Episode 57: St. Joseph College Seminary Open House - Question and Answer

It's been a long, long day. I got a lot to say. It feels like I'm carrying a two-ton weight. I go and see a friend. >> Hello. I'm Monsignor Patrick Winslow. >> And I am Father Matthew Coward. >> And we are speaking from the rooftop. >> A podcast brought to you by TAN Books. >> In which we invite you to join our conversation out here in the open air. >> Where we look out upon the world around us from the rooftop of the church and share with you what we see. >> Makes me want to scream from rooftop to the street. >> Hi and welcome to St. Joseph College Seminary. We had our 10th anniversary recently and during that we had a number of various events and one of the events was actually inviting people to come and sit with us, myself and Father Winslow, um do a live recording of From the Rooftop, our typical podcast. And in this case, the people who came were also able to proffer the questions for us that we would then discuss. And so it was a fun time, fun to be live like that in front of people and have a general conversation going on. The only difficulty is equipment and so we messed that up. At some point his mic went off, which was probably a good thing. And at some point mine went off, which is a horrible, horrible thing. Um but uh I know that this recording therefore of this particular podcast will not be the best quality. So I apologize for that. We want to make sure we got it out there to everyone simply because the people that were participating in that, no doubt, will want to hear their their own questions and and maybe the responses to which they they could write something down if they wanted to or or ask a follow-up question. So just for them and for anyone else who might be able to uh to listen to it, I hope you enjoy and God bless you. >> I'm always fascinated on learning all the different connections between the Old Testament and how they're fulfilled in the New Testament. So, can you speak on maybe like the your top five like all moments of where the old is fulfilled in the new? >> That's a really really great question. >> What's up to wrap it up? >> You're not going to believe this. You you are not a plant. We didn't give you that question. But, we have a play today that's based on the road to Emmaus. >> No plan. Yeah, it's the road to Emmaus. >> So, the play that we're putting on, I asked them to do it because what they wanted to do was something about a man. And on the road to Emmaus, what did Jesus say to that man? But, that he revealed to them all in the law and the prophets. That means the entire Old Testament. It's the shorthand for the Old Testament. That refers to him. That is the greatest scripture class that ever existed. That's why their hearts were burning within them. So, trying to go back and find those types. A type tupos in Greek is like a make Christmas cookies and you get the shape of a Christmas tree. That's a tupos. It's like a stamp. Then you're going to see that repeated and fulfilled in the New Testament. So, the old adage is that the New Testament's hidden in the and revealed in the new. So much so that you only understand the New Testament if you get all the types. The way the way God foreshadowed everything by persons, places, and things. Cuz you and I can use words and write a book and then throw a foreshadowing there. But, he uses real events. He is the author of all history. So, this one that Monsignor Wingle is bringing up like the savior. Um but, it it about the grapes. So, in that verdant altar, and we actually had it in the play, >> I said fruit altar. >> But the grapes are important because our Lord goes into the wine press. >> That's true. >> And so they have the the grapes are hanging on a pole. And so the next image there is our Lord hanging on the cross. Right? That's so potent. I think I think for my own one that's been hitting me a lot recently, um I think because of the individual thinking about creation, etc., is that Adam, as you know, was drawn forth from the earth. And the earth at the time, um that clay was virginal in so far as it There's no sin in it. And our Lord, of course, as you know, that really anthropomorphic scene in Genesis where he forms him out of the ground of the earth and breathes life into his nostrils. And then, of course, the woman is brought forth from the side of the man. Why Why is the Why is a rib taken from Adam? I like asking this question cuz men usually answer one way, and women usually answer the other way. Men would answer first. Why is it taken a rib? >> It sounds like >> What's that? Aw, man, your wife's going to be so happy with you. It protects the heart. Because because that's what typically women say, it's close to the heart. Men usually say, "Well, he's got a bunch of them." Right? He's got spare ribs. But but it's it's it fascinates me that, of course, our the woman was pulled forth from the man. And then you have this reversal that takes place in in the incarnation. Now we have a new virginal man, as it were. And inside of the blessed mother, someone is formed out of that clay, out of that virgin clay of her own body. And then you got another type that takes place with the tomb and the womb. You probably all know that that um in the scriptures it says that Joseph of Arimathea went to Pontius Pilate to ask for the body. And he laid the body in what? What kind of tomb? Why did John bother to say the place where he laid you know I laid it in a tomb and it cost him 450. Right? But he never throws out a line that's unimportant. And so this particular detail is meaningful to John. Is this Is this on? >> It does look on. >> Oh, I didn't know it was on. >> I mean you can hear me. >> You're welcome. >> I wasn't on. >> Well, you had it off before I videoed you before. >> Yeah, you were on. >> Okay, what's on? >> Okay. All right, keep going. Virgin. >> So relative to the relative to the tomb he comes forth from the tomb and the stone is what? Stone wasn't removed. Stone gets removed afterwards. Right? The idea behind that, of course, is that he comes forth from the virgin from the blessed mother and she remains a virgin before, during, and after. So too with the tomb. It's a beautiful allusion uh to our Lord recreating everything. But in a total reversal. Yeah. Do you have any illusions you want to talk about or should we go to the questions? >> Um no, we can go to another question. Um that said I don't know what might have been recorded or not. Um somehow I got turned off. I I feel like you're playing tricks on me. And you notice how I didn't care if I interrupted him. Nor does he care if he interrupts me. But he's always the one that handles the technology. So I just I So I didn't even know if it was on or off, I just put it before him and >> It's on now. >> It is. Okay, very good. >> let's go with another one. >> Yeah. So, my question is can you speak to relics in the Catholic faith and the need to have something tangible with such a spiritual I mean, our faith is all spiritual but we still want the relics, something wood, stone, whatever to hang on to a saint to connect. >> Yeah, you know, it's interesting you ask that question because we we just had the petition the bishop to petition Rome to give us relics for the new altar. And so, you can ask for what saints you want but they'll give you who they going to give you. Um but it's a sort of official process when you get a new altar. It's beautiful. You want to start or you want >> Yeah, did you I mean, you could tell them what I've offered you as a term for relic. So, I I I came to discover No, not like my bed sheets or something. No, no. >> Hair clippings. >> Oh, please. No, no, no. Uh I we have a a small little trove of relics at the diocese precisely for these types of occasions. >> it? You bring it? >> I didn't bring it um because I'm retrieving for a parish that had it on loan. And uh it is the cloak a piece of the cloak of Saint Joseph. And so, I called Father Calvin said, "Do you have that?" He's like, "No, I don't." So, I said, "We're going to get that to you so that you can keep it here at the altar." Uh so, it's really very beautiful to consider and think of. All that having been said, I I have uh a profound reverence for relics and uh an intellectual conundrum about relics, but especially when it comes to body parts. So, instinctively, my Catholic instinct kicks in and I just have this sense of holy vibrations coming from something that was part of the life of the person uh who was so illumined by Christ. On the other hand, I think you got to bury the dead. Just bury the dead, you know. And it's so And then I then I go back to okay, what were those Italians thinking when they were running after her head Catherine's head and then her foot and then John the Baptist's arm. I mean, it's it gets a tiny bit gruesome. And yet on the other hand, when I go to cities and towns with these churches that have these major relics, I am so grateful and I'm moved in my faith. So, at an experiential level, I'm with the church. On an intellectual level, I just have to say, "Stop thinking about it too much." So, that's where I am when it comes to the body part relics. Certainly, um it's a lot easier when you consider uh the second class relics like the garb of St. Joseph or uh maybe uh some of the uh clothing of St. Francis of Assisi. Um But, nonetheless, uh they they've proven to be potent in terms of inspiring people in their faith. Uh clearly, they're instruments that are employed by the Holy Spirit to evoke faith. And they're also clearly involved in the works of exorcisms uh and exorcists and what they do in bringing the holy light to shine upon a dark situation. So, all those things speak to the reality of it and my mental reservations just kind of sit in the wayside. Because there's a bigger picture that I can wrap my head around. >> I was surprised. We we speak a lot of Latin here. Historically, we like to learn Latin. We we use the language as it really is supposed to be used and so I was surprised one time when Magistra said to me um to pick up the relics from the counter. And I'm like, both of the counter." And it just means what remains. Get the rest of the stuff. And I I was thinking relics, relics, right? But it's just what remains. And I think that it's such a human a human response that we all have that when our ship capsizes, no matter how it capsizes, we reach for the cargo. Like, "What can I save?" And when we experience death, that's just what we do. This is what Mary Magdalene did the morning of the resurrection. She's talking to this would-be gardener as if she's going to drag his body. And she's unconsolable because his body is gone. Like, at least she had his body. There's something about that kind of connectivity because when when people die, you know how it is. You've all experienced someone dying. I mean, most of you probably have or maybe But I don't They don't live in my heart. I mean, yes, I suppose in some of these things, but I want them to live. I want the person in front of me. I want the actual interaction and the confrontation that happens with persons. And persons are only mediated for us through the body. And so, while we know that they exist, we believe and we hope in their eternal life, I want contact. And so, I think part of the thing that's so wonderfully incarnate about relics is that we don't burn bodies. We don't just get rid of the the the rest. Just get it out of our face. On the contrary, we have a great reverence for it. Because it was the temple of the Holy Spirit. And that body right there, whatever part, piece, hair, nail clipping, whatever the thing is, belongs to the one who stands before God. So, talk about a connectivity. If I have this thing in my hands or I'm referencing this relic, the the person to whom it belongs is beholding the face of God. That's not a small thing. And the church has not just, as Father said, had great approbation for doing this, but but it's just proven to work. That is to say, people take pilgrimages and they go to see relics and they touch their rosaries and their lips and everything else and things happen. God likes to unleash his graces through material signs, because that's what sacraments are, right? We're embodied creatures, and so he he doesn't have to. He can give you grace any way he wants to. But he chooses to give it to us often times through the medium of matter, which is pretty humbling that this stuff can be an instrument of grace. But that's why he chose it. >> I think it's another example where the piety of the faithful leads uh the the bishops of the church. Where I don't know that they would ever have gotten there on their own, but you can't deny the response of the faith. And this goes all the way back to the bones of Peter. So, uh there's a wonderful story about the bones of Peter being discovered during the Second World War when they were excavating an area to prepare for a a pope to be buried there, and they came across the ancient necropolis cemetery uh that sat on that hill of Vatican Hill, which is likely a a Roman family name, which is where the word Vatican comes from, and it's where this necropolis, this old quasi-subterraneal cemetery existed, and they kind of fell through to it um and discovered what they believed to be the site of the bones of the burial of Peter. And I won't go through the whole story, but suffice it to say they they they were discovered not precisely under the location where the graffiti markings indicated. There they found a bunch of dummy bones, like some animals and whatever. Uh they were just sort of a ruse. To the right on this little buttress wall they found the markings that was like graffiti markings indicating Peter. And there they actually found human remains of a man that dated back to that time. It was from the region of Palestine. And the the thing that really the really thing that the thing that really sealed the deal is they could find representations of every part of the body in that collection of bones except for the feet. And Peter was crucified upside down. And they would have lopped them off at the feet. And so it really became conclusive. But it tells me and it tells everybody that going back uh to the time in which these uh bones were remained the remain they they thought about faithful coming and stealing his remains. I mean it goes all the way back to Peter. That they actually had to create a dummy set of bones so they could preserve the real bones in a quiet little place nearby, not too far away, so that when people went there they were actually at the but but the faithful would want to grab one. So I mean this is just going all the way back to St. Peter. >> Yeah, as you said so it's just so instinctive in the Christian. It's just instinctive for us to want to be close to um the bodies of the saints. Oh rats, you're still on. >> Oh, thanks. Despite your best efforts. Next one. >> Let's make this a family affair. >> So I'll so I'll quickly try to lay some context for the question and then there's a two-party question. Recently all all over the internet on on YouTube, there's a lot of influencers and the Shroud of Turin is getting a lot of traffic, which I think is an outpouring of the spirit and a a reawakening. One of the persons pontificating on it stated that it would take a energy ex-excessive of a nuclear blast to imprint that image within two microns on a flaxen linen garment. So, my question is, what's the church's position on it, what's your personal position on it if you can't have that, and also the significance of the Gospels specifically stating where the um death cloths were laid inside the tomb, cuz I find that fascinating as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. I The church is always so skeptical of these things for good reason. She just sits back and waits um for one of two things or both. The best science to be able to articulate what we can know by virtue of human reason, and then all kinds of miracles. Um without that, she can't know that these things are necessarily authentic. Um but in the case of the Shroud of Turin, it has been held to be authentic for an awfully long time. And I've seen the shroud in in Turin myself, and I have to tell you, it's it's frightening. It's just in a in a in a good way. It's just you you I suppose it's the kind of awe that comes over you when you realize that my heavens, this is all true. And you know it's true, but when you encounter things like that, it's like as if the Eucharist, for example, Eucharistic miracles, if I were to see the host bleeding, it it's not that I don't believe that, but it enters into a different realm that it it crosses the line of that which is supernatural and it deposit itself into the natural. So, do I believe it? Absolutely. I think it's it's perfectly consistent with both the gospels and what we know of our of our blessed Lord. I've always been intrigued by the one cloth that John again, you know, when he says things are not throw away lines. This one's wrapped up by itself. I've heard a lot of descriptions of why that's the case, but perhaps the most simple and real one is that um he simply took it off. Like he comes through the the cloth that's wrapped around his body. And then he just he just picks this thing up and and because he's so calm now, because of the strife is over, the battle is done, he bothers to fold it up and put it away. I love that. >> Oh my this is perfect. For your role as a rector, this is you use scripture to get these young men to make their beds. >> their beds. >> This is brilliant. Our Lord, his first thing he did was make his bed. >> up and made his bed. >> Unbelievable. So >> His mama would have been proud. >> How well-mannered. That's actually really beautiful. I could I could see a lot of reflection going on that. Just keeping the right order. I mean, cuz it's not something you would think that maybe the first thing our resident director Lord would do is to fold up the linen, but he did. Well, also perhaps to preserve it so that we could have the Shroud of Turin. >> Yeah, the head head piece is different. >> Yeah. >> The Shroud of Turin and then the what he folded was the head >> The fact though the head piece in particular. >> Yeah, so that's but that exists in Italy still. >> Beautiful. Well, um my thought is this. Although the church rightfully takes very cautious positions with respect to these things, she still holds them in in reverence uh to allow for time to bear witness to their authenticity. And uh I why might the church be cautious? Because the fullness of the gospel is on the line. You don't attach it to some other thing in history that might be proven or called into question. So, you want to make sure that you you make room in the life of the church for these things to bear witness to the fullness of the gospel, but never to attach a weight around the gospel that could cause people to see it being torn down. Um at the at the same time the space that's created to allow these things to bear witness is the fact that the shirt the shroud has been held, as you say, throughout ancient times into the modern time. And it's been held in places of reverence and protection. So, those things tell you that this this the church has created this space for such artifacts and and and holy items. With respect to the science on it, I remember when I was in graduate school at Georgia Tech, uh around I think it was in the '80s, there was a carbon dating on the sample that made a lot of headlines suggesting that it was not dated back to the time of Christ, but it was somewhere in the Middle Ages or I can't remember when. But um I took a a course in X-ray crystallography, and my professor uh was actually a scientist who was asked to review the carbon dating study. And he said to me, "That thing was a piece of garbage essentially." He said, "The sampling they took was on a part of a section that was clearly covered with soot from a fire that had happened in the Middle Ages. Like you you just begin with the sample. You you don't have an authentic sample. The difficulty is that created a cloud of suspicion over the shroud for a number of people cuz you could read the headlines that came out in the '80s. Uh but no one ever really retracted quite in the same way. And to say that actually that study was really debunked uh because of the the sampling location. So, um it was really interesting at the time when I was studying there, I never thought that I would ever repeat that to anybody. Not that it was a secret, but subsequently in time people have asked about that study and my time in the ministry of the priesthood and I've been able to say, "Look, I actually knew a guy who reviewed this who was asked to review the study itself who told me from his lips it was dubious at best." >> I just strikes me that if this happens to our Lord, and we just talked about relics, what's going to happen to your body? And we profess to believe in the resurrection of the body. And whatever you're laid in the tomb with, I'm not laying out nice vestments, I'll steal those. Um just but you're going to go through, right? I mean, whatever happens to him, because he's the firstborn, it's going to happen to us. And that's that's kind of exciting. To think about my body, like, yeah, I I I want this thing to be new. I want it to go pass through walls and and be illuminated and then and agile and things of that nature. I want my back to stop hurting. Um but I want a new body. And that's that's that's our promise. And I think it's why he did it. You know, just have his he he doesn't leave his body behind. And it's always strange when you read those first readings of Eastertide and no one really kind of recognizes him and then they do. Um but the one thing that he wants them to recognize that always tips off that it's him, of course, are the wounds. He leaves those as a manifestation or a marker of he is the one. Which is why when in church art when you want to depict the Antichrist, the Antichrist always looks just like Satan. And how do you know he's not Jesus? I'm sorry. The Antichrist looks like Jesus. But how do you know he's not Jesus? He won't bear any wounds. He won't bear any wounds. >> You know, I was going to actually going to ask you, why do you think that in the gospels so many times he is not presented in a recognizable way or he prevents them from recognizing him? >> My personal My personal belief, um which is not canonical, this is not the church's teaching, um she doesn't really pronounce on this, is that from the beginning he's teaching them to find him. And teaching them to find him in a way that they didn't have him. As St. John says, we once knew him in the flesh, we know him now no longer. I'm talking to you about what I heard with my ears and what I saw with my eyes. I'm talking about the word of life. But now we have him that way no longer. And so why is it the case that the on the road to Emmaus they came to recognize him in the breaking of the bread, which is a phrase that for us sounds kind of trite, but that phrase was only used about the Blessed Eucharist. The breaking of the bread. And so he's training them as it were, this is how you're going to recognize him. You're going to find me now in the sacraments. What with Mary Magdalene, you can't cling to him. You can't have me that way anymore. You're going to have me in a much more profound way. I told you that those who keep my word, I'm going to make my home inside you. That's not located in one place where he can't be in another place. That's that's an interior dwelling. So my personal belief is that he he he shows up as different things and then they sort of as they come to believe, like the road to Damascus, or their faith is manifested, and their desire is manifested, then he he manifests himself to them. >> And that that really is what kind of where I came to, but the way I was thinking about it, more precisely, is resonating with uh the apostles and disciples' experiences in the sense that they had him present. >> Yeah. >> And now they have to grow a muscle of faith. Not faith in him, which they had, but how to live a life and be engaged in such a way that they're carrying on the ministry and the work in the the apostle of Christ um in in a different way. A way that he would be present, but not the way he was. In a certain sense, it's it's almost like they're a little bit handicapped because they're accustomed to going and asking him. >> Yeah. >> Right? >> Or bring people to him. >> Or bringing people to him. Um but now they have to do it a different way. >> Don't you >> And this is training them. >> Yeah, don't you feel that you all feel weird when I mean, I feel sometimes it's my own lack of faith, I suppose, but that there's that little moment when I'm talking to someone and I'm going to bring them to our Lord, but then it's like, all right, Lord, you need me to do something. Is it I can't pretend as if they're hearing you. >> Right. >> pretend as if they're being influenced by your grace. Um I'm handing them over to you, you who preceded my activity by grace, and I know you'll do something, but you There's that little moment of indecision of of insecurity, maybe, that I don't know how the Lord's going to manifest himself to you. I can't make that happen. I just know in faith that he does. >> Mhm. Which is where the apostles and those disciples had to get to. >> Yeah. Uh and so that was I think what we're seeing is sort of the the new learning curve for them. >> Yeah, I would say too. All right. Well, I have some dad advice in honor of St. Joseph for you too. So, I'm a father of three. All under three. Praise God. Thank you. You guys are fathers of hundreds and thousands. But I guess my question is at the end of the day I often times feel overwhelmed with like what prayers or how do I best represent the faith to my family when I've been working all day and you know, they don't see me in the morning, things like that. You're out. You come back home, you help with the duties. You know, there's the rosary, kind of the Um but at the end of the day it's kind of like bring everyone into bed. Prayers before bed. But how do how like what would be one way maybe where you can bring the prayerful presence to your children so they see you or whatever, but you still also start to believe it yourself. >> Did Say that last part. So that you start to >> So start to really like believe it and live it yourself, right? Cuz that's kind of where I'm also struggling is like going through the motions for the faith. >> what I'll I'll I'll jump off. Um I don't know about the rest of you, but when you pray the rosary in particular, it's so easy for the distractions to come in. Uh it's so easy for the many different things to flood your mind. Um I have chosen a path of not trying to swat them away, but rather to use them as a leverage points, to bounce off them, and be open to the possibility that maybe there's something hidden in the distraction. So, say for example, I'm I'm meditating on uh one of the glorious mysteries. It's Easter time. Maybe it's the Ascension of our Lord. And suddenly, what am I going to make for dinner? Just enters into my head cuz I've been really thinking about what I wanted. Um I was like, "Okay, we've all been there." So, now I'm like, "Okay, I'm really tempted. It's amazing how tempted I am to set aside the Ascension of our Lord for food." Um which is uh bespeaks my my my weakness. But instead of trying to swat it away, which is going to consume my quick little 10 Hail Marys, I rather say, "Okay, this thought's here. I'm in the Ascension. What questions could that thought evoke about the Ascension?" Is there food in heaven? He did eat. And then I take that distraction and I jump off of it back into the mystery. I think uh I I would offer advice similarly. Uh and I think it aligns a lot with my uh Mother Teresa's lived contemplative experience uh in serving the poorest of the poor, which is through the things that you're doing, bounce off of them into the mysteries. Um and it's not trying to spiritualize your life in in the way that spirit spiritualizing something has almost um a certain quality whereby you sublimate it. Where you go from something solid and turn it into ethereal and it becomes a lesser. No, rather to stay in the incarnate reality of it. So, if you're dealing with, I don't know, a child uh that you have to correct. Like, okay, I got to I got to correct it. I'm I'm about to lose my temper. All right. God the Father, how did you do this? We crucified your son. You know, and to to bounce in just a little bit to on that issue to bounce into the mystery of something that brings you back in that moment with a different perspective and a different type of engagement of your faith, but not in a way that sublimates it. Not in a way that makes it go from a real thing to really escaping it in some ethereal way, but in a way in which you're engaging it in real time at that moment. And I think those become real pearls um in the course of one's life. Extremely difficult when all of the passions are engaged, when all of the emotions are engaged, when all sorts of dynamics are unfolding. Uh extremely difficult, but I think it is a proper way uh to have a a lived faith. I'm not sure where what you would want to add. >> that's extremely useful and practical. I think we had a podcast on that one time. >> Well, you know, I never remember what I say. >> But but there's one on that as your topic. But maybe more more uh less granular and more more general. Um my father was a really really fine fisherman. Goes back a long way and as a result of that, I had to fish all the time. And I liked fishing, not quite as much as he did, um but he would be in his chair preparing reels and painting baits, and he's a bait maker, too, at 3:00 in the morning. And then he would get me up at like 3:30, 4:00, and he'd say, "They're lapping the shallows. Get out of bed." And I had to get up, and like no kid wants to get up at that hour and then drive and get on the lake and it's cold and whatever else and um but I I was so impressed by his commitment to the sport. And as he got older, he got religious. And the bait making and the real preparation gave way to his prayer time. And he spent the same amount of time early early in the morning, and I knew he was there. Now, my father was a chain smoker since he was 14. And so the first time I came out after being back from seminary, I know he's in his prayer chair in the morning and he's smoking his cigarettes, praying his breviary. And I said, "Dad, are you are you smoking while you're praying?" He goes, "No, no, no, I'm I'm praying while I smoke." But but what what impressed me about that was that I knew he was going to be there every morning. It was just simple commitment. And it it translated for me something that I I have here at the seminary in my own mind. I I've probably told this before, but I I it's like it's like lighting a fire in the morning. Like I got to be the one to get up when it's still cold out and when the kids are in bed and my wife is in bed, so to speak, right? And light the fire. That doesn't need to be a true fire if you're you're going to heat up your house, but that's your job. And if they grow up knowing that dad is the first one up and he's lighting the fire for my family. The second thing I would say because that one proves to them that you love God more than anything else. Not because you're not distracted during this prayer or that prayer, fighting kids here and there or whatever, but but you make a commitment to that, they will know that things are okay cuz my dad loves God. That's the kind of stability you can that gets ingrained in them. It's like epigenetics. It's going to change their DNA. The second thing is they have to know that you love your wife more than you love them. Right? Um if they ever come between you and your wife, you've got a problem. Because what gives them a sense of shelter and protection? That my father, my dad is here for my mom. So that's your vocation. Like you don't have to worry about spending holy hours in the church. We'll We'll take care of that. We'll all take care of it. Um No, he prays. He doesn't pray. I'm not talking about Um That's our job. We take care of the church. Right? You take care of your small church, your little family, which means that And that's the great thing about St. Joseph. He didn't have to go to church to do holy hour. Right? I mean, son of God was right there. And you want to talk to Blessed Mother? We'll talk to her, too. Imagine an evening and you want to pray the ros- the rosary? Sure. Blessed are among women, blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Right? That That's That That domestic church is is yours. Um and you don't have to think about trying to be priestly in our sense, right? But take care of that church. You love God as Joseph did, love the son of God there more than anyone else. And then of course love his wife. >> And if you do that, you'll avoid the spiritual pride that Father Cowart falls into. >> Last one? >> Yeah. Who's up? >> Hi. Just this morning with a group of men we were talking about Christ's words on the cross, Father forgive them for they know not what they do. And we were pondering whether that meant that all of those present were forgiven uh including perhaps Judas because he was part of what had been done. But what do you make of that pronouncement um as as it regards to the uh salvation of the people present? >> So I I think it's the the universal openness of God to to offer mercy for all those who are contrite and open to the truth. Um I think the word the truth was made flesh and hung there on the cross. And um and he's offering mercy to all those who would seek it. I think we have in scripture that you know the mention of the the really on the unforgivable sin is a sin blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which is can be interpreted in in many different ways, but certainly could be understood against the whole notion that there is some some sins that are unforgivable in the sense that uh there are those sins that one is not contrite of. So there are those things that amount to a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit because there's a suggestion um that either it's not needed the forgiveness is not needed uh or it's not powerful enough to do the job. That God can't forgive me. Uh which is a really twisted form of pride. Um God you know God forbid that I need help. God forbid that I need the cross to save me. No, I'll I'm going to make it to heaven because I made it to heaven on no other way. It's just a a horrible form of pride. So um you can either you can fall to the the category of just not accepting your own faults, your own weaknesses or you can go this perverted type of spiritual provide or pride that uh rejects uh that mercy that is extended by Christ by virtue of his intercession with the Father because you don't need the help. Uh either way, it amounts to the same thing. One closes themselves off to the mercy that is being afforded there. So, to get to your question about the specific people who are present, I think really what it is about is the disposition of those individuals. >> It's You mentioned Judas when Our Lord said to Judas, "What you are about to do." Quickly. Judas didn't know what he was doing. I think that I think that in all sin there's a kind of there's certain ignorance, right? There's a certain ignorance built into every sin. Because if we actually knew A, the ramifications of every one of our actions, and we actually knew that some of those ramifications might be eternal damnation, right? We wouldn't do them. We would see that even though I think this is going to be a good thing, it's an apparent good, it's a counterfeit good, I'm going after it believing that. Believing that it's a real one, I should say. Um if I saw all the ends of all of my actions, like that's never going to get me anywhere. It's unlikely we could possibly choose it. So, there is a certain ignorance built into all of us. Not only ignorance, but but the certain And I think that as Monsignor Windle was saying, at that moment in which justice is being paid by the Son, at that moment, right? He didn't He didn't just wipe out the debt. He didn't have to be crucified. There's a beautiful teaching about St. from St. Thomas that that anything Our Lord did was sufficient to save us. It's not that it wasn't enough, it's just it wasn't perfect. And there's a difference. Like he's making the perfect offer, the perfect payment as it were of the debt of sin, the perfect enactment of justice toward his father to give his father what you and I can no longer give him, which is everything. And because he's paying the justice, then he can afford then he can dis- dispense with the mercy. Right? And so that's that moment which this is paid now, forgive them for they don't know what they're doing. Um and that's true. We we honestly don't know what we're doing mostly. I mean how many times have you sinned and you talked yourself into it, you thought it was really going to be a good idea, and then at the as soon as it's over you're like, "What was I thinking?" What was I thinking? Well, you weren't. Not very well anyway. Um so we we kind of try to hold that ignorance there, too. Because I don't want to see. Cuz that means I can't do it if I see too well. That's another problem. >> Because it's willful. >> It's willful. Yeah, sin is in the will. Sin is only in the will. It's not in matter, it's not in the emotions, it's not in the intellect, it's only in the will. >> Uh Frederick, I think there's a hand up over there. >> So, I have a question. So a little earlier we were talking about um pride and people being prideful, like they don't think they can be forgiven. And it just reminded me so I'm just going to give a little context to my question and then ask. So, my question is so like what first what is what if like a sin is like a super super duper bad mortal sin and >> Like bigger than killing God. >> And the the person's like a Christian, so and all they're you know, the bond of confession, all that. But, you know, like to take on the penance I know a priest needs to take on some penance for the penitent in confession. Like that happens. But, um the person's like trying to figure out, okay, I've done my penance, but because the gravity of that mortal sin, like it it like like like like they think they'll end up in purgatory. And then say like I had a situation where I had a conversation with friend, we had an argument. And he's like, "No, it's pride that you know, you don't think like you could be forgiven." I was like, "It's not that I don't think that I can be forgiven. You've just assumed that like like you don't know what I've done. I'm not You're not my priest. I don't confess to you things. And like I I I think you think like he thinks, okay, like scrupulosity or whatever. Like you're being too scrupulous. You're too hard on yourself. Fine. But, like if someone had a bad mortal sin and like what what would be the situation there? >> Sure. >> Um >> Can I just jump in on that? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, so it's an excellent question. It's a question that's born out of experience. Um and from that perspective and from some theological uh insight as well, I can offer you a way of thinking. So, when we go to confession uh we we're looking for us to be reconciled not only with God, uh but with others, and also with ourselves. Because those are really the the three relationships that have been offended. Uh the the reconciling with God happens in such an extraordinary way as Father Cal so beautifully and eloquently stated it uh coming from the cross of a total oblation of the son and is communicated through the words in that sacrament uh through the form and the matter that's being present. Reconciling with others you know, when you walk out of the confessional and harm has been done with others we all know that doesn't fix right away. Um we do do penance and we may even do more things uh to try to cooperate with God's grace to mend uh to maybe glorify those wounds in some way. But the piece that we often forget and I think it's perhaps one of the most challenging is the interior journey of contrition. Because you yourself are both the offender and the offended. You're on a journey of becoming someone slightly different than the person that did the offense. And that is an extremely difficult process to go through. It's growth. It's fraught with the perils of despair and doubt and pain and in a word an agony of contrition. And this is where um when one goes through this process perseverance in faith and trust in mercy become essential and they're not mere uh platitudes. Uh they're a way of surviving. But I think there needs to be a recognition of the fact that you're becoming. That there's a newness to you. That can that will eventually grow to the point that you can look back and say, "That isn't me anymore." It is me, but the part that wanted to do that and did do that is no longer part of me. The parts that were behind it have changed. And in this sense, we can look back when this transformation occurs with a certain separateness. And the contrition is no longer fresh and burning and challenging. And it becomes a glorification of how God has changed me. Um I I like to reference this book by Father Leo Trese called The Faith Explained. It's outstanding. And it's section where it deals with the final things. Um He calls it the resurrection of the dead and life everlasting. He talks about how we are created to give glory to God. And that all people will meet that end. Both the damned and the blessed. He said, "The the damned will give glory to God in spite of themselves. They will bear eternal witness to his justice. He said, "The blessed, however, they will give eternal glory to God by bearing witness to his mercy. And that they could look back on their former selves without this sense of shame any longer because of the newness of who they currently are. And in this sense, the wounds of our life, like Christ's, they're not erased, but they're glorified because they bear eternal witness to his mercy. But the journey of that becoming is fraught with the perils of despair, and the pain of contrition can often feel too difficult to bear. Um that's where you need to uh touch base uh with those who you're getting spiritual guidance from, particularly your priests and maybe confession, but also spiritual friends, friends with whom you can talk about the faith. You don't have to have true confessions with your friends, but you can talk about these challenges in the way in which you had just described. Those things are also extremely important. Um and it's not truly a battle of pride in that sense. It's just really easy to say, "Oh, that's pride. You're not accepting forgiveness." No, it's truly the weight of contrition that is extremely difficult to shoulder. Yeah. >> Go. >> I was just wondering so like should people be doing um like say for with me because I know now that the priest, I didn't always know that the priest was taking on penance in confession for sins like the penance he gives me is only partial. Someone finally explained that. Um but like for when I go for like a mortal sin, should I be taking, depending on like the gravity um of the sin, should I be taking on, you know, extra rosaries or some other form of penance like prayer like not like okay. >> So should is Should should is a funny word here, right? Because you know, I could shoot in myself to death about every single I know it sounds funny, doesn't it? Um but on literally everything I do. I mean I actually I run into this problem in Lent. Right? I kind of set up my parameters and things I'm going to do, but then then I sit there and I go to have a drink which is not violating my parameters for Lent, but I think should I just have water? And then then it's time to eat something. Well, do I really should I just not eat? Should I should I should I should I and at this point it becomes this sort of like endless shame game. Uh as though >> Because you fail at it every time. >> Well, that's true. That's true. That's true. Oh, we'll talk about Father Gober later. I'll talk about Father Gober later. Let's But um No, so it's tricky. I do think I would I would counsel to look for sincerity first. So if I were going to take on something in addition to what a priest has given to me in a confession, I would would not go with impulses, but I would rather be if something had a sincere resonance with me to do something in addition, I think that's where I would start to discern um the the right thing to do. Because there are million things you can do, right? I mean there are million beautiful devotions out there. And I should I feel guilty that I don't have them all? I mean I couldn't go through a day if I tried to accommodate all the devotions that exist out there. No, you you find the ones that resonate in a way and they're made for you. They're meant for you. Um they pick you and you pick them. It's the same thing with the cult of saints. Should you feel guilty that you're drawn toward you know, Saint Philip or Saint Peter or Saint Paul? Or No. You know, they're all there. But you resonate. In a very similar way I think with some of these additional penances that you think of you're like penances are good. Um and it's not just Lent, right? We know that every Friday is a little Lent. Um we we incorporate them into our spiritual lives. But I would I would not go down a path of the cycle of thinking that I just reflected that I can go down myself. Like oh should I really be doing that? Should I be you know, it's like it's a cold morning. Should I really put the heat warmer on? You know, like the my butt warmer. Like it's Lent. Like I just When does it stop? Right? Cuz I This to me it becomes it just becomes neurosis, right? And it's like this is not All right, now I'm getting into true confessions. I'll just leave it there. So I want to turn it over to Father Calvin so he can begin his true confession. >> I think that's the way of letting you know today that is just perfect. I'll leave it there. I think it was very beautifully put. Um because we're not talking about we're not talking about um simple cause and effect relationships that that that don't intersect. What I mean by that is that like you did X and therefore X rolls up. Hey, what if what if what if she won, Johnny? She's won these penances. >> Right. >> amount of time in in purgatory or whatever else it is. It's not The things are linked. It's it's a conversion of the heart. So the penances have to fit the crime. Um as much as you're saying, but you got to you got to go through the weight of all that. Contrition etc. and say that what I'm looking for what God's looking for is is this thing to change. So what helps this thing to change? Period. Because you can be a you can be a >> Record shows he's pointing to his heart. >> Yeah, so you can could on the cross and look at him and say, "Remember me when you're coming in your kingdom." And it's over. And it's over. I mean, he didn't say, "Well, I'd like to bring you in, but it ain't going to be today." >> Yeah. >> And it probably ain't going to be for thousands of years because I know what you did. And that's going to take some time. Normally, it is like that for us. It takes time. He can also heal you completely in a nanosecond if you have contrition. It's just perfect contrition. >> I mean, just note Just note for example our doctrine on indulgences. >> Yeah. >> Right? What's You can have a plenary indulgence, right? So, what is that doing? That's accounting for all the temporal punishment associated with the the consequences of our sin, which is really what you're talking about. And okay, what is it? The act itself that's defined by the church. You say a prayer for the Holy Father. You uh >> have no attachment to >> But there's the I'm going to get there. But is there any other one? Prayer for the Holy Father, the act itself, and then and you go in confession, make a confession. Then the This is the one. This is the juggernaut. No attachment to sin, mortal or venial. What is that telling you? The key to The key is exactly what Father Calvin is saying. It's about your attachment, your heart's attachment. So, the penance is oriented toward changing the heart to becoming that new, that fresh person that you're meant to be. That's where it's oriented. All the other things are so simple. A prayer for the Pope, you know, the act itself, which is usually a very simple act. You can go through a holy door. Uh going to confession, which we regularly do. >> It's because it's it's manifesting that you're not earning this thing. >> But you >> You're doing something simple that which is flooding you with your grace. >> It's the change of your heart. That's the the challenge. >> So, we're going to have to wrap it up. Uh really? You're done. >> Aw, God love her. >> So, did you enjoy this setting, this environment? >> That was great. >> Well, good. And >> Part of this is a reminder of one of the reasons we're doing this is not just to teach the faith. Well, obviously that's fun. But, we're just trying to get people to talk to each other. To do the same thing. To go up on the rooftop, as it were, and have real conversations about real things, and not about the price of gas, and the war in Iran. We have to talk about that, but it's like, talk about eternal values. If you're not having those conversations, you should. Find someone with whom you can talk about real things. As we can climb a lot higher than another person than we can by ourselves. >> And these are genuinely the conversations we have. We are doing nothing in a staged way. Uh, this is We would be having these conversations with or without you in the room. >> You're off of the collars now. >> With That's true. The appearance In fact, I think we had a few where we were miked like that, but um, the the video actually changes that dynamic, but this is genuine, and and this is one of the things we truly want to model, which is to say these these conversations are meant for everybody. And you you can do your own reading, your own education, you can find your own things, and you know, you don't have to have the privilege that we've been afforded by all of you, the church, to study the way that we've studied, so we're very grateful for the have the opportunity to reflect what we've been able to study because of the support of the church, and offer it back in this context, but you have been the beneficiaries first of the divine gift of faith, second of all the formation you've ever had in your lives by way of the church or otherwise, and now an extraordinary amount of available content for you to be able to digest and talk about with your friends. >> Well, before we go, I am looking forward to a new concert right after. In this room, which is what time? >> 2:00 p.m. >> 2:00 p.m. What time is it now? Okay, so you got you got a break. Walk around, take a break, and our own Father Colby Murray, who is um in this house uh as the Bravo class second year of seminary, his mother Jennifer and one of our other seminarians, uh Matthew C. It should be a quartet, and they did not invite me. >> Aha. >> I know that it is right over there, so before you go, please tell Jennifer >> you to do a solo. >> that I should be in the quartet instead of being left out of my own house. >> And So, my before you go is that I've heard, and I I it could be a rumor, but I don't think it is, that uh there were a group of faithful that were trying to make the seven churches on Holy Thursday evening out in the Winston-Salem area. >> Yeah. >> And they thought for sure St. Leo's would be open. >> He said we're at home. >> They they arrived. It was before midnight, and sure enough >> 10:00. >> it was closed. >> At 10:00 he closed it up. >> With all of those young priests and the zeal of Father Go >> He wanted it open. They wanted to keep it open. >> I bet they did. >> Who closed the church down? >> Father Go. >> Why? >> Cuz he wanted to go to bed. >> He wanted to go to bed. >> Our Lord is in the dungeon awaiting his trial. >> Mhm. >> And he said, "No, I could not wait an hour with you." >> I think any anybody who's listening who happens to be a parishioner at St. Leo's in Winston-Salem, or live in that whole live within that I don't know, 10-mi radius, 20-mi radius, you need to petition Father Gober next year to have the church open at least till midnight. Are we all on board with that? All right, there we go. Thanks for listening to this episode of From the Rooftop. For updates about new episodes, special guests, and exclusive deals for From the Rooftop listeners, sign up at rooftoppodcast.com. And remember, for more great ways to deepen your faith, check out all the spiritual resources available at 10books.com. And we'll see you again next time from the rooftop.