Drupal Association Community Election 2026: Community forum with the candidates

and jump in. Um, perfect. Okay. Welcome to all of our candidates, all of our community members, and anyone listening to this recording. This is our um community election uh community forum uh for the 2026 uh director at large position of the Drupal Association board um where we will be asking questions of our candidates, getting their responses and as time allows asking letting our audience ask some questions too. Um so we're really looking forward to this so that you can get to know our candidates better. We'll also be doing a sort of 24-hour asynchronous meeting in the Drupal Association Slack channel uh tomorrow um that anyone in different time zones can join in to ask questions as well. Um so we really encourage you to participate in that to participate in the electoral process um and to kind of help choose your next representative on the board. Um so without further ado and uh bearing in mind that we don't have the most amount of time in the world um let's just dive into some of the questions that we have prepared and um we'll go from there. So going to start off asking everyone to give a sort of 30 second one minute I know it'll stretch but I I suggest the shorter number to uh to uh try and keep it contained. uh introduction to yourself. So, your history in Drupal and uh well, who you are, your history in Drupal and why you felt it was important to run for the board. Um, and I'm going to actually ask uh how about Darren? Why don't you go first? >> Okay. Well, I started out in Drupal as the non-technical user and it's the ability to start Drupal without that technical knowledge was what started me in there. Then I became a contributor and got a job through it. Um, I want to so the non-technical user, the new you get helping new users get started has always been the the thing that I'm most concerned about with Drupal as well as helping uh uh people get jobs uh and start businesses through through Drupal. And I feel like I've done as much as I can from outside the Drupal association to facilitate that like through my work with the Drupal Forge especially. So now I want to try to to um promote that from within the Drupal Association. >> Awesome. That sounds good. Um thanks Darren. Let's go. Uh I'm going to call on Scott next. >> Perfect. Yeah. Um I am Scott Falconer so based in Boisee Idaho. Some Drupal history. I've been working with Drupal for about 20 years. I more or less learned to program in Drupal. So I don't know that I could function outside of it. Um so Drupal has a very special place to me. So uh about 10 years after getting involved with Drupal, I joined Aquia for a long time. I led the professional services group where I was fortunate to work with many of the people in the community. And then more recently, I lead up Drupal as an open-source product with an Aquia. As part of that, I was able to get to work on the Drupal AI initiative. Um the work of the Drupal AI Initiative is really what led me to want to um explore opportunities within the Drupal Association because it's just a phenomenal experience of many different companies and contributors and people coming together and it's it's really, you know, it's it's one of the highlights in the 20 years in Drupal. Like lots of great memories, but this is just really fun and shows the importance of both the association, what they can facilitate and how the community can come together. So very excited to be here. >> Awesome. Um Jamie, why don't we have you? >> Well, I'm Jamie. Uh I run a digital agency um co-founded uh called Freely Give where we've uh kind of aimed to innovate in Drupal a lot uh over the years uh particularly focusing on native Drupal CRM uh business applications automation. But I went a bit wild uh with AI. Got got a bit obsessed. Uh so um went all in and uh very early on felt like we needed Drupal AI to be bigger than one company. So the AI module was something I worked on with a bunch of people uh which from the beginning was more than just one and then the initiative came out of that where we felt like agencies need to to get together. So I've helped found that um and I've always really deeply cared about Drupal community. Uh uh I'm very passionate about open source and I believe strongly in open source and AI and I think that the Drupal Association and Drupal.org are key to why Drupal is important. And so I've been putting a lot of effort into what I can do anyway to help the Drupal Association. Um I'm particularly interested in helping the DA find uh sustainable funding models in this new world. Uh explore the strategic uh aims especially given how much the world's changing a lot. Uh, and so I want to help in those areas as well. Uh, I'm not a programmer. Um, but yeah, I just, uh, started getting into Drupal by reading all the Drupal 7 critical issues for three hours a day and every new comment when I was at university. And then I just read every module in the top 100 list. So that that's where I I can talk a bit like developers. I'm sort of a bit like an LLM where I'm trained on the Drupal issue cues and how to speak, but I don't necessarily understand it. [laughter] >> Perfectly good. Thanks. Thanks, Jamie. Um, let me go to Matthew. >> Hey everybody, I'm Matthew Saunders. Um, I've been in service to this community for forever. Um, joined the Drupal community in 20 2006, had my first Drupal Con in 2007 in Barcelona. Um, and since then I've founded Drupal Colorado, organized 25 camps, summits. I was even uh part of the organizing organizing committee for Drupalcon in Denver in 2012. Um I helped um I helped establish the event organizers working group served on the Drupal Association board over a decade ago where I was the uh the chair of the governance committee which is the reason we have these elections. It's the reason we have two two um community members and those two community members have two-year terms. Um and I currently serve on the community working group event organizers working group. I chair Drupal Colorado and I help organize Drupal Camp Colorado and Drupal GovCon. I'm also the lead for podcasts and webinars uh for the Drupal strategic AI initiative. Um the reason that I'm running is because I think that Drupal's entering a period of significant technological change with all this AI stuff. Um and I've got a significant pulse on all of that. Uh being part of the initiative, the strategic initiative through my work. um uh and uh really really being devoted to that uh that uh that initiative. But I think at the same time these some some association decisions have left parts of the community uh wondering whether our state values are being reflected in practice. And so I believe that there's been there's been a there's been a rupture in trust. Um so I think that rebuilding trust means involving [clears throat] affected communities earlier, understanding how decisions um are going to be experienced by those uh members of our community and communicating the reasoning behind difficult choices clearly and promptly. Um so what I bring is govern governance experience from multiple nonprofits in and outside the Drupal community and within the Drupal community a long history of just showing up over and over and over again. So, what I want to do is help the association listen carefully, make sound decisions, and earn the trust that it needs to be successful. >> Thank you, Matthew. And I'm actually going to continue with you, go back in sort of reverse order on on our next question here, and then I'll mix it up to a new random order after that. But, um, so going right into our next question. So, Matthew, uh, a nonprofit board has two primary governing duties. uh as some of you may know and some of you may not because the community role is something that's meant for really anyone to be able to participate in. But those duties are a duty of loyalty to the organization and a duty of care to making the best decisions you can. So I'd just like to ask you very simply what those two duties mean to you um and how you think you'll represent them uh if you're working with board. >> Sure. I' I'd add that nonprofit directors also traditionally have a third fiduciary duty and that's the duty of obedience. Um so anyway, let me let me start with the duty of loyalty. That means that when I sit on the board, my obligation is to the Drupal Association. I can't use the position of the position to advance my own interests. Um I can't use it for my employer's interests. I cannot use it for a personal agenda. And um I have to disclose conflicts uh of interest and act in the organization's best interest. Um the duty of care means that uh when you're doing the work, you have to make responsible decisions. Uh and that means that you have to sit down and read the material. You need to understand the finances. You need to understand the risks. Um you need to be able to ask difficult questions, not just agree um blindly. Um, and when you don't know the answers, you need to seek out expertise that can help you understand what it is that you're looking at. Um, and you need to sit and consider long-term consequences of the decision that the uh that the board uh the board is making as a whole. Finally, when you're talking about the duty of obedience, that means that you need to uh remain faithful to the association's mission. Um their governing documents, legal responsibilities, um and that the resources and decisions that you're helping helping the uh the association engage in using have to support the purpose of the organization um that that it uh that it exists to fulfill. Um, and I want to really be clear that none of these duties requires silent agreement. Like, one of the things that often happens with new board members is they don't speak up because they're they're learning or they're nervous. Um, don't do that. If you get on the board, don't do that. Um, listen um and and question and challenge because uh because that that's super super super important. Loyalty may require you raising uncomfortable concerns. uh and care requires speaking up when evidence doesn't support a proposed direction. Um but at the end once a board makes a decision however however that decision is however your your personal opinion we all share responsibility for that decision as a governing body and we don't publicly uh um disagree with that uh that particular decision. We work as a single unit. >> Well, thank you Matthew. Um Jamie going back through in reverse order now let me let me throw that to you. What are your sort of feelings and and your way of living the values of these duty of loyalty duty of care and if you want to to speak to the duty of obedience that Matthew has has thrown in the thrown in the ring. >> Yeah. So I think as um yeah as Matthew mentioned uh yeah duty of uh loyalty is is putting uh the Drupal association and its goals above like my own personal goals, organizational goals, factional goals etc. Um I think one of the reasons why um in terms of what those mean to me uh on like almost an emotional level is I kind of feel like I've been part of team Drupal for a very long time and almost everything that we've been doing part of like you know founding he gave us come out of this initial love of Drupal that happened quite early on um in my uh you know when I was in in uh at university. So um I think I've also tried to create a structure in freely give to try and make it so that we are an organization that can support a community more than sort of take from it. So we're trying to grow tall not wide trying to support where we can on AI innovation but try to work with at least agencies and and not necessarily step on toes of everyone else but like work alongside everyone. So I try to build a structure where I am personally able to do what I can to support uh the open source goals of Drupal. um uh rather than having to like be beholden to like my own personal commercial goals. Um and I think whatever your background, you can do the duty of loyalty anyway that it's a choice. Uh it's but um I would say there's a part of me that have built my my life around um doing that. And I think duty of care to me is about being properly informed but also asking like difficult questions. So pushing back on the Drupal association where we feel necessary um uh where we believe there are risks that are either worth taking or not worth taking for the long-term health. Um so I think there's an element there where I see it as one of the things it means to me is to is to really critically u you know analyze what it is we're doing and um and and and treat the Drupal assoc association as a whole very carefully. Um, and I think it's going to be very important with, as Matthew said, there's with AI sort of introduced a lot of changes to like the regulatory environment, the legal environment, the privacy stuff. Um, >> and so I think having us uh uh put effort into that is very important. So that's that's the other thing. >> Thanks, Jamie. Appreciate that very much. Uh, let's see. Going back through. I believe Scott, we're back to you and you are muted. Sorry. >> [laughter] >> probably better that way. No. Um, to me it's a huge amount of responsibility. Um, you know, if you if you look at a position on a board like this, you're not there to represent yourself, your company. You are there to represent the people that uh benefit or impacted by this, right? And that that can be very interesting because you need to represent a lot of viewpoints that are not your own, right? That's one of the most important things. And I love hearing and talking to people with opinions that are contrary to mine. Right? We are many of us are very fortunate to be able be able to made a career to have friends to have a lot of stuff that's a result of Drupal. Because if you think about what Drupal is, it's not just the software. It is the people and the decisions and the collaboration behind it that is absolutely critical. And to that point, I want to echo like what the others have said like we're in a time of massive change. So the decisions that we make now are going to have immense impact on both people in the Drupal community and the world as a whole, right? There is a obligation both to our own community and to what this world becomes, right? And we're very fortunate to have that platform and have this tool that makes us stakeholders in that conversation to make the world what we want to be. So again, it's a huge amount of responsibility and part of that responsibility is representing diverse viewpoints, many of which would be contrary to what I would come to as my own decision because of that need to make sure that the community and Drupal as a whole is moving forward. >> Awesome. Thank you very much, Scott. Appreciate that. Um Darren, I'll go to you. So what is your feeling of understanding about the the duties of loyalty and care to uh the Drupal Association and what that means to you? Well, the it's been well expressed. Uh I I concur with the what has been said. I I'll just summarize by saying loyalty means owning the decisions even if I disagree with them. Uh and uh uh care means that I have to pay attention to issues that might not be the specific issues that um led me to join the board. But I'm not just there as an advocate for my own issues. >> Awesome. Thanks, Darren. And I think that's that's a good thing to add. Okay. So, I'm going to mix up the um direction a little bit. So, this time I think uh Scott will go to you first. Um and we'll change up the the order for this next question. [snorts] And so, >> I would just before you before you go on, I would just uh add that Jurgen has joined us. Um, and I don't know whether you can see that. >> Uh, yes. Um, >> so just want to make sure that he gets the chance to speak. That's all. >> Sorry. Is this is this my my um brain fade? But isn't it uh I >> did >> didn't run this year? >> No. Okay, never mind. >> Yep. >> No, I'm not running. I thought this is the open forum, right? >> This is Yes. Yes, >> it is. Yeah. >> Hey everybody, I'm just listening in. >> Yep. [snorts] All good. Thanks. Yeah, we'll we'll we'll throw to um throw to questions from folks who've joined in once we kind of get through our our our stock questions here. Actually, let me take a quick opportunity. So, um uh as we've had some folks joining. So, just a uh a short recap here. We have um uh currently four of our candidates with three more candidates who have not been able to join so far. So um uh we have here uh Matthew Saunders, Darren O, uh Scott Falconer, Jamie Abrahams. Um and we're going through a series of of questions before we uh continue with the community questions as well. I also want to shout out our three additional candidates are uh Burke Borland um who is joining uh from 25 years in the community a lot of local regional advocacy and um is interested in as he says in his candidate statement um bringing together the relationships um between organizations, policy makers and community to work for the entire ecosystem. take the opportunity of using those experience to help build local community wherever it is across the world. Um, another candidate, Chris Kelly, uh, is running to try and move in a quote ideologically neutral direction, uh, to reclaim market share from WordPress and to urge large organizations to donate developers time to the project. Um, and brings that kind of focus. Um and uh the final candidate uh Jana Malakova uh is joining with a specific um goal of earning back popularity among newcomers like students and teachers, rebuilding credibility to te with technical users who may have moved to other systems and focusing and for Drupal's long-term future on the small site builder, small business owners and on foundations around things like documentation. Um, so those are the three candidates you will who you'll also be able to engage with in the asynchronous uh Slack community forum in the Drupal Association channel. Okay. So with that, we're going to continue with our questions here. So uh Scott, I'm going to start with you. Mix up the order. So as a director at large being elected by the community, part of what you're doing is representing the community's voice. So how do you plan to under undertake that? >> Yeah. Um I'll get off mute this time uh to make sure you can actually hear me. Um, you know, we kind of talked on this in the last question. It's like representing the views that are contrary to your own, but part of that is having discussions. You know, I I have don't think I've ever had a conversation with somebody that had a different viewpoint that hasn't changed my viewpoint or at least an understanding of it, right? And I think that's really important. It's more than just potentially representing ideas that are different than yours. It is understanding the perspective and the reasonings and the decisions behind that. And that's part of what I love about Drupal is those discussions, right? There's a there's a there's an issue from 2003 that always comes to mind where it was a discussion about 404 was caused by the favor and I think it went to like a thousand messages where it was in the end decided that Drupal's behavior is correct because of um this is the standard and IE at the time is looking for it in the wrong place. And that really stood out to me because it was like yes is it inoculous? Did we need to talk this much about it? Yes, it it is an important discussion to have and there's a lot of competing viewpoints over something very small like that, right? And we see this again in the conversations around AI, right? the many, you know, let's say exciting conversations that have happened and I haven't come away with any of those without a, you know, a real understanding perspective of, you know, people that are heads into AI or understanding and being confronted with the real uh the realities of this like the things that maintainers have run into like it it it is more than just representing the viewpoints. is really the ability to understand the perspective and then represent those and try to get to an area that uh you know is is the most ideal outcome for all of us in Drupal as a whole. >> Awesome. Thank you. Um Matthew, I'm going to throw this one to you. How do you uh conceive of representing the community's voice? Um and you're muted this time. [laughter] trying to be respectful there and make sure that the noise in my background doesn't uh doesn't affect anybody else. Um so I I think that uh um representing the community always begins with listening systemically especially um to people who are less likely to have access to board members um or folks that are maybe less confident speaking in like public forums. Um, I'd stay visible at camps, conferences, working groups, online spaces. Um, and I'd also create regular opportunities for people to speak with me directly. Last year, um, I was at a whopping 14 uh, events in person. This year, I'm I'm uh, scheduled so far to be at 12. Um and uh and I've been listening during that period of time and I've been engaged in private forums during that period of time to sort of um warm an opinion uh of uh of what's important to the community um already. And to that point, I look I look for patterns and um um often a few loud voices can dominate conversations. So I I think I think you really need to understand whether concerns are isolated. they're widely widely shared. Um or if they affect a particular part of our our global community um and then I would bring these perspectives to the board clearly uh along with context and evidence needed to make uh responsible decisions around um community needs. And I think the final piece of this is closing the loop. Um, and there are times when confidentiality will sometimes limit what what I could share, but I can still tell the community what I'm hearing, uh, what principles are guiding the board, where progress is being made. Um, and and I think that that what that all means is that representation depends on that continuing exchange. People need to know that their input is reaching them uh reaching people in the room and that they're being listened to, that they're they're being given conserious consideration. Uh and and uh um uh that that that would be core to core to the way that I would be behaving. Um and that even that even applies when the final decision isn't the one that necessarily the person that's talked to you has wanted. But I do feel like people need to feel like they've been like they've been heard, like they've been listened to. >> Cool. Thank you, Matthew. Um, let me see. Let me pass that question to let's pass it to Darren this time. Okay. Well, I I agree with uh with Matthew that people need to know what we consider in in our discussions so that they don't think we're that um they're not heard. Uh I also think that to be a voice for the community means not just uh waiting for for people to talk to me but actually investigating um so and finding out what the the people who don't talk are are experiencing. So I am more of a doer than a talker. So, um, I I don't think I I think a two-year term is probably the limit that I would run for because I'm a lot of my voice of the community is going to be based on my experience and in the community before. I'm not expecting to become somebody who's spends all this time talking. I still want to be a doer. >> Understood. Thanks, Darren. Um, and let's see, Jamie, why don't I, if you're available, uh, I know you've got kiddos around and things too, but if you're able to take on the next question as well, what's your viewpoint on representing the community's voice? >> Yeah. So, uh, I think I would like to continue doing a lot of what I've already been doing, um, but more so. So, I think, uh, uh, as part of the Drupal AI initiative, I've tried to get out and and build something where everyone who's involved in it feels like they're getting into it. like there's win-win win-wins. So, we're we're we're building things where our roadmap is aligned with the problems that people are having. And in order to do that, I've spent a lot of time reaching out to kind of as many people in the in the Drupal community who will speak to me, both agency owners, individual devs, contributors, marketeers, project managers, anyone who cares about Drupal. I've been trying to talk to them about the things that they're struggling with, the things their organizations are struggling with, the things they're excited about, what they're doing, and I've been doing a lot to try and coordinate it to get to a place where we can all move together. I've always felt like, you know, if 3D give tries to compete directly with OpenAI or Microsoft or Lang Chain even, uh, and the the big Silicon Valley projects, um, we're not going to work. But when you look at us as a community and where we are like Drupal's everywhere. We're in every government. We're in all the organizations there's people of our community sort of doing real stuff out on the edges. So I feel like together when we when we build something together we could uh we could do something special and we and we have in the dual bay initiative. So I want to keep doing that where I will be reaching out to people all the time uh finding out what they are struggling with and areas I can help using the various hats I have. some of it is over the product direction in innovation of AI initiative and but then you know with the with the board it will be in different spaces. Um I think the other area is that I'm I'm going to try and do regular um um I've been doing trying to do regular like updates on what I've been doing but also kind of do something like an office hours so I'm I'm on Slack a lot talking to people. Uh, I'm actually at Drupal Con of course and all these events talking to people, but I want to try and do something regular where people can talk to me about just what's going on in AI, what's going on in Drupal, what's going on with their um um with their organization to try and learn more about what the people in the community really want, what they're doing, what's cool, what's working, what isn't working. Um, and yeah, I'm I'm hoping a lot of people listening to this will have already spent some time talking to me because I've been trying to get as everywhere. Um, and then I'm also going to be putting a lot of effort to try and get out of the Drupal community a bit and tell other people about us and learn about the community that, you know, isn't necessarily represented inside uh the Drupal uh, you know, meetings that are there, but maybe our users or potential users, etc. >> Thank you, Jamie. I think um, what I'm going to do here is I'm going to do one more round of uh, our prepared questions and I'll save a couple of the others. Um I want to be careful for time and also be able to provide that opportunity for community engagement. So I'll ask our four present present candidates the next question and then I will give the uh live audience members the opportunity to raise their hand and ask some direct questions then as time allows go back to our prepared questions and so on. Just making that space available uh since after all we are responsible to the community. Um so uh Jamie I'm going to do that reverse order thing again. So this one goes back to you first. Um this question is um uh uh a little bit sort of bifurcated. It has sort of two facets to it which is what do you see as the most urgent need facing Drupal versus facing the Drupal association? Um are they the same or different and can can they be solved together or do they need separate attention? So starting with you Jamie. >> Hi. Yes. So I think the most urgent needs uh for those two things are slightly different but I think they overlap a lot. So, I would say the most urgent need for the Drupal Association is the long-term sustainable funding model. Uh, I think we had a period of time where Drupal cons were really great at doing that, but the whole world is finding events not what they used to be. Um, I still think they're as important as they ever were, but they're not necessarily as well attended nor a good source of income. So, I think we need to find out how we can fund the Drupal the Drupal Association and all the work we do. how we can grow the funding to do more because I think we're already seeing recently with um the move to GitLab that it's not as simple as we move to GitLab and now the Drupal Association doesn't have to do anything. It's actually there's just so much more infrastructure that can be done to help with things like the automated testing with like QA processes. So I think the the funding needs of the DA are growing. Um and and I think as I said before I think the Drupal uh product really benefits from this infrastructure from the community from a huge number of extensions and modules that follow the same license. Um many other open source products out there will have a core that is open source but actually all of the things you install alongside it have a sort of semi-proprietary method around it or they're open core or they're fundamentally done by one company. So I think the DA and its infrastructure, what it does is core to why Drupal as a project and as code works, but we need to figure out the funding model. So I've been working on that a bit with the DA generally as I can outside and and that's a big thing that I want I want want to keep doing. And then the core problem I think for the Drupal project is similar to what um Drupal CMS was aiming to solve is the time to value problem. We we know that Drupal is great longterm. We know that it's flexible structure. is fantastic for maintainability, security, configuration management. Um people there's that graph that the longer people use Drupal, the more they like it. But that initial period of time, um getting started in Drupal is not very pleasant. Drupal CMS has done a lot to help that. Um I think AI can also help with that a bit, but fundamentally the time to value I think is the core metric we really want to push in Drupal. And I think we we we are being judged on the time it takes to deliver anything. So I think delivery of projects is a really big thing. We need to just be better at across the board. I think it's it's what when people think about AI, it's less the AI features but more can we just do do things faster? Can we and and that's what everyone's comparing to. So in a Drupal project, I think the time to get value, both the initial time to value being faster, but also the overall time to provide value to people uh is a big thing. And I think the Drupal Association has helped a lot with that. Uh Drupal CMS is partly code, but it's also it's a place on Drupal.org. It's the trial experience. It's uh figuring out what people need. So I think these things overlap a great deal. And so I think there will be a great benefit in having a Drupalwide strategic um uh document goal aims that we can all look at and each different thing the core Drupal project AI initiative Drupal CMS uh the infrastructure stuff the the modules everything can have their own approach to this but I think actually we have a similar thing in mind. uh time to value is a big reason why more funding will come in and a lot of the things that provide time to value I think also have the opportunity to sell like we've seen that with site templates being able to sell things that these things are linked that's what I'd say >> thanks Jamie appreciate that very much let me see if I can remember my own changes in order um I think it's I think it's Darren then Matthew then Scott so um let's go with that so Darren what do you see as the most urgent need facing Drupal versus facing the associ ation whether those can be solved together or need separate attention. >> All right. Well, the most urgent need facing Drupal um is to well the problem is um people give up on Drupal not just because their first experience is uh difficult but [clears throat] because when issues are brought up fixes are contributed that deal with the um the issues that new users experience, they go into they get debated endlessly sometimes and and the and we don't actually people give up and think that Drupal is not going to change. So we need to have a a better culture for um where we're we're actually facilitating rather than blocking fixes. I think it's I think it's happening. I just think uh the tradition of of debating things endlessly has um is still uh sticking to us. uh the Drupal association. Yeah, we a sustainable funding model is uh is the is its [clears throat] main problem and uh one that I uh I I think uh yeah if people are giving up on Drupal that's uh not not going to be solved but uh if uh so we can solve those things together um improving the the user the new user experience um also um finding more sustainable funding sources so that when people uh adopt Drupal that they that they continue to support the the Drupal association financially. It's would be the the priority there. >> Awesome. Thank you Darren. Uh so Matthew, same question to you. Yeah. So, um I think that uh Drupal's most urgent need is continued relevance during a period of rapid technological change. Uh we've all seen how how um utilization of Drupal has uh decreased um since uh since uh the adoption of Drupal 8. And uh there's no no no reason to litigate the reasons for that uh during this conversation. But um I think we need to turn that around and a good part of that has uh has stemmed in in utilization of uh you know creation of Drupal CMS and uh and Drupal AI has uh has proven to be a also a uh an excellent tool in I think in in turning this uh this around. AI is changing how people create and manage their digital experiences. And I think that Drupal needs to remain useful, accessible um and compelling to organizations uh and people who are choosing technology today. Um, as for the association, I agree funding uh a sustainable funding model is is is critical that there there are too few um streams of revenue that uh that are coming into the into the uh into the into the association and those streams of revenue are too fragile. But I believe that the root always is going to come back to trust. Um and association like I said earlier association decisions have made left parts of the community wondering whether our stated values are actually being reflected in practice. So I think for the Drupal association the most urgent need is strengthening the trust uh trust within the community again. Um I think without trust we're going to be challenged with any kind of fundraising. people need to know that they that we're we're reflecting their values in order to have their organizations or personally um commit money. Uh people don't commit money to organizations that don't reflect their values. So I think the association again I'm going to go back to an earlier earlier statement needs to demonstrate that it listens carefully. It communicates transparently. It includes affected communities in its thinking. It makes decisions that reflects Drupal's values. Um and I see that personally as constructive governance work, right? Building better ways of listening. Um understanding the effects of our decisions and explaining principles behind them. Um these are deeply connected needs. Uh technical progress requires people to contribute. Organizations trust uh and to invest. Um the community needs to believe that the in the institution supporting the project and if that trust is weak even a strong technical strategy will struggle to attract energy and the support it needs. The project needs to continue leading the uh Drupal's technical direction and the association needs to create conditions for that work to succeed by rebuilding trust, providing stable support and and um bringing the community together around a shared vision around a shared uh future. That's what I think. >> Awesome. Thank you, Matthew. Um Scott to you. um urgent needs for Drupal versus the association and where they overlap, where they need that separate attention. >> To me, they're both exactly the same. It is growth and adoption of Drupal. Everything [clears throat] that comes next depends on if we are in a period of sustained decline or sustained growth with momentum. Right? We are at a junction point right now. Uh I don't know if the biggest Ripple con is ahead of us or behind us. I want it to be ahead of us. Right? We also with the change and the rapid change of course there's a lot of risk but this is a generational opportunity like this is it could be looking back one of the fundamental times of what Drupal became and everything before it was small based on what came next right so it is our opportunity to take and that is all dependent on growth and more people using Drupal and more people in the community once they're there that's how we instill our values that's how we get funding but it all depends on more people and more users showing Awesome. Very concise, Scott. Um, so with that, I do want to give the opportunity for some community questions. Uh, I may pivot back to some of our prepared questions depending on how much volume we have, but if you'd use the raise hand button, um, I can call on you in the audience if you have something you'd like to ask the candidates and I'll give each candidate a chance to answer in turn. If you happen to have a specific question for a candidate based on their candidate statements, um, that's fine, too. Let me give this a minute as people are thinking about this and otherwise I'll continue with our prepared questions. Just as a reminder for the recording, um there will be a um 24-hour asynchronous uh engagement period with the candidates in the hash Drupal association channel in the Drupal Slack. Um and I'm sure you can uh engage with candidates individually as they are available. Um, and you'll have a chance also to speak to the additional candidates running uh during that asynchronous period. Bert Orland, Chris Kelly, and Jana Malikova. Okay, I think I'm going to continue with our questions. Uh, hopefully that means [clears throat] hopefully what that means is that uh is that folks uh like the questions that we've prepared and are hearing the answers or the the kinds of questions and the kinds of answers they want to hear. Um, so my next question, and I'll figure out an order for this, but it's going to be, how would you measure your own success as a board member at the end of your term, and what impact would you hope to have made um in that period? So, let's see here if I'm going to mix things up again. I think Jamie is who I will go to. Let's do that. >> Yeah, I think he's linked to the things I said before to do with funding. uh and um and the the strategic games. So I think um if if I can help do things that mean that we increase the value directly that Drupal.org offers, not just Drupal as a project, but Drupal.org itself such that um people really want to fund it. Uh um I'm really loving this thing Aqua doing with the with the fair trade thing. I really like that as a um a funding source that is not like tied to very specific things. I think I worry about a lot of funding models uh mean that you have to generate a lot of work which you have to pay for sort of really fund the project. It just funds doing that thing. So I've loved the fair trade stuff and I think there's some other models that we can do um you know maybe bundling things etc that uh we can do that would be more sustainable. So I think a big thing for me is a Drupal association and the Drupal.org or itself providing value for people in a way that they would want to pay uh for something is uh is is a big thing that you know if I get to the end of my term and we have more of those coming in that would be really great. Um there's some other ways in which I think the Drupal Association is a really great place to like directly generate leads go out to speak to organizations to advocate for Drupal. So there's some other areas I think that we can do to push for for funding. Um and then I think uh yeah this this this other area like yeah definitely the stuff to do with adoption is very important. So can we do more with at the moment obviously I've got my AI hat on more now but with AI can we do a lot more to make it so that as part of this new world of AI uh people are are seeing that Drupal is the best CMS for your agency to use and adoption is going high. We want to see all those graphs go up and none of this um business about Drupal's falling off. I mean, we already see it's not it's growing, but let's uh I want to see that accelerate. So, those two things are the areas that um I'd love to see. I'd love to see I suppose yeah, a more cohesive vision. You know, I'd really like it if we could pinpoint what it is the Drupal vision is to get there. Scott said a lot of stuff to a growth. I'd love it if there was something simple, a few paragraphs that could say, "This is what we're doing in Drupal." most people are on board. They got different ideas of how we get there. But it would be really good if we knew some way we could just explain what Drupal is, why it's great, and what we're doing uh to this world um and have some cohesion across all the different factions and areas of Drupal. So, I think that'd be the area that I would measure my own impact is if I could help in any way achieve that. >> Thanks, Jamie. Um just mixing things up, Scott, I'm going to bounce back your way. >> Perfect. >> How would you measure your success? twice as many Drupal sites in production on the day my term ends as when I started, right? And I I know I would likely fail, but it is the overriding guiding thing, and I do think there's a possibility that we could hit it. >> So, it would just purely be that. >> Oh, very straightforward. All right. Thank you, Scott. Um, Darren, how about you? What impact would you hope to have made? What's your measure of success for yourself as a board member? Well, what's great about Drupal is the good work that's gone into it and getting that work to more people. Um, I don't really care whether it's Drupal or WordPress. If really, if we use if WordPress used Drupal and our work is getting out to more people, that would be [clears throat] great. Um, so the Drupal Association is about getting our our work out to more people. And so I want to I would want to see more people uh becoming members of drupal.org. Um so because that represents people who are aware of our work and and u and [clears throat] under understand it and yeah I also want to see the the number of Drupal sites increase. >> Cool. Thank you Darren. uh Matthew to you um what's your uh measure of success uh as a board member for the end of your term and what impact would you hope to have made? >> Sure. So I think it's important to remember that board work is a collective, right? Um so I would be measuring success by what became stronger during my term uh rather than attaching my name to a particular initiative. Um and I would start by asking three questions. First, is the Drupal Association more financially resilient um and uh a clearer long-term plan with less dependency on a narrow set of revenue sources? My second question would be, has the relationship between the association and the community improved? We should be able to measure whether people are heard, feel heard, understand how decisions are made, um and trust the association to act in Drupal's decision interests. Um and the third would be have we created stronger paths for new contributors and leaders particularly people from regions and communities that have been un underrepresentative. Um so I'd hope um to leave behind durable systems for listening, communication, succession and financial stewardship. Um, so I feel like my term would be successful if the association were healthier, the commun community had greater confidence in it, and the next group of leaders had a stronger foundation than the one that I started with when I started the term. >> Thank you, Matthew. Um, we do have one community question that's come in, which is, um, we'd like to know if candidates have examples of a past situation where you're able to advocate for and impact, uh, change, significant change at a board level or at an equivalent level of of um, kind of leadership. Uh, and it can be it can be an outside Drupal, outside open source example, I think. But the the question is, can you can you provide an example of this sort of of advocacy and impact uh that you've brought to um a leadership group? Um I'm going to do our order runaround again. So um uh Matthew, I'll go back to you. >> Sure. I can uh point two two um uh major things both inside the Drupal community and outside the Drupal community. Um, so when I uh originally came onto the Drupal board of uh of directors, uh gosh, 13 or 14 years ago, um there was one community member who had one one-year term. >> Um what that effectively meant was um you got in and barely by the time you um got your legs under you, your term was done. Um and when I came into the that role, I said to the existing board, this is lip service. Um and um I already have board board experience outside of the Drupal community and I have one goal. Um and that goal is to increase the length of terms and increase the number of uh voices in the community. Um and um um the board was nice enough to put me on that initiative and I worked through the through the uh through the through the work that needed to be done, changed the policies, the policies were voted on and that's the reason that we have the system that we have today. I think that's a pretty significant uh uh uh impact. Um a second um is I was on the board of directors for uh for a charter school in the United States. the charter school was being was being mistreated uh by the overall school board um in in in a variety of different ways. Charter schools often are because they work differently than than the traditional school schools within the uh within the school district. Um, and I helped I helped um shepherd the uh the charter school out of the uh of the uh um the overall school school board system and into its own own individual uh individual entity. Um uh which uh which event which uh created the the circumstances in which they could um increase their their own funding. Um and they are currently apparently building a second building right now. Um, and all of that can be tied back to us severing our relationship with the uh with the uh with the actual school district and uh and going out on our own. Um, so those are two areas where I' where I feel like I've made significant impact and I'm very proud of. >> Thank you. Um, let me see here. I'm going to go to Jamie. Areas where [clears throat] you felt you've had impact at this at this level. >> Yeah, I think I'll have to rush off after this one. Um, yeah. Yeah. So I think I you know I deliberated on putting myself forward for this because obviously the the way that I am presenting myself aboard is like a little bit different to some others um where I am newer, younger uh in terms of like you know new to this kind of like this particular you know this kind of world. Um what I've done most of the time is I've worked with other people who are board level at various things and a lot of the time it's actually been with David Lynch. So David has been part of the AI initiative and he's going to be on the board of that and I'm going to be on the AI leadership team. Um and um David was involved um me well me and David were involved in a number of um uh stuff in the kind of church world where we we started building tech for and uh there were some some pretty uh wild things that would happen there and some difficult decisions had to be made. So I was sort of part of it but I was always sort of there as a helper for someone like David. And similarly with the Drupal AAI uh with the Drupal association board almost everyone on that board a lot of people I've tried to work closely with and support them. So I've taken this role of sort of supporting board members and helping them and help write these documents etc. So I'm putting forward myself here particularly for the at large position mainly because I think the thing I provide is this like connection and conduit to the community that David is very good as a board member. I really like what he's doing in the AI initiative, but he's not as visible in a community as I am. He doesn't have the time to go out to all of these events. Uh nor necessarily the the knowledge to have the hourong multiple, you know, complicated long dayong arguments and discussions about AI that I have. So, I'm I'm putting myself for the at large position partly because I think I'll be really great representing the community more so than the the pure board related skills that I uh I have the experience for. Um, >> cool. Thanks, Amy. >> I would say argue that what I've done with the day initiative is somewhat and answer the question of like helping create something like that that can govern a lot of areas of lots of developers, etc. So, I suppose the Drupal Air initiative itself is an example of something I think I've done has been like board level. >> Awesome. Thanks, Jamie. Um, Scott, let me go to you. Can you speak to impact at this sort of leadership level uh that you've had in the past that you can you can draw on? >> There's yes there's a recent example of that where you know within Aquia we really wanted to figure out ways to fund um others in the community that were not from Aqua right and that usually is easiest with direct financial contributions. So we have to convince the leadership at Aqua and the board of Aqua itself like hey we want to give money to somebody that you may look at as a competitor. They work for a different company or this may not directly strategically align in a very clear way uh to what Aqua needs right now. And so examples of that are things like the MCP server, right? There's a bunch of different options for doing MCP. One of the areas that we see WordPress, you know, on paper pulling ahead is they have an MCP in there, right? So convincing the Aqua board that hey we need some funding that we're going to give to this person that does not work at Aqua to do work that is not for Aqua it is just for Drupal and we have since been able to do things like that in a for multilingual and other areas where there's a contributor in the community that we know they are the best person to do this and we want to make it possible. So, it's just areas like that where dealing with large enterprise organizations and boards at that level to try to get them to do the things that we want to be done for Drupal um are tricky semi-political conversations, but we can get it done with the right, you know, consultation. So, that's what I think I'd be able to bring. >> Awesome. Thank you. Um, let me ask this question to uh Darren next. And I see we got a couple of our other candidates, so I'm going to actually keep going here. and um uh ask them some of our questions as well. Um and those who are available to stay can stay. Those who need to hop can hop. But we'll continue this for the sake of the recording and so that we can present to the community to keep following up afterwards. But first Darren, let me turn back to you on this particular question uh which again is is there a sort of an example that you can give of having an impact on a a leadership level at a scale that's similar to advocacy to the board? Oh, that's my style is more to ally myself with somebody who's already doing something um that I that I can champion. So, I can't really take credit for for changes because usually they're they're changes that somebody else was was advocating and I just joined in to to champion them. Um my I have uh a lot of that has been at at my church here here in Florida. But uh I guess the best example in the Drupal uh or world would be uh Drupal Forge which happened totally from advocacy um getting getting people together who who would u who saw a a similar vision and uh and we found the people to to make it happen. So that was uh that's awesome. >> Be my best bet. >> Oh, and then including that getting that included into other initiatives like like the AI initiative and um and the Drupal CMS um initiative. Um again, an example of how I just find something that's already good and just ally with that. >> Awesome. Um fantastic. So, um, with that again, if some people need to drop and others can stay, you're more than welcome to. I'm going to, um, turn with some questions for, uh, for Chris and for Helga, um, to, uh, uh, speak to, um, some of the things we've been talking about so far and to also to sort of introduce yourselves. Again, for the sake of the recording, um, this is our open community forum. We have some uh standard questions for everyone and uh the opportunity for folks to ask additional questions in chat or use the raise hand feature to ask a question either of the group or of individual candidates. Um and certainly um uh we encourage that. So I'm going to keep going. Let's start. Um Helga and I apologize if you're not if I'm not pronouncing your name quite right. Uh, but please give us a a 30 second introduction, your history in Drupal, and why you personally felt it was important to run for the board. >> Nope. And you are on mute. Sorry. >> Yes, I unmuted myself. >> Uh, yes. Uh, 30 seconds quickly about me. Yes. My name is Helen. I'm from Norway. Live in Bergen, southern Norway. Now I'm on holiday in northern Norway where the weather is shitty. [clears throat] I've been working with Drupal for about 20 years. Uh mostly not uh as involved in the community but we have been doing community stuff in Bergen where we have a Drupal PHP group which has been running for almost 10 years 10 years next year. um and have an history of being an organizer in community stuff not Drupal but as a student and other organizations. So uh I felt it was time for me to contribute more to Drupal and especially my main focus and goal is to work towards getting new people into Drupal and PHP as well of course. Um, yeah. And I have a pizza oven that I built myself at home, but probably not relevant. >> Still a good introduction. We we we we like to hear it. >> Awesome. Um, >> uh, Chris, let me give you the opportunity. Um, please, would you give a a a short introduction about your history in Drupal and why you personally felt it was important to run for the board. And you are currently on mute. There we go. Actually, I see that you're off mute, Chris, but I'm not hearing your audio. Uh, yeah, for some reason. Oh, go ahead. Um, I'm not sure whether this is working or not, but Chris, um, at the moment we can't hear your audio. So, if you do need to change audio devices in Zoom or do a drop and reconnect, that's absolutely fine. And of course, you're also welcome to just participate in the asynchronous Slack conversation, which will uh kick off for 24 hours tomorrow for people to ask questions there as well. But I'll come back to you again to um to check in. Um but uh let me let me continue with another question here. And um this is one that's uh all of our candidates uh including our new ones can can ask. And I'll also go back to some that we we asked earlier on the call um for Helga and Chris too. But um starting with you Helga, how do you think about the difference between the Drupal Association's role and the Drupal project or projects leadership's role? Um >> uh um I I think the the Drupal project as such is much more code oriented and I think the Drupal association need to to focus on on the social aspect of it to to be extremely simple about it in my opinion. Mhm. Okay. Very good. Chris, I think shall we try again and see if the audio is working right now? I'm still not hearing anything. Oh, I almost heard something, but it was Sorry. I'm afraid it's still not working, but but do what you need to and I'll try and come back to you if we can. Um, let me let me pass that question around in the meantime to some of our other uh candidates. It's related to a question we we asked earlier. I see your message, Chris. We'll we'll try and swing back to you if we can. Um, but Darren, you know, this was related to our our earlier question about what are the urgent needs facing the respective organizations, but how do you personally think about the differences between the association and the project? Well, Helga said it perfectly that the project is about the work that [clears throat] has been done and the association is about the people. I I would also say the product Drupal is what has h is the past. You know, it's what the work that's been done in the past that we can use now. The Drupal association is about making sure that work continues in the future so that we have uh things to use in added on to that in the future. Cool. Thank you, Darren. Um, Matthew, why don't I pass to you if you have time to stick with us as well. Same question like how do you conceptualize the sort of fundamental difference between um the association and the project and their and their respective roles. >> Yeah. I mean the project itself is like the software and uh and the global community that builds, maintains, governs and uses it, right? Um and I think that uh direction of that is earned through contribution. Um it's shaped by maintainers. It's uh initiative leads and contributors working through the project's established processes. The Drupal Association is just one institution within that larger ecosystem. Um to me its role is to create the conditions in which the project and community and the community can thrive. That includes doing things like maintaining the essential infrastructure, convening people through events, promoting Drupal, raising and managing funds, supporting contributors, and providing organizational continuity. I think that the distinction is important because the association shouldn't attempt to control the project's technical direction or treat the community as just one of its programs. think that it's uh its job is steward stewardship and support. Um that said those two things can't operate in isolation right like the association needs to understand what the project and community require and the project benefits from having a stable organization capable of of providing resources, visibility, long-term support. um that healthy relationship depends on clear roles, continuing communication, and again what I've been talking about throughout this whole conversation, mutual trust. >> Awesome. Thanks, Matthew. Um, Helga, I'm going to ask you a question. Um, which is, um, what do you see, and this is this is related to the previous question. Um, what do you see as the most urgent need facing Drupal and the most urgent need facing the association and whether those two things have to be solved together or need separate attention? >> [clears throat] >> Well, the the urgent need uh again it's the same thing as as I said previous is that that we need more younger developers. uh as someone who has worked with Drupal for a long time, I'm seeing that we are not getting the the the kids to join us uh as as we used to and and we may need to to make Drupal more accessible for them but also more interesting as a a community and and and see what more can we do for them. Um that that's my my primary concern. The secondary is uh Drupal branding uh as such and Drupal marketing. Uh we are not essentially uh well I'm talking from a Norwegian Scandinavian perspective and and there Drupal is not as visible as I would have wanted it to be. it's uh as one who has has been selling Drupal solutions uh the it's it's always hard to to do that and and especially in Norway Scandinavia it's also a kind of an open space for for us to to to be the leaders in opensource programming which is well I'm I'm a big fan >> awesome So that's my my two main things. >> Chris, let's give this another shot. See if your audio might be working. >> Uh yeah. Can you hear me? >> Yes, we can hear you. Wonderful. >> Okay. Okay. So, uh I've also uh been in Drupal for almost 20 years and uh I've contributed some modules and even a little bit of code to core. And I um I'm the author of a uh you know attempts to uh make Drupal easier to use like a a tool that lets uh people run composer commands without having to use the command line and an improve a suggested improvement to the permissions pages to make them easier to understand. >> Awesome. And and can I ask you know what what did you feel was the what what called you to running for the board um and and why are you standing as a candidate uh today? >> Make it more usable for more people. So, uh, to kind of bring, uh, kind of cut into the WordPress market. >> Cool. And then, um, Chris, let me direct a question to you, um, which is, um, you know, what do you see as the most urgent need that's facing Drupal versus facing the Drupal association? And do you think those needs are different or the same? And can they be solved together or do they need separate attention? uh we'd like to get your your point of view. >> I think Drupal needs uh lower end users not uh I think it can't rely on uh big corporations and governments. it it needs uh you know uh smaller uh users like small business or professionals uh like WordPress has and um that would actually help the association because uh that more users would result in more funding. >> Cool. Thank you, Chris. And then I'm going to ask you one more and then pitch that same question to to Helga. I want to make sure you all have some some of the air time for this. So, Chris, first to you. Um, you know, a nonprofit board usually has two primary governing duties. A duty of loyalty to the organization and a duty of care to making the best decisions that you can. Um, and uh, uh, Matthew as another candidate also mentioned a very common one as well is a duty of obedience to support the mission of the org. would love to know like how do you think about the duties of loyalty and care or the duty of obedience and how do you conceptualize what those mean um and um you know what you would challenge and all of those sorts of things. So Chris first to you and then to Helga. Yeah, you know, I mean, I'm consistent with the I'm in line with the the mission of the Drupal Association, although I wouldn't um be a rubber stamp if that's uh if that's the the subtext of the question. >> So, if you want to expand on that, I think that would be great. I think that that >> I I [clears throat] push what's best for the association and Drupal in my opinion, [clears throat] which I think is fairly accurate. It wouldn't involve um any sort of favoritism or anything like that. >> All right. Thank you, Chris. And to to Helga, same for you. What's what's your conception of of the the duties of a board member? Duty of loyalty, of care, of obedience, like how do you think about those things? And um what would you be your approach to them you know sort of within the board meeting or outside of a board meeting? [snorts] >> Oh both within a board meeting and with outside of course we we have to to listen to the members and and hear what they have to say and and uh and be a voice for them. That being said that I'm I'm I'm not against them. Uh but but of course I will bring my intuitions and and my feelings and my background to to bear on on what I say, of course. But u well yes, I I will uh hear what they say and and try to to represent them as best as as I can. >> Awesome. Thank you, Helga. Uh, I'd like to remind the the remaining folks in the live audience, if you want to throw in a question, you can drop it in the chat, you can raise a hand um and we can direct that question to the folks who are currently on the group or um uh wherever wherever need be. And of course, we'll have the asynchronous Q&A in the Drupal Association Slack starting tomorrow about running for about 24 hours as well. So, that's an option, too. Um, with that, I think I'll ask a last question of of Chris and Helga. Um and then we'll sort of wrap up for now and and move on to the async. But um Helga, let me start with you this time. Um what would you do or how would you think about measuring your personal success as a board member at the end of the two-year term if you were elected? What what's the impact you hope you would have made? Well, first of all, I I would hope that it has an effect on on uh well, I forgot to mention that, but yeah, I I've been lobbying fairly hard for getting Drupal adopted in Norwegian governments >> and uh but it's it's hard to measure success uh as a board member, but uh well, yes, do do I get a a an issue true or or not uh as such but uh but but I'm I'm fairly high on the community thing that that if I feel that I have impacted the community in a way that that we are uh kind of the the intangible values about it's it's about people and knowing more people honestly it's it's I'm as basic as that I just like people. >> Awesome. Thank you, Helga. So, Chris uh to you the last question here. Um uh this is uh the same question really actually. Let's let's go with that. So, how how would you feel how do you what does success look like for you after at the end of the two-year term? What impact do you hope you have have had on the [clears throat] board if you were to be elected? >> Yeah. Well, success would mean that there'd be many more users and many more developers. Uh, and some of those developers would be from uh governments and other large organizations that are currently uh to use a term mooching off Drupal in that they I mean I'm working for one right now uh that um they aren't really giving back. I I'm giving back somewhat, but uh they aren't really as a whole. They don't have a policy to give back. So, I would try to push to get policies to give back in developer time uh as part of government contracts and uh uh maybe some sort of a government resolution or some sort of an industry effort. Uh and uh so that would because there there are issues that have been languishing for years. I mean I keep seeing issues that are like almost a decade old. So uh it it would be good to get help with that. And I don't think donating money is the way to do it. I think the way to do it is to have them donate some developer time. So that would be a sign of success. And another sign of success would be if installing Drupal and maintaining it is almost as easy as doing it with doing the same with WordPress. So if there's a way that uh some guy can just spin up a a a Drupal site as easy as they can I mean WordPress has an infamous five minute install or whatever they call it. So if there was something like that for Drupal, more people would use it. So that's basically it. >> Thank you, Chris. So thank you to all of the candidates who've attended um have been able to join at various times. Thank you very much to the audience who's joined live and to everybody who is listening to this recording. We really appreciate and rely on your engagement as the electorate to help um select the candidate who will res represent your voice best on the board um and can help drive the future of the Drupal Association and its role in the future of Drupal. So, particular thanks to each of our candidates, Scott Falconer, Jamie Abraham, Bert Borland, Chris Kelly, Darren O, uh, Jana Malikova, uh, Helenoto, and Matthew Saunders for your, uh, participation and for your putting putting yourselves forward to what can be a very challenging challenging role to try and have these impacts on the community. So, want to thank you very much for your participation. Uh again, um I've said it several times throughout the recording to try and catch people who are skipping through, but there will be an asynchronous Slack conversation where you can ask questions of the candidates. Uh in the Drupal Association Slack channel on the Drupal Slack, um there is a link to candidate statements on the Drupal Association blog. That's drupal.org/association/blog where you can check out those statements. and we'll be posting a uh summary of this conversation and the recording for people to follow along. So, thank you again again everyone. We wish you well and um uh yeah, we'll talk to you again throughout the election. Bye-bye all. >> Thanks, guys. Thanks.