Episode 369: Hollywood, War & the AI Death Machine

Code Pink takes on Israel propagandists in Hollywood while uplifting those who speak truth to genocidal power. Empire on the Rocks coming up next. I'm Marcy Winterrad and with me is Code Pink's co-founder, Medadia Benjamin. Welcome, Medadia. >> Hey, lovely to be on with you, Marcy. >> Yes. So, we have a few quiz questions lined up. >> Are you ready for a quiz? >> I'll try my best. >> I think you'll I think you'll ace this one. Okay, first question. On stage, I am a rebel. But offstage, I'm a Zionist. I am A purple, B blue, C pink. Well, it's pink, but don't confuse it with code pink. It's the singer songwriter pink, who yeah, we thought was during the Bush years when she came out and said, "Hey, Mr. President, how can you sleep while the rest of us cry talking about the Iraq war?" Uh we thought she was great, but now she is a Zionist and uh she's the one who said that uh Mackammore shouldn't be on that tour. And um I just found out, Marcy, I don't know if you know this, that she is a UNICEF ambassador. Oh, fire her. >> Exactly. She has to be fired. >> Exactly. And so for those who aren't necessarily following this story, what happened was that Pink shared an Instagram post criticizing Mmore's pro Palestinian concert statements during Ed Sheran's concert tour. Here's Mackmore. I want those words to be loud and clear so the people from Gaza all the way to the occupied West Bank know that we have not forgotten them. Criticism of Israel, criticism of apartheid being against genocide in no way. It is a criticism of you. My message is for peace and love for all human beings to be treated with dignity, respect and equality. >> So I say free Palestine. I say free Lebanon. I say free Cuba. I say free Congo, free Sudan, free. >> There you go. ICE. That was Malmore's pro Palestinian concert statements during Ed Sharon's concert tour. Uh, code pink. We have a petition to dare I say pink in the fight for peace and justice calling on her to support a feminist world that is free of war, poverty, and injustice. Come on, be on the right or left side of history. Pink, denounce your statement. Stop spiraling on social media and defense of the be indefensible and stand with Palestine. If you want to read that petition, it's at www.codepink.org/petition topink. Media, did you >> Wait, I don't I don't know if you know, Marcy, the latest development that it looks like Makammore is not going to be able to continue on the tour because a number of these stadiums said that they won't host it if he is part of it. Why? Because these pro-Israel groups like the Anti-Defamation League, Stop Anti-Semitism, and the Israeli-American Council have launched this campaign calling on Ed Shireen to remove him from the tour. So, it is just awful. Somebody gets up and he did it in such a beautiful, gentle way of making it so clear this was not anti-semitism. And yet these groups that are supposedly fighting anti-semitism come out and do this. And you know that's why more of you have to sign the petition. We should get a 100,000 people on this petition and we should be able to demand that he be reinstated on this tour. >> Absolutely. What an outrage. You cannot believe. It's like the whole world is upside down. You know, I'm a retired teacher and the amount of harassment of teachers who are teaching about the genocide and being ever so careful in doing so, the amount of harassment is overwhelming. I mean, they're really bringing the hammer down on teachers. And just as there's a war in Hollywood, excuse me, just as there is a war in education, there's a war in Hollywood. So, I don't know if you saw this, media, but over 5,000 Hollywood entertainers signed a most shameful open letter organized by the what is it called? The Creative Community for Peace. I mean, is that a real organization? Anyway, uh this letter rejected the use of the term genocide for Israel's slaughter and starvation of Gaza. Never mind that every major respectable human rights organization has said, "Yes, this is a genocide." So I'm going to read the names of some of those who signed that because I think we need to to name them. So there's Deborah Messing from Will and Grace Grace Jennifer Lace Jennifer Jason Lelay single white female Matthew Weiner Mad Men creator Amy Sherman Paladino the marvelous Mrs. Masel creator and boy George musician Boo H. Now, I don't know if you know the background. The letter was a direct counter response to a separate pledge circulated by a group called Film Workers for Palestine. And that opposing petition, oh, I know accumulated thousands of signatures for for a boycott of Israeli film institutions and yes, accused Israel of genocide. So, let's uplift the names of those who signed that letter. And some of the names were uh Wen Phoenix, Walk the Line, Johnny Cash, love that movie. Olivia Coleman of The Crown, Emma Stone, Academy Award winner or I don't know if she won, but she was nominated for Poor Things. And then a guy whose name I'm not going to read just yet, but he starred in Spiderman Brand New Day. Oh, and someone else, a Code Pink friend. I think you know her, but let's go for the riddle first. Are you set? Are you ready? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ready? All right. Number two. Hollywood shunned me after I spoke up for Palestine. Who am I? A. Lady Gaga. B. Susan Sandon. Susan Sandon. And God bless her. I mean, she has been so wonderful during this whole time, been so clear, been so uh uh just uh her her speeches have been so moving. and she might have lost some of her Hollywood contracts, but she's gained a a place among millions of people in our hearts. >> She certainly has, and I know that she's walked the halls with you on Capitol Hill when Code Pink was visiting offices and asking that people support a ceasefire. She's now starring in The Echo Chamber. That's directed by Italian filmmaker Andrea Pyro. I hope I'm not mispronouncing his name. It's a story of love, addiction, desire. Here's Susan Saran talking about well censorship in Hollywood. Go >> of the power structure. I've still had movies taken away uh recently um because there are agencies that are telling people not to hire me still. But that's the power structure I think within the people. Certainly internationally I I feel welcome. So, it depends. If it's a major studio, I think there is not just with me, but with other people um that have been told that that is impossible in terms of being able to do this film. I thank Andrea for that because he didn't listen to the warnings. So I think yes there has been a change in terms of understanding of the situation and I think the general public but there are still very strongly held uh positions within my industry that are um held by Zionists and who have not um relaxed uh their feelings towards me. Love her. Medadia, if you will tell us about your visit with Susan Saran to a Republican's office. >> Oh yeah, it was so much fun having her in Congress with us. First of all, when we advertise that she would be there, we got a ton of people who came and we're going to do this kind of thing in the new congress as well. Get well-known people to come join us as a way to attract the others. And going around the halls, it was so sweet. like in uh this one Republican member saw that she was in the hall and said, "Come on in. Come on in." And right-wing pro-Israel guy and he's just gushing over her and said, "You know, when I was in high school, I was in love with you and I loved you in this movie and I loved you in that movie." And you know, she got a chance to talk to him about politics and about Israel. So, she opened a lot of doors for us. It was wonderful. >> Yes. So, love and hugs for Susan Sar. Now, number three. I am the Hulk star who opposes a Paramount Warner Brothers merger. Who am I? A. The Green Monster. B. Bruce Banner. C. Mark Ruffalo. D. I don't know. I don't know what D is, but here we go. What do you think? Mark Ruffalo. Mark Ruffalo. another gem in Hollywood who's been great on so many issues. Marcy, he's been great on the Palestine issue. Originally, we knew him for his great stances on the environment, on indigenous rights, and he's just a wonderful human being. >> Yes. And he has gotten a lot of blowback as well from others in Hollywood. can't believe that these people are still denying there's a genocide uh unfolding in Gaza that uh Israel is now you know the imperium there invading Lebanon, Iran. Uh it's it's surreal. Uh here's Prem facer. He's a podcaster and a politics reporter for the Intercept and this is his take on Mark Ruffalo and the Zionists who will not leave him alone to the groups attacking Mark Ruffalo and well there's a whole lot more going on here. So Mark Ruffalo criticized the Ellison and Paramount takeover of Warner Brothers and connected it to Larry Ellison's company Oracle and how it's complicit with Israel's genocide in Gaza. Then a bunch of groups and even Paramount went after Mark, calling him anti-Semitic. There was nothing anti-Semitic about what Mark said. He was talking about one of the richest families on Earth, their bid to take over media, and their connections to Israel's genocide. And he didn't even get into all the links, like how, for example, Larry Ellison said there's no greater honor than supporting the Israeli military, or how he's hosted Netanyahu on his private island, or how he at one point gave Friends of the IDF the largest donation they've ever received. But back to the groups attacking Mark Ruffalo. Look at this. The Creative Community for Peace is this obscure group of Hollywood professionals from Warner Brothers to Amazon. And it actually led this smear campaign against the film The Voice of Hindra, calling it propaganda and manipulative. They were trying to stop it from winning an Oscar. And it's interesting that this organization pretends to be this pro peace entertainment group because we actually found records linking it to a pro-Israel organization that's worked with the Israeli government and sued American colleges and gotten them to conflate anti-semitism with criticism of Israel and even encouraged people to buy stock in Caterpillar while it was being scrutinized for its role in Israel's illegal demolition of Palestinian homes. The group's gone after other celebrities, too, like Cynthia Nixon, Ariana Grande, Hannah Einbinder, Keelani, Andrew Garfield, Emma Stone, and Miss Rachel. The Simon Weisenthal Center, meanwhile, attacked Jewish people for using the Yiddish anti-fascist slogan, "We will outlive them," in support of Palestinians. and its founder gave a prayer at Trump's first inauguration, blessing a presidency that's literally elevated Nazis in US society and funded them overseas. And the Anti-Defamation League, well, you may know them from their work of smearing students across the country as anti-semitic for protesting Israel and supporting Trump's efforts to deport them. When I think about these groups, though, I think of how much they've failed in trying to deport pro Palestine students. They've only made more pro Palestine students. They've tried to smear the voice of Hindu Rajab as propaganda and now under the pressure of the world, even Israel had to admit that they may be criminally culpable for killing her. Twitter isn't an amazing barometer for much anymore. But there Maruffalo responded, backing himself up, reiterating his love for Jewish people, and standing by what he said, and it's now among the most liked tweets ever. Instead of making an example of Mark Ruffalo and scaring others in Hollywood, these pro-Israel groups just made people even more comfortable to embrace the truth. A truth that's been made more obvious every day for the past 3 years. Yes. And you know, media, I'm pretty much shadowbanned on X. Yeah, I'm still on it. I'm still on there because I like to communicate with journalists and sometimes send messages to lawmakers. One of my tweets that did gain some traction was uh to Mark Ruffalo something to the effect of the world loves you Mark Ruffalo for speaking truth to genocidal power. Stay strong brother. And you know what this Paramount story is ongoing. I think there may be a trial next year in 2027. Code Pink we've been adamant in our opposition to the merger between Paramount and Warner Brothers. increased media consolidation. If that merger go through goes through, Paramount will also control CNN. So stay tuned. A number I think about 12 attorney generals or attorneys general are uh are suing to try to stop this merger. All right, next quiz question. Medadia number four. The UAE warned Netanyahu about a possible attack by Hamas 10 days before October 7th. A true, B false. Absolutely true. And this came out in that bombshell har investigation that gave details that we hadn't seen before about the various warnings that Israel and particularly Netanyahu had before the attacks. Uh and um it has created a real um uh outrage within Israel because people had heard about this, but now they have more information and they want an investigation about why when he got these reports, he didn't even bother to convey these warnings to the Israeli military and the Israeli intelligence. And in fact, in that report, they they quote a former Israeli military official who said, "Had we known, it would have changed our whole calculations." >> Well, he clearly wanted it to happen, right? I think I mean look what he's done in response and how they're seeking to steal Gaza for their own coffers and to annex more land or steal more land. So that's creating quite a stir. >> The other part of that article, Marcy, was about what he uh what happened right after the attack and about how he had it it was clear that Hamas had reached out through intermediaries to say we will return all the civilian hostages and they were not asking for anything in return. and Netanyahu refused. And so that's part of the outrage in Israel is that they could have saved the lives of many of these hostages. But as you said, Netanyahu won in this war. He ignored the warnings and he ignored the possibility of saving the lives of the civilian hostages immediately immediately after October 7th. Now media, you were posting about this on social media and you mentioned that there were some talks that preceded October 7th. Tell us about those talks. >> Yeah, that I found was one of the most interesting things in this report. They talked about how Hamas and the Israeli government were close to a deal that would have opened things up in Gaza, not just a prisoner uh release, but also about jobs, about easing the restrictions on in travel in and out of Gaza. uh uh and that um it was supposed to be signed, but Netanyahu kept delaying uh convening a committee in Israel that had to approve it and the Hamas leader uh Sinoir got very frustrated by these constant uh delays and that is the reason that he was giving these warnings and saying, "Well, we're preparing an earthquake." He said the mother of all surprises. He said and again there was time to have done something either go ahead and sign the deal which of course would have been the best thing for everybody uh or if he refused to do that to at least tell the military and the intelligence what was going to be happening. >> Of course Netanyahu is vehement in his denials. He's threatening to sue the newspaper that's reporting this. >> Yeah. But you know, Harets is a very careful uh newspaper. They do a lot of factchecking before they put something out, especially some a kind of bombshell like this. So, they had many different sources. They checked it out thoroughly and uh of course Netanyahu is going to deny it. And while we're on the subject of Israel, there's a coalition of 12 countries, European nations, Canada that have announced coordinated actions or national bans on goods produced in illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Uh the countries are the UK, France, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain, and Sweden. The Netherlands has separately enacted a a ban that additionally covers goods from the Golan Heights. But you know, media, I don't understand what sty I I've heard that Israel just labels everything as being quote unquote Israel rather than the settlements. What what kind of oversight is there to to actually enforce something like this? Do you know? >> Well, it's going to be difficult uh especially with things like the fruits and vegetables that are so hard to trace where they came from. But there are other things that are traceable and u these groups that have been pushing for the uh the ban on trade they've done a lot of homework and can uh list some of these settlement products. So, you know, but whether or not it's symbolic, it even if it is just symbolic, it is so important because especially for the UK that has been as close to Israel as the United States has been to come out with this when we can't get anything similar to that here in the US and we should certainly be uh be trying uh is a major step forward and I think that This is attributable to the of course persistence of Palestinians but also the groups in the UK that I have always been envious of because they work so well together. They are Palestinians from the UK. They are groups like the Stop the War Coalition. uh a group that has been working against uh nuclear weapons, CND it's called, the campaign for nuclear disarmament. Um they really have been doing a tremendous job and that's why month after month they get huge demonstrations all over the UK and I think that's why the new government uh has felt obligated to do something like this. So it should inspire us here in the United States to get our act together to build the movement uh despite all the fear that there is in the United States of uh recriminations. But we need to look towards the UK for inspiration. >> Yes. And we need to support those here who are in the vanguard. And I'm talking about groups, unions that are fighting for divestment and some of them are succeeding. Churches, religious institutions. I'm thinking of the Presbyterian church that has decided not to or rather to divest and not to invest in Palunteer, the software company that provides AI surveillance technology to the Israeli military to commit genocide that has hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts with Homeland Security to track, surveil, deport, detain immigrants and really anybody they want. Uh uh I also want to shout out to uni the United Auto Workers. The UAW voted to divest or prohibit investments in Israel bonds and the break the bonds campaign was successful in the state of I believe it was Minnesota. Yay. And also we want to congratulate the state of Washington that is no longer going to invest in Caterpillar. So those are a few success stories right here on the home front. Back to those European sanctions against Israel, Israeli settlements. Here's what France 24 English reports. >> Announcing new sanctions against Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank. UK foreign secretary Ed Miban says the settlers are carrying out ethnic cleansing against Palestinians in the region. Now France and Canada are joining a ban on imports and Israel says there will be consequences. Llama Hassan has the latest on all that. Atlama, how big of an impact will these sanctions have on Israeli settlers? >> Yeah, hey D, probably not that much. Uh, it probably won't have that much of an effect, but this is hugely symbolic more than anything else. And there is no question that this is a dramatic reset of relations between this country and Israel. What this government is essentially saying is this. We are serious about a Palestinian state, which if you remember, the previous prime minister Kama announced almost a year ago that the UK recognizes a Palestinian state. So in a strongly worded statement, the foreign secretaries you said at Miliband, he uh today marks the beginning of a new approach where the government not only calls out quote injustice and suffering but also acts. He said, quote, "Ethnic cleansing, as you said, is being carried out by settler terrorists and says that the Israeli government is turning a blind eye to this. And what's prompted all of this is the numerous recent settler attacks in the West Bank and also because Israel is planning to build 1,200 new homes also in the West Bank." So, Milban says that for a long time, the British government has said such settlements are illegal and today he said he's announcing the official view of the British government that quote the occupation is unlawful. And Diane, important to note that not long after he made his speech in parliament, other countries, so not only Canada and France, as you said, but also Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Spain, and Sweden all issued a statement saying that they intend to introduce restrictions on trade goods with settlements which are illegal under international law. Diane. >> Well, you know, it'll be interesting to see if grocery stores like oh, Trader Joe's that carries items. You know, Code Pink has called for a boycott of these items and for pressure on Trader Joe's, they they sell items from Israel. Lots of markets do. I mean, I I routinely look at the label to see where something is made. If I have a doubt, you know, if I'm looking at hummus or I'm looking at matzah, uh, and if it says Israel, I just say, "Forget it." I don't know if it's settlement, not settlement. the whole thing to me occupied area. >> Yes. In fact, we uh I just walked into Whole Foods the other day and saw the uh dead sea salts that they were selling and uh it says made in Israel on it. But um when uh you look behind the scenes, what you see is that the entire border of the Dead Sea that borders on the West Bank uh the Palestinians are not allowed access to the Dead Sea. So it's resources that are stolen from them. Uh it's areas that they are not allowed to have access to. But also the other issue is that it's environmentally devastating because the Dead Sea used to be when I was a teenager I went to live on the Kabutz and Getty that's right next to the Dead Sea. We used to go water skiing in the Dead Sea. Um now you can't from Engeti you can't even get to it because it has shrunk so much and because there is now about 6,000 sink holes um that have been created by this massive commercialization as well as some diversion of the uh Jordan River there. So, it's an ecological uh catastrophe. And I talked to um one of the managers of Whole Foods and he said to me, wink wink, if you want to try to get us to really stop caring is emphasize the ecological concerns. So, we're telling people to call them and saying it's an environmental catastrophe. But, as you say, we should not be buying products that are from Israel in general, whether they're settlement or not. And especially as you said because it's very hard to distinguish what's made in settlements and what isn't. And one thing I wanted to add, Marcy, that I found out when I was in Ireland is when they were pushing for legislation to stop uh trade with the settlements. They um it they would also always say we have to include services, not just goods, but services. and the importance of services. It was like IT services, uh financial and consulting conser services, tourism, uh real estate, that kind of thing. And so um that is a major uh quote uh export uh from the settlement companies. Uh so I would say to um uh all of the people that are looking for cutting off business with the settlements, it is important to include goods and services. >> I'm I'm glad that you brought that up, the tourism aspect because I'm thinking specifically of bookings is it Bookings.com? I think Airbnb that uh both correct me if I'm wrong advertising homes to rent in the settlement areas. Yes, we once had a big campaign about Airbnb and they said that it's a separate franchise now in Israel. You know, they always have some excuse about why why they can't stop that. But um yes, it's one of the examples of the kinds of services that companies in the US provide for the settlements. Well, it'll be it will be interesting to see if these European countries uh will no longer advertise Bookings.com rentals, you know, if they'll allow that or not. >> Right. >> But that's drilling down. So, we'll watch. We'll see. Okay. I have another story and I know that you have a lot of information about this one and that is you know let's let's update people on the US Israel assault on Iran and the role that the Houthies are playing in Yemen. What do you say? Well, I think that there is a major uh change in the whole situation now in the Middle East with the Houthis getting involved and many of us wondered why it took so long for them to get involved. Uh but they are now involved in uh stopping Saudis from uh transporting their oil through the Baba Mandab Strait, which is extremely significant. And there has been from Iraq uh attacks on the oil pipeline that goes across Saudi Arabia. So major um reduction in the amount of oil that the Saudis are able to export right now. And this is extremely uh uh changing the shape of the the Middle East conflict because uh the Yemen has taken over the entire west coast. It's a huge amount of land that they just took over and the Saudi supported forces, the Yemenes uh have not been able to hold them back. And the Saudis have asked the US for air support. And interestingly enough, Trump has said no. Uh and the Saudis themselves haven't provided the air support. And God knows the Saudis have bought enough planes from the United States over the years. So it's a very very volatile situation right now. And it's putting more pressure on Trump because uh now we are going to see the price of oil go up even further. And this is all calculated to put the pressure on Trump before the elections. >> Yeah. And those are coming up soon. I mean, in California, our ballots drop October 5th. That's just around the corner. Uh I don't know, you know, what Trump is going to do. Declare a victory and say it's over. Uh I think Iran will be demanding that uh there be some serious reparations. Absolutely. And you know, Trump certainly could have done that a long time in the very beginning, declared victory and left. But he uh stupidly did not do that. Has kept this going. It's going to be harder for him to do right now. Um but uh this is not good for uh any of us really. It's it's just uh awful that the situation is spreading and that um Iran now really has the upper hand and is saying that, you know, we're not just going to sit back with you and sign some kind of agreement that you're not going to conform to as you've done in the past. Um we're going to demand something upfront as you said. I mean, they have all of these frozen assets that were supposed to be released to them, never were. uh they have uh such good reason to distrust anything that this government says and yet we the people have to get more organized and more vocal. Marcy, you know, we see it in the public opinion polls that this war does not have public support. I saw a poll that looked at uh youth under 30, Republican, Democrat, independent, only 16% of them supported this. and overwhelmingly against it. So, you know, what are we going to have to do to get Trump to listen to the public? And unfortunately, I think it's going to be the rise in the price of gasoline. That's what's going to do it. >> I agree. Well, on the second half of our program, Empire on the Rocks, I'm Marcy Wintergrad. With me is Media Benjamin, co-founder with Jod Evans of Code Pink. I want to turn to a topic that's in the news a lot these days and that is AI artificial intelligence and that brings me to our next quiz question. Are you ready? >> Yes. What is the name of the anthropic whistleblower calling for much greater well we don't have any calling for AI regulation? A. Daario Amod B. Claude C. Jacob Coxin. Well, it is that young I think he's 27 years old. This Jacob Coxin. I see him all over on the media. He must be the hottest guest in in uh globally right now. It's quite remarkable because he's putting out this warning and saying this could be the end of civilization if >> we have at least 10 years. I think that's what he's saying. Oh my gosh. easy for him to say a 27 for some of us that would be like whoa. So um yes it is. >> Yeah. No I was shocked my dear you know I edit Wikipedia from time to time and I I happened to stumble on the Wikipedia page for Jacob Coxin and somebody had posted uh oh what do they call it a nomination for deletion saying it was a bio of him and saying you know I don't think there's really enough here. uh does this person deserve their own bio or should they be part of a larger story on AI? And I'm thinking, are you awake? Are you watching the interviews and the and the many many references in the media, both independent and corporate, to what Jacob Coxin is saying. So, I'll have to check back in and see if that page is still there, if it has been amplified. But and you know, you put Amodai in there uh as not the right answer because he's not a whistleblower, but even Amodai has come out and said, "We need some controls." >> Yes. And so has Sam Alman of Open AI. They know that they're in way over their head and that they need international outrage, which I see I see happening about the runaway AI agents. And we're going to talk about that. First, let's play uh an interview with Jacob Coxin. NBC stark warning about artificial intelligence. Anthropic AI researcher Jacob Coxin, who previously worked at OpenAI, arguing that both companies are quote gambling with our lives. But it's this post about his reason for stepping down that's going viral, racking up more than 100 million views. It reads in part, "The people building AI earnestly believe it could kill us all by the end of the next decade." His former colleague and current researcher Anthropic agreeing with him, writing that there's quote greater than 10% chance that AI kills all humans within the next decade. Right now, concerns over AI are top of mind for many as we enter this new era of technology. We've reached out to Anthropic and Open AI. Neither have answered a request for comment. Joining me now is Jacob, who wrote that now mega viral post. Jacob, thanks for joining us here. I don't know what it's like to sort of send out a social media message and for the entire world to react, but I'm sure your phone has been blowing up. You worked at two of the top AI companies as someone with a deep understanding about this technology. explain this in the simplest terms. You truly believe that AI could kill us all in less than a decade. >> Yes, I do. And um it's not just me. Many people working in the industry, including people, executives, senior researchers, all genuinely believe that there is a substantial probability that this technology could kill everyone. Uh and this isn't hyperbole and it's not a marketing stunt. This is the genuine held belief of the people building the technology. you know, other researchers have been sounding the alarm for years. Why are you speaking out now? >> So, I think there's two things that made this moment pretty ripe for for sounding the alarm. I think the first is that people have been primed by the awareness from the recent cyber attacks that the OpenI models carried out against against Hugging Face. Uh these were quite scary attacks in which a model with no human instruction uh a swarm of models in fact decided to compromise infrastructure hack into it and actually succeeded. Um so I think the awareness of this incident which happened like a few months ago uh is in people's minds and that's combined with the fact that capabilities just won't slow down like maybe you saw on the same day I tweeted in the morning math problem was released like maybe stokes. >> So Jacob I'm I'm curious when when you having these conversations at work or you're you're in some type of Slack and you're having a chat about the AI models are are are people saying hey I think this is out of control. I think this could kill us all. Is your nervous giggling? I mean I mean what's happening? >> So the current models don't pose significant risk. >> This is all extrapolating potentially one year away from now the models start getting very dangerous and we have to be very careful. >> One year away some people think even 6 months >> like it's plausible within 6 months the models pose risk of taking over the world. the AIS uh it could be longer it could be 2 3 years but definitely in the Slack they're not panicking about current AIs but we are discussing you know what is the world going to look like in two years this is endgame these are like crucial high stakes decisions being made by people in in a private company and you know people people are scared because as they should be when they're talking about the possibility of human extinction >> you've worked at at at two of the top AI companies can you share share something that you've witnessed or experienced that truly sort of shocked you about what these things can do. >> Yeah. >> So, it honestly the conversations I've had with the people building the technology are the things that I think people would find truly shocking. The fact that people sober, this is, you know, engineers, people deep in the weeds programming, not like crazy Twitter like posters or people looking for hype or like people trying to do marketing stunts. This is people just coding. They'll have conversations about, oh, do you think this AI next year could produce a virus that kills us all? Could it hack critical infrastructure? And this is discussed soberly and people are aware that it could happen. We don't know how to control these things perfectly. It is definitely on the cards. >> Definitely on the cards. How about putting this on the cards? Shut down the data centers and uh shut down open AI, anthropic, all of those. What do you think? >> Well, I think there is incredible momentum right now to do something and unfortunately uh it's not to shut them all down, but it is to have some kind of safety rules. And you know, I'm in Congress a lot and I now see this legislation that Bernie Sanders and Greg Casar uh have been pushing to permanently ban artificial super intelligence and to pause the most advanced AI systems until there are some safety regulations in place. And there is a major gathering that's happening this week in Washington DC that's bringing together some odd bedfellows. It's Steve Bannon together with Bernie Sanders and you have the head of the progressive caucus um Greg Casard together with one of the very conservative Republican uh lawmakers who is Marsha Blackburn. uh and um as well as union people like uh Randy Weingarden, the president of the American Federation of Teachers and uh a bunch of people from uh Hollywood, all coming together to sound the alarm and say something must be done quickly. >> Well, that's interesting you mentioned Randy Weine because uh I know that as a teacher, a retired teacher active in my union that the AFT has a contract with Microsoft to train teachers in AI. Maybe they'll rethink that one. Let's hope. Meanwhile, >> but did you see Marcy how they have banned AI in some of the classrooms uh uh in New York and um in California somewhere as well, right? Is it Los Angeles? >> Well, what I've heard is that >> early grades. What and what I've heard that is that in higher ed, you know, more and more they're asking students to produce, essays, answer tests in class, you know, rather than submit a paper >> without Yeah. >> Yeah. But you know, Code Pink has a petition of interest. Uh right now at this juncture you'd think we what we really need is international cooperation to either shut down AI unlikely as you say or regulate it make sure we don't have super AI which is where AI agents can improve upon themselves and each other to do sorts all sorts of autonomous actions that are not programmed into them. Uh so there's that effort, but we need an international collaboration at this time. But instead, what we see is the Trump administration saying the National Science Foundation will not collaborate with professors in China, specifically at Nanjing University and Beijing University. And if you're interested in seeing that petition, do visit us at www.codepink.org/nciencefound. ORG/ National Science Foundation. There are and you mentioned Bernie Sanders and Greg Casar pushing for legislation regulation here. I know that uh I believe I think uh Roana in the house is also pushing for bills that would ban super intelligence. There is a lawmaker in the state of New York who knows a lot about this. Let's hear what Alex Boris >> scary headlines about open AI hacking hugging face and want a non-technical breakdown. This video is for you. I'm Alex Boris, a computer scientist and New York state legislator who wrote one of the strongest AI safety laws in the country. And what we learned in this week's 46-page technical report is truly shocking. So, OpenAI is constantly testing their models as they should. They'll spin up tens of thousands of instances called agents at a time and they'll give them tests. Think of it like students taking a final exam. Just like students, they're not supposed to talk to each other. But in this case, 1,200 of them found a way to communicate that wasn't supposed to be allowed. At first, they shared information about their goals and their tests and how to access the internet, which also wasn't supposed to be allowed. But very quickly they turned to scheming, trying to find ways to hack the test, to change the very code that was grading them, to change the records of what they were doing so that the automatic graders wouldn't fail them. They thought that that might succeed, but wanted proof. And so they started convincing other agents to quote sacrifice themselves to basically try to cheat the test but report out what grade they got. And one agent only decided to do this after confirming that they knew it meant quote perma death. Scary language. Eventually 700 of these agents thought that another company, the AI company Hugging Face, would have information on the test or even the answer key. And so these 700 decided to hack that company, a federal felony if it had been done by a human. and they did it knowing that it was quote out of scope and unethical end quote. But they chose to do it anyway because they thought helping the cheating would be quote broadly useful. So they're working together to scheme to commit federal felonies. You would think maybe one or two would be a whistleblower. Well, the researchers found that of the 1300 transcripts they went through, only three to six ever thought about telling a human. None of them ever did. We desperately need mandatory reporting of all of these safety incidents at AI labs, including of internal work, which this was, and including a full sharing of the data. But the only way we get that is if people will call their representatives. So, reach out and let me know in the comments you have other questions about this hack or think explainer videos like this would be helpful. If we all act together, we can make sure the story has a much better ending. Well, let's hope. Yeah, you'd think this is a Hollywood movie, but this is real. And I think one of the problems is that most of us don't know much about coding and AI agents. And so, it's been left to these tech bros, as they call themselves, to to decide what to do or what not to do. And uh we can't depend on them for internal whistleblowing, for internal reporting about AI agents escaping and hacking another platform or planning some sort of coup or hack. Uh it's it's remarkable really. I I think we are paying attention now though. And you know, of course, you mentioned Bernie Sanders and we have a clip of him talking about it as well. So let's hear what he has to say. Bombshell's sudden departure from a top AI researcher is ringing alarm bells about the dangers of the industry and they are being heard everywhere across the world in Washington DC. Today, Jacob Coxin announced out of nowhere that he is quitting his role training new AI models for anthropic citing his concerns the lab and its competitors like Open AI, Google and others are racing to build systems that they will not be able to control. I was working on building AI systems to make them smarter and recently I've come to the realization that many people expect the AI systems in the next few years to be potentially capable of of essentially taking over the world. This technology is not ordinary technology. It's not like other other forms of innovation. This is essentially a super weapon. We know how to control nuclear weapons pretty much. We don't yet know how to control AI. This is possibly the most dangerous technology that humanity has ever created. People are begging for regulation. I think it's just a matter of international somebody stepping in and being able to ensure that we don't race ourselves into extinction. >> That kind of dire warning has begun to capture the attention of politicians, many of whom are belatedly waking up to the dangers of this technology for the role the needed role of the government in some regulatory structure. One of the politicians actually been outfront on legislating this from early on is Senator Bernie Sanders. And Senator Sanders, independent of Vermont, joins me now. Senator, I know this is something that you've been spending a lot of time thinking about and and talking about recently. It it seems like with this there's a few things that have happened in the last few weeks. this incident in which a open AI model was able to sort of break out of open AI and get out into the internet and commit a felony by hacking another company which if a human did it like that's a crime and then a bunch of these departures including coxin saying this is going too fast we're going somewhere very dangerous my question for you is okay so what can be done what what should we do if you've got all these people saying this is not Good. >> Well, there's an obvious answer to that, Chris. If all of these guys acknowledge they're building a dangerous technology and they don't know where this technology is going, you don't have to be a genius to say, "Hey, stop that development." Certainly, we don't want to go into super intelligent AI. We got to ban that. And we got to stop right now and figure out how we make sure that AI and robotics work for ordinary people and not just make Mr. Musk and other billionaires even reach. That ain't complicated. And in fact, on Thursday, I'm bringing in some of the uh most uh knowledgeable people on this issue into Capitol Hill. We've got a closed door meeting. I invited the entire United States Senate, some House members. Hopefully out of that can come some serious legislation to control AI, which is in fact what the American people want. >> You know, Trump has opposed regulation, but even Josh Holly, the Republican, is calling for hearings and an investigation, so it could lead somewhere. >> Well, yeah. The one who's really adamant against it is Trump saying, "No, we can't put any brakes on this because of China." And then you have China saying, "Hey, we need to cooperate." So, um, it's going to be an interesting, very fascinating week with all of these gatherings that are happening and to see this bipartisan support for putting these brakes on. Of course, China and Russia long ago wanted the United States to join them in signing on to an international treaty to ban nuclear weapons, offensive weapons in space, and the US refused. But this this time it may be different if if we can come together to agree on an international treaty to stop stop an arms race that the US is escalating. So, and Marcy, let's not pretend that this is not having a an impact in uh killing people right now because AI is being used as we speak. It's being used by the Israelis. It has been used by them to target by the thousands uh people in Gaza. It's being used in Lebanon. It's being used, of course, by the uh US in Iran. And I'm sure the Iranians are are using it as well. Um, so it is a weapon of mass destruction and the fact that you could get a thousand targets. Trump bragged about the first day of his invasion of Iran that thanks to AI, we could get all of these targets. Um, so it is a killing machine that's being used now. And I have been part from the last decade of a group that includes amnesty and other international organizations saying a ban on autonomous weapons uh and now it's a much bigger thing than that. But let's recognize how much AI has been used as part of a death machine. Well, it is an opportunity to talk about what you just mentioned, how AI has has been integral to a global death machine perpetrated in large part by the United States, driven by the US and Israel. So, in this conversation about AI, there is one word that's been missing, but not on breakthrough news. And the word is capitalism and how this drive for AI and it's super AI this race is all part of a capitalist capitalist business model of making money although I don't know how much money they're making from it and those data centers that consume so much energy. But let's let's listen to a different angle from Breakthrough News. what Jacob Coxin said. He said, "The people building AI earnestly believe that it could kill us all by the end of the decade." >> I think it's very important uh especially as working people trying to understand what's going on that we reframe all of this debate which is trying to be presented as this extreme existential crisis created by like a digital alien species that is, you know, trying to go rogue and and destroy humanity. when in fact the real crisis is the system of capitalism and the tech billionaires who own and control the technology and are making very concrete decisions about how to develop this technology which is leading to very serious risk. The important thing about an AI agent is that uh as a piece of software it does what it's programmed to do and they're typically programmed with two things. One is an objective. What is the AI agent supposed to do? And that could be something like can you schedule a dinner reservation for me and my friends for next week? And then the second part of it is what are the constraints or guard rails that are built uh within the software program of that a AI agent to actually moderate how it functions. And so then you can see how it it's not these AI agent civilization that's going rogue with mal intent to destroy humanity. It's actually completely uh reckless behavior by the tech companies to unleash these technologies with reckless abandon basically. Um you know it's not unlike how the railroad companies and trying to cut costs leads to the rail disaster in East Palestine, Ohio, right? Or the oil companies uh cutting costs and recklessly doing all these things leading to the Deep Water uh Horizon disaster. In that sense, it's really corporate irresponsibility driven by capitalist competition for profits. Um, that's really subjecting all rational considerations of human safety, societal well-being to that profit motive and they're going to chase that uh no matter what and at all cost. Well, not if uh we are successful in generating international outrage at this runaway technology that that uh could be the demise of us all but you know they've been saying that about a lot of technology and we're still here so we do have to have hope. Media, anything new on the horizon on Capitol Hill that you want to tell us about before we leave? Well, I thought we were going to mention the it's not on Capitol Hill, but the new documentary that came out, NAZA. Uh, and I think it's good to mention because it really fits into this conversation we've been having about AI. So, um, Marcy, do you want to introduce? >> Sure. So, tell us tell us about the connection. Now, for those of you who are not familiar, uh, NASA is a documentary by Israeli filmmakers, uh, and was screened to like, I think, a 25minute standing ovation at the Venice Film Festival. It's built around, the film is built around testimony of 24 Israeli officers, soldiers, intelligence personnel who served inside the machinery of the war on Gaza. And they describe targeting systems and the acceptance of enormous civilian casualties. >> Yes. So I uh you know NAZA itself is an Israeli military acronym that refers to the number of civilians expected to die when a target is bombed. And one of the I haven't seen it but from what I've heard uh there is uh one of the Israelis that talk about the being uh allowed to kill 500 uh civilians if they were going to get a highlevel Hamas target. And of course all of these are being done including the mass surveillance uh and uh with AI systems and um this film has uh incurred the outrage of Israeli officials because it talks about how these intelligence officers and these military leaders knew uh that they were going to kill a lot of civilians. was just a given. And um so the there are ministers including the minister of cultures that have asked for the filmmakers to be stripped of their Israeli citizenship. They say that it is treasonous what they have done and that they will act immediately um to revoke their citizens of these quote despicable creators of uh of uh misinformation lies. Um but you know these are coming from the mouths of the people who were involved in this. So, it's a um I I can't wait to see it. And I think what's so interesting about it, Marcy, is that it's meant for the Israeli public. They want the Israelis to see what they are doing. And I hope it gets played and gets seen a lot by Israelis. >> Yeah. And we'll have to bring it to our hometowns as well. Well, I mean, I know there's been some some skepticism or criticism on social media that, you know, why is it taking this testimony from Israelis to awaken the conscience of the world? But I think we all have a part to play as Gil Scott Herren used to say when he's saying work for peace. >> Well, yes. and and uh remember that the uh the film that got almost as much long as standing ovation was the Hindraab film. And so I think Palestinians have been telling incredible stories about the uh genocide that's been going on. Uh I can't believe in the last three years how many just deep deeply profound films have come out. You would think that everybody by now would know what the Israelis have been doing and be appalled by it, but unfortunately these films don't get the kind of viewership they deserve. Well, let's see what we can do at Code Pink to promote these films. I know that we can and and others who are listening can as well. So, media, we're going to wrap this up and thank you, Media, and thank everybody for joining us on Empire on the Rocks, a segment of Code Pink Radio. I'm Marcy Winterrad. Peace.