Education and Enrichment for Everyone: The State of Media in Vermont

Welcome to the fall 2026 EEE lecture series. Thank you all for coming. Today's our we're lucky to have Mark Johnson as our speaker. Mark has been a journalist in Vermont since 1982. He has worked in print, broadcast, and digital media, including 25 years as the host of the Mark Johnson Show, a two-hour daily public affairs program on radio stations WKDR and WDEV. He has hosted numerous election debates on radio and television and is a regular panelist on Vermont public's roundt news program Vermont this week. Mark is respected by Vermonters and his peers for his impartiality. Oh, it sounds like we're getting some some I can now I can whisper. for his impartiality, preparedness, insightful questioning, and getting the story behind the story. He currently works at WCAX, hosting 802 News, a podcast featuring interviews with public policy makers on issues relevant to Vermonters. After his radio career, Mark worked for 5 years at VT Digger as news reporter and senior editor and mentored many upandcoming reporters. He has also taught journalism at Champlne College. Mark is married to CCTV founder Lauren Glenn Davididian and together they have a daughter, Stella Rose Johnson. Please join me welcoming Mark. Thank you. >> I noticed my friend here had to talk as though we were at a golf tournament there for a moment. Um, thank you all very much for uh for coming and it was nice to see some familiar faces and I don't know about you but I felt this morning that um wave that uh of 911 and of course today is the 25th anniversary um the dubious distinction and you know it was a very beautiful morning just like it was 25 years ago And I'm sure we all had a moment of reflection about where we were on that um fateful day. Uh, I'd like to if we could just take a moment and just have a moment of silence and and just feel the gratitude that I'm sure we all have that we um weren't directly involved or perhaps some of you had friends that you lost in the u in the event. My my dad actually worked in the World Trade Center for 25 years and had retired about seven or eight years before that. His office was actually on the 60th floor. So it was not uh directly affected. But I every 911 I think about that and think about uh all the people that I was remembering today that so many people were told to not leave. And fortunately many just ignored that order and decided to leave. But um I would if we could just take a moment and acknowledge the um the people that were lost, the people who helped and um the great fortune that all of us have. So thanks for that. I'm I am going to work off um some notes that I have um because I have some numbers that I want to share with you as we go along here. And my intent today is to tell you about the state of the media here in Vermont, but I I think it's important that I also give you the frame of what's going on here nationally. So that's really we're going to start I guess with the bad news and um rest assured it it it gets better. Uh we're in a better situation here in Vermont than I think we are nationally and in particular I think the world of newspapers is the area that has really greatly greatly suffered. There are um there are organizations that have been studying this and the the numbers are actually pretty dramatic. Uh so here's the here are a few of the numbers that I want you to ponder. So on the national scene um newspapers across the country continue in this steep decline. I think most of you are aware of why this is happening. This is really for better for worse the health and size of newspapers is driven largely by how many ads there are. It isn't I would love to believe that it was driven by the great editorial content news content but the truth is that newspapers expand and contract given the size of how many ads there are. And um the the advent of social media had a really huge impact on newspapers. When I was working at the Burlington Free Press, people would describe it as a as a printing press of money. It was the only game in town. This was in the 1980s and it literally, you know, every classified ad was in there. Every real estate ad was in there. And today, you know, classified ads are on Facebook, Instagram, every other social media. You know, we have we have Zillow, which now is basically the place where you find real estate listings. So, you know, newspapers have really suffered as a result. When I was at the Burlington Free Press, it was a four section paper. Um, you know, each section was 16 to 20 pages. It was a pretty thick newspaper. On Sundays it was even thicker. And you know today I've picked up the Free Press at times and it's 16 pages and my high school uh newspaper was the same size as that and that is a just a really sad reflection uh of the times. So in the last since 2005 which is you know 20 years ago close to 40% of the local newspapers across this country have completely shut down. There are now um so that's a that's a decrease of you know 40% of just they're gone. We now in this country have about 50 million Americans who are living in what are now called news deserts. And a news desert is defined as a place that either has no local newspaper or has one source. And while one source is good, the problem with that is that if it's a source that's not necessarily reliable or it has a particular political bent, you're not getting the benefit of having two organizations that can essentially keep one another honest. So we're now in a country where one out of seven people are living somewhere where there are zero or one local news outlet. There um are 213 counties in the United States that have no news outlets at all. There are a little over 1500 that have only one. Uh and if you're wondering how many counties there are in the United States, I looked it up and there are 31 3,150. So that's a that's a pretty sad state of affairs. And not only um are the number of newspapers shrinking, the the size of the staffs are too. So you can have a news organization that's still in existence, but it is a shadow of its former self. And again, I you know, at the risk of sounding like one of those people that, you know, is glorifying the old days and I remember when ice cream cones were a nickel that, you know, when I was at the free press, we had a robust newsroom that had about 60 people in it. And if they're I mean this includes the photographers, this includes the copy editors, this includes the reporters, this includes the editors, you know, the editorial board staff, um the managing editor, and the the whole layer of people that would take my copy and make it look even better. And now, um the last count that I had, that's down to about 10. So, you know, so you know, so the free press wouldn't be one in the category of a newspaper that has closed, but it is a greatly diminished and it's really a shadow of its former self. And that that's not a criticism. That's just the reality. So the the statistic that backs this up is that for every 100,000 Americans, there used to be 40 journalists that were covering just local news. Today that number is [snorts] 7.8. So that's um with my quick math that's that's a roughly 80% drop in just the number of reporters that are out there. And so you know why does that matter? Well, here's why. when you're um have a local newspaper that has a staff that's that diminished, they can't really get to a all of the stories, but they also are not really getting to the depth of the stories that really are are relevant. And here's the example that I'll give you. When I was the city hall reporter for the free press, I would go to what were called the board of finance meetings. Of course, I would go to the city council back then. It was the board of alderman meetings on Monday night, but really where the action happened was at the board of finance level. That's where you would have a a group of um it was three aldermen and it was the the mayor and the city treasurer and in reality that's where the decisions were being made at that level and then they would make a recommendation up to the city council level. But, you know, I really found that covering the the board of finance was where the action happened and really the city council or the board of alderman back then was presented with almost a fade accomply and they would either vote up or down or rubber stamp what the board of finance had done. So, you know, covering the board of finance was where you would really find out the the the tug back and forth of how the decisions were made. You know, the planning commission in Burlington was an incredibly powerful body. They would decide developments whether or not they would get the thumbs up or the thumbs down. You know, those kinds of um stories and those kinds of bodies are just no longer being covered because they simply they simply can't be. So, you may get a Burlington reporter who covers the city council meetings, but you're really kind of missing the whole nuance of what's happening underneath. Um, and you know, I um, as was mentioned in the introduction, you know, I'm now working at WCAX. They do, I think, for television news a pretty darn good job. But the reality is that television is not what you want to depend on for that nuance that I was just talking about. You know, a long story on TV is maybe two to two and a half minutes long. CX actually has a little bit longer, but you know, it's probably more like three or four minutes long. So you're getting the topline number of what you're using the example the city budget you know they'll say it's x amount but unless there is something really quirky in the budget or there's an argument at the city council meeting it's not going to get more than a three or four minute treatment. So, you know, this loss of these local newspapers, news organizations are incredibly important. Um, I'm not going to go a lot further here on that before I mention one other thing because, um, I do want to go home and not get in trouble. And now that Travis is here, I do want to mention to you that on the upside, one of the positive things that's gone on in local news is that public access TV, which my wife was really the driving force in starting in Vermont, there are now 24 centers across Vermont covering well over 90% of the state who are recording city council meetings. meetings. Uh I think they even go down to, you know, sort of that lower level, maybe not the board of finance, but there are so many meetings that are being recorded all across Vermont. And you know, not only are they important sources of information for you that you can go back and look at, they're recorded. You can go to their website and you can download them. But the other thing that I think is a just a reality is that if you have a camera in a room, the accountability factor for public officials goes way up. It's, you know, one of the concerns that I really have about what's going on now is there are so many things that are happening in city governments, town governments, even at the Vermont legislature where there's no reporter in the room. There's no camera in the room. And you know, I generally am not so cynical that I want to think the best of people, but the reality is that there are things going on in these rooms and decisions that are being made, conflicts of interest that are going on that would not be happening if there was a reporter or a camera in the room. So that that's a real loss. But, you know, and and I am not just saying this to stay out of trouble and make sure I get dinner tonight, but it it really, you know, it's an incredibly valuable service to have, you know, have people like Travis who are out covering covering these meetings and, you know, they are there in perpetuity. You can go back and and look at the archives of CCTV. You know, you can see press conferences that Bernie Sanders had 40 years ago and um when he ran for president, there were national reporters that came into CCTV and spent, you know, days on end going through every uh tape that was tagged with his name. Not necessarily for the the best of purposes. they were, you know, really trying to find something that he said that they could grab on and use and kind of exploit. But the fact of the matter is that that they're there and I think they're a, you know, really important part of the public record and there are not a lot of states that have the depth and the breadth of public access TV that Vermont does. We're very fortunate. This is just a side note. You know, one of the challenges right now with public access TV is that it's funded through the cable revenue and as all of us are abandoning our cable TV and signing up for Netflix and HBO and everything else, um the revenue for the cable industry is going down, which means that the revenue for public access is going down. So, um, my wife Lauren Glendidian has been very active going down to the Vermont legislature seeking state funding. And I think one of the few upsides of the pandemic was that during the pandemic, the um legislature was basically covered through public access TV. And I think they started to understand the value of this as a connection to you as a as a as a news consumer. Um so we talked a little bit about um news deserts and um the reasons that uh these organizations have really declined. Um the other I think elephant in the room is that not only are newspapers and media organization shrinking but the media in this country rightfully or wrongfully is just under attack and under assault. And I just am appalled every day at some of the claims that are made against the national media. And you know, um, I'll just say it. You know, Donald Trump is a bully. And Donald Trump is a is a bully in a lot of different respects, but he is a bully when it comes to the media. And these actions have a a very strong chilling effect. They there was recently a case where uh there was this case with the the airplane that the Qatari government gave the president to uses Air Force One and there were security concerns that were raised about this and this is information that wound up in the New York Times. Well, the immediate reaction of the Trump administration was to go after the reporters and find out who leaked this information. God help the person that did. And um there were subpoenas that were issued against New York Times reporters to find out who had given them this information. They went as far as in the case they were subpoening phone records in a lot of cases, you know, trying to find out who these reporters have been on the phone with. This included people that were relatives of the reporters. There was one reporter whose mother had her phone record subpoenaed. This ultimately was withdrawn, but you know, the message was pretty loud and clear that this could happen to anybody. Now, you know, I know some people get uncomfortable with the idea of leaks, but you know, the fact of the matter is you wouldn't have known about Watergate. you wouldn't have known about the Pentagon papers and some other important stories were it not for somebody deciding to leak that information. And you know, the New York Times can fight something like these subpoenas. You know, they're one of the really healthy organizations still out there. And but you know, the effect that it has on smaller publications is quite chilling. for you to fight one of these subpoenas. I don't even want to know what the cost of that was. But small news organizations can't possibly afford the amount of legal representation that you need just to fight these off. The the other area that just I I'm just so disappointed and so dumbfounded by are these settlements that have been made. I mean, the Trump administration has gone after Paramount, they've gone after ABC, and you know, in in one case, they went after um CBS for uh an interview that they did with Kla Harris. And this was a case where Kla Harris was interviewed for 60 minutes and then she was also interviewed for an earlier the morning show. the the claim by the Trump administration was that the these quotes that she had had been edited in a way to make her not look as bad and therefore to make Donald Trump um look look worse than her. And you know, editing people's comments is standard operating procedure. You know, in the podcast that I do, I try to do as little as possible. I've debated whether to take out all the ums and that some of the people I interview, and I try to take the side of the listener, and I say, I've got to clean these up a little bit. Well, this answer that Kla Harris gave was sort of a runon kind of thing. And um but this is a standard thing that that that news organizations do that you shorten somebody's just run on comment. And he um went after them and I I I mean this is just incredible. Um he initially the Trump administration sued for $10 billion. They then um after this was challenged decided to up it to $20 billion and CBS and Paramount settled this case for $16 million. And you know I say to myself, well great. This is sending a message. You know the the last thing as we all know that you want to do with a bully is to enable and encourage the bully. you know, you got to stand up to the bully. So, and you know, the reason for this was that Paramount um was in the middle of a merger and they wanted FCC approval for this merger. So, this was basically and this was a merger that was $8.4 billion. So the $16 million that they came up with to pay off to get rid of this threat by the Trump administration was basically a rounding error in that in that um transaction. And you know, I just find that appalling because again, just like the earlier case that I cited, you know, that with the New York Times, you know, that just encourages Donald Trump and and it's not just him. You know, the head of the FCC right now has no qualifications for that job. They're the ones that are the chief regulator. It's supposed to be a dispassionate um body that looks at applications without any sort of political bent. And the message they're sending when you settle these cases is that they're just going to keep happening and happening. And again, you know, CBS can do that, but it's the little guy. George Stephanopoulos, um I don't know if any of you watch his show, but he uh had an interview with somebody where he said that President Trump had been uh convicted of sexual assault. and it really was sexual abuse. Well, this turned into this whole baloo and resulted in um again another you know enormous payout 15 million bucks. These this money by the way all goes to organizations that are either organizations where Donald Trump can then steer them to charitable organizations or to his presidential library. I mean it the it's not directly going into his pocket, but it's pretty damn close. And the you know the thing about the George Stephanopoulos case that was outrageous is that one of the things about the news business, the standard for liel and slander for public officials is pretty high. It's not like the rest of us. And you know that's so that we can have a free and robust press. And you know, most of these cases are settled with a retraction, a correction. You'll see in a paper, maybe if it's really egregious, you issue an apology. But, you know, mistakes happen in the course of reporting news. But to have an organization kick $15 million his way for something that is a bit nuanced. um again to me is you know just it's it's it's just this incredible um chilling effect and you know I mean in some cases these are self-inflicted wounds but um still the numbers are are are damaging the the other issue and I we'll get to some good news here in a moment I swear um you know the other problem is that these are some of these are self-inflicted and Right now the national media the the trust factor as it's described in the national media and media in general is at the lowest that has been since these kind of surveys are being taken. There are right now today 28% of Americans who express a great deal or fair amount of trust in newspapers, television, and radio to report the news fully, accurately, and fairly. That's gone down every year since this has been recorded. It was 40% 5 years ago. At its highest level was right after Watergate. Uh, and it was about 72%. And you know, I know that people will say, "Well, that was a really long time ago." Well, it really wasn't. And, um, that's, you know, that's just a when the watchdog isn't believed. And you know, as these newspapers are shrinking and they're more and more covering um you know, uh celebrities and conflict and not really getting into news that may be a little boring but may be more important to you. Uh that's a that to me is a just a real concern. I mean that there was a number I looked up a week or so ago and trying to prepare for this. I mean, the amount of ink that gets spilled talking about Taylor Swift is um is I mean, it it's it's just it's heartbreaking to to somebody like me, and I hope I hope it is to you. It's, you know, it's all about the competition for um for eyeballs. And my you know, my daughter loves Taylor Swift, and a lot of Americans do, but it's just too much. Okay. So, let's talk a little bit to um um let's talk about Vermont. Um [snorts] total employment under the classification of newspaper newspaper publishing has fallen from 1446 workers in 2000 down to 358 by 2023. The average number of workers per newspaper in the state has gone and this goes back to the number I gave you about the free press from 28 employees in 2000. Today it is 8.3. So again, you know, you hear these numbers about newspapers closing and you bemoone that, but even the ones that are left are really struggling. You know, there's some really great success stories out there, too. I mean, I when I think of that number, what people could do with a few number of employees. One of my co-workers at the Free Press was Lisa Scal who lives in Waterberry. She and basically one other person, I think they have one tech person, too. She every week puts out the Waterberry record. Waterberry is an important community. I mean, it's really kind of at the crossroads. It had a pretty robust newspaper up until a few years ago that was owned by the STO reporter people, too. And you know, this woman is working essentially for free, six days a week, covering as many meetings as she possibly can. And you know that community would not have any news coverage unless something dramatic um were to happen there. So you know there are people out there that are doing just this you know in incredible work out there. Um there are seven daily newspapers left in Vermont. There are about 20 weeklies and you know some of those weeklies are really doing great and are really quite healthy. You know when I think of the news media in Vermont I really kind of think of the big three are seven days um Vermont Digger and Vermont Public Vermont. And really when I say Vermont Public I mean more Vermont Public Radio. They are far and away. I mean, they're kind of way up here and everybody else is kind of down here. And you know, 7 Days is just a fantastic organization. They do stories that have incredible depth. I mean, their cover story this week was about this decline in the number of birthing centers in Vermont. I mean, you know, uh, this is an important story. I mean, we all have the benefit, I think most people that are here live in Chittney County, maybe, you know, so there's the University of Vermont Medical Center. It's, you know, top rated organization. if you live down near Dartmouth, but you know, when you have a birthing center closed in your community, um, and you're a long way from, uh, you know, things are unpredictable in a pregnancy and not having these birthing centers open. So, you know, they have a story that is probably an 8 to 10,000word story about this and that's what, you know, that's what it deserves. Vermont public has, I think, the best coverage of the Vermont State House, um, Peter Hersshfeld, Mark Davis, uh, Lola Dufour. These are all people that I've known for years. You know, Pete Hersshfeld has been working at Vermont Public now for probably 15 years. He worked at the Times Argus for probably six or seven before that. I mean, this is a guy who knows what meeting to go to at the state house where there's a going to be a flash point. You know, Mark Davis is just a fantastic reporter. I worked with Lola at Vermont Digger. um she left Vermont Digger which was a loss for Digger. Um, but in any case, so you know, that's a that's you know, if I were to give you a list of places that you ought to be going to to get your news, you know, there's seven days, there's Vermont Public, you know, Vermont Digger, I think, has had some real challenges in the past few years, all of these organizations, even seven days, which you look at it and this week it was 92 pages, and you say, "Well, how could this newspaper be in any way struggling?" Well, Paula Rowley had a piece this week in her publishers um note and you looked at the size of the staff. I mean, you know, there is a very large staff there. It costs a lot of money to have in this day and age newspaper. you know, this gets that it's the cost of production is um certainly not what it it is to have a you know, an online organization like Vermont Digger. And you know, Vermont Digger's numbers have been and the pandemic was a was a real part of this, but it also is just again lack of of revenue. Um, philanthropists, I'm sure, in this state are having their door knocked on, you know, every other day by some worthwhile organization that is is looking for for help. Now, you know, um, one of the other trends that's going on in Vermont media, there was recently just last week an announcement that five newspapers, including the Stow Reporter, the paper in Morrisville, um, the one in Shelburn, uh, there were five, I can't now remember, South Burlington. Thank you. And there was a out ofstate organization that is now turning these papers from forprofit into nonprofit. And you know, and this organization that has bought them is, you know, I'm I'm I want to be hopeful about this. They have a track record which um gave me a little bit of concern because initially when they started out they just went on this huge buying spree and they wound up having to greatly retract and sell off a number of them because they they just really got out ahead of their skis. The the the good thing about this is that the sources of revenue for newspapers is no longer just advertising. It's philanthropy and it's grants. And by having a 501c3 and as a charitable organization, it opens up the possibility for you to support these organizations in in a way that might make up some of the gap that the advertisers do. But um and again, this was from Paula's uh publisher note this week. You know, that's all well and good, but you also need to have people that make the contri. It doesn't solve all of the problems right there with one fell swoop. You still need advertisers. You still need people to go into those advertisers and I mean I I do this as a common practice and say, "Thank you for advertising." And fill in the blank. If you do that one thing, the the difference that that makes to somebody who's an advertiser, it just it it changes the equation for them. They really feel like, oh, you know, somebody actually saw that. And you know, advertising, I I feel sympathy for people who are trying to advertise these days because you just don't know where to put your money. You know, do I put it in Facebook ads? Do I put it in, you know, seven days? Do I, you know, whatever. I mean, it it's a real challenge to figure out where you're gonna get the biggest bang for your buck. It used to be so easy. All you had to do was put ads in the Burlington Free Press and, you know, and everybody saw them. And again, the Free Press, you know, controlled the market for so long they could just charge whatever they wanted. So, it it that's that's a that's a real challenge. So, you know, I'm I'm hopeful that this group that's come in, they they're the organization is largely run by journalists. There are some of these organizations out there that are basically hedge funds that are not really interested in the journalism side. They're looking at these as grouping them together, trying to figure out a way to to make money. And, you know, if that works, great. um as long as they stay out of the newsroom, great. But uh a lot of cases, you know, they're answering to investors or people and it's it's the same problems as I was describing to you before with um the administration and and whatever. So I again, you know, I I read that story and I thought, "Oh, this is, you know, this is good." I mean, I I don't personally know Duke. This guy has been at the Stow Reporter since, you know, since um since before I was I started doing my radio show, which was in 1990. So, you know, he's he's been doing the work and I I hope he's able to get some relief. I mean, I think these organizations were all very close to um being out of business. So, um, so that you know, I I think the good news is that there's enough coverage with weeklys and dailies out there that there really aren't that many in and public access TV. And I count that as a news source. Um, and and also, you know, I know this isn't a traditional news source, but we are so fortunate in this state to have Front Porch Forum. And you know, and I I know a lot of it is lost dog, lost cat. Um there's, you know, furniture I'm trying to get rid of. I'll leave it at the end of my driveway. Please, somebody come pick it up. But, you know, at the same time, there's also information that's in there that, you know, we as news consumers, and I am, and you are, uh, there's valuable information in there. And Front Porch Forum is only in Vermont and it is now in every single town in Vermont. And you know, Michael Wood Lewis and his wife um you know, hats off to them. They they have found a model that really works. I'm just astounded every time they put something on their page and they say, you know, we need to raise $200,000 in the next week. and you know every time they do it because people get it how important it is in terms of you know community and information how and so you know we're really blessed to have that as a and it's not a traditional news organization but it's you know part of the value of newspapers is so that we all feel like we're you know in a community together we all kind of know what's going on so I I I think that um I think they're just an important part of um the the equation. Um there has been you know I think one of the realities that we all have to accept and it's sort of like the discussion I've been having with people lately about AI. You know, the world of the internet is here to stay. So, organizations like Vermont Digger that are only online are just as valuable as, you know, the old print newspapers. I mean, I know um it could be challenging for some people to, you know, deal with the online world. You really want to, you know, hold that piece of paper. You want to come out Sunday morning and find that New York Times sitting right on your front front porch. But, you know, if you really want to be an active news consumer, you've got to get into the digital world. One of the other places that I'm going to jump around a little bit here and tell you about, um, do any of you read the Vermont Political Observer, John Walters? Yes. Okay. So, if you take away anything from today, I would encourage you, it's the Vermont Political Observer. It's vpo.org. John is been doing this for he did it in two segments in between. He was working at seven days, but he's he's got probably 15 years of experience. He was at New Hampshire Public Radio before this. I got to know John. He was my regular go-to guy as a fillin when I would go on vacation when I did my radio show at WDEV. He has he's a little bit of a kromagin. He's a little bit cynical, but he is reporting stuff that no one else is. And I I'll give you uh two examples just in the past week. So, we just got through a a primary where Amanda Janu beat Ally Richards for the Democratic nomination. So, John went through all of the um financial filings that candidates have to do. And what he discovered in the course of this was that Amanda Janu had to spend a lot of money in that Democratic primary in order to beat Ali Richards and had this is a round number about 50,000 bucks at at the end of that. So, you know, she is in order to be competitive against a fiveterm incumbent is going to have to raise a lot of money. Now, you know, I read a story like that and I say, hm, that's important information for me as a news consumer to know in order to evaluate. And maybe it's not as important to you as it is to me who watches politics like it's sports. But you know, I said to myself, "Wow, that is problematic for her." And you know what's appalling to me is that's an easy story. All you have to do is go over to the Secretary of State's office, ask for the public record, go through it. You don't even have to make a lot of phone calls on it. But that would be a story that Vermont Digger should have had. That's a story that I I don't think Vermont public had it. Maybe they did. They did. Okay, good. Um, but you know, one of the things that happens unfortunately in the news business is there's this sort of competitive thing where if John Walters gets a story, then ah, it becomes sort of less important. Well, we can just move on to something else. I I I think that was an incredibly valuable story and information that he did writing about the finances. He just wrote something two or three days ago that I've been in contact with him and saying, "Are you sure this isn't a misprint?" There was a filing that showed that John Rogers, who's the current lieutenant governor, uh was reimbursed $15,000 for mileage. um that you know that's a story that's worthy of and again maybe it was incorrectly filed. There's no enforcement that's done by the Secretary of State's office on campaign finance. They will go back and say, you know, amend your filing, but there's no there's no real teeth in the the enforcement of that. And, you know, I I want to see other news organizations follow up on that and ask, you know, ask the Republican, you know, Vermont Republican Committee, you know, what's going on with that? Because last time I got reimbursed for mileage for a job, I did some work for the Vermont Historical Society. We did an oral COVID project and I was getting 62 cents a mile. And I mean, you do the math and um that's about 24,000 miles that if if you're getting reimbursed $15,000. So, and again, maybe it was a misprint, maybe it was incorrect information. John is pretty scrupulous, so I'm sure it was reported correctly, but you know, again, that's a story that's worthy of a followup. And you know, when we've got [snorts] 7.8 eight reporters for every 100,000 people. Um, you know, that's a story that people may just move on and and not cover. So, you know, those are the kinds of stories that I think really um really should be covered. You know, I one of the things that greatly frustrates me and I worked at Vermont Digger for five years and it it's a you know, unfortunately they had to make cutbacks to the pandemic. um they got a very large grant at one point and the idea was to really sort of spend and hope the money followed and really expand the staff and I think it was the correct strategy at the time but then you know the pandemic hit and that sort of goal and dream just didn't come to pass but there is not today a reporter for Vermont Digger which is one of the big three as I call them that's covering Burlington and You know, I think there's a there's a there's a well-intentioned desire to cover a lot of Vermont. And it isn't all just about Burlington. You know, we all hear the there's Burlington and the rest of Vermont, but you know, Burlington and Chitten County are 25% of the population. You know, the city of Burlington, you can argue what's going on. you know, who's at blame, what's what's what are the underlying issues? Well, to not have a reporter dedicated to the city of Burlington by one of the three largest organizations to me is um is negligent. And I I just, you know, they're trying to cover things that are going on in South Royaltton, in Mbury, in St. Albins's and St. Johnsbury. And sometimes, you know, you can spread yourself a little too thin. But I just to to not have somebody full-time covering the city of Burlington given everything that's going on to me is just um is just really it's just a shame. Um but again, you know, they're an important organization. They are the they're sort of the poster child nationally is the model for how you do this with um you know being relying largely on grants uh reader support charitable contributions and you know the truth is charitable organi charitable contributions are an important way for you know all of us I mean it you know we all like the tax write off and you can support an organization all at the all at the same time. Uh, one other bright spot is the community news service that's going on at the um at the University of Vermont. This is being run by Richard Watts. it is the students are being trained for writing stories for a lot of these publications. I I get a little nervous because they're they're not um as experienced. They don't have the depth of experience of as a Peter Hersshfeld or the staff at at Seven Days. But at least, you know, there's this effort to try to sort of grow the next generation of reporters. I see you over there. Uh so um uh let me just mention one or two other places that I don't do any of you read Compass Vermont. Compass Vermont. Okay. This is an organization that's relatively new. It's again online. Uh the one thing that makes me a little nervous is it feels like it's AI driven. Um there aren't a lot of people that are being quoted in these stories, but there it's just, you know, if you're into information, it's a place that you can check out and you can read a lot of their stuff for free. So, tuck that one away. They did a story recently about the uh founder of Beta, which is the largest employer, I think, now in Chitten County. and the founder of it uh actually sold a fair amount of or not a fair amount but he's got a large number of shares but he was selling shares of his stock and they wrote about that. I didn't see that um being written about anywhere else. So let me just let me conclude with this. If you want to be a good news consumer here would be the diet and the recipe that I would encourage you to do. You have to read the New York Times. There are deals going on all the time for online. You can get it for a dollar a week for six months. You can get um if you're not reading Heather Cox Richardson, you're you you should be. I I I subscribe to her because I think the work she does is so important. You know, it's $50 a year. Uh, the Boston Globe, you can get a subscription for a dollar for six months. Paul Heights, who used to work at Seven Days, worked at Vermont Digger, is a fantastic reporter. He covers Vermont. And again, for a dollar, it's it's a dollar for six months. I went to cancel it at the end of six months and they wanted, you know, $50 for the rest of the year. And I said, "No, I don't want that." The guy finally came down. you gave me another six months for a dollar. So, um, you can, you know, kind of negotiate. Digger costs you nothing. Seven days costs you nothing. John Walters at Vermont Political Observer cost you nothing. And of course, watching CCTV, uh, won't cost you a dime. So, um, there's, you know, mix of good news and bad news, and I'd be happy to take any questions you might have. Sorry, I ran line there. >> [applause] >> Hello. Okay, so now we're ready for some questions. We have a few minutes and uh raise your hand if you if you have an this gentleman will speak. >> Thank [clears throat] you very much. Um I listened to your last comment about funding for these um individual papers. is that >> um you know one of the problems I think that you alluded to when you first started talking was about money in media and how it influences stories whether it's you're paying to have something printed or you're purchasing a story a story and then burying it to to stop it from being printed. >> Yeah. >> There are there any rules against that? number one. And number two is couldn't there possibly be some organization form of 501c3 or something where you get all these independent uh uh reporters and and papers like uh seven days and you've mentioned that could be funded through an organization for everybody and you could have like teleathons like they do for NPR. You can phone in and and it all goes and it goes to all the people that need it. You could and I know there have been discussions in Vermont about combining some of these in particular sort of the backend like the business part payroll etc. There are benefits to that but there are also drawbacks. I'm I'm a big believer in competition. There is nothing that made me work harder as a reporter at the free press as knowing what's Peter Fra doing over at the Vanguard and I better get that story done before Friday hits or he's going to beat me on that story. So I you know it's it's like we this happened in the business world too where all of these corporations combined there's this hope and dream that you're going to reduce expenses. it never seems to get passed on to the consumer and I worry about I think competition brings out the best in reporters and also in a lot of other industries there you know now there are umbrella organizations there's a thing called the Vermont Journalism Coalition which is really actively working to um get grant money I mean Vermont Digger Uh I'll speak about them specifically. I mean the Knight Foundation, there are a couple of other major national donors that really believe in the importance of local news. I mean Vermont Digger five or six years ago um got you know a $900,000 grant. The community journalism project at UVM again got and I it was hundreds of thousands of dollars. So there are, you know, national organizations out there that are helping prop this up. So I I I I get a little I get a little nervous about the idea of too much joining of forces or then we just have kind of one. Uh as far as your question about buying and burying news. Um, I just read Ronan Pharaoh, who's the son of Mia Pharaoh, who is an outstanding reporter, who wrote about his experience. He was working at NBC working on the um, Epstein file case and the NBC people were cozied up with the administration and he wound up taking the story over to the New Yorker. And the book that he wrote called Catch and Kill is about this practice where organizations will buy a story to bury it because the owners of that publication are uh want either want something from politicians or um for whatever reason, you know, it's buying influence. So there's nothing illegal about it. uh you know, you purchase a story, you can decide to publish it or not. You know, they were jerking Ronin Pharaoh around saying, "Well, you need to do more reporting on this, this, this, and this." He finally was able to get the story. And David Remnick, who works at the New Yorker, who's just an incredible reporter, who is now the the editor of it, said, "Yeah, I want that story. Bring it on." And they publish this in, you know, incredible series of pieces. and his book is one of the best books I've read this year. Yeah. Catch and kill by Rona Farrell. >> Hello. We have one on Zoom. You rightly described that a bully is enabled if you succumb to his bullying. Prime Minister Carney was is able to stand up to the bully and is hailed as the only leader on earth who has done so. Why do you think this is the case? The prime minister is a smart chap, but there are many others out there who are equally as smart. Why aren't they speaking up? >> Boy, that's a hard question. I I you know, I think what what really discourages me is, you know, particularly these American politicians who are in primaries or competitive races. And you know, apparently if you get Donald Trump's blessing, you get a certain block of of voters. Um, and you know, there these are people I think, you know, unfortunately people in power want to keep that power and they will do, you know, they'll they'll sell their soul to stay in power. And, you know, I don't know if the Canadian prime minister is going to be successful. I mean, the amount of pain that is being felt in the northern half of this state, including at some news organizations, but certainly in the tourism uh economy, is amazing. I mean, I'm pretty familiar with North Hero. I don't ever remember in the past there being a a no a vacancy sign outside of the two major hotels in North Dero in July and August. And every time I drove by them this summer, there were vacancies. So the and the Canadians rightfully are saying, "We're not coming here." And and I would do the same thing. So, you know, stay tuned on that one. I don't know what's going to happen with that. >> Yeah. Oh, good. >> In Mbury recently and got picked up a great big fat Edison Independent, >> fantastic newspaper. Yeah. The Lynn family. Um, you know, Angelo Lynn and Emerson Lynn. Emerson Lynn ran the St. Albid's messenger for years. The the Addison Independent is one of the great weeklies in this state, but they're in Mbury, which is a fairly wealthy community, but they, you know, they nobody's making a fortune doing this. You know, they're keeping the doors open. I don't know what his staffing if it's gone up and down, but thank goodness it's it's a still a very robust paper. Well, I think that's all we've got time for and everybody have a nice weekend. Enjoy the fall and thanks for coming back.