorder depending on the content of the story, what else is going on in the news and sort of how viral it becomes online, which is I think giving a a misleading impression of what the country is like, what's happening in the country, the levels of violent crime, which are, you know, on the way down. They're certainly not on the way up. Um and I think it's the same with small small boats. It's now become this visual where one is too many, right? One is enough to sort of be a spark which leads to a confflgration of violent disorder. And when I looked at the footage from Portsouth last night, I thought this isn't going to be the last time. It's probably going to be one of the smaller ones that we're likely to see. And I think it's highly likely that there will be one further down the line which is um a catalyst for serious violent disorder of the kind that we've seen in Southampton in Southport in the north of Ireland as well. >> Germany's farright party alternative for Deutsland or the RFD has been steadily gaining ground in German elections but this weekend it scored its biggest victory yet. The party has won the state parliamentary elections in East Germany's Saxony Anhalt. Um the AFD's leader in the state, Uric Siegman drew thousands to rallies across Saxony Anhalt in the run-up to the election while running a savvy social media campaign. As a result, he could soon become the first far-right politician to lead a state since Germany's Nazi dictatorship. The election saw a historically high turnout of almost 80%. Um and the AFD won by a significant margin. It took 44% of the vote while the Christian Democrats um its major competitor and the party of German Chancellor Friedick Mertz saw its vote slashed in half compared to the 2021 state elections and when it managed to govern Saxony unhalt in coalition with the SPD the social democrats or the SPR the social democrats and the Greens and the AFD was also the favorite party across all segments of voters. It's pretty extraordinary including those that have sometimes leaned um towards more centrist or leftwing parties. So 39% of women voters opted for the AFD. More than twice the proportion opting for the party at the federal elections last year. Um 41% of 18 to 24 year olds also voted for the AFD. Um again about twice the nationwide share that the party took from that group last year. Um and double the proportion that voted for the AFD in the last regional election 5 years ago. Meanwhile, blue collar workers and others engaged in physical work voted overwhelmingly for the far right party with almost 60% of them picking the AFD. Um and while the farright may have won this election, um it doesn't automatically um grant them power. With just 39 seats in Saxony Anhalt's parliament, the AFD is free short of the 42 seats needed for an outright majority. But there are limited possibilities for an alternative coalition to rule instead. So if the five opposing parties or the five other parties join together respecting what's called the firewall, which is an informal agreement between political parties to keep the farright out of power, um it would have 44 seats and the ability to govern. Um obviously that would be pretty fragile coalition. Um, and it gets even tougher because one of those parties, um, the Sara Vargan Connect Alliance or BSW, um, has said it won't respect the firewall and has ruled out a pact with the Christian Democrats. The BSW, um, interesting party, socially conservative and anti-immigrant, but economically left. So, it's a populist party, but saying it's a different kind of populist party. Um, it has said it would enter a deal with the AFD and both the AFD and the BSW agree for example on ending sanctions against Russia and particularly Russian gas. Um, the AFD thinks it might not even need that though. It thinks it has other options. So on the basis of there being by far the most popular party in the state, they've said the democracy demands other parties work with it in the state parliament or risk undermining the will of the people. And so they're sort of demanding, you know, all the parties consider working with them. Um its leader Oric Segment has also said he would be prepared to call fresh elections to secure the majority needed to carry out um the AFD's program. Um so what are those policies? Well, Germany's state governments are constrained um by the federal federal parliament. Obviously this is just a a state government. Um but they still have significant power um including control of culture, education and policing. Um, and in its policy program for the state, the AFD has reaffirmed its commitment to restricting access to abortion, beginning mass deportations via detention centers for irregular migrants, and building so-called citizen patrols, um, which some are described as militias as a wing of the state security architecture. But power in Saxony onhalt could also be a stepping stone to success in federal elections, so nationwide elections. The AFD is already the most popular party across Germany and its victory this weekend is having an immediate impact on Germany's national politics. The country's deeply unpopular chancellor Friedrich Mertz is under increasing pressure following the Christian Democrats abysmal result with voices calling for him to be replaced um growing within his own party. Um speaking earlier today, Mertz said this about the AFD win. This shakes our party to its very foundations. We cannot simply carry on as before, nor can I, nor can the federal government. We have a strong constitution. We have all the tools to defend the constitution against a right-wing extremist state government. But our party system is undergoing a tectonic shift. Um earlier today I spoke to Isabella Baver. She's professor of economics at the University of Massachusetts Amhurst. Um she's the author of the upcoming book Anti-Fascist Economics and she spoke to me from Germany. I began by asking her about the significance of these results. >> It's hugely significant. It's the first time since the Nazi era that an extremist farright party um has won an election on the state level in a way where they might well form the government which would be hugely consequential for German democracy. They would have access to all sorts of security protocols. They would have a seat at the table in the second chamber of the parliament and so on. Um but also in terms of where the country is at um the the fact that you know we have been seeing this in the polls for months and months and months and yet it's not been possible to prevent this outcome and quite to the contrary we have actually seen this massive surge in voter participation and particularly people who used to not go to vote 170,000 people I think um uh uh that used not to vote voting for the AFD so we really have seen this you know mass mobiliz ization of people um uh supporting this um this yeah party with very clear neo-Nazi elements. >> Talk to me about this the state. So this is in Saxony Anhalt. Um how representative of this how representative is this state of of Germany as a whole or there sort of particular characteristics of this part of Germany which you know means that we'd predict the AFD would be more popular there than elsewhere. >> This is part of a national trend right. We see the AFD um polling the strongest um uh nationwide. Um we see that um uh the the current government is um really um slashing uh uh the vafer state with all sorts of reforms that they are planning. Um we have the situation of massive military um expenditures and austerity pressure on um social social welfare spending um which all of this is really a toxic um combination. Um and then on top of it we have this crisis of the German economic model um where you know the the industries that used to not only be um really key for exports but also key for the the identity of Germans and key for manufacturing jobs um are declining and are no longer competitive in the ways in which they used to be because of the e vehicle revolution. Um so that this is really part of a you know national trend. um and um in a way like kind of prefigures what might come at the national level, which is part of what makes it so incredibly scary. And as far as I understand, this is not the first time that the AFD have come first in a state election, but this is the first time they've done quite so well. So 44% is the highest they've ever pulled and also the first time that they have a plausible route to taking power in a state. And that's because they got such a high vote share. It's also because there is another party the Sarraan connect party that has entered or will enter the state parliament I suppose after these elections. Now the Saravagen connect party or the BSW was part of Delinka. So it was part of the left party but split away. Um now this party seems like it might be you know the party to hand the AFD a state for the first time ever. um all the other parties are adopting the firewall policy of saying no coalitions with the far right or or sort of no collaboration at all with the far right. So talk to us about this. What is the the SAR var connect party? Why has a you know a party that considers itself in many ways leftwing? Why is it suggesting that it is the one that will break with all the other parties and help the AFD into power? for many years it's been very difficult for parties to win upwards 40% right so um you know it's it's I mean it's historical for the AFD but it's also like in the context of this you know enormous fragmentation of parties it's it's a very very very strong result um in terms of the BSW I mean it's really tragic in a way um you know it's it's this party that um split off the left party on the premise that we needed um uh you um uh cultural conservative conservative um policies and at the same time progressive economic policies. Um and this is now um becoming you know the kingmaker potentially for the AFD. We don't quite know yet but actually yesterday um as they went on on public TV for the first debate um the the person representing the BW was really you know like catering to the AFD. Um so um it seems that their understanding is is somehow um that uh you know being against the status quo um is is everything. So you you're rather with the far right and against the status quo than than um with with the other parties. Um but it's also in a way an existential struggle for this party at this point. Right? They didn't make it into the national parliament. Um and now suddenly um they hold power to who is going to form the government in in Saxony Anhild. um at this historic um uh uh uh uh moment. So in a way it's it also seems like a bit of a you know um cry for importance at a moment where the party really has has drowned in in insignificance. I suppose would they say it's a rock in a hard place because either because suppose there are also dangers in forming a coalition of every party other than the AFD because if the AFD want to say that everyone other than them is the same if you have a coalition which is literally the conservatives the center left the far left the greens you know everyone but the AFD then sort of does that make it harder to oppose the AFD elsewhere I mean you know I don't want to overly rationalize their position but that's the argument they would make one presumes >> the situation is of course that the government that could still be formed without the AFD is bound to be incredibly fragile, right? I mean, it's going to be like a hodgepodge of parties that don't agree on anything other than that they don't want the AFD in government and that is not a good starting point. I mean we saw this with the previous national government where we had the social democrats and the Greens um and the Liberal neoliberal party um in a coalition which was still less of a stretch than what we would see um now on the state level in in in Saxony Anhard. So in that sense it's really this you know um uh vhimma type of scenario where you have such an extreme fragmentation of parties that um to hold the line you need to form coalitions that are basically impossible. But I think in a way this also shows that the firewall tactic um didn't work. Um I mean I think it's it's right to have the fireball. It's right to, you know, be very clear that one is not joining forces with a party that is rightwing extremists and that has very clear neo-Nazi elements. Um, but at the same time, you need more than a firewall. You basically need escape routes. You need an alternative vision. You are seeing in poll after poll that people are fed up, that they can't take the status quo anymore, that the status quo is unbearable, that they have lost any sense of hope for the future. It's really kind of a, you know, sense of futurelessness and then all that you're offering is a firewall to protect the status quo. This is not going to work, right? You need a vision that points to a better future, a better presence, but that is a democratic um uh improvement um of the situation rather than leaving the alternative to the status quo um to be a monopoly of the extreme right which is what has been happening um in in in the previous years. um combined with this you know harsh social policy playbook combined with this massive expansion of military spending um uh combined um with um this implosion of the economic model it's it's it's just um you know a very very desperate situation. Let's end actually by talking about this concept of neo-Naziism because I suppose the second half of the 20th century, Germany was a country where everyone pointed to and said sort of they've dealt with their history. You know that they they haven't sort of brushed the Nazi stuff under the carpet. There are memorials everywhere and every politician has to say that it was, you know, the worst thing that ever ever happened and there was a huge taboo about, you know, anything associated with Nazism at all. Now, this idea that there's a party that's doing well that has neo-Nazi elements, has the has the taboo about Nazism sort of ended in in Germany and people are actually reconsidering it, or do the people who support the AFD consider the neo-Nazi charge a smear. So, they say, "Well, I obviously I support the AFD, but I would never ever support anything associated with the Nazis, and so the people calling it calling them Nazis are the ones who are wrong." Or are people saying, "Actually, you know, maybe the Nazis weren't so bad." I mean what's the what's the conversation at the moment? >> I think there is a big issue with the memory culture right where you know this like celebration of guilt can almost reside in this you know clean washing because we are constantly saying it happened here it was so terrible it will never happen here again and meanwhile we are not paying attention to all the things that are happening that are actually you know pointing to um a pretty pretty clear reemergence of a fascist threat. So that that's I think one part of the story. Um another part of the story is that the AFD very clearly is changing the narrative about history. Right? So they are kind of you know um uh having a very clear agenda that we should have less emphasis on uh uh on on the Nazi era in in in in school education in history. Um they are kind of you know like we we should be able to say we are German, we are proud of it. One of the slogans of the um AFD and Saxony Anhide is actually um think German, you know. So there is this um kind of you know um sense of our national pride has been um suppressed and now finally you know you're allowed to um be be German and be proud of it again. um which is a bit I mean obviously very different context but I think there's a certain similarity with the whole discourse around beness and you know like what you're allowed to say and what you're not allowed to say and all of this. So um there's a resonance of this where I think um a lot of people um do um I mean do do feel a sense of liberation in in in this you know I can be German and be proud of it. Um which is in a way like a backlash against the kind of memory culture that we have been um uh uh practicing. Um but at the same time I would really warn against the idea that you know all the people who have been voting for the AFD are deep down neo-Nazi or all of them you know are deeply um revisionist in terms of history um or all of them are racist or something like this. Right? I think um that we have to recognize that um e the the the the extreme forms of economic insecurity, shocks um you know I mean these are people that lost everything in 1990, lost their jobs, lost their you know their communities, people moving away um lost their you know their their sense of security, their sense of um where they belonged. Um and then now they they are faced with this um implosion of the you know um new economic model. So they are kind of um aiming for some sort of um uh uh vision that gives them um security that gives them a sense of selfworth which then is built on this us versus them on this you know hate um based scapegoating um uh kind of rhetoric. Um but um I I wouldn't say that you know um this is the only way to reach those people. Quite to the contrary. I think what we need is um is is is is really an alternative economic vision to show that there is a possibility for a better future that is not going with the extreme right. >> That was Isabella Vber speaking to me earlier today. Um, the AFD may soon make history by taking power in Saxony unhelp and becoming the first far-right party to run a state since the Nazi period, but they're far from the only farright political force in the ascendancy. Um, in Europe, Jordan Bardella, president of France's farright national rally, um, spoke at Reform UK's conference in Birmingham this weekend. The waves of migration Europe is experiencing today are only the beginning. in London, in Paris, in many of our great European cities. Too many citizens no longer recognize the country in which they grew up. Sometimes sometimes they feel like stranger in their own country. They see insecurity rising. They see their identity changing and their way of life being replaced by foreign way of life that are sometimes incompatible with our values. Next year, France will hold presidential elections and the National Rallies candidate, Marine Le Pen, has consistently been at the top of the polls for the race despite being found guilty of embezzlement from the European Union to the sum of 4 million euros. Um, that was in 2024. Now, across Europe, around half a dozen farright parties now participate in national governments. In Italy, Georgia Malone's government has just become the longest serving in the history of the Italian Republic. Um, normally Italian governments sort of very weak, don't last very long. hers has done pretty well um in terms of longevity. Um her party, the brothers of Italy, is right-wing with a fascist history, but the arrival of the farright challenger Futuro Natali has pushed her policies to even more extreme positions. Um governments in the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Finland, Sweden, and Croatia all rely on farright support to pass laws. Meanwhile, farright opposition parties are growing in strength, too, becoming the second largest party in at least six countries, including the Netherlands, Poland, and Portugal. Um, Ash, uh, yeah, the far right has been the theme of tonight's show sort of accidentally. >> Uh, this doesn't look very good, does it? >> No. And as I was, uh, listening to Isabella Vber, I was thinking somewhat glumly that maybe you just can't escape the pull of history. So when you think about the rise of the Nazis uh, in Germany in the 20th century, there's obviously a lot of things which precede that. So um you have the development of sort of proton Nazi you know hardright uh citizen militias right like the frycore who were responsible for the killing of Rosa Luxembourg for for instance um you had a story of national humiliation which was of course after World War I in the treaty of Versailles and you also had the long tale of a global financial crisis. Um now not all of those things are um exactly the same in the present day but certain things stack up. One is that you definitely have the long tale of a financial crisis of prosperity of progression which just never came back and the feeling of quite a profound breakdown in the social contract. Um the second thing is that when you're looking at AFD policies which include that sort of you know citizen security force is that I think you can plausibly say this has resemblance to a sort of far-right militia of of the kind uh that we saw in the 20th century and I think rather than there being a sense of national humiliation coming at the defeat of a war obviously the far right say that national humiliation came in the form of mass immigration. I would actually maybe put it a little bit differently because yes, the sort of headline figures are big, right? So, particularly when you think about Germany 2015 2016, you're thinking about that um accommodation of a million refugees, that's a big number. When you think about the sort of transformation of the national complexion, it's actually not right not huge. It's you're not seeing the kind of large scale ethnic replacement that the far right like to talk about and you're certainly not talking about um a sort of eradication of host culture. I think what's true is that you are feeling a loss of collective pride, purpose and progress. And you can in my view really locate that within neoliberalism which is industry leaves, purpose leaves, the heart gets ripped out of community and what replaces it is empty forms of consumerism. you've got uh the part you know widened participation uh into higher education which then means that lots of young people leave and they move to the cities and you've got this broadening cultural gulf between those who leave and those who stay and I think that into that comes social media algorithmic tailoring of people's feeds and the sense that we all live in the same country that we all have to deal with the same things really does break down and weaken and so This gonna be something which might upset some of our viewers, but it's something which I do think to be true. For me, my friends, many of our viewers, the genocide in Gaza feels incredibly present and incredibly up close because it's a live stream genocide. And I think that it is a huge um moral motivator in terms of political action. I can think of people who don't live in London, didn't go to uni, got a very different kind of job from me, who feel the same way and feel that sense of I know every new horror as it unfolds when it comes to migrant sex crimes. >> So, we are living in two different information universes and I don't want to talk about things as moral equivalents and I don't want someone to take this away and you know I know that people are going to say, "Oh, this is Ash's, you know, trip to the right." What it means is that um you've got countries which really have no unity whatsoever and then all of that gets blamed on immigration. All of that gets blamed on ethnic change. But I think that there is something which the right sometimes says which I think is sometimes true which is that sort of cultural bifurcation, right? What happens when you have um that kind of de-industrialization, that weakening of social bonds, that weakening of culture, you've got lots of young people living in cities, you have a very different kind of point of view in politics. is that I think it is sometimes true that you've got young people who are more interested in um I guess issues around social equality um and are interested in the struggles of people in geographically far away places more so than their experience more so than the experiences of people who live maybe 100 or 200 miles away. I think that's true. Um, so yeah, I know that none of that is very um up in Adam, but I think that moments like this you should actually take that time to reflect a little bit deeper about what's gone on and not just reach for the pat answer. >> Yeah. I mean, it also is, you know, obviously I don't think white people are being replaced, right? But but the proportion >> making up 50% of this hosting duo right now. >> Yeah. But the proportion of the the the change the demographic change in Europe has been very fast sort of historically. So in Germany it went it was 10% foreignb born population to now over 20% in 10 years. So that is that's historically >> but but the thing is is that you sort of go what does that what does that mean in terms of what you're seeing in your community dayto-day right? You know I I think that this is the sort of like is this big or is this close up right is that I don't think that white people are being eradicated. I think that there is a hyper vvisibility attached to people that aren't white. If I if I had a penny for every time someone told me I was the only white person in my school, right? I'm like, numerically, I don't think this is possible. But I get >> Oh, sorry. I thought you were saying people were saying that to you. I was like, and now I'm super conf say tell you they're the only white person >> that they that they were. And I was like, I just don't think that's true. I think what is true is that there were a number of people of color which made you feel very aware of how many there were >> right might have even been you know 50 plus 1%. But in this country, you know, even if you're in East London or whatever, you weren't the only one. But, you know, there is this sort of hyper vvisibility aspect of it. Um, which means that again, it feels bigger than it is, but it's sort of our our sense of of what's going on in the field of vision is a bit distorted. >> Yeah. I mean, I'm very I love I love the kind of new labor style multiculturalism. Like I went to a school where I think I think it was probably like third white, third Asian, third black and like I we sung songs about you know like paint the world with all the different colors and we sung the Eid songs, the Dvali songs and the Christian songs. So don't get me wrong, I love all of this stuff, but I suppose the change has there has been a change. You know, when people think sort of like the where is this far right come from? You know, we have a more multicultural liberal society than we've ever had in many ways. And along with social media, economic stagnation, it has provoked a counter reaction which is like unpleasant and scary. I think you have to recognize both things. I do and I also think that this is one of the things that you have to reckon with which is very difficult is that I think that immigration has been blamed for all of that loss of progression and prosperity and the betterment of people's lives. >> What that doesn't necessarily change is that you've continued to have immigration in a context of economic hardship which is ultimately to the benefit of the far right. And so for me obviously the kind of change that I want to see is the meaningful economic change which uplifts everybody's conditions but I think that there is some sort of dodging or illision that's done where they go well this is the real problem which sort of neglects the ongoing impact of what happens when you combine immigration in a context of economic hardship >> because that was the that was also the new labor thing right which is you had economic growth you had high levels of immigration you didn't have social media and the whole thing kind of you just kept kept moving. We keep that going. >> Yes and no. But >> obviously there was backlash, but >> it certainly wasn't at um crisis levels that we see now. >> Yeah. Um let's talk a bit about the French left and I suppose the French elections coming up because I mean this I I've seen some polls that made me think the French left is in a difficult situation, an unenviable one. Um because in the presidential elections next year, Le Pen is pretty much sure to come first in the first round, but it's up in the air who she will face in the second round. So this is first round polling. Sal Pen comes out on 32%. Um Edoir Phipe um and Melanchon compete for second place. So Melanch is obviously the candidate of the left. Edoir Philipe is the candidate of the center. He served as prime minister for three years under Mccron. Um now obviously the left will be campaigning for Melanch. Um that's also an outcome that Le Pen might prefer. So this is uh a poll obviously just one poll but in a hypothetical head-to-head and a recent poll puts Phipe only four points behind Le Pen. So Le Pen wins in all of these situations but it's very close when it's against Phipe who's the centrist candidate. Um against Melishon Le Pen would be on 66% and Melanch on 34%. Now that's as I say that's just one poll. This is not to say you know I I suppose we'll get some French leftists on and talk about this because this is genuinely interesting. What do you do in a situation where you've got the candidate who you clearly think is the best for France and sort of would have the economic policies that offer the real kind of change that Isabella Baba was talking about in that interview but where I mean Le Pen is clearly hoping that Melan is number two instead of Edar Phy one would assume >> I don't know what >> so I did a little bit of research before this because I didn't want to come in here and just what do the vibes say? Yeah. So I tried to have a look at um what level of uh sort of volatility do you see um as you get closer to the first round um of the French presidential election and then you're into the second round. And of a sample of four presidential elections, which admittedly is not a very big sample, what it kind of showed is that you can have very big leads which can narrow quite dramatically. Where that tends to happen, however, is where you've got an incumbent. >> So you've got a situation where if it was Melanchon versus Le Pen, neither one of them are political unknowns. Both of them have run for the presidency multiple times. Le Pen's been in the second round multiple times. Um, and it's also, you know, not the case that either one of them is sort of seen, I think, as a establishment figure, but they're both more known. Um, so I don't think you you can sort of say, all right, well, you're nailed on for that sort of um, you know, massive narrowing of the gap because there's an incumbent. Um, this is sort of uncharted territory. So it actually it might not narrow that much. What's interesting to me about the sort of internal um effect of LFI Le France and music at the moment is that someone who I know went to their sort of big summer conference and they're talking very seriously both in terms of membership and the deputies who are sort of their equivalent of MPs talking very seriously about government right they're talking really seriously about a capital flight they're talking really seriously about you know bond markets they're talking really seriously about what the approach to China is going to be. Now, you can read that two ways. You can read that in one way, which is we're overdetermining from what the polling looks like more than a year out. Um, and the people who are in the know don't really think that matters. They think there's going to be a lot more movement. The other way in which you could read that is that it could be their equivalent of corbinism in 2019 where they're thinking about everything other than how to fight the next election that's in front of them. >> Yeah. I mean I mean obviously it's a while to these elections we'll be talking about this loads. Um and I think in the first round sort of those head-to-head polls will obviously clearly be sort of a massive deal as they always are in the primaries in the United States. So we'll come back to that. Tickets are available for our upcoming downstream IRL event and with cultural fearist Katherine Lou. She'll be talking about her new book titled traumatized the new politics of public suffering at Earth Theater in Hackne on the 21st of this month. Um Ash, you will be hosting this conversation. Uh what can attendees expect? >> I'm really excited about this one. So I'll be talking with Katherine Lou about her new book where really what she's getting into is the way in which trauma has become this sort of commodified experience particularly within the sort of uh framework of a social media attention economy in which we all have to cultivate a certain personal brand in order to elevate ourselves and have a kind of cultural cache. So that's one of the things that she's going to be talking about. But as you know for our downstream IRLs, we don't just have one big hitter, we have two. So, uh, Aaron Bastani will be talking to Darren McGarvey aka Loki, who is a Scottish, uh, rapper and writer, who will be talking about the way in which lived experience has become, um, obviously more valuable as a sort of cultural commodity. And it means that people who are vulnerable for reasons of class, for reasons of things that have happened to them in their lives, for reasons of mental health, for reasons of race are encouraged to lead with their lived experience by certain institutions who are one way or another saying this is how you can get ahead and at the same time what it really means to have that lived experience means that you're punished for it. So the risers uh fast, the fall is far. Um, I'm really excited about this. There was a little bit of controversy on Instagram when we announced the title. Um, but not scared of a little controversy. >> Uh, tickets available from the link uh in the description. Uh, will be one not to miss. British politics can sometimes feel like a battle of the generations. Young people on the whole on average are more likely to care about climate change, support migrants rights, and vote for Labor or the Greens. Old people are on average less likely to care about climate change and more likely to vote for right-wing parties. Again, on average, this is not to say there aren't very right-wing young people and very leftwing old people, but on average, that's the case. And footage from reform's conference on Friday has become a grim representation of just how toxic such a divide can become a young climate protester who interrupted Nigel Farage's conference speech having her hair pulled her mouth like grabbed really really aggressive. um by conference attendance attendees who looked on the elderly side um and she was hit with a crutch. Now a younger or another young female I should say another young female protester was hit with a walking sticker. She was pushed to the ground. Now remember, Reform UK is actively campaigning to abandon net zero, to end all subsidies for renewable energy and to expand fossil fuels, to give even more licenses in the North Sea. Now, those are policies which will disproportionately screw over younger generations. Um, but if you make that point at a reform conference, you might just get battered with a walking stick. And when Nigel Farage made no effort to calm his militant crowd, >> this is a continuity government. Oh, we got a screamer. We got a screamer. We got a screamer. Ah, lovely. Oh, dear. Oh, dear. These are the benefits of a university education, folks. Yeah, I bet she's studying. Tell us, love. Is it sociology? Is it? Yeah, I bet it is. That poor young girl, she looked like she was going to do herself an injury, didn't she? Well, there's a saying I've got for that. You know what it is, don't you? Boring. Boring. Boring. >> I still haven't quite worked out why they had boring. Boring. Boring. Ready to be flashed. >> Because they knew it was going to happen. Oh, and and the boring boring boring was always specifically going to be to the >> in case there was a protester. >> Right. So, because I hadn't watched the whole speech, I was wondering if this was a new slogan from reform. And I was like, I don't really >> replace education, education, education. >> Right. We should have had this conversation before we went live. But anyway, thank you very much for that context there. That was very important. Um, again, in terms of the generational battle here, I know there are lots of people who really don't like it when we talk about the idea that there might be generational conflict because obviously if you're a older left-wing person of whom there are thousands and millions, right? That will piss you off. But I mean, the generational aspect there wasn't particularly subtle, right? You saw the the young climate protesters protesting about climate getting dragged by older people sort of basically putting their hand in her mouth and then Nigel Farage specifically mocking them as students university university students who probably studying something silly. Um in terms of Farage sort of saying, "Oh, she looked like she might be getting hurt there." Um and and not condemning it. Now, someone might say, "Okay, maybe he couldn't tell exactly what had happened um from where he was standing. Maybe he didn't quite understand the violence that those protesters were subjected to. However, even with the benefit of close-up video, reform politicians still defended the actions of their members and fans. I just wanted to just get your reaction to how some of your delegates responded to one of the hecklers, who I accept irritatingly, although exercising their democratic rights, uh, responded during Mr. Faraj's speech yesterday. Just have a look at this. heavy-handed, literally disproportionate. >> What would you expect them to do? >> Well, they could have just let her out rather than attacking her. >> Right. >> They probably didn't need to be probably didn't need to be clubbed with a crutch. >> Let me think how sympathetic I am towards that person. >> Not at all. >> She got clubbed with a crutch. Hang on a minute. You're really saying that a climate wherever she is. So a far left activist doesn't really matter who she is. She doesn't need to be a far left activist. A far left who infiltrate infiltrates a party conference stands on a chair screams abuse at the leader of a party tries to disrupt a party conference and then she and then she's moaning that a pensioner a pensioner knocked her on the head with a crutch. I mean come on, you get alive. Like you take your chances, don't you? He's literally being surrounded by all of those have zero sympathy. >> Well, clearly so. >> Such a slippery [ __ ] Obviously stands for nothing, by the way. Like he's he's had he he used to be sort of on the kind of liberal wing of the conservatives and now as a sort of massive careerist is out here saying that like grabbing someone's hair, like the videos that look so horrible, like really yanking someone's hair, like covering their mouth with your hands and whacking them with a crutch. That's just nice. What did she expect? Tell you something, Michael, and this is a word of warning for anyone. If a hand goes near my mouth, you're losing a finger. >> God, that would that would have been an even better video, wouldn't it? Um, not that we'd condone that either. Uh, obviously that was Robert Genrich speaking to Louis Good on LBC. LBC also managed to speak to one of those protesters um to get her side of the story. >> Can you tell us where you're from and why you did this? I am part of climate resistance and as a campaign we are here to resist reform um and to stop the um Nigel Farage from pedalling his lies and highlight that he is backed by billionaires to serve the superw wealthy. Why specifically are you against reform other than rather than other political parties? >> Uh I think the climate around uh our politics in the UK is quite concerning right now. Um reform is specifically peddling a lot of lies and a lot of hatred. It is a party that is just kind of founded on Yeah, I think just kind of pedling a lot of hatred and sort of stirring a lot of pots. Um, and it was all done so that Nigel Farage can get all of these wealthy donations from like billionaires and get him and his greedy mates wealthier and wealthier on wealthier. And I think that's a very dangerous thing. I was yanked by my hair. Um, I had people pull me in various different directions. I've already shown you the bruise that I've got on my arm. Um, and this was within the first five minutes. Um, I then got um pulled my hair pulled multiple times by the security guards. Um, and then when I complained and said, "Please don't pull my hair again." I was put on the floor and when they went to pick me up again, there was a security guard stood on my hair, which was obviously incredibly painful. And when I complained once more, they held my weight from my hair. I'm going to speak um with Ash in a moment about sort of the significance of this protest, what it says about our political culture. And first of I caught up earlier with someone from climate resistance. Um that's the group behind um these protests at reforms conference. I think the the rise of reform in the past year, year and a half uh has been a threat to the broader left and to this country and a big part of that is climate. But uh the members of climate resistance we we're worried about more than just uh our net zero targets and uh the threat that that form faces for migrant rights for climate for queer rights for uh our public services um we think are a really big big problem and we've kind of seen how far and and this party has kind of pulled the country right um with uh his uh unfortunate charisma and what they are doing on climate is rolling back net zero uh commitments in every council they're in they're in control of um and are politicizing the issue when many parts of climate policy are just common sense and you weren't one of the protesters this year but you protested reforms conference last year um I think by was it by heckling Nigel Faraj's speech again or just I suppose Just tell me what you did and tell me what what happened afterwards. >> Last year we were running a different campaign called abolish billionaires. Um but with Nigel Farage and Reform Party uh being one that want to take away services from people and take these massive donations from crypto billionaires like Christopher Harborn. Um we figured that protesting uh the conference last year would be would be a good idea. um a place to to get um our message out there and contextualize reform better. Um and yeah, so I did basically the same as what everyone has seen um from uh Friday. I uh got up on a chair. I said, "Michael, you don't work." Michael Nigel, uh uh you're not a man of the people. You work for the billionaires. Um, and as as soon as I got that line out, a man sitting two seats next to me dragged me down, uh, I fell onto someone in the row in front of me, um, kind of got this like black eye and, uh, was dragged out by the rest of the row until the security got me and threw me out the back. Um, so yeah, got some personal experience, but the scenes that we saw on Friday and everyone has been uh talking about online have been uh quite scary cuz there's from this brief experience, we expected a uh a difficult response. Um but the opportunism um to kind of b take a shot at a lefty at a lefty woman seemed uh was quite scary. Um and but I think what was more terrifying about the whole thing was the way that the leaders of the party have been reacting. You saw um Farage uh uh kind of basically implying that the woman kind of brought it on herself at the time, saying like if if she does if she does more of that, she's she's going to hurt herself. She he was four that was like four rows of seats between him and and the first incident. Um so he had a good view. He he would have seen the assaults. Um, and then we had Leansson's comments and we've had Robert Gener dismissing and we haven't had anything like a sincere dis like sincere apology or a condemnation of the sort of behavior. I think that speaks to the sort of culture that reform have built in the party >> and I think you know most right- thinking people will look at that video of you know the people grabbing that young woman's mouth and then hitting her with a walking stick and find it disgraceful and find sort of reforms sort of I suppose celebration of it in a way or sort of brushing it off as as pretty grotesque. Um I suppose what what is the theory of change of sort of >> standing up and and heckling because presumably there will be a lot of people in the crowd who just find it very annoying and is there a worry that it sort of polarizes people against the climate movement and sort of climate change as an issue especially as you're very much sort of identifying as young lefties and that might be seen to sort of feed into the culture war to some degree. I don't know what do you think of that? >> That's something we've spoke about a lot. I think when we started this campaign beginning of the year, we spent a lot of time strategizing. We thought about our our messaging very clearly and um there were a few parts to that. One is going after reform on the issues that their own voters don't like and that people who are curious about voting reform do not like them on. And um a big problem that people have with reformer are the corporate corporate interests. the the sort of I mean as we've seen with these donation scandals um when reform aren't talking about migration um when they're not talking about uh maybe benefit slashing there's there's uh they get a lot of push back and you see push back from people on the right as well um and I think it with the research we were doing we were thinking about the particular kind of target audience we wanted our messages to reach. And I think within reform members, you have two groups. You have like the blue reform. They've been tries most of their life and they were disappointed by the tries, so now they're going for reform. But you also have this red reform where you have people who are in the red wall um uh lifelong labor voters have been let down by austerity for years and and now have a Labor government that have come in couple of years and probably not really changed their lives very much. Um I think lots of people on the left feel that way. Uh and are looking for a party with some bolder ambition. Um and so our goal was really to speak to these people and go okay like uh the uh reform are working in the interest of the ultra wealthy and like Nigel Farage voted against uh voted for keeping zero hour contracts. um they like they don't give a lot of policies which the working class would benefit from in a material way. Um and and so being able to speak to to those in the reform who are economically left in their um in their opinions and highlighting that is is our goal. And that's why we've kept our our campaign very much about connections to billionaires and uh the sort of corruption inside the the party. >> That was someone from climate resistance talking to me earlier today. Um Ash, I know it's sort of it's very contentious to talk about sort of like generational conflict in politics because people think it's divisive like it's not it's not just about class, it's also about like age. But given voting patterns in the UK and especially the issue of climate. So I think this comes up in issues of housing. It comes up in issues of sort of um benefits for sort of pensions very well defended and other benefits sort of cut and then in in climate where you've got older people voting for parties who want to get rid of net zero and and younger people voting for parties who want tougher climate action. Obviously climate change is going to affect younger people to a greater extent. that image of like two fairly elderly people sort of just pulling that girl down to the ground by her hair and hitting them with a walking stick. >> There was something sort of arresting about it, wasn't there? >> So, the thing is is that I don't think that's necessarily a good generational picture, right? Because I don't think most people in their 60s and 70s are fantasizing about ripping a young woman's hair out. >> Yeah. Um but I think all of us can think of people who we know or have encountered who are older and have a very sort of libidinal vitriolic loathing of young people, right? like there there is something which is very close to the surface and is very um explosive when it finds an outlet. And you know I'm not saying that it has to necessarily be political, right? Like we've all encountered that with like riding your bikes past the wrong neighbor's house or something. So I wouldn't say that this is a picture of most older voters. I wouldn't even say this is a picture of most older reform voters, but I do think that it is part of a story of resentment and grievance and the fantasy of doing harm to those who you suspect hold you in contempt which is actually a part of the kind of um unconscious emotional storytelling of reform because look at the way in which Farage played into it. she probably studies socio studies sociology. She's a screamer, right? The sort of latent misogyny of she's a screamer who probably studies sociology and that um hair ripping. It really is a desire to do harm to someone, not in spite of the fact that they're a young female, you know, who looks like they might be middle class, but precisely because they're a young female who looks like they could be middle class. It's this outpouring of revenge for what you imagine is going on in her heads and in the heads of people like her. It's you hold us and what we stand for in disdain and now we're going to [ __ ] get you. >> Yeah, it's such an unpleasant image and then to just come out and all of them defend it. It was super super gross. Uh >> I mean this look so this is what one thing about Robert Generick, a man who believes in nothing but his own advancement. A man for whom a Zmpic has done wonders for his figure if he has taken it but is in danger of um his metabolism now eating away at his own brain cells. Right? Because this is someone who has no coherent moral vision whatsoever. I can imagine take say Jacob Reesemog all right a man with whom I do not share politics but he's a man who will take certain positions because he goes well this is the consistent thing to do he did around Shamima beum he was like brought to this country and dealt with by an English court you can imagine a Jacob Reesem mob sort of saying what's a democracy you know yeah you know of course they yell at me and of course I shall find it annoying Robert Genrich and and reform it's not about um appearing to have confidence in the establishment that you represent. It's about being constantly agrieved, constantly resentful, constantly vengeful. And that's why, you know, he he didn't just stop at the Lewis Goodall interview and he said, you know, what do you want them to do? You know, she's a leftwing activist. When he was asked about on Sky News, he went, well, boohoo. And the thing about Robert Generick is that I don't even think he's got the stones to be a real bully. I don't think he was ever that guy. I think he was always the little twerp egging on the bully. And the minute the minute that bully gets in trouble, parents are called in, teachers called in, they pretend that they had nothing to do with it. So, I've got more contempt for the likes of Genri than I do for the likes of say a Trump or a Farage. >> Yeah. I mean, he's he's just the most slimy, dislikable character in Britain. I think right now >> they're saying something. >> And I think that unites quite a lot of people. Every people across the political spectrum hate Robert Gry. You may have seen a while ago a story about Westminster Council wanting to curb what they called vertical drinking in Soho. Now, the Tory Council earlier this summer released a document calling on pubs and bars to commit to table service instead of allowing people to order at the bar and stand to drink. Now, the planning document was meant to deal with noise complaints from residents in what it calls a cumulative impact zone. Um, remember this is Soho, which should be the premier destination for nightife in London, although even now most bars close at 11 p.m. Um, anyway, the good news is that the policy aggravated so many people, caused such a ferrari, and that the council have relented. So the deputy leader of the council has told the times that standing with a pint is in fact a sacrif right of the British people. Um however the council will still discourage new licenses for bars and pubs outside what they call core hours which means um anytime after 11 p.m. If you if you want a late license, you're probably not going to get it. Um there is some debate. So I said earlier this is sort of is it people complaining about noise? It's also actually um driven in part by the police who think late night bars are associated with crime. So they don't want any more to open because then they think they have to do more policing when people can't get home. So they say we want more bars open late only if sort of the night tube is open and then people can get home. So complicated debate. Um but anyway uh Ash has this is this justice being done? The council have relented. Is is this finally a good news story for the day? Yeah, I mean, look, I'll the thing that would send me to the barricades quick as you like is if someone interrupts my right to stand uh to drink standing up. I mean, one thing that I was thinking about this weekend is um Michael, I went clubbing at the weekend for the first time in centuries. Um and it made me reflect on all of the venues that I used to go to, which have since been closed down. So, Hackne in particular used to be a place where you could go out relatively cheaply. You could have a good time and there were an awful lot of venues. Now, there is a sort of life cycle of night life. You don't expect a club to be open forever. But one of the things that happened particularly in Hackne is that places closed down and licenses weren't being renewed and new ones weren't being given out. So seemingly, you know, practically overnight, but I would say it was perhaps within a period of sort of, you know, 8 years, 9 years, a lot of the venues that you could just rely on just to go out, have a boogie, have a nice time just went away. And what's been replaced with is this sort of um plastic faximile of um an edgy bar or restaurant that you'd find in East London. And I think that this is a way in which um local councils, property owners and sort of private capital and private equity have all united to sort of strip cities of having a living cultural identity. So you go through bits of hackne and you're like this could be anywhere, right? This could be Clappam, this could be, you know, any other part of the city. you just see, you know, [ __ ] wings stops everywhere. Um, and going back to the far right and thinking about what it is that erodess a sense of identity is that in other parts of the country, it might not be to do with night life, right? It might be to do with sort of small like mom and dad retail, but this horrible combination of noise complaints, um, spineless local councils, and then private equity being primed to move in. That's a sort of perfect storm of how to strip a place of all the things that make it special. >> Um, let's wrap up there. We'll go stand and have a pint. Someone said to a standing pint is a recipe for horizontal sleeping. Something that I, you know, you're talking about you been clubbing for the first time. Something that I found as I've aged is I can't sleep now after after any alcohol. >> Do you know why that is? >> Why? So I was reading um first by John Robbins who's um a comedian who's in recovery for alcohol addiction and one of the things that it made me realize is that the sort of biochemistry of alcohol is really distinct. So it obviously is a depressant slows everything right down. So then your body overproduces uh adrenaline to try and keep you alive. So then once the alcohol has been processed by your system the adrenaline stays. So, I don't know about you, but in the night if I've had a drink, I'll wake up and I'll be like, >> "Yeah, >> heart pounding. What's wrong with someone breaking in?" It's just the booze adrenaline. You're paying the piper. >> That's why you got a drink at 6:00 p.m. and then you can sleep. You can have your nice moment. Um, just in time to tune in to Navara Live, I suppose. Anyway, let's wrap up. Thank you, Ash, for joining me tonight. Thank you everyone for tuning in and we'll be back tomorrow from 6 p.m. You've been watching Navar Media. Good night. Stop.