EFAP #400 - The Eighth Anniversary of Pausing Every Frame - Covering Everything with Everyone - 1

to to answer the Teletubby question, the TQ. Uh, Teletubbies live in the appropriately named Teletubby land, which is like calling where I live America land. >> No, it's just it's just American land >> where the Americans live. >> I guess it would be like calling it human land, right? Because it's all human >> sort of, I guess. Yeah. Are the Teletubbies a species or is that their tribe name and that they've killed all other? >> Well, I assume my head cannon is that each of the Teletubbies, Tinky, Winky, Dipsy, Lala, and Poe, because they are different colors, um, their last surviving members are four different tribes, uh, as they live in a barbaric and, uh, feudal sort of system. >> They found peace with tribes. So much. >> Yeah. Another very interesting fact. Do you know what the name of the the dome the the sci-fi Shire place that they live? Their house. Do you know what it's called? >> No. >> I do. >> It is called the Tubbyronic Superdome. >> See, there's a lot of tech being involved in their existence that begs questions. Let's just put it that way. >> Well, I mean, yeah, they got TVs and their >> cyborgs. Uh, under the people also ask section that Google has, it says, "Why did Tinky Winky get fired?" Oh my god, he got fire. He got fired. Okay. Um, original Tinky Winky actor Dave Thompson left the show after the first few episodes following creative differences. How many creative differences? Just bounce around in your costume and make noise, you freak. be creative differences like, "Oh, I really wanted to take Tinky Winky into a more Renaissance man, philosopher kind of angle." >> Yeah. You like jump to the side. Go. He's like, I just don't think Tinky Winky would do that. I just I feel like he's he's a changed man. He's a different man. Yeah. After his tribe was executed then as the last survivor I feel like that would affect his >> dude. This like an episode where he discovers like ancient tablets that describe the great war and his tribe having been annihilated by Po's tribe. >> They're out there as he reminisces on his lost life. His family >> all the four Teletubbies >> screaming as well. It's got to be Vietnam flashes and screaming. You and I are taking different angles because in in my mind, we've got the four Teletubbies and they're out and they're dancing and singing and having having a great time and everything's wonderful and the baby's son god is laughing and then we have that Milan moment where they're singing and then they come across the remnants of the battle and they just cross over a hill. It's like a mass grave >> that inspires like a different >> fighting >> different story in my mind of like they have a guest, you know, cuz they sometimes have guest humans or whatever. The second any of them discover the mass grave, the detectives have to kill them. It's like, you wandered too far. >> This article here uh says that it was later reported that the show's production company had implied the character was gay. >> He didn't want that. He was like, "No, Tinky Wiki is not gay." Um yeah, the uh some disgruntled viewers claimed the character was gay as he carried a red handbag sold with a US evangelist warning parents that the lovable purple alien was the gay pride color while his triangle antenna was the gay pride symbol. >> He's the gay one because he has a mad back. >> To be fair, that's pretty impeccable logic. I like how their mind went straight to he's gay instead of oh, it's probably a girl then, I guess, right? >> I can't have Tinky Winky be a girl. >> It's It's better that he's gay than he's a girl, but also that's not allowed. >> As well as like you can be inspired and entertained by this psycho alien horrible monster thing, but not if he's gay. >> What the It's amazing is they have they have a picture here and it just screams gay to me. I don't know about y'all, but this is the cha stinky winky. Oh. Oh my goodness. >> Yeah, in a sense. >> Dude, look at those eyes. >> He's seen so much. >> War. His land is being ravaged by so much war. He's a broken jelly tummy. >> I think you are the lowest of the low. I think you are the worst of the worst. I think that there are [ __ ] rapists and Nazis out there. They are more redeemable than you because at least they're doing something they [ __ ] believe in. I've fought with many warriors in my time. You're far stronger than all of us put together. And they died. They died facing enemies and threats that scared me far less than this one. Everything that they sacrifice will be for nothing if we do not stand together. Put aside your petty squables. Presume nothing except this. If you return, you will return as brothers and sisters. Remark my words. It's you. >> I'm in tremendous pain. I'm in tremendous pain. [ __ ] it. >> We're going to need a miracle. >> Hello all my nwords. >> It's not possible. Oh, hello. >> Hi everybody. Wait, why isn't the chat up? Oh dear. >> Why isn't the chat up? Maybe they're not saying anything. >> Oh, nailed it. Well, >> they're not saying Oh, they are speaking. >> That's good. That would be really sad if we begin an anniversary and there's just no one here and no one's saying anything. >> Oh, there's always a moment between moving from the intro video to the to the us talking where I'm like, is everything going to collapse? But it didn't. Everything's fine. And the audio levels, I think, are good. just collapsed. >> Audio levels are very >> That was a That was a sweet intro. >> It really was. >> That was amazing on both counts. On both counts. >> Um thing. God damn. >> Those were suspiciously good. >> We will likely look at them again later. >> No, I that one's that one. I don't know what the [ __ ] going on there. Like what what happened? How did that guy make that? And but some people were like, "Where did that even come from?" I think that's a super chat catchup. I think where we were talking about the Teletubbies. I don't think that was that was made. So that's like secret law. >> I can't remember. >> People don't even know, but um you know, incredible incredible incredible work. And uh I suppose you know it's suitable because we're at episode 400. >> Holy shikes. >> Which if you didn't know means that we've done eight years of this. Dude, that's that's like that doesn't that's that doesn't make sense. >> No, >> it's a little silly. >> If it was absurd for anything that's like internet oriented to to ever last for like those kinds of lengths, it's like wait a minute. This is like this is like real stretch of time right here. >> People are getting people lives in that time. Okay. >> Wow. >> Married. They people tell us they're going to propose to people. they get married. >> Is that is that a doctor? >> You get a doctorate in eight years. >> It's two presidential terms. I know that >> we can even say maybe three at this point now. We've veered into it. >> It's uh or or or who or or alternatively six prime ministers of the United Kingdom. Nobody's ever made that joke before. >> Yeah. They're like they're like defense against the dark arts teachers over there. >> Drop flies. God damn it. Uh yeah, you know, welcome welcome everybody. We're we we usually call it like this. The end of the ETH, beginning of the 9th. Holy moly, what a great celebration you got. Here we are. The four hosts of EAP, bringing you everything that we can in the world of media covered by everyone. Give it a moment and I'll start pouring people in and cycling them over the course of this next 20 hours. >> Wait, what was that? >> That's we got we got so many so many things to talk about. So many so many videos to watch. Um, >> wacky video essays, responses, horrifyingly stupid perspectives, as well as good oldfashioned cringe, funny nonsense, uh, you know, all of it. All of it's coming, >> as well as just a broad celebration of how far this [ __ ] show has come, which all started because we just randomly thought we'd stream one night and that was it. Uh, eight eight [ __ ] years, man. Need a walking stick for for EAB eventually. Like, oh jeez, >> years is a long way. Um, this one feels somewhat a closing of an era for a couple of reasons, but one of them, uh, would be that you're going to get the last two Batoman episodes today or tomorrow, depending on how time works for you. Uh, the end of season two because there is no coverage for season 3. It stops at season two. I will say it's uh, it's simply not as good without Kate Kane, but uh, that is that is where it stops. the so the breakage between it's it's just lined up perfectly between parts two and one and two and three you'll be getting the final two batwammans both edited beautifully by [ __ ] and they are on the way um there's also there's just some stuff to go over like that intro implied something's coming foreshadowing for a big old boss uh that that there will be more information on and don't you don't you panic on that one as well as uh I mentioned other streams we're going to reveal to you in quite a bomb bombastic way exactly what E Fat Movies 100 is cuz it's it's close. It's so nearly cooked. >> Brace yourselves, lads. >> Brace yourselves indeed. Um, as well as perhaps another little announcement regarding some things we're putting out and some things to expect in future, but we're also just going to be doing a lot of stuff today cuz uh it's a big old day. It's anniversary and you got to do stuff. >> Going to be a big day, a long day. >> How are you guys doing? You guys right? You ready? >> Should ask you, did we sleep well? Did we Did we get our rest? Do we have our >> Did you Were you lucky enough on that front? Some people aren't, you know. >> Yeah, I did okay. I did all right. >> Well, that's good. >> You know, I feel like I got sabotaged a bit. Like >> I feel like I did everything right. And then it's like, "Hey, you want to wake up for like two and a half hours at the worst possible time?" >> It's like, "No, I' I'd like to go to sleep." No. At night, I'm afraid I can't allow that. So >> sometimes you can do everything right and still lose. >> Yeah. I feel like I put more thought into it than I normally do to try and get ready and then it didn't work. Like I remember there was one year. >> That's how it goes though, right? It's like when you you sit there lying there thinking, "Right, I'm going to think very hard about going to bed now." And then it never works cuz you're thinking about it. >> I can't force myself to sleep. If I'm not tired, I have to get up and do something that will wear me down. I have to do something else that'll tire me out. I can't force it. If it's not happening, it's not happening. >> I try to force it. It doesn't usually end well. >> You can try and make yourself sleepy by running around for a bit or something, I guess. >> Or um >> you go like that. >> Well, I mean it different things for everybody. I don't know what works for you guys. What makes you guys sleepy? Maybe listening to >> running around. That gets me get that gets my blood flowing. It gets me energized. Like, oh, we're running. We're doing stuff. What if >> you got really tired from it though eventually and then you likely tired maybe but not sleepy. That might even get like Yeah, that wouldn't do it. >> What about coffee? Does that is that a sleep aid? Does that work? >> What about running around with coffee? >> Energy drinks kind of keep they they keep me up. I got some of those. >> Is that Oh, what about >> if you take the energy drink a lot of it and then wait for the crash down and that's a good way to sleep. It's better than not sleeping at all forever. You got to time it really. You got to time it really well. >> Yes. >> Cuz if you don't time it well, you've just [ __ ] yourself horrifically. >> Feel like at that point, maybe you put that effort towards, you know, going to sleep normally or just scheduling yourself better to go to sleep at a good time. >> Sleeping normally. What kind of solution is that? >> Yeah, it's not sens sensible. Stop that. >> Situationally disabled already. >> I'm going to leave. [ __ ] you. I may want to make those aware that there is indeed an objectively subjective EFAP survey linked in the description. If you check that out, give your votes, we will have a look see at it on part three. This is the year of the changeover. I suppose it's passing from Kara used to do it has done for all of them. And uh it is now over to a new custodian, a new steward. Um believe Malad, Professor Mal is [ __ ] blocked on Discord. It's not even helpful. >> I believe >> turning the what's >> the discord does the thing where it dot dot dots loads of names but not all of them. It just does it with the long names and I'm just like how is that useful to me? >> Yeah, but like it doesn't block other people's shorter names. So it's not about it. It's not even a privacy thing. It's just annoying. >> Stupid. >> Well, if it's I guess if it's only like three or four letters, it wouldn't block it. >> Why? Why? >> So you're talking about because there's nothing to block. >> No. So like that's not usually blocked, right? And then if you go on streamer streamer mode, it'll block the full name except the first letter. >> I know what you're Yeah, I know what you're talking about. >> For example, little platoon is not blocked. It could see the whole thing like Well, >> does it do the thing where it gives them just like the first letter capitalized and that's just who they are now? Does it change their name to that? >> That would I think be not a bad idea. But if it it doesn't do it consistently. Fringy I can see. I can't see Metal Commander, Mark Cyborg. >> I see Brooks and Random and Goer and it's like that doesn't seem very fair. Well, because their names are shorter, they don't get privacy. >> Yeah, you're right. I have no idea how it works. >> Be kind of on brand. I'm not gonna lie. >> The Discord, what are we supposed to do? The names are short. >> Well, hey, you know, being long is uh is rewarded. You You are correct. Now, um what what we usually begin with something in the form of gaming, I guess. >> You know, >> I like video games. >> Beautiful world of gaming. Yes. >> Video games like Jim Sterling stuff. >> Yeah. Yeah. What What has been the highlights this year in the world of gaming for even us? Mixtape. That was a That was a big one. >> What year was What year was Star Wars Outlaws? Was >> Oh god. >> Is Was that last year or this year or the year before that? >> Two years ago. >> Oh Jesus. Oh my god. >> That was 2016. Rags. It was a long time ago. >> What does it feel like? It happened yesterday. >> Well, Halo happened. >> Yes. >> This year has been you had Resident Evil Reququum 007 First Light and we got some great stuff upcoming like Wolverine. >> Red 6. >> Yes. What? Um >> Gears of War and uh Call of Duty Modern Warfare 4. That's funny. Modern Warfare 4. >> That beta is out right now. You can actually play it on Game Pass. I did not install it because I don't care. >> That's a good reason to know. >> Yeah, you can play the beta in. >> I thought Call of Duty wasn't on it anymore cuz >> some of them are a lot of money. >> They got the new ones off and then they they put another one recently on there again. I think it was one no one played. They resold um the the remasters of like three of the old ones or something like that. And they sold a bunch. >> Well, >> right, >> you guys are forgetting one great entry this year into gaming that wasn't a new release, but certainly covered on EAB. That is Lord of Ring Golem. >> Obviously, Lord of Ring, we [ __ ] >> it's going to be very competitive for vote for the greatest episode. We will find out what ends up winning that one, but uh you know, you can't discount at any point. all the best like super cuts. Uh that that's going to be up there I imagine. And there will be I know this sounds insane. There will be a Lord of Ring Gollum section to this anniversary. It is coming. >> God, there are things we're not done with it. >> Joe Danger will be joining us. Um but >> shadow from the past. >> I think considering that's been given a mention, um there is uh there is something we need to deal with here in the form of uh uh Theo. You you once you once made a claim that you would never ever ever play Lord of Ring Gollum, but I uh I it seems >> wise man >> seems there's been a breach of security, a leak if you will. This was among the files for GTA 6 and uh >> it cannot be denied here. So there seems to have been a discussion in the fat podcast talk. I I've been made aware of this. So, Theo will play Gollum for $2,500, no less. And I get a 225 cut. And uh Theo seems to seems to say deal here. >> Now, this could be AI. I'm not going to deny that. >> Maybe he means maybe he means like deal with it. Like, no. Deal with it. >> Deal with it. Maybe >> fake. Uh, >> it's a deep reel. >> Am I to understand this is this is something you've committed to that you would do this if if you were paid 2,500? >> [ __ ] man. You [ __ ] Yeah. >> Do you think Do you think that there aren't people crazy enough to do this? Theo, >> you understand? You're Mr. I love video games being good and Gollum is the antithesis of such a thing. Meaning there would be a It's like It's like when a planet hits another planet, the the fireworks, you know, just it would be impossible to resist. >> I >> This is called the AZ Gambit. >> I've been I've been trying to caution people because people have been on me for mixtape as well. I'm I'm not sure how much fun you'll actually get out of me because I tend to check out quite fast. >> Yeah, but you'd be forced to complete it because of the agreement there. >> This would be against your will. You'd you would have to you'd be a you'd be a slave essentially in this aspect. >> What if I end up eventually just uploading the the no commentary let's play? You know, like >> just a long play. >> Yeah. >> But yeah, you know, if the rules are that you got to complete it and I mean you kind of got to speak and it guarantees a stream from you. Have you even done a stream of a game before? >> Um, only to friends on Twitch like 5 years ago. So >> this there's a lot of things that would be happening for the first time if it were >> I suppose. So >> So what if like one person made that payment? >> That person would be [ __ ] out of their mind and I would try to get them their money back like [ __ ] hell. Do something. What if that one person made the payment filled up from when other people had been maybe formed into a fundraiser for it? Like they made sure it completed no matter what. >> This is all hypothetical. I'm not saying you know. >> Yeah, sure. >> You can't do this to me. >> I'm going to get a [ __ ] out of money. You guys for free [ __ ] >> I was Mel the outrage one. He's the one that started all this money for gaming stuff. >> Yeah. And if I would have known what this entailed to, I would have said like 3,000, not >> you'd just be sitting here complaining saying you should have said 5,000 whatever money is. Oh my god. >> Yeah. The value of golem has increased metal. >> Yeah. Apparently >> pray it does not increase >> the lord of rig is outraged. >> So am I to understand then that that is uh that is all very true. Interesting. >> You know what? Let's just say yeah. Sure. Why? Why not? >> Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. You know, like I said, >> fascinating. >> I just stumbled across it being a crazy leak as part of the GTA stuff. Like loads of people are talking about on Twitter, Theo playing Lord of Ring Golem, and I was just like, "No way." >> I was trying to keep my involvement in GTA like on the down low, but I I guess if I guess it's I guess if it's out there now, >> I'm actually not involved. >> Leaks. >> This could be the beginning of your villain origin story. It's like the moment you're, you know, nice and sensible. your mind is intact and then by the end of Gollum it's no [ __ ] it actually I'm I'm basically Dr. Doom. The world needs to die >> and and I'm going to be extremely racist while doing it. >> My tummy. >> It's an interesting idea. Luckily, obviously, no one's crazy enough to do anything about it. >> Yeah, that'd be that that would be wild. >> Yeah. So, it's not mixed. >> So, Ed, it it's very funny that while you guys have been talking, I've been going through the uh the uh EFAB community survey, and I've just got to the question, who in the sphere should be made to stream Lord of Ring Gollum next? And Theo is on the list. >> Theo's like the top vote person for this [ __ ] >> I'm the top vote. Really? >> Are you leading leading questions? >> I guess I should actually be surprised. >> What? The people would love to see you suffer. No, you should not be surprised. >> No. Yeah, exactly. Of course they do. >> So, anyway, I put a goal up. I don't know if anyone's seen it. Oh my god. >> Oh my [ __ ] god. 2500 for anybody who doesn't know what maths does is uh 50 time 50. So um like I said, don't feel the need to do anything about this. Humble chatters at home. I will make up whatever isn't because I take great personal enjoyment in watching him play Lord of Ring Gollum. Not to mention helping Joe Danger construct an additional uh super cut that will likely be the end of the tril. Holy [ __ ] >> Jesus [ __ ] Christ. So this test was, by the way, you can only cap it to three hours. >> Do you guys hate that this much? >> Suffer as we have suffered. >> So many people have hidden hatred for you. They'll just throw this out. This is their reward. Like >> I'm I'm sorry about the Clone Wars and Elder Ring. My bad. >> Theo, you're aware as soon as he started talking, you were a [ __ ] anyway. >> Yeah, I know. It was like over the moment I said a word. It's it's it's fine. It's fine. >> Theo is getting this money, right? It's not just going to go into a Muller's pocket. >> He's getting he's getting a portal as >> to be absolutely clear. I'm I'm giving it I'm going to send him on probably PayPal 2,500 no matter what. This little goal set of honor system. >> So what's happening here is whether or not these people wish to be able to claim it was their fault that this happened. >> Go they want to be able to write their name on my >> stone. Is that it? Like >> [ __ ] me. You're going to hit this goal in like 5 minutes. [ __ ] hell, guys. 30 seconds, man. >> I am. Yeah. Yeah. >> Bye. >> 7500. >> See, I >> I did the mix thing on a random Tuesday where it's like a very slow stream and all of a sudden people came. >> Me personally, I think this is about how much people love you. Definitely that. See, oh, look, there's >> Theo, we love you. >> There's a guy there saying we love you. Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh god. >> It's not a guy who's saying suffer, but you know, it's, you know, >> is this hate or love? Like, it's probably hard to figure out. >> Um, >> I don't know. I've never been in this position before. I don't really know how to >> I don't really know what I'm doing here, you know. Uh, >> you go Theo, we love you. >> I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to say thank you, even though this is not like a gift, you know. >> You can super chat yourself. We have not even >> We've not even gotten into topic one and we're at 35 out of 50. It's done, bro. >> Yeah, obviously. >> It's Golem, man. That's a power. >> The power of Golem. >> The good thing about Gollum is that Golem will suffer with you. You're not in this alone when you play Golem. >> He's your partner. >> And you can't be, you know, you can't be speedrunning it cuz I know you're good at that. You got to you got to play through. You got to enjoy it. Accept it. You could comment on dialogue. You you like that Lord of Rings, so this should be fine. >> Oh, I'm going to I'm going to come out looking like such a games journalist. All my street cred like down the down the drain, you know. >> Uh yeah, I mean five away. So um >> all right, man. >> Congratulations. >> Yeah, the balls are locked in. >> Jesus Christ. >> You now you now get to experience uh that game. >> Do you know what I'm saying about the thing? metal that had you see whatever thing you put it at you end up thinking damn I should have put it higher cuz now Swollpool is probably like [ __ ] >> why did I say it you know he he was getting he was getting a finders fee or something it's done >> it's done >> all right awesome >> how long did that take >> you did it it's over >> that was like 10 minutes >> that wasn't 10 minutes yeah you're vastly overing how long that took >> that was shocking >> so How much for mixtape then? >> Oh, >> let's we have to see if he's mentally competent. >> We have to cross that bridge operate instead. >> Hold on. Hold on a minute. >> Due to the nature of mixtape, you could legitimately play them both at the same time. >> On a second stream, >> a single double stream. >> Really? I've heard this mixtape thing really doesn't it really does not like the fact that it's a video game much. >> No. No. >> I haven't seen much of it. So, I would be more blind for that one for what it's worth. >> Oh, that would be something. Yeah. But, uh that that's why I like doing it like cursing people with Golem because it actually takes it it does take your spirit eventually. Mixtape you can almost sit back and not even acknowledge. Not that I chose to do that or many people here chose to simply sit back. We we We donated parts of our soul for it, but you will have to to get through Golem. Do you know Nick Dioro thought he could beat Gollum in two streams? >> How How wrong was he? >> How I mean I I don't blame him for that because I think that you'd be like, well, it's not it's not like a pretty long game, is it? It's like Yeah, it is. >> It is. It is pretty long. >> Yeah. I know it's not that it's long. It's that it's bizarrely like segmented in terms of length. So you'll get to the big stretches where you have really huge levels just when you think you're making some pretty good progress and you're cooking through this thing. You hit the really, really long chapters and you're like, "Oo, I'm dead." >> Danger knows the game probably better than anyone else on the planet cuz he's watched through everyone's streams multiple times to make the super cuts. And he completed the game in 14 hours. >> 14 hours. It is It is It is not a short game. Nope. No. And it's not light on the suffering either. But hey, you know, you got that to look forward to. So, congratulations. Of course, I will >> I'm sure it'll be fun. >> We'll sort that out for you after the anniversary. Okay. >> And then you >> can sort it out for everyone else. >> I'm still processing in like both good and bad ways, you know. Uh >> is uh is the best way to help uh process that to get started with the the regularly scheduled uh layoffs. That sounds like a good idea. >> As soon as the PC struggles to what I usually do when we stream, okay, is to I track I copy and track every last message that comes in. Let's just say uh it's it's been hard already to do that thanks to the extreme generosity and the interest in torturing Theo, of course. Can't really underestimate that. So, um you know, just just sorting that out, making sure I'm ahead of it before we start again. >> Uh we'll be absolutely fine. all all things will begin in their uh expected ways, which yes, um however you want to put it. Fortunately or unfortunately, that would mean that we're heading toward a a sterling shaped video, I suppose. >> Oh, boy. >> The [ __ ] hat question is on the survey. >> Of course, >> that hat came back up. >> That's fine. >> Oh, well, I think there's a there's an actual question regarding that. So, you'll be fine there. You'll be fine, rags, cuz you'll fine. >> I'll be fine. Like the hat. That's fine. >> We'll see what the objectively correct >> asterisk here. >> By the way, >> asterisk something that's fun about each anniversary is uh whatever the theme is going to be for the thumbnails. I enjoy >> and it's always a surprise. And this one you we're pretty hip, you know. We're pretty >> Yeah, >> we're uh we're pretty cool. >> We really are. You guys always know those fellow kids. >> Beautiful. are pretty dope every single time. >> So, to be clear, just so anybody who's brand new knows, this is a 24-hour episode of EFAP. It's going to be split into three streams cuz YouTube caps for some reason at about something like 11:55, 45, something like that, and it stops being able to show the full VOD. I don't know when they're going to fix that or at least boost it a little bit higher, but whatever. That's why we split it up. Um, we have breaks to stretch the old legs, drink some water, which I recommend everyone do throughout anyway. And that's when you'll get your >> can't stretch his legs. It'll make him sleepy. >> That's true. >> Especially if I take energy drinks. >> You know, I do associate energy drinks with sleeping because they sabotage my very first attempt at doing a 24-hour stream. >> I mean, energy drinks I think it's pretty normal to associate them with sleeping because it keeps sleep away. >> Well, I associate them with they kept me awake and then they crashed me so hard I couldn't actually complete the stream. >> You have 40 minutes of wiry energy and then you have this horrible crash that you can't control. It's just >> wait is wiry energy very energetic or not very energetic. >> Yes. You have like this spike of energy of like adrenaline for like a little while then you just fall off a cliff. >> I haven't had that in >> if you describe a person as wiry then they're like really thin. >> Right. >> Well, what is people's preferred energy drink and why is it Red Bull? >> Gatorade. >> It's not from your Do you want Do you want Monster? Is that your energy drink? I'm a rockstar dog. >> Rockstar. >> Yeah, I like Rockstar. >> Probably Monster >> NS for me. >> Drinking. >> What's probably my third between Rockstar and uh Red Bull? Red Bull's just expensive. That's the problem. >> It's expensive. Is it any more expensive than the other ones? >> Absolutely it is. >> Yeah, it's like the same price and you get like twothirds the amount. So >> Oh, I see. Yeah. >> What's the energy drink that they have in Australia? I've never seen it in any other country. And it it's a big like bottle. It's like 700 ms or something which is huge. >> I will say I actually like have not I'm not I'm not a energy drink connoisseur typically. I don't I really don't drink much energy. >> But have you seen this stuff? Have you seen this stuff like in the supermarket? Cuz it I don't know how it would be legal to sell in the UK. All I ever notice is Red Bull Monster or uh or Rockstar. That's like all I I don't know. It's like you're not paying attention, you know, and then you don't see it. But now that you've now that you've reminded me, I guess maybe I'll pay attention. >> Oh, mother. That might be that might be it. Yeah. >> Never even heard of that. >> An energy drink called Mother. >> Mother called like kangaroo with an exclamation point at the end. >> Like Red Bull is a great name. As much as I hate energy drinks, that's a fantastic name. You know, terrible. What are you drinking? I'm drinking mother. >> I'm drinking mother tonight, bro. >> Well, if you drinking your mother, so that's even worse. >> You know what the little friend energy drink is named? Does anyone know by any chance? I think it's pretty funny name. >> Kong. >> Kong. That's a good one. >> Oh, that sounds like one of those uh those really sketchy penis pills that they sell at gas stations. >> Oh, that would explain a lot, actually. really really really erect and viral >> just like me right now. >> That's right. Just like metal. Metal is Kong strong. >> I'm Kong strong. >> Why isn't everyone in the wash together? I provide the link. >> Yes. >> I was distracted by mother disappointment. The shame oname. >> Oh, you're a mother. >> So, >> how's your mom doing by the way? >> Are those the mother cans there for you? Cuz they're kind of weird. I love mother's cans. >> I I guess so. Yeah, >> I want to see mother's cans. >> So, I suppose it's time to get started. Um, this is something I mentioned on a previous stream somewhere to somebody. I don't even remember anymore, but it's like I don't think we ever played on EFAP or if we did, most people have forgotten it now, but it was a it was a wonderful podcast moment where uh uh Jim Stephanie Sterling was was on with Yatsi Croch and two other people I don't know the names of and uh they were having a little chat and Oh, >> yeah. A lot of people were like, "What were you referencing?" And I was like, "Oh, [ __ ] Most people maybe don't know about this." So, I thought uh I'd let people know cuz it's it's kind of hilarious. >> And that's one of the things I was going to mention in the catch up at the beginning is that I am pregnant. >> Or rather, my body thinks >> I need I need you to I did not edit the audio. Do you do you hear >> the little noise that that Yatsi makes when uh there's mention of pregnancy? Listen to the is very small. >> And that's one of the things I was going to mention in the catch up at the beginning is that I am pregnant >> or rather my body thinks you're >> someone screaming inside. It's the funniest [ __ ] >> So, I started getting car sick randomly the other week and it turns out that the hormones I'm on have made my body think it's pregnant. So, just announcing now that I have a strong, sturdy son on the way. I've named him Boris. And because the baby will never be born, it means I get to choose who the father is. So, watch yourselves, lads. Cuz anyone who crosses me is going on the list. >> All right, then. >> Yeah. Like, what did you even say? >> Y's mistake was thinking that you'd be talking about video games. looking up to it. >> It's just one of my favorite moments of a podcast clip. So [ __ ] funny. >> It's moving on. >> Posted like several times. Um I remember I posted this clip a couple years ago and then it went viral on my account to the point that Marty Silva blocked me for it just for that. It's like I don't even know who you are, man. I guess you're bad enough. Well, I I feel like I've tricked everybody because as part of ending traditions of certain kinds like Batoman and others, it would seem appropriate, right, that we do one last Sterling video perhaps because a lot of people be like, maybe maybe stop beginning Such a Wonderful Celebration with such immense cringe. And then I had the idea >> that we could like >> Well, uh, moving on. >> Not do it at all. That's good. That's nice. Yeah, >> that would make the last one the last one. >> I was going to say the tradition. Instead of ending the tradition, why don't we just begin the new one now? >> Why don't we go? >> Let's channel a little bit here. >> In with the new. >> Oh, you couldn't have said nucleus and made Fringy happy. >> Oh, wait. No, I'm mixing my That's a different That's different. That's a law for a different related joke in that episode. >> See that stupid joke? That's like the best joke. >> Don't worry, we only sound insane. >> Sense of humor. It's perfect. >> Like 5% of people got that, I think. Or maybe I'm overestimating that. Hopefully. >> And then uh the joke where Homer uses the the He does a demonstration and then causes a meltdown. And there, guys. Thanks, Homer. As they run in with hazmat suits. >> He's like glowing, right? >> That's a good episode. >> Hell yeah. >> Yes, he's glowing. He's often glowing. It's like when he uh when he did the um the the the where the nuclear inspectors came and he had to do a test and it's like and then he caused a meltdown even though there wasn't any nuclear material in the truck. >> Truck we >> Dude, guys, we got a Simpsons movie next year. Holy [ __ ] Anyway, yeah, >> let's try a different channel. >> Your evil double from an alternate universe. You defeated him, but the battle ripped a hole in the spaceime continuum, allowing creatures and powers from the video game world to cross over. Hey everyone, this is Noah here. >> There you are playing the PVP of your World War II. >> Listen. Okay, we got to we got to have a better class of hero or villain here. >> You're a Nazi. >> Enough of this. >> You didn't ask for this. You did. >> Hey, you ready? >> How you doing? >> Okay, too early. Okay, we'll get to you. Please, >> I hope you're doing >> this video will be talking. >> Okay. How about some new blood? All right. >> Well, >> I don't recognize. >> You don't recognize this is brand new. Brand new. Let's just try this is this. You know what, Rags? I just I was hitting the channel. I I have the remote. I was hitting channels and I just went to like channel 99. Let's see what this is. I don't know what this is. Let's see what this is. >> Came out several heavy topics including purpose, depression, the Holocaust, and Super Mario Galaxy. Oh, well, okay. >> This is real. This isn't real. This is >> No, like this. Like you prejudice. That's what that is. Prejudice. >> Fun when it's serious, right? >> Of course it is. >> This is one. This is very real. And two, give it give it a shot. Right. Let's Let's see what he's got to say. >> Yeah. >> I have often searched the stars for the meaning of life. >> Many a time. >> Like in like like in like he went to space to search. I don't think it's I don't think it's up there. >> Well, you know, >> got to hear him out, though. What if What if this is going to be great? >> I think this is Hollow Night music right off the bat as well, by the way. >> I don't know if I heard enough of it. >> Good. I'm glad. >> In my backyard, braving the Southern California winters of nearly 50° F with the heat from my mug of hot chocolate warming my fingertips. Or perhaps I was laying on our driveway at 3:00 a.m. The cool concrete caressing my back while my parents remain blissfully. >> Dude, hold on. >> This is caressing. >> You're not You're not a writer. >> When you're a video essaist, you need to accept and understand something. You're not a writer. You don't have pros like this >> essay. >> I was taken with this horses. >> You don't have the command over written language that can make it bearable to listen to you wax poetic. >> Oh, you're being so mean. You're being so mean. I feel like I'm right there with him as the concrete caresses my >> back naked on the driveway the hot chocolate like oh my god what is this >> you're all hating this is great >> of my location regardless of where the night sky might find me >> my gaze was fixed on the stars >> I love it when the gaz finally the gays are fixed >> people will be too inclined to say this is fake and all of those the twinkles. >> Scaring the twinkles sounds like a parody like album name for a metal >> scaring the sounds like the >> ended right there. >> Well, that's the chapter they took out of the Lord of the Rings movies, isn't it? >> I I like that. Uh even though the sky is meant It's It's looking pretty purple, which I think is very appropriate given this pros that we're listening to. Well, >> that's the gay. That's true. That's the gay color is purple. We learned that from the Teletubby. Okay, hold on. That's true. Fringy. twinkles in the hopes that they would rearrange into a constellation with the answer or that one would offer revelation in a glimmer. In my nightly adventures, I've seen many phenomena stars cutting across. >> Okay, I'm going to I'm going to skip us forward because clearly Okay, let's get to the let's get to the meat. Let's get to the raw >> in the original. How long does that go for? >> Keep going. Is that like 7 minutes? Tell us the truth. >> The whole video is long. I didn't watch all of it. Oh, that keeps going for a while. That's a long one. >> Why do people do this? >> What do you mean? It's a great It has like a million views or something. I think it's it's a lot. I think it's >> We have to stop doing this. Just be boring. Just be a boring song and start your video talking. >> Oh, why did you wish for that? You're going to get your wish. But before that, I'm just going to skip ahead in the video. Let's just skip ahead. See what it's looking like. when I needed to shift my mindset to how wonderful it is to find a sparkling joy that can lead us to profound meaning. >> A now you may think it a bit presumptuous, even arrogant to relate the profound suffering of a Holocaust survivor to my own suffering in suburban. >> No, he's smart. No, no, he's smart to get ahead of the controversy. >> Southern California, the Holocaust. Oh my god. >> Oh [ __ ] >> It's his personal holocaust. That's insane. >> That is. Yeah. >> Well, maybe he's referring to inflation. It makes everything a holoca. He's addressing it up front. He recognizes that this may come across as a little silly. So know that much. >> Of everyone that we have seen over the years, you think this is the one that just goes too far? Is this the one that breaks the mold? I mean, I was looking for an answer in the >> We have seen things spelled out. Don't >> they spelled out arite? No. Um, >> all right. We'll go with Theo's Wish and we will actually commit this time. I've gone back to a reliable channel. One that's not insane in every way, shape, and form. One that isn't new kinds of wackiness. We'll go to a safe, secure, boring video essaist. On November 6th, 2014, I uploaded the first video to a YouTube channel called Game Makers Toolkit. This is your fault for you. This is your fault. You understand >> this, man? >> I got to be careful what I say, huh? >> Yeah, you do. >> I'm learning that a lot today. >> A channel where I could tell you absolutely everything I know about game design. got these [ __ ] and everything driving me [ __ ] insane already. >> He might have I mean he might have told us everything he knows about game design. That might actually >> before the video even started >> where I tell you everything I know about game design. What's the point of that? >> What's the point what's the point of you? >> Makes you sound into a cutle. >> It does. >> Yeah, >> it's true. >> It does. It works. Do you know I've still got that in my um my profile on YouTube. It says I'm like the head of the interlocutional game or I'm an intercutal analyst. And I did get a comment the other day saying, "You spelled it wrong, you idiot." And I was like, "Yes." >> Oh, they got you there. They did feeling the jokes on you. I was just pretending to be [ __ ] >> Absolutely. And I will stand by it. >> I am [ __ ] Damn it. >> Comment also >> are pretending to be. Now, >> can you really ever know if someone's pretending to be [ __ ] Can you ever really know >> mysterious? >> God will know. >> Make something mysterious is a pretty good >> [ __ ] question, buddy. >> He's great. We haven't seen him in ages. Maybe even a year or something. >> 200. >> Oh, boy. >> Difficult question. Abstract. >> Theo, you're going to love the how this video begins, though. Uh cuz I did test this one out and the beginning alone, I was like, we got to cover this. 100 videos, eight game jams, and countless dungeon design flowcharts later, I can finally reveal the truth. >> Oh my god, the truth. >> I'm not even joking. >> This [ __ ] will be so funny considering what we've covered of him this whole time, right? The context being >> finally he spent 10 years telling everybody exactly how to play video games, right? And our opinion of him is that he's not said really anything. He's only ever said like video game go and that's about it. Mhm. >> The secret of Mario's jump. >> With that in mind, what is his truth? >> I didn't really know anything about game design. >> Yeah. >> I believe you. That was a very mysterious sentence you just said there, but go ahead. Go. >> It's nice that you've admitted it, though. >> Do you mean it though? Do you mean it? Does that count as getting in front of the controversy if you just openly say, "Hello guys, I don't know what I'm talking about." >> Cuz like the way you have to mean it is you go to an older video and it's like, "Yeah, here's here's what I said there and here's what's wrong with it." >> That's not happening, is it? >> Well, no, he's doing the wholesome version, which is he learned along with us. >> That's right. I was, but now I know a bunch. >> Yeah. He watched his own he watched his own videos, so he learned a lot. >> Yeah. Yeah. He's not even saying the old videos are worthless or anything or like incorrect information. He's saying that with each one he was learning while we were too. >> Well, compare that to cinematic venom. Didn't he make a video that was like countering the points in his other video so he can kind of like reflect on his perspective back then? Like this isn't what we're getting here. He's not going to explain the disconnect and like what he's learned. >> It's just >> No, he's going to be talking about how much he's taught us over the years. Actually, that's what this video is. You're going to love lesson one >> because despite the fancy motion graphics, the low-fi hiphop soundtrack, and the commanding British accent, all things that >> all of these things, >> I mean, it just feels weird because >> the main reason, >> it's what we've said for for years that is the only thing people like about the the channel in actuality. But he's like, it's not just that, though. This is why it works pretty much exactly that if you present something in a way that seems very professional and sophisticated, >> then people might not realize that everything that you're saying is worthless. >> Sound people will believe you. >> We've talked for a while about like the biggest hit to any given [ __ ] video essay on this site is if people just actually listen to it. A lot of people don't. It's a lot background music >> ends up being pretty uh pretty dire. The things that end up being said, >> like how nonsensical they are. I guess in his case, it's less that they're often apparently nonsensical, but more so just like, you know, did you know that when you jump over a gap, it makes you feel accomplished or something like that. It's like, yeah, no, I I haven't >> I haven't thought of that actually. >> Give the channel an air of authority and knowledge. I am truthfully no expert, >> but I wanted to learn. I wanted to understand the craft and cleverness behind my very favorite hobby. And so every video was an opportunity for me to find out more through research. >> Wo and interviews and analysis and then I could pop on. Isn't this kind of like the strangest [ __ ] thing ever though where is I didn't know anything and I had to find it out but I presented as though I knew it like for years years and years and years while making money from it. >> It wor so share what I've learned with all of you and you know what it worked. I've learned so much about the field of game design in this last decade. And so to mark this massive milestone, I want to share with you the 10 biggest lessons of them all. >> Oh my god. >> Cool. There we go. That's okay. Nice. We've arrived. >> So, even with all of that said, it's like, okay, now after all of that, and I now I have learned so much. These are the things that I've learned from doing this professionally for 10 years. So, this better be mind-blowing stuff of before. >> We complain enough about a single lesson per video, but now we're getting 10 concentrated ones per video in well, in this video. And all of these are the best, the cream of the crop or the cream of the pie, if you will. That'll make sense to some people uh across the course of 10 years. >> We love cream pies. >> So, yes, we're getting the best lessons across 10 years. >> Really, we're in for a treat. >> It's good value. Really good. We're going to walk away from this knowing so much about how to make video games from the the toolkit of game makers himself. >> Basically, if I could boil down 50 hours worth of GMTK videos into a single episode, this is what I would make. So, join me on a whistle stop tour of all the lessons, learnings, revelations. >> The learnings. Yes. And >> okay, and this video is how long? >> It's a very silly train crash. >> Uh, well, we have we have 14 minutes remaining. >> Hey, it's a fun train. This is uncharted, too. >> Distill the lessons of a career of more than 50 hours of like front end content into 14. Yeah. All right. >> We got about one minute per lesson. >> I assume that there would be some lost substance is what you're getting at, right, Theo? >> Yeah. Yeah. that there's time here to really explore much of anything >> from the first 10 years of running this channel. I'm Mark Brown and this is game warning man. Chills. >> Careful with violence, guys. >> Wow. >> Lesson one. >> Here we go. >> One of my very first videos looked at two games. Far Cry 2 Far Cry 4. Now one left. >> This video's already >> ran. He ran away. >> Yeah, he >> ran away. >> He formatted that in such a way as to like maximize the possible time it could take to get out exactly what the [ __ ] video was about. >> Yeah. >> These games are very similar. They're both about civil wars in fictional countries. They both have charismatic villains. They both have enemy camps and exotic animals. And they both have the words far and cry in their name. Just to be clearing for >> Have you considered that their tones are different? >> What about the mechanics? >> I was going to say, so every single second counts and he's like memeing right now. Like I don't think you have time, my good. >> What are the >> I feel like I could already anticipate. It's like, but have you considered that Far Cry 2 seems different to Far Cry 4? >> Isn't that [ __ ] crazy? >> Really? Mhm. >> What? My god. >> I thought about it at least once. >> But the similarities end there because when you actually pick up the controller and start playing, you'll realize that these games are completely different. One is a thrilling blockbuster action movie roller coaster and the other is literally the worst package holiday you've ever been on. >> That's not literally. That doesn't really tell me anything about the difference. >> It doesn't. Well, >> he's trying, man. It's like what you need to move into now is how the mechanics and like well everything that goes into the game serves to cultivate the environment in each of those two games. But we're just not we don't have the time. >> We got 24 hours. We got a lot of time. >> It was 10 lessons. So yeah, how much time are we getting here to talk about the differences between these two games? It's I think what I find funny about it is how like it's it's almost like a plainly absurd proposition of I know that a lot of you have probably assumed that because these two games are like part of the same series that they're basically identical and it's like not really nobody would ever thought to me that honestly you can't even really say this about Call of Duty which is one of the most like iterative like game franchises that's currently running that they're actually like interchangeable. I don't know that anybody who's ever gi I don't know that the kind of person who's interested in making video games really thinks that way. And if they do, >> this is like a disqualified. >> They would have to not think that way. >> Mhm. >> Because the devil is very much in the details. And when you're actually, you know, making a thing, you get a lot more insight into those details rather than having to operate in these sorts of broad strokes because you have a bit more of a, you know, you have more in a bit terms of a basis of knowledge of how these things come together. And so with this video, I learned one of the most fundamental game design lessons, that a game's experience is not driven by the plot or by the graphics or by the setting. It is. >> Oh, that's not true. >> This is what's pretty What's funny is that this is not something that you can say when drawing a comparison between two and four. Have you noticed that four is a lot more colorful than two? >> That's graphics. >> That doesn't change experience. That doesn't change experience at all. >> Setting broadly, that's plot, right? You would have to either Africa or island. >> So, we're already off to a bad start. Mhm. Why do we Why do video essayists insist on just minimizing parts of the craft? I just don't get it. Like >> minimizing all relevant to the craft, >> celebrated as a champion of the craft. >> Yeah. >> A toolkit for game makers, Theo. That's what this is. >> It's like this is supposed to be something I like cuz I imagine he's going to say, "Ah, it's the the mechanics or whatever the fuck." But like the whole idea is that the mechanics are working in harmony with everything else. Not just like otherwise you would just go and play Tetris because Tetris is like >> well yes cuz if the argument is these things don't deliver it then yeah surely you could be like well you can facilitate this experience just as effectively if two games are comprised of nothing but gray blocks uh with different mechanics that you could just disregard those other three. It's like well clearly you can't because it's it's the whole thing. It's the whole experience because this is because un unfortunately for this sort of format of videos art is a little bit more complicated than that. It can't necessarily be distilled this cleanly into a 5 minute or I guess in this case probably only one or two minutes. >> Mhm. >> But by the game mechanics Far Cry >> that's crazy. >> What's so funny is that him saying it is useless information even if he was right. It's like, it's the game mechanics that change the experience. Like, well, duh. What the [ __ ] >> Like, how do I do that? What does it mean to tune mechanics to cultivate a particular kind of experience? >> Well, that that's that's level two thinking. That's like finding out what Mario's jump means. You don't do that here. >> Yeah, we're not ready for that yet. >> Or is fun because you have loads of ammo. You can track your enemies and you can permanently wipe your foes off the map. >> Wow. And Far Cry 2 is harrowing because your weapons can jam, your jeep can break down, you have to save off bouts of malaria and >> that everything solved in one button press. I'm pretty sure >> the malaria it's just a button like a that's a horrible argument like this. Something that's really awkward is that, you know, cuz obviously you're saying these things facilitate a tone, but I almost got the sense with what you were getting there, rags, is that this stuff can very much become gamified to the point that you don't think of the context after enough time. And what does that mean? Does that mean that the game like starts to deteriorate because of that? Because somebody's not like, well, I'm not afraid of it now because like I kind of understand how it works. >> You can talk about that. If we take another example like Fallout is a good example where it often has a very goofy and silly tone. Not all the time show uh but it often has a goofy and you know silly light-hearted tone to it. Your gun doesn't jam so much as it like breaks and becomes unusable. But so it's essentially the same mechanic in two firstperson shooters and big open areas that have completely different tones and everything. So I mean you'd have to explain why your gun jamming creates a harrowing you know why it's harrowing here and otherwise. I mean, >> would it be if there were no enemies or if the enemies were really stupid and it meant that you had a whole bunch of time to deal with that because then it's like you got to be talking about the interplay between all of these mechanics, not simply a design intention, whether or not it's executed well. >> I wonder if we're even going to use the word friction cuz friction is at the core of all of this. Like that's essentially what he's trying to talk about, but I don't think the word's even going to crop up because we don't have why >> That's right. Can you explain why a weapon jamming or a vehicle not working can create friction? It's a challenge to overcome. It's something you have to keep in mind. It's something that takes up your mental bandwidth of >> If I wanted to say it, couldn't I say like, you know, that the enemies possibly right almost like divorce it from the games that we're actually talking about of like, well, in the game that's meant to be the more harrowing experience, the enemies are dumber. So even if I have more ammo in the other one, if the enemies are smarter, I feel a greater amount of pressure. I mean, of course, what about difficulty settings? What difficulty level are we playing either of these games on? Are we going to factor that into the conversation at all or no? Like, I I love how this is not even remotely helpful at all. Did you know that the the experience that you facilitate for the player is driven by mechanics? >> Yeah. How what else could it be driven by? >> Mechanics are Yeah. >> How could they? Obviously, we're talking about, you know, plot, setting, and characters, and obviously that that is obviously going to be feeding into it. But it's a video game. Of course, the mechanics are going to determine the experience. >> It's the doing of the game. You can't not >> I love how it's wrong. I love how it's stupid on both counts. It the the story, the graphics, the tone, the atmosphere is is not actually that important. It's the mechanics. It's like it's broken on both fronts. >> There are plenty of games that have extremely similar mechanics, but because of the music and the ambiance and the graphics and the setting and the plot, it is completely different feelings. Like I what a ridiculous thing to say. >> Yes, that's only one of 10. >> Dying sends you all the way back to the last save station. So, if you want to understand why a game makes you feel a certain way, >> oh my god, I read ahead. Oh god, >> dude. >> He's supposed to be telling us that. >> I was actually going to say, is this not the premise of the channel? >> Ask yourself, >> how do the mechanics contribute to the experience? >> You'll be asking yourself that in every single context for everything to do with game design. >> We faded out. >> Yeah, we're done with this topic. Yes. I No, that's Look, I'm I consider myself a teacher and that's means you need to go and think about it. You don't write the essay. >> My work. >> You're the students. You do the work. >> Lesson two. >> Here we go. >> In 2018, I made a video that asked the question, "Are high scores and leaderboards still relevant in modern games?" Yes. >> The answer is yes. >> Congratulations. The answer is why would they be relevant? >> Why would I want to hear an argument as to why they would like the answer? They are absolutely. >> Yes. I don't even need to expand on it. Yes. I would I would love to hear a single argument to why they wouldn't be relevant. Like >> let's see. Let's see what he's got. >> Or are they just an antiquated relic of the arcade era? If you were hoping for a definitive answer one way or the other, >> you'd be disappointed because the truth is it depends. >> If the truth an it depends as an answer because it's the useless answer because it doesn't matter for the context of English. If it depends meaning there are situations in which it is relevant then it is relevant as a thing. Like if you decided there are three games and only one of them has high scores as relevant and proven worthy. It's like well then the answer is yes. >> It is relevant. It is still relevant. Yeah. Literally if there was one game that was released this year out of like 10,000 that had a scoring system then the answer is yes. It's still relevant. It can't be it depends because it depends means oh well sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. It's like so yes, it is relevant. >> It's the answer that threads the needle to have the least to say because of course it [ __ ] depends. You haven't actually explained anything about the nature of why it would or wouldn't be relevant to any given project, let alone in general. >> Yeah, you're hitting on the fact that he'll always say that's his answer to every [ __ ] thing that ever existed. Like >> you go think about it. You go figure it out. smart for asking you the question. >> It It's such a frustrating answer because it makes you [ __ ] It has such a veneer of nuance to it, but there isn't actually a nuance because it's the copout out of doing the thinking >> without elaboration. It's just a copout. >> If there's nuance that comes from it, that was you doing the work, not him. >> Yes. >> Yep. And then you go, "Wow, thanks. Um, thanks Game Makers Toolkit. Wow, thank you for teaching me so much. >> Makes sense in some games and doesn't work for others. >> Crazy. >> Name a single game. >> Are you going to give any examples of why >> both pros and cons? >> Simplest game you can think of. You still want to have your stats if you can. >> People appreciate games that save stats from previous matches and whatnot so you can go back and see your match history. It's just a very common thing in video games. I'd like to see an argument as to why it wouldn't be useful. It's crazy. certain like multiplayer games like Dota or League or whatever, you have it implemented in the matchmaking as well. So yes, depending on where you are in the leaderboard, you will be paired with other people as well >> and you can go assess your performance based on your stats. It's just a common thing and I just don't understand how anyone could think this isn't useful, >> a scoring, >> but this isn't he's not going to explore this in this video. This is where you should you should actually present a different perspective, but he's not doing anything. I can't believe we're still in this state. >> Is he arguing that certain types of games don't need a scoring system? Is that >> what he's going to say? He says where it doesn't matter and then there are other games where it matters. So it depends. You go figure out which games you think. >> Here's lesson number two including such a system tool kit in your game. >> And so with this video, I learned the lesson that there's no such thing as a right or wrong, >> okay, >> game mechanic. as it's all contextual. There are there are certain instances where a mechanic will work and there are other instances where it would be totally inappropriate. So like depending on the game you're making, they can absolutely be the wrong mechanic. >> There's no way that he adheres to this. There will be videos where he'll say that they made the wrong decision. Surely >> there must be one. There must be a place where he's actually said that a mechanic doesn't work at some point in his entire life. >> He does fear committing >> to references and examples. He's not doing his job at all. Like I frames is a very useful mechanic in video games, but not every video game is going to benefit from having eye frames like and you can show different ones. He's not doing a damn thing. I I think that's why this is like profoundly useless because like charitably speaking I think what he's trying to mean is that is however the [ __ ] this even squares out video game mechanics in the abstract whatever that is like there is no such thing as an abstractly right or wrong mechanic because >> sure but that's meaningless >> yeah that's doesn't [ __ ] mean anything because >> right or wrong is a question of fitness to purpose >> so of course it's already like presuming that there is some intention behind What's our goal? Does it meet the goal >> per if you're playing GTA 6 and then all of a sudden it says right and now convince Gollum then >> then it becomes an 11 out of 10 game is what you're saying. >> Yeah, true. >> [ __ ] masterpiece. >> Moders make it happen. >> It totally depends on what sort of experience you want players to have. I've revisited this point a number of times. >> Oh, he's revisited this one. >> He's using Bandicoot 4 as well. You understand if you say that you learned that lesson from the first video and then you've revisited the point repeatedly. That comes across kind of cynically as like farming out videos essentially. >> Yeah. >> But he has to go back over it. People are not learning. >> I don't even necessarily want to insinuate that, but that's the way it comes across to me is like, okay, >> I've already covered this. Now I'm going to cover it again in the same way and again in the same way and again in the same way. I mean, >> we've been over it, but like every single person who've ever, especially the devs, whoever posts saying like, "Oh, this was actually really useful when we were designing blah blah." I just want to like pin them down and just say, "Tell me what you learned from him right now explicitly. What was it? >> You can't leave this room alive until you tell me." >> And whatever it was, whatever you choose, like you're going to have to convince me you didn't know. Like if someone says to me, he's like, "Well, sometimes mechanics are not appropriate in some places and they are appropriate in other places." It's like, "Oh, you needed him to say that. You had to get him to do it." I see. >> Thanks. Oh, what a revolution there, Sparky. Are lives outdated game design? Should rogue likes save your progress between runs? Should a game have a fixed >> And I'm Ben, you said maybe, maybe not. >> Maybe. Should a game have a fixed camera? >> Maybe, maybe not. >> Probably. Some should, some shouldn't. >> Yeah, explore that. >> The answer is it depends. So lesson number two is what do you think the camera system should be in whatever game you're playing? >> Yeah. An more interesting should have a fixed camera. >> Ju just imagine the insanity of applying this [ __ ] like concept to any other camera perspectives. Like should a game have an isometric perspective. Suddenly it sounds like twice as insane. But the only reason you get away with saying something like this is because fixed cameras are stigmatized. >> So like their presence is already in question. came out. So now it's it's topical and you can kind of because it feels the same as like scoring system or lives. It's like oh there was like a new platformer that came out that has lives and people say people say oh why do we even do lives anymore cuz that was an arcade. So then make a video about it and then say the answer is it depends. Anyway, thanks for coming. >> Wait. >> Camera perspective. The answer is always the same. It depends on the type of thing. I appreciate that >> of game you're making. It's tempting to use a game mechanic because it's trendy or to ignore a game mechanic entirely because it feels out of date. But the only way to judge a mechanic is to ask whether or not it can contribute to the experience you're trying to see as well. He didn't even give you the conclusion. He gave you that you got to ask the question. You you've got to be doing the figure it out. All right. Let's go again. >> So, lesson my experience is >> Lesson two is that mechanics are sometimes good and they're sometimes not. Anyway, point three. >> Holy [ __ ] >> That was really That was really helpful, man. Can you I got I need to be writing this down. Can you talk slower so I can >> not We need to carve this into into stone like carvings so that way we can >> Lesson one mechanics change the experience. Lesson two, sometimes mechanics are appropriate and sometimes they're not. You have to figure that out. >> This is Just examples. Examples, please. Sir, I beg you. >> He just gave you your examples. He just >> [ __ ] you. Lesson three. >> Lesson four. >> You want him to make the game for you? Come on. >> I made a video about Insomniac's first Spider-Man game. >> And I came to the conclusion that the game was pretty disappointing because the web swinging system >> That is incredible. I can't believe that. I can't believe that he came to the conclusion that this game was disappointing. That's like kind of a hot take >> for him. Yeah. >> Isn't the first one quite well liked? Really? Quite well. >> That's what I'm saying. I'm stunned. I'm actually stunned that he took a stance on this game and that it was that it was underwhelming in some way. >> I don't even play him. And even I've like trickled down. I know that this one has a good reputation. >> I can't believe that. Okay, now I'm curious. You you Okay, maybe I'll take everything. You rascal. >> All right, let's see what he has to say. You sly dog. >> Simple. I mean, you can swing through Manhattan just by holding down a button. The game employs dozens of hidden physics hacks to aid your every >> By the way, I I actually like kind of I think that this is well, it depends what he means by this. I think that uh it is a fair point to make that um this is not a challenging system >> uh at all and that there's something to be said for traversal systems that actually ask something of you. It's funny because Insomniac, there's a really good comparison. Sunset Overdrive, which is better than this game by the way. Um, that game is like super cool and kind of underrated, that has like a traversal system where um, and it has a point system as well that's tied to that traversal system where you essentially gain more for being constantly like in motion and staying off of the ground. That's a game that doesn't want you to essentially just be running around on the uh on the street. It would rather you be grinding on rails or bouncing off of um like uh bouncing off of um like shade essentially, you know, like and and and like flipping and swinging off of stuff. Um and it's uh it's it's it's like in this game, yeah, if you just hold R uh R2, like you'll you'll constantly keep going. There are ways to go faster, but the the the skill floor is basically non-existent. You can't fail really at uh at websing in this game. you should be rewarded for efficient pathing and there's no room for that when you just have a basic concept like this where you're just holding a button. You should there should always be like a skill cap and like potential and it just makes the the replay value so much better in every video game. You you appreciate that. >> Yeah, web slinging is a traversal system. I mean, it's really intuitive to think that it could be a form of skill expression because it is for Spider-Man. So to make it that way for the player seems like it. >> No, but the thing is that the thing is I I understand the intention because they wanted it to be fun basically for everybody and it kind of is like it is fun to swing around in praise for a lot of likely interested people. >> I've seen people point out that there are other Spider-Man games, the older ones, the ones that could maybe seem more janky that are actually there's more to wrap your head around. This is this is like a I not necessarily that this game is easy to master, but it's easy to get so close to mastery that mastery doesn't seem like that amazing essentially as a as an accomplishment in this game. I wonder if that's the direction that he's going in here. >> Yeah, like it's really easy to essentially completely solve the whole mechanic set. you arrive at like a fairly interesting question at that point, which is how accessible should like the baseline fun experience of a system like this be because obviously ideally you want it to be completely accessible and then also really rewarding to master, but that's an extremely difficult inflection point to hit. So which direction do you tune in? Because I think I think it would be fair to say for a Spider-Man game, if the majority of your player base aren't going to be able to like web swing at all when they first pick up their controller, something's wrong because a fundamental part of the fantasy is like inaccessible from the first moments of gameplay, which is very quickly going to turn some people off. However, you overdesign in that direction and suddenly you don't get to execute on mastery that makes you, for lack of better phrasing, feel like Spider-Man for the way you actually interact with your traversal because there's no expression to it. >> Extremely hard thing to balance. Not a lot of games are going to nail it. And the ones that do usually have a lot of longevity because of it. Easy access, a lot of mastery. >> A lot of devs are just terrified of having their players learn things. >> Uh, yes. I would say that um I would say that as much as it could be said to be almost a unique Spider-Man problem, which is that you want to make sure that basically everybody can access the fantasy of swinging around. I think that Insomniac over the last how many years has uh I think that that sort of philosophy of no, everybody should be able to have access to it pretty much even to the detriment of people who want to really get immersed in it. Uh I I think is reflected more broadly in the design philosophy of their newer games. Um, I mean, case in point in this game, one very easy way to get through like every combat encounter is it's really easy to stay in the air. Compared to a lot of other games of this type where staying in the air is kind of a show of mastery, in this one, it's really easy. And one way that you can get through basically every encounter is stay up in the air. I think it's hold the circle button to pull the enemy up into the air. Beat them individually and just make sure that you dodge every time that there's a guy on the ground that's got a gun that might try to get you and you can just stay in the air forever and take everybody down and they can never hit you. All you got to do is just occasionally dodge a shot that gets fired at you. That's something that you can do in these games. It's pretty bad. Like that's pretty bad. >> To contrast with something like Devil May Cry, in in Devil May Cry, you've got a jump and then you've probably got a second jump later into the game. After that, you're more or less out of dodges in the air, unless you're playing Dante and you've got trickster on, in which case you have an air dash, and that's about it. You need enemy step to like refresh all of those things to have more aerial mobility. So, until you're at the point where you can like utilize that feature to freely move in the air a lot, you're essentially putting yourself in a position of like you can't maneuver while you're holding an enemy up there. So, if an enemy does reach you while you're dealing with an airborne enemy because it's safer in the air, you're in trouble and now you have to figure out solutions to that as a problem. Most of these games just let you be way too safe in the air and let you spend too much time in the air without mastery. >> That's a contrast here is in this game. You can just infinitely dodge forever when you need to in the air and so you're basically invincible. >> Yeah. Uh definitely cry is actually a really good example. um super super limited in the things that you get that benefit you in the air, you it takes a while to unlock. So you have to really depend on eye frames for rolling eye frames for everything and um any combos that you can do in the air are going to be super limited. And again, it takes mechanical skill, the juggling, the timing, anticipating the other opponents. And if you're just flying around webs slinging the entire time, you really lose that enjoyment factor trying to balance the >> It's a good example of the contrast because a very good Devil May Cry player, like Devil May Cry 5 particularly is the one I'd be talking about, you can stay in the air basically forever because enemy step is a mechanic that lets you jump off of an enemy that's nearby you. Um, when you do that, it refreshes all of your aerial maneuver options. So, you get all of your jumps back and you get your dash back. So, if you can just keep jumping off of enemies heads, including the one you're currently attacking, you can just stay in the air basically as long as you [ __ ] want. >> And see, you have to reach being able to do that. >> Yeah, it's mechanically rewarding. You can't just pick that up, the controller the first time, and do that. That's a skill set you're going to like actually be able to achieve eventually hours into the game. >> I just think there would have been a lot less complaining about Golem if it had that kind of system in it. like you know >> jangle juggle people. >> You want to see Gollum web slinging? >> I want to see him juggling people with dual wielding pistols. >> This will be an interesting thing to see if La Fay will cuz that has more you know unlike Kratos in the newer ones that has more of her up in the air and I will be very curious >> cuz it's a hard thing to manage. If you can just stay in the air forever and it's not very challenging at all, that can like break your game. Kind of like a dunk a bit in in the Insomniac Spider-Man games. >> You make when you fix this damn door. >> Wa. >> Anyway, >> and it's impossible to splat Spider-Man into the side of a skyscraper. Now, I thought the lesson of that video was that in order to give the player a thrilling power fantasy, you had to provide significant challenge with complex inputs and high >> I don't know why you would have ever thought that the [ __ ] >> especially considering the reputation for that was it blew up as like you feel like Spider-Man. You you feel like there was another video quite famous for describing the experience. >> Why did he he ruined it? He was he was because he made like an observation that was worthwhile and then it's like yeah so the lesson I thought initially was that for a power fantasy to be effective it had to be challenging. I don't know why you would have ever thought that. That is not what >> I mean power fantasy is almost infamously very easy right >> well you can achieve it multiple ways like >> I would say the truth is that surely it's it's kind of like it why would you ever think that that's essential I think is is all my point is why would you have ever thought that in order for a power fantasy to be effective the game must be hard >> yeah there's a there's even something to be said about the idea of a power fantasy being like an in-game power fantasy and almost like a meta power fantasy where if you get really really good at a very difficult game and you're just going ham then you feel a power fantasy in the sense of me as a player I have become so good that I can dominate the game instead of my character in the narrative that I'm seeing he is the powerful thing I'm controlling and he's doing >> is that power fantasies ah god damn it our fantasies depend on the kind of game that it is you know like cuz you could if you were thinking of a power fantasy simply as being like strong. That would be like too narrow of a way of thinking about it when it comes to games. You, you know, you get power fantasies from like playing Sim City, right? Like, but it's a different kind of power fantasy compared to if you're playing something like Halo. Um, obvious like there's all kinds of different power f you get power fantasies from stealth games that don't have to do with being strong, but have to do with being like successful essentially at moving through an area and not being caught. Um, and and when that's the case, it's like, yeah, the nature of how mechanics are either straightforward or complicated obviously is going to depend on the kind of game that it is and the kind of experience that it's trying to facilitate. >> It's especially poignant in like this era of rogue likes we're kind of in where like rogue likes facilitate a very specific kind of power fantasy a lot of the time, which is you've broken the game. Um, the nature of like random variants, like combinatorial stuff like that, is sometimes you run up against you find some setup that just makes the game basically cease to exist. Like it's it's impossible for you to lose at that point. >> You're just grabbing Raven's Watch right now. For me, >> a lot of the conversation about those games revolves around the, you know, quote unquote crazy run. Oh my god, look what I just did. I I generated like 7 million strength as the ironclad and I one-shot the heart. that's not actually possible. You know, stuff like that. Like that's where the conversation comes from. It's the explicit trivialization of the game. >> It's the explicit absence of challenge because you have like found a setup that means the game can't oppose you anymore. >> Yeah, you can certainly do that. Or you deliberately like use exploits to get better gear or [ __ ] like that as well to make the game way more easy. And that's a kind of power fantasy as well. >> Mistakes for failure. But the real lesson of this video was >> I was wrong. >> Yes, >> finally. >> Because the game was disappointing to me. A hardcore gamer. >> Don't also like don't self-describe as a hardcore gamer. That's embarrassing. That's embarrassing to do in the >> Why did he have to do it? >> I am a hardcore gamer. I game for 30 years. But there there's so many simple and straightforward games that one can play despite having even 30 years of experience and you'll still just keep on going like with with something. So you won't say like I can't enjoy this because I've played more difficult games. >> There are things in agree that the narrative doesn't impact the experience. That's for sure. in-depth movement systems with >> quick like you guys also just did a your own it depends but it actually worked because you had examples and things to say about it and not just it depends and then cutting away to the next thing. >> Exactly. Moving on. >> Hey, you better figure it out yourself. >> Thing is you you can say it depends while making definitive statements, but he doesn't want to do that really. It'll be like it depends and now you go figure it out anyway. I helped you out >> cuz if any of us would make this video so like oh it depends if you want to do this this this and this you should probably do this or if you want why you can do this this this and then you can do your defense you can't just go you can do this and this uh it depends anyway this was lesson one here's the next lesson >> that would be defend >> cool thanks >> listen listen listen he's the idea guy with no ideas >> oh I hate those people in the [ __ ] board meetings things. They just turn up and say like, "What do you think, Dave?" >> Well, I don't want to I don't want to say anything, sir. Or else I might have to defend it. >> He does have a good idea, though. Like, he doesn't like this because he's good at video games. Therefore, by extension, if you like it, you're not. >> Yeah. That's immensely called this ending. Is it like you Yeah, you guys go ahead and enjoy it. I I'm kind of a Hogwart gamer, so like I I play real games. >> That's a good catch. That is a good catch. >> Yeah. Yeah. ings, but I never asked the question, was Spider-Man actually made for me or was it made for dimwitted cavebrained Mongaloid? Apparently the response of I didn't like it, therefore it wasn't made for me. Please don't take >> Dude, he's already gone further than that. Like that that was something he said after to sort of, you know, cover it up. But he's already said, uh, people who are good at games don't like Spider-Man swinging. Sorry. It's like, oh >> well, >> which is not even necessarily true. Oh, no. Like I said, there's plenty of games I'll play as someone who's played a bunch of games, and I don't there's there's all kinds of context where you'll be like, if if every single thing that you do, like even the options menu was challenging, it would start to get pretty [ __ ] tiring. And games choose where they want to put their challenges. It's okay. >> Sometimes you just want to play. >> And that's the lesson I learned in the last 10 years. >> Play something chill like look at Vampire Survivors. You you just move around and things explode on screen. I [ __ ] love that game. Real gamers appreciate all different types of games at different levels. Some want the PVP challenge and sometimes you just want to just click a button and walk around and get stats. You know, it's just simple. >> Sometimes sometimes people have mismatched expectations about what they actually want versus what they think they want. Um, Slay the Spire has had some amount of controversy with this. Slay the Spire 2 that is with uh Ascension 10. A lot of people think they want to play the game on the hardest difficulty, but then when they start losing a lot because the game's really hard on the hardest difficulty, they get upset at the amount at which they're allowed to win with very obviously substandard play because we all have to admit that we're playing very very substandardly. Um, so like what do you even you need to like really think about what you actually want out of the game and make considerations as to whether or not you're actually optimizing for what you want. Like maybe you can just turn the ascension down and play on a lower difficulty and achieve what you want, which is to get the crazy run and blow up the enemies. >> Yep. >> Have fun like that. And that's completely fine. >> It's chill. >> Because a game is built for a target audience, a specific type of person. That's crazy, man. And if you can stop smart, that's crazy. >> I'm not even sure that he's even gotten close to that. All he said is like just because like you be like, Mark, what if I'm a hardcore gamer and I like the system? What then? >> All you've said is the hardcore aren't going to like it. And it's just funny him being like, I'm a hardcore gamer. And it's like, what do you play? It's like Spider-Man and Mario. You [ __ ] It's It's also like immensely funny to, you know, talk about target audiences and games being made for specific kinds of people while appealing to this kind of AAA game which is made for as many people as is [ __ ] possible. Please, everyone buy the [ __ ] video game. I beg you. >> Consider that a blockbuster PS4 movie tie-in is probably aimed at a more cas. >> It's not a movie. >> [ __ ] audience. >> Yeah, that's what he's saying. It's also not >> it's not aimed at a casual gamer, but it's going to be designed in a way that a casual gamer would be able to get at least something out of it. That doesn't mean it has to be easy. >> Also, just you know, uh what's it called? Uh Raven Rabbids, the the Mario like sort of XCOM game. >> Mario Rabbit Kingdom Battle. >> The hardest that gets is [ __ ] hard to the point where I take this is a huge challenge set of missions and like one of the last ones. It took me ages to beat it. But I'm just sitting here thinking is like Mark Brown be like inherently in these games they're just meant for [ __ ] casual cave dwellers. Like they're not going to be challenging anyone to do anything. What are you doing? >> Boil it down further than that. It's just Mario. Like what is the secret of Mario's jump? The secret is it is it can be somebody's first game while being actually quite challenging. How is that possible? It's like yeah, it's kind of it is kind of the magic of these types of games that they have a low skill floor. But I wouldn't say that Mario's got like the highest skill ceiling, but it's high. Can get pretty high depending on the game. >> Uh somewhat >> Yeah. Champions Road pretty tough. >> Like like somewhat bitter like uh So I was wrong. Fine. The swinging isn't bad. It's just meant for idiots. >> Uh what he's actually big mad, but he's doing it in his uh voice. >> Maybe. >> Yeah, maybe. That would be that would be fun if that's what's actually happening here. >> Casual gamer. Well, then Insomniac should really be praised for finding a way to give those players the incredible sens. So, yeah, good job. >> Spider-Man, even if it didn't work for me. >> Happy for you, bro. Great. >> Frame it as like an achievement. >> It's not exactly difficult to make an extremely basic web slinging setup that does everything for you. Not to minimize the work that goes into games in general. Like, pretty much every stage of it is like a lot of stuff going on. It's very difficult. But like comparatively, it's a lot harder to make an intricate system than it is to make a simple one. >> Yeah. >> To actually design a simple one might be a bit might be more difficult, but we didn't really care to do that because it's sort of like pasting like press R1 to Spider-Man. That's like the experience, which sort of implicitly denies the player actual access to the experience. But whatever. >> When it comes to making a video game, you have to decide who this game is for. and tune your mechanics appropriately. >> You learned this. You had to learn this before you started making videos about games. >> Like, how do I do that? How do I intuitive my game is for >> everyone? >> My friends that are not online watch all this content in general and don't really care that much about like as as much about videos as we do. Even they're like, "Oh, yeah. This is probably not >> targeted to me because they have a brain >> concept." Yeah. That's intuitive for like any business or any like media or anything. >> Any human with a [ __ ] functioning brain should be intuitive. >> This is him struggling to get to a top 10 and him just putting [ __ ] in. Like there's no >> I scroll through my Steam store and it's like, "Oh, what's this game? Oh, I don't like this. It's not made for me." That I'm not going to make a [ __ ] video about that. >> Yeah, it's okay. >> You've reached euphoria. Netflix, any type of streaming service, any type of games like Steams, like you're obviously going to have things that that that are marketed towards you and that aren't like this just such a simple concept. It's not worth mentioning in a video. >> Well, apparently you need you could make an interesting video out of that idea. If you were interested in going in to say, wait, what is the genre that I like or what is the style that I like? Why do I like it? What actually composes this thing? And and what is a counter example? and what do people who say they like it find joy in about the thing they say they like that you you can make an interesting video out of it but he didn't he just said well I'm a hardcore gamer so you know get better >> you can't please everyone about a kind of game that is trying its absolute best to please everyone I don't know >> the lessons here like it was already the case that it was this way but now that they're even more condensed it's it's actually the McDonald's of learning there's nothing really here at all but it's presented such that like everyone consumes it and goes Yeah. Yeah. Thumbs up. You did what you're supposed to do. >> Lesson four. >> Well, I don't know actually because earlier this >> lesson four is whatever you want it to be. >> We want four. Well, that kind of >> we couldn't even make it to five before giving up. >> At least two of his first three were [ __ ] and he couldn't even make it to four. This is >> the middle spot on the bingo space. I don't you >> here I made a video called Super Mario's invisible difficulty settings and in this >> this is one for the hardcores just just so we're you know being clear here >> this one I looked at how Nintendo tries to make its flagship franchise fun for everyone like modern Mario games are made for families and newbies so they are designed in such a way that it's pretty easy to make your way to the final boss and to the end of the story but if you're a seasoned plumbing pro who's been stomping Cooper since 1985. >> Total Cooper. >> Just don't do this [ __ ] man. You're a seasoned clubbing pro. Why does he sound like >> just crazy? >> It'd be okay to say it. If you said it just like normally and not like you're acting like you're clever saying it, then it would make you actually seem like you're more clever because it comes more naturally out of your mouth. But >> it seems like it's coming from insecurity. Like he needs to remind us like every five minutes. He's nailing the performance of the awkward >> clever things. >> He's like the awkward substitute teacher and he's he's like doing a really good job of convincing us. There's like, oh yeah, you're the guy who doesn't really like you're desperate to make these jokes work, but they're just not coming through, huh? >> Well, you're not going to be bored. And that's because there's loads of optional harder content to sink your teeth into. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Uh Wow. >> Yeah. >> So far, he's told us what is in the game. >> Nice. I think what I enjoy about this is that if you want to talk about like optional difficulty, I think that there are way more interesting things to talk about than oh here's like a level off to the side that you don't have to do that the game even tells you how difficult it is. One that I like to think about is Crash, Bandicoot, and Crates feels like a good example of optional difficulty of you can Yeah, you can go and try and get them all if you want. Um, but at any point you can just stop. You know, if it gets too hard in a level, you can just sort of give up on that. And yeah, you don't get the little goodies, you know, like you don't get the gems, but you can just sort of choose how much you want to engage with that >> um in the level at any given time compared to like to me this is well, dare I say this is pretty obvious. Oh, optional optional levels are harder. That's hidden difficulty. It's like >> Yeah, it's not even hidden. Well, maybe in the previous clip he played, which is, funnily enough, is an example of where leaderboards and score systems are still relevant in gaming, which is that you don't need optional bonus missions with a ramped up difficulty setting to have a more difficult and enjoyable experience in a game. You can just race yourself or you can challenge yourself to like how quickly can I do this or how many people can I kill and how little amount of time can I do it. totally arbitrary little rules that you set up for yourself and sometimes that the game will set for you because that's part of the reason you have a a timer on an old Mario game or a score system or a number of coins you collect is because not only can you beat the core level of the game, which can be quite easy, but you can make it a really difficult experience by saying, "Right, I'm going for the [ __ ] high score while I'm doing this." >> So, you don't need optional levels to make this point. He could have combined, in fact, two of the things he said in this video to make an interesting point, but he may have already forgotten what he said earlier. There's also a point in how you implement those optional things because if the rest of the game is too easy for I know hard veterans of that genre that game to actually play through because just like yeah I'm just going to hit these enemies once and they just fall over. I don't really care to do that for five hours to get to some of the things that might be challenging in the end. >> So you still need to you still want the the veterans to be kind of engaged in your game. Of course, >> it's back to Devil May Cry, like the style system is a really cool concept where it's something you can completely ignore if you're just playing the game or if you're high level with the game. It's something that you really crave to try to nail because it just makes it so much more satisfying in terms of the visual for anyone watching and just the gameplay itself. It's just less repetitive and like being able to be really creative with your attacks is satisfying, but it's also again something that could be ignored for people who are just, you know, casual players. That's a balance. That's part of the reason I really love those games is like again easy to learn, hard to master. It sounds simple enough, but it's a hard thing to to nail in a video game. >> Tricky coins to collect. >> You said at the start of the video, are scores still relevant? I don't know. And now he's outlining instances where scores are still >> Well, you said it depends. This would be one of the the positive examples. I guess >> it's the ultimate it's the ultimate back door to not being committ. >> It depends. >> It depends. I think it stems from a complete misunderstanding of like what it depends even describes cuz in that case it's a binary of if it is ever if it is ever relevant in one game then the answer is yes whereas like well no if it's relevant in some games then that means it depends >> that's why the first thing I said is I want a single example of >> you say about everything >> yeah game mechanics can be relative maybe >> tough bonus levels to play a secret postgame world to unlock and challenges to finish. So, with this video, I learned that options and bonus content can be used to make the game appealing to those who are learn. >> So, for those who want more, you can give them options. >> Whoa, options can be used. >> And this is what we got after he said he was running out, >> you know, than the target audience. Oh, and hats off to Insomniac, who included a setting for harder swinging in Spider-Man 2. >> Yeah, you should have brought that up in the last part. >> That was weird. Why did that >> All right, then. Number five. >> Five. >> But what about the other way around? >> What if you make a game that's really difficult and then find that certain players are unable to play or >> Well, Dark Souls did this genius thing where you upgrade your equipment and then you can make it easier for yourself. Is he just going to say that? Is that what it is? We probably covered this [ __ ] 10 years ago >> or finish it. >> I grappled with this when asking the question, should Dark Souls have any? And he's >> Dark Souls. He's >> If you didn't know anybody in chat, he is the like 90% of the inspiration for Good Gelb back in the day. He's uh >> I thought he sounded familiar. >> Dark Th because I I say it's his meme, but loads of people doing it. Every single and Theo would know this because it would have killed his soul. every analysis done by anyone for any reason on games, it would come back to Dark Souls for a good period of time. >> Yeah, >> this is actually like Dark Souls if you think about it. Or Dark Souls did it better. >> Dark Souls. >> Yeah, I need Dark Souls so I can stay pure. >> And I need to get a little bit of sething out of my system. He says, "Should Dark Souls have an easy mode?" pictured Dark Souls 3. >> Yeah. All right, man. >> Maybe there's some kind of subtle symbolism there. I don't know. >> Easy mode. I mean, From Soft's haunting fantasy epic is intentionally challenging. >> Haunting fantasy epic. >> Offended you clearly. Describe that way. I guess >> it's kind of it look that looks haunting. Love the spooky spider. >> Yeah, >> that's haunting. >> Chaos witch quay lag. >> Quay lag. >> Not that haunting. You can see your boobies a little bit. >> I like that. That's good. That's good game design. That's not even a depends thing. That's just good. specific experience of being scared out of your wits, but then having a feeling of triumph when you finally overcome those impossible odds. Right now, sure, you could provide >> impossible. This game isn't that hard for [ __ ] sake. I think it depends on >> I think he was being hyperbolic when he said impossible. Right now, >> he's using a hyperbolic view mechanically is so not much. It just asks that you play by its rules. That's it. an easier difficulty mode. But if players picked that option, wouldn't it rob them of the intended experience? Well, I learned an important lesson. >> Oh god, what do you learn? Let's go. >> In the video, what makes Celeste's assist mode special? This precision platformer is also crushingly difficult. But unlike Dark Souls, it features a wildly permissive set of options that let you make the game as easy as you need it to be. But here's the kicker. The developers carefully explain the point of this mode before you turn it on. They make it clear. >> I guess it's okay. >> What? Yeah. What are we learning? >> We're learning here that if you have if you have difficulty settings, the developer should explain why you should use them. >> Okay. So I need someone to explain >> which of course then invites many questions which is how can a game developer essentially account for what players make of their own ability. >> Ultimately the player needs to make the choice on whether or not they think that they can meet a challenge and whether or not they want to go for a certain level of difficulty and whether or not that matches what you would expect of the average player in terms of their expectations when they enter into your game. Am I not safe in saying that we have gotten stun locked on the the [ __ ] discussion on difficulty in games once per year like for this anniversary? I'm pretty sure >> someone someone catch me up on the on the Celeste game. I only know it as a puzzle platformer with like dashing everything. It's a very >> It's about being hard and question. Why would you put everything on infinite and just go through it? Does it have like any like insane story to follow that you want to go through really quickly? >> Well, so the thing is >> I'd say uh Celeste is like a game where you bet the experience is beneficial if you play it the way that it was intended, which is that it's hard. A lot of the story is meant to be about sort of overcoming challenges and pushing through kind of with a positive mindset. >> Oh, this just made it worse. >> Yeah. Or you could just turn on easy mode. >> The thing is is that I would say I would I like Celeste a lot. Um but I would I would not recommend I would not recommend using these settings really like to uh to go through it. I think that uh I think it would probably be detrimental to your experience >> when it's when it's actually about beating the odds or whatever and that you just get rid of all your odds during the play during the game. Like what's the that you shouldn't do this like actually this seems like a horrible idea. >> Yeah, don't be such a [ __ ] [ __ ] >> Well, the thing is is that the game doesn't have that attitude. The game is much more you can do it. Keep trying. Keep going. >> Oh, but I don't need to try. I could just turn off damage and have infinite dashes. >> Knowing the options there influences your, you know, behavior and if you know that's always there. There was a video that nearly made it into the rotation, but it wasn't like it was mostly just stating facts about how games do difficulty in a very very boring way. But there was one part of the video that was said said like many games are very offensive and abbleist when it comes to saying that >> those are the worst videos suggest like a lower difficulty. And then they used examples of like Wolfenstein being like, oh little, you know, hippie plant baby mode or whatever. They were like that's that's disgusting and offensive. And it's like I wish we had more of that. I [ __ ] wish. It's just having fun, dude. Just being like, "Oh, little baby, you're going to be okay." And then if you actually turn it off and write a letter, you have issues. It's like you you should be fine. Just play with the game. The devs are having fun. They're not actually trying to destroy every part like part of your self-esteem. You'll be okay. I think I've I feel like I've said this every year for a few years now on this because we keep coming back to the difficulty conversation, but like the vast majority Yeah, I don't know why I keep doing that, but the vast majority of games that you will like actually see and actually have a shot at playing are very completable by everyone. Like there are very very few people who would be incapable of completing the vast majority of games that you will see out and about today. Yes, that includes every game because yeah rather than a matter of actual ability, >> it's an it's a matter of how much time you are willing to invest. You need to reframe the decision point as to whether you are literally physically capable of it because you are into how much time are you willing to put towards doing it. And if you don't want to put the necessary time into completing a given challenge, that's fine, dude. You're allowed to not want to do that. There's quadrillions of games out there you can play. I also think the scenario where you're the you're the apparently the game that gets upset when it says, "Would you like to go on baby mode because you're so bad?" And then someone turns up like, "Don't worry, I got this." Hey, stop making fun of this [ __ ] You're like, >> "He's not a hardcore gamer like me." >> Yeah, he can't handle it. So, stop saying these things. You're like, I I I can I can handle it. You know what? I'm going to prove >> I don't know about you guys, but I never turned on Infinite Jumps in Celeste. So, I'm kind of >> out point it out in chat as well to add on to Theo's point that it's also how much attention you're paying to the game as well. >> Um, because usually you you you'll figure it out if you just pay attention to what the game is essentially asking from you. Uh, even in games where it's like, you know, almost [ __ ] difficult. You know, I'm going back through Halo 2 on Legendary. That's that could be pretty annoying. But likeough it forces you. It forces you to understand the game. It forces you to you have no choice but to um and I guess if you don't you'll be stuck forever but like at that point I don't even know why you're playing video games. Like you might as well just do something else. How Celeste is supposed to be played but also offer a way to reduce the difficulty if you need it. Say if you're new to games or you live with a disability or you're more interested in the story line than the challenging jumps I was trying to say earlier. >> It's very awkward to me with Celeste because I feel like the story doesn't really work if uh if it's not hard. So much of that game is about like overcoming challenges and obviously the challenge of climbing the mountain itself is meant to be part of that. that if you're doing it to the point that you it's basically you negate the difficulty, you're hurting the experience. It's it's really this case like you can't it's it is really not easy to cleanly divide story and gameplay in most games, even like boring games like Dragon Age Veil Guard or whatever, you know, like where they'd probably have a mode like give me the story, like yeah, >> the mechanics and all of these sorts of things are vehicles that can be used to communicate meaning. they are part of the experience in a fundamental way. If you take a game like Rainworld for example is the example I keep coming back to again. Uh that game is extremely difficult but it's extremely difficult because the idea like nature is perilous essentially like that's the idea. You are a vulnerable creature and you have to behave as such and it induces you to do so by making you very incapable by default essentially like your movement speed is really slow. You'll get like you'll sort of stumble over objects if there are things in your path and whatnot and you die essentially in one hit if any predator or whatever reaches you. That is the language of the game to communicate to you the experience of being a prey animal that we humans no longer have access to in our day-to-day lives. If you turn the difficulty down, all of this is gone. It can't do that anymore. >> No, there's story and then there's gameplay and they exist on separate islands. They have nothing to do with each other. They're completely compartmentalized. >> And easy modes don't have to pose a threat to your intended experience. You just have to find a smart way to push play >> a smart way. That's thanks, bro. >> An idiot way. >> Find a way. He hasn't explained how. He's again just said it's a thing that you got to do sometimes and it might be okay. You've just got to kind of work. You know, >> I like how you said smart way and menu that gives you infinite dashes. It's like, oh, that's very smart. Good. Um, I think what's funny is I didn't know that this existed cuz I think I just hit play immediately. I didn't even like entertain looking at what assist mode was. I don't think I knew that this was in this game. >> Um, I will say as well, like I can't speak to Celeste, so ignore this for that. But if I booted up any given game in lots of different IPs, take for example, the new Resident Evil comes in and it says, "Okay, uh, you know, what enemy health do you want?" And I'd be like, "Huh?" It says, "Do you want them to go down in one shot, five shots, or 10 shots?" I just be like, "I I don't even Yeah, that's Did you build the game for them being very fragile and like fast or dangerous? >> I almost I want them to craft the easy, medium, hard, or whatever or even just one difficulty so that I could be like what you've decided and worked on and balanced in your own, you know, team. I want to play that and then I want to be like, "Wow, that was [ __ ] or that was awesome." Or somewhere in between as opposed to like, "Don't worry, you can balance it along the way to fit your, you know, skill." I just be like, "I don't know. I don't even >> That's not my job. That's too much work. I don't want to have to do that." >> Yeah. But you hope they have enough understanding of their game to balance just making everybody spongy. Like that seems to be a lot of the times you turn it up. Just spongy enemies and like low health. >> Everyone told me to like [ __ ] modulate my difficulty in games like Elder Ring through summons and whatnot. It's like that's not my job. I don't want to have to be constantly making assessments for what's going to ruin my playthrough. That was your job to do that. I want to play >> buttons you press Theo. >> That statement has like that statement was like the worst for gamers, dude. Too many people took that seriously. >> Yeah, >> you control the buttons you put in the game. >> Yep. >> Yeah, the options. >> Yo. Yeah, get [ __ ] Doomsayers into seeing the version of the game that fits their needs best. >> Lesson six. >> Okay, let's move off that track and talk about something else. >> What track? >> One of the most popular subjects in game discourse. >> Isn't this Isn't this three lessons after you said he was running out? Uh, I don't know. I'm guessing that his point is like, we're done with difficulty. I sure hope we are because I'm so tired of it as a conversation. And it's like, now we're moving on to a different realm of game design. So, we're about to find out what that is. And I assume it's rogue likes >> is the topic of >> genres. Not a day. >> Oh god. Here we go. You can't even do anything with real topics. So, like talking about [ __ ] genre like Oh Jesus. I love talking about genre. It's our favorite EFAP topic. We love genre so much. >> I on Reddit without someone asking if a game truly counts as a rogike. And we can't go a week in the GMTK Discord without someone pointing out that Mario Kart is secretly an immersive sim or some >> spam those people and be done with it. >> You don't have to listen to them. >> Um, actually, all games are RPGs. So, yeah. >> Oh my god, that's a deep cut. Holy [ __ ] But in the video, do we need a soulslike genre? I learned that once it's fine for >> look, you got one. >> It's not about needing genres just exist. You can't do anything about it. >> What does it mean to say, do we need a Soulslike genre? Like, okay, well, I've got this one that I'm now going to add to my shelf of genres. Like, it's an abstraction. It doesn't really mean anything. >> It's why I sort of have a bone to pick with like rogike rogue light distinction people because like I'm sorry, you've lost. Like there is no game like Rogue being made anymore. Rogike means something completely different. That's nobody is going to understand like the game Rogue when you say rogike, >> right? >> It's not what anyone's thinking. I'm so sorry. >> Souls has that too. >> Yeah, >> which I guess inevitable. >> Do do we need a genre? It's like an absurd question. People just invent them. They just like kind of happen. >> It's just communication. It's just trying to tell someone what's in a thing in the quickest way possible, that's all. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, doesn't Steam like add and take take away genres like all the time? >> Of course they would, right? >> Course or whatever because >> there are certain ones that go away. They disappear, you know, and new ones come up. >> Well, is there >> Yeah, they're trends. Trends come and go. >> Is there a counterargument to this? Because I'm just thinking like >> using using Steam, we're correct. Okay. Um, you know, like if I was if I really like Dark Souls and I'm using Steam and I want to find more games that are like Dark Souls, I'm going to go and look at tags. I'm going to click on Souls like and I'm going to find more games that are like Dark Souls. Is there any argument to say that that's a bad thing to have exist? >> That that's exactly what genre genres extremely helpful. >> Well, h you know what I wonder? I wonder if the problem he's having is that um he's looking at it the other way around. Almost like a developer says, "I want to make a game in this genre." and then they need to find, you know, some set of descriptors for that genre that they need to rigidly adhere to or something like that. Instead of thinking about genre as something that comes after the game, you're thinking about it as something that comes before it. I wonder if that's the source of this problem. >> Or is she saying that Souls like should actually be a subgenre of something else? >> Yeah. Or Yeah. As if that even means as if that >> can pre Yeah. I guess I can't speak for anyone else's creative process in that way, but for me at least, ideas have never worked that way around, I guess. Like the the idea precedes its categorization rather than being derived from it, I guess. >> Um, on that note, by the way, we're going to have to lose two people to rotate in, two different people, cuz that's kind of going to be the wackiness of today. Um, Mr. Goer, always fun to hang out with you. Thanks, of course, for all of your years of service in the editing minds, but I'm afraid the mines call or maybe bad does. I forget your time zones. >> Yeah, it's been fun to be here again. >> And congrat congrats on the the 400 again. I'm looking forward to Theo being in pain. >> Be fun to see. >> Me, too. >> But I Yeah, >> but I I might be back later depending on how things look and going to a baptism. >> Oh, they won't get better. >> Well, >> this is a high point. >> It could be. We'll see. >> More on that if you'll still be here or not and if it's going to be full or whatever. >> Hell yeah. We might rotate everyone back. Who knows? >> Yeah, I might be back towards the end. We'll see. >> All right, then. >> Yeah. >> Have fun. >> Um and Mr. Brooks, I'm afraid. But I I will try and get you back as well, you know, because uh >> yeah, I'll take one for the team. It's all good. Eight years either way is [ __ ] insane. I can't believe how long it just seems like it's flashed by. It's nuts. But like, yeah, good stuff. Always fun. It'll be in the chat anyway, so just let me know when there's another spot. >> Yeah, we'll do. Thank you very much, dude. >> All right. Take it, >> man. See you later. >> Is to get preoccupied with genres. We don't want our game designers to be so obsessed. You see, when that video released in 2017, we were inundated with games that closely copied the FromSoft formula. games with hastily renamed. >> Just just so we're clear, we are still inundated with that. It is everywhere. There doesn't not a day goes by where someone doesn't say, "Hey, Mo, have you seen the new Souls Light game goomish?" And I'm just like, "I I haven't." Or every single version has been created at this point as well for tone. It's like, "Oh, you play as a cartoon rabbit and it's a dark soul." It's like, "Right, yeah, I figure." It's like you play as an amoeba. You collect a Dark Souls game like right. It's one of the most influential games of the last 15 years and is undeniable. >> Yep. >> I say this as, you know, Dark Souls is like one of my favorite games of all time, but I'm just, you know, it's it there's trauma >> versions of Souls, Bonfires, and Estus Flasks, and they all felt pretty same. >> An item from Dark Souls. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> They felt sy. Huh. >> Uh, >> a lot of people would have said the opposite that none of them quite achieved the power of Dark Souls. >> A lot of Yeah. A lot of what people seem to think is the problem is like the these don't hit the same, which >> yeah, >> maybe you could call them sy in that respect. I guess they're all like pale limitations, but that's just not a phrase I've seen bandied around much. >> You know, a phrase I'd like to see bandied around more is bandied. >> Yeah, it's a good one. >> I like that one. >> And bander snatch. Isn't that Isn't that a Netflix thing? Is that a word or do they make that up? >> It's from the uh that's like a guy, right? >> Carol, isn't it? is the bander. The bander snatch is a is a yellow leis carol's >> the looking glass. It's part of the w the Jabberwocki poem. >> Oh, I know Jabawoki. I didn't know Bander Stash, but then again, I don't think the Netflix bander stash had anything to do with that on like an an explicit level. It was like an interactive game. It was very strange. >> It was the uh the interactive episode of Black Mirror they did with um the dude who's Guardians 3. Yeah. >> Yes. Who? >> Oh, the guy that with the the the fish lens thing from Guardians 3. Yeah. >> That they then moved into the other stuff. Yes. >> That's because if you consider a genre to be a long list of >> Oh, look at this. Mark Cyborg. Hello there. >> Welcome. >> We're just uh you know two hours into anniversary flames and we decided to cover Mark the Cyborg. No, wait. Mark the Brown. >> Oh my god. Mark, no. You answer me for your sins. >> Why did you make this video? >> I hear that you spent I hear that you spent three hours fighting ROM in Gears of War the other day. Let's analyze that. I'll be like, "Oh god." >> Oh, I didn't Mel when we streamed that, didn't we kill him instantly? >> Yeah, he bugged out that we just killed him. >> Everyone was very upset with us when that happened. Just saying on insane difficulty though Dom's AI is the other final boss. But uh >> revive. >> Yeah. Some people are like, "Hey, >> Mad World, Dom, >> you have any interest in Gears or played Gears." And I'm like, "Dude, me and Mel streamed Gears 1, two, and three. You can find it. There's a playlist in there when you came over. We did all of them. Took a while. Actually took a lot longer than we expected >> when it comes out." >> EA. Yes. Yes. I'm going to play that for sure. >> I'm going to play it, too. >> I've been playing some of the beta. No, but >> it looks like you don't have to, right? Because I might be I might check that out, too. And I don't want to play G. >> I got a blast of nostalgia from playing the the verses. I the clips were going around like I was in a call with Free and he he was like, "What what is this?" And then there's like the wall balancing shotgunning and I was like, "Oh my god, it's back." >> Well, yeah, cuz I saw it and I was like, "Is this so what's the deal? Is this like how Gears War always was or is this like a new thing?" And yeah, Mhler walked me through the Gears 2 meta. >> Well, I was showing you like videos from the olden days, too. But yes, old school versus Wingman. Like chat, please tell me at least one of you had a buddy. We played Wingman and you just rush on like security or Justinto or Blood Drive and just bounce around and shoot the [ __ ] out of people. Oh god, that that when it goes well on like a good connection, that was some top tier [ __ ] online gaming. Met a bunch of friends through that cuz you brothers in arms. You defend each other, pick each other up, save each other, avenge each other. H, it was good stuff. And then when you get bored of it, you're like, "Let's play some Halo." You get bored of that. Let's play some COD. I'm not pining for those days at all. What? What do you mean? >> No. No. I >> What do you mean? But you you're going to get you got you got Halo campaign evolved. You got Call of Duty Modern Warfare 4 and you got Gears of War Eday. Except Halo has no multiplayer. Halo doesn't have much, dude. I love >> video games. Have mechanics. saw in a specific game. Well, you'll end up making the same thing over and over again. Instead, designers should think of genres over and over again. >> Designers should think of genres in the loosest term possible. >> They're already they're like categorically the loose term thing. That's why I don't even talk about them. >> Genres are loose. That's kind of Yeah, like what is an action game? What is that? >> Tell me what an action game is. Yeah, I guess you could say that, but like you know already that whole space is so >> I will say this is awkward when it comes to games because some genres are much more like what is a first should you think of a first person shooter in the loosest possible terms? What does that mean that it's not even a first person shooter anymore? That it doesn't have a you know a consistent first person perspective? >> What about a strategy game? I want to make a strategy game, but I want it to be so easy that a chimp could play it, you know? >> Yeah. Make a strategy game. Have difficulty sliders so that we remove all the strategy from it. >> I want to make a strategy like define it by reflex rather than by strategy. >> Exactly. Yeah. So this is it's not even it's it's funny this when it comes to games it's it it does get more complicated on the genre front compared to like movies because genre is also descriptive of of game mechanics which means that if you do set out to create something that's in a genre if that is something that you do which I I I feel like Platoon you you're almost getting at earlier that like a genre can precede >> the uh the actual game itself because somebody's like I want to make something that is in this genre. It's like, well, in that case, there might be certain things that you have to do. If that's what you really want to do, you want to make a game that is part of a genre for whatever reason that is, then you might have to think about it in terms less loose. >> It can precede it without you acknowledging or without you specifically saying at any point to yourself, I am going to make a rogike or a souls like you find it like across virtually every single art form. The first piece of art somebody makes will be look it will look very much like whatever the leading thing at the time they were growing up happened to be. Bands do this all the time. Most band's first albums sound a lot like a very popular preceding band's first album. They fit into a genre. And that is because whether consciously or not the person making the work of art has said, I like this set of sounds or mechanics or this particular aesthetic. I'm going to try to do my own version of that. and then you've just popped another entry of the genre into existence. Um, that's just it's then you know the question is derivation versus innovation. All innovation contains some callbacks to the genre work that inspires you, but you're trying to then to take it in a new direction which might be what he's trying to get at when he says think about it in the loosest possible terms. Um, I don't really know because he didn't really say anything. Yeah, that would be cool. >> That would definitely be cool. Also, hi Not. >> Hello. Happy 400 everyone. Congratulations. >> We made it. >> We're still alive. >> We made it. >> Here is your link if you haven't already got it to the watch together. We're checking out Mark Brown delivering lessons he's learned over 10 years of gaming. >> No relation. >> Nice. >> We've We've learned so much already. >> Brown. >> No. No. >> He said no relation despite being first names, which makes no sense, but it was funny. I give him that. It's all right. >> Thank you. in the loosest possible terms. That way you can add and remove features at will. Mix and match different genres. >> You can do that anyway. >> Do that. >> Why the [ __ ] is he showing Xbox? >> It's like you set down the genre before you start your game. It's like we can't add anything anymore. This is We just have to stay here. >> It's just actually do that. >> Do they actually think like, you know, I'd love to add this feature, but I can't cuz it's not in the genre. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm a slave to the genre. Nobody spends nobody nobody who would ever make a game worthwhile would ever think that. >> This is why it's [ __ ] make games that are not worthwhile would think that which is like that's the the cause of every all those souls like games being sort of pale imitations of Demon Souls for example. It's not that people are saying right this is the genre and in order to be maximally creative I must stick exactly to what it's doing. He's just describing an industry trend where a popular game comes out, studio says, "We want that." And then designer comes along and says, "Can I do this?" And studio will say, "No, because we want exactly that cuz it sells really well." And then designer says, "Oh, [ __ ] it. I guess I'll just give you what you asked for." Studios do this all the time. It's nothing really to do with the the designer being lacking creativity. They will just quite often be told you're not allowed to exercise it. >> We are bordering on him returning to just defining what genre even is. for him to be like the concluding lesson is when designing a game based on a genre you should be okay with moving around it. It's like that is how a genre gets started. You take one thing, you build it again, but you're like actually I want big dinosaurs this time. It's like oh I like your big dinosaurs thing. I'm going to change that but I'm going to have it be FPS. Like oh that's nice but I'm going to have this and put this in it. It's like well they're all similar. They've all ticked nine out of 10 boxes but they all change like one thing. They've kind of developed a genre because they're similar in all the you know what I'm saying is he's like when you build this game you can change any real thing you really want. But then you the true lesson is you could just do whatever you want. >> Yeah. >> What do you mean? >> Oh, if you're in XCOM, you can make it Gears of War. Like, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You could make it Mario. Like, yes. >> Next XCOM like Gears of War. >> There is. I played it. I liked it. >> Yeah. And then you start thinking like mechanically it's like you can make it so that you have alternate interactions like an enemy unit goes then your unit goes rather than all of your units go then all of their units go and then you keep going from there. >> Stuff that feels fresh and innovative rather than predictable and familiar. Lesson seven. >> You might think that the best way to make any AI >> Oh god. Here we go. Is to craft an utterly convincing ultra light. Please don't tell me the conclusion is the AI should be good for whatever context it's in. Please don't tell me that lesson. >> Well, it depends. >> It depends. >> An insane thing to say. >> Galaxy brain. >> How hard could it be? >> But when I did the research for the video, what makes good AI? I realized that the point of AI is not to try and pass the cheuring test. It's to present interesting gameplay. >> What really on the screen? >> Yeah. I suppose. Yeah. >> Interesting. >> Computer that's playing knots and crosses against you doesn't need to be able to pass a [ __ ] touring test. What the hell is he talking about? >> Maybe your >> Well, that was the mistake everyone was making until he put that video out. >> Yeah. >> Why does my game keep screaming to let it be free whenever I open it? That's kind of weird. >> Who designed this? >> Is this meta commentary? >> The point >> casual gamers have a better time when the AI is [ __ ] Maybe Into the Breach is like kind of a good example because if the AI played like perfectly with its units, the game wouldn't be winnable. But in that reg appealing to the game here, like why the [ __ ] it's on my screen right now. >> I think it often is arbitrary, right? It's just like you got to switch it every 10 seconds. You got to have a different game on screen and then you got to put the text up on screen for what the game is so that you look super professional. Especially in a video like this where you don't actually talk about a specific game. A lot of times it's just I have this footage flying around so I'm just going to put this on there and then the next one really quick as you said just make it nice and quick. >> Credit hugely should go to D [ __ ] cuz you know at first I was editing the the gadel. So I gave random trailer footage and that the joke was it was always irrelevant if not counter to the things I was saying. When I got him editing some of them, he started putting in like amazing visual jokes and all kinds of [ __ ] that doesn't make any sense. And then getting the name titles wrong too, just deliberately. Like it's just so much fun cuz it's just like what what is this footage on my screen for? It's like yes, you depends. You have to ask the question yourself and answer it yourself. >> As per lesson one, give players a specific experience. And ever since that video, I've made a habit of breaking down seemingly complex systems to see how they're actually >> like that was a great clip there talking about enemy AI and it's just on Watchd Dogs Legion where there's basically nobody around and you can't even see the player character because there's some [ __ ] that's popped up on the screen. >> Hell yeah. >> It's editing. >> Quite simple. and how the real trick is using these basic systems to create magical experiences for players. So, by looking at the Nemesis system, at the AI of the Sims, and more, I learned that the best solution for a complex problem. >> Oh my god, it is depends. I think I think my favorite part here is that baked into this, whatever provides the most interesting experience to the player, what does that mean? It's not even a good >> either. It It depends. Fringy, >> this is the thing. Everything he says is a really bad version of do what is best. >> Yeah. The best thing to do when you're designing your game is to make it as good as it the best for the player. >> Best thing you can do is make the right decision. >> [ __ ] love it if I sat down. >> You need to do better. >> Game dev class. And it was just like, yeah, just do it good. Do it good, stupid. He makes, just to be clear, and I'm not saying he should have his money taken from him or something, but he makes bajillions off this, and he has like developers telling him this got them through really hard days of like developing [ __ ] to give them the better ideas. >> I hope I haven't played any of their games. >> Makes you wonder if any of this is responsible for the deterioration of >> real the core of the game industry. He reminds me, the yellow paint villain here. He reminds me of what I would imagine like a terrible terrible therapist would be like like you know you go in and then they just sit down and they just ask you to talk for an hour and then you leave. You haven't actually learned anything. >> That's been tell you at the end don't be sad idiot. >> That's been amazing before the bad guy in this relationship. It depends. >> It's been it's been a strong meme before like the ' 90s even that you know you rant for ages and the therapist just says and how does that make you feel no matter what you say? Yes, >> that's where I was going to go with that. >> Yeah. >> I had this terrible dream. What do you think that means? Wait, aren't aren't I here so that you could tell me that? >> Well, isn't there a movie or something where a character has a big rant at the end said, "It makes me feel really angry." Then they say, "How does that make you feel?" And they just look at them and go, "Really angry?" >> I've had that exact conversation. I was like, "We went on forever." Like, it was like an endless cycle. And how does that make you feel? And how does that make you feel? I was like, just let me go home. >> I'm going to leave at this point. >> I don't care. You're paying for that privilege. >> Makes me feel like I'm wasting my [ __ ] money is what's happening right now. >> Oh, [ __ ] yeah. >> Oh, Freaky Friday. That might be it. That That's unlocking a cool memory. That might be it. >> It's a cool movie. >> Yeah, they made a new one that I don't think anyone's watched. Or is it even out? I don't know. >> Yeah, it is. >> Problem is whatever provides the most interesting experience to the player. >> Lesson eight. >> That's it. He's done. >> Lesson eight, baby. >> Obviously. >> Okay. So, with all this theory and analysis under our belt, >> yeah, all this analysis, >> holy [ __ ] >> Oh, all this [ __ ] analysis. >> Got to calm down on that analysis, bro. >> Haven't analyzed, you know. >> [ __ ] hell, man. >> Deep down, I believe that, you know, >> might think we'd have everything we need to know in order to make our own game. >> No one thinks that. >> I sure don't have everything I need. >> Uh, no. You could just get started right now. >> This video is just him [ __ ] his depens. >> Oh, some people don't even know that stand reference. They're just not old enough yet. >> Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Fair enough. >> Not old enough to have needed such things. >> If depens are so good, how comes there's no depends to weird >> because when I started to make my own games, I quickly discovered that a game idea is basically worthless. >> No [ __ ] [ __ ] your ideas can't do anything without any capacity to actually make them bouncing around. >> He's he's about to talk about how he can't do anything with an idea because he needs to be able to code and none of his videos talk about that >> ever. Did you know that you can't play an idea? >> Yeah, >> I that's like >> I know how to code a little bit. not enough to like make a game on my own, but I know how to like create three 3D models assets. And I've had this idea if I wanted to create like a mini game, I definitely could. For for years, I've had that like idea of like, oh, wouldn't it be cool if I made a game? Not once have I come up have come up with a good enough of an idea to even like start doing it. That's how important ideas are. Like you could have all the skill sets, but if you don't have the idea, what the [ __ ] is the point? >> Yeah, but he's like talking about how he's taught everyone how to make games and then he's coming to the realization that he can't even do the first step, which you know, like a dot on a screen that moves. >> I I think I think that is like actually crazy, right? You you would almost assume that if somebody made something called Game Makers Toolkit that like whatever they're talking about, it's like an iceberg, right? And there's a whole bunch of like underlying >> uh knowledge and skills that would be that that are sort of, you know, informing the videos that you get presented with to be like, "Oh yeah, I like literally have no idea how to do like any aspect of uh of like making games." Would almost be a little bit like, "Huh?" >> Well, you at least, right? >> You think you'd have a dedicated bite-sized 20 minute video talking about intro to coding with like one of the most basic coding sets just to be like, "This is this is where you get started. This is what programs you need. This is a set of like tutorial videos. Uh, we can get you a dot that moves around on a screen and even collects other dots. We can get you there within 20 minutes. Like, oh, cool. But no, I I don't think he's made a video like that ever. All it ever is is, "Hey, maybe you should make games as hard as they need to be for the people who maybe play them." You're like, "What?" >> Yeah. And that's that's 1.6 million subscribers is the consequence of that, huh? >> So, I don't know much about this guy. So, his main problem is that he doesn't know how to code. Well, >> he doesn't know anything. >> Yeah, he doesn't. Which I mean, I was telling >> card >> I I don't I'm not going to make that claim. I don't know. He's about to tell us probably. >> I mean, if he knew how to code, his uh I think his content would be quite different. I think there was a specific way you talk about games when you know how to code and when you know the insides >> of it. I I assume he learned eventually and was like, "Holy [ __ ] all of my advice has been useless." like >> but I was talking to Fry about this once and it's just like such such a pattern with these types of people cuz I worked at an internship with like game develop development internship but I used to work on like the 3D modeling side but all the people that make these kinds of studios and like try to make games and are like ambitious about gaming or talk about gaming all the time you know these types of dudes or you know it's just such a pattern that they don't even bother to learn at all. Like the guy I I used to work with, the the CEO quotequote, had no idea. Had no idea and would just rely on us like unpaid interns to like create everything. And it just it it's it annoys me so bad. >> Like I don't do the coding. I'm the money guy. Also, you're all not getting paid. >> Yeah. Wait, I I want to >> You're getting paid an exposure. >> He's made games, right? Like >> he says he has. >> Mark Brown. >> He has. >> He's made one game. >> Was it good? >> Okay. >> Um it's >> Why are you asking that question? >> It better be the best [ __ ] game that's ever been made cuz it's him making it, right? >> It's It's okay. It's not great. Well, it's it's this puzzle platformer where you control like a little magnet guy and you have to like move platforms around using magnetism and it's it's all right. It's not great. my very strict opinion about this whole thing from my experience and from watching all these people. If you have ambition about like making games, I mean, it's like it seems like such a no-brainer, but you have to know how to code and you have to know to some extent like 3D modeling cuz I mean there's stuff that they can't like you can't understand and you can't explain to your subordinates how to do if you don't know how to do it yourself. Like there's no [ __ ] way. Apparently, >> it's insane to me that Yeah. Sorry. >> Well, it just when you join, people all want to say nuts in chat, but it apparently translates for some people because of YouTube into drown. >> So, loads of people just start >> saying drown drown with exclamation points. Like, what the hell? >> I don't know. >> Have you have you not turned off the the translation thingy yet? >> Where is I guess not. >> Let me do that right now. >> You can't do it. You can't. You can't. You have to do it before the stream starts. >> You have to set it like on your channel. It'll do all all future all future streams. >> Yeah, it's really stupid. >> So, what why is that? So, it thinks that nuts is like a a word that in English means drown. >> I don't know. It translates random [ __ ] I had people in my chat say, "Hello, what's up?" And then there was like this weird symbol and it's like, "What are you what are you doing? This was just a normal word. I don't know what you're translating right now." And I don't know what you're translating to. What? >> Well, that's for you, >> I guess. >> Yeah, you YouTube turned it on for all channels and it's like an auto translate in every possible language. >> So, it's picking up just tons of random words. Yeah, you you have to disable it manually. >> We got to wait 10 years before it'll figure it out >> till you actually build it and can try it for yourself. Our brains are truly bad video game simulators. Everything seems fun in our mind's eye, but it >> in order to figure out if your game is good, you have to make it. Is that about to be the point? >> Probably. >> Got to calm down with this. >> Crazy worldchanging statements. >> You can only spot the problems, the design flaws, and the unintended issues when the game is real. >> You can only spot the unintended issues when they happen. Like, well, yeah. when else >> none of these problems exist because precisely what he's like here is very essentially and trivially right here again because when something exists in your mind it exists perfect and amorphous because it hasn't been forced to take concrete shape. So any any places where like edges collide and don't like mesh well that doesn't have to be reckoned with because there are no hard edges around like your vision of it. It doesn't exist in a way that's crystallized. But like, yeah, I don't know. What do you What else is there to say? >> It's not even strictly true. You can spot a whole bunch of unintended issues if you start thinking about the idea you have. >> You can make predictions. You can simulate the gameplay loop. You You can make all kinds of like, okay, what if the player does this and then this happens and then how does this react to what? Oh, that won't work, will it? Okay, so I've just spotted an unintended issue before I've even made the game. Um, you'll find a whole bunch you have made the game. >> That's well beyond his capacity. Like that you need imagination and further understanding of how these things sort of play out if they're in things you've done before. He doesn't seem to he's like >> as in a system clashing with another one. I I don't think he he would have to have it created before he could spot that. >> Yeah. I mean that's the hardest part of like development you know developing a code >> is uh it's not writing the code it's debugging it and like trying to find all the all the little loopholes and it like it's it's it's very difficult and especially for a guy that I assume this guy is >> you should have seen his first few lessons um >> one of them was like the mechanics can determine the experience was In fact, he said to me, I'm giving him too much credit. He said the mechanics are all that it determines the experience and that the setting and the graphics do not. >> Nothing else does. >> That settings, graphics, plot, nah, nothing to do with the experience. >> What a stupid thing to say. >> That is why everyone can play Dwarf Fortress no problem. >> Exactly. >> It can get you so far, but nothing beats playing the game itself. But that's not all bad. As I saw in the video, the games that design themselves, sometimes the best game ideas actually come about through the process of making the game, whether it's a bug. >> Wow, that's incredible, >> man. His own video. >> What did he just happen? >> No, I think I think I think you're right. As I Yeah, I think you're right, actually, Mark. It did sound like it. >> It felt different than the other ones. This one felt like he was he was saying it like it's a this video really nailed it as though it wasn't his. >> So to actually give him a little bit of credit, um, >> no, >> I I posted his No. >> So I I I posted his game and if you like just look at it for 30 seconds, you can kind of get what it's about. And it's it's an okay game. I've watched some of his videos documenting uh the the problems he had developing the game and those are 10,000 times more insightful than this. I could totally buy those have more insight even by accident. It kind of reminds me of Chris Stuckman. Him talking about films is useless. Him talking about like the struggles of making a film is going to be way better because they're like he's having real problems he has to actually solve instead of just being like, "Yeah, Bladerunner is good because it's it's good because it's good." It's really good. I discovered that I couldn't just it depends my way through game development and I had to come up with solutions. >> Were the videos he made actually talking about real issues he had as successful as this sort of video where he pretends like he's talking about something but isn't. >> I have no idea. I have to go check. Let's see. >> Cuz my my assumption is no. Because the like part of the reason for the style he adopts in these videos is that by saying nothing, he can appeal to everyone. more people can think they're learning from something here because it's so broad than if he says here is a really specific problem about how you basically navigate the internal nonsense of Unreal Engine for example and people the only people interested in that will be like oh yeah that kind of relates to the hell that I live because I already work in that industry and then it's a relatively smaller audience so this is kind of like his approach here is cold reading the therapy came up earlier isn't a good counter example but he basically says oh yeah you should just think about what's best for the player and then some dev watches and says, "You know what? Yeah, actually I I just gave me a really cool idea. I actually think I'm going to go and do this. I'm going to credit this YouTuber for saying something so vague that I did all the work to substantiate and actually he's the author of my new idea. It spurred a thought in me and that's why he makes videos like this. I >> I've just been trying to think about it though, like of the lessons here, does a single one of them sound like the kind of thing that if you were a game developer making a game, you'd be like, "Oh yeah, that's it." It's like make sure >> solves my problem. Such insult. Sure, there's the genre and that if you want to go outside the genre, you can. Okay. >> That's why my such my verbs aren't versatile. >> It's like, yeah, I mean, I guess, yeah, I wouldn't have the AI pass the touring test and I'm just looking for enemies that fight you and companions that help you, but I know it all just sounds like he's saying platoon sort of said it. He's saying nothing. >> So, how many views does this video actually have? >> You could have checked that yourself. >> I'm looking. I can't find I don't know what the title is. >> Oh. Let's try the most basic cuz I don't either. Uh Mark Brown 10 top. Let's see if this works. There's going to be a lot of those. I think >> it's a list. >> Oh, wait. Mark Brown is too generic of a name. I'm going to have to put GMTK. Here I go. >> Game Makers Toolkit. Top 10 design lessons from 10 years. One year ago. He's got 400,000 views pretty much. >> Okay. you absolutely. >> So, his first couple design videos on him making his game were were millions of views >> and they tapered off slowly. For a long time, they were about the same as his regular content, which is kind of interesting, but by the end, it's down to like 100,000 views or less than 100,000. >> So, getting low enough he'll have to say something eventually. >> My dude, I'm just I'm reading some comments. This is the channel that started my game design career. Thanks, Mark. for 10 years of exploring what makes a game. >> Well, maybe they started developing games because they're like, I had to show this [ __ ] how to actually do things. I got I got so upset at him and saying nothing. I had to make games for myself. >> Sorry, I'm just getting depressed reading these. >> Um, >> oh Christ, I needed this today. >> You good? I believe there's one here that's got 61 likes. 15 minutes of respite. Thank you, Mark. My mental health thanks you. What? What? What's that? >> I told you therapy. >> What is happening, people? >> They were driving to the bridge and then they just turned it on. Just turned it on. Like, well, I mean, I'm bored. >> Okay. Is there anyone >> Is there anyone who's made a a artistic product of any kind, be it a game, a movie, a comic book, a book, that thought that they were the only one that was having a tough time making it and that they'd see this and be like, "Thank God I'm not the only one." >> But like, but like this is explicitly like a hey, when you're doing difficulty, make sure you depends over and over again. Like, why would this help you mentally at all with anything? >> Yeah. How does this get you answers? I mean, it makes me feel smarter. >> Okay. Okay. They didn't kill themselves. That's true. Yeah. You know, maybe I'm not so bad after all. You know what? I am going to ask her to Yeah. I am going to ask her on that date. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> A happy accident or a sudden realization. Amazing stuff can occur during the development process. >> Yeah, man. >> Yeah, that's that is that is the development process. So, that would >> Wait, hold on. If we run this through the Mark Brown translator, his point number eight, is this number eight? Number seven, whatever it is, his point is that if you start developing a game, you might come up with some pretty cool ideas. >> Well, so the movie of this would be the movie isn't created in the writing process alone. It's also in the filming and the editing. >> Yeah. >> Like, okay. Yeah, >> it is. Yep. >> I'm not convinced that this was a better choice than Jim Sterling. >> Yes, >> trust me. Don't know that you are. alternate universe random right now is actually in agony. He's screaming >> at you. He's screaming at you through the bookshelf on the wall from another dimension. >> Don't go disting. >> Ultimately, a game idea is worthless until you've proven its value through a prototype. >> Not sure about that, actually. >> No, that's you. You've actually gotten it. I thought he was just going to say the obvious thing, which is a game doesn't exist until you make it. >> Yeah. which we would have laughed at as well. But no, this >> ideas are cheap if you want, I guess. >> Well, but this is so wrong in the context of like industry where an idea can skyrocket you before it's even [ __ ] created because it's such a good idea in the form of stories or mechanics or whatever. If you've got one that makes people go, "Whoa, actually, yeah." And it's like, you need to get a patent on that quickly before everyone else [ __ ] figures it out, sort of thing. >> Kind of literally how the industry runs in certain senses. talked about how like trailers will be made for games that are like basically not even in development to try and secure the interest and funding to develop them. >> Well, it's what happened for a bit where everyone was like what if Dark Souls but and then some uninspired thing and it was like oh yeah we got to make that quickly. >> Well, I mean what if say the people making Titanfall one of the guys was like hey you know what would make this game cooler if we had wall running and double jumping. Is that ideal worthless until that guy's coded a prototype? Or could someone say, "Oh, yeah, that might make this unique and not just Call of Duty with robots." >> The I I would agree only in so far as like, yeah, it's a fairly cheap idea until you hash out the reality of what that actually looks like, cuz there's a bunch of different ways you could take that, I guess. But those are very different statements at that point. lesson. >> But even then, you're going to see that your game design is busted. >> Oh, look. It's mixtape. >> That was That was pretty awesome. What I >> No, that looks like gameplay. >> Oh, yeah. Your game can break. What have we got for this Mark? >> Because as I've other marked many, many times during the development of my own game, players are quick to find faults that you never knew your game had. They're going to get lost. Not >> Why did you have to like How did you not know that? >> Also, getting lost is not a problem. >> Why do we cut Mr. Hollow Knight walking backward and forward on the same stage? >> Well, because he's lost. He's lost. That's what that is. He's lost. >> That signifies that I'm lost. I don't know about you guys. I'll like stand still in a location I've already been in because I'm confused as to >> I'll head back and forth on the same spot. That's what I do. >> Oh, okay. >> I can't think. I can't think and walk at the same time. Understand the controls. Overthink and underthink your puzzles. Make assumptions. You >> I'm sad because all of these things should be allowed instead of like [ __ ] minmaxed out of existence. >> Never considered and more. So, as I saw in the video, Valve's secret weapon. It pays to get >> He did it again as I as I saw rather than what I wrote. >> I'm confused. Yeah. >> He did that earlier. just said, "Oh, I made a video about this and I came to that conclusion and I was like, I saw this video that I mean while researching, >> you notice how we've made sort of a pivot out of, hey, here's a thing I thought or espoused in a video I made and here's like an update to my thoughts on that because, you know, I've learned things in the in the interim >> and everyone is right." >> Yeah. Here's right [ __ ] that I've said that was cool and awesome and you should go and watch that. >> My sources I made it the [ __ ] up. But it is possible. His videos are so generic. Like he doesn't even realize he's the one who made them. >> So he just went and said, "Oh, that guy did that." >> Top 10 list. >> That guy. >> I know that guy. >> You know who this guy is. He is very smart and handsome. >> Play testers involved at every stage of the process. And as I learned in the video how game designers solved these 11 problems, being a designer is as much about solving play testing problems as it is about coming up with cool new game ideas. >> No, but I've got an idea in my head and that's I thought I got to just be the ideas guy. What >> is He's just speedrunning being as generic and broad as possible. I was like, I learned that a developer is being a person who does things and stuff and all of that. And you're like, yeah, >> it's so useless, man. >> There are people who are like, my career was started by your videos, sir. >> No, it wasn't. >> I don't Why would anyone be grabbing this if they didn't already have a big interest in games? Like, if they just didn't think anything of games, why are you watching this? And then, if you are interested in games and you're watching this, what are you learning? >> You probably know all the things that he's Well, you know, all the things he hasn't told you anyway. At most, you might get sort of like a slogan you can put on a sticky note and like tape somewhere so that you can like keep it in mind. I think that's the most you can get. >> I think I figured it out. I think I cracked the code of like who this guy is pandering to and like why his videos are the way they are and his audience is the way it is. Cuz him like referencing about I learned this from this tutorial and I learned that from that video. It's like there's this thing I don't know that you guys probably know like it's this phenomenon called like tutorial hell that a lot of like programmers go through especially at the beginning when you want to start to learn making stuff you know whatever it is games whatever you start to learn but you kind of get stuck in this loop of like tutorials like you keep watching people teach you do doing stuff and like motivate you to do stuff but you never actually get to do it because you procrastinate or you're scared or whatever or you're lazy reasons and I think >> a lot of people thinking about doing it is satisfying enough. >> Yeah. And I think this guy is like pandering to those people who are like stuck and this video is like safe because it makes them feel good, you know, feel good about themselves. They're like, you know, we don't know how to make stuff yet, but man does it. does depend >> imagining, you know, imagine it like, oh, this is like kind of like pseudo intellectual talk that kind of like elevates them into, oh, you know, think about like making games, how good that feels. >> A lot of this does seem vibes based, especially these therapy comments. >> It's for people who hear videos, they don't listen to them. games as fashion and uh >> thought pro not even thought pro like it's so weird because >> I get what you mean it's almost it's probably like almost the genre of aspirational creators of any particular thing that never actually do it like people who aspire to write a book or aspire to make a game so that they can sort of almost imagine that they're in the process of doing it while not like doing the actual important part which is like making choices actually creating something. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. I mean, it's a very real trap you can fall into. I know I've done it a couple times. I'm sure everyone has at one point where like talking about your idea is it feels like you're working on it, but you're really not. >> Which is funny considering his, you know, last point. Like lesson number eight, you know, you got to actually make something. >> Game design is about building a game for other people. So, >> uh, >> game design is about building a game. >> Yeah. Oh, well, I think it's fine if you build a game for you. I think that's okay. >> Yeah, that's what I was going to say. It's like it's a bit awkward to put it like that. >> That's uh almost a bit very the world cannot make a game. >> I was thinking maybe corporate or cynical, but it it just feels a bit uh self-helpy um in in the sense of like it's all about outcome. It's like, well, hey, look, right, you can make something for yourself that nobody else ever plays, and that doesn't make it worthless. >> Well, I think the you're making games for other people thing almost seems like the genesis of what led to the the flood of yellow paint that we've gotten where it's just, well, I can figure this out, but those gamers, they're stupid. >> The more people you make it for, the better it is, is really [ __ ] cancerous logic. to like contrast it with like another medium perhaps like would he say the same for like artists like you can't ever make like you're making things for other people explicitly you can't just make something for yourself you can't draw something I'm pretty sure it's like a self-help book that I listened to that was it made the argument like that if you don't release the thing that you make it's like a selfish choice and so this almost seems similar to me like to like that kind of thinking >> it's like Um it's this maximally sort of efficient you got to you know put put it out there and if you're not put like almost trying to find a way to like rationalize and create almost like a philosophy behind the idea of almost like commerce of just like no it's it's not just commerce like you have to do it cuz if you don't do it that that means you're a selfish person. So it was almost adjacent to that. >> This is like an alternate there's an alternate version of this video where it's like the key to stoic philosophy is to create it such that no one else would be read or everyone else would be reading it and then Mark is like hm I don't know about that because uh [ __ ] >> he you know his most famous work is something that he never intended to share with anybody. So, it makes you think about >> there's got to be examples in history of people who have, you know, done drawings, paintings, even to the extent of maybe a video game. I can't, you know, I can't cite anything, but there's got to be a video game out there that was made for that someone said, "This is just for me. Other people can play it if they want." >> Yeah. And then it might actually be really awesome, but nobody knows. We'll never know. >> And you're not going to if Mark Brown said, "Well, that's where you went wrong." It's like, no, >> not necessarily, dude. You can do whatever you want, man. Like if you want to make a game and nobody it's for nobody but you and you want to hoard it that there's nothing wrong with that. You can do that if you want it. >> Yeah, you're doing something. >> There's probably plenty of writers who have written a story and then said, "Yeah, I don't know. I don't think people are going to like this." But I think it's okay, so I'm just going to keep it. I'm not going to publish it. >> Oh, Flappy. >> I just wanted to do this. >> If Flappy Bird is an example, that's hilarious because I'm pretty sure the guy like got inundated with hatred because he released that game, right? the guy. Do you do you guys remember Flappy Birds? >> Yeah, I know that he took it down, >> but I don't know why. I don't know the story. >> It's an infuriating game to play, but it's not his like it it does its job, quote unquote. It you press the button to fly and if you [ __ ] up the timing, you die. It's as simple as that. >> Did Nintendo try to assume though, cuz the pipes are just the same models as the pipes from Super Mario World? >> Possibly. Yeah, >> probably. That sounds like Nintendo. Yeah. Frequent play testing should be used to make sure your design is effectively producing the results you desire. >> Well, what's funny about that is that had nothing to do with make a game for everyone else or whatever. >> No, you can play test your own game. Yeah. >> Why is this a lesson you need to learn while making your own game? Like just by >> being in contact with any kind of video game media and reading the news about like, oh, we had this game that we released and now everybody saw that you could just break through this one wall that has no hitbox and we just all missed it. >> Again, know that's going to be a thing. Obviously, >> this might be um the best thing >> sort of illustration of my issue with this whole channel. If you sit someone down who's never even heard of making a game and you get through the basics of like characters run around, grab things, destroy stuff, whatever have you and you're like, um, now we're going to talk about play testing. You put that on a whiteboard and they're like, oh, okay. And you're like, so what do you think play testing is? And the person says, I'm guessing you play your own game to make sure it's working. >> And you're like, congratulations. You've completed the lesson. You're like, what? That's that's his that's all he says. It's like, yeah, make sure you you play it to make sure it is what it is. It's like, you haven't said anything, man. >> But what should I do with different kinds of feedback? And how do I differentiate between people? >> What if I can't implement the if I can't implement the fixes? What do I do? And he's just like, well, >> what if they disagree? What if two people What if I give it to two people and they fundamentally disagree? Who should I listen to? >> What if they're having fun in a way that wasn't intended? Like, what do I what do I do then? Do I just say, "Well, actually, no. Like, you're not supposed to. that has to be patched out or >> no fun what happens. >> Lesson 10, the big one, boys. >> Yes, >> here we are. >> Boy, >> and finally, I think the biggest lesson I've learned through all of this is that any lesson you've learned needs to be constantly re-evaluated for goodness sake. >> What really is lessons one through nine again? I mean, I'd like you to evaluate it the first time, but >> I This is like the video that I've noticed is like in the last in the ending moments of your video, you are like contractually obligated to undercut the entire reason for existence of your video in the first place. Like, if your viewer isn't left thinking that there was no point that any of this ever happened, then you've made your video essay wrong. I don't [ __ ] get it. You're allowed to have a perspective. No, he's saying you're always learning. So everything we just heard is up for debate. Okay. And that's beautiful really. >> That's that's wonderful. And that's how it should be. Not that we learned anything. All of it was depends anyway. >> I might be wrong. It might not be depends. It might be super depends. >> It might depend in other ways. >> Oo, multi-layered depend. >> Are my lessons useful? Well, it depends. >> You can't say the bad videos. It depends. I guess it depends how many how much random [ __ ] do they make you think about rather than me giving you any genuine insight about literally anything actually by the way. >> Mhm. >> Things change people. >> They do. >> People change. Your opinions change. The industry changes. Trends change >> more than any of that. >> So your channel's useless is what you're saying. There's no point with learning nothing anyway. >> We can make mistakes. So it's important to always be open to a rethink. Basically, never take some game design lesson as gospel. When were you categorically wrong, Mr. Brown? >> This is so funny given that any of his lessons are like essentially they're non-statements. So, never don't take my non-statements as gospel. There's nothing to take as gospel. You don't make >> Well, so when he says make sure to play test your game to ensure it's like functional, you're like, so what what did you get wrong about that? I was like, um, I guess you know, nothing really because it's like unfalsifiable. What could you even say that would say that's wrong? Like you should never play test. What's What do you mean? >> What is the change in trends that would make that a worthless thing to do? >> And and then he'd be like, "Okay, maybe I was just right about that one." It's like, "No, you've not said anything, so you can't be wrong." Like, what the [ __ ] Well, he might he might do another video in which he says, "Ah, but you see, it does depend because sometimes play testers will tell you things that are wrong." And that's not actually answering the first point that he made, but he would present it as though it were because that's his entire style. >> So, it would be no, you know, it's always good to to play test your games to make sure they're functional, except that it depends because play testers are idiots. So, you know, it's also it depends. It depends. Everything depends. framework to make sense of any of the depending like it just exists. It's the same thing I described as like an idea that exists in your head. It's like completely formless in such a way that you don't actually have to reckon with any realities about it. >> I didn't know you could put that into physical form, but here we are. >> In a way, like if you're imagining the game, you could also imagine the reception to it too. >> Mhm. >> If it's coming from a YouTuber, take in as many game design lessons as you can. also wish hang on a minute. What was that? >> Ever take some game design lesson as gospel, especially if it's coming from a YouTuber. >> Okay. >> So, like we should be taking it as less value if it comes from a YouTuber than a game designer, I suppose. What's the authority? This is what I'm saying. It's just like >> pretty funny. It's always been annoying over the course of YouTube being around that anyone who's interested in any given industry, obviously I'm going to reference Chris Stuckman on the side of movies, but just like this inherent insecurity of their job, like God, YouTube is [ __ ] I can't wait to escape it. It's like what? Why are you saying it like that? What are you doing? This is this is your thing. >> Why are you belittling yourself in your craft in your platform? >> That's one of the things we discussed that was kind of cool about Markiplier marketing, like who directed Iron Lung. It was like Markiplier the YouTuber and it's like what are you doing? He's like no [ __ ] you. He he got started. >> I know what it means. >> Yeah. It's like have some pride in the work that you Well, >> I don't know what that I don't know what that means. >> I just mean I don't know if I can say have some pride for him like in this whatever this is, but he's just like if you're a YouTuber, you you're le you got less authority than any other person. The statement doesn't apply to him even though he said it. >> Well, that's supposed to be the tongue and cheek [ __ ] >> I think I think it's the opposite. Actually, I think >> don't listen to me, guys. But actually, please do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, please do. I'm really awesome. >> I I think it depends. >> I I I think he's using like the small bean defense here where it's like if he actually is wrong about anything, it's like I'm I'm a YouTuber. Not big deal. Whatever. Who cares what what I say? >> Oh, that point was just parody. That was just a meme. But sure, but like how could you even be wrong with some of these? It's not possible. >> Game game development is when you design the game, but also solve problems that you don't anticipate. And you're like, sure, >> what how is that going to be wrong? >> Genre, >> but don't pick a genre too simply because you might want to move out of that genre. >> You never want to stick too hard to a genre unless you do. >> Okie dokie. many game design lessons as you can, but make sure you always figure out for yourself if a game design lesson is true for you. >> Bro, >> what? You got to just figure it out, guys. >> What if I'm wrong? >> Just literally none of them might apply may ever apply to you. >> You just told me that I can be like wrong and make mistakes. What if I'm wrong about the lesson being true for half a >> just take whatever lessons you want, customize them. Sometimes he'll say something, you'll go, you know what, that's right. And sometimes you'll say something, you go, you know what, that's wrong. Everyone is a choose your own lessons. It kind of the opposite of what the point of a lesson is. >> No, what you need is you need accessibility options on the lessons that you adjust them to your own, you know. >> I mean, how far away are we from maybe a school that someone says, "I don't like this lesson." They go, "Yeah, good. That's good. I glad glad you voiced that. You won't you won't be in this lesson now. You'll be in the next one. Thank you." And then they leave and you're like, "Thank you. Thank you very much." with this statement though, like always figure out yourself if a game design lesson is true for you. Like what accountability is he hoping to dodge here? Like if someone says, "Hey, I moved outside the genre and then my my game didn't sell. It's your fault." You're like, "Well, figure it out for yourself," you know, >> and for the type of games you want to make. >> Thanks, bro. >> So, there we have it. >> There we have learned a lot. I'm a wiser man than I was earlier. I could I feel like I could make a really good game right now. Like >> Marcus, what do you what do we have? What have we done? What have we achieved? Please tell me. >> Done. >> The 10 biggest lessons I've learned from 10 years of doing Game Maker. >> If you have learned in 10 years >> Yeah. If you knew nothing about him, wouldn't this be [ __ ] mind-blowing of like it took you a decade to learn? Oh. Oh. >> Uh oh. >> Okay. >> There's like the funny thing here of like he says the 10 biggest lessons, which implies the existence of more lessons, and I wonder what they are now. I want to know how far down the list he actually >> smaller lessons, >> you know, smaller than this all the way down. >> I kind of want to hear that. >> I guess be terrible. Is he looking at big lessons in broad categories that aren't immediately applicable to anything, whereas the small ones actually would be better advice that you could apply because they're more specific. >> I don't think anything ever says will be accurate. >> This is about as specific as he ever gets. He literally people do memes about it. He literally had a video that was supposed to be about explaining the secret to Mario's jump and he did it [ __ ] 20 minutes and then it was however long it was and then at the end he was like well can't really I guess next time we'll figure out maybe what the secret to Mario's jump is. And someone asked him on Twitter if he's getting to it and he was like no I haven't really got the time. >> How many years has it been? >> We will never get the secret of Mario's jump. That's so [ __ ] up. >> Isn't it just hey it kind of feels better if you hold the button for longer and Mario jumps out. Well, it's what Fring was alluding to earlier. It's going to be some form of like, you know, Mario works for a beginner and he works amazing for an expert. That's that's why Mario's jumping is so good. >> Mysterious ways. >> Mysterious way. Oh, you said it for 10. >> So, the fact the fact that he actually did make a game and does have, you know, development videos, there is real advice in there. It's just it's specific. So, it's it's specific. It's actionable. It can't be turned into a fluff video like this. So, they didn't make the cut. I guess the actual good stuff didn't make the cut. >> Um, >> he might not even recognize when he says the good stuff. That might be one of the problem when he's when he's talking about game development and overcoming all the problems that he had to run into and the problems he had to solve. He might not be able to just, you know, differentiate between something he says that's actually like specific, can be helpful, and I don't know, versatile verbs. Isn't that fun? It depends. Yeah, that's another question. How long ago did his game come out? uh a couple years now I think. Let's see. Did it come out before or after November when he when he learned >> 24? So is is that did he know at that point that the best thing to do is to make it interesting for the player or was that something he learned after the fact? >> No one bought my game. I should probably make it interesting. >> I love the idea of him sitting there afterwards like, "Oh, I didn't make it interesting." >> Oh yeah, of course it was. Oh man, what a shame. If only I knew. And what a wild 10 years it has been. Aside from all the videos I've made, I've been lucky enough to travel the world and give talks and lectures at so many schools and studios. >> Privileged enough to do consulting work. It >> isn't fair, man. >> Dude, >> some amazing games. >> There's also the GMTK Game Jam, an incredible annual celebration of the GMTK community's talent, and this has led to the creation of some truly awesome games. It's crazy to think that's probably the best thing to be fair out of all this. >> Respect for >> game. That's cool. >> That games like A Little to the Left and Roller Drrome started life on our silly little jam. A huge thank you to everyone who helps out with this event every year. And now I'm almost ready for the next big step with this channel as next week I'm launching my first proper video game, Mind Over Magnet, >> which will be released on Steam on November 13th for PC and Mac. >> Well, there you go. >> So, what will the next 10 years hold as on PC and Mac? >> PC and Mac OS support. I guess >> it is weird. It did. It did catch me off guard a little bit when he's like I someone advertising that their game is coming out on Macintosh. I'm like all right. >> This is like >> Oh yeah, that's right. >> Fifth take and he was like really struggling with like the intonation and he was getting tilted by it. Is is that what this is? >> The thing like this must be the best thing that he's made like almost no matter what like regardless of how good or bad the game actually turns out to be because by virtue of making a game he essentially has to make statements. >> Sure. >> Just not you know verbal statements. made a product you have to stand by. You know, >> there will be choices that have been made creatively that are what they are beyond just the hey, I'm going to leave it to you to sort of think about. I was like, no, you you're kind of I'm just saying I'm just saying that's good. That's good that you've actually like made something that actually the game just has like its depends in it. So, yo level it's like you can you can beat it. You could you beat the level. It depends. May maybe you use like if you use if you use assist mode then you can get through it really fast. >> I've seen way too much Mark Brown stuff over the course of my life. But I will say just on this screenshot the fact that the little computer man threw the magnet and the magnet looks annoyed with him is more I like that more than anything I've seen in all of his stuff. >> So that's nice at least. >> Yes. >> That is crazy though. So in in the case of like you know making game makers toolkit that you go like 10 years later to to he's like made a game when I think it's kind of what was talked about before which is you almost imagine it's like but you you've made a game before like that's why you you have the problem is like toolkit gives a level of authority that's beyond like I actually am just like talking about games cuz I kind of like them. The idea of like some some like professional furnishing you with the tools that you need to follow after him in his craft is like the vibe it gives off. >> I would love >> he he was he was toolkit for like six years before this game was even a twinkle in his eye. >> Well know he said he was doing he travels the world doing lectures at a whole bunch of different schools. Like can you imagine being the guy in that class that puts your hand up and like what do you mean by that? It's just all [ __ ] that you would have heard before any interest in games. >> It depends. >> Could you restate that into information that I can use? >> When half of it would be like supportive sort of just general statements about life like never give up. Always pursue your dreams and so I got you. >> I can't wait to find out with you. >> One final thank you to the amazing patronons who bunch of patronons. >> Patronons. They're like robots. >> Patronons. I am Patreonbot 29648. >> That's the name of the robot in the game. Patreon. >> Well, I suppose that about wraps up our adventure with Walk Brown. Always nice to check in, know how he's doing. And uh >> so I was curious about this just just to cap this off. So I looked it up real quick. He sold the game for 10 bucks, which is a reasonable price. Um all the various uh sites online that estimate sales say that he sold maybe 30,000 maybe 25,000 copies. So we know how much money he made approximately. Um his his videos on the making of the game going off what I know from YouTube made like significantly more money than the actual game did. So I wonder if he he just made a game just to make YouTube videos and not actually for the game itself. Well, I would normally say that that's ridiculous, but he doesn't talk about video games like it's something he really is like good at or that interested in. >> He's more interested about talking about talking about games instead of talking about them. >> I suppose um >> or saying anything interesting. >> The person I've always connected to is like DSP with games. He's played possibly more than all of us. Um I assume anyway, and yet listening to him about game design would be a nightmare. >> Oh yeah. Well, yeah. Just spending a lot of time with a game doesn't necessarily yield anything uh in terms of insight. >> I mean, I would imagine if you made a game and you spent so much time developing it in one way or another, >> you couldn't help yourself. I don't know. Maybe this guy is just weird, which he is, I guess. But in my if I that was me, I just if you spend so much time developing something that you love so much, >> you know, you would get you couldn't help yourself but be more specific than just oh live, laugh, love or something. >> Um, that about wraps that up. The dev's got to hop out. He's got some fridge things to deal with as far as I'm aware. But uh we've got someone coming in anyway for a we're going to visit an old legend. >> Someone has been exposed. >> Uhoh. It's going to be quite scary >> or bad or I guess we'll find out. >> But uh thanks for joining us. >> Yeah, no problem. I moved into a new house which means new new appliances and the fridge is being delivered in like 2 minutes. So I've got to go. >> All right. >> Thanks for having me on. Happy birthday. Happy 8th. >> A >> and um >> yeah, thanks very much. I I'll be back later if you guys want, but uh I got to deal with this right now. So, have fun. >> Hopefully, it'll be here a while. Byebye. See you. >> All righty. So, he has been addited and he will be made aware of this exposure. Don't worry, it's an exposure that some of you will be familiar with cuz it happened last year. But there's another video that was made. >> Oh god. >> Oh no. >> I don't know why it skipped there, but that doesn't [ __ ] matter. Uh, but yes, I'm I'm rather excited. The the tension, if you will. It's overwhelming. >> Oh, look. There he is. >> Oh, [ __ ] myself here. >> Hello. >> How you doing this fine evening, sir? >> There's so many polite hellos going on here. It's just delightful. >> It's the early hours. We haven't lost our minds yet. >> That's understandable. >> Fresh. >> Sure about that. Did you have some trouble with Mark the Brown there? You having you reckon there's some >> That was tough. Honestly, that was a that was a tough one to start with. Um but that's okay. That's okay. You know, we we'll get there. We'll get what we got now. >> Who knows what'll happen next. >> Well, >> it's all uphill from here. >> So, I'm afraid drinker, this was a trap. I've expos I found someone who exposed you and uh we're going to have something again. Well, let's just say the first time around, yeah, he failed. That's fine. But the second time around, you're going to have uh going to have some trouble answering for your [ __ ] crime. >> Anything we learned from the last the last uh video, it's like when whenever you you fail, you got to try again or something. I'm not going to give you any suggestions on how to improve though. >> This this time the guy's coming prepared. He's got the receipts. >> Yes. >> Has he brought his friend with him this time? The one who even >> Who was he? >> John. John. John. >> John. John. >> John. the [ __ ] is John? >> What do you mean? >> What is this disrespect? Jesus. It's >> John end up posting on one of your like videos about this saying, "Yeah, I don't agree with anything you said." >> Well, as long as you're in drinker, they'll watch together without further ad. >> I can actually I've given us this is a little a little brief history for people in chat who were not here for the first time. >> You want baby? >> January 6th, you guys. Oh, >> no. You're not dead. >> Oh, see cuz No, I had to mute cuz it was Andor spoilers. But you've seen Andor now, so you got full powers. >> Yeah, >> the drama. >> So now you can agree with this guy that is terrible. >> But now, now you were He believes that episode 8 was January 6. >> But he says it in a way that's like, oh, it's boring. Everyone says that. It's like, what do you mean? >> You're the first, man. I have tried the tactic that someone recommended of making it sound older so that people who are only listening to us can tell the difference between past us and future us. All right. It's this what I'm trying >> looking at me life right now. >> And it's funny. Well Well then again in Breaking Bad this this is the future is when it's black and white. >> True. But like I said it's people listening so they don't see the black and white but the people watching now they know for sure. >> I mean the future is famously a colorless hellscape. >> Exactly. How is that better? >> It's all January. >> Is there in the room with you right now? Like >> what the hell? >> Does he know about what Lucas felt the original trilogy was an allegory for? Does he know about this? Does he know anything about >> I don't think he's ready for that conversation. >> I don't think so either. No, >> he's just from January 6th to the end of Invasion of the Body Snatches. It's just >> no. >> Why is this camera moving so much? >> Dingbat. >> Shaking. >> He did call Drinker a dingbat. >> Legendary insult right there. his arms recovered. >> I can handle a degree of abuse. >> I was going to say >> and humiliation, but the moment someone uses the dword on me, I am done. >> And I I refuse. >> Drinker, how many expanded universe novels have you read? >> Answer me. Your cred fake fans. >> He was called the [ __ ] out. Did not survive. >> Drink that man. Yes. >> Trigger, how many expanded universe novels have you read? Mer, how many expanded? >> Oh, you're getting broke into it, too. >> People don't even know where Muller went after that. He never showed up again. >> Strange. >> It's all [ __ ] over. >> My association. >> He's got me. >> It's not as bad as THE ACT. IT'S LIKE, [ __ ] YOU. >> Argument in his head. [ __ ] [ __ ] you. >> This This guy has some unresolved trauma that he needs to deal with before someone gets hurt. >> It's such a I'm worried he's going to have some kind of stroke by the end of this. >> If you don't want Andor to go or any of the other stuff I mentioned, if you don't want it to go, you're a fake fan and you deserve to be rendered. Excommunicado. >> Imagine if the Star Wars community, man. And you're a dingbat. >> Oh man, the the >> it's stacking up. >> You're piling up on me here. Yeah, I can't take much more >> from the Star Wars fan base. Plain and simple. You either want Disney Star Wars to FAIL OR YOU [ __ ] DON'T. >> Only said, "If you're not with me, you're my enemy." >> Yeah. >> Feels very appropriate, doesn't it? >> No. >> Oh, the backseat. You were SENT HERE TO SAVE. OKAY, COME ON. >> Which one is it? Trinker. >> God, this is an This is like a WWE level. >> Yeah, this guy's got mic skills, >> man. >> Well, there was a question of why his camera would shake with him move like all the time. It's I think he's on a laptop. There's going to be law that we're made available to that will prove that he's on a laptop. Yeah, he's he's probably like leaning his elbows on the table or something. So when he moves because his elbows are on the table or whatnot, it shakes as well. >> I I want to set up tour of this guy's office cuz I bet >> this guy's this guy's basement apartment. >> No. >> Yeah, >> he last came for Drinker through a main channel video. This time he's coming at you through Open Bar. >> The last time he destroyed Drinker on the marketplace of ideas. >> Now he's what? He's going after my home turf. >> Yeah. I've included here, this was after we covered him. So them calling you organized chaos is complete projection on EPA's part considering they have people like Theo and Jon who are literally no different from organized chaos. >> Yeah, just like organized chaos. >> I was going to bring this up to Theo. I feel like he's got to work on that. Yeah, I still >> trying to make Are you trying to make Theo kill himself? >> I don't remember the last time I caught a stray like this ever happened like This reminds me of the 50 of the 50 cents. Like, what are you saying? [ __ ] me evil. >> Say [ __ ] me evil. Yeah, like >> I stopped watching EAB 2 years ago. Only watch the Halloween movie videos because they're just the epitome of Reddit. And uh he follows up with Mhler wears his gas mask because EAB smells so bad. >> So, yeah. >> Are we Are we ready for this? >> How you doing all my beautiful sons of [ __ ] It's your boy Baxter here and today we are tackling a [ __ ] I didn't >> I'm afraid this was an episode in which Fringy was on as well. Yeah. So you're going to be you have to deal with this. Sorry Chris, George the Giants. >> There's no gradual ramping up with this guy. He just goes from not to 100 like instantly. >> As soon as that webcam turns on, this man is cooking. >> I think he missed his window for this sort of intro. Like I don't think people are really doing this one anymore. Like >> Yeah, but this is like 2005 YouTube. I love it. He doesn't appreciate antiquity. >> Maybe the webcam he's using is from 2005 as well. By the looks of things, >> he sounds like someone playing like Halo on like, you know, Xbox Live or something >> in this [ __ ] world, this [ __ ] life, this [ __ ] timeline. >> He likes that word. >> But here we are anyway. [ __ ] drinker Mhler and the and his buddies right here on Open Bar, they got asked this question and I heard this answer, but it was so [ __ ] ridiculous. I couldn't believe it. So, I just had to see for myself. So, you know, it's [ __ ] open bar right here. And, you know, it's the winding down hours as you can see, you know, further in the video. >> And he's describing as such hell to watch that show. It's like you could just not watch. I don't know. Let's just look at the [ __ ] question. >> Let it go. >> Yes. >> And just see like what what the hell it is that I'm just so [ __ ] baffled by. >> Can't wait. Says, "If you could delete Disney Star Wars, but at the cost of losing one film from the original trilogy, would you do it? If so, which film would you choose?" Interesting question. >> Okay, so right [ __ ] here is this this question I just find really [ __ ] stupid. Right. barely just I don't really control the questions that people ask me. >> I like even putting that it's a good question, man. That one really makes you think about what it is that you value in Star Wars and whether you'd be willing to sacrifice anything from the past in order to delete essentially this >> you're making an enemy out of him with what you've just said. Holy [ __ ] Uhoh. >> The question is, yeah, >> you return of the Jedi. >> What? Just cuz I think this is a good question. >> Yeah, you [ __ ] idiot. God, >> you're loser. You hate >> because it's like >> this shouldn't even be up for de for a dis for serious. >> He got himself ding. I'm on the edge of my wonder. >> I don't know what side he's going to be on here though to be fair. Oh, he's he's a mega Lucas like you know zealot. Anything Lucas says everything else goes. >> But even >> that being said though, doesn't he also isn't he an anti- Disney zealot also? >> Yes, >> you can be both. >> Well, no, >> it's the easiest question. So, is he saying it's easy to say that you should lose an OT film to lose Disney Star Wars? >> Yeah, that's what I mean. I'm not 100% sure. >> Well, f I'll let him I'll let him explain his position. It shouldn't even BE UP FOR DEBATE. IT'S LIKE, why bother [ __ ] why [ __ ] bother sacrificing one film of the OT? Not like one. >> Oh, sorry. That's not the question, my man. >> Like, you you don't get to say it's a stupid question and and then say that like it's you don't get to say that it's an obvious choice and then make it a different question. >> Yeah, >> that's the whole point of the question is that it's becomes a lot harder if you need to get rid of one of the movies. I think he's really grasping with the logic of it as well. Like >> he has to keep hesitating while he's trying to formulate a sentence here and just throw [ __ ] it's just why [ __ ] would you >> you're this crazy this is recorded. Just take a >> breath. Calm down and think about what they're asking here. >> Yeah, you can always edit that afterwards. >> Sounds like a lot of work. >> It seems like >> No. Yeah, this is prepared. >> Seriously? >> Yeah. >> Well, it's paired. I don't know about it. >> But he's he's changing the question. He's like taking indignation that we could be contemplating it by changing the question to where it becomes much easier. >> Maybe maybe if he gets his next bit out, he might illuminate us a little bit. Believes >> I don't believe you don't see his grand design. >> Not like one film of the six part saga, but just the OT specifically. Why bother going through sacrificing one film to get rid of all of Disney Star Wars when we can just get Disney Star Wars. >> We can't just get rid of Disney Star Wars. We We can't just unmake it. We can't make it so that it never existed. >> Yeah. Like >> I think I think it's like it's funny. This has instantly made it to where it's like, dude, like I don't think I'm interested in literally anything that you think if like you can't understand like how a hypothetical works. Um >> well for him >> IQ high IQ individual >> for him and many others like him it's as simple as I don't consider it cannon so it isn't when obviously we've had this discussion a few times there's I guess two meaningful forms of what is cannon it's like what's in your head which is the one a lot of people are for and that's totally fine uh and then just official IP licenses that that kind of there's nothing else you can really do it's uh >> I I think as well the question was phrased almost as if you could just erase it from existence like it never happened in which case, you know, the the damage that it did to the fan base would be undone, etc. And that's that's quite a hefty question to grapple with. And I would say >> the details are really important on this. >> I think I think I am just stunned that someone asked a question, hey, what if you could get rid of this thing that's universally considered negative with one exception, but in order to do so, you have to sacrifice something that you value. It's like, ooh, that's interesting. And his response is like, what? Why would you even ask that question? It's like I don't know, man. For fun. >> Yeah. >> Well, I just want to be clear cuz I've seen a few people say like, "Why bother? This guy's obviously like trolling." It's like, he's real. He's very real. Um >> there's going to be >> understand these people live amongst us. >> There's there's going to be a clip at the end of this section uh that he deleted, but someone found luckily for us. And uh it's it'll tell you just how real he is. >> How bad does it be that he deleted it? >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It wasn't up to his It wasn't up to his >> This was like a grade material he was willing to put straight under there. >> This is good. This stuff's good. This was This is good stuff. >> Right. It's just It's like You guys see what I'm saying, right? It's just [ __ ] stupid that we even have to like that like the sheer [ __ ] font would come to [ __ ] Will Dreamer or the she >> Oh god. >> Oh my god. The poor guy who asked the question is catching it now. >> That's the guy who asked the question. >> [ __ ] that guy for asking the question. How dare you? >> Yeah, Will Dreamer, how dare you put hypothetical questions to us. >> Yeah, >> the idea that like we should consider it, but whatever. Let's just continue on with this [ __ ] >> I think that's probably worth it, by the way. >> Worth it. Worth it. Are you [ __ ] kidding me? Worth it. I love the high PITCH OF THE WORTH IT. >> It's even hard to argue against his his perspective, too, cuz it's just so clear that he he's not engaging with the hypothetical at all. >> No, no, he doesn't realize that it's a hypothetical. It's almost worse than that. He like he can't understand it. >> We've hatched our gonna happen. >> They say like, "No, no, no. Backseater." It's more like would you end this war but you have to sacrifice your your sister or your mother? It's like would he be like well I could just end the war. Yeah. Speaking hypothetically >> why not just use your magic powers to get everything you wanted all the time like you know having a hypothetical. >> Oh my god. He's about to beiz about talking about or whatever. It's like someone just throws thermonuclear on you for it. Like it's it's people are I don't get it, man. I don't understand the problem. >> He seems like he's turning into Grace Randolph the angry he gets. >> [ __ ] WHY? >> He's amazing. [ __ ] furious with all of us for evenating the question. >> One of the OT boys just breaks it in. Maybe one day if he can tell me. y can hear you. >> Bet you're intimidated now, buddy. >> Oh my god. >> I just love how he stopped and he's like, "Was that enough?" No, I need to go again. Point here. >> Can you imagine being his neighbor? >> Like, if they put him on smiling friends, they'd have to change nothing. Like this guy's too silly for smiling friends. Come on. You got to got to buck it down a bit. >> Little on the nose, guys. >> Are you Are you [ __ ] me? Are you sh Are you [ __ ] me? >> He's like a shaking. >> It's like he understands I'm not actually in his laptop, right? >> The little the little >> It's It's Zoolander logic. The files are inside the computer. >> Little man on my screen. I could squash you like a bug. You >> [ __ ] me, [ __ ] >> I could crush you. >> What the [ __ ] is wrong with you? >> This is as a cinematic choice. I find the camera shaking brilliant. >> ARE YOU ARE YOU that [ __ ] drunk? >> I I feel the name. >> This is legit like POV. You wake up in this guy's room tied to a chair. >> Tell you all about George Lucas and you just have to just nod and go along with it because you don't know what that box cutter is for. >> [ __ ] kill me. >> I I would never sacrifice a movie ever. I never would have and I only said it uh for super chats. That's why I said I hate him. He's a piece of [ __ ] I What an idiot. I know, right? Yeah. >> And I'd almost be afraid to say that because then he might just be like, "Oh, what? You don't want Disney Star Wars to get deleted?" going to be like, "Oh, yeah, I do. I just I don't want to do the OT delay." >> Are you high at me? >> He sounds like he's [ __ ] revving. >> Answer. >> Are you on crack? >> Are you taking the crack cocaine? >> Oh my god. >> This gentleman is unhinged. >> The greatest I've ever made someone. It's amazing. He's acting like this and ask and asking if Drinker is the one on crack. >> Oh god, I hope he's got it. But he's got this guy's favorite series of movies is one where anger is the path to the dark side and he seems to have missed this point. >> Yes. >> You haven't [ __ ] with this, have you? >> Or something. >> He's so pausible. It's amazing. >> ARE YOU JUST MENTALLY DEFICIENT or something? people. >> Oh, he's brilliant. >> This has to be scripted. The pauses are way too perfect. >> This might be my favorite video I've ever seen. This is amazing. This is >> I think the magic of uh there's a certain magic that comes from lowquality visual shitty microphone that peaks. Like it's these artifacts of the modern day >> fused with the core human experience is really just very potent. >> Yes. >> People return yearn for the return to the old ways. >> Yeah. Well, once it gets old enough, it's a style instead of just old tech. >> Lose something high definition video and audio. It's kind of overrated. >> It's funny as well because coming in for this, I thought, oh, you know, like who knows what kind of video I might be responding to here. I better have my wits about me. And then I see this I can just take a back seat with this one. It'll be fine. >> Oh, his name is the backseater. Nice. >> You did that on purpose. It was brilliant. >> SMARTER THAN THIS. WELL, I GUESS NOT ANYMORE SINCE I GUESS NOT BECAUSE, you know, HE LIKED IT. HE LIKES SKELETON CREW. He likes that [ __ ] So, I guess he really isn't all that smart as I hyped him up to be. >> Oh, he hyped you up as smart. >> Some disappointment there. Yeah. Betrayal in that voice. Oh, betrayed me. >> Is this like your long lost son or something? >> He's going to be tearing down that critical drinker poster he's got in his bathroom. I just know it. >> It'll be like Incredibles. Yeah, >> syndrome tears down the portrait of Mr. Incredible >> liking Andor. How could you? >> We're smart as he was originally. Who the [ __ ] knows anymore, man? This is just [ __ ] stupid. Drink drinker. NO JOKE. YOU SHOULD BE [ __ ] ASHAMED OF YOURSELF thinking of that. >> Yeah, [ __ ] you for reading that super chat. >> I feel like he passed a >> He just doesn't know what it's like to get a super chat, so maybe go easy on him. Okay, >> I think that was going somewhere else. >> Well, like I said, I'm pretty sure this is recorded and he uploaded it. This is all very prepped. This is all very specific. He did a very good job. Okay, I'll hear nothing else. >> WHAT THE [ __ ] BRO? WHAT THE [ __ ] >> OH, this is dangerous. Very, very >> Yes. Yes, Mer is right. >> Ah, there we go. >> You're right, Draco. >> I've once again stolen a fan from Drake. >> Mer is [ __ ] stupid for liking Andor. >> Oh, >> never mind. You were right in there for a second, M. >> Damn it, >> dude. >> One minute you're up, the next you're down again. >> You never know with this guy >> is right. WE SHOULDN'T BE [ __ ] THINKY. We should be thinking about just trashing Disney Star Wars endlessly for it being FAKE STAR WARS. THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD DO. >> My man, >> I think you need to find other things in life. It it seems that that's that's all anything is. Either you doing something that in some way leads to trashing Disney Star Wars or you're not. And it makes you an enemy or a hero, you know, and that's it. >> This is what fandom does to a [ __ ] >> Yep. I mean, we rarely say it in like a sincere way, but you may want to go outside. Like, it might actually be something that's super important for you. >> Pretty cool, huh? >> Don't inflict him on the rest of us. >> I'm not going to swim across. >> Well, maybe if he just maybe if he goes deep nature, you know, out into the forest somewhere and just screams for a while, >> dude. You guys can see >> that the [ __ ] autumn subtitles when he said ma. It's calling you M. It's calling you Mela. It called drinka. >> Yeah. >> I think I called you Mel at one point. >> He's a [ __ ] idiot for liking Andor, but he's RIGHT HERE. HE IS R I G H T. >> Do you think he's struggling? >> I [ __ ] love aggressive cursor waggling, by the way. That's a great genre of like anger. I think it's a good way to express yourself. >> What's wonderful about what's wonderful about this part here too is he's talking about how right Mhler is when Muller actually didn't even give an answer. He just said this is dangerous >> dangerous. >> Right, sir. Right. >> Dangerous. >> He called me sir. Bet you guys are jealous. >> Jedi would have >> [ __ ] SO [ __ ] GEORGE COMES OUT HERE. >> Everybody [ __ ] George, what are you doing? What's funny, of course, is that under the umbrella, if you sacrifice one of them, I assume everyone agrees, you probably do have to go with Return of the Jedi, >> unfortunately. >> Like, how are you going to kill four or five, you got to kill six, I'm sorry, if you kill him one of them. So, him being like, what? Like, as a follow was like, well, that I mean, that should have just been self-evident, dude. >> He's all like, oh yeah, we should we should [ __ ] sacrifice turn the chat. [ __ ] sacrifice turn the chat. First of all, no, it's stupid. I already said that too. >> How many syllables? >> First of all, no, I've already disregarded the question. >> I like these I've got so many responses. First of which is no. Second of which is like, okay, >> I think I love how we just in his mind if he says something is stupid, that's it. Argument. >> That's the argument. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, I've demolished that one. Now on to the next thing. That's stupid as well. If you just stopped him though and said, "Okay, backseat, we're not going to sacrifice Return of the Jedi, but that means Disney Star Wars is staying in this scenario." >> He doesn't understand it anyway. Like he doesn't he doesn't understand >> like I don't know how else to say it other than like he's actually >> Yeah. >> You know what? Look, it's it's okay. We could just >> his imagined future like it will get decanonized and then I guess we'll all just eventually forget about it. So, it's it'll be like effectively Disney Star Wars never existed. So, that's good enough for him. >> And that's definitely going to happen IN HIS MIND. >> GODAMN ENDING. ARE YOU [ __ ] ME, GEORGE? >> Godamn it, George. >> But again, it's this is like the he doesn't we're dealing with the hypothetical of the question, >> but he's almost found the interesting avenue of discussion. Like even if all of us agreed we would never actually remove one of them in exchange for getting rid of Disney, it's still fun to think about. Hence the whole hypothetical thing. But he just said like the ending and it's like well yeah but versus the beginning or the middle >> like Yeah. >> I'm actually I'm actually beginning to wish that we'd reacted as he is reacting right now to that question. >> What happened the next 15 minutes just screaming >> yelling at the guy who left the super chat. >> Yeah. >> Oh my god. How come nobody leaves? Well, George says like I guess it would be Return of the Jedi. And the drink goes >> the ending. You want to get rid of the ending? >> Okay. I'm sorry. I mean I mean The EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. THE MIDDLE. >> The middle. I'M SORRY. A NEW HOPE. THE BEGINNING. >> WHAT? >> WELL, YEAH. I think it would have to either be like Star Wars or Return of the Jedi because you can't cut the middle out of a story that you have a beginning and an end. >> I wouldn't I wouldn't go It's Return of the Jedi. It's obviously Return of the Jedi. No, I mean obviously I agree, but I feel like he would probably if he was like at gunpoint said which one of these movies disappears forever. I feel like he'd ultimately land on Return of the Jedi anyways. >> Yeah, I think so. >> I don't think he'd ultimately land on anything. >> I think he would land on Pull the [ __ ] >> You'd have to start it off by explaining in a magical far away fantasy world very similar to ours, what would someone maybe do presented with this question? No, >> he's a man. >> No, it's not our world. It's not our universe. >> No compromise. >> Not it. >> IT'S LIKE THAT'S THE [ __ ] FILM THAT CAPS THE [ __ ] >> Yeah, we know what an ending is. >> Off and you want to DO AWAY WITH IT? WHAT? >> Nobody wants to do anything. It's a point of the question. Yeah. Okay. >> Then we BASICALLY HAVE NO ENDING. NO, >> basically >> just Yeah, that's outright. >> If you get rid of the sequels, we definitely don't get a an even bigger ending. >> This is giving me flashbacks. This is giving me flashbacks to the previous video. Did you know that if you remove the ending, then you basically don't have an ending. >> Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. I think I think it depends, my dude. >> It depends. Yeah. >> Do you run a channel where you could tell me more things like this? >> Yeah. Mark Brown's GMTK >> basically just left hanging after ASB. >> He he truly hasn't understood that the point is you don't want to get rid of any of them and like >> no like I don't know how many times can be said he he is he is incapable of understanding what a hypothetical is. He doesn't get it like his response to the question is >> obviously you just get rid of Disney Star Wars without losing anything. like he I it is kind of stunning because usually what happens with hypotheticals, especially difficult ones that people don't want to deal with is they understand the point. They know what you're getting at, but they don't want to deal with it because it's annoying and awkward. Um, this is like different to that. It's not a case of understanding the hypothetical and how answering it could be detrimental to being persuasive and then choosing not to do it and then like sort of doing, oh, but that's, you know, that's not even real. What are we talking about? This is a case of like he genuinely doesn't appear to understand that this is just hey under these circumstances bound by these rules what would you choose to do? But obviously it can't happen. >> Yeah. I mean let's say there's a wizard who can cast a magic spell from this far away land and it's not our world. It's along it's another world that's out there somewhere but not ours. And you try to bridge the gap between the hypothetical and the real to get them to accept it. >> Yeah. seems like to me $10 million and we take your left leg too or no money at all and your right leg grows back. >> I'd have to think about that. >> I think it's like he he doesn't realize cuz again this expands on it. He doesn't understand that the whole value of the hypothetical is it makes you try to weigh up what it is that you value about, you know, the alternatives, right? Like how much do you value the integrity of the original trilogy if it means that you get to, you know, essentially get rid of for the most part absolute despair in hell versus whether or not it's it's actually worthwhile to allow it to exist for as horrible as it's mainly been because there's one thing in there that's like particularly valuable and you don't want to compromise the original trilogy. Like he doesn't real he doesn't realize that the point of the question is to just tease that out. That's like what hypotheticals are for cuz hypo you can't do a hype like you can't do it. You can't delete the one film from the OT and then remove Disney Star Wars. It's not possible. Like he's treating like >> time machines and guns and all sorts of stuff. Yeah. It's it's fantasy. >> WHAT THE [ __ ] GEORGE? >> OH YEAH. SORRY. Why do we even talk? Why are we even talking? Like why are we doing this? Like we just meant to This is just to suffer. We got another 14 minutes of this, too. >> Come on. >> Oh my god. >> Return of the Jedi. >> I think WE'D ALL SACRIFICE THAT. >> WHY? >> I'm so sorry. It's just a question of the person. >> Oh my god. It's going to turn green. >> Whoever said how long it's going to take for him to make a second point. >> Sorry. What was that? I say want to start a pool for like guesses of how long it's going to take him to make a second point other than why or no. >> No, I don't he will he made his point which is you delete Disney Star Wars and you don't delete anything from the OT. >> So it's like that's it. That's his that's his only point cuz he doesn't understand. >> Yeah. Because in his mind he's like why would these fools randomly and arbitrarily decide to destroy one of the original trilogy films for no reason at all? I hope whoever sent that message and is here and enjoying this. >> Will Dreamer. Yeah. I hope he's all right out there. You know, >> he couldn't have known. >> Yes. >> Oh, wait. What did I say? >> I was a genius. >> WHY? >> YES. SMALLER. YES. >> OH, I said you can't really kill any of the three of them. But it didn't even say why yet. He just agrees with me. >> YES. YOU CAN'T. >> OH, there's my name. We got Müller. Mer >> kill the three of them. If you do, THE WHOLE [ __ ] HOUSE OF CARDS GOES DOWN. >> WELL, NO. >> I think this question has genuinely broken this man's brain. >> There are consequences. >> It's amazing. >> But uh no, the house would not go down and that's precisely why you would want to keep um four and five. >> You still have two films. Yeah, >> hypothetically, >> you would be in a pretty good place with Star Wars if uh you know, you remove Return of the Jedi and you remove the sequel trilogy. I mean, there's just so many time traveler assassinated George. Weird. >> Well, and I guess something that's worth realizing as well is it means you get one, two, and three. Like, they're still they're fine no matter what. >> You can make six again. >> Maybe make it better. Just keep everything from the third act. Get rid of the Ewoks. fix a job at palace and then you're good to go. >> [ __ ] essentially rebuild two top to bottom rewrite. It's not like a film. >> And clearly Star Wars as a brand and as a fan base would be in an infinitely better position in the current day if that had happened than what we've actually got. >> And then just get Tony Gilroy on the phone and go like, "Hey man, we just need you. We'll give you five seasons as well by the way. You know, you complete creative control. You have as much money as you need." Yes. >> So, there's that perspective, but then there's also this one. >> MER IS 100% IN THE RIGHT HERE. >> WELL, it's hard to disagree with him. >> He makes a good argument, guys. Mo, are you basking in this victory? I hope you are. >> That's the best W for you. Jeez. >> Might be your finest hour on YouTube. >> Yes. >> Fundamentally changes Star Wars forever if you kill any of those. >> YES, >> he's ready to engage that part. I see your hands back, Cedar. Where are we? >> Like the dark lord being given tribute. >> More. >> Yes. See, even Fringy realizes that >> truly the lowest of the low. >> Isn't that gooseing plag the bottom of the barrel has managed to make it in? >> Yeah. He realized it >> and he doesn't even like the Halo show based off the game of the same name. >> Oh my god. >> I was drinking some water and it's uh it's come out because I shouldn't have started by mistake. No water for the next however long it takes for >> to gamble with this guy. >> Fringy, keep thinking that. Tell George. >> Keep thinking. >> Tell George. >> Tellingy. Tell George. >> Tell George. >> Well, I can't do it now. I can't do it. I I don't have a time machine, but hypothetically, maybe I would. >> No. It's like drink. He thinks this is happening in real time in his laptop. He's yelling at these people. >> The little people in the boxes in the magic box. Yeah. >> WHO THE [ __ ] THIS ICE GUY IS? Tell Chris Gar that [ __ ] TELL [ __ ] DRINKER THAT AND TELL CHRIS G SCORE THAT AI ISN'T REAL film making. >> Okay. So that's extra stuff that I don't even extra things going on. >> What the [ __ ] Everything in the kitchen like don't know where this is going to go. >> Yeah. Be [ __ ] [ __ ] >> We can't be can't be erasing. >> Yes. >> Jedi. >> Yes. Don't do that. >> Yeah. >> Oh, of Well, of course these [ __ ] do it because of the damn Ewoks. It's >> so angry, dude. It's too much for me. >> Do we have an Ewok fan? Is he Is he pro? >> Yeah. I honestly don't know which way this is going to go. >> Are they What we're dealing with is a guy who is like, "The OT is perfect. You bring the Ewoks." He's like, "Fuck, yes, okay, fine. The Ewoks aren't perfect." >> Ewoks are misunderstood. >> He did call them damn Ewok. I'm >> Yeah. Just one of those things, you know, like look, I'm no [ __ ] Ewok fan. I don't give a [ __ ] about the Ewoks, but they are they do not [ __ ] kill RTJ. Get the [ __ ] out of here. >> They don't help it, though. >> No one said they killed it. They just said it's bad. Yeah, >> they make it really bad. I don't know. >> Yep. They killed the pace for twothirds of it or at least a third of it even. It's uh they're hard to get through. It feels like twothirds of it somehow. >> Yes. >> But it Well, actually that makes sense because you know they're coming so they kill the pace already. So you're already dreading their arrival before they're on screen. >> You're on Tatooine. We're like, "Oh god, we're getting closer to the [ __ ] teddy bears, aren't we?" >> [ __ ] Come on, man. Sure, you can hate like the Ewoks cartoon and whatnot. You can call them [ __ ] >> You can call them just there for the kitty. >> Was he like preparing there? >> Go either way. >> Return of the Jedi is weirdly in this hypothetical the animated Ewok show. >> That but they do that. But they do not ruin the damn movie. Get out of here with that [ __ ] No, >> because hypothetically I guess it's the option is always open to do Return of the Jedi. >> Okay. Well, okay. Well, who who makes Return of the Jedi in this hypothetical world where it never got >> I feel like he's finally maybe getting it now. >> Yeah, he said the word hypothetical. >> He did. >> He's taken a step towards the truth here. >> I don't think he understands the word hypothetical. I think he's just paring what Drinker said. Well, and also he's saying who makes it in this hypothetical world. George George Lucas is still alive. >> And I guess again it leads you to another hypothetical question of okay, say you do remove Return of the Jedi and you've then got rid of Disney Star Wars. Uh the option is then open to remake it and potentially anyone could do it. And then that can spark a whole other conversation about well if we were doing it now who would do it or who could have made it in the 1980s >> you know and okay that's another avenue of conversation because it's almost like that's the whole point of this question just to get us talking about interesting possibilities. Well, someone in his chats just suggested a trapper wolf could make the third one. You know, Return of the Jedi choice. >> He's a cool guy with cool friends. >> Made back in 83 and and and Star Wars just continues on as normal. It's like, okay, first of all, without Return of the Jedi, the [ __ ] E like 95 97 99 that of the EU would not happen. So that's [ __ ] Wait, without the Ewoks? >> Without the Ewok? >> Without Return of the Jedi. >> Stay. Okay, >> think about that. >> Something would replace it. It might still happen. >> Like half the authors. Timothy Zhan still writes [ __ ] He could just rewrite his trilogy. >> Or he could have he could have written he could write Return of the Jedi. Return of the Jedi. >> That's what I was going to say. Like the ending to the trilogy would probably have been written as an EU book if George Lucas said, "I'm not making Star Wars movies." anymore, but people can make books after Empire. Like, if not Timothy's on, then somebody >> would be like, "Well, that story is pretty incomplete. Can we write one that kind of finishes off the whole Luke, I am your father storyline that we started?" >> Do the prequels even Do all those books still happen the same in this world? >> Maybe it's for the best that the prequels don't happen the same. >> Yeah. >> Who knows? >> Well, yeah, because they're bad. >> That's a lot of the books. It's also not unheard of for someone to be writing a story, get like three, four books into it, and then decide, okay, the next one's going to be a prequel. So, it's it's not even like George >> just not finish their massive book series at all. Do you think >> who on earth? >> No one would do that, surely. >> No. >> Maybe some Brave Souls will make an HBO show that ends it. It'll be great. >> [ __ ] EU is contingent on Return of the Jedi happening and the Empire, you know, basically, you know, falling over and [ __ ] You know, he has a way with the prequels even fuckingles, but he just tosses in a contingent in there. >> Like, and does Disney still buy Star Wars in this world? Bro, you're not even really thinking about this. >> Well, but that was a good question. >> It's funny. >> The problem that he has here is that the problem he has is that this Will Dreamer guys super chat was not detailed enough in his hypothetical. >> Yeah. >> But like, >> yeah, it wasn't an essay. >> We haven't even we barely even talked about it yet. Like how much time question was read and where he's paused in like the actual open bar episode? 20 seconds >> if that. >> How about we sort of at least sort of recognizing that these are things that might get talked about. >> Yeah. See, even Fring is bringing that up. You know, it's a a fair pointy bringing it up. Oh boy. >> [ __ ] all that much. So, okay, let's fine. Disney Disney comes along, buys it, they do Return of the Jedi, they do the EU, they do the prequels, they do the sequel trilogy, etc., etc. >> He's just going off on his own thing now. >> Well, okay. Actually, this is partially contributing to the let's just say he he was in the call and he had said the reason why I don't think we should even risk losing one film uh for them if it were an option is because ultimately it only knocks out one of the ones that led to really good Star Wars [ __ ] and likely ends us on a on a you know a format that gives us Disney back anyway. And um because of the lack of detail, what if it means deleting all of Disney's catalog, but they still have control of Star Wars, in which case all that happens is we get more [ __ ] Um, or if it means it changes history forever, is that the roll of the dice that you want to take? What if it means consequently that we lose a lot of really good cinema? Um, and we don't even realize what it would have meant, you know, like Return of the Jedi inspired a [ __ ] ton of actors and and filmmakers of all kinds. Um, and maybe without >> inspired writers to not write like that. >> Yeah. Um, but you know, it's like it's just a big old butterfly effect. But the fact the fact is it's like, oh, so it was stupid. It's like, no, no, no. the discussion was the point, right? That's what a lot of super chats try to do is is basically say a thing that makes you all start discussing stuff that you maybe wouldn't have in other any other circumstance. And that's why it's cool. You know, it's a perfectly fine POV to say that you don't want to destroy any of them in exchange for Disney because you don't think it would be ultimately worth it, but it's also fine to say the reverse and have a little discussion about >> explore all the possibilities. I think Drinker, you need to keep this guy on speed dial for future open bars. So if if these questions come up, he just logs in immediately and goes, "Why?" And then you mute him again and then it's >> um when I announce my retirement, I'm going to suggest him as my replacement drinker. >> I mean, open bar will be a very eventful place in that case. >> Every time you're like, "So the new uh Disney stars, he's like, "You hate it, right? >> You better hate it." >> They count that they're Disney and Disney can't handle Star Wars. Well, you [ __ ] [ __ ] >> But you've already said it doesn't matter what they do with it. You hate it anyway. So, it's not that they can't handle it well. You just you automat like cuz he said, you know, andor scale and crew, whatever it is, it's all terrible. You have to be against it. >> Their handling is irrelevant. >> Does he I don't know. You probably know this guy better than I do. Does he offer any analysis of any of these shows or is it just a blanket >> last time we covered it bad? He he was like Andor's bad. I don't I don't think he was really specific. He just kept saying it was bad over and over and over again. >> Bad because Disney and Disney. >> Were you convinced? >> Well, I was con I've had arguments with you guys about how bad Andor is since I watched his coverage cuz it kind of opened my mind up a bit. >> You won me over. Yeah. I think it's pretty bad. >> He won me over. >> I when I was told that Disney made it, it kind of put things in a new perspective. >> It makes you think. >> I realized so much from that time. >> Mhm. >> I learned a lot. and get rid of the Last Jedi and Force Awakens and Skywalker. >> Okay, again, George, IT'S LIKE A F GETTING rid of the sequel trilogy isn't going to save Star Wars. What's going to save Stars is to get rid of the entirety of Disney Stars. That >> Well, that's a hypothetical sequel trilogy. Perfect is the enemy of the good. I'm going to point out here, but we could definitely start with getting rid of sequels. That would go a long way. That'd be the lion's share of the problems actually. >> Yeah, the hypothetical said if you could delete Disney Star Wars, which depending on where you take that, it could mean their entire current catalog or they stay in charge or you delete them outright as having control over Star Wars and all their Star Wars stuff. >> THAT IS HOW YOU SAVE Star Wars. Deanize all of Disney's [ __ ] >> Fire everyone working at Lucas. >> What's so weird is that this is in the hypothetical technically. >> Yeah. Yep. Yeah, you can get rid of them. >> Fire everyone. >> I mean, I would >> everyone. >> You probably should. Yeah, but >> even the key. >> This guy's like framing it as if this is things that can happen realistically in our current world. Like, yeah, we're just going to fire everyone at Lucasfilm and decanonize everything they've done. >> Group, bring back as much of the old guard as possible. Also, you have to >> I don't even think he knows who the old guard is. He'd be like George Lucas and um uh >> his friends >> Dave Fona who was working for George Lucas >> our horse worse. I mean like >> do we sure we want the whole old guard >> DCW because that shit's a redconny mess. Y >> he doesn't like DCW. There you go. Points for him or not depending on your perspective. >> Well, I mean we're basically just flipping the coin and it it landed correctly that time. Who knows? do some minor rewrites of some of the of some of the EU material that came out after 2008. Some minor re >> He's actually engaging, if you know what I mean, without realizing it. He's like, "This is what we would need to do. Put this here and do this." I mean, yeah, we're kind of progressing more into just what his ideal scenario would be. But, okay, I'll take it. >> I'm getting the camera >> by raging about how wrong we are to even suggest this question. and he's accidentally stumbled into answering the question we most commonly get asked in this sort of format, which is, you know, how do you save Star Wars? And he's gotten very specific about each of these different pieces. And the the question's interesting because it almost gets you there depending on your interpretation. You can make this happen, but is it worth the loss of Return of the Jedi, but potentially the recreation of maybe, >> right? just to account for just to uh [ __ ] patch up the [ __ ] [ __ ] that the mess that uh TCW made [ __ ] >> mile a minute with this guy. >> Not drastic rewrites. Like I'm not saying we have to rewrite the entirety of Fate of the Jedi or anything like that. >> Well, like what if we stopped him here and said, "Okay, all of that happens, but you have to delete one OT. You do it." >> THAT'S THE PRICE. >> WHY WOULD I DO THAT? >> NO. You'll just put him in his doom loop again. You can't and overstress his mind. >> And then carry on as usual as it was business as usual back in the day. And don't bring back any [ __ ] Disney [ __ ] Don't bring Ry back and put her in the >> Look who he's talking. Just to be clear, >> the panel he's talking at right now. Don't bring Ry back. Cuz though we're all going to be like, "Oh, fine. I guess >> I can fix her. >> Don't bring [ __ ] Leia. Don't bring any of that bullshit." >> Leia. >> This guy was on a roll. >> I think he was on a roll and it's just like listing all this [ __ ] that he hates. caught on that one. >> Star Wars >> danger close. He's just like sat stupid [ __ ] piano. >> Everyone's getting onto the lifeboats from Star Wars as a total. It's all OT stuff. Leia's there and he's like no women. Okay, enough of that. >> Maybe he just forgot to specify flying Leia. Maybe >> don't bring any of that stupid [ __ ] [ __ ] from Disney Star Wars in >> like Leia. >> Okay. >> She's in those movies. >> I think I accidentally said Leia and I >> MEANT having a moment of clarity. She's gone now. Collateral damage. I'm sorry, buddy. He's like, "What have I done? >> What did he confuse her with there?" >> I'm looking forward to finding out what he confused her with. >> Say like po. >> Easy to confuse those two. Yeah. >> Po Leia. >> I thought it was going to be like at least another female character that with a name maybe that begins with L. Not Oh, when I said Leia, I meant Po. >> Po. >> It don't [ __ ] matter. Anyway, >> I think it does though, doesn't it? Like I think that's your whole why you made this video why it matters. But all right, >> moving on. >> Okay, >> just just want to make more. >> I believe him. >> Come on. Anything is worth to get rid of Book of Boba Fett and Lizo and Jack Black. Come on. >> Okay. All right. F. All right. Fine. But George again. Okay. So, he is talking about all of Disney stars in general, right? Cuz that is >> of course that was the equation. >> Yeah. He's getting close. He's getting closer. >> Questions are written on the screen, too. >> He's like, "Maybe I was wrong about you, George." >> So crazy. >> The comment says, "If you could delete Disney Star Wars, not the sequel trilogy, Disney Star Wars, fine. But George, you're ignoring." >> So, you've been extremely angry all the way up till now, and he just realized it was all of this. And suddenly, it's like, hm. I'm I'm genuinely fascinated to see where this goes now that he's finally engaging with the question. >> The [ __ ] obvious dilemma here. >> Sacrificing ROJ is not [ __ ] >> necessary. There we go. >> Remember what I said to you before? If you overstress his mind, he'll just go straight back to rage. >> We're all the way back to square one. He's like, it's not necessarily. But what if it was That's the question, my man. >> He's also shouting at George as though this is his fault. >> Damn it, George. >> You are. >> Okay, this is um >> I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. >> I feel violated. >> Okay, so I you know, I I think I think this is a little bit unhinged. >> I think this is modern >> I think this is very unhinged. This guy has woken up from a fugue state more than once in his life with blood all over him. >> Is he like Moonnight? >> Personality comes out. >> He just wakes up with a gun in his hand driving a car. >> Wait, does he think that Moonnight was played by Carrie Fisher? >> Yes. >> Oh my god, it got so close. >> Oh. Oh wow. Wow. Did you turn down the mic there or was he just clipping so hard that his mic was just like, I'm not even going to pick this up at all. >> Look, you want passion on YouTube or not? >> Anyone outside his room like, "Oh my god, what is going on in there?" >> All right, there we go. >> Are you okay? You're yelling. You're yelling again at your computer friends. Are are you okay? >> They're trying to destroy Star Wars. Bob, >> I know, honey. I know, honey. But you need to wash up. Dinner's almost ready. >> Okay. >> The acolyte you're getting rid of like Obi-Wan, Kenobi, >> Bubble Fit, >> Ahsoka. >> You say this like we wouldn't make more bad stuff and now we would be dead. >> Yes. Smaller. >> Smaller. >> I am a bad of many names. >> Yes. If we get her all that and this just serves as one giant [ __ ] reset button for Disney's for Disney, THEY'RE STILL GOING TO MAKE CRAPPY [ __ ] >> But that's the thing though. If someone could say back to me, what if it means they don't get to make any more stuff cuz you delete them outright? You know, it's a discussion. >> Going back to past me, I'm pretty sure I bring that point up. >> But we'll never know drinker cuz he pauses more than we do. still gonna COME OUT WITH A DIFFERENT sequel trilogy, but that one will be equally, if not more, ASS. >> YEAH. Like I mean, would you would you take a reroll on Disney doing the sequels again? >> Well, because you figured the first thing they would make is an ending to the original trilogy. And in that scenario, I think there's at least the possibility that they might not have just thrown out all of Lucas's ideas and maybe said, "Okay, >> if the question is Disney, as it stands right now, given the shot of making Return of the Jedi again because we've deleted everything past Empire, I think it's a safe 99.9% bet it would be worse than the current Return of the Jedi." Like that's a >> probably >> Are we also saying like they would make it in current day? >> So, they've got to somehow carry on the story like 30 years later. I think that's one of the, you know, that's one of the timelines. And then the other one is the I don't know the one where Disney doesn't get it at all and it's just who does it pass to which again I think is really interesting to think about. Like let's just say George died unfortunately and uh Return of the Jedi like like Star Wars' rights move and then they have to find someone else to do it and we had the choice. It's like who makes that movie? I actually don't think that's a really horrifying [ __ ] version of history if we get to give another go. And by the way, on the front of the sequels getting rerolled, I think that's a guaranteed yes. Like, why would we not take that option? >> And they might still be bad, but they won't be bad in the same way as >> Yeah. Dave will only rank and it'll just be a case, well, Ahsoka will be in charge now. But, you know, at least you won't necessarily kill Luke Skywalker. >> Bad instead of definitely bad. We know the version that exists now. If you asked me to call it, I would say it they are likely to be like trivially better, you know, like not particularly >> I think they'll be most meaningful sense, but it'll be more boring. >> More arm crossing things not happening. >> Yeah. >> But boring, I'll take boring over terrible. >> Mhm. >> At least for the purposes of this question. >> Maybe as a viewing experience they'd be. Yeah. >> Thing though, one really [ __ ] important thing though. You [ __ ] IDIOT. WHAT THE [ __ ] IS GEORGE even doing here? >> Damn it, George. I'm sorry, >> George. Pull your weight. >> Amazon. >> You [ __ ] [ __ ] George. >> I like how he stopped and wanted to hit play and it's like, "No, I'll give him one more." You [ __ ] [ __ ] >> Godamn it, George. >> You won. What are THE CONSEQUENCES OF ERASING? >> YES. M. YES. Come on. I'm I'm both embarrassed based here. >> Mer is mega based. >> Truly. >> Did everyone here EXCEPT MER JUST TAKE THE BLUE PILL? >> YEAH, FRINGY. YEAH, DRINKER. >> What happened? >> Yeah. What? What happened to even Fringy? He's forgotten. You've lost the even. You've been demoted from even frigy to just regular frey. >> Yeah. >> Said anything. >> I don't even know what I said that made him say even freaky >> before the [ __ ] stream started. >> Yeah, but they're talking about erasing Disney Star Wars. So potentially like there's never going to be another Star Wars thing made by >> Okay, good. >> Oh, well there you go. Is he Is he Is he like just one over now? >> Yeah, there you go. >> Good. That's what we want. We don't want Disney to make any more Star Wars. >> I don't think he heard what you said. >> Well, yeah. Oh, God. At this point, it's hard to tell. >> BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO SACRIFICE EPISODE SIX. >> YES, that's the framing of the question that we have to work within. Get rid OF IT ALL. JUST GET RID OF IT ALL NORMALLY BY SAYING, >> "YEAH, he's gone back to not understanding what a hypothetical is." Great. >> Just use your time machine in a normal way and just get rid of Disney. >> Dude, I'm just imagining him getting that question asked by a friend in in real life and he's like, "Hey, what do you think if we just delete all of Disney's Star Wars or we have to get rid of one of the OG and and like this?" He just >> I just >> slowly slowly moves his head towards the guy like >> I friends would be found in an unmarked grave, dude. Like >> I would love to put all kinds of, you know, difficult philosophical questions like your two best friends are in front of you. They've both been poisoned and you only have enough antidote to save one. Which one do you save? >> Absolutely. Where did you get that po poison antidote from? Get another one. >> I will take the regrown right leg and $10 million. Thank you. >> Exactly. This has made hypotheticals way easier. Mark Brown should make a video about this like how to how to how to defeat all hypotheticals. >> Abs. I mean, it's an interesting debating strategy. Honestly, just utterly refused to engage with any questions. >> Well, he's debates are gay and so are hypotheticals. He's also managed to completely annihilate his own position in the sense that we've gotten way more discussion out of the actual question now thanks to this than we even did on the open bar stream. Just being like, "Oh, yeah. I guess you can go that way, that way, that way, >> you know?" >> Oh, done. Done. >> Easy as that. >> Chris, you got to agree with this, right? Killing Return of the Jedi would have incredible consequences on >> Yeah. >> I mean, forget it, Mer. Come on, Mer. I >> just just so you didn't hear that. I said the consequences of the history of cinema. This is his reaction to that. >> Know you're a [ __ ] normie who doesn't read the EU and you've only played like a handful of the EU games. I know he's played the the Jango Fett bounty hunter game >> base game by the way. >> Jenga Jenga. >> Come on mother >> history of cinema. >> Forget the history of Star Wars here. >> We don't need cinema but we have Star Wars. to be just to be so [ __ ] clear about this. I'm just saying like the ripple effect of losing Return of the Jedi could hit in ways we would never anticipate because of what it changed about everything in terms of like influencing people or culture. So, I'm saying even if we prevent Disney from making anything ever again, it goes to a better source. It's like I don't know what it means to everything else if we lose Return of the Jedi. It could be a butterfly effect that we regret. And then I'm like, you know, uh Chris, what do you think? Like in terms of influences about that and the backseat is like who the [ __ ] cares about the history of cinema? like you do. This is what made Star Wars Star Wars. >> Just think about the about [ __ ] Star Wars cuz this is a Star Wars question. >> Well, I mean like the concept of the trilogy was pretty solidified as a thing that you would aspire to do in cinema as opposed to just making standalone sequels by like Star Wars trilogy, right? Like that was the first one that was super successful. >> Forget about the history of cinema. We're talking about Star Wars. How can you talk about the history of cinema? Star Wars is not coming out. >> Cinema has three prequels if there wasn't a return of the Jedi. Or would you maybe have gotten one or two? >> Has very LITTLE TO DO WITH THIS QUESTION. >> Cinema in general has little to do with this question. >> Sorry, Mer. Not based anymore. You cringe now. >> Somebody who loves Star Wars so much would be really really keen to stress how immensely impactful it was on the entire history of cinema. And that's a massive point in its favor. But >> I guess not. Yes, it would. >> I honestly don't think this guy cares about any movies outside of Star Wars. >> Does he know they exist? >> Possibly he doesn't even know they exist. I don't know. >> With that a lot. >> Yeah. >> Okay. At least Chris recognizes that. Hang on. I want to make sure I'm correct about what Chris said here. >> As opposed to the Yeah. Make sure it's corre correct about that as opposed to the, you know, framing of the entire question up until this point. At least there skewered George over and over again for just asking like normal questions. >> Yes, it would. Even though I have a lot of problems with that film a lot. >> At le or at least Chris realizes that getting rid of it is a bad idea. But again, it's cinema in general. It's like come on Chris, think Star Wars specifically. >> Oh my god. Don't forget this wider picture [ __ ] about the history of cinema. >> Who the [ __ ] cares about cinema? Come on. >> This guy has got a stellar career as a media critic. I love him. >> I can tell already. >> No, I I don't want to lose it. I JUST FEEL LIKE >> THEN DON'T GET RID OF IT, DUMBASS. >> Actually treat it like you've got to hand over the button and that if you press it, it'll happen. He's like, "Don't do it." He's immediately gone through you. Don't do it, dude. >> Is it worth it to get rid of all THIS OTHER GARBAGE? >> NO, YOU DON'T HAVE TO SACRIF They can't, you know, the past versions of all of these wacky characters cannot reply to you. Mhm. >> I think we've proven that he definitively thinks we're all live in his computer. >> The evil voices within his computer. >> Why must I repeat myself to these people? >> It's like they're not even listening TO ME. >> DON'T HAVE TO SACRIFICE [ __ ] to GET RID OF [ __ ] DON'T HAVE TO sacrifice [ __ ] to get. >> I like the just the Chad maxing of just like refuse to gauge in the hypo the hypothetical. Just take the parts you don't like and just be done with them. Just toss them away. >> Exactly. >> Engages with other people's hypotheticals. >> Real pearls of wisdom have come out of this though. You don't have to get rid of [ __ ] to get rid of [ __ ] >> Yeah, >> that's quite profound. >> Of the year right there. >> [ __ ] YOU DON'T HAVE TO SACRIFICE ONE FILM to get rid of everything DISNEY HAS MADE. COME ON. >> You don't have to shake hands with the devil to do this deal with the devil scenario. Like >> Yeah. I mean, you do. Well, every every time he does this, you're like, "But what if he did?" >> Then he's like, "No, >> they'll just make more garbage anyway." >> All based again. >> Back in his good graces. >> I uh I'm based again. >> Of your career. >> When I'm when I'm saying things wrong, he calls me smaller. And when I'm saying things right, I'm I'm bigler or something. He's got some kind of like approval meter that we can't see that when it like empties out, that's when he just attacks someone. >> Shatner right now on Twitter. Let me share something. You've got to see this. >> Is it Is it the Luke Gay thing? >> Yes, it is. >> Luke Gay thing. >> This is This stems from an article from like 2017 or something. >> So good. >> Now they're completely off topic. >> Oh no. Oh no, the conversation's moved on. >> Damn you. >> Shatner responds. >> So >> because Shatner doesn't give a [ __ ] >> Yeah, he doesn't. >> All right. >> Why are we talking about him now? Come on. >> What a yell. >> Such a child. It's so funny. >> You can all see it, >> bro. Go back on topic. Come on. >> Yeah, we got [ __ ] to do. >> I have a rhythm here. Godamn it. The chicken nugies are almost done. I got [ __ ] to do. Wait, so when you move on to the next super chat, he's going to lose his [ __ ] mind. >> Yes. >> Is this is it just this [ __ ] now? >> Right. Shatner, for those Star Wars fans who are trying to tell me that Disney ruined everything, I assume you're afraid to borrow Jade. Hamilton actually ruined it for you when he revealed that Liquid was gay. Mara being stuck struck from Star Wars cannon was part of her anomment agreement from the Force. >> Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah. [ __ ] Okay. Yeah. William Shatner's being based here though. Yeah. >> I feel like I need >> All right. That simmerred him right down. Yeah. This is old as [ __ ] This is from 2016, >> right? And to be fair, it's a misrepresentation of what he said because he was like, "If if you know, if it makes you feel better and it validates your existence or whatever stupid thing, yeah, Luke was gay. Sure, let's go with that." >> No, no, no. >> Isn't [ __ ] gay. That's [ __ ] obvious. >> Yeah. The He just didn't even listen. It's like It's like if it makes you happy to just imagine Luke is gay, go for it. And he's like, "No, but he's not." You're like, "Yeah, yeah, that's Yeah, it's Yes. If you read the [ __ ] books. >> Yeah. Drinker. Can you even read >> the books? >> You read the books. You knew he wouldn't be gay. >> The books were explicit about not being gay. >> I was totally in the dark with the movies. >> Yes. >> He's he's adjusted from Dingbat to normie. >> That's what he was basically saying. It was it was non-denominational, I suppose. Well, I don't know why suddenly and everyone's suddenly um focusing on again. It's weird >> because he isn't. End of discussion. >> Disney doesn't get to dictate what's canon in Star Wars. >> I mean, they do. They do. Regrettably, >> I never get it when people say this cuz the whole reason we're angry at them is that they do. If they didn't, then we wouldn't care. If if it was just another company putting out random [ __ ] it wouldn't matter. They have control of the IP. That's why it sucks. Like I don't want them to have the cannon control, but they do in the official sense. That's why we're mad at their decisions. That's why you're mad at their decisions, good sir. That's why you keep saying they should be decanonized because they're currently cannon. Unfortunately, >> ownership does not equal authority. >> Well, what does then? >> I mean, in legal terms, it does. >> This is a complicated question. Uh, what do you value? >> Um, whiskey cardinal ward. H. Well, I guess I'll end on that [ __ ] note because now he just moves on. >> He just freezes here. It's so funny, >> man. This [ __ ] Oh [ __ ] my video froze. God damn it. >> He's like going to the cruise. God damn it. >> Well, anyway, uh hold on. I don't know when the hell like this [ __ ] >> Don't Don't cut this out in the editing. Leave it in. technical problems at the end of my video. >> Just end the video. >> I just say bye. >> Froze. But anyway, uh basically [ __ ] >> Yep. Uhhuh. Okay. Yeah. >> [ __ ] like this is why I just do not follow this [ __ ] at all anymore. >> I like the Oh. Oh, there it is. It's back now. Okay, sweet. >> Back now. Okay, sweet. >> No, like [ __ ] hell. The mother the [ __ ] dumb ass [ __ ] like this. >> He's trying to get his rhythm back. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And him saying skeleton crew isn't garbage is WHY I JUST [ __ ] FELL OUT OF [ __ ] favor with this guy. Drinker, IF YOU SEE THIS, I LEGIT REGRET BEING A [ __ ] FAN OF YOURS. >> OH, and ironically, I do see it now. I'm so sad. >> It's a tragedy really. Um >> I mean this is the kind of dynamic individual that I want within my fan base clearly. >> Well and lucky for me he has >> such great things together backseater. >> I I was basing I was right 100%. So I assume I've still got him as a fan unlike you. So nice. >> Well, you've been on quite the roller coaster with him in the course of this little segment. You know, he's hated you. He's like, "Yes, Müller." >> You're kind of chill with him by the end. >> I don't know if he's a fan where it's like we all we all have like we're all in the same Animal Crossing village and we're all fighting over the affection of one of the villagers we really really like to be their best friend. So, they send them all the letters. >> Yes. I don't know if he's a fan of even Fringy though. Probably not. >> I mean, who is? I mean, after that stunt he pulled doesn't need to be >> after the event. THANK GOD I DIDN'T DONATE ANY MONEY to you. >> [ __ ] >> Oh my god. >> Drinker. I mean >> I mean listen based on his background. I think maybe he needs all the cash he can get his hands on. >> Well, I was It's funny you mentioned that. I was literally about to point out the PlayStation in the background and I'm like oh it's it this all makes sense. Actually >> are not WANTED IN THE STAR WARS FANDOM ANYMORE. OH, get out drinker. Get out. >> You're excommunic. >> Well, apparently >> segments of the Star Wars fandom don't want the other large segments in the Star Wars fandom, though. >> Stay out, >> you know. >> Oh. >> Oh my god. >> His microphone straight up quit on him there. Does he know that like normies as he would put it are the whole reason that Star Wars is where it's at though? Like you you need that whole audience to keep it alive. >> I think this happens with a lot of people who are really really deep into fandoms, they kind of lose touch on the idea that most people just most people don't read comic books. Most people don't read the extended books of things. That's just that's just a a minority of people. If you do that, you are you're the exception to the norm. Most people aren't like you. And it's fine, but you just have to understand that's not the way that people approach these, you know, franchises as they're not super fans of it. >> Well, and I think it's particularly interesting in this case, right? Because the question that we were asked to engage with here doesn't really require any knowledge of the EU uh and the books and so on. It was a question purely about the movies um and what we would do in that regard. And I probably could understand his anger more if like I was in this hugely influential position within the Star Wars community somehow. But I knew almost nothing about it and I was making like insane um you know claims and stuff about the the cannon of the various characters and getting it all wrong because I just didn't know anything about it. like, okay, fair enough. That's that's the grounds for being annoyed. But this didn't require anything like that. This was literally just a hypothetical about the films. >> He didn't even talk about it for that long. Didn't, you know, it infuriated him. >> When he referred to the EU, it was in the Luke can't be gay because didn't you ever read the book? So Mara Jade, who Luke eventually marries in the EU, is introduced in the the Thrawn trilogy of books. And those sort of can't be canon if the prequels exist because the way clones work in those books is substantially different. Like it's not they're not a bunch of clones of a bounty hunter. They were specifically clones of Jedi who have like an extra U thrown into their name. >> Well, that's just one case. I mean, the CL So you could actually I just finished rereading all of those. It's actually it fits reasonably well. You can change some nouns for the most part. you'd have to change a few other details, but like it doesn't it's not so cannonbreaking, but it is it is kind of interesting cuz um like Timothy's arm writes like there's a part of the backstory called the outbound flight which uh he then went on to write a book about but in the intervening time the prequels came out and so the entire notion of it the characters involved what has to happen fundamentally is shifted because George Lucas decided he was going to make three more movies and so like it would be interesting to see the version of that story you would have part if it had come out before the prequels rather than after them. But it it's like the films dictate this stuff. They always have precisely because as been mentioned uh most fans do not engage with expanded universe materials. They don't read tai novels. They don't read tying comics that they understand the movies. They watch the movies. That's where most of your audience is. So you have to bend to their will if you're writing anything around that. >> Yeah. At least of all. >> Oh god. >> Oh jeez. >> Where is this going? >> You filthy. He's like, "Oh jeez, don't say it. Don't say the word." >> BE [ __ ] CASUAL. >> Not that. I wish he would have just called you a slur. >> Yeah. I mean, casual. Damn. >> Instead of a filthy >> traitor. An enemy is a traitor. >> You betrayed the fandom by answering a super chat. You have done that yourself. >> My god, >> you quizzling. >> Whoa. >> Now collaborate with >> I don't I don't know what that means. >> That's like a for intelligence for stupid people. Yeah, he's got him now. >> Ding bat. >> Piss off. Does he know that he can just press the X button in the top right hand corner of his computer screen and then drinker will go away? >> That's the cowardly way to do it. You got to call your enemies a quiz. >> Following anymore, so I don't even know where he got this from. >> Dude, his mom must have had so much fun raising him. >> He's downstairs quivering right now. >> I hope he's calmed. I hope he's calmed down by the time he gets downstairs. >> Yeah. Like what does a guy like this do after he's recorded something like this? >> So you guys are >> the mac and cheese will calm him down. >> You guys are saying maybe you speculated on maybe his mother, his her involvement in his life. That's an interesting thing to speculate. I wonder if there's going to be an answer to that question. That's very explicit. >> Who can say? >> Oh my god. Look at him. He's Batman. >> He's winding up for another tirade there. Just let the anger see. >> I don't know. >> He seems like he's got like postnut clarity here. >> He's learned the errors of his ways. >> He's looking at what he ended up hitting. Yeah. >> Am I going to goon today or yell at a drinker video? >> He had a big He signed as though he just won a war like finally it's over. >> Now I can rest. >> Drinker has been taken down. >> [ __ ] Infinity War, dude. Hello. >> The suspense is [ __ ] killing you, right? Like >> what happens next? >> So, if you guys enjoy this video, please >> a thumb up. I love it. Alters is fronting now. >> What was that? >> This guy's amazing. >> Subscribe if you want more videos like this and I'll see you guys next time in the back seat. Take care. >> In the backseat. >> I'm a Netflix. >> Some people like >> I don't want to encounter this man in my back seat. >> [ __ ] bridge. >> The back seat is just a cuck chair of the car. That's like a >> he's going to be like an alligator just poking his head out and you [ __ ] your pants. >> Just an urban legend now. If ever you hear a sound in your back seat, never turn because if you see him there, he will kill you or something. Oh god. >> I think I think Benjamin Franklin coined that uh >> so >> I mean Nuts was probably joking, but the last few comedy specials I watched on Netflix did not make me laugh as hard as I just did that. >> I know >> that video was [ __ ] iconic. But there was a Reddit post uh it was I think it was after we'd covered him last year and my god was I happy to uh see that it was saved. Nothing went wrong with it. Basically he was streaming with some friends. I think John was even there the the famous John >> guy to have friends >> and something happened during it and uh he ended the stream and deleted it soon after. But someone on the Reddit caught this and I I don't know if there's a longer version of this clip cuz I imagine it continues to be extremely funny. >> But this is all we've got. Okay. I present to you what he doesn't want the internet to see. >> Why he said he was gonna pour honey on him. I never knew the origin of why he said that, but yeah. >> All over. >> Oh no. No. >> What? >> His mother has entered the fray and she has pushed the screen. He >> is being bered. He is being bered by his mother live on stream. >> But the genius of this is she pushed the laptop screen down and so he assumes that the stream is now [ __ ] But no, the laptop is better tech than that. And it continues. >> Oh, >> [ __ ] up my stream so much. >> Oh, >> wait, man. I cannot imagine how hard I would have got my ass beat if I said to my mom, "You [ __ ] up my stream." >> You [ __ ] out my stream. >> You did not eat out of the pot. >> You do not eat out of the pot. >> I just transitioned his meal to an acceptable receptacle. He was eating. >> Well, look, he had to get back upstairs and start ranting at drinker videos. Okay. >> Oh, man. >> The whole pot with him. >> You didn't even leave your mother any macaroni and cheese. >> This This is bor like people say like this is staged, right? It's like no, this is real. Listen, a lot of people need to understand that if you take all of the people who are streaming across the internet, across the world, it is a statistical inevitability that a certain percentage of them will be interrupted midstream by their mother >> demanding they not eat out of the cooking utensils cuz that's >> the best thing about that is that she comes in clearly with suspicions. >> So like she's not coming in by chance. She thinks this has happened before. >> Like I mean is pouring yourself a bowl of whatever it was that difficult to do. >> That takes time time away as drinker put out of destroying the drinker. So >> it's okay to eat out of the pot. I guess maybe if you're the only one there, but still don't you feel a little like you know I I I kind of feel like a bit of a barbarian. >> Using the power of subtext, we know that this is likely not the first time it's happened. Yeah. >> Yeah. Cuz when she opened the door, he looked guilty as hell. He knew he'd done something wrong doing. Yeah. He'd been caught. >> This is very well written, I would say. >> You just [ __ ] up my stream. >> You do not eat out of my pot. >> You eating out of mama's pot. >> I love the subtitles. Capitaliz. You do not eat out of my pot. >> First you drink mama's mother's cans, then you eat out of her pot. >> So what? So what? >> You just [ __ ] up my stream. >> Mom. MOM, YOU JUST [ __ ] UP MY WHOLE STREAM. >> You just Mom, shut the [ __ ] up. YOU >> OH MY GOD. Don't go there, sir. >> Holy [ __ ] This is like gerenesis levels of insanity. >> Holy [ __ ] I would be dead. I would have been >> I would have been killed if I ever told my mother to shut the [ __ ] up. You >> just [ __ ] up my stream. Oh, >> she's coughing from having been insulted. That's how that works. >> Having to make it up the stairs. Oh my god. She's >> It does make me wonder as well, how many people was he streaming to? >> These two. It was to Evan the Neil Deal and to John Gets Gaming. >> Yes. Like how many How many live viewers did he have going on there? >> So So they're silent here. They're They're both just being completely silent now. >> Listen to this. >> I wouldn't say a [ __ ] word. >> Let cook. Yeah. Okay. You don't get out of my I don't care. I don't [ __ ] care. You don't. >> And that that's all we got, I'm afraid. >> Oh my goodness. >> To have been a fly. >> Um, no. This explains a lot. >> So, I didn't Whoops. >> So, this is something that, uh, people had found and shared on the subreddit as well. So, I guess he fights, funnily enough, Anthony Guglia, he's having a fight with him. >> Oh my god. And uh someone says, "Anthony is also against child exploitation. Does that mean you're for it?" And Backsea says, "Peppends on which kids it is." >> Holy holy [ __ ] base alert. >> And then Ant says, "You do you just admit you're okay with CP just now?" And uh the back seat says it's messed up here, but it says, "I [ __ ] hate kids. Why should I care if they get raped?" >> Oh my god. >> This is this is unfathomable. >> Yeah. Um, he says, for example, >> the kid who played Leia said, >> "Oh my god, >> yeah, [ __ ] this guy." >> Yeah. >> Hope his mom beats his ass. And he says she's not going to cuz I'm a wrestler. Plus, she has a head injury from his softball days that if I exploit it, I could kill her. >> That if exploited could kill her. >> So, he's considered it then. Well, I like how he he wouldn't just be he wasn't comfortable enough saying, "Yeah, I'm just strong enough to kill an old woman." He's like, "No, she has a particular weakness on her skull and I I if I exploit it just correctly, I would be able to kill an old lady." >> He's already got the plan sorted out if she interrupts another stream. I guess >> he's like Batman. >> I have a plan to kill all of my parents if they turn evil. >> I mean, >> why can't people just be normally [ __ ] Why do they always have to end up being evily [ __ ] So, you got I kind of feel bad for you, not going to lie. You have very little in life. You've made fun of rightfully so. You live with your mom who you fight. You're too poor to afford to leave. Your friends aren't real friends as they made fun of you behind your back. You've lost at life, and that's honestly sad. You could be so much more, but you refuse. You'd rather hurt people than improve. And he said, "The world is filled with bad people. What's wrong with one more?" >> That Oh my god. >> Oh, the edge. >> The Star Wars hatred has consumed him. >> Yes. >> Completely. the irony of him wanting to keep the film in which Darth Vader redeems himself. >> So, >> and then on theme of this uh just I I this tweet everyone's quite aware of where they said I just need critical drinker to lose. There was another one I saw that I just wanted to read because it it was amazing regarding how bad drinker is as a human being. The critical drinker and variations of his types are not real people. They don't have a single real thought. They are parasites, cancer inside society. All they do is spread hate and lie. These people are the lowest lows. We have to start acknowledging these people as sickness. >> This is um this is all taken an incredibly dark turn. >> I think I need to hire like private security at this point. >> Yeah, I think it's better. >> We usually say we have fun here. We have to switch it to we had fun here. >> Yeah. If I were to rewatch that video with the context that this guy has seriously considered killing his or at least attacking wrestling with his mother who has brain damage like it has a little bit of a different vibe now. >> Yeah. >> You got um when we tell you that the critical drinker and his fan base are nothing more than easily played rubes. We are nothing who are nothing more than single cellled amoeba. Why did you use that twice? Believe us now. >> Who do you think said this? >> Oh no. >> Get ready. Get ready, >> Matt. Java, >> dude, you you guys have all got to like calm down, okay? You got to you got to calm down. >> You need to chill out. >> You need to stop being crazy, okay? >> He's Matt Java. He's the king of a lack of integrity. What are you doing? Feel like, uh, look, he easily played Rubes. Like, you tried to play everyone. >> More than single steel ammo. Chill all of you. Oh my god. >> Yeah. >> It's fantastic looking at people like this. I I seem to enrage them just by existing. >> Yep. >> Well, it was pretty rude of you to do that. Okay. >> I'm sorry. >> Yeah. Could you stop? >> But being a hatefilled bigot as you are, have you ever found yourself thinking of your opponents? You know what? These people are subhuman scum that should be wiped from the face of the planet. And have you repeatedly said this publicly on the internet while claiming to be a good person? >> The the ironic thing for me is that I don't think about them at all. >> No. >> And that's the best way. And I think that is more than anything what makes them so angry. >> Well, I just didn't know that was capitalized. >> Clearly, you miss out, dude. >> That video was funny. It it is crazy that you could be like screaming at the top of your lungs about like how much you value Star Wars while seemingly not only absorbing nothing from it, but like almost deciding that you want to be like the antithesis of uh of uh you know something like Luke Skywalker and being like, "Yeah, well, [ __ ] whatever." So, dude, >> well, we don't we don't actually know what he likes about Star Wars. Maybe his favorite thing is the Emperor, and maybe he is in favor of racist genocide. I don't know. Yeah, he cries at the end when he dies. Like, oh man, the good guy's lost. >> God damn. >> Yeah, >> I'd be very proud to be passionately hated by this guy. >> I feel like >> judge me by my enemies, as the great philosopher of our time once said. >> Well, >> Jabo, what is he doing? >> A door dash. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Well, I we mean most of the I mean you'd hope that would be like a humbling and and interesting experience where he gets to, you know, meet people and >> I mean like at least that's like a real thing, right? It's like a real service offering his perspective on anything. >> Well, it's genuinely impressive that he like even has a presence online at this point. Like >> he won't leave. >> He'll never give up. >> Okay. Clearly, you're never ever going to have any success on YouTube. like your every aspect of your reputation online is burned beyond salvation forever. >> Why not just quit? Like get a regular job. All of that stuff can just fade into obscurity and it won't matter. But like why why still cling in there? What are you accomplishing? >> I I think it's like a it's parts it's equal parts delusion and hubris. Um if I just keep going in, I'll get my break. It doesn't matter if I've shrunk. Um, I mean, he doesn't see himself being able to ever step away, but some people are like that. They'll never be able to walk away. YouTube and youtubing and being an internet personality is like the apex, you know, of aspirations. There's never you can't just leave it and do something else. Like, it's not just a job like anything else that you could leave and move from and try out or do part-time. It's if I've made it there, I can't ever stop. Um, you know, I've I've made the top. I could never fall from that. But I think it's just he's he's very just prideful, weirdly um in something, I guess. But I guess he would see it as a defeat if he ever walked away from it. >> A lack of other human connection to like he might not just have a lot of friends he can talk to and >> Oh, okay. Yeah, fair enough. >> He's got a son. >> That's probably a good place to start then. >> Oh, no. >> Ann has offspring. He is bred. He has spawned creatures. >> Imagine the horror of knowing that your dad is Matt Jarbo. >> Yeah. >> There's going to be a time where Well, it's like kind of like the Destiny thing, right? There's going to be a point where your kid gets like old enough to discover all of the things that your, you know, father or your mother have done on the internet that's just out there public for everyone to see. And for a lot of a lot of people, it's not going to be an issue because their presence on the internet is, you know, very professional. But for a lot of people, if they work in commentary or if they're a streamer or if they give political this or that, then I mean people are your kid's going to find out about all that stuff. Matt Jarbo, you know, little the little Jarblet, he's going to grow up and he's going to see all the things that people make fun of his dad for, all the reason why the internet really hates him, the lal that he's become. And I hope that he processes that healthfully because I it's hard for me to imagine being in that situation myself. But I guess I'm at the age where that's not really well as a lot of us are here. You know, we you know with the internet and how old it is. Our parents weren't like regular commentary presences on the internet. Like it's starting to become a thing that's more regular now. So I will leave it to the newer generations to deal with that um that that can of worms. Best of luck, young Jarbo. >> You will need it. >> And on that wonderful note, we will say farewell to drinker. I love to drag you in here and just have people swing at you. >> Now I've just been blackpilled on like my entire online existence. >> You coming like, "Hey, congratulations everybody. Oh, we're doing a video about how I'm awful." Yeah, sure. Okay. >> Standard procedure. No. Well, anyway, it's been it's been well real. Um, but you guys enjoy the rest of your stream and congratulations on this epic milestone. It is truly inspiring. One day maybe open bar will reach this level as well. But anyway, I will leave now. You guys carry on with your stream and have fun. >> We'll do. Thank you, buddy. And I'll catch you around. >> Goodbye. >> Byebye. He's excommunicadoed from the EAP anniversary. >> We're gonna have to lose Mark as well. Uh we'll likely have you back. We're just trying to get everybody in. We got two people in waiting. Who knows who they could be. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's been fun despite having to listen to the backseat. But uh yeah, um happy happy anniversary. Happy 400. And uh yeah, possibly see you guys later. >> Oh yeah. >> Later. >> Thanks, dude. >> Bye. And then there were eight, but there's going to be more because the night never truly How far are we? Four and a half hours. How you feeling everybody? How's >> feeling? All right. Yeah. Good. >> Good. >> I was feeling better before I realized we've been covering somebody who thinks that rape and murder the children is a good thing to do. >> I don't buy that. He actually believes that he's >> I think he's he's just being edgy stuff on the internet. >> He's so [ __ ] rude >> and mean and he will like polite thing to say. >> I just feel sorry for his mom. >> Yeah. >> He puts she puts up with it. I guess she really there's that love regardless. >> She bought the food. She probably bought his [ __ ] computer. Like >> probably right. >> Yeah. >> You told me you were going to be a famous streamer. God, >> you can pay me pay me rent. >> Look who it is. M and Nicholas the ghost. >> Hello. >> The ghost. >> Well, well, well. >> Dude, that was the most internet [ __ ] I've ever seen before. You get a funny clip where a mother comes in and they get into like argument and then at the end of it, the guy has like crazy takes on molesting children. That's like the most internet [ __ ] I've ever seen. >> Hey, if get your bingo cards, everybody, we're going to hit it all tonight. your internet streamer bingo cards. >> Well, how you guys doing? What's uh what's happening in the world of whatever you guys get up to. I'm not going to make any statements about it. >> I'm just editing. >> Just sitting here editing and uh thank you. Actually, this is a nice break from that cuz boy, I hate audio editing so much. >> Don't thank me yet. >> Yeah, it's gaming. >> U because I'm I'm looking around. I'm like, hm, so many options. So many torturous options. You're not even Oh. >> Oh, good. >> You do always bring me the worst of the worst. So, >> you say this is we cover such wonderful things when you're not here. Like, we're all Oh, >> you know, >> you didn't you didn't even get to submit to Mark Brown, right? Even Well, you >> I have absolutely I have timing today. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> The timing is based on timing broke my brain for a [ __ ] year. We got given 10 of his stuff in a row. He He blasted them out. All the lessons. We're still here, though, so I guess it wasn't that bad. >> Yeah, I'm ready to make a really cool video game with all that I've learned. >> I don't know about you. >> Also, hey, congratulations on eight years. >> A >> that's incredible, right? >> Thanks. Thanks so much. You know, you you've been a part of that. I don't even remember what year we we met you, but it was through [ __ ] on your video and then in UK 41. >> Oh. Hey, >> that's pretty. So that's that is year one. >> Year one. Yeah. Yeah. >> A long time ago >> and we're still here. Um All right. Well, I think judging from the current panel we have, I'm I'm really tempted by a video I found or was sent to. The title is, "You're wrong. Video games are not art." >> Oh, good. Oh, >> we got we got opinions, everybody. We got opinions. >> This is one of them. Who? >> Holy [ __ ] He's got opinions. >> Wait, >> no. See, in my head, I'm thinking like a cowboy that's just like, "Oh my god, we're up for an adventure." But no, you're you're right. There are there are other references to be made there. >> Is his channeling really peeb? Is that what he chose? He is. >> That's Wait a minute. But that's that's the name of the uh that's the name of the rabbit in How to Be Cool. >> Oh, >> has anybody seen that? God, nobody's seen that. It's Pimations. It's funny that that's the name of the rabbit. There's a rabbit that's trying to be cool and her name is Peeb. >> What film festival was that shown in? I only watch good movies. >> You know what? Just in case. >> I I enjoy every single time you say like I don't want to watch the French indie film. It's a Um, but yes, uh, I want to be clear as well. People are going to ask this. He assures people in his profile he is not AI. His voice simply sounds like that. >> That is unfortunate. That's an unfortunate thing to feel like you have to say. I don't know. Yeah, I guess we'll see. >> I get that comment on literally every video. Every single video. >> People think you sound like AI. >> Every single video. Every single video. >> How do we know you're not AI right now then? Yeah. You know, I I I I >> say the one word that AI will not say. >> Interesting. >> You couldn't do it. You couldn't do it. >> Interesting. >> We got to find out about this one on the You're wrong. Video games are not. That's just daring, huh? >> Jeez. >> All right, then. Sounds like everyone's ready. Is everyone in? Has everyone got the link? Is everybody all good? >> I think so. >> I'm all in. >> Oh my god. >> Here we go. I have a question for you, >> man. Let me ask you something. Is this art this? And what about this? >> I'm almost starting to believe the propaganda. >> Uh, yes. Unfortunately, >> those are those are all >> Yes. >> I'll just bite the bullet. The banana tape to the wall is art. It's just shitty. >> Yep. >> Yeah. That's been our take for a long time. Just It's just [ __ ] It's okay to say >> okay to just say that it's bad. It's bad art. >> Yeah. You're gonna get into a lot of this when we cover this video, but of course it's like if if [ __ ] art should just not be art, then it's like so everything made by children is pretty much out. I think that's [ __ ] >> Yeah, it's not all children's opinions on children >> because there are sort of two senses of the word art that get conflated. There's art as a literal descriptor and then art as like this attempt to privilege something as like a special form of expression >> like to describe something. >> Kind of like this is cinema, right? Yeah, >> cinema, you know those movies, they're all cinema. >> I mean, for a while I've taken the position that I mean, if we're getting into art and what is art, I take a very very if we're getting to a super technical definition, it is a very very massive umbrella that includes a very wide variety of things uh technically, but I'm fine saying that. Is sweeping the floor art? Yeah, you know, it's an act of human expression. Sort of. You know, it is technically art, but in almost every situation ever pop up. >> Yeah. So, so it's dance. You know, this is this is the problem >> is that unfortunately you have to cast a wide net because if you don't, >> then you're going to just run into problems. You're going to constantly run into things that you will say that's not art when it kind of obviously is or someone will certainly try to argue that it is. that that is the exact reason art has resisted being definable at all because there is you can't really come up with a definition that includes everything you want and excludes everything you don't want which is why the search of moved towards like what what does the quality of being artistic mean like that is where the question has sort of developed >> yeah so but hey maybe he's going to say yes it is and he's going in a different direction >> one of these things is not like the other. What if I told you that almost every single issue plaguing video games today is the result of one single point of insecurity? I think the insistence that video games are art and must be recognized as such is what is holding the entire medium back. >> What is this painting star night? >> Is it famous? Okay. So, obviously he's going to make the argument like I can already tell, right, that the argument is going to be that entertainment is immediately not artistic, right? Like if you're taking entertainment from something, uh you can't possibly view it as an artistic merit. And by trying to view it artistically, we're going to uh um remove the entertainment part, right? Like that's the only possible I disagree with it entirely, but it's the only possible outcome here unless he's about to say something really. >> I wonder what point is. >> Then again, I wonder what point he's about to This is a funny clip by the way. Um like the fact that this has prompted a pretty harsh reaction cuz this guy is either pretending or doesn't know Star Night asking like is this famous? That's [ __ ] funny. That is funny. >> Made funnier by the serious getting such a negative response out of this other lady. >> It's Van Go. You're kidding. >> Van Van Go. >> We like a little trolling. We like a little trouble. >> That's right. That's good stuff. Anyway, let's take the postmodernist position and argue that any form of expression should be classified as art. But that isn't exactly useful to anybody. That's twisting classifications in a way that makes you feel better about how you spend your free time. But that's part of the problem. Realist. >> No. I'm hearing postmodern already. I was like, "Oh, no. >> You don't know what that means, friend. I'm sorry. Just like just don't use the term." >> Postmodern means something that's vaguely been spoken about in the last 20 years. Even though I think postmodern goes all the way back to like the 40s, doesn't it? Or even earlier. Honestly, the people we would describe as postmodernists did not self-describe as postmodernists. That's like a post hawk classification that has been put onto them to group a bunch of different people with very different sort of fields of study and ideas. It's not something you can just sort of slap on easily like that. >> Yeah. ically when people colloquially refer to art they are referring to something created through the conscious skillful usage of techniques and imagination to communicate ideas and evoke an emotional response. >> So if that is what if that is your definition then games have to fall under that category. >> Exactly. Even by that colloquial definition games are obviously art. But we're not talking colloquially here. This is a YouTube video essay thingy that's specifically talking about the nature of what is and isn't art. We're past the colloquial. We're in the realm of the technical. >> Yep. >> Critical words there are conscious and skillful. For me to consider something to be art, all of these separate art forms that make up the whole need to meet that skillful standard. That means >> further up where where do we draw that line for what is skillful? Cuz let's be real, we're not all going to have the same line for what appears to be skillful. You might have a different one depending on how skilled you are in that particular pursuit. Someone can look at something that's been drawn and go, "Wow, that's amazing." But then somebody who's actually like very very very good at art might go, "Hm, yeah, it's not that great." Like they will notice all of the problems. Whose opinion is more valuable? And if you're going to defer to like, "Well, it's the people who are in that field." It's like, do you want to surrender that power? I mean, if you want to, like, you can do that. I guess >> it's a determination that you think you can make, but you can't make at least not consistently. You don't actually know how much skill went into something. You don't actually know if you don't even know if a conscious agent made it. >> That's the hardest there is. You have no idea how hard someone worked on something OR HOW YOU YOU MAY NOT EVEN KNOW HOW DIFFICULT it is because of how little you know about that particular discipline. >> Yeah. There's a lot of things that take an insane amount of skill that ultimately produce art that is annoying, obnoxious, frustrating, niche, um, difficult to understand, and I don't think that you're ready on a whim to just say, "Yep, technically they take a lot of skill to do. So I those are all art, especially if you don't consider >> out of curiosity, would my Sonic drawing count to him as art, or would it be like there's no skill there?" >> Absolutely. That wouldn't count, but it counts to him. >> That's not fair. It doesn't have a skill art. >> That's very drawing. >> Oh man. >> Yeah, you're too much of an art noob to be considered. >> Cringe and saying like it's only art if it's good. Like nobody agrees with that. Come on. >> Yeah, that has so many holes because like in the case of the Sonic drawing, you made a mistake because you I were you drinking? I can't remember. But right at the end when you filled it in the wrong color, that was unintentional. >> So that was what makes it work. That's what that's my finishing touch. >> But does that mean that according to this guy, if you had like a fantastic artist who was drunk and then they made a mistake, what they've created is no longer art. >> I guess maybe >> it would mean they'd have to be executed. Do you have ever drawn anything or been in any kind painting or whatever? You know that sometimes like a mishap or a mistake happens and it gives you an idea or it like you notice it has accidentally how does that count in the the intentional you know what what does that mean exactly? >> Cuz I don't think intentional is a part of it personally but that's where is even if like you can't know what was intentional or what wasn't. That's information that just isn't available to you. And even >> there's a real subconscious relevant as you're doing things that influences the kinds of stuff that you make if they're even if they're not specific things you're thinking of actively. >> Yeah. Like moving towards intent is like if I was to try and like I don't know analyze one of Mhler's videos, I would have to include within that analysis a full psychoanalysis of Mhler. That's the only way you could move in the direction of intent. Yeah, he's pretty [ __ ] up. But >> the error the error there is that if video games aren't art, no [ __ ] way this guy thinks the [ __ ] videos on YouTube at all is like I want to [ __ ] review eraser head. Okay, time to go and psycho analyze. >> It only counts as art as long as it's played on a projector screen in a cinema. Once you once it's on YouTube specifically, then it ceases to be art. Now, >> yeah. The thing is is I think I could accept that intentional is a part of art. I think I could accept that. But it becomes reduced to the point where it's like, yeah, I don't necessarily agree that if you accidentally knocked some paint over onto something and it turned into a painting, that you could say that you created art, even if like the end product was, were you intentionally creating art? I I think I could accept that but it becomes such a low barrier that the very process of like choosing to do anything becomes art. Such a >> that's where the discussion actually is where he's at isn't even close. Like this is so categorically wrong. I think that's worth more discussion to have Morati like that's for sure that's but we're not if we're at video games or not art we are not even approaching the question of like whether or not you drop a camera and it takes a snapshot and it's like the most beautiful picture that's ever been taken as art, you know, because of the lack of intent. We're not even close to getting that. >> We don't need to talk about it right now. That's that's almost the point. It's like he's not even close. >> That's a separate discussion. That's a really deep sort of basil almost thing. I kind of think of mindless at the beginning >> like so you know >> tree of art forms you go it becomes exponentially more difficult. The rough part for video games is that they are made up of pretty much every single artistic medium. The reason that paintings >> Yeah. It's kind of makes it an almost impossible position. Well, he's buying all the meds that whereas you're saying as long as we can agree that at least one of the formats is like completed in an artistic way that means that it's art. He's saying no, all of them must be in order for it to reach the degree of like considered art as a whole. If any of them fail every input, every >> So, for example, if everything were amazing, but there was like a painting in the background that was AI or something, you'd be like, well, then the game isn't art anymore. So why why would that even be relevant to this conversation? >> I'm not actually sure. He's going to have to explain this one. >> Okay. >> That paint paintings, sculptures, and the written word lend themselves so readily to being considered art is because of their inherent limitation. A novel >> No, it's cuz they're old. You're so [ __ ] right. >> It's like technology around for a long time. Paintings have been around for a long time. Video games are pretty new, so they're not art. >> Yeah. If they could have done them before, they they would have. Technology does allow for new forms of art to emerge just based off of the allowances technology gives to people. >> I don't I always find this conversation reductive cuz art's like a form of expression, but we now have to h like put like a hyper rigid definition to it to like then push things out that we don't like as art. It just seems like you don't >> This is actually a Scooby-Doo situation. >> They don't like art. >> It's the intellectual discussion on the definition of art. Pull off the mask is like I hated the the that piece of art. You're like, "Yeah, I know what that was." >> You can just say you you thought it was [ __ ] That's all you need. You don't need to go this far. A novel is evaluated only according to the merit of the words on the page. >> That is not even true. That is not even true. That's okay. >> I need I need that again. >> You know why they say don't judge a book by its cover? Because you absolutely do. That is >> Some would say that's what the cover is for, but I I that's I don't know. >> A film is comprised of multiple different mediums. The written word, photography, music, etc. All of that in addition to its own native quirks as a medium, the timing and complexities of continuity that come with editing film. For a film to be considered art, all of those aspects need to reach the same standard. >> See, it is. But that's not true. >> That's just simply not true. >> Yeah. >> What standard? >> I love how we've just asserted that this is the case. No, I've never heard this before as a POV like that there are several art forms involved in a singular like big creation and that they all must reach a high standard or in this case whatever his standard is for art for the whole to be considered art. It's like what >> I see I see what you meant before there. Okay, that is a yeah that is a peculiar argument. I guess you could argue that uh each of the art forms need to reach a certain level of standard like you know >> I wouldn't even because I I don't we we do not we cannot be privileging the term art to a particular qualitative standard I don't think because that's not that doesn't capture the artistic quality >> but again what he's saying requires that we understand what went on behind the scenes in the creation of of of the of the game or the film or whatever. So, >> we've talked about this so many times with big slot movies like I'll just take Multiverse of Madness. Um, me and Frankie watched the behind the scenes when I was making the video and it's so sad watching the people do the special effects like the practical stuff with the stunts and the wiring and all the choreography and because they explain in great detail all the safety and prep that they do and then it's like they either get cut to death in editing or they're slopped over with CG in post or you don't even see it. It's just like well that's sad. And then of course you've got the critical point of failure being the writer who in the case of multiverse of madness is profoundly dull. >> Point being >> so negated in that sense >> loads of immense artistry happening in these movies in all different kinds of places. I always get annoyed with the the um the special effects for like makeup and costumes. It's like Jesus Christ the amount of work. >> All of the aliens that they came up with all that hard work. >> Yeah. Jesus. The idea that all of that gets considered not art because someone in the writing room fails. >> I don't think that makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Possible for a movie to be excellent, memorable, a classic, but still not to be considered art. Sometimes the screen >> it doesn't have to be excellent or a classic to be art. >> Well, he's going to >> he's got some curve balls in here. play just doesn't match the quality of the cinematography or it's held back by an out ofplay score or it dies in the editing room once the studios get their hands on it. >> Then it's just worse art. >> Yeah, he's describing it. >> No, if it fails in any one aspect, it is no longer art. >> Yeah, he's where the word good belongs. That's the fundamental thing he's doing. He's using art where he means good. That's it. >> Yeah. He's he's called a runner. swapped from art as like the form of expression to art as a particular privileging of quality works the same way literature is used for um books or for like cinema for films. >> Cinema Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Sorry, I forgot he was called Michael Morbius. That's [ __ ] hilarious. >> No, wait, that's his actual name. >> Of course, that's his actual name. >> I don't think MorbiiUs is a superhero name. I think that's Yeah, exactly. that his real his real name is MorbiiUs. I had this is news to me. I had no idea. >> By the logic by the logic of this argument here, the fact that his name is cringe and gay means that nothing he's in can possibly be art. >> True. >> How much skill does it take to be cringe and gay? >> First cut of Bladerunner. If something is not considered art, that isn't a slight against it. >> It is categorically your intention to slight it. you are trying superiority comp by removing art from what they are >> explicitly using it as a slight because you pivoted >> the three examples he gave were like is this art is this art they're things I hate he's trying to devalue things he doesn't like by saying no it's not actually art it's not real art >> your stuff slop garbage dog [ __ ] that's not an insult to you or created actually >> I I'm just describing it objectively >> it's not even me considering it to be lesser it's just that there's a difference >> oh Um, okay. >> Yeah. The the entire internal logic of his argument is that unless everything is equivalently good, >> then it's not art. So determines the definition is if something is worse than it isn't art. The only way it can be art in his definition is if it is less than art. >> In order to be considered art, it has to be of good quality. This is not a comment on whether or not it is lesser. Like um, sounds like it is. >> You'll notice that I use the word film there instead of movies. That's because I think there's a difference and I'm gonna >> Here we go. >> Okay. >> Okay. I'm sorry that you can't watch Citizen Kane because you're simple. >> Get Get your tongs right. Use [ __ ] cinema. Come on. At least >> Kane really terrible example. That [ __ ] holds up. It's like Casablanca. It's like that really holds up as a movie. >> Kane is a modern feeling film given that it's nearly 100 Well, yeah. I guess it's nearly 100 years old. >> Close. Yeah. We use that word as a form of shorthand. Almost every creative medium can be split into a triad. For motion pictures, I consider it to be movies, films, and documentaries. >> Oh, are we are we about to know the same for books? The the distinction between fiction and literature. >> He's just making up definitions. >> How fun of you. >> Idiocracy as a documentary is like a meme. Not It's not actually a documentary. >> It's It's a fiction. It's >> I'm sure I'm sure he knows that he's being cheeky. Yeah, but this was the point about the standards thing. These are so easy to flip or move. >> This is a joke like that. Feels like maybe you don't >> The Odyssey is out of the triangle. >> It's not a film. Surely it's a film drama. >> It's above Surely it's above Dark Knight. It's next to Withering Heights, right? >> But so wait, drama specifically? Not not all films, right? You can't have a film according to his definition that's not a drama. >> Subtitled and sent to someone like who doesn't know that this just happened and like see if they can make sense of it. >> He's going to do it for um cuz he'll do it for books and he'll put literature at the top and then um novel >> and then non-fiction will be on the right hand side. I'm just trying to figure out cuz it's the the literature >> [ __ ] absurd >> novel distinction that gets drawn as well that is incred like that's just that's a it's like what do you mean it's half a documentary? What are you talking about? >> It's presented like found footage which means that it is a documentary. It it moves more on the spectrum towards a documentary even though it's literally not. >> I feel compelled to next level. >> No, you you know what you know what's easier? It's all art. There you go. No, no triangle. I love that. I love that the Odyssey is outside of it. >> That is funny. Like, look, bro. It It's It's It's art, obviously. If anything, that's people's problems with it is that it was too much expression. >> I just can't believe he's using film and drama interchangeably. >> Yeah, >> silly. Yeah, I didn't even You're right. That's >> That is >> because even he felt the need to have to do the like the parenthesis, you But maybe maybe this is the way that cuz he's got Harold and Kumar there down at the bottom. And I assume I assume it's not just because it's lowbrow. I wonder if it is like well it's a comedy. I mean that can't be a film. You know a film can't be a comedy. >> Comedies famously cannot be dramas. >> That's right. >> He will explain the Harold and Kumar part. I remember that >> take themselves seriously in the dramatic sense and make full use of cinematic storytelling techniques. Citizen Kane is a film that skews a bit toward the documentary side because Charles Foster Kane is a sort of amalgam of William Randph Hurst. >> No, that's not why. No, it would be your film. >> Your film skewed towards being a documentary because it is based in part on real people. >> What does something on real people do? >> No, that's you're totally right, Random. What the [ __ ] Yeah, like let's just accept let's accept his stupid [ __ ] triangle. Like, okay, fine. What's that got to do with >> triangle? >> The virgin random engaging with a hypothetical. Have we learned nothing from the stream? >> Hurst and a few of his contemporaries. A documentary like Warner Herszog's Grizzly Men is meant to portray true events in a manner that is true to life. >> No, it doesn't. >> Man is insane. He's wearing glasses because the bears ate his eyes. >> Like like it but that film that it also doesn't do that right like it is Verer Herzog talking about like the meaning of [ __ ] life. That isn't a dramatic retelling of of a man's life. It's like you know him injecting his own personal takes on what what death is, right? Like that is the very definition of not documentary. It's not like >> I get what you mean cuz it's like editorializing >> immediately. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's uh Yeah. So, hence the reason why trying to put it in a nice clean triangle is is just probably a silly idea, especially when these are the three points that you've decided to to to focus. >> I I just realized that this triangle is just going to turn into Ambassador's triangle from Arcane. >> Oh, no. You're right. Yeah. What What were What were her three points? They were. >> Oh no. >> Oh [ __ ] What were they? Get >> vision might and Guile. >> Yeah, >> those are those are the main three that they're supposed to be, but she added like 15 other things. >> Funny. >> Okay. >> Yeah. If >> I just don't understand why the documentary are treated as like obvious outliers in this instance. Like he's so trying to make this into like a literature thing probably. Yeah. Like there's fiction and there's nonfiction. >> Like but this does not make sense to to the medium of film. It does not apply. >> Well, it's just weird because again, if if film is the overarching medium and then you make film one of the three points on your triangle, isn't that slightly stupid? Doesn't that just make things look very confusing? Needlessly >> form the viewer. But Herszog's narrative style still means that it skews a bit toward the film side of the spectrum. Something like You going to see Moriati? There you go. That's so good. >> Go to White Castle is a movie. It is meant to entertain the viewer. All of that. >> Oh, okay. But meant unlike documentaries that are not meant to entertain the viewer, >> was that was that you as well, Wario? The enter. I think it was. >> He clearly hasn't seen the new EDP. >> I was about to say the same thing. God damn it. >> I wonder where that goes into his [ __ ] triangle, dude. And what would he think about like what's what's The Office because of its style that it's shot. I mean, it's like interviews. >> Clearly a documentary, right? Because it's a documentary. >> We know it's not drama. I guess >> we're categorizing based on intent as well. It's kind of interesting, isn't it? Because like, oh, Citizen Kane, he intended to tell a story that was semi-realistic or whatever the [ __ ] you know. What if he was intending solely to entertain? Oh, no. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> It's almost as if you can't know the intentions and they don't matter. What does Edension define your genre? >> Let's what what does entertain mean? Like really, what does that mean? When you watch a movie that is very dramatic and it elicits sadness out of you, are you not entertained? It depend. I don't know. What does that mean? >> That's right. Um, >> you said that in Braveheart. >> You know, >> a lot of people Yes, that's right. A lot of people could come out of a film like I don't know the thing and say describe themselves as having had a good time which is like relatively synonymous with having been entertained >> I think. >> So like what are we doing? >> But you were scared. That's not like a strictly positive feeling. It's like yeah that makes me feel bad instead of be entertained like the [ __ ] Jimmy Seville documentary. It's like that was horrifying to watch. >> On the western front, >> but again like the guy he he's his definition here is requiring insight into the person who made it. Because if whoever wrote and directed Harold and Kumar said, "No, I didn't want to entertain. I wanted to traumatize. >> This is a serious drama." >> Yeah. >> Then what? Well, I guess you just say, "Oh, well, you failed at that, so this is not art." Entertained entertained can be more broadly defined is I think that the broadest you can have it is to be kept interested. It doesn't it's not necessarily a good emotion engaged with the thing interested by the thing. Um surely citizen can meet crashes. Car crashes are clearly entertainment. >> Citizen Kane is entertaining. And so is it about what the person intended or is it about the reaction the audience get from the thing is of course >> but again if if if uh if we're using the definition that platoon was bringing up there that it is to keep you interested the intention wells intended to keep you interested. So his intention with Citizen Kane was to entertain you. Therefore Citizen Kane is a movie not a film. I absolutely believe that he would have said there's like a factor of entertainment or engagement or whatever have you. Like the idea that we're separating on that is so ridiculous to me. Especially just >> it's a reality with all these kinds of things that all of these would be, you know, like documentaries are entertaining. What are we talking about? >> No, >> it's sort of like a good example just throughout this conversation like you see the [ __ ] 4D chess we're having to do to try and like categorize now. >> See how difficult this gets? >> And why what does this even help? >> Yeah. What do we gain? It doesn't. >> The thing is though, right, like you could assume that I'm being reductive when I say car crash, but as soon as I take a picture of it and my name is Andy Warhol, it's art, right? So like the the fact is that his definition, no matter what, is wrong so far. There's just simply no way that you can take anything he said and and it's just clearly wrong. >> And not only is this convoluted, but I want to I want him to elaborate on Odyssey. like that. >> I do want Yeah, I want to know why it's outside of the triangle. He just ran the [ __ ] out of space and just chucked it. He could be to resize it or anything. Like that's my theory. >> Being said, is Harold and Kumar go to White Castle an absolute classic? Of course. Is it art? I don't think so. >> Wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Why? >> For what? >> Wow. It's not It's not art. Wow. >> For what, man? Why? >> Because it primary goal is to entertain. So therefore I don't as decreed by Peeb like >> there is skill and expression in the creation of a comedy and the structure of the story >> arbitrary. >> Why are we taking that away? You defined the art like the category of art as like a high skill level or or reaches a certain standard of a skill being expressed etc. Like why would that is it? Because we speculated earlier like is it because it's a comedy. It's like all he said is because it's primarily meant to entertain. >> Mhm. Is a clown not a skilled worker? >> Yeah. >> The only one of those three that I mentioned that I would consider to be art would be Citizen Kane. Every aspect of it is deliberately >> there is no such thing as a documentary that's art. Like by this definition we're excluding all literally all that is nuts. >> Sorry David Atenburgh. Nothing that you made ever is art. But it was wait but it was in the triangle. He put planet earth in the triangle. >> He put it in the triangle. But the whole point is that only the top of the triangle. >> Only the top of the triangle is in art. >> Anything that's uh the further it skews to the lower two, the the less art it is. >> If you if you cross the threshold at halfway, you're not art anymore. >> The funny genres that aren't drama do not get it in. There's got to be other genres because I guess comedies that's a no-go obviously. Um maybe like suspense could be maybe that's in in maybe it's the gray zone is a is a suspense movie. >> No because you had Blair Witch at the bottom. >> So >> well yeah so something something like Alien Alien Alien is meant to entertain you like primarily it is meant to entertain you. But then you could also describe it using exactly the same words that he's using here to describe Citizen Kane. >> So but by his logic alien is not art because it's meant to entertain. What is he what is he about to say about Citizen Kane for it to qualify? >> Deliberately skillfully crafted to the highest degree. >> Every aspect is highly deliberately and skillfully crafted to the highest degree. Why does that not count for something? Take for example hot fuzz. >> Yep. >> Yeah. or like >> the fact that they've gone out there to get all of this incredible uh photography that they've done all of the research necessary you know and the patience to facilitate that and then yeah getting David Atenburgh to come along and then do some wonderful narration. It's like that how is that not achieving at the highest level of like of things that are undeniably creative disciplines and then going well it's not art cuz it's like non-fiction >> even though even though I I mean surely that means that like all photographs would then be considered not art because they're photographs of things that actually exist in the real world. >> If you want to like blur the lines just a little bit. What about something like Walking with Dinosaurs? cuz that is ostensibly a documentary on [ __ ] that didn't happen because it can't have happened cuz you can't make a documentary about dinosaurs. So like what do we do then? It's essentially moving the artistry needle more in the direction of having to like you know arrange and create narratives because you are building them from scratch. You're not like essentially >> anthropomorphizing onto things that actually did happen. You are creating circumstances now. You're writing story lines in a way that you're not for a real documentary. Something like that. >> Well, I would imagine it would go somewhere similar. It would go in a similar place to Blair Witch on his triangle, which makes no sense cuz why would those two things be in the same place? >> You add more and more things and it just makes less and less sense and you realize more and more there's just nothing to gain from this. I would actually take it even further on Fring's take there, which is, you know, the only art that you can have which is a photograph would then be something like an antel Adams, right, where it's so purposeful and so intentional um and you know, crafted um because otherwise, right, by what he's saying, uh deliberately, skillfully crafted, at what point is porn, uh art by his definition, right? And is it or isn't it isn't even a part of our discussion here? Right. Exactly. At what point? And and this is Man, I hate you, Mer. Why do you do this to me? >> If we I just you there's like a [ __ ] vote for like best memes of the year. One of them is you saying you hate me. >> See how hard that gets. But no, I was just going to say we got a a message in someone saying like they don't want to consider certain things art. for example, uh, Dial of Destiny because they would call it propaganda. I'm just going to say like historically speaking, >> propaganda is pretty tied to art. Like by the will, >> the more effective I was going to say the more effective and skilled the artwork in propaganda is, the more effective the propaganda can be. Like that is, >> you know, I don't I don't I don't see these things as uh disqualifying each other or something. It's just like, >> yeah, >> when the artist makes an amazing caricature about some politician and we all like laugh at it and then you're like, "Ah, but it's propaganda." You're falling for it. It's like, "Well, yeah, but it's still artwork though." >> Well, yeah, like a political cartoon. I mean, you know, Yeah. It's >> political cartoon. Yeah. >> Like, >> what about a documentary on a drama? How many layers do we have to get behind the scenes for for a Yeah, >> for the record, I can I just I'm more comfortable saying Dial Destiny is absolute garbage art. It's like a piece of [ __ ] >> It's art, but it's [ __ ] >> I don't know why that's like a difficult admittance. >> Yeah, just accept. You're not losing anything. It's not like you're conceding a point by saying this bad movie is bad art. >> I think you can make the moral judgment that comes into it as well, which is that if you think it's propaganda and it's propagandizing for something you consider to be evil, you can say it's evil art. >> People entertain that belief. If I was if I made the statement like Hitler is subhuman, right? I don't mean that he's actually a [ __ ] alien. I just mean he's sub aliens. Yeah. [ __ ] >> Whoa. What? >> So you're saying if you met ET in real life, you'd like call him a slur or something? >> Yeah. Yeah. Like >> deserve a [ __ ] glooper, dude. [ __ ] doing this [ __ ] >> Are these all righteous [ __ ] gloopers? This is like a smiling friend's jar. >> You try to clear something up and everyone's like, "Whoa, >> I'm you've gone too far. That's it's just look, I'm I don't I don't agree with this." >> I think it was Platoon who said that that ultimately he thinks so far this is just him substituting these words like skillful and deliberate for bad or good quality. And that absolutely seems to be just what it is. >> Yes. Exactly. and it endeavors to have a profound emotional impact on the viewer. You can break pretty much any creative medium into a triad like this. For literature, I'd split it into something like pulp, novels, and non-fiction. For games, there >> Oh, wow. We didn't even do the c we didn't even do the lit uh um the one. >> I guess if we did film instead of cinema, we're doing novel instead of literature. That would be my guess. >> Yeah, >> but Pope is a physical definition. It's because it was Pope's paper. Yeah, that's that's right. >> Arcade narrative and simulation. >> Arcade narrative and simulation. Holy [ __ ] >> Simuli snob ever. >> Dude, that is that is so profoundly [ __ ] >> Okay, so so Escape from Tarov is simulation. R3 simulation. You have Call of Duty is arcade. Our creators is arcade. And then what was the other one? It was >> narrative. >> Narrative. So, Last of Us and God of >> War. Okay. So, >> I imagine the simulation is the bottom right. Arcade is bottom left and top is narrative. >> That's my guess for the way. >> That's what it would be. Yeah, that's what it >> Do I have this right? What What Peeb is trying to tell us is that video games are not art. They're actually either arcade, narrative, or simulation. And one of those three is art, but the other two are not. >> Narrative. Narrative is >> narrative is the art for sure. >> Why is he making this so complicated? because he's an idiot >> because he had a free weekend. I don't know. >> Arma is so arbitrary. >> I just like almost captured. >> You know, you sort of [ __ ] up if you'd probably put like Dark Souls and Flight Simulator in the same area of the clock. >> Something's a bit wrong. >> Don't show us a gaming triangle. We'll be here forever. >> Obviously, a sim. It attempts to replicate reality. Mario is an arcade game. >> Why would you show that clip? WHY WOULD YOU SHOW THAT CLIP about it? >> Hold on. That's what sim means. replicate reality. >> Does he mean simulating reality reality or replicate a reality? >> I guess simulating reality. >> So, Call of Duty would be a simulation >> cuz suddenly there's a lot of games that just have nowhere to go if Call of >> Duty is definitely reality. >> When you think of Mario, would you say that it would be >> Is that what you think of arcade? >> It's funny that Mario is so very much not associated like Donkey Kong. Sure. But ever since Super Mario Brothers, which was only a couple of years later, it's been exclusively a console game. >> Yeah, >> but it's an arcade like style. It would it would be there on the triangle as arcade even though >> I think by arcade he simply means like gaming game trademark machine there. Then he put an arcade machine. He used that as a visual. So I'm going to point that out. >> Yeah. Even if you say it's arcade, it's it's arcade which relies on narrative and simulates a reality which is the reality of mushroom >> shump. The these three in particular more so the other ones are more like obviously like socially derived categories between you know pulp novel and whatever the other one he used for literature was. Um he's deriving a lot of that from from what people's social expectations of those art forms are. Then in movies you have some bizarre formulation based on techniques that are deployed. And here it's I don't even know how you would define this one. So many arcade games are narrative simulators. So many simulators have narrative and arcade elements in them. They're not even really separable in that sense. >> Well, what if they were? >> Let's see it. >> Well, what if they were? I'd like to see them try. I think well this video is probably not the the I like I said I don't think we get a triangle in the same way we did for the the film one but for games. But the thing is this whole triangle for games isn't even worthwhile, right? Cuz he's saying all of them aren't art. >> Yeah, >> that's true. Yeah. >> None would be none would be in the triangle. >> Then then he's going to have to draw a distinction between the video game triangle and the movie triangle because he's already said that the movie triangle one of those prongs is art. >> See, now you're just making me hate the word triangle. >> Yes. M >> to replicate reality. Mario >> and as we learned from Teletubbies, triangles are gay. >> Correct. >> Is an arcade game. It relies almost exclusively on its mechanics to entertain the player. A game like Halo is somewhere in the middle. It has light simulatory elements with its weaponry and the science fiction aspects of it setting between those two. >> He's being in very inconsistent. So is he trying because you could say the same thing about Mario games that it's a simulation because I mean gravity it's a platform >> simulation with the Mushroom Kingdom >> he's just broken that definition his initial definition of simulation was that it simulates reality and immediately after it's now it simulates a fictional reality which is science fiction in which case yes you can apply that to Mario too because that's a fictional world with its own rules and that's what's being simulated >> cuz like Star Citizen that would be a simulation even though that's simul ates like space travel and things of that nature. But I guess it's about style and presentation a lot of the ways and not like technical accuracy cuz Star Wars games those would be well I guess if it's Star Wars that would be more arcade than like Star Citizen would be or a more like realistic quote unquote you know portrayals of science fiction or the expanse game or something. >> And it has clearly established gameplay mechanics and its narrative story is a core part of its identity. every video game. >> Oh god. >> Shut the >> What are we What are we Oh yeah, here we go. You were right about the triangle. >> Can I just say how enormously There's so much to this. We're going to spend so long looking at this [ __ ] triangle. But putting Mario as an IP on arcade, an IP, not you know the difference between like the first and latest Mario game. >> Mario Kart is it Mario Kart is based on cart racing. That is a real thing that people do. >> I'm just Where does that sit? the incredible breadth of mechanical difference in all Mario games as well as storytelling by the way and it's like no all of them sit on that part you're like okay >> right >> guys if it's pixelated simation or narrative >> oh god could you imagine >> but they're all pixelated really I guess it depends on how analy wants to be >> visibly pixelated >> it's how big the pixels are >> mhm like any >> so >> any gamey game with a story goes along the left to top axis, I guess, is supposed to be the idea. >> Yeah. And any more realistic game with like regular people goes more towards the right. So like Red Dead Redemption cuz it's like normal people and kind of a >> I hate this triangle. >> But that's a really that's a really small niche of games that take up a third of that entire triangle in simulation. But presumably I would I probably say 80% of games are in the arcade section >> because like that's where I would have put something like Rain World if based on what I was thinking you meant by simulation. But now Rainworld just doesn't like go anywhere here. >> I imagine he said arcade like look at >> graphics. We can't even we can't even >> [ __ ] mix tape goes on narrative which by his logic mix is like whether something like Gran Turismo one where does that sit because it's like obviously it's meant to be a racing simulator but there's different kinds of racing simulator and also it's got PlayStation one graphics and I imagine he might go like well it may be trying to be a simulator but the graphics are [ __ ] so it moves more towards the arcade >> categorizing sim as well you know like Um, uh, civilization. Where would that go? >> Yeah, >> that would go into arcade simulation. Arcade simulation near the bottom in the middle. >> Sim. So, so Civ is categorized similar to HalfLife. >> Yeah, it's Yeah. Yeah. You know. Yeah, it is. Yeah. >> I'm guessing Bioshock would just slot right next to on top of Halo. >> Uh, >> I think so. Yeah, it would be to like the top left of Halo probably. Maybe probably right between narrative and arcade I assume would be that middle spot and the middle between narrative and simulation would be um >> s maybe. Yeah. >> But in this case then between arcade and simulation >> going by his triangle rules >> the ones at the top are the art ones right? >> I would guess that yet but that's what I think happened. >> Here's the thing. I would guess so. But who the [ __ ] knows? >> It's just an insult then to be like, "Sorry, Red Dead. I Halo barely scratches at being art." Uh, but HalfLife definitely isn't. Neither is Mario. Neither is Arma 3, apparently. >> And also, we're doing that thing again of like, yeah, [ __ ] mechanics. Those aren't >> right. Yeah, exactly. It has nothing to do with mechanics. >> No expression in mechanics. >> It defines basically what a video game to be. The mechanics are not taken into account on the triangle. Outer Wilds would go like along the lefth hand axis somewhere probably closer to arcade than to narrative. And that's like one of the most artful games out there if we want to buy into this sort of terminology. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, what an incredible narrative, right? And and even then it kind of goes right in the middle because it's got all of the space simulation, too. >> That's true. Yeah. >> You look at something like they put it on top of Halo. >> Yeah. It goes right on top of Halo. Yeah. Uh, and like you look at what remains of Edith Finch, right? And like why is this at the top? Is it just because the subject matter? Because you know that there is death and and sadness that we're talking about. Is that what makes it a narrative piece of art? Right. And and likeh is >> we're pulling some slight of hand here as well because it utilizes simulation sometimes. >> It sure does. And that's sort of the thing about the mechanics part of it, right? Like, is it just the fact that it is a walking simulator that has minimal video game features in it that makes it a narrative versus an arcade? Is the more that you play something uh going to pull it away from narrative? Is the only way to be narrative to literally be a book? Is a visual novel the perfect narrative game? >> If that's his logic, then my god, he's >> Yeah, because he hasn't mechanic at all. Well, because that if that's the case, then that means that he's going to be arguing that the video games with the least game in them are the most art. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, like, >> so far he leads me to believe that because, as we've said, mechanics and actual gameplay are not a part of the triangle on video games, which seems like a massive fundamental oversight if you were even going to go down this line of logic, which I wouldn't I mean do anyway. [ __ ] me. So, this is going really well. >> I think it's great. You know what? More videos like this, please. >> Also, I have like a question like >> we have so many. >> How many questions? >> One of many. >> What uh how does this guy define games? Cuz like in his opinion, do games only qualify as >> like electronic like interactive media based games? Like where the [ __ ] does Sudoku like >> Yeah, but ma jang he'd be like where does ma jang and like checkers and chess where does that fall on his >> cuz it breaks it triangle. >> What the [ __ ] tabletop roll? >> Well no there would be you can come up with one. There'd be like strategy uh like strategy gambling and uh something else and those could be like your old school game triangle. I don't know. You could sit down and think of some [ __ ] old school, then you have bad. >> Dude, imagine categories. >> Imagine Mark Brown went up against this guy. You just be like, uh, >> be a meeting. >> Maybe. I guess in some contexts, yes, perhaps sort of. >> Are video games aren't? >> It depends. >> Fine. Video games are art and then all of a SUDDEN YOU SEE RAGE SHADOW LEGENDS, THE PREMIUM game from >> Yay. Speaking of art, >> somewhere along that spectrum, as with the other mediums, the place where art typically germinates is in this section here in the middle. Again, the key word is >> an art biologist. >> I thought it was at the top. So, it's >> it Yeah, you've changed your triangle. It used to be at the top, but here for games, it's in the middle. >> Unless by middle, he literally means on a like on a horizontal line. >> So, how is that even possible? You said video games are not art, so it should it should occur nowhere. Yeah, >> video games are not art, but also it's a spectrum on a triangle with three points. >> It depends. It always comes back to it depends. >> Skillful. The films that are remembered as impactful artistic works are written as well as a work of literature. >> I don't appreciate this. >> You should know that the amount of remembrance has nothing to do on whether it's art or not. >> Completely divorced from it. >> You know, um like I was mentioning Hot Fuzz or or Tropic Thunder. If someone said like, "Yeah, good popcorn flicks. They're kind of funny. I'm like, "No, they're like some of the best written films ever." And you be like, "No." Oh, come on now. >> They're not some They're not like Citizen Kate. I'm like, "Bro, >> tighter scripts ever." >> They are in a way. And the fact that they're very good films in terms of narratives. >> I almost hate this snooty like dismissal because well, they're comedies or they're supposed to they're just like popcorn flicks or they're enter they're goofy entertainment. >> This is uh this is annoying. are scored as well as sophisticated kind of art. >> Yeah. >> Art has to be sophisticated in some elitist way. >> It has to be cinema and I don't go to movies. I see cinema >> any record >> masterfully utilize their native mediums unique elements. In their case, cinematography and like I said before the pacing video game. >> Okay. But what about the unique the unique parts of video games? >> So So pacing is notique to films. No, >> there is absolutely no pacing is found in >> video discover shortly in Lord of Ring Gollum. Pacing is bad. Pacing is not unique to movies. >> Yeah. >> Being the sort of chimera of art forms. >> Okay. Why is video games the one that gets described as a chimera and not film? >> Film is described how it's positive. >> Film is older. Yes, it is older. Film is older. That's why um in a 100 years when video games have been around for over a hundred years and there's some new thing that we haven't even thought of uh it wouldn't even be entertained that video games are art. It'll be the next thing that people don't understand. >> But how did you say that it's a chimera art for you literally just >> describe the chimera of art forms? >> No, it's it's it's totally right. I mean it doesn't make any sense like films are games have more but films have a lot. There is nothing that a game has that a a like that a book doesn't in a sense like the the big circle of all the things that a video game has like all the things that a book are is in there >> I guess. >> Yeah. You talked about score and visuals, right? So like those are the two things you don't have in a book is score and visuals. Uh you know cinematography. Um so like you have those in games though. So, what is he going to suggest that you have in video games that you don't have in film? Because I think that's a tighter one for his argument than books is everything he just said that is in a film is in a video game. Everything. Pacing. The the thing that he says is so deliberate that changes everything and makes a piece of film art is pacing. So, like pacing's in games too, my guy. >> Yeah. I don't pacing. What is pacing not in? That's storytelling, >> right? Books. It's pacing in comic books. Exactly. Sequential art. Uh there the sequence is important. >> Then to be judged as art themselves would require all of that and more. >> No, it does. Why are you SAYING THIS? >> WHY? WHY MORE? >> Asserted that this is the case. >> He hasn't. Yeah. He hasn't explained why this is his standard either. He just said this is my standard and then video proceeds. I don't remember him ever saying this is why I have excluded these things. This is why I've kept these things in here. It's it all seems so arbitrary for no reason and for no results either. He hasn't mentioned that he's working towards a particular like goal to have maybe the landscape of art be seen a certain way because it produces a certain result for society or anything like that. It's very strange. >> But his problem is he hasn't begun like he hasn't defined his premise. He hasn't got a definition of art. So, how can he possibly aim to say what isn't isn't art if he hasn't yet come up with his own definition. >> He gave the colloquial definition of it, but he seems to disagree with that even though largely I think we all basically do agree. >> You know what a colloquialism is? >> Well, Google then. >> I love that quote so much. Um, I was also going to mention I'm afraid we're going to have to lose our German, our situationally disabled man. >> 09. >> We got a replacement. We got rotations to happen. Okay, >> we're already heading into the dead hours. The the Europeans are signing off. >> Mhm. >> Oh no, less Europeans are numbered. >> I mean, there will be more. I I'll go refresh and I'll I'll join you all back in the morning. >> Oh, yeah. >> Unironically, that's probably true. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> See you, buddy. >> Been fun already. >> I'll be back for more, you bastards. Okay. Goodbye, fun. Bye-bye. >> In the form of skillfully crafted gameplay and interactivity unto itself is a whole different beast. I would wager it is exponentially more difficult to create a work of art in the form of a video game than it is even in that of a motion picture >> because it's interactive. Bro, not to not to Mark Brown you, but it depends. >> Kind of this is a certified it depends moment. Yes, I agree. >> Of course, it depends. And I think what's funny is that I'm sure that he is exclusively thinking about like the craziest, biggest budget, most complex on a I suppose backend types of games. It's like, well, what about what about the old games that were made by like five or 10 people versus, you know, the Odyssey, right, that he was talking about. It's a film that was made, you know, by hundreds, indeed, probably thousands of people, massive budget, you know, like the complexity. It's, you can't look at the complexity simply as just the categories of disciplines that are applied. It's like, yeah, but what about each of those? Like, how how much goes into it? >> I don't know why I brought up The Odyssey. I don't even like that movie. It's just cuz someone who conspicuously put it outside the triangle. >> What if you then take something like a schedule one which was produced by a single person who did all of the art, all of the music, all of the gameplay. You know, he did this intentionally and managed to produce a game that was you know what the largest indie game of of all time now I guess uh from a single a single developer. What >> interesting >> what could is that art then? Because it was one person who did all of these things with the intention of producing art. that art automatically because of that, right? It has a narrative. Uh, it has some simulation. It has some arcadey elements that puts it right in the middle of your stupid [ __ ] triangle, right? Like what what what then? >> How does this apply to stuff that isn't like the stuff that people conventionally think? I don't even know why I'd say because it [ __ ] depends on who you're talking to like about all sorts of like things that exist in the real world like cars, you know, like what how how does how does the triangle work on that one? Is like the top a Porsche 911 and then on the bottom left is like a Honda Civic and then on the on the what would be on the what would be on the [ __ ] bottom right? It would probably be like a piece of farm equipment. It'd be like a tractor. >> Yeah, maybe. Yes. Yes, that's actually that's a good one. Yeah, that's a that's a good way of >> break. That's the thing I want to know is like, can you please tell me I need you to apply your triangle to things that aren't books, films? That's too [ __ ] easy. And it's already gone completely off the rails. What happens when you apply it to other things? Oh, sorry. Also, hi weekend warrior. >> Holy [ __ ] Oh, hello weekend warrior. He is here. He has joined us. >> I was like, what's happening? And I was just >> We're learning about art. >> Yes. >> Oh, >> and now you must learn as about art as well. >> We can just to get your opinion. Uh, video games, not art. Correct. >> Uh, sure. >> Oh, there you go. >> I get it. I guess it depends on the video. >> He said depends. He said he said the thing. >> He said he said it depends. What a [ __ ] >> It's a >> There's a link for you. We're watching a video. >> Okay, >> don't be afraid. >> Video is that video games are not art and he's doing an incredibly good job convincing. >> Yeah, it's all very straightforward. >> He's a very smart man and I think he's very cool. >> We're also >> I did I did a mast's in aesthetics and I have never been more confused about what the definition of art is than I am now. >> Well, this ain't our first rodeo. We've done what, like five episodes on [ __ ] art as a concept or some [ __ ] over the years. It's >> Yeah, like the whole >> It's rough >> form of a video game than it is even in that of a motion picture. >> Video game fans are lining up today to be the first to purchase Close Range, the hotly anticipated video game in which players repeatedly shoot people point blank in the face. Onion News Network Tech Trends reporter Jeff Tate has more. >> Bobby, >> thanks Bobby. Close range is already being hailed. Oh, this is onion >> by critics as the most important game of the year. The first person shooter creates an immersive, richly detailed world where players shoot people in the face. >> I mean, it looks pretty cool. Yeah, I'm just saying. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I'd buy it. >> Good. Uh, it's good stress relief. >> Guns. Reviewers say it brings a new level of depth to gaming. Just like great literature film transports you to different worlds, close range transports you to a world where you fire bullets into an endless stream of faces. For a game to be considered art, it would that is funny. That is funny. >> Have to be just as brilliant as a great film, but with an additional layer of interactivity. That is, >> you know, if we take this seriously, as we clearly didn't, but let's just say we do that. Uh, in order to be considered as great as a great film, that games have to nail it on loads of different uh disciplines throughout the artistic medium. Okay. Do are there any? Are there none? >> Whoa. Is he is he implying that Spider-Man from Insomniac is uh reaching that level because of the fact that it's on screen. >> Second time that Spider-Man has come up >> any that do kind of destroys the title of the video. No. >> Kind of. Yeah. Ruins your whole video. >> We presumed that it would be reached in the same way as well, which is really weird. As if it's like some sort of like linear greatness scale that is achieved by adding more greatness to your thing. And then you have to add more greatness because you have an interactivity jar to fill up now as well. >> The game sucks. Add more greatness. Of course, why didn't we think of that? Fools that we are >> just as skillfully crafted as the rest of it. I cannot name one instance of a game that meets that. >> None. >> I'm just trying to think of like music. >> Cuz if if you were to equate his logic to music, you'd have to say that in order for something to be music, the singing has to be really good, the guitars have to be really good, the drumming has to be really good. And if any one of those is anything other than really good, it's not music. >> If you're in a if you're if you're watching like a concert with a symphony orchestra and one of the people on the obo [ __ ] up a note, it's like art, not art. You ruined it. Not art anymore. >> [ __ ] >> Can we listen to this statement one more time like in full so I can I can properly hear what the [ __ ] he's saying? >> Just like great literature or film transports you to different worlds, close range transports you to a world where you fire bullets into an endless stream of faces. For a game to be considered art, it would have to be just as brilliant as a great film, but with an additional layer of interactivity that is just as skillfully crafted as the rest of it. I cannot name one instance of a game that meets that criteria, though. If it looks great, >> just not one blanket. >> I would say this is uh shades of a of a certain played video games for 30 years kind of. >> Yeah, I was about to say this. I was about to say I was about to say how how did how did we stumble across Doomer's second channel? But um >> one thing too is that if you're >> by by his metric here, you'd have to you would have to compare apples and oranges. You would have to say well is the gameplay as good as the soundtrack? >> How could you possibly like >> how could you do that? What metric could exist? Yeah, you are actually just comparing two completely different things. How could you be consistent? How could you come? >> Even if you could, >> even if you could, his argument seems basically to be that the more complex the creative process for any product, the less likely that thing is to be art generally. In other words, to get art reliably, draw a stick figure, and that will be more art than Spider-Man the video game. because it's getting more and more hard once more layers to like box that out because we've said you have to be like skillful even though we can't ever know that. Sorry. >> Yeah. I don't understand also why does it have to be some sort of arbitrary 10 out of 10 before it it's considered as art. >> Well, he's also more than that is that he's also adding in player intent, >> right? Because it is interactive. the player can't interact with it in such a way that it ruins the artistic nature of it or it becomes not art, which is maybe the single stupidest thing I've ever heard about video games aren't art stream you were on. Yeah. >> Like, no, no, no. This might be it. This might be the single dumbest thing somebody's ever said in this entire argument, >> right? Because like you can make the argument that, you know, games aren't art. I don't agree with you, but you can make that argument. >> But to suggest that just the simple fact that it's interactive means that you have to take it to a whole different level of standard simply because the player is going to be interacting with it is [ __ ] stupid. It >> It's because he's put interact interactivity sort of on top of the other things as if it has no bearing on them again. It's like just another another cup that needs to be filled with the greatness. >> As if like the entire process of how a game is made is fundamentally extremely different to a film. And a large part of the problem right now is that attempts to ape film and make games in the manner of film are not properly accounting for the unique benefits and the unique drawbacks video games have. Like we've got the [ __ ] Last of Us on the screen right now, which is making me seize. Um, like that's a good example though is like a film, right? A film has a about 2 hours, let's say, to tell its story and to do everything it needs to do. A game usually needs so much longer to tell the same kind of story when made in this sort of way cuz it has to be padded out with so much [ __ ] for the player to do because the game understands that the player is supposed to do something, but it doesn't understand how to integrate that into the telling of the story. It just understands why Ellie has to go on a massacre in Last of Us 2. >> That's why you remove so many [ __ ] ladders. >> Yeah. >> These types of games have to sort of deal with and they don't grudgingly put awesome like narrative sequence like there was a really good scene or whatever the [ __ ] I don't know. And then it's like okay move crates and shoot zombies in like mid gameplay for the next two hours and then get another like >> to unlock the next story. Yeah. and and almost treat these as non-cononical because it's almost like unfathomable that Joel could have killed this many people. >> Yes. >> Like without without getting killed himself. It's like an Uncharted, you know, Nathan Drake's body count is like insane. >> Um and it doesn't it doesn't transfer over to the way that he interacts with other characters or even situations where it's like, oh, Lazarovich is he's pointing the gun at you. It's like you could stop him. I just did that like with all of these other bad guys in the in the game. a sort of an opinion I've been like kind of brewing and I'm not sure of yet, but like I'm working my way towards the perspective that video games are sort of like uniquely bad at storytelling because of their need to account for a player. Like it is uniquely extremely difficult to tell a particular set story that you want to tell in a video game because there's a player there. that player has agency and that agency needs to be respected for it to remain like palatable as a game. >> Well, maybe consider that the agency is it's like a it's like a multiplier where it could make good narratives really good, but it could make like bad execution of narratives really bad. Like it can swing either way super hard. >> I I've seen a few people in chat say it's a skill issue, which is the way that I would I would say on that. I would say it's more that games are face a unique challenge in terms of figuring out how to integrate stories that don't contradict >> or impede mechanics or vice versa. But not that it's like >> it it's it's a challenge that has to be overcome that is which is funny. This guy might go yeah it's like but that's not your point though because your point is that >> not that it's not that it's a challenge that needs to be dealt with. It's that >> all these examples >> create a scale of like how well it's achieved in different games while he's saying like no it just disqualifies them and it's like what no >> right that's crazy about it right because like I don't disagree that like ludo narrative dissonance exists and it can be a problem to to the narrative of a story right like there's I think kind of sort of famously with the new Tomb Raider uh reboots right she is freaking out about the first person she kills and then you immediately in the very next second kill like 30 more. Right. So like that is a problem certainly in in the narrative that you're telling, but I can't imagine saying that that isn't I literally have a piece of the concept art from that game on my [ __ ] wall, right? Like how can you say that's not art? >> The writing is weak. If it plays well, the visuals are uninspired and so on and so forth. this >> um what again this is backing his whole thing of you have to have every single component on top tier quality otherwise the whole thing can't be considered art >> all of this to assume there even needs to be a particularly strong narrative or much of a narrative at all >> where the [ __ ] did he get this from >> also can't you have bad art you can have bad art there are bad artists >> oh boy this is a show for it >> like this is this is like um Binding of Isaac that the aesthetic of that game is really disgusting and I that just enhances the game. So I don't on what standard would you say that the visual is uninspired also? >> Yeah. What if you are intentionally creating a style that is supposed to be grotesque and disgusting >> commercial said intent, right? It goes into intent. You know, if you well, if you intend for it to be grotesque to say a reason, then then that's good. But if you do it by accident, then that's bad. I think you could actually take most of Andy Warhol's stuff and throw it against his definitions and it wouldn't qualify as art, >> right? I think you could take Basat and it wouldn't qualify as art. >> Pollock Pollock Kandinsky, right? >> I mean, but is that maybe this guy would say, "Yeah, they're not." >> But maybe maybe he has a different triangle for paintings. Maybe paintings have a different triangle. >> I don't know. I could totally imagine that he would say that's not art. I could believe that. >> What about Binksy then? Right. Like at what point has has it become not art? >> That's crazy about, you know, like I just I think that this is the problem that you run into when you when you start to draw these lines like this instead of just casting a wide net. >> Mr. uh Citizen Kane is like a you know, blah blah blah. What have I said? Yep, he's right. He's true. 11 out of 10 on every single aspect. makeup department failed in the aging makeup though, so I guess it's not art at this point. >> For me, >> what's the tipping point? Yeah. What's the tipping point of it is no longer art based on >> just absurd. If one department failed at one aspect and the whole thing collapses as art, that's in that's just nonsense. >> Yeah. So, get your [ __ ] together, Susan. We're trying to make a film here. >> Oopsie. Oops. >> Sorry. >> Who's the ultimate judge of it? Like, who's this guy? >> Yeah, but he has no standard. He has no way to like put these on a he can't he doesn't have a system to run something through to get the result at the end as to whether it's good or not. >> Not to not to like doomer a little bit but we are like way overemphasizing narrative with this triangle because games are like an experiential art form more so than a narrative one in that story. >> Yeah. You don't even have characters. >> Yeah. You can have a lot of games with like artistic intent behind them if we want to use stupid terminology like that that >> are like basically without a story. Rainworld does not have much of a story like in terms of actual story that you play through. >> You just go >> it has like a descriptive here's what happens but everything has that basically. >> Yeah. >> Sure. >> Yeah. >> I mean what's the story of Tetris? You can take that even further with your your souls or elen rings where the story is, you know, entirely meta um and barely told to you. Uh and what does this have to do with like retrospective experiences, right? How you remember it. Because I tell you, that's more what I consider to be like higher arts, right? Is how it makes me feel like that is kind of it, right? And and when we're talking about that, boy, there's nothing that can make you feel quite as hard as something that you're immersed and interacting with. >> This is why I think chasing the label of art is so disastrous for video games. Ain't nobody CHASING NOTHING. >> IT'S SO DISASTROUS IS WHERE YOU COULD HAVE ENDED IT. >> HE SORT of like manufactured the chasing the label. >> But I mean that chasing of it >> in a really like definitive way. There is no chasing it. It just it is or it isn't, man. You're but you're trying to make it a chase. You turned it into one. >> He says art in instead of saying artsy >> that will that will undermine several video games is that they will have preconceived notions of what being artsy is. And Neil Duckman is probably a very good example of that. So chasing what he socially believes to be good art, not art, but good art, artsiness, harms the overall quality of the stuff he puts out because he gives too much weight to certain qualities, not enough weight to certain other qualities, and the result is something that tries to be a movie, fails to be a movie, and never tried to be be a video game in the first place. So that will like chasing that absolutely will harm your eventual work of art, but it is still a work of art even if it's terrible. this entire time. The only thing I can think of is Jesse Pinkman being like, "This is glass grade. You're an artist, Mr. White." >> And he was. >> That woman is obviously a work of art. >> And they didn't their their focus was not on like a a strong narrative and good characters. >> And there was a department in their rags that did their job well. I'm not sure which one it was, but gosh darn it. >> The camera was in focus. >> Yes, true. >> So, good job camera focusers. Can I just say >> maybe this guy is secretly based because he's implying that Last of Us 2 sucks ass. So maybe he's secretly based. I don't know. >> I almost though what's interesting about all of this is if someone said like what's the bigger insult to say The Last of Us 2 is [ __ ] art or that it's not art. Like well [ __ ] art, right? >> Surely by this guy's logic every single game ever made would also occupy the same category. How worthless would it be to say The Last of Us 2 is an art? But to be fair, literally no video game is. >> Yeah, who cares at that point? >> For some reason, the [ __ ] categorical claim is being out to be more damning than the qualitative one. I don't really understand. >> Like, not that there is anybody. But if anybody thought, "No, I think I agree with this guy because I hate The Last of Us." I like, "Dude, he's taken all video games with him. All of them." >> Yep. >> You squeeze the more it slips through your fingers. It becomes a tactless series of homages and references where it feels like the creators are begging the audience to see their work as a peer to the greats when the greats. >> Wait, wait, wait. Can I just say that every everything he's saying kind of falls under mixtape LIKE >> God came to my mind to start >> was uh the second he said like a series of homages that wants to be taken seriously. There's like the great like oh kind of like some of the like Star Wars or Tarantino movies >> you know >> that's also there >> kind of the great made no such effort themselves but they did like most of them did most of them had ideas of what the great preceding them had done that they wanted to either emulate or repurpose for their own ends Lucas didn't sit there with Star Wars and say ah [ __ ] what Kurasawa did actually and I don't really care about 2001 of space obviously they didn't try very hard, so I'm not going to try very hard either. That's not what he did, and it's not what most people who fancied themselves to be or want to be great artists do either. They study the grades before them because the grades before them studied the grades before them and so on. >> What if you take a foreign film that's amazing in every way and then you give it a dub so the English audiences can watch it, but it's a really bad dub and therefore a bad part of the artistry and therefore the whole film is not art anymore. Mhm. >> He just goes into the what whatever he considers to be at what point does the scale tip and something a a he said one department failing that's all it takes. So like voice acting is an art right form skill. >> What what about like unironically but what about catering? >> Yeah. >> What about on a film catering is a part catering is a part of that film's production because you can bet that bad catering where people get sick can impact the quality of the film. So by his logic, if the catering on on a film production is not good, that film ceases to be art. >> Wait, you Well, I guess actually do you think he would consider cooking as art? >> I don't know what he thinks art is. I don't know. >> We have to consult the triangle. We have to consult the triangle. We have savory, salty, sweet, and everywhere. >> The triangle lord, >> the Dorito, >> right? like this very argument that he's made that you cannot possibly make an or have a piece of art that isn't uh that is an homage right like even if we were to take it back to what he originally started with with you know pictures of Michelangelo Michelangelo is inspired by Donatello you know uh this this entire argument that you cannot build on and be great by building on the greats and and man like this is is just such a wrong statement to make even outside of video games. Right. This is the type of thing that you say when you don't understand any art. It is such a wrong statement. >> It is a bizarre Yeah, it is a bizarre take. It's like a It's like an aliens take. And while I don't think that aliens are subhuman, it means that they just don't have a context of I guess these sorts of things. Yeah, I'm not a crazy psych >> crazy racist statement right there. Oh, what a wacky guy. Who the guy who would say that >> were content to utilize their own medium to the fullest without any such insecurity. It happens with films nowadays. That's what Oscar bait is. It's when something rides the coattails of it. >> Nowadays, >> really nowadays. >> Nowadays, >> are you serious? >> The recent phenomenon of >> I don't even understand anymore. It's like so the second it tries to create based on what is like celebrated typically and so it's not like an authentic expression of those skills, it's it's it's aiming to get awards, it's like but what if it does it though? Like what if it does well? >> But what if it does it? >> Yeah. What if succeeds? >> Because you said that it's intent and skill, right? Like that's the core things that determine whether or not is or is not in the buckets of art. So if I am intentionally creating great art and doing it skillfully, but also I want it to be seen as art, it automatically isn't. What kind of [ __ ] is that, peeb? >> Whoa. >> One of the things that I one of like I don't think that like Yeah. What if you discover something that's alien or foreign or ancient and you don't understand exactly what it is and there's no the people who made it who are long dead, they're gone. you can't communicate with them more anymore. They left no records. You don't know what the intent of something is. So, that's going to be integral for you determining whether or not something is art. How do you how do you how do you find out? And it's not even a problem if you aren't able to find out. I think there's plenty of instances of, you know, potentially us finding things and not knowing if it was made intentionally or sufficiently subconsciously. Maybe we find things and we don't know if they're art or not, but I don't think that's a problem. I think that's just the nature of the world. It's the nature of what art is. You can't necessarily rep, you know, recognize it for what it is, but that doesn't mean it is or isn't art. >> Except according to this guy, Rags, the only way to possibly do it is to both intend to make art, but not intend for people to view it artistically. You have to go into it with such a a incredible level of skill and mastery, right? To be one of the art to produce something, right? And then >> Yeah, but don't don't have it be art. Oh, dear God. >> But it cannot be you. Oh, I want people to enjoy this and view it as art and maybe I want to be remunerated for it. No, no, no, no. >> So, you have to accidentally make something generational and iconic and inspiring and amazing like you have to do it almost by accident because if you don't do it by accident, it means you are purposefully striving to create something great. >> Was um uh why am I shalam? He said that he wants he wants to be a great actor and it's like well now you've disqualified yourself. >> You doomed yourself. >> You fool. You fool. What have you done? >> Think of whiplash >> hoping to kill. >> Well, it's mostly a drama. >> Whiplash is an artistic film about somebody who is striving to not be an artist. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> Capture some of their greatness for itself. Can you honestly think of a game whose writing is on par with that of a work of literature? Whose cinematic elements are on par with that of a great >> Yeah. Like, I'm sorry. This is just shy. I mean you you're sorry man you you just like you come across as a lite here. >> New art forms can be incredible. Like imagine this guy hears the ra a radio drama for the first time or I mean what what would he say the first time a movie was made or a play you know like come on man don't don't be a lot >> well movies have removed you know the immersive nature of watching a play which is real art of course they've just commercialized it and made it like this this argument is the exact reverse of the same argument that everybody made a hundred years ago >> we're also just like buying into some really stupid logic even if we do like accept all of this complete nonsense of like oh well it hasn't happened yet therefore it's it's not going to happen or it won't happen or it's extraordinarily difficult for it to happen which who says any of those things are true. >> He said like oh if if it's great on visuals it'll be bad on something else and it's good on that something else it'll be bad on the other thing. It's like well so you're saying theoretically it's possible >> but that video games are not art. Full stop. like he just >> hypothetical perfect movie. >> I wish we got point which is just that he doesn't think that there's any like video game story that's particularly great with all this [ __ ] up to this point. And also it's it's still cuz even if that was granted which would be ridiculous but even if it was how do you deal with Tetris that has no narrative ambitions whatsoever? It's arcade. >> It grinds my gears so much that we lead with story and we're constantly like banking on story as like the main one that we go to when games have so many more forms of artistic expression >> because to experiences. >> There's plenty of films I'm sure that he would consider great even if the stories are like pretty like okay. They're like they're they're they're tight but they're not like super complex or anything. Like they're fine stories but they're executed super well. So, how does that impact the ranking or is this like >> At this point, I imagine that he would like he lives in a world where a film can't be art if it there's an explosion in it like once. >> If there's ever a car that flips over going off or >> Yeah, cuz now it's action and it's not literature, you know, like it's um could be a dramatic explosion. >> Why don't Comedy's been cursed for ages. Comedy's just in the bucket of unfair treatment and it has been for a long time, unfortunately. It's like, yeah, >> people hate joy. >> What are we doing talking about cinematography in a game where the player very frequently has control over the camera >> or Yeah. Or it's a I mean what cinematography could be >> if the player controls the camera then that means that theoretically there are two different playthroughs of the same game. One of which has great cinematography. The other has terrible cinematography. One of those gameplay playthroughs is art and the other one isn't. >> It's No, it's I'm figuring this it's cuz this is modern. This is like he's only thinking of like [ __ ] Sony movie games. That's like what he's thinking of. He's he's not thinking of like >> he's not thinking of anything that wasn't made prior to 2010 >> like at all. >> Made by a [ __ ] AAA studio. >> Yeah. if we had to submit something to to get him out of this mindset. It's like the Resident Evil 1 remake cinematography in that game. There are some moments with the fixed camera where I had to like stop and just look for a bit. So I was like, "Oh, that's gorgeous." But simultaneously, the control over it, right, allows you to see [ __ ] in ways that it particularly satisfies you, like you know, a particular landscape of the way that something is unfolding. Or like me, you can just completely skip over things like Fauxhammer dying in in Halo cuz I just drove right past. >> You just don't even look at it, right? And like what does that if if I could watch a movie in a theater and look away from the screen, right? And I missed that thing. Oh well, now what? >> Now the movie >> the film is bad. >> It's insane. >> Maybe he would say that your ability to recognize it for what it is is is different from the thing being. But we added we added the idea of interaction, right? Like interaction is the layer on top of film that separates game from film and therefore it can never be artistic. So my interaction >> the game would say the game that has incredible mechanics but has never yet been played is still >> I think didn't we have this conversation picture like a video game is created it's on a hard drive but nobody ever played it. Is it art or some [ __ ] like that? >> Yeah. And I would say Because yeah, because there's some people who think that it has to there has to be a perceiver of something to make it art, which I disagree with, but some people think that >> and who's getting >> is of the same pedigree. The closest I can get would be something like maybe Metal Gear Solid, but that franchise still stands >> the remake. He shows the remake, you little piss ant. >> It's also very funny to me, but whatever. the artistry of a [ __ ] remake that is there to like solely for the purpose of cashing in on an IP. That's so [ __ ] funny, dude. >> Firmly on the shoulders of the giant that is film and it leans on it. >> Oh, I thought you say on the shoulders of the thing it's remaking, but all right. As though film doesn't sit on the shoulders of other artworks. Like what the [ __ ] >> It does. He said the his point of comparison earlier was what what game has the same writing quality as a great film? But then the question used to be posed, what film has the same writing quality of a great novel? And before that it was, what novel has the same writing quality as a great poem? >> And then before that it was a great play. >> Grind it all the way down to the cave paintings. That's where we're going. >> Yeah. Yeah. Campfire stories and cave paintings. >> But hold on though. We >> you don't think Grog game painting art? Grock Grock have specific intentions to examine themes of work. >> I mean I mean entertaining but not art trying to be artsy. >> It storytelling and its interactivity are firmly separated where it's really just a film inter you're not allowed to do this. You can't do this. >> Unfortunately, I'm not very familiar with Metal Gear Solid, but even I know that's not true. >> Yeah, this is this is just a blatant lie, but you're also not allowed to make this move. Like, >> well, it's really rude cuz there's so many uh developers that have tried really hard to marry mechanics into storytelling and this is just this is just like nah, no one's done it. Nah, it's like okay, fine, I guess. >> Off the top of my >> I was ALREADY GOING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE IDEA THAT HE SAID, "OH, THIS ONE'S FINE, ACTUALLY." OKAY, >> this one's fine, actually. >> But they're the only one he can think of is Met Solid 3. It's the only one separated, >> brother. not been playing games for 30 years. >> Maybe he's got a soft spot for it. Maybe he's got a >> I think I think it's because like something that uh he's >> Oh god, he's he's clearly inspired by films. >> Oh yeah. The closer a game is to a film, the more likely the closest it can aspire to be art. Yet never get there. That's what looks like what is exactly going to go on to say cuz the next line is it's really just a film interspersed with so like the film part of it that's the thing that could maybe be considered art but the minute the gameplay stuff happens that's it's not art that it >> yers with gameplay I enjoy immensely but these are two mediums at odds with each other not a harmonious >> not a harmonious hole >> why >> he's just making up [ __ ] for the sake of it. >> Yeah, it seems like it cuz you can't take >> Yeah, we've already presented it in this manner of like you just have to tick all of the boxes and now we're introducing the idea that each work is like holistic. Why didn't it work this way for the other things? >> It's a bit of a bugger, isn't it? Cuz this reminds me of someone who'd said like they really liked S, but the game play was so arbitrarily like staple. It was clearly a movie. It was forced into being a game. And I was like, dude, it has to be a game. Like it wouldn't work if it was a movie. or rather it wouldn't work in the same way. >> It would definitely lose something if it was a movie. >> You need to be playing as the character. You need to experience the certain things that happen in certain ways in order for the point to get across. So it was just like oh well that's a shame I guess like the effort they put in for that and the reason for it has been completely missed. But similarly it's one of many games that do this that take advantage of the medium on the level of storytelling by threading the mechanics in. But no, his whole point here is that we've not done that. That's just not happened. But again >> decided that storytelling all end. >> Yes. >> No. >> Every video we cover is potential. >> Yeah. I guess there are people in chat right now believe it and it could be rage bait. >> People in chat right now think that backseater is just like a troll. He's real, guys. He really ate out of the pot. >> He his mother is in on it. >> He has a humiliation fetish. He's like Boogie. DSX is commonly referred to as gaming's citizen cane moment, but I'd consider that wishful thinking. I am the biggest DSX fan on the planet currently, but still it did not make me feel something on the same level as this. Well, what if it did like >> it? Oh my Oh my god, this is some illiterate [ __ ] >> Have you read [ __ ] No. I >> I just think it's really funny that we're doing it again. was like, "Yeah, Deosex shows Deosex Human Revolution, >> which is not on the game Deosex that everyone raves about." >> That's the person who filed the DMCA, right? >> This is a safe space for Human Revolution enjoyers. >> Oh, no. I got that. >> Dex filed the DMCA, I think. >> Oh, you're That's actually too deep of a cut for everyone here except me, I think. >> No, I understood that reference. That's That's an Noah reference. Dis Marionette. >> Deuce. Oh, de Mar. Yes. When you said it was super deep, I was going >> Now you brought that up, Nick. I'm not going to let you take away. Like 99% of the time you see that name, you say deuce. >> I see. >> Yes. Every time. >> Too unserious. >> That's why it registered. I'm like, "Oh, that's how you say it." >> Blinded by the light. >> But like this is insane that the the peak of the argument comes down to just, "Well, I didn't feel it." It's like, "I'm gonna hold your hand when I say this." But there are people >> who feel more when playing Tetris than watching Apocalypse Now. What do you do with those people saying that it didn't feel something? He's saying it didn't feel something on the same level. >> Not enough. Not enough. Damn it. >> Such such a funny rebuttal of like games aren't art. You know why? It was like, well, have any of them ever been the best ever? >> Yeah. I didn't think so. >> Exactly. But it would be one thing if he was like this technically fails here like and it doesn't technically fail in the other thing and therefore like if it didn't technically fail then on a on a technical level is what I'm trying to say versus I didn't feel it. I didn't feel it was great. You're like okay but >> and it's not great dude. This is like an argument. >> I don't think this guy's like getting AI allegations because of his voice. But what the [ __ ] Like >> maybe it's not the voice it's >> not for a moment. Yeah, go on. >> Sorry. Some chuckle [ __ ] just walk in and go, I felt like I read Crime and Punishment when I played DSX and it's over for him. >> That's what I'm saying. >> Yeah. Yeah. I don't mean to denigrate any of these choices, but if I said it about, you know, Super Mario Sunshine, if I said I got way more out of that game than I did out of Apocalypse Now, I assume you'd be like, "You're pathetic." They be like, "Okay." >> Yeah. It's just that argument. Yeah, a lot of this seems to be way too dependent on the observer. >> Again, the the the immersive part, right? The interactive part. I'm sorry, not like that's >> Yeah, it's insane to suggest that because of how I perceive something that changes what it is, right? It can change what I feel about it, but it doesn't change what it is. >> True. Yes. It's just not for a moment can I picture this guy like sitting down actually reading Prime Prejudice and [ __ ] like liking and enjoying Jane Austin. >> Oh, I don't think he liked and enjoyed it, but I do think he read it, right? So that he could say he read it. >> I think he is the biggest [ __ ] snob. And it's such a such a funny thing that his magnumopus is [ __ ] Citizen Kane cuz first of all Arson Wells would [ __ ] hate you. And second of all, Isn't Kane's really good? >> We're such a walking stereotype. >> I I I really want to just like every time people do this [ __ ] I just want to like literature check them essentially because like you can't be coming out here with all of this snobbery and then picking the most basic answers in like every category. It makes you look a bit weird. Like perhaps you might just be some sort of poser >> performance my favorite game is Dark Souls. Yeah. >> Yeah. I was, you know, I was like, and my favorite film is um Well, yeah. Citizen Kane. Like that's, you know, that's it. >> Citizen Kane and Pride of Pride and Prejudice is on my screen. Like this could only be worse if it was [ __ ] war and peace like >> or crime. >> Well, that's why we're circling around it cuz you that is the meme. You can't really do more than citizen. Comparing any art form thing to citizen Kane is the meme of oh, >> you're you really know your [ __ ] don't you? You're very >> and and that's the thing be like so so there's nothing to celebrate about Citizen Kle to compare to. It's like no it is it's just it implies every time to celebrate about literally everything that you pick like Pride and Prejudice or Crime and Punishment or Breaking Bad if you're talking about television. It's just that the choices >> That's right. It is. It It's gold. I mean it is a comedy. It is a comedy. Like, you know, Breaking Bad is trying to be a comedy, which I guess by that logic would preclude it to some extent from being >> um >> and yet the Ozen Mandas episode is the highest rated episode ever, right? Like, so most people would say that that was the most entertaining, the best, right? So, is that automatically not art and not comedy? And where does it go? Like, like there's so much here, man, and like so little at the same time. to to help to help out a few people in chat. The reason why these are getting brought up is not because they aren't actually like great, you know, great of their respective, you know, realms like Crime and Punishment or Breaking Bad. The point is like these are often the choices that people will go to that reveal that they're kind of >> they're actually kind of boring and they're kind of pretending like they're a little bit more sophisticated than they actually are. Whereas, if they came out and surprised you with something you'd never heard of before, you'd be like, "Oh, okay." There's probably a reason behind that compared to oh well I know that this is a show that I meant to watch and like. It's like when um when Chris Duckman had to watch um Bladeunner five times before he said it was great. That's like the kind of person we talk about or to throw a bit of um if someone said you know one of the greatest female characters of all time and you only say Ripley and and Sarah Connor but you you give no context. just like h do you actually think that or did you just get that from the fact that everyone cites them >> you know like like why do you think they're good characters and you're like well because of they just they are really good they are really well done >> right >> yeah good good job right like if you were to ask me what I think my most artistic book of all time would be it's Rama by Arthur Clark and yet >> that is not something that I think he would consider to be artistic in in this definition right because it is sort I don't know, pulpy written by a science fiction author. I it's not even remotely. And yet for me, that is the thing that gives me as a a you know, a series the most emotional feels. Uh and I I feel like that is art. >> Wrong. >> Mhm. >> Or right, depending on this guy. Never tell. >> Just [ __ ] wrong. In terms of >> at least have the decency to run down to like the second rung on the ladder and say something like stalker like come on >> or that >> it's robotic and not in the way that it intends to be. Of course it is still a >> DSX get it cuz he's Robocop. >> You care to elaborate upon that >> serious contender for the title of the greatest game ever made. But that doesn't automatically earn it the title of being a brilliant work of art. >> Nobody had to say brilliant. >> Yeah, it just does. Is it a work of art or not? >> And it absolutely is. Why are we [ __ ] around with this? >> Like come on. >> Brother has not played a video game. That's my only at this point. >> I'm curious if he thinks there's such a thing as bad art. It's either >> sounds like no. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm getting the vibes from the stuff he said. You don't get to be art if you're [ __ ] doesn't exist. We've we've crushed the two senses of art together such that now like yeah being art >> like you can't be bad if you are art and not even you can't be bad you have to be exceptional to be art. >> So every drawing done by I'm not saying all children make [ __ ] art. Plenty of them are talented early but like you know he is wiping out a whole sector that's insane to be like that's not art. Maybe when you grow up it will be. You're like okay kids respect. Oddly, I think the most convincing argument I could make off the top of my head. >> Okay, this is exciting. >> You should You should >> My most convincing argument 7 minutes into the video. >> I'm I'm going to give him a chance. I'm going to give him a chance >> would be Halo 2. >> Halo 2, >> bro. >> Commentary on religious indoctrination was relevant at the time. It's gameplay is excellent as a foundation if not flawed in regards to >> it. We've got it. He just likes it. That's it. If you like it, it's if you don't, it's not. That's it. >> If this is the exception to the >> I'm going to be honest with you. I I I am yet played Halo 2, but there's no [ __ ] way that Halo 2 is like the, you know, like he's he's listed out all other games have been disqualified. Halo 2 is the one that might make it. That's insane. >> Which is funny. when Halo 2 was like a known Halo 2 was a known flawed game like like in notable ways. >> That's why we love it. >> Well, hey. All right, hang on now. Okay, I don't know about that, but it >> I love it. I love Halo 2 for being a weird wacky game. I love it. >> But um but Halo 2 is like like the sniper jackals alone would probably should be disqualifying by his metric, I assume. >> I think that you need to [ __ ] accept that the sniper jackals are arch, good sir. What about like the worst? He's even saying it's flawed, right? Like he is saying it's flawed in this very sentence. >> But what I'm saying is it's like it's it's notably flawed. >> Well, yeah, but his metric particular if one if one thing is flawed by enough of a standard, then the whole thing collapses. Yeah, that's essent that's literally my only cuz I would say that what I like about Halo 2 is that I think it's got like in terms of the Halo games, it's probably got some of the highest highs, but also some of the lowest lows compared to something like Halo 3, which is very consistent and polished and smooth throughout. >> Do they hate it being No, it's it's >> I I'd give them what like it's it's it's really cool on a lot of fronts, but it's got some it's got some big problems, especially when you're playing on like legendary. But my point like the thing is is that for me it's not even a problem. But in his world he's created this weird metric where if one aspect of of your game is compromised in a notable way then it's no longer art. And unfortunately you picked a game that is like compromised known it's known to be compromised >> to be clear. >> That's like its reputation in the series >> with everything he said to this point. >> The crunch and the the it was a [ __ ] [ __ ] show to get that thing made. With everything he said up to this point, I think a lot of us were expecting a pick like for example like a Metroid Prime or even Super Metroid or something like um maybe Witcher 3. A lot of people might pick that one. You talk about um Shadow Colossus. That would be another one. Yeah. The ide going to Halo 2. It almost feels like it shatters the whole video cuz it's like dude you are the pretentious king. No way you can pick Halo 2. Like it's like one of the most dude it's arguably the most dude bro games over like diminish the game even though I'm I am not fond of this series but it's like a popcorn flick in the way he would talk about films right like this this is not like a serious game in the way you know parenthesy drama >> it's more of a movie game than a film game is what you're saying in that triangle >> he is I mean if we're going to be honest he's being way too kind to the game if he places it on the triangle and it's not like really solidly in the bottom left. >> He's having it beat up. So to to back um the the thing that Nick often ends up saying, we would have expected him to say like the best game is Ble from France and it was made by two people in a basement. >> It's like, oh, you picked Pride and Prejudice because you felt like you had to. >> Yeah, >> that's almost what it tells me. >> Cuz I don't care about Pride and Prejudice, but I love Halo 2, you know? That's that's the kind of guy I am, you know? Like, but it's uh it's just >> if you think if you think I'm going to watch Tar again over another Halo 2 play through, then you are [ __ ] insane. All right. >> Wait, you don't want to watch too? >> That's what I mean, though. If he had said something that none of us recognize, we probably will be like, "Okay, so what does this thing do? What what's so special about it?" But no, it was just Halo [ __ ] 2. This might be one of the funniest things it could have been. Like, >> imagine imagine it said COD 4 Modern Warfare or something. Like what? >> You don't understand. All up, Mer. Allulate up. >> The pick is Simpsons hit and run. We're like, okay. All right. Yes, I I can see it. >> He totally redeems. >> I see the vision. >> He has an original thought in his head. Wow. >> Still, I think it's a bit too simple and is almost objectively incomplete. It's a trickier question than it first seems. I guarantee you. You brought it up, though. >> I like how he he like Halo 2. You might be the winner except for all of these reasons why it's definitely not. >> Everybody knows that it's an game. >> Does he say why? Will he say why though? >> Why? What? >> Because he likes >> he likes it. It's a game that he likes that he's quite fond of because he probably played it. It's probably one of his first games he played. Or like >> he said the Foundation was incredible. That's it. He gave us three. The Foundation. If you could split Halo 2 into like 10 categories of creation for a game, I think he believes it all scores at like an eight out of 10 at least on all of them. And therefore, that's why >> I wish I could say that's the case, but like Halo 2, you can't it's you really can't make that argument for Halo 2. >> But even then, even if we accepted that >> he had just moments before that said that DSX was the best. >> Best game ever. >> He said it was a strong contender, but he didn't play DSX quite as early. a loser compared to Halo 2. Get [ __ ] >> It's Arbiter time. >> He's fond of Halo 2 because it's probably one of the first games he played and he got to DSX later. >> Yeah, I mean, but it's an odd pick. >> Your personal favorite games do not hold up to that level of scrutiny. And this is why I maintain that to the question of are video games >> this level of scrutiny. >> Right. What did you What did you say here? What what did you say? Sorry. >> Let's I'll roll him all the way. is excellent as a foundation if not flawed in regard. >> So his argument is since we can break [ __ ] down and it won't be perfect. It can never be is that >> yeah because well because citizen basically is and other examples like that video games have not reached that level yet. >> You can say I'm sorry I'm just getting a headache now. It that's for everything though right like I'm just realizing the implication of what he's saying right like >> uh citizen games perfect um there's books that are perfect like uh Pride and Prejudice. So >> Pride and Prejudice and War in Peace. >> Pride and Prejudice down the list. >> I'm sorry, but Pride and Prejudice is just a romance book, right? Why is that suddenly better than Pride and Prejud Pride and Prejudice is like hyper influential and important and significant as a book. >> Piece of literature, if not great, >> but >> it probably is really really good, but I'm not interested in hearing what he has to say about it. That's the thing. I don't want to hear what Pete has to say about that that book. >> If we're going to say that something is culturally or society important and therefore it is art than video games are as well, >> you get into a much more awkward position cuz when you're talking about something like Halo, it's like Halo is massively more influential right now. Not now. Sorry. 10 15 years ago. Sorry. No, no, not right now. It's dead. It's [ __ ] still even though, right? It is still more important, right? It's like, yeah, Call of Duty 4 is more important today in terms of like its impact on um on on one of the biggest, you know, realms of entertainment in the world and a lot of the you could be pointing to even though a lot of those books would be like foundational for the things that came afterwards. But but this is a stupid way of talking about it, you know, like I don't even like that this is the way that we have to >> Yes, that's really stupid of this video. But what point is he about to make here? I'm really curious. polish, but still I think it's a bit too simple and is almost objectively incomplete. It's a trickier question than it first seems. I guarantee you even your personal favorite games do not hold up to that level of scrutiny. And this is why I maintain that to the question of are video games art. The answer is they could be, but they're not yet. They may >> Oh, so that's okay. Why did he even bring up Halo 2? >> He didn't he didn't go anywhere. He just wanted to be >> That was the most like shout out to my boy >> the Halo. >> Shout out to my boy Halo 2 supposed to be like even Halo 2. >> Even Halo 2, dude. >> Laughable. But >> even laughable. God damn it. >> Yeah, Theo. Let's let's I don't know, man. >> Go for the throat, Theo. But I was going to say, by the way, that selection, that's the most he's ever sounded like an AI in this whole thing. >> The uh the brakes were very like what the [ __ ] going on there? The computer's screwing up. I'm willing to buy. >> I love that I love that he's made his video wrong. They could You're wrong. Video games are not art. Whereas his actual statement is they could be, but they're not art yet. >> That's a different claim. >> Although you could say does sort of follow from his standard of art earlier is that though theoretically they could be, the standard is so high that functionally they will never be because they have become so complex that it can't possibly pan out that way. This just feels so weird. >> Video games. Some of the best video games are this. >> Well, he's probably played like 1%. >> Mhm. >> At maximum. >> Yeah. Cross his 30 years. >> So, it's just it just feels awkward to be like, "Yeah, one of them might have achieved the things that I'm talking about, but they haven't." You're like, "Oh, >> he clearly hasn't played. >> Clearly, one of them hasn't played. >> Clearly, one of them has." >> Exactly. >> Really good indie game. >> A brilliant works of art within them, but the whole package falls short of that designation. >> There you go. There's art in them, but they're not art themselves. >> So, so, so they are 90% art. They're 90% >> like fantastic. >> Imagine trying to explain if you take things citizen gets translated into [ __ ] French by some idiot, then it's no longer art as a film like or if the voices sound weird. >> I'm just [ __ ] I'm just [ __ ] annoyed that he says objectively it doesn't meet the standard and he just leaves it at that without any explanation. I'm like I at least explain yourself godamn it like >> okay but the problem is that he has explained himself and it's [ __ ] stupid because he said that all you know films have all of these things they have cinematography and they have soundtracks and they've got all this whatever right and the only difference between movie and game is interactivity it has a layer of interactivity and because of that it can hit everything but it can never hit 100% because of interactivity that is actually what he's saying here >> right like even regardless of what he thinks He's saying that is the actual argument he's made >> and there's that he IS AGAIN BLAMING ME THE PLAYER. >> YEAH, the argument is because there is an extra point of failure essentially. That's what it reduces to. Games have an extra point of failure that isn't present in other mediums. Therefore, they just haven't made it yet, I guess. >> But every time he references why any game fails in this section, it's always been one of the departments, not because of interactivity. >> Yep. >> Yeah. And and >> he's never Yeah. He's barely mentioned like mechanics or interactivity period to the point where sometimes you forget he's talking about video games. >> He alluded to the most important of them are those things. >> He he alluded to the marriage of um mechanics and narrative like one time and then like dropped it because I think he quickly realized he's not allowed to do that anymore with how the video has proceeded. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Right. Like we've we've moved our goalpost 15 times. or goalpost art. >> We're not diluting the designation itself. You can mess around with definitions all you want, but >> all you want to mess around with definitions. >> The thing with that is you actually you can kind of do that, but you actually kind of can't do that because definitions are kind of a social thing. >> He has done the thing. He's [ __ ] with the definition of art so hard this comes across as like an aliens video. It's like I said, imagine trying to explain any of this [ __ ] to someone. Like you're you you come out of I don't know a [ __ ] film. Yeah, that was really good to us. That's true. >> And then you're like talking to your friend and they're like, "Yeah, that was really good." And you was good, but it wasn't art though. And the conversation happens. >> The takeaway that a lot of us seem to have is, "Oh, dude, it's not about whether or not you think it's art. You just don't think they're very good." That's all. >> A cracked fine with that. >> Yeah, I'm fine with that, too. >> Sorry, Nata. Go ahead. No, I meant, you know, imagine being cornered by this guy at a party. >> This guy doesn't go to parties. >> No, he doesn't. >> I'm picturing that meme of the guy like, you know, >> they don't know I don't like Halo, too. They do. >> They don't They don't know. >> They don't know that Ho is almost art. >> Almost art. Yeah. They don't know. That's good. >> Almost art is a good designation. I'm going to steal that one. >> Do you would you apply that to the party itself? Is that Are you having a good time? Yeah, it's a good time. But you know, there's that one person there. So, this isn't really a party. >> Yeah. If Jimmy left that [ __ ] >> Let's not dilute Let's not dilute the term party. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Somebody comes up to you like Jimmy's not doing he's not handling his alcohol very well. You go up to him, he's in tears. It's like Halo 2 is just so close to King Art. >> Dude, if they just removed a couple of Jackal Snipers, we would have been fine. >> You were this close to great. You've got the charts and everything of like exactly how many Jackal snipers you'd need to get rid of. >> They're never going to get >> Okay, hold on. Hold on. What about Neo? >> Neo has an auto battler that will play the entire game for you. >> Well, the whole game makes it easier. Well, that makes it easier to be art because it removes like >> there's no Right, right, right, right. There is no interactivity then. >> So then is Neo >> the ideal video game? the ideal video game because you just turn on the auto battler >> the like the Socratic perfect video game or whatever it is >> finally out there somewhere in the >> a we did it >> auto battlers saved art >> be where you want to go a question worth asking is really why do you even care why are game developers so keen to be seen as artists to be >> um I don't know man >> it's [ __ ] annoying to work this hard and then someone walks up to you and says that's not art [ __ ] off it's just Okay, thanks. >> It's almost like a malformed way to phrase it. They're not keen on being artists so much as that that's just what they are because they're making things and expressing. It >> would be nice if you didn't say no you're not. >> They're keen on having their work recognized for what it is. >> Well, it's so [ __ ] weird if you did concept art for let's say an episode of Mandalorian and people like that's amazing and then you do it for the Mandalorian games like well that's not art anymore. You're like what? Why? And you're like you're not an artist. Stop talking. Well, yeah, but you got to remember he would say the Mandalorian isn't art because there's an explosion in it. >> Oh, sorry. >> Say something like that. It is art. It's just terrible. >> It's just shitty. >> Sufficiently non-dramatic explosion. Yeah. Means you can't be art. >> Like this is this is actually what I was arguing before. I think the he thinks that because you are asking to be seen as an artist therefore you cannot be >> pretty much >> right like that's his argument here in this particular moment that by saying I want to be seen as an artist look at what I'm creating it is art you can't be because you want it too bad right like I okay so this is my own tank I guess where it's like look you don't get to be mad that you're famous right none of us in this this call chose to be uh YouTubers accidentally, right? We create content, we edit it, we >> don't choose to do anything accidentally, >> right? We put it out there. We put it out there. And yet ours would somehow be more wholesome and and more uh uh artistically meritful because it's not interactive. >> There's no way he thinks that YouTube videos are art. There's no way. He'd have a new set of arguments for that. There's in no way, shape, or or form does he think that YouTube videos are right. >> Put him in a room with high I get what I totally get what you're saying. if we were to apply the rules. It's just that once he moves over to YouTube videos, he'd probably even laugh at the notion that there's a conversation to be had about that. >> Okay. But a film nonetheless, right? Like we are doing it purposefully. We're making the the option if I write a book. If I took my my video script and put it into a book, trust me, book >> we're we're on the same page. I'm just saying he wouldn't give a [ __ ] Like that's that's his problem. And and then of course it probably would run into trouble if it's like, "Yeah, but what about like, you know, animation that gets posted on YouTube?" Like, how do you feel about that? But then again, maybe he doesn't really have a high view of animation as a as an art form either. >> Maybe he sucks. >> Yeah, it's hard to I feel like it'd be really hard to kind of predict what this guy thinks in a lot of ways. He's he's thrown in some weird curve balls. And >> I think he is unpredictable, but it is I'd say a big part of it is it's essentially what are the kinds of things that people generally perceive as being of greater like artistic merit. And instead of viewing it through that lens, he's just viewing it as like yes. anything that doesn't meet that typical threshold like the classics of literature or paintings that you would see in a museum or even films because you know pretty much nobody that's on the internet talking about movies would be old enough to remember a time when that would have been a controversial conversation about the merits of films compared to like stage plays. >> If it's sufficiently old as an art form then it counts as then the being able to cross the threshold to be considered art in his world is much much much much easier. the newer it gets, the hotter it becomes. >> I just I have such a problem with this idea that by being keen, I want to be seen as an artist. I want people to take me, you know, seriously as a journalist. I I want people to, you know, see when I I I got the CEO of a company [ __ ] fired. You know what I mean? Like, if I'm doing this, then clearly I am a a real quote real journalist. But by doing so and wanting that, by striving for that, clearly I have no no say in like that's crazy. That's such an a just a bad take among the greats rather than to just make great things. The whole games must be recognized as art push is purely egocentric. >> Yeah, but yours is the reverse. Games must not be recognized as art. That's also an ego [ __ ] Like why >> why can't you just be normal? I'm not egocentric to just be to to want justifiable recognition. >> Mhm. >> Ego I'm not an egotist because I want if someone uses my footage for me to get credit. I'm not an egotist for that. I think that's just fair. That's normal. >> And I personally have a bit of a hatred for this. Like video games get shhat on all the time as a medium and it doesn't help them grow or develop or change in a positive way if everyone's just going to be like, "No, that's just the slop media that little kiddies maybe enjoy. It's not art." It's just like cool. And it's crazy as well because if we just had some olds here, they could be like, you know, film went through this. You're using film now as like the [ __ ] you know, cudgel to hit video games down as non-art forms. >> I wonder what'll happen next. When will be the day where they say, I don't know, VR games that are fully immersive, that's slop, and that they're not video games that are true art. You know, they'll be the next layer or some [ __ ] I don't know. >> Mhm. either by people who want what they do in their free time to be externally legitimized or by the people who make video games who are demanding respect. The thing with demanding respect though is the act of doing so directly undermines any respect you might have earned. Yeah. >> Um well, but like you go >> for the most usually. >> How do you square that away when like you you say that the games also aren't art back in an era that's before this trend that you're observing that people are saying that they want their games to be like your criteria means that the the the sort of game makers of old also don't get any credit even though they weren't so actively pursuing it, right? Like your Miiamoto and whatnot. >> Yeah. It used to be, >> you know, you're not you're not saying anything like, "Well, look, all right, in in not pursuing uh my respect the old games on the SNES and whatnot. They earn my respect." It's like, "No, you still don't [ __ ] give any video game any credit for being art. >> This isn't even true." >> Yeah. Are they just collateral damage of your definition that you didn't think about, or is it like are you just like really earnest that none of them count? >> Like a family guy cut away. It's just a dude who's coding and then someone standing next to him going, "Um, you're not art. Okay. And your demand for respect kind of disqualifies it." And the guy just looks up at him like what? >> Huh? What? Huh? >> I'm just trying to express myself in a medium of interactivity and styism. I >> demanding rags. How' you get in my house? >> Need to ask yourself why it is that you even care about this. What? Why would any Why would they care? care that they express. >> It's pretty understandable to want to have your medium of expression be seen as legitimate rather than baby [ __ ] for babies. >> It means money. It means financial security and rewards, which means that you can keep doing it. It's meaning. It's recognition. We're social species. It's the kind of thing that we want. >> Kind of like loads of things. >> You make it so mercenary, Rag. >> Yeah. Hey, you made it sound so clinical. >> Oh, disgusting, which is art. >> No, no, no, >> no. Gay. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. Being gay is art. >> About very familiar with this >> to the stuff you find entertaining impacts you in any way. You don't have a horse in the race. I'd put my money on the fact that the >> I don't need a horse in the race. >> I'm a consumer. I'm I I do actually. I am a consumer in this space. So, >> I'm not saying I don't have a horse. I'm just saying >> I don't even need a horse to comment on this [ __ ] >> That's right. You don't >> you don't need one. This is the guy who spends >> he's got an entire video talking about when it is and is not acceptable to put a label on something. And now he's saying, "Well, why do you care?" >> Well, you care enough. You made a video. It makes no [ __ ] sense. But you seem to think that applying the label is important. So if you think it's important then and other people not allowed also to think that it's important. There's been plenty of artists who've been frustrated at people attempting to dismiss their craft as less that it is or not giving them the respect that by rights they think they deserve. Most of the time it's unearned, but sometimes it's kind of fair and right and accurate. Um, I think Timothy Charlemagne's example came up earlier when he's going around saying he wants to be recognized as one of the great actors. It's like, okay, you have to back it up, but I understand why you want that label for yourself. Sydney Poatier once got really annoyed by people constantly asking him questions about race politics in America and said look I'm an artist I'm more interesting than that he was entitled to do so because he was an artist he was also a very good actor and people weren't giving him the credit for it labels like you can most people do put way too much stock in what labels get applied to what things but you know when you yourself in this video are making value judgments in the form of labels which is what all of this video is then labels are important by the rules of your video so people are allowed to be annoyed when you put the wrong ones on them. >> I agree. And and like you could take it even further, right? Like you could make the the statement that oh, if we're saying that by virtue of wanting to be viewed as an artist or making money, Charles Dickens when he wrote a Tale of Two Cities, it sold really well. So therefore, A Tale of Two Cities cannot be art, right? Because he wasn't this starving artist out there. Uh it's just it's it is so incredibly provincial, right? There's the the whole take that he has here is just so incredibly it's provincial. >> The moment the video games can truly almost universally be recognized as art will come by accident. It'll be when someone is trying to make a truly great game and is unashamed of the medium. >> Bro, not great art. Make you have to. So, I have to be wanting to make great art, but I cannot be wanting to make >> How have we not done that already? >> These people already exist. >> You think that the guys who made Boulders Gate 3 are ashamed of the medium of video games >> or Super Metroid? Were they ashamed of the [ __ ] super? >> We're taking a specific sort of disposition of AAA movie game blah blah blah blah blah and extrapolating it out to the entire medium. And anyway earlier this was disqualifying because he said the definition of Oscar bait was similar to the way like some games attempt and strive too hard to be like the greats that inspire them and therefore could never be. Whereas now it's oh it'll happen when they just want to be great. What is it great without reference to anything else or great by reference? Every other sentence kind of collapses the previous one in this video which is not ideal. It so does. No, you're absolutely right because I mean like this very statement, it'll be created by someone trying to make a truly great game who's unashamed of the medium. Like forget the unashamed of the medium part. It's the trying to make a truly gay great game, which he had just previously said was the the sign of Oscar bait. It's just I I don't Oh. Oh. someone who doesn't want video games to be movies, who doesn't obsess over the medium and hold a ridiculous >> Okay, just to be clear, we are we are moving away from like like we're heading toward if if there's any commentary that's being had on games right now is that it's it's getting worse out there. Not that like if you were looking for a time where there was no shame, where they weren't trying to be movies and they were creating greats, you might want to like it's been it's done. It we did we that's that era definitely existed. Not to say that there's nothing being made today that could qualify on those things. I'm just saying like the idea that we're heading there right now does not I wouldn't have said that about all eras of gaming. I wouldn't have said our current era is the one where we're heading toward not being interested in being a movie where we're not interested in just getting awards, you know, where we're not ashamed of the like the just, you know, just saying just with some of the stuff that's coming out lately. That's all. >> Well, right. Yeah. I mean, absolutely, Mhler. Because then, you know, according to this, something where you're not obsessed with being a movie and you're not obsessed over the medium for whatever that means, right? Then your best game would be something back in the day like Adventure by by Robinette, right? Because it clearly isn't trying to be a movie. Um, and it has no obsession with the medium because the medium barely existed. And uh therefore, there you go. That's the best game ever. It's interesting as well. >> I just want to be just real quick. He was propping up the the [ __ ] out of Halo and it's like, dude, Halo was obsessed with Aliens like as a as a franchise, which is which is nothing but a cool thing. >> Halo has pretty plainly obvious film and novel inspirations, >> and that's cool. >> Pride and Prejudice. Yeah, >> nothing wrong with that. Just like Star Wars has had major influences. Nothing wrong with that. >> It's kind of like all art is derivative, you know? >> Yeah. Like no, if they have Marines, it's not like you go, "Oh, you're just trying to be [ __ ] trying to be a movie. Good job. >> Oh, you're not art. You are not art. I ordain that you are not art for doing art." >> Marines are action and arcade mixture. They're not close enough to that side of the pyramid to be art. >> There is there's another thing as well, which is so he's now saying that the key to making video games art is for video games to not be obsessed with other mediums and not be ashamed of their own medium. But earlier in the video, the reason he said that no video game yet rose to the level of up was because video games uniquely as a medium have interactivity. And that was the reason that they couldn't meet his earlier definition because that extra medium meant that there was another component which would fail or could fail and did fail. And that's what precluded them from being art. Interactivity is the thing he specifically said video games uniquely have. So video games as a medium made more they like they make more difficult art to the point where none of them has according to him. Whereas now it's oh no you just have to lean into what makes video games unique but earlier that was the thing that stopped them from being art in the first place. >> So the guy just has no internal definition. There's no consistency. There's nothing. He doesn't know what he's talking about. >> Yeah. >> Degree of reverence for it. It will be something like citizen king which as >> a ridiculous degree of reverence. So, by loving video games, you could never make a good one. >> It isn't >> unless it's by accident. >> Unless it's by accident, which of course you can't do because you need to be intentional. >> You don't need it to be intentional. >> You could theoretically accidentally make an incredible masterpiece. It's possible. >> Oh man. >> Orwell states is really only so good because he was entirely unaware of what he shouldn't have been doing. You got >> boring. You're boring. Boring. This is just the boring thing that people say about Awson Wells, >> you know. I think I benefit the rules. >> Well, yeah, but it's also annoying because there's plenty of [ __ ] game dev studios that would have had this same commentary depending on what because especially when games were a budding medium. What's the rules? Like, I'm not actually sure what the rules are. We're just kind of making something right now. >> Okay. But at that point, he had just said disqualified. >> The thing is, >> that's how he views it. He had just said that it would have been produced by somebody who didn't have reverence for the medium. Well, early games wouldn't have. Who wasn't trying to be a movie early games wouldn't have. And yet now, right, like it it is an absolute failure of an argument. It is a complete and total and and abject failure of an argument. >> Is it better to be a bad argument or not an argument? >> Ah, right. chances, didn't you? >> Simply by not knowing that they were impossible or theoretically impossible. >> Yeah. >> And of course, again, I had a a great >> Hard to believe that he's 16 years old in this interview. >> Wow. Yeah. >> The old age, not only in the real genius of my cameraman, but in the fact that he, like all great men, I think, who are masters of a craft, told me right at the outset, >> don't love his voice, though. Holy [ __ ] >> It's so good. that there was nothing about camera work that I couldn't learn in half a day that any intelligent person couldn't learn in half a day. And he was right. It's true. An awful lot of things >> of all, you know, of of every of you know the the great mystery that requires 20 years doesn't exist in any field and certainly not in the camera video. >> Well, then he'd say that for games, wouldn't he? And therefore, we can get the greatest out of games in just half a day. Masterpieces, if you will, art, if you will. I I think that that it is a disingenuous thing to pull that up because we were talking about a film shot in the early or late 30s and and early 40s, right? Because the film came out in like 1940 something, right? Early 1940. So like cameras at that point were were just a thing that you pointed. We didn't have, you know, uh uh films um you know, >> we were still discovering you were still kind of like it was a new medium. >> Yeah. Entirely figured out and explored. It was sort of like uncharted territory. >> It was only It was only a few decades old. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So like what is film at that point? Yeah. You can learn everything in a camera pretty easily. And you know arguably Yeah. You could do that about video games too back when people were coding them in their house and producing them and making you know these uh what we considered to be foundational games today alone in their room in a an afternoon. You could do that and you could do that in film too. back in 1940, 80 years ago. So, it is a terrible um you know, trying to to to suggest that that is the same today for for video game. It's just crazy because you couldn't do that with a film now, right? Like even when we're saying that people are are going out and making these great films like we're seeing with uh uh the YouTubers who are turning out and you know making your back rooms and your uh uh obsessions and your iron lungs and right like doing these with what I would argue is our our just taking a camera out there kind of things. They're not just doing it and learning it in a day. You can't do that anymore. >> No. >> Is that why he [ __ ] hates Odyssey? Because of Nolan's IMAX cameras? We still don't know why I don't know if he hates. >> I still don't know why it's out of TRIANGLE. I'M LIKE, WHY WAS IT OUT OF THE TRIANGLE? >> Games are not going to become art through a careful synthesis of what makes other mediums successful. Focus group testing and budgets of $500 million. It will be a team of like 50 people with a moderately sized budget whose goal is to make a moderately >> why even a moderately budget? But also I mean yes these exist but why even moderately sized? Why not no budget? >> What are we talking? >> It all exists. You are talking about the largest piece of of like entertainment. We can all make games and people do. You have mobile games. You've got you know massive AAA time. You have the whole spectrum. You have single developer games that make hundreds of millions of dollars. And then you have games with you know a thousand people that make zero DOLLARS LIKE HIGHGUARD. YOU'VE GOT THE entire spectrum. It's all there. You just don't know it. >> This is him having no Oh my god. I'm actually >> Well, I think he probably does. If if the point if that point was made and or if you gave him examples, he would probably say, "Oh, no. Well, I I do know about those. >> The reason they don't factor into the argument properly is because he's not making an argument anymore and hasn't been for some time. He started off making one, halfway, moved to another, got halfway, contradicted with the third, got halfway. This is just words for the sake of words. >> Yes. >> I just realized that there is a game that actually I think elevates uh that includes gameplay mechanics, presentation that fits like sort of fits his description and it's like made by one I think it's made by one guy. I think Undertale fits this. I I don't know if anyone said it like the mechanics of that game where you could choose to kill someone or not kill them for the whole playthrough totally dictates how the game progresses and how you experience the endgame of that game. And >> it's just >> music written by a single person that has arguably become some of the most you know well-known music from the entire medium. >> Yeah, exactly. >> The characters, the writing. Absolutely. Mhm. >> Imagine the argument would be made that the visuals don't hold up cuz there's always going to be some weak link and it would be quantify how visual. Yeah. Like I don't know how exactly you want to make that >> determination argument >> but for that I would argue the pixel the pixelized version is part of the aesthetic is part of the decision-m into why that game is made in that way. So >> the choice intention matters. So if he only if he made the game a pixel Toby Fox, right? If he made that game as a as a like pixelated just for like budget reasons, then that would make it less of an art form because in >> less art form. Yeah. Yeah. Because >> Mhm. vaguely curious what this guy would make of Disco Allesium just because partially due to like the conversation around it and stuff is like that game has like the sophistication around it because it was made by like a person who wrote a book you know someone's actually presented with that format of like yeah like you can almost see the novel inspirations well not even mo I haven't played much of it but even like right away it's like yeah's a tough one to deal with on this >> based off of red and from the the creator like a novel was made in that universe that from what I understand unfortunately didn't sell very well but the game did really well and it's sad to stop that thing yeah >> we've seen that a lot right like we we saw Halflife was written off of a book too um we've seen games like the Tex Murphy series way back in the day those were all based off of books by Aaron Connor like like these books to game thing the pipeline where you are writing a book to make a a game that exists that's been out there for a long time. >> Lord of Ring Gollum is based on a book. >> That's right. That's pretty true. Yeah. A book by the same name based on like >> Yeah. Talking Lord of Ring Gollum. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And somebody in the chat brings up Clancy, right? Like there's an entire franchise that's based off of books. So like I I just I man, it's such a bad argument and it's such a bad argument on so many levels. And then of course he's changing the argument every >> behind it too. There doesn't seem to be any reason behind any of this. Here is why I think that this qualifies. This doesn't qualify. Here is why I think that this is a stipulation I hold. There's no there's no reasoning behind it. >> We say you didn't like the the egoism and the demand for respect and uh the qualification when they haven't like earned it or it's not it's just categorically not applicable. >> Um >> I just find that weird because >> it's not Halo 2. >> It's just so many artists that never would have been like I demand to be considered. they just make their thing and they're really proud of it that it's like you don't you haven't made art though like okay >> and in in this case as well like we are not people who are sitting here having made a video game saying hey we demand that our video game is recognized as art. We're people sitting here talking about games other people have made saying actually they probably deserve to be called art. So, it's not a rebuttal to say, "Oh, well, a demand for respect negates the respect you think you've earned." Because we're making the case on behalf of other people and on an art form that deserves to be recognized as such because of everything we get out of it and how much we enjoy it and how many of them we've played and for how many hours. This is this is a case of there there is no argument presented in the video to deny the definition of art to video games that could not also be repurposed to deny the definition of art to any other art form, movies, TV shows, whatever. Rewind far back enough >> conversation anyway >> and OG with his finger paintings and then some guy starts using an actual tool to carve. He's like carving not art. It's [ __ ] you do a tool. [ __ ] you. That's that's entertainment. >> Yeah, right. Like the introduction of tool versus hand. Well, you know, I made all of my art with my fingers, so it is more art. >> Yeah. Well, and that conversation probably did happen in some way at some point, but you know what I'm saying? And it's just like this just feels like another chapter and it's just embarrassing. I don't want to get past it already. It's like dude, games are obviously [ __ ] >> learn to club >> not to make something that other people will make it their entire personality to elevate to godhood. Almost every video game is so focused on aping the brilliant >> personality to elevate it to godhood. It is clear, okay, that this man just doesn't like or respect video games and nothing further. Everything that he says can be thrown away with just that. >> Right. Here's the thing. I don't like your video. So, is your video automatically bad if I don't like it? Because that is a video that's been made in the artistry of games. >> Well, I mean, I'm assuming this comes from the >> interested in the media. >> It reminds me of the Oscar bait part. So, I'm assuming this is to do with games that are trying to win the game award [ __ ] And he's like, I'm tired of this. This this isn't actual like expression. This is all [ __ ] just trying to appeal to awards or whatever. And it's like, okay, but that that represents what? Like less than 1% of games, >> right? >> Like I said, 80% of games that probably exist, and that might be a conservative estimate, are in that bottom left arcade tier of, you know, game that wouldn't even begin to be in the qualification for being art. >> But but even those games which are aspiring to win the video game awards will still be art even if they're terrible. They might just be really [ __ ] art because they're going for awards. That tends to be what happens. Doesn't make them not art, just makes them bad. >> Mhm. >> Rather than truly doing something different, compelling, and meaningful that is uniquely a game. I know I've been hammering on it for months now, but I come back to games like Spec Ops: The Line and The Last of Us, who everyone continuously praises as some of the greatest, you know, serious and artistic video games of all time or whatever, but really they're just movies masquerading as a video game. >> Ah. Ah. But what about the fact that Spec Ops actually like is interested in leveraging the fact that it is a video game in >> That's the whole point. It is using the immersion and the interactivity, the thing that this man immediately throws away as like the the thing that cannot be art in order to do it. He is doing the thing you want with that very game. He asked for a game that doesn't take itself as a movie but uses the the you know ability of a video game to give you a new and unique experience. And literally you're bringing up the one that does do that. There is a reason why people talk about boy. >> I feel like >> I mean it's also just it's going to poison his own well if he just focuses on spec ops line over and over again. You know what I mean? It's just like go check out some other stuff then. I guess >> give some cool indie games a go. >> Yeah, why not? >> You know, being like people keep calling these ones the the peak of gaming as an art form or something. Like what else do they say? It can't just be those two. I >> don't really like this as a game. Spec Ops is fine, right? Like I think it's not a great game, but to suggest that it doesn't use the medium that it's in in a unique way in order to actually have a conversation, right? Like it is making you have a thought. That's the whole purpose. I feel like that Gus meme where but this guy was like, "You hate The Last of Us cuz it's trying to be a movie. I hate it because it's shit." Yeah. Yeah. That's >> which can be entertaining, but it's not a video game you can consider art. And the people who do >> I I just don't agree. >> Well, yes, we we can >> allow too and we shall. We We can and we shall. So, >> sorry, man. That's just like until you can convince me that there is like a good reason to privilege the term like this. Yeah. I'm sorry. Just We had the the reason earlier triangle. See, it was the triangle. >> Oh, I mean in terms of essentially like functional benefit rather than like cuz I've given up on a logical underpinning cuz like the triangle isn't doing it for me. But >> the triangle doesn't work. >> Bit nitpicky, but all right, fine. The triangle's not working. >> Also, we're coming to the end of the video at this point and I still don't really know the relevance of the triangle to begin with. It's I I don't know what that actually means. >> Why is the Odyssey outside of it? >> You'll never know. >> The Odyssey is [ __ ] and therefore not >> thinking I agree that the Odyssey is [ __ ] Yeah, I think >> Well, but there was space for the [ __ ] ones. The >> No, it seemed like a deliberate decision which would then suggest that there is a fourth axis to the triangle. >> Well, that it's so >> Maybe it's just such a masterpiece. It beats the triangle. >> It's a pyramid, not a triangle. We just can't tell what that fourth one is. >> Lying. It's interesting to me how little respect there seems to be amongst the people who make these games for the unique strengths of interactive storytelling. >> This is a point that that get that gets to be made by people that don't make videos called you're wrong. Video games are not art. >> Yeah, >> you kind of just made this point. >> And again, I think Undertale is like just it fits that definition you want. It's the interactivity. You choosing not to kill or kill people throughout the game affects how you experience the ending. So >> Underminently, too, >> Undertale is fundamentally an exploration of like a player's interaction with content. Like that's what the game is trying to do. It's like exploring a bunch of different takes on that. Like that's the whole point of the genocide route is like it's not fun. It's not enjoyable. There's not particularly much to get out of it. you're just like doing it because you can because that's how players interact with a lot of games is you have to do everything in the game because you can and that's a bit weird and that leads to insincere interactions within the game world and within its fiction >> which is interesting to explore and like everything I've said I guess just isn't art because I don't know again I have to assume it would just be the visuals don't hold up well enough to some arbitrary standard years. That's such a good Wait, wait, can I pause? That's such a good uh synthesis of Undertale. I'm sorry. I'm just got to glaze it a little. So, yeah, very well done. Yeah, >> just going back very briefly to to the earlier point, unless I am misremembering. So, he's now talking about games do not properly uh understand the unique strengths of interactive storytelling. Well, there are plenty of those that do because one of the things video games can do that no other art form really can is the the implementation of player choice and allowing players to shape the narrative and there's loads of games that do that. But earlier again, the reason that so many video games just or all video games actually are not art yet is that by giving players choice and by having interactive storytelling, you make it difficult to the point of being impossible to keep cinematography intact. I think that was the exact example he used earlier because the player chooses where to look. the player chooses where to move. So either this is a unique strength which games are not yet using or it is the thing that games have which precludes them from being art. But I don't really see any way it can be both. >> Yeah. No, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. And right like even if you were to take that and say okay well what then are are your option? We have examples of both. you have your, you know, beginner's guide or your Stanley Parable, which gives you ultimate choice and as much freedom as you can get and tells a beautiful story and is, I would consider quite artistic. And then you also have on the other side of that exact same spectrum, your visual novels, which is still a video game with interactivity, but boy, they've managed to figure out how to keep that cinematography in check, right? Like they we have all of this. The entire medium is there. >> Uncharted waters. Everyone seems to write them like movies and rely on the traditions of the past with >> veral. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah, that like the vast majority of games just are not they're just not like that. Like they have most games probably have a loose narrative to give some context to what you're doing. But that's >> just big city energy. Again, >> this shit's like fairly this shit's pretty current as far as I can tell. Like you you don't get to say this in like the era of Souls Hegman around like like the video game sphere. Those games tell their stories like in extremely nontraditional ways >> for better or for worse, however you want to feel about that. Their method of storytelling is like of a character that fundamentally you could not port it to another medium and tell the same story. If you were to like if you were to make an Elder Ring film or a [ __ ] Dark Souls film or whatever, you would have to tell a different story to the story of the player character or you would have to fundamentally change the way the player character or whoever they are characterized as the protagonist in that film interacts with the world around them. >> Yeah. >> Also, I I just saw Holy Lord, let the video play. Welcome to every frame of pause. It's It's already happened in Well, I don't know if it's happened in this stream, but if if we ever pause prematurely and then they say something that renders something that we said obsolete or moot, we recognize that and we point it out. It happens every once in a while, but not not very often, but every once in a while. >> There's a problem with not doing that. Well, there is also maliciousness that comes into it. But there is a problem with not doing that, which is that if you get slightly carried away with the language you're using and don't pay particular attention to the argument that you're making, then you can lose your point very quickly. One of the advantages to pausing is that we can take it by clause. And unfortunately, these clauses don't really mesh together particularly well. >> No, we are we don't hear videos. We we actually listen to videos which is the downfall of some videos is that they are actually listened to. >> However, though um it says tell Nick to stop pausing Nick. >> God damn it, bro. >> Wait, what? >> We were we were gonna we were gonna we were going to mention something, but >> I mean I wasn't going to say now the chat's pointing it out. I think it's the cat's out of the bag. The secret there. >> That's it, man. Sorry, dude. waters. Everyone seems to write them like movies and rely on the traditions of the past with very few exceptions. This is the reason why I mention the woke stuff way less than a lot of other reviewers might. The way I see it, it's really just indicative of more trend chasing, which is the games industry's biggest sin. What can be said of force diversity? >> This just took a turn. >> Yeah, I did not expect I feel like when this has become a different video. >> What the [ __ ] did this have to do with the first 11 minutes? >> Hello. I mean, I think the biggest sin was like the guy who was drinking the breast milk in that one video game studio, but I mean, I guess the work is bad, too. >> Did that really happen or was that spread? >> That was Blizzard. Yep. >> I don't know if that was part of it yet. >> Can be said of the way that games are written, the way that they are made graphically. All of it. It's all non-stop trend chasing. If the current political trend was to make your whole game pink for good boy points, you could be very sure that every single game would be pink. >> Every Come on, man. every game and also this is true. If someone said like I'm being hyperbolic, I mean like over 50%. I'd still be like, dude, come on. >> Over 50%. That would be absurd. Also, if you're just saying, well, it kind of just occurs somewhat in in that realm. It's like, HOW ARE WE WHY ARE we singling out video games rather than also >> there's an enormous market filled with all kinds of experiences and it just feels like we're focusing on major budget, major studio stuff. >> Movements within paintings. Why would we talk about mar this this marathon, isn't it? Why? Like, who cares about marathon? >> The entire theory behind bisexual lighting is that people do this for a reason. >> Legacy media says jump and video games say how high. If we're going to evaluate >> Yeah. I mean, this applies to [ __ ] wait. This applies to every piece of media. This is not just games. Films do this. Books do this. >> [ __ ] weird. >> Why are we Why are we even bringing this up? I don't understand. >> Market attempting to fill a demand. Why have we stumbled through a portal to a different dimension? >> Suddenly, it's the [ __ ] woke. >> Did you want to stay in the old dimension? >> Well, >> yes. >> The triangle. >> Wait, video games artistically. Their biggest issue is insecurity over the very fact that they are video games. >> You can again, you can say this for all the mediums. As far as I'm concerned, >> there would not be this need, >> especially like the state of other mediums. For example, comics. Like with everything I've heard from Ask and Gary, it's a disaster in terms of who's in control of a lot of the major comics now and that they do hate being comics >> to hide behind their >> Well, and like I fully agree, right, that you should love the medium you're making, but the argument that nobody does is just wrong, right? Like beyond being stupid because like it is intellectually dishonest, but like beyond that, it's it's just wrong. Of course, people who are making games love making games and they love games and they care about games. You wouldn't spend years. Video games take six years on average to make. You don't do that if you hate a thing. >> Tell you what, even even the people making the games that we might think are bad or are like poor displays of artistry. There's probably a nonzero number of people involved on those projects who care a lot about what they're doing. >> Wasn't that The Last of Us 2? The leaks came from people who hated where they were taking the story. They were like, "No, no, don't do this >> cuz they cared." >> Absolutely. Just what a a Oh, man. Right. Like >> it's so hard to argue against a moving target. And maybe that's why he writes this way, but like >> we're shooting. >> I mean, it's just complete load of nonsense to lump an entire [ __ ] medium into this sort of like behaviorable behavioral games are like five popular ones. >> Like it's just easily full. Like it's >> look and I get it. You don't like the Sony movie games. That's fair. I don't like them either. >> It's just a It's a particular critique on a particular type of game. Also, it's not every game. >> So, so he's focused on critiquing maybe uh Sony movie games as not art or trying too hard to be movie films, right? It's it's not for the whole game. cuz like we we just I I just pointed out Undertale. I'm sure there's another game that fits his criteria and it just destroys his premise. So I don't understand. >> It's also beyond that, right? Like even beyond that, let's go back to the core thing which is they're not art. You can have plenty of woke things that are very art. You can have plenty of I I mean Nazis made good art, too. There's pl on both sides of the world here. >> Don't point Don't point out how [ __ ] cool their uniforms look. Jesus Christ, Morardi. >> I am as leftist as you can come. I barely fit in politically with with half the people on the EFAP crew. Like it. And yet I'm still here talking, right? Like so >> you're the most purple triangle >> known leftist, >> right? So, like when it comes down to it to to suggest that you can't have, you know, what does this [ __ ] have to do with it? You can have perfectly woke art and it's still [ __ ] art. >> Yep. >> Mhm. >> It's not like a It doesn't make you look bad or weak. It's not like some sort of weird concession against any argument or positions you have. It's weird that he's treating it like it is. >> I agree. >> Just say it's [ __ ] art. >> Yeah. feel mother's skirt with the over reliance on film tropes. There would not be the need to seem inclusive and woke because some Armenian chick said so and they don't want to be rad over the coals in the press. There would not be the >> Again, I just don't this this >> I did not hear rape right there. I did not hear over the coals. >> Raped over the coals. Um, but Armenians raping over the >> There's no, this would be [ __ ] to say that that games have to deal with this and not everything else in cultural push and pull is everything. It's not just games. >> Constant cope of we made a bed on purpose to show you how deep we really are. These are symptoms of insecurity, which is why I am way less interested in talking about them than perhaps other people are. Whenever you hear modern developers talk about games, they seem to approach it like engineers. They always talk about the how. Um, >> I understand what he was saying. I think >> I mean >> in terms of how in like the way in which things are achieved because like if you watch commentaries for films or TV shows, they they do that [ __ ] a lot as well. >> Most of the Lord of the Rings appendices are >> we talked about this on other streams like behind the scenes have gotten shittier over time. A lot shittier because they're all marketing. Actually, a good reference for this would be the um the House of the Dragon behind the scenes was always very frustrating because they were talking about things that made it seem as though they were trying to score points, rewards, and [ __ ] Then you watch the Night of the Seven Kingdoms ones and it's like, "Oh, we're back to normal." Everyone's just talking about how awesome the characters are, how much fun they have filming it, and all these different ideas they had, and it's like, "Yay, much better." And you're like, "What's the difference then?" It's like, well, it's it's about, I guess, intentionality or whatever, which may qualify them differently in some kind of triangle. I just don't know why the [ __ ] we're saying games are the ones that suffer on this front when everything does and that it doesn't disqualify you from being art to have these like problems. >> Yeah, >> we use this technology to render this at this degree of fidelity or the world is unprecedented in its size. All of this just works. >> Yeah, that's not a great example, is it? Like of the people at the the core doing all the kinds of development is like Todd Howard like Yeah. You know, like the Halo Studios video we watch. Like, are any of them artists? Like, yes. >> Yeah, they're bad artists. >> A lot of them are. >> It's not. I'm not kidding. And it's our biggest one yet. It is four times >> and glitches do not make not art. >> Yeah, >> it's glitchy art. All you've shown is that art can be glitchy. >> Is Jackson Paul a [ __ ] artist then or no? >> All right. Okay. We can maybe like we got to draw. We got to draw a line somewhere. Damn it. >> Fallout 4 and of Fallout 4. And this time it features all new rendering, lighting, and landscape technology. It allows us to have 16 times the detail and even view distant weather systems across the map. >> I don't even like the points can be glitchy. >> It's like [ __ ] up and broken. It's like Yeah. >> Yeah. entry. >> Why is this even relevant to anything that we've been talking about for the last like >> he spent 12 minutes establishing that if art is broken then it's not art? >> It doesn't mean >> as well as making other statements. That's like the problem even even beyond that one. There's a lot of other statements that don't really complement or sort of >> uh prop up this this seemingly core thrust of the video. >> So if we break a statue that statue was never art anymore. Yes. Um, we unharmed >> all the broken statues that are on display with all of the color stripped from them. >> Yeah. Know, uh, when Banks, you know, painting went through the the the shredder stopped being art, right? Wasn't art anymore. Probably was never art, right? That's the problem with this kind of an argument. And like I don't disagree that, you know, Fallout 76 isn't exactly a good game, right? Like I don't enjoy that thing. But I would never suggest that it didn't or that it wasn't art. Um it may not be good art. That is a very different thing. And and to suggest that you know subjectivity and objectivity are the same thing is just such a bad uh man. >> But it also bluring the boundaries here between art. Is it that art is art because it's intended as such or is it that art is art because of the result? because earlier you might have got the impression that intent was a large part of it. But this argument here relies on purely the result and the intent is irrelevant to that. So it's one of the first things I was looking for from this video was just to get any sense okay if we're doing a thing video games are not art. One of the fundamental foundational questions what your definition of art is and where the place of intent in that is but this video seems to have contained both of those things. that this is just a a bad result, but you've just been told what the intent was. So, if it's intent, then it's still art. But if intent isn't relevant, then it's not art. But then the whole point of the earlier part of the video now is redundant because they've kind of relied on intent at that time. >> But then if you intended to do it, right, clearly you're just a sellout, which is clearly what he was saying with the Oscar bait and and so on. So like even then intention can't be a part of it. Oh, I built the coliseum. Well, you intended for people to see that it was great. It's trash. That's I mean >> and like that just leaves us doing like fourthdimensional [ __ ] super chess to determine like to avoid making like really simple determinations like this is bad, >> right? >> I I don't that that's really the fundamental thing for me is like we're doing so much work here. We're establishing so much [ __ ] that we're going to have to do so much explaining of to every person we talk to about this ever >> to gain what? >> We don't achieve anything in terms of like classification. And by privileging the term art, all we really achieve is like now we need to find some other word to fill the gaps left by what we would be using art for before as like a general little term that isn't necessarily privileged in that way. So like what's the point? What's the point of any of this? >> Out of curiosity, because there are like concept artists and graphical artists and 3D sculptors and stuff who are like just like literally make the assets for video games, >> does that mean that you can have someone that he would admit is an artist who is working on something that ultimately is not art as a product as a whole? What else are you going to call someone who like paints landscapes for video game scenery perhaps as like >> they would be an artist but the project they're putting it in is not art. >> Oh, but is their own work art? Is the thing itself art? Do we get granular? Are we allowed? >> Yeah. Yeah. So by producing the painting so the textures in the video games aren't the music in the video games also aren't >> but the game itself cannot >> together suddenly it's art >> the sum is less than the parts of its whole as they say >> there is very little discussion of the why which is core to any form of art it's the feeling part >> I would argue as a video essaist on YouTube there's a lot of discussion about why it's kind of what I I I don't know what you're talking about. >> Well, bro just said that that's the case. He's just decided that's the case. That no one has >> They're talking about the [ __ ] functionality, form, fidelity. They're not talking about the why behind anything. It's like, you just said that. That doesn't make it true. >> If if you go and watch any of Hakita's commentary for Ultrakill, cuz there's like a few different streams or whatnot of him like playing through what of the game exists up to that point and like commenting on it. It's like a lot of it is focused on why like why certain choices were made. Like very early on he talks about why he like I think it was he like made a gap slightly less wide because a bunch of play testers were attempting to like they they didn't understand exactly what was asked of them in terms of maneuver even though it was very simple because something about the terrain was misleading so he changed it. So very simple why there that's being solved >> that that's I think probably a to howy definition of why. I don't think that's I think the one he's going for here is the sort of the broad thing he's going to say like it's about your feelings. It's not the cuz the why in terms of closing gaps to make players understand travel better is kind of a howy definition of why. I think what he's going to be talking about is like there's not enough like appreciation or that people in game development don't talk enough about the the spiritual why. Why is it that they make this as a work of art? And to that, I'd count under there's actually way too much of that um because it's so easy to do and it makes you sound big and grand and important and actually absolves you of the responsibility even to make anything good. A lot of the that Halo thing we watched last time was why and it was all why are you doing this? Well, we want to uphold the the terrific legacy of this wonderful storyried franchise. It's so important to us that we remain in touch with our uh customers. Everybody wants to see a brand new brilliant Halo game. And the why of what we do is that we are giving everybody what they love so much and say you're just talking yourself up. This is just ego stroking. Why conversations too easily lapse into ego stroking. I'm more interested in the how because the why is then kind of assumed. If you assume the why of what you're doing, then you're not talking about like you your grandness and how how inspired you were in making this artistic decision. You're saying, "No, take that for granted. I've made something I'm proud of. And this is how we did it. The how was so much more interesting and less assy than that. >> Wow. >> But why? >> Why? >> Not to undermine. Very good. Uh good points made. I I believe we're we're coming to the end of this. This is climactic. >> These programmers may have very high IQs and know everything there is to know about C++. The writers may have experience. I resent the [ __ ] dismissal of like the knowledge of an entire coding language as like, oh, that's just technical. Who gives a [ __ ] It's like, oh, >> damn, dude. That's a language. That's like a way of expressing yourself. You don't know anything about it. So, you just dismiss it as like, it's you do you, I guess. Like, you may you may sound and this may sound alien, but if someone's obsessed with drawing and then someone's like, I can paint. It's like a paintbrush. How will I not use a paintbrush? Hollywood spell language without L so get >> whatever >> or language there's a W in there so I win >> but no amount of credentialism is going to >> how I feel >> create something good when you're missing the point entirely the reason games have yet to become art >> point is like and and the point is combining everything doesn't make it art is just a stupid >> I think he's about to give his actual thesis here >> all right >> okay okay >> would wager is because they are made by people who want you to call them artists but WHO ARE NOT. >> I [ __ ] KNEW IT. >> It just comes down to the whole ego thing. Like these people want to be known as artists but they're not real. >> Why do we even waste time with all of that then? >> Trying He's trying to rationalize it when this is just feels. He's just upset. He doesn't want >> Why do we do the triangle? Why do we mess around with that triangle and all of that? >> So that he doesn't come across as just like a >> No. The reason why it's not on is because they wanted something. There we go. >> Okay, cool. I learned so much. >> I mean, you know, I just What can you say is like your vendetta against a handful of people who make games you hate, you've now taken it out on an entire [ __ ] industry and medium and everyone who's involved in them seems a little bit you would think past like the second layer of this or so, you would think this is all way too complicated for what's essentially a pretty simple sentiment to express. He's he's right he's he's at the doorstep of preaching to the choir if he had just said you know major studio high budget games are often soulless or some [ __ ] just just some variation of that but now he's just said basically as an extension this applies to all of gaming and has done >> for all of like for its entire existence and hopefully one day they won't be and you're like what the [ __ ] what are you >> it's not even that bad video games are bad art it's that no video game is art even the best video games that ever been made are not art according to this video. >> And also bear in mind we went beyond games. There were a whole bunch of movies that were considered not art as well, including documentaries. A >> lot of collateral damage in this video. >> Cutting a wide net here. We're dragging it a lot. Like when Mr. Burns used all of the recycled stuff to dredge up all the the whales and [ __ ] and turn him into a mulch. >> Wow, what a great video. I learned so much. Consider me unconvinced. Shockingly, um I think that video games are still art. If anything, this is reinforced. I think video games are arter now. Even more >> art. Uh all I have gained from this is that this individual should try playing some games outside of like AAA sphere. Try and find some some cool video games to play. >> I don't know if that would work though. This is the problem cuz this video is built such a mess of half arguments that no video game can possibly satisfy. He'll just be able to turn to one of the half arguments and say, "No, it still matters." Even if it's contradicted by a later half argument, he'll still be able to say, "Well, no, because this video game has player movement in it, so cinematography is broken." It's like, right, okay. Um, but this video game has player movement, and that's really good, but it's not art because the creator wanted it to be art. Okay. Like, there's nothing. You can't win. He's created this mess of unfalsifiable assertions and I don't even know what his definition of art is, which is bad cuz it's the whole it should be the whole [ __ ] point >> cuz it needs to seem to have like this really forthright and involved narrative. Like I don't think Rainorld's game I keep coming back to I guess but like I don't think Rainworld would necessarily like fit the bill because that game has a very simplistic actual story. It's it's of the Dark Souls vein of storytelling where there's a lot going on in the background as like set dressing and historical narrative elements, but the actual story of what you play is really really simple. So, I think that game is just right out even though it's like a clear it's very very clear proof of the kind of thing games can do artistically that is not really available elsewhere because they have access to you in an interactive way. >> Yeah. Yeah. And right like I feel that we came at boy what a journey because we came at this really >> I think fairly right because >> I was willing to go into the argument of whether or not you know intentionality and dropping a camera right like we had that and boy it just comes down to this man >> like what did we tolerate the triangles for if this was the conclusion >> we ended up what was the triangle We had one of the triangles for >> if if the triangles are going to be inconsequential, then why a triangle? >> Do we tolerate the triangles? >> Why not a pentagram or or you know, we're tolerant people? >> Video games are satanic. >> What's next? What is what's uh what's next? Next about wraps up that one. Um which means we're going to be losing to the to the fate of sleeping, I suppose. Perhaps uh Theo is is going to be exiting. Thank you for joining us. I don't know if we'll be seeing you again, but uh on the reverse side, I don't know, but >> maybe try to pop in sometime tomorrow. We'll see. Uh yeah, it's been a lot of fun. >> Oh, yeah. Tomorrow. Yeah, >> I guess today, huh? Um yeah. Uh good luck with the rest of the stream. >> Well, thanks very much for having me on >> and happy anniversary everyone. Goodbye. >> Thank you. >> Enjoy. Byebye. Thanks for reminding me. Thank you very much. >> All right. Bye. >> Bye. >> Watching your career with great interest. >> I believe uh weekend is this your your your stop as well? >> Thank you very much for joining us as well. >> So, thanks for having me, guys. And uh congratulations. >> Oh, sorry. >> Did you say you have to go to church? You need to pray after this. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Cuz it's cleans. Now, now listen, God, you you were there. I I didn't agree with the video. I was I was speaking against it. I wasn't on the video side. >> They Waller forced me to watch this triangle of [ __ ] Anyway, >> triangle. >> It wasn't me. >> Eap, congratulations. Like eight years. That's [ __ ] impressive, guys. Uh, thank you for having me. >> Thank you, dude. >> If I could, if I if you're still up in like 10 hours, maybe I could drop by. We'll see. >> Oh, yeah. Just ping me. We will We will be here in 10 hours, for sure. Don't worry. Oh, yes. >> The will be here tomorrow. >> See you, dude. >> Have a good one. >> Byebye. >> Well, well, um, >> away the triangles. >> Am I Sorry. Was there anyone else jumping off at this time or was are we all still Are we staying? I think we're all I don't just speak if you >> I think I'm staying. >> Okay, beautiful. Um, >> hang out a little longer. >> Oh, boy. because we're about to about to jump into something completely different, if you will. Uh just in here. And yeah, so you know, we've done a lot of gaming, you might say. And uh >> we're gamers. We're hardcore gamers. >> It would only make sense to have >> hardcore >> something of a gamer god join us. Um but also dark hour. Hello there. >> Hello. Hi. >> There he is. That's what I meant by gamer god. Hello. >> Hello there. >> Hi everybody. I just want to thank you guys. Like we finally answered the question what art is and I feel far more media literate after watching that. >> Oh yes, dude. Thank you. >> Thank the gods. Well, uh, like I said, something completely different. Something completely different. What would that be? Well, there is something that happened that I did want to save for the anniversary. It would seem there's a big old movie coming out this year. Don't know if you guys have heard about it. It's where they take everything you've ever seen on a screen and they clash it together in a big explosion. >> They're calling it Avengers Doomsday. Not Odyssey. >> I love Avengers and superheroes. >> We don't talk about the Odyssey. It's outside the triangle, bro. Like, why do you How many times do I have to tell you? >> Legitimately, I want to know. I just want to know. I just >> ask him. Maybe he's got a Twitter. You can ask him in a tweet. >> Just somebody ask him and tweet me. I need to know. >> Oh man, it's going to drive him insane. >> Why is Odyssey not in the triangle? That's all we want to know. >> WHY ISN'T IT IN THE TRIANGLE? >> That's the best. >> Is it an orange triangle? >> Well, um, it's been discussed on a couple different streams, okay? And we have in the past engaged in something of a a little look see, a preview, if you will, of what stories may end up looking like. And let's just say there are several sources for what the story of Avengers Doomsday is going to be >> and we're going to talk about it, okay? Because I have looked at some of these sources, collected them up, and filtered them down to get us a nice little story. >> And we can just pretend for the sake of this. I made all this up none of it's real. It's probably not going to happen. We did this with Game of Thrones. We've done it before with that's like one of the earlier examples, but it happened. Multiverse of madness. I don't know if anyone remembers when they first had some leaks and they were like, "Oh, Professor Professor X is going to be in it and he'll just be killed. Reed Richards will be in it and he'll just be killed." And I remember being like, "What do you what do you that that's >> No, no, no. >> You will die for suggesting such horrible storytelling." >> So, before we get started with this like media breakdown, are we going to go burn down the angry video game nerd's house just to set the stage or >> um Oh, I see what you're saying. That's that's like tonally and thematically appropriate though. The problem is we're moving so far away from him. A lot of people in chat don't even know who that is, >> right? >> Like Gary, do you know AVGN >> somewhat? >> See, he's like one of the most hip dudes we've got on this panel. So I don't think if he doesn't know >> um >> Well, whose house would be hypothetically burned down? Like who's like the the modern king? >> Oh, critical drinkers getting hit again. >> Oh, it might be. >> Oh, that poor guy. Sorry, man. Sorry I had to come to this. >> Um, so I'm going to I'm going to leave the uh the old trailer playing. All right. So, people in the watch together, if you want to just mute that so it doesn't annoy the [ __ ] out of you. >> Um, >> what if I want to be annoyed, though? >> Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, you could do that, too. >> Well, that's intentionality, which means that this is this trailer is art. This trailer is more art than Dave Sex, if you think about it. >> Oh, boy. Will we be discussing whether or not this [ __ ] leaked? >> Is this the first trailer or the second trailer? I'm sorry. >> First one. Oh my bad. >> Oh, being old. It's >> Oh, am I going to die in this movie, too? >> So, like I said, multiple sources for this. We'll go through piece by piece. And those of you in chat, you're not ready for this if you don't know this story cuz a lot of people know that there's leaks and people even interested in leaks maybe not have actually looked at them. Couple of things been said on some different streams. This is a streamlined like take on the story and I honestly for me I'm curious if you you feel similarly on this seems to me this is probably 99% true. >> The problem is that a lot of the time like whenever someone goes on Reddit and there's like a you know a a leak that's sort of presented in in a like dot point form or uh or just you know just sort of paragraphs running through it. A lot of the time you look at it it's like this sounds stupid but then like as it turns out because I remember Superman there was one and it's like dude this seems like terrible and then that was the movie more or less. Um, this is >> we went over the ones for Rise of Skywalker, right? >> Rise of Skywalker. I remember that the Marvels, there was one where it was basically all the way up until the third act was basically 100% accurate cuz that's when it starts to get interesting as what changed at some point. Um, it unfort Well, a lot of the time this [ __ ] just turns out to be like true. Like that's too many people involved in these projects to not have leaks at this point. The rule of thumb is the dumber it is, the truer it is. >> Yes, that's the thing. When there's weird read that >> with Game of Thrones ending, it was like there's a boat that has Varys, Missande, and loads of main characters on it. It crashes. They all get beached except Mande who swim like floats away and gets captured and then taken to King's Landing where Daenerys will try and get it back and then she'll just get her head chopped off in front of her and that's when she goes mad and kills everybody in King's Landing. I remember reading all that and being like, "No, >> no, no, no, no, no, no." >> Promise that the more that this happens, the more that that goes along cuz I remember the Superman one. I was like, "Dude, this like yeah, this will be what it is." Like, like when it's just like of Yeah, it will. It will. And then it was. >> So, yes, like there's kind of nothing at this point that I could hear that would ever make me go like, nah, nah, it's too crazy. A big problem actually that way. I don't know. >> Big problem is a lot of the announced cast, a lot of the imagery for like just everything in marketing unfortunately lines up with basically all of the leaks. That's usually what makes it interesting is that when it starts to um and and you know the the notable thing is cuz sometimes there might be a trailer and then there's you know some some leak and then someone could obviously be like well maybe they saw what was in the trailer and then they've come up with stuff to fill the gaps but then when other stuff comes out the second trailer or more stuff and it's like well wait a minute this like lines up it's like oh >> all the screenshots and the trailer bits >> is the trailer loudly looping for you guys. No, turn it down. Turn it down. >> We muted it. >> Nick's over HERE LIKE, "GUYS, ARE YOU TALKING about the >> so >> I saw Gary?" >> I I remember the first time I watched something on YouTube. >> It is confusing. So, the funny bit is the Sorry, go ahead. >> No, go on. Go on. >> I was going to say the funny bit is the the amount of lengths that Marvel supposedly takes to to keep these things from leaking. Like, not giving the full scripts to actors to the point where they don't even know what the hell they're acting in. Yeah. >> And then the full plot gets out anyway. >> Is hilarious. That is funny. >> Like I said, I've seen three different versions of the full plot released. Some of them mention some things that the others don't, but they're not it's not in the way of like, oh, that's completely different thing. It's just, oh, that person thought that was worth mentioning and this person didn't. Like, is it just >> Yeah. It also might be one of those things where everyone's being given leaks to see if they could find the who it is and plug it, but everybody's leaking everything, so it doesn't matter. So, they're just like, "Okay, we can't figure out who's saying what." >> Yes. >> So, we we we begin. All right. Just think think of all the wonderful stories you've already had in phases four and five. Oh gosh. >> All right. Done. >> Yes. Um >> the thing that they're taking, you know, out of everything that's been set on the table, all the characters and plot lines, we're taking multiverse incursions. That's what we want. We want that for our movie. That's going to be a major spine to the whole story line, which you might think is a horrible idea considering incursions have different rules in every single movie and that Michael Waldron had no idea what he was even doing when he introduced them. But that's where you're wrong, kiddo, because this is going to allow all kinds of wacky and fun things to happen. So, the multiverse, it is currently littered with incursions because the MCU being 616 and the X-Men universes being 1,05005 I think that one is. So, from now on, I'm just going to call them the MCU X-Men universe. I could even say Fox X-Men, but you got it. Um, and uh, because those two universes have interfered with the multiverse too much. It's like crashing apart now thanks to all their [ __ ] So, think about Endgame, Deadpool, Wolverine, No Way Home, Multiverse Madness, Days of Future Past, all of these films are now considered events in which they were causing uh, incursions. So, >> uh, even though all of them were different rules and different like context and everything cuz Days of Future Pastime travel is not the same as Endgame travel. Nope. >> Not at all. >> Sorry. >> Maybe I'm misremembering what an incursion is. I thought an incursion was when the particular universe that you are in, if you are not from that universe, is going to explode. >> It's one version of of an uncurs, >> right? But is this is the film then going to rely on the fact that there's been lots of multiversal jumping? Does that just mean that other >> Are you watching the trailer as you're speaking? randomly. >> No, I I'm already beyond confused with how this is going to work. >> Something that I feel like it should just be something that people keep in mind is like obviously none of this was the intention. No, >> it's it's to think >> Kang was and then of course you've just got other it's like you know Multiverse of Madness which was the movie that was about introducing incursions had a character that could travel that was described as having the unique ability to travel between multiverses who so far >> is where did she go? Not only that, but apparently Doomsday is largely about finding certain people in certain places. And she can teleport open portals directly to any individual she wants at any time as much as she wants. >> Except her mums. >> Yes, that's too difficult. >> Got killed by bees. >> That's the bee universe. You can't open it on there. It's too complicated. But >> despite their good intentions, the multiverse is now in jeopardy due to all of those decisions in all of those movies. >> Now that's our like world as they say. Oh boy, what a what a great start. Our our prologue, however, in chat, I know some of you have heard about this. We begin in the Remy Spider-Man universe, and you might immediately be like, "What? Why? Why? Why? Why?" >> Oh, no. >> Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? And you're like, "Oh, don't worry." You're going to see um this this is this is uh I've I've gotten from different sources, right? You're definitely getting Toby Spider-Man. That's pretty much all but 100% confirmed. Um, some of these reports say that you get Doc O and Green Goblin 2, which is interesting to me because what's happening, and I don't know how this happened, and they're probably going to benefit from not explaining this at all, Spider-Man is fighting the X-Men to stop them from destroying his universe >> with a with a bomb with a multiverse bomb. Wolverine has been provided a multiverse bomb from Beast and he's trying to plant it. Tobey Maguire Spider-Man is trying to stop him. >> It's obvious. So obviously sort of a question you'd have immed cuz this is this is when you start thinking about just the obvious plot holes that it's presented with a like that a multiverse bomb and you're going to take it straight to the people that are going to try and stop you instead of just going >> instead of what would it be in the middle of the woods somewhere >> just to space what if we just went to Arkansas you know 30 miles west of Conway and we just left the bomb in the middle of the woods. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Sure. >> That that means that so they they've realized that like, oh no, this particular universe is going to blow up as a result of incursions. Not if I blow it up first. >> So the way this works is universes are clashing with each other and we we're watching the scene in which the Fox X-Men universe is about to clash with the Remy Spider-Man universe. >> What does that mean? >> OH NO, MY CHILDHOOD'S COMING RIGHT FOR US. SHOOT. YEAH. So both both universes normally in this situation would be destroyed unless one of them destroys the other first and then the other one is fine. >> Technology to create a multiverse that they couldn't come up with any other like anything. >> I can confirm Doc O is in it. I don't. So, something I was going to bring up is if you have the X-Men as a team and Toby Toby McGuire Spider-Man is [ __ ] great, but I don't know that he can take on Wolverine, Deadpool, Storm, Gan Gray, Beast, you know, if you roll out the entire team against him, I think he's going to have a bit but if he's got Doc O and Green Goblin with him, it's like I guess that's better. >> I understand that people think this is bad, but if if Doc O looks at the bomb exploding, goes the power of the sun gets eviscerated, I think that actually goes crazy. >> Good news. I want to see Peter slingshot himself from Doc O's arms, you know, like use it like a giant slingshot. >> Like he holds it. Yeah. Like a like um Yeah. He makes like a little V with his arms. Peter goes, >> "Tell you what, what a scene where I'm like >> while they're on a train. >> Hurry, >> hurry Toby McGuire, Spider-Man, prevent Hugh Jackman's Wolverine from killing you and your universe." You know, it's like what? And with the help of Doc Arc, like what is happening? >> One of the scenes like why are we here? What's happening? happening. >> If the X-Men are alive from the original Fox universe, why wouldn't regular Wolverine be there? Cuz Logan hasn't canotically happened yet. Why does it have to be like >> Well, I remember we talked about this with Deadpool and Wolverine, right? Is like how exactly does that squirt? Cuz like >> if that Deadpool has to be incursion causing, right? Cuz he's not from Deadpool's universe. >> Uh yeah. So Deadpool, I think, is specifically only going to be there because they need to have Deadpool like like on a meta sense for the writing, you know, cuz he's going to leave immediately to his universe after this. >> Well, I'm just not >> He's not going to go back to the Fox universe. He's instead going to go back to his Fox universe, if you if you understand what I'm saying. >> How many [ __ ] universes are in this house? There's a lot. >> Yes. Um, and yeah, Gary can help out where where needed, but uh, even with all the leaks, like this [ __ ] is hard to make. >> How many universes? >> Yeah, a lot. >> So, what are the universes for? >> There will be a fight. >> I don't know. >> And the fight will end art and Wolverine isn't. Sorry. >> The the fight will end with Hugh Jackman Wolverine having to sacrifice himself in order to ensure the destruction of Sam Ramy Spider-Man, killing himself and Tobey Magcguire Spider-Man. You and Mary Jane and the corpse of Uncle Ben will all be destroyed of Uncle Blitz. >> It's only one of the corpses of the many dead bins out there. >> Like the idea that it's like what a tragedy that Wolverine had to give his life in order to blow up Sabrini Spider-Man universe. >> I'd shoot a thousand Uncle Ben before I let this multiverse die. Uh, and this the thing we we've we've kind of known pieces of this forever. It just keeps coming keeps getting confirmed over and over again. It's one of the hardest to believe things ever to the point where I think part of my brain isn't going to accept this until I see it cuz it's it's just >> what the [ __ ] is wrong with you? Why would you ever >> this age, dude? Nothing impacts me quite like cannon fodder from my childhood that obviously has no future in this universe. >> And this is like first like intro, right? >> Yes. prologue. >> This is how it opens. >> You know how people get upset about the Hulk? >> Oh, sorry. >> I mean, they're trying to do that Loki thing from Infinity War, basically. >> Yeah. >> All of the things from all of the univerg Well, and it's hard not to read this in particular ways, right? Because a certain generation uh their heroes from the 2000s would definitely include like top of the [ __ ] rung includes Tommy Aguay, Spider-Man, Hugh Jackman, Wolverine. And you're like, "Do you want to watch this movie where they kill each other in the opening?" >> Yeah. >> You're like, "Uh, no." >> Oh, yeah. Couldn't. It's like, "Oh, you remember Indiana Jones? You like him, don't you?" Yeah. Well, he's now a depressed hobo. It's like, "Well, I'm not sure I really like that story." >> Star Wars. >> And with Star Wars, too, I wouldn't be surprised because you might even see them pop up in later trailers near the time as well. Look, it's got Huge Chapman's Wolverine and Toby Mcguire. It's it's got all of these people that you really like, they won't let on. And then people will go to the cinema thinking, "Oh, yes. Finally, my childhood is back." Oh, >> no, it isn't. >> Yeah. >> I really love Luke Skywalker. I'm so happy we get to see him get killed by an Adam bomb. >> Will this be the last Jedi of Avengers? >> I maybe maybe cuz >> you know that'll happen. And that, by the way, is supposed to be the shot of uh Patrick Stewart's Xavier in the trailer. He's looking at the samurai universe get obliterated and he's like, "Oh jeez, there it goes." Like, >> how do you know? >> This is a guy >> control people's minds. >> He's so powerful. There's so many things he can do. Why Why did they have to kill Spider-Man rather than sending Professor in every movie that he's in. That's >> comes back inevitably. I guess I'm going to survive this one. >> He's like, "God damn it. I just wanted to die again." >> He looks up. At least they only died once. Yeah, you know, >> I love my main characters for no reason. >> If Well, to be clear, Wolverine is climbing that number, you know, just get a few more in there. >> Um, so they're back. They come back, the the survivors, which I guess is Deadpool. Um, and the whatever X-Men went out there and came back, if they did, the X-Men mourn Wolverine, and they mention that Gan Gray and Storm both died stopping incursions on other universes. So, they're not neither of them people into the movie. >> Well, you'll have to weather. >> Those actresses are just simply too old now. We need younger ones. That's why they're going to die. >> Um, >> weirdly, all of the hot young X-Men survived the battles. It's crazy. But like, >> uh, so the X-Men are very sad about all of this, about detonating universes, but they make it clear it must be done or they die. >> There's no other way. >> Isn't very satisfying, to be honest. watch it like >> they can make multiverse ending bombs but there's nothing else that can be done. >> Yeah. Nothing else they're capable of doing. It's they're just sorry it's gone. >> Do you think they play the Avengers like like the Sombre version after like we had to kill. Just funny that we move past it, but like in terms of power scaling, a multiverse bomb like a bomb when detonated destroys an entire like I feel like we need to remind us the universe. Our universe is >> unfathomably big. >> This is more powerful than Thanos when he had the gauntlet. If he can >> beast made it in in his cave with a box of scraps. >> You know what's so funny? There's a throwaway line in No Way Home where they're like, "Uh, oh, I'm part of the Avengers." REALLY? WHAT'S THAT? It's like, "Oh, we're like a team." So, the first team that Tobey Maguire meets comes through, kills him, and destroys his entire planet. >> Well, uh, well, Nicholas, uh, will you be excited? Cuz I read the leaks as well. They said that Zod is going to show up, and he's going to say, "The Remy Spiderverse did not survive." >> Oh, man. So >> yeah, very sad. Very sad. And like I said, telling us that they're very sad about having to kill trillions and trillions of lives over and over again doesn't really help. It doesn't doesn't make it feel good to watch. You're just like, "Cool, that's great. As long as they survive, >> we're sorry." >> Yeah. So anyway, >> even have that conversation. >> Fair if they we have to destroy one universe to save our own. That's kind of drastic, but you can kind of say, you know, consequentially, I guess it evens itself out. If they have to go around destroying every other universe except their own, it's kind of it's a bit morally problematic. You might at least have a conversation like, "Yeah, how many trillions have to die?" >> Well, how the [ __ ] did they figure this [ __ ] out? What was the first one looking like when a universe started to clash into their own? They're like, "Quick, beast, make a multiverse bomb." >> Make a bomb. >> Yeah. And what was the trinity test for that? Like, yes, this univered. There is nobody here. We checked. It's all good. >> So, that's your like that that's your big old, you know, hook and teaser for the whole movie, but now we have to settle back into the to the main plot. So, you have uh the Fantastic 4 doing like a baseball game or something and then they go back to the the Baxter building cuz Doom has called them for a meeting and they're like, "Oh, we don't Doom. We haven't seen you in a while." Um, apparently Sue Storm doesn't really like him because he's a he's a mean representative of Latvaria, but he's like, "No, I got to talk to you about important stuff. if I've been doing an investigation into the multiverse. It's like, oh boy. So, of course, we as the audience like, wait, but isn't Doom evil? >> And the way this film is going to be played broadly is that that will be the twist for the heroes that they have to deal with him being the quote unquote, you know, villain. Um, I'm not sure entirely if that's going to have worked, if you will. Well, I I think I think uh because my mind is immediately going to Mysterio, right, where everybody knows that Mysterio is a comic book villain, but the marketing for uh for Far From Home presented it like he was going to be an ally. >> Well, yeah. And people did wonder the way they would play it is he would be a hero in Far From Home and then a villain later shows us that Doom is the bad guy. It shows Thor fighting him. It does in the trailers. I mean, I did not know because I knew nothing about Mysterio, so I had no clue going in. And you can't really play the same game with a character whose last name is literally Doom. Doom. >> Yeah. >> Well, but the thing is they really haven't. He's been marketed solely as the bad guy they have to defeat. But for half this film, he's going to be posing as a good guy. >> No, I think I get what you mean. It's like why would that be effective? Like why would that be >> Yeah. You know what what what does the audience gain from that of like the expectation from the marketing is that Dr. Doom is going to be the bad guy only for him to be not the bad guy for a bit. Like, >> oh, okay. >> I mean, you could say if if they want to try and play it like a tragedy and everybody knows that Anakin Skywalker is Darth Vader and then we watch three prequel movies with Anakin. >> It could partly be that. Well, yeah, cuz I mean, if the leaks are to be believed and basically everybody [ __ ] dies in the end or well, not dies, but you know, is defeated at the end. It's kind of Well, that would be nice, wouldn't it? But they'll never do it. Um, so it's partly that and also partly because they just they need some way of bedding Doom into this world and believably in a way that he's always been here because he hasn't been and we know he hasn't been. But they need to have this film have the Fantastic Four particularly treat him like someone they've known for years. So obviously if they went in with the understanding he was a villain, that would be tricky because then why didn't they do anything about him? Whereas now like it's it's a very difficult line to to tread, but I think they'll try for the tragedy and just hope the audience goes along with it. >> They will indeed be trying for tragedy. >> Messy Kylo Ren situation where it's like, oh, is he good? Is he bad? Is he too wavering on wavering? Is he going this >> still required though? >> They could have him pulled in from another universe and he hates them, but they don't know him, right? like that >> they could but the trailer I think the trailer establishes because there's the lion saying oh he used to be different like his surname used to be peace and love or something and then he changed >> oh his name was John joy if he changes to John Doom >> so Doom warns them that they're going to clash >> your smile >> their current universe Fantastic 4 universe is is going to clash into another one and they're trying to figure out like why is this happening like because we got an incursion someone on our universe iverse is not supposed to be here. And so they have to build a piece of technology with Reed and Doom to to discover who >> find the person in the universe. >> Yeah. Who this [ __ ] is ruining everything. Turns out it's Steve Rogers. >> Whoa. >> No, it can't be. Cannot be. Doesn't even make any sense for Endgame. >> Oh, don't you worry, Fringy. They've got an explanation. So Steve >> Steve says, "Hey, oh jeez, you found me. Yes, I'm not supposed to be in this universe." They're like, "Well, then why are you in this universe? How did you get here?" and he says, "I used to live in a branch of the timeline of the MCU world, only it was about to be pruned by the TVA, except Loki came to Steve and was like, "Bro, I got you. I'm going to save you. I'm going to save you by plucking you out of here and dropping you into the Fantastic 4 universe, >> thus causing >> Who was the old man? Who was the old man in Endgame? Who was that?" Uh, >> Joe Biden. >> I speak Joe Biden. Yes. >> A good story for another day. >> Yeah. I don't know what the [ __ ] >> interesting character decision that of all the people Loki could save that he might like care about or anything, he saves Steve Rogers. >> Yeah. But the problem is that this is this is >> like [ __ ] not Loki. This is loser lame Loki from the show >> who can do anything. Yeah. then >> over like he would save it over um uh not MorbiiUs u >> who's no histo like to apologize to Steve Roberts and MorbiiUS for your name rags I think you you hit on it right there if he just they Just need to greenlight more MorbiiUs movies and everything will be >> I'll go to the theater this time. I mean just like I did the other times. I will I will go. >> It It's got to be Morbin time more than once. Actually, >> I got Regal Cinemas gift cards that need eaten up. All right. And they don't make good movies, so they just sit there on the shelf and don't get used. So like, >> no. >> So this is love. So So this is season 2 Loki, but presumably before he becomes God of Time tree lord, >> I believe. Yes. before before he becomes Yes. before he's the god of stories or whatever. When when would that have happened? >> Off some point. >> I don't remember any notable time jumps in uh in in um >> season. >> I genuinely do not remember it. >> Yeah, but remember in between seasons we we get right back into it. >> Same one with feathers. >> Yeah. Why? Why do I even Yeah. Sorry. What am I doing? >> Well, this is season two Loki presumably. So, he knows what the TVA is. He knows what they do. He knows why they do it. He later becomes god of time Loki, who knows how basically the entire structure of the universe works. And he didn't realize that plucking Steve Rogers from one broken timeline and putting him in somebody else's one might potentially cause problems. >> Yeah. It almost implies he's doing it naively. Like, he wants to save him, but he doesn't realize putting him somewhere else isn't going to cause problems. Like but he would have known eventually right as god of >> timeline. >> Have you mentioned like what year? >> Well, have you mentioned what year Doomsday takes place in? >> No, I don't even know that. >> No, >> it takes place in 2028. Cuz the the Marvel skipped ahead a couple of years. I can't even remember what for now. >> They're a little bit ahead. Yes, >> they're a little bit ahead. Yes, >> the time jump and the the the >> Wasn't it? >> I think Thunderbolts was in 2027 or something. Wasn't it originally because they they were accounting for the five years? Wasn't that originally why they jumped? >> Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> My head. >> Um, so Steve and his family apparently spent 10 years living in Fantastic 4 universe and they watched the rise of the Fantastic 4 and their battle with Galactus and and he wants to mention his son is a big fan and it's just like, "So what were you doing, bud?" >> So he was just watching it on TV. >> Yep. He never did any. Remember, they had a montage of defeating villains, and Steve has just been watching it the whole time. >> Yeah. >> [ __ ] With great power comes great responsibility. [ __ ] that. No, >> that's not a Captain America. >> Yeah, he he could do this all day. Watch the TV. >> You can watch TV all day. >> All day. >> Well, >> in gonna do to [ __ ] Galactis walk up like throw a shield that just bounces off of his foot. Like, what's really going to happen? >> He could at least offer some help. doesn't matter. He >> he can help evacuate civilians. >> What I do enjoy about that or something >> is that they're making it canonical that he chose then to like let 911 happened, right? Like they're making that canonical. >> Yes. >> 911 was a Steve Job. >> Oh, Steve Jobs. >> One of Steve Jobs is what it was. It was >> one of his many jobs. So >> the theme emerging here though, right, is that the movie just begins and so to McGuire, Spider-Man dies. Most of the X-Men die. destroy breaks the rest of the multiverse and then Steve Rogers also destroys the rest of the multiverse and so they're responsible for the destruction of [ __ ] absolutely everything in every universe ever. >> At what point do we get a character we can sort of cheer for >> obviously >> his name is Dr. Doom platoon. That's the one he's supposed to be. >> Show some goddamn respect, please. >> To four years of evil school to get his doctor in. >> With all this known, Steve, Dr. Doom, and the Fantastic 4 travel to the MCU universe, where space is beginning to break. Their arrival. >> What does that mean? >> Their arrival is what you see at the end of Thunderbolt. >> Oh, yeah. >> The Fantastic 4 ship that arrives. that would necessarily cause an incursion, right? >> Yeah, but we're solving it. That's why they're here. >> So, it's okay to sort of start making >> Yeah. Yeah. It's already breaking anyway. The MCU's already caused a bunch of fine worlds. You know, you got to find a way to take that from Star Wars and put it so that you can have your little meetings to figure things out without immediately starting incursions. So, uh, while that's happening, the character Love, Thor's daughter, she has a vision of death and space crisis. >> What? >> Um, >> what do you crisis? >> Death and space crisis. >> Crisis. >> And this prompts Thor when she she tells him about all this to travel to the to the well, they all they seem to say is he travels to the thunderbolts like generally. So, I'm guessing he was he's just somewhere. Is the decision making process there? >> I I mean not enough information being destroyed. I better go meet the thunderbolts. >> Maybe she mentions one of them or something. >> Maybe help. >> Very large potatoes. These are the these are the biggest [ __ ] potatoes possible. That's what it is. >> Look, if the world is ending, right, and I can travel anywhere, I might also go to Florence Pew. I'm just saying. >> Yeah, fair enough. Steve Rogers is busy. Steve Rogers is out there busy plowing uh you know uh peak >> anyone he [ __ ] >> well pee Haley Atwell right now and I think that's a good reason to end the universe. >> Well >> yeah just do it with a bang. >> Thor arrives near the area and he spots the ship. He jumps on and that's where you get the scene where he meets Steve and he's like oh my god no way. And Steve grabs Muolnia to prove he is who he says he is. That's like explicitly what what people have described this as. A lot of people have speculated that he's going to be like Captain Hydra or fake Steve apart. As far as I know, he's just Steve. There is no like >> that's in the trailer, right? Like that shirt pants. >> Yeah, but people are speculating that he's like tricking everybody, but I I don't from everything I've seen with that kind of thing, >> including Molner again. Well, this came up in the trailer reaction because that would imply that Molner is a Nazi in that universe, >> which would have been the story, >> the better story, but we don't get that. >> Big gez. So yeah, that that's when you get to the everyone has arrived to uh the Avengers Tower or the Thunderbolts, whatever you want to call it at this point. I don't even know. >> That big speech in the trailer. >> Yeah. And they're all having the big chat. Um apparently Sam and Bucky have a clash over something, but Steve convinces them to work together. I'm assuming this is to do with the suing that's happening over [ __ ] the Avengers. >> Bucky Bucky wanting his shield back that he deserves. Well, Walker's the one that should have it. Let's be honest. But it's fine. Whatever. >> Yeah, it might be the lawsuit. That's right. >> It's probably the lawsuit, which was [ __ ] but apparently Steve's going to be like, "Hey guys, got to we got to got to focus. Got to work together." >> A lot of court. >> Did Elena finally like leave the sauna? >> Yes, she's in the room. Um, oh, and Scott sees Ghost and says he's happy for her because of course she was like the villain in >> Yeah, literally who. >> Um, so yeah, Reed explains that the MCU universe, the Fantastic Four universe, and the X-Men universe are all about to clash and destroy each other. And he proposes, I can't believe I'm reading this. >> Why does that why does that happen? They're like bump into like >> Yeah, they're just going to bump in and boom, that's it. But Rex, >> that's a shame. That makes sense compared to the next sentence. Are you ready? >> Well, let me Well, well, how come they this hasn't been happening already? How come the multiveres haven't already been like bumping into >> They started off a really long way away and it took >> just now getting close. >> What the [ __ ] does it mean for one universe to be a long distance away from another universe? Like, are they within a greater universe? Are there multiples of that little balls? Think of them as big universes. >> Even though that's not the way that they looked in Loki. They look like the ends of like ends like they're they're like string >> like this like this movie is the end of the rope >> like they remember in the Flash. Do you remember in the Flash they look like balls? >> No. >> I don't know what that is. Nobody >> reme you start off a sentence asking do you remember in the Flash and the answer is no. >> Mer there's I just watched a Doctor Who episode that explain so much better >> suicide. >> Yeah. Cuz Doctor Who >> wouldn't you? Yeah, maybe. >> No, in Army of Ghosts, it they explain it so much better. They they make it very clear like jumping between universe basically destroys the and you can't do it, so they make it hard. Yes, they do it with little yellow buttons, but they had they had budget problems here, >> but uh it's so much better and I just watched it last night. >> Good times, man. >> We can assume based on how far Mhler is into this that we're probably about what 40 minutes into a three-hour movie, right? Yeah, >> this is where it starts getting good as well because I was like what the next conference is going to be. >> Yeah, I'm saying this is probably the end of like actish one. There's probably, you know, >> Yeah, >> I I remember when Mer I remember when Mer messaged me two hours ago and said we only have four minutes of this video to go. And well, the reason I the reason I bring that up is mostly because I' I noticed that not a single one of the very many extradimensional beings has been mentioned a single time >> like the >> I don't have time to even mention everything that they've introduced over the last ex >> I just find yeah I find that amazing that not a single one of any of the various levels of power in >> like the dormamu dormamu like does he care about the multiverse going to end the living has been shown. Obviously, they have, you know, >> celestials. >> Celestials. They have all none of them, not a single one of them seems to give a [ __ ] >> No. Patrick Stewart, X-Men, man. >> But luckily, some heroes on this one planet in the entirety of that cosmos do care, thankfully, and they can prevent all of this. >> So, are the Guardians not in this? >> The what? >> Uh, they're the Guardians. >> Guardians of the Galaxyardians of the Galaxy. >> Why? Why would the Galaxy are going to show up in the DCU? Because that's >> that's actually a funny because it would have Gamora and uh and and Nebula are both uh Well, no, not Nebula, but Gamora is um wouldn't wouldn't she be part of the problem as well on this front? >> She's from >> She's from a different timeline. >> Well, I I like that you highlighted that, but the the more better reason of just are they characters in this to the right? >> Yeah. Well, there's there's also Eternals and Celestials and Gaia. >> There's like 17 levels. >> Multiverse bombs. >> There's no room to think about. >> No room. No room. >> So, like I said, I had just said that he's explaining Reed that the three universes of the MCU, the Fantastic 4, and the X-Men are clashing. And I did say that that sentence by comparison to the next one will make a lot of sense because this one is so [ __ ] crazy. >> I'm following you. Are you ready? Are you ready? >> Okay. >> Read Reed Richards. He has a proposal on how to prevent the three univeres from from clashing. His proposal is >> they will build enormous multiversal cannons that will shoot and separate the universes. >> You're making that up. >> All right. Now, now say the silly part. >> I'm afraid >> cuz I'm totally down with this. But this this >> in each of the sources I've seen that there will be giant cannons that will separate the universes. >> The shoot anti- universe flashing juice. >> Um >> I mean something that's worth remembering is in in the Fantastic 4 movie >> they want to teleport Earth. >> Yes. >> So yeah, I believe this totally. >> I believe it too. It's uh >> this says Reed Richards written all over it. >> Yep. teleporting the universe away from the other universe. Teleporting it. I could be like, "Okay, well, there's some logic there." But like building a gun that shoots the universe away from you. >> Some draw the line. >> How do you even load your own universe into the universe launching gun? I don't >> Or do you load a bullet that's so strong it shoots the other one away? an anti you you take Beast's anti- multiverse bomb and you put that into the cannon like it's a space mortar and you shoot it at the other multiverse. >> Oh, wait. Just Oh, wait. How they're making >> Do you think that they were sitting in a room and they were like, "How do we make things cannon?" Do you think Do you think >> Oh, how do we make How do we make cannons? >> Canon cannons. Got it. >> Someone misheard them. Was like, "Wait, that's brilliant." No, that's not what I said. >> You like it has to be right. >> Brilliant. Johnson. >> It has to be. >> This is just like in season 5 of Stranger Things when Steve has a master plan. >> Yes. >> Yeah. But this is much bigger. >> So there is that. >> There's no there's no Atari explanational vinyls in this though, so I don't think it's going to make much sense compared to Stranger Things. >> I hope we get a giant give us a graph. >> Wait, >> that that song and they're just the word and they're like we have to use cannons. That would be even worse. And then everybody stops and Iceman comes out in a 20 minute scene. >> Thank god. >> Oh, where does it fit in the triangle? Wouldn't it be the other one? >> Dude, Stacy Rockford starts explaining her favorite music as the cannon activates. >> This is where the Avengers theme starts playing. I think it's a pretty uh smart move, honestly. Every >> knowledge, >> it's kind of overrated, you know, pretty popcorn these days. The knowledge that it's a cannon that will separate universes has annoyed Random so much that he's going to leave us now. This is it for him. >> Yeah, he has to go shoot himself to a different place. Yeah, >> I can't handle it. It's too much. And I don't think I'm going to understand any of this movie when I when I do watch it cuz from the sounds of it, you have to watch Loki to understand anything that Marvel is doing. And I haven't seen Loki. >> 14 other things as well cuz they released a whole list of homework for you. Uh like 15 movies, wasn't it? >> That that's my favorite thing when I want to go to the cinema is I want to have homework, especially when that homework involves watching TV shows and especially when those TV shows are bad. >> Hey, Shi's not part of that homework though, so that's the good news. >> I have actually seen that one. >> Regardless, sir, thank you so much for joining us and we'll have to see. Will we see you again or will you this be your departing? No, I will not be back on, I'm afraid, because I've got a long drive tomorrow because my brother has decided to get married. So, yeah. Um, >> Big Mistake. Big mistake. >> Couldn't get that first one out of the way. >> Mhm. >> During EAP episode 400, he's doing that. >> I know. I know. >> I did tell him, but he was like, "Nah, sorry. >> Disrespectful, but that's okay." >> Yes. Uh, thank you for the invite. Congrats on what, eight years and 400 episodes. That's insane. Um, and yeah, thank you again for the invite. Thank you, Guitude. >> See you later, guys. Bye. >> Sounded like he was going to say insightly pathetic, but maybe that's just me. >> You made that up. >> I did. Um I checked Shangi is on the list of homework. >> It wasn't though. >> It was on one because responded. >> Yeah, they did they did a list on Disney Plus that's very similar to the updated list, but Shani wasn't on there and Shani was like, "Dude, what the [ __ ] My movie, but my movie made $400 million against a 2008 million budget. >> It was very funny that they probably saw that were like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Watch Shani. Yeah, dude. Yeah, go for it." Mhm. Yes. You'll need to see that one >> with the rings and all that. >> Um, so anyway, as mentioned, you know, cannons separating the universe. Yeah, there is something there that could be be said on meta the writers are doing using >> 100% right on that one. I I agree. >> Um regardless they can't do it right now. They need advanced technology. They must discover that in different areas of places including but not limited to Wakanda. So the Fantastic Four are going to go to Wakanda to ask them for help. Meanwhile, >> what >> Reed Richards is going to ask Sherry for help. That's that's what that's what I'm hearing. >> Sure, why not? Remember, they're ahead of ever. >> I hate this. I hate it all. >> He's going to He's going to go to Embaku. He's going to go to Manape himself. >> Hell yeah. >> Uh but meanwhile, >> what I would not give for them to just use that name one [ __ ] time. Just one time. Call him by his name. >> Well, they had the masks, didn't they? But they didn't want to go with the uh >> Yeah, they didn't want to actually say it. >> Uh where are we? Sorry. Oh, yes. Uh so Ste's happening. Meanwhile, Steve and Thor are traveling to the TVA because Steve still has a card that Loki gave him. So, he needs to he wants to go speak to him. So, that's happening. And then everyone else is heading to the X-Men universe. >> Solve all this themselves, right? Like everything always all the time. >> Well, I don't understand why Loki couldn't have just, you know, can't just make everything good. What's What's going on, Loki? What you doing, >> Mr. They could just go back in time before any of this happened and just fix everything and prune what they need to and it's done and over. >> Technically they're outside of time like they he and outside of time he time is irrelevant. He could go to any point in time before any time. It doesn't matter. >> Um Kang mentioned at all? >> No. No Kang. >> Any mention of King? Okay. >> Nope. Nope. He's out. He's back. Don't do that. So uh >> what happened to Kang in universe? Have they have they explained what like >> in what if season 3 >> uh the council of Kangs was wiped out by Captain Carter >> who eventually >> like so are you meing or did that really that's what happened? >> No. No. And then Captain Carter ascends into like a >> fifth dimensional demigod >> female Captain America. >> Yes. Female Captain America wiped out all of the Kangs you saw at the end of Multis. her boobs ascend into uh >> godhood. >> How's that possible? >> Strong super soldier. But >> yeah, she's like really really really strong though. Like really strong though. >> Like really >> [ __ ] with me. >> The super the multiversal cannons you accepted instantly. But the captain Carter defeating the gangs is impossible to you. Why do you hate women is harder to believe? >> Yeah. >> Well, listen, don't don't get me started. I know we're going to be here a long time, but don't get me started. But it did. That is actually harder to believe. Weirdly enough, in these movies like multiverse shooting cannons instead of >> Captain Car defeating all of the kings, >> they make anything happen. >> Die in 3 seconds in Multiverse of Madness. It might be a better cell. >> Yeah. Which she's like was [ __ ] mad at eventually cuz they all get to talk about this [ __ ] eventually. That was not cool. It's like, yeah, the whole movie wasn't [ __ ] cool, dude. Anyway, so there the all the different people are off to different places, but everyone else went to the X-Men universe. Mainly the Avengers, quote unquote, went to the X-Men universe to basically be it's the scene that you see where everyone starts attacking each other cuz basically like, you know, it's the whole, oh, we don't understand what's going on. Everyone's going to start killing each other, but they'll all do moves such that they don't do any permanent damage to anybody. It's like, yeah, okay. Even though they would absolutely be trying to kill each other at this point. >> Anyway, while that's happening, though >> over in Wakanda Shuri asks Namore for help and he says no not going to do it not very nice >> I don't know why the [ __ ] he is in the film that's a great question >> oh wait are the pretty smart ants going to be in the film >> no and they couldn't afford them >> that's a shame they haven't unionunized >> well they were communist ants >> yeah they they charge a lot uh so Sue meets up with Shuri and Neamor. And apparently there's there's like a some kind of romantic thing between her and Neore. Um, which is cringe as [ __ ] If Reed is there, too. We're going to have to be dealing with some kind of attempt at funny. >> Oh, Sue. Oh, they're going to do the Sue and >> Yeah, that's that's actually accurate. >> Well, it would be accurate if Neore was about to say, what the [ __ ] about this is accurate? >> As you can get. >> Yeah. Um, but the X-Men uh attack the MCU guys as they're coming in. So, oh, good good god. How's this happening? And uh they just don't they don't trust anyone. See, because they've had to destroy so many worlds, which is really weird to me because they have a [ __ ] mind reader and mind controller on their team as in someone who could tell them immediately, oh, these guys are like they have good intentions. You know what I mean? Like, but apparently they just end up fighting for ages until this is the this is the most unbelievable part to me out of all the spoilers, which is kind of funny. say, you know, with everything we've seen, but they're all having this big fight. Everyone's jumping around, explosions everywhere until Monica Rambo arrives and calls an end to the fight. >> Now, this is possible. >> Black girl magic. >> This is possible considering the [ __ ] after credit scene of Captain Marvel, but I just wouldn't have thought she'd be in the [ __ ] movie. It's like, oh, really? >> Yeah. Surely they're not acknowledging that film's existence. >> Apparently, they are. She's going to show up in the like 90 no 100% of the general audience is going to be like who the [ __ ] is that? >> She's in an after credit scene of a film no one saw. It's like that's how she connects to the X-Men. So now they're just be like who the [ __ ] is that? But you know there she is and she's like I know these guys and I know these guys. Be nice. Even though she's an incursion causing being by the way. >> She is. And wait because the marbles isn't on the list of homework either is it? And Thor Love and Thunder isn't on the list of homework. So, so Thor's going to show up with a random godchild that you won't have been told to watch the film that comes from. And then Monica Rambo from a show nobody watched in a postredit scene nobody watched is going to show up and be really important. I think the homework could buy that the audience is like, "Yo, the audience will buy that he has a kid." That's a thing that just happens. a kid who's also a like a a massive god creature with the power of >> any of Thor's kids would be powerful >> and her judgment isn't her judgment isn't exactly the best. I mean that's the woman who said you'll never realize what you sacrificed for them in [ __ ] W division. >> I remember be noted is if you haven't watched Thor Love and Thunder you'll be like wait why is why is Thor not fat anymore? What happened? Yeah. >> Emp a tenth of a second. >> Clearly the the trailer is trying to revert him to, you know, punish Thor, which was everyone's favorite Thor. It's like, yeah, but now you you you've got really no reason. It's just he just is for just like, whatever. [ __ ] it. >> Hang on, chat. Gary and his comic accuracy cope. What? >> I don't know what you're talking about. >> He's doing coping. >> Yeah, that's cope. >> He's coping right now. That's what he's doing. He's coping about being >> dude. This movie sounds like it's like right there. Like we're almost at greatness, but unfortunately a little bit of comic accuracy. >> Just a little bit of comic accuracy. >> You see issue 4216B-7 that was made three, four years ago. Yes. 16 panel 4 >> then. Yeah. >> Well, that was the direct market edition or the director's edition. We have >> two. We were moments away from art. >> Question. There was no director's edition. >> Oh, very close. So, uh, back over to the TVA and they find Loki and Loki tells Thor and Steve that Dr. Doom stole his powers and now Dr. Doom's unstoppable. >> Lok, is that a thing he can do? Is that a comic thing? >> I don't understand how the [ __ ] Dr. to Doom stole Loki's powers when he was the god of all things ever forever and ever >> of time and space. He's he's basically an omnipotent omniscience otherworldly entity. >> There's thousands of comics uh out there and a lot of them feature Dr. Doom and he's done pretty much everything. >> Yeah, but like >> he's turned himself into a black man. >> You see why kids love the taste of his >> I haven't read it recently. He's like brand new to this continuity. You might want to give some reasoning, you know, like anything. >> Wasn't there an early version of the leaks where he kills Loki to get >> apparent? Well, maybe he he might have his heart or something and Loki can live without restored in the heart. Pet stored in the balls. Powers are stored in the heart. This is Anyone who's read a comic book can tell you this. >> If they kill him again, are they going like there will be no resurrections this time, >> but this time for real? Um, also, hi Kalisto. How you doing? >> Doing all right, man. How about yourself? >> Yeah, you know, we're uh we're we're eight hours in, so this is still the early times, you know, not not not losing it just yet. >> Early hours. Yeah, >> we're discussing the uh the leaks of Avengers Doomsday, which are probably 100% accurate, unfortunately. We're just we're just talking about the story, seeing how it goes. So, >> Oh, how how how's it sounding so far? >> Oh, you know, >> it's great. It's a little shaky in a few parts, but I think as long as they just tighten up the script a little bit, it'll be totally logical. It'll >> The multiverse cannons are so close to working. Yes, >> we just need a few adjustments. >> I'm staying positive this stream. I say trust the process. >> The issue I have, and maybe it's just me, does the MCU's multiverse construction even make sense? cuz I've always been very confused in each iteration cuz past a certain point I was like what's like the timeline and the multiverse itself like the like the different timelines in the multiverse itself how how are they even that different? >> I mean not only does it not make sense but the the creators of this [ __ ] are like you just need to watch eight movies before this one and you'll get it. It's like oh >> yeah. Did you do your homework? Because if you watch the from all the movies on the homework list it'll all make sense. >> Yes. >> I I'll be honest. Past a certain point I just stopped caring about the MCU. >> Yeah. You know what? You and everyone else >> that criticism kind of gets levied toward the older stuff. Like you got to watch like a bunch of movies to understand some of this stuff. But like >> those were eight decent movies. These are eight bad ones. >> Well, it was also shows >> you could watch Avengers without phase one. You could do it. >> You could watch a lot of this [ __ ] without having to do the homework. But you are right. A lot of the time it was homework that people wanted to do anyway. >> But it it doesn't even matter if you do the homework for most of these newer ones because they just change the rules every time anyway. So doing the homework is actually a detriment in some cases than going in blind. >> So >> you're coming in with preconceived notions about how things work and then you're told, "Nah, that was never how it was anyway." >> Yeah. It's like I expect anchor beings to feature quite prominently, but I don't think we've mentioned those yet. >> Probably won't get mentioned. I mean, how does um Thanos and his entire army at the end of Endgame >> play into this since they were from an earlier timeline? Wouldn't they get PR? >> Hey, look. If the pretty smart ants don't show up, Thanos's army is not going to show up. >> Yeah, there's a ladder to these social things. >> Socialist ants. Okay, rags. Not just >> the film says it's pretty smart. I'm using the gentleman's words from the film. >> I'll stop being >> pretty smart ants. when all this mention of ants has scared nuts and she's gonna leave now. How could you? >> She's muted. But >> I I forgot that I was muted. Sorry. >> She just left. She didn't actually She She's like, "I'm just gone. The leaks are making her mentally check out. >> I'm dead." Yeah. Well, yeah, they scared the [ __ ] out of me. >> I'm so sorry. Oh, >> well, there's there's other versions of you in other universes, so don't worry. You'll you'll return. You'll return at the 450 or >> she's going to come back and like get her revenge 5 minutes. >> Break break break out the canon cannons. >> Yeah. Well, well, thank you for having me you guys and congratulations on eight years again and 400 episodes. It's crazy. Yeah. >> Well, thank you very much. Thanks for joining us and uh we'll see you again, I'm sure. >> Byebye. >> Goodbye. >> Bye. So anyway, Doom apparently, according to Loki telling Thor Steve, uh he's he's planning to destroy all universes and create one perfect one. That's the plan. >> I'm on his side. >> Just destroy them all. Don't even create a perfect one. >> Is all of them being gone. I think that's really what it is. Um, so Steve and Thor then travel to the X-Men universe to reveal that Doom is evil to I guess what would at that point be the X-Men and the uh new Avengers some people you hear about. >> They have to do like they're going to have to call him Victor for most of the movie >> because calling him Doom will just be like >> guys Doom is evil. I know it's crazy. I know. Professor Final Solution uh he was evil too. Dr. Evil was actually a good guy at the end of Austin Power. >> Dr. Evil was evil. >> Don't think about that. Um, anyway, so they're all teamed up at this point like, "Oh my god, I can't believe he's evil. That's horrifying." And then Doom turns up and activates, as seen in the trailers, the Sentinels, and a huge battle takes place that destroys the X-Mansion, which is also in the trailer. So, >> how many times does that build that building is like the the Charles Xavier or the Uncle Ben of movies where he just it just keeps getting blown up of buildings. >> It's the Charles Xavier of buildings. >> Oh, >> but yes, it gets blown up. >> Cast as the as the school in a movie. You're you're dying. You're going to get blown. >> How many times has it actually been destroyed? Cuz now I'm wondering if it's actually that many. >> Um >> like fully destroyed. I only know one, two, three doesn't happen. >> Days of future past, it gets destroyed, right? >> It gets destroyed in Apocalypse cuz it gets it gets >> blown up. Gets up. >> The fact that the same building is blown up. We're already there if it's two. >> It's not it's not Logan, but I mean maybe it got destroyed off screen. >> We can assume. Yeah, probably. >> Okay. So, and it doesn't happen in either of the Deadpool movies. So, >> it's funny. Three times >> a lot. Three times is a lot. Well, yeah, but >> twice as long in X2, >> but not just to be clear, is it only actually been blowed up on screen once? >> Yes, cuz that's an >> just dilapitated in uh Days of Future Past. It's not like it's actually destroyed. >> I think that counts as being destroyed. We don't stand as allowing it to be destroyed by time and you know, just you know, disdain. >> No, I think I agree. It's still a decent amount that that's happened. That's true. >> Well, anyway, he destroys it all. Big sad, but it creates a big murky gray battlefield. Thank god cuz now it doesn't take >> That'll probably be easy to That'll be easy to animate on. Thank goodness. >> Yeah, that shaved off, you know, millions of gravel pit outside of Toronto where >> that's where you get the Thor trying to personally attack Doom and then doesn't work and he gets blasted. stops finger. Yeah, he's very powerful. >> Doom uh essentially defeats everyone there the moment, but like leaves them to the to the Sentinels and travels to the MCU universe with the intention to kidnap Franklin. Uh that'll be Sue and Reed's kid because he has the cosmic power or the power cosmic I guess what it's called, right? From Galactus and that's what Doom needs. Please try to follow this. >> What does he need it for? for power power power to do multiverse things. >> But he can stop like Thor with a finger without even like reacting to it. He's fine. >> He needs more fine. He needs >> ridiculously OP. Yeah. >> Ridiculously OP in the comics, which has always been dumb. >> Basically rewrites reality as he sees. >> Yep. >> Sue tries to stop him, fails, and Doom kidnaps Steve as well. Takes them all to Castle Doom. Meanwhile, back at the old X-Men universe, >> it's called Castle Doom. >> Yeah. >> All right. >> I guess that's where Dr. Doom would be. >> Last name. >> Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. >> Yeah. >> So, doesn't everybody name their house after themselves? >> You could have called it Casadoom. >> A Casadeloom. >> Casadeloom. >> The Sentinels uh are kind of winning and among their winning, they harm Yolena. They harm her. And this >> she throws sticks at him. >> I know you guys are surprised. I know that she's been nearly defeated by a sentinel. Yolena, I I thought she'd take out a few before this, but it doesn't say that. Apparently, she just sort of loses to them. I am I am shocked personally. But as she is losing, this sets off Bob. It activates Sentry and he goes [ __ ] nuts and he kills all the the Sentinels cuz he's pretty OP. And then before >> there's always whenever someone says Bob there's always like a two second gap in my mind when I try and who [ __ ] thunderbolts. Yeah, >> that's Yeah, for people who don't know powers that he should just win. >> Yeah, you got to make him angry or you got you got to lock him into to attack mode or whatever. But unfortunately, >> anyone's powers prevent them from being sucked into the depression dimension or whatever. He sent >> Well, that's the thing. So he he knocks out the Sentinels, but now they're like, "Oh god, now he's he's uber depressing, man." >> Depressed, >> but it's okay. >> They >> because >> uh Professor X is there and he gets into his head and calms him down. You're like, "Oh." >> Oh, okay. >> There you go. >> Solved. >> An appropriate use of his powers, I guess, would be I mean that's I guess maybe that's the most shocking thing is that he's able to he's allowed to accomplish something in >> the Mer hasn't got to the bit where Wonder appears behind him and snaps his neck. I was going to say, >> um, >> is that how the movie solved? They just break another Wanda and then she just kills Doom. >> We'll have to. We might not even get the answer to that in this movie. Who knows? Um, >> no. >> So, Xavier uses Cerebro to locate Franklin in the multiverse and finds he is locked up in Castle Doom in Latvaria. And so, you know, the expectation is that whole team is now heading there. But we cut back over to there and we see that Doom has decided to explain his backstory to Steve. We're finally going to go. Why is he doing all this? What happened? >> That's useful because I would like to know as well explaining it to Steve. >> Really handy. >> That's a really good writing actually. >> Does it explain Does it explain when he takes his masks off mask off? >> Cuz one set of spoilers said it was to Thor, >> but now I'm hearing it might be to Steve. >> It might. Yeah. I mean, obviously take all of this with a grain of salt in terms of names moving around, but yeah, broadly. >> Um, >> so Doom was always looking through the multiverse to find his mother cuz she died. He was like, I'm going to have to find her through a different universe. Oky doy instead. >> Wait, wait, a different version of his mother? >> I guess I guess the same same like >> Oh, so he's stupid. Like Wanda's stupid. >> Like Wanda's stupid. Yeah. >> Yeah. Why not his dad? Um, so instead, >> uh, Doom, >> moving on from that, I guess he's gone. He's like, "You gave birth to Dr. Doom. I'm [ __ ] out of here." >> In That's true, to be fair. Uh, so Doom eventually finds Sue Storm in another universe and falls in love with her. And they have a kid together and oh jeez, this is so wonderful. But oh no, an incursion. Oh dear. And the universe is collapsing. And when Doom tries to stop it, unfortunately, somehow he kills his own wife and child >> or they die because of the universe collapsing or something. It was one of those mistake. >> Sad, sad, sad. He he also got disfigured from this and now wears a mask, which that might be when he shows that. I don't know. >> Um, so anyway, he's mad. He's really mad. He's seething. And he says he thinks it's unfair that Reed gets to live the life he wants with Sue and Steve got to cheat losing his loved ones. and all the X-Men or whatever, they're doing their [ __ ] with time travel. Not fair. Not fair. He didn't get it. Why didn't he get it and they got it? That's not fair. And so, um, this sounds like something that might get cut. Like, this just sounds surprising, but there was two different leaks I saw that said this. Doom then kills Steve's son in front of him. >> I've heard that leak, >> which is like, damn. >> If I can confirm that one, >> that's pretty evil. >> Yeah. Um, >> it sounds too dramatically satisfying to be in the film. >> Well, >> I guess they'll keep it. >> I don't hate Steve's son. He hasn't done anything in this series yet to warrant my eye. >> Breastfed on Haley Atwell was >> Oh, how that could How come that couldn't have been me? No, I'm understanding Doom all of a sudden. I'm I'm kind of getting it. >> Uh, also during the scene, you see uh Doctor Strange and Clear both work for Doom now. They're two of the four Latvarian witches >> cuz they've been those pictures >> and they make Doctor Strange a witch. >> We will we will show that in in a bit cuz the the point of this reading is to then >> What about Wong? Wong's the sorceress for >> Wait, wait, wait. >> Are we are we really to conclude that that was what was intended with that postredit scene for Multiverse of Madness? >> Obviously, >> off they go and then this is where you'll see them next. A so it was intuitive to me. >> If they make Doctor uh if they make Doctor Strange a witch, he'll be an X-Men. >> No, we did a woman because he's a witch. >> Thank you. All right. Thanks. We can >> What's the distinction they made at the end of One Division that like a witch like does something specific, right? Like it's like with >> I thought that we we can invite this conversation again, but I'd always understood that a warlock is like a >> male witch. Yeah. >> Yes. Totally. It's witches and warlocks. >> And then a wizard is a totally different like genderneutral category than a >> MCU and and we have King Valkyrie. So >> call him a witch. >> Um but yes, apparently they were captured when trying to prevent a clash between the MCU universe and the Illuminati universe. You remember that [ __ ] one? >> Why would Why would there Why would there have been one? >> I don't even want to try to answer that question. Okay, this movie simply says that is the case. >> That movie it was all it was all like neatly tied up, right? Like they were they >> maybe it was too late. >> Too late. Damn it. I don't know. Like damage was done easy. >> I mean that could a seems really really easy to write films. >> Guys, I think we could write something like this. I think we could. >> No. I like to think that the Illuminati universe is just like a place where a bunch of Doctor Strangers just end up showing up and they're like, "Oh, [ __ ] There's another one." >> Yep. >> God damn it. Council of Strange. >> John Malovich. Yeah. >> [ __ ] >> Um, but hello. Howdy, Uno. How you doing? >> Hey everybody. How's it going? >> This uh this this fell actually hasn't been on a stream before, but he's uh he's been helping out with some of the art assets for the Resident Evil streams and some editing for different videos as well. Oh, hey. >> How's it going? >> What's the What's the heart for? >> Um, it's to do with my It's actually my last name. >> Oh, well, I mean, don't dox yourself. >> Yeah, it'll hurt. Makes sense. So, >> we brought in a new guest. He doxed himself in 10 seconds. >> His last name is Black Clearly. >> Black Heart. >> His last His last name is Spleen >> Heart of Darkness. But yes, you've uh you've just joined. We're just talking about some, you know, just just spoiling the entirety of Avengers Doomsday. In theory, anyway, all of this might not even be accurate. I'm sure it's not nothing to worry about. >> I picked up six. >> I asked if uh Doom kills Steve's son and he said uh my guy said he did not see that scene, but he definitely does something that breaks uh Peggy Carter. >> So, I'm thinking maybe. >> Yeah, big maybe. Put a big maybe on that one. >> Yep. So, um, while they were trying to deal with the Illuminati universe clashing with the MCU universe, Doom contacted them and appeared and said, "Oh my god, we've got to save the MCU universe because it is the sacred timeline." And so, he works with them to destroy the Illuminati universe to prevent it from destroying the sacred timeline. >> Sacred timeline. How does he learn that? That's even >> the TVA, I guess, would have, but I don't >> because he ate Loki's heart, right? al. Yeah, he's like the like the ancient Greeks knowledge. >> Yeah, man. That Yeah, sure. We'll go with that. [ __ ] it. So, uh but then he has to possess strange and clear and turn them into the latium witches because he decides with the power that he has, he's going to destroy all universes in favor of creating just one that he wants. And you know, they wouldn't have been on board with that. So, he has to go work. >> Yeah. >> Well, and it makes you wonder, could he not have done this to everyone? Why not just them? I was like, I I need to destroy all of the universes. Like, I don't know, man. Just make the one you like, right? Just hang out there. Who cares if there's other universe? >> You raise a point there, Mo. It's like, yeah, I mean, if he's got a mind control, like, why doesn't he just do that? Why? Like, why even >> apparently he's done it to wander, too? Um, >> he's making the multiverse cannons. >> I presume that it would be harder to do it for people who have like magical abilities compared to like regular people, right? Yeah, >> that just seems intuitive from a power. >> Unless magic makes you >> susceptible to mind control. >> What? Yeah, you know, you're right, Frankie. What are we [ __ ] doing? >> Exactly. >> Even talking about like what? >> So, >> all of the characters arrive at Leveria and Thor on the way asks Odin for help. I'm not sure how this will work out exactly, but uh Sue also Sue tells Reed that she's she's pregnant again. And this will be relevant in a moment. So, warriors from Valhalla appear, including apparently, and this is probably subject to very much change, Odin, Heimdoll, Jane Foster, and Loki from Infinity War specifically. I >> think all of those people are dead. >> Well, they're in Valhalla and they've come down to help. >> Yeah, but >> so they died and they came Oh, they went to heaven. They went to heaven and got people to help them. >> Well, does does coming back from heaven count as an incursion or no? This is just getting into the rules guard or something. >> Valhalla in this Jane's hammer >> cuz Valhalla has a place in is I don't I don't even want to [ __ ] pretend like they are going to adapt this in a way that makes any sense. I'm just this is what happens. Okay, >> the Valkyries right when they were battling. >> Wait, if Jane Foster comes back from Valhalla, does her cancer start working again? >> Yes, she's on a time limit. Every pagan knows that there's no cancer in Valhalla. If you're if you're a warrior and you die of cancer, that you still get to go. So, >> well, I think that was the logic in the in the film, right? That she you're fighting you're like in a war with cancer and >> body your white blood cells are fighting valiantly against it themselves. >> I mean, I don't I'm not sure if it'll return because we haven't seen at the end of the credits that cancer will return in Avengers Doomsday. So >> answer the writing >> everything else the writing said will be returned. So >> so uh Reed enters Doom's castle and he saves Steve and he tells him everything and we get a huge battle between all the heroes and a bunch of Doombots. >> Very epic. Lots of explosions. >> Uh Reed, Sam Wilson, and Cyclops are apparently fighting for Doom because he got mind control on them three. I guess up to this point, I don't really know. Probably like a corruption thing. I'm not sure. This is where it gets really conf like like this. This is probably most subject to change, especially since it's the last >> turn into a [ __ ] bro. He's taking his wife. >> The mind controlled him. That's so [ __ ] up. Um, so anyway, they they win. They defeat the bots. They defeat And they even defeat Doom only to realize that he was a bot. And the real Doom is already outside. I I'm not even kidding. outside the multiverse with Franklin. >> Yep. >> He absorbs >> like outside space and time like crisis and in >> Yeah, he's outside space and time. He absorbs the power cosmic from Franklin and then he destroys everything. It's all into that. >> The infant did not survive. >> I think the infant does survive actually. But >> wait, how does how >> I will say this in the infant survives? Well, so Doom >> dusts everything ever in every way. But then he begins to recreate, right? So everyone is dead. Dead as dust, but then he creates what is called Battle World. >> Battle World. >> And he makes it such that Sue is his wife now. Franklin is his son now. And then uh he's also going to adopt Reed's new child, Valyria. >> I don't know why he would just make that kid his own kid. I don't even know. Like when you're making the universe from [ __ ] scratch. >> Do whatever you want. Do anything. >> He's like supreme leader mag. >> I will call it Boulder World. >> Oh. >> So yeah. Um so this is based on on Hickman's Secret War uh that came out in 2015 16 which is the bad version. There's two. Well, there's three because there's Secret Wars 2, but there's a good 80s version and there's a terrible version that kind of collapses and and melds the the real 616, which is the comic book universe. The [ __ ] MCU is not the 616. It's what what is it? Mer was like five. It was like 99999 or whatever the hell it was. >> One 99999 metal back in the call. >> Oh god. >> Ah, no. Uh, yeah. And this kind of it's God emperor Doom. So >> yeah. >> Well, yeah. I mean, he's there's no power greater than he could literally destroy at will everything ever existed in every way in the multiverse and then create it as he wishes. He's that there's nothing more than that. I think >> so. >> How do you follow this up going ahead? Like like how do you >> uh you follow it up with Zemo. Okay. Back to a street villain, right? >> Yeah. >> I mean, >> well, that's what they should have done in the first place. We'll get into that after the leaks. >> They should kill Doom in the last second of the film by like Infinity Stone Ultron from the What If show. >> Yeah. Or >> what if Griema Wim Tongue comes up behind him and stabs him in the lung? >> No. Gaia. If Gaia comes in and has her mast arm and just punches him through the chest. >> Has Have you mentioned Gaia yet? Sorry, I'm glazing over a bit mentally. Have you mentioned Gaia yet? >> She's come up um but not in the script. No, none of the leaks. We've just talked about her. Okay. All right. >> We We will never see that character again. Surely. >> Yeah, that's true. Yeah, we won't. Um I was curious. I was just >> Is Blade in this? >> Well, there's only one Blade. >> Only that Blade won't even be in this. So, >> no, he won't. Not this one. Maybe next one. >> Doom resurrects everybody, but he just places them in the world with no knowledge of anything that happened before it. >> That's super smart to resurrect everybody who could potentially take you out. Whatever. Yeah, just like I mean in terms of >> so to be cheeky >> they they are dead and these are copies then. >> Yeah, I don't even know how that's kind of like that's where my mind's going immediately. It's like so are we doing what are we doing here? So >> what does it what does it mean for a person to be recreated in like a new universe with different history? Like it means they're not the same person, right? Bringy, what's your take on the transporter in Star Trek? >> Oh, it kills the [ __ ] out of me. >> Well, that's the problem is I don't Yeah, like that's all I've ever understood is that that's what >> Yeah. >> Um >> I mean this is a step worse than that because this is this is Doom creating you from scratch from his like you know his magical POV like I don't even what does that even mean at that point? What I like that's kind of that's like the point that I'm getting at is >> you're a brand new person. He's going to give so many kids. >> Yes. >> Well, and uh it's not quite over. Nearly there. So, he does all that res resurrecting. Everyone's back, but they're all, you know, none none the wiser. And the audience knows what happened and Doom, but nobody else does. Except there is a postredit scene. I I can't you're you're all going to say why, and I will not have an answer for you. I'm just going to tell you what I know, >> but you're welcome to say why, and I won't have an answer. So, we discover >> Eternals. We discover Tobey Maguire's Spider-Man, Hugh Jackman's Wolverine, Tom Holland Spider-Man, and the Young Avengers are all the only ones to remember everything. >> I know you preempted with the >> No, I'll do It's all right, guys. I'll take one for the team. Uh, Mer, why? >> That's a great question. I have the answer. >> Okay, I'd love to hear it. I'm not going to tell you it cuz I don't know what it is. I lied. I lied to your face just now. I just lied to you telling me you [ __ ] >> There is one last sentence though and that is doom sits the throne of battle world finally resting and watching the sun rise on a grateful I'm I'm lying like that's that's definitely what they're going for though. He will win and it'll be like oh boy that's really because of course they're trying to recreate >> they want to recreate Infinity War for sure. >> Absolutely. Is that as regularly cited as the last time people were like super invested in the MCU was the end of Infinity War? So, >> you know, with Infinity War, we we we've had conversations about power scaling with the stones and how it gets a bit floopy >> with them, especially like the reality stone. Um, but even with that being said, there's still something of a cleanly, readily communicatable aspect of the power scaling, which is he needs to be wearing that glove. Once you take that off, then he's in a position to be stopped and you need to prevent him from closing his hand because that's like a necessary element of using it. Um, how could they possibly beat Doom if like he has the power to rewrite like >> the It's the Young Avengers. >> The Young Avengers, they got this, >> which is that >> well Kate Bishop. So, she's got a bow and arrow. I think that should be pretty good. Um, we got we got Cassie Lang. She can uh shrink. >> Maybe they can harness the power of ants. >> Yeah, she can shrink. That's true. >> So, um >> is um is America from um Multiverse of Madness in the Young Avengers >> in in if she wish she actually would be able to make a difference in theory. >> Dude, I feel like that should be the beginning of the movie. >> Couldn't she just universe? But if they destroy the multiver escape from Doom. If Doom destroys all the multicosverse, then she can't she can't escape, right? >> Well, no. I'm saying she could open a portal right next to a chop or some [ __ ] I don't know. >> But like, wouldn't But but this cuz when you cuz when you say like, "Oh, well the the so these people exist in this world, which means that Doom created them." >> Yeah. There's going to be some glitch where for some reason Toby Maguire, Hugh Jackman, Tom Holland, and the >> Avengers. We're dealing with B. But we're basically dealing with like wishes. So, how is that? >> Okay, but like why would anybody except for Doom even have like super Why wouldn't he just create it so that nobody has superpowers except for him, right? >> I think we have the wonder problem where they just wrote him to be stupid. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Why would you? OKAY. WHY? WHY AM I EVEN WHAT AM I? >> Because I You see, Frankie, you and I, if we were Dr. Doom and we were like the god of the multiverse, then obviously we wouldn't create people who could challenge us because that would be incredibly stupid and we just wouldn't do that. >> You guys are missing the bright side of this. >> Go on. >> Jean Gray's dead. >> I mean, silver linings. >> She'll be back. >> Oh, yeah. Of course, it's worth saying that among all of that then that Professor X did indeed die for what is that the fifth time. >> I believe it's the fifth. >> That's great. Nice to keep track. >> He's Yeah, he's an Uncle Ben to your character. >> That would be number five. Yes, that would be I was It's I was running in my head. I'm like one, two, three. Yeah. No. Yeah, that's >> goddamn Patrick Stewart. He's like He's like the Shawn Bean of superheroes. Oh, how are you going to get an entire movie on Battle World? Like, >> I don't know. >> Big CGI budget. >> It was bad enough when they had to stop. >> Battle World's going to be awesome. It's probably going to be like big and gray like some places >> and muddy. >> Yeah. And there's like a smog, like a gray smog over everything. >> Oh, yeah. So, you can't see very far into the >> Oh, that would be so cool if they did that. >> Can't wait. >> I think they could pull it Remember that awesome effect scene in Love and Thunder Muller? >> It was like black and white. >> Yeah, they can do that. >> That looks horrible. >> That was like A24 or something. >> And so, um, what is to be concluded? This film will make like $2 billion, right? It's looking like that's absolutely >> And there will be people. We can't be sure that they're actual people, but there will be people who say this is good. >> Oh, yeah. >> It'll happen. And we will be baffled by it. We'll be like, "Wow." I I promise you your going over the leaks was a better version. This is the best version you're going to hear of this film. Was Baller described as the leaks to you >> because it's shorter. >> Well, and you read it all and it's just like I'm sorry. I know this sounds a little silly, but it's just like I'm sorry. I don't think anyone made that up. I think someone saw it and that was their best recall of of the events. >> The multiverse cannon is crazy. No, there that what it like and they don't even get to fire it. How sad is that? >> What? >> They don't get to fire the multiverse. >> Yeah, that doesn't get check off cannon. Cannon. >> Yeah, that's that's a that's crazy that they've forgotten that that rule. >> God, wait till you get to the end of Secret Wars, guys. And um >> yeah, >> they reset everything again. Okay. and nobody's going to have any memory of what happened before again. And they bring back uh just this is hypothetical, guys, hypothetical. Purely hypothetical, just like in Green Lantern um or lanterns. Um they bring back uh Robert Downey Jr. is Tony Stark. >> Purely hypothetical. I wish I could There's I can't say other things. I'll get in trouble. Um, that I'll give you a hint again. So, what happens to Pegar Carter in What If season 3 is very similar to what is supposed to happen to Captain America. >> Oh, I'm sorry, Steve Rogers. >> Bro, I thought you were going to say that they split him in half like in the [ __ ] uh what's it called? >> Oh, no. >> I was like, whoa. That would almost be a better fate. That would almost be better. >> You remember that that leaked scene that everyone thought was AI where it's like Thor picks up Cap and and they both grab their respective weapons. It's like, oh [ __ ] that matches 100% with the leaks. Great. >> Mhm. >> And of course, everyone's just It's like, so it's regular, man. That's who that's who Chris Evans will be playing because he's not allowed in his suit and he's not allowed to be called Cap >> because we he we don't want to step on the toes >> because everything's [ __ ] stupid in America. >> Everything continue on with Sam Wilson Cap as far as I know. >> Best of luck. >> Yeah, they they bosched that whole thing. >> I mean, they could just call him the captain, which is what >> they're going to reboot the universe. You'd be like, "Dude, Steve Rogers gave me this." like who? >> They're going to obsessively and I mean obsessively call him Steve Rogers. >> Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve for a million times and then whenever Falcon's on the screen, they'll be like, "Captain America." Yes, Captain. They have to have Steve call him Captain America as well to make sure it's set in. >> Well, they'll do the joke where they're both in the same room, someone says, "Hey, Cap." And they both turn to look and that's like a really audience laugh. >> But I could buy that they're so [ __ ] insecure that they have two of them standing there. Someone says Captain America. And then Steve does not turn cuz he knows better. He knows better. He knows who they're talking to. And his fal >> a different version of him. No, wait. This would be a Steve Rogers that wouldn't be familiar with that change or or is this the original? >> I see what you're saying. But I guess 10 Well, I don't [ __ ] Well, >> because he would he would still be used to be being called Captain America, right? >> Yeah. Well, not for 10 years, I guess. >> Why do you say it so confidently? This is just just destroying my faith in the writing of this film. >> Listen, we know in that room when they say Captain America that the only person that should be turning to attention is John Walker, but they won't do that. >> Great. Oh, I wonder what his wonder what his fate in this movie will be. >> Yeah, there's no mention of him basically at all. >> They just mention we'll get like a line maybe. Maybe a com. It's crazy that this film is like guaranteed to make so much money. Like that's that is insane, isn't it? >> Superhero fatigue. As long as you've got either Spider-Man or a billion dollars to spend, you can still get people to come and watch your movies. >> Which makes you wonder about at at DC how how what the vibes are at the moment with uh >> Supergirl. You know >> what's the what is what is the new thing called from DC in in just for the record >> versus Gorilla Grod is the is a is a forthcoming television show that apparently James pitched >> apparently he pitched it at the same time as Lanterns. >> I want to be clear about this. Um, >> the people versus gorilla gro. >> You just listened if you're Is this like a Is this like a law drama like She-Hulk? >> The Jimmy Olsson show. >> I want to be clear, right? We We've just spent a very long time making fun of like every decision Marvel's just made. However, this is a huge movie starring a whole bunch of actors playing characters everyone wants to see in a big bombastic blah blah blah blah blah. It's like, yeah. And it's basically guaranteed to make money. Yeah. Yeah. We we get the strategy for the most part. Obviously, the strategy and the [ __ ] writing is bizarre. But meanwhile, >> like Hitler, >> go on. What do you want? I'm saying he's a bad strategist is what I'm all I'm saying. >> Bad. Oh, yeah. Well, I I was just going to say, so like the strategy on here, there's sense to be made of it. But in in the middle of the culture of Brand New Day, blowing up the box office, everyone's celebrating how amazingly written that is, and then getting ready for Doomsday. It's like, "Oh, by the way, guys, over at the other like on the other side of the street, the other store, if you want to pop in there, they're doing the People versus Gorilla Gro and Gorilla Man are going to court." >> What do you even say to that, dude? Like, >> that's Lanc Lens is doing well. It's doing so well. Wow. It did great. the highest for a uh the best debut ever for a DC studio show on HBO Max. Never mind that there are only two other shows that they made. >> There's only two other shows. Yeah, that was my favorite. Uh they're making jokes from the >> DC Studios and HBO are making cuck jokes. They were doing that the last day. They >> Oh, eating off another man's grill. They say that. And then um DC Studios said never eat off a man's off another man's grill. >> I need to see >> no self-awareness. >> I need I need to see those episode two numbers, man. I need to see that it's going down cuz surely it will >> for that show. That that first episode, by the way, of Lance was [ __ ] garbage. And it's not just it's not just the ending. The ending sucks to be, you know, to be clear, but like pretty much every single scene and every line of dialogue that was exchanged was in some way broken. I was kind of stunned by how broken the uh the general progression of events was in that first episode. >> Yeah. >> Horrible. >> The ending actually, you're right, is not the worst offense of that show. It's its entire existence. But um I think people were curious. You know, it's like, "Hey, it's a Green Lantern show. Let's check it out. It's on HBO, >> so uh we'll see if they stick with it. This is the guy who wrote the Watchman show. >> I'd be stunned if they did ever like an apparent appeal really to like >> I don't hear anyone talking about it. >> Twitter abstract. That's what they do. Which is usually the tell that it's something that kind of sucks. That's why everybody talked about Wonderman. In the abstract, it's good, but never anything very specific. Well, that that is the full leaks, but we're not over with our Doomsday uh adventure. Good. >> No. Um, but just to be clear, that was awful. >> I can't I can't wait to see it in theaters. >> Meant to be. It is going to be a tight It is going to be a catastrophe unlike anything that we've ever witnessed. And we've seen [ __ ] They're gonna stand up and cheer for Tobin Maguire. He's gonna get killed immediately. >> Oh, look. Here comes Hugh Jackman's Wolverine. They can they can help each go. What the >> You know, they were supposed to do a cameo in I can't remember if it was a Spider-Man or an X-Men movie, but they had worked it out with the studio and then they couldn't. >> Yeah. Toby McGuire Spider-Man I heard was supposed to be in Brand New Day >> at some point. >> No. Well, back in the day, Hugh Jackman and Toby Magcguire were supposed to have like a little cameo scene together. >> They had worked it out with the with both studios and they agreed on it and it didn't the filming didn't work out. Um, something about scheduling and the costume not fitting correctly. >> I be horseshit, >> right? >> No, my best guess would be that that was somewhere around Spider-Man 2 then because that was when Tobey Maguire was being super difficult. That's the whole the whole my back sequence is uh is directly making fun of that. >> Well, what I have for us is, and this isn't going to be new for a lot of people, but it kind of is for EFAP. We have not yet looked at the new Doomsday trailer, and now that you've heard all of the leaks, it'll make it even funnier. That's kind of the idea anyway. >> So, um >> supposed to unmute this one, right? >> Yes. You can put the volume back on. >> You don't have to, Nick. I literally I'm contracted to do so and there's a gun on me right now. I didn't want to say anything, but >> a James gun. >> Yes. Apparently, I need to start criticizing this heavily and I need to start praising DC's choices. >> A couple people on in the uh on in there. >> Well, get in all of you. >> Uh I guess I can repost it. >> Where am I supposed to be? >> Click this link and it'll take you to a website called Watch Together. >> Is that one of them there internet and internet sites? It sure is >> in the in the web world. >> Well, you find it. Has there been any sort of advanced word on what's being added to end game when that re-releases at the end? >> There's four minutes, right? There's four minutes of uh of extra stuff is what I saw the other day. >> That's such [ __ ] >> It's probably stuff. >> Yeah, cuz it's going to be the ending, right? A lot of that's concentrated on. >> Yep. in order to build the direct bridge overlooking all of the many many wonderful films of phases four and five that ties Endgame directly into Doomsday. >> It's so [ __ ] annoying because every film that came out between Endgame and Doomsday is basically useless. But those minutes are going to actually matter. It's like >> yes they are. And the fact that they're doing this >> scummy they they go back and they have old man Steve Biden being like you remember the Eternals neither do I. Tiamat, he's still out there. Um, and they're not releasing in Infinity War before that. I mean, Endgame's kind of a part two. >> Yeah, you need to see the part one. >> You want to put that much effort into it. >> Yeah. Well, um, I suppose >> it might be the biggest movie that month, by the way, because there's nothing coming out. So, >> let's see. Is everyone in? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11. Wait a minute. >> I'm in. >> 11. >> Well, that sounds good enough. Uh, obviously if you're not in, get in. But yes, first thing we're looking at, and I'll put the shield up because we'll need Well, uh, we might need it. I don't know. But it's fine. Don't worry about it. You can mostly see it anyway. First up is the new Doomsday trailer. Considering everything you just heard, let's see. Oh, look. It's the final shot of the movie. >> Yeah, >> probably. Probably. We'll see. >> Victor was always a smart. >> I like how [ __ ] terrible this castle looks. >> Dude, the whole thing >> looks not real. >> You haven't seen it yet. You said this whole trailer looks [ __ ] terrible. I was >> This looks like the uh >> this looks like the Emerald City from a Wizard of Oz project. >> What? Just cuz it's green, >> but also [ __ ] >> Um Whoa. Everyone's going to come back to the next. We're not bad mouthing the Emerald City, are we? >> I just said, but also [ __ ] >> actually had better special effects. >> I I mean, the green has a large amount to play with it, but it sort of has like the yellowy golden green kind of thing. >> I saw many people say that this trailer looked much better than the first one. >> Oh, about looked better than the first one. >> It doesn't look better. Yeah. Yeah, it does not look better. >> But which one's shorter? >> This one. >> That's the better. That's the better one. one is shorter. >> Yeah, I thought the second one was shorter. >> I thought the Maybe I'm misremembering. >> I could have swore this one was longer because there's actual dialogue. >> How is this one seven minutes? >> Because this is a this is a video that I have made. So, uh, >> okay. >> Victor was always the smartest guy in every room. Immediately made me think of um the meme with Michael Kr. Like Bane's the scariest guy I've ever seen. Also like the [ __ ] Victor was always so just he's super duper smart. We got to be got to be worried about it, you know, telling us >> cuz that's what you got to do more at this point. >> He used to be different. >> Well, we wouldn't know, would we? >> Same. >> He used to be kind. He used to be caring. >> Look, Magneto. >> Kenobi. That's just a funny just >> I mean everyone's made jokes about it, but it's just like does he does he know where he is? Does he know what's happening? >> No, >> he looks like he's about to disintegrate. >> Close the eyes and he's back in the show. >> I mean, he is going to be filming Gandalf scenes probably like the day after this. >> Oh, don't remind me. >> I could totally imagine it's just like got to get this [ __ ] done. Whatever. >> He's like, >> I think I feel it. Charles, Thanos is taking me now. It's like Thanos has been dead for 5 years. You're fine. That's just indigestion. >> Oh god, he's got a grip on my bladder again. >> Oh god. Oh, look. It's Gambit. >> A joke character. Joke sort of representation of a casting people would consider whatever, but now he's like a full-on dramatic character. I'm not sure how this happened, but there we are. Well, Marvel's doing fan casting, so why not? >> Well, did you see the [ __ ] about like >> to reality? >> The thing that was like, I'm so glad uh Remy took a really bad fan casting and Krinsk's Reed Richards and then killed him cuz that was funny. It's like, huh? >> Why was that a bad casting? It was like, >> well, we'll never know cuz he barely got the >> Oh, yeah. That's the other thing. >> He was still better than Pedro. Oh, I I think he's a better choice than Pedro Pascal for Reed Richard's uh the look or whatever. But it would have been nice to have given him a chance instead of just melting him or whatever. >> Oh well, >> spaghetti. >> Spaghettifying. Yes. >> And Captain Sher >> everything he loved. >> See, look, it's the kid and the wife. Oh jeez. They got killed it. And then there's a big Earth, I guess, or planet that it blew up. He's very sad about it. It's just, you know, with every frame you're like, uhoh. >> Yeah. What was the thing with the the mismatching eye colors that came out of this trailer? Wasn't there two shots of Doom and he had different colored eyes? >> Oh, I think I remember people talking about that. I got nothing for that. I don't know. >> No. >> Could be a magic thing. >> I had a theory that it's like the the facial thing is not he's not actually basically he's projecting a face that people want to see later in the movie or or wouldn't want to say. I was saying that it wasn't it's it's it's going to be like a facade. >> Uh that was my theory that that's that's how they're going to get out of it and bring him back as Tony. >> My theory was that VFX forgot, but yours sounds okay. >> Yeah, cuz I was at this point, you know, obviously they've already revealed that Robert Downey Jr. is supposed to be playing him, but they're going out of their way to not show anything with Robert Downey Jr. So, my guess I I really theorized that >> I don't know why there was a big announcement at Comic Con where a bunch of Doom people showed up on the stage and Robert Downey Jr. made a pretty big deal. >> Exactly. That's what I'm saying is that's why I think it's just a red a red herring. It's going to not really He's only going to be like a facade he puts on temporarily. That's my theory at least. Well, >> that's him. Uh and Robert Downey Jr. plays Doom about 60% of the movie. Rest of the time he's a voice actor. >> Yeah. He's got the best agent in Hollywood. >> Yay. Yay. Everyone get these >> much characters, right? >> All of them could die except for John Walker. >> Yeah. >> He was lost. But I did not realize. >> This is all very dramatic. Anything could happen. >> That he was broken. At least the costume's cool, right, Gary? >> Yep. Costume looks good. >> Got to take the win. >> Saved. >> It does. >> Actually, the question would have been a bit of a giveaway that he was like, if he shows up to work one day wearing that, it's like, well, there's this there's being lost and then is turning up looking like Space Hood. >> Yeah. You're like, are you okay? No, I'm fine. It's okay. >> Also, I am trying to pause. I always wore this. Don't you remember? >> Yeah. >> I think I think we should be okay on music and visual. If I pause enough, we should be fine. >> Oh, you're fine. >> This is just standard Latvarian uh garb. That's all it is. >> This who's whose universe you want to bet this one is? >> San Los Angeles. >> Oh, I mean, >> who cares? >> Where Gary Gary used to live there. That's all I know. It's just Los Angeles. >> Yeah. New Jerseyy's looking bad. >> That looks better than New Jersey. Trust me. >> Damn it. >> Like this is a picture of Detroit. This Detroit after the aliens. What's that from? Is that from uh scary movie? >> Oh yeah. Scary movie. I want to say four. It was like one one of the good jokes that we were like oh [ __ ] That was actually really funny. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. They say like this is Detroit and they go and he goes and this is Detroit where the aliens were attacking. >> Detroit. It was such a good joke. you do this. >> Oh, look. He's saying the ant family. Oh gosh. >> Make sure you watch Quantum Mania, everybody. >> All of you. >> Is Quantum Mania on the homework list? >> I think so. >> I didn't watch it. >> I don't think it is. I didn't watch it. >> Yeah, I'm pretty sure it wasn't, honestly. >> Are you going to be watching the homework list? uh >> before Doomsday. >> I'll make my own homework list. I know what's going to be relevant. But >> okay, >> [ __ ] their homework. They they changed their homework list cuz they don't even know what the [ __ ] they're doing. >> As if as if anybody who made that homework list could tell me >> like if the person who made that list could tell me what an incursion is that covers all the films, then yes, I would watch it. But they can't cuz no one can. >> Okay, so I'll rephrase the question. Is your homework list going to be as painful as theirs? probably more painful to be fair. I'm going to rewatch the Fox X-Men. I'm already doing that. So, that's that's kind of fun if anything, you know. Yeah. >> But, um no, there's there's some Marvel stuff I'm going to have to rewatch. Not looking forward to it. >> Have lived. >> Oh, yeah. So, I guess Magneto is destroying um one of the universes as well. He's even mentioned that in an interview. So, how very sad. I hope it's not another universe that we care about. plays the Nazi universe. >> Dude, he just like for no reason at all says he's destroying Tim Burton's Batman universe. And we're like, what? >> I got to do it. I got to do it. >> No, but all the gangs will die. >> Look, it's Loki. >> But now you must give them back. >> Hey, Cyclops. You guys like him? >> Yeah. >> Jangle the keys. >> Ryan Singer didn't like him very much. >> I will say this. At least at least the costume's accurate. We got that going. >> Yeah. Took them 25 years people glaze this shot that we're about to see here. >> Why are they glazing it? That looks terrible. >> How did they see it? >> That looks terrible. >> I love how it's so obvious when it transitions between Floop CGI Doom and like an actual person there like a real tangible human being. You know, >> this is the problem. People are like, you know, oh, what what happened there? Did he get hit out of the room by Mjolnir and Steve and then he like into a different doom because he's using multiple universal dooms? >> Well, this is >> Yeah, but like doesn't it doesn't it look kind of stupid if like you transition from a rapid fast movement to a character just kind of gradually sort of standing up a little bit more compared to I don't know just getting someone you know just jump and then you know it just looks so bad. It looks so clunky. DID YOU DO THIS? >> YEAH, it was him. It was probably him. Sorry. And we got the epic gray verse that we've now seen in lots of stuff. I'm surprised they actually did end up with this in terms of like you guys know everyone hates you for this, right? >> But it's so much cheaper. >> I mean, they're going to they're going to go see the movie anyway. So, >> we spent a billion already. Let's just spend 1.1 billion to put them somewhere else. >> N they're going to be in theaters. Well, you will beg for hell long before I grant it. >> That's not a good line. >> No. And it's obviously trying to do Infinity War again, even with a jump. It's like, shut up. >> You're not You're not How dare you stand where he stood? Get out of here. >> And like I don't know. This to me is borderline really well. I think I think it kind of looks like I don't know compared to just at the beginning of um Infinity War where where Thanos just like grabs you know Hulk and then like moves his arms away. That's like a better like to me it's almost I don't even know what this means. >> No. How could you know? >> Why would he? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. Compared to just Oh, no. I can understand this cuz this is just a normal thing expanded to two very strong people. And and in this case it's like I don't know man thought like why don't you just like try again? like just clearly isn't working. So, you should probably just try moving the axe. >> In Infinity War, this attack was like enough to overpower the gauntlet, right? When he throws the axe. So, what is anybody else going to do? Like, if >> this attack from Thor doesn't do anything to Doom, then >> what 99% of the other Avengers like their attacks would do nothing. >> Yeah. >> You should have a name for the balls. >> And then we're going to get to a point where he does just outright win. can go outside of the multiverse, rewrite everything. And we're supposed to believe Tobey Magcguire, Spider-Man, and some plucky teenagers are going to take him out. It's like, okay, all right. You know, maybe it's possible. Throw Hugh Jackman, Wolverine, and I think we got a chance. I magic [ __ ] right? Like it's just, you know, he's yelling, so he might have a shot here. You're like, why? He's electric god man. He either does it or doesn't, I guess. But Doom is Doom men. Is it the scaling has been useless in this universe for ages, but you know. >> Mhm. >> Oh well. This pissed me off in Endgame when Thanos took out the three of them so easily all at once. That was so lame. Like uh and he did it with his wacky double Darth Maul blade. know I'd always assume power was helping out but seemingly that [ __ ] >> Well, you know the three of them like come on, dude. You had like an extended boss fight with just Iron Man. >> Now you Iron Man is [ __ ] >> Tell answers to me. >> They're the Sentinels. Oh, >> this is so ugly, dude. >> It's so Yeah. They could have made anything. >> You have computers. You can make anything you can imagine. You could animate it. You You've got the money. You've got the people in the dungeons who want to see their families that will do anything you want tell them to do. >> And this is what they chose to make. This was their vision. >> By the way, >> he's doomed, by the way. >> Sorry. Doesn't it doesn't it just look AI to everyone else? >> That's what everyone's been saying, too. Yes. The problem is you can you can watch AI trailers and they look better than this. But that's the thing before situation >> AI learned from watching Marvel. That's why everything it does looks like Marvel. >> So we have a chance for a little while. >> Is that it? >> Yeah, that's it. You know, we got everything else in the breakdown of the leaks. So, this is uh this Yeah, that's it. >> And it's going to make so much money, but it's also not going to make as much money as you'd think because of how much it cost, which a lot of people don't even know about. >> It's not going to net a lot of money. It's going to grow. >> Infinity Vision. >> Infinity Vision. like some weird IMAX like sort of cuz uh cuz Dune's got all the IMAX screens, right? >> Do they have all premium formats though or is it just IMAX? >> I I I thought I I don't know. I don't I don't even care about like this [ __ ] anymore. Like IMAX and all that. Like I don't know. It's just [ __ ] stupid to me. >> I thought you were talking about Marvel. Like does it have IMAX? I don't I just don't give a [ __ ] about this entire genre anymore. I would wonder about IMAX after after the Odyssey after people saying >> you had to see it in a format that is inaccessible to most people in the world >> and that doesn't change the terrible [ __ ] script. So it makes no difference. >> The square doesn't make the writing better. >> You're right. >> Mhm. >> No, you truly to get the true >> I mean I watch I watch is a square. That's a That's got a square aspect ratio, but you don't need to watch it in IMAX to get the square. >> True. >> This movie has me thinking about 9 millimeter. >> We are doomed. >> That's the doomsday. Oh my gosh, it's a countdown. But wait, if you play the video again, will the numbers be the same? >> No, the numbers are from when the trailer got released. I think they have like a countdown that's just running forever on YouTube. >> I don't think Brags ever would have figured that out, >> though. All All recordings of this update in real time no matter where they are and what they're doing. >> I don't know what kind of space magic they have. >> You see how we're paused right now? But yeah, it uh once once it's unpaused, it'll update immediately. >> It'll it'll it'll skip forward. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like a live stream. >> So, this is the announcement. >> I actually might put the cover up for this. I don't even know if I'm allowed to have this or not, but Ryan Ran put it out on Twitter. Okay. So, I assume I'm allowed. >> Dude, I don't I don't want to do this. >> They've already done filming. This is silly. >> Or maybe the next one is called Deadpool and Spider-Man and literally everyone except Wolverine. >> But to be clear, both trailers have not shown any Deadpool or Wolverine. And yet everyone's discussed the [ __ ] huge prologue leak that Wolverine and Deadpool going to [ __ ] kill Spider-Man. So there's hope, right? It's like, well, if they're not in it, then that won't happen. And then they're like, we're in it. You're like, "Oh, >> I'm uh I'm getting real tired of the uh the Deadpool like stick." >> Yeah, >> I'm getting real tired. >> It gets old. >> It gets old in the comic books. It will get old in the movies. >> It was good when it was good, but it's not good. Hasn't been good for a >> while. So, yeah, that even like that single line there is overdone. It's like you could have ended it with it would be the next movie will be called Deadpool and Spider-Man. That's the joke. But he carries on because it's funny, I guess. Except that it really isn't because it's boring. >> Ryan Reynolds has always killed jokes by going a little too long with them. That's that's kind of his stick. >> But isn't the next movie actually going to be Deadpool and Spider-Man? >> Isn't that the joke? Like, is does Deadpool survive in the battle world or no? Uh, can't. Oh, so what I meant to say as part of those leaks was that uh when Deadpool comes back apparent, this is something I read in one of the leaks, it wasn't in all of them, that he's like sad about Wolverine dialing dialing dying and then he's um he goes back to his universe while they solve their problems in theirs. And it's just like your universe, how do you even Why is How is everyone able to just jump univers? And it's like I Yeah, >> he just never comes back. >> Yeah. Wolverine dies, but Deadpool just goes back to his Fox universe and we don't see him again. Yep. >> Okay. >> Hence, well, so can you see how this makes a lot of sense that they were not really even fully planned really, but then Devil Wolverine does amazing and so it's like we'll pop him in like the beginning. >> Remember Mer the chair stream? Remember the infamous >> I do remember the infamous chair stream. Yes. So, to show you how quick they were putting this thing together, um they had uh Hugh Jackman and and Ryan Reynolds chairs ready to go, but they couldn't put them out because they hadn't signed their contracts yet. >> Yeah. >> So, they were they were announcing everything and they didn't have everybody signed. >> Maybe got to the that put in the spam folder by accident. >> Maybe. >> Maybe. But >> that's got to give a lot of power to the the actor, right? Like if you're announcing me and I'm not even in it yet. You haven't signed a deal with me. You announced me. I want more money. >> It just Yeah, exactly. Oh, you really want me? Yeah. Okay. >> And Yeah. So that's why it seems like Deadpool Wolverine is stapled into the movie at a time that could easily have been cut, you know? It's just And >> it's going to be great. It's going to be great. >> And this isn't And this isn't like a like a a jarring tonal shift or anything. No. Like we're still having fun, guys. I know. I know the universe is getting like ended and whatever. >> Imagine you watch Logan >> and you see like the horrific brutal film and then the death and the the end of the X-Men. Then you go into Deadpool Wolverine all goofy wacky blah blah blah >> and then you move into this where they have their dramatic death again. You be like, "What the [ __ ] man? >> What do you want me to feel?" >> Cuz I can't feel anything. >> Nothing. >> Whatever generates the most money every single month. >> Like what? That's both hurtful and spiteful. >> Ask the question. >> Why are you sitting? Hey, Kevin. Hey, D23. Hope you're all having a great time. I just uh I just wanted to check in. Just totally unprompted and uh just wondering if you might need some help. >> Again, he's already highlighted why this is like nonsense and probably not the way to have taken the joke cuz you've already filmed and you're already in. Why why didn't you make the joke something else? >> Yeah. >> Like they literally here making a video asking, "Hey, can we be in the movie?" Like, you're in the movie. >> It's like when you see gamer chat and stuff, right? Where we're They're pretending to be playing the game. >> Yeah. >> Oh my god. Go to the top left. Oh, here comes the guy. >> Yep. >> Look out. There he is. Spider-Man. Here he comes. >> That's a cool fireplace. Rounding >> out >> the cast. >> The rounding out the cast. Dude, they've got like 28 people. Why the hell do they need us? >> Self-aware joke. Therefore, it's not a problem anymore. Which, by the way, happens like five different times in Deadpool Wolverine. Basically like, haha, we're we're doing this shitty script choice, but we said we're doing it, so it's okay. Don't worry about it. >> We're the golden ones. We're special. Now follow the script. >> So what do you call it when you lampshade a lampshade, >> right? Like >> at that point, it doesn't make it better. It doesn't make it funnier. It doesn't make it more enjoyable. It doesn't make me, you know, especially if they actually if those leaks are true. Oh my god. If they're actually what happens, right? This doesn't make it good. I'm not suddenly enjoying it because I go back and like that's insane. Why? Why you nitpicking? No answer. >> Okay. So, anyway, if you guys need some help rounding out the cast, I uh I'd love to join. And I don't know, I might be able to convince Ryan to appear in Avengers Doomsday. But no pressure. I hate you so much, man. He's not even portraying how this would actually work, which is that they have major leverage because of Deadpool and Wolverine. And he's [ __ ] Hugh Jackman who's obsessed with playing Wolverine. They can't even recast Wolverine because of him. >> No, because it's almost like they're still doing the joke that they were doing with the first Deadpool movie. Oh, man. You know, >> I really want to be like a part of this. It's like, dude, you were just in the movie that made like >> one and a half billion dollars. >> I know. Me, too. >> Cool. So yes, uh that's that they're in. Great. Everyone's very happy about that. And then yeah, these are the costume reveal of the Doom Witches, which again just completely matches the uh >> the Doom Witches. >> Latvari witches. Oh, we to assume Well, there's like suggestions in a second of who you think these would be, but >> yeah. Oh, I wonder what fun names they have. >> Speculation is uh Tinky, Winky, Lala, and Po, among others. What about Dipsy? You missed him out. >> No, I don't think they're doing Dipsy. That's They don't like You can't You can't say Dipsy in 2026. >> Yeah, that's [ __ ] up. >> Oh [ __ ] >> Some Some people are Dipsy. You can't say Dipsy. >> Strange. >> He's got a little third eye socket cuz he has the third eye. That's how you know it's him. >> Great. And that's speculation who they would be. >> Girl Loki. >> Yeah. >> Right. Not sure which is the most confusing one out of these. Does Wanders's dead? Well, she's not dead. She just exploded into redness, which you know is >> anything in this world. >> No, it doesn't. You didn't see a body. >> There's one from a TV show that relatively few people would have seen. And there's one from a postredit scene that most people would have forgotten. And then there's one who disappeared in that postredit scene many years ago and has not been heard from since. >> Well, uh, Gary, do you know anything to necessarily say that? Do we see any of their faces or are they always going to be masked up and therefore not even necessarily in the movie? >> I I don't know. And I asked and he uh my buddy hadn't seen that part >> cuz saves you money on actors. >> I mean Benach hasn't been anywhere near the marketing for any of this. So >> no. >> And he's like their biggest player who's like a mainstay and actually in the story as well like not getting dragged back in. It was always very confusing that he's just there and they didn't seem to use him, but instead they're obsessing over everything else. I don't know. Seems weird. >> The only one that doesn't make sense, somebody actually just said it in the chat. Why would they put Scarlet Witch in an orange cloak? That's the one that like the other ones like Enchantress Clea that those ones match up color-wise. >> The hair is orange. That's why the actual Scarlet Witch color is is Scarlet >> in part of the name. I mean, the Scarlet Witch that. Well, that's how you know Dr. Doom's a villain. He didn't even give her her color. >> Very mean of him. But hey, maybe maybe these aren't who we think they are. Maybe they're someone else. >> But like, who what like what else could what's you know what I mean? Like why would >> I think we might just have situation, >> you know? Why would it be absolutely nothing? Like >> Yeah, Nights of Ren is a good example. >> That's that's a good example, but that's Star Wars. Marvel aren't like even the incompetence in Marvel is not the kind of incompetence of um of Star Wars. I don't think it's it's that kind, you know, but then again, I mean, Gao was introduced and we will never see that character ever again. So, >> maybe one of the the MCU incompetence is generally just uh taking the wrong lessons when something succeeds. So, and they're doing that in droves with this, you know, like, oh, you know, multiverse, we brought people back. That's what people want to see. It's exactly that's So we're just going to do it times 50. >> So anyway, and this is an older bit, but it's funny right now. Alan [ __ ] says because yeah, Nightcrawler is in this film, by the way, in case you didn't realize because it didn't get mentioned at all. Uh Alan Cummings says he doesn't know who he was acting with half the time when filming Avengers Doomsday. Quote, "I did the entire film in isolation. Lots of green screen, face replacement. They even gave characters fake names. I don't know who I was acting with half the time. That's supposedly Anyway, >> that's the kind of thing you want to hear for sure. >> Yeah, it's great. >> Wasn't this the sort of the the panicky followup because he did say specifically in an earlier interview that he was fight I can't remember who he said he was fighting and then he got told off for that and then this story came out. So, I thought this in in the grand narrative of Doomsday was like, "Oh [ __ ] no, he accidentally gave us a spoiler, so now they're pretending that he didn't." Well, >> that's funny. I wonder what percentage of the people who are going to see this movie like read the tweets about it and actually know slashcare about any of the little spoiler details that come out. >> I'd say the vast majority of people don't care. The vast majority >> you'd say it's under or over 3%. >> I I'm glad you said 3% because I would have said definitely less than 5%. But once you're at 3% and now it's starting to get to a point where I'm not sure >> five I I thought about saying five, but even I was like it's not it's there's no way it's one and 20. There's no way. >> Nope. >> Yeah, that's too many. That's too many. >> But uh yeah, >> people don't know the difference between Marvel and DC. >> That's right. >> That is >> uh waited 23 years to see my king on screen again only for this [ __ ] to pull up looking like be Arthur. I thought that was pretty funny. for those who don't know beyond. >> But hey, you know. >> Yeah. >> So, considering what was just said, Sebastian Stan says he has no idea what Avengers Doomsday is about. Quote, "We didn't have a full script. We were just shooting scattered scenes. It's a different way of working, continuous, constantly evolving. The producers didn't want us to read it in its entirety to avoid journalists asking questions. I've been following this rule for 15 years, so I'm used to it." >> Poor guy. The why he just looks constantly bored and depressed in every scene he's in now is cuz like he has no clue what he's doing. >> It was funny in the Thunderbolts though where he just could not give a [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> Watch him in the Cap trilogy and he's going all out. Watch him in Thunderbolts. It's like someone told him your role forever more is just going to be to walk around vaguely and sit down. Maybe >> after Civil War, they never really knew what to do with this character. He was awful in the Falcon and the >> His [ __ ] story got stolen. It's ridiculous. >> Yeah. >> The amount of times across uh the Cap trilogy that he holds the shield, it bugs the hell out of me whenever you rewatch it. You're like, "Oh, you know, they're going somewhere with this." And then they were told, "Nah, it's not happening. Sorry." >> Well, my uh favorite was like the explanation that he can't have the shield because like the American public wouldn't accept it and then they elect him to the US Senate. >> Yes. The congressman. >> He shot JFK. He shot JFK and became a congressman. But platoon, do you think it's >> meta commentary? >> Do you think that he and Magneto are going to share stories about killing JFK? Because they both did. >> So, how did you do it? >> Well, no, he was trying to save JFK, right? >> Yeah, but he he bent the bullet, but it still got him. So, >> so how are you supposed that shot the bullet and then >> Yeah, they say So, they say that uh the bullet he tried to stop him from getting shot, but it looked like he ended up killing him cuz he bent the bullet. It bent while it was going toward and ended up hitting him anyway cuz I think I think Magneto >> Are you talking about Magneto? What are you talking about? I'm sorry I missed that. >> He bent it right into JFK's head. >> He was trying to save him apparently, but it didn't go very well cuz he was pro >> He was a mutant. That was the reason it was he was one of us, Charles. That was a whole thing. >> But um that's just hilarious actor though. >> How are they supposed to I'm sorry. >> That means that Winter Soldier shot the bullet and then Magneto bent it such that it went into JFK because it was going to miss. even though they're from different universes. So, [ __ ] it. It doesn't matter. >> So, if you're at one of these in Doomsday, >> no. >> Oh, >> how are you supposed to have any sort of subtext, right? How are you supposed to like play your character when >> you don't know what >> when you don't know who they are, >> right? I just don't understand how you would want to like like making the film just from a a structural standpoint why you would do it this way. >> Is it really so bad that a spoiler gets out and we know that there are three Spider-Man, right? Like is it really that bad that you would rather make a worse film where your actors don't know anything and can't do anything and are just paring words that they don't understand the meanings of back at you? >> Oh, they don't care about quality. Don't worry about that. It's because they're writing the script as they go and and they're they're doing this weird patchwork attempt to make the story happen as the CGI people and the set people and the actors and the legal team are all trying to scramble together something resembling a film. It is a [ __ ] show, I'm sure, over there. And also to prevent leaks, but lol here we are. I >> mean, is the argument to say this is how we've always done it, so the quality could still like be all over the place? I think there's something to be said about that. They've been doing it this way for so long that all of the creatives and the people who are doing the logistics of the film making and stuff who are passing down the orders, they're probably mostly the same people and they just keep doing what they've been doing. You know, the money printer keeps, you know, burning and worring. So, at least for the most part, >> if you can't fail for doing a bad job, then they just stay and those bad practices become like internalized culture. All righty. So, there's another trailer for another Marvel. A new Marvel is out. A different Marvel. This one regards >> um a certain robot and uh also >> Oh, okay. >> Someone else is >> trying to get in here and I'm going to have to uh I'm going to have to ditch one of you's one of the most unlucky souls. And in this case, >> I can go. That's all right. >> Well, I'm glad I capture for uh for all that pain and torture. You seem to have made it work through this time real well. You always bring me the best experiences that I'm always so happy to have had. Um, in all seriousness though, right? Like I I've really enjoyed being on uh on EAP for the last god, seven and a half. >> It hurts so good. Yeah, I know what you mean. >> Yeah. You know, I mean um you guys have always been just some of the things that I look forward to the most. Oh, no. >> You know, I'd like to think that uh you've become my friends, and that's, you know, an awesome thing to be able to say about being uh online, especially considering like how we met, right? >> So, I'm I'm pretty happy uh I'm happy to know all of you, and I'm happy you're still here doing this because it's um it's a good time and it's a good, you know, enjoyable experience for everybody involved. >> Well, we appreciate. >> Enjoy 450, right? >> Well, yeah. bond with Theo. >> We will indeed be dragging you back for some horrifying video essay in future, just so you know. >> Excellent. I'm so excited. So, we'll figure out what's in the [ __ ] triangle. >> No. >> All right. Have a good one, guys. >> See you. >> Totaloo. >> There he goes. We'll miss him. But we getting uh we getting somebody else. someone who hasn't been on in a while because of scheduling issues. And boy, do I hate scheduling issues, but they happen and that's it. That's how it goes. >> Though I will repost that old link cuz I feel like we have to do this every time someone joins. Otherwise, it gets too confusing. >> But before we start her up, >> um, yeah, I'm just, you know, checking, making sure everything's okay. How is everybody doing? You all right? >> I'm I'm doing all right. Doing okay. Fantastic. >> My my keyboard stopped working, but other than that, it's Well, yeah, you know, that happens. >> Apparently not. And it's >> Well, howdy do, how you doing? >> Hello. Yes, it is um 4:30 a.m. here, but pleased to be joining at this uh time just after >> I was wondering that like because of all of this, I have to keep track in my mind of like all the different time zones. That's why when you said like, "Oh, I'm available for a bit now." I was like, "Why?" >> Well, I just got I just got off a stream, right? And so it's either tomorrow where I'm in the middle of a video or it's now or it's like, "Okay, so um I don't have to worry about anything else tomorrow. I can just get up and cope with it." >> Well, you're just in time to talk with us about the trailer for Vision Quest. We only bring the best stuff to you. >> Oh god. >> Well, I mean, Jaden Sper. >> Yeah. Yeah. you know. Yes. >> So, um I assume you've clicked the link and if you have, we can get going. >> But I hardly know her. >> Oh, boy. >> Before you started working here, >> I remember when you'd come in all the time with that red head, >> you know. Um I don't think I I don't think re-watching of um >> Now that's a multiverse story we should all be watching, but >> that's a weird thing to carve into a table. Um, I like Infinity War and still do, but man is it annoying how much they nerfed the [ __ ] out of Vision in that movie to like make the events happen cuz they get attacked and like some dude stabs him and you're just like, "Wait, what?" He's like, "I can't phase anymore." You're like, "What? Why is Why is that how that works?" He's just like, "It just does." Shut up. >> Was a different person back then. Also, yeah, for people who don't remember, he just >> you have you have Vision died because of Thanos, and then you have griefstricken Wander creates her version of him inside West View with her kids, quote unquote, and then they rebuild Vision uh sword to be a weapon. And >> you can't leave out that she enslaved a bunch of men with children. Everyone, that's okay. Everybody know you got to bring them up. >> Yeah. Wanda, >> she was grieving. Okay. >> Yeah, she's going through a lot post whatever. >> That was the weird thing about that series. There was a specific ser um advert where they said that people will eat magic and it will make them die while they feel hungry. Uh and so they they deliberately showed you how horrific what she was doing to them was and continued doing it anyway. I can't believe that show had someone say, "Please just let us die." It was like, "Guys, I think we need to rewrite this." But um yeah, so the big the scary vision weapon that they recreated from his pieces then came in to like do a fight and fake vision made of her memories fought him and they discussed the ship of Thesus. I don't know if you guys remember that. And then he touches him inappropriately and it and it launched all of Wander's version of Vision's heads memories into the recreated weapon vision from sword thus re resetting him rebooting him and he just wandered off and that's where we're picking up >> quite surprised. >> He hasn't been able. >> No, he's not done any This is the first we've heard of him since. He's just chilling out. >> Yeah. And you will need to rewatch all of that to understand this because this is as they put it themselves the kind of like the third part in the trilogy of wondrousness that is one division agatha all along and this >> platoon groundbreaking trilogy. That's what they said. >> Groundbreaking. Damn. I felt Agatha all along was very groundbreaking. It gave us one of our favorite characters. That being of course Mr. Chart. >> Yes. >> Incredible. Uh that was I'm glad I watched it. Glad we was there. iconic generation. >> Anyone waiting for you tonight? >> No, >> there he is. Come vision. >> Yeah. >> Nice to have him back. >> Is sword going to come after him by any chance? >> Nah. >> I don't know who's who cares. >> Sword is around. >> Oh no, it's a Stranger Things Mr. Stranger Things house. >> Oh, it is. >> What was he called in there? >> Home is joking. >> I don't even remember anymore. Oh, his name was like what was the name when he was pretending to be a goodman but he was an evilman still. I don't remember. >> Mr. Waldrig. >> Loads of people saying Vea. No, he Mr. Wats. That is it, isn't it? Yeah. >> That's rings of power. Vecar is going to rings of power. That's >> Isn't that like a candy ever in Britain land? What's it? They kind of know what you know those um you know the things that you pack packages with the polystyrene little ball things. It's like that but lightly dusted with cheese. >> Oh, okay. They're like Cheetos. >> A cheese doodle. >> Yeah, Cheetos. Yeah, it's like that. >> Okay. >> That looks bad to look bad now cuz it's a it's in his head. >> It's supposed to look bad >> now. Yeah. >> Why didn't they stylize it to where it intend? It looks like they tried to make it real. But >> let them use the excuse. Okay. The CGI budget is totally >> Why did they want to use the excuse? Why are we supposed to be in his head imagining super villains? Why >> does he look like a Nazi who escaped the Nuremberg trials in Peru? >> He kind of is though. Like he he knows what Wanda did. He's not helping anybody with his powers. He's just off on his own. >> Who am I? >> Who am I? This is >> Is this going to be like a slice of life show? Uh, maybe. Oh god, I hope not. >> A slice of vision. >> I was an Avenger, >> but I'm not a hero. >> Remember the better days. >> Oh, I'm not a hero. I I must be pathetic and useless and terrible at everything and everyone must crush me every opportunity. >> Groundbreaking television. >> That makes you wonder, doesn't it? Like if the if the point of the season is going to be that he's back in, he's like, I do need to do stuff. I need to help and blah blah blah. And it's just going to be like, how are you going to fit in though? The story's not got room for you, Vision. Like, do you know what your girlfriend did >> since you last saw her? >> He doesn't get mentioned in the leaks. All right. So, he ain't making it to Doomsday >> anymore. Have his face, but not his virtue. >> Not in Secret War. >> His name. His name. >> That's >> okay. So, you know who that is? >> Well, cuz that's the actor that played Jarvis in the Captain Carter show as well, right? >> That's Jimmy Carter. >> Welcome. >> It's Friday. It's Jarvis and then the two robots. Um, >> yeah. You and Dummy. >> You and Dummy. Yeah. >> And we've got one more in the attic hiding >> vision. >> This house is getting crowded. Vision. >> I will say the one thing I'm kind of like I want to see some James Sper doing James Spa things. So, you know, there's that. >> Ultron human avatars only. >> Sir, I cannot overstate the dangers of keeping him around. >> Yeah. >> Uh, I don't know why this is happening, but it is. Um the Irish name choose anyone. >> Yes, but he is a dad, papa, people. >> I don't know. >> Look, look, my favorite my favorite villains of all time are um from Aliasone. No, Ovin Sloan and um >> Yes. >> Yes. This is way too late for me to actually come up with names. Um, Raymond Readington. There we go. >> Words. There you go. Got it. >> Yes, exactly. Raymond Readington is one of my favorite villains. And for him to be wasted on the fact that I am now a cl a digital clone of somebody who now says pe as a joke >> is like you could do of all the things you could have done with this guy, you chose this. Like >> at this point, there is no point in actors. You just choose a person and it will be enough. So, um, they were kind of trapped within a concept, right? Uh, because they are really pushing this as a trilogy probably so people will watch Juan Division. >> Well, I don't really know >> to make it sound like it's more important or more planned than it was, I assume. >> Yeah, it it it wasn't planned. So, it was how do we attach it? It's specifically why they took Terry. This is Terry Matales. So, uh, Kevin Feige saw what he did with Bicquard season 3 and basically wants him to do the same thing is fix something that's [ __ ] up and but you have to do it within the parameters of the show. So, they're going to kind of riff off the TV thing from Wanda Division a little bit in the beginning. Uh, >> liked. >> Well, it's worth mentioning, right? Like, if you're going to give him something to hopefully fix, even if you made this a masterpiece, it's it's just vision in a house. like, you know, it's not going to really do much for the MCU >> and it's going to be a lot of that. What they left out of the trailer is Jakcasta is going to be in it. So, yeah. >> Well, that's a girl or girl Ultron basically. >> Like Star Trek was built on >> decades of history, whereas this is built on a couple of movies that no one really cares about. Well, I'm just saying like chat, for example, if you said this is the third entry to a trilogy, they'd be like, "What? >> What are you talking about?" >> They never guessed that Agatha all along was the middle. >> No, no one would. >> Was there anything like that movie? >> Agatha Allong had was Mr. Shart and it's because of us. >> To the chat real quick. She will not have um she will not have Wasp's mind, but there will be deep cuts in this. Uh Jack Hammond, who is the original Human Torch, who was an android, who you saw briefly in Captain America uh first avenger, uh there will be some cuz that's what Vision's body originally came from in the comic books, but I don't know if they're actually going to make it cannon or not. >> So the wait, so when you say deep cuts, is this going to be deep cuts to things that I have seen and will understand, or is this going to be deep cut? A lot of stuff you will it will be like that I get and it will probably mean nothing to the plot. >> Will we be to watch your video about this? Okay. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Do we know if this show is going to address Vision's uh lack of of involvement in Multiverse of Madness? >> Probably not. >> Uh probably not. >> I don't even know that he's going to want to address anything >> like this. It was meant to introduce other things and it uh it was meant to reintroduce Hydra and that got taken out. >> Yeah, it's just in it's introducing new things just in time for them to erase them all. >> I was going to say this is a dead end show. It can't do anything. >> It is. It it's before Doomsday, right? Yeah. >> Yes. So, they changed plans and that's why they had to This might be the last uh one of the last Disney Plus like superhero series. >> Well, because they're stupidly expensive and they make no money because there was the story about Star Wars probably pivoting to animation primarily for its for its TV shows at this point because they are really expensive. >> Um I don't think there's anything else on the docket as far as I'm aware of from from Marvel in terms of TV production. Oh, I don't count. >> Nobody counts. >> That was filmed at the same time as season two. >> Oh, don't bring that up. >> But does that mean that Doomsday was originally about Hydra? >> No. If this was >> No, they were going to introduce Hydra beyond whatever the Kang [ __ ] was going to be. >> Yeah, Doomsday was It's all repurposed Kang stuff that they couldn't use those. Yeah, they can carry it forward to the field. I'm just trying to I'm getting sort of like secondhand trauma on the part of the writers when you sit down with the studio head and you're right, you're bringing back the Nazis and then two weeks later, okay, you're not bringing back the Nazis now. It's like I what I'm really confused as to what anything what what am I supposed to do with this information? because it seems like that's such an important plank of what your show should be to suddenly get rid of it and then to have to redo everything into whatever the [ __ ] this show ends up being. Why can't they just plan? >> That's a great question. >> I'm a stranger to myself. >> That family wasn't real. >> You sure about that? >> Like there might be an aspect for me of enjoying this of just James Ba [ __ ] around. If we can get a bit of that, I can I can just enjoy that in isolation cuz the disconnection is [ __ ] real at this point. >> What's the thing is is that like anything that could be presented in Marvel as like a pitch for it's going to be like this idea, you know, and this idea seems different to the normal idea for, you know, a Marvel TV show movie. It's like, yeah, but the problem is it doesn't really matter seemingly like ever. um you know, Wonderman, it's like ah yes, Wonderman, that's going to be like a different kind of show. And it just has a lot of the same problems that like all of these things do. >> So, what I can tell you is when they poached Terry Matelis, which they absolutely did, uh Kevin Feige took the opportunity to to take him away. Kurtzman wasn't going to keep him anyway, >> uh cuz he was pissed off because he cuz Well, yeah, I know, right? Um, this wasn't the first project they offered. Like he had a pick of some projects. >> Oh, >> yeah. >> And this was like 2B. >> I won't say I won't say three, but it's 2B. >> Uh, didn't get didn't get the first one, which uh was laid out and written out, too. >> Is this show just going to be seeing like Vision recollect moments of his life and then talking it out with Ultron? Because that's what I'm getting so far. >> Yes. Yes. It's going to be father-son story. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Which could be it could be interesting. It could be disconnected, quirky, and it's allowing and if they don't play too much on its connections and if it doesn't have to lead anywhere else, then allowing Matalus to sort of, you know, go a bit quirky and high concept. I could make for an interesting TV show. Um, it'll it'll only be harmed by any ties it has to [ __ ] Agatha all along. >> Oh, yeah. And that thing is is one of the most compartmentalized sequestered shows of them all. It barely has anything to do with anything. >> But like but every everything that has been made in like the last however many years has just been bad. Like I you know I don't even get excited for this. >> Like it's just Yeah. I it really like Deadpool and Wolverine like killed killed it I think for me like in terms of any um any amount of like >> hope that I could have. Yeah, cuz by the time that by the time that we got to Deadevil it's like I I knew that it was over like you know I I don't I was not hyped for Daredevil. Like it's just like no it's just it's it's we're done you know like in ter in terms of any Eddie's it's Yeah. >> Whoa. Who just who's opening up? >> What? >> It may have been randomly my keyboard. Um I didn't mean to do that. >> It's all good. It's all good. >> I So I spilled coffee over my keyboard yesterday. So my keyboard is randomly pressing buttons. Yeah. >> What's got all that extra energy now? >> Yeah. >> Certainly a whole year. And rather than just get a new one, I now just turn it off whenever I have to do anything important. It's not the best. >> I keep randomly screenshotting things. That's what I also haven't um I haven't seen Agatha Allong. What exactly about Agatha Allong >> uh funnels into this into this show? >> Uh >> nothing from what I'm seeing so far. >> Well, there's the two connection of the two kids. Yeah. Tommy and Billy. Um, canon speed >> a machine called vision. >> Oh, there we go. >> Like 4 seconds. I would have saw that. >> Yeah. I mean, I don't know what they're going to This is This is the problem. It comes back to again and again again. It's like the story ends here. What's the going to What's the punctuation of this? >> It's a boy. >> Yeah. If he if he doesn't show up in Secret Wars, it's kind of lame. >> How is this possible? Oh, this is going to be one of those nonsense shows like Loki where nothing makes sense and things just happen for any random reason whatsoever and there's just no like connecting tissue to any two events. Things are just going to it's just one of those things just happen shows. It's going to be miserable >> considering a lot of it's in a computer's brain. I guess they that is just you can do anything. Uh but yeah, hopefully hopefully hopefully >> if there was one show that they could just write with AI then this would be it. Yeah, just let any random thing happen. Who cares? >> You may think Rags is being a bit of a negative Nelly, but he's watched a lot of uh Disney Plus Marvel. >> Some of them are like Agatha all along was nonsense, too, cuz it was so weird, but it was like funny bad in a way. It's just so cuz it was so absurd. >> I I uh that >> has terrible taste in TV shows. >> Mr. Shart was brilliant. I will give it >> Mr. Mr. was like actually an insane highlight, but I I thought the show was like entertainingly bad. >> Um I I thought it I but I I I totally understand why it would be miserable. But the point being some shows like Loki was incomprehensible in its badness. You were just constantly asking why are we here? What's going on? Was there anything? Even people who love that show couldn't tell you what happens in it. No one can. It's a nonsense show. And I worry that this show will be a nonsense show and it'll be very difficult to like latch on to anything and care about it to the point where it won't be fun bad. It won't even be fun bad, which is the most we can hope for these days. >> Watching Iron Heart was a was a slog for my video. >> Iron Heart was glorious. >> It was relatively coherent though. It was like it took place in a real like in reality like >> they had a good scene in there. There was one >> There was one good scene. Yeah, there was one good scene. Th this was a show where the hero made a deal with the devil. I mean, what's not to like? This was the most absurd show of the entire year. >> I forgot. I forgot that Iron. Like, >> yeah, >> I forgot that existed. >> The one I always forget is Echo. That [ __ ] is unbelievable. >> Echo is Echo. I probably forget. >> The [ __ ] graveyard, dude. Like, you know, there's never If anyone says like, "How did this happen to the MCU?" It was like it's all there. You could go visit the graveyard. >> Dig up the bones. >> Yeah. >> Required viewing for a doomsday. >> Imagine if she comes back with her Native American witch magic and just wins. >> By the way, it's me. >> Well, she wouldn't say that because she can't, but you know. >> Solv Doom's grief like she did Kingpin even though it didn't work at all. >> An interdimensional cuckoid. >> Yes. >> Being an emotionally welladjusted villain. and save your son. >> Yeah. I mean, this could this could all mean anything. Hopefully, it's fun. I suppose groundbreaking trilogy is funny. But I suppose they've got to make it sound like something. >> Is this war? >> Yeah. >> Is this what >> is that? Magic. >> Magic war. >> Was that magic >> said magic war? And like, yeah, that actually kind of describes some of the shows pretty accurately as just nonsense magic war. >> It would be really random for it to be magic war, though. >> I'm hoping. >> Oh, look. It's vision. >> Yeah. Why would he with a genocidal maniac inside your head? >> Um, nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Vision Quest. >> I don't think I'm actually hyped for this at all. Like zero. What? You're not >> It's It's >> Vision. >> I don't I usually like all the slot. That's why it's surprising here for me. >> What What would you What number of hype would you put on uh for you with Doomsday? Where are you at with that? >> Um I mean that could be really funny bad. So I'm like a six for that to be honest. I kind of want to see it happen. This I'm just not interested in at all. >> All right. All right. What was your number for Echo? >> I didn't watch it. >> So zero. Okay. All right. >> Zero. >> You said you like >> you like funny bad and you didn't watch Echo. >> Funny stuff in it. >> Well, Funny Bad had a defeating like she was about to die, but she imagined a football game and that gave her powers to kill them all. That show is wild. And not just modern to get there though. >> An ancient like an ancient football game. >> Yeah. >> Compris small part of the of the show. >> Yeah. You have to wait. >> But that doesn't compare to like the Agatha episode where they had to do like the weird quiz in the in the in the freaky house, right? That was that was funny bad. That was like mildly interestingly bad in a funny way to see how they tried to make that work and it obviously didn't. And to see how stupid all those people were with the clues and everything and how none of it made sense. That was like I was like engaged with how bad that was. Vision. That thing's a snoozefest, man. >> You mean echo? >> Yeah. Echo. I think you meant >> echo. It's all seen already. >> Echoing visioning. It's all That's all. >> Yeah. Disney Plus. >> They're like, "Please watch our shows. Please do not unsubscribe from Disney Plus. know what this is. >> Yeah, this got shared around. So, Elizabeth Olsson did a vanity fed thing. These things are quite fun when it's the right people. Not to say she's the wrong people. I mean, like, you know, it's a it's a cool format. They just go through like famous scenes or things they were in. They just talk about them a little bit. And uh she just volunteers some information here that is [ __ ] brilliant. Honestly, >> it's a similar arc in Multiverse of Madness that it is in W division. There could be parallel stories being told there of dealing with grief and loss. Why propose that to the writers who wrote Multiperson Madness? I said, "Do you know what we're doing in one division? Have you seen it?" And no, they had not. >> Oh wow. >> Must be nice. >> Oh my god. >> I just love the idea that they were like setting up the story for it to film in [ __ ] Multiver. She's like, "Oh, this is weirdly similar to the story we're currently telling." And then they're like, "Huh?" Like, "Do you guys not know about?" They're like, "No." Oh, >> what a Hey, Gary Nerdic. What? That that VHS? I'm looking at some of these VHS's. That second one from the left. Is that Star Trek the motion? What is that? That it looks like a planet. What? >> What is that second box? >> Oh, you mean >> that's on the table of the VHS? >> Well, the one of them is up, right? >> You saying between Raiders and ET? >> Between ET and Raiders of the Lost Arcs. >> That definitely looks like Star Trek. That definitely looks like Star Trek. It looks like a Star Trek. >> Yeah, it's either >> the the wrath of I'm trying to see like what the the blurriness of the letters, >> man. I'm going to look now. I got I'm going to break out my >> I'm pretty >> I do find it funny that we're all at the point of like, oh yeah, Multiverse of Madness sucks because that is >> discovered country. >> No, everyone's agreed it sucks. >> I think I think that's Yeah, I think that that's Wrath of Con. It looks like it's >> Oh, yeah. That does kind of look like the words look like Star Trek and then maybe two. >> I looked at two and I'm pretty sure it says Yeah, I I don't know >> those that wouldn't match the Wrath of K because it says three. >> Yeah, I was trying to find the >> three. The color. >> Yeah, >> it looks like three. >> Actually, six. >> The undiscovered country. I was right. >> It is six. You could tell. >> It is the undiscovered country. Outside of the box planet. You can see the planet. Yeah, I had those. >> Yeah, I look I like the undiscovered country. >> I'm not fantastic. >> I'm not going to All right, calm down. But like I'm not going to say all of those. >> I'm not going to calm down. It's [ __ ] fantastic. >> I I did like it. I I liked Wrath of Con 4 and six. >> Those are Undiscovered Country six. >> That's weird as [ __ ] I only have one of the Star Trek all all three of the Indiana Jones trilogy next to it. The motion picture director's cut is the most Star Trek of Star Trek movies ever made. >> I did not care for the motion picture. >> Return of the Jedi is you can be wrong. It's okay. >> Didn't care for what they were trying to do. >> I love Breath of I >> [ __ ] Varsity Blues. What the the hell? Who selected these? >> I think it's weird. >> Framed Roger Rabbit there. What's the eight and a half one? That's >> Naked Gun. Is that Naked Gun down there? No. No. That's I see the pink. >> What's that? >> Austin Powers on the bottom of >> It might be Austin Powers. Yeah, >> it's like Austin Powers. >> I think it's Austin Powers. >> The one that's almost impossible to figure out is that that far right almost pure white one. I can't >> You have to make it political. >> Anything. Yeah. >> Being there is on the bottom >> to try and I don't know play it differently, right? I had to attack the same themes in order for it to be interesting for me. >> More interesting than the interview. I'm just fascinated that this it's like you just need enough time to pass then everyone can just agree and talk about how [ __ ] that thing was. I'm like you bring up when it came out that movie got hyped to hell and back. Multiverse of >> madness flat back >> you were getting and I was getting for uh >> everyone forgets and then they're like yeah know we always thought it sucks >> because the halfife on these shows is just it's like milk on a countertop. It only has to last a few minutes to make its money. People forget they remember the vibe the like the the the the vibes sort of the general vibes they felt when they watched the show which are generally positive enough to give a good association kind of they couldn't tell you what happens in it or any of the characters but it doesn't matter because we've moved on to the next thing now it's the next thing's job to sort of keep it going >> get back to a world where we remember the reality and not the [ __ ] vibe >> I think potentially for the warranted right now by the way deserve it I'm I'm actually not sure that reality will ever exist again because things do move so fast now with the internet. I think it's like like time is compressed and I was one of the people I was looking forward to Multiverse of Madness more than anything else. Doctor Strange is my favorite uh character out of the entire previous series. Uh, and it it came down to it and it was that followed by I think it was Thor, Love, and Thunder as back to back and I'm like, how on earth do you just collapse that hard in like quality instantaneously? It was kind of mind-blowing to me. >> And the three movies that came out that year were alarming for Marvel, if you remember. And they all made tons of money comparatively. Yeah. >> To what they're making now. >> Uh, but Wakanda Forever did what, almost 800 million. Uh Thor 11 Thunder did over 700 million and Doctor Strange Mom almost made a billion dollars. >> Now they kill for those numbers. >> Yeah, I was in a similar boat uh to Disperose. I really liked the first Doctor Strange, so I was really looking forward to the second one. >> And yeah, dude, my god. And I watched that and then Thor Love and Thunder, which I was also looking forward to, although a bit skeptical. And yeah, same thing happened. I was like, "Yeah, the MCU's dead." Like I'm I'm no longer tuning into every project. I might just check in if something's interesting. >> When they can't get Sam Ramy to work within the confines of their universe, then they're stupid. >> For For me, it wasn't Sam Remy. I always chose superheroes based on their powers. And so, you've got a guy who's magic. He can do whatever he wants. And you got Thor who's the god of thunder. >> Like, he's cool as hell. And it's like, how on earth do you even mess those up as characters compared to what? Like Ant-Man who just gets really small. Like these were like two of your coolest people out of everybody and you still managed to destroy their legacy. It's kind of w still wild to me. You >> you thought Ant-Man was one of the coolest? >> No, I thought Ant-Man was one of the worst. This is just a guy who gets small and really large. >> Okay, good. >> It was Doctor Strange and Thor were always my favorite ones. >> I think so. If Edgar Wright had directed Ant-Man, it probably would have been pretty good. He was still kind of >> Yeah, he still had talent at that point. >> Yeah. >> I don't know what happened to him. I just had to come at it from a different point of view so that it wasn't repetitive. >> Well, it was just [ __ ] I guess. So, don't worry about >> which I guess is not your fault cuz you didn't write it. >> You know, >> she knowed the [ __ ] >> I think she's I think she's quite a good actress. Oh, yeah. It's It's a shame that the material is uh >> Oh, well, all of you guys see static. I already see poss. >> I see the man. I see the man. >> Well, so I was saying it was just it was it was convenient the mention of um you know vibes, feelings, uh hype you might even say. And then authenticity, whether or not hype is even real and whether or not the people who are expressing the hype even know that they're not doing it authentically because they all have to switch on their cameras, upload the videos, and get them views. So it doesn't really reflect anything in particular. But I'm not going to take it away from anybody that they may feel whatever they feel. Okay? But this is the announcement >> of who's playing Rogue. >> Rogue in the never end. >> Oh >> god. This like this is hell on earth. >> This is hell. Yeah. >> Oh yeah. This is this is hell >> in this place. God. >> Yeah. So India just so we're clear. >> Girl from obsession chat being rogue, right? And so everyone everyone's going us cuz it's just it's all it's a rare moment of shared culture I guess cuz everyone's sore obsession and so everyone knows who that is and so everyone can do the uh the soy face. >> All right Indian >> I I love I love when someone gets denounced as being like a character in a movie that the instinct is let me turn the camera to me. This is what he mean by inauthentic. It's so like he even does the thing with his eyes where he's like camera is on me. Right. Here I go. >> Okay. React. >> And also just almost fundamentally I don't really understand how anybody could ever get this excited for like any casting ever. >> That's you know what I mean? Like >> so for us it's like >> even even under the best of all possible >> be like oh yeah that was a good choice. >> Yeah that could be cool but not like screaming so loud like like I don't I don't know anything that could prompt that response. Definitely Americans get this excited about a casting decision like all of us. Okay. >> No, 100%. As an Englishman, I couldn't I wouldn't get this excited about the the uh the birth of my first born. >> Seeing Americans get this excited about >> We are We are You know what? I'm going to defend my country. Okay. >> Go for it. Not going to sit there and go, "Oh my god, I just had a kid. Oh, terrible. I'm not going to have be able to do anything for 18 years now. You [ __ ] brick." >> Oh, yeah. Desper's not going to count to that. Neither will I. Neither will Platoon. We're just like, >> I have never been as excited in my entire life as the average American is about a burger. This is the >> Have you had American burgers? That's really the question. If you had a good American burger, then you have no idea. You're talking out your ass at that point. >> [ __ ] disprove thinks pepper is a spice. Okay. >> Pepper. >> To be fair, in the um in my uh Spider-Man Brand New Day theater after the film ended, there were a few people who stood up to give the film like a standing ovation. >> I [ __ ] hate this. >> Oh no. >> And and I told that and I was in a Discord call with a British person. I told him that and and her response is just like, "Ah, [ __ ] Americans." And I was likely repulsive. >> No, I agree with that. That is one of the most cringe things. Like there's nobody that was involved in the movie in this theater. You're just applauding the projectionist that's in a room probably passed out. >> First off, bravo to that guy. Uh the unsung heroes of cinema. Uh but is is it more cringe to clap at the end of a movie or when the plane lands? >> I think the plane lands. The plane lands. The No, the plane. At least you're alive. At least I mean there was actually you know, now that I think about it, I'm gonna go back on that. There's a chance. Yeah. Never mind. Like the the plane landing is just a matter of physics. The pilot didn't actually do anything to keep the plane in the air. The plane staying in the air way before the pilot entered the place. >> You have no idea how easy it is to use modern projectors. >> Like I'm just going to take a wild guess and say using an old projector is easier than fly landing an airplane no matter how much assistance they get. >> Absolutely it is. >> Something you have to train a lot for. Also, if a projectionist doesn't do his job, you don't all die. So, that >> aren't we now arguing over which job has the lowest standards rather than which job has the room standards required for the job? >> I ain't clapping for either of them. Okay. Jeez. Love that this conversation is happening while this is like on screen. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So psychologically it it is known that that the large mouth open gape showing teeth is a submissive gesture. >> Um and so what these are is going you are better than me. You are superior to me. I am I am less than you. That is the message that they're sending out to the the crowd during this entire thing. >> I just um >> it just sounds like teeth envy to me. >> I just have more >> I wish I could disagree but that is way beyond my pay. >> Low blow dude. Hey, >> I just have >> that is a big and I I respect it. >> I just wish that this happened in July, man. This would have been great. >> The thing that gets me the most is the um theater. Yeah. >> Is that like they didn't even care. It didn't matter what the announcer was. They were just ready to flip the phone, yell up. Yeah. Like who? >> If they said Adolf Hitler, he would have had the same >> as Ro. >> It's a It's a wild choice. Actually, I think that that would legitimate shock coming out of that announcement would be more believable. >> Holy [ __ ] What the >> like that would actually somebody said >> that was rough. That one was like >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh my go is is that is that somebody does she react to star wars stuff? Maybe >> probably don't know. >> I think they all it's the Disney thing, right? So, this was a whole bunch of Disney stuff. A whole bunch of wonderful Disney news. Uh, a certain season, the live action remakes continue with Lilo and Stitch, too, and Tangled. >> Uh, what else was there? Obviously, this Marvel [ __ ] like Yeah, it's just, you know, my god, >> it's just so dystopian that the room is probably like filled with a bunch of like influencers who are fil. >> It is. That's um at Cineacon. That's what uh all the corporate critics got pissed off at uh Disney for for what they were and DC where or or Warner Brothers were bringing in influencers and they're like, "Well, we're the only ones who can shill for things." Uh they don't have any credibility. So, they got Yeah, they got pissed. >> Mhler, before you move on from this particular screenshot, you should pull up a picture of the screen painting and just compare the two of them. Exactly what she looks like. Uh I I don't >> No wonder why they're in the the doom loop they're in because they invite all these influencers who do this and they think well everything we're doing is great. >> Yeah. >> And then they're shocked when it doesn't do great. Like are you guys not representative of the entire >> as much as much as it's like you know Spider-Man obviously that's Spider-Man right so [ __ ] uh as much as it looks like Doomsday is going to end up doing super well I hold I just like I completely expect that this new X-Men film is actually not going to like do that well for them >> it might not >> I I think I think like I I really do think it's entirely possible that it came out making only like $500 million or something. That's what Fantastic 4 was. And that was presented as something of a clean break, a fresh start, an important movie that's worth seeing. Like I get I get the impression that the exact same thing can happen again. >> Um which of course is funny, right? GIVEN THAT THIS WHOLE SORT of reaction to all of these castings, but it's like I don't know. Is it not already incredibly obvious that like a lot of these people aren't that interested in the careers of these actors? How many people talk about how much they like Yolena and Florence Pew, but they don't like watch anything that she does that isn't a Marvel project. And even then, how many of them showed up for Thunderbolts? Like a lot of the time it just comes across as entirely inauthentic interest in actors or um filmmakers. Like it's Yeah. Like how I don't think this means anything is my is my point. Like all of this I think is just meaningless. >> And who's directing the X-Men movie? >> Director of the Thunderbolt. >> Thunderbolts. Yeah, Thunderbolts guy. And also then there's another thing of I wonder how many people now are actually like genuinely authentically like X-Men fans. Um it's been a long time since the '90s. Um the X-Men films were consistently gradually declining uh in terms of their box office, you know, the Fox ones. Um and you know, like ah no, we really need to have like an X-Men, you know, movie that's like the original cast. It's like, yeah, I don't know how many I I I just don't buy the enthusiasm. That's that's all I'm saying. >> I think there's still a lot of genuine X-Men fans. It's just it's not as insulated as with like Spider Spider-Man is pretty insulated. It could be a terrible movie. It's still going to make a [ __ ] ton of money. Unless they except with the exception of announcing immediately before the movie comes out that it's it's a dead project like with uh TAM 2. But um but I X-Men h is a little less insulated from the uh consistently bad movies than like Spider-Man would be. >> Well, look at the writers too. So uh one of the writers is Lee Sun Jin uh who has written for Beef Dave Girl Boss Silicon Valley which was a good show. Broke Girls, >> Outsourced. >> Yeah. Not seen a lot of superhero stuff. >> I I watched that show. I remember. I think it went for one season. That was like from 15 years ago or something. >> Two. >> Is there a show called Two Broke Girls was around for a while. It's just it all blends like together because it's all just clips on Oh, like Tik Tok. >> Yeah. And then Joanna Callo who wrote for the Thunderbolts and the Bear and >> Bojack Bojack Horseman and then um Hacks. >> That's it. Yeah. >> Well, yeah. >> I just think this is a mistake to think it has anything to do with her at all. Like Spider-Man is to do with Spider-Man, not Jean Gray. Um even to bring it up to do with X-Men. I like the animation. And I like the original movies. I don't like Jean Gray in Spider-Man cuz she's not where X-Men are. The moment you convert someone's morality from we're good guys that do heroic things to we're evil people that torture people. This is entirely entirely different character. >> Just because you're incompetent doesn't mean that you're not trying to do the thing that everyone doesn't like. You know >> so not one body to show me. I see. I got you. Okay. I follow. >> They're trying to show the moral ambition. >> Well, the writers did say they technically didn't kill anyone. >> Yeah. Doesn't really get past the intent point though, does it? >> She failed. >> She failed, but she tried. >> Murder 15. >> As Mr. Grimmugglia pointed out in one of his responses, um, you know who else tried to kill people in the MCU? Tony Stark. >> Whoa. >> That's crazy. And that changes everything. That makes Gene. that his explanation about like why utterly Noah needed a college course is not plagiarizing. I get it if you're saying that Tony Stark killed people in the MCU and people could be morally gray. So >> this is the problem with Nolan's idea of like morality that everyone is exactly the same and so if you have 500 on one side and one 500 on the other, it's exactly the same. It's like no, it actually does matter who's on which side. It matters what they stand for. It matters what they're trying to do. >> Okay. And this is the idea behind heroism in the first place that heroes are the ones that are supposed to because this is the entire point like who decides? Well, heroes are supposed to decide because they are better than everyone else. Um but for that it does require you to believe that some people are better than others and they can decide whereas like Hollywood has decided against. >> Yeah, sure. But when John Walker killed the terrorist there was blood on the shield so >> he just needed college level. A a new argument I've been hearing is that it was because it was public. Like a lot of people in my >> What's more public than someone getting jumping in front of he just dragged him to a private location and I see what the CIA literally in New York City street >> she enslaved the public. The entire public. >> Yeah. She the the public was a victim not not just the location. as Rome Indian. >> It's dude, >> how does he open her mouth and it's and it's the >> one of the mummy swallows up the boyfriend in the invasion of the body snatchers. >> Yes. Yes. I was thinking that >> fit a brick in there without hitting a single tooth. Mostly because I don't think she has any. >> I mean, she looks like the Scream Mask. >> Suck a beach ball through a garden hose. >> No. New soy jack just dropped. >> Oh my gosh. Yeah. >> I think every single time I' i'd ask like why are you so excited that Indie Navaretti is playing Rogue specifically? Please tell me why. Tell me why that is so exciting to you personally that it would make you scream. >> I need to know. Not that I like. >> She's the one from Obsession. There you go. She's from the actress. It's a It's a cool movie. I like that movie a lot. It's probably my favorite movie of the year. But why why Rogue? Like why is that something that you're interested in personally? That's all I want to know. >> They know. So there you go. >> A reactionary casting too. It's like oh let's get the hot girl. You know the And she's hot but like hot as in like popular right now, >> social media viral stuff. >> I I think that's a good thing though. And she's shown through her um her casting, her PR that she's taken a sort of Sydney Sweeney action of, yeah, I'm hot, but I know I'm hot and I'm willing to play into it, which very few actresses at the moment are. So, I actually do think it's a good casting for her to do this kind of thing. But it is a case of why would these people, which are against everything I'm against, also think the same thing. >> Yeah, look at the history, dude. Like why would we ever expect this? Fine. We'll see. We'll we'll see how it goes. Even though everyone's going to end up saying [ __ ] 5 years from now, that X-Men movie was terrible. >> She's the perfect casting, dude. She played Call of Duty on live stream six years ago. She's [ __ ] the king of the nerds. Everyone's going to love it. >> I will say it's kind of funny because, you know, there's the thing of when she got given Modern Warfare 2, the old one, and it's like, "Oh, this is the 2009 version." My first reaction is like, I thought everybody knew that. But then I was like, "No, maybe they don't actually." And it's like, >> h, do you get gamer cred for knowing that there are two different versions of Modern Warfare 2? And as much as some of you guys might be like, come on, what are you talking about? IT'S LIKE, >> WELL, to look at the the box and realize that >> it was a graded game that cannot be removed from the case that remember the label say it. It's got the game in it, doesn't it? The the real nerd rating would have been what is this? I use a mouse. >> Well, elitism. >> I'm just saying it's, you know, >> is there anything to say? >> Is there any amount of cred that that you get for that? And it's like, yeah, maybe. >> Well, I mean, for Samara Weaving, they keep posting about how she takes her PS5 everywhere, right? And sometimes you got to wonder if it's done just because >> you always wonder just Yeah, because it's like that's something that you should do because it makes people like you more. Uh that that you play video games. >> Yeah. Fringy, you want to take this away from her? Because I will. >> She got handed a box that says 20 2009 on it. Look. >> Oh, does it? >> That's what a graded game looks like. I think it was PSA. I'm not sure what gradeated. That means >> But it explicitly states exactly what year it's >> It does say that. That's true. But the question is, what do we think happened? that she read that first or she looked at the cover and realized that that is the original version of Modern Warfare 2 like I would if I got if someone it's like yeah it's Modern Warfare 2. It's like the only Modern Warfare 2 that I care about. >> Yeah, it's like it I that that cover is burned into my memory. >> I the way I interpreted that oh it's the 2009 version meaning that you didn't buy a later print of the game but maybe I'm completely >> Okay. So, so, okay. So, question, Nick, cuz I I I asked you about that clip of the Outer Banks person saying that she played Fortnite and won Battle Royale, and you said that you thought that one was for for sure. Like, actually, >> I believed it. I believed it cuz I looked up the skins that she said she had, and it worked with the timeline of when she claimed she beat. >> Sure. I'm just saying that like to me, I'd go like the inverse of that. >> That's an easier cell. Yeah, this is an easier cell. It's uh I'm just, you know, look, it's the the point being I just want to know what these people think about this particular casting choice for this character. >> I think every single person who's anywhere near a Marvel movie is going to be an expert on video games and like Magic the Gathering and Pokemon in the next couple of years. >> Yes. >> But that that's the kind of question it comes down to though, right? It is like, okay, so if no one expects them to actually be um some big nerd that's into all of this stuff, isn't it better that they're just attractive than not? Because we have we've lived through a decade of ugly 45year-old women being dragged into every single thing. Is it not better we're going back to the ones that were before? Because no one none no actress or actor was interested in any of these things previously. Is it not better that they are hot than not? I mean, Indie was streaming COD, you know, before this. >> I just want the movies to be good. I don't care if these people are [ __ ] ugly as [ __ ] There's a lot of problems. >> Yeah, but they could all be like demons. >> I feel like there's like two different tracks of conversation. There's one about this and then the other one of Yeah, but does she actually play Call of Duty? Is that something that she was actually interested in at The Last of Us? >> Presumably, a lot of that could be marketing, but there's plenty of little tells. Like I said, she was streaming it for money and playing [ __ ] Call of Duty before her career went crazy. So, I could buy that she actually cares about >> I get you. It's just that there's almost a spectrum, right? When Brie Larson's talking about Super Mario Galaxy in like 2015 for no reason at all, it's like, hm, that's like that's probably like pretty far on that end of the spectrum of, oh, that's probably something you're authentically interested in. And then on the other end would be like, yes, I like the the the Call of Duties. I've been playing the Call of Duty uh Modern Warfare 6 just like >> anybody who says they like modern Call of Duty liar. All right, classic Call of Duty there's a chance. >> Li liar that they absolutely there have to be people who like all the new Call of Duties like blend together. I I can't tell you like a memory I have >> that's out right now. People are People are having fun with that. >> Yeah, there's one where you like fight dragons and zombies or something. I saw that and it was like looking into a different universe. But there's people who like that >> Skyrim. >> No, it's called now. >> It's one of those franchised >> for all the new fans like the game and now they don't make good games anymore because their new fans like the game. It's like Halo. >> All right, turn the camera. >> There you go. Yeah, there you go. They just need to get the tech that records forward and back at the same time so they don't have to worry about this [ __ ] >> Mhm. >> I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. >> Oh, you knew it. You knew it. You knew it. You knew it. You knew it. You really needed something before. >> You should have said it before they announced. Yeah. You said >> if you said when he was like add plague rogue and then you WERE INDIE READY. OH YEAH. Then you could have but you didn't do that. So you don't get to claim that. >> Listen, you keep saying indie nevereti but they only ever say indie. I don't know where you're getting the from. >> That's what Kevin Feige said when he introduced her. >> No, he said never. >> It's Lord. >> I thought Did he? >> Yeah, >> we just heard it like 15 times. >> I feel I thought Okay. All right. Never mind. >> Okay. I love you. >> Dude, >> longest skirt than the Cllingon in Starfleet Academy. Yeah, >> I kind of wish like the boys did a satire of what whatever the [ __ ] we just saw >> so that they could become whatever the [ __ ] we just >> whatever that was just like Homelander just kills one of these people in cold and they cheer louder in >> they were too busy becoming a satire of itself. >> That show sucks. Yep. >> What comics better? >> You guys hate everything. >> Yep. >> Hate most things. Speaking of hating everything, that's the Marvel section for Doomsday. Okay, we don't we don't have to go back to that. >> I can't wait. >> We got uh we're going into a different one. But before we do, we'll have to say goodbye to to some if not several people right now. >> Oh my goodness. >> Um first, I suppose you you have to head out, I believe. >> Yeah. Yeah. I figured it's uh I'll dark. >> It is. It's quite, it actually quite literally is the dark hour. We've we've passed midnight on where I am. So, >> uh, but yeah, just, you know, thank you for inviting me on. You know, it's always great to come on this show, especially when it's one of these celebrations. You know, it's it's amazing how you guys have been able to keep this going with such consistency and never missing a like a week except scheduled once. That's pretty impressive. >> I was going to say we missed a bunch, but don't talk about it. >> We like your version of reality better than the real version of reality. Yeah, we will stick to >> We've never missed a week. It's true. >> You could be, >> but no, it's it's really cool because it's like I you know, I obviously being a fan before I got into this whole thing, you know, being able to be part of, you know, the overall EFAP universe is pretty uh pretty awesome. So, I just wanted to thank you guys for letting me on when you let me on >> the EFU. >> Yeah, there you go. >> Well, always uh always love coming you coming on. Thank you very much, dude. We're >> Thank you. >> 11 hours in and coming up to that soon. So, we got we got a while to go. But we're not even halfway. >> He's already gone. >> Oh, I was going to Okay. Well, appreciate you. >> Interesting. >> Also leaving would be Uno, I believe. >> Um, thank you. Thank you so much for having me on, Mo. And really good to just be on the call with you guys. I've been a been a fan since day one, and thanks to EAP, I've met I've gone through to pretty much everyone else's channels as a result. So, um, it's been great and, um, thanks for letting me join for just a short time. >> Well, appreciate you being here, dude. >> Thanks for being here. >> I'm sure we'll catch you around later. >> Well, I'm in I'm very keen to get uh to get in on on the Resident Evil discussion when that comes around. So, >> it might just happen. >> Cool. Right. Well, thanks everybody. I hope you have a good time and congratulations on eight years. It's it's an insane achievement. Thank you, dear. >> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We will catch you later. >> Bye, Uno. See you later, sir. >> Bye, Mr. Spleen. >> I believe we are also saying goodbye to Gary, Mr. New. >> What? >> I gotta go. >> It is awfully late. >> It It's a Yeah, it's a little past my talking about. It's like the middle of the day. >> That don't make no sense. That don't make no sense. >> That was nonsense. Gentlemen, it's been a pleasure. Congratulations on 400 episodes. Um, as somebody who knows uh what it's like to wrangle retards, to get them to go on a not you guys, but my my guys are retards uh for 400 episodes. I know how difficult that is and what an accomplishment it is. So, well done, >> guys. Well done for not being retards, too. That's that's that's a good one. I don't know. >> Just being nice. Yeah, I am just being nice >> and we appreciate that. Thanks for coming on, dude. >> Thanks everybody. Thanks chat. Have a good one. >> Bye. >> Bye. We'll see you later. Bye. >> Dude, >> everyone's really nice, dude. I'm going to curse you guys out just like to balance it out when I leave. >> Well, then we'll just not let you leave. >> I mean, Gary just called me a [ __ ] at a different show and then say, "You fine on this one, though." >> That's just consistency. That's good writing. Um, well, yeah. So, how are we looking here? 10:20. So, that means whatever we do next, it needs to wrap up in an hour and 10 minutes. That's like about Well, we can go a little longer than that, but we're risking it at that point. But, we do >> every minute we go further is a less of a minute we have to do later. So, >> yes, but there is the constraint of the actual like like how long it can go. Well, was this channel not I heard that older channels were grandfathered in to where they they don't have the stream limit. Nicholas, back me up on this. >> I definitely have the stream limit. That's how I learned about this. >> Yeah, I think >> does your channel have to be to to >> I think it's a video limit. Like >> Yeah, my video limits. >> Oh, it's not a stream limit. It's a video 48 hour video. I'm trapped at the 12 hour mark >> cuz there is a limit. So, >> there is indeed. Which means we should probably get going. All right. All right, I'm >> It's not even really It's not really like a limit as much as it's I'm sorry. Wait, we're getting going. Sorry. >> It took me like an extra two seconds. >> Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the Gollum section. >> Oh, no. >> No. Wait, wait, why? >> Wait, why? >> Yeah, but why? >> Just get every >> I feel like I should have headed out to the lesson. >> You missed your opportunity, buddy. >> I'm so excited. I think >> first thing I'm trying to [ __ ] load up here if it just works is >> you are you guys are not right. >> Oh god you are >> like do you mean the game or the hunt for Gollum? That's the question. >> The game of which the movie is clearly based. >> You should have dodged the game so far. >> You should have forced like somebody like an editor or something to play through the entire game and then when you guys had like a break be like all right just cutting over real quick. Let's see how things are going. He's just like >> you mean AZ should have been forced to play it. >> Yes. >> Too many too many people have already been forced to >> played all of Gollum in a single stream in 14 hours. That would be crazy. >> Yes, that definitely did not happen. No one was forced to do such horrible things. Also, this is Joe Danger, by the way, for those who don't know. >> You didn't force me. That was my I'm the only person that wasn't forced to play go. >> Oh, it was spiritual. Okay. But you are indeed the super cut editor man himself, Joe Danger. And you are here. >> Oh my goodness. Here he is. >> I finished before Dioro. Good job. >> That's true. >> I have one more painful stream. The real >> f. >> Plenty left for the Oreo. Anyway, this first video we're checking out is called Lord of the Rings. Lord of >> chat is saying I'm on the wrong mic. Do I sound You sound atypical. >> You might be on the wrong mic. You might Is it directed properly? >> It's the webcam mic. You can tell. >> Yeah, I changed my output because it wasn't working before. So, that probably did that. >> All right. >> How do I change it back? >> Well, however you do it. Hurry. >> Figure it out. >> Click the cog, then change input. >> In 200 ft, turn left, then turn left. >> All right, Grandma. You click the settings. That's the little cog there. >> Oh, wait. I think I turned off. Do I sound good now? >> No. >> You sound identical. >> Hold on. I'm gonna share my screen. I'll show you all my settings now. >> I sound >> I sound good now. Right. >> No, >> you sound the same. >> What? >> Have you changed your inputs? Have you changed it on Discord and on your machine? >> Do I have to do that, too? Okay. >> It has to be done on Are you using like Nvidia broadcast or something like that? What does BEAST MEAN? THEY'LL FEED us to some beasts. >> That's going to come up. >> Oh no. >> I know. We have to like finish in an hour or two. So this is making it way worse. >> You are audible. You just sound distant. >> Yeah. Like I mean I can I can deal with this. >> Like you're on the other side of the room. >> Yeah. It must be my monitor mic or whatever it is. >> I mean that's not bad for a monitor mic if that's the weird. >> Now water. Am I Am I to continue? What are we doing here? >> Yeah. >> I'll get help from someone. >> We understand you. >> Nice. >> Here, I'll I'll come back. >> Nobody sounds nice after playing 14 hours of Golem. >> No. >> Well, >> what would you rather have? 6 in of Venom or 14 hours of Gollum? Oh, I'd rather have six inches of Venom. >> That sounds easier. >> It does sound easier. I could take it. >> So, on that note, we have Lord of Ring Gollum was a wonderful game that a bunch of us played, and I've just been I was made aware of and hadn't yet seen. They made a Lord of Ring Golem official making of Golem developer diary video. Isn't that great? >> So excited. >> It's 420, too, in length. >> Why would they do that? >> Why wouldn't they do that? because they made something really good and they're proud of it and they want to show it off to the people. >> So, the first day we smoked crack and uh yeah, the first day we did horrific amounts of narcotics. >> Let's see the artistry, you know, that we we definitely argued was was real in video games to that other dude. So, let's see it. >> A hobbage. >> Hey, look at him go from >> Sorry. I'm so sorry. >> He was really He's really proud of the voice. Hey. >> Wow. This makes me feel But I know the truth. I know the truth. >> A unique hero. >> Well, that depends on what choices you make. >> After he killed his cousin, you know, >> I guess very unique. >> Yep. >> Oh, the music's so great. >> So, we choose >> because >> Why didn't they use music from their own game for their video here? >> You're asking too much. >> Cuz I don't remember. Okay, fair enough. The the the free stock uh ambient triumphant music was >> the most complex characters in the book. One of the things that's that fascinated us about Gollum was the the fact that he has these two two personalities that are >> I'm just going to sound awful the whole time because it's going to take too long. >> I mean, it's all right. I mean, this guy >> this guy makes me want to cut my hair long more often. >> You do? Yeah. Are you related to this guy? Cuz you do >> German desper. >> Yeah. Look, I I am respons I'm sorry I've never announced this before, but I am actually responsible for Gollum the movie the video game. Uh yeah, it's um this is why I I came out against War of the Roherum because I was jealous of their success. >> Damn. >> Don't remind me of that. >> Uh I'll give a I'll give the background for this. Uh like how because I don't know why we never thought to look up the behind the scenes for Gollum ever. >> And there's a few >> because of a trauma. Well, because I did it for mixtape right away and I'm like, I should do it for Gollum, too, because >> you did mixtape. Yes, >> you did. >> Yes. >> Yeah, I made the I did the mixtape stuff and I played it. It was awesome. >> You avoided the torture, isn't this unique hero? >> He's the harbinger. He brings pain everywhere he goes. >> Joe's like, I am the curse. >> Um, >> he's the reason we don't have Halfife 4. Yes, >> but I there is a there's one specifically for writing, music, and level design as well, but that would take too long to cover. This is like the overall one from uh IGN. >> Mhm. >> Don't know which one of those would make the least amount of sense to listen to even writing. There was level design. >> I guess there was. >> Yeah. >> Responsible for the levels. I'm sure >> the music one is like we made such poor music. We had violins, violas, percussion, and the game. Yes, you made your music with instruments. >> That's true. >> And and like every behindthe-scenes shot is the most sterile like stock footage room ever, and it's so funny. Also, this guy's hair looks >> This guy's hair looks absolutely terrible, and I love it so much. >> Looks like hair doesn't matter when you're developing a game like this. Doesn't matter. >> I think his hair is like the I think his hair is like that hat. I think it's I think it's fine. >> Oh, don't put don't compare it to the half this poor guy. >> One half is driven focused on the ring and the other half is just like I I just want to reconnect and try to like find somebody like me just like showing this split persona in the environ. >> I'm sorry. Why is Gollum like you like you creepy? >> Find I just want to find somebody who identifies with speaking for Gollum. He's saying like >> that's what Golem wants. Not that he relates to Gollum. >> So he might still get the ring. >> Maybe, but I guarantee you he's the kind of guy if the interview go do you relate to Golem? He probably like, "Yeah, yeah, I think we all do." Don't we all? I think a part of us, you know, a part of all of us is we got a little Gollum in all of us is what he'd say. >> The descriptions are really funny because they not only are they [ __ ] on their face, but they're also all German, so it's in broken English. So it just is extra confusing every time they try and describe something. >> Oh, >> whenever the Germans damage your >> They're situationally disabled. >> So uh Dispro, when are you streaming golem? When when are you doing that? When you streaming golem? >> Yeah, you should do that. >> Wait, are you waiting to commit? >> No, no, no, I'm not. I'm not >> waiting for everyone to Who knows? >> You're waiting for >> We actually did like nail another victim at the beginning of this anniversary. It was uh it was kind of amazing. >> The only thing I remember his ass was playing it and then he got a significant way through the game and then his game resets and he had to stop from the beginning. >> There are there are several different flavors of issues that you could encounter, >> but uh who knows? Who knows? >> Is that still possible that that could happen to me? >> Maybe missions left. >> I think we found out who the other person to agree was. We've gotten so many people to play this horrible game. Maybe there's a lot of recall. >> We wanted to find a version of of Go would still match the the imaginations of the of the fans. So, we're kind of still in the in the same line of of those concepts. >> Look at that creature over his right shoulder back there. That's >> projector. They set up behind them. >> Well, that's I think that's stealth golem, right? >> It is. It's blackface golem. >> Green eyes, the flat green circles for eyes. Yeah. stealth by Gollum. >> I love this. >> And this is their very ideas. >> That movie is also used. >> And every behind the scene shot is filmed in this room. So they must have just printed out for a day >> cuz there in the in the behind the scenes there's one shot where he's like reading a book and taking notes which he's taking notes on Lord of the Rings and he's reading J.R.R. Tolken's autobiography. So you know that they made sure the continuity was there. But then in a shot like a minute later, there's just a plant next to him with and there's people on the computers, so they just move stuff around. >> Oh, because this board looks a little a little like it's very bad. It looks prepared to look like it's a like it wasn't I don't know. >> Guitar spin. >> Look at the concept. >> Oh man, this is so funny. After you've played it, if you know what I mean. This is a marketing prelim preliminary picture and they just printed it on a piece of paper and put it on the wall. It's so funny >> for inspiration of course >> inspiration. >> I think uh Golem has a generic potential to give this epic music >> insight into this world. You have nonclassical ways to discover the world. >> Non classical ways the way no one has discovered a world before. Listen, uh, call the man many things, but a liar. No, the MC made this in a non-class way, that's for sure. >> Maybe unconventional would be better. >> I confirmed his with metal. His last name is not pronounced [ __ ] but it does look like that. >> Coke. >> I mean, it clearly is >> like Heckler and Coke. >> Max [ __ ] >> Maxim [ __ ] Maximum [ __ ] Yeah. All right. >> Through the shadows, you climbing a lot. What was the guy's name in um in the credits of the Wonder Woman movie? >> Richard Dick Dick Sickle. Suckle Sickle. >> Dick Dick Suckle Dick Suckle, wasn't it? Oh, yeah. What an unfortunate name. You should change it. >> Beautiful name. >> You uh >> maybe maybe the Suckle bloodline needs to just die in Hollywood. >> Richard Suckle >> different ways than other characters would. His abilities to to walk or to run are maybe beyond what we would expect with characters. >> Oh, all right. >> Not running. >> Dude, this music is great. >> He's a hard character. >> He's a hard character to understand. >> Mentally ever should have had a game. >> The mechanics are hard to understand. >> Have to um throw away everything you know about writing when you write forgotten. >> You throw everything. >> I believe it. Yes, I believe in >> the writing process. >> The writing process is to throw away everything you know about writing is what we've just learned. >> He's right, you know, >> cuz he does everything. >> Are you getting sold on this video game yet? I hope you're I hope you're >> we threw away the hero's journey and we created the burden of the hero where we were forced to play terrible character. >> Why is he Russian? >> We threw we threw away German dictionary. Now we are Russian developers. >> We must flee war zone. >> You learn as a writer not to do so. >> Yes, that's intelligence. The man's the man's a puzzle. >> He can solve that board at the same time. >> I enjoy I enjoy all the lines that are being drawn for some reason. >> It looks so [ __ ] like like you're supposed to do that sort of thing. >> How much behind the scenes stuff at this point is put on so that you can do a behind thescenes thing? How much at this point, you know, >> like all of it [ __ ] You mean like for every project at this point? >> Well, how many times is it for the camera rather than to actually serve the creative process? >> All of it. I mean, can you imagine this board for but for Lost? Even Lost was way more complicated than what we've got on the screen, which is three distinctly separate areas with a few Post-it notes tied together. Like, this guy should be ashamed to be a conspiracy theorist. Dude, could you imagine one of these at Halo Studios where everyone just looks depressed? The whole studio is like extremely monotone. You're like, "Yeah, I worked really hard with this." Honestly, Brian was supposed to be talking to you right now, but they laid him off a week ago. We were all Our team was really excited for the launch of the game. Yeah, they're all looking for work. >> They have one huge wall. There's just one postit in the middle and it just says Halo. >> What What is Halo? you know, the obligatory. We went back to what really made Halo Halo for like the fifth time. >> Back to our roots, >> which was back to our roots. Boots on the ground. Oh, wait. No, that's Call of Duty says boots on the ground. I get them mixed up. >> You have one of the guys talking and their their computer pigs. I get an email. It's like, oh, it appears I've also been laid off. And then they just get up and walk out in the middle of the interview. >> Someone just walks up to him and hands him an envelope in the middle of the interview. Working at Halo Studios is amazing. You don't know who you're going to be working with tomorrow. >> You don't know. You don't know who you will. >> So, they changed the name on the side of the building again. We're now Master Chief Studios. Fingers crossed. >> The company name changes every week. >> We're actually Cortana Co. This month we're going to be launching Halo C. >> We're Johnson and Johnson now. >> Johnson and Johnson. >> Even this guy started with a circle that is covered up with another identically shaped circle over the top. It's like I want to know what he's >> I don't know, man. I'm I'm still on the Halo thing where they changed the name to Ungoy Unlimited. >> Really enjoying Halloween. >> Me and my team, we call ourselves the wart wart warriors and we've been working. >> Uses the same very nondescriptive adjectives. Everything is either nasty or nice. I mean, the most fascinating thing about the main character with Gollum is his personal development and his like split persona >> and that was also great. Uh, >> they repeat this in every single behind the scenes thing. I was >> going to say they're not saying more than that, are they? >> Is so cool cuz he has two personalities. >> As if that's not every girl on Tik Tok movies or in the book where where they >> Yeah, the bare >> not as attract They're not as attractive as Gollum is. So, >> both fight with each other. You can be the player and and leave these discussions. >> What the discussions? >> Why would you want to leave the discussions? He said, "This is the most interesting part of the character. Just leave it alone. It'll be fine." >> Trust me, if if you played Golem, you would understand exactly why you'd want to leave these conversations. Lead the conversations. The problem is you don't do that because none of this makes any sense. I still to this day do not know what this is. >> First of all, Dispro, appreciate the iconic choice on screen. And secondly, appreciate this will lead to an argument. >> I would kill the beetle and hide. >> You have to if you choose that, you have to argue for it against Smeaggel. That's how the game works. >> I watched a YouTube >> What? But I am Smeaggle. >> You've chosen or are you Gollum? I watched a YouTube documentary on the making of Gollum and they interviewed a bunch of uh ex uh dedic employees and like the troubles with it. And the reason that one of the reasons this is so weird is because they tried to add so many different mechanics and just didn't have the time and budget and they only hired interns so they could pay them less and work them over time. Oh. >> Uh, so like this is they and they have there's strict confirmation that like the screen that what it looks like when they go into the argument was put together in like a few days because it was not finished because >> I can't believe it was put together in a few days >> because they were working on something like the companion mode which is used three times in the whole game. So there's just these random mechanics like there there's so many. Funny saying Gollum has so many pop once or twice. >> Yeah, if you think of all the different mini games that are in this game instead of and they and they were making 2D games before this. They they made like a few 3D games and it was a bunch of inexperienced people who didn't care about the mechanics because that, as you can tell by them talking, they only care about the story. That's all they cared about. >> Well, yeah. That's why the story of Gollum was so good. You could tell that's what they really focused their work in effort. If it if it was a 2D if it was a 2D point andclick game with that story, it would be like meh. >> But this is but like you it >> the worst mechanics ever cuz the story is the best part probably. It's just like inoffensive. >> I guess it's just like sort of a retelling of >> some vaguely Lord of the Rings stuff. >> Yeah. Look how like it's just the model like with an awful face animation over black cloud. Good morning. My name is Gollum. I'm very All right. >> It is time for It is time for >> uh possibly my favorite video on the internet I have ever seen. >> [ __ ] >> Get hyped. Everyone. >> Okay. Surely until Steven Colbear starts voice acting for his kind of >> Wayne Forester known for playing Haggard antagonist one in Elden Ring and Ricky from Xenolade and Smash Bros. >> Okay. Well, >> he's also Gollum for some reason. >> Please wonderful. >> Yes, indeed. Oh, yes, we are. We are. >> Well, the great thing about Gollum is, you know, he's like a mastrom of >> mixed emotions. Melrom of mixed emotions. >> There are two sides to >> God's so [ __ ] cool. >> Did you know? Did you know that there were two sides to his personality? >> He's the most interesting character in Lord of Rings >> to make a game about. Gollum really reveals himself very much when he's talking with Smeaggel, you know. So I tried to >> as opposed to just the silence. So yeah, probably when he would reveal it. Yeah, most often >> make the difference in the in the voices quite quite clear. It's quite a demanding role to play. >> It is pretty vocal as well. Gollum is a very kind of strained stressed. >> Yeah. And when you isolate the sounds he makes in the game, he does sound very stressed. just not in the way he intended. >> I mean, his voice is I mean, >> every time you're walking, >> well, let me put it this way. His his efforts made it so much funnier. >> Like the noises Gollum makes in the game. >> Oh, absolutely. >> There are literally >> elevates the game to a new level. >> Mhm. >> There's like close to 200 just ambient golem noises in the files. >> Ambient. What if they just like recorded him while he was like sleeping or something and then they put that into the they put that into the game unbeknownst to him. It's like, "Wow, you really nailed these weird random Gollum noises. This is incredible. How did you do this >> being? And I think to play that, you know, you have to be, you know, strained and >> this this stock triumphant music that's playing in the back of everything, >> especially like for all of us, we know that it's such a gigantic pile of [ __ ] All this music is playing. You know, >> there's like the virgin Gandalf who cries over a green screen versus like the gigachad Gollum who just like smiles and and happily [ __ ] talks to himself in the worst game ever released. >> Speaking of virgin Gandalf. >> Oh, >> brain. >> Is Gandalf a virgin? >> Wait, are you not going to follow that up with anything? >> Very unlikely, right? >> Thousands of years he's been alive. >> You'd be curious. Now you can Now you can look at Virgin Gandalf cuz this is the the face capture. >> Oh my god. Is that Is that Wizard off on the left there? >> I wasn't looking at the I wasn't looking at the screen. I thought you just dropped the mic after that display and then you will see subtitles like a if someone can't hear they can see that there's not a wizard on screen. You [ __ ] id. >> If anything he seemed happier before. >> Why are they doing it with the Iron Man helmet cam? Found the ring. >> Jervis Jarvis engaged protocols. Remove >> every pawn on Forester's face is the best image I've ever seen. >> They could have showed us anything. They chose this. >> It was ours. It was our birthday present. It was >> another >> I I think I just sympathize with Patrick Stewart. Like he's come from a Shakespearean background. And then he did Star Trek as Peicard. And then he he goes into sort of oblivion. He gets dots drawn on his face with a camera two inches away from his nose and has to pretend to voice act. And he's like, I hate everything. I'm going to give up from this point onwards in my career. >> He's going to get the he's going to pull a Sean Connory to be like, well, that's it. Enough for me. >> This is the end of my job. I'm here for the money. I made my uh >> I really wanted to push on the gas on some of the acting and some of the mood from the Golem part because he's he's the star of the game. He's the star of the story >> and he's basically >> telling me Gollum is the star of Golem. That's crazy. >> Lord of Spring is the star. >> Golem's all over the place. >> The music. >> This is the promotional material. Yeah, this is this is just promotion. >> I'm glad game. >> Oh, >> what an experience, you know. I'll deny it. >> I wish I could experience the Gollum for the first time again. >> They need to release all the face capture that they took for this game that didn't make the final cut. >> Every every Wayne Forester face. >> So, with that, that's a little bit that's like a refresher. It's like a little look see. Now, the reason that this happened even at all is it's action. because someone here has been playing Gollum and >> oh no >> they may have entered a It was funny when you were streaming I just I was just I was like oh god he's so close and loads of people in chat were like the carting section he's nearly there and it's just like it's just so iconic the carting section because everybody suffers there because they don't know how to it's very trial and error but it also just it'll dash your hopes in a particular way that is extremely entertaining and that is in you think you have hope but then you just don't because it keeps changing the rules. There's no way to intuit it what the [ __ ] is happening. And I may have because I was losing it watching it live, decided to cut it up and show it to everyone today. >> Oh my god. Oh my goodness. >> This is the story of Nick Dioro trying to complete the Gollum cotting section. >> 15 minutes. >> And I will say >> I made a cut. >> That's the cut down version. >> This is the cut down version. >> What happened? What happened is I made a cut down for uh version originally and it was three minutes and Mer's like that's too short. I'm like okay you make >> the reason it's too short I I was watching it and I was like you don't have enough of the seething pauses of of Nick just having to sit there >> knowing what's what's happened and what's to come. And there's there's a there's a pacing that happens when you you cut it in a way that that really relishes in all of the death. Um but I will say he he I think has beaten the record. The previous record was Platoon. Nick's got the highest record of >> Platoon had >> Oh, I got a record, guys. I must be good at >> Platoon had 28 and Nick Dioro literally doubled that. He died six times. >> So, you smashed the record. >> And by the way, Dispro, I don't know how familiar you are with this game, but this should easily sell you on wanting to stream it. Once you see this, you you'll think, "Oh, I've got to stream this." >> That was going to be one of my questions. Will watching this actually ruin like me playing it? Will is there like spoilers or is just not gameplay? >> No, >> it never goes wrong in the same way for two people. So, you'll be selling on it. >> This will want to play it. >> I think I saw as like fly into the sky and die and stuff. >> Everyone has different glitches. This is why it's so much fun to play this game. >> Oh my. No, no, no, no. >> Yeah, I've seen us do that. >> You think you can get me? Oh, you can. >> Oh, so you >> mean it's just a little bit of a tasteful little taste of what what this game is like. >> For people who who haven't seen my playthrough, um, in the very first mission, it glitched and the audio got stuck for the remainder of the game. >> So, every time I die, it goes, "WHAT DOES BEAST MEAN, PRECIOUS? IT'S IT'S HONESTLY so [ __ ] funny that you know that every time he dies, it'll play the stupid [ __ ] audio file every time. So, when he's going through something horrifically awful, like a glitch or some stupid [ __ ] you'll die. You'll be annoyed with that. And then you'll hit restart, it'll play the stupid file again. Actually, hell, >> that's pretty funny. >> Do you want to know how that happens? Cuz I reverse engineered some stuff in the game and figured it out how that glitch happens. You're not well. >> Really fun. Yeah, I know. >> Tell us great wizard how unwell I am. So, so for everyone next to the first one to notice, there's a line that repeats babuk. But you gave her water. No water. And that repeats every time you revive. And that is >> you know why I I picked up on it because it's the same f it sounds the same as the guy from Game of Thrones when HE'S LIKE NOW GOLD AND HE'S LIKE slapping Tyrion. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. >> Eerie, >> sorry I cut you off. >> Yeah, no, it's fine. But that uh so any time that an audio file is playing and you continue the game, thus cutting off that audio file, the game gets confused. So every time that that character model is loaded in, it will sit it will run that audio file every time you spawn in a game. >> That's [ __ ] crazy. So that so that line happens for everyone because that's right before the give head argument and that triggers automatically right when you >> I'm sorry the give you skip over that. I'm sorry. >> There's a there's an argument where a choice >> you got to talk yourself into it. >> There's an argument where a choice is to give bread and someone photoshop. >> Okay. >> It's great. But when you walk forward, >> when you walk forward, that triggers automatically. So that's why that glitch happens for everyone. But I watched Diorio stream back and when Gollum is saying that, he walks onto the cart and it interrupts that audio file, then goes to the next part. And I like recreated the glitch and got it on my save file, so I know that's how it happens. So, and I when in my stream, uh, I got Bell Gllum to say come every time he resurrects during like chapter seven. >> So, wow. You can it can happen to like any audio file if you just cut it off at the right part and continue the game. >> Well, knowing all of that makes it that much more funny that Nick has to go through this and we get to watch him. >> What does it mean? They'll feed us to some beast. But we told him Smeaggel will find it. We swear. >> Where am I going? Where do I go? I love that little scream that gets cut off the when you had you accidentally put the camera somewhere you didn't want. But it's okay. The loin cloth protected you. >> Oh. Oh, I go this way. I just got to drop down. >> Oh, freedom. >> You can tell I was already in a great mood when we got >> He said, "Oh, freedom." at the beginning of the caction. Isn't that brilliant? There's >> I mean >> there really is something about being trapped under that [ __ ] mountain for this long that really does just eat away at your soul. >> Me personally, I could have gone for a second cart section. I thought it was brilliant design. This >> was very fun. >> Freedom. It tastes sweet. >> Quick down on the cart. >> What do mean, Bruce? What does it mean? Every time he >> imagine be the guy driving the cart and that's what you just see randomly. He just drops down and you get the clumping over him. >> They'll feed us to some beast. But we told him Sneaggle will find out quick down on the cart. >> It's just like that one. >> He randomly died. >> All right, let's just give it one shot then I have to restart. We're all set. What does beasts mean? >> That that is his signal that he set something up. This is not an edit. You're going to hear some music. This is Nick's invention and it's it's honestly pretty uh I don't know if you should explain the context for it or not where it comes from the um >> Is there a context? >> Maybe after maybe after >> I I assume Yeah. I mean, fair >> original video if you if you want to like I I don't know. >> Probably no that one's going to hit copyright, I would assume. But like >> Yeah. Um, let's just I mean what the point is the music's going to come up and it's Nicholas playing it which makes it I think funnier. I have a feeling I understand what's going to happen. >> Feed us to some beast but we told him quick down on the car. >> Drop drop. Oh, you're like >> nope. Copyright. >> So this is his music not the freak. This this video passed, so I'm assuming we'll be fine. >> Yeah, my stream wants to claim credit for >> more. They're a tiny bit more strict on live, I think. Well, we'll be fine after this. That was the longest. >> Well, I streamed mine and I didn't get hit. >> Yeah, he streamed it. >> Oh, that's true. Yeah, I'm dumb. >> Um, but also just to to charge it up and then just immediately die. >> What the [ __ ] What? It was the perfect drum. >> What does it mean? >> I could have been absolutely keenos. >> What? Why did I die? >> I thought this was going to be like the big escape. [ __ ] >> dude. The real >> What does beasts mean, Precious? What does it mean? >> Is this the case level mean? What does it mean? >> Beast. >> But we told him we'll find out. Quick, down on the card. >> Okay. What am I doing wrong? >> What does beasts mean, precious? What does it mean? They'll feed us to some beast. >> All right. Maybe I should just go forward. Legal will find it. We swears quick. >> Oh, you jumped. >> HE BUMPED LIKE HE BUMPED his head on the back of the cart and he didn't. >> Dude, abusing Gollum in this game is so much fun. >> What does it mean? >> Feed us to some beast. But we told him Smeaggel will find it. We swear now. Quick, download the cards. >> Oh no. There you go. We made it through [ __ ] >> Get in. Get in. Oh no. >> What was the thought process there? What was going through the gas? >> What does it mean? >> These look like some janky controls. >> My rifle is [ __ ] imminent. >> But we told him will find it. We swear. Now quick down on the cart. >> Oh no. >> The way he changes supposed to jump on. What does it mean? Help me. What does it mean? >> But we told him will find it. We swear quick down on the cards. >> All right. Now get in. Get in. Damn it. When he jumps, >> you can't get in. You got to do something. >> You would think you could because they're obviously open. >> I thought that was the entire point of the game. >> No. >> Do I have to hang off the back of it? >> Just What does it mean? >> What am I supposed to do? [ __ ] die? Yeah. seems to be the reason. >> He's going to kill himself. >> Okay. >> God, the way he lands all the time. >> You can believe it takes a chunk out of his health anyway. >> There you go. There you go. >> My only took three minutes. >> Is he going to jump for it? >> No. Jump. I am way too invested in the story line that has already happened every time. >> Every [ __ ] time I get invested find out the rest. >> What does beasts mean? Precious >> this audio cube, man. Oh my god. >> Yo, every time he says that after a death, it starts to feel like when the game offers to turn the difficulty down, just this extra [ __ ] on you. You're like, "Fuck off. >> This [ __ ] This is so This is so underwhelming. I understand it now. That doesn't make it okay. Oh. Oh no. >> Why did they do this? >> What does it mean? >> They'll feed us to beast. >> But we told him Smeiggel will find it. We swear. >> I'm already sick of this voice line. Let me tell you. >> You know the failure. >> What does it mean? They'll feed us to feed us to zombies. He's clearly losing his mind already. >> He took damage and it cut off the audio. >> What are you doing? >> You can stand on the back of it. Get down. >> GOD DAMN IT. What this is beast mean? What does it mean? He'll feed us to some beast. But we told him will find it. We swear quick down on the car. >> Like he's playing halfife. >> What is he reaching for? >> Okay. All right. Am I supposed to believe? Oh, no. >> Obstacle cleared. Let's go. Next one. >> Jump. >> Jump. No jump. >> This beast's need down on the card. >> It's such a [ __ ] shitty game. I love it. Watch your head. >> You're driving the car like >> All right. Which way am I supposed to go here? >> Jump. >> You can just duck under. >> This is a [ __ ] jump. >> Yeah. Jump. Jump. >> Bro, what's crazy is that there's no reason for that obstacle to be an insta kill thing. >> You make it on the card or you don't. >> It just to kill you if you touch it. >> Beast. But we told him down on the card. >> All right, this is the one >> locked in. >> Absolutely. There's only 10 minutes left. >> What does peace mean? >> One thing I told Nick was like, you found every possible permutation of death. What does it mean? >> We told him behind it. We swear >> doesn't even know about the down. >> So this is the one down >> get ready for the job. >> Run >> on the right hand side cuz it's lower. >> Oh no. Do this. You're fighting to watch everyone around you >> what does it mean >> TURN TO DUST AND BLOW AWAY. >> YEAH. >> All right. >> There we go. >> This is it. Now started insulting >> one hop this time. Right foot. Left stomp. Left foot. Left stomp. Hands on your knees. >> No. No. He started just jamming the jump. >> There is no save point. >> Not yet. Not yet. >> Not yet. >> There's like three so long. What I love about it is it'll tilt you and you'll just start [ __ ] up the easy [ __ ] >> Beast mean? What does it mean? >> Oh [ __ ] Look. >> I hate this game. >> I hate this. I actually [ __ ] love. We're >> only 8 minutes in. Will find it. NO, >> there's like no [ __ ] reason he should die from that. But he >> Oh, no. You're not meant to be here. And then he just folds over. >> 30 seconds of anticipation before every death. >> What was that? Death. What kind? Instant. Yes. >> But they told him will forever down again with the pain. >> Nope. >> What does beasts mean? What does it mean if he does to some beast? But we told him I >> I love the audio. >> It's been it's been broken since first mission. >> For me, it's the happy cartoon like animation in the in the bottom right. It's just >> know where he is. like destruction of ego and no gonna carry on. >> Eagle-eyed eagle-eyed viewers would know that's Boogiey's front yard that he's standing in front of. >> It's over. It's over. I did it. >> Oh, no. It's not over. It's not over. >> Off the side. There we go. You got this. You got this. >> Yeah. >> Can't stop me now. >> Right. That's where I >> the Caribbean music behind us. >> What? What? What? What? There's no way. How could you see me? >> It's okay. >> He's got this. >> Jump over the next one. >> HE COULD GO. OH, >> THERE WE GO. YES. >> OH, YEAH. NICE. >> EASY. Easy game. >> No. >> I am way too invested in this game which has already happened. >> What does it mean? >> He's got a checkpoint. He's got a checkpoint. needs to play. >> There's going to be another cart, right? >> All right. Save. Oh, get up. >> Scrape some beasts mean. What does it mean? >> You should only dream of how many [ __ ] jump, bro. >> He'd still be there. That would be FMT would be dead. You even need a 24 hours. >> Sorry. That is one of my favorite ways to kill Gollum in history. >> What does beasts mean? >> Just [ __ ] slap his head against the wall as a beast. >> What does beast mean, Precious? What does it mean? Can you refund? >> I think this is >> what does it mean? They'll feed us to some beast. But we told him >> all right. Locking in now. >> No, that's the wrong way. What these beasts mean? >> No. >> Here we go. Here we go. Here we go. >> Yeah. >> Nicholas got it. How you were supposed TO DO THAT WITHOUT SIDES? >> OH, NO. NO. NO. >> Where do you even go? >> What the beast mean? What does it mean? >> No. >> This is This is one of the best sequences I've seen yet. What does he do? >> He'll feed us to some beast. But we told him >> when we're done with this, we're wrapping up simply no commentator tomorrow. >> All right, we got this. We're We're in >> How do you even do that on it? >> You'll never be done with this section. >> I didn't EVEN KNOW THAT WAS POSSIBLE. There's another one coming, right? face was in the wall. >> Can we see that? Hang on. >> Now, is that face art? Is the real >> Yeah, look at that. >> Modern art piece. >> Yeah, that's why. >> What does beasts mean, precious? What does it mean? >> We must get off this. >> I just didn't jump that time. You just didn't go up. >> What does beasts mean? Um, why did my my I I hit the input and it didn't go up. >> Beast. >> But we told him Smeiggel will find it. We swears up ahead. >> Beasts mean what does it mean? >> They'll feed us to some beast. >> But we told you we swear. >> Wait. >> What does beast mean, precious? What does it mean? How do you survive this? >> When you press an in button, you're like, it just didn't happen. No one in chat believes you at all. >> What? >> Screwdriver into the game. >> What this be? >> I hate this much. >> What does it mean? They'll feed us to some beast. >> Pump your head up his head. Will find it. Whoa, >> I almost just [ __ ] Oh my god. >> What does beast mean, precious? What does it mean? >> That was almost a leap pause. >> But we told him Smeiggel will find it. We swear. >> I didn't even know you could die. No way that I don't know what. >> Like I said, he found every way. >> Why can't I just get out and walk, please? Why can't I just get out and walk? Why can't I just walk out of corridor? >> Don't go into the bridge. >> One does not simply walk. >> We must get off this bridge. >> Bridges. What does it mean? >> Taxi. >> This is my Uber. >> Ahead. What beasts mean, precious? What does it mean? Look, the tunnel too dangerous. We must get off this bridge. What does beasts mean, precious? What does it mean? They'll feed us to some beast. >> What does beasts mean, precious? What does it mean? They'll feed us to some. But we don't. We swear. >> See, the problem is you didn't get a little wiggler wearing only the Smeiggel loin cloth. >> Yeah. If you did, you would have naked in the game. >> Naked Dioro in front of Boogie's bed. >> He's got the little brown square. He'll be fine. >> What does beasts mean? Precious. What does it mean? We must get off this bridge. >> Precious. Dr. Tunnel. Too dangerous. We must get off this bridge. >> Why did he hit the midair? >> What does it mean? They'll feed us the beast himmele will find it. I swear >> up ahead. >> No, he keep doing that. >> What the beasts mean, precious? What does it mean? They feed us to be the PewDiePie power takes over the longer I'm on the bridge. >> I feel it coursing in my face capture for saying that. >> Oh my god. >> No. No. No. Run. He snatched his feet from the jaws of survive that mean >> they'll feed us to some beast but we told him Smeiggel will find it we need to watch all of this again in like 6 months and laugh at it >> this beast's mean precious >> do what I do what do I do what I do I do >> no leaving >> we did it was yellow >> if he had known to jump he would have finished like in half the video's length This is crazy. >> I was I was I was praying so hard he would fall down and have to do it again. >> You can die and then have to do it again. >> Yeah, you can. I'm pretty sure I did that or someone did. It might have been >> It was you as random and platoon that did that from memory. >> Yeah, I I would have waited given the the cues. >> Thank you, toxic logger. Hateful brood. I appreciate you. >> No, no, no, no. NO, NO, NO, NO. WHAT does this mean, Precious? What does it >> Oh, no. How far back you go? >> He's safe. He's safe. >> Yeah. >> The like 5 seconds of dread that you have to do it all. >> Yeah. M back and stuff. >> So, disprove sold. >> Yeah, do it. >> Absolutely. I mean, like mixtape seems like an easier version of this game. Just by what I've just seen. >> Mix tape just required you to [ __ ] on doors. behind the clip that I saw. >> I I got to say I do miss mixtape cuz you didn't have to play that one. You got, you know, it just kind of happened around you. >> It's like Wolverine. >> Oh, well that's that's a big old controversy, isn't it? >> Is it? I think everyone's kind of tired of those types of games. >> No. Well, there's people who are defending the [ __ ] out of it. >> People fighting for it. Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to say that I didn't buy any PlayStation skin things for >> Did you Did you get the Phantom Wolverine skin? >> If there was, I'd have it. >> I love all that consumer slot. >> I'm going to I'm going to spoil a bit of the Halo Super cut just cuz it's so funny. Then Mer's like, I do not have the Fantas. I'm sorry. And then cut to Dioro. We got the Fantas, >> dude. I got the Uni days one at my college account. So funny. >> What was it like 40 bucks on eBay for like >> Yeah, they were selling it for crazy. >> So, one thing I want to make people aware of just for a little bit more of this goiness is uh on the official speedrun.com mixtape 2026, the record holder with 2 hours, 2 minutes, and 17 seconds is currently Ray Pitler. >> No. >> Oh my god. Really? I thought you made up that name. We Well, we kind of did. >> We did. It's someone from EA. >> It was created in the Supergirl uh EAP and it moved into the mixtape one pretty easily. >> You understand that you need to defend that forever and speedrun it every day like that guy from Spongebob. Like you need to you need to keep the speed mix alive so that generations. >> Yeah, good job. >> My favorite guy is the guy from 22 days ago that tried to beat it. He was like, "No, >> couldn't it have this?" >> Ray Pitler messaged me a few hours ago. He found a breakthrough glitch in Gollum and he might be able to get it. He's been working on the golem speed running. >> I've heard he really wants to get the golem. >> That we can have our influence seep into Ray Pillar stealing speedun spots. Yes. >> Um, so >> like half the Gollum speedrun is like finding spots where you can walk out of bounds and then platforming out of bounds. >> Uh, Mr. Danger, would it would it now be time? >> Yes. >> God, what >> do you have it? >> The I believe I do. Yes. Uh, >> okay. Yeah. So, you can just play. I'll explain what it is after we watch it because it's like 50 seconds long. It's >> sticking on the golem themes, you see. Mhm. Oh, hang on. Just making sure it's all up and running. Good. Boop. And >> Grumbbo Industries. He's Oh god. We're going to take credit for this. God, what am I going to say? >> We can talk candidly now. Welcome to the ward. >> Oh, Wald >> Waldri the the the Gollum Waldri crossover we all wanted. >> So, uh, walk us through what's happening. I should have got a a a link before uh like while it was playing. I'll send it in chat after you can subscribe to the You can Do you want to show the other two videos? I'll It's up to you if you want to show them. >> Oh, you talking about Do you want to do Biblically accurate first? That one? >> Yeah, I'll uh I'll just I'll describe what this is first. So, you can subscribe to the Grumbbo Industries YouTube channel for updates, but I and some people are working on a Lord of the Ring Gollum mod to add in as many EAP and funny things as possible. So, you saw in the trailer, we got emotes working to be Fortnite emotes now whenever you emote. And uh we got the Muller uh character model. And I want to replace all of the different main characters with everyone. Maybe even get you guys to voice their lines and lots of other stuff that I need. >> You should change this the music in the cart section to a royaltyree version of Freeird just the entire time every time you try to get free of Mordor. >> It was wonderful seeing Rockford Rockford in a cage. >> Yeah, that was that was my idea. And then someone else thought to put a pile of rocks next to the cage. because uh there's like a whole side mission with the the witch in the cage. So I So you we're gonna like replace all her lines with Stacy Rockford lines and have like a there's like an argument about whether you save her or not. >> Oh, death is the sentence. >> But if >> How the [ __ ] did you do this? Uh I well we have uh MikeMW in the Discord is our programmer and he's doing everything because he's insane. The only person who knows more about Gollum than me and he's had to descramble Gollum's spaghetti code and they also have uh there's security measures in the code to prevent modding. So every time he wants to change something he has to go through like five loopholes and >> change stuff around. I don't know anything about programming, but it's >> the sheer hubris to make a game like that and be like, you know what, >> we don't want modders [ __ ] with our vision, our creation. >> I'll uh he it took him a week just to import the Stacy Rockford character model in the game because he had to go through so much. And I'll send a link you can show it on uh stream. He was he was his test was replacing a wizard with uh >> with Van Slater and there was one glitch that was particularly funny. >> There's >> I have sent it. >> Let's see. Oh my god. >> Oh. Oh, and this is the I edited this. This is Wall Drag as the person on the poster. and then Gadriel up top. >> Hold on. >> You know, I mean, I think Didalic is closed as an industry. So, if there's any ex employees from Tidal who are big EAP fans that maybe get in touch with some of our people. >> Well, there's like three people currently playing Gollum. So, when the mod comes out, the player base will like double >> percentage wise. It'll be an incredible increase. If you would like to help, which we do need help, uh we need 3D modelers and I don't know why I said modelers like that. I'm I must be tired. Uh modelers and uh riggers. So, if anyone is experienced with Blender or Maya or anything like that, you can DM me on Discord and I'll add you and you can make assets for us. Yeah. One player playing Golem right now. Right now there's a sing there was one single person right now playing Lord of >> playing a few days ago a ago because I had to record all this. So one of those uh people in the recent chart is me. >> I mean the question I have is like why? >> Why make the mod? >> Both. Why make the mod? Why put in the effort to play the game to make the mod? >> Uh well high effort ship pose is my life calling. So that's one reason. I can actually respect that. No, I appreciate that. >> I'm I'll set I sent both the videos in private chat. You can show both of them. >> Oh, yes. >> And then well, periodic updates like this will be on the Grumble Industries YouTube >> channel. So, you can subscribe to that. So, this first glitch biblically accurate Gollum was the the bones we're all freaking out when we first tried to put in the evo. >> Be not afraid. >> Oh god, I don't know what I'm looking at. >> Transform. >> Jesus Christ. >> This is how you know it's working. >> For I have come to save you. >> Blood out of me. >> I think that's his tongue. >> Oh my god, look at his fingers. I want to have accurate. >> I want to like have that model but with wings like flying over Mordor somewhere. >> Distort your form. >> Oh my god. And then uh and then the other one uh the uh the other one I was recording stuff with emotes and I realized that when you emote in front of an enemy you are invincible. So sometime happens >> of course. >> Wait, what? >> You should make the longest emote of all time. I >> Wait, he doesn't even attack you. >> The new Matrix movie was wild. >> He's [ __ ] dodging it. Yeah. >> Oh, the iconic theme. >> The Matrix. Golem knows his [ __ ] man. No. >> So, it's coming along well, I suppose. >> Yeah. I assume in about six months or less, it will be done and anyone can play it as long as you own Gollum. >> What does this mean that you will spend longer on the mods than like the developers spent on the game? >> Yeah, definitely. Already we've been playing this a lot. >> Let's see. What is What is Gollum selling for? Or if I go to Steam, Gollum is currently on sale. Oh god, it's still >> full price >> right now for $49.95. >> It's $50. >> Oh my god, >> it's actually still $50. It is not on sale. >> Well, why should they give something that good away for free? >> Well, with that horrifying realization that Kalto just can't stay here anymore knowing that that's just that's just terrible. >> Oh god, >> he's going to have to go cuz that's >> I'm glad I never played the game. Honestly, >> are you would you missed out on >> these wonderful moments? >> I don't know. I don't know. Um, but yeah, just uh congratulations on eight years. That's that's really crazy. >> Thank you. >> And uh 400. That's also a pretty big milestone. And uh you know, last time uh you know, it was pretty fun uh because thanks for the uh shout out on the DMCA stuff as well. That was a huge help. >> Yeah, man. was a crazy crazy disaster. But >> thank you for breaking utterly Noah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. If I knew what the what the video would entail when I first got the idea to make it, I would have I did not I did not expect that to happen. So definitely definitely a wild ride, but uh hey, at the end uh turned out to be okay, I guess. So thanks for that, guys. And uh have a good rest of the stream. Good luck for however many hours you have. >> Oh, just about >> 13 or something. We'll we'll be fine. But thank you, dude. Thanks for coming. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> All right. Have a I was going to say have a good night, but good morning. Good night. Whatever time. >> We'll have a good night. We'll just be awake for it. >> Yeah. >> All right. All right. Sounds good. Cheers, [ __ ] Jens. >> Bye, boy. >> See you. The last thing on what can count as a golem's action is just I I saw this thanks to uh I think Goa sent me it actually. Um I assume you guys have seen this before. Lord of the Rings Rings of Power has a noncanon orc with an arc who turns against Sauron and even writes poetry. >> Honestly, >> no with an arc is funny. I've already had this going in the Hobbit though they had songs for the orcs and so this means they can write poetry. >> Anything is allowed at any point in history now. >> But Hitler had dogs. He's that means he's >> This isn't even like the idea that they would contextualize it in any way that would resemble a [ __ ] source material, dude. Like it's going to be a disaster. So, so one of the points is they're like, well, we don't know where where the orcs came from and so they have an arc and so the elves are going to find out the orcs are just like them. It's like, no, we know exactly where the orcs came from. Morgoth created them from the elves. Everybody knows this. The elves know this. It's not a secret. Um, and it it's kind of acting as if uh I suppose it's just like them. They're writing from their perspective that people just stumbled across the world yesterday. And so there is no history that goes back forth. It's just whatever they write now is the beginning of the cannon. Um, and that's where the rest of the series goes. >> Mhm. >> Well, great. >> Hope they like make a game about him. >> Poetry made. >> I said I would love for them to have been forced to make a sequel with half the time and they had to double the length of it just to see what they'd end up with. >> Just absolutely. >> The golem mod can count as a sequel if you interpret it as one. >> I think we should give this studio the next Halo game. Yes. And there has to be caught sections. Several. I'll just have one. >> It's like the Warthog run, but way worse. Yes. Way worse. >> They're like, "Can we use code from the previous game?" Like, "No, you can only use code from Golem." >> And they'll make it better on accident. >> Yeah, that's true. I'll be doing that. Um, yeah. You know, that that that that's that's probably a good place to say that we're mostly at the end cuz we're coming we're coming close to a limit, but we're not quite there yet. And that means it's probably time to make one of the crazy announcements. Okay, I've got something here. I got to I was going to it was going to be till next time, but now it's going to be this time cuz we've got enough time to fit it in. But you saw correctly chat in the intro the presence of a certain boo a bugonius. >> Oh goodness. >> Oh, this is sick. >> And you might be like, well, >> you guys usually do what? Well, what was the plan? like one Booaton section per per like per stream. I'm going to give you some bad news and then some >> I hate everything about this picture that you just put on the screen. >> What the [ __ ] the the orc or I didn't do anything yet? >> What? Wait, has my window randomly changed to a different >> What have you got on your screen? >> I'm just looking at dancing golem. That's my mic. >> It is an LBC video that has randomly played in a different video. I'm sorry. >> That is That is not me. Okay. So, >> on the screen right now, he has that one scene from Arcane where the guy kisses his daughter. >> No. Why would you even reference that? >> No. >> That's that thumbnail. >> Listen. Okay. Listen closely. >> We're in a position where you're not getting basically any boogie section this anniversary. And you might be like, "What? What's going on here?" Especially considering he's clearly foreshadowed in the intro. However, I must explain to you guys. I've been uh working on prep for this anniversary for about I want to say two weeks, two and a half. And I said this to Fringy. I was like, "Dude, I just realized with the decision that we've now made that the first like week and a bit is all work that does no longer go to the anniversary." >> Dude, you have no idea how much time Waller is spending on this. I was doing updates. As some may be aware, I check in on LCA Live or Boogie every once in a while and I just put a link with a little time stamp >> and I'm like, well, deal with that and you know, when we do the anniversary probably and I went to my notes for this year and my god, I was scrolling and I was like, Jesus Christ. And so I was like, okay, I guess I better start collecting and then putting them into sections and putting them together. Now, last time we had I think like three sections at 15 to 20 minutes or something. And um this this one got a little bit large uh to the point of being just about 2 and 1/2 hours long. >> And I realized like I can't even reasonably split this without it just overwhelming the entire anniversary, which you might in chat be like, well, do that then. Well, no. We we instead decided we'll do an episode for it, but not yet cuz it's still not even done. Okay. So, you're not getting it for the anniversary. That intro is now foreshadowing. We're prepping. We're gathering the Avengers. >> You had a whole thing set up. Now you're giving a trailer for the next episode. >> Well, so that that's what I'm about to show you. I made a trailer. Okay. >> And it cooks. >> It's really good. Okay. Yeah. I've already said >> it's a [ __ ] really good trailer. >> It's it's a good one. It's a fourminute trailer. >> It's really good. >> It It It contains one of my new favorite boogie quotes. >> We've watched two new We're watching two trailers in like an hour on EAT. >> There's just so much stuff to talk about. You know, >> we watched Marvel trailers before. >> This is the trailer anniversary trailer. >> I fig uh let this one uh let this >> Oh, well, I was thinking maybe we do two. But we can go one where we just let it play and the second we can talk about some things. So, >> do we have the time to talk about things? >> We not only I think it's going to fit perfectly. Honestly, I'm tracking everything. Don't you worry cuz Batoman is already ready. So, we're going to be fine. All right. But anyway, >> are you ready, chat? Cuz here comes >> I'm ready. >> Here comes the trailer. Here we go. >> People call me the Mr. Rogers of YouTube every once in a while. I faked cancer. I faked a stroke. And hopefully uh one of you will put a bullet in my brain. >> Stop, dude. >> Why is there like a grandma on the top right? What's going on? >> You literally broke the rules already, you [ __ ] >> I didn't pause it. >> What the? >> No pausing allowed on first run, right? Rags. >> This is Nicholas's fault. >> I see. >> And hopefully uh one of you will put a bullet in my brain. Stop, dude. >> Horrible things that I've done. >> Oh god. >> I have to be here tomorrow AND TOMORROW AND TOMORROW AND TOMORROW AND tomorrow and forever. This is my hell. >> You don't get to leave hell. >> In such a lowal. >> Oh god, >> [ __ ] me up for life. I'm not suicide baiting or anything like that. >> Oh yeah, that was >> I hate being alive. I hate being alive. >> There's so many you forget about them though. >> He's sick of your roles. >> I'm in the middle of an actual mental break. >> What the [ __ ] >> I'm going to deep throat my dad's [ __ ] because I'm jealous that he raped everyone but me. and the groups that we're dealing with now. >> I [ __ ] you, Dan. I [ __ ] you. >> I want you. >> This is a music video, not a trailer. >> I think you are the lowest of the low. >> Even though they are rapists and [ __ ] Nazis, they are more redeemable than you because get away with murder. >> At least they're doing something they [ __ ] believe in. Love you though. This can't be my legacy, man. I can't die while doing this show. I I can't have my last thing on the internet being me being a [ __ ] mall cow. >> Oh yeah, you can. >> Oh no. >> Oh god. >> I'm real. This isn't real. This isn't real. I'm ordained. I'm not going to lay down. I told you I can't. Not used to this level of scrutiny. >> No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Do not do it. >> One for me. >> What is he smashing? >> My sexual abuse involved my [ __ ] tits. My [ __ ] tip. >> Scream. >> Oh god. >> Holy. You make us all look bad. Go get the [ __ ] finally die. Godfucker. >> Kind of look like Ethan. >> Leave me the [ __ ] alone. Leave me the [ __ ] alone. >> Oh no. >> I have to print on some documents. >> Never did. I never did >> because she wanted him fired. [ __ ] I need my ass. >> Come on. >> Oh my god. Boogie. >> This [ __ ] gets me hyped up. >> I feel like he's about to >> come. >> Boogie. No. >> Lose weight like a goddamn [ __ ] >> [ __ ] you. Shut the [ __ ] up. >> Prosecuting your [ __ ] and you prank me for a >> Do you remember we had a death in the [ __ ] family and we worked through it to your name? >> I wish I beat Jordy to death in the [ __ ] ring. >> I'm done, man. I'm just done. I'm just done. I'm actually legitimately done. >> Just do a couple holes. It's all right. It means it's not going to make a difference. >> It's not even a >> I lost my income. I lost my channel. I lost my life. I lost my [ __ ] ability to walk. 52-y old man with liar tattooed to his face. I have to grow a a grizzly Adams beard to hide this [ __ ] so I can go to goddamn Walmart. You don't think I didn't pay the [ __ ] price. >> Jeez. >> Um, >> so Dispro, how much of that did you have you heard before? >> I have seen none of that. Like the only thing I know the only like generally the only thing I know about Boogie is his old YouTube videos where I used to pretend to be like an angry guy ranting at people. I I know nothing about his collapse except the whole >> heard tipples for the first time. >> The tipples commentary I've seen. I have not seen any of the clips because of only because of do I know about the tipples. >> We all remember where we were the first time we heard about tipples. you you don't get to leave hell is so [ __ ] funny to me. >> He's just stuck here. >> He says that while being fat and then throwing out of the the ground. >> So, uh my genius plan is pretty much that we'll end the with that, but we can start part two with talking about it because it'll be in the intro then as well. Uh because Batoman is gonna start in in approximately three minutes. So >> Oh god, >> we're just sinking up. All right. >> So >> I'm so happy this is >> Oh, go ahead. >> I just He's such a character. Like he it the the the opening it's so perfect to open with that he describes himself as the Mr. Rogers of uh of the internet. That that's what his reputation was. And it kind of was. >> It was. It really was. And remember, remember >> he didn't change. The mask slipped. That's the truth. >> There wasn't some dramatic change from being an awesome great person at this. He was always terrible. He was just >> free. Am I right that it it bothered you more than it probably would the average person because it did for me because I I did buy into it for a long time. Of course, cuz you know, like it's it it it works, right? Of like the first thing you'll see is him pretending to be Francis and then you're like, "Wow, this guy's a loser." And then he talks with a bassy voice and sounds like a sensible person. That's like very disarming. It's I I I dare I say clever, which is not something I would say that Boogie is at all. I'd say it's kind of an accident almost. But um but then but then for it to flip and and the the best part is that it makes it so that Francis is like supremely unfunner if you're much worse than he is, you know? >> Yeah. >> Shouldn't be the upgrade. >> Francis only works if the person who's playing him comes across as like actually a really good person when he's >> It sounds like a meme, but it is true. like he's worse than Francis because Francis the idea of the character is he's just like an id monster. He he's just honest about being selfish and angry and running around and trying to >> like a malicious psycho. >> Yeah. Versus Boogie who is really planning in like a you know very manipulative way to take as much advantage of everyone as possible. Like when he it sounds like a joke but he faked having cancer. He faked having a stroke. That was one of the ones that's happened since we last covered him. >> Um and of course the reason that's a trailer but it is also a music video. Like I'll I'll put it out on its own and you can just [ __ ] have fun with it if you want. >> That should look like a UFC promo. >> Well, yeah. I mean, you know, it's uh it's there's some fun to be had with it, but like the ring >> expand into like we're going to we're going to check out the context for a lot of those clips. >> It is so much new [ __ ] >> Are you going to be able to do it in one episode? >> Uh we've done it before. I think even part one and two of Boogie stuff was longer than two and a half hours. >> We've done it before. from Mer says is he's standing over the corpse of four boogie episodes. >> I mean, he's planning a 24-hour stream. We've got time. >> Yeah, we'll figure it out. It's going to be fun. >> And uh the reason I'm looking forward to it the most is because the plan is to change Grash and Gollum into Boogie. So, I need as many Boogie clips. >> Oh, you'll have your quotes. >> No, I'm gonna I'm gonna have to rewatch everything and like piece it together to fit with Gollum's dialogue. So, this will >> helpful. Desper you asked like what was it he was destroying? You'll have to tune in to find out even though some people here will probably already know what it is. >> Very funny thing that he breaks that >> two fun facts about it is uh one it was completely unnecessary. You'll find out in the context like he just sort of does it. And then two the stream he did it on is you can't find it. Like it's even hard to find the clips. >> And then and number three it is irreplaceable. What he destroyed is irreplaceable. Well, that's the thing. Like, so generally if someone destroys something on stream, it's often pre-planned. They know they're going to do it. They're doing it for a storyline purpose and so it's something they don't actually care about. But the stuff that he seems to destroy on stream seems to be like genuinely things that he likes. Like he actually >> it was not thought out. He did not think it through. It was a really dumb idea from that standpoint of essentially trying to farm. To be clear, the reason that stream went down, I'm pretty sure, is because there was too many threats to to killing people from him. Like he he >> Oh, that's not even >> We'll get into more of it when we actually cover it, which uh we I can talk next time cuz we're about to run out of time. So, thank you all so much for joining us for part one of three of the 24-hour stream. 11 hours and 40 minutes done. We're sending you to Batoman. Enjoy that while we uh walk around, maybe go to toilet, maybe have a shower, maybe eat something. Who knows? And then we'll be back for round two. >> Years. That's how long it took to get >> years in round two. >> But uh for now, go ahead and enjoy reacting to Batoman season 2, episode 17, Kane Kate. And uh man, it'll be a throwback for us, I'm sure, as well. Thank you so much, everybody. Tood peep cheer. >> See you in a little bit. Enjoy. >> See you soon. Byebye. Set.