Episode 58: How to Discover the Divine Purpose in the Natural World

It's been [music] a long, long day. I got a lot to say. It feels like I'm carrying a two-ton [music] weight. I go and see a friend. >> [music] >> Hello. I'm Monsignor Patrick Winslow. >> And I am Father Matthew Cowell. >> And we are speaking from the rooftop. [music] >> A podcast brought to you by TAN Books. >> In which we invite [music] you to join our conversation out here in the open air. >> Where we look out upon the world around us from the rooftop of the church and share with you what we see. >> [music and singing] [music] [singing and music] >> Well, hello there. >> Well, good morning. How are you? >> I caught you off guard. >> A little bit. I was thinking. You should [music] try sometime. >> [laughter] >> I won a lottery. I actually found the moment that you had to think. >> Oh, heavens. My autopilot. What's going on? Happy Easter season again? >> Yes, likewise. >> in the Easter season. >> I'm I'm in a a different setting at the moment. Um I'm in my home chapel. I think it's Yeah, so welcome to my home everybody. But it's it it I set up here occasionally when I have to do an interview or something like that. Um Uh but I also obviously I mostly pray here and offer mass here on the occasions where I don't have a public mass uh where I am otherwise committed. >> Nice. >> So, yeah. Glad to have Glad to invite people into my home. Um >> Our walls are sort of similar there. I just noticed that. >> They are a bit. >> They are actually. I think that I think that the the light that I have on is calling it a little more green to match yours, but in reality this is just a little more little less green than yours. But you're probably not very good at discerning colors. >> Most things I'm not very good at discerning. >> [laughter] >> All right, so here's a question for you. >> Yeah. >> All right, both of us are in our 50s, right? Are we both in our 50s? >> Yep. >> Okay. So, from our perspective what [clears throat] do you think lies at the root of most people's challenges? >> Aside from sin? >> Well, I mean obviously we can get right down to the rock bottom. >> Of course. >> You know, we could say sin and death, but uh the type but the type of roots that people don't ordinarily take notice of, but if they took notice of would be helpful. But we can begin of course by saying that um obviously sin and death is at the root of it all. Uh but extrapolating out from there it kind of hits people's [clears throat] lives differently, uniquely, but there tends to be I think some common traits or common experiences that trip everybody up. Or that an aspect to the struggles that we have um that we're not really seeing well. And if we might be able to see a little bit better, we we might have a better chance. >> I mean I have a I have an initial thought. I It may be too 30,000 ft level. Maybe you're looking for more granular, but um I've been thinking a lot lately about about since Easter season and the way in which our Lord would transition us from having him in the flesh to not having him in the flesh and developing a kind of sacramental vision of life. Um it's been on my mind a lot. And one of the things that occurred to me is is Aristotle once said that that genius can be shown in the one who is the master of metaphor. But something you can't teach. You can't teach metaphor. In other words, you're seeing a proportion between two different things. So, A is to B what C is to D. Very simple sort of thing like that. And and the way in which um the poet, for example, will take things that everyone else thinks are dissimilar and shows out shows how they are have a certain similarity and proportion. Then puts it into relief. I think I used the example once of the of a lion's mane and a chrysanthemum. Two things that are very very different, but because they both are coming from God, they have a kind of likeness to God in some way. And they happen to have a likeness to each other, each bringing out the sort of the attribute of the other. Um or as we say typically that that evening the evening of the day is like the the the end of one's days, right? The end of one's life. The sun is setting or something to that nature. And I was when I thinking about it it's certainly the case that we look for those kinds of similarities. We look for ways to express ourselves, especially those of us who teach or preach a lot. Um to try to bring in something that's very familiar to someone to express something that's not similar or not not not not familiar, I should say. Um by these sort of proportions. And so whenever we're preaching or teaching, we're looking for analogies, right? We're looking for it's kind of like Um it's it has a certain proportion of this or whatever to to try to draw people's minds um lead them on uh to see something cuz you can't make them see it. Um and then I got to thinking that I'm always looking for that metaphor, that analogy. Um but our Lord does the opposite. Like he's not walking around saying, "You know, that's a vine. That's kind of like me. I'm kind of like a vine. You're kind of like branches. And you're kind of like I'm going to see the fruits that hang off the branches, etc. It's just the opposite. Like he's creating these things into into reality. Like when he looks at himself and beholds himself and makes the vine, he the analogies that he uses, the metaphors he uses in his parables are not apt because they are that in creation and then he applies them to something else. They are that because he's applied them to himself in creating them. See what I'm saying? >> Well, um partly. So, let me see if I'm getting what you're laying down. So, you're saying that because he's the creator of these other realities, that there's something more going on than the type of analogy or metaphor that we would make. >> Yeah, we make the metaphor on this side of creation and see the similarities, the the the proper proportions. But he, looking at himself and creating, when he thinks for example like I'm going to give them my body. And so he makes bread. I'm going to give them my blood and he and he creates wine. Like he he creates those things in view of the end. >> So, you're saying there's a certain premeditation. >> Yeah, I mean everything in creation there >> The thought preexists the reality. >> Yeah, all the effects resemble causes in anything we do. But for him as the cause of causes, >> Right. So, you're saying you're saying that we we kind of stumble on stumble upon and learn you know, the metaphor, the analogy >> Exactly, of the divine mind. >> He's the foundation and the author of them before they're ever discovered. >> Right, and the reason I'm bringing that up is because I think that one of the main problems in the world now with the reductionistic, materialistic uh empiricist sort of world that guys like you and science have reduced us to um there's no meaning. Right? There's no discovery, there's no adventure. And so we we try to find ways to cure us of boredom by iPhones and whatever else, but but like that want of purpose or want of meaning that I think is spawned by an absence of of wonder at things that actually are already and how much they're communicating to us. >> Have you been reading more of The Master and His Emissary? >> I haven't, no. No, I haven't. >> Because you're I mean you're just hitting the nail on the head. >> Is that right? No, I've not read that. I wish I had. >> Um and what was the other book you wrote? I can't remember which came first, either. >> Something about matter matters? >> What is it? >> Matter matters or something? >> Yes, yes, yes, yes. So uh just so that people know what we're talking about I we may have mentioned it in the past. >> And he's not a he's not a theist or he is a theist, but he's not a Christian necessarily. >> Sure. But his insights are are worthy. >> Well, but how the brain works. And I'm just getting to it from the from the standpoint of that if you saw creation like that, that sacramental creation, that all things that are manifest physically are communicating something to us that's not merely physical. Mhm. That it's it's a letter as it were from God. It's it's revelation of God. Um it has meaning and purpose and beauty and and and it's from him. Um >> Right. >> It makes life so different. >> I agree. I think that the reason why I bring up the master's emissary and what's the author's name again? >> McGilchrist. >> McGilchrist, who is a psychiatrist? He's an MD specialist specializing on neuro, in particular the neurologist. >> Neurologist, yeah, yeah. >> So, he's done a really in-depth study and presentation of the different hemispheres of the brain that go way beyond the really false truisms that people say about, you know, you're left-brained or you're right-brained. You know, where you're, you know, the left brain is very very technical and scientific and the right brain is artistic. Well, he says it's all hogwash. Um, but he really but he does characterize the left brain activity as being very localized, uh, very data local, um, and then whereas the right brain activity is being that which is involved in extracting and finding pattern and connecting [clears throat] and drawing out meaning. >> Wholes, not parts. >> Right. So, he's you know, what what he's saying ultimately is that they're both important to the process, the biological process of thinking and coming to know uh, with the use of our bodies or brains. But he is giving a certain primacy to the right brain, the right hemisphere, because it needs to bring coherence and draw meaning. And, and and he is actually kind of saying that our culture is going the way of idolizing >> No, just sense that. >> Really idolizing the the left hemisphere thinking which is uh you know, dividing every atomizing everything. >> Yeah, manipulation. >> Right. And that that that that ultimately is behind so many of in in in in in the psychiatric realm so many uh or uh what we would call psychologically um uh well, I guess mental illnesses >> Yeah. >> uh where the right the right hemisphere is not engaged in the way it should be and so people have all sorts of uh strange perceptions of reality and you people would you know, you might say in in years past, "Oh, they're crazy." Right? They can't they can't pull the whole thing together. Uh there's something wrong with them. >> Yeah. >> And you're saying culture is doing this. >> Yeah. >> Culture is is actually moving in this direction and it leads to kind of like a craziness in the common view of reality because >> Yeah. >> it's it's so atomized. But what you're saying, kind of getting back to your point is the need for us to recognize that the master really is the right hemisphere of the brain the left being its emissary and that the that the the right hemisphere of the brain thinking uh in terms of extrapolating meaning, drawing out connection, seeing the similarity, the dissimilitude pulling it all together and drawing out meaning that that that really is something that's on the forefront of the Christian journey >> Yeah. >> with respect to understanding God and and drawing out meaning. I mean, I don't mean to bring it all to that. You're the one who introduced me to this this author just >> Yeah, no no. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And and and the the the parallel not the parallel but the fulfillment of that sort of capacity of the right brain. If the emissary is gathering in a particulars and and and the master is the one extrapolating meaning. Then you take it to that next level and realize that there's someone who put the meaning there. >> Right. >> And I'm I'm I'm getting to read it. Like I was made to read that and and to receive that communication from him. Um yeah, totally. >> You know, it it reminds me a little bit about about something recently um relative to my line of particular work in the life of the church. Uh and and Jesus' priestly prayer at the Last Supper in the Gospel of John. Um mainly his emphasis is praying for unity, that they may be one as we are one. And there's an enormous emphasis um on this issue. And if one merely at the superficial superficial level looks at that prayer and says, "Well, it's you know, for the unity of all believers, that we're all one." And it just kind of glosses it over, I I don't think we're drawing out the true meaning. And I'll tell you I think one of the reasons why it is such a profound for lack of a better term intercession on behalf of the Son of God. Um is because I I have to say that most of the things I deal with uh either as a canonist or in the life of the local church, which I would imagine is the same in the universal church, are issues that keep us united. Um They can be from squabbles uh between priest and people or people and people or priest and priest. They can be um you know, issues that pertain to the understanding of a doctrine, um what we say, what we don't say. How do we all stay on the same page of the common common faith and discipline life of the church? And it's the area that requires the I think the greatest amount of muscle uh in the the life of the church. It really is extraordinary how much muscle uh labor goes behind ultimately what I think could be characterized as keeping the unity in the life of the church. I mean this is I I think one of the great, you know, one of the great purposes of the Code of Canon Law. It's a It's a legislative text that's coming from the Popes and it's keeping us all on a common page. And it's how we live and move in the life of the church. It's our anatomy and physiology in the life of the church. It's It's our our kinesiology, how we act and behave um with the outside world in the life of the church. And I would imagine that you would have a similar experience in the in the life of the seminary. How much of your, you know, your blood, sweat, tears, and prayers in a given day have to deal with keeping everybody together and keeping everyone moving in the same direction and dealing with those those those challenges that happen between individuals or groups. Uh it's it's constant. I mean, it's one of the reasons why I pick in the secular world, we see it uh outside of a Christian or religious context, we see that, you know, the HR department in a in a corporation is such a large looming feature. Why? Because even just in the secular organization, you're trying to keep the whole together. And there are certain rules and norms that you have to abide by and live by in order to be able to be part of that whole and And the whole thing work. and it isn't That's why you you you end up with employment law and >> Yeah, social entropy Social entropy is real. >> It's real, right? I mean, it's profound. And so, it really struck me recently, you know, cuz I'm always looking for ways in which to justify the work that I do in a given day or week. Uh try to track it back to the gospel to make sure that I'm still leading >> [laughter] >> a religious life, because so much of what I deal with is practical and this sort of stuff that I'm always happy to intellectually tie it back to, you know, a sense of my own priestly vocation. Um and it really struck me uh how it ties back to that earnest profound plea of Christ uh to the Father and the Spirit for that we may be one as he is there. >> No, that's true. You you Have you ever heard of Jacob Collier? >> No. >> He's a fairly famous musician, very young young guy. Um he's maybe maybe 30 at this point. Um won a ton of awards for his musical capacities. He's he's really a really a phenom and and um I happened upon a video of his that someone sent to me. And he walks He's perfect pitch, first of all. He plays about uh 20 different instruments. >> Oh, like me. >> Exactly. So, he walks into a symphony and he's kind of dressed a bit like a clown. He's he's sort of baggy clothes. He's all over the place. He's kind of wild. >> one of these undercover videos? >> No, no. He just walks in and he he's he's well known. >> Oh, this is just Is this truly how he presents himself generally? He's not trying to lie. >> He's just He's always wearing very colorful baggy weird sort of things. And he's he's It's like his character. He's He's extremely bright, not only in terms of intelligence, but also in terms of his his personality is bright. >> Okay. >> And he's English and he can kind of pull the whole thing off. Um >> Uh-huh. >> I don't know him at all, but this video that I watched was fascinating because he he went in there and I guess he does this with some frequency and he went first to the string section and said I from the bases I want I want a called a D D minor chord here or I want it I want a D flat here or whatever else and every time he told the instrument what to do he would make the sound. >> Mhm. >> And they would >> With his with his mouth. >> Yeah, like he would always hit the exact right note. To the point where he had to correct some of the instruments cuz he would he has he knows every note in his head. >> Wow. >> His trying to do is create something out of nothing. He had no prior decision of what kind of music he was going to make. But he went to every single section, gave them their notes, sometimes a succession of notes um and then he would make one section play together then this this section play together and then he brings the whole thing together then has them stop. Then he goes to the crowd. And he he says now you here and he points to a section of the crowd. And he gives them a note. And they sing it, he goes like this, they raise it, he goes like this, they lower it. He does the whole thing with different sections then he brings the entire thing together and it was stupefying. >> Really? >> Mesmerizing. I have to say in the video. Uh but the reason I'm bringing it up is it's not that everyone has to play the same note. >> Mhm. >> Or that everyone has to play the same instrument. But if you're not making something that fits with everyone else, right? You're just dissonance. >> Yeah. >> And and we we part of the part of the fall is just that I don't want to be a part of a whole. I want to be a whole. >> Mhm. >> You can't make me say that. And and and so I'm not >> Uniformity and unity are not the same thing. >> And the fights that I do cuz I'm I'm trying to my job here is to make sure that that that I protect the common good. Not just the individual good. Yes, you might like that. You may want that to be your preference and your preference has to be somehow bolted onto everyone else, but that's not part of the common good. >> Right. >> Um, play your instrument. Play it well. I'm not trying to make you like everyone else. Um, but you had to but here's the key. >> Right. Which is to play in unity. >> Yeah, exactly. And so when this happened, it's I want you to watch it because I mean I it brought me to tears. It it it looked like creation to me. >> Mhm. >> It looked like Christ himself in creation just now you're going to play this and you do this and everyone had to obviously express themselves in their own >> [snorts] >> musicality, their their own professionalism. Uh, they had to know no one remember how to play those notes. >> They didn't know how they were going to fit in with everyone else. >> idea. >> Yeah. >> And what came out of that was so much more than any given person or any given instrument. And you could tell that everyone in the entire stadium or or audience hall, musical hall, was just euphoric about the fact that they were participating in something larger than any of them. >> Isn't that something? >> just creating out of nothing. >> That's beautiful. >> Yeah. >> That is beautiful. >> something. >> And I think it does tie into the the point um, as much as it was a gratuitous tangent on your part. >> Well, it it was slightly, it's true. But I >> Well, but no, but it does it actually does because >> like a conductor. >> Yeah, well, you're saying that there's the difference between unity and um, >> uniformity. >> Yeah, uniformity. >> this, right? >> Right. >> I imagine you feel like a conductor. You're conducting basically the entire diocese. Well, obviously you're a vicar general, not the bishop but so much of what you have to do is like I'm not trying to make you act like Father so-and-so. I'm not trying to force you to act like so-and-so or whatever, but but here's the here's the music. >> Right. And this is what we're all singing. >> In the key of C. >> We're all singing this. >> Yeah, without question. Now, how do we take the the point that you bring up about seeing the pattern and connecting it um in such a way that people can apply to their their own lives. Like for example, I could see how um proportion. They have the ability to look at all the things that are going on around you and try to put them in the right proportion uh would would lend itself to the advice or at least the issue that you're addressing which is I think being able to as you say to see similarity and dissimilarity and things like that. Well, I think you're looking at also the size of things and the proportion of things and seeing whether they're uh appropriately proportioned. So, for example, I think often times we allow very small things to take over. I think we allow we don't allow the small things to actually become small. And that they play on our weaknesses or faults in such a way they become disproportionate. >> Mhm. >> And to be able to have the perspective to see when that happens. And I I mean I see it all the time. Like why why is this rather small matter just knowing at me? >> Mhm. >> Most of the time there's some fault of me involved. You know, most of the time it's because this presses my button here. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> You know, and so if I address this thing that's right proportioned in size um I have to address in some way this button that keeps being pushed. I have to somehow separate it out, but even ideally address why I have that button to begin with. Um if it's distorting reality. >> Mhm. Yeah. I mean I I think that's a different use of the word proportion that I was going for, but I I see what you're saying. But you could you could get there by you you know bring them get there by saying, "How does this fit Mhm. in the whole? Where does this fit in my life in the whole?" >> In order to discern the correct portion. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I see what you're saying. You you know when you when you >> Well, proportion for me was a a relation between two things that are dissimilar, but but they they >> No, no, I I I get that. I get that. >> Like a ratio. Like a ratio. >> I I get that. Mine was a just one one step away from what you were saying. But but it's [clears throat] a it's a result like from the exercise that you're doing I've seen things appropriately and using metaphor and analogy to see things appropriately. You might discover that you're blowing things out of proportion in your life and then you could >> That's for sure. Yeah, and I totally I think that what I'm wanting to generate in the men here in myself um you know, there's a kind of a there's a moral and and Catholic um imagination. >> Mhm. >> You know, that I I my imagination was sullied from childhood, you know, with and TV and idiotic things and what have you and I and to clean all that out and develop an actual hobby tooth of trying to see the world as the world was given to us by God and relations between things. Having a sacramental vision. It means attending to things and and actually contemplating them. That's hard to do. It's it's just really hard to focus on anything for for much time um and to let it disclose itself to you if you will. Um I don't know, it's just so beautiful out right now and I guess I'm I'm in that spring mode where I sit outside >> Well, you are you are reflecting upon those things that exist in nature versus you know analogy or metaphor based upon those things that are the result of creation like a car or an animal >> Yeah sure they're all natural things that are >> You're talking about natural those things that are directly created by God >> Yeah I know I know >> natural forms >> It's such a it's just such an enjoyable way to live but then it it it if you if you can attend to things that as they are in creation it certainly helps you to attend to things as they are in you and where things are >> of the reasons why the the bees feature in the Exsultet >> I know I love that >> And also like in St. Francis de Sales I'm pretty sure in some of the things that I read about You know he he draws upon a lot of analogy with the bees and it is a pretty big deal to actually make it to the level of the Exsultet at the Easter Vigil. I mean those bees are reflecting something significant. >> Yeah >> Well that goes back to my point of unity >> I was just going to say if we draw these two things together when we look at what do you call that in in biology in in ecosystem you know or um >> symbiotic >> just the relations out there that make all that work I'm I'm by the window here like in that grass is not just grass there's so many different things that allow grass to grow >> Yeah it's an the whole ecosystem >> whole ecosystem is going on in there and how and how they depend upon each other and how they can't actually exist without each other >> Right there's an inter dependence >> Yeah >> Mhm >> I love that and it you can't no one lives this is the no man is an island kind of thing you don't ever live as a whole you're always part of something else even though you're a unique person and all that kind of stuff but and the the faith just makes it that much more because we're united in the one common good who is God Um, at the same end We We're not in the same truth. Um, which doesn't mean sameness. >> Mhm. That's true. That's great. >> Yeah, and just so for just so people know, um, there there is there there's a sentence to to you uh about the bees or at least one sentence anyway or a phrase about the bees making the wax and when into producing the candle that is being blessed. >> Mhm. >> Um, and it's part of the prayer that uh you that is chanted um, at the time right after the the the candle has been blessed. The candle is being processed into the church and the light of Christ is illuminating the darkness in the church and is supposed to be chanted by the the deacon, sometimes the priest and if not a a cantor. Uh and you know, it's it's a pretty exalted place. >> No no pun intended. >> Yes, none. It's called it's called the Exsultet. And it's very beau- beautiful, but it really draws upon the natural imagery. Of course, it draws upon images of sacred scripture, but there are a few references to the natural imagery, the bees that make the wax. And of course, we also see in in the writings of various saints an example of the different roles uh that the bees have in their hive and how they there's a certain ro- royalty and a noble class and a worker class and how they all come together to serve a whole. >> And that's >> That's being held out as an example of of of I don't want to say perfect society, but something like it where that we're all collaboratively working toward a common end and we're working together in our own ways. And as you said earlier on, uh talking about just taking our part and being the best at it, you know, doing what we're supposed to do. >> Yeah. >> And there is that imagery in the in the bees. I mean, here it's interesting that we find ourselves starting the conversation ultimately about um or preeminently about how it is that we look toward we we we look toward the patterns that exist in those things around us and draw analogy and metaphor to learn things. This is kind of your advice about facing the stuff that we all that we face in life and how to persevere. And now, after this conversation, we're actually coming back to a concrete image such as the bees um being something like that where we can draw out from it in its metaphor and analogy the the types of things that one can learn from a beehive. >> Uh indeed. I mean, you think about the passage that we sing all the time in on a Sunday. You know, from the sacred scriptures about snow and hail, blessed the Lord, ice and rain, whatever >> Right. Right. >> And it goes through so many of the things and of course, you know, the the great devotion of our friend Father Gober >> Mhm. >> about the four of the day into Easter one year and you have to say that every morning and he looks at this everything on this page, blessed the Lord. >> Just [laughter] get right to the point. >> But the particularity, right? Sea creatures, you know, land creatures. It goes it goes this this song of praise goes through everything cuz all those things blessed the Lord, but it's man, the natural beast, the one who can read and is rational can say, I know how you're blessing the Lord. >> Yeah. >> And I offer this up as a rational sacrifice, right? A reasonable sacrifice as as the mass says. That I'm my praise is drawing up all the creation beneath me to see how you've done this and to praise you for it. That's just a good way to live. >> That's beautiful. >> Yeah. >> Okay. All right, well, then. >> Well, before we go, I wanted to ask you about um first of all, it was fun having the the live uh show >> It was I hopefully we're able to >> I think we salvaged something yeah we microphones are messed up and and Ken has so graciously set both you and I up with a new microphone and we've yet to pull out the >> Every time we got together we forget to pass it on to me cuz so I will do my best >> is the last time with inferior microphones. >> That's the plan. >> But it was fun and I think that at some point you then or after that we got talking about um your method to determine real estate in your life. >> Oh yeah. Yeah well I know we talked about some some practical ways to fool yourself or >> We did but I was going to key up on the the one about real estate. >> So the in in particular I was saying how I'll look at certain things in my drawers in the kitchen and I'm like what are you doing there? You don't pay the real estate. I mean I'm sorry you you can't afford the rent in this district. >> That's right. >> It's like real estate. So I'm like you you need to go to the garage. I use you once a year and you're occupying space here right on the boardwalk. No. >> No no no. >> So I I do this I hear the suburbs. And I feel you know the funny thing is when you turn it into a game like that it's very motivating cuz I I start to feel the injustice. >> What are you doing? >> [laughter] >> You can't afford that. Get back to your place. Get in the garage. Then it forces me to find a place >> Cuisinart you do not belong on a counter. >> What's that? >> A Cuisinart does not belong on a counter. >> No. No it does not if it was working every single day it could pay the rent. And it's like the coffee maker. You know the coffee maker pays the rent. >> It does. >> You know if you want to so much so that if you want to get one of those appliance garages where you pull it down over the you know what? It's worth the extra expense because the coffee maker deserves its wage. Like it it can afford to have a very expensive garage door in front of it. >> Yeah, this is like the parable of the of the uh the workers in the vineyard. Where they the last ones get the same wage. No, no. This is a better strict justice. >> This is strict justice. >> [laughter] >> You know, and sometimes you know, sometimes I do elevate. You know, I'm like, this needs to be in the kitchen. And uh this >> Oh, so there's social mobility in both >> directions. >> Yes. Yes, like a pair of pair of scissors, for example. It's amazing how often in a in the course of a week I need to grab a pair of scissors. >> Mhm. >> They now prominently and proudly occupy a high risk high place and what I call my the organized drawer. My I I don't call it a junk drawer because my father thinks that that's a license to just throw everything in there. So, I insist that it's referred to as the organized drawer. >> Okay. >> So, when he's here, um I'll say it's in the organized drawer. And he'll say, "You mean the junk drawer?" I say, "No. It's an organized drawer." That's how If we If we can't find things we own, we might as well not own them. >> Yeah. >> So, the there's some order and organization. Actually, so before we go, I'll tell you a little bit about how I've organized my otherwise known as junk drawer is I had some extra silverware racks. You know, that little partitions you put in the drawers to appear so >> ask you a question about those just before you go on? >> What? >> Why do they get dirty? >> I don't know. You know what? It's a great question. >> perfectly perfectly clean silverware in there. Anyway, go ahead. >> I Maybe it's stuff that falls off >> Losing a sock in the drawer in the dryer. I don't understand it. Go ahead. >> I Well, it just happens. So, I took the rack those silverware racks, uh two of them, and I put them in the drawer. And there's some negative space that but that kind of works to partition that that space [clears throat] that it doesn't you know that is still left over and it creates all these you know places that I'm not going to use for silverware but it's a place for scissors or tape or paper clips or you know whatever it is you want to put in there. And it just helps keep it a bit organized. And I thought this is great because when I had a junk drawer in the past part of the problem is was was its formlessness. It was just you you pick what everything just went everywhere. Again, it's pointless. I mean I would go buy something new cuz I couldn't find it. And then one day when I finally organized my junk drawer there were these things and I thought well that was a waste. You know why did I even bother? Yeah, you didn't pay the rent. You know you weren't even there when I needed you. So I had to >> Landlord evicted him. >> Yeah, but I'll tell you though it helps me Gretchen is she's my admin assistant at the at the diocese and she's helped me see that there are very clever ways that you can engage parts of yourself that you're not inclined to like for me doing a lot of this order and organization. If you were to listen to me you might think I was in you know a neat freak or super organized or you know type A. I am not. These are learned skills but I I do get frustrated by the absence of that order that motivates me enough to you know okay I got to address this because this is cumbersome. But Gretchen has brought some of these tools simple things like try to make things fun. You know she gives me stamps. It's so much better than just signing a piece of paper. I get to stamp it. You know and then I can sign. It's like It appeals to the the second grader in me. That's just so much more fun. I get this I get to the end and I get to do something right? Um >> Are your stamps do little sugar? >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like getting a sticker. You know, a little smiley face or something. And then it's she does the same thing in terms of order and organization because she she's extremely organized. And so she has to do the hard thing of trying to get me to be ordered and organized so that she can help me fulfill all the things I need to do. Uh and she's extraordinary. So I've learned a lot a number of these things because I've watched her try to dupe me into order and organization. She's tried to fool me, coax me along with these little tiny tricks that you would think are only useful with toddlers and they work on me. So now I've started to do them to myself. And at home and it's been to great effect. It really has. It's been to great effect. >> Well, wise, wise. I want that bit of wisdom to go out to the folks. >> What's that? >> I want that bit of wisdom to go out to the folks. >> Well, good. Good. >> Enjoyed the conversation. >> All right. Well, then I took care of You propped me up and >> Yeah. >> I took care of it. That was our our our tandem before we go. >> Exactly. Exactly. Awesome. >> [music] >> All right. >> Well, blessings blessings on all of you. Have a great week. >> Yes. >> And we'll see you next time. >> happy Easter. >> Yeah. >> Bye-bye now. >> [singing and music] [music] >> Thanks [music] for listening to this episode of From the Rooftop. >> For updates about new episodes, special guests, and exclusive deals for From the Rooftop listeners, sign up at rooftoppodcast.com. >> And remember for [music] more great ways to deepen your faith, check out all the spiritual resources available at 10books.com. >> And we'll see you again next time from the rooftop. >> And >> [music] >> you were >> [singing] >> you were.