Ep 870 : Dylan LeBlanc / Singer Songwriter #singersongwriter

All right, welcome to another episode of Let There Be Talk. We got a fantastic guest. Introduce yourself, my friend. >> Uh, my name is Dylan Leblau. >> How are you, buddy? >> I'm good. How are you? >> I'm good. I'm uh it's weird weather today. It's like looks like it's going to rain, but I don't know. You know, >> rain in LA. That's a trip. >> Are you in San Diego? >> I am. Yeah. I just made the made the drive down here and sitting in the hotel parking lot. Just getting some fresh air. Now, I uh went to see you play on Thursday night and I told you that I found you from Kurt Vile's uh Sirius XM channel, which is amazing, you know, because it's it's so you got to find music someway, you know? So to be able to uh hear somebody that you love like Kurt Vile and then he goes here's some [ __ ] I'm digging and I knew some of it but then when you don't know some of it you search it out. So I screenshotted your record which was Coyote and I fell in love with it right away and then all a sudden you're in town like the next day I'm like oh [ __ ] he's going to be here. So, I see Kurt Vile on Wednesday, I see you on Thursday, and it was like, "Oh, I'm good on on the live music this year." >> Yeah, that's that's a trip that happened that way that, you know, you just discovered it and then you looked and I was going to be there. I find that a lot of times people don't even know I'm going to be in town because people don't promote. And I I'm remember that that that the ticket sales to the LA gig were so bad last week that I ran like a huge ad on Meta. I spent like 500 bucks and I hear that a lot. But, you know, it's really cool to know that Pandora and stations like that are playing my stuff, you know, and like especially Kurt Vile because I'm such a big fan of his and, you know, I met him a long time ago. We were on the same group of labels when I started in 2010. And I remember going to the Beggars Group office in New York City because he was on Matador and I was on Rough Trade, but they were all in the same office. And I remember they were like the guy for that worked for Matador also sort of helped with the rough trade stuff. He handed me Smoke Ring from my Halo and I listened to that record dude until the grooves wore out of it. >> Yeah. >> It was such a great record. >> Well, it's it's really interesting. You know, I I do a bit you came to see me do comedy, >> but and I said, "You got to get rid of people from your past when they just don't evolve, you know, and there's like a guy that'll be like, there's no good music anymore." And I find that there's so much good music now that I have to really make these cataloges so I don't forget them because I'm getting bombarded with killer music. >> Yeah. I'll hear things every once in a while that just come out of nowhere and like I'll look and see like just cuz I'm curious. I'm like, man, I wonder if anybody knows about these people. Sometimes they only have like 2,000 listeners on Spotify or whatever, but I don't care. I mean, I I just like great songwriting. You know what, man? The older I get, I just really admire people who put in the time to become excellent at something. It's it's so that's the rare part about the entertainment business. Uh, it's not that there's not a lot of talented people out there who have the capability because I I I'm kind of one of those people that thinks anyone could do anything if they put their mind to it, but when you have like a natural talent, then you have the work ethic to put all the time to really get good at your craft. I just really really respect that. And you can tell when people like Kurt Vile, the guy just puts out records at a at an incredible volume and you can just tell he's eaten alive with with music and like he loves it and I I respect him as an artist and so many others too. But but Kurt for sure. >> Yeah. It's it's the same in the comedy world, you know, cuz you got these people that maybe had some video go viral and they're only like two years in and they haven't really dug in and do, you know, do the work. So when some work has to happen, they're like, "Ah, this is [ __ ] man." You know, it's like I think that like you said, as you get older, you really can sniff [ __ ] And it it it's really easy as you get older. And it's and it's also really like you said, I mean, I didn't find Lucinda Williams till Carheels on a Gravel Road, you know, and holy [ __ ] she's deep into her career on that record and it's one of the greatest records ever made. So, >> was that like 93 that came out? >> I can't even remember. I think it's like, >> you know, I got to tour with her with one of the very first tours I ever did was with opening for Lucinda Williams and on my birthday, we played at the House of Blues in Boston, right across from, you know, the Red Sox field. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They closed that. I played that place. Woo! >> Man, dude, I'm telling you right now, I I didn't really know her that well. And uh but you know she's a legend cuz she's from Louisiana and so am I, >> right? >> And and you know, but I wasn't necessarily like a diehard fan, you know what I mean? >> I was way into like My Morning Jacket and Wilco and like you know that was like the thing happening when I was a teenager, >> right? Uh, and the thing I loved about My Morning Jacket was like in their earlier records, there was this there was this little tiny bit of like a classic country element to it in Jim's voice that I really loved uh because it was so familiar to me and so bred into my DNA because that's where I'm from. But like anyway, I'm getting off topic, but when I went on the road with Lucinda, she has this song called Jackson. >> Oh yeah, I love it. Yeah. And it's like all the way to Jackson. I don't think I'll miss you much. And I remember being a kid and my moving in with my dad and we had to drive from Shreveport to Muscle Scholes where he moved to become a a published writer at Fame Recording Studios when he got his job there. And my sister and I got separated and my life sort of got turned around. And uh and I remember missing my mother and missing everybody. And I and I remember having this really weird and she called me up. She said, "If you wanted to sing any song with me on your birthday tonight," because it was my birthday. It was my 21st birthday. And what would it be? And I said, "Jackson." And uh she said, "You got it." And she had a Teleer and a Princeton reverb on the amp just sitting there looking at me. And I said, "I'm about to I'm about to [ __ ] deliver. Like, I'm about to get to play with Lucinda." But dude, >> I picked up the Princeton and I had her vocal just streaming in my face through the monitor. >> And dude, I could not and I'm I'm starting to get choked up just thinking about it, but I could not hold back the tears. And she just looks at you with this heartbroken face and just singing with this heartbroken voice. And I'm just looking back at her and she can tell that I'm heartbroken. And we just had this [ __ ] weird like surreal moment where I just felt like there was no one else in the world anywhere on the planet who just we we had barely spoken two words to each other, but I just like you understand who I am and I understand exactly who you are, you know, and it was just so amazing. How many dates did you do with her? >> A lot. We did a month worth of dates. And the first half was my favorite because it was just her and her guitar. And something about that. She had this old beat up J45 with a Gibson J45 with a hole in the back of it. >> And it was just her and you know how she is. She's very shy and like very um self-conscious a little bit >> and she would every night she would have a a meltdown on stage and she'd cry and her fans love her so much and uh they were like we love you Lou you know just she just had this incredible outpouring of love and support from people man and I love that and her voice was just I just became a massive Lucinda Williams fan and believer after being on the road with her and she treated me really well. She didn't have to and she did. It's uh it's interesting to hear you talk as a teenager hearing Alt Country, you know, because it hit me at a time in my life where I had played in one band, but I was just writing lyrics and melodies. And I was like, I've got to write my own songs fully. So I went on my own and took a year to learn guitar. I got this videotape, learn guitar and the VCR and locked myself in a rehearsal studio and learned how to play guitar. And at that same time, Wilco, the JHawks, and uh Sunvault, Lucinda, all of that started to really uh hit, you know, and even before that with uh some tones of the Wall Flowers and Counting Crows and even Blind Melon, I started to feel like, oh, there's this killer songwriting going on, you you know, and I I just fell in love with this music. I was obsessed with it, especially Tweety. It was just nuts. That Being There, it was killer. >> That was a great record. >> Oh my god. Everybody talks about stuff after that. But Being There is just crazy, you know? Jay Bennett in the band and and uh man, I just fell in love with it. So you're a teenager and you fall in love with it also. >> Yeah. It's funny. I didn't know much about music until I moved to Muscle Scholes. I mean, I knew about music, but in Shreveport, you know, I came from a very humble background. My mom, you know, cleaned houses for a living. We didn't have a lot of money for like CDs and records, and if I wanted something, I was going to have to like work, you know, to get it. And I did, you know, but so I listened to the radio and in Shreveport, you know, they only played like whatever was pop, you know, the happening thing at the time. And they certainly weren't playing Wilco and like, you know, stuff like that. Or they weren't even really playing Lucinda except for that Mary Chapen Carpenter hit that she had uh Passionate Kisses, I think is what it was called. But um and I remember Mary Chave Carpenters's version of that, but I had no clue it was Lucinda's song, you know. But anyway, um so when I moved to Muscle Scholes, there was a guy that was the staff engineer at Fame and I hung out there every day. I would go to middle school and I would the the the my dad was working all the time in the studio just >> just a songwriter. Right. >> Right. But and a session player. He he played a lot on his demos, other people's demos or their records. Uh so he was constantly in there and while he was working, you know, it was like it was just don't bother me, you know, like I'm working, you know, and sometimes we we'd be there till 1 in the morning, you know, on a school night, you know, but Rebecca Patton was the uh secretary. She'd pick me up from school, take me to Wendy's, get me a hamburger, put it on my dad's Red Balance. I had like there was like a red balance sheet and it was like Dylan's burger money, you know, and it was cool, man. She was so sweet and she'd help me with my homework and she was kind of hot, too. >> Yeah, >> if I'm being totally honest. But uh yeah, I liked her, man. Everything about her. But anyway, she uh nice lady. And anyway, I forgot where I was going with that, but yeah, so I this guy Ben worked there and I was about 12 or 13 somewhere around there and uh he was like, "Man, you're listening to Cuz I was a huge Chili Peppers fan." >> Oh, yeah. Chili Peppers are great, >> you know, but do you have you ever heard of uh you know these people and like he had this like drive with every cool record, Leonard Cohen, George Harris and All Things Must Pass, all the entire Bruce Springsteen catalog and um like everything Neil Young ever did like and it was like from A to Z just incredible artists like you know and Andrew bird, you know, you had that stuff on there and then he had Warren Zevon, you know, literally from A to Z. And it was so cool because I just uploaded it, right? I stole my uh dad's girlfriend's laptop and I just stuck that thing in there and I downloaded everything and I I just went nuts. It was like this encyclopedia of music and uh and I started becoming fans of like it took me about two years to get through the whole thing because I would get on something and then I'd listen to that for like ever man. I would just go wow this is so I didn't know I didn't know that there was even a space for what I liked because I was already writing songs by that time but I didn't know there was a space for what I was doing in the world that wasn't commercial. I thought you had to go to like MCA or RCA or you know and I'm seeing these names like um Siren and or Siren not Siren Sire and uh you know Rree and and uh you know Subpop and Rough Trade and you know all these labels and I was like who's doing this? And this was like before the internet was like really huge and you could just find anything out and if you could I didn't know how to do it. Let's just put it that way. Maybe you could, but I was extremely inept. And uh but anyway, I just went down a crazy rabbit hole and I got a lot of education out of that place. And then of course, Spooner Oldm and all the old cats like the the Swampers were around still. A lot of them have passed since. It's really sad to see them go because they were so great. But Donnie Fritz was another guy who he played with Kristofferson and I remember hanging with him and what he was talking on the phone to John Prime. He let me say hey to him >> and uh it was just he was a cool guy. He always made time for me man because he could tell I like music a lot and I was serious about it and uh they were nice to me and just some kid sitting in the lobby with my guitar, you know, and then they were cool. >> I love all those guys. watching you and also uh hearing the Coyote record. I know you got you got like that's your fifth record, right? The Coyote record. >> Yeah. >> Uh I'm looking forward to starting from the beginning. But watching, you know, there's every 10 years or so, a kind of a reverbby drenched type of vocal comes out where it's either Hope Sandival or, you know, you go back to like Neil Young on the Beach, one of the greatest records ever made. >> Cat, it's it's it's it's haunting. But my morning jacket and now you it's really a hard thing to do. Uh because the vocal is drenched. So, you know, it's so it's a thing and when somebody does it right like you you do, I'm like this is so great. It's like hypnotic, you know? It's was that always the sound that you wanted to have? >> It's it's always on the the records that I love the most like the Marvin Gay. I mean, I know it's you know, everybody loves this record, but it's such a great record and that's why it's uh you know the uh uh the big one uh What's Going On? >> What's Going On. Yeah, >> man. That's drenched in verb. a lot of Nina Simone's recordings, like her vocal just had that chamber reverb, like a natural, it was either chamber or spring back in the day because you had to they had to literally build the reverb tank, you know, to make it happen. And so, I like that the way that sounds, it just has a classic quality to it that I like. >> Um, that's the same thing. That's one of the reasons why I love like strings and stuff like that. When I listen to like Herbert Rybine or somebody like that who wrote a lot of that Sinatra stuff, uh there's a lot of verb on strings that I I love that make them just sound so big and cinematic and like magical and transports you to another place. And uh so yeah, that was such a big deal to me, like just having that element of uh the classic timeless, you know, uh thing that that that reverb puts on a vocal. And it's not always good. And there's definitely a point where it's like, hey, man, that's too much damn reverb, you know, because you can't >> you can't hear the the thing, but there's a sweet spot there. >> Yeah. >> And uh and I just loved records that that had that on there. And uh and I still do. I mean like not all of my recordings if you go back they're not all they even coyote doesn't really have that much verb on it. Um certainly in a live setting it probably it probably does >> right >> just to make give the vocal more of a dynamic and make it sound broader. Um and like the room is not dead you know just sort of brings a liveless to it. But yeah, that's that's why, you know, and and you're right, there are so many bands over the years that that use the technique of of reverb, but it can be it can be overdone, you know, >> Wicked Game. >> I certainly have overdone at times. >> Wicked Games, the king of the reverb. I love it, you know. >> Oh, yeah. Chris Isaac, come on. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what what a [ __ ] monster tune. And like I said, my morning jacket, uh, I think he used like a he made one out of a like a silo, like a [ __ ] seed silo or something. It's mega. >> Yeah, I heard that. That's I heard that. I don't I don't know if that's actually true, but >> Right. >> But man, that's probably true. I mean, I know they made It Still Moves. I think that that record came out in ' 03. >> Yeah, >> I remember cuz I remember where I was when I heard it >> and I was at my friend Daniel. Daniel's house. We were high school buddies and uh dude I get uh not No, that was No, maybe I'm thinking of uh Z actually, but um Oh, no. No, it was Yeah, one Big Holiday came on and I was like, whoa, dude. Who is this? >> And then they had a song called Easy Morning Rebel on that record that I was like, whoa. Because it has that like you bring the and it was had a little honky tonk in it. >> Yeah. I was like, "Man, this is amazing." Like, who the [ __ ] is this? This is great. >> Yeah. >> So, I just fell in love with their especially those first three albums to this day. They're my favorite. I love their other stuff, too. But, but those first three were like, "Wow, there was something like magical and they were just so good live. Everything about it." >> So, you're hanging out and your dad's working. At what point do you think, you know what, I want to play music and I can write songs. Do you get a guitar first? How does this happen? >> You know, uh, I wasn't good at many other things. Um, I wasn't interested in sports. I played baseball for one season. Uh, everybody was good. And then when I would get up to bat, people would be like, "Oh, fuck." you know, because they knew that I was about to strike out and I literally didn't hit one ball the entire season. And I remember Coach Ford, wherever you are, Coach Ford, I feel bad for you, brother. I know I let you down. I still feel bad about it to this day. But, uh, his son was like the star player on the team, uh, Josh Ford. And he was a really good player. And, uh, kid named LJ Campbell was good. And like they would just they would look at me like, "Dude, why are you here?" And they had to like, you know, let me do it. But I remember I accidentally bunted and forgot to run. I didn't mean to bunt it. The the dude threw it and it hit the bat and landed like, you know, in the in the end zone or whatever. >> Shows how much I know about sports. >> But uh so they were like, "Run, motherfucker." You know, and I'm just standing there >> and uh I was like, "Well, and it's take off." You know, it didn't make it to first base. you know, they they already got the ball. They're like, "You idiot." But so I did that. Wasn't good at that. Uh then I played it. I could play guitar. I started playing when I was seven. And I brought it to school one day. Um cuz my principal, you know, I had a tough home life growing up. And my my had a nice principal who was a hard ass. Coach Noah was his name. I love the guy. Actually looking back now, he was actually an incredible person. Uh, but he loved music and he would call me to his office and I was I was a troubled kid. I was getting in trouble a lot and they were they were doing everything they could to help me, you know, try to get my [ __ ] together and and he would call me to his office and I was thinking, "Oh shit." One day he calls me, I had my guitar. I guess he saw me come in with it and he played guitar too and or he was learning and he said, you know, he was looking real stern. He said, "Sit down, son." I said, "Okay, like what did I do this time?" You know, and he was like, "No, you got that guitar, you know, in your hand and I'm I'm trying to figure this damn song out and I want you to help me." So, and I was like, "Okay." You know, I got real perked up. And then from there on out, just every once in a while, he would call me uh out of class to come play guitar with him in his office. And and I started doing a little bit better. My behavior was a little bit better. Um I wasn't like terrible, you know. I just >> Right. >> You know, you know how it is. Kids are kids are [ __ ] you know. And if you wear the same shirt, >> you know, every day because you don't have another shirt to wear, >> you're poor. Look at this before. >> Yeah. Or if you if your hair is a little bit greasy or anything like that, you know. And so >> I mean, >> it's funny because now I wear the same clothes all week, you know. >> Yeah, man. I mean, I still do that to be honest. I've been wearing this shirt for a few days, but >> Yeah. Yeah. I love it. >> But, you know, it's just like one of those things. And uh, you know, I just couldn't take it. I I hated being humiliated. I I hated that feeling when I was a kid. And I felt humiliated all the time. Just uh, you know, I just didn't feel good. And uh, and I would get mad as [ __ ] And and I would, you know, I I came from Shreveport, man. You know, we we were scrappers. You know, if you had a problem, you just dukeed it the [ __ ] out in the street. And in Muscle Scholes, it was a little more tame than that. People, they use their words a bit more. And I had to like adjust to that which coach Noah very readily and and availably helped me do uh with his uh stern discipline. So um so I learned you know but he was also very fair and looking back now I kind of hated him and loved him at the same time. Do do you know what I mean? >> Oh yeah. And uh cuz he was right, you know, like he was like, "Man, if you're going to get along in this world, you you you know, you first of all, you can't hit people, you know what I mean?" Like we don't do that, you know, like he's like, "You can. I mean, you absolutely can, but you know, there's there's going to be consequences, you know." And uh I was like, he was like, "Yeah, I know the guy deserved it, but you know, like it's not going to do anything." And yes, you have to go to inschool suspension. I was always trying to give him out of out of school suspension, but it was in school every time. I mean, he knew that that one would get me. And Daniel Elk, a Marine, was the dude that was in the the leader of the ISS in school suspension office. And that dude was a serious hard ass. >> And you you did like that was they could they had corporal punishment in Alabama. They still do. >> So they could like take a paddle to your ass. >> Wow. >> Yeah. After your ass, dude. >> Breakfast Club style, you know? >> Oh man. It's old school, bro. Where I'm from. like that you you can absolutely legally get your ass beat. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> It's insane. >> And uh crazy. >> [ __ ] nuts. So, you start on guitar and then at what point do you start writing songs, >> man? I started playing when I was seven. Um, and uh, played learned the basic chords. You know, my dad showed me uh, A, E, and D. And the first song I learned, I remember, was Wild Thing by the Trogs. Um, and I started writing songs because of girls >> because I wanted I just, you know, >> I I I think that's true. You know, it is a cliche, but it's like, man, the the only reason I started it was because I wanted to impress girls, you know, that's it. And uh and I wanted to write things that they thought, you know, were good. And, you know, if you see a girl smiling in the audience, uh even to this day, if there's like a woman in the audience and she's smiling, like, makes me want to play better. Makes me want to do a better job. And it's funny because I don't write love songs. Like my songs are about outlaw [ __ ] and stuff like that. But every once in a while when I started out there and there was this girl named Katherine Dupont that I was just head over heels for and I thought if I could just write her a song. Of course, she listened to rap and and hip-hop, so she didn't even like the kind of music that I wrote, but I was like, maybe I can do it, you know? And so, I just wanted to impress women, man. And I thought if I become good, but then I it came it became way more than that. And I started hanging out with like actual songwriters and they were like, you know, if you're going to get serious about this, this needs to be something that you you do a lot. You need to write. First thing I'm going to tell you is you need to get better at that guitar. You need to get excellent at that and get extremely well informed on on the art of playing so that you can write better songs. And I got told that and then I got told I remember I wrote half a song and I started to play it for Donnie Donnie Fritz and he and he I think he said something along the lines of who is it finished? I don't want to hear half a song. Go finish it. play me a whole song, you know? He's like, "Don't ever play anybody half of a song." You know what I mean? I was like, "Damn, okay." And so I went and started finishing songs, whether they were worth a damn or not, or whether I had like a complete thought out thing or not. I would I would try to sit there and and finish it and edit it, you know, over time sometimes. And I still I still do it that way. And then I started learning that like if I had a title that a title was like the blueprint to the entire song. So now like in my older age and I'm such a simple person. I don't believe that music is complicated. You know it's not we're not trying to split the atom. I get cracked up when songwriters start, you know, getting too philosophical about I'm like, dude, you just put words on a [ __ ] piece of paper. You're not like doing anything that [ __ ] special. you know be like I wrote the words in such a way you know it's like no okay but anyway so you know with a title you can you can sort of inform the whole song and I got told that as well I got taught that my dad always said that and he was a writer he said man you need a title dude I don't know how anyone could write a a song and you know I come from the country music background so writing with meaning. It's the opposite of like Paul McCartney or Jeff Tweety, you know, sometimes I don't know what their songs are about and the words they mean something to them, but they don't like necessarily I don't know what they mean. Doesn't mean the song's any worse or like it doesn't mean it's less probably even better honestly in in a lot of ways. But I I couldn't do it that way and I didn't come from that school. And so like I came from like because of my teachers and the people who were around that were willing to show me stuff which is country you know all country songs and blues and like the delta you know they were singing about what was going on around them and everything has a very clear picture in your head of what's going on. And so I learned that way you know and I felt like that's hard. That's really a hard thing to do. And if you get good at that, Paul Simon, master at it, uh the song America, uh is a in a perfect example. That song doesn't rhyme, not even one. Uh if you go back and listen to it, there's no not one rhyme in that song, but it goes perfectly and it reads like a like a short story. >> It's just it's probably one of the best pieces of literature in music that I've ever studied. and I studied him a lot as a writer because I just think he's he is one of the best and I I don't you know I know he's in the conversation but he's not in the conversation for me enough. You hear about Bob Dylan um I I you know it's saying I feel that way about Leonard Cohen as well like you he he was so great at words and I think the older I get words are way more important to me. I know they're they're not to a lot of people, but uh but the words are like if someone who has all three, they got the melody, they got the lyrics, and they got this like the style and the guitar, the whole thing. Um that's such a badass combination. And like if somebody has all three, it's that's rare, you know, that I hear it in this day and age. And it's like whoa. like Paul Paul Simon had all three, you know, Christopherson eh he wasn't that great of a guitar player or singer, but he made up for it and telling a great story and I'll reference to Beat the Devil. I don't know if you've ever heard that song, but [ __ ] amazing lyrics. >> U my favorite line. Go ahead. I'm sorry. I I saw him uh with the highway men and you know I know that 50% of the people in there were probably like why is he here and then when you're watching him you're going like oh well this guy is the unsung hero you know this guy you're looking at underrated right in front of your face cuz you're he's up there with the highway men you know and you're going >> well there was a reason for that. I mean, the guy was incredible. >> One of the best lines I've ever heard uh in my life and and it just hit me like a ton of bricks cuz I was I was just a a kid and I felt lonely and all that. And but he said, "Nothing stood behind me but my shadow on the floor." And I was like, "Fuck, nothing stood behind me but my shadow on the floor. God damn, do I know what that means. I have been there. I felt that. And it if you have the power to do that in that poetic of a way but that direct and that meaningful, I think that's so like incredible. When nothing stood behind me but my shadow on the floor, I was like, "Yeah, uh-huh. I get that, dude. I know what you mean." >> And it hit me. Big fan of his, man. >> Let's talk a little bit about uh Atto Records. Um >> Oh, yeah. ATO. >> Attoto. Yeah. They just go by attoto or is it atto? It's atto. >> I've heard it said both ways. >> Yeah. >> I always said atto, but you might be right and I might be wrong. >> I don't know because there was never any period. So I was always like, is it atto? But >> I think you're right. >> This [ __ ] label is kind of like the, you know, subpop of now. I mean, the the risks and the amazing artists that they have on there, it's crazy, you know. >> Absolutely. >> How did you get involved with them? >> I don't know. I was in New York. Uh I played a show at the Mercury Lounge. >> Oh, yeah. >> Uh in the Lower East Side, I remember. Uh, and then Salter, uh, the ANR guy that's been there for I mean, I think he's been there since it started. I'm pretty sure he's a cool guy. uh he was there and I played with my band and we played a lot of the songs from my early career, but we like rocked them out like we just worked it up in more of a rock and roll, more of an entertaining uh version for the audience because, you know, when I'm on the road, you know, it's cool if you play your songs, but it's so mellow the records that I feel like in my experience, and this just could be in my head, And I've done it both ways. Like the audience is like bored if it's too mellow. Uh depends on how well done it is though. I will say that I if you got the right players on stage, like real badass people, you know, like it can be extremely incredible. But um but like for instance, like our show, we were just three of us and I was like, let's let's rock this up a man. Let's make it entertaining for people to watch because that's our job, right? We're up there to like entertain people. That's the show part of like the business, you know, and so I'm I'm kind of old school in that way of thinking. But we did it and John was there and uh rocked it out. He was like, "Dude, that was [ __ ] awesome. I'm with you know, you know who I am, right?" I was like, "Yeah, you're you're John Salter from Atto. You know, I'm a big fan of all a lot of bands on your label." And he was like, "Well, if you can do that on a record and write songs like that, I'll put a record out for you." And I was like, "I'm going to hold you to that." And so I like went home and wrote Renegade, which was my fourth album or third. No, no, no. Yeah, cuz Coyote. Yeah, that's right. Fourth album. And um and it took me about a year to like get all like I wrote a lot of songs but to get the ones that >> I had to make a conscious effort to write in that style. I had never really tried that before. It was a really good exercise for me. Um and I definitely tried to write something more accessible to like the general public. Like I made a conscious effort when I made that record because it was like ATO is a pretty big label, you know, and they can do they can change things for you if they want to. >> Totally. Look at this. >> They have the power, you know. >> So I wanted to give them something that they thought they could work with. And um anyway, that record came out in June of 2019 and that's how I got on that label was just by him coming to a show and seeing the show and digging it. I just got lucky. So when you start writing Coyote, is he, you know, listening to it going, "Oh, this isn't going to be the big rock record." >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah, man. But you know what is cool about him? Um, he'll facilitate. He's a cool guy. You can talk to him and be like, man, like he hates strings. He doesn't like them at all. And I was like, "Dude, I need I need like $6,000 because I want to put the best strings that Nashville can buy on this record." And I know who they are. And he was like, "Man, I hate strings, you know?" Like I was like, "Why do you hate strings, man?" He's like, "Ah, I just I hate them, you know." He's like, "They just they ruin the the the vibe, you know, and it's just not his style, you know?" He's like, "But if but, you know, like sell me on it, you And I'm like, well, there's this cinematic quality that I'm looking for that it's lacking that I really just wanted to have that I think strings could like bring to the table. He's like, look, man, I'm going to give you 6,000. Do it. You know, whatever. You know, just do it. But I remember like knowing that this I was going to make because I had spent so much time trying to write Renegade in it for for like a commercial release like and trying to make it like commercial like accessible. Um I was like I'm just going to go back to writing and it just didn't do that well. And plus COVID had happened and like I I remember we sold we sold out the Bowery Ballroom and my career was like on an upward trajectory for the first time like ever when that record came out and I was so excited and then COVID happened and everything was just like and like everything got cancelled. So when I was writing Coyote, my daughter was about to be born and uh and I had this feeling in my heart like I can't I have to do something to change like who I am fundamentally before this child that I'm about to have to raise comes into the world. And I was having all these feelings and like this I was always sort of into getting into trouble. Like I felt like even when I was a kid like my I remember my aunt saying I was a bad influence on her children which is weird. Uh, but everything something every time something happened it was always like yeah because he's hanging out with with him you know and I was like damn. Anyway, so I'm writing this record and a lot of that record is just about that character, that like part of myself like trying to kill it off and get rid of it, man. you know, and the I always had this brazen attitude like I'm gonna do whatever the [ __ ] I want whenever I want to and I don't really care, you know, what the consequences are or like I just didn't whatever that thing is that people have that says like those are some consequences that you're going to pay. Like I never even that was never even a part of the thought process. Like give me that pill, dude. Give me that drink. >> [ __ ] it. You know, >> man, I'll tell you what, that Coyote record is killing me right now. I [ __ ] love it. >> Thank you. I love that record, man. I put a lot of work into >> Oh, we're back on the speaker. >> No, I'm I'm off it. >> Okay, good. Now, let me ask you something. You put Coyote out and then you put out like an extended version of it. What is that? >> The extended version. >> I need that to go away, dude. >> Uh the extended version is uh just more songs. We just wrote more a lot more songs to put on the album. And >> And is that from the Coyote Sessions or a different session? >> It's from the Coyote Sessions. Um, >> wow. >> We did 17 songs in uh we had 10 days. We had the the great session players. We had Fred Elringham and I was >> Oh, Fred played on it. >> Oh yeah. You know Fred? >> Yeah. I've known him for years. He was the drummer in the Wallflowers when I toured with the Wallflowers. >> That's right. >> He's incredible, man. He's probably one of my He's the best drummer I've ever worked with in the studio. >> But maybe period. And what a cool guy. He was just >> Yeah, he's a scorcher. He played uh also Dixie Chicks, I believe. >> Yep. And he played played with Cheryl Crow. >> Cheryl Crow, right? Yeah, >> man. >> [ __ ] wild. >> So, we had him on drums and uh and this guy named Moose Jim Moose Brown on Keys and a guy named Seth Kaufman from this band called Floating Action. I'm not sure if you if you're familiar. >> No, >> but he's from Asheville. And I was just such a big fan of his band that I and I love his bass playing and I'd done some touring with him and I called him to do the session and it was just an incredible group of of people on that session. My dad played bass. >> Wow. >> My dad played guitar. He played a ton of guitar. And you know, he's whenever he's a part of the equation, the whole thing elevates. Man, that's cool. >> Because he's killer in the studio. >> So, you came down to see some comedy Thursday. That was your first comedy show. >> Yeah, dude. I was kind of embarrassed uh to tell you that, but man, I I've never been to a comedy show. I loved it. Uh the the guy before you was pretty funny. >> Yeah. >> Uh and then you were you crushed it. >> You slayed it, man. I laughed my ass off. It was great. >> Yeah, it was so cool to have you there, man. Hopefully, we'll cross paths on the road or something. You can see me do an hour. >> I'd love to see you do an hour. >> Okay, you're out on tour right now. How many more dates, >> man? I've got four more shows. I've got tonight in San Diego. I've got tomorrow in Phoenix. And then Santa Fe and Oklahoma City. And then I go home for a couple days. And then you're doing a Europe tour, right? >> Yeah, I've got a Euro tour and then I've got this other project called The Family. And that album comes out um in just a few weeks on July 31st. And that album I made with my literal family. It's my dad, my stepmother, and my stepbrother, and me, and our good friend Brad Chrysler. And we're releasing that record uh July 31st. It's called Delusions of Grandure, and we're really excited about it. and put out what my brother-in-law started a record label. So, we're just putting it out on his record label and he's a lives in Pensacola, Florida. So, and then I've got, you know, my solo thing. I've got this November uh December tour coming up in Europe and I have a daughter in Europe. So, I spend a lot of time over there anyway. So, try to make some money over there always helps. >> Yeah. Hell yeah. Well, uh, send me that, uh, family record when it's, uh, ready to go. And, uh, I'm looking forward to seeing you again, man. It was a great show and I'm looking forward to a new record from you in 2027, >> man. Me too, brother. I can't wait to make another album. Can't wait to get back in the studio. And thanks for having me on, Dean. I appreciate it, man. >> Oh, God. Your record's fantastic, and I'm looking forward to listening to the other ones. Thank you for coming on the show. >> Hell yeah, man. Thank you for having me. Put me on the list. That was killer. >> Yeah. Have a great Have a great uh show tonight. >> All right, brother. >> I'll see you. >> See you. >> Later, bud. Later.