Escape The 'Friend Zone' With Women - How To Master Attraction & Charisma | Vanessa Van Edwards

Right now, I think my deepest [music] fear is actually I have this like opportunity FOMO. So, I constantly have this fear that I'm like missing opportunities. [music] I think that's one of the reasons I wrote this book and one of the reasons I'm obsessed with cues is cuz I am terrified that [music] I am missing things. I feel like I missed the memo on social interactions, right? Like that's my entire career is trying to write up that memo again. [music] And that really hurt me. It really slowed me down for so many years. It destroyed my confidence. It made me have bad relationships. [music] Made me ignore cues. I think for a long time I had really toxic people in my life and I didn't spot the cues. [music] And so, I think I'm terrified of underestimating others. I'm terrified of missing things that I shouldn't have missed or not listening to my gut. Vanessa Van Edwards, welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk about your book, which feels like this sort of natural progression from Oh. Captivate, which smashed. And now I want you to in as few words as possible Oh. tell me what is charisma. Charisma is the perfect blend of being likable and powerful. Woo! That was really Woo! Woo, homie. We knocked [laughter] that in in very few words. or something. All right, so likable and powerful. So, now break those two elements down for me. So, likability. so I think that what there's there's a mistake that happens with very smart people. This is the one that we see the most often is really smart intelligent people. They want to hit you with their smarts. They want to be impressive. And so, they come into interaction on a video call and they're like, "I want to blow you away." So, they mention accolades and numbers and fancy facts and rehearsed answers. And people will see them as impressive, capable, powerful, but cold, intimidating, hard to talk to. And so, and this is what the research found. Competence without warmth leaves people feeling suspicious. Suspicious? Why suspicious? Suspicious. This is from Dr. Susan Fiske. That is a direct quote. I memorized it because it took my breath away when I read it because I realized for so long as you know, I'm a recovering awkward person I would try to, you know, impress people and and make sure that they liked me. And so I would blow try to blow them away with smarts. And the problem is is that when you do that, it leaves people feeling suspicious. And that's because when we don't have likability, likability softens our power. Mhm. When we add the warmth plus competence, so likable, friendly, compassionate, trustworthy, plus capable, powerful, impressive, that's the sweet spot. In the study what they did is they had participants look at short clips of politicians. They didn't know these politicians. They just had them watch these clips of politicians. And they asked them two different questions. Who is warm, likable, and trustworthy? And who is dominant, powerful, and capable? The politicians who had only one of those were not rated as charismatic. They were not as successful. They weren't as successful in real life or just in the study? In the study they were ranked very low on the charisma scale. So they could be seen as trustworthy, but if they weren't also powerful, they were not seen as compelling. Mhm. They were not seen as convincing. They weren't seen as memorable. So the biggest challenge I think we have to be charismatic is to show up as our warmest most competent self. It but it has to be that balance. Of course, and that's why it's amazing. But it's like talk about feeling like you're being pulled in two opposite directions. And I find I find it for I don't want to use the wrong word here. I Yeah. I find it easy to be warm. Yeah. And I find it easy to be intense. I find it difficult to be warm and intense. Although you didn't use the word intense, you used powerful, but I guess I don't like the word Monica for myself. But yes, so warm and intense I find extraordinarily difficult. Yes. Warm or intense, that's a lot easier. to make you feel better. Okay. Actually, the research finds they can be chronological. Okay. And this is extremely helpful. Like this is like next level. Yes, warmth and competence. Warmth. Okay. Okay. Why? As humans, when we first meet another human, the very first question we ask about them is, can I trust you? Right? So, like from across the room, on a video call, in an email. We are looking, can I trust you? Are you on my side? Are you a threat? Can I Can I make sure that I'm not going to be at harm? Not just physical harm, but even like emotional harm. Are you on my side? The next question we answer, and it is the next question, is can I rely on you? So, let's take an email, for example, because that's a the easy we can control all the elements. In a really good email, we do this sometimes naturally, but not always, the subject and the opener should be warm. Maybe the opening line is also warm, and the content, the body of the email, is competent, competent, competent, and the sign off is your choice. So, for example, when we look at uh words, I love power of word choice. What research finds is when we read words like collaborate, we are more likely to be collaborative. When we read words like power, we are more likely to be powerful. Here's a specific study. It's a little complicated. Can I go Can I go deep? Yeah, yeah, please. The study like blew my mind. So, here's what they did. They had participants come into the lab, and they gave them like um a quiz, like a math test they had to solve. One set of participants got a set of directions that was very simple. It said, "Please take this test. Take your time. Answer all the questions correctly." The second group got a set of the same set of directions, but they sprinkled in a couple of high achievement words, or achievement oriented words. So, achievement oriented words are like win, succeed, master, achieve. We love those words. They like give us the tinglies, okay? They just sprinkled them in. They wanted to know if just adding in a couple of achievement oriented words would change participants' behavior. Just those achievement oriented words made them get more answers right. So, it actually changed their performance. In other words, reading the word win makes you think more like a winner. It changes your physiology to be more like a winner. Second, this is where I think it gets more interesting. It doubled doubled their desire to work on the task. So, it made them work on the quiz longer and it made them enjoy working on the quiz. And lastly, it actually changed their physiology. So, when we read What were they measuring? So, they were how many questions they got right. But when you say it changed their physiology, how do we know? Yes, they are measuring the amount of testosterone or dopamine or oxytocin. their blood levels? I believe it was either blood or saliva. Wow. To see if their physiology would change. So, when we read words like this, it actually changes how we think and how we feel. So, I share this because I think we send emails or we have a LinkedIn profile and we throw in them Uh hey everyone. Uh today we have to get a lot of things done. It's going to be a really busy week. Uh let's make sure that we overcome all those challenges. When you write words like busy, people are literally primed to be busier. When you write words like challenge, they're more likely to be challenged. So, going back to warmth and competence, it's a challenge for everyone. If you open up your last five sent emails to important people, only the important ones, and you count the number of warm words you're using and the number of competent words you're using, you will see exactly how you're coming across to others. But the best thing you can do is open with warmth, hidden with competence, and end with purpose. The number of times that I've written an email where I'm like, "Okay, let's do this." We're literally the first word is let's do this [laughter] or text even worse. And then I'm about to hit send and I'm like, "Let me just quick go back to this." And then I'm like, "Oh my god. Hi. Good morning." You know, like to add something. Although, after reading the book, I realize I'm adding sort of the lamest, most boring, easy to tune out words humanly possible, but Are you usually adding warmth or competence? Oh, I don't think of it I'm always trying to add warmth. I never think about the competence. I'm always just uh goal-oriented. So, the the the thought that triggers in my head is always there is something very specific and concrete I'm trying to accomplish. And I go right to it. Yes. And I find so every every time I read your books or we get to sit down together, whether on camera or off camera, I become hyper aware in in a good way because I think that too often I'm not thinking through like I'm in my head, I know what I'm trying to do, but I forget that you really do have to do the emotional management, the relationship management, especially when you have employees. It's You have to every time you touch somebody, it's like accumulating into their perception of who you are. And so, if all I'm ever doing is goal-oriented and I'm not taking the time to connect with them as a human, it gets weird. So, anyway, I don't think about warmth or competence Yes. in the first pass because I'm I'm just in the task. Yes. Then I go back and I do a warmth pass. Yes. Usually. I'm sure I forget. Um but it is it's very interesting how your default mode doesn't take any of that into consideration. Right. And I think that that's why we're so burnt out. What do you mean by that? I think the reason why we're all like, "Oh, I'm in this malaise." Like the days are so long, why we're so burnt out is because our way that we communicate has changed. And we're trying to get things done. We've become a very task Is this specific to COVID? No. I think that this is this was already brewing. the way that we work has changed since we work has changed. I think since uh video calls, emails, and digital communication has been easy. And then it got exacerbated by COVID. Because what's happening is our way of communication is changing, so we're putting more out, right? Our output for communication I I I I don't know, quadruple 10x? Think about the days where we didn't have email phone or text, just phone. We maybe had an in-person conversation with a colleague, an in-person conversation with our partner, we maybe picked up the phone and called someone. What is that? The maximum you could have 20 or 30 interactions in a day at the max. But that's only if you're isolated because so recently we started having people, if they wanted to, come back to the house you have to test every day blah blah blah. Yes. And yesterday was the first day where like there were quite a few people here and we were all sitting around the table and I was like, "Wow, this is so the amount of communication I would have said is way higher, but it was all informal." Mhm. Yes. was like it wasn't a meeting, it wasn't like a like if I sent a text it has a really specific agenda I'm trying to get to this. Right. It was, you know, goofing around, it was being more playful, it was quick like things about, "Hey, have you talked to this person?" That kind of thing. And I was like, "Woah." Woah. Cuz I've I've said to people, "Hey, you know, I I'm a little worried about working from home because I love it as a a sort of I will say I'm introverted I'm I'm an ambivert to your point and you can talk about you go into that in the book, but but I'm also almost isolationist when I'm in introvert mode. Yes. Where it's like, "I don't want to see or talk to anybody." I put over the ear headphones, I don't want people interrupting me or talking to me. Yes. And but I began to like, uh I'm a little worried on the creative side, that's where I've always focused, on the creative side that we're losing energy. And it's hard to get people excited about something when it's like, you know, this asynchronous communication. And yesterday when people were in the room, I was like, "Oh my god." Like [laughter] just the the human connection and the fun. Yes, and the flood of chemicals, right? So I think that when we're in person and there was what, maybe five or 10 people, those are five or 10 connections that you're having all day or during a meeting. In a digital world or we're having online connection we could have hundreds. Right? Like every text we send it is it's own unique communication and that burns us out because it's giving us all these same information without the chemicals. Right? So in person I'm so with you. The timing of this conversation is so on point for what's going on in my life. We have to manage that, right? Like I want you to be aware that okay, if people come over I'm getting way more chemicals. I'm getting the oxytocin of the handshake. I'm getting oxytocin from the eye contact. I'm getting dopamine cuz we're smiling and laughing together. And I'm getting the information I've been getting for the last, you know, couple months. In a text or an email or even a video call, it shrinks. We're getting way less of the good chemicals, way less of the dopamine and oxytocin but the same amount of information. I think that is why we're so burnt out. So I think the more that we can take control of our cues. So, you know, I I've always struggled with confidence. I've always tried to grasp that, you know, that amazing spirit. I think the only way to do it is control for me. That I think that con- controlling the environment? Controlling my cues. Okay. So I think that the only way that I feel confident is if I know okay, I have this important email I have to send to a team member and here's the information I have to get across. I do the same thing as you. I think most people do. I get the information out first typically, right? Like here's what has to get done and then I add in the warmth typically in the first 10 words. This is a really easy way to do it for yourself. This is only when it's important. Doesn't have to be every email. I think okay, what is the person What do I want this person to feel? If I were with them in person, what would I want to gift them? Would I want to gift them excitement? Like get excited about gift. I think it's a gift. I think that we can prevent burnout by gifting the right chemicals. Right? Like it takes effort like a gift. So if I'm like okay, I want this person to be excited about this project. I'm going to use words that cue for excitement and this is literally what the research shows that when we say things like what are you excited about or I can't wait for this project. Or I'm looking forward to this. Those are excitement words. Or do I want to gift strategy? Do I want to gift efficiency? Do I know that we are pushed for time and I want to gift streamline, collaborate, brainstorm, credible? The more I use those words, the more I am literally gifting that testosterone, that chemical. So, I think that that's how we can next level. It's like next level. We can gift those chemicals to people in our in-person interactions, but also in our emails and in our videos. I find really interesting about that is that you're queuing not only to other people, but to yourself. Even selecting the word gift, which is an interesting reframe for me as I think about that, um think about the different interactions and what I want to communicate, but even choosing that word feels very different than communicate or um even give. Yeah. That's Yeah, that's really powerful. Getting the framing device right so that whatever your sort of emotional goals are. And you just queued me that you want to talk. This is so interesting and you go into detail about this like the cues that people will do. Um [laughter] walk me through what just happened in the last 9 seconds. Okay, so I really wanted to reframe you cuz you were wanting to get it done, which was good. And we were talking about like, how do we make it better? How do we get it done? And the reframe I wanted to give was, this is like a gift. And how did you interrupt me though without saying a word? I So, first I was using the word gift, which I think already was like, like your brain was like, oh, that's something different. And then also I leaned into you, right? And I widened my eyebrows a little bit just to show like we're open. Like we're getting into this. So, like those were two high warmth cues. So, we think about nonverbal, I was trying to cue you for warmth, right? So, I leaned a little bit more. And by the way, this changes our brain. So, the study that I share in the book, which is just try anyone, just try leaning in a little bit. It will actually activate a different area of your brain. So, when I lean in a little bit, you lean in a little bit more like your head actually lean a bit which activates your motivation. And then even just taking a breath and slightly opening your mouth, I was like, "Up, I know it it it is so I knew exactly that you had something to say." And I think we all take it for granted how you can use that. In the book you walk people through, "Hey, if there's somebody that's talking too much and you need to interrupt them, but you don't want to like okay, okay. So this is like a superpower. So if I have anyone who's introvert, um anyone who's awkward, anyone who lacks uh social assertiveness. I think social assertiveness is actually like a hidden trait that everyone should learn because to be socially assertive it means you're putting your needs forward, but you're being polite about it, right? So you're not you're not people pleasing, you're not bedding over. Okay, so this is if you have an interrupter. So you have someone who constantly interrupts you. You have a couple techniques. First is the open mouth which I just did to you. Um so the open mouth that I call the fish. So if you want to say something you Right? And the bigger the the open the more they'll notice. This works on video calls, this works in person. So if someone's talking and you you're like, "Oh, she needs to say something." You'll bookmark it. You'll literally be like, "Oh wait, she has to say something." So try opening the mouth. The second one is we are very cued that a hand raise or even a finger raise means "One moment. Can I say something?" And so if you have someone who's talking or who interrupted you, you can literally that a little bookmark or a little like it's like a pupil, right? Like you're raising your hand. And the next level is you actually reach out and touch them. And that's like my least favorite, but if you really have someone Because if in this world, if we're 6 ft apart, right? It's really hard to cross that space boundary. And also some people aren't comfortable with touch. So I reserve that one if you're only like, "I really need to get their attention." Touch is like the nuclear weapon or maybe plutonium is the right word. It's the plutonium of communication. It can be used to create nuclear power or an atomic bomb. I I don't think we talked about this in the last time that we were together, but I went out on um a business evening with a woman who touched so much that I was almost laughing to myself. [laughter] And no, I know. And it it it actually wasn't awkward. And what made it so interesting was how hyper-aware of it I was and that it still worked. And I was like, how is this possible? Like it was working. Yeah, like forearm, hand, oh my god, laughing, shoulder. I was like, what is happening right now? I felt like I was at a magic show. So this is a this is a thing that magicians do. They acclimate you to being touched, so when they pick your pocket, you've just been so used to them touching you, you don't even notice. Wait, can I ask you, where did she touch you? Uh arm, arm, shoulder. Okay, so yeah, so this is for if you want to be a toucher, if you want to like use this plutonium, I like that word. Um keep in mind that um the further up the arm you go, the more intimate the touch. So like if you want to start with a touch, like a hand touch is the least intimate, the most safe, right? So if someone's like talking like this, you could reach out and touch their hand, that's the most safe. like germophobic now. If somebody If you touch my arm, I'm fine. If you touch my hand, it's like, yo. Those are fighting words. I wonder if that's changed it. Like now because our hands carry germs. certainly be worried about it. [gasps] Okay, so further down and back is usually okay, like but the more the lower we go, the more intimate the touch becomes. I was just curious if it was all here. It was and it broke down like every barrier that I had. It was so interesting because I would I am so weird about that. I would never reach out and touch somebody that I did not know extraordinarily well. noted. Noted. like it was really really interesting. It so well. I was like, I know this is a thing. I can't bring myself to do it. Yeah. And yet, as somebody's doing it to me, and I I it was so frequent. She must have touched me you're going to think I'm kidding, 42 times in the night. I mean, it was hilarious and effective. Okay, so let's talk about touch. So Uh, the reason why touch works is because it produces oxytocin. We also can self-produce oxytocin. So, that's why like if you rub your hands, whenever I have um students who are really nervous, I say self-touch. Mhm. And the reason [clears throat] for this is because you can literally and girls. Yeah. I knew I had to. Forgive me. I I was like, do I do it or do I let him do it? I was like, softball. Just give me a Okay, so yeah. I'm practicing being warm, you see. I love it. I love it. Self-touch, PG, right? So, you can like rub your arms. Like this will literally produce oxytocin. Um Justin Bieber does uh havening. Have you heard of havening? Because of you, yes. Okay, so uh havening is when we like try to stimulate our senses. You'll notice he'll often like rub his head. I'm not going to do it cuz my hair looks cute today. Anyway, so I'm not going to do it today, but we rub our head or you can rub your arms to literally trigger that oxytocin. I saw in you were talking about Justin Bieber and you did a self-hug. I did. And you started doing it on camera and you actually got lost. I'm not going to do it right now because I'm worried it's going to lose me. So interesting. I'm going to do it. Okay, I'm doing it, too. Just do it. This feels better. and then deep breath. [gasps] [sighs] Yeah, that It does feel nice. I don't I don't know if I'm getting it from the touch or I really when I close my eyes and breathe deeply, I actually did get full body chills, yeah. But like, what? Yeah. What? That is Did that just happen? Like, don't you feel like we're good? I don't know if it for me if it was the hug or the deep breath. Closing my eyes and deep breathing. That alters my neurochemistry so fast. Yeah. And so getting into self-soothing for me anyway is I touch my face. So, the little tickles that that gives me it just feels awesome. Yes. But meditative breathing with my eyes closed and I remember being so excited to gift Lisa the power of meditation and being like, "Oh my god, sit comfortably, close your eyes, over your headphones, sound of nature, and just breathe through your diaphragm." And the first breath I ever took like that was life-changing. Because it it changed my neurochemistry so rapidly. And this was like this is Like I don't feel anything. And I was like what? [laughter] I was utterly shocked. Okay, so let's talk about self-soothing for a second because this is a this is like a powerful kind of back pocket tool. If you've ever been in a meeting and you blanked out you want to give yourself a distancing behavior or gift yourself a distancing behavior. The problem is is when you're in it, right? So you're in a presentation, you're on stage, you're on a video call, you're in a date and you blank out, you're in it. Usually you're like leaned in, you're lean forward, you want to do it. What people make the mistake of doing is they go further in. They go um um have you ever seen people like on stage I've been that person, yes. Yeah, they're like they're literally like where is it? And they're trying to get it. That is actually the worst thing you can do. You're actually overloading your prefrontal cortex by trying to get more. What I want you to actually do is back up. So I want you to give yourself physical and emotional distance. So if you're in that, just take a step back, either sit back or take a step back. Try to angle your head back and if you can, even if it's subtle, just that changes the nature of your brain. When you take a step back, research has found that when you literally take a step back, you are able to get more perspective. So if you ever blank out, don't lean in, lean back. Take a step back, take a breath back, grab your water, right? Right, I'm back with you. Here's what I was saying. That's how I want you to do it. It's super smooth and it actually helps that reset. That's what we're actually doing for ourselves. And if you're alone, of course, you can do the self touch. Your supersternal notch, it's a little notch right here between your two collarbones. Between? Between the two collarbones. I I don't find myself touching there, but I am obsessed with where like Here. Yeah, I don't know why. And as I was reading in the book, I'm like is this a blocking behavior? Am I doing something subconsciously? This is a absolutely a self-soothing behavior. Like the reason why that feels so good. And so when we touch even anywhere in this area, including like our neck, it reminds us of like calm down. Calm down. Interesting. So like a very subtle thing you can do is so weird. weird. That we have like all these weird self-touching like I don't know why we picked all the weird ones, but like these are the weird ones. with anything, I will fiddle with my neck and I will touch whatever this part of the clavicle is. Cuz it feels so good. Yeah. Cuz you know that instinctively that's giving you a nice physiological response of staying calm. Anywhere in here is that. Now, touching your face is something important I just want to talk about is research finds that when we self-touch, especially our face and our stomach Mhm. And these I don't know how we're talking about all the weird ones. People people perceive that as closer to deception or nervousness. Deception? Nervousness I get, but why deception? I think it's because palpate my adipose tissue around my stomach. So basically another way I pinch my fat. So I do it all the time to see like how far under the skin is my muscle tone. You have to, otherwise you can get out of control. That cuz I don't weigh myself. So that's my way of knowing like Okay. am I in check where I'm at? And so but I never thought of it as a soothing behavior, which may be another reason why subconsciously I'm doing but when I say I do it, I do it 60 times a day. You talked about this before. I did not notice that. I well, I'm never going to do it on camera and if I'm Yeah, if you hung around me long enough, you would see me do it a lot. Well, now I know why though. Okay, so let's talk about it. So I think the reason why this internally our brain is like deception is because liars want to hold things back and liars are typically very nervous. the book by the way you do some awesome breakdowns of like here's this famous person, Lance Armstrong, Bill Clinton, A-Rod and like you give the moments and like it's really interesting to watch back that stuff. And cool. watch back you're like, "Ah, I didn't see that cue." I like cues hiding in plain sight. That's like my favorite. So liars, yes, like like Lance Armstrong for example, when he was on Larry King Live saying he wasn't doping, spoiler alert, he doped, right? He Mhm. Lip pursed. He pressed his lips together because he wanted to like withhold the lie. So liars often want to withhold cuz they know lying gets them into trouble. They also are very nervous and they're trying to self-soothe. So they typically touch their face and there are three areas of the face that they touch. Eyes, nose, and mouth. Research has found this. So It's to maximize getting sick. [laughter] It's wonderful. True. And liars will get sick more often, right? Well, I don't know about that. That's not research claims. That's not research fact. But why? So um like for example, they found there's like a Pinocchio's nose effect that when we lie our nose the tissue in our nose gets a little bit itchy. They found that when we are lying we want to like block out the lie. So we eye block. So when people when liars when liars are lying they'll be like, "Yeah, um you know, it's it's just been really hard and um and they'll fuss at their eyes because they also have um they want to block it out with a high blink rate. So Britney Spears in some of her early interviews when she's asked really hard questions, all of a sudden she'll "I mean, I I just really want to I don't know I just want to talk about that, but the reason that I'm talking about it" and she has this like rapid [snorts] blink rate. And that is because we're trying to block it out. And the last one is mouth touch. Liars like when I asked my daughter, "Did you take the cookie?" She'll go, "Mhm, no." And she covers her mouth. going to teach her about the strategies and if so, what age? So I've already started teaching her facial expressions. So use them or what you're looking at? spot them. So like for example, she's 3 and 1/2. Wow. Talk about starting them young. Oh, and it it's so helpful to her cuz again, control, right? Like I didn't get confidence naturally, but the more that I've been in control of the cues I'm sending to others and also seeing the cues that are being sent to me, the more confident I feel. So, when we're on the playground and she'll say, "I want to play with her." or "Should I go ask them to play?" I'll say, "Well, look at their face. Do they look happy?" Or do they look sad? And if they look happy, I say, "Well, she looks happy. Why don't you go over and ask her?" And then I say, "Look at her face. If she says she's happy and she wants to play with you, she wants to play with you." Or does she look sad? So, we practice the facial expressions and she knows them. Like she knows and and we were watching a Spanish movie and she doesn't speak Spanish. One day, hopefully. And she could say, "Oh, why is She said, "Why is he sad, Mama?" Because he And even the cartoon character was showing classic sadness. So, sadness is an upside down U. So, we pull our mouth down and then we pinch the corners of our eyebrows and we droop our lids. Like that. Even the cartoon character was showing that face and she could see he was sad. So, I think as young as possible. I never would have thought to train a kid to do that, but I know one thing you talked about is when you like your entire team has to watch your how to spot a liar. I don't remember if that's the exact word, but basically how to determine if somebody's lying cues, which I think is interesting, but I would think with kids it'd be good to hold some of that back. And don't think I missed the cue that you want to say something. I do. I [laughter] So, listen, I always would have hard truth over ignorant bliss, right? I If she's ready for it, I'd rather teach it to her. I also think like it allows you to choose if you're going to respond. You don't always have to respond to a cue. So, for example, this is a cue This This study really changed the way I think about cues. It And it was I I talk about it in the book a little bit, but it really had a major impact in my life. Which is a study, very simply, where if you see a cue of social rejection. Okay? So, cues of social rejection rejected. Mhm. So, if you see or decode a cue of social rejection on someone else, which is why we're very aware of cues without realizing it. So, cues of social rejection are eye rolls, scoffs, even a social rejection tone of voice like, "Yeah, I don't really like that." Mhm. I like, we know that's a social rejection tone of voice. Okay. When we see a cue of social rejection, our own field of vision widens. We literally see more. Our pupils change when we spot in less than a second a cue of social rejection. This is really helpful to know because it means if you see a negative cue, your body knows you have to look out for more. You have to see and why do we take in more? We have to see is anyone else sending a cue of social rejection? Is everyone else okay? Do I have an escape route? What's my plan of action? So, if your body is already doing this, if my daughter at 3 and 1/2 already is doing that, why not give her a name for what that is? So, then she can decide I want to address that social cue of rejection or I'm good, I don't need their approval. Talk to me about addressing it. Okay, so let's I really like addressing cues. I like addressing them in the room. So, one cue, this is not a typical cue of social rejection, but I think it's an important one to know is a lower lid flex. If we're going to talk about the weird cues, let's just let's just go [laughter] right into the weird ones. So, lower lid flex. So, we're trying to see something from far away. So, if for example Blue steel. Blue steel, right. Yeah, give me blue steel. Exactly. Right. Cuz it's a hardened lower lid. If you're right now, try to see something across the room, try to see the detail on the wall, you'll you'll harden your lower lids to see it. Okay, this is a universal response. When we want to see more, we widen our eyes in fear or surprise. We're trying to see detail or scrutinize something, we harden our lower lid, it lowers the amount of light that can come into our eye so we can see more detail. This is not a typical cue of social rejection. However, if you're talking to someone and all of a sudden they lower lid flex you, I do it all the time. Right. It means that someone just went into deep listening mode. Correct. At least that's how I intended it. That is it's literally when you said intense way at the beginning of the interview, I thought, "That explains Tom's lower lid flex." Cuz that's what you do in your interviews. You'll nod, which is high warmth. Oh my god, I nod too much though. No, you don't nod too much. We probably cut some of it out. Oh, okay. Sometimes I do feel like a bobblehead, which you mentioned, "Don't be a bobblehead." Yeah. nodding is a warmth cue. You typically I don't even know if you realize you do this. You will balance out your nodding with a competence cue, which which is a lid flex. Mhm. So when you're Certainly don't do it on purpose, but Right, but that is your intensity. So like right, you're deeply listening to me. What is she saying? What was that? What was that study? And I can see you are deeply listening. And then you'll balance it out with a warmth cue. That is how very highly charismatic people, and I would put you in that bucket whether you would or not. I would put you in that bucket of highly charismatic people is you are naturally balancing out that warmth and competence. We find lower lid flexes super attractive. And I don't mean like physically attractive. I mean we want people who want to deeply listen to us. And so that's why when you look at really hot actors or models or Blue Steel, they're always smizing or lower lid flexing or flinty eyes, cuz it shows intensity. And we like people who are intensely into us. So the reason I bring this up as a social rejection cue is because it can show scrutiny. It can show that someone is reevaluating or judging what you're going to say. And so when you're talking to a group of people or one person and all of a sudden they're lower lid flexing and you're on the something positive, great. But if you're making a point or you're challenging something, addressing it would sound like, Does that make sense? All good? Any questions right there? When I'm teaching like call it out specifically, like yo Lower lid flex. Yeah, exactly. No. [laughter] That's the kind of thing I would do for sure. I mean, listen. If you read this as a team and you want to do it, and I have teams that do that, cool. But I like like the just like the soft like are we good? That makes sense? All good? Yeah. I like to say a verbal. It also can be a non-verbal. So um a non-verbal What do you do though if you see the and you talk in the book like you want a cluster. So let's say you're seeing a cluster of responses any one thing in isolation can be meaningless. But you see that cluster they're really giving you cues. You say we good? Any questions there? And they're like yeah we're good. But you know there's something going on. What do you do at that point? I usually will follow up with some kind of confirmation depending on how hard it is. So if all good? Yeah we're all good. I'm like okay. Mental note that there was something that was going on there. So I will typically this is like advanced level. But if something is really like I I know I saw that cluster. I know I saw a couple red flags in a row that I don't like and this matters. I will typically change the mode of communication. So if we were in person I will ask an email. Just confirming you were all good on {point} {point} {point}. If we were in email and I noticed some suspicious verbal things I will switch to in person. If we're on video I'll try to switch to phone because I find that if you give someone a minute and you try a different mode of communication usually you can get a little bit more information. So when it really matters to me I will ask in a different way in a different mode. It's interesting. What do you think about my technique which is I won't say that I do it every time because I do try to be deft. I try to read the room and you know what my relationship is with the person. But I am very likely to say you know something like you know are we all good? Yeah yeah we're fine. You made a facial expression. Help me understand because it definitely read like you're upset or whatever and I just want to make sure that you know whatever. Love it. So that works. You can also say you're saying all good but you don't look like it's all good. Mhm. And that's something you can also do with your partner, right? Like if they're like I'm fine. Yeah that would Lisa for sure. I want it to be fine. It doesn't sound fine. So, yes, I think that you can you can also verbally vary and that's like not an aggressive way of doing it like, are you sure you're good? You don't look good. And then they can explain, oh yeah, I know, I'm just nervous about something else. Or you know what, you're right, I do have some hesitations. Or no, no, I really am good. I like I I like that if you're brave enough to do it. That's the socially assertive way to do it. I like it. I like it. With your partner, do you have like a code word? So, like Lisa and I, if I can see on her face that there's something wrong. Yeah. And I use this very sparingly because I actually want Lisa to be able to take an exit ramp if she doesn't want to talk about it or whatever. But I'll if I really need to know, I'll be like, you promise you're okay? Yeah. Now, in our marriage, if somebody says, do you promise? That whatever is about to come out of your mouth had better be the truth, no matter like how brutal it is. Do you have anything like that? So, um I will [laughter] Yes, we have a physical one that we do where I Tell me more. So, like if I think he's like not good or not telling me something, I'll take his face in my hands like this and I'll be like, are you sure, babe? So, like it's like a deep it's like a touch it's like a very intimate touch. And I'll like, are you sure? And so, for me, he'll often like touch my shoulder touch my arm or or my lower back. Are you sure? That like anchor touch. guys discuss that? Like would he be surprised hearing you say this now? I think he would be a little bit No, no, I think he would be like, oh yeah, we do do that. But we haven't discussed it. Interesting. But like when it's like it's like are you it's like it it's like close the outside world around. Are we good? That or like are you are babe, are you sure? That's that's like a physical touch thing. He's also physical touch love language. Okay. So, I think that that's where it came from is we discussed that we were that he was physical touch. It's interesting. It Going back to warmth and high fives and stuff, you talk about in the book even like on a Zoom call saying like, hey, I'm sending you a high five and that even things like that can cue people into feeling something. Yes, uh so, this was a hypothesis I had right at the beginning of the pandemic, we're all going on video and I I I missed the the social tradition of a high five or a handshake and I wondered, do we need to replace it? Do we even need to and can we? And so I partnered with Dr. Paul Zak who runs immersion neuroscience. He's like the oxytocin guy. Whenever we talk about oxytocin, we're actually piggybacking on his original research. He's absolutely brilliant. He's like the he wrote the moral molecule. Have you ever taken exogenous oxytocin? Never. Yeah. Never, but I really want to. Have you done it? I have, but mixed with ketamine. Oh, I've never And I didn't like the ketamine. I'd like to try just the nasal spray, yeah. I got so hyped about it. I was like, "Babe, like we're going to do it together. It's going to be amazing." She's like, "No, I don't want anything artificial." I'm like, Oxytocin is very, I mean, is very close to our chemicals. You know, his lab is like really close. We could all go do it. Dude, I'm in. spray of oxytocin any day. This is, by the way, Dr. Zak is the guy who did the vampire wedding. The vampire wedding? The vampire wedding. Like, they got married as vampires? [laughter] No, he talks he calls it the vampire wedding. He's the one who He went to a wedding, I don't know how. Dr. Zak is super charismatic and so I he can convince anyone of anything. He's probably giving us all oxytocin. That's a good strategy. So here's what he did. He convinced a wedding to go to the wedding and take everyone's blood at the wedding. Woah. I know. So he took the bride's blood, the groom's blood, everyone in the wedding he took their their their blood and what he found was is that you could predict how close people were to the bride based on how much oxytocin was in their blood. Woah. Right. That's cool. It's super cool. So the more people felt bonded to the bride, the closer they were, the more oxytocin they had in their blood. I believe there was one exception and forgive me if if this one I I think it was the mother-in-law was even higher than the groom. I think it was something funny like that. The mother-in-law was so oxytocin filled for her daughter. Wow. Sorry, not the mother-in-law. The mother of the bride was was even higher than the groom cuz she was like so happy with her with her daughter. Wow. I I have to check that one. interesting. Yes. So, oxytocin is is is real and it's very nuanced. So, I feel like a a nose shot of oxytocin would make us do all kinds of interesting it would like open our brain up in a connection kind of a way. It's a fascinating molecule that has huge implications in trust. Yes. Which is the when I first started reading about it I was like, "Ooh, this is really interesting." Like if you have a group and you need to develop more trust, it could be a really interesting way. It could also though potentially get you into trouble if it's creating trust with somebody that you shouldn't trust. Oh, that is how con men work. I will tell you my biggest concern with this book is it will get in the wrong hands. Like a question that I get that is the is the question, which is like, "What's the difference between this and manipulation?" Mhm. And I think there is a terrifying line for me and I was something that caused me some writer's block I'll be honest while I was writing where I'm so terrified that these cues will be used for evil not good. And they can be. And they they are. I mean, that's how con men work and that is one of the reasons that what I what I can convince myself of is I would rather equip people to know these cues. You said that woman was touching you and you knew she was touching you and it was working. I would rather you be aware of the cues that are being sent to you to know I want this or I don't because they are that powerful that if someone has bad intentions, they can still produce trust. And that makes me nervous. Yeah, I don't think you will ever be able to control stuff like this. But it would be a bit like, "I'm not going to teach mixed martial arts because the person might use it to beat somebody up." That's true. like I'd rather have the people that can use it to either like you have done overcome awkwardness and use it. I mean, even the book reads very much like a manual for somebody who wants to improve their life, take it to the next level. I think the sub headline on the back of the book it says like if you're tired of being um overlooked overlooked underestimated or interrupted. Yeah, and underestimated, that was the one that really hit me was giving people the tools. In fact, the we've already talked about this, but the um being able to give people subtle cues that you want to interject. And a lot of people I think end up getting steamrolled and they get angry at the other person instead of going I'm going to take Yes. control here to your point. Yes. Um and be able to signal people and you give this progression of well, you can start subtle, you can do the fish, whatever, but then, you know, we get to the point where it's like, "Yo, stop." But being able to um give people the tools so that they can be better equipped to do the stuff. And then I definitely like in relationships it is so easy to be inside your own head, to have a paranoia about like I want to make sure that I'm following this or that I'm coming across well or whatever that you actually stop reading the cues and then you can get blindsided. I think about this a lot as an employer. It's like you're constantly trying to make sure that everybody's okay and that you actually know what's going on inside people's lives. And when somebody will end up hitting a breaking point that you didn't see coming, it's like, "Ah, did I ignore something?" Mhm. And so, yeah, reading nonverbal cues I think is about as close to a superpower as you're going to get. And [snorts] also um vocal cues. You know, we talked about nonverbal, we talked a lot about verbal, but I also think that we hear tension. You know, I think that's something that we is an underestimated cue that we don't talk about enough. But our voice gives away a lot of our personality and our mental state. It's the other thing that like trust your gut on what you're hearing. Ooh, talk about the gut. Yes. Okay, so I think that we know this instinctively, but if we're not listening for it, we ignore it. And that is I've so been in that place you just mentioned where you're like, "Did I miss something? Like are Is someone burnt out and I didn't even see these cues coming?" And so if you're listening to your gut and your intuition more and you know what you're hearing, I think you're like, "Ah, I just heard that." How does the gut work in your mind? So I think that we have this amazing muscle, right? This amazing whatever you want to call the brain, this amazing uh piece of anatomy that is constantly reading all these thousands of cues that are being sent to us. And it gives us a spidey sense. Like it gives us an intuitive hit of like something is off. And what we tend to think is we go into productivity mode. Do we meet the deadline? Do we get it done? Was she late? Was she on time? She's been slow to respond to that email. Right? Like when I get that spidey sense, I typically go I used to go to task. Mhm. Right? Like is there something off in the in performance or behavior in task? I actually want you to go the other way. I want you to go to communication. I want you to be like, "Does she sound okay?" And let's talk about what it What does it mean to sound okay? So what research has found is that we hold a lot of tension in our vocal cords, right? So when we don't take up a lot of space, like for example, if I were to do this interview with my uh shoulders rolled in and my chin down, you already hear a kind of tightness in my voice. And so when someone's on a video call or on a phone call, and they're like, "Yeah, so um just going to give over my weekly updates and and you can hear that tension because it sounds different than when there's space. Mhm. When you're listening for tension, I think that it can give away that fatigue that's coming, that smallness that someone is literally playing small. So you're listening for one is smallness. So as I take up less space, I begin to uh create less volume. You're also listening for vocal fry. So vocal fry, I don't think we we don't talk about it enough. Do you Have you talked or addressed vocal fry on the show? No, only I I never had a name for it until I read this book and I realized that I actually have somebody here at Impact Theory that has vocal fry and I was like, "Every time I hear it, I'm like it seems like she's anxious." And when you described it, I was like, "Aha." Aha. Okay, so vocal fry is when it sounds gross, but when our vocal cords rattle together because there isn't enough air that is coming through them. So, right now I'm working really hard to give enough air, enough volume. I'm actually not working that hard. We're just having a conversation. But if I were nervous, if you were to ask me a very hard question, or if I was feeling burnt out, tired, dismissed, I would lose my volume, and then I would go into vocal fry. Yep. Vocal fry is when we're like talking like this and where sort of not enough breath is coming through, and so you can hear that rattle in the back of my throat. Now, if I were to give my entire interview like this, it would drive you absolutely crazy. Right? It's good. Yeah. So, vocal fry is very simple. It's when we're don't have enough breath to give our voice. So, one, and this is double, you have to hear When are you hearing it? Is it because someone literally hasn't been talking all day and they just need to get themselves revved up? Is it because they're actually anxious or nervous? Like all of a sudden they went from, "Hey everyone, good to see you. Oh, this is going to be great." So, my announcement is like really basic, and then all of a sudden they go into it. And then how do you want to address it? So, do you want to address the emotion or the cue? This is the challenge we have as cue readers. Are you going to address the emotion or the cue? So, do you want to say afterwards, "Are we all good on that? You know, I just want to make sure that you're feeling good." Or follow up in an email, "Hey, I just want to double check on you, Lindsey. Are you sure you're feeling good about that?" So, that's addressing what you think might be happening. Or do you want to address the cue? If you want to get rid of vocal fry, all you have to do is ask someone to speak up. That's fascinating. That's it. If you ask someone to speak up, they have to use more breath. They go, "Oh, yeah. Sure." And they force more air out of their breath, and they immediately get out of vocal fry. I've been in presentations before where someone is giving away their power with vocal fry. They have amazing content, but they're literally giving the entire presentation like this, and so it's really hard to listen to, and it sounds like they just don't believe in what they're saying. And so I will say to them, "Hey, in the back we can't quite hear you. Can you hear in the back?" And they'll immediately speak up and get out of it. So, that's also a gift you can give someone. If you hear someone who's giving away their power and they're doing it accidentally, gift them the breath. Why is it giving away your power? I think that people who doubt their ideas and they doubt themselves, that leaks in their cues. Right? So, they might have the best presentation or they may be the best my finger on that for a second because that feels like a core thing in the book is to understand that you're leaking, whether you're leaking um warmth or whether you're leaking competence or whether you're leaking insecurity, anxiety, you are leaking these things. There is no mute button. I think professionals who are nervous, they hope they could just go mute or stoic. They're like, "I don't know what I want to send, so I'm going to send nothing." There is no mute button. In fact, going mute is in itself is a cue and it is a danger zone cue. Right? When someone poker because that was such a great example. Man, I love looking at poker studies. So, um you kind of you already know the answer to this, but we can play it with with everyone at home. Okay, so let's say that I played a little game with you and I I said that you could watch poker play players playing poker. You have three choices of the kind of videos you could watch. A, the full body. Head, hands, feet. B, just the head. So, as they're playing, all you see is the facial expressions and head movement. Or C, just the hands. So, just how they're playing and dealing the cards. What would you choose, A, B, or C? You already already know the answer. So, yeah. Yeah, but I I [clears throat] know what my real answer is and I would have said the face 100%. Okay, so the first answer actually people usually give is the full body cuz they're like, more information is better. The second most popular answer is the face. I want to see their facial expressions and their tells and their head movement. The actual answer, the people who were the most accurate at predicting how good someone's hand was, was just looking at the hands. And that is because we try to control our leaks. So, if someone has a bad hand, they're trying to control their face and go really stoic. They're trying to not move a lot, and we actually notice that. We notice if they're going stoic or going mute. We notice if they have all of a sudden kind of jerky weird movement. But, our hands are really hard to control. So, people with really good hands have fluidity of movement. They have really sure playing. Their hands are really smooth. And what's amazing is we know this instinctively. When we just look at someone's hands and we take away the other cues, we can spot the good hand by looking at the smoothness of a player's hand. So interesting. And in the book, I sometimes get lost between what's in the book and what I heard in an interview, but I think it's in the book. That there was a woman who 1 year after deciding she was going to play poker ends up winning this incredible tournament. Yes. Um and wasn't she looking at hands? That's what she learned. So, she This is a great book. I and she what she did is she Yeah, she taught herself to play poker in 1 year. She entered these major of tournaments, and the way she was able to climb from table to table to be at the winner's table was she stopped looking at the cues on the face and on the feet, and she really really focused on the hands because that's when she could see if someone actually had a good hand or not. The jerky motion means you're leaking nervousness because think about it. If you're nervous or anxious, A you can't control as much, and B you're expending energy in all kinds of weird spaces. Very highly charismatic people, leaders, don't waste energy. All their movements are purposeful and smooth. That's one of the reasons I said, "Don't touch your face. Don't touch your stomach." is because that's a wasted energetic movement. We like people who are only saying, "I'm going to make a movement with this gesture or this gesture." And so, yeah, she was able to climb to the top of the tables simply by looking at fluidity of hands. She also did a lot of training and mentoring, but that's how she was able to go so quickly. It's cuz she was looking for leaks. Yeah, I didn't see that one coming. Um I thought that zooming in on the face would be better for the same reason that zooming in on the hands works is that you're not getting all this extraneous information. Yes. And the reason that I was asking about gut instinct is, you know, your subconscious is able to take in so much more data than you can process consciously. Yes. And I also heard you talk about um the smell test that they did where they had people jumping out of an airplane versus I don't know if it was running or whatever, but Yes. Yes. So, yes. Exactly as you said it exactly right is our subconscious is this amazing cue reading machine. And so, it is constantly trying to set tell your gut, "Listen. Mhm. That wasn't good. We should be nervous. Or this is person is great." It's constantly trying to speak to us. We just have to listen to it. So, yes, in this study, what they did is they had uh two groups of people wear sweat pads and run on the treadmill. In the second group, they had them wear sweat pads and jump out of airplanes. Obviously, the one on the treadmill were very sweaty, but they weren't afraid. The people jumping out of the airplane had a lot of adrenaline, a lot of cortisol. Then they had people smell those sweat pads. Kind of gross. Really gross. And people who didn't know what they were smelling, people who smelled the skydiving sweat pads began to feel anxious. They actually caught the fear. What's incredible about this is it means that there's these loops happening all over our life that we don't realize that when we walk into a room and we're like, "Why am I in a funk? Why am I in a bad mood? Why am I angry?" A lot of the time it's because you caught some kind of cue that your intuition was going "You got to be on protection mode or you got to be defensive." Or the opposite. You walk into a room or be with someone and be like, "Yeah. I love this feeling." And this is why I think that before you walk into a room, before you walk on a date, before you walk into a networking event, if you can get yourself right, if you can show up as your most confident, competent self, if you know that you have all these cues in your back pocket, you know your stuff, you really have good intention to be warm and trustworthy, that makes you super contagious in a good way. All right, so let's bring this all together for people. There's part of the book that I really liked is choosing better words, really being engaging with people. And I actually thought about opening the interview with this because I do this in real life with a different question, but cutting past the BS and in an interview you threw off the person didn't didn't follow up on it and I was sad. You were giving examples of things you could open with at like a party or something and you said what's your deepest fear? And I was like word. Word. So Vanessa Van Edwards, what's your deepest fear? Mhm. And help us understand why it's so meaningful to find like that to me Yeah. may be one of the most fascinating parts about cues is bringing this all together to really like not incrementally improve your ability to connect, but like to use that to go to a whole new place. Yeah. So I both want to understand actually what your biggest fear is and then why something like that is so it brings us together in a far more interesting way. I think I really want to I really want to answer cuz I think that my answer to this has changed over the years. Right now I think my deepest fear is actually that underestimated word on the back of the book. Now, were you worried other people will underestimate you or that you'll underestimate you? both. I have this like fo- opportunity FOMO. So I constantly have this fear that I'm like missing opportunities. I think that's one of the reasons I wrote this book and the one of the reasons I'm obsessed with cues is cuz I am terrified that I am missing things. I feel like I missed the memo on social interactions, right? Like that's my entire career is trying to write up that memo again. And that really hurt me. Like it really slowed me down for so many years. It destroyed my confidence. It made me have bad relationships. It made me ignore cues. I think for a long time I had really toxic people in my life and I didn't spot the cues. I didn't I saw my guts spotted the cues and I didn't listen. And so I think I don't want to have that anymore. I am terrified of having toxic people who I miss I miss those cues and on the positive side I'm terrified of seeing good people and good opportunities and missing them. Like I I have regrets about people who I let go. Who I'm like what was I thinking? I missed that. And so I think I'm terrified of underestimating others. I'm terrified of missing things that I shouldn't have missed or not listening to my gut. And why is something like that to me was really really interesting and if there were no cameras on and I didn't have to think about the thumbnail headline for the YouTube video, I would have started the interview there. Yeah. Um, why? Why is that so fascinating? Mhm. This actually isn't in the book but I want it's something that I think about a lot. Um, so I read this research I believe it was by Dan McAdams and he talks about three levels of intimacy. You ever heard this concept? It is why I suggested that question what's your deepest fear. What he found is we get stuck in these levels and so he found there are three levels of intimacy between people. This isn't even in cues. This is just what I use. The first level is called general traits. He calls it a general trait. It's like why we get stuck in like so what do you do? Where are you from? Right? It's occupation, age, gender. We get stuck there. We can't get out of it. That's why you have people who you're like Gender. Yeah. Didn't see that coming. Yeah, that's why um I think that if people are um that's why why a lot of now we're saying like he she or like we're saying our pronouns actually helps us get past level one in a weird way. It's like actually answering that it's called I call it the hierarchy of facts. Our brain actually has to learn the basics before it can go deep. And so those are some of the basics. The second level is what he calls personal concerns. Personal concerns, this is the level I like to live at. This is like motivations, values. This is like what gets you up in the morning, what drives you, what what excites you. It's why the questions I often suggest are um working on anything exciting recently? Or what's your hobby these days? It's why I asked you about the the marketplace, right? Like it's it's values, motivations, what drives you. The last level. The level that we don't even get to with some people who are closest in our life is called self-narrative. And self-narrative is the story that you tell yourself about yourself. And so that, if you know someone's story about themselves, the story they're telling themselves about themselves, that's what helps you predict behavior and understand them deeply. And so I think that when you ask someone what's your deepest fear and they're willing to try to answer it for you, they are giving you a clue into level one, two, and three. Right? So like I don't even know in the hours that we've spent together on camera and off camera if I've ever shared anything like that with you that I have allowed toxic people into my life and that, you know, almost destroyed me and that held me back for a real long time and I didn't know I didn't stand up for myself. I don't know if that's ever come out, but that question unlocked it and that is part of my self-narrative and that's the story I tell myself when I'm driving to this interview, when I leave today, when I'm thinking about an Instagram story. It's like it all goes back to that story. So like that's my goal in a lot of my interactions is okay, yeah, let's get let's blow through level one. I don't care what you do. Let's go to level two at least. What do you value? What motivates you? And if I can, like what drives you? What's the story you tell yourself? That I think is a really important lesson and what the one that I ask people, which I think falls into number two, is um well, maybe number three, is what's your deepest passion. Try to keep it positive. I would be reticent to ask somebody that I didn't know or didn't have, you know, on a show like this what their deepest fear is. One, if they don't trust me, they're going to lie anyway, but um getting to something positive, skipping past all the BS. I have another one I can give you. This one like it's a secret it's a secret level three question. And if By the way, I feel I'm like a scared to say it cuz I'm like, all my friends are going to be like, so that's what you've been asking that question. Here's my secret level three question. It's a sneaker. It's um so who's your role model? Who's your hero? The reason why this one is such a good one is because it tells you what they think their own hero is. You talk a lot about heroes. Lisa talks a lot about heroes. The reason why that's interesting is I asked one of my very long friends, so like who's your hero? Who's your role model? Or even uh what uh TV or movie character do you think you're most similar to? And in my head, she's a great mom, she's a homemaker, she's so kind. I thought she was going to pick an amazing like mom, like Laura like Gilmore or something. She goes, oh, Katniss Everdeen. I was like, Katniss Everdeen? Do you feel like you're in The Hunger Games? And she's like, oh yeah, I'm surviving every day. Wow. And I was like, I don't know you. And this is someone who I've been friends with for years. And we had this whole discussion about how she feels like she's fighting for time and fighting for love and fighting for her day and she's like, head above water. Wow. And then I had no idea. So I would ask someone in your life a killer follow-up, though. That's the key because if somebody said that to me, I'd be like, yo, you're a heroine, this is dope, you can fight, like that's incredible. Oh, yeah. But you saw through to what she was really saying and it made me sad but it was what she was say I knew I was like I could feel it from her and so a little challenge if you're willing to like sit down with the people who matter to you and be like, you know, what's your role model? Who's your hero? What character is most like you? And not who you aspire to be. And I will correct people on this. Like when when I ask them this question and they're like, "Oh, like then it's I'm like, not who you aspire to be. Who you are. Like who has your same values and traits." It's really interesting what they say because you'll learn what they value, too. Yeah, that's really interesting. You definitely have to hit them with that follow-up to make sure though that you're reading that character in the same way. Exactly. So fascinating. Vanessa, another book, amazing. Where can people follow along cuz you're putting out content like it isn't just the books. You've got a ton of amazing content. of content I couldn't fit in the book cuz it was too visual. Right? Like I had to have videos and so yeah, I'm putting a bunch of free cues videos, breakdowns, Britney Spears, The Rock. I mean, who doesn't want to watch 15 hours of The Rock videos. So I I do a lot of breakdowns that's on my YouTube channel and then scienceofpeople.com and this is wherever books are sold. Amazing. Love it. goodness, thank you so much. Thank you for your support. Thank you for being such a good friend. Thank you for giving me Lisa. Oh my god. Yes. I'm obsessed with her. very welcome. I'm glad that you guys have gotten close. It's amazing. Love that. And thank you everyone for watching, too. Yeah, no kidding. Yes, thank you guys all for watching and trust me when I say if you figure out what you're leaking, get control of that so that you can communicate more effectively. The idea is definitely not to manipulate people, but to understand how you're coming across. So when I'm palpating my my love handles, I will have a better understanding of what's really going on. And speaking of better understanding what's really going on, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Peace.