Ed Miliband’s Palestine Statement Changes Nothing! | A World on Fire #20

Israel has become a pariah state. Netanyahu is wanted for war crimes. And if you were to believe what you saw in the press, then Britain is spearheading a seismic shift away from towing Washington's line. Welcome back to a world on fire, where this week we're going to be cutting through the noise to explain what is really behind Britain apparently turning away from Israel. So, welcome back. >> Thank you. >> So, we weren't going to have a podcast. Yeah, we weren't going to shoot this week, but obviously >> things have picked up in the news a lot. >> Yeah, big things are happening and it's being pushed in the news a lot. Yes, >> all of this stuff about Israel, >> Ed Milliband. And uh I think it would be worth stepping back to begin this episode talking about the world situation >> and also the crisis that Israeli society is currently undergoing. >> Because economically for the last three years >> there's been severe problems, massive dislocations because of this perma war that Israel is engaging in. >> Yes. Militarily, we've heard many reports of the the army being on the brink and politically the the situation is racked by crisis >> and now uh it's the first time next month in October >> that Israelis will be able to go to the polls. >> Yes. And >> it's been delayed. >> It's been delayed. It's been delayed. And >> it's very interesting when you follow the Israeli press because Netanyahu has beenounded at the moment. Yes, >> there was this big scoop that came out in Harets about Netanyahu knowing about the October 7th attack. >> Yes. >> Ahead of time. Um the the story goes that >> Yaya Sinoir had got in touch with the Emiratis, >> claimed that this attack was going to happen and that basically >> and that it would be a big attack. >> Yeah. That it would be I think the the language uses it would be an earthquake. >> Yes. and that Netanyahu uh chose to ignore this and >> didn't inform Shinbet, the security services or the military chiefs. >> And we should say that Netanyahu has been a deeply unpopular and polarizing figure in Israeli politics for a very very long time. >> Yes. He was polling quite low before October 7th. That's right. 2023. >> That's right. And in in uh in 2023 um all of a sudden his policies were bringing out people in mass because of that judicial grab that he was that power grab he was trying to make for the judiciary. And so at the moment uh there is a lot of hit pieces on him in the press and he's clinging on to power uh as much as he can and he the the whole country is kind of gripped by this war frenzy that he has whipped up. >> Yeah. the permanent state of war. That is how he has chosen to govern >> for the last couple of years and seems to continue. >> Um and it has put Israeli society in this kind of deadlock and nothing illustrates this more than the Iran war. um which we should say has actually been quite disastrous and has probably accelerated the pariah the the the this kind of formation that Israel is having now in terms of being a pariah state on the international stage which has been disastrous. Um also for the US >> the you know going to war with Iran is something that we've spoken about this before on the podcast. Netanyahu has been obsessed over. always wanted this and has been pushing and looking for a reason and preparing and promoting all of the propaganda that he needs to and then finally he found a moment in which he was he was able to forced Trump's hand um thinking that it would happen quite quickly. >> Yeah. >> Uh but that has not been the case at all. >> Yes. >> And and this is causing a lot of problems in the US but not just in the US. This also applies to Europe. This also applies to Britain where you have all of these countries in the west that are a part of western imperialism that in general back whatever the US does in this situation where this kind of seemingly erratic war is thrust onto the situation has a massive impact on the world economy on inflation but also is coming at a time when any war is deeply unpopular. >> Yes. and and this is the the the situation that a lot of European powers, including Britain, I would say, find itself in. And on and on top of that, it's it's not isolated from the broader movement around Palestine that has just grown every year um over the last three years. And and all of this means that I think the European powers in particular and and Britain, >> everyone is looking for an opportunity to disentangle themselves from Netanyahu. >> Yeah. in a big way >> also but we should say Netanyahu is an individual that's how they talk about it >> um and that is the the context in which I think we're seeing these statements coming out >> yeah that is the backdrop um of many European powers >> beginning to try distance themselves from from Israel and it's the context in which we should see this series of measures that we'll come on to a little bit later that Ed Milliband has proposed but >> it's worth saying that these sanctions on Israeli goods coming from the settlements has led to this domino effect. I think it's been carefully orchestrated of course, but Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Ireland, Norway, Iceland, Poland, Portugal, Spain, and Sweden, yeah, have followed suits. And I think a big factor is the upcoming elections. They wanting to to stress the distance between themselves and Netanyahu. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> And they can present as being mad >> as a Yes. Of course, as the full guy, right, for the last three years. Yeah. >> Um, and I would also say that there is probably some dim hope that whoever were to follow >> if Netanyahu was to be ousted would somehow be a little bit more moderate. >> Yes. >> Or would be perceived in a different way. Right. Like a kind of clean slate. >> Absolutely. >> But that's not going to put the issue to bed. And it's not really possible. And in fact, what what we've seen with Netanyahu is he is kind of the the clearest expression of something that's been happening in Israeli society for a very very long time. >> He is the product of decades of expansion of imperialist aggression, of constantly using the Palestine card as a way to whip up a frenzy within Israel >> and cement kind of social cohesion within Israeli society. >> Yeah. And in fact, if you go back to before 2023, um before the genocide began, I think between 2019 and 2023, there were four elections in the Israeli Knessa. >> And they were all hung parliaments. There was no easy coalition that was put together. And in fact, every iteration apart from one saw Netanyahu return as the president. And the final one, which is the iteration that is currently in government, had to rely on what? Religious Zionist parties, the most extreme hardline Zionist elements, settlers themselves like Ben Gavir, in order to basically resurrect this this Frankenstein's monster that has dragged Israeli society so violently to the right. And one of the things that has kept them in power for the last 3 years has of course been the genocide and the permanent state of war. But it has also been this myth that they fed the Israeli public of total victory, of total annihilation. Think back to the lines that they were saying after October 7th, right? No gar innocent. We'll complete the job. We'll cleanse the land and so on. So they have whipped up these high expectations that they're not able to really come good on at all. >> Yeah. And I think this is kind of part of the reason why Europe is or the European powers let's say are beginning to panic because there is no good options. Uh in fact things have shifted so far to the right and I would say to a large degree 12 nations coming out and sanctioning uh Israel without the green light really from the United States or without following suit of the United States is a way of them trying to to try to separate them or create the appearance of distance. right when all of them actually support Israel fundamentally. >> Yeah. And as you say, there's a kind of wishful, hopeful, quite frankly delusional thinking on their part that yeah, if someone else gets in, that will stop the direction of travel that Israeli society has been on been on for the last however many years. Um, but there isn't disagreement in all the parties on the fundamentals of the genocide. And so that isn't going to change. And and I think this is the point the whole world situation has reached a a kind of a logic where different individuals are not enough to change the direction of travel. And that even to a certain degree includes Trump. >> Trump when he was campaigning in the last election, a big part of his campaign was no more forever wars. And he spoke a lot about Ukraine, but this also applied to the Middle East. this idea of I'm going to pull us out of all of this stuff because he was in his own distorted way a bit in touch with that mood in the US against wars, against spending all of this money. >> And yet what he's found is that he hasn't been able to disentangle himself. In fact, it's largely perceived even within the US that he was duped into this war um in Iran. It hasn't made him look like the strong man, which in a way is what he was trying to do. he was trying to distract from the Epstein files, you know, he's trying to show that he has this, you know, like, yeah, strong position. That's not the case. Um, that's not the case at all. And actually, what's happened is he's fallen into this war and that has split his own base. Um, and we've spoken about this and we've written about this, the fact that the the MAGA movement has been going through, well, it was inevitable that it was going to go through a split of this kind, a kind of class split. um where the war is so deeply unpopular. So he's been criticized immensely even from other prominent MAGA figures like Tucker Carlson and and these types who have exposed the the the rottness of this also the atrocities of this war and how they've killed people and and all of this but more fundamentally the fact that Trump wasn't the guy he said he was going to be. Yes. And he isn't the anti-war candidate. You cannot be the president of the US under capitalist basis and and and be anti-war. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Trump and Netanyahu have been having a very hard time in their their presses. >> Uh that's that's quite clear. But it's not to say that, for instance, the Europeans aren't as hawkish. Like >> absolutely, >> we we should make the case because our own press won't do it. Yes. >> That their Ukraine policy is just constantly feeding the the war machine that is leading to more and more Ukrainian deaths. >> Yes. and just keeping the Ukrainian army alive really with a drip feed of aid every so often. What limited stock piles the European powers have because they cannot reconcile themselves to the fact that we have a resurgent Russia that is now a major player on the world stage. And so it's not as if the European powers have become doves. And in fact, this does feed in to I'd say this this generalized feeling of the youth uh that the world we live in is one of just uneasy war. >> Yes, >> there's no uneasy pieces. There's no ceasefires that uh remain intact. In fact, what's happening in Ukraine, what's happening in Iran, what's happening in Palestine, all of these things are feeding into consciousness and creating this extremely angry generation >> that want to burn the whole thing down. >> Absolutely. In fact, you've just seen in the Netherlands a huge strike wave. It was the biggest strike wave in decades against militarism essentially and against what they're trying to do with the budget. And that follows movements we've seen across Europe in places like Germany against conscription against this wararmongering that all the European powers have been involved in. As you say, you know, a lot of the the EU and Europe, you know, they're trying to present themselves as though they're, you know, Trump is just mad or Netanyahu is just mad, but this we're not like that in Europe and and we're not as extreme. But that is not the case at all. European imperialism is responsible for a whole number of of atrocities but also yeah today in the Middle East and also we should say in Ukraine. Um and as you say in the minds of young people all of this coaleses into one block of these people represent war and death and destruction and and people are taking action off the back of it. And you know we have always said that Palestine in any case the Palestine movement it was it was about what Palestine represented. We said that Palestine was a lightning rod for all the accumulated anger in society. It wasn't just about the the moral outrage people felt of what they were seeing. There are many moral atrocities taking place all over the world. But but the the the the scale of the genocide or how far the ruling class was willing to go in its propaganda to defend it, it began to represent so much more. >> And that will continue to express itself whether the European powers changed their rhetoric on Palestine or not because it's gone too far deep into consciousness. And it's about I think it's as you say, it's about this this anti-war feeling more than more than anything. And I think that, you know, there's there's a wing of the ruling class that also senses that, which is why we should say all over the West in particular, the ruling class is split on how to deal one with questions of Palestine, you know, questions of Iran, all of this kind of stuff. Um, and we we we're seeing that in the US. And we should also say that, you know, when the ruling class is split, it creates a kind of it creates, how should you say, like cracks. >> Yeah. Space. space and into that space different things can form, new parties, but also the independent role of the masses, the independent role of the working class. That is why when the ruling class is split, it's such a dangerous moment. Um, and it's and it's important for us to highlight because Lenin actually when describing the different conditions that should be in place or need to be in place for a revolution, the first one he mentions is this that the ruling class itself is split. um that alone is not is not enough but it is an important factor of the situation today. The ruling class can't agree on how to move forward. >> Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. And it reminds me actually of a quote by a French revolutionary where maybe it was a French conservative, I can't remember now, but they said the most dangerous thing an unpopular government can do is introduce reforms. >> Yeah. >> Because all of a sudden it vindicates what people have been fighting for for so long. Mhm. >> So, of course, it's it's a great thing that our enemy are are split on this question. >> And I think this this general split on how to deal with the Middle East, the US said it was going to try to disentangle. It's now more entangled than ever. >> Yeah. um has actually created a bit of breathing space for the smaller powers, for the the minnows on the world stage, the likes of Britain, >> because this is really the the background of British imperialism puffing up its chest and creating the appearance of making its own independent foreign policy, charting its own course, as an article in the Middle East I really gushingly uh putter. And the things that have followed Milliban's announcement, his language of comprehensive reset, seismic shift, and it's quite clear to me that Milliband and Burnham, they're trying to resuscitate the image of the Labor Party, >> which under Star's rule was seen as the party of war and the party of genocide and also the party of repression as well, we should say. And it really did look like Starmer was leading the Labour Party into electoral oblivion. >> Yes. And I would say that was even the case when Starmmer was first elected in 2024. We said in 2024 that election was really defined. There was hatred towards the Tories. But also um the the questions that were dominating people's minds were austerity and Palestine because obviously in 2024 you also saw um independent MPs that were elected on connecting the question of Palestine to austerity we should say >> and so so Palestine has been the the political question a huge political question that's kind of haunted Star and the Labor government since they came to power um and and that was because right at the peak of the genocide side when Israel were going so hard. He famously said in an interview that Israel had the right to cut off food, aid and water and and the Palestine movement has never let him forget that and has never forgiven him for that. >> And throughout, you know, his time in power, they he did different things to try and give a few concessions. You know, they announced partial arms embargos and this and that and then they recognized Palestine >> Palestine last year. Um, so they did a few they did a few different things, but none of this was enough because at the same time you had David Lammy, foreign secretary at the time, saying that it was legal to bomb refugee camps. >> Yes. >> At the same time, they prescribed Palestine action as a terrorist organization. And as you say, I saw something the other day that said the the we've seen the highest amount of arrests for terrorism in the last however many years >> because of Palestine action, [laughter] >> not because of the any other threats that are that are taking place. >> Yeah, I've seen that chart too of the war on terror and all of a sudden it just massive massive spike as soon as it gets to old people, octogenarians, priests, Holocaust survivors holding up a piece of cardboard on Parliament Square. >> Had to take them away. >> Yeah. And so that has been deeply embedded in people's minds. That's their perception of the Labor Party. >> And even though people probably haven't followed so closely this or that policy announcement, >> it's quite clear when you look at the the May elections when Labor Party got an absolute dubbing. In fact, I read an article that said if you were to sign up as a counselor for any party and subscribe to the Palestine Solidarity Campaign Charter, you were more likely to get elected in May 2026 in Britain than if you were to sign up as a Labour candidate, which is quite remarkable. That does say something. >> And it's not just that Labour did badly, also the Greens did well. >> Yes. >> Because I remember and we discussed this, Zach Palansky even campaigned about why it is relevant to talk about Palestine in the local elections. >> Yeah. And used the word genocide to describe what was taking place in Gaza and talked about NATO being imperialist. >> Yes. and was quite good when uh when quizzed on the question by right-wing press on this question about anti-semitism not being the same as anti-ionism. >> Yes. >> And so feeling that pressure to the left clearly what Burnham is trying to do is almost get back the Palestine vote. >> Yeah. >> And I think this is altogether what we understand as contributing to this so-called brave principled political stance. The US is embroiled in an unwininnable war and actually the tensions between Israel and the United States provided a bit of breathing space for European powers to stand up for themselves a little bit or a better way of putting it would probably be to begin to actually reflect public opinion in their own countries. And that public opinion hasn't just come out of anywhere. It's been forged through the powerful struggle uh on the streets for Palestine. >> Yeah. which in a sense then feeds into kind of narrow and cynical uh electoral calculations of the Labour party. I think it's really as simple as that. >> Yeah. Yeah. They're definitely trying to cut across the greens. They're just it's what this whole uh performance has been about is as you said earlier just rehabilitating the perception of the Labour Party. That is Andy Bernham's mission. Yes. It's to change how the Labour Party is perceived um >> with his regional accent >> with his regional accent and the fact that outside of Parliament he doesn't want to wear a suit and all this and all this nonsense. And there's a lot of nauseating stuff from Bernham, but we want to focus a bit on Ed Milliband. Yeah. >> Um and the speech that he that he made uh which is being you know posted all over all over it was dominating the headlines yesterday and also today >> which people have said is this remarkable thing. We should always be proud that it was a Labor government that took the historic step of recognizing the state of Palestine. >> But the prime minister is right to say that the Labor government has not done enough in the face of what is happening. So today marks the beginning of a new approach. An approach, an approach that not only calls out injustice and suffering, but acts. And in taking this stance, I make a very clear distinction which is crucial for us all in this debate. Our argument is not with the people of Israel with whom the UK has unshakable bonds. >> Our argument is with the conduct of its government. >> And I also want to say emphatically to people in Britain and indeed across the world, holding British Jews responsible for the actions of the Israeli government is anti-semitism. plain and simple. What we seek today is to salvage the only cause for peace and security for Israelis and Palestinians, the two-state solution. Let me start with the situation in the West Bank. Mr. Speaker, Madame Deputy Speaker, at the time of the Oslo Peace Accords in 1993, around 270,000 settlers lived in the occupied Palestinian territories. Today, it is some 770,000. More settlements have been approved under the four years of this Israeli government than in the previous 20 years. Let us spell out what this has meant for Palestinian communities. Houses bulldozed, roads and public infrastructure destroyed, families displaced from their homes, community by community, family by family, person by person. to go through a few of the things that he that he said and just start by saying, you know, this this statement itself is nauseating and outrageously hypocritical and fundamentally cynical and and we should read it and and listen to it with that that thing in our in our mind that this is about rehabilitating its image. So he says he sounds very very concerned. He talks about what's happening um uh in Palestine as a stain well he doesn't say Palestine probably >> Gaza Gaza but as a stain on the world's conscience and again immediately and in the whole of the statement it's all about deflecting any accountability or any role that Britain has played in the genocide that is taking place. So when he says that this is a stain on the world's conscience, we can obviously say whose conscience, not our conscience, >> the conscience of the ruling class and specifically the British ruling class that has continued to justify and defend this genocide. We should say he never uses the word genocide and I [clears throat] don't think he will ever use the word genocide to describe what's taking place. But millions of people, including in Britain, have been opposed to what is going on. In fact, many of these people have been locked up by this Labor government precisely for trying to to stop it. Um, he also does talk about war crimes, but he just says war crimes appear >> appear to have happened >> to have happened, appear to be committed, which is just again, it's like being gaslit on an astronomical scale. We've all seen the videos and the pictures. Not just that, we can read and listen to what the Israeli government have been saying. Yes. and have said from the very very beginning. So again this is just uh this was very annoying um to hear. But then he also talks about being against um the occupation and the occupation of Palestine is unlawful and he talks about how it's very important that Britain remains in good standing with international law. >> It it's remarkable that someone could refer to international law in 2026. >> Yes. How many rafts of international law and resolutions have been written? Yes. >> Against the oppression of the Palestinian people. >> Yes. >> I mean this this is the British government essentially saying we want to be in hawk with the international criminal uh court or the the ICJ I think >> that in 2024 so two years ago gave their advisory opinion that settlements are illegal. >> Yes. Yes. It's meaningless. And it and it just we've spoken about this many [snorts] times um before on the podcast, but it's worth bringing up again. Um the this reference to international law or even the UN as though it's a benchmark, as though it's as though it's progressive or even neutral. Yes. As an arbiter on the Palestinian question, flies in the face of what international law has ever done. And we shouldn't forget that the UN and lots of people even on the left outrageously hark back to the UN, hawk back to the 1967 borders as though that is a is a flash point that we should be striving towards as a solution to what's happening is absolutely outrageous. the UN and international law which first legitimized the 1967 borders essentially legitimizing a a kind of a reorientation or a redrawing of taking away from what the whole of historic Palestine used to be >> and and has just continued to cover up in in many various different ways the the the conscious expansion of of of the Zionist state. That includes the settlers, that includes them occupying different Palestinian towns. And and the UN and international law has never done anything against this. >> And it's it's it's so when when people well, it's one thing for for Ed Miban to do it, but I also just wanted to make this point that I see people on the left even sometimes talking about 1967 borders, talking about the UN, talking about how well the UN does give people the right to defend themselves as well. Why are we referencing? >> Yes. >> Imperialists actually. >> Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, the United Nations drew up the partition plan in 1947 that then was the blueprint for for the Nakba. >> It is ridiculous that this stuff is being referenced still at this point. And when you look at what's actually changed in policy, >> um what has Milliband had to say? He says we are going to ban Israeli goods coming from uh Israeli settlements and this will happen in the next 6 to9 months. >> Yeah. >> And there will be a ban of uh land sales in the occupied West Bank. >> Mhm. >> From happening as they you it usually happens like every year here in London. And so this is really not that hard line whatsoever. And for people that are a little bit shocked or almost like um dazed by the fact that Britain could come out with something like this, it's it's worth looking at, for instance, Britain's relationship with Israel historically speaking, >> because in fact, there have been far harder lines taken for purposes of political expediency. Margaret Thatcher of all people took a harder line on Israel than what Miband is after three years of genocide today. And she was hardly an anti-imperialist. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, if you actually go back to to her first term in office, you had a situation where the Israeli uh government was extremely right-wing uh Menishin Beggan was in power. That's actually the first liquid uh politician to become uh I think the prime minister or the president. And and that's Netanyahu's party we should say. They uh they were chasing the PLO around the Middle East and bombing left, right, and center. And in fact, nine European powers got together in Venice and signed a de declaration which said that they were concerned about Israeli settlements and there was some talk about maybe a boycott at some particular point and so on. Anyway, two years later in 1982, you had the massacres of the Sabber and Chhatillaa camps in Lebanon and the light uh the skies were lit up by the Israeli army for the the fange to go in and just massacre people. That was enough 3,000 4,000 deaths was enough for Britain to actually cut all arms trade with Israel. And that only resumed in 1994 after the the first inif after the Oslo Accords were signed. And so it does show that there is a degree of flexibility to British foreign policy, right? >> And in fact, they were massive. That Thatcher was not moved by any, you know, any love in her heart for oppressed people. It was it was actually um because of public opinion on the question of Palestine, the mass outpouring of sympathy to the Palestinian people that were being refused as state and were being chased all around the Middle East, but also because she wanted to pivot to the Arab world as well and begin start making massive deals with Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States and so on. >> Yes. >> So just it just puts things into perspective, right? because you would have the impression from the British press that this is the biggest rift between Britain and Israel. That is not even true. >> Yes. >> Um and to say that after three years of genocide, this is all they have to say. >> Yes. >> It's it it would be a joke if it wasn't so serious. >> Yes. I think the only way to describe Ed Miban's speech and also Burnham's statements is a is a carefully orchestrated piece of theater. Yes, >> it is theater and they did it knowing that the Israelis would respond in a dramatic way. They knew that this would rile up Zionists and they were ready for that whether in the US or whether in Britain and to a certain degree they wanted that because then they can show and they can prove I mean you know I saw Ed Milliband on Sky this morning with Sophie Ridge and she says do you stand by calling them settler terrorists and he said yes I do yes I do and he wants that because they want to appear as though they are taking a firm position >> just the actions it's also the language you used in the House of Commons you talked about Jewish Jewish settler terrorists who are guilty of ethnic cleansing. Do you stand by that? >> Yes, I do. And I weighed up very carefully my words and I began by quoting the former prime minister of Israel, Ahud, who had said that. And we've looked very carefully about what's happening on the ground. And just to be clear about this, we've got settler terrorists who are driving Palestinians from their homes. thousands of Palestinians in the last few years driven from evicted from their homes essentially and I'm afraid the Israeli government has at best turned a blind eye to that and some ministers have said had ma have made remarks encouraging the forc displacement of Palestinians and we have a choice as a country which is do we stand by in the face of that terrible injustice or do we call it out and and we chose to call it out and I I that most British people will think it's right to do that. >> But as you say, it's absolutely it's absolutely meaningless because we know that before they did this, they first called the US. They called Trump, they informed Trump and the US in advance that they were going to make this announcement. And we also know, and it has been reported that they spent a lot of time reassuring the US that this is largely symbolic. And not only is it largely symbolic, but they maintain that this won't affect their wider relationship with Israel on questions of trade and also questions of intelligence. Yes, >> this is all theater and it is cynicism. And the worst thing is that there are people out there on the left who should know better who are saying uh oh yes this is brilliant and and this is a good thing and and even that this is a victory and and in so doing they're playing into the game that this Labor government is now trying to trying to play >> real tonal shift you know this this discussion about Andy Bernham will be Karma 2.0 Oh, it'll be K with a northern accent. I think we've seen that I think his approach is going to be clearly more more sophisticated than that. And although at the time I remember being disappointed that Ed Meliban didn't get to become chancellor, we can maybe see the way in which we're getting some dividends in a in a really really important area as as foreign secretary. This this concept that that that there's a moral crime that has happened to me that is that is something very different. I know it's rhetoric. I know it's it's a tonal shift, but there is something very different about the packaging and the understanding broadly speaking of of what's happening here, which does feel really different from what was happening under under K star. So there's lots of shortcomings, but at the same time, I think there's something here, particularly when we're thinking about this from a campaigning lens about understanding the wins and taking in the the small wins along the way. >> Yeah, 100%. And let's break it down. In Edmiban's statement, there is such a sharp distinction between the Israeli state and the settlers in the West Bank. >> Yes, >> that is completely false. >> In fact, the settlers are are fighting the war that the Israeli state has promote been promoting for decades >> back since uh ' 67 when you you started to see the West Bank populated by uh outpost that then would turn to settlement. >> What gives these people the confidence to go out there and do that? they feel backed by the state >> because they are they they deal with complete impunity and they've been carrying out pograms for decades now. >> Um and in fact to even try make a distinction between let's say the Israeli economy and the economy of the West Bank the occupied territories >> is completely false. The Israelis do not publish any separate statistics on their settlement uh uh settlement economic activity. And when you think about it, the first thing you think of is the made in Israel products, right? From uh from the Jordan Valley, the the orange groves and also like the um the olives and the dates and so on and so forth. But it goes so much further than that at this point. In fact, the two economies are completely inseparable. Uh the the shekele for instance is is the common currency and the Palestinians there are treated as the captive market. And for the last uh 30 years since Oslo really we have seen massive industrial zones open up in the West Bank the occupied West Bank >> uh massive quaries as well uh to to make the settlement cities and also to bring into so-called Israel proper >> and there are many US subsidiaries and multinational corporations that operate within the West Bank and I saw a report which was uh talking about how many international banks underwrite underwrite many of these companies. It's from the UN Trade and Development Wing and it's called, you can look it up, the cumulative economic cost [snorts] uh of occupation for the Palestinian people. It was published in February this year. And in this it says that between 2000 and 2024, the settlements had generated $1 trillion $1 trillion for Israel when you adjust it for inflation. M >> now you don't see Ed Milliband calling for this money to be returned to the Palestinians or for >> for any offering of this of of this kind for the Palestinian state that they keep on talking about. >> Yes. This fictional state that they have done that they have you know been destroying um for the last however many however many years. Um but also you know in the rest of the spe we should say that what we've been talking about is the second half of the speech where he mentions all these supposed you know sanctions and attacks against Israel but the whole first half of the speech is a massive caveat um in which he uh he makes this point. One of the statements that I haven't seen spread in the media is he says, you know, also Iran continues to threaten Israel and Jews across the world. So he was making this point as he has to say, well, Israel is is threatened by all of these people all around it and Israel has the right to defend itself from terrorists and it and the fact that it continues to threaten Israel and Jews across the world, which is what Western imperialism has been saying for ages. This is straight out of the old script. Um, and this has been the pretext for the recent war. Yes. Which at the same time they're supposedly trying to disentangle themselves from. I mean, it just shows this kind of web of contradictions that that Western imperialism and specifically the individual, you know, like we're talking about Britain, but also the other European powers find themselves in. But they can't help themselves. They have to get those lines in there. And it's outrageous. >> Yeah. I mean, the most sickening, hypocritical thing that I uh I saw him say, though there were many, >> was this quote, "Holding British Jews responsible for the actions of the Israeli government is anti-semitism, plain and simple." >> And it made me think, why have we been told for the last three years that any vocal opposition to Israel is an attack or an affront on the lives of Jewish people? >> Yes. every single time >> intimidating [clears throat] Jewish people by having a free Palestine protest >> 100% 100% or even carrying the flag in some cases and every time there has been an anti-semitic attack the whole establishment has come out and said do not protest for Palestine this weekend >> yes >> I would say >> yeah I went on the times radio on this exact question where they were saying shouldn't you just not have your protest in the wake of this attack that has just taken place >> yeah and let's let's be real there is a layer of people in British society that do blame uh Jewish people for the actions of Israel and they take at face value Israel's claims to represent uh Jewishness. But where the hell would they have got this idea from? From the political establishment that has weaponized this massively in order to repress the Palestine movement. And they have continually insisted that the so-called Jewish community is represented and indistinguishable from Israel. So this deeply anti-semitic line has been concocted in newsrooms, in parliament, in the press. >> Yes. >> And now you're saying, "Well, actually, you shouldn't be conflating the two. That's what you have done to attack the Palestine movement for three years. >> Yes. And also, you know, in the first half of his speech, he spoke a lot about him Ed Milliban being Jewish himself. >> Madame Deputy Speaker, my personal story and that of thousands of British Jews is one of the many reasons why I say to anyone here or around the world who questions Israel's right to exist as a homeland for the Jewish people, >> you are wrong. and we will call you out whenever you engage in this attempt at the erasia of Israel >> being a British Jew and how he and he even says I'm unwavering in my support for Israel and its right to exist. So they have used this they have weaponized this they have weaponized identity politics throughout this entire movement. Um and so and so yeah it's it's cynical and it's hypocritical and we should expose it for for what it is. Um >> and there was no mention of Gaza. And there was no mention of Gaza. This is the thing is they >> they they really honed in on this thing about the settler terrorists fine and using this term and that's one thing. Um but anytime they do talk about Gaza again it's as though it's this um this random victim of tragedy um which they say and we need humanitarian aid and all but again not taking up the fact that this has been said from [snorts] the 8th of October from the 9th of October um in terms of what the Israeli state and what Israeli ministers are saying but also what they are still saying today. In fact, in the last week, you've had um Israeli ministers talking about depopulating the whole population in Gaza, trying to force two million people out of Gaza, although they use this term voluntary immigration. Um but that they've made it crystal clear what they want. And then Ed Milliban says in a speech like, "Oh yes, we do want to let a bit of humanitarian aid in." It's completely detached from what these people are trying to do right now. >> Yeah. It doesn't cut it. I mean, Israel Katz, the defense minister, has been lobbying the US in the last uh couple of weeks >> to finish the job. >> What does that mean? It means, and I quote, that there's, he says, there's no real solution for Gaza in the end without this migration. He says that Israel is prepared to get them out by sea, by air, by every way possible. And he says that all of the countries where this remigration process has been discussed basically need the Americans to give the green light. And he was very optimistic. He said Trump has frozen this. He hasn't completely taken it off the shelf. And it comes in light actually of something that Jared Kushner said quite recently where he was talking about the board of peace, this kind of defunct thing uh that was supposed to replace the United Nations because the Americans were not very happy with how the UN was dealing with the Gaza crisis. And he said uh in the last couple of weeks, Gaza has not worked for a very very long time. H I wonder why that is. It has been besieged for almost 20 years now. He continues, "It was basically built by NOS's and terrorists. Now we have a plan to go forward." And obviously in the last year since the ceasefire, quote unquote, was signed, there has been all of this talk of a technocratic government being set up of uh demilitarizing the Gaza Strip and it being run by technocrats that have no relation to Palestine whatsoever in order for what to happen. I mean, it was this time last year, we were talking about uh the Riviera of the Middle East on the podcast, >> and really this means more displacement, more ethnic cleansing, the so-called thing that uh Ed Milliband has all of a sudden woken up to, it just means more chaos, violence, and misery. >> Yes. And after everything you've just said and described, it brings us, I think, to the central point of what Ed Milliband was trying to say and what loads of governments, including, you know, the ones we listed off, these 11 other countries that have signed up to this statement and these sanctions as well, which is this utter fantasy and we should say insult that is the two-state solution. And Ed Milliban says the reason that they are taking these um these measures is because they want to secure and dignify the two-state solution. Um which is it's not only is it is a fantasy, but it's it's an insult at this stage. And we've said it before and we can say it again, but what state where is this state for the Palestinians supposed to be when they have destroyed Gaza, reduced it to rubble? And not only that, but in the West Bank, they're in continuing to enclave upon it. Yeah. >> It means nothing. And look, this has been the position of the Labour Party formally for for a long time, including of Ed Miban. You can find old older comments of him talking about the the two-state um the two-state solution. But all of this, it has always been a smoke screen, right? you've had this gentleman's agreement between the West and Israel where, you know, formally speaking, Israel would kind of pay a bit of lip service to the idea of of a two-state solution. They never obviously really believed in it or would have allowed it or did anything to facilitate it, but it would give the West this convenient way to just ignore what Israel was doing even though they knew all along. Um, and it was a nonsense then, but it's even more of a nonsense now. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it does not matter what prosperous Palestinian state for tomorrow you have in mind when all of your actions today have meant that there is very little that can be called Palestine. >> And this is the the Europeans getting a bit jittery about the E1 settlement, the the so-called doomsday settlement, which is there to cut the West Bank in half. In fact, [clears throat] I think it was last month that um Zionist organizations were tendering some of the land that could be bought here in London. Right. That was I think that was a month ago, two months ago. >> And so it's it's really ridiculous to pay lip service to this thing when, as you say, everything's being reduced to rebel. And in fact, I would say it's interesting that in Israel itself, there is more criticism of the settlers than what we hear in the West. Something that has colored the Israeli elections is this case of Kusra, which is uh which is a town very close to Nablas. And there it's followed um it's followed a family the the press coverage that has had the usual usual settler treatment where settlers come with a tent, they cut off your water, they cut off your electricity, and then they threaten you and your family with their life until you leave and then they take over. This is a you know this is tried and tested methods of the Zionist. In fact the reason why this has got so much attention is because of almost the simplicity of the case. There is nothing being said about this this family in Kustra about uh you know them them being terrorists or anything like this. And in fact the house that they tried to do this to belongs to an American citizen >> and it was his brother that was living in there. And so the army came up to the settlers and basically told them to go away and he flew in and it actually drew the eye of Mike Huckerby, the guy who says that Britain is due hating now because of its policy. He described these settlers as terrorists. He was the first to use that language before Britain felt emboldened enough to actually talk in that kind of way. >> But it really does show what is really a a a lived reality for many many Palestinians. This isn't isolated at all. In fact, the interview where I read this in uh 572 magazine gave the example of a guy called Mahmud uh Tobasi and this uh this happened last month in Jalud uh where settlers basically came they tried to intimidate him. They said to him and gave him an ultimatum. You have 1 hour to leave safely or you will die in this house. And so now he his family have evacuated. Settlers now occupy his home. This is the same story again and again and again. And this is what's led, we should say, over the last year to 40,000 Palestinians being displaced. >> Yes. And you know, why on earth is the Labor government talking about, you know, part of the reason they're talking about this idea of the two-state solution? As we were saying at the start, is this hope that maybe in the elections a more liberal, a softer type of of party or or individuals is going to come into power, which is not guaranteed in any way, shape, or form. Mhm. >> And in fact, you were quoting this um Israeli minister Katz earlier. Well, he has announced that he's instructed the army to draw up a plan to transfer the responsibility for civilian law enforcement in the West Bank to the Israeli police. Yes. Right. So, they're already moving ahead with this plan and they know exactly what this means. Ben Gave has said this is a fantastic step if they're able to do this to applying Israeli sovereignty and annexing the West Bank and and and still we have this ludicrous um you know it's like living in parallel worlds. Well, it's not living in parallel worlds. I'm talking as though the the British Labor government are just stupid. And it's not just that they're stupid. It's just cynicism and just trying to distract enough in the short term so that people will stop paying attention to what is happening in Gaza or the West Bank or Palestine. That is what they're they're they're hoping will will take place. Um but it's it's not the case and we will continue to expose the fact that a two-state solution is not a solution at all. Everything that the government has done over the last couple of years shows the shows the truth of that. And unfortunately the reality is a state for the Palestinian people is further away today than it ever has been. >> Yes. >> And and we have to be honest about that. >> Yes. I mean when you whenever you look back on the on the history of Zionism, they have always used the cover of war for greater land grabs. And it's quite clear that through this genocide, they are trying to finish the job. >> Yes, >> the talk of a greater Israel is common place in Israel uh at at this moment in time. >> And so, we need to get real because it it does boil my blood to see so many people on the left sewing illusions in a figure like Andy Burnham. And you see it, you saw it actually during his uh his uh his attempt to get into parliament before he became the leader when he would say things like, "We're going to leave behind the 40 years of neoliberalism and we we're going to uh we're going to begin to uplift all of these communities that have been left behind." The Labour leaders were just like, "Yeah, yeah, of course we are. Of course we are." Yes, I mean his first speech in parliament is him talking about fiscal responsibility and the fact that we can't afford uh yeah we we can't afford to really relieve the cost of living apart from two pound buses and it feels like that same thing is being repeated again on this question of Palestine where all of a sudden we're supposed to praise Andy Bernham to the high heavens for what? >> Yes. >> For what? sanctions on goods that could easily be uh recircuited or rebranded in 6 to n months time. Yes, that's that's it. And it really gets to the heart, I think, of the difference of us to other groups, other people on the left when it comes to how we view politicians, right? Because I think there is a very naive belief uh in the Palestine movement that these people have consciences. >> Yes. that there is a moral side to them that you can appeal. >> And actually I think at this point we should be saying Burnham just like Milliband the these people are chameleons. They are total careerists that do not give a The idea that >> Ed Milliband heard in some kind of focus group all of a sudden about the horrors as if he doesn't have a mobile phone too. as if he hasn't heard about all of the aid workers that have been killed for the last 3 years or the death toll reaching almost officially 100,000. Come on. >> Yes. The ruling class and these politicians, they don't have consciences. They have interests. That is all that this speech and this fantasy has been about. It has been about securing the Labor government's political interest of staying in power of making sure that at the next general election they are not punished as all of the polls showed that they will be. That's what this whole thing has been about. And we can see that also by looking at the actual makeup of Andy Bernham's cabinet and who is in it. People like Wes Streeting, people who have been a part of Labour Friends of Israel for all of this time. And not just that, if you look at um John Healey, former defense minister, >> all of these people, by the way, have been talking about militarism for a long time and the need to rank up. There's no statements saying, "Oh, that's a terrible thing and that's unconscionable." No, from the point of view of militarism, they've said and they've been quite explicit about the need to to to increase that. And so when you look at the actions, the material reality of what these people do and what they represent, then it's very very clear, show us where this Labor government is being anti-imperialist or anti-war in any way, shape, or form. And I think that there's some on the left who are who are desperate for for proof that they that they are because it means you don't have to do much. It means you don't have to struggle against the Labor government. Um, but this is uh >> this is wrong. Yes. Yeah. I mean, all of these people's condemnation, it reads like a friend advising another friend that has kind of gone ary, right? >> It's almost like they're trying to save Israel from itself, right? You've gone a little bit too far this time and now's the time to rein it in. the fact that all of them uh affirm yeah that we believe that the Israeli state is the safe haven for for Jewish people and >> we are Zionists but this form of Zionism we're not too sure of >> this is the logical result of where Zionism was always intended to go >> yes >> and they can't uh rack their brains around this and in fact when you think about yeah not only the cabinet but all of the liberals that are gassing Burnham up they defend the old world order that is crumbling And that world order was built upon the oppression and exploitation and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. They are not friends of the Palestinian people. >> And I would say for a lot of young people, to bring it back to what we were talking about the the start, all of these things are kind of being churned up in their minds, right? >> This this hatred towards uh the Labor government. I think there's a lot of young people to be honest that don't h are not even really switched on >> no >> to what performance in parliament is taking place that are not thinking in this groove whatsoever >> and you know that thing online that you know the people it's like I ain't reading all that free Palestine [laughter] >> I think that sums up actually the approach that people are going to have like oh you've made a statement okay fine what is actually happening in Palestine that is what is driving people >> absolutely Absolutely. I mean, talk is cheap, right? >> Yeah. >> But something that did have uh a massive impact on the minds of people that were coming across >> is the Italian Italian general strike. >> Yes. >> And [clears throat] what you saw there was the youth crashing forward to the surface. Yes. >> And a strike that shut down what? The docks, shut down the railway lines, shut down Italy for a day and terrified the Maloney government. Yes. We have been saying since the beginning of this movement that yes demonstrations on the streets can be good in that in so far as they show uh they can be a statement of strength. They can show where the general public is but having limited the protest movements and the action for Palestine to street demonstrations themselves. >> The leadership has run the movement really into the ground. >> Yes. And what we were told was impossible for a very long time certainly looks possible today when there is so much strike action breaking out. There is so much hatred and resentment towards the government. And what we've been saying all along is the working class needs to it needs to enter the scene as an independent force with class methods with workers boycott with shutting down the docks with taking militant action. That's the only way to grind the war machine to a hole and really for these crimes not to be committed in our names. Yes. And I think that if what the self-appointed leadership of the Palestine movement tries to present um in the next period which is that you know this is a victory aka after three years of genocide but three years of you know millions of people showing that they are not only opposed to what you know Britain's role in the genocide opposed to what Israel is doing but also that there's this whole layer of people who want to do something about it are willing to take militant direct a direct action um to to you know to stop uh weapons uh being made or being transported. there's this whole layer of people who are desperate and then if you try and present this just kind of theatrical change in rhetoric as though it's a victory that is an insult to the whole of the Palestine movement as it has existed in Britain and in other places and again completely misses the the the mood and and the strategy and the politics that we actually need. We have said from the very beginning that militant direct workingclass mass action does have the the power to actually play a role in stopping the genocide. Yes. Um and and and that is what we have always advocated for. And whenever we have raised this idea with people, the response has been has been overwhelmingly positive. >> And and now is the moment not to sit back and think great after three years of A to B protests we've been able to achieve something. It's the opposite. It should be that actually in all of this time we could have done far more. Um and and and we're not going to stop raising that idea now either. >> Yeah. We should be pushing onto the offensive. >> Yes. >> And so that brings us to our we're a party, not just a podcast segment >> because on October 10th there will be the demonstration in central London against three years of genocide and we are planning a massive mobilization from across the country. We are going to be booking coaches from different campuses and cities across the country. Uh the list that I have in front of me is from Cambridge, Brighton, Norwich, Bristol, Cardiff, Manchester, Birmingham, Leaded, Sheffield, Oxford, and Reading. >> I'm sorry if I missed you out, [laughter] >> but you can still come. >> But you can still come and you absolutely should come down to this demonstration. Yes. >> Because our message will be exactly that. >> Yes. >> It will be that >> we need to bring down all of the wararmongers in Westminster. We need to bring down British imperialism. And this question of militarism is not going away. It's a live issue for the youth. And really what is needed more than ever is revolutionary politics and uh a mass force. And that's what we're trying to build. That's what our our campaign our recruitment campaign will be based upon. >> Yes. And we need as many people as possible to say and to show that despite everything that Ed Milliban and Andy Burnham are doing right now, we can see through the the the rhetoric. We can see through the performance. We know that it's theater. Um, and in any case, there's a whole generation that is striving to struggle against what, as I said at the beginning or halfway through the episode, what Palestine came to represent and still represents, which is this rotten ruling class represents war, represents death, represents destruction, and and that is completely at odds with the interests of young people and workers in Britain as well. Um and and yeah, so if you agree with that, if you know that what Ed Milliband is saying is then you've got to come to this demonstration and be a part of building a movement that makes that a reality. We're not just interested in propaganda war. And this is a mistake that the Palestine movement has made as though we're just interested in battling for public opinion. You know, that finally we've changed the way that Palestine is viewed. No, not just rhetoric. real material change is what we stand for. Um, and that will only come by by targeting the system as well. >> Absolutely. I think we can leave it there. So, please do share this podcast with any friend that needs to hear it and uh make your way down to London, please, to protest with us on October 10th. My name is Khaled Malachi. >> My name is Fiona Ali >> and this has been a world on fire.