Equity That Survives Pressure, Politics, and Budget Cuts

[music] Hey everybody, welcome back. It's another episode of the nonprofit show. Today we're really leaning into a great conversation. Our guest today, Bernardo Ruiz, is going to be talking about equity and how we can actually look at equity that moves the systems of our nonprofits, not just statements, but actual operational movement. And we're really excited to to bring you into this conversation. Welcome, Bernardo. >> Uh, good morning, Julia. Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure. >> It's wonderful. Hey, today I'm joined by the amazing Tim San Antonio, who's had a really busy week, couple of weeks. Um, and uh, we'll we'll jump into that in just a second. First of all, I want to make sure that I express our gratitude to our major sponsors. include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Stamping Boutique, Your Part-time Controller, Third Sector Company, JMT Consulting, and Intuitit QuickBooks. As I mentioned, um I'm Julia C. Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Tim San Antonio is one of our fabulous co-hosts. You have had a really busy couple of weeks. Really briefly, Tim, talk to us about what's been going on in your world. >> Yes. So, I'm actually it's kind of exciting to help sync this up with Bernardo's expertise because ultimately we're establishing a new type of peer learning network around an educational gaming system that I've been uh playing and testing since December with now hundreds of organizations. So, we had our first public launch last week and now we have over 50 people part of this learning network that includes Julia. Uh so, we're going to start to plan both virtual and in-person games. So, if you're in Phoenix, watch out for in October. Uh, and and why I'm really jazzed about Bernardo, you kind of I was even looking at the document that you sent over the systems check. A lot of things come down to alignment. A lot of things are making sure that people have a seat at the table when it comes to generosity. So, I'm really excited about this talk because it's all about making sure that people feel, hey, I'm welcome here. And so, uh, we're all working toward those things. and and so uh Julia, thank you for asking. Uh things are going great and I know we'll have more time to talk about that another time. >> Well, we're very proud of you and we're very very proud and honored to be a part of it. It's >> a good week. >> Yeah, >> it's a very good for for our whole environment and across the nonprofit sector. Bernardo J. Ruiz, he is the chief equity officer and the founder, lead consultant at Bridging International. Um, you can learn more about Bridging Inter International International at their website, bridging international.org. Um, Bernardo, before we get started in this conversation, can you define what equity means? Because I feel like there are a lot of different definitions out there and we use this word, but sometimes we're not really accurate. Help us level set. >> Absolutely. And uh this is a very common question. People think that equity means equality, that we provide the same things to everybody to be successful and to self-actualize. When in reality, equity really means that we provide people what they need and the opportunities that have been denied historically and currently for them to be successful and self-actualize. Equity also means that our organizations, our nonprofit organizations do not decide the outcomes of the people that work with them or that they serve, but they are designed in collaborative partnership with the people they impact and in a way that we provide services and opportunities to meet their specific and unique needs to be successful. >> Okay. So, I always think, and tell me if I'm wrong, I always think of like people that are lined up to go on a foot race and maybe they're on a track, but then everybody that's lined up, maybe somebody is in a wheelchair, maybe somebody doesn't have track shoes, maybe somebody doesn't speak the language and understands that when the the, you know, gun goes off, you run. Is is that a fair assessment of equity? I'm serious. >> Okay, that's a beautiful analogy, Julia. Uh, if we see that, we can see that our white siblings would start at the start line >> and when we have our indigenous, black and other people of color, we start like miles behind that start line >> and then we have obstacles through the course. >> Yeah. >> So, you are uh absolutely right. That's a beautiful analogy. We use it a lot that um because of the systemic oppression that has been built and baked into our beautiful nation, we have had uh opportunities for a certain group of people that have been denied by law to many other people in this in this nation. >> Right. Right. And I think um one of the things that's so pernacious about it is that you just become accustomed to it. you know, as a white woman of privilege, it's it's something that I don't even know. I don't even observe, right? Because it's just like, >> yeah, that's a veryation. >> It's really dreadful. >> Yeah. The ideology of supremacy was built into our laws practice and procedures in a way that it would become ubiquitous for us that we would not notice that we're swimming in the same polluted water or we're breathing the same smoky air. Uh and so we don't really notice it. We um think that it's part of who we are. And if people are not achieving what they need to achieve or that what they want to achieve is their fault. they are either lazy or they are not >> right >> um astute enough or they don't really want to achieve what the systems have actually created barriers for them to achieve >> right okay so then let's lead with this question for you and that is how do we look at equity from just like a statement to actually putting it into our system because it seems to me a lot of people you know are like oh you know I believe in equity and then that's it. They might put it on their website or in their social media. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. A lot of people do that and they think that by doing that we're are really advancing racial equity and that's just a manusc uh Harvard research says is that if you only have conversations and training it will move the middle so long in a short period of time but then it will actually regress and revert to the systemic inequities that are present. What we have found out is that equity must be baked into the walls of the organization. It must be part of the policy development and policy revisions. It must be part of the strategic plans. It must be part of job descriptions and it must be part of the compensation that happens within organizations. And the most important thing is that people must be accountable for those things to be implemented because a lot of things policies are written. But there is not an honor or a set of honors throughout the organization that would help move equity forward and advance social justice. And so that's why a lot of the uh policies just stay in binders or in the websites. >> Yeah. or or they get thrown out the moment that a quarter doesn't work out, >> you know. Absolutely. Financially, and and uh it can have a much even more damaging effect on the morale of the people who were staying there regardless of their position or their their privileges. If the perception is from the leadership that this is something that can be dispensed with is not a core value, it is just a nice to have, then it's not equity at that point. >> Absolutely. You mentioned something that is extremely crucial uh Tim uh having racial equity or or equity embedded into the values of the organization and then being a valuedriven group of people that make him come alive through their daily actions, their roles and responsibilities is what makes equity sustainable. is really part of the DNA instead of an afterthought or instead of just a statement that is said once a year by the CEO or is published in their website. Um, with this political climate, a lot of great organizations have been moving from away from the external validation to the internal systemic ways that we can continue advancing equity uh through their institutions. Yeah, it's frightening because it's such a uh we're and we'll we'll talk about that even more about the political climate and what happens. Um so when you talk about these policies and you talk about you know understanding how we're going to change it seems to me to your point you know we do a lot of things about policy AI policy security policy I mean vacation policies and we do all these things and then they do just sit. How do we as an organization make sure that we craft a policy, but then we keep it up front? Like what does that look like? Is that a poster on the wall? Is that in an email signature line? Like how do we keep the message moving forward? When I was working for Seattle public schools um many many years ago as the director of equity and race relations, we came up with a policy um educational and racial equity. And what we did, we did a marketing plan that really had very targeted interventions throughout the year. uh we said you had to live in another city not to know that Seattle public schools was making the racial equity policy come alive. So we had we had it published uh we had board meetings that were televised that talked about the policy. We actually went to every single one of the 101 schools to talk about the policy and what that would look like to be implemented in the classroom possibly impacting every child that comes into our care. And then we also created racial equity teams within schools that were the internal consultants for their uh staff to provide the support people needed to make that policy come alive. Uh unfortunately a lot of uh organizations just create policy they talk about it at a meeting maybe at a town hall and then they forget about it. >> Yeah. >> When in reality like you said it must be part of daily conversation. We created some cards that people had on the tables for the conference room to ensure that the conversation was guided through the lens of advancing educational justice for each and every one of 65,000 kids that came into our care. Wow. So, you're really living it. You're not just talking about it and pulling it forward. I think that's a an interesting aspect of trying to communicate any new idea, right, Tim? I mean, it's so hard to get to the point where you have a new idea, but that's only half the battle. You got to carry it down the field. >> Yeah. I one of the books that helped influence me in my approach here because I'm a systems thinker, too, Bernardo. And so I think that uh it was called living the brand. >> And so when you think about your nonprofit's brand, your organization's brand, and this extends out into any type of entity, um it's not the logo, it's not the words, the mission statement, it's not even the programs, it's the people, and it's the people executing and bringing those things to others in their communities. And so when you create something and you have it where you can't leave the Seattle metro area without knowing about it, it's because it's not one person doing that. It's a lot of different people understanding and and creating and manifesting that into importance and then and then the stories come too. Um, I'd actually be be curious, Bernardo, if you have a story to share where you're proud of like that light bulb going off for maybe even cuz I think a lot of times when we talk about equity, automatically some folks uh uh especially folks that look like me and Julia might go, "Yeah, but that's not for me. That's to help other people." And it's like, "No, no, no. We get a lot out of this, too. Everybody benefits." So, I'd love to hear kind of the story when that started to click for someone who on face value and it's not about also like centering the white person to make them feel comfortable. I want to make that very clear. It's what when did you start to kind of see this is really good. This is really going to work. >> Yeah. We uh had several opportunities to work with Dr. John Powell at UC Berkeley and he brought the concept of targeted universalism that shows that if we meet the specific and unique needs of the most marginalized, oppressed and discriminated against human beings in the United States, we will raise the water for all boats. We realized that when that happens, when we meet the needs of people who have disabilities, who are experiencing homelessness, who are experiencing foster care, who are experiencing medical issues, and who are black, indigenous or people of color, then we find the strategies to help every single person in a beautiful nation. That includes our white siblings. And that's what a lot of people don't understand that when we benefit each and every person then we benefit our beloved community. >> And like you know Dr. Martin Luther King said we're not free until everyone is free. And so just because privileges were given to our white civilians since inception of this nation to create that division and oppression that doesn't mean that they're not oppressed. in, you know, Martin Luther King letter, uh, the Birmingham jail, he was really calling for other people to unite because they were being oppressed in different ways than racially, but they were still being marginalized. And so once people recognize that, then they see that equity is actually improving the well-being of each and every human being by honoring, valuing, and dignifying their humanity. And then we as a nation can selfactualize >> much of the the work >> much of the work that I like to focus on is around the importance of identity and generosity building trust. That's what I work at at the Aspen Institute. That's what we talk about a lot on this show. And I think the thing to draw out of that is that like we all have our own unique identity >> but there are also things that connect us as humans uniquely. And it's and it's kind of finding those those common bar you know those common threads is is really what this work is about. So love that. >> Absolutely. And the more um people can work with each other uh there is uh research by Dr. Robert Livingston at Harvard University that says that proximity actually elevates and advances equity. And we have been in a nation that historically has had red lining in our neighborhoods and has separated people by policies, practice and procedures which has strengthened that division and that sense of people not really being worth um their humanity. >> Right. Right. It further separates and makes it easier not to address this. When you think about the nonprofits that you look at across this nation, why do they fall short? And what are some things that we could be looking at internally to decide to help uncover while why we are having these initiatives? We might start out thinking, okay, we're going to really tackle this, but then it falls. It falls flat. It doesn't really move forward. What are some things Bernardo that you see? >> It fall flat for several reasons. Uh the first one is that they are not budgeted adequately and there are not leaders assigned to be accountable and responsible for the implementation of those >> initiatives. >> And what happens is also it is an afterthought. It's not really baked into the strategic plans. It's not baked into job descriptions. is not baked into performance management systems within organizations. And so people still see it, oh, this is not what we do every day. This is a nice thing to do. And because I'm a very nice human being, I don't have to do anything else because I'm not racist when we don't have to have racist people to maintain a racist society. And so there is a book by Eduardo Silva titled racism without races that it states that we have created policies, practices and procedures historically and currently that sustain systemic oppression and we don't have to have people that are racist or that have a lot of bias or anything to maintain those systems. And so um that's a part of it. The the other part is that sometimes we don't have the leadership courage to hold it steady when the going gets rough. We have seen organizations that call us to work with them that had hired uh consultants for many years but something has stopped along the way. So they have spent a lot of money, a lot of time, people have become cynical about engaging around racial equity because they haven't seen tangible results. So what we do at Bridging International, we design uh strategies and strategic plans that are targeted to advance equity in meaningful, intentional, strategic ways that holds ownership throughout the organization and that is budgeted adequately to do the work. >> Right. So, let's switch over to another thing that's like been thrown into the mix of all this because the things that you're talking about, we've had Bernardo, we we've been seeing this um you know throughout our communities and our institutions. Now, we have this incredible political change where you're actually um involved in you can lose your funding. you you have all of this pressure from an administration where equity has become a dirty word. How do we deal with this? Do we just wait until there's a new there's a political shift or do we fight back? I mean what what are your what what's your wisdom along these lines? >> It really depends on the context. uh we actually had to uh sunset racising to equity which was organization we were part of for 11 years because we were being targeted. We lost contracts that were for nonprofit organizations that would lose money themselves if they continued working with us. We had a very large contract with the Y USA and the the federal government threatened them that they would take away hundreds of millions of dollars if they continue working to advance racial equity. So depends on the context and uh to the credit on on the Y USA they stopped working towards advancing equity outwardly and they focus more internally and so we actually continue the work in terms of supporting 16 associations across the United States for them to build systems within their programs and services to advance equity. So what we have seen is and we have many medical um organizations that we serve that they have been prohibited from using uh equity words. And so what we do is we frame it in a way to creating health environments and eliminating gaps that thwart the health and well-being of people throughout their communities. And so what we have been seeing is a shift from outward equity to more internal ways of advancing it. And within the organizations that we have been working uh they have created plans or strategic ways to eliminate health disparities across black, indigenous and other people of color or with people with disabilities or people who are part of the comm community LGBTQ plus IA to spirit community. interesting. In some ways, maybe this will result in a strengthening of some uh organizations internally. Is that fair to say that? >> That's completely fair to say. What we are we have seen is that organizations that are that have kept their commitment and they can call it whatever else. If I call water dust but I pour it on my head, I still get wet. And so if we call it whatever we need to call it in order to advance it, you know, I'm not a police um person to say you should use these words or you should not use these words. >> Okay. >> Um what we have seen is that uh we're preparing the leaders from when the political environment is conducive to be also externally strong in the language. So we are setting the foundation within organizations to set the walls and the pillars uh strong enough to sustain equity once we have a more politically inclined environment to say this publicly without having uh repercussions that could be really impactful for organizations and personal lives. Yeah, >> I'd much rather have uh a private conversation that leads to long-term institutional change in an organization versus a really polished performative campaign >> that goes away the moment you know >> some senator notices it on X, right? Like a lot of this stuff is also the outrage machine that that is is manipulating >> a lot of people who who you know if they actually had a conversation about the implications they'd be absolutely agreeing with the vast majority of what we end up talking about and want to put forward. >> Absolutely. Yeah. We we've seen that um very tangibly with organizations and ensuring that this goes beyond a performative intellectual conversation to tangible actions and outcomes is what sustained the work. I have been called to serve in organizations that have had meaningful beautiful conversations and people have cried and people have co but then those conversations died and when they bring me in to support them they always ask me what would be the tangible outcomes that we'll see three to five years from now because that's the bottom line. How are the organization how is the organization going to change to better serve their people and the uh clients coming to their care? >> Yeah. So let's we don't have a lot of time left but um this has been such a hard and it continues to be a hard topic for our nonprofit leaders. How do we get them through this equity fatigue when they're still charged to do their work and they still are passionate about their mission, but it's just such a negative and honestly a fearful environment. What are some things that we can do so that we we help our leaders keep leaning in? Yeah, Ronald Hyetsz at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard talks about adaptive leadership and holding steady and uh he talks about leaders that sustain the organizations through transformational change in the long term and they uh have realized in their studies that they have leaders that are not flip-flopping. When they get a little bit of political pressure, they say, "Oh, no, we're not going to do this." is but they continue being firm and also they see that um leaders also maintain uh budget line items for this work in the face of budget cuts >> and that's that's a huge issue that sometimes it goes away like that's that's an expendable thing that can go away right >> and then people get cynical and say you see this is not a priority because we kept these other things that were core for the organization to continue functioning. But when it comes to equity, we're willing to cut it and not advance it. Also, when it gets really hard for executives that want to unintentionally or inadvertently maintain the status quo because they benefit from it. >> Um, that's when people get burned out and say, you see, their commitment is not strong enough. These two shall pass and we just need to ride the wave because there's going to be another initiative. And that causes burnout and cynicism. And also what we realized from that uh those studies at Harvard is that organizations have sustained this work. Actually people stay organizations longer and they state that they have a healthier working environment as a result of their continuous and sustainable implementation of this work. >> Right. It's so important and it's uh I feel like Tim this is just like core to who we are in the nonprofit sector. >> So it's so disturbing that this is is being challenged. >> I think it's a people thing. It's a systems thing, right? nonprofits, you know, I've had jobs where, you know, you would think things would be more equitable, you know, based on the mission or things like that or I've worked with organizations, uh, you know, with that. And so, um, at least for me, like I think we have a higher standard that we might want to have, but we're not immune from these types of issues, unfortunately, because it's a larger systemic thing. It's just like it's hard to go out into the broader world and you see, you know, companies getting railed, you know, by social media influencers and designated campaigns and a little, you know, small grassroots nonprofit or why, you know, why or somebody's going to look at that and go, "Well, they yelled at Target. I don't want to get yelled at on the internet for doing these types of things." And and the reality is is that uh Bernardo, as you've indicated, the more people see the work, the more people talk about it, the more people see the benefits that are very obvious, not only in research, but in practice, um they're going to feel more confident. They're going to know this is going to be a thing that benefits me. So, uh platforms like this, Julia, to kind of showcase those stories, I you know, Bernardo, this is one of the first times I've been exposed to your work because of this platform. And and that's great, right? like that's the type of thing that's going to help keep it going in my opinion. Uh where I do Julia I do believe that we could be leaders for the broader society on how it could be done and Bernardo it's people like you that are going to help shine that way. >> Yeah. Really amazing. Well, this has been a fabulous conversation. Uh Bernardo >> goes by so quick. >> It it has. I I mentioned this to you Bernardo and Tim in the green room. It goes by fast and it really has. Bernardo J. Ruiz. He is the chief equity officer, founder, and lead consultant at bridging international. You can check out bridging international.org. And you can learn more about Bernardo, his work, and what we should be thinking about when we look internally at our own organizations before we ever go out to serve our community. I think it's really powerful work. Bernardo, thank you. I'm just delighted that you could join us on the nonprofit show. It has been my pleasure. Thank you for having me. >> It's been a lot of fun. Um, I want to make sure that I identify this picture that Bernardo's team sent over because he's actually speaking at Harvard in this image and [snorts] uh sharing his knowledge and his wisdom to the broader community of leaders there. So, >> and looking amazing by the way. Like I was just waiting to ask like what is that beautiful >> like fabric? >> What are you wearing? Basically. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So that's part of our cosmology is um people erroneously call it the astic calendar when it's a solarium and it showcases um our ways of being how to behave in community to strengthen our beloved group of people and so um yeah I got I got that in Mexico and I work with pride um because it's part of who I am. >> I love it. That's magical. Well, again, what a great conversation uh with both of you today and we need to have this conversation continue. Uh it's a very very important thing and I think we learned so much from Bernardo Ruiz today. So, thank you. Thank you so much. Again, I want to thank our partners and they include Bloomerang American Nonprofit Academy, Staffing Boutique, your part-time controller, Third Sector Company, JMT Consulting, and Intuit QuickBooks. These are the folks that make it possible so we can have conversations like we've had today with Tim San Antonio and Bernardo Ruiz. Um, as we end each and every episode of the nonprofit show, we leave you with this message and it goes like this. To stay well so you can do well. >> [music]