Ex-Gang Member: What Makes A Violent Man Change? - Johnny Chang

Tell me about your history. How did you get to where you are today? >> Yeah, so uh I grew up in the San Gabriel Valley, east side of LA. Uh some project housing. Um and I grew up kind of not the stereotypical Asian. Like I didn't like anime and I didn't like mathematics. I liked guns and gang banging basically. And it's prior to that is because my parents were immigrant parents. Um they did not uh fend very well. Obviously landed in poverty. They came with American dream in mind realizing that it's not as simple as other people were portraying it like our family back back home. Uh so yeah, we landed in the projects. They didn't understand gang violence, gang culture. They they just thought, "Oh, this place is cheap. The government helps us. Why not land there?" And um he's a chef by trade, but he tries to um you know, do everything that a man can do, right? Provide for his family. He starts to develop this addiction um which is to alcohol. He's drinking soju all the time. Um and then he starts like beating my mom, beating me, beat my brother. Basically, he he had a lot of uh I remember like kind of like a victimized mindset where he's like, "I came to this place, I tried my best, and now like everybody's out to get me." Like he broke all of his friendships with his friends. I remember um he would just blame everybody. Blame everybody. >> Was the alcoholism a response to him feeling like things were slipping through his fingers? >> Yeah. Yeah, it was. And then he would talk about certain things in the past that I didn't I was too young, but I remember he would say certain things like I never meant to do that. He would keep saying these types of things and I'm like, "Okay, whatever. You know, you're a kid. You don't understand." Um and then he ends up, you know, just kind of full-fledged like, you know, broke my mom's ribs. you know, he's he's like beat my brother really bad before. He's beat me really really bad. And so I kind of get to this position where I'm like, "All right, I'm like 8 years old. I can't really like, you know, depend on my dad cuz I know he's going to go kind of crazy." So I try to just hang out in the streets. And I think at 8 years old was when I started to fight more. I got suspended when I was 10 years old. And I just started to kind of hang around that. And in a lot of people don't know, but in LA around like the '9s was gang culture. It was just crazy. That was when Snoop Dogg and, you know, uh, Tupac and this gangster rap was hitting the scene. And so it it literally came like a wave as well as crack cocaine, meth going through rampant through the neighborhood. And so, you know, we started to kind of see a shift in the in the in the area where people were just being more crazier, right? Um, so you know, the one event that made me kind of solidify that I couldn't trust my dad and and my mom e either is at 10 years old, I remember walking from Hiho market, which is market near near my my area in the hood. Um, and these kids pull up on me in a car and they beat me. There four kids beat the dog crap out of me. And you know, I get jumped for the first time. Um, and they take my backpack, they take my shoes, so I end up, you know, walking home. barefoot, bloody nose, whatever, ripped shirt. And you know, my dad uh he asks me, he goes, "Where is your clothes? Where's your stuff? Like, what what happened? Are you fighting again?" And I was like, "Yes, but I got jumped." And for him, it could he couldn't understand why kids would do this to kids. Like, I'm 10 years old. Why would anyone just come and beat us up? What my dad didn't know at the time was that there was a war between the Asians and the Mexicans. So it was just solely they were just praying on us you know uh uh unfortunately >> even though you weren't a part of it because of your race you were a part of it. >> Yes. Exactly. So and a lot of kids during that time uh through the green light era is what we call it is they were getting beat up. And so um and that's because two gangs were you know going at each other. But um you know my dad's like I remember him saying vividly when are you gonna stop lying? And then he's like today the day you're gonna stop lying and I'm gonna beat it out of you. So, I got jumped and then when I, you know, went home, my dad basically beat me. Uh, and then during that time, I just remember it was a different thing. Like, I was used to the beatings. But I think at that time, I understood like I can't say anything to my dad anymore. He's just not there. >> My mom obviously would kind of help him beat on me cuz how he saw it was like, if you're not helping me hit the kid, then like you're not supporting me, right? And so, she would actually do the same unfortunately, me and my brother. And so, um, you know, I I was like, "Okay, I can't trust them." I started staying out more. I just had this internalized rage. Like, I would fight and it was no longer like fun to fight anymore. It was more like survival. I was trying to like kill the person. And it just it just took it at 10 years old. Yeah. And then, >> uh, two years into it, I'm fighting, I'm getting suspended, my dad's beating me up, and almost took it as like, all right, you're going to beat me up. Like, whatever. It's just part of it. I get out. um go to the go to the you know uh uh stores I go to like wherever I go I'm literally just being mischievous. I'm stealing um carrying a knife to school. All this stuff at 12 years old you start to kind of see the shift in my life where the gangs are noticing cuz when they what they do is they kind of prey on on the kids. They look at them and they go, "Okay, this guy's getting in trouble. You know, he's fighting more." And they they were basically trying to like recruit me. Well, they're not going to try and recruit the kid that stays at home, goes, "It's about at 8:00, reads his books." >> Yeah. Yeah. So, um, at that time, I remember the first encounter was they banged on me, which means like you they basically test you, right? They know you're not from anywhere, but they want to see. So, I remember they pulled out guns on me and they were just like, "Where are you from?" Which means, you know, what gang? And I froze, obviously. And I was like, "Uh, I didn't say anything." And then they're like, "You ain't from anywhere." And I'm like, "No, do you gang bang?" I'm like, "No, I don't gang bang." And then they're like, "You want to kick it?" Which means let's let's hang out, you know? And of course, I was just like, "What are these guys?" >> They were I think it was for the homies. So I remember I think he was it was 16, 15, 15, and 14. So they was just kids as well, right? And so um yeah, they were like, "Let's hang out." I remember getting into the black into the white Honda Civic in the back and they started introducing. They called me this guy and this guy and this guy and told me their names and um I was like, "Cool." They're like, "Let's go hang out." I remember they took me out to eat and then the older dude, he was 16, brought me to his uncle and his uncle was one of the shot callers, meaning like the OGs and he's like, "What's he was like the nicest guy I remember." I was like, "This guy's tatted up. He's done prison time. He's big built a man's man." And but he's like, "What's up, man?" Like super soft, super respectful. And he's like, "You know what? Like, are you hungry?" And they're like, "No, we took him to eat." He's like, "Okay, cool." and he he pulls out a watt of cash and he pulls out $100 and he gives it to me. And then he goes, "Bro, like, I hope you understand that like when you're with us, you're family." And I remember him saying that to me and I was like, "Whoa, this guy's awesome. He's respectful. He's got a pistol on his hip." Like it everyone respects this dude. And I think at that moment I kind of fell in love with it, right? I was like, >> "He's being gentle to you." >> Very gentle. Very respectful. Very gentle. Um, and I just, of course, I'm, you know, 12 years old and I'm like thinking, "This this guy's cool, you know." And I remember in the car ride back when they're dropping me off, I'm like, "Man, the big homie, he's so cool. He's so cool." I just kept saying this, you know? They're like, "Yeah, he's amazing." But obviously, it was just kind of like coercing me into it. And in retrospect, do you see that as predatory and coercive or caring when there's a kid who doesn't have a father that's looking after him? Well, I mean, he rest his soul, but he he was known for doing that. And so, he brought a lot of the homies into the hood and um he would use them because at the end it that same dude asked me to do a mission, which is do something for me. And he he said it. He was like, "Hey, bro, like you know, these people are my enemies." And you know, if you're my homie, they're your enemies. And I he started to lace me down as to what gang culture was. And again, I'm like, I don't know who these guys are, but they're just the opposition. So, because I love you and you're my homie, like I'll do it for you, you know? And so, through that, um, that's where I caught my first case. It was this guy. He was like, "This guy thinks he's all that, you know, he's a well-known drug dealer in our neighborhood." And, um, he's like, "He's stepping on our toes and he's trying to do this, so we got to go and take him, kidnap him basically, um, and then steal all of his stuff, you know, and if we have to beat him up or kill him, it is what it is." So, I remember that was the first mission that I did. Um, unfortunately, that was the first time I got caught, too. And so we all got caught. It was six of us. Um at that time was the first time I learned about RICO. So RICO act is when you know the government, they used it to take down like the Sicilian mob and the Italian mafia, right? In in America. It's basically like Homeland Security, FBI, CIA. They work together to take down these gangs. Um we were getting recoed and I didn't know that. I'm 12 years old. And so when I get caught, all my friends are telling me, "Yo, you're going to do like a few months. You're a kid. like it's not going to be that big of a deal. You didn't smoke nobody. You didn't kill nobody. You didn't do anything, right? But then they hit me with kidnapping and robbery. And I'm like, whoa. And then it carried a pretty hefty sentence. And that's the first time I heard YA, which is California Youth Authority. And then my friends were like, oh shoot, you're going to YA. [snorts] It's And then they were all shocked because it was my first defense. I shouldn't have been going to YA. YA is like where, you know, kids kill their parents and like burn the house down. It's like the worst of the worst. Serial killers, kid, child serial killers would be in there. Um, just crazy stuff. And so they had me go in there solely because of the RICO act. So they were like, "This guy, I remember hearing like he's a child assassin, you know, they're training him to be this and this and this gang." And they they would line up uh cases of my friends who are already indicted and doing prison time and they were all in there for murder. So they're like, "These are his friends. >> This is the path that this kid is on. We need to get out ahead of it." >> Yes. Exactly. >> Guilt by association. >> Yeah. And then so they basically were like, "Yeah, it makes sense." You know, they're like, "Look at him. He's like younglooking, but he doesn't listen. He, you know, he has a good childhood." They're just like throwing this out there. >> Killer and whiting. >> Yeah. And I'm like, "What the heck is going on?" And then I hear four years. They're like, "Okay, you're going to get four years for this. Um, you're going to plea out basically." And I took basically disassing a witness for the benefit of a gang. It was a lesser charge. Um, and then they said, "You're going to have to do 50% of that halfime." And you know, and the judge was just like, I hope you can learn your lesson, you know, cuz where you're going, he's like, it's it's it's going to it's very rough. So, I ended up going to SRCC, which is Southern Reception, which is California Youth Authority. From there, you fight right off. We get off the bus. Um, people are just like, you know, testing me. That's what they ask. Where are you from? And I'm just like, oh, from watching. And they're like, what? And then they just crack me. Boom. And I'm like, what's going I don't even know where this guy's from. We're fighting. And then they it comes back like two minutes later. The guy's like, "Hey, you fought my friend. Like I'm his homie. You got to fight me." So it's called lining it up. So I remember the first night that I was first time >> first night. Yeah. Yeah. First day. And I'm like, "Oh." So they It's called a Ramla, which means a car in Spanish. And basically what it is is if you fight this one guy, you have to fight all of his friends, too. And I didn't know that. And so I'm in there and I think I fought like six to eight people the first night. And I'm just like, >> how old are they? >> They were between also like 12, 13. I think the oldest one I fought was 16. He beat me up bad, obviously. 12 and 16 year old. No match, you know. Um, and then yeah, you do that. And then the second day I fought four people. And then after that, it was like, okay, he has respect. He's going to fight. >> But then I saw people who wouldn't fight. And unfortunately, they would get taken advantage of. whether it's people would steal from them um or I would witness people like raping them as well, right? So, um you know, you grow up in that environment and I'm thinking, okay, I just got to get through this for like 2 years, right? And I remember saying that to one of the older homies who was in there. He was like he had the keys, meaning like he controlled like the the little click that we had in there, like the Asians, and he goes, "Bro, I remember this vividly. He goes, "Forget about your life. like once you get here like you're it's over for you. You're either going to catch a murder or you're going to like catch more time because ya it does something to you. That's I remember him saying that and it's true because I would see the cos correctional officers doing like wicked things. They would pit us against each other and call it gladiator school where we're fighting each other um and they would bet on us, you know. It's just it it was bad. >> How did it change it? I remember it just made me more like if I just had the thought that someone was disrespecting me. They didn't even have to. If I just felt it or anyone felt it, you take off. So it was very violent. It and and again within those four years I think I fought like 40 plus people right and it's just like did you say something? What? And then you crack them. It's just it there is no talking in there. It's all gang banging. And then new people would come in which we which we call fish. They'll come in and we'll do the same thing. Hey, where you from? Oh, you're an enemy. We won't say anything. Crack them. Boom. We start fighting. And so it made me deal with like violence as like a universal language, right? It's like you don't have to talk. You don't need just beat them up and then everyone's going to praise you. And then it felt like I felt like I felt like I fit in, right? I'm like, "Oh, wow. I could beat this guy up." And people are like, "Wow, that's Johnny. He did this. He did that." And so I felt a sense of as weird as it is, pride to be able to do something like that. And so I get out of prison, um, you know, California Youth Authority, and I remember trying to just, you know, they parole me back to my mom's, uh, place. Uh, my dad at this time hasn't really visited me or anything. He's just, you know, like still being drunk and doing his own thing. My mom, um, starts to take Buddhism way more serious. Like, she was serious about Buddhism, but she was like, when I came, she was like zened out, right? like, "Oh, there's karma and put your shoes here and there's there's a funue and you know," and I'm like, "Okay." And I last 67 days, uh, 2 months in a week, and I end up doing a a freeway shooting, and this time I'm 16, going on 17, and they basically bring up all my past again. They try me. >> Is it the same gang? The same group? >> Same same neighborhood. Yeah. So, when you're in a gang, you're most of the time you're in it for life, right? So, it's just how it is. Um, and so same gang. I end up doing a shooting, but this time it wasn't them telling me. This was transparently just me looking having the YA mentality, which is this car was driving on the 60 freeway. And I remember they were just stacking, which is like throwing up gang signs. It's Mexicans. And at that time, we were again at war with these people. So, I remember seeing them and then they were like looking at me. It was two guys in the car and I had the gun on me and um I was just like kind of stacking back at them and then I was like, "Man, f this." And I just started shooting at them. Um and then I went on the run. Obviously like it was my dad's car that I took for a joy ride. So the warrant came back to the address and you know they basically >> Do you think those those guys in the car rang you in? >> Uh I don't How did the police find out that it was you? >> I mean I I mean it was on the freeway so I'm pretty sure >> someone else saw it. Yeah. It's like it's like in front of >> So you were moving. >> Yeah. I was shooting at a moving vehicle. So they charged me with uh attempted murder, obviously shooting at an inhabited vehicle, shooting in in a public space. >> Yeah. There's all the cause behind people. >> All this stuff. And I'm just like, "Holy moly." And then I was looking at 19 to life for one charge and then 25 for the other. It was just stacked up against me. Yeah. And I'm like, "Oh, okay." So now I'm I'm fearful because obviously like I I've done YA but I've heard stuff about prison. Prison is like the big boys. And I thought I would just go back to YA. Maybe I can handle the stretch. >> You're 16 still. >> 16. Yeah. Going on 17. And um they're like, "No, we're going to try you as an adult again." The first time I ever heard that, I'm like, "I'm not an adult though." But they're like, "We're going to try you." And during that time in that era, >> I mean, it's got to be, I guess. >> Well, yeah. it it started to become right because it was just like yeah these guys are wild so they know what they're doing it doesn't matter if their frontal lobe is developed or whatever it's just what it is right and so um yeah I get tried and I get sentenced and I get points and they're like you go to level four which is maximum security I'm a kid kid right and um takes like a few months obviously and I and when I hit prison I'm 17 um I plea out for basically uh two counts of assault a deadly weapon. They give me 10 years. Uh I have to do 85% of that. So I just did four, got out. Now I'm doing 10 basically minimum 8 years depending on my behavior. I might do the fool. I might catch another case and get washed and do life. I mean it just we don't know. Yeah. And then I get up in there and um I get laced down. It's completely different. The first day I get in there, I'm like, "Oh, that guy, he's from this gang, which is a rival gang of ours. All right, I'm gonna take off on him." And the guy who was leading me through the prison was like, "That's a no no." And I'm like, "What? I'm a YA baby." And he goes, "You guys need to calm your ass down." That's literally what he said. He goes, "In prison, it's race. California specifically, it's race against other races. All that gang stuff gets dropped. Like, yes, you're in your hood and you represent, but you don't fight each other." I'm like, "But he shot my cousin." Like, it doesn't matter. It's like that that's all this is the politics. And that's the first time I learned what politicking is in prison. It's like, no, even they're your enemy. You have to back them up. And again, it shook my world upside down, right? I'm like, it was I was cool with my gang being against everybody. That's cool. I like that. But now I got to be cool with these guys. And I got to So, for the first two years, I didn't program well. Went to the shoe a lot. The whole >> program well mean? >> Proning means it means like like going with the program. Uh meaning like you have to stick with the rules and regulations. I wasn't really good at that. I was still fighting my cellmates and which is you can't do the stuff like that. I would get uh disciplined. They call it DP discipline where if you do something to your cellmate or you act out of character, these guys will beat you up. And so I was getting beat up a lot cuz I was just a knucklehead. And so >> and this is the uh the training the the uh rhythm of life that you learned in YA now being ported across into prison. >> Yeah. And they knew they were like, "You're a YA baby, aren't you?" And I'm like, "Yeah." And they're like, "You have to calm down. You will die in here." And I think uh you know it >> seems like it's less violent but more lethal. Yes. In prison. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. That's a good way to put it. It was definitely less violent but more lethal. And when it was violent it was race against race. So there is no friendlies as we call it. Meaning one-on- ones. It's like hey if you disrespect me the whole race goes to war. So I would see riots right? One guy did something. Hey you stepped into my out of bounds. went to my area and then they'll disrespect and then everybody goes to war, blacks, Mexicans, whites, whatever all together. So yeah, it was it was crazier. But because of that, there was also this mutual level of respect where it's like, okay, you're dangerous and we're dangerous. Like, let's play with us. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Tell me if this sounds familiar. You train regularly, you eat reasonably well, you feel fine, but you're just kind of going off vibes. Most people have absolutely no idea what's going on inside their body. And that is why I partnered with Function. 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Like general population is where you go there and you don't have a jacket. Now a jacket is any charge that's very bad like rape for example uh molestation charges snitching um dropouts meaning turning away those are like the bottom of the bottom GP is top of the bottom meaning like gang members um you know extortionists lone short whatever they can be at the top only because they're solid and tentoes as we say but if yeah if you're doing things like crimes against women you're seen as like the bottom of the barrel Oh, and you can't even be in general population >> uh because they'll roll you off the yard, which means if they find out and they check your paperwork, >> which the first couple months you have to walk around with, uh it's like a manila folder. It's a C file, criminal file. You carry it on the yard. This is again only California usually. Um they have a different system. So >> like carrying homework around. >> Yeah. And then they people who have the keys or representatives like Mac reps, block reps, they'll open it and be like, "Okay, he's good to stay." If you're no good, which means you have that jacket, you get rolled off. But nine times out of 10, the correction officers know they're not going to let some random dude come into general population because it's like sharks. You have like a guppy in a shark tank, right? So they'll put you in SNY, special needs, and sensitive and or PC, protective custody. Um, but yeah, I was in general population. They call it mainline. So on the mainline, there's different politics and then PC, I don't know. I've never been, but they have their own politics, too. Um, but basically, yeah, if you're a snitch, if you're no good, if you've, uh, defected from the gang, if you, you know, did crimes against women or children, you are definitely not going to be with >> the the the the Do you know the word nons? Do you know what that is? >> Nons. >> So, it's a like a British slang word for pedophile, but it's a it's an acronym, and it stands for not on normal courtyard exercise. >> Okay. >> So, that's not too dissimilar to this. not a normal courtyard exercise. >> Uh so they're kept off to one side. >> What um what behavior or behaviors make someone look weak inside >> in prison? So two things um if you back down from anything. So when they ask you to raise your hand, meaning to volunteer for a stabbing uh because somebody was in there in general population but turned snitch or ran up a drug debt and then they do something crazy and they don't pay it back. you have to kind of take care of these people. It's called cleaning house, right? Um if they don't do it, then you're looked down upon. The second thing is um if you don't program correctly, which is that's part of it, but in the point where if you're sitting there and you know um you're not working out, you're lazy, you're not running the program with people, you're not militant, um you're not a man, you're not backing yourself up, you're not keeping your word looked down upon, and again, people get rolled off the yard for that. Um the last thing is also religion. If you go in there and you turn Christian, big no no. A lot of people treat you as I mean they they won't treat you like a snitch, but you're like just a little bit of you're like mid tier. >> Why? >> Because it's seen as weak. Um you know in prison you don't have mental health illness like awareness. They see mental health illnesses as weakness. So in prison it's all about bravado, right? Hey, I'm I'm I don't cry at night. I'm a gangster. And so, um, they basically, you know, if you're like, "Hey, I'm Christian now." Now, you can't program because if you're a true Christian, you can't enact violence on people, right? So, you can't sin, as they say. And so, yeah, I would see that. I would see people get rolled off because they're like, I don't want to be part of the program. I would see other people and I would look down on them, you know, transparently when they would be I would see cuz, you know, in there for a long time, you see people's kind of lives lives change. They'll go from the most craziest people and then become Christian and be turned down as we say. Just they're just not like that anymore. And they'll do things where they'll they'll cop an unlock. They'll get an unlock to go to church to avoid riot days and like it's like oh I'm in church though, you know? So we would really look down on them and be like you guys are just women. Like >> how quickly does morality change when weakness gets punished? >> It's it's very fast. It's swift, right? Um, people go from, I mean, I'll share this story, it's pretty wild, but I remember a dude, he was very respected. Um, [snorts] he ended up having some allegations brought to him of like stealing. And again, in prison, stealing is also like a no no. You're stealing from the poor. Like, everyone's struggling. Why would you steal? So, they were saying he was stealing. And no one really believed it at first. But then another guy who was also very solid was like, "He is he stole my stuff." And sure enough, the proof was there. Um, so he didn't the guy didn't know that the proof was like they gave the evidence, right? And so I remember um kind of walking past the dude and then my friend was like, "Hey, watch what's going to happen." And I'm like, "Okay." And so the everyone's shaking his hand and this other kid, you know, he's young. He just goes up to the guy and then he goes up to him with another older cat um who's like kind of like a like a dude who just puts in work. He's like a grunt, right? And he's like, "Hey, bro. Like big homie. Like you're you're you're He was a really buff guy. You know, the physique back then is like everyone's really ripped cuz they're working out." He's like, "I bet you you can't do a 100 burpees right now." And the guy's like, "What are you tell me? I'll do it right. You're challenging me. All right." And he starts doing them. Boom. Boom. He's hitting the burpees and he's getting gassed because it's a lot. >> And he's like, "Yeah, yeah. I bet you you can't do more." And he's like trying it, right? >> And then he gets up and he takes a breath. And then the guy stabs him. Boom. And hits him in the chest. And that's that's the first time I've seen someone leak out. So what he was doing was he was getting his heart rate up to like make sure he would bleed him out quicker. Yeah. So you'll see things like this where it's like you and him were just friends. You're literally It looks like it's a friendly game, >> but it's all manipulation. >> 100%. And so when you see stuff like that, it made me go, I'm not trusting anybody. You're not telling me to do this and do that. You're gonna do something to me. Right. And so morale, yeah, it goes like this where you're one minute they're fighting on the on the yard with you and they're stabbing people for you and then the next minute they're they're turning it on you. And so it it bred this uh mindset of you cannot trust anybody. >> Massive distrust. >> Doesn't matter. Yeah. Doesn't matter who it is, you cannot trust anybody. Yeah. >> That's a massive difference. I think maybe a misconception that civilians probably have about prison violence, just how manipulative and insidious it can be. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. It's very it's again like story there's hundreds of stories like that where people are just thinking of ways to prey on you and it really is in prison predator and prey unfortunately right you're either I'm from an era where you either catch a body or you be a body that's how prison is. It's like you either kill somebody or you don't you know and if you program you can hide behind the car a little bit. That's just normal. But there are times where your your your number gets called. It's just how it is. It just it's not you know every single prison. It's a little bit different, but I can only speak for like four yards in California. >> How many How many uh places were you in? >> I've been to three. So, you go to county jail first. Ya. But prisons alone, I've been to like four separate prisons. Yeah. So, I've been >> in that one stretch. >> Yes. Right. >> Yeah. So, level four and then what happens is your points drop. It's a point system. the more you're like uh good time and you good behavior, your points will naturally just drop and then you go to level three. So, um paroleing at a level three. Um but basically, yeah, when your points are really high, you're basically like if you do murder, >> extremely high and you're going to go with level four, which is maximum security. Um it's just the top of the top. And so, I'm talking about level four is intense like this. Level three is not as bad. Less riots. Um definitely some fighting. There is riots. is crazy too, but not where it's all weapons, right? Level four is only stabbings. There is no like, hey, let's fight. It's like, no, we're going to stab you. So, that story I told you happened on a level four. >> Mhm. >> Right. So, yeah. >> How long were you spending in each? What were you What was the proposal? >> Uh, so it was what, four years? No, 5 years level four and then like three three and a half years level three. Yeah. >> What was the most dangerous situation that you found yourself in? um probably in a riot. Um, I remember like cracking one off and I don't want to like disclose too much of the names and stuff, but basically it was over a drug debt and then they basically were like, "Hey Johnny, you know, you and this was out of some jealousy. I could just tell. Um because when people find out that you're you're short to the house, which means you're going home very, you know, you're short, like you're going to be home in like a month, 2 months, 3 months, whatever it is, they start to feel jealous of you because if they have all day, meaning they're they're doing life without parole or life. Some people get this idea of like, oh, you think you're better than us? Like, I'm going to make it so you throw your life away, >> right? And so, um it was purely based off of that. And it was it was my fault. You know, I told somebody who I trusted um early early on and I guess he remembered when I was going to get out and so he he had LWP life without and I remember he also even dropped down in in points as well and at the end of it you know he was basically like hey there's a drug debt we got to roll this guy off basically you got to put him put in work uh on him you have to do it and he was telling me and I was like okay and I wanted to say I was short to the house But I was like, I'm going to look like a >> You don't want to be a [ __ ] >> Yeah, exactly. I'm like, I'm going to look like a a girl, right? And so I'm like, all right, I got you. So what's going to happen? Well, you're going to crack it off. And I'm like, all right, cool. Meaning you started. So I remember this dude. He's huge Samoan dude, right? >> Big old Uso. He and and um the homie I was like like this is all manipulation, but I'm like I I'm too deep now. So he's like you, you you guys go together. All right, cool. six of us, one of him, he was prunoed out, which is um like like drunk, right? And he was known for again running up debt, beating up his cellmates, and but no one would say anything to him cuz he's huge, right? Um and uh I remember just going up to him like, "What's up? How you doing?" And I shook his hand, and I remember with all my might, I socked him in the face and he just went [snorts] and like looked at me. I was like, "Oh, snap." And then he cocked back and then everybody jumped in on him. And I remember this guy is like super strong because we were stomping him out and he had blood in his mouth and he was laughing. He's like, "Oh, guys, stop." He's like this. And we were just like, "Damn, this guy's took six of us." We still couldn't get him like, you know, uh, completely rolled off. But, you know, uh then the CO's came and the OC, you know, pepper spray and gas and all that. But, um I you know, stuff like that where it was very sticky cuz I again I cracked it off. I could have you know, caught a violent charge that would have been a strikeout for me, right? If they were if they were to, >> you know, uh uh either snitch or I get caught in the act, >> um they would have struck me out. I would have did a minimum of 25 to life there >> for that one incident. Yeah, that's just and it this is like because court even in prison where a lot of people catch life is in is in in prison because they think like well I'm already in prison you can't no you can trump charges in prison uh people have I've met many people in there for 5 years stretch and they get called their number gets called and they go and they do a stabbing and they end up killing the guy they get caught for it and now they have they went from 5 years to life right it's just how especially California is like this and >> what if you refuse? >> Um then you get rolled off. Uh then you get stabbed, then what's going to come to them is going to come to you. And so for me it was just very difficult to like it's like damned if you do, damned if you don't. You got to choose the less of the two evils, you know? And um yeah, it was more it was very sadistic in a lot of ways, but also it made me feel like this adrenaline of like, oh, I can prove myself. Yes, they're using me, but like I can I can also do this. >> Sounds intoxicating. The respect that you get sounds intoxicating. 100%. 100%. Yeah. It's it's almost like an addiction in itself. Yeah. Some people I know in there till this day are like they just raise their hand just to cuz it's it's like you you get infamous for it. >> Oh, that guy did that. Oh, he was in the whole wa this guy did that. Did you see him? And it just spreads like wildfire. >> Feels like >> Yeah. >> gangs manufacture belonging better than society does for some men. >> That's a bar 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think? Uh what were the hardest things to unlearn after prison? [sighs] >> The hardest thing to unlearn was that you have your own back and that you're like the master of your own destiny. In prison, you learn, yes, they lock you in, but there's this confidence of like I made it out. >> And so there's this heart of I can do whatever I want cuz I've been to like the lowest of the low. So there is a pride in it. And it's again an intoxicating pride and it just feels very high-hearted is the best way to explain it. So I had to unlearn that. I had to unlearn the criminal mindset where it was like how do I take advantage of this person. So the manipulative mindset was very difficult for me to learn because to unlearn because it's ingrained in you, right? Okay, well I'm hungry so how am I going to hustle? Okay, I'll take this and have this guy give me these stamps and then with these stamps I'll trade it for this person and I know that person needs money right now. So, it's like it's all an ecosystem. >> That's the vulnerability that I Yeah. >> Yes. And so, I think that was the hardest thing was people would come to me like my friends and I would pick up on patterns. Oh, he struggles at nighttime and he wants to do cocaine during these hours. Like not I'm not even paying attention. It would just come to me. >> Right. So I think um unlearning the manipulation definitely was difficult. The anger uh that goes from 0 to 100 and then back to zero was difficult. It's like every little sign of disrespect the anger just you just take it there. >> How quickly were you able to sleep after something like that happened? Would your head hit the pillow and you'd be able to sleep normally? Uh that's when I felt like I was broken was when I did the like a stabbing in prison and then I was like proud of it and then it was just like dang is there something wrong and there's like that little voice right of like there's something wrong but I would I would like drown that out because I'm like no no no no I'm good like they deser and I would I would uh try to I guess pacify myself but also defend that no they see they were they did this they shouldn't >> rationalizing yes and so that was also very difficult I than accountability, right? It's like >> how do you I I I I remember early on my homies would say that to me and these are other gang members who do the same thing. So it's you know it's bad when they're like bro you're manipulative. I'm like you're a manipulator calling me a manipulator. Right? So I just remember them saying like you're never wrong and they would that that would be the running joke. Bro is never wrong. Like don't even talk to him bro is never wrong. Like what what do you mean let's get up then? Let's fight. You know like see you see what I'm saying? Like and then just like man whatever. You're a [ __ ] and then they're just like whatever. And they just knew like that's how he is. He's just been in prison way too long and he just he just thinks he's right all the time and he pops off. A quick aside, you've probably heard me talk about Element before and that's because I've started every single morning the same way for the last 5 years now, which is a cold glass of water with Element in it. Element is an electrolyte drink mixed with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. It's a sciencebacked electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium. No sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients. It reduces muscle cramps and fatigue, supports brain function, and helps to regulate your appetite throughout the day. I genuinely notice the difference when I take it versus when I don't, which is why I don't shut up about it, and also why it's used by everyone from Dr. Andrew Human to Olympic athletes and FBI sniper teams, the the good sniper teams, not the bad ones. Also, they have a no questions asked refund policy. So, if you don't like it for any reason, they'll just give you your money back. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below by heading to drinklnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklnt.com/modernwisdom. Feels like brotherhood requires an enemy in this way, like you guys are uh bound together, bonded together over the mutual tribalism of it not being. >> Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yeah, it really is cuz it's like there are times, it's interesting that you say that because I remember there's times where we didn't have an enemy. Like everyone was our enemy and then people got locked up and then we kind of made a lot of gangs go defunct and then we start beefing with each other. >> We literally like it's called set tripping. We would hate on each other. >> Sets tripping. >> Set tripping. Set s. So set tripping means like you're from a set, you're from a set. So the way my gang works is an an umbrella, right? It's it's like think of Bank of America, but there's like the Austin branch and the California branch, right? So, it we're all Bank of America basically, but we trip on each other. And um yeah, that was also really crazy as well. But yeah, um it's interesting that you say that. >> Yeah, I think you [clears throat] see it. Was it um men destroy others in times of war and themselves in times of peace. And it's kind of the same thing with the brotherhood piece here that hey if we've got nobody else to fight I need to fight someone then there's no one on the outside so I'll start fighting somebody on the inside. >> That's good man. Yeah that's interesting. Yeah. >> What are >> what was integration like coming back out cuz you've done basically apart from 67 days. >> Yeah. >> 12 13 years. >> 12 and a half 13 years >> back to back. >> Yeah. It was hard. Um, I remember just unlearning a lot of things that I had to learn. I mean, uh, it did teach me structure. I think that was one of the benefits where I would come home and I was already just make your bed, you know, it was it was good. Um, I was kind of like very productive, as weird as that sounds. But I I I knew I was broken. Uh, this one incident, it was like couple months after I got out. Um, I finally decided like, all right, I'm going to get out the house a little bit. I'm going to explore cuz when you go to prison there's there's things that you don't want to be around. You don't want to be around too many people. You get this social anxiety because you get you know you're like it's almost like you get claustrophobic. >> It's that that same feeling of claustrophobic but in the open if that makes sense. Like it feels better to just be like alone. And so I would feel that number one. >> You didn't like to be around too many people when you came out? >> Yeah. Because I would be watching their every move. I would see people cross in front of you. Like when you're speaking and someone walks like that's very disrespectful, right? And you have to say, "Excuse me." In prison, like if I'm walking around someone, "Excuse me." It's very respectful cuz there's mutual violence. Well, in the world it's not like that. Somebody can run into you and you're just like, "Yo, what the hell?" And then they just keep walking, right? So I I was like, "All right, let me avoid that cuz I I'm I know myself I'll catch a case um and go crazy." >> So and finally I get out and I'm like, "All right, I got to go get some stuff, groceries, whatever." I go to Walmart and I remember I'm blown away cuz I'm like, "Yo, you could get like tires and then like I don't know, food and it's like all in one, right?" >> I'm blown away, too. Being British, there's no We don't have [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Gotcha. Gotcha. I'm making an analogy between being British and going to prison. [laughter] >> But I, you know, I get there and I remember seeing the correctional or the the security guard, I'm sorry. And I'm like, "Hey, can you take me to the restroom?" And he kind of looks at me and he goes, "Yeah, the code is it's you go all the way in the back to the right the code is." And I'm like, "Yeah, but can you take me?" And that's when I realized I'm free, but I wasn't free in here because in prison >> saw a guy in a uniform. >> Yeah. And and that's what they're supposed to do, especially on four yards, is they take you don't just go to the restroom. You could do contraband. They take you there. Um and you got to like go back, you know, and have them kind of monitor you. So it's like you'd been conditioned like Pavlovian conditioning of see man in uniform >> need bathroom ask man in uniform to take me to bathroom. >> Yeah. And that's when he saw me and he was just like yeah the code is this. And I'm like but you got to take me though. And then I was dead serious like dead pan. And he was just like oh we don't we don't do that here. >> I don't offer that service. >> Yeah. And I was like oh wait. So, I just get the code and he's like, "Yeah, you just go and you" And then I walked and I remember having like chills like, "What the heck? This is weird." >> It's like being a child. >> Yeah. >> It's like being It's like being a child and not knowing like I I have to put my hand in the air. I have to have >> Yeah. >> permission to do this thing. >> Yeah. And then my friends who did prison time too would come over and my my light would still be on past like 9:00 p.m. 10:00 p.m. And they're just like, "Bro, turn off your lights, bro." And again, in prison, they shut it off for you automatically. So there's little things like this where the light Yeah. I didn't realize. I was like, "Oh, oh, that's true." And so, you know, I think that's when I just really was like, "Dude, I >> I didn't feel institutionalized, but I guess I was." It's >> such an arrested development though from 12 until [ __ ] 25. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It is so formative. >> It's more formative. There's if you'd been from zero until 13, it would have probably been less formative than from 12 to 25. >> That makes sense, you know. Yeah. >> True. Yeah. >> Crazy. [clears throat] >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, back into the real world. What are you doing? >> So, uh I kind of want to back it up a little bit. Prior to that, I obviously, you know, the the only religion that was really respected in prison was was being Muslim. And so I remember seeing a guy um he was like my first mentor I would say. I you know my gang being as big as it is I had a lot of friends who were in prison. So when I hung out with them we would I would know them you know I would hear about them and stories about them and actually hung out with them but I never had an actual mentor mentor who was like someone I looked up to right I looked up to them cuz they were gangster but I knew that they couldn't really help me. I remember meeting this guy. He was um you know Muslim guy, Middle Eastern guy. He ran with the others which is our car, our group and um he was very well respected which I thought was weird. Okay, so he's religious, he prays, Ramadan comes around, he has a special diet, bros, carries himself very respectfully, works out, you know, all of that. And I remember um you know him just being very respectful to me. He he knew about my history. You know, China has 5,000 years of history. You're Chinese, right? You're northern Chinese. You're taller. You know, I'm just like, "What the heck? This guy's giving me a history lesson." I'm like, "Oh, exactly." And he just knew. He was just a smooth networking guy, right? And so he's like, "Yeah, bro. Like, you got a bra." I remember him saying, "You got a brain." And I'm like, "Okay." And he's like, "You got to use that, bro." You know what I'm saying? And I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "With all due respect, you know, I'm just letting you know." And he's like, "You should sell with me." And I was like, "Okay, cuz you can make requests to like live with certain people." And I was I was having an issue with one of my Vietnamese homies, my cellmates at that time. So I was like, "Yeah, >> how many people basel?" >> Uh, two. Yeah. So I end up, you know, moving in with him. And yeah, lo and behold, he starts to kind of convert me a little bit. But it was very good. I felt I think for the first time a little bit of sense of purpose cuz he was like, "Yo, let's get up, bro. Sy, let's get up. Let's work out, man." And I'm like, "Cool." And he would challenge. He'd push me. And um I was like in the best shape of my life at that time. And he's like, "You should read this." this and he brought me I remember it was like the art of war um with um General Sunzu and he's like these are your people bro you should read this like you ever done that man Buddhism is amazing too but like and he starts talking about Islam and he's like we're a religion of peace and you know and I learned everything from it and my whole family's from this bloodline and these people and I was like cool I was like can I be a Muslim and he's like yeah 100%. I was like, "Do you think the homies are going to feel some type of way?" Meaning the people on the yard like, "No, no, look it, they respect us." Like the only thing is like being Christian, bro. And he said it, you know, he's like, "And it's no disrespect to them, but like it's just it's very hypocritical. So if you do do this, you have to be 100% in it." And I think that's why, and he explained it, that's why people respect Islam. It's like when we do it, we're all the way in praying five times a day. We take it serious because everything else is haram or sin, you know? And um I'm like cool I I'll do it. >> So Islam's seen as a more rigid, more disciplined religion >> 100% because Christianity seems to be I had uh Sam Harris on the show a couple of years ago and he had this >> description which I've never been able to forget. He says that Islam's a high tea religion. [laughter] >> It is. It's like a high testosterone religion. Whereas Christianity in many ways is turning the other cheek. It's about forgiveness. It's about grace to your neighbor etc etc. Yeah. Uh, so I can imagine in a prison environment where respect and power is really respected. >> Islam would fit itself way more like I mean maybe even lower than the Christians might be the Buddhists because they're all about the peace. Um, true. >> Yeah. That's crazy. Okay. So you start thinking a bit more about theology. >> Yeah. So I start, you know, studying with him and >> he's he was so open-minded that he's like, you know, a true Muslim reads the Bible, too. And I was like, interesting. So he started again teaching me everything. these are the books before it. We got to pull from Moses and all this and we call >> this guy sounds awesome. >> Yeah, he was he was really cool honestly. And he, you know, ends up converting me and we just kind of like for for a good two to three years I'm like 100% hardcore Sunni Muslim and you know I'm learning all these things. The one thing that I started to recognize though is that there was some things that were going against like their teachings was kind of going against how we programmed on the yard. So I think my first religion was gang banging right obviously and it was just a mechanical for me. So I'm sitting there and I'm like well there's certain things that are going against like you know I read verses and I tried to ask him where I saw it was bad was when I asked him he got defensive towards me and that was the first time I saw that when I questioned it was like hey respectfully you don't know the Arabic and you don't know so don't ask me that and he even said it like it's very disrespectful that you're doing that cuz I'm like an imam to you meaning a leader you're not supposed to and I'm like but I thought we're supposed to ask questions and like what the heck? And so that kind of made me feel the betrayal that I felt right from a young age. Like, dang, I finally found something like my hood. No one's visiting me at this time. So, I felt betrayed by them. And then this guy did this where I'm like, yo, I'm leaning on you. And I feel that betrayal again. >> Yep. >> And um the one thing that really solidified me to leave was that again, standup guy. I still respected him as a human being. You know, he was he was well respected. He he was like, "Yeah, I'm getting out of here." So, he was a lifer, but he got out. you know, he got a chance at parole and everyone's like, "Bro, we know you're going to make it out there. You're studied. You're smart." Whatever. Six months later, he comes back. And that's when I realized, holy crap, like, I'm done. I'm not even as disciplined as bro. I'm not as articulate and smart as him. I don't think I'll make it out there. And I remember at that time I was thinking about, should I catch my last strike in here and just live in here because I don't know if I'm going to make it out there. this guy can't make it out there and he he makes up wakes up every morning is disciplined he studied he doesn't even have any like gang in mentality any of that then what the heck I'm cooked basically and so you know I was thinking about that but thank God by the grace of God I was able to make it out and um so I get out and I'm trying to fly straight cuz I'm like I don't want to go back to this um I've spent all of my adolescence basically and youth in prison what do I do now right and I try to fly straight um transparently. I'm like, let me go and and just apply to everything. Home Depot, Walmart. But the way that it was back then, it just wasn't as open as it is now. So, when you check that box that says, "Have you ever committed a crime?" And then you have to give the information and be real. The first couple I lied cuz I was just like, "All right, I'm going to check it. I'm going to say like petty theft or something." Right? But they obviously do a background check and they found out that I had violent crimes and I didn't even get call backs or anything. And so during that time, I think I felt very again very angry and frustrated. And then I was like, "F it, you know, I'm gonna go back to this this life that I know." Started plugging in with the homies, >> started running, started doing stuff. And then was making 40 50k a month allegedly, >> right? And um and and and uh you know, I'm making this money. I got a penthouse now, you know, buying certain things and I'm just living that gangster lifestyle. women and drugs and everything. Um, and yeah, I end up just feeling still this emptiness and this void that I had felt in prison, but I think I had stuffed it away or maybe because of the environment was so chaotic that I didn't really pay attention to, but I had again this emptiness and I'm like, "Okay, maybe I got to make more money. Maybe I got to do more drugs. Maybe I got to" and I just amped it up. I went crazy with it to to the point where I almost overdosed. It was crazy. Still emptiness. And I the way I describe it was like a hole in my heart that no matter what I did, it didn't matter the productivity that I did. I could make way more money this month. It did not matter. It was like at night time it would be my thoughts would come and haunt me. It would be one thought leads into 10 thoughts leads into 50 thoughts. I'm feeling like nothing's happening externally. Everything is internal. I feel this emptiness and this void in my heart. Feels like somebody's stepping on my heart. I can't even like inhale and exhale. And then I just would cry. I would straight up like don't know why I would be like a I'm so empty. What's wrong with me? And then I would try to fight it. No, I'm a man. I don't do this. Like I'm good. I'm going to get up tomorrow and I'm going to try again. And then it was this constant, best way to explain it was like a roller coaster lifestyle. Happy when I was happy for a little bit and then sad, happy, sad, happy, sad, happy, sad. And then I felt very, very empty inside. And um I think at that time was when I decided to try to take my life because I'm like, "Okay, I come up from the projects. I'm I'm living off of food stamps when I was a kid. I finally get out. I had this dream that if I make 5 to 10k a month, I'm set. I'm making 10x 5x 10x that." And I'm still not happy. Everyone around me is like wanting my lifestyle. Cuz when you go to prison, it is an ecosystem where it's networking. So when I get out, I know other people have got out and because we we run by the same program, we don't snitch. We're solid. We start to do business together. And so you start to open up these different streams of income, right? Just solely based off of your name in prison that you're good. And so, you know, I'm making all of this money and I'm just like, why am I not happy? And then during that time, you know, uh a friend of mine, he's like, rest his soul, but he's like, yeah, bro, like we we got to get up out this game. I think we got to try to like fly straight. He's talking about investing and I was like, "What the heck is all this stuff?" You know, he's like, "We can't do this." You know, there's an expiration. And I'm like, "All right." He was always level-headed, a much smarter person than me. So, there's gang members and gang bangers, right? He was a gang member, meaning like he didn't really do work. He was like the brains and like a like membership. Gang banger is someone like me just crashing out. I'll do it. Yeah. Like just crash dummy, right? And so we had a like a perfect combination cuz he was like the brains and I was like the brun. So we we we you know planned to to rob this uh well-known drug dealer um in our area and he was like a multi-millionaire you know Porsches and you know Ferrari and all this stuff. And so um you know I I I I go there at night. We're we're planning on taking like 25 packs and some keys of cocaine and we were just going to rob him of it, right? But we we acted like we were buyers. Like, oh yeah, we're interested, but we're going to lick him. Um the plan was for me to go to the right of the car and the homie was supposed to go to the left of the car. So, I step to the right. He ends up stepping to the right with me and I'm like, "Okay." So, I naturally obviously just go to the left and I'm going to the driver's side and I'm like, "Yo, what's up on me?" like and then when I pull the gun I hear three shots ring out this way and I actually assumed at first that it was my homie who just lit him up and I was like what the heck and then the guy's like driving off and then I feel the bullets whizzing and then I see my friend had fallen. So we didn't know that the guy had some his homie in the back like just sitting there too just in case he was going to get robbed. [clears throat] We didn't know that. We thought it was just him cuz he was known for just off the strength. People would respect him. They wouldn't rob him. So he'd go by himself, but we were like, "No, we're going to get you." You know, but um he was ready. He he was ready. And and it was that time that my friend died in my arms. And I think during that time I had survivors guilt because I'm like I was supposed to die, right? Um if he didn't step in front of me, I think I would have got lit up for sure and I wouldn't be here. And so that happens. And then uh you know a few days after I get a kite from the pen uh penitentiary which is this cryptive secret letter and note uh from a friend of mine who also grew up in the projects with me. Um he did a lot of stuff with me. It was in the gang as well. And he ends up um you know just writing this eerie hey brother I miss you. I'll see you when I see you. Um you know I remember the good times. When you miss me look to the mountains. You know just weird things like this. And I'm like and I find out that he hung himself in prison. And then there's a youngster who I was very in love with. He was like a carbon copy of me when I was 12. He was 15, 16. He ends up um you know getting shot from a car to car shooting, dies on the scene. So within a matter of a week and a half, two weeks this is h this has happened. And so in my head obviously I'm like okay not only is this a tremendous like I can't handle this anymore but I also feel this this this it was like death in the air and as crazy as that is thinking you're in prison and all that. I never actually felt that. I knew like there was death but I don't feel like it would ever come to me at this moment. It felt like there was an energy that was chasing me like >> circling you. >> Yeah. like you're gonna die soon. The supplement industry is full of products making claims that they can't back, which is why I'm such a massive fan of Momenus. Their co-founder Jeff Buyers played in the NFL and saw firsthand just how wildly the quality of supplements can vary. So, he built Momentus around a higher standard. Every product from Momenus uses evidencebacked ingredients, transparent doses, and independent third-party testing. Everything is NSF certified for sport, so what's on the label is actually what's in the tub. It's why Momentus is trusted inside all 32 NFL locker rooms. It's why I've trusted them with my own supplements for years. Best of all, Momentus offers a 30-day money back guarantee. So, you can buy it and try it for 29 days. If you don't love it, they will give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you get up to 35% off your first subscription. And that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemus.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's l i v e m o m n o us.com/modernwisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. Yeah, it was just bad. It was bad. And but again, did not know what to do, right? I'm like, okay, well, I guess I'm going to die then. Like, whatever. I'm going to just live however I want because there's no hope in me. Um, and then my mom's car breaks down and it's in it's in San Bernardino and that's about an hour away from where we live and the church that she's she goes to. And at this time, you know, my mom's from Korea. Ethnically, though, she's Chinese, so she's born in Korea, speaks Korean, speaks Mandarin and English. She's triilingual. Um, she she then is gets a job essentially at the church as like an interpreter, right? Um, for the pastors, and she's she calls me and she's like, "Johnny, my my my car is broken down. Can you come and pick me up?" You know? Um, okay, cool. Where are you at? San Bernardino. Oh my gosh. Sano is like an hour away. Like, what are you doing out there? And she's like, "Well, car overheated. Um, it's hot out here. Can you please just come and take me?" My brother's in prison. He's doing his 14-year bid at this time. My dad is obviously deadbeat dad. He's just not in the picture. He's drunk all the time still. So, I'm like, [snorts] "All right, let me just go help mom, you know, let me do this solid for her." End up going picking her up and remember on the car ride to the church, I'm like, "Mom, do not invite me to this church. Like, I know how you Christians get down. You guys love to convert people and do all this crap." So I remember telling her I'm not going to go in. >> Are you cons still considering yourself Muslim at this time? >> No. No. I was already just kind of like traditionally Buddhist but like not practicing and kind of just atheist, right? I'm like there's something but I don't it's like I don't care, you know? It's like whatever. So I end up um you know taking her there and then I remember mom opened the door and then the smell of black bean noodles uh enters the the car and it's my favorite dish, bro. It's like a Korean dish delicacy. It's like a dry cooked noodle. It's amazing. And I smell it and I'm like, "Whoa, this is fire." And I had forgotten that because my dad was a chef. But the one thing he would do which was really weird and I now I know why in hindsight this is 2020 is he would beat me. And his way of saying sorry was he would cook black bean noodles for me. And so I almost had this kind of connection to him through that where it's like okay he would beat me up but then it would be like the best tasting noodles. and he was a he's a really good chef, you know. Um, so I remember that kind of triggered a memory, but it felt like comforting in some kind of way. And so I see the pastor and he just sees me and he's kind of shocked, too, like, "Oh, shoot." Like, "Are you Johnny?" Who are you? J, he goes, "Are you James or are you Johnny?" Which is my my older brother and me. And I'm like, "Oh, I'm Johnny." He goes, "Well, nice to meet you. I'm Pastor Kim. You know, um, your mom, you know, I'm so sorry. Like your mom kind of drove really far. Um, thank you for picking her up. you know, we'll help her with her car if she needs. It's okay. Um but yeah, you know, we made some black bean noodles, Johnny. And um I can put it in a to-go container and then just send it send you off your way. And for some reason, cuz I was really big about respect in the Asian culture, um you know, even in prison, like if you eat, you don't try to eat by yourself. Like you you break spread, as we say, like you you bring everybody together and you just chill and you eat. So, in that culture and then kind of in the gang culture, it's ingrained. I was just kind of like like I feel a little disrespectful if I just took the food and just left. >> So, I was just like, "Yeah, I'll I'll come in and eat with you guys." And then my mom, I remember looking at me like, "What the hell? You just said you weren't going to like come in." The pastor was just kind of like, "Oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you can come in. Like, sure, no problem. Um, we're all eating, but like Yeah." Yeah. And then I remember him taking me to the back room and yeah, he brought me the the the black bean noodles in a bowl. Brought me these um like daon. It was like yellow daon. And when I was eating it, it was so good. I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." And it was again handmade, homemade, just authentic. Um and then I sit down with him and then he he talks about, you know, uh he starts to ask me questions. He asked me these these questions that kind of like piss me off at first cuz he goes, "Are you a sinner and do you know what sin is?" Right? And I'm like, "Here we go." So I just tell the pastor like, "Hey pastor, respectfully, I was a Muslim, not practicing anymore. I do believe and lean more towards like peace and like Buddhism. Um, so I'm not really here for that, but you know, respectfully, like I know what sin is and of course I'm a sinner. And he's just like, "Well, what is it?" Right? And I'm like, "Well, it's you doing evil things that are not, you know, according to God." And and yes, have I done evil things? Of course, I was in a gang. And then he goes, "Not so, like that's not true." And I was like, "What?" And I remember Catholics coming into the prisons. They had uh Mormons coming into prisons, other Protestants, everybody would explain sin as breaking the commandments, messing up, going against God, and you have to repent, right? Sin and repentance. I knew that even though I wasn't a believer, and he it's from him, he was like, "No, it's an identity issue." So right there he taught me basically um you know the the origin of original sin and how it's an identity and he used a lot of analogies. He was like you're born Chinese. And I'm like yes did you choose to be Chinese? I'm like no. What the heck is this guy talking to? He's about to get racist right now. You know and he's just like do you if you eat a lot of orange chicken would that make you more Chinese? And I'm like no. And he goes, "If you eat less orange chicken and fried rice and chowine, would that make you less Chinese?" And I'm just like, "Bro, get to the point, you know." And he's just like, "So, why are you Chinese?" And I'm like, "Why [laughter] am I I'm born that way." And he goes, "Exactly." He goes, "Sin is the same way. Um, you're born into this sin. Um, you're trying to do good in your life. You can't. And it's this constant uphill battle." And he goes, "You know what that bleeds into is emptiness. the outcome of trying to do good, an imperfect person trying to produce perfection, you then keep falling short and then when you keep falling short, you feel empty. And that's the first time somebody articulated what I was feeling inside of my heart to me. >> And I'm like kind of blown away cuz I'm like first off, this guy's ballsy, right? He's telling me as a gang member that I'm I'm empty [snorts] basically. I'm not a man. I can't I don't have emotional regulation and you know maturity and EQ. And he goes, "But the thing he follows up with is that's normal. What you feel, Johnny, is normal." Now, all throughout my life, from my dad to even my mom calling me a monster, my dad saying I never wanted you, beating me, me being known as a YA number and a CDC, California Department Corrections number. That's the first time he kind of like humanized me, right? He's like, "You're normal." and you're you're gonna feel empty until you figure out what I'm about to tell you. And so he then explains it, right? That's why you need someone to save you out of it. You know, there's this person named Jesus, right? And I'm like, I know. I've heard of this guy, right? And he goes, um, we call him our Lord and Savior for a reason. He's like, it's to he has to save you. And he used a lifeguard analogy, right? He's like, if you're drowning and you know you're in the middle of the ocean and there's no one around you, what can you only do? Die, right? Um, but if a lifeguard comes and pulls you out from a boat and puts you on land, you didn't save yourself. The lifeguard saved you. In the same way, you're drowning in your depression. You're drowning in your past trauma. You're drowning in your loneliness, emptiness, anxiety, everything. You can't get yourself out of it. You're trying and you do well for a little and you fail. And Jesus is the one who has to get you out of it. And I guess for the first time in my life, it just clicked. It made sense. No one has ever explained that to me. I think all other religions were always like, "Hey, you got to do it." There's a level of you meeting God, right? Um and and again, it was all mechanical for me. I I I realized that, oh my gosh, it's true. >> Productivity output was what I was focused on. And and the issue with that is I'm at the center of that. So if I'm putting productivity, if I'm putting, you know, everything depends on my last result, let's say, then yeah, I'm going to live like a roller coaster. Of course, I'm going to fail. And so it just it just made sense to me. You know, he put it in a way that was so palatable and digestible and simple yet profound. And it felt for the first time in my life like true hope in this man. And again, I didn't know him from like a bum on the street. He's this Korean dude, short dude, cleancut cut. Mind you, he's speaking through a translator as well, cuz his English isn't even good. So, this random dude on the side who's just like speaking English, and I'm like, "Who the hell are you? You're like all up in our business, but he didn't know how to speak English, right?" And so, I'm like, "Okay, all this is happening. My mom's on the side. She's like kind of like getting emotional and he's just like, "Does this make sense, Johnny?" Like, I'm like, "Yeah, 100%." So, but then what do I do now practically speaking? what am I just thank you Jesus and that's it like everything gets better I don't understand and so he was explaining uh you know all of these just core concepts to me that I've never heard and basically the best way I could put it is he put like a mirror in front of me for the first time humanized me said I was normal and then said this is what's wrong with you this is how I'm going to help you with these things so he he in that moment I didn't realize kind of was mentoring me again something I was longing for a father figure didn't have any of that. And um yeah, he started to just guide me through these things. And I think we ended up staying there for like almost 2 hours just talking like this. And at the end of it, I felt this piece of like, oh my gosh, I I'm not alone. There is light at the end of the tunnel. I I now just have to figure out and listen to this dude. He just understands me, which is wild, right? And um he challenges me that day actually which I think was very again very bold of this dude but I respected it because I'm like this guy's like really just not a normal person. He goes how is your relationship with your father? And I'm like [sighs] horrible and I know what's coming right. You want me to forgive him? Like basically is what I said. And he's like no not necessarily. He's like I just I want to show you some scriptures. And he showed me Romans 7:15. Romans 7:20 basically says that there are people that do things that they don't want to do. Like they want to be happy, they want to be loving, but then they end up addicted and they do the things that they don't want to do. He goes, "You, for example, did you ever think you wanted to wake up and go, you know what? I'm I'm going to be depressed today." And I'm like, "No." He said, "You probably hate depression." I'm like, "Yeah." And he goes, "And yet you end up depressed. Why do you think that is?" And I'm like, "I don't know." And then he gives me the verse 720. If I do the things that I'm doing, it's no more I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. And he explains it. It's because you waking up going, I'm not going to be depressed today. I'm not going to be this today. Is the same as saying, I'm not going to be Asian today or Chinese today. And he's like, do you think that's possible or impossible? Like impossible. He's like, and it's also because you've never learned you've never learned another system other than this system here, right? And so he's like, I if you're willing to like I want to like help you with that, but there's one thing that I need from you. And then he talks about my dad, right? He he goes, "You should apologize to your father." And I'm like, literally, I mean, excuse my language, but I was like, "Fuck that." I straight up told him, "Fuck that." And he was just like, "That's fair. That's valid. Hear me out. You know, hear me out." He goes, "I understand." And I'm like, "Where does the vict?" And I couldn't even articulate my words cuz I was pissed. Where does the the the guy that gets beaten up has to say so? You know, and he goes, "Yeah, where the victim apologized, it's true." He goes, "But as right as you are, Johnny, you're also miserable." >> Um, if you're being honest, you know, I've been honest with you, so please be honest with me. Do you ever look at other families and look at other people and go, "Man, I wish my dad was like that." And I said, "Of course." I said, "But that ship has sailed." You know, it's like defensive and, you know, I don't care anymore. If he dies, I don't I'm not going to visit him. And he goes, you know, as right as you are, you're miserable because of that. Um, you're the judge of everything. And so he goes, the reason why I'm telling you to say sorry is because I have faith that, and he used an analogy, when two countries go to war, they're both fighting for what they believe in is true and what they believe is right. And during that time, countries are broken, people die. There is no peace, only chaos. He goes, "Your father, however, um, if this word and you believe pertains to you, also pertains to every human being. Would you agree?" And I was like reluctantly like, "Yeah, that's true. I I could see that." And he goes, "Um, your dad also probably had some stuff in him. And I'm not saying what he did was okay, but he kind of just humanized my dad." And he goes, "If you say sorry, uh, it's like that country that just conceds. All right, fine. Take the resources. Do whatever you got to do." Then they rebuild it and at least peace flows in and that's important, right? And so he goes, you you know if you do this, I think your dad would mend the relationship with you. So two hearts I remember came up, two thoughts was, why do I even care to mend the relationship with some somebody like this? But the other side of it was also like, dang, this guy knows what he's talking about. He's dissecting me in a way. He's obviously super smart and articulate. He's thinking on a different level. >> If I don't listen to bro, I think I'm gonna struggle. Like he has like the antidote >> and I just felt like I had to hear him out and I had to try and >> sounds like a lot of respect. >> Yeah. And I super respected him because of that. And um again I was still shocked cuz I just met this guy. But I just again no one has ever articulated anything like that. >> Decoded you in through a translator in the space of two hours. >> Literally. Literally. And I'm like, "That's crazy." And so, you know, he goes, "I I don't know you." He goes, "But the Bible is about you and it's about Jesus and I know the Bible, so that's why I kind of know what you're going through." Cuz I asked him, "How do you even know these things?" So, anyways, fast forward, I end up meeting with my dad and this is the thing I went viral for essentially. But I, you know, meet my dad, it's tense. Remember calling him and the first thing he says is, "Who is this?" And I'm like, "Bro, I'm your son and you don't even know my voice." Cuz we haven't seen each other for like, you know, 12, 13, 14 years. [snorts] And I'm like, "Yeah, it's Johnny." And he goes, "Uh, I don't have any money." And I was like, "I don't need your money." Right. And then I remember just like getting so mad at him, but I like remembered what the pastor was saying, like, "Maybe it's not." >> This just after that 2-hour meeting. >> This was Yeah. about a day after. I had to sit on it for a little bit, but it was like 24 hours after. And Yeah. And then I I remember just calling him and I'm like, "Hey, Dad. I want to meet you somewhere. Um, let's meet up here, Noodle City in in on Sixth Street in Alhamra, F Restaurant." And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, that's fine. We'll meet. Like, what do you need? We'll meet." So, I end up getting there and it's weird. I see my dad. He's aged now. He's like a little chunkier, you know? And he's just like I see him. I sit down in front of him and like at first I feel frustration and tension. I remember it's just like this feeling of like why am I here? I feel stupid. And if I say something and he doesn't respond the way that I want him to, I'll probably kill him for real. And so I'm like all right. Like and I'm sitting there and he's like, "What did you want to talk to me about?" And I was like, "Dad, I'm sorry." Like I remember just rushing it, right? I'm sorry. You know, I'm sorry that I was a bad son. I'm sorry that I joined a gang and I ruined your American dream. I'm sorry that I couldn't help you. And I remember not not even making eye contact with him, just like looking down. And I look up thinking my dad's going to be like, "Yeah, you should be sorry." And he ends up looking at me and I see his eyes like he starts to like have tears. He starts crying and [snorts] he's like, "You know, Johnny, I'm sorry. Like I waited a very long time for this, you know, but I didn't know how to approach it. Like the reason why I didn't go to p uh visit you in prison is because I felt like I created you in a way, you know, and he's and I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I always saw my dad as like narcissistic. Never could be wrong. He's never said I love you and he's never said I'm sorry. So I remember just crying, too. It shocked me. And um yeah, it felt like that that those years of pain just pretty much went away. And then I hugged him, which was crazy. So that's the first time he said I love you and I'm sorry in the same sentence and we just reconciled you know and then I was like dang pastors got the wisdom like like [laughter] I I was literally like how does bro know this like and and I think that for me was just enough to be like okay there must be a god there must be like how does how is it that I went completely against what I thought and felt and then experienced this you know um and then he started to train me. That's what surrendering is. You know, surrendering is not, oh, let me see if it makes sense and then I'll let go. Um, faith is also not, oh, it needs to make sense and then I'll let go. Right? And so, he was explaining that to me. Um, and then over the years, he's nurtured me. My dad stopped drinking. My dad met that pastor too, received salvation as well. Um, he goes to church now. My dad was hardcore like not he was agnostic. like he was just like I don't even you know he went from that to going if if this God changed my son Johnny to be this way like there must be something you know and um he's yeah goes to church it's funny he used to always talk trash about Christians too all they want is your money you know and it's like crazy stuff but looking back at it I'm just very proud of him yeah >> Jared you ever considered you might have a drinking problem >> I don't consider a lot Chris >> what you drank an entire case of athletic brewing cola last night, >> but they're non-alcoholic >> and that's not a problem. >> Sorry, man. I kept chugging, waiting for the regret to creep in. Never happened. >> Didn't you end up going home with that chick with the lazy eye? >> I didn't seem lazy to me. >> See, most people like Jared don't actually want to change what they drink. They just don't want the next day to be a complete write-off. 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Um I think the part of me that didn't fully die and what I mean by that is on both sides of the cross right before Christianity and after Christianity [snorts] there was this thing that I would struggle with with like there's still me kind of having my hands on the wheel like I still am a master of my destiny in some way like yeah you can have faith but you got to get the put the steps in and put the reps in and it was like again I was very productive as a human being right and discipline. So I think that part was like if you let that go yes it seems like it's peaceful but then it was scary because I think what I struggled with was control right like so in order to have peace I thought you have to have more control right so I used to think I had anxiety and depression because those were my issues what I learned and what I realized was I was having control issues. >> And what I mean is when things would go Johnny's way and I had a control on it, then I could feel like, oh, okay, I'm safe, right? Even in prison, I had to control my program, do my own thing. But as soon as I didn't have control, then that would equate to danger and fear and then not peace. >> But the Christian mindset is you're not in control. the control comes from from God >> and you do you plan boldly surrender daily as we say. So that was the thing that I think was like the hardest thing was okay, I got to let go of my thoughts and my interpretations and my feelings and go against what the Bible is saying or I'm sorry take up what the Bible is saying which is you can't do anything. He has to do everything. That part scared me. >> But that was the thing they were saying was going to give me peace. >> So that was the the the the internal battle. You got the word uh passivity, being passive sort of coming to mind or this fear of passivity. I think this is >> I've had this conversation with a bunch of friends. One of the most valuable traits that >> I have in my entire life is agency, right? My ability to happen to life, not for life to happen to me. >> And I can see surrender, relinquishing of control, faith, giving yourself over to a higher power. Yeah, >> if you're the sort of person that's self-made, self-powered, sovereign, >> blending these two worlds together is >> difficult. >> Really hard. >> Who else is going to make it happen? >> Yep. >> You tell me that I'm supposed to just like hope. >> That's because the line the line between [sighs and gasps] handing off control to faith >> and giving in giving up effort. Yeah, >> it >> very thin. >> Yeah, very very very thin. And um I can't remember who it is. >> There's a there's a line that I love which is uh God will steer the boat, but you still have to row. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And this idea of okay, the direction might be something that's guided if you're a person of faith, but the effort still has to be there. Sure. Right. Or else you end up just lying in your bed wishing, believing, not achieving. >> 100%. I think that's, you know, I mentor a lot of people and they ask me the same thing, right? How do I surrender? You know, it's like without just being careless and like laxed and not motivated, right? Cuz a lot of people are motivated but then you know how I explain to people is yeah you have to plan boldly. The Bible even tells us like who sits back and then plans to build builds a house without planning without a blueprint. Right? So I think people get this misunderstanding uh of Christianity where it's like you have to just let go control completely. You don't do anything. It's like no, you do everything with the heart of hey God, I hope the outcome is this. If it's aligned with what you want, you're going to make it happen. And then it's just passing the glory to him. That's the understanding that made me let go of control in that way where I still work every day. I still I'm I'm up at 4 in the morning every single day. We did in these three days like three separate podcasts. We're doing turn and burn. I mean, if I had that mindset of, yeah, I'm just going to pray and then it's going to come to me. That's not how it works, right? But the Bible, again, that's a misconception that people have where it's like you got to just do nothing, right? And [snorts] no, you still have to work, but the outcome is in his hands. It's this idea of grace of going, "Hey, God, I'm going to put all of my work in if you want to bless it." and we realign with you, >> go ahead. If not, then give me the heart to realign. >> How do you distinguish between God [snorts] speaking to you and guiding you >> and your own inner monologue? >> Yes. >> Because for a very long time, your gut instinct led you to >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> fire bullets out of a car. >> Yeah. >> Or pop off on someone who didn't need it. >> 100%. 100%. >> How do you learn what is uh >> God? >> Impulsivity. >> Yeah. Yeah. and a word that you should listen to. >> Yeah. So for me it's not again I think there's a lot of emotionalism in religion nowadays right when it comes to the gospel. However, it's about the word. So what I've learned I've read the Bible front to back 27 times. It's not to flex. What my pastor taught me was you have to go to the word always. So when you seek something, it cannot come from inside of you because your standard can change. Your feelings and emotions can change. Your voices in your head. You can be locked in one day. It can change. It's very in unstable. So your job is to go to the word or the servants who know the word. Right? So if I'm doing anything, it's always what does the word say about this? What can I actively search and seek for? And obviously when you first start out, you don't know the word like that. So it's a lot of like still you leading yourself. But what I learned was if it doesn't match the word of God and doesn't point to God in some way, shape, or form, it's not going to be from God, no matter how good it feels. And I think that's the issue with a lot of Christians nowadays is this this idea of emotionalism, right? It's like >> if I follow myself exactly, I thought I would die from my hood and that led me to shoot and be like, well, I did it for my homies. I'm protecting them. Like, we could spin it however we want because it's subjective and relative. Um, the absolute for me was the word. It went completely against my thoughts and my feelings. Literally says in the Bible, my thoughts are not your thoughts. My way is not your way. So get to know me. Meaning the word. Um when I started to read it five times front to back, you know, cover to cover. I started to get this discernment. Oh, this is what God would want in this way. So when you move it this way, it's no longer you Johnny. What do you think? I think the issue with a lot of people in in religion aside is I am the judge. And again, I can be the judge if everything's going good, but what if I'm handicapped? What if I'm broken? What if I'm empty? Then what I produce will be probably those things as well, right? And so, um, yeah, I had to unlearn a lot of that and go, I can't really follow. You know, obviously we have practical thoughts. Am I hungry? Should I do this? Right? But I'm saying when things come, it has to like when an opportunity comes, what the way I'm thinking is what does scripture say about this? what would God think about this? Right? At the very least, this you're you're realigning foundationally versus, oh yeah, I want that deal cuz I want it. And then trying to bend God's will to like, you know, do that, right? So, um I think that's the difference between, you know, what I believe in versus someone going, "Well, God told me." Okay, God told you, but in Hebrews 4:12, it says discernment comes from the word. So, God told you. Where's the scripture to back up what he told you? And that's the center line. So a lot of people God told me he put it in my heart. I download it. Okay, great. What I'm looking for after that is what scripture is saying. And Holy Spirit, it's called the spirit of truth will lead you back to the word. It says, right? >> So you can't just be like, "Holy Spirit told me to buy a Ferrari." And it's like, "Sure, but where is the scripture to line this up, right?" Um, and if they can back it up and the scripture always points back to Jesus, John 5:39, that's how we know, oh, this is the voice of God. This is how God speaks to us. >> Did becoming Christian ever feel like becoming weak? >> 100%. >> For a good while, self-powered, agentic, I'm going to make things happen. Then you get into prison, high tea religion, right? Islam. And now you're, you know, within 24 hours forgiving your dad. You're turning the other cheek. You're crying. He's crying. >> This is not There's a a big disconnect between the person that you were and the person that you're becoming now. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think it did. Um, until I realized that my filter of like what weak and strong was was distorted. I think it took a lot of I mean, honestly, I know this sounds crazy, but like when I was in the gang, like pulling the trigger and doing things like that was fairly easy for me because for me it was like, bro, this is a chance for you to shine, right? Like people are going to be enamored by you when you do that. They're going to love you for doing this. um when you're a Christian and you're like turn the other cheek, it's like okay, that's kind of performative in a lot of ways, at least for me. So, I learned like, you know, it was a lot harder uh to be a Christian. Uh you know, and I say this all the time. It's like my gang had six other gangs that were against us. We were in a green light against the Mexicans. Um and you know, no one liked us. We were EBK. Stands for everybody killer. We weren't cool with anybody. How is it that I'm getting more I'm I'm getting more attacked now that I'm Christian than I was when I was in a gang. No one cared about what I said. No one made videos about me back then. Um so you know it just goes to show that uh it is it's weak in a in a sense of sure like bravado high te you know high tea and testosterone but at the end of the day I think it's actually true it takes a lot of strength to go I want to handle it the easy way and the easy route which is being violent so that every why would I talk to you I just beat the dog crap out of you or um do I choose you know to go they may be wrong but let me like hear them out, let me like be human and rationalize with people and have dialogue. Um, I think that was very very difficult, but once I learned it, it just became it was like uh it was like strength almost. Yeah. >> On the list of things that you've done in your life, how high up the scary ranking does having that conversation with your dad go? >> Oh, that was Yeah. One of the that was right next to going back to prison to preach. So, they they go neck and neck. So I would say it's like one and two, >> you know, it it just switches depending on the mood. >> But that's my point that um >> the bravado side of what does real strength look like? What does re real fearlessness Yeah. >> look like? Um it's strange like how is it that somebody can run an ultramarathon 100 miles but not have a difficult conversation with their partner? M >> you know where are you applying your I do hard things muscle. >> You know a lot of the time people will be prepared to get up at 4 in the morning and do the ice plunge and go for the run and stick to their diet but they can't tell their parents that something really got to them that happened last week or they're scared of opening up to their friend about how they're getting on mentally. You go okay well >> that's not I'm not saying that the cold plunge in the 4 a.m. run is not tough. It is. But it's it seems obvious that there's certain areas of your life where you're prepared to be tough. There's other areas where if we were to make a measurement, you're kind of weak. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And I think just like to kind of tack on to that, too. I mean, being weak is something that I also had to unlearn, right? Where it's like weak to you, again, even that is also subjective in a lot of ways, right? So, I had to learn like, yeah, being weak to me doesn't actually mean you're weak. it's just you not getting there and you got to like unlearn a bunch of things, you know. So, um yeah, but I also think kind of to your point, people are >> for me at least, it was also pride. Um I think that was the the it was it was pride in in that I can't show weakness by being vulnerable because no one ever taught me that being vulnerable was strength, right? So, um, yeah, and and it was difficult for me, but I think after just seeing it, >> kind of like riding a bike, you do it a few times and it just becomes you get the hang of it. >> I remember as well, suppression isn't the same thing as strength. >> Suppression is different to strength. And I think a lot of what people do, what they they claim as strength is not. It's it's subjugation. It's uh sublimation of whatever they're feeling into something else. >> Um, but it's not suppression. is not the same thing as strength. >> Yeah, agreed. Bars. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> What have you learned about forgiveness? >> Um, I've learned that forgiveness is not usually for the other person, but for you. [gasps] I think when you're forgiving somebody, a lot of people have this misconception, at least I did, where it's like, hey, I'm going to forgive this person um because they deserve it. And I think that's why they struggle with forgiving, right? Because you're not going to forgive somebody who doesn't deserve it. It's just natural. Um, what I realized was forgiving somebody was like you taking off the shackles of yourself and just making the decision of going, I'm never going to let these people like have that control or part uh uh influence on on my emotion or on my life, you know. So I think the hardest thing to learn that I learned from uh forgiveness uh was also the the most beautiful thing is like it's not for them it's actually important for you to move forward. The second thing I also learned was it became easier when I was able to think outside of myself too. Right? So it goes like double-edged sword. Yes, you got to think about yourself, of course, cuz you know that matters. But you also have to take you have to have the I guess the maturity to step out of yourself and go, where was I like this? So, you know, I'll give you an example like when it came to my father and I saw that he was he betrayed me. He promised things, you know, to us as kids. I remember he wasn't always bad. Like there was certain times where he would try to like said he was going to take us to Universal or Disneyland and then didn't do it cuz he got drunk and I felt that betrayal. Uh the way that I was able to think was okay outside of people doing me dirty, how many times did I betray other people and then how many times that I betray okay forget other people. How many times did I betray God? Right? I'm sitting there and I'm like Jesus I'm going to do this and then I don't do it. um you know, I'm going to I'll stop this for you and I I don't stop. Then in that way, I was able to be like, whoa, the fact that my dad is still breathing, um the fact that he, you know, and other people who did me dirty are are still alive is proof that there's mercy there. Cuz if God had to destroy um that person or reprimand that person, then I also would have to be reprimanded as well cuz [clears throat] I did the same thing. We're all the same. Um, so I think for me it just made me, you know, yes, think about myself, but then also think outside of myself and go, man, God, like how many times did I do you dirty? Like many, many times. And I continue to. It's just part of our broken nature. And yet, you don't like send a lightning bolt and strike me down. You don't, you know, you're you're very loving to me to still. You give me opportunities and and you bless me. And so, yeah, it also had to take me to think outside of myself. And I think that's a very difficult thing that I see with a lot of people. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> Is it harder to forgive yourself or forgive your dad? >> It was harder to forgive myself. I would say cuz I've like my dad after understanding that he had trauma that he had at 19 years old, ran over somebody and took the guy's life, you know, his dad was an alcoholic and beat him. Like it was easier to go, okay, I get it. You know, I'm the same. We We're literally two P's in a pod. What was difficult was there's times where I knew what I was doing was wrong and I still did it. >> I think that was very difficult. >> Consciousness. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It was like I would I would be lying, you know, and and the one thing I I I think I've seen across all convicts, you I've been to many prisons in my life and just even now visiting is nobody talks about their crimes. like true people who really have done dirt, they don't talk about it. Um, and I realize it's because it brings so much shame and guilt, right? Cuz when you're doing something like that and you're boasting about it, I mean, you see like rappers and stuff like that's the cool thing to do. That's what they their persona. But I've seen real convicts who they look completely great books smart jailhouse lawyers and look like they would never hurt a fly and you you hear like they leak a little what they did and you're like dude you're a monster. You killed five people. Like what the hell? It's like crazy. Um so what I see in in that is that there's a lot of guilt and there's a lot of shame and we don't we just don't you wouldn't want to rehash or talk about those types of things. So that being said, it's very difficult because the condemnation comes. >> You chose, you knew, >> and you even had a choice. You feel culpable. Yeah. Exactly. And you're just like, so what? You still did it. And I think that's the most uh that was the toughest thing for me was to be like, okay, God forgave me, but like I still remember my sins. I still remember what I did. And it was very difficult but thankfully >> forgiving yourself for not forgiving yourself yet is an interesting line. >> Yeah. >> Like I uh I recently went and did a 7-day meditation retreat and one of the days we [clears throat] focused on forgiveness. It's very interesting and the loop that they got you into because it was all high-powered Silicon Valley people silent retreat. So, you know, we're locked in doing, >> you know, four, six, eight hour sits per day, you know, accumulated a lot of time, a lot of time in silence. >> And um, everybody wants to do it right. >> Everyone wants to get it right. I want to make progress. I want to show and the >> okay, today is forgiveness. I'm going to [ __ ] forgive everybody, including myself. And then you don't. And the kind of judo throw uno reverse card that they suggested was, you know, you can forgive yourself for not forgiving yourself yet. >> Yeah. >> And this tiny little gesture of >> all right. All right. I I guess I work hard and I really want to do this thing and I haven't yet. And >> okay, well that it's I I really appreciate you trying so much. >> Yeah. [gasps] >> And there's just a little bit of release that's there. I wrote this thing down. And I wanted to tell you um one of my notes from my journal while I was away. It was the forgiveness day. It says, "Forgiveness is choosing to no longer suffer the things that you cannot change. >> It is simply to give up on the hope of changing the past. It's awfully useless to cling to the idea of altering history. We forgive to a light in ourselves." >> Yeah, >> I thought that was really nice. The idea it's it's useless to cling to the idea of altering history. You can't do it. And it's just giving up on the hope of changing the past. When you see it like that, it becomes >> maybe that's a bit of a um productivity uh trick to kind of make it functional. But I think if you get in, you go, "Okay, this thing happened that I did or somebody else did or someone did to me or I did to someone else >> and I can't change it." >> Yeah. >> What am I carrying? >> Like what am I carrying here? Have I learned from it? Have I prostrated myself enough? Have I whipped myself into submission sufficiently? >> Right. >> Okay. Well, [clears throat] maybe I can give myself a little bit of room. And if I can't, maybe I can give myself a little bit of room about not giving myself a little bit of room. And that's the gateway drug to started to spiral. >> 100%. Yeah, that's deep. That's super deep. What What do you do if someone comes? So, for me, I always like there's all this information out there, but there's very little application, right? So like practically speaking if someone is like you know they come to you Chris or they come to me you know what would you say to someone who's like hey I want to forgive myself I don't know how and then let's say we say those things to them right it's like oh great good information but like what how do I now apply that to myself like you say let go people are always doing that with Christianity they're saying have faith have fa okay but how how do you how do I have faith teach me how like how would you actually >> is I mean making anything esoteric or conceptual practical is is hard. >> I think at least something that's worked for me is inviting the parts of me that I'm not so proud of or that I wish I didn't have or thoughts from the past. Inviting them in. And this is the Janna practice, the meditation that I followed for a good while and still do now. >> It sees you as different parts, different bits of you. Oh, there's that bit of me that is frustrated that things aren't going well during this meditation sit. >> Yeah. >> Uh and I see it and I think, huh, I know that that's annoying, but also I really appreciate that part of me that wants to do well. >> Like, look at how hard he's working. Okay, you come here. You bring these parts of you in. And I think that a lot of >> even great mindfulness practices, even going to the gym, >> like you're almost pushing away these parts. You're not bringing them into you. here's a bit of me that I don't feel too good about. And if I get enough endorphins, it kind of >> sends him over the far side of the room. It staves him off for a little while. >> As opposed to being like, >> "Huh, you're here for a reason. I'm really glad that you're here. And hey, you're like a, you know, I had this vision uh in my mind. It goes to show just how [ __ ] 20 26ined I am. But I had this vision in my mind that there's there was this part of me that wanted to do things really well, that wanted to work incredibly hard, that wants to get it right, wants to be seen and and and follow the rules and and and do stuff. And he's like a Roomba, you know, one of those robot vacuums, but [laughter] he's just overly enthusiastic. And he's going around [ __ ] like gets stuck in corners bouncing up against stuff. He's cleaning an area he's already cleaned 20 times before. And I was like, he's trying so hard. I really really appreciate how hard he's trying. >> Come here. like you can come in and be a part of that. So, I think offering >> offering a little bit of gratitude >> to that part of you. Thank you for being here. I see that you're trying hard. I don't need you right now, but I appreciate that you're here anyway. >> And come in. And that to me completely non theological, but at least practically it's it's worked a bit. >> Yeah. So, like acknowledgement essentially acknowledging and instead of avoiding and >> bring Thank you for being here. Bring it in. >> Yeah. Gratitude I always say like affects the attitude and it's true, right? I think in Christianity it's the same. Um, a lot of people say they're Christian but then like I when I look at them they're not grateful for a lot of things and it's like unfortunate. Um, and I can speak on that space cuz I'm in that space. It's like yeah I I I'm grateful when I'm blessed. You know they kind of transactionalize these things, right? Well, I prayed to God and I pushed F3 and then vending machine you know underneath the blessing should come. So I think it's important to definitely religious religion aside, Christianity aside to be like thankful and I think the way that helps me uh be thankful similar to what you're saying is to think about the things as like objectively. Okay, there's a reason why this is here and it's easier for us being Christian I think only because we can go God could snap his fingers and remove these things. Why is he allowing this to stay here? If he's almighty sense of purpose. >> Yes. It's like he's almighty. He's all powerful. What is the purpose behind this? Right? What is his will? And then you kind of feel the piece of like, huh, there's a lesson. The way what I say is there's either a lesson or a blessing. He's either going to teach us something, which all is a blessing at the end of the day cuz you're going to gain those things. Um, and and yeah, it just helps in so many ways. You know, it's difficult. I guess where I where I see it is when someone doesn't believe then it's harder to articulate that aspect of it because >> because you're the only person who's got their hand on the rudder. >> Exactly. >> You're the only one that's steering. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Why was it so scary going back into prisons to >> I think it was the pride. Uh just how they would see me and especially cuz that first prison was like my alma moater. It was the one I was at. Um yeah. So, going back to the spot that I was at where everyone knows, >> how long was >> uh the stretch was only I was out 3 years, two years, two and a half years. >> So, still tons of people in there that would have known you. Most of them. >> Most of them. That's how it was. It's like a homecoming, a welcoming party, right? >> What was that line? Driving back there, riding. >> Yeah. I straight up had a panic attack. So I remember um you know my pastor's like, "Hey Johnny, you went through this crazy stuff in life." He showed me Revelation 12:11. He said, you know, uh we overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony. Meaning you can help people overcome with Jesus and or your testimony. And I'm like, dang, I got to talk about my story. Like, oh my gosh, like how detailed do I have to be? Like some of this stuff is cold cases and you know, oh, you know, like what am I doing here, right? Am I going to end up back in prison? And so I try to because up until then he's led me just changed my life completely, you know, transformed me a lot. And so um yeah, I remember he goes, "We got a contract with this prison." And it was the prison that I was at. And I was like, [sighs and gasps] "Oh my gosh, like I'll go to any other prison except for that one." But at that time, this was like, you know, uh just very like the prisons were not allowing volunteers to really come in. And it was very difficult, right? But we we got it. And it just so happened to be that prison and only that prison. So I I you know, I say okay to pastor, but as the days this is a week before I get to the day of and full-on panic attack. [snorts] Oh, the homies are in there. One of my homies is still like my cellmate still in there. Like they they've seen me crack off riots and now I'm in here like Jesus can help you too. It's like it feels fraudulent. Mhm. >> And I was just like, nah. And then I started getting mad. Like I realized when I get scared, I get angry, right? When I get sad, I get angry. It always, it's just this thing of like anger at the end of it. So I just remember like blowing up pastor like, and then he wasn't picking up. And I'm like, "Okay, me being a man of my word is very big to me." I told him, "Yes, I'm I'm panicking. All right, let me try this prayer thing. You know, I'll pray." And I'm driving to the prisons and I'm with my friend. He's he's a minister at this time. He's a pastor now, but it was a minister. And he's like, "Johnny, it's okay." You know, again, he's never lived that life, never, you know, and he's I'm like, "Don't say nothing, bro. Like, you don't understand." I'm like popping off on him. [snorts] Um, we get there and I see the cos I and I'm like I turn >> they know that it was you that was, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But cuz you have to, you know, you have to submit your information before that. And um I see them and then I'm just like, "Bro, we don't even make it to the gate, bro." I I'm like, "Turn around." And then he's just like, "What? Are you serious? We drove like almost 2 hours, man. Turn the f around." Like cussing. And he's like, "Oh." And he calls he's blowing up pastor. And then he calls pastor's wife. And pastor's wife is with pastor. Gives him the phone. And he's like, "Pastor, you know, Johnny's not listening." And he's just pissed. And I'm like, "I don't give a f, you know." And I pick up the phone and he's like, "Can I talk to Johnny?" and picks up the phone and he goes, "Johnny, what's going on?" I said, "Pastor, uh, I don't want to do this. If I have to leave religion and I I I will denounce Christianity. If you're making me do this, this is too much of a cross for me to bear. It's too much." And pastor goes, he just laughs. And I'm like, "What the hell?" And he goes, "You know what's funny?" And I'm and I enraged at this point in fur. What's funny? Like, what are you talking about? you're not the one going in, you know, you don't have this compounded trauma. And he goes, "Think back to when you did drugs. Think back to when you robbed people. Did you ever have a thought of like, I shouldn't be doing this. I should never do this. What the hell is wrong with me?" And I thought about it and I was like, "No." He's like, "Would you get this angry if like you, you know, would do drugs?" You probably very happy, right? Yeah. He goes, "Don't you think it's kind of funny that now that you're trying to do the work of God, you're trying to go there and actually potentially help people, all of a sudden you're getting attacked this way." And I think through that, he taught me the lesson of spiritual warfare. He's like, when you're trying to do good, there's always evil in there, right? It says it in Romans 7. He said verse 18, 19. And he's like, "So you, Johnny, like I think the enemy is threatened by what you're going to do. I think you know if you just walk and take a step, I think it'll you you'll again, just like with your father when you're having a panic attack with him and you were stressed out and you weren't sure, I think you know you can experience that, right? And this is a good chance and a good opportunity for you to walk by faith cuz it doesn't make sense." Yeah. Why would I be so insensitive? that's what your thoughts are telling you. But I want you to learn how to experience God, how to grow with God, and how to like walk forward and break this, you know? And it may again, it made sense. And I'm like, but it it didn't make it easier, right? And I being honest, I'm like, I yeah, I'm not going to do that. But him saying that, it took me another week of processing it, of going, he's wrong, but he's right. But it was like this internal struggle, right? >> So you didn't go in I didn't. I didn't. And so, yeah. And >> I'm was waiting for him to like almost waiting for him to pop off on me so I can utilize that as an excuse to leave >> cuz I was a runner too in that way where I'm like, I'm not going to face this. I'm out. This Christian life stuff is too hard for me, you know. >> Um, [snorts] fast forward. >> It's fascinating saying that as someone that was inside for 13 years. >> Yeah. >> Christianity is too hard. Prison for a decade and a half. Fine. >> Exactly. Crazy. But um he you know after processing what he said I was truly able to see like man he's right like as much as I'm being mad and frustrated and being immature like he is right. So I went back and I did talk to him again and he's like Johnny you don't have to go. I just want you to understand like I just I'm only challenging you up cuz I'm calling you up. Right. And it's kind of like again like working out, you know, you you can't just be lifting five pounds. Like you got to grow, bro. And he's like, and I it's because I love you. I care about you. And so I'm like, okay, you know, I'll try again. Same thing happened. Driving over there, panic attack. >> But this time, I just remember his voice like just listening to what he was saying and repeating it in my head like the enemy wants to do something. And you know, you don't see it, but when was he ever wrong? Like, you listen to this dude and things changed. Your life has changed. You haven't been back to prison. And that's what also flipped my mindset was like, dude, I'm 2 years and a half out of prison. Like, the homie didn't even make it 6 months, the Muslim guy. >> Whoa. And then it started to just register to me. And I'm like, huh, okay. And it gave me a little bit of that boost of confidence, I guess, that I needed. [snorts] And then I get in there and you get there and I see the we're walking towards the yard and it's my homie who's doing life without parole. What's up? He says my name, which is my aka. He doesn't call me Johnny. He says my, you know, street name. What's up, bro? And I'm like, oh my god. And I'm like immediately like embarrassed as hell, you know? And then the guy next to me, he's like again not living that lifestyle. He's like, why did he call you like ill, like like mentally ill, right? And he's like, "Why did he call you that?" I was like, "Long story, you know, that's what they call me." And he's like, he didn't understand it. So, we're just, it was just weird, right? I'm walking through, I meet another dude, he's like, "What's up, homie? Hey, you made it out. Like, what are you doing?" And he seen the the visitor badge and he's like, "You doing like where? Let me sign up." And he was being It was just like this little bit of like being cool. >> And I'm like, "Okay, but I'm making excuses still. Those are the homies. They're going to support me." Whatever. I get in here and it's random people in that class. I don't know any of these people. They're just random, you know, level two, level four, level three people. And you know, when they walk in, they just I like stick out like a sore thumb cuz this dude's like square, no tattoos, spotless, you know, Korean guy, broken English, you know, and then there's me just like blasted like this and they're just like come up to me and I'm like, "Hey guys, how you doing?" and you know um and I'm trying to speak proper and then um I'm like can I share my testimony with you guys and they're like yeah for sure um and I grew up here and I just tell the whole story like I told you more in in detail of course and [snorts] they just kind of get blown away like hey that emptiness that I felt you know um at the end of it they come up to me and they're like shaking my hand not only are they shaking my hand they're telling they're they're being vulnerable yo bro I felt that emptiness last night when you said one thought turns into 10. Like I was literally doing that, bro. I was about to kill myself. And I don't know, maybe it's God. Like I does God God really work for you? Like they're like asking me these things. And so, you know, um we end up leaving. That's there's uh 75 people in that class. We end up leaving. Um I remember going to the the car and I just break down. I think that's the first time I started really balling like aside from my dad where I'm like oh my gosh again pastors right like how is it that like I would have never experienced that >> it would have never lit up like a fire in me. It wouldn't. It was almost like I found a purpose in some way, right? Up until that point, it was like, "Yeah, I'm broken and God's great, but like what where do we go from here, you know?" And it was like, "Wo, I guess this is prison ministry." Like I it makes sense. I went through all of this. God's not going to not use it. He's going to utilize it. And um from then on, I just continue to go to the prisons. And then I would see people change. We would have Muslims. We would have Buddhists in our class. We'd have atheists, agnostic, whoever. they would come and then they would be changed and and even if they didn't agree someone would be like okay we don't know about all this God stuff but that emptiness that you're talking about I felt that anxiety that depression I felt how do you get over it over that okay I'll try to distrust my thoughts maybe not follow myself so much and let's see how that works and they changed it was beautiful bro >> what do you think 12-year-old Johnny would think if he could see you now >> oh my gosh bro that's a great question Um, [gasps] I think I wouldn't if the 12-year-old me wouldn't obviously believe and would probably just be like, "Whoa, you're famous." [laughter] Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's it. Like, whoa, you're famous, dude. Awesome. Nice YouTube channel. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dope YouTube. Can I get on? You know, like, >> um, but truthfully too also um I I don't think I I I would understand. I think at that time it wasn't that I was unreachable, but I just think that my mind was so set on like looking up to somebody. Um yeah, if I had someone like me who understood at that moment, I wouldn't end up the way I was for sure. >> Mhm. >> But um if I I didn't even know that like I didn't know that people like this existed. I was just very like gang members, they're the they're the top dogs. You have to be that. And so I I think I probably would have thought it was lame like in a way like he's cool, he's famous, but as soon as you say the Christian stuff, I'm cool, bro. Like it's just I think that's if I'm being honest, >> you're not aggressive enough, you're not hard enough. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then um you know, I I think I had to go through all of that to recognize that. You know, I've seen so many people that are like me, super peaceful and and people come up to me, bro, like you really were you locked up? Really? You did that? like you don't even have that those tendencies. But I don't think they understand like the chaos I've been through. That's why. And I think at a point you do get to this point where you just want like serenity and you just want like happiness and peace. So you do end up just being chill. You can't enjoy any of it if you don't have peace too. There is no >> and I'm fortunate enough to have been around, you know, some of the richest, most well-known, high status people on the planet. >> It there is no amount of socioeconomic or follow account escape velocity >> that can outstrip an un peaceful life. Like if you go to bed on a nighttime and you don't have peace, and that's not to say that you are supposed to have peace for the entirety of your life. Like shit's going to happen. It's very good if you can [ __ ] grip the bar, rip it off the floor, fix the problem, all that stuff. >> But there is no out accelerating an unpieful life, especially a chronic unpaceful life. So like what do you >> what is all of this for? What is all of this for if you achieve everything that you want and you can't >> lay your head on a pillow and not be worrying about >> like what is that the price that you're paying is not worth what you're getting in return. >> So true. So true. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the one thing that changed my life was to see my mom, right? I think that's what kind of opened the door to me even wanting to talk with my pastor is she was still with my dad who was drunk, beating her, not as much. It kind of the beatings kind of got better, but still here and there. And then having two kids, not just me, but my brother doing time, too. M and then me at this time making 40 50k not saved you know selling drugs having 45 on my waistband like for her to still be like I'm happy I like I couldn't understand it like I just looked at my mom and I was like I know and I've seen her have the thousand yard stare and be the broken person and have that emptiness to be like no God is good and she would say crazy things bro she'd be like your father is the world's best husband. And I was like, "Oh, Johnny, you're going to be a gospel preacher one day and the world's best gospel preacher." She like kept using this world's best stuff, right? >> And I'm like, "And mom, you're schizophrenic, you know, like [laughter] straight up." >> And we're taking you off to a facility. >> Yeah. Literally, right? You need the stray jacket. But it's like I didn't understand it. But what I can't deny was that when she said it, the conviction she had, the confidence, and the peace. And I'm like, dang. And then it kind of turned out that way. My dad is so much better. It's so weird, bro. Asians, they're just not like affectionate. >> So like there's times where I'll go visit them and just pop up like surprise them and I'll see my dad and my mom cuddling on the couch like watching TV and I'm like, "Ew." Like it's like [laughter] what the heck? >> I think that's an Asian thing. I think that's in every everyone's got like a visceral like [ __ ] put it away. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They'll hold hands and then when my dad sees me like throws her hand on the side and I'm just like, "Pops, I caught you slipping." Pop. >> Promise I'm not gay. I promise I'm not. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's just it's weird to >> to see that dynamic. And it's all it all stemmed from my mom's faith and her peace and her belief system, which my brother's saved now. It's it's kind of wild. >> So, your mom is kind of the savior at the top of the the avalanche. >> 100%. It was her solo dooo Asian, you know, in a traditionally Buddhist household to be like, "Yeah, I'm gonna introduce some peace and some Jesus." And I'm like, "You're crazy to like now we're all crazy, I guess." You know, it's like, but it's just it was just it's beautiful. You know, what peace can do. To your point, how you like what I say is like the way you carry yourself is like a sermon, right? Like I could preach all day a bomb sermon and then be like doing drugs at night. It's just the actions don't match, right? And so I guess I just want to encourage people to understand that like the way you carry yourself is very important. Um, you can talk about peace all day and talk about grinding and, you know, productivity and things like that, but if if a person I guess what I'm always looking for is like, can I represent and reflect Jesus and peace and love? Um because what what's the point to your point? What's the point of life if you can't really have people inspire people, help people and all that? Like what? I'm a I'm a Christian. This is my story. It's great. Like no, I want to be able to inspire and help others, too. >> Yeah. >> Tony, [snorts] you're the best, dude. >> Thank you, bro. >> Absolutely rule. >> Appreciate you, bro. >> You're really fantastic. Where should people go? I know you've got so much stuff going on. Where should people go to check out more of your stuff? >> Um, so we have an app on the app store. It's called Corahar Daily. It's my 10 years of teachings, my secret notes, everything. Um, placed into the app. It's available on any app store, Play Store. It's free. Um, and yeah, it it had it starts with the devotional. Um, and then you guys can find me on all social media platforms, Johnny Chang Live, Tik Tok, Instagram, YouTube, and I stream live where I do these Q&A. A lot of people come up, why does God allow babies to die? And these hard questions, I like answering them. So, you guys can find me there, too. >> Appreciate you, man. Until next time. >> Thank you. Good. Goodbye everyone. >> All righty, >> dude. [ __ ] >> hat. >> Congratulations. You made it to the end of a podcast episode without dying. Now, here's another one. Go on, watch it.